Palestinian Revolution?

On Friday I went to the anti-separation wall demo in Ni'lin in the West Bank, the same village where International Solidarity Movement activist Tristan Anderson was critically wounded last week. Several hundred villagers were accompanied by Jewish Israeli activists (most with Anarchists Against the Wall ) and ISMers, plus a few journalists like me. The IDF started firing tear gas at us even before we got close to the wall. The shebab (Palestinian youth) responded with stones, and the game was on: back and forth street battles, with the soldiers alternating between tear gas, rubber-coated steel bullets and occasional live ammunition, often fired by snipers, and the shebab hurling their stones by slingshot against the Israeli Goliath.

The IDF often fires tear gas now with a high-velocity rifle that can be lethal, especially when they fire it straight at you rather than pointed up in the air. Pointed straight, it comes at you like a bullet. That's what seriously wounded Anderson. I saw these projectiles coming very near us, and saw how dangerous they could be. Not to mention the live ammo they occasionally fired--but they fired live rounds only at the shebab, never at the Jews or internationals. After a few hours, the clashes died down. Six were injured, one critically. Me, I just coughed and teared up from the gas on occasion. (In simultaneous demos in the nearby village of Bi'lin, three were injured, including two Americans.)

I mistakenly thought the army would be less aggressive on Friday, and not only because of the negative publicity surrounding the shooting of Anderson (the killing of Palestinians is of course routinely ignored in Western media; in Ni'lin alone, four villagers have been killed in the past eight months, with hundreds injured). The day before Friday's march, revelations from Israeli veterans about war crimes they'd committed in the recent Gaza campaign made world headlines .

As villagers prepared yesterday's march, Jonathan Pollock, a veteran activist with AATW, showed me where Anderson was standing when he was shot and where the IDF soldier was standing who shot him, just up the hill. The soldier had fired a high-velocity tear-gas canister at close range--what looked to me like about fifty or sixty meters--directly at Anderson, hitting him in the head. It was hard to imagine the intention could have been anything other than to seriously maim or kill.

The courage and steadfast resistance of the people of Ni'lin, and many other West Bank villages just like it that are fighting the wall's illegal annexation of their land, is truly remarkable. Every week, for years now, West Bank Palestinians have stood up against the world's fourth-most-powerful military machine, which shows no compunction about shooting unarmed demonstrators. This grassroots resistance--organized by the villagers themselves, not Fatah or Hamas--has gotten little publicity from the world media , which seem to prefer stories about Hamas rockets and the image of Palestinians as terrorists.

The village protests against the wall are inspiring, and not just because they've continued for so long, against such daunting odds. The villagers recognize the power and revolutionary potential of mass, unarmed resistance, and the shebab with their slingshots hearken back to the first intifada of the late 1980s and the "children of the stones," when hundreds of thousands of men, women and children were directly involved in the struggle against the occupation. The Israeli government knows how difficult it is to suppress that kind of mass resistance, which is why it has used such brutality and provocation against the villagers. The army wants to shut this uprising down before it spreads, and would like nothing more than for the villagers to start using guns, as the IDF is certain to win a purely military confrontation. The other inspiration of this struggle is the courage and solidarity of the Israeli and ISM activists. They risk their lives day after day, and the villagers appreciate it. I saw signs in Ni'lin praising Tristan Anderson, who, just like Rachel Corrie six years ago, was willing to sacrifice his life for Palestinian justice.

Comments (58)

1. It makes sense, that this would cause more concern, if not fear, than (pretty much) "bomb on demand" Hamas.

   And God bless the Israeli activists for making it hard(er) for those who would simplistically, collectivize this struggle as the "Jews," versus the Palestinians ...

   While ignoring the larger, geopolitical-regional ... issues.

   Posted by V at 03/21/2009 @ 9:03pm

2. stupid humans:

   http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072466.html

   Posted by frosty zoom at 03/21/2009 @ 10:13pm

3. Which edition?

   Posted by Happy at 03/21/2009 @ 10:17pm

4. Followed the "world headlines" link, and a couple of links from there. Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

   Now I have an idea of why the Third Amendment of the U.S. Constitution has to do with the quartering of troops.

   Posted by cka2nd at 03/21/2009 @ 11:19pm

5. Can't help but note the contradiction in Carey's hope for a mass, people-based Palestinian revolution of the sort already underway against the wall, for several years now: the First Intifada was a spontaneous, overwhelmingly non-violent, mass protest against the Israeli occupation and it was quashed, as was the second Intifada, and as has been every Palestinian effort to redress the Israeli oppression, whether violent or non-violent.

   The brutality of the illegal occupation can't be fixed by Palestinians in Palestine, because the real enemy is here in the US, not over there in Palestine.

   Change the fundamental support of the US for Israel, and the situation in Palestine will change over night. The enemy is here in the US. Same with back in the 1980s in Nicaragua and El Salvador, same with global warming, same with a lot of problems around the world.

   The US is the source of the disease; Israel just another symptom.

   Posted by kcarey at 03/22/2009 @ 12:07am

6. Posted by kcarey at 03/22/2009 @ 12:07am

   Glad to give you a ride to the airport.

   Posted by freiheit1 at 03/22/2009 @ 12:13am

7. Posted by freiheit1 at 03/22/2009 @ 12:13am : I'll chip in.

   There is nothing new here...Hamas insists on the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews - who would have "thunk" it. It is questionable if the Palestinians are even capable of running a civilized state for they have shown no inclination to do so. Israel does what it must to remain a free people and state against the forces of darkness. The "donation" of $900M to Hamas is truly pouring money down a rat hole because it will all go for ammunition, guns and rockets - any dollars that might accidentally go for food and medician will be for the gunmen or sold at high prices. It is just another stupid gesture by a bunch of amatures in the White House similar to the brain dead gesture to Iran last week with that idiotic videotape. Hamas like Hezbolla, who want only war, are the willing dupes of Iran who wants the same.

   Posted by pyeatte at 03/22/2009 @ 12:53am

8. The Wall...what could possibly be the purpose? Boy that's a hard one isn't it? I seem to remember way back in the 90s old Mr Arafat met Mr Bagen at the White House with President Clinton to work out a comprehensive peace accord. Israel gave everything but the kitchen sink (and their lives) as part of a deal - much better than anything the Palestinians will ever get. I am sure Arafat probably would have accepted, all things beng equal, but he rejected it much to the horror of President Clinton. The unspoken reason was, if he had accepted it, Arafat would have been killed upon his return to the Middle East. The result was the intifada which resulted in daily suicide bombings in Israel, killing thousands over a period of time. The result of this was the Wall, which saved thousands. Yes, the Wall was a good thing and still is.

   Posted by pyeatte at 03/22/2009 @ 01:29am

9. Amazing how the leftist so enjoy inciting riot and civil commotion and take such joy at the opportunity to antagonize Israel or disdain their existence. I wonder if they help hamas aim rockets also and fill suicide vest effectually to kill the most israelis as possible to aid the so-called palestinians?

   Posted by comancheamerican at 03/22/2009 @ 02:19am

10. Posted by pyeatte at 03/22/2009 @ 01:29am

    The width, depth and breadth of information regarding the the Sharon-Israeli based creation, funding and subsequent training of Hamas, makes it easy for someone, so interested (unlike you, obviously ...), to resolve this issue into a coherent and functional versus dysfunctional and incoherent, Gestalt.

    Freakish ...

    Posted by V at 03/22/2009 @ 10:10am

11. The Israeli "Defense" Forces are a bunch of murdering pigs and fanatics bent on ethnic cleansing, at last by their own accounts:

    " ... Dead Palestinian babies and bombed mosques - IDF fashion 2009

    By Uri Blau

    The office at the Adiv fabric-printing shop in south Tel Aviv handles a constant stream of customers, many of them soldiers in uniform, who come to order custom clothing featuring their unit's insignia, usually accompanied by a slogan and drawing of their choosing. Elsewhere on the premises, the sketches are turned into plates used for imprinting the ordered items, mainly T-shirts and baseball caps, but also hoodies, fleece jackets and pants. A young Arab man from Jaffa supervises the workers who imprint the words and pictures, and afterward hands over the finished product ..."

    " ... Dead babies, mothers weeping on their children's graves, a gun aimed at a child and bombed-out mosques - these are a few examples of the images Israel Defense Forces soldiers design these days to print on shirts they order to mark the end of training, or of field duty. The slogans accompanying the drawings are not exactly anemic either: A T-shirt for infantry snipers bears the inscription "Better use Durex," next to a picture of a dead Palestinian baby, with his weeping mother and a teddy bear beside him. A sharpshooter's T-shirt from the Givati Brigade's Shaked battalion shows a pregnant Palestinian woman with a bull's-eye superimposed on her belly, with the slogan, in English, "1 shot, 2 kills." A "graduation" shirt for those who have completed another snipers course depicts a Palestinian baby, who grows into a combative boy and then an armed adult, with the inscription, "No matter how it begins, we'll put an end to it." ..."

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/22/2009 @ 10:17am

12. " ... There are also plenty of shirts with blatant sexual messages. For example, the Lavi battalion produced a shirt featuring a drawing of a soldier next to a young woman with bruises, and the slogan, "Bet you got raped!" ..."

    " ... Before I drew the shirt I had some misgivings, because I wanted it to be like King Kong, but not too monstrous. The one holding the mosque - I wanted him to have a more normal-looking face, so it wouldn't look like an anti-Semitic cartoon. Some of the people who saw it told me, 'Is that what you've got to show for the IDF? That it destroys homes?' I can understand people who look at this from outside and see it that way, but I was in Gaza and they kept emphasizing that the object of the operation was to wreak destruction on the infrastructure, so that the price the Palestinians and the leadership pay will make them realize that it isn't worth it for them to go on shooting. So that's the idea of 'we're coming to destroy' in the drawing." ..."

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072466.html

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/22/2009 @ 10:19am

13. Savage fanatics:

    "... Soldier says rabbis pushed "religious war" in Gaza 20 Mar 2009 13:59:24 GMT Source: Reuters JERUSALEM, March 20 (Reuters) - Rabbis in the Israeli army told battlefield troops in January's Gaza offensive that they were fighting a "religious war" against gentiles, according to one army commander's account published on Friday.

    "Their message was very clear: we are the Jewish people, we came to this land by a miracle, God brought us back to this land and now we need to fight to expel the gentiles who are interfering with our conquest of this holy land," he said ..."

    http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LK403734. htm

    " ... A squad commander from Ram's Givat Brigade, named as Aviv, recounted his misgivings about orders to break down doors with armoured vehicles and shoot anyone inside, floor by floor. In the event, the order was amended to include "operating megaphones" so advancing troops could tell people they had five minutes to get out or be killed.

    Aviv said "there was a very annoying moment" when he briefed his men and one challenged that order, saying: "Yeah? Anyone who is in there is a terrorist, that's a known fact..."

    "And then his buddies join in: 'We need to murder any person who's in there, yeah, any person who's in Gaza is a terrorist' and all the other things that they stuff our heads with, in the media," Aviv was quoted as saying ..."

    Yep, floor by floor, just like in the Warsaw Ghetto.

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/22/2009 @ 10:23am

14. " ... In one of the testimonies shedding harsh new light on what the soldiers say were the permissive rules of engagement for Operation Cast Lead, one soldier describes how an officer ordered the shooting of an elderly woman 100 metres from a house commandeered by troops.

    Another soldier, describing how a mother and her children were shot dead by a sniper after they turned the wrong way out of a house, says the "atmosphere" among troops was that the lives of Palestinians were "very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers".

    A squad leader said: "At the beginning the directive was to enter a house with an armoured vehicle, to break the door down, to start shooting inside and – I call it murder – to shoot at everyone we identify. In the beginning I asked myself how could this make sense? Higher-ups said it is permissible because everyone left in the city [Gaza City] is culpable because they didn't run away." ..."

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle- east/israels-dirty-secrets-in-gaza-1649527.html

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/22/2009 @ 10:24am

15. The point of this is that attempting to feign shock at the evil of Israel and it army - the fanaticism, the dishonesty, the savagery, the murders, the ethnic cleansing - is ridiculous. Israel is a nation of savages, that receives a huge military "aid" program from the US, and complete international cover for what it does from the US. The point is that it is long past time in the US for a decades-overdue honest discussion about the way Israel conducts itself. Their "defense" forces are a bunch of brutes with our advanced weaponry who slaughter and kill children on purpose. They bomb communities flat on purpose. The regimes that have governed Israel have directed this activity, along with the slow cleansing of the West Bank and expropriation of lands for what Ethan Bronner, one of the worst Israeli propagandists employed by the New York Times, today referred to as "the settler movement". It's time for the world and the US too to be honest about Israel. Palestinian revolution? One can only hope, but what is really needed is a revolution in western perception about the reality of Israel. Then the Palestinians might have some hope. Or at least a chance at being killed off by Israel slower, and having their lands taken away from them by Israel at a slower rate.

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/22/2009 @ 10:30am

16. Remember the Warsaw Ghetto?

    " ... Squad leader Aviv

    "At the beginning the directive was to enter a house with an armoured vehicle, to break the door down, to start shooting inside and to ascend floor by floor and – I call it murder – to go from floor to floor and to shoot at everyone we identify. In the beginning I asked myself how could this make sense? Higher-ups said it is permissible because everyone left in the city [Gaza City] is culpable because they didn't run away. This frightened me a bit. I tried to influence it as much as possible, despite my low rank, to change it. In the end the directive was to go into a house, switch on loudspeakers and tell them 'you have five minutes to run away and whoever doesn't will be killed'."

    Soldier Ram

    "There was an order to free the [confined] families. The platoon commander set free the family and told them to turn right. A mother and two children didn't understand and turned left. [Officers] had forgotten to tell the sniper on the roof that they were being set free and that everything was okay and he should hold fire. You can say that he acted as he was supposed to, in accordance with the orders. The sniper saw a woman and children approaching him, past lines that no one was to be allowed to cross. He fired directly at them. I don't know if he fired at their legs but in the end he killed them." ..."

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle- east/israels-dirty-secrets-in-gaza-1649527.html

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/22/2009 @ 10:37am

17. If the Palestinians truly wanted peace they would stop the killing of Jews, stop the rocket attacks, stop the demand for the liquidation of Israel. If that were to happen, Israel would be glad to live in peace, raise families, build their society and certainy would not attack anyone. But no, that will not happen because of the stated fundamental jihad goal of killing all Jews on the planet, followed by Christians followed by all that are not Islamic. And of course those on the left are useful idiots and side with Islam. Go figure.

    Posted by pyeatte at 03/22/2009 @ 12:56pm

18. "Those who know nothing about Islam pretent that Islam counsels against war. Those (who say this) are witless." -Ayatollah Khomeini-1942

    Posted by pyeatte at 03/22/2009 @ 12:59pm

19. Syfriendly,

    As usual, you conveniently left this part of the article out.

    "The IDF Spokesman's Office comments on the phenomenon: "Military regulations do not apply to civilian clothing, including shirts produced at the end of basic training and various courses. The designs are printed at the soldiers' private initiative, and on civilian shirts. The examples raised by Haaretz are not in keeping with the values of the IDF spirit, not representative of IDF life, and are in poor taste. Humor of this kind deserves every condemnation and excoriation. The IDF intends to take action for the immediate eradication of this phenomenon. To this end, it is emphasizing to commanding officers that it is appropriate, among other things, to take discretionary and disciplinary measures against those involved in acts of this sort."

    Shlomo Tzipori, a lieutenant colonel in the reserves and a lawyer specializing in martial law, said the army does bring soldiers up on charges for offenses that occur outside the base and during their free time. According to Tzipori, slogans that constitute an "insult to the army or to those in uniform" are grounds for court-martial, on charges of "shameful conduct" or "disciplinary infraction," which are general clauses in judicial martial law."

    And what you leave out is what has produced these attitudes.

    It is 62 years of nonstop Arab attacks on the Jews from the day they were declared a nation.

    It is 62 years of Arab vows to destroy the Nation of Israel and to push the Jews into the sea.

    Maybe if the Arabs ever decide to allow the Israelis to live in peace they mighty find some for themselves. But that isn't likely either; they seem to have no hesitation to kill one another because they belong to the wrong sect.

    Posted by antisocialist at 03/22/2009 @ 1:43pm

20. "But that isn't likely either; they seem to have no hesitation to kill one another because they belong to the wrong sect."----Posted by antisocialist at 03/22/2009 @ 1:43pm

    That's Islamophobe Larry, now watch as he drinks his magic potion and becomes NEOCON Larry....

    Oh, Larry...you think Bush was right about invading Iraq and that it would bring peace and democracy to that country, right? Despite being "full of Arabs"...right?

    Posted by Mask at 03/23/2009 @ 07:41am

21. Yes, it must be terrible for Roane Carey, other westerners at play at being revolutionaries, and Palestinian extremists that israel has erected a wall that has prevented virtually any suicide bombings from taking place and killing israelis since the wall went up. The wall must come down so that Israeli women, children and the elderly can be blown up in restaurants, on buses, at malls and streets. Condemn it as apartheid, call it fascistic, call it anything and everything except for what it is -- a security wall necessitated by terrorist murders.

    Posted by gren at 03/23/2009 @ 10:01am

22. Anyone who is intellectually honest will admit that bad actions on both sides of this conflict have resulted in the current impass. True if the palestinians were completely nonviolent they would have a much greater chance of achieving peace. Conversely if Isreal didn't continue to push settlements into the West bank and didn't keep occupied territory in an economic stranglehold they would have a much greater chance of peace.

    Both sides are stirring up the hornets nest and anyone who can't recognize this fact lacks the discernment to have a useful discussion about this problem.

    People who can't see the shades of grey here are not going to contribute to any solution. There is no point in discussing the palestian/isreali conflict with anyone who insists on seeing the situation in black and white terms. For those of us who would truly like to see a solution, any useful discussion need to ignore those who want to polarize and leave them to stew in their own self reinforcing beliefs. They are not interested in facts that contradict their beliefs, and they aren't interested in any solution but a Naziesque "final" solution.

    Posted by Guiles at 03/23/2009 @ 11:22am

23. Posted by Guiles at 03/23/2009 @ 11:22am

    Sorry, Guiles but you are now BOTH a....

    "fascist right-wing Zionist enabler of Nazi Israel"

    and

    a "naive left-wing stooge of the terrorists who want to see Israel completely destroyed"!

    Posted by Mask at 03/23/2009 @ 12:20pm

24. Which is why it is useless to have a conversation with people who hold (maybe clench is a better word) those views. Makes as much sense as arguing with a wall.

    Posted by Guiles at 03/23/2009 @ 12:41pm

25. Thanks, Nation and author. It seems the arrogance of Israel grows in direct proportion to the immorality of it's actions and ferocity of it's lies. But truth always makes itself known, eventually. The only question is whether there will be any survivors left to hear it.

    Posted by DejaVu at 03/23/2009 @ 12:41pm

26. When the Netanyahu government takes power, you can forget any peace agreement. The West Bank will be another Gaza, and more Israelis will be exposed to rockets. For the Palestinians, it will be a fight for survival in their own land.

    Posted by P. J. Casey at 03/23/2009 @ 12:44pm

27. The grass roots Palestinian movements against the wall and against Israeli expropriations in Jerusalem and against ongoing settler expansions in the occupied territories have been ongoing for a long time and have been little covered by the western media including progressive publications. To make headlines it has to come from Israeli veterans which has happened before, although little follow through occurs.

    It would be exceptionally important if there was greater coverage of the Palestinian non violent resistance movement and those who lead it including Mustafa Barghouthi and the Palestinian National Initiative to provide a broader political and historical understanding of Palestinian efforts to achieve their own national aspirations.

    Charlie M

    Posted by cmsandia at 03/23/2009 @ 12:59pm

28. "It was hard to imagine the intention could have been anything other than to seriously maim or kill. "

    I don't know. I can easily imagine that the officer just aimed at the wrong place. To project intention on someone else with no actual knowledge of what happened is flat out bad journalism.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/23/2009 @ 1:01pm

29. People who can't see the shades of grey here are not going to contribute to any solution. There is no point in discussing the palestian/isreali conflict with anyone who insists on seeing the situation in black and white terms. For those of us who would truly like to see a solution, any useful discussion need to ignore those who want to polarize and leave them to stew in their own self reinforcing beliefs. They are not interested in facts that contradict their beliefs, and they aren't interested in any solution but a Naziesque "final" solution.

    Posted by Guiles at 03/23/2009 @ 11:22am |

    Sounds like you, like me, see that this is not a matter of pointing fingers. If we ever want to find a solution to this problem it is going to take both sides giving things up and coming to a center. The most unproductive people are the people who have taken a side and started pointing fingers.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/23/2009 @ 1:04pm

30. I have to laugh at how the spinners keep repeating the same falsehood that Hamas wants Israel annihilated, and that it's the rockets that provoke the Israeli "defence", and that the Wall is good. What crap and what lies! Since when did Apartheid accomplish anything? The f* Israelis STOLE land away from the Palestinians. Period. Of course they should fight back, what do you expect? Jimmy Carter was in Gaza and he saw how the Israelis broke their promise to supply food to the Gazans which broke the ceasefire. Syfriendly speaks the truth over and over.The enemy is NOT Israel. It is American Jewry.They, safe from afar, like cowardly scum, provoke the Nazi behaviour in Israel, which is blinded by the fact that they can behave as bestial and savage as they like because America will always defend it. Well no more. Obama is clamping down, certainly with Iran. Roger Cohen today in the NYT AT LAST speaks out against this venom.It is American neocon Jewry which instigated the Iraq war, and we Americans are dying by the thousands for the Israeli murderers. We have caused an economic meltdown with two unnecessary wars to help Israel.We have to stop this madness. Israel is NOT our ally.It is USING America. It has murdered Americans over and over: USS Liberty, in Iraq the Mossad was shooting Americans to foment the civil war. As a Jew myself, we have to show American Jewry how wrong they are, and that they are destroying themselves in the process. In one fell swoop, Obama could stop this nightmare overnight by threatening to stop financial aid to Israel UNLESS the settlers evacuate immediately. Overnight.

    Posted by mystic7 at 03/23/2009 @ 1:08pm

31. The grass roots Palestinian movements against the wall and against Israeli expropriations in Jerusalem and against ongoing settler expansions in the occupied territories have been ongoing for a long time and have been little covered by the western media including progressive publications. To make headlines it has to come from Israeli veterans which has happened before, although little follow through occurs.

    It would be exceptionally important if there was greater coverage of the Palestinian non violent resistance movement and those who lead it including Mustafa Barghouthi and the Palestinian National Initiative to provide a broader political and historical understanding of Palestinian efforts to achieve their own national aspirations.

    It would help break the endless and dead end arguments over Palestinian violence and Israeli retailation and occupation and Israeli right to exist which gets no one anywhere.

    There are two equal rights of national sovereignty at work and each should be understood on its own terms, and not who recognizes whom and terrorism

    Charlie M

    Posted by cmsandia at 03/23/2009 @ 1:13pm

32. The grass roots Palestinian movements against the wall and against Israeli expropriations in Jerusalem and against ongoing settler expansions in the occupied territories have been ongoing for a long time and have been little covered by the western media including progressive publications. To make headlines it has to come from Israeli veterans which has happened before, although little follow through occurs.

    It would be exceptionally important if there was greater coverage of the Palestinian non violent resistance movement and those who lead it including Mustafa Barghouthi and the Palestinian National Initiative to provide a broader political and historical understanding of Palestinian efforts to achieve their own national aspirations.

    It would help break the endless and dead end arguments over Palestinian violence and Israeli retailation and occupation and Israeli right to exist which gets no one anywhere.

    There are two equal rights of national sovereignty at work and each should be understood on its own terms, and not who recognizes whom and terrorism

    Charlie M

    Posted by cmsandia at 03/23/2009 @ 1:14pm

33. The american negotiators at camp david have reported that Israel offered the Palestinians 93% of the West Bank, administratice sovereignty of the Temple Mount, Gaza, 3% land compensation adjacent to Gaza, and recognition of a Palestinian state. arafat turned down the offer, went home, and made no effort to prevent or quell the second intifada when it began. clinton blamed the failure of Camp david on arafat's refusal to compromise at all.

    The nonsense that israel is stealing Palestinian land and refuses to give up the west bank and make peace is a lie. Israel offered peace and arafat rejected it, becuase he was cowed by the militants of both fatah and Hamas. There are reports that Olmert and Livni made a similar offer to the PA this past year, and Abbas similarly rejected it.

    Now that Netanyahu is taking office, the PA won't see those offers. so while there is indeed blame to go around, let's stop the anti-Israeli lies. Until the Palestinians give up their mythic right to return, and accept that the Old City will not be divided (as opposed to the rest of East Jerusalem, the future palestinian state will remain subject to military supervision and control. I wish all this was otherwise.

    Posted by gren at 03/23/2009 @ 1:38pm

34. Posted by mystic7 at 03/23/2009 @ 1:08pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    I do not believe at all that Mossad has shot any Americans in Iraq. If you have evidence of that, please share it, many journalists would be quite intrigued. I think that Mossad is mostly a bunch of bloody pigs, but I don't think Israel fires a shot at any Americans besides ISM activists in the occupied territories, who are visibly unprotected by the US government.

    I also do not myself believe that "the enemy" is American Jews as a group - I think that there are a lot of questions to be asked about the collective political power of the wealthiest of American Jews, as they tend to be the moneybags behind organizations like AIPAC, but I don't believe that all or even most American Jews are to be grouped with the Elie Wiesels, Abraham Foxmans, etc.

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/23/2009 @ 1:49pm

35. Posted by gren at 03/23/2009 @ 1:38pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    The idiotic plan (the Bantustan plan) you describe would have been rejected by any people on Earth. It gave the Palestinians little more than a bunch of disjoint reservations separated by Israeli-only roads.

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/23/2009 @ 1:51pm

36. "The nonsense that israel is stealing Palestinian land and refuses to give up the west bank and make peace is a lie. "

    Posted by gren at 03/23/2009 @ 1:38pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Factually, Israel has expanded its "settlements" in the West Bank over the last several years quite aggressively and has built its wall of shame to include land it has absolutely no legal right to. Their next foreign minister is going to be the overtly racist proponent of West Bank ethnic cleansing Avigdor Lieberman and the Netanyahu regime in the past few days has included the ultra-fanatical Shas party - a completely religious fanatical and racist faction - into its governing coalition. Finally, Netanyahu himself is an overt opponent of the two-state plan who helped to scuttle the plan during his last tenure as head of state. The immoral, illegal expropriation of lands in the West Bank will probably increase, and Israel will not attempt to make any peace, but will instead attempt to worsen the conditions Palestinians face with the intent of destroying them as a people and forcing them to accept total subjugation and/or cleansing.

    I don't know what planet you get your information from, but the Israel here on Earth is absolutely doing the exact things you claim are lies.

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/23/2009 @ 1:55pm

37. Posted by mystic7 at 03/23/2009 @ 1:08pm

    Please don't post again until you have taken your medications. And please don't drive because in your mental state, you are a danger to other drivers and pedestrians.

    If you are not under a doctors care, please proceed by taxi to the nearest mental health unit. Society will be grateful if you take the necessary steps to remove yourself as a danger to others.

    Posted by antisocialist at 03/23/2009 @ 1:55pm

38. Syfriendly --

    It doesn't appear you are factually informed. Please provide a credible source for the "Bantustan propoganda. Here is a source for my statement; there was nothing Bantustan about Barak's offer:

    http://www.mideastweb.org/lastmaps.htm

    Posted by gren at 03/23/2009 @ 1:56pm

39. " ... Israeli authorities broke up a series of Palestinian cultural events in Jerusalem on Saturday, disrupting a children's march and bursting balloons at a schoolyard celebration in a crackdown that underscored the emotional battle over control of the disputed holy city ...

    Palestinian activists called for Saturday's celebrations to mark the Arab League's designation of Jerusalem as the capital of Arab culture for 2009. The 23-nation group chooses a different city for the honor each year.

    But Israel said the events violated a ban on Palestinian political activity in Jerusalem. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas criticized the crackdown.

    Announcing the ban on Saturday's events, Israel's internal security minister, Avi Dichter, accused Abbas' Palestinian Authority of being behind the activities. Israel does not allow the Palestinian government to have a presence in Jerusalem, saying it undercuts Israel's claim to the city ..."

    Israel never had complete claim to Jerusalem, not even under the 1948 charter. But they send army soldiers to pop childrens balloons and crush peaceful cultural events so that the Palestinian people can never imagine that the legal guarantees that they got under even the colonialist 1948 charter will be recognized. This is the face of Israeli apartheid - soldiers sent to confront schoolchildren peacefully gathered to crush the Palestinian people. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/420198/ palestinian_revolution

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/23/2009 @ 2:01pm

40. Posted by gren at 03/23/2009 @ 1:56pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    You might want to review the maps on the web site link you provided for starters -

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/23/2009 @ 2:06pm

41. This is the face of Israeli apartheid:

    " ... Anti-Arab attacks 'on the rise' in Israel

    Sun Mar 22, 2:02 pm ET

    JERUSALEM (AFP) – Anti-Arab verbal and physical attacks inside Israel have spiked in the wake of elections held earlier this year in which right-wing parties made major gains, a human rights group said on Sunday.

    The Mossawa Centre for the Rights of Arab Citizens in Israel has documented 250 incidents of aggression against Arab Israelis since the start of the year, compared to 166 in all of 2008, the group said in a report.

    "The physical and verbal aggression has increased mainly in cities with mixed Arab-Jewish populations," the report said.

    "The increase in incidents indicating anti-Arab racism is apparently related to the electoral campaign for the February 10 elections in which candidates played the anti-Arab card, almost giving a green light to aggression," Nidal Hotman, an attorney and spokesman for the group, told AFP.

    He was referring mainly to the campaign of Avigdor Lieberman, a tough-talking immigrant from the former Soviet Union who has taken a hard line on Israeli Arabs and been called a "racist" and "fascist" by his critics ..."

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090322/wl_mide ast_afp/mideastconflictisraelarab

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/23/2009 @ 2:09pm

42. syfriendly --

    Now i have to suggest that not only are you not factually informed, but apparently willfully ignorant. The maps refute your position; the text unabiguously distinguishes between Israel's opening offer and israel's final offer, as well as Clinton's proposeal which Israel accepted and arafat walked from.

    Guiles --

    the problem is not only people being committed to a point of view, but people having opinions and spouting propoganda that is contrary to the facts.

    Posted by gren at 03/23/2009 @ 2:16pm

43. BTW, did anyone see buried in an AP report today that Israel was able to prevent a car bomb from going off at a shopping center this weekend, which otherwise would have caused hundreds of deaths. Funny how the mass media didn't report on it. see, there's lots of stories that don't get reported, including those of extremist Palestinan terror murder attempts.

    all the pro-Israelis i know think the NYTimes is anti-Israel. All the pro-Palestinans I know think the NYTimes is in the pocket of the Zionists. Me, I think it has its unavoidable biases with regard to specific aspects of the situation, but on balance tries to present balanced and objective reporting -- though of course not always successfully in every instance.

    Posted by gren at 03/23/2009 @ 2:25pm

44. syfriendly --

    correction. "uninformed" not "informed." Sorry. On multiple levels.

    Posted by gren at 03/23/2009 @ 2:28pm

45. syfriendly --

    correction. "uninformed" not "informed." Sorry. On multiple levels.

    Posted by gren at 03/23/2009 @ 2:28pm

46. BTW --

    Under the UN partition plan, the old city of Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city. Thus the Palestinians also lack any claim to it under the UN partition. While Jordan ocupied the old city until 1967, Jews were not allowed into the old city and jewish sacred sites were desecrated, vandalized and razed. Compare this with Palestinian administration and access to the Temple Mount under Israeli sovereignty.

    Posted by gren at 03/23/2009 @ 2:34pm

47. Here is Israel using an 11-year old boy as a human shield:

    " ... The Israeli Defence force ordered the boy to walk in front of soldiers being fired on in the Gaza neighborhood of Tel al-Hawa and enter buildings before them, said the UN Secretary-General's envoy for protecting children in armed conflict.

    The boy also was told to open the bags of Palestinians -- presumably to protect the soldiers from possible explosives -- before being released at the entrance to a hospital, Radhika Coomaraswamy said.

    She said the Jan. 15 incident, after Israeli tanks had rolled into the neighbourhood and during "intense operations," was a violation of Israeli and international law ..."

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/ RTGAM.20090323.wunisraelreport0323/BNStory/ International/?page=rss&id=RTGAM.20090323. wunisraelreport0323

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/23/2009 @ 7:57pm

48. http://english.aljazeera.com/news/articles/34/ Israel_mulling_limited_Gaza_recapture.html

    It would appear that the latest Israeli regime is already plotting to "re-occupy" Gaza, ie, reinitiate the December war. Apparently the Israeli nation has not had its fill of bloodshed yet, and needs to kill more Palestinians in order to feel powerful and dominant in the region.

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/23/2009 @ 8:03pm

49. The face of Israeli apartheid: Israel seeks to destroy Palestinian marital customs, yet another attempt to destroy the Palestinian identy.

    " ... THE JUDICIAL debate concerns one of the most revolting laws ever enacted in Israel.

    It says that the wife of an Israeli citizen is not allowed to join him in Israel if she is living in the occupied Palestinian territories or in a "hostile" Arab country.

    The Arab citizens of Israel belong to Hamulas (clans) which extend beyond the borders of the state. Arabs generally marry within the Hamula. This is an ancient custom, deeply rooted in their culture, probably originating in the desire to keep the family property together. In the Bible, Isaac married his cousin, Rebecca.

    The "Green Line", which was fixed arbitrarily by the events of the 1948 war, divides families. One village found itself in Israel, the next remained outside the new state, the Hamula lives in both. The Nakba also created a large Palestinian Diaspora.

    A male Arab citizen in Israel who desires to marry a woman of his Hamula will often find her in the West Bank or in a refugee camp in Lebanon or Syria. The woman will generally join her husband and be taken in by his family. In theory, her husband could join her in Ramallah, but the standard of living there is much lower, and all his life – family, work, studies – is centered in Israel. Because of the large difference in the standard of living, a man in the occupied territories who marries a woman in Israel will also usually join her and receive Israeli citizenship, leaving behind his former life .."

    http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery03232009.html

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/23/2009 @ 10:30pm

50. The true face of Israeli apartheid - their supreme "court" declares them at war with the Palestinian people:

    " ... The matter came before the Supreme Court, The petitioners, Jews and Arabs, argued that this measure contradicts our Basic Laws (our substitute for a nonexistent constitution) which guarantee the equality of all citizens. The answer of the Ministry of Justice lawyers let the cat out of the bag. It asserts, for the first time, in unequivocal language, that:

    "The State of Israel is at war with the Palestinian people, people against people, collective against collective." ..."

    http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery03232009.html

    Posted by syfriendly at 03/23/2009 @ 10:33pm

51. Happy there is an interesting article being run right now, about how in Iraq the Sunnis are getting representation in the Iraqi militia which they fear might drive them back to democracy. I guess that's the sign of a good democracy right?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/24/2009 @ 12:06am

52. First, the idea of there needing to be more of a focus on grass-roots non-violent actions like this is well-taken. Fatah has a history of fecklessness and corruption and I suspect that support for Hamas is less a matter of support on the merits and more a matter of anyone-but-Fatah. The possibility of political organization independent of these organizations is an interesting one.

    Second, what is often forgotten about the Israeli wall is that it's specific locations constitute a de facto annexation of territory on the West Bank. There are projections into the area west of the 1949 armistice line that encompass the large settlement blocs in the West Bank that clearly seem to buttress Israeli annexationist ambitions.

    Posted by brunowe at 03/24/2009 @ 02:57am

53. 'JERUSALEM (CNN) -- A march of right-wing Jewish extremists in a northern Israeli town on Tuesday sparked a protest by Arabs that left 16 people injured, police said. The march by Israeli extremists turned into violence on the streets of Umm al-Fahm. Police Spokesman Mickey Rosenthal confirmed clashes in Umm al-Fahm, a predominantly Arab Muslim town, after the 45-minute march, where the Jewish demonstrators carried Israeli flags. ... The Jewish marchers wanted to do what Arabs and Muslims have been allowed to do in Tel Aviv -- stage marches.' -- CNN.com -- 24 March 2009

    'The Selma to Montgomery marches were three marches in 1965 that marked the political and emotional peak of the American civil rights movement...The first march took place on March 7, 1965 -- "Bloody Sunday" -- when 600 civil rights marchers were attacked...Brutal televised images of the attack, which presented people with horrifying images of marchers left bloodied and severely injured, roused support for the U.S. civil rights movement.' -- Wikipedia

    Posted by HonestLiberal at 03/24/2009 @ 08:30am

54. I'll take the silence to my prior posts and failure to identify any contrary factual source, to mean that everyone here acknowledges the facts for which i provided a credible factual and verifiable source: israel offered to withdraw from 93% of the west bank including large areas of east jerusalem, with 3% land swap compensation, and that the Palestinians rejected the peace proposal -- yet still most of you are posting that the lack of peace is israel's fault.

    The pro-Palestinian bleating of prejudicial if not hateful propoganda that ignores the most relevant of facts is why Israel's supporters ignore you completely -- which is a shame because some of you raise legitimate points and Israel's inability to find a peacre partner has resulted in a corrossion and hardening of the hearts and minds of too many Israelis.

    Posted by gren at 03/24/2009 @ 09:20am

55. Every Israel/Palestine thread typically boils down to two things-

    1. a small group of moderates

    2. the posters who say "You can't trust the ________s, they're bloodthirsty murderers. Nothing's going to change until they're crushed!"

    (the blank is which ever side you don't like)

    Posted by Mask at 03/24/2009 @ 11:04am

56. Posted by Mask at 03/24/2009 @ 11:04am

    And it will never change, just as it will never change in the ME, until the time of judgment.

    Posted by antisocialist at 03/24/2009 @ 11:22am

57. Mask --

    Facts are facts. If the facts are that Israel offered "X" and the PA rejected the offer, then one can argue that Israel should offer X plus Y, but one cannot argue that Israel is wrong because it won't even offer X. The problem isn't that people have chosen sides, the problem is that most people on both sides, as well as most moderates, are not sufficiently informed and raise arguments that are ignorant of and even contrary to the facts. So for example, the fact that Israel has offered 93% of the west Bank, plus a 3% land transfer compensation, gives lie to all the arguments that allege that israel doesn't want peace, and is trying to get rid of the palestinians and take away their land. It doesn't make Israel right about the recent Gaza War, doesn't necessarily make israel right about it's partial blockade of gaza, doesn't necessarily make the PA wrong about things. But it does require an end to the anti-Israel lies, propoganda and libel. Not out of a sense of fairness. But because of the facts.

    Posted by gren at 03/24/2009 @ 12:06pm

58. Why doesn't anybody realize that this is most likely only the beginning of a conflict? Consider the French and the Germans: centuries of medieval warfare, Frederick, Napoleon, WWI, WWII, and only then were the boundaries fixed and peace achieved. Or Serbia: the story goes back at least to the battle of Kosovo in the 14th century. The parties involved then, the Ottoman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Tsar of all the Russias, where are they now? And the conflict continues.

    Most likely this new struggle in the lands around Jerusalem will still be in the headlines in some distant future when Saudi Arabia, Iran, the European Union, The United States, and the People's Democratic Republic of China won't appear in any history books with "modern era" in the title.

    Posted by Mistral at 03/24/2009 @ 1:53pm