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SOCIALISM is the tag line of a bizarre new campaign against President Obama. The word "Socialism" appears across an image portraying President Obama as Heath Ledger's Joker in last year's The Dark Knight. The Obama/Joker mash-ups have appeared on posters in Los Angeles, have gone viral on the Internet, and are available as t-shirts, mugs, and other political swag.
It seems that some elements of America's fringe Right have become embarrassingly Freudian. This is a clear cut case of projection. The Right is the Joker, not President Obama.
Heath Ledger's edgy, dark portrayal of the Joker was remarkable and disturbing precisely because it was rooted in irresistible chaos, not in tight control. If Obama's critics are trying to claim he is a big-government loving, bureaucracy building, state-control planning mastermind then they could not have chosen a worse image than Ledger's Joker.
Joker's evil is banal, random, gleeful and almost effortless. "Do I really look like a guy with a plan?" he asks.
If the current political moment were mapped onto The Dark Knight script, it would be the right wing fringe of the GOP cast as the chaos-inducing Joker.
Conservative tactics of social divisiveness feel distinctly Joker-like. Elected Republicans and conservative talk show personalities like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck used the Sotomayor hearings and President Obama's response to the Dr. Henry Louis Gates' arrest to claim reverse racism, stoke racial anxiety, and suggest that some citizens are more worthy than others.
In the film Joker rigs two ferries with bombs. One carrying ordinary citizens, the other carrying convicted criminals. Joker offers a terrible choice,
"Each of you has a remote... to blow up the other boat. At midnight, I blow you all up. If, however, one of you presses the button, I'll let that boat live. So, who's it going to be: Harvey Dent's most wanted scumbag collection, or the sweet and innocent civilians? You choose... oh, and you might want to decide quickly, because the people on the other boat might not be so noble."
By encouraging Americans to nurture fears of racial and ethnic competition, the Right similarly asks us to blow up one another. They ask citizens to see themselves as more worthy than their neighbor and to destroy others for the sake of self-preservation.
The Birther movement of the right wing is distinctly Joker-like in its sheer madness. By repeating their baseless claims, the Birther movement has managed to convince a sizeable portion of Southern, white Americans that President Obama may not have been born in the United States. As the bizarre strategy makes inroads into Americans' consciousness one can almost see some Birther leaders clapping their hands with the child-like mania of Ledger's Joker.
Nothing has been more reminiscent of Ledger's Joker than the current strategy of massive disruption at health care reform town hall meetings. The Joker blew up a hospital. The GOP is hoping to explode the effort for health care reform.
Our nation faces a crisis in health care. The massive economic downturn and rising unemployment make the limitations of employer provided health insurance clearer than ever. There is legitimate and reasonable disagreement on how we should address this problem. As legislators return home for the August break, town hall meetings are one forum for airing these disagreements and discussing alternatives.
Rather than organize Republican citizens to engage in thoughtful debate about an important political issue, GOP elected officials are supporting tactics of disruption and disturbance promoted by the insurance lobby. Their goal is to shut down conversation, confuse voters, and rattle members of Congress. To quote the Joker, "Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos."
The Dark Knight metaphor is completed by Blue Dog Democrats. Like the film's young politico Harvey Dent, they are turned by the Joker's chaos tactics into two-faced madmen wiling to leave the nation's future to chance.
Here the comic book ends. Unlike the Joker, the Right has goals beyond simple destruction. The GOP wants to win back Congressional seats and retake the White House. Rather than offer substantive alternatives, they are willing to flirt with the destructive forces of reckless chaos.
Americans cannot simply hope that a super hero is waiting to respond to the nation's distress signal. We will have to save ourselves. We can and must embrace the messy work of democracy and disagreement without descending into the destruction of meaningless chaos.
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"Here the comic book ends. Unlike the Joker, the Right has goals beyond simple destruction. The GOP wants to win back Congressional seats and retake the White House."
--How dare politicians try to win elections!
"Rather than offer substantive alternatives, they are willing to flirt with the destructive forces of reckless chaos."
--"destructive forces or reckless chaos"? what does that mean exactly?
"Americans cannot simply hope that a super hero is waiting to respond to the nation's distress signal. We will have to save ourselves. We can and must embrace the messy work of democracy and disagreement without descending into the destruction of meaningless chaos."
--why "meaningless chaos" to end the last paragraph but "reckless chaos" to end the penultimate paragraph? What's the difference between "reckless" and "meaningless" here? Or is it too chaotic to explain?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/04/2009 @ 11:53pm
The only thing 'bizarre' here is this odd piece. First Ms. Harris-Lacewell points out that elements on what she calls the 'fringe Right' are using silly and divisive tactics. This is - obviously - true. But then she slyly shifts the focus to the conservative movement and the GOP as a whole, failing to make the distinction between irrational people doing the wrong thing for bad reasons and rational people doing the wrong thing for good reasons.
Although much of what conservatives have had to say on the current health care debate is pretty absurd, declaring that they support 'chaos' and wish to see the nation's health care system destroyed is a reckless charge. Not only is this clearly not true, rhetoric like this feeds the exact same monster that Ms. Harris-Lacewell seems so concerned about; it helps to shut down debate on a very important bill.
Conservatives and the GOP should be challenged when they offer alternative plans, but their ideas should be taken seriously. They aren't evil. They don't hate the country. They don't want to create a health care system that serves a privileged few. Responding to a silly caricature propagated by a relative fringe with a silly caricature helps no one.
As far as I'm concerned, the Joker asked the wrong question. We aren't serious enough.
Posted by liberalcorner at 08/04/2009 @ 11:59pm
"Joker's evil is banal, random, gleeful and almost effortless. "Do I really look like a guy with a plan?" he asks."
Well, at least they have the Obamanation that makes desolation accurately chractorized! But, hey what is with the "WHITE FACE" crap? Are they referring to his overt racism against white people that he shares with his professor of black studies racist friend from harvard?
Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 12:19am
The "mainstream" of the Republican party become implicated when they not only don't quell the fringe crazies, but actively use said crazies to serve their own agenda. And is Limbaugh a fringe or a mainstream?
Any accusation that ANYONE on the left is somehow lowering the discourse is ludicrous. To do that you'd have to get below the Republicans, which would require a backhoe.
Posted by SCAmis at 08/05/2009 @ 12:30am
The Nation's mission statement in the year of its founding (1865): "The Nation will not be the organ of any party, sect, or body. It will, on the contrary, make an earnest effort to bring to the discussion of political and social questions a really critical spirit, and to wage war upon the vices of violence, exaggeration and misrepresentation by which so much of the political writing of the day is marred."
--Isn't it arguable that Melissa Harris-Lacewell, when she employs an extended Joker analogy against political opponents and uses such phrases as "reckless chaos" and "meaningless chaos" (without explaining them) is actually contributing to, rather than waging war against, the "vices of...exaggeration and misrepresentation by which so much of the political writing of the day is marred"?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:34am
qwiki mania!
The Joker's use is greatly varied. Many card games omit the card from use entirely; others, such as a 25-card variant of Euchre, make it one of the most important in the game. Often, the joker is a wildcard, and thereby allowed to represent other existing cards. The term "Joker's Wild" originates from this practice, as does the game show of the same name.
The Joker can be an extremely beneficial, or an extremely harmful, card. In Euchre it is often used to represent Benny, the highest trump. In poker, it is wild. However, in the children's game named Old Maid, a solitary joker represents the Maid, a card that is to be avoided.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 12:38am
qwiki mania!
The Joker is usually depicted as a court jester. There are usually two Jokers per deck, and both cards often have noticeable differences between each other. For instance, Bicycle Playing Cards prints their company's guarantee claim on only one. More common traits are the appearance of colored and black/noncolored Jokers. At times, the Jokers will each be colored to match the colors used for suits; there will be a red Joker, and a black Joker. In games where the jokers may need to be compared, the red or full-color joker usually outranks the black-and-white one, and so on with the guaranteed one. With the red/black jokers, the red one can alternately be counted as a heart/diamond and the black is used to substitute clubs/spades.
In the USA-Produced Bicycle brand of playing cards, The Joker sometimes bears an S superimposed over a U as its index symbol. This is a trademark of the U.S. Playing Card Company. In Canada, the US monogram is replaced by a star*.
In Australia, the Joker in the Queen's Slipper brand of playing cards depicts a Kookaburra, a bird native to Australia with a call which resembles human laughter. In Australian games of 500, the Joker is often referred to colloquially as 'The Bird'.
Most other decks simply use a stylized "J" or the word "JOKER" in the corner index.
*as all good socialist will.....
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 12:41am
"rhetoric like this feeds the exact same monster that Ms. Harris-Lacewell seems so concerned about; it helps to shut down debate on a very important bill. "
There is not debate about how to best fix the problem, the debate is between people who want to fix the problem and people who don't.
You could see that watching the three committee mark-up meetings in the house. Time after time republicans and blue dogs introduced poison pill amendments and offered very little that was constructive.
The same is true in town hall meetings around the country. People opposing it are trying to stifle the debate, as opposed to participating in it.
Our healtcare system is broken in a nuber of ways - you can be dropped, red-flagged after paying your premium for years just when you need surgery, you can be denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions, you can lose you coverage b/c the nsurance company does not find your group profitable enough, you can lose your job thereby lose your coverage, and you can be uninsurable. 47 million americans are not insured. they go to the ER in emergencoes, everyone who pays for health insurance pays for their coverage. If we get reform, try reform with a national public option (not co-ops) every with be covered and everyone who has private insurance will see their rate drop.
Posted by NeilSagan at 08/05/2009 @ 12:44am
Our nation faces a crisis in health care. The massive economic downturn and rising unemployment make the limitations of employer provided health insurance clearer than ever.
••
well,
timmy geithner sure looks a lot like the riddler.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 12:44am
"rhetoric like this feeds the exact same monster that Ms. Harris-Lacewell seems so concerned about; it helps to shut down debate on a very important bill. "
There is not debate about how to best fix the problem, the debate is between people who want to fix the problem and people who don't.
You could see that watching the three committee mark-up meetings in the house. Time after time republicans and blue dogs introduced poison pill amendments and offered very little that was constructive.
The same is true in town hall meetings around the country. People opposing it are trying to stifle the debate, as opposed to participating in it.
Our healtcare system is broken in a nuber of ways - you can be dropped, red-flagged after paying your premium for years just when you need surgery, you can be denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions, you can lose you coverage b/c the nsurance company does not find your group profitable enough, you can lose your job thereby lose your coverage, and you can be uninsurable. 47 million americans are not insured. they go to the ER in emergencoes, everyone who pays for health insurance pays for their coverage. If we get reform, try reform with a national public option (not co-ops) every with be covered and everyone who has private insurance will see their rate drop.
Posted by NeilSagan at 08/05/2009 @ 12:44am
is it possible frosty zoom opened the judibrowni account to focus on health care and practice improving his cut-and-paste skills?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:46am
has big posture ever posted anything which could even remotely be considered a cogent thought? What the hell is this lunatic even raving about? I take it that he doesn't like obama, but everything else is shrouded in a fog of idiocy and horrific grammar.
Posted by entropy at 08/05/2009 @ 12:48am
--why "meaningless chaos" to end the last paragraph but "reckless chaos" to end the penultimate paragraph? What's the difference between "reckless" and "meaningless" here? Or is it too chaotic to explain?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/04/2009 @ 11:53pm
Evolutionary genetics: Making the most of redundancy
Edward J. Louis
Single genes, chromosomal regions and even entire genomes can undergo duplication. What good can come of these extra copies? Evolution seems to use several tricks to take advantage of the situation.
••
The recent collapse of honeybee colonies across the United States provides a compelling example of how we removed resilience from a fundamental ecological service -- pollination -- to make it more efficient and the unexpected blowback we are now suffering from that. In this case, there is little resilience in the manmade system of food production that relies on healthy populations of commercial bee colonies to pollinate crops and too little resilience left in the natural world for bees to recover quickly from whatever is wiping them out.
••
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 12:50am
"The Nation will not be the organ of any party, sect, or body. It will, on the contrary, make an earnest effort to bring to the discussion of political and social questions a really critical spirit, and to wage war upon the vices of violence, exaggeration and misrepresentation by which so much of the political writing of the day is marred and cruises suck.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 12:52am
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 12:50am | ignore this person | warn this person
more off topic copy-and-pastes please...keep 'em comin'
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:52am
The long drawn-out death throes of the GOP southern stratgery ...
... or the birth of a US SA (brownshirts)?
Or both?
If either of last 2, when do we get the The Night of the Long Knives? And at whose command?
Pandora's Box of demons is opening & there'll be no closing it ... interesting to see which pols hop the demons backs for a ride ... Palin perhaps?
And who fail to condemn ... Romney? Bloomberg?
Posted by sloper at 08/05/2009 @ 12:53am
is it possible frosty zoom opened the judibrowni account to focus on health care and practice improving his cut-and-paste skills?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:46am
is it possible frosty zoom opened the judibrowni account to focus on health care and practice improving his cut-and-paste skills?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:46am
is it possible frosty zoom opened the judibrowni account to focus on health care and practice improving his cut-and-paste skills?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:46am
is it possible frosty zoom opened the judibrowni account to focus on health care and practice improving his cut-and-paste skills?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:46amis it possible frosty zoom opened the judibrowni account to focus on health care and practice improving his cut-and-paste skills?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:46am
is it possible frosty zoom opened the judibrowni account to focus on health care and practice improving his cut-and-paste skills?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:46amis it possible frosty zoom opened the judibrowni account to focus on health care and practice improving his cut-and-paste skills?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:46am
is it possible frosty zoom opened the judibrowni account to focus on health care and practice improving his cut-and-paste skills?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:46amis it possible frosty zoom opened the judibrowni account to focus on health care and practice improving his cut-and-paste skills?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:46am
is it possible frosty zoom opened the judibrowni account to focus on health care and practice improving his cut-and-paste skills?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:46amis it possible frosty zoom opened the judibrowni account t
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 12:54am
"and cruises suck."
--brilliant and witty subtle change. keep 'em comin'
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:54am
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 12:54am | ignore this person | warn this person
--not even close to enough. keep 'em comin'
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:55am
has big posture ever posted anything which could even remotely be considered a cogent thought?
Posted by entropy at 08/05/2009 @ 12:48am
rio works very hard for his elderly family (i believe they are all over 123..).
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 12:56am
Obama administration green lights logging in Tongass National Forest
Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack gave his personal approval for a 381-acre clear-cut in America's largest stand of temperate rain forest.
Thu, Jul 16 2009 at 12:43 PM EST
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 12:59am
Posted by NeilSagan at 08/05/2009 @ 12:44am | ignore this person | warn this person
--it's too bad there's not currently a Democrat president and a filibuster-proof Democrat majority in the Senate.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 12:59am
"Well, at least they have the Obamanation that makes desolation accurately chractorized!" Big Posture
Is this really how you attempt to communicate with your fellow man? A series of grunts and hand signs from an intelligent gorilla would make more sense sir. How do you expect anyone to take your opinions seriously if you choose (?) to converse in this manner?
Posted by entropy at 08/05/2009 @ 12:59am
ain't seen a majority yet that's k-street proof.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 01:00am
How do you expect anyone to take your opinions seriously if you choose (?) to converse in this manner?
Posted by entropy at 08/05/2009 @ 12:59am | ignore this person | warn this person
--you're taking him seriously, no?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 01:01am
a word is but a collection of sounds.
word ain't nutttttin but a kullecshin uvvvv soundz.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 01:02am
no
Posted by entropy at 08/05/2009 @ 01:03am
--you're taking him seriously, no?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 01:01am
his vote counts as much as yours.
or do you work at goldmanmorgan?
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 01:04am
ain't seen a majority yet that's k-street proof.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 01:00am | ignore this person | warn this person
--the deep conclusion that lobbyists own all political decisions.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 01:04am
well, deep into your pockets.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 01:07am
"a word is but a collection of sounds."
--a spoken word is a collection of sounds, but it's not merely a collection of sounds. the meaning behind the collection of sounds is what makes the sounds a word. besides, "a word is but a collection of sounds" doesn't contain any sound unless you just read it out loud.
"word ain't nutttttin but a kullecshin uvvvv soundz."
--phoenetics works for any language. still didn't say that out loud--so no "sounds" or "soundz"
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 01:10am
no
Posted by entropy at 08/05/2009 @ 01:03am | ignore this person | warn this person
so if you're not taking him seriously then you won't be complaining about his posts anymore, no?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 01:11am
"There is not debate about how to best fix the problem, the debate is between people who want to fix the problem and people who don't." Posted by NeilSagan at 08/05/2009 @ 12:44am
I assume (or at least I hope) that this refers to the current political realities and is not a statement of general fact.
Even if we try to break the current debate along those lines, it gets messy. Certainly not everyone who supports reform supports this bill, and not everyone who doesn't has a sinister ulterior motive. There are plenty of folks (like Pres. Obama's former doctor) who support a single-payer plan and consequently object to this bill. While they may not be the ones at the town halls and are what Ms. Harris-Lacewell calls 'disruptive', there is no doubt many would rather see this bill defeated than passed. They are definitely not against reform.
There are also many classical liberals and libertarians who want to 'fix the problem' not by increasing government involvement in the system but by reducing it.
My only point is that this is a debate worth having. While I have a great deal of respect for Ms. Harris-Lacewell, pieces like this contribute more to the petty political game rather than to a meaningful debate over the merits of this bill.
Posted by liberalcorner at 08/05/2009 @ 01:12am
--you're taking him seriously, no?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 01:01am
his vote counts as much as yours.
or do you work at goldmanmorgan?
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 01:04am | ignore this person | warn this person
--entropy answered my question with a "no." makes your goldman sachs/j.p. morgan fall flat.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 01:13am
well, deep into your pockets.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 01:07am | ignore this person | warn this person
--i'm wearing shorts. they've got not pockets.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 01:14am
they've inflated your pants away.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 01:15am
My only point is that this is a debate worth having. While I have a great deal of respect for Ms. Harris-Lacewell, pieces like this contribute more to the petty political game rather than to a meaningful debate over the merits of this bill.
Posted by liberalcorner at 08/05/2009 @ 01:12am | ignore this person | warn this person
--agreed. your "only point" was my exact point at 11:54 and 12:54.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 01:17am
they've inflated your pants away.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 01:15am | ignore this person | warn this person
--you're sure i have pants?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 01:18am
If i feel like deriding a blithering idiot (great beer by the way) then i may "complain" about his posts. To my knowledge he has never once posted anything of substance, but i find his inane rants about "obamanations" and "satan's daughter" both sad and amusing simultaneously. I just envision this guy putting on makeup and caressing a high powered rifle in his trailer while yelling at the "libruls" on the big box with them talkin picshurs.
Posted by entropy at 08/05/2009 @ 01:21am
entropy: "If i feel like deriding a blithering idiot (great beer by the way) then i may "complain" about his posts."
--my question was if you took him seriously. you said no. I figured you'd be happy not to waste your time with someone you don't take seriously. but by all means, complain away...
entropy: To my knowledge he has never once posted anything of substance, but i find his inane rants about "obamanations" and "satan's daughter" both sad and amusing simultaneously."
--an honest answer. I think all of us are here for entertainment, including melisssa harris-lacewell (she's certainly not here to wage war against exaggeration)
entropy: "I just envision this guy putting on makeup and caressing a high powered rifle in his trailer while yelling at the "libruls" on the big box with them talkin picshurs."
--you need to start waging a war against cliche.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 01:25am
I'm quite certain that there are more constructive ways that we could all be spending our time urmy, but it is late, and i am inebriated, so your myriad wars will have to be waged another day. All apologies if my cliched devastation of a walking cliche provided verbal ambien.
Posted by entropy at 08/05/2009 @ 01:34am
entropy: "I'm quite certain that there are more constructive ways that we could all be spending our time urmy"
--only "quite" certain. c'mon, you can use a much stronger modifier there! no?
entropy: "but it is late, and i am inebriated, so your myriad wars will have to be waged another day."
--i'm genuinely sorry for you that when you drink you gravitate toward communicating with strangers on the internet. hang with some 3d folks next time you throw some back. i'm quite sure you'll have a far better time.
entropy: "All apologies if my cliched devastation of a walking cliche provided verbal ambien."
--do you talk like that with 3d people?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 01:41am
hmmmmmmmm......
anyhoo,
wasn't mr. bush often visualized as some sort of simian?
even the esteemed crabbie refers to him as "chimpie".
(i think "stimpie" is a much better metaphor)
and of course, mr. cheney as the penguin.
anyhoo....
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 02:28am
if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2008 and 1986, they would cost you $48.99 and $25.74 respectively.
••
Docker's Men's Iconic Cargo Pants - PHANTOM GREY. Retail Price - $48.99
••
half pants.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 02:34am
entropy: "I just envision this guy putting on makeup and caressing a high powered rifle in his trailer while yelling at the "libruls" on the big box with them talkin picshurs."
--you need to start waging a war against cliche. Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 01:25am
That's not cliche. One of BugPustules most coherent posts was one where he described his collection of weapons, their makers, and further described the makers stamps and identifying marks with loving detail.
It was nothing short of amazing, especially considering how he never said 'Obamanation' or 'demoncrats even once. So, to be fair, entropy was right on the mark with that one. I don't know about the makeup, but I've long harbored a suspicion that he lives in a trailer.
As to the content of the article, it was just not very well written, but I agree with the basic premise. Conservatives seem to be shouting down the debate, partially because they don't have a plan, and partially 'cause theys just plain mean.
Posted by ficheye at 08/05/2009 @ 02:42am
"Earlier this week, I reported to you the results of the so-called stress tests my department ran on the nation's 19 largest banks. This was an effort to determine each bank's fiscal soundness…Tonight, I would like to reveal to you, the American people, the results to part 2 of the stress tests, the written exam taken by all 19 banks' CEOs…. Initially, my department had planned to give each bank a numerical grade of one to 100, 100 being a perfect score. But then we decided that might unfairly stigmatize banks who scored low on the test because they followed reckless lending practices or were otherwise not good at banking. So we changed to a simple pass/fail system.
However, on reflection, a few of us felt that system was too rigid, so we changed it once again, to pass,/pass*. This seemed less judgmental and more inclusive. Eventually, at the banks' suggestion, we dropped the asterisk and went with a pass/pass system. Tonight, I am proud to say that after the written tests were examined, every one of the 19 banks scored a "pass". Congratulations, banks!"
~ the riddler.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 03:54am
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 02:28am
Not e'steemed. Sounds too Spanish. Spain is in Europe, and we know that Europe is chock full of....socialists! Great minds like Big Posure have told us that nothing good ever comes from Europe. (his ancestors as proof?)
Steamed would be a better term.
Posted by crabwalk at 08/05/2009 @ 05:19am
So this analogy would make the Pugs out to be...
...the mob?
I, for one, cannot wait to see Kucinich in full Batman body-armor before congress.
Posted by snowball777 at 08/05/2009 @ 05:33am
rio works very hard for his elderly family (i believe they are all over 123..).
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 12:56am | ignore this person | warn this person
Wrong frosty, moms 90 and uncle Jack is only 101 and their needs are few, but with the widowed daughter and her 3 kids at 4,6,&8 it does make for long days!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 05:42am
because they don't have a plan, and partially 'cause theys just plain mean.
Posted by ficheye at 08/05/2009 @ 02:42am | ignore this person | warn this person
Wrong as usual, go to KVHs sad thread and you will find the short version of Paul Ryans complete plan showing how pathetic and lieing KVH is being about it!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 05:46am
Poor Melissa Harris Lacewell is all contorted now since her black racist harvard colleague and Obamanation the "racist in chief" have shown their true colors in the shining light of bigotry and prejudice against all whites, and the rule of law consitutionally based which they supposedly honor and respect! No wonder she has no perspective that is credible and sounds as if her tinfoil hat is on to tight!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 06:00am
Where can I get an Obama-Joker poster? I want to put it next to my Bush-Joker Poster.
Posted by abell12ct at 08/05/2009 @ 06:21am
Conservatives and the GOP should be challenged when they offer alternative plans, but their ideas should be taken seriously. They aren't evil. They don't hate the country. They don't want to create a health care system that serves a privileged few. Responding to a silly caricature propagated by a relative fringe with a silly caricature helps no one.
As far as I'm concerned, the Joker asked the wrong question. We aren't serious enough.
Posted by liberalcorner at 08/04/2009 @ 11:59pm
What planet have you been living on? I'd say that the game plan of the neocons is to destroy the federal government and privatize everything. Changing the constitution to meet those ends is not out of there play book rules either. If you doubt that, try to explain the last eight years of the Bush administration.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/05/2009 @ 06:28am
What planet have you been living on? Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/05/2009 @ 06:28am | ignore this person | warn this person
Apparently not yours, since he is about the only credible leftist voice on the thread!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 06:44am
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 02:34am | ignore this person | warn this person
--send me the cash. even the 1986 amount is fine. thanks canadian.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 07:49am
So does that mean Sarah Palin is Catwoman?
Cuz she does have a bit of a Julie Newmar-ish thing going....heheh
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 07:54am
"...since he is about the only credible leftist voice on the thread!"---Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 06:44am
Uh, RIO...besides his ironic nickname...what makes you think "liberalcorner" is a "leftist"?!?!???!??
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 08:19am
Melissa Harris-Lacewell must live in Bizzaro-World.
(Remember the Seinfeld episodes where Bizzaro-World was a world where everything was backwards).
Ms. Harris-Lacewell says: "......By encouraging Americans to nurture fears of racial and ethnic competition, the Right similarly asks us to blow up one another. They ask citizens to see themselves as more worthy than their neighbor and to destroy others for the sake of self-preservation. ...."
She seems to forget (even thought she has been guilty of it herself) that is was elements of the left that portrayed the Sotomayor hearings as something other than what they really were.
Republicans in Congress were asking Sonia Sotomayor legitimate questions about her judicial activism. Yet some on the left, including Ms. Harris-Lacewell, portrayed the hearings as some kind of morality play where a Latina successfully faced down white males in the Senate. (enabling Ms. Harris-Lacewell to throw race and gender cards at the same time).
It is the left that continues to stoke the flames of race, gender and class warfare.
And Ms. Harris-Lacewell says: "....By repeating their baseless claims, the Birther movement has managed to convince a sizeable portion of Southern, white Americans that President Obama may not have been born in the United States....."
So Ms. Harris-Lacewell is still fighting the War Between the States, I guess....unaware that the war ended at Appomattox over 140 years ago.
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 10:01am
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 08:19am | ignore this person | warn this person
Flashback: 35% of Democrats Think Bush Knew of 9/11 Attacks in Advance By Brent Baker Created 2009-08-04 13:32;
Another 26% of Democrats are unsure; i.e., could be convinced if 9/11 investigation was reopened and not satisfied with the government's explanation and account.
This is a current poll of belief!
http://newsbusters.org/node/31893/print
Now, Republicans tend to be the political persuasion that could be classified as anti-9/11 Truther.
Media interests still label persons as sceptical of the government's account as "fringe" or "lunatic." That is a pretty sizeable amount of America isn't it. What the media and politicians are trying to do, is to close the book and quick. Such events as newscasters detailing the fall of the third tower BEFORE it collapsed in free fall are certainly troubling.
Sure you aren't a Republican Maskie or a MSM harpy?
Posted by OneVote at 08/05/2009 @ 10:03am
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 10:01am
Curious, SJCHER.....do YOU believe Pres. Obama is a citizen or not?
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 10:03am
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 10:01am
Curious, SJCHER.....do YOU believe Pres. Obama is a citizen or not?
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 10:04am
Oops, sorry for the double.
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 10:04am
Anyone wants to see the original depiction of a POTUS as the "Joker", check out below.....a well-done depiction of my hero......hehehehe!
http://www.vanityfair.com/online/politics /2008/07/bush-as-joker.html
Posted by Happy at 08/05/2009 @ 10:06am
So Ms. Harris-Lacewell is still fighting the War Between the States, I guess....unaware that the war ended at Appomattox over 140 years ago.
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 10:01am | ignore this person | warn this person
She seems like a relatively pleasant and intelligent person.....why couldn't she adapt to a less divisive curricula?
Statements such as:
'And Ms. Harris-Lacewell says: "....By repeating their baseless claims, the Birther movement has managed to convince a sizeable portion of Southern, white Americans that President Obama may not have been born in the United States....."'
need to be supported. My concern about the birther controversy is that media is giving us an illusion that it is widespread. got to keep up those ratings by perpetuating divisive mythology..............
Congress just affirmed that BO's birthplace was Hawaii.
Southern Whites should be just a tad offended I would think.
This whole deal astroturf nonsense.
Posted by OneVote at 08/05/2009 @ 10:16am
What planet have you been living on? I'd say that the game plan of the neocons is to destroy the federal government and privatize everything. Changing the constitution to meet those ends is not out of there play book rules either. If you doubt that, try to explain the last eight years of the Bush administration.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/05/2009 @ 06:28am
Were you dropped on your head as a child or is this just part of a learning disability?
Posted by antisocialist at 08/05/2009 @ 10:23am
Posted by Happy at 08/05/2009 @ 10:06am | ignore this person | warn this person
And the Vanity Fair article references a depiction of Bush as The Joker, drawn by a Drew Friedman - likely a liberal.
Posted by OneVote at 08/05/2009 @ 10:23am
timmy geithner sure looks a lot like the riddler.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/05/2009 @ 12:44am | ignore this person | warn this person
check out what Paulson and Son are doing in Portland in this issue of The Nation. Say, didn't George Bush do something similar.
I guess the "crisis" has passed, and Mr. Paulson looks confidently to the future that taxpayers will continue to support his ventures.
Posted by OneVote at 08/05/2009 @ 10:30am
Posted by OneVote at 08/05/2009 @ 10:03am
OV...what about my 8:19am post relates to that????
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 11:33am
I actually wanted to make a thoughtful and amusing comment about this topic, then I read the other posts and thought; "Why bother, I mean it's Wednesday, it's hot, and the last thing I read that made any sense was a Canadian rambling on about pants and Mask comparing palin to Newmar"
Posted by mishelley at 08/05/2009 @ 11:49am
Posted by mishelley at 08/05/2009 @ 11:49am
Well, it was generous. I'm sure if asked Ms Newmar could name a few magazines and newspapers she reads.....heheh
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 11:51am
OV...what about my 8:19am post relates to that????
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 11:33am | ignore this person | warn this person
Something about casting first stones in relation to use of "labels" is a liitle indigestible.......
Posted by OneVote at 08/05/2009 @ 11:55am
I actually wanted to make a thoughtful and amusing comment about this topic, then I read the other posts and thought; "Why bother, I mean it's Wednesday, it's hot, and the last thing I read that made any sense was a Canadian rambling on about pants and Mask comparing palin to Newmar"
Posted by mishelley at 08/05/2009 @ 11:49am | ignore this person | warn this person
So Frosty and Mask beat you to the punch?
Posted by OneVote at 08/05/2009 @ 12:01pm
Mask,
You asked: "...Curious, SJCHER.....do YOU believe Pres. Obama is a citizen or not?...."
Then you post in: "..Oops, sorry for the double.Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 10:04am.."
1. No need to apologize for the double post.....That only puts you at 2 for this question.....most questions you ask you are way beyond 2 by now!
2. I have paid no attention to the controversy concening Obama's citizenship. I have enough other things to worry about, concerning Obama's attempts to ram Socialist Utopia down our throats.
Obama (via Dems in Congress) put out an over 1,000 page bill on health care in July, and it was the original hope of the Obama administration that they would rush it through by the end of July. Obama failed at that, but Obama & Co. will keep trying to pull out all the stops to turn America into Sweden or France.
For the sake of argument, if somehow Obama were to be proven to not be a citizen, then I guess he would no longer be President, and that would make Joe Biden President. So a lib would still be President and libs would still control Congress. So it would be a moot point and in my opinion is pointless to worry about Obama's citizenship.
This was the same situation as when Slick Willie was impeached. He deserved to be voted out of office during a Senate trial, but the big downside of that would have been that Algore would have been president. What would that have accomplished.
So I am more concerned about Obamacare, and Obama (probably via Algore) initiatives for the environment, and the Obama Apology Tour, and Obama stimulus that has made the economy worse, etc than I am about Obama's citizenship.
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 12:06pm
If you doubt that, try to explain the last eight years of the Bush administration. Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/05/2009 @ 06:28am
Finally watched 'W'. I wonder what conservatives think of the movie, whether it's unfair or not. Is it possible that he was portrayed as being nicer than he really was? Josh Brolin really had his work cut out for him as far as learning to forget the english language.
I didn't need any further evidence to decide that Dubya was a cowboy without a clue. But he wasn't as smart as the Joker, so I think that the parallel is unfair.
In this poorly thought out article I think that vilifying white southerners was also a pretty unnecessary comment. That's just buying into the name calling and rhetoric surrounding the health care debate. Someone needs to take the high ground but it's uncertain as to who will be the first to do so.
Posted by ficheye at 08/05/2009 @ 12:41pm
It's obvious what is going on. The elite class goal has been to get richer at everyone else's expense. They did it by conning enough of the electorate into voting for their party (the GOP) against their own best interest by using Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, etc. Unfortunately for them enough of the electorate got out of a coma last year and voted the bastards out of office. They are trying everything to keep the pendulum from swinging back to where prosperity will not go only to the rich. The tactics they have selected are to bring about fear of socialism, racism, to those who are most likely to be easily duped, i.e. ignorant white folks. It's ugly and it's going to get uglier. I'd go so far that behind closed doors they are hoping some right wing nut will take the law into his own hands and try to shoot some of our elected officials.
Posted by cberkland at 08/05/2009 @ 12:42pm
In the International Adult Literacy Survey (IALS) assessment, 1994-98:
The mean prose literacy scores of U.S. adults with primary or no education, ranked 14th out of 18 high-income countries;
The mean prose literacy scores of U.S. adults with some high school, but no diploma or GED, ranked 19th out of 19 high-income countries;
The mean prose literacy scores of U.S. adults with a high school diploma or GED (but no college), ranked 18th (tie) out of 19 countries;
The mean prose literacy scores of U.S. adults with 1-3 years of college, ranked 15th out of 19 countries; and The mean prose literacy scores of U.S. adults with a bachelor's degree or higher, ranked 5th.
(Sum, 2002, p19, Table 11)
Now, what part of the country has the lowest literacy rate?
I think the KOS survey, given its "margin of error" is pretty suspect or inconclusive as to its impact. A good percentage of the population likely isn't following this issue at all, and/or has little knowledge of it.
And the survey, or at least the part cited in this article, didn't survey the race of respondents. This artilce makes a definite inference in that regard, however, "Southern Whites."
check this out.......reference to Harris-Lacewell's cite 'Southern Whites' above:
'Birthers are mostly Republican and Southern by kos
Share this on Twitter - Birthers are mostly Republican and Southern Fri Jul 31, 2009 at 08:20:37 AM PDT Research 2000 for Daily Kos. 7/27-30. All adults. MoE 2% (No trend lines)
Do you believe that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?
Yes 77 No 11 Not sure 12
So 11 percent of Americans are Obama-hating conspiracy theorists. How do they break down?'
A little conclusory? Who is hosing who?
Posted by OneVote at 08/05/2009 @ 12:59pm
In this poorly thought out article I think that vilifying white southerners was also a pretty unnecessary comment. That's just buying into the name calling and rhetoric surrounding the health care debate. Someone needs to take the high ground but it's uncertain as to who will be the first to do so.
Posted by ficheye at 08/05/2009 @ 12:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Well said!
Posted by OneVote at 08/05/2009 @ 1:08pm
'Others take the criticism farther. ''Whenever Americans have the divisions and illnesses of their society revealed to them forcefully, they tend to distance themselves from the revelation by invoking otherness," said J. Mills Thornton, a Southern historian at the University of Michigan. ''All of the social pathologies that are often identified as 'Southern' are in fact American."'
Excerpt:
Southern Exposure - Boston Globe By Clay Risen | September 18, 2005
Posted by OneVote at 08/05/2009 @ 1:16pm
I'm sure if asked Ms Newmar could name a few magazines and newspapers she reads.....heheh Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 11:51am
Yeah, but all the republicans would care about was how she looked in a catwoman suit.
Posted by mishelley at 08/05/2009 @ 1:27pm
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 12:06pm
Well, SJ, would you like to go pay some attention to the controversy...and get back to me with a straight yes-or-no answer as to its validity...
or not so much?
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 1:28pm
Oh, and by the way...
Hillary would beat Palin 51-39% in a head-to-head match-up.
Rasmussen....so no denying it....heheh
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 1:29pm
"There are also many classical liberals and libertarians who want to 'fix the problem' not by increasing government involvement in the system but by reducing it."
true, but we tried that. and it didn't work. we have been reducing government involvement for 40 years.
i think we need to look very closely at european and canadian systems. let's be frank, objective. this sort of knee-jerk opposition to anything canada and europe does is the source of the problem. just because something is socialized doesn't mean it's invalid, ineffective or cost-efficient.
we have all the evidence we need to know that canada and europe are not bankrupt because of healthcare.
if our innovation goes down a bit, who cares? if industry professionals make a bit less money, who cares? if the wealthy have their taxes raise, oh well.
we need to lift up the bottom, and trim off the top.
the moment obama says, "we need to study the canadian system" the right wing freaks out, and goes on the offensive. it's seems impossible.
Posted by darladoon at 08/05/2009 @ 1:30pm
Joker aside, people need to understand that the Republican party is not per se conservative; it is the party of white American wealth and privilege. It appeals to people who are not wealthy or privileged, by playing to the so-called "wedge" issues: race, abortion, homophobia, gun rights, and religion. Karl Marx referred to such people as the lumpenproletariat, who had no sense of their own class, economic, social, and political interests. They are puppets of the governing, privileged elite. Republican values are those of the 1950s and before. It is the party of white country club politics and for the lower classes pick-up trucks and guns. Unlike the elite, however, the lower/lower middle/even middle classes live constantly on the edge of unemployment, bankruptcy, ruin... without perhaps realizing it. If you examine closely the ideological premises of people like Rosh Limbaugh, Lou Dobbs, et al., you could make an academic argument that these are American fascists or neo-fascists with their anti-immigrant biases, their clandestine or not-so-clandestine racism, their extreme nationalism, their white priviledged morality, their belief in guns and violence, and the like. The Republicans are now very dangerous indeed.
Posted by mikhailovich at 08/05/2009 @ 1:31pm
MHL is a psychopath. The "divisive" people relying on, depending on, and empowering themselves through RACISM is the LEFT! If all racism were eradictaed tomorroow, half of the left would lose thier jobs, because their jobs are rooted in fanning the flames of racism. Conservatives cannot even talk about race, without being called racists! The Black Panther's just got away with voter indimidation of the worst kind because our that piece of shit obama and his buddy, eric holder, share their beliefs and have no problem with racist voter-intimidation as long as it's THEIR racists committing the crime! Gates' ENTIRE career has been created through his racism, and his continued divisive, hate-filled propaganda continues to empower and enrich him just as it has obam and many, many of their cohorts. If we ever have a TRULY colorblind society, the left and the dem. party will cease to exist! MHL is the bigot, racist, divisive type (see: Sotomayer), not conservatives!!!!!! IDIOT!
Posted by barry25 at 08/05/2009 @ 1:43pm
mchailovich is a bonafide moron. I'll take his dumb-ass to task on just one lie for now. He states that conservatives like Rush and Dobbs are facists with "anti-immigrant biases". This is the exact type of liberal, media-induced, bumper-sticker LYING that goes on, especially in so-called "academic" circles. Bullshit! They are NOT "anti-immigrant", they are anti- "ILLEGAL" immigrant, you moronic twerp. I'm so tired of the left LYING! Don't you people have an ounce of honesty in your souls? No, because if you did, you wouldn't be liberal losers.
The facts show that the REAL racists in this nation are on the left. Each and eevery one of these people/org.s are FACTUAL racists based on both words and actions and there is no debate: Obama, Sotomayer, Eric Holder,Gates, Rev. Wright, LaRAza,ACORN, NAACP, congressional black caucus, Dick Durbin, John Murtha, Obama's supporter/campaigner that kicked those black kids out of his community pool because of fear that they'd "change the complexion of the pool", Michelle Obama (uglyyyyyyyyy), Maxine Waters, Robert "KKK" Bird, Mark Thompson (am leftist/racist talk radio) etc. These are the real racists, and that is fact.
Posted by barry25 at 08/05/2009 @ 1:56pm
Mask,
Like I said, it seemed odd that you apologized for a double post because most of your postings go way past double.
The answer is Not So Much, which I told you in my post. So why are you asking the question again?
I have paid practically no attention to the controversy, I do not know what the basis for the concern is, and I can not imagine if there is a situation where people think Obama may not be an official citizen what detail I would have that would solve the issue!
I told you already, if somehow something came of this and Obama were disqualified as president, it would just be one lib taking over for another.
The only difference would be that we would perhaps hear stories about how people such as George Washington or Abraham Lincoln communicated with the American people via television, radio and the internet!
As far as Hillary, since next-President Palin will be running against and defeating Obama in 2013, why do Hillary's poll numbers matter?
And Hillary will be beside herself when she is not the first woman president. On NBC's Meet the Press a couple of weekends ago she passed herself off as some great statesperson who is not really interested in the Presidency any more. That is a load of unadulterated B.S., she did want and no doubt still wants the job so bad she can taste it.
But Sarah Palin will be the first Woman president of the U.S. Hillary Clinton will never be President of the U.S., most Democrats know that it is a package deal and want no part now (they used to but not anymore) of having Slick Willie anywere near 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., N.W.
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 2:02pm
Typo,
Next-President Palin will be defeating Obama in 2012, not 2013, as I said above. She will be taking office in 2013.
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 2:04pm
composted by barry25 at 08/05/2009 @ 1:43pm
* MHL is a psychopath
I think you need to look up the definition. " A person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior". It's just a bad article.
*Conservatives cannot even talk about race, without being called racists!
Remember macaca? I think that the blame can be shared all around. Please get a grip. I wonder if the Boston cop who said that Gates was 'a banana eating jungle monkey' was a liberal? We'll have to wait and see, but my guess is that he's not.
*If all racism were eradicated tomorrow, half of the left would lose their jobs, because their jobs are rooted in fanning the flames of racism.
Wow. Clearly untrue. It sounds like Anne Coulter-speak. Forget left and right, Barry. Many people out there want an equable, fair solution to all these crisis issues.
*Michelle Obama (uglyyyyyyyyy)
That seems, by itself, to be ALMOST racist. She's not ugly, by any stretch. So it's a mystery statement.
Barry, your profanity laced rants don't paint you as anyone with a worthy opinion outside of your hatred of liberals. Take out the swearing and name calling, and possibly all the exclamation points, and you'd have a regular blog post about how you don't like liberals. which is fair, all by itself.
Posted by ficheye at 08/05/2009 @ 2:36pm
Next-President Palin will be defeating Obama in 2012, not 2013, as I said above. She will be taking office in 2013.
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 2:04pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Ask Clear Channel. Not smart enough to have her own radio show. They figured there was no way this woman could carry on an intelligent dialogue and conversation day to day. I assume they did a little test marketing to corporate sponsors to see if they would bite.
Posted by OneVote at 08/05/2009 @ 2:40pm
What planet have you been living on? I'd say that the game plan of the neocons is to destroy the federal government and privatize everything. Changing the constitution to meet those ends is not out of there play book rules either. If you doubt that, try to explain the last eight years of the Bush administration.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/05/2009 @ 06:28am
We don't want to destroy the govt, we want to return it to complying with the constitution.
Ron Paul while certainly not a perfect candidate, drew money and a lot of following, especially from young people by speaking truth to the lies of big unconstitutional govt.
It is the left, not the right that is trying to destroy the govt and replace it with a European style socialist democracy. Darla reflects the voice of many on the left who see nothing wrong with that goal.
Posted by antisocialist at 08/05/2009 @ 3:00pm
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 2:02pm
Well, here's the REAL answer, SJCHER....you're a smart guy.
Yep...you are. You, like Coulter, Malkin, O'Reilly, even Rush realize that aligning yourself with the Birthers (despite being 28% of the Republican Party)....is political suicide.
ESPECIALLY for 2012 GOP primary candidates like your beloved Catwoman...er...Hockey Mom.
If the Birther "issue" continues for the next 2 years, and GOP primary candidates are asked about ...they are doomed to a dilemma-
1. Say "No, I believe President Obama was born in Hawaii and is a citizen."....and piss off over 1/4 of the party???
2. Say "Yes, I think there are doubts as to his citizenship"....and lose the General Election in the Fall.
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 3:02pm
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 2:04pm
According to Rasmussen (heheh...love saying that especially to you)...
Palin loses by 11% to Hillary.
And Obama beat Hillary for the nomination last year.
So...what would that seem to indicate????
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 3:04pm
"If the current political moment were mapped onto The Dark Knight script..."
...let's not. How about spending a few quality moments and use your imagination to come up with an appropriate metaphor rather than use popular culture as a surrogate for thought?
"We can and must embrace the messy work of democracy and disagreement without descending into the destruction of meaningless chaos."
Please help me understand. What is constructive in equating people that have a hard time understanding birth certificates and the meaning of socialism with the Joker? Do you find it a bit ironic that after making this move you then end the piece with a call to kumbaya?
Here's an exercise. Go out on the web and do a search for the pamphlet, "Why I want to Fuck Ronald Reagan." Notice that the length of your piece and the Ronald piece are not too different.
But there is a big difference. The difference is that yours is responding to a stupid idea and your reimagining is even more stupid than the original. Example: anyone who has watched the Dark Knight knows the Joker was a grief troll and the destruction was merely a by-product. Yet, your analysis fails to even grasp that simple point.
"Why I want to Fuck Ronald Reagan," by way of contrast, is inspired. It has phrases like, "Reagan's face was uniformly perceived as a penile erection." It redefines the conversation in a way that is both truthful and surreal. In other words, it has the imagination your piece sorely lacked.
Don't take this personally. I'm challenging you to step up your game and write something that matters - or at the very least interesting enough to read all the way through without having your audience wonder why you spend your time writing. Show us you ought to be here rather than out somewhere digging ditches.
Posted by srjenkins at 08/05/2009 @ 3:20pm
'Conservative tactics of social divisiveness feel distinctly Joker-like. Elected Republicans and conservative talk show personalities like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck used the Sotomayor hearings and President Obama's response to the Dr. Henry Louis Gates' arrest to claim reverse racism, stoke racial anxiety, and suggest that some citizens are more worthy than others.'
Uh, no. It was Professor Gates who caused his arrest for disorderly conduct to morph into a racial issue and it was President Barack 'The Joker' Obama who called the Cambridge Police Department stupid. Please don't let the facts get in your way.
Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/05/2009 @ 3:25pm
Mask,
You are amazing!
1. I give you an answer, but then you post in and you declare what my real answer is!
2. The poll regarding Hillary means nothing. This is the year 2009. The election will be in 2012. Even you know that but wont't admit it.
3. If somehow Armageddon happend and all human life on earth was destroyed except for you....if you were the sole surviving human.....you probably wouldn't even notice.....you would have a busy time asking questions and providing the answers you believe are the answers and having quite a back and forth dialog with yourself.
Question for you: According to you, you say that I know that aligning myself with "Birthers" is political suicide...
HOW??
How would it be political suicide for me? What am I running for?
Last I knew, I have never been into politics....as far as I know I am not a candidate for anything and I doubt I ever will be......
Do you know something I don't know? What office am I running for?
(I will give you a temporary reprieve on you backing up your claim that WXYZ Television in Detroit is biased towards Israel in their news coverage so you can work on providing me the answer to what office I am running for.....this is important to me that I know......because otherwise I could be elected to something and have to take office and not know about it until somebody comes along and demands I start being the mayor, or alderman, or state delegate or assemblyman, or governor, or senator or even President that I was elected to!)
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 3:40pm
I get where Ms Harris-Lacewell is coming from. I can see where she'd take umbrage at the Obama/Socialist/Joker image. Exactly how I felt watching Republican politicians parodied for, like, the last 40 years. I don't like it either.
What irks me is her unabashed hypocrisy on the whole topic of opposition. Code pink, ACORN, International ANSWER just to name a few of the countless left wing agitators didn't seem to bother Ms Harris-Lacewell at all during the Bush Administration.
Oh wait, don't we all remember her call out to the left that making a film about Bush's assassination was over the top? And his being called "chimpy" was unfair? And how Code Pink protesters were out of line disrupting Congressional hearings?
Yeah, right.
You are the definition of disingenuous, Ms Harris-Lacewell. And I'm amazed you actually think we can't see through it.
Hell, disingenuousness is probably the most transparent aspect of the Obama Administration so far!
I look forward to 2012. This glimpse into how horrible the collectivist future will be for all of us is quite enough.
Posted by freiheit1 at 08/05/2009 @ 4:03pm
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 3:40pm
sjchermak, I want to congratulate you on your supremacy as the bluntest tool in the shed.
Talking about Obama's birth certificate ranks right up there with 9/11 truth, calling Dan Rather "Kenneth" or talking about your UFO experiences with Shirley. In the context of party politics, it's the kiss of death.
So, continue droning on about it. Tell all your friends. Go to rallies. Wear t-shirts. Put signs in your front lawn. Post about it (hopefully, somewhere where I don't have to read it).
You have my unqualified and continual support in this endeavor.
Posted by srjenkins at 08/05/2009 @ 4:12pm
Posted by freiheit1 at 08/05/2009 @ 4:03pm
Yeah, I too was outraged when Bush's head was photoshopped onto ape general Thade's body and the post 9/11 political situation was reduced to fitting the "current political situation" to the absurd script of the redone "Planet of the Apes".
Oh, right. That didn't happen. But hey, feel free to use that. I'm sure talking about Obama in the context of Planet of the Apes is going to be a real election day winner and really will get out the Ku Klux Klan vote.
Posted by srjenkins at 08/05/2009 @ 4:28pm
and it was President Barack 'The Joker' Obama who called the Cambridge Police Department stupid.
Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/05/2009 @ 3:25pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Call 'em stupid when they act stupid!
Posted by jarshadow at 08/05/2009 @ 4:42pm
Posted by srjenkins at 08/05/2009 @ 4:28pm
Having a bad day? That was a real airball.
Posted by freiheit1 at 08/05/2009 @ 4:52pm
Former U.S. Rep. William Jefferson of Louisiana was convicted Wednesday on 11 of the 16 corruption charges against him.
Jefferson, a 62-year-old Democrat, was indicted by a federal grand jury on June 4, 2007, on corruption charges, about two years after federal agents said they found $90,000 in his freezer. Authorities said the cash was part of a payment in marked bills from an FBI informant in a transaction captured on video.
Jefferson had pleaded not guilty.
The jury convicted him on four counts of bribery, three counts of racketeering, three counts of wire fraud and one count of racketeering. He was acquitted on five other counts including wire fraud and obstruction of justice.
Jefferson had faced a maximum possible sentence of 235 years in prison if convicted on all counts.
Just when we had given up on justice being served it is vindicated, Great!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 5:23pm
Next-President Palin will be defeating Obama in 2012, not 2013, as I said above. She will be taking office in 2013.
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 2:04pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Well, she certainly has one thing going for her: the inability to say anything coherent.
Posted by jarshadow at 08/05/2009 @ 5:36pm
Just when we had given up on justice being served it is vindicated, Great! Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 5:23pm
No one said that this guy should not go to jail. I'm happy that it brings you such joy, cutting and pasting notwithstanding.
Now if they would only put Bush and Cheney in the slammer justice would be complete! No WMD's, no matter what kind of parsing the conservatives do. An illegal war that really had no results except to bomb a small nation into submission. Kind of.
Afghanistan should have been the first and only place we went, where Al-Qaida was. We failed at empire building in Iraq. We may eventually get some of the oil, but the price was incredibly steep. Allahu Akbar!
Bush was the Joker back then, Cheney, the Riddler.
Posted by ficheye at 08/05/2009 @ 6:22pm
This comment belongs here...
Back by Popular Demand for all Republican jokers, a look at your Republican States of America 20 years from now in the year 2029.
Prediction #7: Taxes are now totally abolished, and replaced by a new "pay as you go" Halli-burden DNA Credit System. All persons shall be implanted with a Halli-burden DNA credit accounting sequence into their genetic code upon conception, which will allow them to account for the debt accumulation for placenta rental fees, birthing costs and child rearing debt incurred during the first years of their lives. This debt shall be paid via installments starting on their 10th birthday with enrollment into the wildly successful Halli-agriprison and Halli-industroswindle Labor Corporations.
Prediction #8: President Barbara Bush II announces "Layer Cake Remedial Program" to prevent starvation and provide disaster relief throughout the world, to be administered via a no-bid contract with the Halli-food Corporation.
Prediction #9: Washington DC is officially pronounced Washington Dick Cheeney, in honor of the great leader and politician of the historical Halli-IRAQ Era. All public statues of Lincoln, Jefferson and FDR will be replaced with private statues of Dick Cheeney holding a chicken in his left hand and a hawk in his right hand.
Prediction #10: By an act of the joint party of Depublicans in Congress, a proclamation has been declared that the Dept of Defense will, from this day forward, be forever commanded by subsequent and exclusively legal clones of Donald Rumsfeld.
Prediction #11: Halli-care Health Services will be renamed Halli-love Services.
Prediction #12: All hospitals and health care providers will install "LuckyCare" slot machines that can be used by patients to earn chits and potentially relieve debt.
Posted by thanksbutnothanks at 08/05/2009 @ 6:31pm
I think the important thing is, all the alleged conservatives (see: lunatic conspiracy theorist assholes) need to get some.
So much pent up sexual energy apparently makes people believe utterly ridiculous tripe.
Barry, give me your address, I'll send you $50 so you can go get blown. You have to promise not to spend it on more crack though.
Apparently the republicans aren't just the party of over-priveleged middle-upper class wanna-bes, racists, and homophones...they're now bringing the nutty "dick Cheney blew up wtc 7!" crowd.
Yeesh.
Posted by TexasFlood at 08/05/2009 @ 6:32pm
Bush was the Joker back then, Cheney, the Riddler.
Posted by ficheye at 08/05/2009 @ 6:22pm | ignore this person | warn this person
It was about their obsession: oil....and every time an SUV was bought in this country, approval was given to Bush and Cheney to pursue their crimes.
Posted by jarshadow at 08/05/2009 @ 6:33pm
Posted by freiheit1 at 08/05/2009 @ 4:52pm
Not at all. I found it hilarious, as I do all this whining about how bad Bush was treated. You need a tissue?
Posted by srjenkins at 08/05/2009 @ 6:49pm
No thanks. Don't cry when I laugh.
Posted by freiheit1 at 08/05/2009 @ 7:04pm
It was about their obsession: oil....and every time an SUV was bought in this country, approval was given to Bush and Cheney to pursue their crimes.
Posted by jarshadow at 08/05/2009 @ 6:33pm
Exactly; America, the complacent nation. All those who bought into our access to endless resources lost their souls while getting 12 miles a gallon.
Was the Joker a national persona?
Posted by ficheye at 08/05/2009 @ 7:36pm
Exactly; America, the complacent nation. All those who bought into our access to endless resources lost their souls while getting 12 miles a gallon.
Was the Joker a national persona?
Posted by ficheye at 08/05/2009 @ 7:36pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Joke is on us. See Cash for Clunkers program. Now the government (that would be us taxpayers) is buying them back. Can't we ship them all to Saudi Arabia or Iraq and get something a little bit more than salvage value? ME loves big cars.
Posted by OneVote at 08/05/2009 @ 7:44pm
srjenkins,
I think YOU qualify as having the bluntest tool in the shed, demonstrated by your inability to read coherently what others have written.
If you go back over my postings, and read them again, you will see that:
1. I did not initially bring up the issue of the Obama birth controversy.
2. Mask asked ME about it.
3. I repeatedly responded to Mask saying that I had not paid attention to this and was not concerning myself with it, and would not be offering up an opinion on whether Obama was a legally born citizen or not.
Do you read what people write before firing back responses? You probably ought to give it a try.
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 8:03pm
Posted by sjchermak at 08/05/2009 @ 8:03pm
There is a difference between having and being, cf. "not the sharpest tool in the shed".
Rereading your postings? I thought we were talking about the Joker and Obama and not enhanced interrogation techniques. Please, please, I'll tell you anything just make it stop.
But, to the point, you were saying at 08/05/2009 @ 3:40pm:
"Question for you: According to you, you say that I know that aligning myself with "Birthers" is political suicide...HOW??"
While Mask likes loopy if/thens that can take the sense out of even the most reasonable position, here he is simply making the point that there is a contingent of the right wing nutaverse that thinks the birth certificate issue is somehow a controversy or is significant. He is pointing out that this will divide the Republican party if it ends up having legs, and he is asking if you subscribe to this variety of nuttery.
And instead of talking to this issue, you want to suggest that it doesn't matter to you, personally. And you are right of course, practically every post you make here confirms your kookiness, so believing in the theory that Obama isn't really a citizen isn't going to change people's minds much. But, this is not the issue Mask is raising and is besides the point.
Oh, and thanks for the Palin thing. That's the funniest prediction I've ever seen. I'm sure Mask is saving it up to throw in your face as soon as Palin joins a convent or starts making a living making adult videos.
Here's my wild prediction, Palin's not going to be President, at least not of the United States. Her political career is over. She's this generation's Dan Quayle that thinks a little tough talk about pitbulls is going to cover the e in potatoe.
Posted by srjenkins at 08/05/2009 @ 10:04pm
The center of the debate proposed by Ms Harris-Lacewell I believe is the persistence of the very clever - and highly innoble - Republican marketing tactics and imagery.
They did it with the swift-boaters, with the wolves attacking us, the nuclear holocaust with the atomic fungus. Now, they try to present our great President as not only a clown, but a perverse clown that laughs when evil is done.
I don't think therefore this is a minor subject. On the heart of these tactics is the profound desire of putting Obama in the ridicule level. But you know what, in the last 50 years there has been much more Rep presidents than Dems. No Rep ever talked about the necessity of reforming health care. Now we have at least 2 Dems, if it is not more.
So who does the evil? Aren't really them, the Reps? Negating people the right to live and decency? I would say the perfect actor for the Joker is really Mr. Cheney. One could sense his deep pleasure when the US went to war or when the rights of the people were infringed. But again, the problem of this actor is that he doesn't know how to laugh. Let's take Bush instead.
Posted by Frank42 at 08/05/2009 @ 10:24pm
Posted by Frank42 at 08/05/2009 @ 10:24pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Gee frank that sounds JUST like the Demoncrats and leftist ploy used on the Hon. G.W. Bush one of the greatest presidents!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 11:15pm
... that sounds JUST like the Demoncrats and leftist ploy used on the Hon. G.W. Bush one of the greatest presidents! Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 11:15pm
Right.
"Read my lips... no new taxes". That guy.
I agree that he was a lot more honorable than 'chimpy', however. The douche bag with cowboy boots. He's down in Texas collecting donations for his 'presidentchul liberry'.
Posted by ficheye at 08/05/2009 @ 11:44pm
Is BigPasture lapsing into McLoughlin-speak?
"But I..."
"WRONG!"
"Global warming is..."
"WRONG!"
"Sarah Pa...."
"WRONG!!! WRONG!!! WRONG!!"
"Obama is a citizen of....."
"WRONG!!!! You demoncrap of Obamanutjob liberal whiners! I'm gonna go pick my toenails and blog!! WRONG AGAIN!!!"
Whew. This has been an entertaining thread, though. Cheap entertainment in these hard times. And then there's CHERMAK. Who needs to read fiction? Barry, Anti, Big, and CHERMAK, with a little noise from Happy up top, like a cherry. I wouldn't be here if I didn't kind of like it. Guess I'm a masochist.
Posted by ficheye at 08/06/2009 @ 12:13am
"Joker's evil is banal, random, gleeful and almost effortless. "Do I really look like a guy with a plan?" he asks."
Like I said; Well, at least they have the Obamanation that makes desolation accurately chractorized! But, hey what is with the "WHITE FACE" crap? Are they referring to his overt racism against white people that he shares with his professor of black studies racist friend from harvard? (not to mention the overt racisim of the thread writer)
Obamanation has firmly established himself as the "racist in chief" eclipseing his early protrayal of the "apologist in chief" which made this nation look the fool to our friends and our enemies!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 12:14am
"Read my lips... no new taxes". That guy!
I agree that he was a lot more honorable than 'chimpy', however. The douche bag with cowboy boots. He's down in Texas collecting donations for his 'presidentchul liberry'.
Posted by ficheye at 08/06/2009 @ 12:13am | ignore this person | warn this person
I see you are easily confused, that was H.W.(Herbert Walker) Bush.
But anyway thanks for demonstrating completely the truth of my post! ; ie.
" Gee frank that sounds JUST like the Demoncrats and leftist ploy used on the Hon. G.W. Bush one of the greatest presidents!"
I could not ask for a more disparaging remark devoid of truth!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 12:24am
Posted by ficheye at 08/06/2009 @ 12:13am | ignore this person | warn this person I see you are easily confused, that was H.W.(Herbert Walker) Bush.
You're right!!
I have to put on my glasses because the type is pretty small. I wasn't confused... I just couldn't read the damn thing. Sorry.
Maybe when you used the title 'Honorable'... that was confusing... yes, it led my mind into other 'pastures', Big.
Posted by ficheye at 08/06/2009 @ 01:02am
You gotta admit it is fun playing here to keep the gray cells alive reguardless of your proclivity for other fun! Daughters home from work so no more babysitting tonight and gotta get work done early!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 01:17am
LITTLE ROCK, Ark. -- An unruly Little Rock crowd heckled and shouted at two Arkansas Democratic congressmen Wednesday, accusing them of supporting a government-backed health plan that would take away Americans' personal choice and freedom.
At one point, U.S. Rep. Mike Ross sat with his head in his hands while the crowd shouted. He and fellow Democratic Rep. Vic Snyder told audience members at a forum at Arkansas Children's Hospital that they wouldn't support a completely government-run, single-payer health insurance plan.
"But that's what Obama wants!" an audience member shouted, leading to more heckling.
Ross, who represents south Arkansas, sits on the Energy and Commerce Committee and has led his fellow Blue Dog Democrats in delaying a vote on the health care overhaul until at least September. Ross is chairman of the Blue Dogs' health care task force.
The Blue Dogs _ a group of mostly Southern, fiscally conservative Democrats _ have not committed to supporting or opposing the bill yet. A deal reached last week calls for exempting more small businesses from a requirement to offer coverage, cutting subsidies to help people buy health insurance and making any government-sponsored insurance plan negotiate payment rates with medical providers.
Lawmakers across the country are encountering growing public doubts about President Barack Obama's push to remake the system for providing medical care, evident in polls that find confidence in Obama's handling of the issue has fallen since January. Concerns are growing about government-run health plans, a growing federal deficit, and the impact on small businesses and end-of-life provisions.
Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 01:50am
."I've said this several times but let me see if I can make it a little more clear," Ross said. "I don't represent Speaker (Nancy) Pelosi or President Obama or (House Finance Committee Chairman) Barney Frank. I represent the people of Arkansas and I'm not voting for any bill that forces any one plan on anyone, period."
Many audience members cheered loudly when Ross said he wouldn't back anything that would provide federal funding for abortions or pay for health insurance for illegal immigrants.
But some were skeptical about the intentions of President Obama and Democrats in Congress.
----------
Boy, except for the few DNC and leftist "plants" in the audiences the American public is eating the Demoncrats alive in their meetings open to the people!!! I hope they keep trying to push this wagonload of horse manure around the country to make sure not a ONE of them including the Obamanation makes re-election in 2010 and 2012!
No hangings, just plenty of good ole fashion beatings going on! Whats even funnier is most are too stupid to see this is bonified public disent against a bullying bludgening political party not representing the intrest of the people! It will cost them dearly!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 01:53am
Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 01:53am
In what world is audience members at a forum at Arkansas Children's Hospital in Little Rock, Arkansas representative of the American public? Might there be a few loud mouthed doctors in the audience worrying about single payer cutting into their pay checks? Yeah, I think so.
The problem with cut-and-paste commentary like this is that any jackass can look for some random occurrence that supports their half-baked hypothesis.
"Hey look, people hummed the Imperial Death March as Cheney walked by that must mean the moon is the Death Star!"
It's this kind of tortured logic that leads to other comments, such as the "greatest of Presidents" George Bush II - a guy who was so weak that people talk about his VP's "greatness". The only thing "great" in either case is the gullibility of people who believe this nonsense. It's right up there with wondering about Obama's birth certificate.
Posted by srjenkins at 08/06/2009 @ 07:54am
Just remember with RIO/Big Posture...it's all about one thing-
"I hate Democrats!!!!"....he then builds outward from that.
heheh
Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 08:07am
Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 08:07am
At least, he has served a useful function here. By pointing to this kind of exchange as some kind of "will of the people" I looked a little closer and found this article, key quote:
"Many seem to be following advice laid out in a memo circulating on the Internet advising activists to "watch for an opportunity to yell out'' early in the presentation and "have someone else follow up with a shout-out.'' ... Republicans say the crowds prove there is strong opposition to revamping the healthcare system at the grass roots ... Democrats complain about "mob rule,'' or dismiss the protests as "astroturf'' - not genuine public sentiment, but orchestrated outrage manufactured by wealthy Washington interests."
While I find the Republican strategy of trying to dominate the discussion by their decibel level and ability to do the socially inappropriate interesting, I don't think this approach is going to work here - anymore than it worked with Code Pink and the Iraq War. If anything, it sounds like an excellent way to build sympathy for the Democrats.
http://tinyurl.com/loflvt
Posted by srjenkins at 08/06/2009 @ 08:32am
Oh, and another interesting post. Does this sound familiar?
"In the midst of all of the angry infighting amongst our regular commenters, we noticed that a meme was developing, we were becoming a place where the same 10-12 people came to continue the same argument each day, regardless of the topic. We've been hearing about libertarianism versus the perceived notion that this nation is moving towards socialism for about eight months now.
The result is that our once diverse community of political commenters has essentially boiled down to six proselytizing libertarians and a core group of liberals who like to bicker with them each day. Our traffic numbers are still growing at incredible rates month-over-month as people consume our content, but the community we once were so proud of is struggling to fight off the kudzu of ignorance. New readers are not contributing in comments because they don't feel welcome to do so. That's a problem we need to fix.
Because the local libertarian crowd (all 20 of them) cannot grow its local audience on its own merits, it has decided to engage in political discussions on more popular sites in the hopes that they can thereby recruit new readers through links and trackbacks left in our comment section.
We're not opposed to differing viewpoints, as we have many productive Republican commenters and bloggers on our site and we also offer a home to those that scrape the far lefty edges of the political spectrum. The problem is that the comments left by this vocal group are repetitive, predictable, and 99% of the time add absolutely nothing to the underlying article or discussion. In short, they're trolling."
http://wnymedia.net/wnymedia/smith/2009/08/moderating-comments/
Posted by srjenkins at 08/06/2009 @ 08:41am
Posted by srjenkins at 08/06/2009 @ 08:32am
They used to have William F. Buckley, Milton Friedman...for intellect. Or even Reagan for communication and "winning hearts and minds".
NOW, they have...
"If you can't win on merti, scream down the opposition!"
Even if you don't discount the weakness of their political power....their intellectual and persuasive power is bankrupt.
Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 09:41am
Her political career is over.
Posted by srjenkins at 08/05/2009 @ 10:04pm
I'll bet you're wrong! $1,000, how about it?
Posted by Happy at 08/06/2009 @ 10:20am
Nothing could be more stupid than the assertion that Conservatives are resisting health care reform - we want it badly, but we don't want it in a big rush that must be approved before we even have time to read and debate the plan!
Why is it you require that?? Why does it have to happen IMMEDIATELY?
Just one idea: Why is it that Democrats resist the insertion of Hyde ammendment like language in the plan?
As proposed, this plan would allow, no, mandate, that ALL health plans affected provide abortion on demand, paid by taxpayers if you're on the public option, paid by your provider if you're on a private plan.
The problem is, it forces those of us who, as a matter of religious belief object to killing babies, pay for it!
Additionally, this added benefit requirement will cause an across-the-board increase in premium increases in private sector plans.
This is unacceptable to many of us, but libs are determined to use this plan to stuff it down our throats.
When the salesman wants you to sign the contract without reading it, you can bet there is something in there that isn't good for you.
We ain't buying, Mellisa.
Posted by Elcobar at 08/06/2009 @ 10:51am
"Conservatives are resisting health care reform - we want it badly..."---Posted by Elcobar at 08/06/2009 @ 10:51am
So if they wanted it so badly...
why didn't they push it when THEY had Congress and the White House from 2003-2006????
Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 11:03am
Posted by Happy at 08/06/2009 @ 10:20am
A political career doesn't mean perpetual candidate, like an Alan Keyes. It means winning an election to a significant office.
I'll bet that Palin is unable to win a significant elected office (meaning: a seat in Congress, the Presidency, a Governorship or mayorship of any city with a population the size of Alaska or larger) during the next ten years. If she were to win an election to a significant elected office, I'll make a $1,000 contribution to her re-election campaign.
But, I'll only make this bet if you put some skin in the game yourself. If Palin fails to win this office, then you (or your estate) will make a $1,000 contribution to the Presidential campaign fund for the Green party. Or offer up some other bet that you think is comparable to mine, and if we agree, then consider it a bet.
I take for granted that you are a man of your word, and if you make the bet, you'll make good on it - and expect the same.
Posted by srjenkins at 08/06/2009 @ 11:07am
great blogging, MELISSA.
nail on the head!!!
Posted by dexter666 at 08/06/2009 @ 11:10am
Posted by srjenkins at 08/06/2009 @ 11:07am
HAPP only bets on sure things, sr....like-
"I'll predict, much closer to home, Tom Delay's old seat down in Sugar Land, now kept warm by Nick Lampson, will be won (back) by the GOP!"----Posted by HAPPY3 at 05/4/2008
or
"Here's a BIG prediction....Magic and his team will find, in 6 months or less, that he will have to have a real tax cut aimed at the top 20%, dramatically cut corporate taxes, extend Bush's tax cuts or waive capital gains on 2009 (& perhaps 2010) investments."----Posted by HAPPYLonghorn at 01/22/2009 @ 8:49pm
Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 11:22am
The Demoncrats are showing their "true colors" on this one!
Nancy Pelosi Speaker of the House of Representatives, SUPPOSEDLY representing the intrest of the American people goes on tape actually saying the the Americans dissenting against her totalitarian abuses and socialistic healthcare she wants to ram down everyones throat are wearing SWASTIKA armbands!
Keep up the good work Demoncrats and there will be NONE of you in the U.S. congress or Presidency next election cycle!!!!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 11:42am
Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 11:42am
Interesting....link to that "quote"?
Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 11:53am
The bizarre Democrat reaction to their own constituents -- the ones they invited to Congressional town hall meetings -- morphed yesterday from the realm of the strange into the far reaches of the Twilight Zone. Average, everyday Americans are showing up at Democrat Congressional town hall events across the country to voice their frustration with the far left liberal agenda being stampeded through Congress by the Democrat majority.
Mostly comprised of seniors and veterans, these large crowds at the town hall meetings are actually reading the healthcare bill and asking the tough questions. Democrats are stunned that these Americans are angry about being lied to about the government takeover of healthcare.
Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 12:01pm
HAPP only bets on sure things, sr....like-
...
Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 11:22am | ignore this person | warn this person
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. least self-aware statement in the history of The Nation. tell me a "bet" you've ever offered or tried to shove down other posters' throats that you didn't think you were guaranteed to win?
--go ahead and tell your opinion re: what the health care policy SHOULD be for the u.s. politics aside, what do you think would be best for the american people?
--here's a bet: Mask WON'T ANSWER!
Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 12:02pm
Pelosis on YouTube under "Nanci Pelosi Says Townhall Protesters Carry Swastikas"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaC-uMzvKKM
Cute for a totalitarian to accuse others!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 12:09pm
--here's a bet: Mask WON'T ANSWER!
Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 12:02pm
You lose....
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/ jstreet/459372/ how_the_tea_baggers_are_like_act_up
Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 12:21pm
Exactly; America, the complacent nation. All those who bought into our access to endless resources lost their souls while getting 12 miles a gallon.
Posted by ficheye at 08/05/2009 @ 7:36pm | ignore this person | warn this person
They just didn't (and don't) care. And you know what? It's going to happen again...a nice legacy to leave our children, grandchildren and their children (if the planet lasts that long).
Posted by jarshadow at 08/06/2009 @ 12:32pm
Yes, Pelosi did say that. ( 10 site fact check).
However, after what I witnessed at the teabag rally in Washington state, it is very possible that she saw at least one person with a swastika drawn on a protest placard. I personally saw swastikas at our capital.
She said "... they were carrying swastikas and things like that..."
Many right wing bloggers jumped on this and are trying to twist it into another context. One blogger wrote: "You can't carry a swastika... it has to be printed on something!", which is a moronic remark. You CAN carry a swastika if you just drew one on your protest sign.
Most politicians misspeak on occasion. Did she misspeak if she saw even one swastika? I'd say no. But the conservative hatred of what they view a 'socialistic' medicine is morphing into a childish obsession with minutia which is embarrassing to observe. Pelosi has her issues, but so do many of the people speaking out against any health care reform.
What this really shows, of course, is the deep frustration that conservatives have after losing an election so badly. So we see the playground tactics of shouting down the debate so they can't hear it at all.
Posted by ficheye at 08/06/2009 @ 12:44pm
--here's a bet: Mask WON'T ANSWER!
Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 12:02pm
You lose....
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/ jstreet/459372/ how_the_tea_baggers_are_like_act_up
Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 12:21pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--I most certainly did not lose. You didn't answer the question. The question being: what "system" would you support re: health care? saying you want it to be "affordable" is not supporting a "system".
And I also just addressed your post on that thread.
so yet again--feel free to answer the question. what system do you want in place re: health care? since you seem to have tremendous trouble coming up with an answer in your own words, I'll give you some ideas to get the ball rolling....
-abolish any and all existing gov't sponsored/run programs (e.g. medicare/mediaid, etc) and let the private sector handle health care totally
-leave the system as is?
-public option?
-universal?
(don't limit yourself to exactly these choices, naturally. if you have a different idea in mind feel free to offer it...but here's the thing: offer something. give your opinion on which system you'd wnat in place if you were in control and there'd be no political downside to your choice).
will mask finally state his opinion on this?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 12:50pm
I'm getting a kick out of the fact that after the Obamanation and Demoncrats blatantly LIED about everything during the election process in 2006 and 2008 the American public is finally waking up and dumping on them and will just plain dump them in 2010 and 2012!
You can't buy the overt reactions of working, retired, and veterens who were "duped" by the LIES and gross misrepresentations of the Demoncrat party.
You can't buy the rage of 9,000,000 unemployed ordinary Americans passed over by the Demoncrats who rewarded Union supporters, Banks, and Wallstreet with over a TRILLON dollars in bailouts and POLITICAL PAYOFFS!
You can't buy the miscreant authoritarian elitism of Pelose DISENFRANCHISING the republican representatives of 48% of the American voters by SHUTTING them out of representing these voters by overturning House Rules in place for 200 years!
It is all golden!
Like I said " Don't ask for whom the bell toils, it toil for thee (Demoncrats)" (thanks Ernest)
Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 1:13pm
Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 12:50pm
Okay, do it here too...since we can't go back to more "free market" approaches, since it's political unviable for the Right
and since we're doomed to single-payer, but it's political unviable right now for the Left, use incrementalism to get to it.
Once we get it, it's not going to be "wonderful, fantastic" as "The Nation" folks think....but it's better than what we have now.
Now...going to keep jumping threads or have you answered what YOUR solutions are on the other thread you're bird-dogging me on?
Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 1:40pm
Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 1:13pm
Something doesn't add up, RIO...
why will "authoritarians/totalitarians"...
allow themselves to be voted out of office in 2010 and 2012? Is that normal SOP for dictators????
Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 1:42pm
Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 12:50pm
Okay, do it here too...since we can't go back to more "free market" approaches, since it's political unviable for the Right
and since we're doomed to single-payer, but it's political unviable right now for the Left, use incrementalism to get to it.
Once we get it, it's not going to be "wonderful, fantastic" as "The Nation" folks think....but it's better than what we have now.
Now...going to keep jumping threads or have you answered what YOUR solutions are on the other thread you're bird-dogging me on?
Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 1:40pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--so if you had the choice of what system would be in place you would want a free market for health care (does that mean you'd want a totally free market getting rid of any gov't health care like medicare/medicaid or would you still want those)?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 1:57pm
Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 1:57pm
Are we talking rationally again?...Cool.
No, I think we could have implemented SOME reforms to keep Medicare active and private insurance from doing exactly what opponents of "Government-run" health care...i.e. rationing and deny coverage....but that was 30 years ago, not today.
The problem was (again) you had Democrats like Kennedy who wanted single-payer...and Republicans who wanted to eliminate Medicare (at first...now it's political suicide despite their proclaimed hatred of "socialized medicine")....and nothing was done, except expanding that....leaving Big Insurance alone...and letting costs escalate.
We can't go "free market" or else you have to eliminate Medicare, unless you have some means of "isolating" it from day-to-day costs.
We can't ignore the problem...even Repubs see that (when they're out of power of course).
And single-payer is a non-starter politically.
So...incremental reform is all that's left.
Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 2:49pm
Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 2:49pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--for some reason you keep ignoring what I'm asking and keep talking about what has happened or what you think practically has to happen in the future.
all I'm asking is: presume that you get to choose whatever system you think will work best for the american people. politics is irrelevant. whatever system you want will be put in place.
what system would you choose? WILL YOU ANSWER THIS QUESTION?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 3:23pm
I'm sorry that so many of the comments on this board are incoherent or off-point. I found the article excellent, not as a critique of all Republicans or every Republican strategy, but as a critique of those Republicans the author is focusing on, i.e., those who are doing things like portraying Obama as the Joker -- the extremist conservatives who appear to be doing everything they can to avoid debate about the actual issues involved in health-care reform in order to prevent any kind of change. The strategy of using these kinds of portrayals of the president, as well as shouting down town hall meetings, hanging congressmen in effigy, and other outrageous tactics are indeed a continuation of the Bushian, post-modern notion of politics in which there is no such thing as "reality," only power, and so politics is not about debating the merits of issues but simply about winning. They've shown great success using this method in the past -- getting Bush elected twice, pushing the Iraq War and repeated tax cuts for the rich, denying global warming, and continually undermining any attempt at improving social programs, including even extending children's health care becuase it might hurt the health insurance companies(!). But now that we have a clear majority in both houses of Congress, a Democratic president, and a large majority of the population who support change, there is only one way for them to win, and that is, as the author argues, to sow chaos -- don't let the issues out onto the table, squelch discussion, inspire fear, use irrelevant words like "socialism" -- anything to avoid a substantive debate. I'd like to see some of the writers actually address these issues rather than hurl epithets -- much like the people the author is writing about.
Posted by franksheed at 08/06/2009 @ 4:01pm
I agree, for the most part, with your feelings Frank. But I still think that the article wasn't that well written, even though I agree with the points that she's making. Maybe it's because I didn't like that movie that much. It was also about 1/2 hour too long.
I didn't really think the comment about the white southerners was a good choice. I think that the problem with the 'birthers' is far more widespread with regards to that.
And in reference to the 'chaos'... it's definitely hard to have any debate, even here, where no one is in your face shouting you down. This chaos is, indeed, becoming viral. The socialist talk is annoying... but I think that's the point. Again the application of chaos through the fine art of needling your opponent.
Posted by ficheye at 08/06/2009 @ 4:34pm
A political career doesn't mean perpetual candidate, like an Alan Keyes. It means winning an election to a significant office.
I'll bet that Palin is unable to win a significant elected office....during the next ten years. If she were to win an election to a significant elected office, I'll make a $1,000 contribution to her re-election campaign.
But, I'll only make this bet if you put some skin in the game yourself. If Palin fails to win this office, then you (or your estate) will make a $1,000 contribution to the Presidential campaign fund for the Green party....
I take for granted that you are a man of your word, and if you make the bet, you'll make good on it - and expect the same.
Posted by srjenkins at 08/06/2009 @ 11:07am
I caught you mouthing off, hehehe.... Forced you to qualify your "Her political career is over" with the above post.
When I pulled this, my first thought was Palin could easily be appointed to some position when the GOP regains the WH. Sure enough, that's the first `ass' you covered....good job!
Your next CYA is to demand that "political career" must equal winnining a future election! Now, is that intellectually honest?
Of course, you also knew you were left hanging a long, long time as Palin is fairly young....just had a baby not long ago, huh? So, you added "next 10 year"...
LOL!
You will have lost the bet the next time Palin is out doing something "political".
I'll let it go this time.....but you can make a small donation to The Nation to support their being good host.....just let us know about it.
Posted by Happy at 08/06/2009 @ 9:27pm
Cool article, infectious topic. The intense, dark, personal flavor of many of the posts attests to the power and reality of the subject. Maybe, not sure, doesn't matter.
This does. Like the photo of an actor decorated by, photographed by, hyped by, distributed by the MSM, so too the joker antics are - made real. A better term is swiftboated. Thousands of thousands of hours on thousands of channels, the drum beat. CONTINUES.
The real democracy destroying jokers therefore remain same as it ever was:
National Amusements - Viacom, CBS, Time Warner, News Corp, Sony, General Electric, Hearst Corporation.
To the delight of all lovers of Cheney, each and every fed the red meat base the stuff of the birthers, Gates, Obama-Muslim comments, and all similar propaganda. And will continue to do so.
Posted by winyahn at 08/06/2009 @ 11:21pm
Posted by Happy at 08/06/2009 @ 9:27pm
Not really. I'm excluding what you obviously intended, which was to call something a "political career" where Palin is a perpetual candidate with less chance of winning than a third party candidate, gets a show on Fox, heads the RNC, gets appointed to the board of the FCC, wins a mayoral race to some po-dunk town, works for a right-wing lobby on K Street, etc. I'm also clarifying that I mean winning a significant elected office when I say "political career".
Since she made it to the national stage, she should be able to win either a national office or a sizable state or local executive position to be considered to have a "political career". You want to leave the terms undefined so you can claim a "political career" when there isn't one. By defining them, I show how little there is to your bet. The only people that think Palin has a chance are people are people like sjchermak that think everyone's opinion is the same and have no regard for facts or reality.
Posted by srjenkins at 08/06/2009 @ 11:28pm
Posted by Happy at 08/06/2009 @ 9:27pm
Also, I included a 10 year limit because I'm about as interested in tracking Palin's future career as I am in tracking other conservative "stars" like Oliver North, which is to say I'm not. If she can't do anything in ten years, she's not going to be worth tracking anyway. Her window of opportunity might extend two election cycles, but I doubt even that.
However, I'm open to any arguments you have why we need to keep watching Palin and why I need to extend this window.
Posted by srjenkins at 08/06/2009 @ 11:37pm
I must admit that Palin has a merit: she exudes candor in what she says. I mean, she tells "her truth" with total honesty. Which is light-miles from truth really. Nevertheless, that is valued very much by those rednecks with rancor towards the cultivated coasts. But that is not enough to win anything, if she would add to that feature real maturity and thoughtfulness then she could be the candidate of the right. It escapes her character, community organizer for Reps, that's the best she can do.
Not in a thousand years she would win even a toss up state. But Alabama or Wyoming she surely can. She would not stand a chance with a Dem. But she could surely galvanize the South. Those guys, they don't even know what they vote for.
Posted by Frank42 at 08/06/2009 @ 11:50pm
"Top White House officials counseled Democratic senators Thursday on coping with disruptions at public events on health care this summer, officials said, and promised the party and allies would respond with twice the force if any individual lawmaker is criticized in television advertising."
Get ready for the nazis leftist STORMTROOPERS coming your way soon! The Unions, Code Pink, ACORN, and all the others are coming!
They will be fully equiped to take on the 15,000,000 unemployed, grandma and grandpa, and all those filthy Veterens and American taxpayers that are against the socialist federal takeover of healthcare by the Obamanation and the Demoncrats!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/07/2009 @ 03:15am
Posted by BigPasture at 08/07/2009 @ 03:15am
Apparently, BigPasture likes the old ways where individual lawmakers and Presidents greeted audiences already pre-selected to ensure there would be no disruptions or criticisms and the STORMTROOPERS were taking people at night to secret, undisclosed locations and torturing them, rather than charging people for a "crime".
Why do you hate freedom so much?
Posted by srjenkins at 08/07/2009 @ 07:42am
Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 3:23pm
Oh, I'm sorry...we're playing a sixth grader's game of "Wouldn't it be cool if...."
Okay, "Wouldn't it be cool if" we could go back to the old days of paying Ol' Doc Jensen straight out of pocket and maybe with a few fresh eggs from the henhouse for his house-call.
But given that isn't going to happen, at this point, I feel incremental reforms towards single-payer will happen and nothing can stop it, so why play kids' games.
Posted by Mask at 08/07/2009 @ 08:05am
Mask--it's NOT a "kid's game" to anonymously comment under a blog trying to catch other anonymous commenters in ‘gotcha' moments? (rhetorical question). You're saying how you post is a "man's game" or somehow mature or useful? (also rhetorical).
I'm asking you to pick a policy. Ignore politics and take a stand. Lincoln freed the slaves and it cost him half the country and got him killed. If you were alive then and his sole, trusted advisor and he asked you what you thought of the Emancipation Proclamation you would have said that it wasn't feasible in the political climate of the day. If he said, "forget politics, I just want to know if you think freeing slaves would be good for this country" you wouldn't answer him (unless you want to convince us that even though you won't give your opinion, anonymously, about the best health care policy, you'd go on the record with the President about your opinion re: slavery).
All I'm trying to get you to do is open up and say what health care system would be best for this country. Instead, this is what you say: "at this point, I feel incremental reforms towards single-payer will happen and nothing can stop it" But, and here's the important part, you don't say that you support what you think is inevitable. You don't say that you think a single-payer system is the best possible system. You simply state that you think it's going to happen. I'm asking you what you think would be the best possible system...but instead, you'll say something sarcastic (and what you think is cute) about paying for medical care with eggs. Yes, it "would be cool" if medical care was inexpensive. But it's not.
(continued to next post)…
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 10:21am
I'd like to say I find it astonishing that you're unwilling to say what system you think would be ideal--but after trying to get you to give your opinion for a few days now and you continuing to refuse to give it, I'm not surprised anymore. You don't want to express your opinion on the system that would work best, because that would require you to think of why you're choosing that system and that you might actually have to defend that system, and the worst situation in the world for an anonymous 'gotcha' poster like you is to imagine future threads where your statement is being used against you (I'm sure that's how you view other anonymous posters because that's how you treat other anonymous posters), so you choose to not say anything substantive at all.
And the funny thing is you've tried to make fun of me quite a few times over the past few weeks by saying I don't post "substance." Yeah right. I'm for universal health care, I think that's the best possible system of health care for this country. I've said so numerous times. You won't give your substantive position. Instead, you hide behind the cop out of merely saying what you think the current political climate will produce. If Lincoln had played it safe like you do he might have had a longer life, but he wouldn't be revered by many, rightfully so, as the best President this country has ever had.
Keep playing it safe Mask. It suits the moniker you've chosen well.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 10:23am
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 10:23am
Urmy, we're on our third thread and what? ninth or tenth post...where you and I AGREE on what the eventual health care plan of the United States will be....a single-payer and/or "european mold" plan for universal health care. We completely agree on that.
It's already apparent that your continueing demand of more from me...and little from any other posters, especially the right-wing posters....indicates an obsession with me and not the issue.
Posted by Mask at 08/07/2009 @ 10:41am
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 10:23am
Are you talking about Abraham Lincoln, the guy that thought Africans were mentally inferior, who countermanded the order to free slaves by two of his generals on the grounds that suppressing a rebellion did not entitle the Union to attack Southerner's private property, and who vetoed the Second Confiscation Act of July 1862 which would have freed all the slaves in rebel areas?
The same Abraham Lincoln that when he finally did get around to getting on the emancipation bandwagon, he favored stretching it out over decades and compensating slave owners for their loss and who issued the Emancipation Proclamation only after he became convinced that it was militarily necessary?
I'd say, if anything, Mask falls within the pragmatic Lincoln tradition of going with whatever seems expedient or practical at the time.
For more information, check out Lind's What Lincoln Believed, pgs, 173, 175-180.
Posted by srjenkins at 08/07/2009 @ 11:16am
Urmy, we're on our third thread and what? ninth or tenth post...where you and I AGREE on what the eventual health care plan of the United States will be....a single-payer and/or "european mold" plan for universal health care. We completely agree on that.
It's already apparent that your continueing demand of more from me...and little from any other posters, especially the right-wing posters....indicates an obsession with me and not the issue.
Posted by Mask at 08/07/2009 @ 10:41am | ignore this person | warn this person
--"will be" are the operative words you used in the first paragraph. You're not saying you think universal health care is the best system; you're still just saying that you think it inevitably will be the system in place.
what I'm asking is: do you think it SHOULD be the system? do you think it is the best possible system for the united states?
the right wing posters, like antisocialist, are clearly against single-payer option, never mind universal health care. I already know their position.
You haven't stated your position. You've only stated what you think will occur.
You know there's a difference between stating what you think will occur and stating your own position, right?
Keep your "Mask" on--it suits you
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 11:34am
"Are you talking about Abraham Lincoln, the guy that thought Africans were mentally inferior"
--yes, and my grandparents on both sides of my family (mother grew up in texas, father grew up in connecticut) were very racist. I grew up in connecticut and I recall visting my mother's family when I was 7 and my grandmother sitting me, and my 6 & 5 year old brothers down and telling us that the "spics" (i.e., mexicans) were winning the war against texas (not the united states) b/c of illegal immigration. i remember looking at my mom who was rolling her eyes and biting her tongue to not tell her mom to shut up. i recall watching the fresh prince of bel air at my pep's (my dad's dad) house with my brothers, were were around 10, 11, 12 years old, something like that, and he asked us, with sincerity, "you know you're watching a black family right?"
i loved all 4 of my grandparents, who have all been dead for quite some time, and realize as an adult that their prejudice didn't have to be mine. as pragmatic as lincoln's action may have been in certain cases, he was also fighting his own racism. that's what's to be applauded most.
and concerning mask--all he has to say, if it's what he truly believes, is that universal health care is the best system for the united states. i don't care if he believes it is or if he believes a free market is or whatever. i'm just trying to get him to state what system he thinks would be best. he refuses to do that.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 11:46am
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 11:34am
urmy, my "best of all worlds" on health care...doesn't exist anymore. Not since, again, ol' Doc Jensen stopped taking eggs for mending a broke leg.
As far as universal health care in a single-payer model goes....it won't be fantastic or Utopian...it MAY be better than what we have now, but probably not.
But it's going to happen regardless. So why indulge in fantasies?
Posted by Mask at 08/07/2009 @ 11:53am
But it's going to happen regardless.
Posted by Mask at 08/07/2009 @ 11:53am
yeah, when bristol palin takes office.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2009 @ 12:08pm
Mask: "my "best of all worlds" on health care...doesn't exist anymore. Not since, again, ol' Doc Jensen stopped taking eggs for mending a broke leg."
--did ol' doc Jensen ever takes eggs for hooking up a patient to a dialysis machine, or providing chemo treatments, or supplying AIDS medication? you're still dodging.
Mask: "As far as universal health care in a single-payer model goes....it won't be fantastic or Utopian...it MAY be better than what we have now, but probably not."
--getting closer to revealing how you feel re: health care policy. but in a way you're still dodging/hedging. you're saying saying universal may be better, but maybe not. so you're not taking a position. and if you don't have a position, or, in other words, you don't have an opinion on which would be better, that's fine. why not just say that from the beginning?
"But it's going to happen regardless. So why indulge in fantasies?"
--we're all anonymous commenters. what's "real" about this? it's a cop out to say stating your opinion is just a "fantasy." what, and everything else you write here, including your never-ending quest to catch other anonymous posters in "gotcha" moments--is substance? it's reality? c'mon.
any way, i'll take your position to be you don't have a position. and let you be. don't want you to fear for your child's pet because I'm tring to get you to answer a question. oh wait, that's a "fantasy" too.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 12:23pm
But it's going to happen regardless.
Posted by Mask at 08/07/2009 @ 11:53am
yeah, when bristol palin takes office.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2009 @ 12:08pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--frosty, are you challenging Mask on one of his projections (I won't dare call it a "position")?
how dare you!
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 12:25pm
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 11:34am
I'm reading this discussion. I agree with your point that Mask sometimes spends too much time in cutting down the other guy rather than forwarding his own position.
But, on the other hand, I think talking about how the world should work and using that as some kind of standard is also a weak position. We could all go about laying out a Plato's Republic, but if it cannot be made actual, what is the point?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 11:46am
"...as pragmatic as lincoln's action may have been in certain cases, he was also fighting his own racism."
You're being overly generous. I'd argue that Lincoln was concerned primarily about preserving the Union, and he was not involved in a project of fighting his own racism. That's an anarchonistic rethinking of history.
"...i'm just trying to get him to state what system he thinks would be best..."
Some people don't look at the world this way. They look at the world and ask, "what would be better?" or "what can be done?" For these people, talking about ideal systems is a waste of time.
For Mask, you see this kind of thinking across the board. He frequently talks about third party candidates as questions of "purity", futility, or in the worse case, a way to fragment politics to the point that diametrically opposed ideologies assume power.
All of these critiques have some truth to them, but it also has the tunnel vision that is characteristic of the pragmatic outlook. But, idealists have the same problem - most notably in mistaking how they would like the world to be with how the world actually is.
So, I guess I'm suggesting that you don't see Mask's approach as necessarily a failing. It's just different.
Posted by srjenkins at 08/07/2009 @ 12:58pm
"So, I guess I'm suggesting that you don't see Mask's approach as necessarily a failing. It's just different."-----Posted by srjenkins at 08/07/2009 @ 12:58pm
Given urmy and I agree on the final outcome of health care in this country...
I think his continueing tete-a-tete has almost nothing to do with the issue at all...but something else.
Posted by Mask at 08/07/2009 @ 1:17pm
srjenkins: "I'm reading this discussion. I agree with your point that Mask sometimes spends too much time in cutting down the other guy rather than forwarding his own position."
--delete "sometimes" and my response is, "gee, ya think?"
srjenkins: "But, on the other hand, I think talking about how the world should work and using that as some kind of standard is also a weak position. We could all go about laying out a Plato's Republic, but if it cannot be made actual, what is the point?"
--asking someone to posit what they think the best health care system is not asking that this board become a polly-anna Eden where we all sing kumbaya. all i'm was doing was asking for his position. is that unfair?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 1:18pm
srjenkins: "You're being overly generous. I'd argue that Lincoln was concerned primarily about preserving the Union, and he was not involved in a project of fighting his own racism. That's an anarchonistic rethinking of history."
--I think you mean "anachronistic" and there's no anachronism in my argument. If you want to say it's a "rethinking of history" that's cool, although I don't agree. If assuaging his own racism was Lincoln's concern I'd argue he'd have let the south cedede and leave it be.
srjenkins: "Some people don't look at the world this way. They look at the world and ask, "what would be better?" or "what can be done?" For these people, talking about ideal systems is a waste of time."
--if you have a position on what the best system would be, that could help you answer those two questions.
srjenkins: "For Mask, you see this kind of thinking across the board. He frequently talks about third party candidates as questions of "purity", futility, or in the worse case, a way to fragment politics to the point that diametrically opposed ideologies assume power."
--yes, and quite often the difference between them and Mask is they give a position.
srjenkins: "So, I guess I'm suggesting that you don't see Mask's approach as necessarily a failing. It's just different."
--the only "failing" in Mask's responses to my question is that he said he was giving his position. He wasn't. He was merely stating what he thinks will occur. there's a big difference.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 1:34pm
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 1:18pm
"all i'm was doing was asking for his position. is that unfair?"
It is when he says, "...incremental reform is all that's left," at 08/06/2009 @ 2:49pm and you continue to ask for his position.
He's answered your question. He believes health care is broken and that incremental reform is the only way to change it. While he doesn't explicitly state it, it also appears that successful reform, to him, will be any measure that successfully controls costs, and in order for any reform to do that, it has to pass as legislation - which he seems to believe is going to result in an incremental implementation of a public system.
He's solving a different problem than you. He's concerned about controlling health care costs and looking at actual legislation that might do that. You want to look at the best way to deliver health care. While these questions overlap, they are not the same question. And the crux of the issue is that he is not interested in your question.
This leaves me asking: (1) Why should Mask (or anyone) be more interested in your question? (2) What is the benefit of thinking about an ideal system of health care? (3) How do you make your ideal system actual?
Rather than berate Mask, you might want to rethink what is going on in your exchange and maybe acknowledge he has a point - as good a point as yours that it is important to know where you want to end up when implementing incremental change.
Posted by srjenkins at 08/07/2009 @ 1:37pm
"So, I guess I'm suggesting that you don't see Mask's approach as necessarily a failing. It's just different."-----Posted by srjenkins at 08/07/2009 @ 12:58pm
Given urmy and I agree on the final outcome of health care in this country...
I think his continueing tete-a-tete has almost nothing to do with the issue at all...but something else.
Posted by Mask at 08/07/2009 @ 1:17pm | ignore this person | warn this person
---I've taken a position. Mask is just succumbing to the inevitable. heheh
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 1:46pm
I wrote: "all i'm was doing was asking for his position. is that unfair?"
srjenkins: "It is when he says, "...incremental reform is all that's left," at 08/06/2009 @ 2:49pm and you continue to ask for his position."
--"incremental reform" is not him stating what he thinks would be the best system. "incremental reform" are the steps to the "inevitability" he speaks of (but doesn't explicitly say he supports).
srjenkins: "He's answered your question."
--he finally did. in the most wishy-washy way possible.
srjenkins: "He believes health care is broken and that incremental reform is the only way to change it. While he doesn't explicitly state it, it also appears that successful reform, to him, will be any measure that successfully controls costs, and in order for any reform to do that, it has to pass as legislation - which he seems to believe is going to result in an incremental implementation of a public system."
--if that's his opinion would it be difficult for him to write that? also, that still wouldn't be responsive to my actual question, which could have taken him a sentence or two and 30 seconds to answer (which he finally did, in a wishy-washy way that didn't actually take a stance).
srjenkins: "He's solving a different problem than you."
--what's he "solved"? and saying it's an "inevitability" is hardly an action, "solving" word. sounds like he's sitting back and taking whatever's gonna happen.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 1:55pm
srjenkins: "He's concerned about controlling health care costs and looking at actual legislation that might do that. You want to look at the best way to deliver health care. While these questions overlap, they are not the same question."
--yes they overlap, big time. I don't know if you're putting words in Mask's mouth saying he's interested in controlling costs, but if he is, then my question about what's the best system is only the more legitimate and fair to ask. indeed, that's the main question: what health care system would provide teh best service/affordable cost model? there is plenty of disagreement about this. I think universal health care would strike the best balance. Mask made it obvious with his wishy-washy answer that he's not sure or doesn't want to share his opinion clearly.
srjenkins: "And the crux of the issue is that he is not interested in your question."
--the question is important. also, and this is the important part--he claimed over and over he was answering the question. he wasn't, until he finally did, in an extremely wishy-washy way. If he didn't want to answer it he could have said that from teh beginning too. but he didn't. he claimed he was answering my question, but he was being non-responsive.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 2:04pm
srjenkins: "This leaves me asking: (1) Why should Mask (or anyone) be more interested in your question?"
--answered in my above post.
srjenkins: "(2) What is the benefit of thinking about an ideal system of health care?"
--already answered but will answer again: the ideal system should be the goal, no? not knowing where you're going is a good place to get nowhere.
srjenkins: "(3) How do you make your ideal system actual?
--that's the rub. clearly a democratic president and a filibuster proof majority of democrats isn't enouugh to get it done right now.
srjenkins: "Rather than berate Mask"
--if I'm "berating" him then he's been guilty of the same for years on these threads. asking for an answer to a question is tnothing different than what he does all the time. yu see me cursing or ranting adn raving? no.
srjenkins: "you might want to rethink what is going on in your exchange and maybe acknowledge he has a point - as good a point as yours that it is important to know where you want to end up when implementing incremental change."
--same advice could be given to Mask.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 2:17pm
Posted by urmygyro at 08/07/2009 @ 2:17pm
Nothing much to add here. Mask's criticism is how do you make your ideal system actual? Yours is how can you have incremental change without a goal? Both questions are good ones. It comes down to focus and framing.
I guess my point in jumping in here is that while I think there are things to criticize in Mask's politics in general, I don't think slamming him for not having a plan is a valid approach. I think about it in software terms. Do you think Linus Torvalds had a plan that Linux would become this global operating system running on mobile phones and big iron? Or Bill Gates with Microsoft? Or the Founding Fathers with the US? A lot of things develop organically and having an incremental approach and staying on the immediate problems can be a good substitute for a larger strategy. I think that is a totally legitimate position.
Posted by srjenkins at 08/07/2009 @ 6:09pm
This all reminds me of a big circle jerk (with BigPasture and Happy as the pivot men.) As for rsjenkins and urmygyro - you two should meet up and have a slappy fight followed by a deep soul kiss. I think you two complete each other.
Posted by vaguelyinterested at 08/07/2009 @ 8:36pm
SRJ,
I read your second-round of `defenses' on "Her political career is over!"
Stubborn....but as I said I'd let you go this time....
I don't do "Gottchas" like MASK...not much fun in it even though any of us can spend full time doing just that on this blog! Life is full of contradictions.
Posted by Happy at 08/08/2009 @ 10:17am
From what we've seen it appears Obama is an empty suit mouthing Americanisms but attempting Marxisms. Americans are wising up and rejecting his nonsense. Trust the people, not some flannel-mouthed Chicago goon.
Posted by tucanofulano at 08/08/2009 @ 1:45pm
Well boys and girls are you having fun? The question is who can you trust? Should it be political theory ,ideology,or perhaps just common sense. We as Americans want to believe in someone or something. If people are covered ,under covered,or not covered by insurance what is the real cost. It seems to me, if you want to say that people have to work or pay their own way to have health care, i don't have a problem with that. At the same time however,should the cost be $50,$500,or$5000 annually.This is what the conservatives are painting this picture as. It is like an economics lesson without the economics. What is puzzling to me is the large numbers of people that are "demonstrating" at town hall meetings. Now how much juice have you drunk to not believe that health care costs have gone through the roof? You mean that none of these people have ever had problems with their health care provider? What gives here,how do you vote against your own interests?The debate is getting shaped by commercials not by reading up mon the issues. So let's figure out how to discuss things without coming up with a comment like attempting Marxisms when you don't what Marxism is.
Posted by whatizz at 08/08/2009 @ 3:00pm
When your kids ask you what you DID in 2009-2016 to make your country a better place, what are you going to tell them? That you protected WONDEFUL Barack Obama from EVIL Sarah Palin? And then you went and shopped at Whole Foods?
Is that what you're going to say?
That's impressive. At least you didn't create any jobs or teach anybody to read or even write your Congressperson that you wanted REAL health-care reform with Single Payer so EVERYBODY could have what some have.
At least you didn't protest against the wars and the expansion of the police state because that would just be "playing into the hands of the 'Conservatives,'" right?
I got to say. I'm pretty impressed. That's quite a series of accomplishments. I'm sure your kids will be real proud.
Posted by HebrewHePour at 08/09/2009 @ 1:30pm
I AM A CONSERVATIVE AMERICAN SHIT HEAD
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy.
I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility.
After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.
I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.
At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.
After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health administration...I log on to the internet -- which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration -- and post on Freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.
MORE:
http://tinyurl.com/nf4e23
Posted by judybrowni at 08/09/2009 @ 6:42pm
Posted by srjenkins at 08/07/2009 @ 6:09pm
Simple explanation from Jennifer Paige...
"It's just a little crush!"
heheh
Posted by Mask at 08/10/2009 @ 09:31am
The opposition knows the truth but chooses to confuse the gullible, easily deceived electorate mostly uneducated in the true meaning of democratic rights. Free speech does not entitle you to your own facts, though it may entitle you to your opinion. Nor does it give you the right to stop others from being heard by shouting them down and disrupting venues for public discourse. There is a fundamental problem: It is the people vs. corrupt corporatocracy--THE PEOPLE V. CORRUPT CORPORATE POWER IN HEALTH CARE DEBATE. That is our fundamental problem and challenge! President Eisenhower, in his farewell speech (01/17/61) warned about an aspect of this power in the context of "the military-industrial complex." During the colonial era, metropolitan military power followed commerce. In the post-colonial time, multi-national corporations enlisted "economic hit men," super and seconderate-power resources, including the World Bank and IMF to protect corporate interests abroad (Note: John Perkin' Confessions of An Economic Hit Man, and The Secret History of the American Empire--all New York Times Bestsellers). When challenged, big corporations fight furiously and amorally to protect their near monopoly and entrenched profits. That is the phenomenon we are witnessing today through the incitement to violence and hooliganism that is now defining the debate on health care. In this, even members of Congress have become captives. The corporate operators aim to confuse, complicate matters, disrupt, intimidate and bribe to get the people to work against their best interests. Big healthcare corporations don't want the searchlight of an informed debate; th
Posted by drsam8 at 08/10/2009 @ 10:58am
Obama is nothing more than a well spoken juvenile, who never had to GROW UP due to the fact that he stayed latched to the gov't nipple, from cradle to grave ( just like his boy, Bill Ayers, who makes me laugh every time I see him due to his childish earrings and youthful attire better suited for an indoctrinated teenager. Both these little biches will never grow up. Only in America, can 2 whimps, who've never worked a REAL JOB in their life, becaome so powerful or financially successful. If my children grow up to be anything like them, I'll dis-own them out of pure shame. Nancy Pelosi is an egotistical-psychopath at odds with the left's bumber-sticker slogan, "protest is patriotic". I'd say something bad about Biden, but just his very existence is such a joke, there's nothing more i can add to it! The Dem. party has blown their opportunity, and if any of you think that these Americans who are standing up to the "lowlife-racist-in-chief" and his " astro-turf" are going away, think again. The dumb-ass-in-chief has caused more division in his first 5 months, than any pres. in history. I wish him the worst!
Posted by barry25 at 08/10/2009 @ 3:16pm
whatizz, marxism is a way to destroy competition, freedom, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness by forcing one individual to support another! Marxism takes "life' out of "life" which is what most pussy-ass-liberals want because they are lifelong "moochers"! Pathetic
Posted by barry25 at 08/10/2009 @ 3:22pm
Posted by drsam8 at 08/10/2009 @ 10:58am
True. And let's take heart, Big Corp, Big Media didn't want HealthCare to ever become a topic/legislative priority. Didn't want anyone besides a Bush III this time around.
How does anything positive happen in your view?
Posted by winyahn at 08/10/2009 @ 9:18pm
These characters are not the kind of conservative that I can recognize. I remember conservatives with brains like Dwight Eisenhower, Margaret Chase Smith, William Buckley, William Cohen. This new breed of politicians seem entirely owned by large amounts of money with an ability to appeal to the lowest common denominator without souls. A group of mindless androids on binary control like drones being controlled by Wall street. There is no clear party identity. The stench cuts across both parties
Posted by julien38 at 08/10/2009 @ 9:41pm
I AM A CONSERVATIVE AMERICAN SHIT HEAD Posted by judybrowni at 08/09/2009 @ 6:42pm | ignore this person | warn this person
No, you are liberal or marxist UnAmerican and apparently a selfmade plain fool!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/10/2009 @ 11:14pm