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RedditNow this is truly sick. "Canadacare May Have Killed Natasha" says the New York Post, trumpeting an article written by Cory Franklin, first published by the Chicago Tribune (and given splashy play by the Daily Beast). Just as we are gearing up to begin debate in this country over a much-needed public healthcare plan comes a story perfectly calculated to arouse the fears of Americans that "socialized medicine" would endanger their health. Leaving aside for a minute the baselessness of those fears--and the bad taste involved in this nakedly political exploitation of an admired (and progressive) actress's tragic death--there's one little problem with Franklin's theory. It's wrong.
Richardson, Franklin writes, "required an immediate CT scan for diagnosis" after the head injury she sustained in a skiing accident. But, he claims, the hospital in Sainte-Agathe-des-Monts, where she was treated, was not a "facility capable of treatment." Franklin notes that, while "it hasn't been reported whether the hospital has a CT scanner, …CT scanners are less common in Canada." And he goes on to say that people who criticize the private US system for having too many specialized services like CT scanners are ignoring that "it is better to have resources and not need them than to need resources and not have them."
So Franklin's argument is based on the assumption that the hospital in Sainte-Agathe-des-Monts lacked the equipment it would have needed to diagnose Richardson, all because of the decrepit state of government-run medicine.
Franklin, it turns out, is either guilty of deception or shockingly shoddy journalism, or some combination of both. A phone call from The Nation to the Centre Hospitalier Laurentien in Sainte-Agathe-des-Monts elicited some interesting information. The hospital has a CT scanner. Its director of communications would not, out of understandable deference to the family's wishes to protect her medical privacy, divulge whether or not Richardson received a scan. But there's no reason to believe that she did not.
Of course it is possible to miss the proverbial forest for the trees here. The larger point is that, even if the facility had lacked adequate resources, that would not have been the fault of Canada's socialized medicine. Indeed, its national health system has been under assault from its own homegrown neoliberals, especially in Quebec, called "ground zero for healthcare privatization" in a recent report. The proliferation of private clinics has created a two-tiered system that effectively undermines the public system, draining resources and rendering it less functional and less popular. This gambit--eviscerating government services to the point that people lose faith in government, which in turn reinforces the key tenets of conservative ideology--is sadly familiar, a US export Canadians would have been better off without. Let's hope that in the coming healthcare debate, we'll heed the lessons Canada's experience has to offer--grounded in fact, not right-wing fantasy.
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damn them canadians!
Posted by dexter666 at 03/26/2009 @ 5:01pm
Now Ms. Reed, you're the one that's being dishonest here. I know you want to believe in nationalized healthcare, but the sad truth is neither Centre Hospitalier Laurentien or Hôpital du Sacre-Coeur in Montreal could reat her.
You failed to mention that Quebec has no emergency lifeflight helicopters like we do in the US. Ms. Richardson had to be transported by ambulance for over an hour, had a helicopter been available, the trip would have taken around 10 minutes, giving her precious time. She did not have to die.
Posted by ACook at 03/26/2009 @ 5:18pm
How many of them died because they couldn't afford health insurance?
Posted by snowball666 at 03/26/2009 @ 5:13pm
No snowball, lack of insurance doesn't kill you, not seeking immediate medical attention does. And as far as I know, most folks that have had a bad accident on the ski slopes make it to the hospital.
Of course Congressman Bono and the Kennedy kid are an exception...both died on the slopes after slamming into a tree.
Posted by ACook at 03/26/2009 @ 5:24pm
No snowball, lack of insurance doesn't kill you, not seeking immediate medical attention does.
Posted by ACook at 03/26/2009 @ 5:24pm
That is probably true. But you have to address the reason many people do not seek care. Fear of bankruptcy. Lack of healthcare causes many people to not seek care even when the injuries are serious. They think they can handle it and save money.
Also, not having life flight helicopters is not the case throughout Canada; BC, Alberta, Ontario and Nova Scotia have those services. Quebec has two planes instead.
Posted by Extraneous at 03/26/2009 @ 5:51pm
This is junk journalism! I read the original account in the NYP and it was an exceptionally fair & balanced article except that its conclusion was, and anyone who can envision their own family member being in Natasha's `shoes', would have had a lot better chance at surviving, even with the possibility of some brain damage-as the article pointed out, had the accident happened in the skiers' paradise west of Denver.
I had a skiing accident years ago at Lake Tahoe when a ski tip broke the skin on my skull after a hard fall (on moguls)....bit bloody and took a few stitches. None of my family skis w/helmets and likely still wont't. But, this unfortunate incident will be in my mind the next time I go skiing.....and millions of others will as well-especially those starting their children out. Her tragedy will save lives down the road! May Ms. Richardson rest in peace!
Posted by Happy at 03/26/2009 @ 6:01pm
Also, not having life flight helicopters is not the case throughout Canada; BC, Alberta, Ontario and Nova Scotia have those services. Quebec has two planes instead.
Posted by Extraneous at 03/26/2009 @ 5:51pm
You're right, but those provinces also use those services to transport their more catastrophic cases to the US for treatment.
I grew up in Detroit, and Ontario does it quite bit. They have access to all of Michigan's trauma facilities. The governor is a canuck, remember?
Posted by ACook at 03/26/2009 @ 6:14pm
Another perfect example of the Hegelian dialectic being used to divide and conquer us.
Hook... Line... And sinker...
Posted by freiheit1 at 03/26/2009 @ 6:15pm
And you're going out onto a very thin limb making the assumption that a helicopter would have made the difference between life and death in this case.
Posted by snowball666 at 03/26/2009 @ 5:40pm
Yes, I'm a nurse and I know the lifeflights can and do make a difference.
As for Ms. Richardson's case, her subdural hematoma (blunt force trauma) was a slow bleed. She had time, but it was squandered by a system that was not prepared.
This is reminiscent of how Lady Diana died in France. There was no lifeflight for her either.
Posted by ACook at 03/26/2009 @ 6:37pm
Lifeflights do make a difference...isn't that why we have them in the first place?
Posted by Thrawn at 03/26/2009 @ 6:49pm
I cannot believe some of the commentary on health care this case has generated and the fear some are trying to instill in Americans re socialized medicine; no one knows the facts of her death, or what may or may not have been done to save her.
Here is a fact; The US Infant mortality rate is 7 per 1000; a ranking of 29th in the World, Cuba is ahead of you! You are the richest and most powerful country in the world and you accept that? You are heading into 3rd World territory. The Infant mortality rate is used as an indicator of a country's state of health development. Most of America's peers such as Canada, France are in the 5 per 1000 rate. Average life expectancy for an American 78.6 - Canadian 80.4.
Posted by remywill at 03/26/2009 @ 7:00pm
Here is a fact; The US Infant mortality rate is 7 per 1000; a ranking of 29th in the World, Cuba is ahead of you! You are the richest and most powerful country in the world and you accept that? You are heading into 3rd World territory. The Infant mortality rate is used as an indicator of a country's state of health development. Most of America's peers such as Canada, France are in the 5 per 1000 rate.
Posted by remywill at 03/26/2009 @ 7:00pm
The figures are misleading as noted in the liberal Slate Magazine
"The surprising truth about America's infant-mortality rate.
By Darshak Sanghavi Posted Friday, March 16, 2007
Comparing infant mortality rates between countries is fraught with uncertainty--after all, it's hard to argue that every country's figures are reliable. But it's still worth asking what more we can do to stop babies from dying. Defined as death before one year of age, infant mortality frequently gets framed in the United States as a problem of insufficient health-care funding.
However, a closer look reveals the counterintuitive possibility that high infant mortality in the United States might be the unintended side effect of increased spending on medical care.
According to a 2002 analysis by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, at least a third of all infant mortality in the United States arises from complications of prematurity; other studies assert the figure is closer to half.
Thus-at the risk of oversimplifying--infant mortality in the United States principally is a problem of premature birth, which today complicates just over one in 10 pregnancies.
http://www.slate.com/id/2161899?nav=tap3
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 7:37pm
Life flights absolutely save lives when they don't crash. At least four life flights crashed this past year in the US. One in Oregon, one in Illinois, and 2 in Arizona (same incident).
A 2005 USATODAY report states "Since 2000, 60 people have died in 84 crashes -- more than double the number of crashes during the previous five years. During that period, more than 10% of the U.S. air ambulance helicopter fleet crashed. If commercial airlines lost the same proportion of large passenger jets as air ambulance companies lost helicopters, 90 airliners would crash each year."
Maybe the amublance is safer...
On another note, I was in a skiing accident a few years back, where I broke some ribs and lacerated my spleen. Broke both my poles, tore my bindings out of my skis and broke both skis (Brand new Rossi's). I skied down on borrowed equipment and had a friend drive me to the hospital. Since then I started wearing a helment. Second day wearing it, I had a football size chunk of ice fall off a lift tower and hit my head. If I had not had my helment on I would have had a nice size gash in my head, and potentially knocked unconscious and fallen off the lift. Helmets should be required, they save lives. Skiers are required to have breaks on their skis to prevent the hazard of runaway skis, they should also require helmets as well.
Posted by Extraneous at 03/26/2009 @ 7:37pm
But if you really want to understand how deceiving the statistics on infant mortality are, this information on how most countries except the US don't go by the WHO reporting requirements
According to the World Health Organization (WHO) definition, all babies showing any signs of life, such as muscle activity, a gasp for breath or a heartbeat, should be included as a live birth. The U.S. strictly follows this definition.
Russia and Eastern Bloc countries
A UNICEF press release noted: "Under the Soviet era definition ... infants who are born at less than 28 weeks, weighing less than 1,000 grams or measuring less than 35 centimeters are not counted as live births if they die within seven days. This Soviet definition still predominates in many [formerly Soviet] CIS countries."
Switzerland, for instance, doesn't count the deaths of babies shorter than 30 cm, because they are not counted as live births, according to Nicholas Eberstadt, Ph.D., Henry Wendt Scholar in Political Economy at the American Enterprise Institute and formerly a Visiting Fellow at the Harvard University Center for Population and Developmental Studies. So, comparing the 1998 infant mortality rates for Switzerland and the U.S., 4.8 and 7.2 per 1,000 births, respectively, is comparing apples and oranges.
http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=3848
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 7:48pm
*Helmet* lol
Posted by Extraneous at 03/26/2009 @ 7:48pm
So I guess ACOOK is betting that there are NO examples of delayed treatment in the United States based on lack of transportation?
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 8:06pm
Ah yes, must be that all the current stats are wrong and the US is probably #1 and not 29th, yeah that's it.. Well that sure is easier than trying to fix the problem or at least admit that there is one :)
Posted by remywill at 03/26/2009 @ 8:13pm
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 7:48pm
So what IS the "real" infant mortality rating of the USA to other countries, Larry?
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 8:38pm
So what IS the "real" infant mortality rating of the USA to other countries, Larry?
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 8:38pm
kind of rushed right now but it appears we are somewhere in the top ten, probably the lower half of it. but we definitely are nowhere near as low as was charged.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 8:41pm
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 8:41pm
Tell ya what, give you time...and you get me the exact listing and your source.
I'll wait. Anticipation is half the fun.
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 8:53pm
"I read the original account in the NYP and it was an exceptionally fair & balanced article..."--Happy
This is ridiculous. How can something be described as exceptionally when by definition the item the adverb is describing is false. Why one would even take you seriously is beyond me. All I can hope is that the damage is due to the skiing accident and not a matter of genes.
Posted by onthehelm at 03/26/2009 @ 9:55pm
<i>Posted by onthehelm at 03/26/2009 @ 9:55pm </i>
Huh? Maybe I'm missing something, but...what is the "item the adverb is describing"? Canadacare? Does Canada have a specific health-care system? I believe that was the referent of the article. Not to add obviousness, but...surely no one's actually arguing that the difference between Canada's system and ours, the "fatal flaw"...is lifeflight.
<i>Posted by Extraneous at 03/26/2009 @ 7:37pm</i>
Um, ok? And how many of the people would have survived...absent lifeflight? This argument is silly, and if anything just entails "do lifeflight better." Not having to deal with traffic is a huge advantage in and of itself.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/26/2009 @ 10:24pm
So I guess ACOOK is betting that there are NO examples of delayed treatment in the United States based on lack of transportation?
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 8:06pm
There you go again using circular arguments that lead to nowhere.
Posted by ACook at 03/26/2009 @ 10:28pm
Here is a fact; The US Infant mortality rate is 7 per 1000; a ranking of 29th in the World, Cuba is ahead of you! You are the richest and most powerful country in the world and you accept that? You are heading into 3rd World territory. The Infant mortality rate is used as an indicator of a country's state of health development. Most of America's peers such as Canada, France are in the 5 per 1000 rate. Average life expectancy for an American 78.6 - Canadian 80.4. Posted by remywill at 03/26/2009 @ 7:00pm
Ooh, we love statistics (thanks,FZ!) Here are some good ones:
Maternal mortality:
US: 8 per 100,000 France: 10 per 100,000 CUBA: 33 per 100,000
I didn't see 'Sicko' - Did Michael Moore take any pregnant females to Cuba with him? Probably not. So how is it that a National health Service directly decreases infant mortality (which remy seems to be asserting here), but according to these stats, directly increases maternal mortality? That doesn't seem desirable at all.
Suicide rate in males: US: 19.8 per 100,000 Canada: 21.5 per 100,000 Switzerland: 29.5 per 100,000
So, shouldn't nationalized health care provide better psychiatric care that our "screwed-up" system? Maybe not.
Posted by twillie at 03/26/2009 @ 10:30pm
Tell ya what, give you time...and you get me the exact listing and your source. I'll wait. Anticipation is half the fun. Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 8:53pm
I've got a better idea, mask. Why not go read the Slate article? You're not afraid of new ideas, are you? When someone convinces me I'm wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?
Posted by twillie at 03/26/2009 @ 10:33pm
Posted by Extraneous at 03/26/2009 @ 7:37pm
Ex, that's 7.5 people per year over an 8-year period. Still, having a life saving system like lifeflight outweighs any risks that come with flying a helicopter.
Posted by ACook at 03/26/2009 @ 10:35pm
our health care system,
while having to undergo the weight of a massive insurance lobby looking for MORE MUNNEE, channeling through neo-gringoral politeeshens,
is kinda good.
just ask the numerous cancer survivors that i know.
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/26/2009 @ 10:42pm
RAPTOR!!!!!!
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/26/2009 @ 10:45pm
How did humans survive 30,000 years without helmets or flight-for-life helicopters?
Richardson died of a freak accident. I've been skiing - without a helmet - for 40 years, was a ski instructor, and even suffered a concussion once when skiing. Skiing is a dangerous sport. Gravity is relentless and unforgiving. You can get hurt and gravity doesn't care. It ain't DisneyLand up there.
How many people die in car accidents every year? How many die of tobacco related illnesses? Why is this one isolated incident getting any press?
Posted by Balrog at 03/26/2009 @ 11:19pm
Why is this one isolated incident getting any press?
Posted by Balrog at 03/26/2009 @ 11:19pm
blame the marsh mice.
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/26/2009 @ 11:23pm
Question....
What if you ski into a tree, but in the USA not Can., and your only health insurance is Medicaid? Isn't the helicopter sent or does it turn around once they get a radio message that you have Medicaid?
Do they send a St. Bernard dog instead?
If the life-flight does respond and take you to the hospital, doesn't the Govt. pay for it?
Posted by koroviev at 03/26/2009 @ 11:40pm
US health care system?
Healthy?
Caring?
A system?
What a sick joke. What a huge scam.
About as honest as Wall St. derivatives dealing.
Posted by sloper at 03/27/2009 @ 12:01am
While life-flight MIGHT have saved her it not guaranteed that it WOULD have for multiple reasons:
1. You can't be sure if they would have gotten to the condition in time. You can speak with as much certainty as you want but you can't be certain because you are not pre-cognitive.
2. Depending on weather life-flight may not even have been able to land. I worked on a show at Crystal, Mountain Washington about the ski patrol there. There were a total of about 6 cases that were qualified for life-flight. Only 3 of them got it, the rest had to be transported by ambulance. So even in America depending on conditions life-flight may not come for you.
It has nothing to do with the medical system because it hs already been shown that Canada DOES have life flight and DOES have CT scanners. You can postulate that the reason she didn't get a life-flight is because of the medical system but you can't know that because you don't actually have the facts as to why THAT region doesn't have life-flight or if in fact it doesn't have life flight. I haven't bothered to look up if it does in fact have life-flight.
For those of you who say that sometimes Canada flies people to America to get treatment here, sometimes Americans go to Mexico to get cheaper pharmaceuticals does that mean our system is worthless? What about when we import in people to do what are considered "extreme" surgeries? Does that mean our system is broken? If you say no then you better take back that BS argument.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/27/2009 @ 02:08am
Another nice batch of statistics is life expectancy. According to Wikipedia, both Canada and France fall into the "over 80" category, while the USA remains in the "77.5-80" category.
"Comparing infant mortality rates between countries is fraught with uncertainty" said "antisocialist."
Yes, but can we be any more certain of judgements about other countries' health care systems based upon the sensationalized example of one individual celebrity?
However flawed some infant-mortality studies may be, they at least count more than one case, don't they?
Posted by JakobFabian at 03/27/2009 @ 02:16am
Posted by ACook at 03/26/2009 @ 10:28pm
Why is it "circular"? Your argument is that Canada's system is bad because of lack of air transport and trying to support the idea that it contributed to Natasha Richardson's death....
so....if several or even many examples of a lack of transport leading to a death, exist in the United States, then it has nothing to do with our system versus theirs. Does it?
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 06:16am
Why is it "circular"? Your argument is that Canada's system is bad because of lack of air transport and trying to support the idea that it contributed to Natasha Richardson's death....
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 06:16am
Re-read my earlier post you big fibber! I never said Canada's system was bad, I said the hospitals she went to could not treat her (which is not indicative of being bad). And I also said, flying her by air ambulance would have given her much needed time.
Posted by ACook at 03/27/2009 @ 06:40am
For those of you who say that sometimes Canada flies people to America to get treatment here, sometimes Americans go to Mexico to get cheaper pharmaceuticals does that mean our system is worthless? What about when we import in people to do what are considered "extreme" surgeries? Does that mean our system is broken? If you say no then you better take back that BS argument.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/27/2009 @ 02:08am
C3, I'm the one that said Canada airlifts a lot of cases to the US for very serious trauma cases. Those seeking pharmaceuticals in either Mexico or Canada is an entirely different matter. Those individuals do it because of cost, which has nothing to do with trauma.
No foreign medical doctor can come to the US to perform any "extreme" surgeries unless they are licensed by the states medical boards and have a proven track record of performing that particular type of surgery. Many don't pass because their medical knowledge is subpar and they don't speak the english language.
Note: Performing any surgery or treating a person without a medical license is a felony. You'll get anywhere from 5 to 15 years in prison.
Posted by ACook at 03/27/2009 @ 06:56am
I am finding avg costs of Life Flights is between $4500 and $6000. Not much if it saves your life, but if you are not insured it is a big chunk. Some, if not most, insurance does not cover Life Flights, or even ambulance transport. Many people that sustain the type of injury that Richardson had do not know they are in danger and may refuse to commit to a $4500 bill they may not need to incur. So, I think ACOOK is feeding us herring. If the ski slope had a CAT machine, she may have lived, shall we require that?
50% of bankruptcies in the USA are due to medical expenses. In my neck of the woods physicians and hospitals are seeing upwards of 25-30% drop in business as we hit 12% unemployment, and rising ( I predict 15% by July). When people lose insurance they stop going for check-ups, and eventually it costs all of us more. As we see the continuing effects of the incestor class desired "global market", we see a decrease in wages. Their philosophy is that all should pay out of pocket, but then they turn around and pay us less, or send our job somewhere labor is cheap so we cannot afford to pay as-we-go. Then they will whine and moan about paying for Universal Care. They make the bed, piss in it then cry about the wet spot.
Posted by crabwalk at 03/27/2009 @ 07:03am
Betsy is incorrect in thinking that public healthcare will solve our current problems,because it will not force the providers to lower their prices: it will merely give them more places to obtain the money for their already high prices.
That having been said, I agree that the scare tactics used by the Post are despicable. They would have no clue as to whether incompetency or a fluke killed Richardson, and it appears it was the latter. They should stick to chimpanzee jokes.
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 03/27/2009 @ 07:22am
Everyone here seems to have forgotten that the FIRST ambulance was there in very little time (part of the standard operating procedure) and was turned away by Natasha Richardson who was, for the first hour, feeling just fine. So in a large measure this is a public awareness problem - the "talk and die" syndrom is simply not known as it should be. The brain does not feel pain, so until blood starts making real trouble, everything is just fine. As regards NON-socialised medicine, it definitely works excellently for the rich. National health care never does as well. Coming from the country where both options are available and private medicine is not bancruptcy- inducing, I must confess that we have either used private sector or paid extra (sometimes illegally, though there is also the official option of paying for jumping the queue) to the public one in nearly all the cases in our extended family. The few times we have went totally the public way have been disappointing, to say the least. Yet the private care is affordable, and the number of cases of friends of mine in the US who had the best private insurance (Blue Cross, for example) and still had to spend the life savings on cancer operations in cases where the surgeons/anesthesiologists refused to treat the patient for insurance (nothing but cash!) have been pretty amazing. A Spanish friend had the Blue Cross, made all the payments and when in real trouble was only saved back home thanks to dual citizenship. So socialised medicine has its problems but for those below the middle income its still better than nothing, and the American system seems to have gone to the other extreme where even members of upper middle class go bankrupt if serious illness strikes. Movie stars are probably better off in the US than in Canada.
Posted by distantobserver at 03/27/2009 @ 07:33am
I want to emphasize that the following is a joke, so please don't post evidence to "disprove" it:
In the US it's almost impossible to get an abortion because the protests, even violent attacks, have closed down so many clinics, and where available it is difficult to afford.
In countries with socialized medicine, abortion is universally availqble, safe and paid for by taxes, but the waiting lists are over a year long.
Posted by Mistral at 03/27/2009 @ 08:25am
Posted by ACook at 03/27/2009 @ 06:40am
So if I ask you "Do you think Canada's system is bad?"....
you won't say "Yes, but it's completely coincidental that I was attacking how their hospitals couldnt' treat her and how they didn't have adequate transportation!"????
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 08:26am
I want to emphasize that the following is a joke....--Posted by Mistral at 03/27/2009 @ 08:25am
It was?
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 08:42am
some real news:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/27/2009 @ 09:06am
no health care for you!
the oligarchs must be rescued!
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/27/2009 @ 09:11am
Posted by Mistral at 03/27/2009 @ 08:25am | ignore this person | warn this person
so funny I forgot to laugh.
Posted by emile duBois at 03/27/2009 @ 09:20am
In countries with socialized medicine, abortion is universally availqble, safe and paid for by taxes, but the waiting lists are over a year long.
Posted by Mistral at 03/27/2009 @ 08:25am | ignore this person | warn this person
really?
really...
where you get this?
Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/27/2009 @ 09:49am
Well Mistral, you big lug, looks like you didn't use a large enough type face for the word "joke"! And gallows humour, well golly, only the President can really do that justice.
BTW, did you see the news trucks out in front of the AIG building this morning?
Posted by HonestLiberal at 03/27/2009 @ 09:55am
a helmet would have saved her life.
Posted by emile duBois at 03/27/2009 @ 10:09am
Posted by emile duBois at 03/27/2009 @ 10:09am
They don't have helmets in Canada because of their socialism!
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 10:36am
I thought it was the tyranny of the left that prevented helmet sales?
----
They should stick to chimpanzee jokes.
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 03/27/2009 @ 07:22am
Posted by Mistral at 03/27/2009 @ 08:25am
Posted by crabwalk at 03/27/2009 @ 11:07am
I thought it was the tyranny of the left that prevented helmet sales? ----
you are out of your fucking mind. it's the phony right wing "libertarians" that want the freedom to kill or injure themselves, and stick us with the bill. see mandatory motorcycles helmets.
Posted by emile duBois at 03/27/2009 @ 11:15am
any one who writes the words "tyranny of the left" is already brain dead, and belongs in the ignore bin.
Posted by emile duBois at 03/27/2009 @ 11:16am
That having been said, I agree that the scare tactics used by the Post are despicable....
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 03/27/2009 @ 07:22am
Do you take the position that any discussion of the observed shortcomings of the Canadian system as "despicable"? And any discussion of the shortcomings of our private healthcare systems as enlightening?
IF our country is moving toward the Canadian model, the folks in the middle and up, better have a damned good idea of not just the pros of a UHC system, but also the cons. And an incident like Ms. Richardson, presents the debate in a form most middle and up folks understand.
From what I see above, no conservatives are saying our system is perfect. Our system is filled with redundancy where most every hospital or large clinics feel they must have the expensive equipments to be `credible' . Of course, they are costly (& even wasteful) from everybody's angle, EXCEPT those who actually gets timely diagnosis from these widely available equip.
Obama doesn't go into details but reducing redundancy is clearly a way to reduce costs.....most businesses call it `re-sizing', `re-deployment', `consolidation'......
I think you're in the printing business....and what's going on in the print biz? Closing of multiple printing plants as newspapers go to sharing of fewer plants, no?
Posted by Happy at 03/27/2009 @ 11:21am
Tell ya what, give you time...and you get me the exact listing and your source.
I'll wait. Anticipation is half the fun.
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 8:53pm
I think you have the question exactly backwards. As noted in the articles I linked, the real issue is that many other countries do not use the WHO standards, whereas the US does in reporting infant mortality rates.
So, it's actually about revising the other countries. Especially noteworthy are the European standards and Russia and the Eastern Bloc countries which tend to report infants who die the first day as stillborns rather than live births.
Secondly, as noted, the number of premature births in this country is far greater than in other countries. This is due to our attitude towards these kinds of births in which we are far more developed in working with this situation and the difference in attitude about actually saving preemies.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 11:28am
Posted by ACook at 03/27/2009 @ 06:56am
So then there is nothing wrong with Canada's care?
We bring in experts from other countries all the time. Maybe they have their licenses here too. But I have definitely heard of multiple cases where they bring in more qualified surgeons in certain fields from other countries. Or American patients go to other countries for treatment. My friends boss had a tumor somewhere on or near his brain and he went to France or Italy for treatment instead of getting it in the US.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/27/2009 @ 11:32am
Since then I started wearing a helment....
Posted by Extraneous at 03/26/2009 @ 7:37pm
I had never paid any attention to ski helmets or how much protection they provide....until the PR raised by Natasha's death.
Now, I've learned that the typical ski helmet is designed to withstand ONLY a speed of 14 mph, even less than a bicycle helmet......they are designed to provide minimal amount of protection from mild concussions....NOT for the average skiier going at least 30~40 mph.
The protection your helmet afforded you, sound much more reasonable as snow and ice falls off tree limbs and ski lifts AND skiers on lifts ALL THE TIME. The helmet's round shape obviously can deflect all but the sharpest objects like a ski tips (before they went to the rounded over-sized bulbs or the recent 10 or so years) that likely would have penetrated a helmet had I had one on....but would have reduced my `damage'.
Anyway, if I am starting out today w/my sons--btw, great, great memories of them skiing between my legs san poles--I would put helmets on them.
Posted by Happy at 03/27/2009 @ 11:33am
Posted by emile duBois at 03/27/2009 @ 11:16am
Emile, breathe.
It was a joke on "anti"
Posted by crabwalk at 03/27/2009 @ 11:33am
So if I ask you "Do you think Canada's system is bad?"....
you won't say "Yes, but it's completely coincidental that I was attacking how their hospitals couldnt' treat her and how they didn't have adequate transportation!"????
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 08:26am
Huh?! Stop talking like you have marbles in your mouth, k?
I've never attacked Canada's healthcare system. They do a good job with giving primary care, they just don't have the extensive specialty (catastrophic/ critical) care that the US has.
As for the Canadian hospitals not being able to treat her there, and then deciding to send her to a hospital in NY, may stem from a number of things... perhaps the hospital was unable to get a neurosurgeon to the hospital in the time that was needed to perform lifesaving surgery. (Most physicians who have a particular specialty are not staffed onsite at most major hospitals)
Hopefully, this incident will get Canadian lawmakers rethink their cost cutting measures when it comes to saving lives.
Posted by ACook at 03/27/2009 @ 11:37am
Actually emile, I may need some help from you. Being one of the newly unemployed in Michigan I am seeking outlets for my work. If you know of any decent art galleries in NY that would accept artistic metalwork, please let me know.
Posted by crabwalk at 03/27/2009 @ 11:39am
"So then there is nothing wrong with Canada's care?"
No.
"We bring in experts from other countries all the time. Maybe they have their licenses here too.
Of course medical experts come to this country, and for a host of different reasons, but they most definately have to pass the boards before they can obtain a medical license to practice or perform surgery.
"But I have definitely heard of multiple cases where they bring in more qualified surgeons in certain fields from other countries."
What cases? and What fields?
"Or American patients go to other countries for treatment."
This type of situation is more common and a lot more risky too.
"My friends boss had a tumor somewhere on or near his brain and he went to France or Italy for treatment instead of getting it in the US."
I hope it wasn't oncology-related and I hope that person is doing much better.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/27/2009 @ 11:32am
Posted by ACook at 03/27/2009 @ 12:04pm
HAPPY this is CHIP
I'm in the book publishing business. We are slow but have no debt so are better off than most.
Discussion on the Canadian Health Care system is not despicable: An attempt to exploit the death of this unfortunate woman to push a political point is.
My basic premise regarding healthcare is that unless you address the costs of healthcare, you will never fix the problem. There are those on here who do not care about the costs, but rather feel health coverage is some sort of right, which is why logic seems to fall on deaf ears. I'm almost thinking we may as well just socialize it, because my solution will never be adopted: It's considered to mean spirited by those who think we can extricate ourselves from a 40 year old screwup with no pain-just spend your way out. One thing's for sure: The semi-socialist mess we have now can't go on.
Posted by PRESTERJOHNofASIA at 03/27/2009 @ 12:05pm
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 11:28am
Sooooooooo, after more than 12 hours, you can't even find a RIGHT-WING news source to give us the "real" U.S. infant mortality rate....just more on how them other countries are counting "wrong"?
Seems your research only goes so far, Larry??!!????? Or somebody's.
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 12:07pm
Posted by crabwalk at 03/27/2009 @ 11:39am
I didn't know you weren't working. Do you have a website to show your work?
Posted by ACook at 03/27/2009 @ 12:09pm
Emile, breathe. It was a joke on "anti" Posted by crabwalk at 03/27/2009 @ 11:33am | ignore this person | warn this person
it was unclear who had posted what. had I known it was coming from you, the irony would have been apparent.
I know very little of the hundreds of NYC galleries. I suggest a google.
Posted by emile duBois at 03/27/2009 @ 12:26pm
Posted by ACook at 03/27/2009 @ 12:04pm
Usually the cases I have heard of involve some sort of brain related surgery or spinal related.
The person is doing a lot better.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/27/2009 @ 12:26pm
My basic premise regarding healthcare is that unless you address the costs of healthcare, you will never fix the problem.
single payer costs less.
Posted by emile duBois at 03/27/2009 @ 12:42pm
meanwhile,
citi and boa and and are <i>buying more</i> of
the
TOXIK WASTE!
that's right,
using the ol' bailout shovel to shovel up <¡>more<!> of what mr. geithner's new plan is supposed to levitate from their "books".
and guessss who's gonna be a-"lendin'" the coinage for the loanin' to the INVESTORS.
i like our health care. the ultimate question is who will organize, the public or private sector.
just as i feel we should all share the cost/benefits of a NON-PROFIT police force, we should all share the cost/benefits of a NON-PROFIT medical system.
after all,
they both protect the common good.
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/27/2009 @ 12:59pm
and don't eat to much cornbasedfooditem.
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/27/2009 @ 1:00pm
I didn't know you weren't working. Do you have a website to show your work?
Posted by ACook at 03/27/2009 @ 12:09pm
soon. that has been my stupid, I have not created a website till now. Didn't really "need it" as I had enough work to keep me busy along with my "real" job. Now I have lot's of time. I desire to remain anonymous here, but I will post some pics on an anonymous picture site soon.
----
I know very little of the hundreds of NYC galleries. I suggest a google.
Posted by emile duBois at 03/27/2009 @ 12:26pm
Understood.
----
If any of you, or your friends, associates, relatives, cell mates, etc need :
gates; pedestrian or vehicular
railings
hearth equipment
metal furniture
mailbox
Kitchen hoods
armor
blades/sai's/bludgeoning devices
lighting fixtures
sculpture
almost anything made from iron/steel, bronze, aluminum or copper. I make pretty things that last lifetimes.
Shameless self promotion is my new mantra.
Posted by crabwalk at 03/27/2009 @ 1:06pm
Posted by ACook at 03/27/2009 @ 11:37am
Whoa, sorry, kiddo. But you've got to realize this is not our usual assumption about ACOOK here.
Given your preponderance of right-wing positions on the issues, it's a bit jarring to learn that you are NOT attacking the Canadian health care system, but actually PRAISED it.
It's like lvlib/anti-socks coming out with "I don't want prayer in schools" or something.
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 1:22pm
An attempt to exploit the death of this unfortunate woman to push a political point is.
Posted by PRESTERJOHNofASIA at 03/27/2009 @ 12:05pm
This is where we differ, rather materially. The NYP writer was not political even if one does get the sense he would far prefer to have suffered such accident under OUR system.......if you take the time to read it, he/she provided a `flow chart' of the chain of events (or non-events) and hypothesized as to how they MAY differ from a Colorado accident without forcing us to conclude she would've definitely survived w/out ANY damage.
This sort of reaction from moderates like you is exactly why I despair that this issue will go down fully debated.....recall the rushed and no-debate Pork Bill, except the consequences are lasting, as in generational. I believe in Democracy but on something this profound, honest debates must be given a chance....literally, a constitutional debate worth debate.
Also, unfortunately in a big way, my med school bound son is part of this critical issue.
Posted by Happy at 03/27/2009 @ 1:26pm
Shameless self promotion is my new mantra.
Posted by crabwalk at 03/27/2009 @ 1:06pm
i hope johnny maaschthis doesn't see that.
maybe you could make an anti-sachs'o'dough cone of silence for prime minister obama.
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/27/2009 @ 1:27pm
...a constitutional debate worth debate....
Pardon, my Bushy moment.....correct as you see fit!
Posted by Happy at 03/27/2009 @ 1:28pm
"The NYP writer was not political ...."------Posted by Happy at 03/27/2009 @ 1:26pm
And Fox News is "fair and balanced", right?
"Since 1993, it has been owned by media mogul Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation, which had owned it previously from 1976 to 1988."-----wikipedia
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 1:54pm
Well HAPPY
Then we agree to disagree, I guess, and thank you for the label "moderate" if I must have one. I equate that with an "intelligently-formulating-opinions- logically-and-without-regard-to-whether- it-fits-with-left-or-right-wing-thinking" type.
And Emile, regarding SP systems
I can only hope your right.
Posted by PRESTERJOHNofASIA at 03/27/2009 @ 2:18pm
Sooooooooo, after more than 12 hours, you can't even find a RIGHT-WING news source to give us the "real" U.S. infant mortality rate....just more on how them other countries are counting "wrong"?
Seems your research only goes so far, Larry??!!????? Or somebody's.
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 12:07pm
you are once again distorting what I said.
I said upon reflection, the issue isn't the US statistics, it is that of most countries which are not abiding by the same standard imposed by WHO. thus if European countries like France and Italy along with Russia and all the Eastern Bloc countries treat a 1st day death as a stillborn whereas we obey the rule and report it as a live birth, then the figures are not reliable.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 2:22pm
And Emile, regarding SP systems I can only hope your right. Posted by PRESTERJOHNofASIA at 03/27/2009 @ 2:18pm | ignore this person | warn this person
most first world countries use single payer. seems to work.
Posted by emile duBois at 03/27/2009 @ 2:24pm
most first world countries use single payer. seems to work.
Posted by emile duBois at 03/27/2009 @ 2:24pm
It seems Obama based upon his response in the Townhall session disagrees with you, at least as far as the US is concerned.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 2:28pm
"i hope johnny maaschthis doesn't see that. "
If Johnny is what he says he is, his money is as good as anybody else's. (better, if you believe him!) It has always been my goal to take as much money from the wealthy as I am able, so I may join them.
Posted by crabwalk at 03/27/2009 @ 2:38pm
Posted by Happy at 03/27/2009 @ 1:26pm
"Canadacare May Have Killed Natasha" is the title of the story. Any attempt to say that that is not political is kool-aid talkin'.
Posted by crabwalk at 03/27/2009 @ 2:43pm
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 2:22pm
I know it's not the issue you WANT to talk about, Larry....but why is that?
Seems your sources would have the "real" infant mortality listing for the US versus them lyin' Commies and Euro-trash....???
Or would it STILL turn out to be embarassing if we're 7th, 8th, 9th...to countries with that "socialized medicine"????
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 2:44pm
Posted by crabwalk at 03/27/2009 @ 1:06pm | ignore this person | warn this person
one suggestion. go over your client list, there's gold in there. send all your old clients a mailing, maybe offer a discount.
I'll let you know when I've taken my own advice.
Posted by emile duBois at 03/27/2009 @ 2:53pm
I know it's not the issue you WANT to talk about, Larry....but why is that?
Seems your sources would have the "real" infant mortality listing for the US versus them lyin' Commies and Euro-trash....???
Or would it STILL turn out to be embarassing if we're 7th, 8th, 9th...to countries with that "socialized medicine"????
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 2:44pm
Mask, wouldn't life be easier if you stayed on context instead of trying your hardest to redefine everything.
I didn't say that Europe, Russia and the Eastern Bloc lie. I said that they are not abiding by the WHO standards for reporting. Every country is certainly free to define a statistic as they wish. However, it then means that the statistics aren't really comparable if countries are not using the same standard.
There really isn't anything further to add on this. Accept each country's data in light of the fact that the standards are different. But that fact must be taken into consideration before either attacking the US compared to others.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 2:58pm
But that fact must be taken into consideration before either attacking the US compared to others.----Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 2:58pm
Yet you can't DEFEND the US compared to others????
You came up with a nice little article yesterday....but went "dry hole" on giving us the "real" US versus others infant mortality.
Again, why is that, Larry?
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 3:03pm
You came up with a nice little article yesterday....but went "dry hole" on giving us the "real" US versus others infant mortality.
Again, why is that, Larry?
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 3:03pm
Mask, are you just being obstinate?
I corrected my assumptions in these posts to you.
I will accept the US data as consistent with WHO's reporting requirements.
As I note, the problem is the inconsistency of the data standards between countries.
I can't see anything to be gained by continuing to repeat this.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 11:28am
I said upon reflection, the issue isn't the US statistics, it is that of most countries which are not abiding by the same standard imposed by WHO. thus if European countries like France and Italy along with Russia and all the Eastern Bloc countries treat a 1st day death as a stillborn whereas we obey the rule and report it as a live birth, then the figures are not reliable.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 2:22pm
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 3:09pm
Between 5:18 p.m. on 3/26 amd 12:09 p.m. on 3/27 "acook" posted 11 times to this thread. Between 7:37 p.m. on 3/26 and 3:09 p.m. on 3/27, "antisocialist" posted eight times.
I would speculate that they're being paid to do this by some right wing group, or they are a couple of freeping wankers with an awful lot of time on their hands to express their idiotic arguments.
Then again it might just be pathological narcissism that urges them to tell us what they claim to be thinking on an almost hourly basis.
Posted by Eugene_Debs at 03/27/2009 @ 4:34pm
Posted by Eugene_Debs at 03/27/2009 @ 4:34pm
What about those with whom you agree, Eugene?
Are they exhibiting any of that "pathological narcissism" you're referring to?
Or, like most on the left, do you have two sets of rules?
Posted by freiheit1 at 03/27/2009 @ 5:28pm
Posted by Eugene_Debs at 03/27/2009 @ 4:34pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Definately NOT from the deep end of the pool.
Posted by comancheamerican at 03/27/2009 @ 6:22pm
Posted by freiheit1 at 03/27/2009 @ 5:28pm
nice gotcha Frei!
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 6:53pm
It seems Obama based upon his response in the Townhall session disagrees with you, at least as far as the US is concerned.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 2:28pm
that's because prime minister obama has a job to do.
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/27/2009 @ 7:09pm
Or, like most on the left, do you have two sets of rules?
Posted by freiheit1 at 03/27/2009 @ 5:28pm
that's so provincial of you, frei.
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/27/2009 @ 7:10pm
rio,
that's one "definately" too many.
is our planet "finate"?
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/27/2009 @ 7:11pm
Then again it might just be pathological narcissism that urges them to tell us what they claim to be thinking on an almost hourly basis.
Posted by Eugene_Debs at 03/27/2009 @ 4:34pm
hey, it's better than watching judge judy.
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/27/2009 @ 7:12pm
A few points, IMR: I'm sorry but all the data I've seen on US Infant Mortality rates shows the US is far below many countries with socialized medicine; which BTW are most developed/industrialized countries in the world. The point is you are the richest and most powerful country in the world and you can do better.
Socialize Health Care: I'm a Canadian, I live in Toronto and have had exceptional medical care and access anytime it has been required, does that mean it's perfect? Hell no it's not but it's pretty darn good and equal for everyone. Is the American private/for profit system awful? No, it clearly works for some or there would not be such a stink about all this.
The point is the death of this poor woman was a FREAK ski accident, of which no one (including the New York Times)knows what the real facts are, period. But what is very wrong, is that you have right wing Americans trashing an entire Nations health care system based on this one case and that is what is just wrong.
Posted by remywill at 03/27/2009 @ 7:15pm
....Americans trashing an entire Nations health care system based on this one case and that is what is just wrong.
Posted by remywill at 03/27/2009 @ 7:15pm
I challenge you to prove the "trashing" in any of the posts here! Pointing out differences, such as lesser availability of CT machines or helicopter transport is hardly "trashing". Your response is the real "trashing" of open discussions/debates.
Bottom line is, why would many sane Canadians willingly shell out-of-pocket $$$ to come to the US for medical care.....besides the money, not real convenient for friends and family to visit, no?
Since 90%+ of Canucks live within 100 miles of the US border, you have the best of both world. Without the US serving as a easily reached relief valve, who knows how bad the complaints might be on your side of the border.
Posted by Happy at 03/27/2009 @ 9:26pm
Since 90%+ of Canucks live within 100 miles of the US border, you have the best of both world. Without the US serving as a easily reached relief valve, who knows how bad the complaints might be on your side of the border.
Posted by Happy at 03/27/2009 @ 9:26pm
yep.
we can get our blood pressure "chequed" AND pick up an uzi all at the same time!
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/28/2009 @ 08:04am
Back to the original topic, today the Globe and Mail has a detailed time line on her death, it looks like she was in bad shape but still okay (a 12 out of 15 on the Glasgow scale - not good but treatable, and an orientation ratng of 0 which means she didn't know where she was or what was happening, when she left the resort (it only took 5 min to get her to the small local hospital), however it sounds like she was most likely brain dead by the time she got to Montreal and a neurologist. I don't know anything about medical treatment and maybe there is a good reason, but why would they have treated her in her room for 45 minutes (they say there was a doctor at the clinic at the resort) and then take her to a small rural hospital instead of going directly to the trauma centre in Montreal? Sad, sounds like a whole lot of should of, could of and if only...
Here's the link to the G&M if you're interested
http://www.theglobeandmail.com
Posted by remywill at 03/28/2009 @ 09:26am
it also states "A private medical clinic with a physician is steps from the hotel. But the owner said Ms. Richardson didn't seek treatment".
Posted by remywill at 03/28/2009 @ 09:33am
Privatization run amok:
"WILKES-BARRE, Pa. -- Things were different in the Luzerne County juvenile courtroom, and everyone knew it. Proceedings on average took less than two minutes. Detention center workers were told in advance how many juveniles to expect at the end of each day -- even before hearings to determine their innocence or guilt. Lawyers told families not to bother hiring them. They would not be allowed to speak anyway.
In what authorities are calling the biggest legal scandal in state history, the two judges pleaded guilty to tax evasion and wire fraud in a scheme that involved sending thousands of juveniles to two private detention centers in exchange for $2.6 million in kickbacks."
http://tinyurl.com/dye8gq
Posted by crabwalk at 03/28/2009 @ 10:26am
I'll let you know when I've taken my own advice.
Posted by emile duBois at 03/27/2009 @ 2:53pm
: )
thanks for the tip,
said the congressman to the leper.
Posted by crabwalk at 03/28/2009 @ 10:30am
"I challenge you to prove the "trashing" in any of the posts here!-posted by braindeadhappy
"Canadacare May Have Killed Natasha"
nope, no trashing here, nope, none, nada, zip.
Posted by crabwalk at 03/28/2009 @ 10:34am
I have a simple question for those slam US healthcare. If you had a serious bodily injury accident, would you rather be treated in the United States or Cuba?
As for skiiers on the slopes in Colorado having Medicaid, apparently someone hasn't visited the slopes in Colorado. Skiing in Colorado is expensive. People who are on Medicaid can't afford it.
Posted by jsens at 03/28/2009 @ 11:41am
It is not a question of slamming US care, the question is "Is there a better way to pay for it?". Removing the 28-30% overhead claimed by administration fees seems to me to be a fine place to start.
Posted by crabwalk at 03/28/2009 @ 11:54am
...Skiing in Colorado is expensive. People who are on Medicaid can't afford it.
Posted by jsens at 03/28/2009 @ 11:41am
At least, not until after they figure out the secrets of Octomom.......
Soon, coming to a seminar near you.....Rich Mom, Poor Mom....see & hear the world famous story of how to amasss fabulous wealth (and kids)......all built on nothing down and nothing EVER to pay!
Posted by Happy at 03/28/2009 @ 1:49pm
all built on nothing down and nothing EVER to pay!
Posted by Happy at 03/28/2009 @ 1:49p
sounds more like aig.
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/28/2009 @ 9:12pm
R.I.P Ms. Richardson.
Everyone else, when you bang your head and medical treatment is offered please accept it. "tis better to be safe then sorry."
Posted by nyknicks12 at 03/28/2009 @ 9:57pm
to those of you using ms. richardson's death to praise the american health care system and/or diminish the canadian health care system:
FUCK YOU AND BURN IN HELL!
Posted by darladoon at 03/29/2009 @ 12:04am
How do so many trolls fit under one bridge?
It's not only "acook" and "antisocialist" living on line, but "frosty_zoom" has posted 11 times to this thread since 10:42 PM on 3/26, all time of the day and night.
They need to get a life, or a job, or maybe posting to The Nation and wherever else IS their job.
Posted by Eugene_Debs at 03/29/2009 @ 3:25pm
hey capt. clusterbomb- how is "the forty year old virgin" doing today. Did you clean his cage, or are you going to let the lil coward wallow in his own filth forever? If that little asshole fucks with my goats just one more time, well, i can't be held accountable for my actions... I hope you contract dengue fever and cholera simultaneously and die in a gutter in el salvador you murderous swine. Paddle out right next to the fishing peir in libertad after a hard rain you cancer. You are a human vermin.
Posted by entropy at 03/29/2009 @ 4:22pm
were you bobby zimm's muse bipedal cockaroach?
Come you masters of war You that build all the guns You that build the death planes You that build all the bombs You that hide behind walls You that hide behind desks I just want you to know I can see through your masks.
You that never done nothin' But build to destroy You play with my world Like it's your little toy You put a gun in my hand And you hide from my eyes And you turn and run farther When the fast bullets fly.
Like Judas of old You lie and deceive A world war can be won You want me to believe But I see through your eyes And I see through your brain Like I see through the water That runs down my drain.
You fasten all the triggers For the others to fire Then you sit back and watch When the death count gets higher You hide in your mansion' As young people's blood Flows out of their bodies And is buried in the mud.
You've thrown the worst fear That can ever be hurled Fear to bring children Into the world For threatening my baby Unborn and unnamed You ain't worth the blood That runs in your veins.
How much do I know To talk out of turn You might say that I'm young You might say I'm unlearned But there's one thing I know Though I'm younger than you That even Jesus would never Forgive what you do.
Let me ask you one question Is your money that good Will it buy you forgiveness Do you think that it could I think you will find When your death takes it's toll All the money you made Will never buy back your soul.
And I hope that you die And your death'll come soon I will follow your casket In the pale afternoon And I'll watch while you're lowered Down to your deathbed And I'll stand over your grave 'Til I'm sure that you're dead
Posted by entropy at 03/29/2009 @ 4:27pm
They need to get a life,...
Posted by Eugene_Debs at 03/29/2009 @ 3:25pm
What kind of a Eugene_Debs would find the time to throw nerf balls at anybody?
Posted by Happy at 03/29/2009 @ 11:00pm
The really disturbing thing is that the Chicago Tribune, a major newspaper, would publish such a piece of worthless, non-factual crap by a well known right-wing writer such as Cory Franklin. I'd expect to see it in Murdoch's NY Post (which reprinted it immediately) but has the Trib descended to fishwrap? No third year journalism student would have let this garbage go by in a student paper.
You can ask the editor what he was thinking about when he passed on this tripe. I did so, days ago, but he hasn't bothered to answer.
Reach him at:
H. Bruce Dold Chicago Tribune Editorial Page Editor bdold@tribune.com
Posted by Eugene_Debs at 03/30/2009 @ 09:45am
I would speculate that they're being paid to do this by some right wing group
Posted by Eugene_Debs at 03/27/2009 @ 4:34pm
Paranoid idiot. Gods, if there's one lesson the left should have learned from COINTELPRO and other activities by the state over the least 40 years, it's that we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that anyone is a provocateur or an infillitrator without DAMN good evidence.
Or, like most on the left, do you have two sets of rules?
Posted by freiheit1 at 03/27/2009 @ 5:28pm
Partisan idiot. I don't like sterotyping, unprovable assumptions or bigotry from the left, center or right.
Posted by cka2nd at 03/30/2009 @ 2:17pm
Yes, I'm a nurse and I know the lifeflights can and do make a difference.
As for Ms. Richardson's case, her subdural hematoma (blunt force trauma) was a slow bleed. She had time, but it was squandered by a system that was not prepared.
This is reminiscent of how Lady Diana died in France. There was no lifeflight for her either.
Posted by ACook at 03/26/2009 @ 6:37pm
Dear ACook: My Father had an accident on a SUBStandard Union Pacific Railroad Crossing. An Ambulance took Him to the local Hospital (in Delta Colorado) . I was told They were going to transfer Him by Ambulance to Grand Junction Colorado (about an hours drive. Shortly after that I was told He was going by Flight for Life (Helo) due to "complications". I was thrilled about all this AT THE TIME! Now I am furious because He was in the Hospital in Grand Junction for OVER a WEEK before They figured out His NECK was broken! Flight for Life doesn't mean SHIT if the Hospital doesn't DO Their JOB! When I visited Him very shortly after He was admitted, I found Him in a room alone, No one checking on Him BUT He had a call button! Problem with that was He COULD NOT EVEN PICK IT UP! When I walked into the room a look of Panic was on His face. He was CHOKING on His own saliva. I called the Nurse in! I WATCHED the Nurse straddle His body, and do stomach compressions to dislodge the "blockage". His whole Body was rocking in that bed! JUST the thing He NEEDED with a BROKEN NECK they had YET to discover! My Father SUFFERED for over 18 months as an Incomplete Quadrapelegic before DYING in May of 2006. Oh, and an aside, Just after He was operated on for His neck, A "Doctor" tried to tell Me there was no hope for recovery: I never understood about that until much later, when I SAW the Butcher job they did on His Neck!
Posted by madmax427 at 03/31/2009 @ 2:54pm
"You failed to mention that Quebec has no emergency lifeflight helicopters like we do in the US. Ms. Richardson had to be transported by ambulance for over an hour, had a helicopter been available, the trip would have taken around 10 minutes, giving her precious time. She did not have to die."
That isn't true. Quebec doesn't have a public helicopter ambulance service like Ontario, but is has a private one.
http://www.airmedic.net/
That said, Quebec does have public fixed wing air ambulance services. I agree that privately funded helicopter ambulance services are inferior to public ones. Oh wait... that wasn't your point was it?
Posted by svejk at 03/31/2009 @ 2:56pm
"You failed to mention that Quebec has no emergency lifeflight helicopters like we do in the US. Ms. Richardson had to be transported by ambulance for over an hour, had a helicopter been available, the trip would have taken around 10 minutes, giving her precious time. She did not have to die."
That isn't true. Quebec doesn't have a public helicopter ambulance service like Ontario, but is has a private one.
http://www.airmedic.net/
That said, Quebec does have public fixed wing air ambulance services. I agree that privately funded helicopter ambulance services are inferior to public ones. Oh wait... that wasn't your point was it?
Posted by svejk at 03/31/2009 @ 2:57pm
National Health Care is slow and rationed. I personally saw that doctors in Sweden were seeing patients in the in their basement home offices outside the system for two reasons , number one to make a decent living and number two many of these people would have waited months to be seen. A lot of people in this country are with out health care because they are young and healthy and choose not to buy insurance. Many others who have been included in these numbers are here illegally. For instance 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles county are illegal aliens and are paid for by Medi-cal. This is taxpayer money. Premiums are too high so we need to have some government assistance but cannot go all the way to socialization. There is no way back.
Posted by Katie10 at 03/31/2009 @ 3:05pm
I saw a broadcast by a Canadian television station that made the point that there is no medivac helicopter service from western Quebec. They do have this service from Nova Scotia.
Apparently Natasha Richardson was brain-dead by the time she reached Montreal.
Their strong implication was that medivacing her directly from the resort to Montreal may well have gotten her there in time for a neurorsurgeon to relieve the pressure on her brain.
They also strongly implied that a fairly isolated ski area should have medivac capacity, as does the fairly isolated province of Nova Scotia.
The issue did not seem to be the availability of a CAT scan machine at St. Laurent.
So if one wants to use this sad event to compare the USA health system and the Canadiain one, the relevant question seems to be whether all isolated areas of the USA h ave medivac capacity. Litchfield
Posted by kscott at 03/31/2009 @ 3:11pm
Stories like the one I posted above are NOT given the recognition they deserve! For every "wonderful outcome" story out there, I wonder how many like My Father's there are!
I started a website: http://whatsyourlifeworth2.info (My second attempt!) to bring My Fathers' story to the Public along with anyone elses' who wanted to contribute in an attempt to FIX these problems but have had very little success. I HAVE experienced a great deal of trouble from "Those" who do NOT want these things aired! things like:
My computer hacked. From February 10 to about March 25: NO access to post on My website courtesy of the NSA. A complaint to the Postal Inspector NEVER answered. It will soon be three years since His death & the V.A. STILL refuses to send Me the last few months of His Medical Records (Perfectly understandable when You consider They MURDERED Him)!
And these are just SOME of the Highlights! I COULD go into why I am on My SECOND Website, DO an in depth explanation of the "trouble" with My site, The Foreclosure on Our Home & so on, but all of that is on the site! The PROBLEM is "Those" that want things to STAY the same have MONEY to have "Articles" written to SCARE People into doing NOTHING, AGAIN! What I cannot understand is HOW many TIMES Must We be shown "Our" Government & the Military Industrial Complex & Big Business are SCREWING Us over so THEY can have Their Cake & eat it Too, While We, "The People" PAY for it, OVER & OVER & OVER AGAIN!
Posted by madmax427 at 03/31/2009 @ 3:14pm
ACook, in the third comment, worries that socialized medicine would mean fewer helicopters? Sheesh, what blinders.
My mountain rescue unit in Oregon is gearing up for longer, more difficult missions (and possibly worse patient outcomes) this climbing season on Mt. Hood because the local military rescue helicopter unit we're used to working with, which has both the right aircraft and tremendous experience at high-altitude evacs, has been deployed (again) to the Middle East. Yes, their job is to do air evac in war zones. But they've honed their skills working with us, stateside, and saved many lives in the process -- and if they only had to deploy for NECESSARY wars, even more American civilian lives would be saved.
More broadly, of course, the reality is that socialized medicine would save 100 lives by simply providing solid primary care to people who lack it now, for every 1 life that depends on a helicopter, an obscure specialist, etc. ACook and his/her fellow-thinkers probably want to stop wasting money on smoking-cessation programs and spend it on chemotherapy research instead.
Posted by MSBellowsJr at 03/31/2009 @ 3:27pm
Moral: Ski only in the US--which has the best of care --unless, of course you are Sonny (of Sonny and Cher) who died on the US slopes.
Google "people who died skiing in US" and you wind up with almost 3 million hits.! (Canada gets only 237,000 hits)
Smart bet: don't ski! or wear a very good helmet.
Posted by hkaplan at 03/31/2009 @ 4:45pm
I'm a radical liberal who distrusts government. But then again I recognize that our health care system is big government run for the profit of care providers. We have a licensing system that limits free market competition and drives up costs. We are heavy on the profitable high tech treatments available in later stages but light on the primary care availability of affordable treatment at the earliest stages of health problems - when the costs can be contained. While it is true that Canada may be well behind us in treating disease and injury in the latter stages their primary care does limit the number of such latter stage incidences. Their performance based on mortality and morbidity of populations is far more cost effective.
Posted by rimchamp77 at 03/31/2009 @ 4:49pm
I'm too lazy to read any of the comments, but as a healthcare consumer, I can tell you we already have some sort of worst of both worlds care. Most everything is expensive even if you have healthcare. The insurance companies second guess the doctors. There is no Marcus Welby or Rex Morgan. There are hospital owned practices of 50 or so doctors working for wages. They have a workload so that even when you get in to your 6 months previously appointment they are too busy. Ask your Doctor sometime: " My son/daughter is an A student in High School. Would you recommend medicine as a career?" Most will answer "no".
Posted by Qroger at 03/31/2009 @ 5:01pm
The N.Y. Post article was a ridiculous attempt to scare American's on single payer health care, based on an isolated incident where all of the facts have not even been disclosed yet. This is "yellow " journalism at its worst. And who is to say that had we had a similar health care plan to Canada's that we would also not have the air transport facilities. As countless other health care professionals have pointed out, we can take the best practices of countries around the world. We are not locked into a particular countries plan. Let Natasha Richardson rest in peace. She deserved better than this from the Murdoch press jackals.
Posted by Bobzmcishl at 03/31/2009 @ 5:45pm
Are we all forgetting that Natasha Richardson herself did not realize how badly she was hurt after she fell and therefore she refused medical treatment! It was not until she began experiencing a pounding headache an hour or two after the ski patrol officers' took her back to her hotal that she relented and asked to be "driven" to the hospital. So Canada's healthcare system is NOT at fault here at all! It was just a tragic freak accident. Another fact to consider is that her injury was "internal" therefore no one, including Natasha herself, truly knew how badly she was injured because there were no "visible signs" of an injury. Remember, she was checked out by the ski patrol after she fell and they saw no signs of any serious injuries... So again, no one realized how serious her brain injury was -- not even Natasha herself realized! -- because there were no visible signs whatsoever. Once again, that is NOT Canada's healthcare system at fault.
Posted by rckayla at 03/31/2009 @ 5:49pm
madmax427, I am sooo sorry about the loss of your father three years ago... my condolences go out to you and your family. I lost my father a year before you lost your's (my dad passed away in 2005) and he was at an incompetent hospital in Brooklyn, NY in the USA. Supposedly New York's hospitals are the best but definitely not this particular hospital in Brooklyn! My dad suffered for over a month not knowing if the doctors were going to be able to save him or not, or whether or not he was getting out so that he could just get better at home. Getting better at home never happened...my father died in that awful hospital while the doctors kept lying to him and us. To give those doctors some credit, they did try everything to save his life; their only problem was that they were NOT honest with my father or us about his condition. Turns out he had asbestos lung cancer, which was not discovered until it was way too late to save my dad.
Posted by rckayla at 03/31/2009 @ 6:18pm
It was not Canada's healthcare system, it was not the lack of a CT scanner (even thought they did have one), and it was not the lack of a Life Flight helicopter.
Sadly, it was Natasha's own fault that she passed away. She should have gone to the hospital immediately instead of waiting as long as she did. That is what killed her plain and simple.
When I read that piece in the New York Post I said to myself what a prick the author is. To be using this tragic incident for political gain is disgusting but not surprising coming from Neo Republicans.
Posted by Tachyon at 03/31/2009 @ 6:57pm
No healthcare system anywhere can save a life if the individual declines medical treatment. Almost 3 hours AFTER the injury, this individual was transported to the first hospital, after she became disoriented. While her first symptom of headache was dismissed by the individual, precious time was wasted. Even a helicopter to the tertiary care facility would not have saved her life at 3 to 4 hours post injury. If she had been seen within the first hour, she could have been transported to the tertiary care facility and perhaps her life would have been saved.
Rather than exploit this tragedy for one agenda or another, we might all take a lesson from this, as we might have made the same tragic mistaken decision.
Posted by nana4g at 03/31/2009 @ 8:57pm
Personally I am sick to death of the 'anti-socialist' programed knotheads. Anything that sounds remotely socialist and they immediately go mental spouting unfounded popular lies about socialist programs. When the truth is the opposite. The best programs in the world are all socialist programs. They are the most efficient and help the most. It's the neoliberal/free market/capitalist systems that are poisoning and killing us off.
Posted by annakis at 04/01/2009 @ 05:53am
What's in a word: police and fire services are by definition social services, as is education, and, the biggest of the bunch, the military.
What about "provide for the common good"; that passage seems to get short shrift by most self-described patriots. That's what nationhood means.
"Socialized services" does not mean we suddenly will all start driving government-issued bicycles and drab gray uniforms, it just means instead of giving millions of taxpayer dollars in bonuses to incompetents who have driven their companies in the ground, we'll spend a little more on a greater social safety net. Seems pretty humane to me.
If you really wanted to know if social programs work, google yourself statistics on quality of life, life expectancy, infant mortality rates, poverty rates, violence rates and the like on some of the most "socialized" nations in the word: Norway, Sweden, Canada, to name a few, and see where they rate in (especially in relation to our country). Free market socialist democracies exist; they work, and the rich can still be rich, but veterans don't have to beg on the street for food and people don't eat out of garbage cans to support them.
I don't expect to convert anyone, nor, for that matter, do I even anticipate that many people will go much beyond the first sentence, but at least writing helps me drown out the shrill voices
Health and happiness to all.
Posted by roytoric at 04/01/2009 @ 11:06am
Thank You rckayla, for Your comment. It is much appreciated & I too am sorry for Your loss. It is so hard to make people understand that not only did We lose someone close to Us But We (I) have the desire to prevent Others from experiencing the pain & suffering I had to endure when We CAN change these things, but only IF We actually DO something TOGETHER to STOP what We CAN stop!
I posted a couple of emails on My website EVERYONE needs to read (& THINK about) & those emails do pertain to this article, at least in a general sense. Everyone is welcome to read them @ http://www.whatsyourlifeworth2.info
Posted by madmax427 at 04/01/2009 @ 4:47pm