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While the Obama administration's getting serious about healthcare reform, it's time for a rather pointed reading comprehension test.
Consider the following story and find, if you can, the obvious problem:
The Swiss drug company Novartis will not give free vaccines against H1N1 flu to poor countries -- it will only consider discounts.
Novartis's refusal comes in the wake of a request from the Director General of the World Health Organization, Dr. Margaret Chan, who has called for drug companies to show solidarity with poor countries as they develop vaccines against the H1NI or "swine flu" pandemic.
Just by way of reminder, H1N1 has infected around 30,000 people globally, mostly in North America, though there have been a few deaths outside Mexico and the United States. Europe suffered its first death on Sunday. The first has just been reported in Argentina.
Help the poor prevent a pandemic? Novartis said 'No'. That's Novartis --makers of Exedrin and Bufferin -- I guess they haven't made enough off those over-the-counter best-sellers.
"If you want to make production sustainable, you have to create financial incentives," explained Novartis Chief Executive Daniel Vasella.
By "financial incentives" he means the 'p' word: profits.
Spot the flaw in the profit-driven approach to health care? Anyone?
Financial incentives?
When a pandemic isn't incentive enough -- I'd say we have another 'p' word -- a problem.
Laura Flanders is the host of GRITtv which broadcasts weekdays on satellite TV (Dish Network Ch. 9415 Free Speech TV) on cable, public television and online at GRITtv.org and TheNation.com
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Well, Ms Flanders, isn't the key part there "the SWISS drug company Novartis"?
What exactly are we in the United States supposed to do about a company based in Basel, Switzerland?
Posted by Mask at 06/17/2009 @ 07:56am
What exactly are we in the United States supposed to do about a company based in Basel, Switzerland?
Posted by Mask at 06/17/2009 @ 07:56am
ask the german banks.
Posted by frosty zoom at 06/17/2009 @ 09:02am
It's not like they took a TARP loan.
Posted by snowball666 at 06/17/2009 @ 08:42am
no, but their bankers did even better than that.
Posted by frosty zoom at 06/17/2009 @ 09:07am
i suppose if the swiss franc were on par with the botswana pula..
Posted by frosty zoom at 06/17/2009 @ 09:10am
The pula is the currency of Botswana.
It has the ISO 4217 code BWP and is subdivided into 100 thebe.
Pula literally means "rain" in Setswana, because rain is very scarce in Botswana.
Pula also means "blessing" as rain is considered a blessing. Thebe means "shield".
<i>qwiki</i>
Posted by frosty zoom at 06/17/2009 @ 09:12am
snow,
perhaps this has implications for you:
"New Strain of Swine Flu Discovered in Brazil Wednesday, June 17, 2009"
good idea to keep a watchful eye on a creaturecito that was able to jump from piggies to us.
cross your toes. the "media" makes it out to be SCARY but the doctors are just trying to get us to be cautious.
as to the drug company, i bet if the fan gets really messy, arrangements will be made to facilitate the distribution of any vaccine.
though i bet the cubans would develop a vaccine faster with a little of that aig "money".
where's ponti?
Posted by frosty zoom at 06/17/2009 @ 09:23am
ask the german banks.----Posted by frosty zoom at 06/17/2009 @ 09:02am
Okay, FROST...what do we ask them?
Posted by Mask at 06/17/2009 @ 09:27am
Even IF Novartis gives away, or sell at cost, its vaccines, I am not so sure that's the right medical response.
This so-called "pandemic", with such catastrophic results as the first death in Europe and Argentina after months of media hype.....just doesn't cut it.
Be real, we have a much bigger "pandemic" of folks going overboard on cruise ships......3 in just one month!
Besides, the more we use less-than-fool-proof vaccines, only allows the virus to mutate into something more deadly.
Posted by Happy at 06/17/2009 @ 09:28am
"If you want to make production sustainable, you have to create financial incentives," explained Novartis Chief Executive Daniel Vasella"
Say, isn't this the same argument against health care reform? If you want to make health care sustainable.........
Posted by OneVote at 06/17/2009 @ 10:30am
'Dr. Gillian Taylor: Don't tell me you don't use money in the 23rd Century.
Kirk: Well we don't.'
-- Star Trek IV, The Voyage Home
Posted by HonestLiberal at 06/17/2009 @ 11:11am
to vulcan!
Posted by frosty zoom at 06/17/2009 @ 11:34am
Uh, FROSTY....again, what are we supposed to ask the "German bankers"?
Posted by Mask at 06/17/2009 @ 12:32pm
Ms Flanders never misses an opportunity to rail against capitalism, in any form, and in any country.
And as has been pointed out in this instance, against a non event. this phony hysteria created by WHO is just more evidence of why conservatives and libertarians advocate the US having no involvement in these organizations.
Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 12:49pm
"... is just more evidence of why conservatives and libertarians advocate the US having no involvement in these organizations."----Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 12:49pm
Except when you need "he violated 17 UNITED NATIONS resolutions" to bolster a case for war...
or "because the LEAGUE OF NATIONS said that's what Israel's borders should be".
Right, Larry?
Posted by Mask at 06/17/2009 @ 1:26pm
posted by LAURA FLANDERS on 06/17/2009 @ 06:33am
It would require a ratified international treaty or convention that caused signatory nations to automatically legally compel companies based in their territories to provide medications for free to the WHO when the WHO declares a pandemic to address the Novartis issue.
While I support such a convention - and while I believe such a convention is feasible considering how easily nations pass "free" trade treaties - I don't know what the US could do in the short run to get Novartis to provide free N1H1 medicines. Novartis of course should be voluntarily assisting in combating the pandemic, but when was the last time we heard of a pharmaceutical company being anything other than evil and greedy until compelled by law to be otherwise.
Posted by syfriendly at 06/17/2009 @ 1:39pm
"... is just more evidence of why conservatives and libertarians advocate the US having no involvement in these organizations."----Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 12:49pm
Except when you need "he violated 17 UNITED NATIONS resolutions" to bolster a case for war...
or "because the LEAGUE OF NATIONS said that's what Israel's borders should be".
Right, Larry?
Posted by Mask at 06/17/2009 @ 1:26pm
1. I've repeatedly stated that Bush did not need to go to the UN nor did we need to cite the 17 UN resolutions as a justification to resume hostilities against Iraq.
2. The San Remo Conference has the effect of being an international treaty accord that is absent the modern politicizing whereby 3rd world countries control the actions.
Also, as I've noted in a number of recent posts; Israel is THE ONLY NATION that has ever existed on that land area. It is also the only nation that has declared Jerusalem to be it's capital. That is a fact of history that all of your jihadist support cannot change.
3. My comments were more specifically directed towards WHO, the International Criminal Court (which the US has recognized as a nonentity as regards the US), and the UN which hardly resembles anything even close to the legitimacy of the League of Nations (even with all of it's problems).
4. If you and your Arab friends don't accept the San Remo Conference Treaty and the League of Nations Resolution approving it, how then do you support the existence of Syria, Iraq, Lebannon, Jordan, and Egypt which were also created out of this accord? So it's fine for creating the Arab Nations, but not the Jewish one?
Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 1:49pm
Mask, I left out one other country created from San Remo; Saudi Arabia
Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 1:56pm
And as has been pointed out in this instance, against a non event. this phony hysteria created by WHO is just more evidence of why conservatives and libertarians advocate the US having no involvement in these organizations.
Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 12:49pm
But "phony hysteria" rejection by our allies (the coalition of the unwilling) on Iraq WMD causes you to hold them in contempt? Strange.
Posted by OneVote at 06/17/2009 @ 2:25pm
but when was the last time we heard of a pharmaceutical company being anything other than evil and greedy until compelled by law to be otherwise.
Posted by syfriendly at 06/17/2009 @ 1:39pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Ask Montel Williams Sy. That "pill bus" making the rounds in a country the size of the US - why a person could very well die waiting for help. Maybe that's the idea.
Posted by OneVote at 06/17/2009 @ 2:29pm
But "phony hysteria" rejection by our allies (the coalition of the unwilling) on Iraq WMD causes you to hold them in contempt? Strange.
Posted by OneVote at 06/17/2009 @ 2:25pm
you mean contempt like the finding of the documents showing Saddam's bribery of Russia and France? The illegal sales of banned weapons and other war equipment by Russia, Germany, France, and China in the months prior to the war?
Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 2:38pm
2. The San Remo Conference has the effect of being an international treaty accord that is absent the modern politicizing whereby 3rd world countries control the actions.----Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 1:49pm
Yes, Heaven forbid they get to decide their own fates! They're such children.
Posted by Mask at 06/17/2009 @ 3:08pm
Yes, Heaven forbid they get to decide their own fates! They're such children.
Posted by Mask at 06/17/2009 @ 3:08pm
You didn't answer my question. Since you don't accept San Remo:
how then do you support the existence of Syria, Iraq, Lebannon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt which were also created out of this accord? So it's fine for creating the Arab Nations, but not the Jewish one?
Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 3:23pm
you mean contempt like the finding of the documents showing Saddam's bribery of Russia and France? The illegal sales of banned weapons and other war equipment by Russia, Germany, France, and China in the months prior to the war?
Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 2:38pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I trying to remember if that was in Colin Powell's address to UN?
Posted 9/8/2005 6:40 PM
Powell calls pre-Iraq U.N. speech a 'blot' on his record
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Former Secretary of State Colin Powell said Thursday his prewar speech to the United Nations accusing Iraq of harboring weapons of mass destruction was a "blot" on his record.
USAToday.com
Posted by OneVote at 06/17/2009 @ 3:34pm
'As the summer wore on, Cheney struck an urgent, unequivocal tone in public.
"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction," the vice president told veterans assembled at an Opryland hotel in Nashville'
Posted 9/2/2005 3:59 PM
Piecing together the story of the weapons that weren't
By Charles J. Hanley, The Associated Press
USAToday.com
"Phony Hysteria Manufacturing" 101.
Posted by OneVote at 06/17/2009 @ 3:42pm
Uninsured - Prescription Drug Program Prescription assistance program expands to Florida
Health Care
Naples Daily News
LIZ FREEMAN
5/11/2005
epfreeman@naplesnews.com
Uninsured Floridians squeezed in the pocketbook for prescription medications can get relief now in Florida. A national coalition, Partnership for Prescription Assistance, PPA Partnership for Prescription Assistance, which is focused on making it easy for uninsured individuals to get their prescription medications free or at a discounted price, launched in the state on Tuesday.
Needy residents have two options for getting help by either calling a toll-free number where telephone operators are available to guide people through the process or by accessing a Web site, which is user-friendly in Spanish or English.
Through the toll-free telephone number, the phone operators are available to communicate in 17 languages, said Albert Collazo, with the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, PhRMA, one of the organizations involved with the new coalition.
"The whole point of this initiative is to have a single point of access where patients can find easily 1,400 medications," he said.
AT A GLANCE
The program includes a Web site where people can get information, www.pparxfl.org, and a phone number, 1-888-477-2669, they can call.
Posted by OneVote at 06/17/2009 @ 3:56pm
Posted by OneVote at 06/17/2009 @ 3:42pm
<FP: Dave Gaubatz, Ryan Mauro and John Loftus, welcome to Frontpage Sympsoium.
Ryan Mauro, your site just recently ran the first videotaped testimony, never-before-seen, of Gen. Al-Tikriti (covered in silhouette and voice modified) discussing how Iraq had WMDs and Russia's role in removing them prior to the war.
Mauro: General Al-Tikriti was known as the "Butcher of Basra" and was a southern regional commander for Saddam Hussein, a friend of his. He defected shortly before the Gulf War but has maintained contacts inside Iraq ever since, including weapons scientists.
He has confirmed in previous interviews that Iraq sent nuclear scientists and technology to Libya in the mid-1990s to continue his WMD programs, and that Syria is the holding place for Iraqi WMD today. He said that he had first-hand knowledge of discussions between Iraq and Syria to send their weapons programs to the other for safe harbor, should either Baghdad or Damascus be threatened with occupation.
In this videotape, he has his voice modified and face blacked out. However, I have sources who were at the taping, and who confirmed with the Iraqi embassy that he is legit. In this tape, he confirms that Russia had a secret alliance with Iraq, and that plans were developed to remove WMD from Iraq before an invasion. The Russians obviously wanted to cover their tracks>
continued
Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 4:07pm
Russians and Iraq continued
<The release of documents found in Iraq could be promising as well. In one translated document, we see that the Chinese had information regarding a transfer to Syria, and asked the Germans, specifically Schroeder, about it, who dismissed the idea. Some of the best information and tips I've received have come from readers of my work, and hopefully, if anyone has additional information, they'll email me as well.
FP: John Loftus, a comment on the discussion thus far? And what fight do we have ahead now?
Loftus: What fight? I don't see anyone with a will to fight. Seems like this administration just surrendered to the Russians and Chinese on the Iran vote. The UN sanctions resolution against Iran will not even mention Chapter 42 military sanctions, only Chapter 41. It seems we need Russian votes so badly against Iran, that we are willing to "forget" Russian involvement in Iraq. Some of us remember.
"Someone" in Russia illegally moved advanced Kornet anti-tank missiles into Iraq just before the war. The only two Abrams tanks penetrated were due to these Russian-made hand-held Kornet misssiles. In violation of all international prohibitions against Arms trading with Iraq, the Russians sold Saddam the Kornet, the only missile capable of destroying American tanks.
The Americans used to own the night, due to our night vision equipment, but "someone" in Russia sold the latest version to the insurgents. The list of passive aggressive hostile actions goes on and on. In the first hour of the war, "someone" in Russia electronically jammed our Patriot anti-missile systems causing our rockets to go way of course.>
continued
Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 4:08pm
Russia and Iraq continued
<The Kremlin would have us believe that these incidents were caused by corrupt civilians, not by the Russian military. Of course, the Russians count as civilians anyone who temporarily swaps their uniform for civvies, such as the Spetznatz units in Iraq. Do the Russians think we are stupid?
Every senior member of a Western, European or Asian intelligence service whom I have ever met all agree that the Russians moved the last of the WMDs out of Iraq in the last few months before the war. A Syrian journalist who defected to Paris brought with him a map of where the Russians buried the WMDs. Our spy satellites confirmed a huge volume of military trucks and chemical trucks moving into Syria before the war. Do the Russians think we are stupid?
The Russians sold their WMD support to Saddam for oil. That is why Russia got more illegal oil payments from Saddam than all nations on earth combined. The Russians did for Saddam what they did for every Eastern European country they evacuated: they sent in Spetznatz units to shred all records of Russian involvement and truck the WMDs back to Russia.
The problem is only partly with a lazy and indolent media. The problem is that this State Department has decided that all Russian peccadillos must be overlooked for the greater good of preventing Iran from getting WMDs. I think Rumsfled was right when he said that we need an American desk at the State Department. I like Condi and I even liked Colin, but neither of them have tamed the beast of appeasement that dwells in foggy bottom. That is why nothing is ever done about Russian involvement in hiding Iraqi WMD, or anything else. This administration is begging the Russians for votes on Iran.>
cont.
Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 4:10pm
Without the free enterprise system, which enables successful companies to make a profit, we would not have all the various life-saving medicines that exist today.
It is the potential for eventual financial reward that compels a company to put time and invest money into all the research necessary, and trials, and unsuccesful attempts that have to be done, in order to reach the point where a successful formula is developed that works and helps the medical problem of concern.
Without the free enterprise system the pharmaceutical industry would not be anywere close in advancement to what currently exists. We would not even be close to having the various things that we take for granted.
But this is the classic capitalism vs. socialism argument, and no matter how many times this is argued, and no matter how much logic or facts or real-world examples of comparison between the two exist, many on the left just reject that and dream of a utopian existence that no one has ever been able to produce, and never will using socialist methods.
Libs will try to work people's emotions here, by implying that the product in question is medicine that would help people's health, and thus should be given away for free.
The problem in this case is that most everything that Novartis produces IS ALSO medicine. That other stuff may be for conditions other than the flu, but it is for medical conditions nonetheless, and I guess the company really should be giving that away free as well!!!
The company should give everything it makes away for free!!! They should be in business for free, and make no money at all, because it is wrong to make money by selling medicine people need.
This is the economics you learn when you spend time on The Nation website!
Posted by sjchermak at 06/17/2009 @ 4:20pm
What exactly are we in the United States supposed to do about a company based in Basel, Switzerland?
Posted by Mask at 06/17/2009 @ 07:56am
Make generic versions of their drug and sell it here and tell them to go to hell.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 06/17/2009 @ 4:20pm
Make generic versions of their drug and sell it here and tell them to go to hell.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 06/17/2009 @ 4:20pm
Then the question would be, what are the Swiss going to do about that?
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 06/17/2009 @ 4:21pm
Russia and Iraq continued
<In my intelligence reports during the war I advised all Departments of DOD, DOJ, CIA, etc.... that not only were the Russians involved in many aspects of daily life in Iraq (weapons factories, businesses, supplying non conventional technology/weapons to Iraq) but the Iranians were coming into southern Iraq by the thousands.
I am not a man who normally curses, but "hell" my evidence is ME! The U.S. Government (which most days includes Congressmen) handpicked me to deploy to Iraq specifically to look for WMD. They spent several hundred thousand dollars to send me to 2500 hours of Arabic language instruction, 3 week immersion tours in Jordan, months in Saudi Arabia. I had worked counter-terrorism and counter-intelligence for 15 plus years, and had a Top Secret/SCI clearance. Yet, I provided everything imaginable and can't get them searched.>
http://tinyurl.com/mwmyl8
More on the money trail
<German and French leaders reportedly worry about revelations that they helped arm and equip Saddam. Russian defense analyst Pavel Felgenhauer writes that the Kremlin fears public disclosure of its post-Soviet secret cooperation with Saddam.>
http://tinyurl.com/nb65dg
<Russia did its best to weaken and then break the sanctions regime imposed on Iraq, and then to prevent the 2003 invasion. In exchange it reaped lucrative economic concessions from Saddam Hussein, including the payment of large bribes to senior officials and politicians.>
http://tinyurl.com/mk75b9
Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 4:42pm
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 06/17/2009 @ 4:21pm | ignore this person | warn this person
this is G W Bush smash mouth "diplomacy".
you are better than this.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/17/2009 @ 6:08pm
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 06/17/2009 @ 4:21pm | ignore this person | warn this person
this is G W Bush smash mouth "diplomacy".
you are better than this.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/17/2009 @ 6:10pm
Posted by OneVote at 06/17/2009 @ 3:34pm | ignore this person | warn this person
it is more than just a blot on Powell.
after that disgraceful performance, Powell is finished in american politics and public life.
he coulda been a contender
Posted by emile duBois at 06/17/2009 @ 6:13pm
after that disgraceful performance, Powell is finished in american politics and public life.
he coulda been a contender
Posted by emile duBois at 06/17/2009 @ 6:13pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Not to be trusted. I agree JR. And yes, he could have been a real contender. I just can't cut him any slack after that UN dog and pony show.
Posted by OneVote at 06/17/2009 @ 6:46pm
Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 4:07pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Liv - give me a chance to take a look at yer stuff.
Posted by OneVote at 06/17/2009 @ 6:48pm
This is the most current active blog on The Nation at this moment touching on the topic of medicine, so I will paste some information I found here:
This news article points out the flaws in Socialist Medicine that Conservatives have been pointing out over and over and over again, to no avail to a lib audience gung-ho for socialist health care.
It is about a man who has to go to Buffalo for treatment rather than Detroit, even though Detroit is a half-hour away from his home and Buffalo is four hours from his home, because the government says so.
It is also about how some of his care has been screwed up by screw ups in the paperwork.
Before you libs get all ramped up in high gear to declare this article and this circumstances lies, falsehoods, Mask proclaiming it came from Rush, etc etc etc, - there are a few things I should mention.
1. The man is Canadian, eh?
2. The government I mentioned above is the Canadian government, eh?
3. The treatment he needs is not available at all in Canada, eh?
4. The news article is from the Windsor Star.
5. Windsor in this case is Windsor, Ontario, eh?
Since there is not much chance Frosty Zoom will provide this link from the home town newspaper about an article showing why socialist health care is bad, I will do it instead, eh?
Man goes to Buffalo for life-saving treatment
By Sonja Puzic , The Windsor Star June 17, 2009 http://www.windsorstar.com/goes+Buffalo+life+saving+treatment/ 1702800/story.html
(my link may contain blank spaces that need to be removed after pasting into your browser, eh?)
Posted by sjchermak at 06/17/2009 @ 7:34pm
And you have the temerity to call out other people for wearing tin-foil hats?
This tripe has about as much credence as g-d-planted-the-fossils theories. Count the instances of 'contacts of mine' and 'someone' in the text alone.
The idea that the ISG would have been allowed to not search the sites your 'source' mentioned is ridiculous beyond belief.
I think your 'WorldThreats' buddies are starved for attention and making up fish stories...the WMD that got away.
Posted by snowball666 at 06/17/2009 @ 7:41pm
So the fact that the Washington Post even cited the illegal support by the Russians before, during, and after the war is just "world threat buddies"?
Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 7:51pm
snowball666,
Excellent point, let's go full tilt for Socialist medicine!!
I am lame, I guess, because it apparently is this guy's fault that things got goofed up because a mistake in the paperwork.
OK, you have proven your point. It is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, absolutely VITAL, that the paperwork be perfect!
THAT is what matters, every T crossed and every I dotted in the proper way so the government bureaucrat can approve the paperwork!
1. The article does not say that the paperwork mistake was his mistake....so we don't know if he made a mistake or a government bureaucrat made a mistake before handing it off to a different bureaucrat for "approval".
2. Even if he made a mistake, you have got to be kidding if you think it is OK that life or death matters should hinge on or change so completely because of a minor papework error.
3. You seemed to miss the part in the article where the couple was scrambling to fix the issue after the initial paperwork error, to obvious frustration. You can not be serious if you think it is OK that once there is a minor paperwork error things can become so difficult to get corrected. You are totally blind to the impact of government and government bureaucracy.
4. You seemed to have missed that it is obscene that this guy has to go 4 hours to Buffalo now instead of a half hour to Detroit.....paperwork mistake or no paperwork mistake........and here is what you really missed....if some new person in Windsor comes down with a similar type of cancer.....and even if they filled out a perfect stack of paperwork....so perfect it would make a bureaucrats heart swoon.......they now would still have to go to Buffalo rather than Detroit!!!
5. How come this is not available in Windsor? You ignored that one completely.
Try again, eh?
Posted by sjchermak at 06/17/2009 @ 8:26pm
snowball666,
Private healthcare insurance is going to force somebody (who is ill to start with) to go 4 hours away when the same treatment is available a half hour away?
No.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/17/2009 @ 8:36pm
snowball666,
Also, how come this treatment is not available in Windsor?
Also, one has to assume that it is not available in Toronto, either. It seems certain to me that if it were available in Toronto the man would have been required to go there instead of Buffalo. If the bureaucrats don't care about making the guy travel an extra 3 and one half hours, at that point the additional time to Toronto wouldn't matter much, in fact since you can go straight to Toronto from Windsor on highway 401 it probably is the same amount of time.
You could claim that Windsor might not be big enough for some kind of cancer center that would offer that treatment, I doubt that is the case, but certainly there would be some kind of center in Toronto, if Buffalo and Detroit have such centers.
Of course, there is one difference that does drive this, kind of blatantly obvious, I would think, as to why Detroit and Buffalo have such availability but Windsor and apparently Toronto do not.
Hmm, I wonder what that would be, eh?
Posted by sjchermak at 06/17/2009 @ 8:48pm
snowball666,
According to your logic, someone with the same type of cancer in Detroit would be told by their mean, nasty private insurance company that they can not utilize the treatment in their own town, they would have to drive to Buffalo to get that treatment!!!
You actually believe the stuff you post? I hope you are just a comedian and don't really believe the stuff you post.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/17/2009 @ 8:51pm
snowball666,
I guess this is all a moot point.... because Obama is going to fix all this........
so eventually the treatment won't be available in Buffalo or Detroit either.
Then the guy in Windsor doesn't have to worry about driving anywhere anyway.
And a similar person in Detroit wont have to worry about driving to Buffalo.
And a similar person living on Delaware Avenue won't have to worry about walking or taking a bus to Roswell Park for treatment that is not there anyway, because it probably won't be government approved.
So Obama will make life easier for cancer patients in Buffalo......if the treatment is not available, and there is no reason to believe that since it is scarce/not available in Canada because of Socialist medicine, that it will not become scarce/not available here in the States once we have Socialist medicine too.......and with that treatment not available anymore that will free ill patients in Buffalo to go watch a Sabres game while waiting to die.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/17/2009 @ 9:06pm
Posted by antisocialist at 06/17/2009 @ 4:42pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Liv - I don't doubt that Saddam was breaking some rules, but don't you and Saddam have the same opinion of the UN? Israel violates UN all the time, but you don't advocate invading Israel. Remember that Saddam was faced with sanctions, and over 500,000 Iraqi children died as a result of these sanctions. I think you have to put things in context.
Bush looked into Putin's eyes and said what again?
Come on. We should have invaded Russia and China not Iraq. Israel sells weapons to China that end up in Iran that end up in Lebanon and Palestine.
Was the US (or Israel more precisely) in imminent threat from Saddam from WMD? Bottle rockets aren't WMD.
Remember the shifting reasons for us occupying Iraq. No one in the mainstream was peddling what you are peddling.
Posted by OneVote at 06/17/2009 @ 9:12pm
snowball666,
When I was mentioning the existence of centers in Toronto and Windsor, I obviously meant centers where this kind of treatment would be available. This treatment is quite apparently not available at those centers in Toronto or Windsor.
You are trying to catch me in a word parsing game, where my wording was a little sloppy regarding centers and thus you think I meant no cancer treatment of any kind.
I certainly am aware they have hospitals in Canada, eh?
This guy needs a specific kind of treatment that is not available in his country.
Somehow you don't seem to think that is a big time problem with Socialist medicine.
Saying an ill person is trying to "avoid a drive" and saying that the government was being responsibly cost efficient by making an ill person drive 3 and one half more hours is absurd.
It is probably that same "cost efficiency" that causes the treatment to not exist in Canada in the first place.
The article in the Windsor Star says it is scarce. How come such kind of treatment is much more readily available in the States?
Separate from this circumstance, I was amazed when I heard one time on AM-740 radio on Toronto an advertisement for a health insurance policy that people could purchase .......and if they came down with a serious condition this policy would pay them money so they could purchase health treatment.
Purchase health treatment from doctors in the States, apparently.
I couldn't believe my ears when I heard this......if the Canadian system is so good why would it be desirable or even necessary for them to purchase additional health insurance to help them pay for health care if they needed it. Health care they apparently can not get in Canada.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/17/2009 @ 9:41pm
actually,
i know quite a few cancer survivors.
Posted by frosty zoom at 06/17/2009 @ 10:04pm
What a naive fool Laura Flanders is. Without profit why would any drug company wish to pursue research and development beyond the known reliable products it already produces for sale? They could exist for decades without spending another dime and make unimaginable profits before eventually closing shop very very rich!
Laura believes technological and pharmacutical advances are unfunded activities best reserved for garage and backyard utility building experimenters who fund their own trial and error trials! Quick Laura rush that stuff to the FDA for approval!
Posted by BigPasture at 06/17/2009 @ 11:30pm
frosty zoom,
They must live in Detroit and not Windsor.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/18/2009 @ 08:01am
snowball666,
That particular kind of treatment that the guy in Windsor needs must not be available in Toronto, because if it were then you would be trying to convince me that the Canadian government, or perhaps in this case the Ontario government, would send somebody to Buffalo, outside of the country, rather than Toronto, for treatment available in both places, and at pretty much the same physical distance from where he lives.
I am sure they must have plenty of capability at the Toronto facilities that you cite, but apparently not for the particular type of treatment this guy needs.
Since in Canada the government runs health care to begin with, I doubt if what you imply were true (availablity of the treatment in Toronto) that it would be more cost efficient for them (the govenment) at Roswell Park in Buffalo.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/18/2009 @ 08:08am
snowball666,
It is amazing arguing with the left on stuff like this sometimes.
I mention how the treatment the guy in Winsor needs is readily available in the U.S. and scarce or non-existent in Canada, and according to you that is because our system is bad and wrong!
"...."How come such kind of treatment is much more readily available in the States?"
Because we overcharge millions of people who don't have melanoma and refuse anyone who does......."
So, when you have things where our way results in something better, it is because of things we are wrong about or things that are bad about our way!
According to the left, that is.
So, excess bureaucratic snafus are OK, making a guy who is ill travel 3 and one half unnecessary hours because it is cost effective is OK, too!!
Of course, another thing you do not see is that the concept of "cost effectiveness" can get out of hand in a hurry.
The government, which within it's own operations is 180 degree the opposite of cost effectiveness, will be making life or death decisions on cost effectiveness.
So the day will come, under Socialist medicine, where a family of a seriously ill and perhaps elderly person will be told that treatment for that person is not available.
That will be because the government bureaucrat will have decided that it is not cost effective to keep a person living by giving them available treatment.
So a patient will have no say (about their life), their family will have no say (about their life), it will be in the hands of a government "expert" instead.
You say no, this won't happen, but even now where there is socialist medicine bureaucrats decide who gets treatments and when, some having to wait for a long time for 2nd level tests, in discomfort while they do.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/18/2009 @ 08:18am
snowball666,
The problem with your argument is that even if it is what you say, you are just advocating replacing one bad system with another system that is even worse.
What is accomplished by that?
It seems that most people have no issues or problems with their medical insurance. I do not personally know anybody who had run into the situations you and other libs describe.
They no doubt exist, but they are probably the exception to the rule, but then the exception is magnified by libs.
On the other hand, the negatives I described about Socialist medicine are institutionalized as the way to go for all people. Thus, not the exceptions to the rule, but the rule.
So, if there are flaws in our system, instead of fixing those with market oriented reforms, the debate and the effort is constantly taken up by efforts to fight off lib efforts to socialize medicine in this country.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/18/2009 @ 08:47am
Posted by sjchermak at 06/18/2009 @ 08:47am
I would assume you support the four page outline the Repubs have offered?
(not an attack, simple question)
Posted by Mask at 06/18/2009 @ 09:14am
Whether or not you believe in government-run healthcare, doesn't it seem that this Novartis thing is where the government money should be directed (In government-run healthcqre, the government doesn't ask doctors to work for no pay, it tells them to treat the poor, then pays their salaries)?
Posted by Mistral at 06/18/2009 @ 09:19am
Looks like the future of third world health care will be left with the sporting & entertainment promoters.
The world obviously needs some more "Rumbles in the Jungles."
Contagion free environment, anyone?
Posted by Sorelish at 06/18/2009 @ 09:49am
Does Laura Flanders work for free? Does Air America broadcast for free? Who here works for free?
Then why should Novartis shareholders be forced to bear the expense in this example?
I'd like to think Laura Flander's thoughts on profits were just child-like innocence. But instead it is clearly child-like ignorance.
Like the vast majority of liberals, I observe Ms Flanders is absolutely MAGNANIMOUS when it comes to distributing other people's money. And I surmise she can't even begin to equate her benevolence with tyranny.
Posted by freiheit1 at 06/18/2009 @ 2:22pm
"Help the poor prevent a pandemic? Novartis said 'No'. That's Novartis --makers of Exedrin and Bufferin -- I guess they haven't made enough off those over-the-counter best-sellers."
What arrogance! First off, she's wrong. One, Novartis never said they wouldn't help, they just aren't going to take the financial hit. Two, who is Ms Flanders to determine how much is enough regarding profits from OTC drug sales?
There are so many legitimate ways to criticize and be suspicious of the pharma industry and I am hard pressed to defend Novartis on anything. But Flanders will not go beyond her fringe choir with this joke of an editorial.
Posted by freiheit1 at 06/18/2009 @ 2:31pm
snowball666,
Alternatives promoted by the left are NOT the answer.
You have not, and probably won't, address the question of why the treatment the guy in Windsor needs is not available in his own country - because the reason is their system of health care.......which is looked upon by the left as an example that we should follow, but would just make things worse.
Here is some information addressing the pitfalls of where the left is trying to steer this country on health care:
45 Million Americans' -- Who Are Those Guys? By Larry Elder http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/elder061809.php3
Why Isn't Government Health Care the Answer? By David Gratzer http://freemarketcure.com/whynotgovhc.php
Sweden's Government Health Care by Walter E. Williams http://townhall.com/columnists/ WalterEWilliams/2009/03/04/swedens_government_health_care
Posted by sjchermak at 06/19/2009 @ 04:04am
The WHO should have their own in-house drug company. Private self-interest companies can't be relied upon for public health, especially on a global scale. Science and society has reached a level where for-profit pharma companies needs to be obsolete.
Posted by Milhaus at 06/19/2009 @ 06:48am
his is G W Bush smash mouth "diplomacy".
you are better than this.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/17/2009 @ 6:08pm
No it's not. If these people are willing to let folks die so that they can increase their bottom line, then why buy their product at all? Many countries reverse engineer products made in the U.S. and sell them on the black market or just flat sell them on the open market and get away with it. Why should patients have to suffer because Bob the suit in the pharmaceutical industry wants to increase his market shares?
I didn't say go to war with the company, I just said to create a generic version of their product that could be used to force them to lower their price. The Swiss are using the fact that they are a foreign country to keep the U.S. regulators from doing anything about their products. The U.S. in turn, can choose to use a different product....that's free market stuff isn't it?
The Swiss have been no friends to your average American citizen. They have helped the ultra wealthy in this country with their tax haven offshore bank accounts that once again the U.S. government has no jurisdiction over. They can't have it both ways. They want an open market to sell their products and then want to monopolize that market when it suits them.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 06/19/2009 @ 07:25am
to force them
this is the problem with your approach.
you seem to want everyone to be like america, and to always obey america.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/19/2009 @ 08:23am
you seem to want everyone to be like america, and to always obey america.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/19/2009 @ 08:23am
Fair enough. The last thing the world needs is more Bush-type policies.
I still maintain; however, that their product can be reverse engineered and produced in generic form. If they wish to sell it at 10 times the cost of the generic version to maximize their profits then by all means they can and should sell it at that price. But they shouldn't be allowed to stop someone else from making it cheaper too.
If you look it this from another perspective, you could say that big pharmaceuticals are using W diplomacy. The pharmaceutical industries are holding a gun to peoples' heads and saying, "pay whatever rates we ask for this medicine, or die". That sounds a lot like W diplomacy to me.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 06/19/2009 @ 08:40am
snowball666,
The treatment this guy needs is not available in Canada...it is not available because of the health care system, not because of technology.
The technology is there, and Canada is certainly a modern country totally up to speed technology-wise...it is not backwards in any way.
The reason some kind of treatment may not be available, given what I said, is because of the polices of the health care system. The articles I posted do point out the same kind of circumstances in other places such as the case in Sweden where a certain type of medicine that someone needed was not available through their system.... for the same reason.
And worse yet.... the person who needed that medicine was told they could not even purchase it out of money out of their own pocket.......because it would not be "fair"......
There are places where treatments that exist elsewhere, or medicines that exist elsewhere, are not available to people because of government policy or government "cost effectivness" decisions........and in these places they have Socialized medicine.......and these incidents are documented in various ways in the public domain, such as the cancer patient described in the Windsor Star........
YET......
As a lib, all you have to do is declare the problem does not exist and ......
POOF!!....SHAZAM!!......
There is no problem and these real life incidents are the figments of the imaginations of "Cons" or "Neocons" or perhaps lackeys for the evil Insurance Industry, or whatever..........
And it is then described that I am "harping on the Unicorn"....
It's hard to argue with somebody that re-invents or airbrushes away documented incidents or re-writes history on the fly, because reality becomes a moving target one can't keep up with.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/19/2009 @ 10:17am
We're also assuming that they have production capacity in place that would be able to deal with the volume that Ms Flanders is requesting be made available...not necessarily the case.
Posted by snowball666 at 06/19/2009 @ 09:22am
I was only using the H1N1 virus as an example. Suppose a real pandemic were to hit. I agree that the U.S. and other world powers could and should subsidize medicines to the needy and since these governments pretty much already subsidize the pharmaceutical industry, they should have a little more say over how much the patients are gouged to purchase the end product.
This is the not so funny thing about the stem cell research issue. The real issue isn't over whether or not the research can be done, but rather if it can also be funded by federal dollars versus private dollars. The private industry doesn't want any competition, especially if it's the government funding the research because at that point, they wouldn't outright own the patents and be able to jack the prices up as high as they want.
Can you imagine how expensive aspirin would be today if it was recently discovered and you needed a prescription to get it which some doctors have said should be the case? All pain relievers would be through the roof in price. To compete with aspirin prices, they had to come down in price.
I have allergies and used to use Clariton and in inhaler until my insurance quit paying for it...now I use loratadine which is the same thing and a saline nasal rinse It's take the meds, or get sick with a sinus infection and ear infection. But, I have an alternative at least with the generic version of Clariton. With the newer drugs, the pharma industry is black mailing their patients because they have the new drug patent on the block.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 06/19/2009 @ 11:18am
snowball666,
You say "I'll gladly take a system that will get me IL-2, with minor inconvenience"
But that is not what you will have....the only reason the guy in Windsor has it at all is because he comes to the States....if we have socialist medicine than it won't be available here, either...most likely.....since Socialist medicine is the only logical reason it was not available to him in his own country....you miss the point.
You say socialist medicine "covers all"....but you seem to have missed that people wait forever for the 2nd level testing they need, if they need it....and they suffer or are in discomfort as a result....and in some cases their condition gets needlessly worse......
You say "...If you really want to convince people that socialized medicine isn't the way to go, you're going to need to present a 'free market' alternative that's better than what we have now......."
NO...it is the other way around...if you want to convince people we need socialist medicine, you need to show why fixing problems we have in our system, a system that works for most of the people, is not appropriate and that completely overhauling what we do and adopting systems from other countries that are flawed, but whose flaws never seem to be discussed by you on the left or by the media, is better instead.......
......you need to show why adopting systems that "cover all" but fail their people in many ways has improved things.
Another thing you overlook....in Canada if one is wealthy and needs better care than they can get at home, then they come over to the States and purchase treatment out of their own pocket.
So the Canadians don't have an equal system after all...the wealthy can get better care....in a system dumbed down for all others to make it "equal".
Posted by sjchermak at 06/19/2009 @ 12:11pm
<i>Posted by snowball666 at 06/19/2009 @ 11:41am </i>
I don't want to strawman your position here, so I am only seeking to clarify it...
Is your position actually...abolish patents?? Or perhaps more precisely...abolish patents for things that matter??
Posted by Thrawn at 06/19/2009 @ 1:40pm
Lower health insurance premiums (more jobs), less bankruptcies (less foreclosures), and less needlessly sick and/or dead people.
fewer instead of less in every case.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/19/2009 @ 1:58pm
snowball666,
You are arguing for the sake of arguing now, because your arguments have run out of steam.
Here you go with the word parsing again.....by media I meant the U.S. media....covering this run up to Obama's attempts to socialize or move us the next step to socialize health care.....
The Windsor Star is a Canadian newspaper, eh?
Did our main media cover the situation in Windsor? I am referring to something that most people would have seen....I am sure some media may have mentioned it, perhaps a few newspapers, but nothing that most of the country has seen....
.....will our U.S. media make mention of the similar type of situations that occur in Canada, the U.K., and the rest of Europe, for example the item in Dr. Walter E. Williams article how in Sweden the government won't let somebody pay for a specific medicine out of their own pocket!!!!
A lot of the imperfections in socialized health care in other places are not trivial issues......
and the Swedish government not allowing someone to buy medicine out of their own pocket is a criminal violation of their freedom. That is way beyond trivial....that is government control over people's lives.
You say it is wrong to pay more than rent for health insurance......the problem is that the stuff that health insurance covers is VERY EXPENSIVE....if you look at all the technology involved in modern medicine, the skill and effort that doctors and nurses possess, the effort needed in time and money to develop medicines that solve ailments......there is a tremendous cost associated with doing all that....a cost that is there separate from the question of how it is paid for.
That is reality.....it is not free...nothing can change that.
to be continued
Posted by sjchermak at 06/19/2009 @ 1:59pm
Modern medicine is something that has existed only recently in human history.... only within the last 100 years or maybe 150 years.....
The type of medical care and knowledge we have today is something new and unique to modern times......
I realize that people did look into medical issues, etc before that but to a much smaller scale.
Back in colonial times in this country to the degree that there were such things as doctors they only did a limited number of things and there was only so many things they could do.
In many cases people died of things that today are cured with a simple pill....strep throat would lead to rhumatic fever which would lead to death... and there was no preventing that.....today if one has strep throat they take antibiotics and they are cured.
All the modern medical knowledge and modern medical instruments and pharmaceuticals did not just automatically appear out of nowhere and it cost considerable sums of money to get technology to where it is today.
You on the left will showcase problem areas (the link to the video you posted with the woman whose insurance denied payment for her cancer operation), and then push that our whole system be completely retooled to a type of system that has serious flaws and takes people's freedoms away.
You reject my argument that the treatment the guy needed in Windsor was not available in Canada because of socialized medicine, but you offer no counter-argument as to any other reason why.
That is because you know the reason why, and want to ignore it in your sanctimonius push for socialist medicine.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/19/2009 @ 2:09pm
Thrawn
you asked me a question about war, which I answered. I asked you the saME QUESTION, WHICH YOU DIDN'T.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/19/2009 @ 2:13pm
Thrawn
dann eben nicht.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/19/2009 @ 8:02pm