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RedditJohn Hagee, the controversial pastor who has endorsed John McCain, argued in a late 1990s sermon that God sent Hitler to help the Jews get to the promised land (Israel, not Auschwitz).
Why did God allow the Holocaust to happen? According to a report in the Huffington Post by Sam Stein, Hagee's answer was: "Because God said my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel."
The report raises several questions. Did God have to be so rough in his methods? Instead of putting the Jews on trains to Auschwitz, couldn't he have gotten them bus tickets to Tel Aviv?
Hagee made the news earlier when he told Terry Gross on NPR's "Fresh Air" that Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment for the people of New Orleans who allowed a Gay Pride parade to be scheduled. According to that theory, the Holocaust should be seen as God's punishment for the Jews allowing those Gay Pride parades in Warsaw, Odessa and Lodz.
Alternatively, Hurricane Katrina could be viewed as God's method of getting the people of New Orleans to move to Houston.
Hagee got in trouble earlier for a sermon in which he called the Catholic church "the Great Whore." He would never say that about Golda Meier.
Hagee is one of the organizers of Christians United for Israel, which lobbies Congress on behalf of the Jewish state. He has received many awards from right-wing Jewish organizations, incudling the Israel Award of the Zionist Organization of America, presented in a ceremony in Dallas by former UN Ambassador Jean Kirkpatrick.
Hagee's sermon on Hitler as God's agent, delivered in the late 1990s, was first posted by Bruce Wilson on his site, Talk To Action.
Next question: why does John McCain think God sent us Hitler?
better question:
why does god make so many crazy people?
Thursday, May 22, 2008 12:23:16 AM
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2008 @ 12:16am
people need neither god to make them crazy nor the devil to tempt them to evil.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2008 @ 01:36am
Plenty of Orthodox rabbis say the same thing or even worse--that the Holocaust was G-d's punishment for the Jews' apostasy (that is, their perfidious abandonment of those selfsame Orthodox rabbis). It's absurd horse hockey no matter what religious tradition the particular buffoon comes from.
Posted by feinfein at 05/22/2008 @ 05:09am
Hagee's 'support' for Israel is more nefarious than is being reported; he is among those whose eschatology asserts that in order for the End Times to be realized and Jesus to return, the state of Israel must physically exist. In other words, his support of Israel is merely tacit, so that the Second Coming can be fulfilled.
Moreover, the lackeys of the MSM fail to report what happens to the Jewish people once Jesus returns. Hagee's particular beliefs have not been reported, at least not that I have seen; however, if his beliefs are akin to others (LaHaye, et al) of this persuasion, the choice that the Jewish people will be given is more or less choose Jesus or be destroyed and burn in Hell.
Posted by skeletonman at 05/22/2008 @ 06:29am
"...the choice that the Jewish people will be given is more or less choose Jesus or be destroyed and burn in Hell.
Posted by skeletonman at 05/22/2008
It is a better choice than the Arabs have given them since Israels founding and a better chice that Irans Armyjihad, Bin Ladaen or any oither Islamic nut is giving them now...
Posted by JOMAMMA at 05/22/2008 @ 08:26am
Rapture Index 170
Net Change unch
Updated May 19, 2008
I guess the US giving African Americans a rough time is just more outlandish than flying horseys coming to Earth, G-d ravishing the place, wiping out 1/2 the Jews, the EU being the work of SATAN etc...
Just look at the Satanic rantings, channeled through one of his minions:
["…Every major religion of the world has similar ideals of love, the same goal of benefiting humanity through spiritual practice…The most important thing is to look at details of theology or metaphysics…I believe that all the major religions of the world can contribute to world peace and work together for the benefit of humanity if we put aside subtle metaphysical differences, which are really the internal business of each religion…The undying faith in religion clearly demonstrates the potency of religion as such. This spiritual energy and power can be purposefully used to bring about the spiritual conditions necessary for world peace." (Dalai Lama.)]
Armageddon is specifically mentioned once in the Bible, homosexuality once. Caring for the poor, sick and elderly dozens of times, if not hundreds.
But, what have been the subjects most worked upon by the religious right in the public domain ?
Hagee and his ilk are as much nutters as Koresh or Jones, far worse than poor 'Ol Rev Wright, but they are "mainstream".
Scary.
Posted by crabwalk at 05/22/2008 @ 08:33am
Posted by JOMAMMA at 05/22/2008
Well, then I guess it is ok.
Maybe if those you write of gave Jews the choice to convert to Islam or be blown up you could forgive them?
Posted by crabwalk at 05/22/2008 @ 08:37am
Again, what if G-ds Plan is the Caliphate?
oooohh, She is gonna be pissed at some of you, if it is!
Posted by crabwalk at 05/22/2008 @ 08:38am
I have a post card from the Rapture folks. It shows, among other things, airplanes flying into skyscrapers during this here "Rapture".
A conclusion could be that Atta was in fact doing g-ds work.
If one was a nutter and bought this hooey.
I sure would be interested to read about the differences between those that want a war to bring about the Caliphate, and those that wanted war in Iraq to speed up the Tribulation. Both sound pretty darn wacky to this loonie toon. Or, am I just being a bigot?
Posted by crabwalk at 05/22/2008 @ 08:43am
[After The Rapture, God will begin executing judgments against unbelievers, during a period called the Tribulation. At the end of the Tribulation all nations will attack Israel, and Jesus Christ will physically return, leading the armies of heaven. At the Battle of Armeggedon they will destroy everyone who is not a believer. Then Satan will be bound, and Jesus will set up the Millennial Kingdom, headquartered in Jerusalem. Jesus and the saints will rule over the nations of the Earth for a thousand years. During this period there will be people born who are not loyal to Christ. However, it usually will not be obvious. Therefore, at the end of the thousand-year period, God will release Satan and let him tempt those who inhabit the Earth. A large group will take up arms against the Lord and be defeated. Then, Christ will judge all who have ever lived, giving rewards to some and punishment to others. Those who were "destroyed" will be cast into the Lake of Fire, i.e., Hell. After that, God will destroy heaven and Earth because they have been polluted by sin. He will create a new heaven and a new Earth, put those who were saved on the new Earth, and rule it forever.]- ( The Jehovah's Witnesses have a slightly different take, them being "really wacky". They think that The Kingdom of Heaven will be on Earth, which sounds pretty cool, cuz I like the Earth. )
Whereas a Caliphate is one ruler for the Muslims, bringing Sharia Law to Believers. Evidently, to accomplish this, bin Laden and crew need to do some killin'.
Both sound pretty outrageous to me, but the wholesale wipeout of those that don't accept Jesus sounds a little more extreme, to me.
Open to comments...
Posted by crabwalk at 05/22/2008 @ 09:02am
MAsk, I actually agree with you (mostly) about Hagee/MCain connection.
But... in order to get elected McCain will HAVE to turn out the RR in droves. To do that he will have to do some more flippin and-a floppin'. He will have to appear with some of the guiding lights of the RR, take their cash, pat them on the back and say " Just kiddin' about the 'agents of intolerance' thing." He has already made nice with the Bob Jones crew.
Posted by crabwalk at 05/22/2008 @ 09:09am
I'm not religious but I'm so sick and tired of these pastors blaming bad stuff that happen on God. Didnt the bible that there is also evil. Katrina God because they were having a gay parade. The holocaust God because he wants the jews to move to Isarel. Why would you worship someone who does evil things like this. Stop blaming an imaginary figure and blame who did it it wasnt the Hurricane that created that diasaster in NO it was the FAILURE Of the govermnent. Hurricanes are not earthquakes that come out of the blue you know they strike and you know where they will strike and you prepared they knew that there was a possiblity that those levee's would break how the heck is that God's fault. WRONG its INCOMPETENENCE and a government that doesnt care. But the blame where it should be.
As far as the holocuast thats HITLERS doing and a world that stood by and let it happen. Government and rulers need to take responsibility for their actions reprehensible it might be. Its like a freaking child blaming an imaginary friend. I'm SICK of it
Carol
Posted by harriscrl3 at 05/22/2008 @ 09:11am
(which means more than just its existance, but it maintaining the post-1967 borders)
mask
whatta mean?
israel shall conquer the universe!
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2008 @ 09:11am
you
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2008 @ 09:11am
harriscrl3
the cubans prepare quite well for hurricanes....
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2008 @ 09:15am
god,
are you really the asshole all these lunatics tell me you are?
say it ain't so.
please.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2008 @ 09:16am
Aww man, I gotta go to work!
Have fun with this one boys and girls.
----
Realistically...
Librool flip flopping McCain/Tax Hike Mike Huckabee.
Posted by crabwalk at 05/22/2008 @ 09:24am
the cubans prepare quite well for hurricanes....
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2008
What about the Finnish Cubans?
Posted by crabwalk at 05/22/2008 @ 09:25am
hey!
no more going back to the homepage!
now,
html?
Thursday, May 22, 2008 9:34:33 AM
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2008 @ 09:27am
Next question: why does John McCain think God sent us Hitler?
Oh better yet....Hussein & Ahmahdinejad?
Posted by OneVote at 05/22/2008 @ 09:34am
Now is the time for Republicans and Democrats to end the politics of fear.....
george w bush, philadelphia, 2000
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2008 @ 09:37am
Posted by JOMAMMA at 05/22/2008
I'll remind you that there is a difference between Muslims and God.
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2008
I disagree. The fact that McCain is chumming around with these folks and has this in his heart of hearts leaves me wondering what he will not do to satisfy his ambition to be President - and what his ambitions are once he does have that power.
Posted by crabwalk at 05/22/2008
It's a repeat of the problems of the Jews during Jesus's time who were looking for an actual king. Jesus stated that his kingdom was not of this earth, "the kingdom of heaven" - and it is within you. I always think of the Chinese saying that says:
Hell is a place where there is six foot chopsticks and no one can feed themselves. Heaven is a place where there is six foot chopsticks and everyone is feeding everyone else.
Posted by harriscrl3 at 05/22/2008
Rev. Wright actually has a good point on this issue. God takes what had evil intent and turns it into something good. He used his own controversy as a point and said that Obama's speech on race is one result from it that may ultimately be for good and advancing the dialogue. But evil doesn't come from God, it comes from being disconnected from God and from each other.
Posted by srjenkins at 05/22/2008 @ 10:17am
Posted by OneVote at 05/22/2008
no no no
Imadidajob
testing 'warnit'
Posted by Benchrest at 05/22/2008 @ 10:22am
Posted by JOMAMMA at 05/22/2008
What choice, exactly, were the Palestians given?
Posted by skeletonman at 05/22/2008 @ 10:43am
....two theories-
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2008
Or, which in my mind is the most likely of all, he combines the two and ends up contradicting himself.
Posted by skeletonman at 05/22/2008 @ 10:52am
Posted by OneVote at 05/22/2008
no no no
Imadidajob
testing 'warnit'
Posted by Benchrest at 05/22/2008
Lets focus on underlying principals and principles who got us into the current mess we are in. What Hagee and McCain think are not a threat to the story of holocaust. There is lots of biblical groupthink behind Operation Chaos, and I would sure like to know McCain's view of this. If Bush has a direct pipeline to the All Mighty, and McCain sure looks like he is on board, lets hear from Mr. Flipflop on what whether he thinks Hussein and Ahmahdinejad are products of divine intervention meant to push us ever closer to judgment day and ultimate victory of judeo-christian rationalized biblical and political ideology.
Posted by OneVote at 05/22/2008 @ 11:15am
Headline: "McCain's Pastor Hagee on Hitler and the Jews"
First Sentence: "John Hagee, the controversial pastor who has endorsed John McCain"
The First Sentence contradicts the Headline. An endorsement by a pastor does not make the pastor yours. McCain's pastor is undoubtedly some other guy.
McCain didn't choose Hagee, Hagee chose McCain. That's a big difference.
Jon Weiner is lying.
Posted by abcloven at 05/22/2008 @ 11:26am
Posted by OneVote at 05/22/2008
Do I have to?
I'm sorta just here for the jokes and the banter.
I'll leave the serious stuff for you guys to dissect.
Posted by Benchrest at 05/22/2008 @ 11:49am
FYI: Matt Taibbi's new book "The Great Derangement: A Terrifying True Story of War, Politics and Religion at the Twilight of the American Empire," discloses his 5 month undercover penetration of Pastor John Hagee's religious cult down in San Antonio, Texas. One of the highlights was when Matt, who speaks Russian, charmed Hagee's followers who were trying to teach him how to speak in "Tongues" as he sang old Ukranean folk songs to the Czar . . . "Hey you really can speak to God." For a real first-hand insight into the world of Pastor John Hagee, you must read Matt's newest book.
Posted by Jamaal at 05/22/2008 @ 12:00pm
Why would you worship someone who does evil things like this?
Posted by harriscrl3 at 05/22/2008
Ask Job.
Posted by skeletonman at 05/22/2008 @ 12:23pm
[Hell is a place where there is six foot chopsticks and no one can feed themselves. Heaven is a place where there is six foot chopsticks and everyone is feeding everyone else.
]
Damn commies!
So, Hagee is not McCains pastor. He is just a "bundler". Yes, much better. He shouldn't have any influence, as opposed to Wright, who is persona-non-grata around the Obama Cult nowadays, right? Hagee will be seen with his arm up McCains back often, methinks.
I find it really, really funny that Happy will refer to O's "cult" but not Hagees. Why is that Happy? Why is the desire to see a change in politics in DC a "cult", but believing that flying horseys will come smite me, and that G-d was working the Jews during the Holocaust... is not a "cult"?
Is this more pages from the Repulican dictionary? Up is left, black is mauve and paying Saddam is not appeasement.
Posted by crabwalk at 05/22/2008 @ 12:28pm
Jon Weiner is lying.
Posted by abcloven at 05/22/2008
You sure?
Lets give McCain till the end of the day to unequivocally dump Pastor Hagee. At the end of the day, if he hasn't, lets call Hagee "McCain's Pastor Hagee." Fair enough?
Posted by OneVote at 05/22/2008 @ 12:30pm
Posted by Jamaal at 05/22/2008
thanks, I will look it up. I have space next to my copy of "Under the Banner of Heaven"
But, they are not cults! Nope.
Posted by crabwalk at 05/22/2008 @ 12:31pm
i wonder if pastor larry has a "compound"........
Thursday, May 22, 2008 12:42:21 PM
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2008 @ 12:35pm
"McCain's dog walker, who endorses him, doesn't pick up the poo"
Kinda like Hamas endorsing Obama. Doesn't mean a thing, does it?
Posted by Balrog at 05/22/2008 @ 1:05pm
<i>Posted by OneVote at 05/22/2008 </i>
Your claim here relies on a false dichotomy. It assumes that there are only two choices; either:
1) McCain must have no association with Hagee, or
2) Hagee can be considered McCain's pastor.
Unfortunately for your argument, there is a third:
(3) Hagee is someone whose endorsement and base support McCain wants, but with whom he strongly disagrees on many things.
I think the phrase "McCain's Pastor Hagee" seems to quietly dismiss this possibility. It posits that McCain and Hagee are tied to one another in the same way that Wright and Obama are (or, perhaps now, were?). On any level, this comparison is manifestly false, so the article's title is indeed deceptive.
Posted by Thrawn at 05/22/2008 @ 1:33pm
Their dogma (Hagee's and LVLIB's) require that Israel return to its "Biblical" borders...i.e. just about 1967, even the West Bank and Gaza (maybe more). Anything less reduces the possibility of the End Times/Rapture/etc. of "Biblical prophecy".
See, to them, Israel isn't just a "nation-state"...it's religious dogma and real-world politics, even the chance for peace, is not as important as making sure that "anything that was Israel in 200 BCE" (or "BC"...heheh) is "Israel today".
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2008
Wrong again, and I've posted a response to this lie on numerous occasions.
But it seems that while you can remember and post my comments on nuking China, you cannot recall that I have stated that Pastor Hagee, myself, and all of those who teach from the pre-millinial, pre-tribulation school of eschatological thought, teach that no (that means no, none, nada) events are required to take place in order for the rapture to occur.
Here is a typical response on the subject I did back in July of 2006 here at the Nation (in response to Brunowe)
Again the link you shared did not contradict what I have said. I am well versed on Hagee having heard him preach and have read much of his writing. What you seem to be conflating are the Christian beliefs that unfulfilled prophecies concerning Israel and other nations will come to pass in the future, including the battle of Armageddon, and Christian belief in the Rapture.
Neither Hagee, Hal Lindsay or any other Christian leaders commonly cited state that these events are <b>necessary</b> for the Rapture of the body of Christ to occur. Yes, they are necessary for the second coming of Christ at the time of the battle of Armageddon, but there is no need in our beliefs (and I know for a fact Hagee does not teach otherwise) for us to do anything politically or as regards other nations and Israel to trigger the Rapture. But, what they and many other teachers including myself do acknowledge is the belief that these events will happen and drawing upon current events to show how these nations and their actions relate to what will happen in the future.
In Hagee's book "Beginning of the End" he clearly outlines the position of Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Charismatics, and other Bible believing segments of the Church concerning these events. I just quickly perused through it and indeed he does nothing to contradict what I have said. Likewise, I did the same with Hal Lindsay's "There's a New World Coming". Both make it clear that these events are coming but that believing Christians do not look for them but for Christ at the Rapture of the Saints (all who believe). That the seven year tribulation begins at that moment concluded by the Return of Christ for the battle of Hal Meggido (Hebrew) or Armageddon (Greek) as outlined in the OT book of Daniel ch. 11 Zechariah ch's. 12 and14, New Testament Luke 21, Matthew 24, Revelation ch. 19.
As Jesus told His disciples; "Pray that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass" Luke 21:36
Posted by lvliberty1 at 05/22/2008 @ 1:38pm
i wonder if pastor larry has a "compound"........
Thursday, May 22, 2008 12:42:21 PM
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2008
No.
Unless you consider the one acre home that contains myself, my wife, my mother-in-law, a nephew, my dog, and our bird to be a compound.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 05/22/2008 @ 1:42pm
Wonder why we can't get the mainstream press to play these clips of Hagee "over and over again" like they did with Rev. Wright?
Posted by Metteyya at 05/22/2008 @ 2:19pm
It is hardly surprising to find the media (ala Keith Olbermann) and the Nation and it's leftist bloggers reacting vehemently out of ignorance to this sermon from Pastor Hagee.
First of all, while I wouldn't have taught it with quite the same application and wording as Pastor Hagee, his essential principle taught here is consistent with the Word of God and consistent with historic Rabbinic teaching (at least from Orthodoxy).
It dates all the way back to Genesis 45 and Joseph's meeting with his brother's in Egypt. That it was G-d's plan to use an evil to bring about Israel's good.
Orthodox Judaism and Evangelical Christianity share in the principle that all events are ruled by the sovereign G-d, and that He has an ultimate good planned out of even horrific events.
Secondly, within the OT and the passage in Jeremiah that is referred to, it relates how G-d allows others to conquer the Jews as punishment for idolatry and rebellion against G-d.
None of the critics bother to cite the verses preceeding those noted in this article where Israel asks G-d why they are being punished. G-d tells in Jeremiah 16:9,10
For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "Behold, I will cause to cease from this place, before your eyes and in your days, the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride. 10 "And it shall be, when you show this people all these words, and they say to you, 'Why has the LORD pronounced all this great disaster against us? Or what is our iniquity? Or what is our sin that we have committed against the LORD our God?' 11 then you shall say to them, 'Because your fathers have forsaken Me,' says the LORD; 'they have walked after other gods and have served them and worshiped them, and have forsaken Me and not kept My law. 12 And you have done worse than your fathers, for behold, each one follows the dictates of his own evil heart, so that no one listens to Me.
The OT records the numerous occasions where G-d allowed enemies overcome them and even take them into exile for hundreds of years, how they had to wander for 40 years in the desert after leaving Egypt with Mose because of rebellion.
To specifically the Holocaust, there is division among Rabbinic Scholars on this subject as evidenced from articles published on the website for Yad Vashem, the Jewish Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem.
http://yad-vashem.org.il/research_publications/research/kimmy.pdf
What we really have here is another example of the left attempting to determine what is appropriate for people of faith. These are well established beliefs with the traditions of Judaism and Christianity. They were spoken not in a political dialogue, but in the context of a worship service.
As to Pastor Hagee himself, the respect and appreciation that many in Israel hold for him is proof of the reality rather than the distortion that the left wants to depict.
Mask and others: I will respond more to you later but I must leave town for a few hours on business....been kind of a good hectic schedule lately, so I can't always respond.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 05/22/2008 @ 2:35pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 05/22/2008
If you believe this is "orthodox" Christianity to say that it was GOOD that the Jews were slaughtered in the Holocaust because it brought them back to Israel, then we probably should hear more of this "orthodox" view in the mainstream press by those who endorse McCain and learn what the American voter thinks about this orthodoxy, right?
Also, interested in whether McCain thinks "the Holocaust was good for the Jews", whether he believes this is "orthodox" Christianity, and whether he would sit in a pew and listen to a sermon on it!
Posted by Metteyya at 05/22/2008 @ 2:46pm
I think the phrase "McCain's Pastor Hagee" seems to quietly dismiss this possibility. It posits that McCain and Hagee are tied to one another in the same way that Wright and Obama are (or, perhaps now, were?). On any level, this comparison is manifestly false, so the article's title is indeed deceptive.
Posted by Thrawn at 05/22/2008
Well Thrawn I can't argue that the title is deceptive, but I thought the accusation that the author was lying was one-sided. 'McCain's Pastor Hagee' could imply only that Pastor Hagee is in McCain's camp could it not?
Further, I think we should consider the big picture. Are you claiming the McCain has had no association with Pastor Hagee, and that Hagee's endorsement is out of the blue? I just say yesterday a filmclip wherein the two men warmly embraced each other while on stage, for the whole world to see. It would seem that McCain has closer ties to Hagee than is implied by the bloggers who claim deception. If guilt by association is standard of evidence, then I think McCain's past (and current) relationship with Hagee is fair game.
Posted by OneVote at 05/22/2008 @ 3:06pm
"and other Bible believing segments of the Church"
lvliberty
so which segments of "the Church" don't believe in the bible?
Thursday, May 22, 2008 3:30:36 PM
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2008 @ 3:23pm
the Word of God
•••••••••••••••••
wait a second.
why did god write the quran if "the word of god" is already in the bible?
and why did god write the new testament if the old testament......
and why did god write all them other books?
wtf, god?
get your story straight!
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2008 @ 3:27pm
Frosty,
God also edited himself at the Council of Nicea and the meetings at Alexandria. Apparently, god did not like his original versions and needed to spice them up a bit by adding the controversial, even at the Council of Nicea, book of Revelation and removing the gnostic gospels that spoke more of love, peace and the equality of all (hu)mankind. Interesting that god would prefer to limit the "love and peace" thing to the first four books of the NT.
Posted by BizarroRio at 05/22/2008 @ 5:38pm
OneVote:
"Well Thrawn I can't argue that the title is deceptive"
Exactly. And that deception remains lo these many hours later. By now it is knowing deception. Thus, a purposeful lie by now. Not an innocent mistake.
Is every supporter of Obama's his "X?"
Can we look at Tony Rezko and say "Obama's Slumlord?"
No. Obama didn't place himself in Rezko's hands for the purpose of slumming. Unlike the possibly not so Reverend Wright, in whose kind graces Obama suckled for 20+ years.
Wright IS Obama's pastor. Hagee is a SUPPORTER of McCain. Like Hamas is a supporter of Obama.
Posted by abcloven at 05/22/2008 @ 6:00pm
<i>Posted by OneVote at 05/22/2008</i>
I actually don't think that "McCain's Pastor Hagee" could imply merely that Hagee was a supporter of McCain anymore than "Obama's Pastor Wright" would be read as anything other than a statement that Wright was Obama's pastor. Intuitively, "X's Pastor Y" seems to suggest that Y is indeed X's pastor. In the statement "X's Pastor Y," the word Pastor seems to serve two functions. It both designates the "rank" (to use a very rough term) of Y AND Y's relationship to X (in large part due to the possessive "X's").
That said, I don't want to dismiss the concerns that people have expressed regarding Hagee's connections to McCain. I'm inclined to be somewhat doubtful of them due to the apparent political motivations behind them, but I do think nonetheless that they should be given careful attention.
Also, though I can understand the reticence of many on these boards to directly engage Hagee's views, I think that their significance in political dialogue requires that they be met head-on, on their own terms. So, that said, I want to tackle Liberty's analysis.
He aims to provide four independent warrants for the Rapture, none of them compelling. As a broad overview (and I can go into further depth if Liberty chooses to engage me), none of these can clearly be said to refer to our own time or anything close to it. Much of Revelation for instance, was written to comfort Christians living under the oppression of the Roman Empire, and to assure them that this empire would not last forever. Similarly, many of the OT passages (the Daniel passage especially) refer to regimes that existed AT THAT TIME (i.e. the "king of the north" and "king of the south").
The Gospel passages aren't any more helpful for Liberty, for at least two reasons. First, Jesus explicitly says that he cannot tell the disciples when he will return, meaning that any "end times" prophecies should immediately be regarded as suspect at best. Second, the positive warrants in the Gospels are virtually nonexistent; all that's said in there is that they will be persecuted, but their redemption (heaven, perhaps?) will come.
In fact, you have a pretty huge problem if you try to read this as an end-times prediction: we're still here. Jesus explicitly said that this generation would not pass away before the changes he talked about took place, and if you actually contend that those changes were the end-times, then you have a real problem on your hands.
This is why I always get frustrated with end-times predictions. People always, and they've done this for thousands of years now, yank verses or even chapters out of their particular historical and theological contexts to construct detailed analyses of exactly what the end-times would look like (and, often, when it would happen). Though their repeated failures should speak to the wisdom of end-times speculation, it unfortunately still exists, and should be confronted.
Posted by Thrawn at 05/22/2008 @ 6:38pm
Wright IS Obama's pastor. Hagee is a SUPPORTER of McCain. Like Hamas is a supporter of Obama.
Posted by abcloven at 05/22/2008
By now you should know that even MCain disagrees with you. Hagee has been dumped. Not only did McCain reject endorsrement but instructed Hagee to withdraw his endorsement. Pretty much this association is considered by McCain's political handlers to be poison. Can't wait to find out more details on the special interest groups that are fronting the McCain candidacy. Hmmmm....wonder if the Saudi's have pitched in knowing McCain will willingly protect their sorry asses with our defense budget while they refuse to increase production of oil....my...my....my....should be interesting.
By the way, Obama spoke in Boca Raton today in a synagogue. Seems to me that informed Jewish voters aren't buying the Hamas spin, and they warmly welcomed and cheered him on. He will be friend of Israel, and Jewish voters are going to increasingly come to him once Clinton drops out the race. While security of Israel is important, Jewish voters in this Country want a change big time too and the Jewish community is plenty pissed that the Republicans have strengthened Iran, weakened our military, made Iraq a powderkeg, and squandered our resources. Intelligent voters will vote Obama -- and South Florida will be no exception. Extremists like Hagee represent nothing other than the nutjobs who attend his church. Interfaith Alliance was going to bring him down if McCain didn't pull the trigger himself today. A good day for both faith and reason I would say!!|
Posted by OneVote at 05/22/2008 @ 6:42pm
If you believe this is "orthodox" Christianity to say that it was GOOD that the Jews were slaughtered in the Holocaust because it brought them back to Israel, then we probably should hear more of this "orthodox" view in the mainstream press by those who endorse McCain and learn what the American voter thinks about this orthodoxy, right?
Also, interested in whether McCain thinks "the Holocaust was good for the Jews", whether he believes this is "orthodox" Christianity, and whether he would sit in a pew and listen to a sermon on it!
Posted by Metteyya at 05/22/2008 | ignore this person | warn this person
Nowhere did I say that it was good that the Jews were slaughtered. That is an outright lie and typical of the twisting and distortions of the left.
I said that in orthodox Christianity and Orthodox Judaism, it is that G-d is sovereign and brings good from these things. I even cited how Rabbinic teaching cites all the way back to the story of Joseph and his meeting with his brothers in Genesis chapter 45. They sold him into slavery in Egypt to get rid of him. He rose to a position of authority which enabled him to later save his family.
What was intended for evil, G-d used to bring about good. This theme is seen throughout the OT. Even in those instances like Jeremiah 16 which was the topic of Pastor Hagee's sermon.
But you and many on the left would prefer to lie and distort what people are actually saying.
You only affirm what I charged earlier today. Many on the left want to use these issues to try and dictate what we can believe as Christians and Jews.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 05/22/2008 @ 11:53pm
I'm sorry that McCain took the usual political out regarding Pastor's Hagee and Parsley.
There is not much difference in Pastor Hagee's remarks that have been cited from that which is taught in most Evangelical churches every week.
And while Pastor Parsley was wrong about America being a Christian nation and created to destroy Islam, he certainly isn't wrong about the evil of Islam and it's intentions from the beginning to destroy Judaism and Christianity.
As I remarked to a number of other Christians today, the warnings I have been giving for over a year are beginning to come to the surface. The anti-Christian, and anti G-d in general crowd is feeling emboldened to begin attacking Christianity on a level this country has never witnessed.
I actually welcome this because it once again proves a prophetic word from Jesus to be true. John 15:18-25
"If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, 'They hated Me without a cause.'
Posted by lvliberty1 at 05/23/2008 @ 12:11am
You only affirm what I charged earlier today. Many on the left want to use these issues to try and dictate what we can believe as Christians and Jews.
Posted by lvliberty1
this is very ironic.
i bet you're afraid the commie obama is going to order solely the teaching of "abstinence only religion" in schools.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/23/2008 @ 04:31am
the evils of islam......
eeeeeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkk!!!!!!!!!
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/23/2008 @ 04:31am
As I remarked to a number of other Christians today, the warnings I have been giving for over a year are beginning to come to the surface. The anti-Christian, and anti G-d in general crowd is feeling emboldened to begin attacking Christianity on a level this country has never witnessed.
•••••••••••••••••
i think you better lay of the peyote.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/23/2008 @ 04:44am
off
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/23/2008 @ 05:02am
HAHAHAHAHA
oh man! even when they try to explain themselves, it just gets weirder and weirder.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster says...
Zeus said...
Thor told us in the Eddas...
Well said here by Carol [" Its like a freaking child blaming an imaginary friend."]
Who is your imaginary friend?
Posted by crabwalk at 05/23/2008 @ 10:40am
LvLiberty-Claiming that Christians are under attack and hated is just one more thing that you people have made up in order to pretend that the teaching is true.You are not being persecuted nor are you hated.In fact,you guys are the ones who spew the most hate and do the judging and condemning.Jesus told you to seek the truth and did not say that you should make things up in order to pretend it's true.Christianity is the worlds largest religion and you are not persecuted,but you do persecute others that disagree with you.You are doing what your kind likes to do and that is, point the finger at others.
Posted by i'm nobody at 05/23/2008 @ 10:48am
Oh man...so three things worth noting.
1) Liberty hasn't touched any of the end-times stuff, which is actually a little surprising.
2) I think Nobody is partially right here. I'd be careful, because it IS true that Christians are persecuted in many countries where they are the majority religion. This is certainly not exclusive to Christianity, granted, and sometimes it's Christians persecuting other Christians or Christians persecuting other religions, but persecution still remains a fact in many countries.
That said, though, the idea that Christians are being systematically persecuted in the US is pretty out there. Seriously? As Jon Stewart pointed out, how many Presidents have been Christian, again? All of them. Frankly, I don't think ANY religion in the status quo US can honestly claim true persecution, much less Christianity. Granted, Christians have too often been voices of intolerance rather than of love for neighbor, and that's something that needs to be addressed.
Posted by Thrawn at 05/23/2008 @ 11:27am
Sorry; when I said three, I meant two. I promise I can do math...
Posted by Thrawn at 05/23/2008 @ 11:28am
Granted, Christians have too often been voices of intolerance rather than of love for neighbor, and that's something that needs to be addressed.
Posted by Thrawn at 05/23/2008
I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. I think everyone wants to play the victim, everyone wants to play like they are being persecuted because no one can open there eyes and see that things are worse for other people.
I think it is a very American thing to want to play the victim because America is all about rooting for the underdog, which is funny because America is THE superpower.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 05/23/2008 @ 11:47am
"Also, though I can understand the reticence of many on these boards to directly engage Hagee's views, I think that their significance in political dialogue requires that they be met head-on, on their own terms. So, that said, I want to tackle Liberty's analysis."
Posted by Thrawn at 05/22/2008 | ignore this person | warn this person
Whatever happened to separation of church and state? I don't need to or want to hear any Sunday school crap from Elmer Gantrys who are here to push their political agenda. Saw Jesse Ventura last night on the boob tube. He thinks all these so called religious leaders who are pushing their political agenda under the guise of being religious leaders should have their tax exemptions revoked. I would include LivLib in that category. He spends more time here than he does attending to god's and charitable work. LivLib supports a war that other should pay for, not him. What hypocrisy! If you want to humor him...fine. Nothing you say or do will ever change a fanatic's mind.
Posted by OneVote at 05/23/2008 @ 1:32pm
He thinks all these so called religious leaders who are pushing their political agenda under the guise of being religious leaders should have their tax exemptions revoked. I would include LivLib in that category. He spends more time here than he does attending to god's and charitable work. LivLib supports a war that other should pay for, not him. What hypocrisy! If you want to humor him...fine. Nothing you say or do will ever change a fanatic's mind.
Posted by OneVote at 05/23/2008
So pastors have no right to participate in the political process or dialogue in this country?
Secondly, on what basis would you see to have my tax exemption revoked?
You seem to suggest it is because of the amount of time I spend here blogging. Want to cite a legal justification for that revocation?
Posted by lvliberty1 at 05/25/2008 @ 8:47pm