The Notion

Sarah Palin and the Jews

posted by Jon Wiener on 09/08/2008 @ 4:25pm

Sarah Palin took the biblical Queen Esther as her role model when she became governor, according to her former pastor--a report that suggests her ties to Jewish history are stronger than you might have expected.

When Palin took office as governor in 2006, according to the New York Times, she asked her former pastor in the Assembly of God church in Wasilla for "a biblical example of people who were great leaders and what was the secret of their leadership"--that's what Paul E. Riley, the pastor, told Kirk Johnson and Kim Severson of the Times. He recommended the Old Testament story of Esther, the beautiful Jewish queen who persuaded the Persian king to save the Jews from annihilation and instead let them kill their enemies. The story is celebrated by Jews annually in the Feast of Purim.

The parallels are clear. Esther was selected queen in a beauty contest; Palin was runner-up in the Miss Alaska pageant.

So Queen Esther apparently provided the role model for the former beauty queen who went to our own king and asked for earmarks for her people.

The Palin/Queen Esther report has sparked a flood of commentary from fundamentalist Christian web sites. One reports that "Sarah Palin, like Esther, was an unlikely choice. Sarah Palin, like Esther, is bold and courageous in the face of fear. Sarah Palin, like Esther, proves you can be loyal and devoted to your family while having a high position. But perhaps, more than anything, . . . we are seeing someone right before our eyes who is capturing the hearts of the American people in a way that defies description" - just like the Bible says, "And Esther won the favor of everyone who saw her."

Another says "Every once in a while a woman comes along who is made for the times. Sarah Palin is such a woman. . . . Another woman, Esther, was brought on the scene by God at just the right time. God's timing was perfect for he used Esther to save the Jews"--and now he is using Palin to save the Republicans.

One problem with this view -that God sent Palin the way He sent Esther -- is that the Book of Esther never mentions God. It never says God sent Esther to save His people, or even that Esther's belief in God gave her the power to defeat her enemies. Somebody should point this out to the fundamentalists.

If you follow the logic in the story - as another fundamentalist Christian website did - you find a "major, and creepily precise" parallel between the threats to Jews then and now. In Esther's day the threat came from Persia - and what country is the modern successor to Persia? Iran, of course -- "the same Iran that has vowed to wipe Israel off the map and is well on their way to acquiring the nuclear weaponry to do so . . . . And along comes tough, clear-eyed, plain-speaking Sarah Palin."

The implications for Palin's Iran policy are clear. In the Bible, after the Jews are saved from annihilation, and after the first day of Jewish revenge against their enemies, the King tells Esther the Jews have killed 500 people, and asks what she wants to do next. Esther says she wants permission for a second day of killing - so the king grants the Jews the right "to destroy, to slay, and to cause to perish the entire host of every people and province that oppress them, small children and women, and to take their spoils for plunder."

The Bible says the Jews then killed 75,000 more of their enemies. It doesn't say anything about Jewish casualties, which makes it seem like a one-sided slaughter. (This part usually doesn't get mentioned at the Purim carnival.)

The cover of Newsweek this week is a photo of Palin with a shotgun. The Iranians should be worried - and so should the Americans.

Comments (206)

  1. Oh, we HAVE to encourage the Religous Righties on this....

    "Sarah is 'Esther'!"

    Would that make Maverick "McMordecai"?!??!?

    LOL

    Posted by Maskdelta at 09/08/2008 @ 4:34pm

  2. >>>One problem with this view -that God sent Palin the way He sent Esther -- is that the Book of Esther never mentions God. It never says God sent Esther to save His people, or even that Esther's belief in God gave her the power to defeat her enemies. Somebody should point this out to the fundamentalists. <<<

    Another problem is Palin's pastor believes Jesus is some sort of war general who kills "everyone" who doesn't believe in him. So if we are to take Christian Fundamentalism seriously and the crazy Book of Revelations that they often cite, Jesus is to slay JEWS that do not accept him.

    SOMEONE SHOULD POINT THIS OUT TO THE JEWS!!!

    Posted by Metteyya at 09/08/2008 @ 4:37pm

  3. Posted by 2HAPPY at 09/08/2008 @ 4:32pm

    Uh, HAPP...it's the Religious Right who are making the analogy...not Mr Weiner!

    Posted by Maskdelta at 09/08/2008 @ 4:47pm

  4. well t all sounds pretty kooky, but we ARE talking about some scary folks wth scary deas.

    if she is some kind of esther then it aint the jews who are her people and it aint the iranians who will be the victims of a pogrom.

    the chosen people are the christofascists and their allies the satano-aynrandos and the victims of their pogrom will be everyone else in this country.

    watch out heathens!!!!!

    Posted by dexter666 at 09/08/2008 @ 4:53pm

  5. wooooo weeeeee

    fasten them belts and have that celestial airbag checked...

    Rapture Index 162

    Net Change +1

    Updated Sept 8, 2008

    recent causes of speed increase:

    Updated Sept 8, 2008

    04 Unemployment: Unemployment climbs to 5-year high of 6.1 percent

    05 Inflation: Consumer prices continue to soar.

    23 Gog (Russia): Russia invades its southern neighbor Georgia.

    a little downward pressure from...

    37 Earthquakes: The lack of activity has downgraded this category.

    -----

    whackkeeee folk. Why not let them have 8 more years? They are "mainstream!"

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/08/2008 @ 5:45pm

  6. Posted by Zero at 09/08/2008 @ 5:23pm

    Palin is a right-wing nut who energizes the "progressive" base more than the conservatives. This is not only because of her extreme views, but because John McCain is 72 and has had several bouts with cancer.

    Palin also may be the best hope of sinking the McCain ticket as more news comes out concerning her ethics violations and abuse of power. She can't run as a reformer and be found to have abused her power in a manner similar to Dick Cheney.

    Posted by Metteyya at 09/08/2008 @ 5:47pm

  7. Reeeaach for it....

    Palin as VP

    or sorcery as "drug use"

    [12. Drug Abuse

    (Rev. 9:21) Everyone knows what drugs are today. The Bible also may make mention of drugs. In the book of Revelation the word sorcery has the Greek word pharmakeia as its root. This is where we get the word pharmacy. When it says, "they repented not of their sorceries," it could mean they repented not of their drug use.]

    [15. Moral Standards

    This is the fabric which holds our society together. When a state of disorder takes over, strong forces are needed to bring back control. Civil rights are often the first casualty of this action.]

    who knew that the first attacks on librool media could be found in biblical tomes?

    [29. Liberalism

    It's not just a part of the Democrat Party. liberalism is what could be called the "true conspiracy." Liberal media are 100 percent controlled by the forces that bow to humanistic ideology.]

    GE, VIACOM and Clear Channel better get with their shareholders and work out the "real" fiduciary duties, humanistic ideology!

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/08/2008 @ 5:53pm

  8. HAPPY, follow your logic path here,

    McCain gets a boost in the polls, why?

    A women that nobody knows may be a heartbeat away from dealing with Putin head to head. She has a pregnant 17 year old unmarried daughter.

    and you guys rejoice?!!

    Sheep. sheep sheep.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/08/2008 @ 5:57pm

  9. >>> I strongly suggest the Magic campaign to shoot ALL of its top strategists and start over....it surely can't hurt!

    Posted by 2HAPPY at 09/08/2008 @ 5:53pm<<<

    If you think McSame is going to continue to fool people into thinking he is a "reformer" then it is YOU that are drinking the Kool-Aid!

    Posted by Metteyya at 09/08/2008 @ 5:59pm

  10. What do we know about Sarah when she hits the polls?

    Jesus freak-check

    NRA member-check

    Union member-check (oops, we LOVE unions here in the GOP!)

    So, God....and guns.

    But, Obama made a comment about people turning to god and guns, and you all went apeshit over it.

    Just like you worship at the altar of Family Values, then praise the teen mom.

    I thought conservatives were about the commitment to steadfast moral beliefs?

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/08/2008 @ 6:01pm

  11. ANYONE WHO MENTIONS REVERND WRIGHT AGREES WITH THIS!!!

    MCCAIN…AGAINST THE AGENTS OF INTOLERANCE BEFORE HE WAS FOR THEM…ERR, I MEAN BEFORE HE NEEDED THEM!!!

    Pastor Hagee May 21st 2008 (McCain sought his "political endorsement"

    "Then god sent a hunter. A hunter is someone with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter. And the Bible says -- Jeremiah writing -- 'They shall hunt them from every mountain and from every hill and from the holes of the rocks,' meaning there's no place to hide. And that might be offensive to some people but don't let your heart be offended. I didn't write it, Jeremiah wrote it. It was the truth and it is the truth. How did it happen? Because God allowed it to happen. Why did it happen? Because God said my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel."

    http://mediamatters.org/items/200803140013

    John Hagee has said that "Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans," and pastor Rod Parsley reportedly wrote that "America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion [of Islam] destroyed."

    Jerry Falwell (Burn in hell…McCain also sought his endorsement)

    http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/rel_war/falwell_jews.htm

    "In a church in Kingsport, Falwell told an enthusiastic audience that the Antichrist was alive, walking around somewhere, and was a male Jew. What he didn't know was a reporter was in the audience and the word leaked out." "Falwell concludes his website with the statement that his remark that the Antichrist is a Jew is neither anti-Jewish nor anti-Semitic and that some of his best friends are Jewish. This is total nonsense. Why has his Southern Baptist Convention opened a national campaign targeting Jews?

    Posted by CanWeQuestionPalin? at 09/08/2008 @ 6:15pm

  12. I'M TIRED OF GUILT BY ASSOCIATION POLITICS WHEN EVERYONE HAS MET OR KNOWS SOMEONE WHO'S NUTS!!! Just read blogs.

    More of McCain's late friend...

    http://www.actupny.org/YELL/falwell.html

    "And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters -- the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats -- what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact -- if, in fact -- God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."

    And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

    People for McCain/Palin simply cannot be in their hearts be "Putting Country First". There has to be a blinding underlying hatred of the left not to see reason, or reality.

    Posted by CanWeQuestionPalin? at 09/08/2008 @ 6:17pm

  13. >>>Doesn't your party promote single Great Society women becoming pregnant....so, you support Bristol?

    Posted by 2HAPPY at 09/08/2008 @ 6:08pm<<<

    But Sarah doesn't support women LIKE HER DAUGHTER and that is why she stripped the Passage House group of money, a group that helps teen moms get skills and education so they can lead productive lives after pregnancy.

    PALIN IS FIRST CLASS HYPOCRITE, JUST LIKE HER PALS IN WASHINGTON THAT SHE "CLAIMS" SHE WANTS TO CHANGE!!!

    Posted by Metteyya at 09/08/2008 @ 6:17pm

  14. Damn...that's what I get for typing too fast.

    "The biggest problem the Dems have is staying as NOT "stubbornly on message" as the Republicans. No matter the facts."

    But you could argue that the reason Dems have lost in the past is "stubbornly staying on the wrong political tactics", when the facts always win out. Kerry was a wimp as a Presidential candidate. If only he's grown the balls he showed at the DNC, we wouldn't be here. Gore too.

    Posted by CanWeQuestionPalin? at 09/08/2008 @ 6:22pm

  15. Damn typo's.

    I know that because I didn't spell check, all of my arguments are void. And not citing a quote once, after citing it previously 10 times at least would also be an un-electable plagiaristic crime.

    You know what should really be an un-electable crime? Not knowing anything about the war you're sending your son off to fight.

    I hope Charlie Gibson asks...

    "What do you think of how God's plan for Iraq has turned out?"

    "Do you think God...err, I mean Bush should have sent troops into Iraq to begin with? You know...given he had to lie and commit treason to get them there?"

    "Why does McCain apparently not even know what Walter Reed looks like?"

    Shit I better stop...I might give Joe Lieberman too much of a head start. I bet they bump the interview when she flunks Joe's tests. He must not be such a good teacher...McCain is still getting Iraq wrong, along with the difference between Sunni and Shiite. I guess you have to consider the choice after all. Huh McCain?

    Posted by CanWeQuestionPalin? at 09/08/2008 @ 6:27pm

  16. Posted by 2HAPPY at 09/08/2008 @ 5:53pm

    Desperation.

    Obama still leads state polls. He is still up in the electoral college which means he is still winning the election by about 60-70 electoral college votes. Sooooo. Your posting of the CBS poll doesn't make much of a difference because you are still losing the race. Oh well. Keep trying.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/08/2008 @ 6:27pm

  17. Posted by RedRiver_. at 09/08/2008 @ 6:26pm

    Hey RedRiver, can you name some Republican women infinitely more qualified than "Sister Sarah"?

    If not, that's truly a sad statement about the future of the Republican Party. You should worry. But it makes me feel just fine.

    BTW, RED-River...you're not a Communist are you?

    Posted by CanWeQuestionPalin? at 09/08/2008 @ 6:30pm

  18. Posted by 2HAPPY at 09/08/2008 @ 5:53pm

    Polls, polls, polls...It's votes that count genius.

    No one knows her...12 days and counting.

    REPUBLICANS WILL NEVER MONOPOLIZE WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AMERICAN NO MATTER HOW LOUD THEY SCREAM!!!!

    REPUBLICANS ATTACK SARAH PALIN'S FAMILY AND QUALIFICATIONS!!!

    http://www.thedailyshow.com sarah-palin-gender-card

    MCCAIN ATTACKS…HIMSELF!!!

    http://www.thedailyshow.com john-mccain-reformed-maverick

    "As for that VP talk all the time, I'll tell you, I still can't answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does every day? I'm used to being very productive and working real hard in an administration. We want to make sure that that VP slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we're trying to accomplish up here for the rest of the U.S., before I can even start addressing that question."

    Posted by CanWeQuestionPalin? at 09/08/2008 @ 6:35pm

  19. Lie Lie Miss American Pie.

    If McCain gets elected then America cries…

    "You good ole boys pulled the wool on our eyes…"

    Singing "this will be the day that we died."

    "This will be the day that we died."

    Posted by CanWeQuestionPalin? at 09/08/2008 @ 6:35pm

  20. Republicans and their chorus of hate-mongers:

    "Muslim, Muslim, Muslim, BOOO!!!"

    "Fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear..."

    "Real American"

    McCain wasn't actually born on American soil. Obama was.

    "Mr. McCain's likely nomination as the Republican candidate for president and the happenstance of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936 are reviving a musty debate that has surfaced periodically since the founders first set quill to parchment and declared that only a "natural-born citizen" can hold the nation's highest office."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics

    or google McCain born in Panama.

    Posted by CanWeQuestionPalin? at 09/08/2008 @ 6:37pm

  21. redriver-You are not an independent.You are one of the most partisan people around.You can register as a cow,but that doesn't make you a cow.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 09/08/2008 @ 6:56pm

  22. Sorry, but there was no Christian Conservative party which position is clearly distinctive from either the Republican or "Undemocratic" parties so that was all that was left to fill in! Posted by RedRiver_. at 09/08/2008 @ 7:02pm

    What the CofCC? That's a party, I think.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/08/2008 @ 7:19pm

  23. Oh by the way CofCC stands for Coalition of Christian Conservatives.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/08/2008 @ 7:20pm

  24. I thought you all would appreciate this quote from The Renovare Spiritual Formation Bible introducing the Book of Esther:

    "In other ways, the book of Esther is only too familiar. We have a jealous king, a campaign to scapegoat innocent immigrants, and a government run by self-promoters who are out of touch with their own population. All of this confronts a young woman who finds herself caught in an impossible situation she had no part in creating. It is a world much like our own, in which the politics of 'us against them' are driven by sexism, ethnocentrism and nationalism...Indeed, the world of Esther is a world of chance and insecurity in which nothing seems certain. And in this world, as in our own, the question that keeps pressing in is, 'Where is God in all of this?'"

    Posted by srjenkins at 09/08/2008 @ 7:22pm

  25. Jon

    It is too bad that there are alot of Christians out there who misinterpret and misuse the Bible. God does not cause the destructions we see today as I read it. We were given authority over the earth but we gave it up to Satan by our choice to be independent of God. So the great destroyer is always out to steal, kill and destroy in anyway he can, plus the whole world is in disarray because of the same choice of us. We can take that authority back through the power of Jesus. We can follow his example. After Katrina a second storm was headed toward the U.S. Many prayed and it disapated. I watched my dad, a farmer talk to God different times for help with crops, keeping a rainstorm at bay so we could get the hay off. I think the Jews often misunderstood God and who was at work. Jesus came to staighten it out- if you've seen me you've seen my dad.

    O.K. Sarah and Esther. A decent analogy, depending on how parallel you choose to make it.

    Jon, sometimes when people write some things are understood. When Esther asked people not to eat for three days, it was for fasting and praying to God for favor. Being wise and crafty is often required when up against enemies that are equally crafty. Do we want terror on our land again? I was in such disbelief when a lady came into McDonalds behind us on Sept 11, 2001 and said planes had hit the towers and she misquoted that the White House was on fire. Then I got into the car and was shocked to hear it on the radio. Our security was shaken. We've had 7 safe years since then. Who will best keep us safe? Who understands that the terrorist are not friendly? McCain/Palin vote safe, vote smart

    Posted by PeterJ at 09/08/2008 @ 7:38pm

  26. This thread REALLY needs LVLIBERTY's input!

    LOL

    Posted by Maskdelta at 09/08/2008 @ 8:37pm

  27. This election cycle has turned into a through the looking glass and down the rabbit hole freak show. "The Uncle Fester and Hitler in a Dress" road carnival. Hell, at this point Sarah could come to the microphone and rip a smelly and the Republicans would cheer wildly. If I was watching a Federico Fellini film at least I could switch it off. The next 2 months may well put many of us over the edge.

    Posted by chaoszen at 09/08/2008 @ 9:06pm

  28. Posted by 2HAPPY at 09/08/2008 @ 5:53pm

    hey poll dancer.

    this is the REAL site if you like to spin the poll:

    http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

    this is done well.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 9:24pm

  29. so, you support Bristol?

    Posted by 2HAPPY at 09/08/2008 @ 6:08pm

    poor bristol. they named her after bristol bay, a gem in a part of the world of incredible beauty.

    and now, her mom is gung-ho about OPENING A GOLD MINE* on it's shores.

    her mother is defiling her namesake.

    mmmmm, arsenic and cyanide.

    *as in world's largest open pit mine.

    HAVE YOU ANY IDEA HOW GOLD IS MINED?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 9:28pm

  30. I hope Charlie Gibson asks...

    Posted by CanWeQuestionPalin? at 09/08/2008 @ 6:27pm

    i wouldn't hope too hard.......

    <i>So Governor, Do you think you'll find the VP's residence a big change from your hockeymom home in Alaska? At least you'll have more room for America's newest granddaughter.</i>

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 9:34pm

  31. When there is a place of incredible beauty the buzzards sent by the Neo-Cons will remake it in their own image.

    Posted by chaoszen at 09/08/2008 @ 9:38pm

  32. 'Where is God in all of this?'"

    Posted by srjenkins at 09/08/2008 @ 7:22pm

    i think it is saying,

    "wtf humans? i worked real hard on y'all and look how you turned out. next time i let the bugs take over."

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 9:40pm

  33. McCain/Palin vote safe, vote smart

    Posted by PeterJ at 09/08/2008 @ 7:38pm

    god help you.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 9:41pm

  34. McCain/Palin vote safe, vote smart

    Posted by PeterJ at 09/08/2008 @ 7:38pm

    and god help me, too.

    anyhoo,

    there are 5 million muslims in the u.s..

    why haven't they blown anybody up?

    there's at least 12,000 gun-related homicides in the u.s. every year.

    so, that's 84,000 dead.

    perhaps you need to reorient your fear.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 9:44pm

  35. Posted by Zero at 09/08/2008 @ 7:58pm

    zero,

    i've got plunger, rese and frank on ignore.

    all for obvious reasons.

    as to plunger and rese, it pains me but i gave up spam when i quit eating dead animals.

    as to frank, the threads are just way better without his arrogant ranting.

    and i used to respect the dude.....

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 9:46pm

  36. If you think that is acceptable, go for it. I don't want any religious organization or faith, including my own taking over the US government.

    Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/21/2007 @ 11:16am

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 9:50pm

  37. So would you have a problem with people taking over the US Government who believe that ...the End Times are close, Israel is always right, creationism should be taught in public schools, and that a specific RELIGIOUS view of abortion and homosexuality should be enforced as government policy???

    Posted by Mask at 10/21/2007 @ 8:09pm

    answer the man's question, pastor.

    you still haven't.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 9:51pm

  38. "HAVE YOU ANY IDEA HOW GOLD IS MINED? Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 9:28pm"

    Don't they just dig a hole?

    "and now, her mom is gung-ho about OPENING A GOLD MINE* on it's shores."

    It's actually about a hundred miles from Bristol Bay. But on a map of Alaska it looks real close, because Alaska's so big. Can a governor really open a gold mine? BTW, the PEOPLE of Alaska just defeated a measure that would have nixed the mine. I guess they liked the idea of MORE JOBS.

    Posted by twillie at 09/08/2008 @ 9:51pm

  39. The next 2 months may well put many of us over the edge.

    Posted by chaoszen at 09/08/2008 @ 9:06pm

    <B>WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!!!!!!!!</B>

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 9:52pm

  40. They have a Pres. candidate Obamanation born to a muslim NON-citzen father and a secular humanist barely legal mother (18) and yet they disparage clearly American servicemen and their families!

    Posted by RedRiver_. at 09/08/2008 @ 9:34pm |

    When has any Democrat ever disparaged American servicemen and their families? Seems to me the Neo-Cons pay lip service to supporting the troops but never walk the talk. Seems to me that recently Jim Webbs bill passed the Senate in support of veterans notwithstanding enormous Republican opposition. The Neo-Cons just use the troops as window dressing without actually supporting them. Seems to me Barack Obama supported that bill and McSame opposed it. Get real.

    Posted by chaoszen at 09/08/2008 @ 9:53pm

  41. Didja hear ... Palin's fundyvangenut church in Wasilla can "pray the Gay away"

    Hallelujah brothers .. heal this wretched soul. Oh foul spirits of gay-i-tude begone. (Then they start speaking in tongues ... something else they are known for.)

    So is Sister Sarah gonna start spouting gobbledygook at State functions? "Good evening Mr Prime Minister, we'd just like to tell you and your lovely wife....uh, er.....yabbedy, blabbedy, bing bong boo, spoot be-yanna whoof wibble-snort. Amen...Jesus be praised. "

    ...and will there be moose-handling?

    Posted by leftofcenter at 09/08/2008 @ 9:55pm

  42. attack palin on ideology, record, and character. hit hard and keep hitting. leave her stupid daughter out of it (obama).

    reveal her ideology for what it is - same as last 8 years, just a reversal in terms of potus/veep.

    Posted by dexter666 at 09/08/2008 @ 9:56pm

  43. Posted by twillie at 09/08/2008 @ 9:51pm

    "a hole" .. are you kidding? Things like gold ... mineral products of high value ... are diffuse in nature and must be concentrated. Often times this involves cyanide leaching (it seems the stuff dissolves silver and gold) when strict gravitational settling methods (fancy "panning-type" methods) prove insufficient.

    http://tinyurl.com/6qvce8

    Posted by leftofcenter at 09/08/2008 @ 10:01pm

  44. Don't they just dig a hole?

    Posted by twillie at 09/08/2008 @ 9:51pm

    no. they damn rivers. gold mining requires a lot of water.

    "Arsenic is a common element in the natural environment and is frequently a significant component in gold deposits of the western United States. Such deposits contain various forms of arsenic: arsenides, sulfides, and sulfosalts. Upon weathering such minerals routinely lower the pH of nearby waters, mobilizing arsenic and other metals. Arsenic may also be mobilized in aqueous environments where cyanide has been used to leach gold ores, resulting in high water pH. Incorrect construction of monitoring wells can result in contamination by cement/grout, which may raise pH causing arsenic concentrations to appear inordinately elevated. Concentrations of arsenic toxic to humans and aquatic life have resulted from mining activities in some instances. Hence, regulatory agencies in the U.S. are requiring gold mining companies to comply with very restrictive arsenic standards. The authors of this paper have been involved on many mining projects, mostly in the Western United States, where elevated arsenic content impacted the development of mineral deposits, or created a potential for environmental problems. Several case histories of the pre-mining arsenic content in surface and ground water on gold mining projects throughout western United States and Alaska are presented. The technical aspects of an elevated arsenic content in surface and ground water, mined areas, and waste disposals are discussed. Potential for arsenic contamination of water resources during and after gold mining operations with cyanide heap leach or other gold recovery methods are also presented. "

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 10:05pm

  45. <B>WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!!!!!!!!</B>

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 9:52pm

    To be honest I sometimes have the same feeling about your posts. I was talking about the perception that im stuck in a bad dream and can't wake up. Im talking about the possibilty of losing ones mind in the face of a totally bizarre and unexpected reaction to the fact that the world has gone insane and might suck me in. I thought it was self explanatory. Maybe I just need another beer..

    Posted by chaoszen at 09/08/2008 @ 10:08pm

  46. 85 percent of global demand for gold is driven by jewelry.

    <<<<<>>>>>

    According to the only poll targeting them, Bristol Bay residents are strongly opposed to the mine, with 71% opposed, 20% in favor, and 9% undecided.

    <<<<<<>>>>>

    The sublethal effects of copper on the sensory physiology of juvenile coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch) were evaluated. In vivo field potential recordings from the olfactory epithelium (electro-olfactograms) were used to measure the impacts of copper on the responses of olfactory receptor neurons to natural odorants (L-serine and taurocholic acid) and an odorant mixture (L-arginine, L-aspartic acid, L-leucine, and L-serine) over a range of stimulus concentrations. Increases in copper impaired the neurophysiological response to all odorants within 10 min of exposure. The inhibitory effects of copper (1.0–20.0 μg/L) were dose-dependent and they were not influenced by water hardness. Toxicity thresholds for the different receptor pathways were determined by using the benchmark dose method and found to be similar (a 2.3–3.0 μg/L increase in total dissolved copper over background). Collectively, examination of these data indicates that copper is broadly toxic to the salmon olfactory nervous system. Consequently, short-term influxes of copper to surface waters may interfere with olfactory-mediated behaviors that are critical for the survival and migratory success of wild salmonids.

    <<<<>>>>

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 10:13pm

  47. On January 30, 2000, as a result of snow and rain, water in the tailings impoundment overtopped the dam, resulting in a break in the dam. One hundred and thirty cubic yards of mine waste containing approximately 75 tons of cyanide flowed into the Sasar River, and then into the Somes. The Somes is a branch of the Tisza river, the second largest river in Hungary. All of these rivers are part of the larger Danube River system.

    In all, over 1,200 miles of the Danube River system were contaminated. The spill threatened the drinking water supplies of 2.5 million people and caused enormous damage to wildlife in Hungary and Yugoslavia. It was estimated that 80% of all fish in the Tisza River died as a result of the spill.

    <<<<<>>>>>

    Gold cyanidation (also known as the cyanide process or the MacArthur-Forrest process) is a metallurgical technique for extracting gold from low-grade ore by converting the gold to water soluble aurocyanide metallic complex ions. It is the most commonly used process for gold extraction. Due to the highly poisonous nature of cyanide, the process is highly controversial.

    <<<<<>>>>>

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 10:14pm

  48. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 9:51pm

    LVLIB can quote us all day what the Bible says about hypocrites...

    and NEVER even consider he is one.

    Which of course IS the mark of a hypocrite.

    Posted by Maskdelta at 09/08/2008 @ 10:14pm

  49. Résumé / Abstract The effect of seepage from a gold mine slime dam on the levels of trace heavy metals in a nearby receiving stream and dam were studied between 1993 and 1995. The heavy metals studied include Cd, Mn, Fe, Co, Ni, Pb, Ag, Cu, Zn and Cr. The major cations Na+, K+, Ca2+, Mg2+, the SO42- anion, pH, alkalinity, and hardness were also determined. The results obtained confirm that seepage from the slime dam has a very strong influence on the levels of dissolved trace heavy metals in the stream and dam.

    NO, THEY DON'T JUST DIG A HOLE.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 10:18pm

  50. I thought it was self explanatory.

    Posted by chaoszen at 09/08/2008 @ 10:08pm

    of course it was.

    i was just offering an example :=]

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 10:22pm

  51. To be honest I sometimes have the same feeling about your posts.

    Posted by chaoszen at 09/08/2008 @ 10:08pm

    that's good. that's the intention. it's a strategy i learned from karl rove.

    after all,

    what does

    "Toxicity thresholds for the different receptor pathways were determined by using the benchmark dose method and found to be similar (a 2.3–3.0 μg/L increase in total dissolved copper over background). "

    mean?

    (actually i understand that)

    really, when i want something to be understood, i'll be clear.

    i'm a musician so overtones and pulses are my realm.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 10:27pm

  52. Well, you just want Mr. Obama to put up or shut up (or down?). Big Mc is of course the number one maverick and Dems always entused when he attacked fellow gopers. How about Obama's change? 8 yrs ago Bubba promised lots of changes and he did accomplish lots of them. The same is with Obama now.

    -----------

    Obama: McCain-Palin 'lying' about maverick claims by Jitendra Joshi Jitendra Joshi 2 hrs 42 mins ago FARMINGTON HILLS, Michigan (AFP) – Barack Obama ripped into John McCain and Sarah Palin as never before Monday, accusing his Republican White House foes of "shameless" dishonesty with their claim to be "mavericks" ready to shake up Washington.

    McCain and Palin were "lying about their records," the Obama campaign said after the Republican running mates advertised themselves in a television spot as the "original mavericks" who would stand up for hard-pressed voters.

    Some of the White House race's most savage exchanges yet came as polls showed the contenders deadlocked or McCain pulling into a post-convention lead after he electrified the Republican base -- and appeared to confound the Obama campaign -- by adding Alaska Governor Palin to his ticket.

    Posted by HelenDAO at 09/08/2008 @ 10:32pm

  53. I think that we all know that gold and silver mining has a detrimental effect on ground water, fisheries, creeks, streams and rivers and everthing that lives on the planet. Increasing mercury levels and other heavy metals up and down the food chain. Even the production of treating wood with CCA-C (Copper Chromated Aresenic) causes enormous damage to the ecosystem. But that is an entire other subject. I thought we were talking about Sarah Palin and the Jews. Jesus..

    Posted by chaoszen at 09/08/2008 @ 10:36pm

  54. I still think they just dig a hole. But a big, deep hole.

    I understand the science too. Like many industrial processes, potentially toxic substances are generated. but, if you want the gold, you have to go through the process...And you take steps to control the toxins.

    But, where does Palin come in?

    Posted by twillie at 09/08/2008 @ 10:48pm

  55. Are all you American lefties are missing the real target?

    JUST GET BUSH OUT OF THERE.

    Should McCain become president, Palin will certainly succeed him, perhaps during the inauguration. The bitterly cold weather in Washington in January will probably be the death of him, but they are conditions for which his VP is perfectly adapted. (As a television comic pointed out, Palin is pro-life and he's fighting for life.) Should McCain survive the ceremony, natural causes will get him within weeks and we'll be stuck with an ultra-carnivorous, gun-wielding, evolution-denying, fundamentalist dominatrix who lacks the most necessary attribute for the high office. No, not foreign affairs experience: as her boosters point out, Alaska is next door to Russia, so she's got that covered. I fear she lacks the all-important qualification: McCain's hatred of George W. Bush.

    I don't really mind who wins the presidential election as long as they detest the detestable incumbent. (One must apply a similar test to the next leader of our Liberal Party: who hates John Howard more, Peter Costello or Malcolm Turnbull?) The next president - or, in the case of a McCain victory, the one immediately after that - must purge the Oval Office of any remaining vestiges of George W. Bush. Nothing less than political fumigation must occur in the West Wing, along with repeated rituals of exorcism. The US should follow the Kremlin's example and airbrush Bush out of history.

    That's all I ask of president Palin: don't be a pale imitation."

    More here: http://tinyurl.com/644ptt

    Posted by lrjones4 at 09/08/2008 @ 10:58pm

  56. Let us hope she doesn't "come in". A demon who wants to "Pray Away The Gay". Pray for God to direct a pipeline construction and direct the events in fallujah needs to be laughed away. Thats what you do with ridiculous demons to neutralize them. You laugh them away. HAHAHAHA, Guffaw, Chortle! Is she gone yet?

    Posted by chaoszen at 09/08/2008 @ 11:01pm

  57. I thought we were talking about Sarah Palin and the Jews. Jesus..

    Posted by chaoszen at 09/08/2008 @ 10:36pm

    ms. palin is scum.

    religion is the megadistraction in all this.

    she needs to be exposed for the vile creature she is and blah blah blahing about her religion will only cause this whole mess to spiral farther down the toilet of stupidity.

    here:

    15 "According to law, what must be done to Queen Vashti?" he asked. "She has not obeyed the command of King Xerxes that the eunuchs have taken to her."

    16 Then Memucan replied in the presence of the king and the nobles, "Queen Vashti has done wrong, not only against the king but also against all the nobles and the peoples of all the provinces of King Xerxes. 17 For the queen's conduct will become known to all the women, and so they will despise their husbands and say, 'King Xerxes commanded Queen Vashti to be brought before him, but she would not come.' 18 This very day the Persian and Median women of the nobility who have heard about the queen's conduct will respond to all the king's nobles in the same way. There will be no end of disrespect and discord.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 11:17pm

  58. 19 "Therefore, if it pleases the king, let him issue a royal decree and let it be written in the laws of Persia and Media, which cannot be repealed, that Vashti is never again to enter the presence of King Xerxes. Also let the king give her royal position to someone else who is better than she. 20 Then when the king's edict is proclaimed throughout all his vast realm, all the women will respect their husbands, from the least to the greatest."

    21 The king and his nobles were pleased with this advice, so the king did as Memucan proposed. 22 He sent dispatches to all parts of the kingdom, to each province in its own script and to each people in its own language, proclaiming in each people's tongue that every man should be ruler over his own household.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 11:17pm

  59. But, where does Palin come in?

    Posted by twillie at 09/08/2008 @ 10:48pm

    hmmm?

    governor palin?

    no idea.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 11:18pm

  60. thats what you do with ridiculous demons to neutralize them. You laugh them away. HAHAHAHA, Guffaw, Chortle! Is she gone yet?

    Posted by chaoszen at 09/08/2008 @ 11:01pm

    "In the middle ages of Christianity opposition to the State opinions was hushed. The consequence was, Christianity became loaded with all the Romish follies. Nothing but free argument, raillery & even ridicule will preserve the purity of religion."

    thomas jefferson, father of nation and black children, 1776.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 11:21pm

  61. "hmmm? governor palin? no idea. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 11:18pm

    poor bristol. they named her after bristol bay, a gem in a part of the world of incredible beauty. and now, her mom is gung-ho about OPENING A GOLD MINE* on it's shores. her mother is defiling her namesake

    Well, you brought it up.

    Posted by twillie at 09/08/2008 @ 11:30pm

  62. she's the governor.

    isn't it her job to kinda get involved in such things?

    well, look here:

    OPEN PIT MINING - As part of a Bristol Bay fishing family myself, I would not support any resource development that would endanger the most sensitive and productive fishery in the world.

    The State of Alaska has stringent laws and regulations already in place to prevent environmental problems. As Governor, I will empower our state regulators, oversight officers, and scientists to do their jobs in all areas of resource development. I promise all Alaskans my administration will enforce the laws to the letter and insure protection of our fishing and environmental resources so they will not be compromised or endangered by development.

    The Pebble Mine is a lightening rod for any discussion of open pit mining. The Pebble management firm, Northern Dynasty Mines, Inc., has not yet submitted a plan for public review and comment so the specific impacts are unknown. From completion of exploration to development could take 10 years or better because of permitting issues, public hearings and lawsuits. Northern Dynasty has a legal right to complete its studies and submit applications before the state judges the costs and benefits of the project.

    <<<<<>>>>>

    in other words, don't ask me. let's let 10 years go by so i don't have to comment and risk my job. however, given that she seems to vaporize those that disagree with her, and that she identifies herself as a republican, i can hardly imagine she will "empower scientists".

    plus, she says this:

    January 09, 2007

    ALASKA GOVERNOR SARAH PALIN AND SENATOR STEVENS TODAY WELCOMED THE NEWS THAT PRESIDENT BUSH HAD LIFTED THE MORATORIUM BARRING OIL AND GAS DEVELOPMENT IN FEDERAL WATERS OFF BRISTOL BAY AND THE ALEUTIANS ISLANDS.

    true colours.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 12:18am

  63. I used to work out of Dutch Harbor in the Aleutians. Fishing for Pollock on a factory trawler. The area around Bristol Bay and along the Aleutian Island chain is perhaps one of the most pristine and awesomely beautiful places I have ever been. And I recently purchased a 5 acre parcel near Lower Beluga Lake. Water availability and quality was expected to be good. I wonder how long that will last with the likes of Sarah Palin and Ted Stevens in charge of raping the state.

    Posted by chaoszen at 09/09/2008 @ 01:18am

  64. Posted by chaoszen at 09/09/2008 @ 01:18am

    see,

    i'm just eccentric, not crazy.

    god bless,

    fz.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 01:44am

  65. Frosty Zoom,

    There are many people in all religions who are nominal. Some people in all religions who are fanatical. Some people in all religions who misinterpret the stuff and cause hell on earth for others. I would venture that the muslims who have come here are not the extremists. It is sad that there are many homicides in the U.S. each year. It is sad that so many don't raise their children with ways to deal with life so that they don't resort to violence as the answer. There are many problems that cause murder, but that alone should not cause us to turn a blind eye across the seas to those who would plan another 9/11 or worse. Being vigilant is wise. Being offensive , whether raising children or defending a nation is wise and good. Reading proverbs, following the teachings of Jesus can result in a life well lived.

    Don't even get me started on the gay thing. As a person who knows the issue personally, never has and never will have a relationship of that fashion, praying out the gay is a real choice. The unnaturalness of gay sex should be obvious to all, despite its appeal to those who struggle with the issue. It also depends on what you believe about God. Many cultures have accepted things that seemed good to them. Just because things are accepted and practiced it doesn't make it the truth. We all cringe today at the cultures that threw there children in a fire to sacrifice to their 'god', yet we embrace lies like abortion and homosexuality as valid choices. God does help us when we ask him. He is faithful to those who seek him with all their heart. Look to him and find life.

    Posted by PeterJ at 09/09/2008 @ 05:36am

  66. Worth repeating...

    What is more powerful, Jesus... or a condom?

    Bristol would come to the front of the class to answer, please show your work.

    Wow, turns out a secular condom is more powerful than Jesus!

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 07:26am

  67. "The unnaturalness of gay sex should be obvious to all,"-PeterJ

    Really? Then why do almost all animals exhibit homosexuality?

    Even sheep: "One report on sheep cited below states: Approximately 8% of rams exhibit sexual preferences [that is, even when given a choice] for male partners (male-oriented rams) in contrast to most rams, which prefer female partners (female-oriented rams). We identified a cell group within the medial preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus of age-matched adult sheep that was significantly larger in adult rams than in ewes...[20]"

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 07:33am

  68. "The unnaturalness of gay sex should be obvious to all,"-PeterJ

    In some cases, as many as 19% of pairs in a Mallard population are male-male homosexual

    Studies have shown that 10 to 15 percent of female western gulls in some populations in the wild are lesbian.

    An estimated one-quarter of all black swans pairings are homosexual

    Zoos in Japan and Germany have also documented gay male penguin couples.[19] The couples have been shown to build nests together and use a stone to replace an egg in the nest. Researchers at Rikkyo University in Tokyo, found 20 gay pairs at 16 major aquariums and zoos in Japan. Bremerhaven Zoo in Germany attempted to break up the gay male couples by importing female penguins from Sweden and separating the male couples, but they were unsuccessful. The zoo director stated the relationships were too strong between the gay couples.

    Male Drosophila melanogaster flies bearing two copies of a mutant allele in the fruitless gene court and attempt to mate exclusively with other males.

    The bonobo, which has a matriarchal society (unusual amongst apes), is a fully bisexual species -- both males and females engage in heterosexual and homosexual behavior, being noted for lesbianism in particular. About 60% of all sexual activity in this species is between two or more females. While the homosexual bonding system in bonobos represent the highest frequency of homosexuality known in any species, homosexuality has been reported for all great apes, including humans, as well as a number of other primate species.

    Source-Wiki.

    ---- "God does help us when we ask him. "

    Why don't you ask Her why She made nature so... unnatural?

    why do you fundies assume God is male? Could it be because christianity was created in a patriarchal society?

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 07:49am

  69. Case in point, gay sheep

    http://www.logcabin.org/

    "On the most important issue that LGBT Americans faced in the last decade--the federal marriage amendment--Sen. John McCain stood with us. Now we stand with him," said Log Cabin Republicans President Patrick Sammon.

    "Sen. McCain showed courage by bucking his own party's leadership and the president--twice voting against the amendment. He gave an impassioned speech on the Senate floor, calling the amendment ‘antithetical in every way to the core philosophy of Republicans.' He paid a political price for his vote," said Sammon.

    In recent years, too many Republican politicians have used divisive social issues in an effort to win elections. Sen. McCain is a different kind of Republican. He understands the GOP lost its majority in Congress in 2006 largely because the Party focused on divisive social issues. Sen. McCain knows the politics of fear and division will damage our Party and our nation so he's focusing the GOP on unifying core principles ..."

    ----

    I wonder if he said that with out a smile leaking through his lips?

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 07:54am

  70. So, it looks like on the Family Values front, McCain is a failure.

    For LBGT issues, apparently he is pro-teen sex and teen parenting too.

    Wow. and the sheep love this liberal government career politician that wants to change from the "successes" of George Bush.

    what got them all in a tizzy? God and guns.... and a moose.

    American Taliban run amok.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 07:58am

  71. There are many people in all religions who are nominal.

    •• yep.

    Some people in all religions who are fanatical.

    •• yep.

    Some people in all religions who misinterpret the stuff and cause hell on earth for others.

    •• interpret is probably a sufficient term. after all, isn't that what anybody does?

    I would venture that the muslims who have come here are not the extremists.

    •• well, that's lucky.

    It is sad that there are many homicides in the U.S. each year.

    •• yep.

    It is sad that so many don't raise their children with ways to deal with life so that they don't resort to violence as the answer.

    •• yep. CSI for breakfast is a bad idea.

    There are many problems that cause murder, but that alone should not cause us to turn a blind eye across the seas to those who would plan another 9/11 or worse.

    •• fair enough. but you don't catch "planners" with military action. you build strong diplomatic and law enforcement ties with countries to foster co-operation. and you don't support despots robbing their citizens blind so you can fuel greed. and you don't support apartheid.

    Being vigilant is wise.

    •• of course. especially with so many guns about. think about it: ten dudes, ten uzis, ten malls. scream jihad and start the bloodshed. the u.s. economy is shut down. very simple and cheap. yet it never happens. well, it does, but not in the name of religion but in the name of nihilism by our very children and neighbours.

    Being offensive , whether raising children or defending a nation is wise and good.

    •• hmmm... odd wording. think about this: why has nobody attacked paraguay or norway?

    Reading proverbs, following the teachings of Jesus can result in a life well lived.

    •• sure. and gandhi and buddha, too.

    Posted by PeterJ

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 08:39am

  72. Don't even get me started on the gay thing.

    •• you might want to rephrase that.

    As a person who knows the issue personally,

    •• ditto

    never has and never will have a relationship of that fashion,

    •• no way. men smell bad. and there hairy.

    praying out the gay is a real choice.

    •• out of where. we are all gay.

    The unnaturalness of gay sex should be obvious to all,

    •• it isn't to bonobos, beetles, sheep, fruit bats, dolphins, and orangutans.

    despite its appeal to those who struggle with the issue.

    •• live and let live. how can a homosexual harm you. i'd be more worried about people trying to modify the constitution to suit there religious ideals. read thomas jefferson, father of black children.

    It also depends on what you believe about God.

    •• god is the forest. god smells good. god is everything we can never understand.

    Many cultures have accepted things that seemed good to them.

    •• like wonder bread?

    Just because things are accepted and practiced it doesn't make it the truth.

    •• yeah, look at the federal reserve bank.

    We all cringe today at the cultures that threw there children in a fire to sacrifice to their 'god',

    •• you mean like the culture that sends them to die for oil?

    yet we embrace lies like abortion and homosexuality as valid choices.

    •• abortion is icky. sex is fun.

    God does help us when we ask him.

    •• and he helps the terrorists, too. ask them.

    He is faithful to those who seek him with all their heart.

    •• god's cool.

    Look to him and find life.

    •• actually, life found me.

    Posted by PeterJ at 09/09/2008 @ 05:36am

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 08:39am

  73. Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 07:54am

    A dilemma for ol' Maverick...

    take the endorsement of gay Republicans and alienate his fundy/evangey Christian base?

    or tell the Log Cabins, "Sorry guys, that was 'old McCain'...gotta keep you guys second class citizens if I'm going to get elected!"

    Posted by Maskdelta at 09/09/2008 @ 09:06am

  74. Just read your article John.

    I'm afraid you have WAY too much time on your hands.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 09/09/2008 @ 09:12am

  75. Posted by crabwalk at 09/08/2008 @ 5:57pm :HAPPY, follow your logic path here, McCain gets a boost in the polls, why? A women that nobody knows may be a heartbeat away from dealing with Putin head to head. She has a pregnant 17 year old unmarried daughter. and you guys rejoice?!! Sheep. sheep sheep."

    Once again, a minor child should be off-limits in political mudslinging. You may thing she's "fair game" because her mother is running for office, but you are mistaken. Take the high road and leave the children alone.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:20am

  76. Posted by PeterJ at 09/08/2008 @ 7:38pm

    Some good points :) Thanks.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:21am

  77. Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:20am

    Can we fairly comment on Sarah Palin's support for abstinence-only sex education?

    Posted by Maskdelta at 09/09/2008 @ 09:24am

  78. Posted by Zero at 09/08/2008 @ 7:57pm "i see that freak grits has returned, which will reduce the value of the comments thread to an abysmal depth of stupidity roughly comparable to Mrs. Wallaby's third grade "special needs" class."

    I find your comment about children with special needs grossly offensive. As a mother of a child with special needs it breaks my heart each time people say such things, because I know people like you look down on my daughter for something that is beyond her control. Shame on you!

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:25am

  79. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/08/2008 @ 9:44pm "there are 5 million muslims in the u.s..why haven't they blown anybody up?"

    Because they are not the extremeist of their religion.

    I thought you understood the difference between a muslim and a terrorist who practices an extreme form of the religion.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:28am

  80. jayne-When you run as a family values candidate,as Palin and others do,then you are inviting people to come in and look at your family.Maybe,these people should not claim that they have better family values than others.Palin knew what would happen and accepted the position,anyway.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 09/09/2008 @ 09:31am

  81. Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 07:26am "Worth repeating...What is more powerful, Jesus... or a condom? Bristol would come to the front of the class to answer, please show your work. Wow, turns out a secular condom is more powerful than Jesus!"

    Wrong. Abstinence, ie. Jesus, is the only 100% way to make sure you don't become pregnant. I know this from personal experience.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:31am

  82. Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 07:54am

    dammit.

    i write all that stuff to peter j. before i see your posts.

    now i feel redundant ;≠∫

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 09:32am

  83. jayne-A Buddhist that practices abstinence won't get pregnant,either.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 09/09/2008 @ 09:34am

  84. Take the high road and leave the children alone.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:20am

    ms. palin is the one who offers them up as props in her blind ambitions.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 09:34am

  85. Posted by Zero at 09/08/2008 @ 7:57pm

    to an abysmal depth of stupidity roughly comparable to Mrs. Wallaby's third grade "special needs" class."

    ≤≤≤≤≥≥≥≥

    I find your comment about children with special needs grossly offensive.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:25am

    ≤≤≤≤≥≥≥≥

    actually, zero, i agree on this. we are all special needs.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 09:36am

  86. Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 07:49am "why do you fundies assume God is male?"

    I can't speak for the "fundies" but as a Christian, I can tell you why I refer to Him with the male pronoun. Throughout the Bible, He is called Father. He created Adam first in his image and then created Eve so that man might not be alone.

    btw, if we called women Father and men Mother, I think we would likely use the feminine pronoun in reference to our Father.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:37am

  87. 'Esther was selected queen in a beauty contest; Palin was runner-up in the Miss Alaska pageant.' Jon Wiener -- The Nation -- 8 September, 2008

    'I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American [Barack Obama] who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy.' -- Senator Joe Biden -- February 2007

    Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/09/2008 @ 09:40am

  88. "Can we fairly comment on Sarah Palin's support for abstinence-only sex education?"

    I never said that was off-limits. Bringing her children into it is. But you do what you like.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:41am

  89. I thought you understood the difference between a muslim and a terrorist who practices an extreme form of the religion.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:28am

    of course i do.

    but religions aren't the problem.

    after all, PEOPLE write those books.

    people are the problem.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 09:45am

  90. i'm nobody - Please show me a quote where Palin says "I have better family values than those democrats". Being against abortion does not make her pregnant daughter fair game in the political debate.

    Telling kids that using condoms is "Safe Sex" is misleading and dangerous. No form of birth control is 100% effective, except for abstinence.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:47am

  91. Palin knew what would happen and accepted the position,anyway.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 09/09/2008 @ 09:31am

    and so did the mccain "campaign".

    all is according to plan.

    they knew she'd be attacked because she's very attackable because of her insane positions.

    so now, every UNINFORMED [insert sport here]mom in america will see it as an attack on A WOMAN JUST LIKE HER.

    neither issues, nor narrative.

    the manipulation goes much deeper into the realms of people's souls.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 09:49am

  92. Telling kids that using condoms is "Safe Sex" is misleading and dangerous. No form of birth control is 100% effective, except for abstinence.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:47am

    what's wrong with sex?

    it's fun.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 09:51am

  93. btw, if we called women Father and men Mother, I think we would likely use the feminine pronoun in reference to our Father.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:37am

    god is an "it".

    god is a "he" in religious texts because men write them while the ladyfolk clean the floors.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 09:53am

  94. Posted by i'm nobody at 09/09/2008 @ 09:34am "A Buddhist that practices abstinence won't get pregnant,either."

    I was obviously responding to crabwalk's post which asked the questions which was more powerful, Jesus or a condom. (the quote was there so as to avoid any confusion.)

    Do not try to change my response to suit your desires. Obviously, anyone who has the self-control to practice abstinence will not get pregnant.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:53am

  95. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 09:34am "ms. palin is the one who offers them up as props in her blind ambitions."

    So says you. I disagree. Let's leave it at that since it appears we will never see eye to eye on this matter.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:55am

  96. Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:47am

    So then you condone abstinence only education, and leave those who "do it" anyways to the whims of biological chance -- and of course, since abortion should be outlawed in this mindset, the child is doubly "screwed" and must either A) keep a child she cannot possible properly care for or B) deal with the trauma of giving a child up.

    Doesn't it make more sense to start with abstinence and educate more fully from there (like birth control, STD ed, etc) ... or is directed ignorance defensible in your world?

    Posted by leftofcenter at 09/09/2008 @ 09:55am

  97. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 09:51am "what's wrong with sex? it's fun."

    Of course it is. If it weren't, men would never procreate. ;)

    But telling a teenager girl that using a condom is safe, and that she won't get pregant in not true.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:00am

  98. jayne-One cannot run as a family values candidate,like Palin and many do,unless you are saying that your values are better than others values,otherwise running as a family values candidate would make no sense.It is the GOPs fault that they made that an issue and not other peoples fault for looking at their families.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 09/09/2008 @ 10:03am

  99. He created Adam first in his image and then created Eve so that man might not be alone.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:37am

    and they had sex! and it was fun.

    if god didn't want us to have sex, why did it put all those nerve endings down there?

    i mean god's god. it could have just given us the ability to asexual send off a kid like paramecium do.

    and if adam was made in god's image, that means god has a penis.

    does god have sex? with whom?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:03am

  100. Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:53am

    "Obviously, anyone who has the self-control to practice abstinence will not get pregnant."

    It's equally true that people that masturbate don't get pregnant - or sexually transmitted diseases. Yet, I never hear of masturbation-only education.

    Further, the problem is that abstinence-only education doesn't work. Crabwalk was making that point but got a little over-exuberant because of his/her problems with the hypocrisy of many people claiming to be Christian. But, that point is valid.

    Posted by srjenkins at 09/09/2008 @ 10:06am

  101. Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:55am

    i won't attack her kids. it's not there fault their mother is slime.

    in fact, ms. palin attacks her kids more than i ever will.

    sends them off to war, doesn't stress the importance of birth control.....

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:06am

  102. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 09:53am "god is an "it". god is a "he" in religious texts because men write them while the ladyfolk clean the floors."

    Christians don't refer to God as "it". And we capitalize the word God to show reverence to Him. You asked why "fundies" refer to God in the masculine form (I can only assume you think most Christians are fundies) and I answered.

    I'd also like you to note how many women are exahalted in the Bible. Mary, Ruth, Mary Magdalene, etc, etc.

    BTW, I don't believe God has a gender the way we define gender. "He created them in His image, both male and female." However, that said, we call Him Father and so we use the male pronouns. Is that simple enough for you?

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:08am

  103. If it weren't, men would never procreate. ;)

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:00am

    damn!

    i needed a woman to help me.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:08am

  104. (I can only assume you think most Christians are fundies)

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:08am

    never assume.

    i could care less which path people choose to find god.

    i need no church for god is me.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:09am

  105. Just in .. "Caribou Barbie" charges state of AK per diem while living at home.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26616212/

    Posted by leftofcenter at 09/09/2008 @ 10:10am

  106. Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 09:41am

    But what I'm asking you is, if her PUBLIC policy is to support abstinence-only sex education...

    which has both in studies shown to be a demonstrable failure AND in her own personal life (aka her daughter) shown to be a failure...

    is it "okay" to mention that she is supporting a policy that her own daughter has shown (as well as research) to be wrong????

    Posted by Maskdelta at 09/09/2008 @ 10:11am

  107. However, that said, we call Him Father and so we use the male pronouns. Is that simple enough for you?

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:08am

    i'll stick with "it".

    my dad (pbuh) lives in ireland.

    god is the rain.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:11am

  108. Posted by srjenkins at 09/09/2008 @ 10:06am |

    "Masturbation-only" education ... "What a jerk"

    Ha-ha...thank you folks, I'll be here till Thursday.

    Posted by leftofcenter at 09/09/2008 @ 10:12am

  109. Just in .. "Caribou Barbie" charges state of AK per diem while living at home.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26616212/

    Posted by leftofcenter at 09/09/2008 @ 10:10am

    facts mean nothing.

    ms. palin is about imagery.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:12am

  110. Masturbation-only" education ... "What a jerk"

    Posted by leftofcenter at 09/09/2008 @ 10:12am

    damn, srj. he beat me to it.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:13am

  111. leftofcenter- Maybe you and I are misuderstanding "abstinence only" education. I say that calling condom use Safe Sex is dangerous and misleading. I support telling kids that the only 100% form of birth control is Abstinence.

    Sex education should still involve warning kids about the dangers of STDs and pregancy, but telling them it's okay to engage in sex "as long as you use protection" is reckless.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:16am

  112. Posted by i'm nobody at 09/09/2008 @ 10:03am "One cannot run as a family values candidate,like Palin and many do,unless you are saying that your values are better than others values,otherwise running as a family values candidate would make no sense."

    I asked for a quote nobody. When did Palin or the GOP say she was running as a "family values" candidate? She may have said it. That's why I asked you for a source. I'm a very busy working mom myself, and I don't watch every news program.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:19am

  113. Sex education should still involve warning kids about the dangers of STDs and pregancy, but telling them it's okay to engage in sex "as long as you use protection" is reckless.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:16am

    no, it's better to send them off to war.

    my mom (pbuh) always said, "don't be an idiot and get someone pregnant."

    she knew that sex was fun and that i would be an idiot not to try it.

    hey, what about a married couple that doesn't want kids.

    what should they do? what happens if they have no idea about birth control 'cause they've only been taught to abstain?

    that's not fair.

    sex is fun.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:22am

  114. I'm a very busy working mom myself, and I don't watch every news program.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:19am

    wow. you should be vice president.

    you are being manipulated.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:24am

  115. no, you are being used.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:24am

  116. Posted by srjenkins at 09/09/2008 @ 10:06am "It's equally true that people that masturbate don't get pregnant - or sexually transmitted diseases. Yet, I never hear of masturbation-only education."

    :D I work with middle and high school kids. You try standing in front of 25 to 30 of them and talk about masterbating.

    We all learn about that ourselves as our bodies develop. I've never known anyone who had to be taught how to masterbate. It's trial and error, so to speak. ;)

    My sex ed class did cover masterbation as a valid form of sexual exploration, by the way.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:25am

  117. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:03am "and if adam was made in god's image, that means god has a penis. "

    Pls see my previous post at 09/09/2008 @ 10:08am.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:29am

  118. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:08am "damn! i needed a woman to help me."

    If you're planning on procreating, then yes ;)

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:30am

  119. Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:16am

    I don't think saying "safe sex" equates necessarily to "go have sex" ... condoms (from both a STD and pregnancy perspective) are indeed safer than unprotected sex. Are we arguing about semantics here? I think the point is that Palin is a "strict" abstinence-only mindset .. which obviously didn't work out so well at home. One must wonder if Bristol knew about birth control options, or was this a form of parental neglect rooted in religious misguidance.

    Posted by leftofcenter at 09/09/2008 @ 10:33am

  120. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:22am "hey, what about a married couple that doesn't want kids.

    what should they do? what happens if they have no idea about birth control 'cause they've only been taught to abstain?"

    Have you ever heard of going to a doctor? I'm pretty sure they're up to date on all the new forms of birth control. If a married couple doesn't want to have kids and use their chosen forms of birth control, but get pregnant anyway, they still have the option of giving the child to a couple who does want children but can't have their own.

    And frosty-Pls enlighten me...how exactly am I being manipulated and used?

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:39am

  121. One must wonder if Bristol knew about birth control options, or was this a form of parental neglect rooted in religious misguidance.

    Posted by leftofcenter at 09/09/2008 @ 10:33am

    naw,

    sex without a condom is more fun.

    a couple of beers and people can get pretty dumb.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:39am

  122. jayne-The family values thing was part of her campaign up in Alaska,but,for obvious reasons,they aren't pushing that as part of her VP run.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 09/09/2008 @ 10:39am

  123. jayne-The GOP has stated that it is the family values party.That's part of the image they try and project.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 09/09/2008 @ 10:43am

  124. And frosty-Pls enlighten me...how exactly am I being manipulated and used?

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:39am

    ms. palin is being used.

    if mccain wins she will be relegated to "firstish lady" or maybe "drill czar",

    but she will do nothing.

    it's all about the imagery of the FATHERLY type protecting the FAMILY VALUES sportsmom.

    father protects family.

    that imagery goes down deep, deep.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:44am

  125. If a married couple doesn't want to have kids and use their chosen forms of birth control, but get pregnant anyway, they still have the option of giving the child to a couple who does want children but can't have their own.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:39am

    can't anybody do that?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:45am

  126. 142 posts here about this distraction.

    64 posts about the near collapse of world finance.

    hmmmm.

    carry on.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:46am

  127. "I don't think saying "safe sex" equates necessarily to "go have sex"

    It doesn't have to. Calling it "safe" is the misnomer, IMO.

    "condoms (from both a STD and pregnancy perspective) are indeed safer than unprotected sex."

    Ah, safer, yes. Teens believe themselves to be invincible and most will try sex given a safer alternative. I believe it should be stressed to them that abstinence is the safest way. Not "Well, here're some condoms since we know you're gonna do it anyway".

    "was this a form of parental neglect rooted in religious misguidance"

    Not neglect or misguidance, a mistake on the child's part. We all make mistakes and hopefully, learn from them. Do you believe that Bristol was so sheltered that she didn't know what a condom was? Perhaps, like me, she used condoms and still became pregnant.

    Thoughts to ponder...(or not, as it's none of our business) For a group who wants government out of the bedroom when it comes to issues like gay marriage and abortion, everyone is quick to nose into Bristol's bedroom. Hmmmm.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 11:01am

  128. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:45am "can't anybody do that?"

    Yes, they can. Which is why I was so suprised you asked the question to begin with. But I'm trying to help you so I complied. ;)

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 11:04am

  129. jayne-Looking at mom's beliefs is not the same thing as looking into the daughters bedroom.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 09/09/2008 @ 11:04am

  130. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:44am OK, that's why this statement: "wow. you should be vice president. you are being manipulated.Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:24am" needed clarification.

    "but she will do nothing"

    So says you. We'll see after the election ;)

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 11:08am

  131. i'm nobody-I'm not going to argue this point with you over and over again. IMO, minor children of candidates should be off-limits...Period...whether that child is pregnant, had an abortion, is gay, is straight, or is purple.

    I know you think she's "fair game". I'm letting that go. The End.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 11:13am

  132. jayne-I agree that children should be off limits and find it to be quite sad that the GOP made them on limits with their family values thing.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 09/09/2008 @ 11:15am

  133. Posted by i'm nobody at 09/09/2008 @ 11:15am "jayne-I agree that children should be off limits and find it to be quite sad that the GOP made them on limits with their family values thing."

    I see you think you've found a loop-hole to justify what you do. Sadly, that doesn't excuse you. Poor taste is poor taste, no matter what excuse you make for it.

    The "he did it first" defense doesn't even work in kindergarten.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 11:19am

  134. I'm signing off everyone. It's been fun :) Back to work now, though...

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 11:23am

  135. jayne-I'm not doing the he did it first thing nor have I found any loop hole.I made a simple statement where I put the blame where it belongs..When you are pushing an abstinence only philosophy and have an unwed pregnant teenage daughter then it is only natural that people will mention the daughter when discussing the pro and cons of the beliefs that are being expressed by her mom.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 09/09/2008 @ 11:24am

  136. However, that said, we call Him Father and so we use the male pronouns. Is that simple enough for you?

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 10:08am

    Has he said anything on the topic in, say...the last 2000yrs. or so?

    It is true that only abstinance is 100%.

    But, it is definately NOT true, that teaching abstinance keeps teenagers from having sex.

    What do you suppose the data is on teenagers having sex before they graduate?

    You might want to check on that, being as how abstinance has, traditionally been the way we teach our kids.

    Yoy may have a good idea, but virtually no teens are listening, so lets give them alternatives.

    Eric

    Posted by Malcontent at 09/09/2008 @ 11:25am

  137. "can't anybody do that?"

    Yes, they can.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 11:04am

    so, do you think it would be a good idea for say, a seventeen year old woman, to give up her child for adoption, especially if the "father" (fellow fornicator, better said) seems like a total jerk?

    just curious.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 11:26am

  138. I find interesting that people say that it's okay for a politician to push a particular philosophy of child rearing,like abstinence only,but then say you aren't allowed to look at their family to see if their philosophy worked out for them.Had the philosophy worked then,I suspect,that they would be saying-look at Palin's family.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 09/09/2008 @ 11:41am

  139. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 11:26am "do you think it would be a good idea for say, a seventeen year old woman, to give up her child for adoption"

    I believe that is a personal decision. One that is not made lightly and that can only be made my the mother and father of the unborn child. Whether we think it's a "good idea" or not is irrelevant.

    "especially if the "father" (fellow fornicator, better said) seems like a total jerk?"

    I wasn't aware that you knew so much about Levi. YOU seem a bit judgemental to me.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 12:18pm

  140. Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 11:01am |

    I think the point is that it is the GOP that rules the bedroom "fair game" politically (abortion, sex, marriage, gays, etc .... how much was spent on Clinton's blow-job?)

    Yet when it comes to one of their own and we call them on it, we are being unfair and hypocritical.

    The good old double standard

    Posted by leftofcenter at 09/09/2008 @ 12:24pm

  141. Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 11:01am

    Apparently jayne has deep intimate knowledge of Bristol Palin that we didn't....i.e. "maybe she used a condom and got pregnant anyway".

    But what's interesting is, aside from jayne being an obvious right-winger with her continuing support of a PROVEN failed sex education method (abstinence only), is her attempt at DEFENDING the Palins by including the possibility that they didn't even TRULY support what they said they support.

    I mean, if Sarah Palin TRULY supports only abstinence only education...but "maybe Bristol used a condom and it didn't work"....

    that would mean that either Sarah and Todd Palin had little influence on their daughter (which goes against the paradigm of "How great parents they are")....or they were engaged in a DOUBLE STANDARD, taking a public political stance on abstinence-only...

    while still giving THEIR daughter birth control!

    And of course, if any (like me) points out the flaws and failures of Sarah Palin's POLITICAL stance on sex ed, with the example of her own daughter...we're "attacking the children!!!!"

    When we are not...Bristol isn't the point, she's just the result. Sarah Palin is the point.

    Posted by Maskdelta at 09/09/2008 @ 12:26pm

  142. Posted by Malcontent at 09/09/2008 @ 11:25am

    I did some research and found this: "Researchers say the recent trends in sexual activity and contraceptive use are the result of a confluence of factors, including greater emphasis on abstinence, more conservative attitudes about sex, fear of AIDS, the popularity of the long-lasting methods, such as the contraceptive implant (Norplant®) and the injectable (Depo Provera®), and even the economy."

    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/01/5/gr010506.html

    This sounds to me like emphasizing abstinence first has helped.

    My "conservative attitude" on sex doesn't completely exclude contraception use, but I believe we don't emphasize enough that those methods aren't 100% effective.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 12:33pm

  143. Posted by leftofcenter at 09/09/2008 @ 12:24pm "how much was spent on Clinton's blow-job"

    Oh, but that wasn't in his bedroom, that was in his office, while at work, on our dime.

    "The good old double standard"

    Exactly. If you don't want others to do it, then don't do it yourself. Rise above. Be the better person.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 12:38pm

  144. Posted by Maskdelta at 09/09/2008 @ 12:26pm "that would mean that either Sarah and Todd Palin had little influence on their daughter"

    I suppose as a teenager you listened to everything your parents told you. You didn't? I guess your parents had "little influence" on you.

    Maybe you haven't read my posts thoroughly. I have not supported "abstinence only" sex ed. I support abstinence EMPHASIS. As in, convince teens that condoms are NOT 100% effective and that abstinence is the only 100% effective form of birth control.

    Perhaps, because of her daughter, Mrs. Palin will rethink her stance on abstinence ONLY and decide to EMPHASIZE it instead. I hope she does. That said, Bristol still shouldn't be forced to endure the press pointing out her mistakes as a way to tear down her mother.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 12:50pm

  145. Family is "off limits"...

    [Thousands spent on children's flights In separate filings, the state was billed about $25,000 for Palin's daughters' expenses and $19,000 for her husband, Todd Palin.

    Flights topped the list for the most expensive items, and the daughter whose bill was the highest was Piper, 7, whose flights cost nearly $11,000, while Willow, 14, claimed about $6,000 and Bristol, 17, accounted for about $3,400.

    One event was in New York City in October 2007, when Bristol accompanied the governor to Newsweek's third annual Women and Leadership Conference, toured the New York Stock Exchange, and met local officials and business executives. The state paid for three nights in a $707-a-day hotel room. Garnero said the governor's office has the authority to approve hotel stays above $300.

    ]

    so, her family can appear on stage, they can be part of a story in People, they can be used to show how her dedication to Pro-Life views are consistent, her kids can travel with her at cost to the taxpayer...

    but, we are not allowed to discuss how Palins views on sex education worked in the real world?

    Jayne, Levi had sex with an teenager and got her knocked up, that would be examples 2-4 in "What is a jerk?"

    -----

    so, enlighten us haters, what is Palins stance on Russias invasion of Georgia?

    What is her philosophy on the Federal Reserve?

    did she think Saddam Hussein had wmd's? Did she think Saddam and AQ were linked?

    what is her stance on missile defense in Poland?

    do you know the enswers to any of these questions, or can you point me to her website which will have federal and international policy statements?

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 1:32pm

  146. Remember Jayne, Sarah Palin said SHE DOES NOT KNOW WHAT A VICE PRESIDENT DOES.

    Her words, not the words of the evil leftist media (GE, VIACOM, Cear Channel), or mine. she admitted she is ignorant of the job duties for which she has been picked. You know almost nothing about her positions on federal and international issues (unless you have been holding something back from the McCain campaign)... but you support her.

    Why?

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 1:37pm

  147. How US voters get to make a choice for their leaders is grotesque. The ruling-class of corporate executives, Wall Streeters, wealthy individuals, have put together media control with ballot control in such a way that our pseudo-democratic processes are forms without content. Our ruling-class is so much cleverer than the Chinese or Russian, for example, that we can claim to have two parties. The truth is that on the major issues, war and peace, trade policies, unionization, fiscal and monetary policy, we have just one party with a limited bandwidth of opinion. We have an almost perfect fascism: an imperial, militarized state that tries to project power all over the world. The problem for our rulers is they have, through their globalism, created increasing competition for resources, a competition they cannot overcome with the limitations of military power to combat terrorism and to check other nuclear competitors. Thus, our people, naive US citizens, still persuaded that this is a government of the people, suffer increasingly because their rulers exploit them just as much as they would like to exploit peoples of foreign lands.

    Those US citizens who are aware of what is the nature of their government do not have the courage to break with the major political parties. They adhere to the establishment, trying to make the best of whom they are offered as figurehead politicians.

    Posted by goedel at 09/09/2008 @ 1:44pm

  148. If I have read your posts correctly Jayne, you are saying it is the libs that want guvt in the bedroom?

    Apologies to Steve Martin...

    Exxxcccuuuse Me!

    ah, no. It is the Party of Family Values (families off limits though!) that has been telling us for decades who we can have sex with and what orifi we are allowed to use. What other reason is there for the Defense of Marriage Act and anti-sodomy laws passed by conservative states?

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 1:46pm

  149. )... but you support her.

    Why?

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 1:37pm

    It's all about jeebus, NOT rational thought.

    Quit trying to reason with superstitious people. The logic has been bred out of them.

    Posted by Malcontent at 09/09/2008 @ 1:50pm

  150. Yes, I know billy signed the DMA.

    I also remember Bush was going to restore credibility to the WH.

    Buwhahahaha.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 1:52pm

  151. Jeebus did not help Homer run a succesful native gaming venue, why should I trust him/her/it?

    but, I will take a lick off'n the frog!

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 2:07pm

  152. gay in nature: In my 7:38pm post I eluded to the fact that the whole earth is out of wack because of our choice of independence from God. I suppose it was not the strongest argument 'look at nature'. When we know truth we see the delusion for what it is, that is what the Holy Spirit was sent to do. 'He (Jesus word not mine) will lead you into all truth and the truth shall set you free.' I am not yet free from the struggle, but I see the delusion clearly.

    Jesus vs a condom. Apples and oranges. Abstinence is not mainstream because we have not led our kids to be positively pressuring each other to practice abstinence.

    I'd write more, but I gotta go rest. Chemo takes it out of ya. Kids school activities tonight/ homework etc take predince. (sp)

    Posted by PeterJ at 09/09/2008 @ 2:37pm

  153. "Chemo takes it out of ya. "

    Posted by PeterJ at 09/09/2008 @ 2:37pm

    Using sorcery to thwart god's will?!?

    Blasphemer!!

    Posted by Malcontent at 09/09/2008 @ 3:07pm

  154. Posted by Malcontent at 09/09/2008 @ 3:07pm

    As a rational person, I just HAD to ridicule your delusions.

    As a human, I feel for your pain and your delusions. I'm just trying to get to the rationalizations of what parts of science are acceptable to you; Those that keep you from dying and testing your faith.

    Vs. those that don't effect you personally and therefore can be disregarded, or even denied to others.

    Posted by Malcontent at 09/09/2008 @ 3:12pm

  155. As a Jew, I'm always amazed at my Jewish friends who support the Republicans. They do so under the belief that the Republicans are more supportive of Israel. You have to support Israel at all costs, even if it means electing someone that is very bad for American democracy, such as Bush or McCain. It is sort of screw America, support Israel. These people are so blinded by their faith and Jewishness that they have lost all sense of reason. As America crumbles toward a Christian fascist theocracy, they only see the world through their narrow Zionist lens.

    Posted by kcrost at 09/09/2008 @ 5:52pm

  156. Malcontent. I said before not to label me. YOu don't know jack!!! God heals in many ways, medicine, miracles, natural remidies. Don't even get over on yourself regarding my cancer. I have prayed for people and seen them healed. I have also seen others pray and people recieved healing from Jesus. I have also seen the advance of medicine and the great things it has done to help us. If you check your history it was a couple of guys in the way past that were seeking God and got things started with modern medicine.

    I just saw your other post.

    God is life. Jesus demonstrated that. It tests my faith very much to take chemo. Choices are hard to make when faced with a treatable, not yet curable disease. I trust the Spirit in me to guide me. If you haven't given yourself to God and aren't allowing Jesus to guide you then you will never know and understand how my life works.

    What parts of science do you refer to that I would deny others? Please be specific.

    Posted by PeterJ at 09/09/2008 @ 6:09pm

  157. What parts of science do you refer to that I would deny others? Please be specific.

    Posted by PeterJ at 09/09/2008 @ 6:09pm

    How old is the earth?

    What is the origin of man?

    Why do our DNA suggest we descended from "lower" creatures?

    Who/what makes sex 'dirty' not natural?

    Why did you ignore frosty's examples of natural homosexuality? You used the "god just makes it look that way" excuse. Just like some folks do with fossils.

    Short of abstinence, which statistically, virtually nobody does, how do you prevent disease, pregnancy?

    Contrast biblical creation (adams 'rib') with the fact that we all are conceived female and some transition to male. (not to mention all that are born, somewhere in between. What does god say about them?)

    Explain how consciousness is NOT in your brain and how fetuses w/o fully formed frontal lobes are conscious.

    In all seriousness, cancer is no laughing matter. Although I consider you HUGELY misinformed and lost in a world of delusion. (Which, sadly you would suck us all into), I regret using your illness to make a point. Sorry.

    But, please explain how YOUR illness is not god's will, but others, who cannot avail themselves of modern medicine are just the recipients of a "loving" god's "will".

    Explain, without using nebulous ideas like your "soul", how removing your cancer and removing an undeveloped fetus, are medically different and should be legal differentiated.

    Posted by Malcontent at 09/09/2008 @ 6:52pm

  158. "YOu don't know jack!"

    Nope. Never met him either.

    Posted by Malcontent at 09/09/2008 @ 6:53pm

  159. QUEEN ESTHER?!

    jesus, I got a sudden flashback to that amazing scene from "Recount" where Laura Dern does an excellent rendering of Katherine Harris' astonishingly 'deer in the Jayzuz headlights' moment

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59t2CDA2JEY

    Which is the SAME person I suddenly recalled when I stared in horror at Palin's nomination.

    I knew Alaska would be the 'big state' (Russia, oil, northwest passage, global warming) for this election.

    but omg.

    that's uncanny.

    - Spread Love...

    BlueBerry Pick'n ThisCanadian com " ... tolerance of intolerance is cowardice... " ~ Ayaan Hirsi Ali. "We, two, form a Multitude" ~ Ovid." "True Pacifism is not unrealistic submission to an Evil power...it is rather a courageous confrontation with Evil by the Power of Love, in the faith that it is better to be the recipient of violence than the inflicter of it, since the latter only multiplies the existence of violence & bitterness in the Universe, while the former may develop a sense of shame in the opponent, & thereby bring about a transformation & change of Heart." - MLK "Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced" "Do no harm"

    Posted by ThisCanadian at 09/09/2008 @ 7:06pm

  160. Saint Sarah!

    She' on a Mission from God®.

    Posted by charcoal at 09/09/2008 @ 7:13pm

  161. Koch: Palin 'Scares the Hell Out of Me'

    By Keith B. Richburg NEW YORK -- This city's infamously independent-minded former mayor, Edward I. Koch, today said he was supporting Barack Obama for president and would be out campaigning for the Democratic ticket, most likely in key swing states.

    Koch said that while both Obama and McCain understand the need to support Israel and oppose Islamic terrorism, he concluded, "the country is safer in the hands of Barack Obama." Koch, in a statement, said protecting the United States also means "defending the public with respect to their civil rights, civil liberties and other needs," including gay rights and abortion rights.

    In a telephone interview, Koch made clear that one reason for his support for his Obama was the addition of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin to the Republican ticket. "She scares the hell out of me," Koch said. "She wanted to censor books at the local library" in Wasilla, Alaska, where she was mayor, Koch said. Palin asked the librarian who refused the censorship request to resign but later relented and the librarian kept her job.

    Four years ago, Koch campaigned for Bush's reelection in a half dozen states, including key swing states Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio and Michigan.

    Koch said he is ready to do the same for Obama this year. "They asked me to, and I told them I would," Koch said. "I'll do whatever they want me to do."

    Koch's support could boost Obama with Jewish voters particularly in Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio and Michigan.

    Koch said he is ready to do the same for Obama this year. "They asked me to, and I told them I would," Koch said. "I'll do whatever they want me to do."

    Koch today predicted Obama "will get the Jewish community's vote overwhelmingly."

    Posted by Metteyya at 09/09/2008 @ 7:21pm

  162. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/01/5/gr010506.html

    That link say teen pregnancy dropped 12% from 91-96. (the clinton years?)

    It says nothing about sex alone. Your post refers to many forms of birth control as factors in this change. Have you switched arguments? Abstinence was only one of the things mentioned.

    Not "Well, here're some condoms since we know you're gonna do it anyway".

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 11:01am

    Are you saying they aren't gonna do it anyway? 54 out of 1000 definitively did, according to your link. Pretty sure many others managed to avoid pregnancy, if only by luck. Some of us are working to eliminate luck as a factor, by using education. Not by narrowing down all the facts and options to the dogma we grew up with.

    Eric

    Posted by Malcontent at 09/09/2008 @ 7:33pm

  163. The main problem with the analogy is that as concerns our modern Potus, Palin is the understudy not the lead role. I don't think it can be a good thing for McCain, when his understudy is what is drawing the crowd.

    Posted by Alamantra at 09/09/2008 @ 7:36pm

  164. We need to stop talking about Palin and refocus on our candidates, their policies, and why people should vote for them in November-- and that means congressional candidates as well as the presidency. Gov. Palin is an intelligent, ambitious woman from the last frontier state we have-- yep, that includes guns and God and shooting big game. She had the good fortune to benefit from John McCain's impetuous, gut-level decision-making and his need for someone to rev up the ticket. Her positions are in-line with the right flank of the Republican Party, and tell us that John McCain realized he had to get conservative Christians behind him or he had no chance of winning. Some maverick. The media hullabaloo was an extra incentive-- dampened Obama's post-convention bounce and has given ALL of us plenty of red meat to devour. The left is caught up in a political circus that gives our enemies plenty of "angry, hate-filled lefties" talking points when we should be focusing on policy positions. I don't care if she's Queen Esther or Annie Oakley to the Fundamentalists. Let's get back to the real campaign-- telling the rather small number of undecided voters why they should vote Democratic this year.

    Posted by kali43 at 09/09/2008 @ 7:57pm

  165. "Nothing is so sad and pitiful as bitter frustrated leftist extremism watching Obamanation's campaign drop like a rock in the polls because of a "vetted""

    DOH! the pols right now in the weeks before or after the conventions are only from registered voters mostly with land lines. Young people and the general public have not been represented in the polls right now. When they switch to true random calling, Obama will jump ahead. SORRY!

    Posted by mjimih at 09/09/2008 @ 8:14pm

  166. What we need to learn from this whole chirade is that we need to stop wasting our time responding "off-air" to ourselves whom we agree with---disputing "in-the-virtual-air" with opponents who likely will not read our words. We need to get up off our computer-seats and get out on the streets and spread our insights and our important comments with those that matter...

    Those who truly disagree with us and will do all they can to elect McCain/Pain...er...I meant, Palin. -kevin briggs, phoeniz, az.

    Posted by brikesmiley at 09/09/2008 @ 8:32pm

  167. What a stupid piece. Minor distinction between Palin and Queen Esther. The latter was something of a liberator of an oppressed people and the other is an America-hating tool, a feminist manque. As for the Jews slaughtering the Persians, as it were, it usually happens when an oppressed people rebel. So what's the point.

    As I said, a stupid piece, and unnecessary.

    Posted by senft at 09/09/2008 @ 8:56pm

  168. Wow. It has taken me almost 45 minutes to read this incredible banter. Couple things...

    Jayne - God I hope you are not shoving your religious based views of the world down the throats of your captive student audience. As educators, it is our JOB to address every side of issues and allow the students to make their own decisions with that information. Yes, I know 'decisions' is a dirty word for you Repubs, but that's how our wonderful country works under God. That is exactly what is wrong with allowing schools to "focus" - or what ever your code word was - on one particular method in sex ed or any other subject. Let's let the students use some of their own judgement and make these life decisions with all the information they need to do so.

    Here in Florida (a swinging state!) we just updated our science benchmarks to include the other dirty word. Yup you guessed it "Evil-ution." Much to the chagrine of the righties who think we should teach the "theory of creatism" along side it. Why not throw in the Hindu theory (the oldest practiced religion on earth) of the Brahma or the universal sound of Om?

    Why do the religious right feel as though they ARE right? Is that what that term really means?

    And yes, having vented to Jayne, now let's discuss the real issues at hand and not the misguided spew we get from campaign talking points.

    Posted by peacelover at 09/09/2008 @ 9:52pm

  169. I wasn't aware that you knew so much about Levi. YOU seem a bit judgemental to me.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/09/2008 @ 12:18pm

    oh, just checking.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 9:56pm

  170. Chemo takes it out of ya.

    Posted by PeterJ at 09/09/2008 @ 2:37pm

    let's hope so.

    be safe, brother pete.

    be strong, brother pete.

    remember, your family needs you more than god does.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/09/2008 @ 10:02pm

  171. Agreed, the kids are off limits. But first we have to establish Trig's true parentage. After all, it's Sarah Palin's veracity that's being questioned. Her 20 hour odyssey from Texas to rural Alaska to "give birth" certainly calls her judgement into question, unless she was trying to lose the child; in which case doing everything contrary to current medical opinion makes perfect sense. Or she wanted to be back in rural Alaska in time for Bristol's delivery.

    I think Bristol is pregnant with grandchild number two. Abstinence only related myth: nursing mothers can't get pregnant.

    Are the children and grandchildren off-limits? Yes, but the lying candidate is not. Teenagers making mistakes is expected. After all, that's why most of the world doesn't execute them. Their brains aren't finished developing. A parent protecting their child is expected. Palin has done the unexpected.

    Loved those Convention clips of Levi kissing his brother-in-law. Looked more fatherly to me.

    We have to make sure Janet Reno's not involved. I'm sure Chelsea Clinton can offer Bristol Palin some tips on handling mean-spirited politicians and pundits.

    The pictures of Piper licking her hand and then plastering Trig's hair down were priceless. Has Piper been taught to wash her hands after potty?

    If some off-white urban mother left a six month old "special needs" child in the care of a seven-year old; why quicker than you could say "Terri Schiavo" the Republicans would be talking foster homes and prison time.

    Is Jon Stewart the only one who can effectively illustrate Republican flip=flops and lies?

    Posted by georgepweb at 09/09/2008 @ 10:29pm

  172. >> The parallels are clear. Esther was selected queen in a beauty contest; Palin was runner-up in the Miss Alaska pageant.

    Here's another striking parallel. Jesus died on the cross. I once ate a hot-cross bun.

    I mean, really, it is time to move on and get back to the job at hand. Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights.

    If you want your man to win, do something about it.

    Posted by kingharvest at 09/09/2008 @ 11:00pm

  173. The name McCain literally means "Son of Cain." I know Cain was the son of Adam and Eve who brought us original sin and that Cain slew his brother Abel. Perhaps you Bible experts can answer this. Is Son of Cain the name of The Beast?

    Posted by johnsox at 09/09/2008 @ 11:36pm

  174. Posted by RedRiver_. at 09/08/2008 @ 10:12pm | ignore this person

    Again you missed the point. If this were where Obama was born instead of Hawaii (which is still subtly ridiculed) McCain would've used it. Dems actually haven't used petty stuff like this to keep McCain off the ballot. This was an independent question that I posted as a joke. Did I say a single word anywhere against the soldiers? You jack-offs are the ones abusing the soldiers. McCain doesn't even support vets. Who got the soldiers at Walter Reed (not the middle school) help when it started falling on their heads? Obama.

    STOP PLAYING THESE UN-AMERICAN GAMES YOU ABSOLUTE ASSHOLE!!!!

    Posted by CanWeQuestionPalin? at 09/10/2008 @ 01:26am

  175. Thank you...and goodnight.

    Posted by CanWeQuestionPalin? at 09/10/2008 @ 01:28am

  176. I didn't expect that the antichrist would appear wearing a skirt.

    Posted by macdon1 at 09/10/2008 @ 01:44am

  177. I knew someone besides me would see the resemblance to the Kathrine Harris character in Recount! And it was true, the moment I saw her, and heard her speak, it was Laura Durn all over again!

    Anyway back to how we are going to kick some Republican butt..........

    Posted by AuntBec at 09/10/2008 @ 03:04am

  178. How convenient that we rarely hear Jesus' most challenging words quoted such as: "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God." Or forgive 70x7 times, or love your neighbor.

    Let truth be revealed and let us wipe the veil of delusion so as to see and respond to it.

    Posted by Jian at 09/10/2008 @ 08:26am

  179. There is another possibility. What if the Bible is not the literal word of God? It might explain all of the contradictions and inconsistancies. It would also allow us to understand that it is clearly written, by human beings, from the perspective of the Jewish people. The Persian Empire was well known for having a very liberal policy for that time of allowing conquered peoples to retain and practice their own cultures and religions. Would it be too hard to give Persians their due? It might require a new way of understanding Christianity beyond the simplistic, Sunday school mentality of the fundamentalists.

    Posted by alanedmonson at 09/10/2008 @ 11:22am

  180. There is another possibility. What if the Bible is not the literal word of God? It might explain all of the contradictions and inconsistancies. It would also allow us to understand that it is clearly written, by human beings, from the perspective of the Jewish people. The Persian Empire was well known for having a very liberal policy for that time of allowing conquered peoples to retain and practice their own cultures and religions. Would it be too hard to give Persians their due? It might require a new way of understanding Christianity beyond the simplistic, Sunday school mentality of the fundamentalists.

    Posted by alanedmonson at 09/10/2008 @ 11:22am

  181. Never try to confuse conservatives with facts that do not affirm their opinions. Don't ever tell them they are wrong since they are right, and you are not, so don't bring up stubborn facts.

    Sarah is a typical small town provincial redneck. She will never be anything else. She has some public speaking skills gained in beauty queen contests which require some coherent speech production to get anywhere. Just having large breasts, pleasing face and nice fundament will not get you chosen outside of your tiny home town.

    Posted by kalpal at 09/10/2008 @ 12:03pm

  182. Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 1:37pm "You know almost nothing about her ...but you support her. Why?"

    I support McCain and so I support his choice for VP. Were there others I might have liked him to choose? Certainly, but I can't do anything about that now. Rarely (if ever) in politics will you find a candidate which share every single one of your personal views on every issue. You just have to pick the one that is closest to your views on the most issues or the issues most important to you. That's why I've chosen to support McCain.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/10/2008 @ 12:26pm

  183. Posted by crabwalk at 09/09/2008 @ 1:46pm "If I have read your posts correctly Jayne, you are saying it is the libs that want guvt in the bedroom?"

    Nope. I was saying that for a party who doesn't want govt in the bedroom, the democrats are mighty interested in Bristol and whether or not she practiced "safe sex". I hope that is clear now.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/10/2008 @ 12:28pm

  184. Posted by Malcontent at 09/09/2008 @ 1:50pm "It's all about jeebus, NOT rational thought. Quit trying to reason with superstitious people. The logic has been bred out of them."

    Trying to answer for others now? Please see my previous post where I actually answered crabwalk's question myself.

    If you must know, I'm a very analytical person, some say too much so. I have a bachelor's in computer engineering. As you don't know anything about me or my personal faith, please refrain from making blanket judgements as they only serve to make you appear ignorant and prejudiced.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/10/2008 @ 12:33pm

  185. another lost soul..........

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/10/2008 @ 12:42pm

  186. Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/10/2008 @ 12:33pm

    how about you, socialist?

    how does your fannie feel today?

    do you know who phil gramm is?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/10/2008 @ 12:45pm

  187. Posted by Malcontent at 09/09/2008 @ 7:33pm

    If you read my previous post, you'll see that I personally advocate teachers EMPHASIZING that abstinence is the only 100% effective form of birth control...not ONLY abstinence (though hopefully many more teens will choose abstinence once they learn that condoms are NOT 100% effective).

    In regards to Palin and her views, I've stated that using Bristol to make a point against her mother's political views is in poor taste. That does not equate to supporting "abstinence only" sex education.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/10/2008 @ 12:47pm

  188. Posted by peacelover at 09/09/2008 @ 9:52pm "Jayne - God I hope you are not shoving your religious based views of the world down the throats of your captive student audience."

    Nope. I'm not a teacher. I said I work with kids, not that I'm a teacher. Never assume. ;)

    "Let's let the students use some of their own judgement and make these life decisions with all the information they need to do so."

    I agree that they need all the info, but to tout condom usage as safe is irresponsible.

    "Yup you guessed it "Evil-ution." Much to the chagrine of the righties who think we should teach the "theory of creatism" along side it."

    Assuming again. I have never posted anything about evolution here. Don't presume to know my postion on it. I don't take Genesis literally, that God created the world in 6 days. I do believe it's symbolic of the phases of change the earth went through until he made man. The fact that man's genetic code is similar to that of chimps is not any more relevent to me than how close it is to a cow's DNA (pretty close, btw).

    IMO, "creationism" can be mentioned in the class room without making it the Christian God. Creationism theorizes that there was a creator of life. It could be God or Allah or an alien life form. Whatever.

    "Why do the religious right feel as though they ARE right? Is that what that term really means?"

    Don't you think that you're right? Why can't they?

    "And yes, having vented to Jayne, now let's discuss the real issues at hand and not the misguided spew we get from campaign talking points."

    I've only responded to others here. I've never brought up the subject of religion myself.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/10/2008 @ 1:02pm

  189. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/10/2008 @ 12:45pm "how about you, socialist? how does your fannie feel today? do you know who phil gramm is?"

    Babbling incoherently again? You really should check on that. ;)

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/10/2008 @ 1:09pm

  190. Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/10/2008 @ 1:09pm

    o.k.

    how do you feel about u.s. taxpayers "paying" $200 billion for fannie and freddie,

    as well as their debt obligations for $5 trillion?

    do you know who phil gramm is?

    no babble. please respond.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/10/2008 @ 1:20pm

  191. Not Queen Esther again! Please save us from politicians whose role model is the righteous queen. She was also the role model for Katherine Harris and look who that got us.

    Posted by AlixG1 at 09/10/2008 @ 1:37pm

  192. Sorry I can't read your mind frosty (kinda glad I can't ;) and I'm not going to ASSUME I understand a question that's not clear, thanks.

    "how about you, socialist?" Could you rephrase that into a real question please. If not, I'll ignore it and move on.

    "how does your fannie feel today? TRANSLATION: how do you feel about u.s. taxpayers "paying" $200 billion for fannie and freddie, as well as their debt obligations for $5 trillion?"

    Honestly, I need to do some more research on it all, but off the cuff, it makes me angry. Why should the government bail them out for screwing up? There's probably some details I'm missing in the big picture, so I'll hold off making my protest signs for awhile ;)

    "do you know who phil gramm is?"

    I do. Why do you ask?

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/10/2008 @ 1:53pm

  193. As a Jew and Alaskan for more than thirty years, I have to say this story is the typical crap about Sarah Palin that has dominated the national media since she was selected. To give Palin the Reverend Wright treatment given Obamah by Republicans is apparently the best your smear machine can do. There are no examples of her applying her religous beliefs as governor to policy decisions. She is wildly popular in Alaska because she has taken on Exxon, forcing it to begin work on a lease that it has sat on through Democratic and Republican administrations. She has worked with Democrats to raise taxes on the oil industry and has used state money to force the oil companies to propose work on a natural gas pipeline. Exxon wants her out of Alaska into a position she is ill prepared to assume. Trash talk will insure Exxon gets wish. That's why I support Ralph Nader in Alaska.

    Posted by steveconn at 09/10/2008 @ 3:16pm

  194. libshitbrains-

    get some help.

    I hope you have a lot of money

    or find a generous benefactor

    who will sponsor your recovery.

    Posted by brikesmiley at 09/10/2008 @ 6:52pm

  195. "Creationism theorizes that there was a creator of life. It could be God or Allah or an alien life form. Whatever."

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/10/2008 @ 1:02pm

    Do you really want students in science class to be tauaght ANYTHING, where the lesson begins with "could" and ends in "whatever"?

    ...or unicorns or telletubbies. whatever." would be just as factual and informative.

    I know you wouldn't phrase it like that. But most peoples (mine at least) objection isn't the mention of the fact that many believe this. It is the audacity of trying to present it as vetted science in a science curriculum, rather than a cultural lesson in a civics class or something.

    Eric

    Posted by Malcontent at 09/10/2008 @ 8:45pm

  196. After reading the Esther story I can answer my own question, "Why does the rest of the world laugh at us (US)" I travelled to Europe this summer, France, Italy,Holland and Germany and of course the UK following WW2 routes with my teen-age children giving them an insight into the countries where their grandfather and two granduncles fought in the US Army and visited the grave in Normandy where my uncle rests. In the evenings when we spent time in Cafes and Pensions' talking with the locals I was embarrassed at the low esteem in which our country is held. Our WW2 soldiers are held high in esteem but they see todays generation of Americans as whiners and consider our politicians in high office cartoon material. Incidentally, I was surprised to learn that British, Canadian and Polish armies made up the bulk of the D-Day Invasion and this adds to their criticism of our country who claim superiority in all things and give no credit to the rest of the world. We watched replays of the Democratic Convention in the Lobby of our hotel in Brussels and the Belgians there laughed at the circus arrangemnets and made reamarks like Hollywood staged but it was the replays of the Republican Convention which we saw in London the day before our return which drew the most laughs in a Pub in London, with the biggest laugh being given to Rudi Guilliano (?) and his ridiculous presentation. Sara Pallin was referred to as Mrs Beaton (who I discovered was a lady from the last century) who is recognised by the Brits as the epitomy of ridicule. A cross between Martha Stewart and Michael Jackson as one young women described her. Of course I argued but on intellectual standards, compared to theirs, our National Politics is much like the script for Monty Python.

    Posted by Harry G. at 09/11/2008 @ 12:02am

  197. After reading the Esther story I can answer my own question, "Why does the rest of the world laugh at us (US)" I travelled to Europe this summer, France, Italy,Holland and Germany and of course the UK following WW2 routes with my teen-age children giving them an insight into the countries where their grandfather and two granduncles fought in the US Army and visited the grave in Normandy where my uncle rests. In the evenings when we spent time in Cafes and Pensions' talking with the locals I was embarrassed at the low esteem in which our country is held. Our WW2 soldiers are held high in esteem but they see todays generation of Americans as whiners and consider our politicians in high office cartoon material. Incidentally, I was surprised to learn that British, Canadian and Polish armies made up the bulk of the D-Day Invasion and this adds to their criticism of our country who claim superiority in all things and give no credit to the rest of the world. We watched replays of the Democratic Convention in the Lobby of our hotel in Brussels and the Belgians there laughed at the circus arrangemnets and made reamarks like Hollywood staged but it was the replays of the Republican Convention which we saw in London the day before our return which drew the most laughs in a Pub in London, with the biggest laugh being given to Rudi Guilliano (?) and his ridiculous presentation. Sara Pallin was referred to as Mrs Beaton (who I discovered was a lady from the last century) who is recognised by the Brits as the epitomy of ridicule. A cross between Martha Stewart and Michael Jackson as one young women described her. Of course I argued but on intellectual standards, compared to theirs, our National Politics is much like the script for Monty Python.

    Posted by Harry G. at 09/11/2008 @ 12:03am

  198. "The cover of Newsweek this week is a photo of Palin with a shotgun. The Iranians should be worried - and so should the Americans"

    Oooh that Salmon Palin! I guess she still needs to try her hand at frog giggin.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ0Qw8tlt8c

    Palin with a flashliight and a gigger would make a much more wholesome image.

    Posted by LPendzich at 09/11/2008 @ 12:41am

  199. Posted by Malcontent at 09/10/2008 @ 8:45pm "Do you really want students in science class to be tauaght ANYTHING, where the lesson begins with "could" and ends in "whatever"? ...or unicorns or telletubbies. whatever." would be just as factual and informative. I know you wouldn't phrase it like that. But most peoples (mine at least) objection isn't the mention of the fact that many believe this. It is the audacity of trying to present it as vetted science in a science curriculum, rather than a cultural lesson in a civics class or something."

    I actually just realized that I'm talking about what most people call intelligent design rather than "creationism". It is actually a vaild scientific theory supported by reputable scientists. The theory of evolution is nothing more than a theory, just as intelligent design is a theory. Both are supported by science, just different theories about the origin. Both have every reason to be taught in school.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/11/2008 @ 09:57am

  200. Both have every reason to be taught in school.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/11/2008 @ 09:57am

    humans are so arrogant.

    why didn't god create penguins in his image?

    and why did god create mosquitos and republicans?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/11/2008 @ 2:53pm

  201. Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/11/2008 @ 09:57am

    "Both are supported by science, just different theories..."

    What science?

    "It is actually a vaild scientific theory supported by reputable scientists."

    What reputable scientists?

    Evolution is a theory, which, like all theories predicts experimental outcomes and is well supported by the fossil record and DNA, all the way back to life's origins, which are unknown to us now.

    Intelligent design (while actually sanitized, repackaged creationism), purports to be a "theory" (yet allows no predictions to be made for experiment) in which the actual evidence is glossed over, or often distorted. And the things that remain unknown get relabeled as god.

    Posted by Malcontent at 09/11/2008 @ 7:15pm

  202. The following might help explain my point of view. It comes from a newspaper in the UK.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main .jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/01/28/do2803.xml

    "Contrary to media reports, ID is not a religious-based idea, but an evidence-based scientific theory about life's origins. According to Darwinian biologists such as Oxford University's Richard Dawkins, living systems "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose".

    But, for modern Darwinists, that appearance of design is illusory, because the purely undirected process of natural selection acting on random mutations is entirely sufficient to produce the intricate designed-like structures found in living organisms.

    By contrast, ID holds that there are tell-tale features of living systems and the universe that are best explained by a designing intelligence. The theory does not challenge the idea of evolution defined as change over time, or even common ancestry, but it disputes Darwin's idea that the cause of biological change is wholly blind and undirected."

    "In recent years, biologists have discovered an exquisite world of nanotechnology within living cells - complex circuits, sliding clamps, energy-generating turbines and miniature machines. For example, bacterial cells are propelled by rotary engines called flagellar motors that rotate at 100,000rpm. These engines look like they were designed by engineers, with many distinct mechanical parts (made of proteins), including rotors, stators, O-rings, bushings, U-joints and drive shafts.

    The biochemist Michael Behe points out that the flagellar motor depends on the co-ordinated function of 30 protein parts. Remove one of these proteins and the rotary motor doesn't work. The motor is, in Behe's words, "irreducibly complex"."

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/12/2008 @ 12:28pm

  203. continued... "This creates a problem for the Darwinian mechanism. Natural selection preserves or "selects" functional advantages as they arise by random mutation. Yet the flagellar motor does not function unless all its 30 parts are present. Thus,natural selection can "select" the motor once it has arisen as a functioning whole, but it cannot produce the motor in a step-by-step Darwinian fashion.

    Natural selection purportedly builds complex systems from simpler structures by preserving a series of intermediates, each of which must perform some function. With the flagellar motor, most of the critical intermediate structures perform no function for selection to preserve. This leaves the origin of the flagellar motor unexplained by the mechanism-natural selection-that Darwin specifically proposed to replace the design hypothesis.

    Is there a better explanation? Based on our uniform experience,we know of only one type of cause that produces irreducibly complex systems: intelligence. Whenever we encounter complex systems-whether integrated circuits or internal combustion engines-and we know how they arose,invariably a designing intelligence played a role.

    Consider an even more fundamental argument for design. In 1953,when Watson and Crick elucidated the structure of the DNA molecule, they made a startling discovery. Strings of precisely sequenced chemicals called nucleotides in DNA store and transmit the assembly instructions-the information-in a four-character digital code for building the protein molecules the cell needs to survive. Crick then developed his "sequence hypothesis",in which the chemical bases in DNA function like letters in a written language or symbols in a computer code. As Dawkins has noted,"the machine code of the genes is uncannily computer-like

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/12/2008 @ 12:32pm

  204. cont... "DNA functions like a software program. We know from experience that software comes from programmers. We know that information - whether, say, in hieroglyphics or radio signals - always arises from an intelligent source. As the pioneering information theorist Henry Quastler observed: "Information habitually arises from conscious activity." So the discovery of digital information in DNA provides strong grounds for inferring that intelligence played a causal role in its origin.

    ... ID may provide support for theistic belief. But that is not grounds for dismissing it. Those who do confuse the evidence for the theory with its possible implications. Many astrophysicists initially rejected the Big Bang theory because it seemed to point to the need for a transcendent cause of matter, space and time. But science eventually accepted it because the evidence strongly supported it.

    Today, a similar prejudice confronts ID. Nevertheless, this new theory must also be evaluated on the basis of the evidence, not philosophical preferences. As Professor Flew advises: "We must follow the evidence, wherever it leads."

    ****** In conclusion, you might not like the evidence provided by scientists, but it is still evidence, nonetheless.

    Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/12/2008 @ 12:36pm

  205. Posted by jayneslilsis at 09/12/2008 @ 12:36pm:

    "This creates a problem for the Darwinian mechanism. Natural selection preserves or "selects" functional advantages as they arise by random mutation. Yet the flagellar motor does not function unless all its 30 parts are present. Thus,natural selection can "select" the motor once it has arisen as a functioning whole, but it cannot produce the motor in a step-by-step Darwinian fashion."

    newscientist.com:

    "The best studied flagellum, of the E. coli bacterium, contains around 40 different kinds of proteins. Only 23 of these proteins, however, are common to all the other bacterial flagella studied so far. Either a "designer" created thousands of variants on the flagellum or, contrary to creationist claims, it is possible to make considerable changes to the machinery without mucking it up.

    What's more, of these 23 proteins, it turns out that just two are unique to flagella. The others all closely resemble proteins that carry out other functions in the cell. This means that the vast majority of the components needed to make a flagellum might already have been present in bacteria before this structure appeared.

    It has also been shown that some of the components that make up a typical flagellum – the motor, the machinery for extruding the "propeller" and a primitive directional control system – can perform other useful functions in the cell, such as exporting proteins."

    Enjoy your fantasies.

    Have a nice day.

    Eric

    Posted by Malcontent at 09/12/2008 @ 9:21pm

  206. Jesus was a Jew. He was not a Christian. No Christians were around until hundreds of years later, when they began the custom of calling themselves Christians. Thus when the Romans threw the "Christians" to the lions, they were actually throwing the Jews to the lions. Not surprising, in light of history

    As far as Jews killing anyone, far more Jews have been killed - senselessly - than the number of people Jews have killed. And as fas as Sarah Palin is concerned, it appears she has no shame in her quest to appeal to the broadest segment of people.

    Posted by ruffnation at 09/13/2008 @ 10:58pm

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Revolutionary Republic of July 4 Should Eschew Empire's Errors | Instead of interventions in Iran, Honduras, we must recall wisdom that said: "(America) goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy."
John Nichols
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Posted at 2:35 PM ET

» The Notion

Celebrating the Fourth by Remembering the Fifth | On Independence Day, the forgotten and imperiled Fifth Amendment bears honoring.
Eyal Press
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» Editor's Cut

Obama in Moscow | The President will give an interview to Russia's leading opposition newspaper Novaya Gazeta. to mark his visit there on Monday. This is very good news.
Katrina vanden Heuvel
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» Altercation

Mikey 'n' Me | I got closer to Michael Jackson than almost anyone, or at least closer than most people of the age of consent.
Eric Alterman

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Washington: Even More Corrupt Than You Thought! | Washington Post sells access to lobbyists.
Christopher Hayes
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Whisky Tango Foxtrot? | General Jones tells the generals in Kabul: don't bother asking for more troops.
Robert Dreyfuss
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» Act Now!

Food Independence Day | Celebrate America's independence by feasting on locally grown food on July 4.
Peter Rothberg
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