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RedditIn London today, Barack Obama and Dmitry Medvedev agreed to make cuts in their nuclear arsenals; Obama and Gordon Brown announced that the G20 were "within a few hours" of agreeing a global plan for economic recovery; and Nicholas Sarkozy, in cahoots with Angela Merkel, threatened to scupper the whole show if his calls for tighter financial regulation are not met. But at 11 am, outside the Bank of England, we waited under an eggshell sky for the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse: red against war, green against climate chaos, silver against financial crime and black (the website said) against borders and land enclosures, in memory of the Diggers.
War got there first, escorted by a small crowd offering the usual British cocktail of whimsy ("Queers against capitalism and other nasty things" "Eat the bankers") and testosterone ("We are fucking angry"). There were fists in the air, and singing, to the tune of "Clementine": "Build a bonfire, build a bonfire, Put the bankers on the top…" Small knots of anarchists in black drummed up a rapid rhythm; police in day-glo green formed equally rapid cordons; the last red double-deckers tried to nose through the crowd. Everyone was taking pictures, with cameras and mobile phones: if it isn't mediated, it isn't happening. "Jump! Jump!" people shouted up at the windowless bank, and "Where's our money?" and "Shame!"
The protest seemed a broad bricolage of causes: a young man waving a red flag allowed that we're not in a revolutionary situation yet, "but I think we might be soon"; three feet away, a woman holding one end of a banner ("Capitalism isn't working") said she was furious with Gordon Brown for saddling her children with debt and may well vote for the Tories in the next election. But Mary--retired, with a "Wage Slave" label on--rebuked my cynicism. "I refute the idea that we're all talking about different things," she said. "The kind of world we want to see is the same world---a world where money is used to help people. We're all just talking about different bits of it."
Within the hour all four horses had arrived, and several thousand of us found ourselves penned (or "kettled") by the police in the broad plaza at the end of Threadneedle Street. A woman in business clothes, down for a meeting, had to get home to pick up her baby son from nursery; no dice, the officer said. No one was getting out. Back in February the Met issued dire warnings of an impending "summer of rage". Today they seemed determined to fulfil that prophecy. There's nothing like being hemmed in to make you want to push back; a panicky anger wells even if you don't want it to. When the cordon briefly parted, the crowd surged forward, and I saw the first scuffle between a policeman and a protester--no political content there, just two guys losing it.
Once I'd escaped I walked a few blocks to the European Climate Exchange (which trades in carbon credits), where a very different, "fluffier" protest was taking root. A tent city had sprung up between the office buildings, complete with bunting and colourful posters: "Welcome to the Bright Side." Instead of red and black, hot pink and brilliant green; instead of shouting, cake and daffodils--because "Nature doesn't do bailouts." The police stood around, bemused, with their arms folded.
This was Climate Camp, a network (mostly young and mostly white) of people who've gathered regularly since 2006 to talk and to protest--earlier camps were held at Heathrow Airport and at Kingsnorth, where there are plans to build a coal-fired power plant. Dave, a post-doc doing research on carbon dating at Oxford University, sat in the doorway of his tent dressed in a business suit "so the police won't stop and search me and take all my belongings." This feels to him like the birth of a new movement. "With most protests, people turn up for the day and then go home; this is an ongoing thing. It's the only thing that makes me feel optimistic, though I don't know if we can actually stop climate change."
There was a definite buzz here, a purposeful party atmosphere. People talked about reclaiming something that was lost, a sense of ownership of the streets and of the land, about building communities. Young men wandered about offering gingerbread. There were workshops on carbon trading and Copenhagen, Samba and self-defense. Two mermaids in green wigs and long blue sparkly dresses worried about sea levels; a land-based woman wore a T-shirt reading "I heart ethical investment." Apparently there are factions here, as everywhere--"some people want capitalism to end, while others simply want it to take note of science"--but the core ethic is non-violence and consensus building. What made the camp so different from the protests round the corner, which felt, from here, a million miles away? It's not so simple, they insisted. We're the same people; it's just a different style, a different tactic.
Back at the Bank, the police were putting on riot gear; there had been a few things thrown, a few heads cracked. Someone had smashed the window of the Royal Bank of Scotland (whose former director, Sir Fred Goodwin, was rewarded for his failures with a million dollar pension); but as this picture shows, the cameras' black snouts outnumbered the missiles. The whole thing felt like a painful tempest in a teapot: the simulacrum of a riot, dreamed up by the police and a handful of protesters.
There have been three different demonstrations in London today, in three very different styles: a traditional march to Trafalgar Square let by the Stop the War Coalition, with speeches by the big beasts of the left; the Climate Camp; and the "meltdown" at the Bank. No prizes for guessing which one made the most headlines. On my way home I passed an Evening Standard billboard: "Anarchists battle for City," the big black letters read, as if we were on the verge of civil war.
Update, April 2nd: Yesterday evening the police encircled the Climate Camp and began to crush the entirely peaceful demonstrators gathered there with riot shields and strike them with batons: see this film posted on Indymedia. The campers put their hands in the air and chanted "This is not a riot," but the police continued to shove. They were then kept penned without food or water for five hours before being searched and allowed out one by one. It was also reported this morning that a man died, apparently of a heart attack, during the protest at the Bank of England.
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The most interesting thing I heard this morning was a British reporter telling an MSNBC anchor that the cops had cordoned off all of the exits from around the Bank of England and were not letting the protesters leave even after the demonstration had ended. That made no sense to me unless the powers that be want violence between the cops and the (hemmed in) demonstrators, all the better to demonize the latter in the press.
Oh, and the anchor did not ask a follow-up question about this. What a shock.
Posted by cka2nd at 04/01/2009 @ 4:15pm
No surprise.. the anarchists and the "green radicals" all share a common goal. break up civilization and return mankind to the dark ages.
the film I watched on BBC hardly looked peaceful. Well, at least jail could provide some of these people with a shower and keep them off the streets.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/01/2009 @ 4:21pm
Thanks for the interesting report, Maria.
London's calling all right, and it's fair to say that we all live by the river.
Here's hoping that as things almost certainly go from bad to much worse, much good is ultimately derived as a result.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 04/01/2009 @ 4:23pm
ah...the natural reaction has begun...
the failure of satano-aynrando style criminal capitalism, trumpeted triumphantly for decades by the US and foisted unwanted and unasked for upon the rest of the world emboldens the sane powers of europe.
so recently disparaged by the obnoxious yipping lapdogs and squawking parrots of aynrandian elitism, the sane and responsible world powers reassert the hard learned wisdom of SUSTAINABLE GROWTH and reality based economics...
vive la natural reaction!!!!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 04/01/2009 @ 4:37pm
they're opening a new theme park in london:
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displayStor
y.cfm?story_id=13395767&source=features_box4
Posted by frosty zoom at 04/01/2009 @ 4:52pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 04/01/2009 @ 4:52pm | ignore this person | warn this person
that was funny...
(hint - tinyurl.com)
http://tinyurl.com/cpaeje
Posted by ibbleblibble at 04/01/2009 @ 5:06pm
What the hell. I'll repost here this comment of mine that wasn't published on an MSNBC thread:
Most of us don't have a firm grasp of what exactly has just happened to us under the current circumstances, but we do know that we've been played.
Matt Taibbi's recent masterpiece at Rolling Stone, "The Big Takeover" --tinyurl.com/dy4k3h-- is an excellent starting point to get a handle on the crisis and why it has occurred.
At this point events are unfolding at a very rapid pace and the economic crisis is almost certainly going to get much worse before it gets any better. I sincerely hope that we can collectively get our heads screwed on and understand the need to take away --rather than continue to give away-- power from the plutocrats. We can start by understanding that Barack Obama's planned bailout of the "too big to fail" banks is not in our interest but in the interest of the power brokers in DC.
We MUST find a way to make our voices heard.
Rolling Stone excerpt:
The best way to understand the financial crisis is to understand the meltdown at AIG. AIG is what happens when short, bald managers of otherwise boring financial bureaucracies start seeing Brad Pitt in the mirror.....
That guy — the Patient Zero of the global economic meltdown — was one Joseph Cassano, the head of a tiny, 400-person unit within the company called AIG Financial Products, or AIGFP. Cassano, a pudgy, balding Brooklyn College grad with beady eyes and way too much forehead, cut his teeth in the Eighties working for Mike Milken, the granddaddy of modern Wall Street debt alchemists....
Cassano, by contrast, was just a greedy little turd with a knack for selective accounting who ran his scam right out in the open, thanks to Washington's deregulation of the Wall Street casino.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 04/01/2009 @ 5:23pm
Posted by b_kool_66 at 04/01/2009 @ 5:23pm | ignore this person | warn this person
good comment. msnbc should have posted it.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 04/01/2009 @ 5:29pm
bkool:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice/4
excellent.
ibble:
ugly, superlong urls are a PROTEST AGAINSTTTT THEY'RE HAVING <B>DEJAVIZED</B> US.
http://tinyurl.com/BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Posted by frosty zoom at 04/01/2009 @ 5:36pm
Yep, social TERRORISM, training camps, and soon holy warriors lead by Gore and Obama, Reid, and Pelosi coming to a failing economy near you!
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/01/2009 @ 5:37pm
a failing economy near you!
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/01/2009 @ 5:37pm
http://tinyurl.com/we-reALLredNOW
Posted by frosty zoom at 04/01/2009 @ 5:47pm
Thanks for the Simon Johnson Atlantic link, FZ.
I saw the dude on Moyers awhile back as well. It's encouraging that some sane voices are being heard amidst the obfuscating white noise.
One of the profound meta-questions relating to the punditocracy and much else that has failed us of late is, "How do we create a political decision making apparatus that is both sensitive to the needs of the broader populace (and the ecosystem for that matter) as well as being in some significant way self-correcting or at least able to jettison the components that have proven to be detrimental, flat out corrupt and/or simply useless?".
It's an old, old question going back at least to Plato's Republic and probably much further.
Problem is, we're running a bit short on time it seems to me.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 04/01/2009 @ 5:52pm
Spanish bombs, yo te quiero infinito...
Posted by gangpapist at 04/01/2009 @ 5:54pm
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/01/2009 @ 5:37pm
Hey RIO!
Ya like apples?
Seems Ted Stevens just had his conviction overturned due to some prosecutorial no no's by the AG's office. A conviction that likely cost Sunununu his seat as well.
Bummer. Oh well.
Posted by Benchrest at 04/01/2009 @ 5:58pm
Oh mi corazon
Posted by b_kool_66 at 04/01/2009 @ 5:58pm
Poor Stevens, if only he had put the money in his freezer or asked Conyers, Frank, or Dodd how to hide it he'd be free and clear just like those that actually PAY their taxes on illgotten gains!
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/01/2009 @ 6:07pm
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/01/2009 @ 6:07pm
He IS free and clear.
now
Posted by Benchrest at 04/01/2009 @ 6:08pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 04/01/2009 @ 5:36pm | ignore this person | warn this person
in that case, my dear old friend, i will be forced to...
1. copy and paste into the address box the first line of your long address...
2. return and repeat this process with the second line...
3. only then get around to enjoying the usually at least interesting and generally relevant site to which you refer...
4. then, IF i really liked it, copy the full address...
5. open up tinyurl.com and paste it there...
6. hit the button that makes it "tiny"...
7. copy the "tiny"...
8. return to the blog response pits of hell at the nation...
9. paste it there, say something, then submit...
my question to you, frosty, is this...
is your protest working, or just forcing a brotherman of old to "timyurl" yer shit in hopes others will be more likely to see it?
lol...
;
Posted by ibbleblibble at 04/01/2009 @ 6:13pm
Posted by antisocialist at 04/01/2009 @ 4:21pm
I hate hippies!!!!!-Eric Cartman
Posted by Mask at 04/01/2009 @ 6:52pm
I hate hippies!!!!!-Eric Cartman
Posted by Mask at 04/01/2009 @ 6:52pm
Who is Eric Cartman?
Posted by antisocialist at 04/01/2009 @ 7:07pm
The wind blows and forces our wings. It is time to fly leaving ruins behind. I feel the future in our hands. But we shall not try to touch the Sun... The future will be build with the dead´s whispers as a thread. And our hopes and thoughts as the needles. The fabric in the making now will be the image of ancient dreams...
Posted by April2009 at 04/01/2009 @ 7:37pm
I don't gamble and I don't trust politicians.
Both are like throwing away your money.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/01/2009 @ 3:29pm
contrasted with:
No surprise.. the anarchists and the "green radicals" all share a common goal. break up civilization and return mankind to the dark ages.
the film I watched on BBC hardly looked peaceful. Well, at least jail could provide some of these people with a shower and keep them off the streets.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/01/2009 @ 4:21pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Liv - I am confused. You don't trust politicians as the demonstrators don't.
What are they suppose to do? Why do you villify them when they are expressing their frustration at corrupt politicians? It would seem that you share their frustration.
Posted by OneVote at 04/01/2009 @ 7:45pm
Who is Eric Cartman?
Posted by antisocialist at 04/01/2009 @ 7:07pm
the future of america.
Posted by frosty zoom at 04/01/2009 @ 8:01pm
Yep, social TERRORISM, training camps, and soon holy warriors lead by Gore and Obama, Reid, and Pelosi coming to a failing economy near you!
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/01/2009 @ 5:37pm
Don't know about "lead" with that bunch, comanche. How about agitating from the safety of "at the back"?
Most of this stuff is quite therapeutic and will no doubt supplement the medication they take for the obvious personality disorders that are on display. Got to say, despite that, I think the Brits do this sort of street comedy better than anyone else.
I particularly liked this one: ""Jump! Jump!" people shouted up at the windowless bank, and "Where's our money?" and "Shame!"
"Our money"? They were probably also told by "leaders" from the back, that money was going to float down from the windows of the windowless banks. Sort of like the shout that brought down the walls of Jericho.
One positive is we can all, left and right, get great pleasure from the superb street theatre the the pommies peerlessly turn on.
Posted by lrjones4 at 04/01/2009 @ 8:20pm
If you want it
Here it is
Come and get it
But you better hurry
Cause it's goin' fast...
Posted by snowball666 at 04/01/2009 @ 8:36pm
I don't wan her.
You can av er.
She's too fat for me.
Posted by lrjones4 at 04/01/2009 @ 9:37pm
i love some good ol' violent protest! happens every other day here in san francisco.
Posted by darladoon at 04/01/2009 @ 10:05pm
all i have to say is : f*ck peaceful protests. they don't work. violent protests are the only way to get through to these people, because they simply will not compromise. i mean, they're the ones with riot police, barbed wire fences, containment areas, tear gas, etc.
the protestors don't have sh*t compared to these guys.
Posted by darladoon at 04/01/2009 @ 10:07pm
We've been crying now for much too long And now we're gonna dance to a different song I'm gonna scream and shout til my dying breath I'm gonna smash it up til theres nothing left
Oooh ooh smash it up, smash it up, smash it up Oooh ooh smash it up, smash it up, smash it up
People call me villain oh its such a shame Maybe its my clothes must be to blame I don't even care if I look a mess Don't wanna be a sucker like all the rest
Oooh ooh smash it up, smash it up, smash it up Oooh ooh smash it up, smash it up, smash it up
Smash it up Smash it up Smash it up Smash it up Smash it up
Smash it up, you can keep your krishna burgers Smash it up, and your Glastonbury hippies Smash it up, you can stick your frothy lager Smash it up, and your blow wave hairstyles
And everybody's smashing things down I said everybody's smashing things down yeah
Posted by gangpapist at 04/01/2009 @ 10:13pm
What are they suppose to do? Why do you villify them when they are expressing their frustration at corrupt politicians? It would seem that you share their frustration.
Posted by OneVote at 04/01/2009 @ 7:45pm
I encourage the right to protest. It is violent protest and filthy language that I find offensive.
Darla's latest response is exactly what I mean about those who do not really want a free society. Darla believes that destroying other people's property is something legitimate-it is the antithesis of respect for freedom
Posted by antisocialist at 04/01/2009 @ 10:19pm
"Darla believes that destroying other people's property is something legitimate-it is the antithesis of respect for freedom"
i don't believe in destroying other people's property.
Posted by darladoon at 04/01/2009 @ 10:54pm
i don't believe in destroying other people's property.
Posted by darladoon at 04/01/2009 @ 10:54pm
Really?
"all i have to say is : f*ck peaceful protests. they don't work. violent protests are the only way to get through to these people, because they simply will not compromise. i mean, they're the ones with riot police, barbed wire fences, containment areas, tear gas, etc.
the protestors don't have sh*t compared to these guys.
Posted by darladoon at 04/01/2009 @ 10:07pm"
Posted by antisocialist at 04/01/2009 @ 11:00pm
anti, uh......i never said i support destroying other people's property (unless it's bechtel's or halliburton's property)......can you READ?
Posted by darladoon at 04/01/2009 @ 11:03pm
violent protests are the only way to get through to these people, because they simply will not compromise. i mean, they're the ones with riot police, barbed wire fences, containment areas, tear gas, etc.
the protestors don't have sh*t compared to these guys.
Posted by darladoon at 04/01/2009 @ 10:07pm | ignore this person | warn this person
-------
Thanks! That should get you on the terrorist watch list and also keep you from getting a gun permit! America will now be safer!
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/01/2009 @ 11:05pm
anti, uh......i never said i support destroying other people's property (unless it's bechtel's or halliburton's property)......can you READ?
Posted by darladoon at 04/01/2009 @ 11:03pm
You just repeated your contradiction.
You support violence against property. That is not only criminal, it violates every concept of freedom.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/01/2009 @ 11:05pm
Who is Eric Cartman?
Posted by antisocialist at 04/01/2009 @ 7:07pm | ignore this person | warn this person
A leftist that blogs here under the name MASK!
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/01/2009 @ 11:07pm
"You support violence against property. That is not only criminal, it violates every concept of freedom."
talk about contradictions. our government is responsible for a mind-bogglingly high level of violence against person and property that it makes comments look like a blow job.
"violence is sometimes necessary"
-malcolm X
he was dead right.
oh btw, we kill enslave, kill, torture, disease and eat animals.
so when you prance around and whine about violence against the heavily armed british constabulary (or whatver the f*ck they're called) or the royal f*cking of scotland, think about how ridiculous you sound.
Posted by darladoon at 04/01/2009 @ 11:19pm
"....And everybody's smashing things down I said everybody's smashing things down yeah"
~gangpapist at 10:13pm
Alright. Interesting connection to The Clash as well --Machine Gun Etiquette recorded in the same studio and timeframe as London Calling. Nice.
Better yet a vid:
tinyurl.com/d6cp54
Not a huge Damned fan, but saw them in gritty downtown Detroit at St. Andrews Hall many years ago. Some dude in a puffy shirt was gettin' the shit kicked out of him outside the venue after the show --think he might have said 'iz name was "Comanche" or "LVLiberty" or something.
;-)
Posted by b_kool_66 at 04/01/2009 @ 11:20pm
my people (both jewish and african) were murdered, hanged, maimed, raped, molested, tortured, enslaved, diminished, destroyed, forever. and what of the native americans?
you wanna talk about violence antisocialist?
the white man has amassed a fortune, abused the earth around him, enslaved numerous races, raped and enslaved women, abused children, etc.
and now, they whine and complain about a few thousand protestors with bandanas and rocks.
shut the f*ck up!
Posted by darladoon at 04/01/2009 @ 11:23pm
sorry "royal bank of scotland"
Posted by darladoon at 04/01/2009 @ 11:24pm
The Damned are hit or miss. But for "Curtain Call" alone, they have a prime spot on my roster.
Posted by gangpapist at 04/01/2009 @ 11:26pm
Posted by darladoon at 04/01/2009 @ 11:23pm
Um, darla, if violence was exclusive to "the white man" than I'd be down with kill whitey.
If stopping the body count, not pointing blame, is your real goal, you need to stop with the tunnel vision. The history of inhumanity is the history of humanity.
"Your people" is people like you, on the inside. My people are my friends, my family, decent people across the political spectrum, none easily defined by race. Free yourself from mental slavery.
Posted by gangpapist at 04/01/2009 @ 11:37pm
"Gang" and the rest of the gang here,
Actually, this vid is perhaps more in line with the unfolding reality we're dealing with:
tinyurl.com/y78hgn
A cross between an Enzyte commercial, snippets of David Lynch's "Blue Velvet", and a 50's nuclear test film are a few associations that spring to mind.
Come to think of it, sounds like an "LVLiberty" wet dream if I had to guess.
:D
Posted by b_kool_66 at 04/01/2009 @ 11:37pm
Posted by gangpapist at 04/01/2009 @ 11:37pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Africa is such a peaceful continent without the influence of the White Colonist!
Looking back only a few centuries in Africa the actual slavers were Arabs and Africans who practiced their art long before the white man created another market for their product. Funny how it is all the white man fault. Looking at slavery in history is a very embarrassing thing for every race and nation on earth, but then some people today need the white man to rationalize and justify their hatred. Hey if it makes them feel good or morally superior let them go for it!
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/01/2009 @ 11:59pm
"Um, darla, if violence was exclusive to "the white man" than I'd be down with kill whitey."
who said it was exclusive to the white man? i didn't. but, let's fact it pal, black women (for example) haven't really done much in terms of taking over other countries, enslaving their people, and stealing their shit. not trying to get too deep here, just sayin'.
Posted by darladoon at 04/02/2009 @ 12:02am
"Funny how it is all the white man fault."
again, i don't recall anyone saying it was all the white man's fault. one can easily point to the white man, with mountains of evidence, for crimes against humanity.
can one not?
Posted by darladoon at 04/02/2009 @ 12:03am
Gotta cut out shortly, but here's one more dope vid for the road:
tinyurl.com/cg24al
Probably my favorite Black Sabbath record is Sabotage. So why not update to Sabotage by another name.....in tribute to a future that's been effectively sabotaged?
Enjoy.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 04/02/2009 @ 12:04am
"My people are my friends, my family, decent people across the political spectrum, none easily defined by race"
this person doesn't really have a good grasp of history, as nobody could have made the above comment 150 years ago. pluralism (ironically) is a sign of human progress (thanks mainly to liberals and progressives).....
you would have never made the above comment back in 1850 if you were a white man. "across the political spectrum, none easily defined by race". yeah right.
Posted by darladoon at 04/02/2009 @ 12:07am
Alright, I'm out dudes. But before I go here's a curtain call in honor of the "gangpapist":
tinyurl.com/d62ep5
Good call, "Gang".
Posted by b_kool_66 at 04/02/2009 @ 12:14am
Posted by darladoon at 04/02/2009 @ 12:02am
Black women aren't faring too well in Congo now. Hell, I know quite a few black women right here whose worst days didn't come courtesy of "the white man." Whites still need to introspect on the the history, the present, and how to move forward. Myopic perspectives on who is to blame don't help anybody. In the end, does it matter if it's Leopold, or Mugabe? Give me a gun, darla, and a time machine, and I'll kill them both.
Posted by gangpapist at 04/02/2009 @ 12:14am
this person doesn't really have a good grasp of history, as nobody could have made the above comment 150 years ago. pluralism (ironically) is a sign of human progress (thanks mainly to liberals and progressives).....
Posted by darladoon at 04/02/2009 @ 12:07am
And a fundamentalist Christian white man named John Brown.
Posted by gangpapist at 04/02/2009 @ 12:17am
For what it's worth, if anyone's interested here's a link to a fascinating piece from the NY Times the other day that caught my eye. It's about the explorer namesake of Brazzaville, Republic of Congo.
He wasn't your typical exploiter of the natives.
tinyurl.com/dhw2an
Posted by b_kool_66 at 04/02/2009 @ 12:22am
"Myopic perspectives on who is to blame don't help anybody"
so it's myopic to say that white males enslaved africans?
gee, i guess i misunderstood my history books.
Posted by darladoon at 04/02/2009 @ 01:17am
Posted by darladoon at 04/02/2009 @ 01:17am
No, darla, that is a fact. White men did enslave Africans.
Posted by gangpapist at 04/02/2009 @ 01:49am
Posted by gangpapist at 04/02/2009 @ 01:49am
Just "re-sold", right?
Posted by Mask at 04/02/2009 @ 06:20am
wow...got interesting while i was gone...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 04/02/2009 @ 07:45am
Posted by ibbleblibble at 04/02/2009 @ 07:45am
Think I have an idea how gang believes it "all went down"...
New Orleans---July 1826
A "swarthy type" on the New Orleans' dock comes up to a fine Southern gentleman and says-
"Excuse me, sir. I am Muhammed ibn-Muhammed, an evil Arab slave trader and I came to your country with a load of Africans whom I captured and hoped to sell as slaves here. Unfortunately, due to the innate goodness of you American white people...nobody will buy them and engage in the horrific institution of slavery.
Now I am stuck with them...can you help me out?"
(Distinguished fellow resembling a character from a fried chicken franchise)-"Why certainly, suh. I am Colonel Hayley Trent Beauregard of Biloxi, Mississippi and in the interests of Christian charity, I'll take that whole lot of Nigras off your hands and allow them to live upon my plantation.
I'll even give them jobs (no pay of course, silly fools wouldn't know what to do with money anyway) and give them some outside work with plenty of fresh air and sunshine.
Hell, in a hunnerd years or so, I might let them go out and do what they like on their own....by the Year of Our Lord 2000, I might even let them drink from public waterfountains and not hang 'em for fun!"
Muhammed- "Oh, thank you, sir. That's very generous of you!"
Col. Beauregard- "Well, naturally...after all I'm white!"
Posted by Mask at 04/02/2009 @ 08:24am
'It is not conceivable how the present stockholders can have any claim to the special favor of government .... Many of our rich men have not been content with equal benefits, but have besought us to make them richer by an act of Congress.' -- Andrew Jackson
'Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. Capital has its rights, which are as worthy of protection as any other rights. Nor is it denied that there is, and probably always will be, a relation between labor and capital, producing mutual benefits.' -- Abraham Lincoln
'Malefactors of great wealth' -- Theodore Roosevelt
'Economic Royalists' -- Franklin Roosevelt
'Military-Industrial Complex ... As we peer into society's future, we – you and I, and our government – must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering for, for our own ease and convenience, the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without asking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.' -- Dwight Eisenhower
'This AIG check I'm writing, Geithner, how many zeroes in a billion?' -- Barack Obama (N. B. this last is not an actual quote, but a comical reminder of the fact that Obama is engaging in bailoutry)
Posted by HonestLiberal at 04/02/2009 @ 08:37am
The Qur'an prescribes a humanitarian approach to slavery -- free men could not be enslaved, and those faithful to foreign religions could live as protected persons, dhimmis, under Muslim rule (as long as they maintained payment of taxes called Kharaj and Jizya). However, the spread of the Islamic Empire resulted in a much harsher interpretation of the law. For example, if a dhimmis was unable to pay the taxes they could be enslaved, and people from outside the borders of the Islamic Empire were considered an acceptable source of slaves.
Although the law required owners to treat slaves well and provide medical treatment, a slave had no right to be heard in court (testimony was forbidden by slaves), had no right to property, could marry only with permission of their owner, and was considered to be a chattel, that is the (moveable) property, of the slave owner. Conversion to Islam did not automatically give a slave freedom nor did it confer freedom to their children. Whilst highly educated slaves and those in the military did win their freedom, those used for basic duties rarely achieved freedom. In addition, the recorded mortality rate was high -- this was still significant even as late as the nineteenth century and was remarked upon by western travellers in North Africa and Egypt.
Slaves were obtained through conquest, tribute from vassal states (in the first such treaty, Nubia was required to provide hundreds of male and female slaves), offspring (children of slaves were also slaves, but since many slaves were castrated this was not as common as it had been in the Roman empire), and purchase. The latter method provided the majority of slaves, and at the borders of the Islamic Empire vast number of new slaves were castrated ready for sale
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/02/2009 @ 09:34am
(Islamic law did not allow mutilation of slaves, so it was done before they crossed the border). The majority of these slaves came from Europe and Africa -- there were always enterprising locals ready to kidnap or capture their fellow countrymen.
Black Africans were transported to the Islamic empire across the Sahara to Morocco and Tunisia from West Africa, from Chad to Libya, along the Nile from East Africa, and up the coast of East Africa to the Persian Gulf. This trade had been well entrenched for over 600 years before Europeans arrived, and had driven the rapid expansion of Islam across North Africa.
By the time of the Ottoman Empire, the majority of slaves were obtained by raiding in Africa. Russian expansion had put an end to the source of "exceptionally beautiful" female and "brave" male slaves from the Caucasians -- the women were highly prised in the harem, the men in the military. The great trade networks across north Africa were as much to do with the safe transportation of slaves as other goods. An analysis of prices at various slave markets shows that eunuchs fetched higher prices than other males, encouraging the castration of slaves before export.
Documentation suggests that slaves throughout Islamic world were mainly used for menial domestic and commercial purposes. Eunuchs were especially prised for bodyguards and confidential servants; women as concubines and menials. A Muslim slave owner was entitled by law to use slaves for sexual pleasure.
As primary source material becomes available to Western scholars, the bias towards urban slaves is being questioned. Records also show that thousands of slaves were used in gangs for agriculture and mining.
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/02/2009 @ 09:35am
I dunno if that was just sarcasm or you're just not familiar with my generation's Alex P. Keaton, Eric Cartman from SouthPark.
Think of him as the larval stage of am investment banker or Rushie's evil nephew.
Posted by snowball666 at 04/01/2009 @ 8:05pm
I've never seen South Park. Is it a movie or a television program?
Posted by antisocialist at 04/02/2009 @ 09:36am
Large landowners and rulers used thousands of such slaves, usually in dire conditions: "of the Saharan salt mines it is said that no slave lived there for more than five years.1"
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/02/2009 @ 09:37am
The most favoured of all Islamic slaves seems to have been the military slave -- although performers were the most privileged. By the ninth century slave armies were in use across the whole of the Islamic Empire. The early slave armies tended to be white, taken from Russia and eastern Europe. However, the first independent Muslim ruler of Egypt relied on black slaves and at his death is said to have left 24,000 (white) Mamaluks and 45,000 Nubian military slaves. In north Africa the source of black slaves from Nubia and Sudan were too convenient to ignore. At the time of the Fatimid defeat, in the twelfth century, black troops formed the majority of the army. By the fifteenth century black military slaves were being favoured with the use in battle of firearms (the Mamaluks refused to use such dishonourable weapons). Slave troops in Tunisia in the seventeenth century even included cavalry, and the Sultan of Morocco is recorded as having an army of 250,000 black slaves.
Even as late as the mid-nineteenth century, Egyptian rulers actively recruited black slaves into their army -- for example, they were included in the Egyptian expeditionary force sent by Sa'id Pasha to Mexico in support of the French in 1863.
The transatlantic slave trade sent Arab slavers into overdrive, here was a new market which could be exploited. When the Europeans abolished slavery in the 1800's, the taking of slaves in Africa continued. The eradication of such practices was cited as a major justification by the Europeans for the colonisation of Africa. Certainly Britain had a significant fleet of ships patrolling the coasts against such slave traders.
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/02/2009 @ 09:38am
There is just no excuse for such total ignorance about the history of slavery as is displayed in America today!
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/02/2009 @ 09:40am
I encourage the right to protest. It is violent protest and filthy language that I find offensive.
Darla's latest response is exactly what I mean about those who do not really want a free society. Darla believes that destroying other people's property is something legitimate-it is the antithesis of respect for freedom
Posted by antisocialist at 04/01/2009 @ 10:19pm
I see your point, but the efficacy of protest without anger is somewhat futile isn't it?
I know that leaders of social movements like King and Ghandi advocated peaceful protests, but wasn't their effectiveness in large part the brokerage of change between the establishment and the angry mob? If the establishment did not perceive danger, do you believe that such nonviolent advocates of change would have been as effective?
I think Darla's point is that tempered violence is the only way to get the attention of the establishment, and that appeals to reason without consequence fall on deaf ears.
Even our own government (as well as others) understands this process. If we are attempting to undermine a government, don't we use tactics including destruction of property and violence as a means to effect change we deem desirable?
Take the rioting in LA for instance. Do you believe that the civil rights movement would have been as effective without such violence and destruction? I don't believe it would have been. Without consequence for rejection, social movements generally gain little traction.
Posted by OneVote at 04/02/2009 @ 09:48am
There is not widespread ignorance in the United States today about slavery, at least about slavery that ended in the 19th century. The literature about historical slavery is immense. John Hope Franklin wrote his seminal work on slavery and published it in 1947. It has been continually updated since. A mountain of research and writing has followed in the intervening 62 years. However, there does seem to be widespread ignorance, or wilful blindness if you will, about present day de facto slavery around the world, even in countries that have legally abolished slavery. India and Haiti come immediately to mind. The Nation has run articles claiming some fruit and tomato pickers in Florida are de facto slaves. For whatever reasons, it seems preferable to bemoan a system of slavery that ceased to exist over a century ago than to devote energy to stop contemporary slavery.
Posted by jsens at 04/02/2009 @ 10:13am
Take the rioting in LA for instance. Do you believe that the civil rights movement would have been as effective without such violence and destruction? I don't believe it would have been. Without consequence for rejection, social movements generally gain little traction.
Posted by OneVote at 04/02/2009 @ 09:48am | ignore this person | warn this person
That is the one thing I always found hilarious on TV during the 60s and the 70s in my younger years! I can't imagine anything more IGNORANT than blacks burning black businesses, homes, and the few homes and businesses of other races in "protests" in Watts, Atlanta, Detroit and other urban meccas!
My BLACK and white classmates talked together about the stupidity of such foolishness. We had been in school together since 1955 in our supposedly backward small SW Oklahoma town.
Today black Americans further that insanity by perpetrating over 90% of all black crimes against other blacks! This sounds more like racial approval and acceptance of racial suicide! Unfortunately the left and Demoncrats reward and perpetuate selfhate with governmental slavery now officially REINSTATED by the Porulus spending bill!
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/02/2009 @ 10:13am
can't waste a day when the night brings a hearse -- so make a move and plead the 5th cuz you can't plead the 1st - RATM
Posted by snowball666 at 04/02/2009 @ 10:08am | ignore this person | warn this person
In a nutshell.
Posted by OneVote at 04/02/2009 @ 10:18am
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/02/2009 @ 10:13am | ignore this person | warn this person
You sure there weren't a few Korean businesses for instance that were burned in the LA riots?
And I would like to see your proof that these businesses were predominantly owned by blacks - even though it was their hood.
Crime for profit may be distinguished from "crime" as political, economic and social protest.
Posted by OneVote at 04/02/2009 @ 10:24am
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/02/2009 @ 09:40am
Interesting, isn't it? Apparently white people had nothing to do with slavery....just the A-rabs!
Posted by Mask at 04/02/2009 @ 10:55am
Plenty of non-political looting went on.
Posted by snowball666 at 04/02/2009 @ 10:33am | ignore this person | warn this person
You suppose that all looters had prior criminal records?
How about a mother with children in tow helping herself to the canned goods in the grocery store whose storefront was smashed.
Is that non-political looting in your mind?
Posted by OneVote at 04/02/2009 @ 11:12am
Posted by Mask at 04/02/2009 @ 10:55am | ignore this person | warn this person
Question is what else do you know really nothing about?
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/02/2009 @ 12:00pm
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/02/2009 @ 12:00pm
No, question is, why suddenly you and gangrapist want to convince people that white people had 'practically nothing' to do with slavery??!?!?!??
Posted by Mask at 04/02/2009 @ 12:07pm
Progressive Values to the Rescue
Reflections on the "Summit to Save the World", also known as the G20 in London, can be broken down to two major themes: protest and values. With protestors storming the streets to voice their discontent over the broken system, French President Nicolas Sarkozy promises to protest any agreement that does not impose enough regulatory mechanisms on financial institutions. Moreover, there are inherent core values driving actors in both of these situations to manifest some form of protest, values which don't necessarily contradict one another.
With all eyes are fixated on what results will come out of the G20, let's not forget about the foundation laid in Chile just a few short days ago. While there weren't any outright protests in the streets of Viña del Mar, there was talk of values in all shapes and forms.
Many of the same top leaders attending the G20 Summit were hosted byChilean President Michelle Bachelet within a context of a progressive agenda focused on finding collaborative solutions to the current crisis.
The progressive values talked about at the pre-G20 Summit in Chile last week are exactly what the protestors in the streets of London want to see materialize in governments around the world. These activists have been speaking out for over a decade now about globalization issues and the lack of global governance, starting with the Battle in Seattle in 1999. If their voices could be heard above the pockets of violence dominating world news coverage, it would be clear that there is a shared anger and rejection of the system having produced this crisis, and that most everyone, world leaders and activists alike, already agree on the underpinnings of this new paradigm shift in thinking. But, the devil is in the details...
Posted by adrienlopez at 04/02/2009 @ 12:48pm
Pampers and greenbeans?...eh...okay.
Les Pauls?...hmmm...drifting from class struggle there.
I'm not saying that the people of LA didn't have perfectly legitimate humbugs with Gates and his corrupt jackboots and their decidedly inane treatment of the populace, mind you.
Posted by snowball666 at 04/02/2009 @ 12:22pm | ignore this person | warn this person
And I am not saying that there weren't folks who availed themselves of loot who didn't give a crap about oppression of blacks. Chaos as opportunity to criminally profit. Hard to distinguish, but perhaps your Les Paul versus Greenbean/Pampers is a good measure.
Good point on gentrification as well. Prior to this, many of the "ghetto" businesses sold by whites to minority businessmen like Korean, Indians and Chinese who didn't hesitate to profit off the community. Whats the old saying - go to the white suburbs to buy your groceries - they are cheaper. Another pressure point was the nascent struggle for turf by the growing Hispanic community.
Posted by OneVote at 04/02/2009 @ 12:52pm
".....he protestors don't have sh*t compared to these guys."
Posted by darladoon at 04/01/2009 @ 10:07pm
We got ONE thing, Darla. Numbers. Gandhi's Salt March and policy of satayagra (sic I'm sure) worked very well, although it's true that a LOT of protesters got their skulls broken.
I don't know what the answer is, but one thing I do know is that violence only breed more of same. I think we may be coming to the point where karmic justice may be delivered quite swiftly. The pace of evil and the corresponding retribution to those who practice it seems to be picking up, dramatically, although I admit we got a LONG way to go. I may be hoping for a miracle, but here's to hope.
Posted by DejaVu at 04/02/2009 @ 1:34pm
Looks like the right and excercise of protest is still alive and well in Europe. Although I do think the protesters need to invest in some riot gear if they want to compete with the police. It is refreshing to see a little old fashioned head thumping. It's downright invigorating.
So what happened here? Not protests. Let alone a little brick throwing. Are we so effete that we no longer riot when we get butt raped financially? We are supposed to be such a violent country and yet we whimper and yelp like a whipped dog when we are mistreated.
Shamefull if you ask me..
Posted by chaoszen at 04/02/2009 @ 1:45pm
Prop 13 also drew a very stark line between that haves and have nots...as in schools worth a poop.
Posted by snowball666 at 04/02/2009 @ 1:38pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Yes indeed - The People's Initiative to Limit Property Taxes......
2/3 majority vote in both houses for virtually all state tax increases buried under the title line.
Is it any wonder?
Posted by OneVote at 04/02/2009 @ 1:49pm
Posted by Mask at 04/02/2009 @ 12:07pm
Hey mask.
You're a gnat. You don't know me.
The chattel slavery practiced by the Southern planters was the worst kind, more akin to genocide than "simple" forced labor.
The other thing, however, that is unique about America, is the homegrown abolition movement. Prior to that, you will not find many examples throughout world history of people agitating for the rights of, and willing to go to war for, "others."
You do not hold a monopoly on the "inheritance" of that movement, any more than you have ownership on the history of black America, to employ as a cudgel against your opponents.
My argument with darla had absolutely nothing to do with the "question" of historical white racism, because it is not a question. It was my opinion that her myopic world view, and your own, is fine for assigning blame, and providing Leftists with a feeling of moral superiority, but does nothing to help the oppressed.
If the only danger of that kind of racial demagoguery was that white people would have their feelings hurt, I wouldn't bother with it. Idi Amin, Mugabe, and Mengistu used racial grievance to bring their disastrous regimes to power. The grievance industry in America endows with a sense of justification, a social dysfunction that has taken thousands of lives.
You Mask, are not from the same line as Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner. They sacrificed their lives to DO right. You treat the history of black America as your personal property to FEEL right.
In Civil War time, you would have been John Wilkes Booth. Among the aggrieved Southerner, you would have found a niche audience you could flatter with your shitty plays.
Posted by gangpapist at 04/02/2009 @ 2:52pm
Gang, how should my poor, dead great-great-grandmother feel about her proud abolitionism, given that she was a 'blue-eyed devil' with a Welsh surname?
Posted by snowball666 at 04/02/2009 @ 3:18pm
She should feel the way you said she does, proud.
Posted by gangpapist at 04/02/2009 @ 3:26pm
Posted by gangpapist at 04/02/2009 @ 2:52pm
Gang, that's a nice little speech and rhetorical attempt to turn it around on me, but YOU ...WROTE....THIS-
"No, darla, that is a fact. White men did enslave Africans."----Posted by gangpapist at 04/02/2009 @ 01:49am
Is that a true statement?
Posted by Mask at 04/02/2009 @ 3:41pm
This is getting idiotic. Do you "think" it's true? Who is going to deny the undeniable?
Again, my argument with darla, was that her racialist worldview was counter-productive.
She then catalogued past atrocities, and seeing that there was no way forward, I chose to simply agree with her about indisputable facts from the past.
Please, for your own peace of mind, continue to use the history of slavery and white racism to place an invisible white finger on every trigger. It will not stop the bodies from piling up, but that is not your goal.
And while you're at it, read the piece in this magazine about the war in Congo. When making the case for "it's the white man's fault", I'll help you out, start with the assassination of Lumumba, and the rise of Mobutu. But when the actual war starts, you will have a hard time. So, here's a suggestion, attempt to align yourself with the victims, if only in spirit, regardless of who their oppressors are. It might feel uncomfortable at first, but if everybody thought that way...
Posted by gangpapist at 04/02/2009 @ 4:05pm
John Brown lived in a time of genocide in his own country. He took the tactics of the slavery expansionists to Kansas and made it bleed. And attempted a not-very-well executed plan to start a slave insurrection. He is one of the greatest heroes in our nation's history. If one is not a pacifist, how could you imagine a more justified use of violence.
Koreans should have the right to buy a store wherever they like. That's racist terror. The reasons why immigrants tend to own the cornerstores are complex, but it's not only in the hood. The delis in Manhattan are mostly immigrant-owned.
Posted by gangpapist at 04/02/2009 @ 4:20pm
Posted by snowball666 at 04/02/2009 @ 4:12pm
tribalism..
When we scrap the "Western" enlightenment ideals of individual rights, all created equal, the melting-pot, etc., because they were, shall we say, imperfectly practiced, we might just end up with tribalism and ethnic gangsterism.
The bathwater was rancid but we can still resuscitate the baby.
Posted by gangpapist at 04/02/2009 @ 4:28pm
I'll go past 'imperfectly practiced' to 'disingenuously huckstered with lipservice'; i.e. the demagoguery you've mentioned previously.
Posted by snowball666 at 04/02/2009 @ 4:39pm
They are still worth holding onto. Dr. King was aided and abetted at least by the fact that the framework for equality already existed, it had just been ignored. THE CRM was about forcing America to live up to its ideals. If there were never such ideals, (bastardized though they were) the road would have been longer, and who knows where we might be now.
Look at the piece on Congo to see where tribalism can take a country. "The horror."
Word to your granny (great-great).
Posted by gangpapist at 04/02/2009 @ 4:52pm
What has transpired with the financial industry makes me wonder how much drug use was going on. Let us stop focusing on sports (baseball,...) drug use and turn the spot light on wall street.
Posted by antonio.bklyn at 04/02/2009 @ 6:38pm
I laughed out loud when I read the magnificent understatement that John Brown's plan was "not very well executed." Britishers, known for understatement, would give that remark an "A." Brown and some companions holed up in what was and remains just a little brick building at Harper's Ferry. A detachment of marines was dispatched from Washington under the command of Robert E. Lee. The marines stormed the building and "battle" was over in less than three minutes!
If you haven't visited Harper's Ferry I encourage you to do so. It is very picturesque, isn't too kitschy, has a small museum that depicts some of the inhuman aspects of slavery, and a wonderful view of the river.
Posted by jsens at 04/03/2009 @ 09:11am