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RedditPoliticians, legal experts and progressive activists grappled with Republican abuses of power at the third annual netroots convention on Friday, debating how an Obama Administration might restore the rule of law. Cass Sunstein, an informal adviser to Barack Obama from the University of Chicago Law School, urged caution in prosecuting criminal conduct from the current administration, while also noting that egregious crimes should not be ignored. Prosecuting government officials risks a "cycle" of criminalizing public service, he argued, and Democrats should avoid replicating retributive efforts like the impeachment of President Clinton--or even the "slight appearance" of it. (Note: I updated this passage after talking with Professor Sunstein; the earlier version did not include his remarks about not ignoring egregious crimes. Some of the panel videos are available online, though so far not this one, if possible I will post more quotes from the panel when video becomes available.)
"Give me a break," responded former Alabama Governor Don Siegelman, when told about Sunstein's advice during an interview with The Nation. Siegelman took a court-sanctioned trip to tell attendees about his conviction for corruption, currently on appeal, which he says was motivated by a malicious Republican effort to destroy his career. Discussing alleged White House abuse of the Justice Department, which led to Alberto Gonzales' resignation, Siegelman said "what Karl Rove has been accused of doing would make Watergate look like child's play." The former governor also urged activists to press Congress to hold Rove in contempt for defying a House subpoena in a related investigation. His supporters have launched an Internet campaign, ContemptforRove.org, to advance the cause. Noting that Rove's potential testimony "could not impact" his appeal, Siegelman said he was still pressing the issue because it was fundamental to "restoring justice and preserving our democracy." He learned how blogs were scrutinizing the Republican corruption at the Justice Department when supporters sent him print-outs from TalkingPointsMemo while he was serving the first 9 months of his prison sentence.
Attendees and bloggers are disappointed with the emerging, bipartisan consensus in Washington that the lawlessness of the Bush era can largely go unpunished. After emphasizing more investigations over actual accountability, Sunstein and Nixon-era White House Counsel John Dean faced pointed questioning at a packed panel on "The Next President and the Law." Mike Stark, a blogger who helped organize the spying protests within Obama's social network, asked why politicians should ever be above the law. And Hunter, a popular "front-page poster" on DailyKos, captured the mood in a long post kicking off the conference:
It seems evident, at this point, that there will be no comeuppance as a result of the excesses of the Bush administration. There will be investigations; they will investigate. There will be subpoenas; they will simply be refused...We know misrepresentations were made that led us, apparently inexorably, into war. In the end, we are as a nation (public, press, and government) not particularly interested in hearing the particulars of how or why; the truth is that we were aching for a good war, and the rationale was an afterthought not just for the Bush administration, but for most of their audience.
We know the rule of law itself was politicized, made into an apparatus of partisan advantage, a weapon for the ruling party to use against opponents. We know who did it, and we know it was not just unethical, but illegal. But to push it farther than that would require taking the last step -- from investigation, to prosecution -- and that step seems illusory, at best.... There will be reconciliation, and reconciliation will be defined by the conservative punditry as letting bygones be bygones -- anything but that will be unacceptable and partisan, in itself.
The conference continues through Sunday, with addresses by Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Chairman Howard Dean, netroots favorite Donna Edwards, columnist Paul Krugman, DLC head Harold Ford, blogger Markos Moulitsas and a host of writers and policy wonks. (I'm moderating a panel on "War Pundits.") Barack Obama, who attended last year's conference, sent several aides in his place this time. Campaign spokesperson Hari Sevugan told The Nation that the "netroots community is an important voice in our public discourse" that can impact policy and "help keep people involved after the election."
Update: Glenn Greenwald discusses these issues in a post about preemptive pardons.
Howard Dean arrives at Netroots Nation
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would THEY be so kind?
sad.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/18/2008 @ 7:15pm
italics? how...huh?
Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/18/2008 @ 7:49pm
Where are all the BUSH appeasers .??? Come on now... Cant have a Nation blog without the usual band of sheep tellin all us Merica' hatin' librls' that were all better off because of our Fearless Decider in chief...
Posted by Vvf1969 at 07/18/2008 @ 9:27pm
I hope Cass Sunstein isn't to far up on the Obama totem poll. I caucused for Obama because Edwards had dropped out and I'm deathly tired of dynasties. If Obama ends up being so tentative as to be useless to America, we will go beyond the tipping point of sustaining what is left of America. We are about to end up like countries we are trying to influence toward change, like China.
Posted by julien38 at 07/18/2008 @ 9:34pm
"Prosecuting government officials risks a "cycle" of criminalizing public service. . . "
Apparently, Cass Sunstein thinks that torture, warrantless surveillance (a felony under the old FISA), and politically motivated prosecution, among many other things, are just alternative varieties of "public service." The cynicism of such a view is astounding.
Posted by oisin at 07/18/2008 @ 10:03pm
Oh my... I find "Hunter's" little polemic to be so 'ho hum' and limp wristed as to be tediously tepid.
Yeah... so Bush and Rove put America over a barrel... and took us halfway to hell... yeah... so... what's on the tube tonight honey?
Is it just that we actually believe we are complicit because so many were 'taken in' by the frontal assault of the MSM?
Or... are we just not supposed to look at Justice's beautiful face until we have delivered her safely back from Hades...?
Cut and snip alert!
From- Hades, Greek God of the Underworld
Orpheus, who was grieving the death of his wife Eurydice, played and sang so movingly for Hades and Persephone that, touched by his performance, Hades agreed to let Orpheus take his wife back with him to the land of the living. He set only one condition - that Orpheus could not look at her until they reached the sunlight of the earth. Unfortunately Orpheus couldn't resist the impulse, and the shade of Eurydice returned instantly to live with the dead. Hades refused to allow Orpheus a second chance.
Posted by ttr at 07/18/2008 @ 10:21pm
Attacks on rule of law?
Are you talking about Nancy Pelosi's threatened assault on the First Amendment through the 'Fairness Doctrine', putting the goverment in charge of what poltical content gets broadcast on the airwaves?
Or are you talking about gun control laws that violate that Second Amendment? I'm still waiting for Then Nation to advocate criminal prosecutions of all those liberal Democrats who instituted 'illegal' gun control laws under the most recent Supreme Court decision!
Oh, no, sorry. You're talking about imaginary infringements on American citizens' rights via the Patriot Act, overwhelmingly passed by both Houses of Congress.
Drink a little more kool-aid, my friends on the left.
Posted by pontificus at 07/18/2008 @ 11:15pm
And here the final chapter of "progressive" vacuity concerning the system. What nauseates particularly is the self importance and the posturing of the people purportedly leading the "netroots" movement. Whether its Glenn Greenwald and his phony campaign to hold gutless Democratic congressman to account for their FISA and other perfidy, all the while accepting on its face the Obama candidacy, or these abysmally naive simpletons, organized, so-called "progressive" America is a very, very, weak reed, just always the eternal tail to the Democratic Party dog. There will be no solution the the dilema the American people face by contentment with the existing structures. A real solution requires their being replaced. Its Nader for progressives or more of what characterized the last seve years.
Posted by john lowell at 07/19/2008 @ 12:14am
Where are all the BUSH appeasers .??? Come on now... Cant have a Nation blog without the usual band of sheep tell in all us Merica' hatin' librls' that were all better off because of our Fearless Decider in chief...There will be no solution the the dilema the American people face by contentment with the existing structures. A real solution requires their being replaced. Its Nader for progressives or more of what characterized the last seve years.
dorkey
<a href="http://www.addictionrecovery.net/nevada"> Addiction Recovery Nevada</a>
Posted by sspl05 at 07/19/2008 @ 01:21am
i want heads on poles. treasonous criminal traitors hanging from every streetlight!
well...at least rove arrested and held over a fire on the hill til he squeals or pops...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/19/2008 @ 06:19am
I feel the same about Pope ALGORE...absolute fraud.
A cell for him...with pads.
Posted by JOMAMMA at 07/19/2008 @ 11:40am
What laws did Al Gore violate?
Posted by Balrog at 07/19/2008 @ 1:18pm
A cell for him...with pads.
Posted by JOMAMMA at 07/19/2008 @ 11:40am
What laws did Al Gore violate?
Posted by Balrog at 07/19/2008 @ 1:18pm
All Al Gore violates is JoMa's sense of REALITY-- which is currently very very (lets be generous) 'fragile'.
Posted by hsuBfools at 07/19/2008 @ 2:59pm
Ah...I thought maybe Gore authorized illegal wiretaps or something.
Posted by Balrog at 07/19/2008 @ 3:27pm
In a real democracy, when traitors so violate the very laws that created the people's government and establishes a separate form that's only sustainability is that it cannot be removed by the very laws it's violating, that is globally understood to be a 'dictatorship'; in our case a 'corporate dictatorship'. And one predicted at it's inception:
http://www-tech.mit.edu/V121/N21/col21avdv.21c.html
Posted by hsuBfools at 07/19/2008 @ 3:29pm
It is then the 'people's' responsibility to regain it's freedom and renew consensus of its laws by means necessary by its original creation.
Posted by hsuBfools at 07/19/2008 @ 3:34pm
Posted by hsuBfools at 07/19/2008 @ 3:29pm
Wow, let's see. Since Bush, Cheney, the Senate, and the entire House of Representatives have colluded in signing FISA, the Patriot Act, and pretty much every other piece of legislation the loony left collectivelly refers to as 'violations of the people's laws' then I guess we must have the only dictatorship in the world (and, perhaps, in history) that consists of over 535 'dictators'.
Posted by pontificus at 07/19/2008 @ 5:27pm
Posted by pontificus at 07/19/2008 @ 5:27pm
PoTi, you of course left out dic'tator stuff like:
illegal partisan use of WH
illegal signing statements
illegal spying on US citizens
illegal torture
illegal DoJ partisan hiring and corruption
illegal use of DoJ for partisan obstruction of justice
illegal noncompliance to congressional subpoenas
illegal no bid war profiteering contracts
illegal access to WH by perv(s)
illegal energy no bid agreements
illegal false testimony about WMD
illegal outing of CIA agent
illegal war
illegal negligent entrustment of Katrina aftermath
to name just a few off the top of my head.
Posted by hsuBfools at 07/19/2008 @ 11:13pm
I would like to welcome Pelosi and Obie into the plan enacted 5 years ago...
Posted by JOMAMMA at 07/19/2008 @ 8:28pm
er, you mean:
September 16, 2007
Alan Greenspan claims Iraq war was really for oil
"I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil," he says.
Greenspan claims Iraq war was really for oil Greenspan, 81, is understood to believe that Saddam Hussein posed a threat to the security of oil supplies in the Middle East.
Britain and America have always insisted the war had nothing to do with oil. Bush said the aim was to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction and end Saddam's support for terrorism.
http://tinyurl.com/3dnkw3
- or -
Sunday, September 14, 2003
MR. RUSSERT: We, in fact, have about 140,000 troops, 20,000 international troops, as well. Did you misjudge the number of troops necessary to secure Iraq after major combat operations?
VICE PRES. CHENEY: Well, you're going to get into a debate here about--talking about several years, several hundred thousand troops for several years. I think that's a non-starter. I don't think we have any plan to do that, Tim. I don't think it's necessary to do that.
...
VICE PRES. CHENEY: We talk about $87 billion. Yeah, that's a significant expense. No question about it. But it's going to be much more expensive down the road if we wait. And it'll be much more expensive--it's less money, frankly, than the events of 9/11 imposed on us here in the United States.
...
MR. RUSSERT: If you froze the tax cut for the top 1 percent of Americans, it would generate enough money to pay for the $87 billion for the war, if you did it for just one year. Would you consider that?
VICE PRES. CHENEY: I think it'd be a mistake, because you can't look at that without considering what its impact would be on the economy.
...
VICE PRES. CHENEY: No. I don't know Joe Wilson. I've never met Joe Wilson. A question had arisen. I'd heard a report that the Iraqis had been trying to acquire uranium in Africa, Niger in particular. I get a daily brief on my own each day before I meet with the president to go through the intel. And I ask lots of question. One of the questions I asked at that particular time about this, I said, "What do we know about this?" They take the question. He came back within a day or two and said, "This is all we know. There's a lot we don't know," end of statement.
MR. RUSSERT: But we see deficits for the next 10 years, big ones. How do you deal with that, when you have Social Security, Medicare, coming up?
VICE PRES. CHENEY: We anticipate even with the added spending that we've asked for now we'll cut the deficit roughly in half from where it'll be next year over the next five years. So we'll be moving in the right direction.
MR. RUSSERT: If they were wrong, Mr. Vice President, shouldn't we have a wholesale investigation into the intelligence failure that they predicted...
VICE PRES. CHENEY: What failure?
MR. RUSSERT: That Saddam had biological, chemical and is developing a nuclear program.
VICE PRES. CHENEY: My guess is in the end, they'll be proven right, Tim.
...
MR. RUSSERT: Do you think the president is betting his presidency on the war in Iraq?
VICE PRES. CHENEY: This president is betting his presidency on the importance of fighting the war on terror, of recognizing that 9/11 changed everything, of adopting a strategy that's going to make this nation safer and more secure for our kids and grandkids. And it takes a president willing to take a risk, willing to use the power of the United States, to make that happen. And this president's done it.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3080244/
Posted by hsuBfools at 07/20/2008 @ 12:15am
Yep, hsuB's fucked things up real good for "for our kids and grandkids".
Posted by hsuBfools at 07/20/2008 @ 12:21am
Myself: what do you think Self? Are the powerful, the millionaire/billionaires, the well connected, making rules that only apply to us "little people", who don't have a gated community or live in a compound larger than most towns?
Self: I don't think so My. These people are American too right? Even when they travel by corporate jet and are globalists they care about us and our kids, don't they?.
Myself: Ya, these guys and gals really work hard making deals and making millions selling off our country, while we only collect garbage six days a week. They deserve special rules. They shouldn't be subject to the same rules as the rest of us. What the hell was I thinking? sorry!!
Posted by julien38 at 07/20/2008 @ 6:41pm
I hope Sunstein isn't appointed AG. I think Obama needs to vacate the executive orders, and someone in DOJ needs to be assigned only to this question. You can't (I hope)decide in advance what you will do until you know what you are dealing with. Let them ignore subpoenas issued by a judge.
Posted by ramara at 07/20/2008 @ 10:22pm
Posted by pontificus at 07/18/2008 @ 11:15pm |
What violation of the 2nd Amendment can you point to, PONTI?
The fact you can't own a Browning .50 cal?
Posted by Maskdelta at 07/21/2008 @ 09:12am