Some Sanity When It Comes to the "War" on Drugs

In a bold step forward in the campaign to reduce the damage the war on drugs is causing, the U.S. Sentencing Commission voted unanimously today to make a recent amendment reducing recommended sentences for crack cocaine offenses retroactive. The decision come a day after the US Supreme Court ruled that federal judges can sentence individuals below the guideline recommendations in crack cocaine cases.

The sentencing commission's decision means that up to 19,400 currently incarcerated people will be eligible for early release. "The government has spent hundreds of billions of dollars and incarcerated millions of Americans --disproportionately black or brown Americans--yet drugs are as available as ever," said Bill Piper, national affairs director of the Drug Policy Alliance. "It's time to start treating drug use as a health issue instead of a criminal justice issue."

While the three leading Presidential candidates support ending the sentencing disparity that punishes crack cocaine offenses one hundred times more severely than powder cocaine offenses --(although Clinton is the only one, based on a recent report, who opposes retroactivity) the House Democratic leadership, according to the Drug Policy Aliance's Piper, has posed "the biggest obstacle to eliminating the racist/crack/powder disparity." (The House leadership has reportedly prohibited committees from dealing with the issue.) In the Senate, on the other hand, Senator Joe Biden has a bill to completely eliminate the disparity; and two Republican bills reduce the disparity, but do not elmininate it. Hearings are expected in February. (Write your Representative and urge them to demand hearings so as to send a clear signal that they care about reducing racial disparities.

It's time to end this senseless war on drugs which has filled our prisons, fattened our prison-industrial complex and incarcerated too many people of color.

Comments (202)

1. "The government has spent hundreds of billions of dollars and incarcerated millions of Americans --disproportionately black or brown Americans--yet drugs are as available as ever," said Bill Piper, national affairs director of the Drug Policy Alliance. "It's time to start treating drug use as a health issue instead of a criminal justice issue."

   Or...how about both? It seems, for example, like punishing drug dealers is probably still a good idea...

   Posted by Thrawn at 12/11/2007 @ 6:36pm

2. Why not decriminalize all drugs? Alcohol is a horrible, addictive, destructive drug, and yet it's legal. Why not treat all drugs this way, let people decide whether or how they want to screw up their lives, meanwhile tax the shit out of the drug sales. Why wouldn't we want to eliminate the black market for drug sales? I guess I can think of a few reasons.

   Posted by MATTMAN at 12/11/2007 @ 6:37pm

3. There you go again, trying to do further damage to the Wisconsin economy. We replaced our NAFTA gone manufacturing base with what we saw as a true 21st century growth industry - incarceration. Gee, if we can't rely on the guvment to supply our state run bed and breakfast industry, from the Club Fed that former Illinois Governor Ryan now calls his home away from home, to the temporary lodgings afforded Mr. Dahmer at the Supermax and a host of boarding house opportunities in-between, we just can't seem to find our niche in the new ownership society.

   I suppose that there are those who might counsel us to invest in small arms manufacture now that criminals are going to be released en masse. I hope the startup costs don't create an additional tax burden due to the tax incentives with which we are going to have to bribe industry in order to have our economy further strip mined.

   Cheese ;-)

   Posted by canaar at 12/11/2007 @ 6:45pm

4. Posted by THRAWN 12/11/2007 @ 6:36pm

   A capital idea. We can turn those empty rooms into cyclical rehab centers. Dealers in on one end and users in on the other. Almost as good as perpetual motion machinery.

   Posted by canaar at 12/11/2007 @ 6:47pm

5. Somebody run the numbers, but the War on Drugs has STILL got to top Iraq as the biggest waste of money, even manpower, in the history of the world.

   End it now. You could put HALF the DEA budget into treatment centers and do 1000% more good.

   The Onion had it right several years ago when Barry McCaffrey was Drug Czar...

   "Drug War Over!--Drugs Won!"

   Posted by Mask at 12/11/2007 @ 7:42pm

6. Look at Europe! Decriminalization of drugs works. Holland has a lower per-capita drug use rate than the US, despite the semi-legal status of soft drugs.

   Also, their "treatment oriented" approach to drugs is a much more compassionate (and less expensive) approach to the issue, as locking up non-violent people is very backward and unsophisticated. Prisons should be to house violent people who "force" their way on innocent people.

   For every drug dealer who is arrested and incarcerated, three more are taking their place. And for every drug user who is incarcerated but not treated, millions of dollars have been wasted as this person will most likely use again.

   The demand is what is driving drug use, not supply. Focusing on supply, only satisfies the desires of "angry white men" who cannot stand the thought of black and brown people making large sums of money off their white kids.

   Posted by Metteyya at 12/11/2007 @ 7:56pm

7. "Why not decriminalize all drugs?"

   Posted by MATTMAN 12/11/2007 @ 6:37pm

   Do you honestly think things will go OK after that? Where are you going to get the personnel to treat all the "users" and "dealers"? How are you going to pay them? The feds?, the State? They don't pay much and training clinical psychologists takes years. It's not like the public school system where you can throw some recent grad, with no experience, into a six month fast-track program and dump them into a poor performing school and call them teachers.

   Posted by ACook at 12/11/2007 @ 8:28pm

8. Posted by METTEYYA 12/11/2007 @ 7:56pm

   METT, Europe is not perfect. FYI, cannabis is "tolerated" by the local government but it's still illegal if caught with more than 500 grams. Hard drugs are illegal as well.

   As for focusing on the demand side of the illecit drug trade, how do you propose to deal with the Mexican and Columbian drug lords? Do we pay them at wholesale or retail price?

   Posted by ACook at 12/11/2007 @ 9:06pm

9. Posted by ZERO 12/11/2007 @ 8:58pm

   ZERO, even if drugs were legal, the addiction rates won't change. Come work with me in the ICU and you'll see what I mean. We had 4 addicts came through the ICU in the last 6 weeks and one of them flatlined. ER docs got him back, but he hasn't woken up yet.

   Posted by ACook at 12/11/2007 @ 9:29pm

10. My father used to say, when he heard the stats for high school drop outs, "there's one less group you'll have to compete with to be succeed in this life." When I hear people advocating relaxed drug laws and punishments I am sad to hear myself say, "OK, that's one less group my kids will have to compete with." I will take limited success to unlimited misery.

    Posted by Econ Major at 12/11/2007 @ 9:42pm

11. somebody run the numbers..............

    Posted by MASK 12/11/2007 @ 7:42pm

    Drug War Clock

    It is Tue Dec 11 2007

    Money Spent on the War On Drugs this Year

    Federal $18,985,000,000

    State $29,142,000,000

    Total $48,127,000,000

    check out the nifty war on drugs $$$$ clock. [drugsense.org]

    hey, here's another one:

    Grand Totals $1,330.490,000,000

    http://www.briancbennett.com/charts/fed-data/costs/real-costs05.htm

    hey that's more than iraq (AND it's only from 1992 -- 2002!!!)

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/11/2007 @ 9:46pm

12. Zero, I read an article about a week or so ago about San Francisco doing the same thing - providing a safe place for junkies to shoot up while fostering an anti-addiction atmosphere. That's an interesting concept. At first I was like, "WTF?" but the more I thought about it, the more out-of-the-box thinking it seemed.

    I'm a supporter of M.A.P.S. [maps.org] but I'd rather see drugs decriminalized for psychological study rather than recreational use.

    Posted by FritztheCat at 12/11/2007 @ 9:46pm

13. Posted by ZERO 12/11/2007 @ 8:58pm

    the vancouver program's great, but viceroy harper wants to end that, too.

    Despite evidence of continuing HIV transmission among IDUs nationally,10 this government recently announced that no federal funds would be directed to support the operation of needle exchange programs in Canada or the supervised injection facility in Vancouver.11-13

    The government has also taken steps apparently aimed at eliminating harm reduction strategies. As part of this effort, the existing Canada's Drug Strategy (CDS) is being replaced with the new Anti-Drug Strategy which has been described as focusing on enforcement, prevention and treatment interventions.13 Harm reduction is no longer part of the strategy, a worrisome departure from the CDS's traditional approach: "Because substance abuse is primarily a health issue rather than an enforcement issue, harm reduction is considered to be a realistic, pragmatic, and humane approach."

    read full sept. 2007 report here. [tinyurl.com]

    HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/11/2007 @ 9:52pm

14. here in canada,

    the biggest drug dealer is the government.

    TAXES! on nicotine and alcohol (not to mention caffeine).

    why is tobacco legal and pot not?

    because pot is easy to grow, so anybody can do it, and therefore becomes a taxation problem.

    tobacco, however is very hard to grow.

    our government draws a fine cost/"benefit" line between the revenue from tobacco sales and the expenditure for health care for tobacco's victims.

    read this: http://www.mindfully.org/Health/Tobacco-Helps-Economy.htm

    for troubling insight into this phenomenon.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/11/2007 @ 9:59pm

15. cats use catnip.

    goats eat coffee beans.

    cows eat rotten apples.

    people eat oxycontin.

    fruit flies drink wine.

    crows eat rotten cherries.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/11/2007 @ 10:02pm

16. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/11/2007 @ 9:52pm

    FZ, even though you guys have treatment centers for everybody under the sun, what are the numbers on how many users (hard and soft core) are drug free past 2 years? My guess is the numbers are kinda low. Most users trumble off the wagon and roll down the hill before a year is up. Once addicted it's hard to come clean.

    Posted by ACook at 12/11/2007 @ 10:07pm

17. ACOOK....do you really think the Drug War ...is being "won"?

    Or that over 48 BILLION a year (FZ's numbers) has shown itself worthwile for the money spent?

    Come on...you're a conservative. If a LIBERAL program spent 48 Billion a year, and the problem incrementally got worse (certainly never better) you'd (rightfully) scream bloody murder and demand it cut.

    Posted by Mask at 12/11/2007 @ 10:17pm

18. Posted by ACOOK 12/11/2007 @ 10:07pm

    well, as you can see from the above mentioned article, our bushified federal government wants to lock 'em up.

    you know, as a musician, i have had friends fall into all sorts of dreadful addictions.

    but the most difficult to kick:

    tobacco.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/11/2007 @ 10:18pm

19. 2007 - 1992 = 15 years x say, $50,000,000,000/year = $750,000,000,000

    damn!

    someone's making some good coin from this farce.

    you could have invaded libya or syria for that price.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/11/2007 @ 10:22pm

20. My father used to say, when he heard the stats for high school drop outs, "there's one less group you'll have to compete with to be succeed in this life." ECON MAJOR Was your father illiterate or did you just butcher his petty, myopic, self serving quote. Nice handle you douchebag- wow, I sure wish I had my college major as my web moniker- such originality! I don't really condemn you, or even hold you responsible for your bland idiocy- given your father's quote, the condition is obviosly genetic, exacerbated by the no doubt tepid intellectual environment you were born into and obviously continue to fester in.

    The war on drugs is a sad joke- decriminalize all drugs and the profit for organized criminal elements will wane. Also, the street price of said drugs will fall, so addicts will be less inclined to rob well meaning suburban dipshits like ECON MAJOR in order to pay for their next fix. As others have said, treat it as the disease it is instead of using it to incarcerate more people per capita than any other nation on earth, and to piss away billions more to the authoritarian "masters of (perpetual) war."

    Posted by entropy at 12/11/2007 @ 10:46pm

21. ACOOK Doesn't "believe" that humans are primates. Please disregard all of "ACOOK's" posts due to his/her manifest stupidity. Thank You.

    Posted by entropy at 12/11/2007 @ 10:49pm

22. Posted by MASK 12/11/2007 @ 10:17pm

    Mask, it's not what I think, it's what I see. Addiction tears apart lives and families. There are no winners. I know you libs feel that decriminalizing will help "save" lives, but I gotta be honest and say I have no faith in the rehab system period.

    Posted by ACook at 12/11/2007 @ 11:10pm

23. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/11/2007 @ 10:18pm

    Tell me FZ, how many of your friends have been clean and sober over 5 years?

    Posted by ACook at 12/11/2007 @ 11:11pm

24. Posted by ENTROPY 12/11/2007 @ 10:49pm

    For starters, I'm a woman, and no I don't believe I'm a primate. Now, if you consider yourself something different and furry, I have no issue with it. And, as far as you ignoring me, go right ahead and click that mouse of yours. As a matter of fact, I would be totally honored if you ignored my posts.

    Posted by ACook at 12/11/2007 @ 11:18pm

25. Tell me FZ, how many of your friends have been clean and sober over 5 years?

    Posted by ACOOK 12/11/2007 @ 11:11pm

    it comes, it goes.

    it's quite sad sometimes.

    some quit for a long time, others "quit" for a week.

    my mom had an addiction to tranquillizers. should she have gone to jail?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/11/2007 @ 11:21pm

26. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/11/2007 @ 11:21pm

    FZ, no, I wouldn't send your mom to jail, but my heart breaks everytime I hear stories that involve drug and alcohol addiction. Few people are able to crawl out of that abyss.

    Is she better now?

    Posted by ACook at 12/11/2007 @ 11:37pm

27. Is she better now?

    Posted by ACOOK 12/11/2007 @ 11:37pm

    well, that becomes a theological question now.

    my mom (pbuh) did quit (almost) the pills but she died a couple years later of a broken heart.

    thanks for asking.

    btw it serves no purpose to differentiate between "drugs" and "alcohol".

    alcohol is a very dangerous drug and should be named as such.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/11/2007 @ 11:43pm

28. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/11/2007 @ 11:43pm

    :( ....I'll keep you and your family in my prayers.

    And, you're right...alcohol is a drug.

    Posted by ACook at 12/11/2007 @ 11:54pm

29. Posted by ENTROPY 12/11/2007 @ 10:46pm – in part:

    "Was your father illiterate or did you just butcher his petty, myopic, self serving quote"

    1) In fact, it was a typo on my part and I apologize to the one person who did not realize that minor fact.

    2) Who implied that my college major was economics? Perhaps it is just a major interest of mine.

    3) Where in my comments did you divine the idea that I was more concerned for the safety of my property than the cost of, at this point, illegal drugs?

    4) And to the point of legalizing drugs and the cost coming down, there are non-pecuniary costs attributed to all behaviors. These are sometimes referred to as opportunity costs; what could I have accomplished if I wasn't so high? Also, it is naïve to think government intervention/regulation in the legalization of drugs will lower the cost. Government has regulated tobacco for decades; where has the price gone? Where will that cost fall? On the already ravaged community where the (now legal) drug use/abuse is occurring.

    Posted by Econ Major at 12/11/2007 @ 11:57pm

30. ...but I gotta be honest and say I have no faith in the rehab system period.

    Posted by ACOOK 12/11/2007 @ 11:10pm | ignore this person

    Do you realize that you have substituted "faith in the rehab system" with faith in the criminal justice system...and faith in the prison system?

    Do you actually believe that those 'systems' are a better way to deal with addiction?

    Posted by Lillian at 12/12/2007 @ 12:04am

31. Posted by ECON MAJOR 12/11/2007 @ 11:57pm

    ECON, he won't respond but I do agree with your assessment.

    Posted by ACook at 12/12/2007 @ 12:07am

32. Posted by LILLIAN 12/12/2007 @ 12:04am

    Lillian, I have no faith in either the criminal justice or prison systems. Both cost my brother and several dear friends their lives.

    Posted by ACook at 12/12/2007 @ 12:13am

33. The differences between crack and powder cocaine are socio economic differences, between people that purchase a product that is probably 10 times less costly than the other. One is in the streets, the other probably delivered to a PO Box.

    Getting hard on crack is prosecuting this social strata that has the less opportunities to make it in life and the worst temptations and examples. On the other hand being lenient to powder sends a powerful message that if you have money 'private' criminal conduct may be tolerable.

    Maybe we will never be able to completely erradicate cocaine from our streets but surely we should make our biggest efforts to give most of the people a sense of purpose to live, a feeling there is always opportunities. And that we can if there was less inequalities, like the one between powder and crack.

    Posted by Frank42 at 12/12/2007 @ 12:37am

34. On the already ravaged community where the (now legal) drug use/abuse is occurring.

    Posted by ECON MAJOR 12/11/2007 @ 11:57pm

    actually, i would say that people are high on this or that at every level of the economic scale in equal numbers.

    and that's a lot of people.

    had any coffee lately?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 12:59am

35. Posted by FRANK42 12/12/2007 @ 12:37am

    you know,

    indigenous people have used coca leaves for centuries. [en.wikipedia.org]

    they don't carjack.

    too bad:

    coca's turning point in europe came in 1860 when albert niemann extracted pure cocaine powder from coca leaves.

    pandora's leaf.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 01:11am

36. i have a question: why is the word "disproportionate" used to describe the number of blacks and latinos incarcerated for crack cocaine? it's not 'disproportionate'; it is, in fact, 'proportionate', as most white people do not smoke crack, for whatever reason.

    this is not a race issue. if someone uses drugs, that is their choice, and nobody else's.

    and as far as zero's comments, i'm in full agreement.

    Posted by darladoon at 12/12/2007 @ 01:59am

37. Mask, it's not what I think, it's what I see.----Posted by ACOOK 12/11/2007 @ 11:10pm

    Can't you do both? It might help to come up with more effective solutions.

    Posted by Mask at 12/12/2007 @ 07:20am

38. why is tobacco legal and pot not?

    because pot is easy to grow, so anybody can do it, and therefore becomes a taxation problem.

    tobacco, however is very hard to grow.

    Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/11/2007 @ 9:59pm

    Frosty's right. That's exactly why it won't be legalized.

    Posted by Sliver at 12/12/2007 @ 08:21am

39. That's exactly why it won't be legalized.----Posted by SLIVER 12/12/2007 @ 08:21am

    Yeah, it will...and the trends pretty indictative of that.

    Look, pre-1992, it would have been the death-knell of a Presidential candidate to admit to have even TRIED marijuana. Clinton pulls his waffley "I didn't inhale"...nobody believed him...but it didn't matter. He got elected and re-elected.

    Obama already laying the groundwork for pretty casual use of drugs "in his youth" and he's threatening Her Majesty still.

    Eventually we get a string of candidates who say "Sure, I smoked pot...who didn't?" and nothing happens to their careers. INCLUDING a few Republicans. Eventually SOMEBODY makes the case I made, that Left or Right, if you spend $48 Billion a year on a problem...and it not only doesn't get better, it often gets worse....you cut your losses and try something new.

    Like Clinton on welfare reform...it'll take a Repub to reform the "Drug War"...but eventually, one will. Ultimately...it just makes more FINANCIAL sense.

    Posted by Mask at 12/12/2007 @ 09:51am

40. Lillian, I have no faith in either the criminal justice or prison systems. Both cost my brother and several dear friends their lives.

    Posted by ACOOK 12/12/2007 @ 12:13am | ignore this person

    Do you actually believe that those 'systems' are a better way to deal with addiction?

    Posted by LILLIAN 12/12/2007 @ 12:04am | ignore this person

    Posted by Lillian at 12/12/2007 @ 09:57am

41. Back in the 1980s, Authoritarian people thought they were so smart, thought they were geniuses, talking about "we got to get tough" on Americans who need help. Authoritarianism was the big craze, everyone was saying punish the drug addict. TURNS OUT, Authoritarians were idiots - real stupid people - real idiotic judgmental shhit-for-brains dumbshhits.

    George Bush is not an anomaly, George Bush is the culmination, the evolution, of Conservative dumbshhitism. George Bush's wars based on lies are built on the Authoritarian principles the Ronald Reagan established with his war based on lies against Middle-class Americans, Poor Americans, White Americans, Colored Americans - who didn't attack anybody - Conservative Authoritarians talk about how these are bad Americans who we got to throw the key away - but what it really is, is other Americans who just need help.

    Posted by conshame at 12/12/2007 @ 10:08am

42. These days the Authoritarians are going after the illegal immigrants - keep hiring them as landscapers - keep hiring them as housekeepers - keep shopping at the supermarket produce section. But - it's a crisis! The disaster in Iraq is okay - keep sending hundreds billions of dollars there. Don't worry about what George Bush is doing to fucck up America - keep saying the prayer for Bush when you go to right-wing Church - it's those illegal immigrants working Romney and Giuliani and Huckabee's homes we got to worry about, why, they're a crisis. IT'S A CRISIS.

    Posted by conshame at 12/12/2007 @ 10:13am

43. Posted by CONSHAME 12/12/2007 @ 10:08am Posted by CONSHAME 12/12/2007 @ 10:13am

    Please tell us that you're NOT a postal employee.

    MASK...you may be proven correct, eventually. Whether this is considered under States rights or Federally would probably make the difference in it's passage. At this point in time, my state hasn't given the go-ahead to wrest control of their gambling cartel known as the Lottery, save for a few horse-tracks, which are full of derelicts anyway. Individually, people may want the drug laws relaxed, but governmentally may be a different story.

    Given the natural progression of things as you stated (for better or worse), where does a society draw a moral line in the sand? 25 years from now, do we allow pedophiles to marry their victims, since it's cheaper than treatment or incarceration? Can't wait to see MTV's "Who wants to marry a 5 year old". Sounds fairly knee-jerk now, but we have so much "tolerance" these days that even defining one's gender has almost become a hate crime in some places.

    Posted by Sliver at 12/12/2007 @ 10:40am

44. The only thing that this would change would be the old "subsidize the costs and privatize the profits" paradigm. The govt. would be the beneficiary at a cost to the taxpayers (customers), which is the way that alcohol is treated these days.

    Posted by Sliver at 12/12/2007 @ 10:46am

45. ANTHONY DiMAGGIO CounterPunch.org 26 June 2007

    'The Bush administration's successes in appointing its preferred nominees to the Supreme Court appear to have paid off in light of the judicial body's recent rulings...'

    'Don't criticize what you can't understand.' - Robert Allen Zimmerman (Bob Dylan) 'Paredon!' - Ernesto 'El Carnifero' Guevara............................ ..................................... .. 'Lan Astaslem' - T-shirt, protestor at WTC rally

    Posted by HonestLiberal at 12/12/2007 @ 11:07am

46. ACOOK is simply showing what a little bit of specialized knowledge and a whole lot of general ignorance can do.

    Making assertions about what would happen, especially in the face of real-world empirical evidence (like from Canada, Holland, etc.) is the height of either pure dishonesty, or blind faith, neither of which is a good thing.

    I am sorry about what happened to your brother... it was your brother, right? Things happen. That's cold comfort, I realize. But to allow that to blind you to the truth is wrong.

    Here's the real reason drugs will never be legalized in this country, and most others. The illicit drug trade props up the world markets. It subsidizes the military/police/prison/industrial/financial complex. It's all about money. Period. If drugs were decriminalized in the US, our markets would crash, falling faster than panties on prom night. The US would no longer be able to fund most of its black bag/off-record operations, and the major banks, from CITI to Deutsche Bank would essentially collapse. If you pull the plug on all that extra currency in the market, it will cause the worst worldwide financial depression this world has ever seen.

    Posted by jorcheim at 12/12/2007 @ 12:38pm

47. Posted by SLIVER 12/12/2007 @ 10:40am

    Yes, SLIVER, because "obviously" the progression from legalizing a drug (or drugs) millions of people use and have used, and will use regardless of criminality...

    is in direct proportion to decriminalizing child rape.

    Were you oxygen-deprived at birth or something?

    Posted by Mask at 12/12/2007 @ 12:41pm

48. KVH would not know sanity if it bit her in the ass.----Posted by MARKCANYON 12/12/2007 @ 12:16pm

    Something bit MARKHIMMLER in the ass....it'd have to get past his shoulders and neck!

    Posted by Mask at 12/12/2007 @ 12:42pm

49. MASK:

    I was about to ask the same thing. SLIVER's comment takes home the gold star for worst comment of the day... and the day isn't even half over yet.

    Posted by jorcheim at 12/12/2007 @ 12:51pm

50. MARKCANYON:

    Care to actually make a point, as opposed to just slinging shit around here? Anyone can sit there and hurl insults. Can you actually back up your claim with a cogent and valid argument?

    Posted by jorcheim at 12/12/2007 @ 12:53pm

51. Posted by MASK 12/12/2007 @ 12:41pm

    What's the difference? They're both illegal activities at this point...or have I missed something else? Nice to see that you do draw a moral distinction. I'm not so sure that future generations will, given our progressions. Blame Elvis...he never should have swiveled his hips 50 years ago (sarcasm).

    See Mask, even YOU feel that it sounds crazy now, while some felt that way about a minority or female President not that long ago.

    Posted by Sliver at 12/12/2007 @ 1:18pm

52. Yes, SLIVER, because "obviously" the progression from legalizing a drug (or drugs) millions of people use and have used, and will use regardless of criminality...

    is in direct proportion to decriminalizing child rape.

    Actually, the "in direct proportion to" was your addition, not mine. Just making an analogy.

    Posted by Sliver at 12/12/2007 @ 1:20pm

53. Posted by ACOOK 12/11/2007 @ 9:06pm

    ACook,

    Who cares about so-called Mexican and Columbian drug lords? If you wiped every one of them out, they would be replaced in a matter of days.

    Like I said, demand is what is driving this; and with this huge demand, you are "always" going to get people to take a penitentiary risk to meet this demand at a huge profit. This is particularly true in the inner city, where hopelessness abounds, and lottery ticket sales are higher than anywhere else. The chances of winning the lottery are less than getting struck by lightning TWICE, yet people still play. The odds of serving serious prison time are also very high if you sell drugs, but when you have few to no options to make serious money, this risk does not factor in at all.

    Changing the education environment, especially in the Inner-city, so kids have real options to live meaningful lives with dignity is the answer. When schools become little more than babysitter services, then the education route does not appear to be a viable option to escape poverty and become part of mainstream America.

    Posted by Metteyya at 12/12/2007 @ 1:22pm

54. SLIVER:

    So wait... you were being facetious with that comment about child molesters?

    If so, that's pretty crafty, getting MASK to admit grades of morality.

    If not... I stand by my previous comment.

    Posted by jorcheim at 12/12/2007 @ 1:29pm

55. What's the difference? They're both illegal activities at this point...or have I missed something else?-----Posted by SLIVER 12/12/2007 @ 1:18pm

    You've missed something. Prohibition made alcohol sales illegal...when they passed the 21st Amendment recinding it....did that automatically would make RAPE LEGAL?

    And do you suppose pre-1933, that before Prohibition was lifted somebody said "They're both illegal activities at this point...or have I missed something else?" and made the "analogy" that if we ended Prohibition, the next step would be the legalization of sexual assault?

    And do you suppose that people laughed their asses off at him TOO?

    LOL!

    Posted by Mask at 12/12/2007 @ 1:36pm

56. Posted by JORCHEIM 12/12/2007 @ 1:29pm

    I don't think he's that subtle, JORCH.

    Posted by Mask at 12/12/2007 @ 1:37pm

57. BTW, how did America survive before 1937?

    1937?....yes, when they passed the Marijuana Tax Act.

    See, before that, cannibis was sold OPENLY in US stores (as well as much of the world).

    Posted by Mask at 12/12/2007 @ 1:40pm

58. Posted by MASK 12/12/2007 @ 1:36pm

    Well, I suppose that ANALOGIES are beyond your realm, since you can't distinguish between the two, so that all things are directly proportional.

    Tell you what...save my post for your little Raymond Babbit daily reader, and I'll get back to you in 2022..K? You may have to translate it to Spanish by then <--- ANALOGY ALERT

    Posted by Sliver at 12/12/2007 @ 1:42pm

59. REINSTATE PROHIBITION!

    that's what made my city great!

    please, fix our economy.

    REINSTATE PROHIBITION!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 1:43pm

60. Posted by SLIVER 12/12/2007 @ 1:42pm

    pot -- illegal.

    assault rifles -- legal.

    well, as we can see the priorities are already lined up.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 1:45pm

61. How many guns do you own Frosty? Or are you not allowed to have them. I'm pretty well versed on guns and own several. Can you define what an "assault rifle" is? And how many kids get killed on their bikes by assault rifles vs stoners who drive? Priorities, man.

    Posted by Sliver at 12/12/2007 @ 1:54pm

62. FROSTY ZOOM:

    I love you, man. Zingers from the land that vulture capitalism (almost) forgot.

    Posted by jorcheim at 12/12/2007 @ 1:56pm

63. SLIVER:

    Actually, the incidence of accidents by people who are high is statistically insignificant when compared to those who drive under the influence of alcohol. Furthermore, there have been studies that show routinely that motor skills and coordination do not necessarily become worse under the influence of cannabis. The same cannot be said for alcohol.

    Posted by jorcheim at 12/12/2007 @ 2:00pm

64. How many guns do you own Frosty? Or are you not allowed to have them. I'm pretty well versed on guns and own several. Can you define what an "assault rifle" is? And how many kids get killed on their bikes by assault rifles vs stoners who drive? Priorities, man.

    Posted by SLIVER 12/12/2007 @ 1:54pm

    i can own a gun but choose not to.

    yuck!

    you asked for it:

    Primary school incidents

    Date Location Attacker(s) Number of Victims[1] Description April 9, 1891 Newburgh, New York, United States James Foster, 70 "several injured" 70 year old James Foster fires a shotgun at a group of male students in the playground of St. Mary's Parochial School, causing minor injuries to several of the students. [2] May 18, 1927 Bath, Michigan, United States Andrew Kehoe, 55 45 dead, 58 injured Bath School disaster. School board member Andrew Kehoe set up a series of explosions in the Bath elementary school. That morning he killed his wife and detonated a bomb inside the school. As people amassed outside, Kehoe detonated his shrapnel-filled vehicle outside of the school. The bombings constituted the deadliest act of mass murder in a school in U.S. history. June 11, 1964 Cologne, Germany Walter Seifert, 42 11 dead, 22 injured Cologne school massacre. Armed with an insecticide sprayer converted into a flamethrower, a lance and a homebuilt mace, 42-year-old Walter Seifert entered the Katholische Volksschule and opened fire on the girls playing in the courtyard. He then knocked in classroom windows with his mace and fired inside. Eight children and two teachers died, twenty children and two teachers survived with very severe burns. After taking a cyanide pill, Seifert died the following day, in custody. May 15, 1974 Ma'alot, Israel DFLP, PLO 26 children killed, 60+ wounded Ma'alot massacre. A group of DFLP terrorists took around 90 school children hostage on the 15. May, 1974, at "Netiv Meir", an elementary school in Ma'alot, a community in northern Israel. Before the deadline at 6:00 p.m., the school was stormed by Israeli special forces, who managed to eliminate all terrorists. 26 hostages had been killed. January 29, 1979 San Diego, California, United States Brenda Ann Spencer, 16 2 dead, 9 injured Armed with a .22 rifle 16-year-old Brenda Ann Spencer opened fire at Cleveland Elementary School. She wounded eight children and one police officer and killed two adults. When the six-hour incident ended, she was asked of her motive for the killing, to which she shrugged and infamously replied "I don't like Mondays. This livens up the day." January 20, 1983 Saint Louis, Missouri, United States David F. Lawler, 14 2 dead, 1 injured During a study hall period at Parkway South Junior High School, eighth grader David F. Lawler used two pistols to kill a fifteen-year-old classmate and severely wound another before turning the guns on himself. [30] May 20, 1988 Winnetka, Illinois, United States Laurie Dann, 30 2 dead, 6 injured 30-year-old Laurie Dann walked into a second grade classroom at Hubbard Woods Elementary School carrying a pistol and two revolvers and began shooting children, killing eight-year-old Nicholas Corwin and wounding five others before fleeing. She entered a nearby house where she shot and wounded a 20-year-old man before killing herself. November 10, 1993 Sarajevo, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbian Military 9 dead Three to four bombs were detonated by the Serbian military at school at Sarajevo. Several children and a teacher were killed in the attack, other children were wounded. July 13, 1995 Bratunac, Yugoslavia, Serbian Bratunac Brigade 80 dead The Vuk Karadzic Elementary School was used as a concentration camp in the Yugoslav wars. Around 80 to 100 of those held there were shot at the school then later dumped at a nearby hill. This reportedly angered a local Serbian commander who had to clean up the mess at the school. This elementary school was also used as a torture site by the Serbian militias. March 13, 1996 Dunblane, Scotland, United Kingdom Thomas Hamilton, 44 18 dead Dunblane massacre. Unemployed former shopkeeper and Scout leader Thomas Hamilton walked into Dunblane Primary School armed with two 9 mm pistols and two .357 Magnum revolvers. He killed sixteen small children and a teacher. The subsequent police investigation revealed that Hamilton had loaded the magazines for his Browning with an alternating combination of fully metal jacketed and hollow point ammunition. This event led to the banning of handguns in the UK with the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997. July 8, 1996 Blakenhall, Wolverhampton, England, United Kingdom Horrett Campbell, 33 7 injured Horrett Campbell, a 33-year-old man with paranoid schizophrenia, invaded a Teddy Bears' Picnic being held at St Luke's Primary School and slashed three young children and four adults with a machete. Lisa Potts, a 20-year-old nursery nurse, was awarded the George Medal for saving children's lives despite suffering severe injuries. October, 1996 Queensland, Australia Paul Streeton 1 injured Paul Streeton set six year old Tjandamurra O'Shane on fire in the playground of his school, burning over 70% of his body. The motive was apparently racism due to the boy's aboriginal background. February 29, 2000 Mount Morris Township, Michigan Dedrick Owens, 6 1 dead Owens took a .32 caliber pistol to Buell Elementary School from his uncle's home and used it to shoot and kill 6 year old Kayla Rolland. February 2, 2001 Red Lion, Pennsylvania, United States William Stankewicz, 55 13 injured William Stankewicz, angry of accusations of molesting his stepdaughters and a recent divorce of his wife, entered North Hopewell Winterstown Elementary School and brutally slashed two teachers and a principal with a machete. He then subsequently wounded several children in a kindergarten classroom before being subdued by a faculty member. [3] June 8, 2001 Ikeda, Osaka, Japan Mamoru Takuma, 37 8 dead, 15 injured Osaka school massacre. Armed with a kitchen knife, a 37-year-old former janitor Mamoru Takuma trespassed into Ikeda Elementary School attached to Osaka-Kyoiku University and stabbed school children and teachers. 8 children were killed and 15 wounded among those were 13 children and 2 teachers. June 1, 2004 Sasebo, Nagasaki, Japan Unidentified girl, 11 1 dead An 11-year-old student, identified only as "Girl A," killed a 12-year-old classmate, Satomi Mitarai, by slitting her throat at Okubo Elementary School in Sasebo, Nagasaki. September, 2004 Suzhou, People's Republic of China ... 28 injured A man armed with a knife and homemade explosives attacked 28 children at a kindergarten. September 1, 2004 Beslan, North Ossetia, Russian Federation Chechen rebels, At least 386 dead, including 31 hostage takers. Over 700 injured. Beslan school hostage crisis . A group of pro-Chechen armed rebels took more than 1,200 school children and adults hostage on September 1, 2004, at School Number One (SNO) in the town of Beslan, North Ossetia. On the third day of the standoff, gunfire broke out between the hostage-takers and Russian security forces. October 2, 2006 Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, United States Charles Carl Roberts, 32 6 dead, 5 injured Amish school shooting. A 32-year-old milk-tank truck driver, took hostages and eventually killed five girls (aged 7–13) and then killed himself at West Nickel Mines School, a one-room Amish schoolhouse. March 18, 2007 Sabayoi, Songkhla, Thailand Insurgents, 3 dead, several injured 3 dead Insurgents attacked Bamrungsart Pondok School with firearms. Three children were killed. It was reported that it was Muslim insurgents who had attacked this Muslim school.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 2:24pm

65. Secondary school incidents

    Date Location Attacker(s) Number of Victims Description May 4, 1956 Maryland, United States Billy Prevatte, 13 3 injured After being suspended for brandishing a knife at school, Billy Ray Prevatte arms himself with a .22 caliber-rifle and shoots an English teacher, a gym classroom instructor and a shop teacher, leaving them in wounded conditions. [4] February, 1968 Hue, Vietnam Viet Cong 170 dead Hue Massacre. The Gia Hoi High School massacre took place during the invasion of Hue during the Vietnam War by the Viet Cong. Afterwards 170 bodies were recovered from the Gia Hoi High School yard alone. May 28, 1975 Brampton, Ontario, Canada Michael Slobodian, 16 3 dead, 13 injured Centennial Secondary School shooting. Michael Slobodian, 16, killed a teacher and student and wounded 13 others at Brampton Centennial Secondary School in Brampton, Ont., before shooting himself. October 27, 1975 Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Robert Poulin, 18 3 dead, 5 injured St. Pius X High School shooting. 18-year-old Robert Poulin opened fire on his class with a shotgun at St. Pius X High School, killing one and wounding five before turning the gun on himself. Poulin had raped and stabbed his 17-year-old friend Kim Rabot to death prior to the incident. A book was written on the incident called Rape Of A Normal Mind. January 21, 1985 Goddard, Kansas, United States, James Kearbey, 14 1 dead, 3 injured 14-year old James Kearbey, a student at Goddard Middle School, arms himself with a M1-A semiautomatic rifle and a .357-caliber handgun and fatally shoots his principal and wounds three teachers. [5] December 4, 1986 Lewistown, Montana, United States, Kristopher Hans, 14 1 dead, 3 injured 14-year old Kristofer Hans, angry over a failing grade, shoots and kills a substitute teacher for a French classroom, and then later wounded a vice principal and two students. [6] March 2, 1987 Missouri, United States Nathan Ferris, 12 2 dead After constant teasing and humiliation about his weight, Nathan Ferris armed himself with a pistol and killed a fellow student after he bullied him in class. He then turned the gun on himself. [7] January 24, 1989 Rauma, Finland ..., 14 2 dead Two students were fatally shot by a 14-year old student at the Raumanmeri secondary school. The shooter had claimed to be a victim of bullying. January 8, 1991 Richardson, Texas, United States Jeremy Wade Delle, 15 1 dead Jeremy Wade Delle brought a .357 Magnum to Richardson High School and committed suicide in front of his class of about 30 students. This incident inspired Pearl Jam's song Jeremy. [31] [32] May 1, 1992 Olivehurst, California, United States Eric Houston, 20 4 dead, 10 injured Armed with a pistol, 20-year-old Eric Houston took hostages at his former high school, killing four people and wounding 10. His motive was his inability to find a good job due to the fact that he had failed a grade at school. He was given the death penalty for the shooting. The 1994 film Hostage High is directly based on the shooting.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 2:27pm

66. "Given the natural progression of things as you stated (for better or worse), where does a society draw a moral line in the sand? 25 years from now, do we allow pedophiles to marry their victims, since it's cheaper than treatment or incarceration? Can't wait to see MTV's "Who wants to marry a 5 year old". Sounds fairly knee-jerk now, but we have so much "tolerance" these days that even defining one's gender has almost become a hate crime in some places."

    Posted by SLIVER 12/12/2007 @ 10:40am

    I have always considered you to be an anti-intellectual idiot.

    Please tell me you accidentally barfed on your keyboard and the words you posted, were an aberration, not an indication of how your mind does (or does not) work.

    Are you seriously comparing violent assault on a minor to consensual adults, recreating with drugs?

    "...And how many kids get killed on their bikes by assault rifles vs stoners who drive? Priorities, man."

    Can you prove otherwise? Research, man. (Before you run your mouth).

    Any attempt to actually learn about that topic, would have shown how factually incorrect you are.

    I second you, for stupidest poster of the day.

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/12/2007 @ 2:27pm

67. May 14, 1992 Napa, California, United States John McMahan, 14 2 injured Armed with a .22 Magnum, 14-year old John McMahan opens fire in a science classroom, wounding two. January 18, 1993 Grayson, Kentucky United States Scott Pennington, 17 2 dead Scott Pennington shot and killed teacher Deanna McDavid and custodian Marvin Hicks after entering McDavid's classroom at East Carter High School. Pennington was later found guilty of the murders and sentenced to life imprisonment. [33] December 1, 1993 Wauwatosa, Wisconsin United States Leonard McDowell, 21 1 dead The 21-year-old former student at Wauwatosa West High School shot Associate Principal Dale Breitlow three times with a .44-cal. Taurus revolver in a second-floor hallway. McDowell was found guilty of the murder and sane at the time of the shooting. His life sentence was upheld by the state Court of Appeals in April, 1997. [8] March 25, 1994 Cherokee County, Georgia, United States Brian Head, 15 1 dead 15-year old Brian Head shot and killed himself during his high school economics class at Etowah High School. Head had been a longtime target for bullies because of his weight and thick glasses. His father, Bill, subsequently successfully lobbied for a law that criminalized bullying and required schools to alert parents of bullied children. May 26, 1994 Union, Kentucky, United States Clay Shrout, 17 4 dead Clay Shrout kills his mother, father, and two younger sisters before embarking a hostage situation in a trigonometry classroom.[9] June 17, 1994 Holywood, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom Garnet Bell 6 injured A former pupil bearing a grudge entered an assembly hall at Sullivan Upper School and used a flamethrower to attack students taking A-Level examinations. Six were injured; three seriously. October 12, 1994 Greensboro, North Carolina, United States Nicholas Atkinson, 16 1 dead, 1 injured Nicholas Atkinson, a 16-year old Grimsley High School student, returned to campus after being suspended and shot and wounded the assistant principal with a 9mm handgun before committing suicide. [10] October 12, 1995 South Carolina, United States Toby Sincino, 16 2 dead, 1 injured After being suspended for making an obscene gesture, 16-year old Toby Sincino shoots and wounds a math teacher, then shooting and killing another math teacher before turning the gun on himself. November 15, 1995 Lynnville, Tennessee, United States Jamie Rouse, 17 2 dead, 1 injured The Richland High School shooting occurred when 17-year-old Jamie Rouse walked into the school and shot two teachers in the head, killing one, armed with a .22 Remington Viper. He then fired at the assistant football coach but hit a 14-year-old freshman in the neck, killing her. Stephen Abbott was also charged with criminal responsibility for driving Rouse to school knowing he was armed and intended to shoot up his school. December 8, 1995 Maida Vale, London, England Learco Chindamo, 15 1 dead Headmaster Philip Lawrence was stabbed to death outside the gates of his school by 15-year-old Learco Chindamo at St George's Roman Catholic Secondary School in Maida Vale, London. February 2, 1996 Moses Lake, Washington, United States Barry Loukaitis, 14 3 dead, 1 injured Armed with a high-powered hunting rifle and two handguns, 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis killed his algebra teacher and two students before taking hostages. He also shot a girl in the arm, who he released during the hostage situation. The incident ended when a teacher burst into the room and tackled him. Loukaitis is now serving life in prison. March 25, 1996 Patterson, Missouri, United States Anthony Gene Rutherford, 18, Jonathan Moore, 15, Joseph Burris, 15 1 dead One student had been shot and killed by an 18-year old and two 15-year old students in a rural Christian reform school. September 25, 1996 DeKalb County, Georgia, United States David Dubose Jr., 16 1 dead 16-year old David Dubose Jr. fatally shot a teacher on school campus. February 19, 1997 Bethel, Alaska, United States Evan Ramsey, 16 2 dead, 2 injured Armed with a pump-action 12 gauge shotgun, Evan Ramsey killed a student and the principal of Bethel High School, and wounded two others. He is now serving a 210 year sentence. October 1, 1997 Pearl, Mississippi, United States Luke Woodham, 16 3 dead, 7 injured Student 16-year-old Luke Woodham stabbed and beat his mother to death, then took a .30-30 lever-action deer hunting rifle to Pearl High School where he shot into a crowd of students, killing his ex-girlfriend Christina Menefee and her friend Lydia Kay Dew and wounded seven other students. The incident was ended when Vice Principal Joel Myrick took his personal .45 Colt handgun out of his vehicle and brandished it at Luke Woodham. Woodham later claimed that he did not remember killing his mother. December 2, 1997 West Paducah, Kentucky, United States Michael Carneal, 14 3 dead, 5 injured A 14-year old high school freshman opened fire on a prayer circle at his school killing three students and injuring five.[11] December 15, 1997 Stamps, Arkansas, United States Joseph Todd, 14 2 injured 14-year old Joseph Todd launched a sniper attack at his school that left two students wounded. March 24, 1998 Jonesboro, Arkansas, United States Mitchell Johnson, 13 Andrew Golden, 11 5 dead, 10 injured Jonesboro massacre. 13-year-old Mitchell Johnson and 11-year-old Andrew Golden set off the fire alarm in their Jonesboro school and then, from the woods, open fire on classmates and teachers as they flee the building. Four female students and a teacher are killed, with nine other students and a teacher being wounded in the incident. April 24, 1998 Edinboro, Pennsylvania, United States Andrew Wurst, 14 1 dead, 3 injured 14-year-old Andrew J. Wurst went to the school graduation dance where he shot and killed a popular science teacher. He subsequently opened fire on more students, wounding another teacher and two classmates before he ran out of ammunition. May 19, 1998 Fayetteville, Tennessee, United States Jacob Davis, 18 1 dead Three days before graduation, 18-year-old Jacob Davis shoots and kills a 17-year old student in the parking lot of his school after a dispute regarding his girlfriend. May 21, 1998 Springfield, Oregon, United States Kip Kinkel, 15 4 dead, 25 injured Kip Kinkel opened fire with a .22 rifle at Thurston Senior High School, killing 2 students and wounding 25 before being tackled by a wounded student. His parents were later found at home, murdered by Kinkel. He is now serving 111 years in prison without parole. April 20, 1999 Jefferson County, Colorado, United States Eric Harris, 18 Dylan Klebold, 17 15 dead, 24 injured Columbine High School Massacre. Two teenage students, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, carried out a shooting rampage, killing 12 students and a teacher, as well as wounding 24 others, before committing suicide. Columbine is located in the Columbine CDP of Jefferson County, near the cities of Denver and Littleton. April 28, 1999 Taber, Alberta, Canada Todd Cameron Smith, 14 1 dead, 1 injured W. R. Myers High School shooting. In both the first school shooting since Columbine and the first Canadian school shooting in over 10 years, Todd Cameron Smith brought a sawn-off .22 rifle to W.R Myers High School and shot two students, killing one. May 20, 1999 Conyers, Georgia, United States T.J. Solomon, 15 6 injured 15-year old T.J. Solomon, armed with a .22-caliber rifle and a handgun, opened fire at Heritage High School, wounding six students; one seriously. [12] November 19, 1999 Deming, New Mexico, United States Victor Cordova, Jr., 12 1 dead 12-year old Victor Cordova Jr. shot and killed 13-year old Araceli Tena. Tena died a day later from sustained wounds in life support. December 6, 1999 Fort Gibson, Oklahoma, United States Seth Trickey, 13 4 injured 13-year old Seth Trickey armed himself with his father's 9mm semiautomatic handgun and opened fire of 15-rounds at Fort Gibson Middle School, injuring four classmates. December 7, 1999 Veghel, Netherlands Ali D., 17 5 injured 17-year old Ali D., of Kurdish origin, shot and injured five people at a school. He claimed he wanted to avenge the family honour by shooting his sister's boyfriend, who he believed had brought the family honour to disgrace. The boyfriend, three other students and a teacher were injured in the shooting. Ali D. was sentenced to five years in prison, his father was sentenced to eight years. October 20, 1999 Houston, Texas, United States Estanislao Balderas, 14 1 dead Balderas stabbed a 13-year-old boy named Samuel Avila in the head with a screwdriver in a fight at Deady Middle School. Samuel Avila died. Balderas was arrested and prosecuted [34]. March 16, 2000 Brannenburg, Bavaria, Germany ..., 16 1 dead, 1 injured A 16-year old student fatally shot a teacher and then turned the handgun on himself but survived, and has been in a coma ever since.[13] January 18, 2001 Bromma, Stockholm, Sweden ..., 17 ..., 19 1 dead A 16-year-old student was shot dead in the toilets of the Bromma Gymnasium (high school). March 5, 2001 Santee, California, United States Charles Andrew Williams, 15 2 dead, 13 injured Armed with .22 revolver, 15-year-old Charles Andrew Williams opened fire in a male toilet facility at Santana High School, killing two students. He then exited the bathroom and shot at nearby students, wounding 13. Shortly afterwards he retreated back into the toilets where he surrendered to police. March 7, 2001 Williamsport, Pennsylvania, United States Emily Bush, 14 1 injured 14-year old Emily Bush opened fire in her Catholic school cafeteria, wounding one female student. March 22, 2001 San Diego, California, United States Jason Hoffman, 18 5 injured 18-year old Jason Hoffman opened fire with his handgun and shotgun at Granite Hills High School, wounding two teachers and three students before being shot and wounded by a police officer. While awaiting trial, Hoffman committed suicide in prison by hanging. [14] March 30, 2001 Gary, Indiana, United States Donald R. Burt, 17 1 dead Expelled 17-year old student Donald R. Burt, Jr. shoots and kills 16-year old Neal Boyd III in the parking lot of Lew Wallace High School. May 26, 2000 Lake Worth, Florida, United States Nate Brazill, 13 1 dead One teacher, Barry Grunow, had been shot and killed at Lake Worth Middle School by 13-year old Nate Brazill with .25-caliber semiautomatic pistol on the last day of classes. Brazill was convicted of the murder and sentenced to twenty-five years in prison. [15] November 12, 2001 Caro, Michigan, United States Chris Buschbacher, 17 1 dead 17-year old Chris Buschbacher, armed with a .22-caliber rifle and a 20-gauge shotgun, took one teacher and one student hostage at the Caro Learning Center before killing himself. January 15, 2002 New York, New York, United States ... 2 injured A teenager critically wounded two students at Martin Luther King Jr. High School. April 26, 2002 Erfurt, Thuringia, Germany Robert Steinhäuser, 19 17 dead, 7 injured Erfurt massacre, 19 year old Robert Steinhäuser, who was permanently expelled from school in October 2001, entered the Gutenberg-Gymnasium in Erfurt and shot 13 teachers, two students and a police officer. He then committed suicide. April 14, 2003 New Orleans, Louisiana, United States ... 1 dead, 4 injured At 10:30 AM, several men armed with an AK-47 entered the school gymnasium of John McDonogh High School and executed Jonathan "Caveman" Williams, a football player. The killers fired at least 18 times, shattering Williams' face and injuring three neighboring girls. A stampede of students trampled a pregnant girl.[16][17][18] April 24, 2003 Red Lion, York County, Pennsylvania, United States James Sheets, 14 2 dead The Red Lion Area Junior High School Murder/Suicide was committed when 14-year-old James Sheets fatally shot his school principal in his middle school cafeteria and later committed suicide by shooting himself with a second handgun. [19] September 24, 2003 Cold Spring, Minnesota, United States Jason McLaughlin, 15 2 dead Rocori High School shooting. 15-year-old Jason McLaughlin shot Aaron Rollins and Seth Bartell at Rocori High School with a .22 pistol. Rollins died the same day; Bartell died October 10 of injuries sustained in the attack.[20] January 13, 2004 Den Haag, The Netherlands Murat Demir, 16 1 dead Murat Demir shot Hans van Wieren, a 49-year-old teacher and vice principal at Terra College. Van Wieren was taken to the hospital and died on January 13 in the evening as a result of his gun shot wound. February 2, 2004 Washington, D.C., United States Thomas J. Boykin, 19 1 dead 19 year old Thomas J. Boykin fatally shot 17 year old James Richardson at Ballou Senior High School. Boykin was later acquitted on the charge of murder. [21] February 3, 2004 Palmetto Bay, Florida, United States Michael Hernandez, 14 1 dead 14-year old Michael Hernandez stabbed and slit the throat of a 14-year-old classmate, Jaime Rodrigo Gough, while in a restroom at Southwood Middle School. Hernandez was tried as an adult, and sentenced to life in prison without parole. A search of his home revealed he had concocted plans to murder several classmates and his older sister. His journal revealed he was obsessed with perfection, and admired Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. September 28, 2004 Carmen de Patagones, Buenos Aires Province, Argentina ..., 15 3 dead, 5 injured Armed with his father's 9mm pistol, a 15-year-old boy opened fire on his classmates during a flag-hoisting, killing 3 students and wounding 5 others. November 26, 2004 Ruzhou, China ... 8 dead, 4 injured With no apparent motive, an intruder stabbed eight students to death and injured four others at Ruzhou's Number Two High School in the sixth such incident in China in a four month period. [22] March 2, 2005 Cumberland City, Tennessee, United States Jason Clinard, 14 1 dead 14-year old Jason Clinard shot and killed school bus driver Joyce Gregory, who had been carrying a bus of 24 students. [23] March 21, 2005 Red Lake, Minnesota, United States Jeffrey Weise, 16 10 dead, 12+ injured Red Lake High School massacre. Jeffrey Weise, a student at Red Lake High School in Red Lake, Beltrami County, Minnesota, killed his grandfather and his girlfriend before killing seven more people at the school including a teacher and a security guard. Weise then took his own life.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 2:30pm

68. November 8, 2005 Jacksboro, Tennessee, United States Kenneth Bartley, Jr., 14 1 dead, 2 injured After being confronted about of a gun on school property, 14-year old Kenneth Bartley opened fire on three school administrators at Campbell County High School, killing assistant principal Ken Bruce and critically wounding the principal and another assistant principal. The shooting was not premeditated. [24] January 13, 2006 Longwood, Florida, United States Chris Penley, 15 1 dead 15 year old Chris Penley brought a handgun to Milwee Middle School, and held his class hostage for a short time before eventually being fatally shot in a bathroom by police. It was soon discovered that the gun was actually a pellet gun, causing controversy over whether his death was justified. February 9, 2006 Houston, Texas, United States Ronald Walker, 26 1 injured Walker raped a 15-year old girl in a second-floor toilet facility at Westbury High School. Walker pled guilty to the charge [25]. February 24, 2006 Bellaire, Texas, United States Name unknown 1 injured A stabbing involving two male freshman occurred in a school stairwell of Bellaire High School. The victim survived the stabbing while the perpetrator was arrested and prosecuted. The attacker was a national of Mexico.[26] March 14, 2006 Reno, Nevada, United States James Newman, 14 2 injured The Pine Middle School shooting occurred when 14-year-old James Newman brought his father's revolver to Pine Middle School and wounded two students. He was sentenced to house arrest and community service, which outraged several members of the public when he was not sentenced to prison. August 30, 2006 Hillsborough, North Carolina, United States Alvaro Rafael Castillo, 19 1 dead, 2 injured 19-year-old Alvaro Rafael Castillo opened fire at Orange High School with a rifle and shotgun, shooting eight times and wounding two students. Officers ordered him to stop firing and he immediately complied. Castillo killed his father with a firearm before driving to school in a van. In the van police officers found ammunition, pipe bombs, and other weapons. Castillo will be charged with first-degree murder in the death of his father while charges for the school shooting are pending. [27] September 27, 2006 Bailey, Colorado, United States Duane Morrison, 53 2 dead, 6 injured A gunman, later identified as 53-year-old Duane Morrison of Denver, took six female students hostage at Platte Canyon High School. After sexually assaulting some of them, he released four of the hostages. When 16-year-old Emily Keyes tried to run away, Morrison shot her in the back of the head before killing himself. Keyes was flown to St. Anthony Central Hospital in Denver, where she died a short time later. [28][29] September 29, 2006 Cazenovia, Wisconsin, United States Eric Hainstock, 15 1 dead Eric Hainstock, 15, a freshman at Weston High School, brought a shotgun and a handgun to school and confronted the principal. The shotgun was wrestled away from him, but in a struggle over the handgun Hainstock shot the principal, who died later of his wounds. Hainstock had complained that the principal and teachers had failed to stop homophobic bullying directed at him. He also had recently received discipline for bringing tobacco to school and throwing a stapler at a teacher. Hainstock suffered from long term ADHD and abusive treatment at home. He was tried as an adult and sentenced to life in prison. October 2, 2006 Las Vegas, Nevada, United States ... no injuries An ex-student of Mojave High School went on campus with a gun, his motive unknown at the time. Students recognized him as not being a student anymore and notified school police immediately. The suspect ran from the school and ditched his gun behind a church close to Mojave. Mojave, as well as 3 middle schools and one elementary school were placed on lockdown while police searched for him. [30] October 9, 2006 Joplin, Missouri, United States Thomas White, 13 no injuries A 13-year-old student fired a cheap imitation AK-47 inside his middle school after confronting two others students and his principal. The student was wearing a mask and had pointed the gun at the principal, the assistant superintendent and two students, saying, "please don't make me do this". After firing a shot into the ceiling and breaking a water pipe, the student's gun jammed when he attempted to fire additional shots. The student was then confronted by police officers and taken into custody. Officers also found a note in the student's backpack indicating that he had placed an explosive in the school (which has 700 students). No one was injured in the incident. [31] October 17, 2006 Fort Bend County, Texas, United States Michael Priest, 16 1 dead A Seven Lakes High School student committed suicide outside the cafeteria. The school was forced into lockdown for about two hours while the school officials fielded concerns of worried parents, who found out via texting of Seven Lakes students. No other students were hurt, nor did the teen plan on hurting any other student. Though he was not pronounced dead immediately, he was declared DOA as soon as his parents were notified. November 20, 2006 Emsdetten, Germany Sebastian Bosse, 18 1 dead, 27 injured An 18-year-old former student entered the Geschwister Scholl school in western Germany with two sawed off shotguns and an explosive device, and injured a teacher, 9 students, the school janitor, and 16 police officers. Police stormed the building, and the shooter released several smoke bombs as he retreated to the third floor, which caused most of the police injuries due to smoke inhalation. The suspect apparently killed himself. December 12, 2006 Springfield, Pennsylvania, United States Shane Halligan, 16 1 dead 16-year old Shane Halligan entered Springfield Township High School, armed with an AK-47, and fatally shot himself after firing the firearm in the hallways to alert others to back away. January 3, 2007 Tacoma, Washington, United States Douglas Chanthabouly, 18 1 dead Douglas Chanthabouly entered Henry Foss High School and fatally shot 17-year old Samnang Kok in the face with a handgun. January 19, 2007 Sudbury, Massachusetts, United States John Odgren, 16 1 dead 15-year-old James Alenson was stabbed to death with a knife in a high school washroom in the East House section by 16-year old John Odgren. February 8, 2007 Prineville, Oregon United States Marc Hollingsworth, 18 1 dead An 18-year-old male high school student committed suicide with a gunshot wound to the head in the high school's parking lot. He was found by a student around 2:30pm.[citation needed] March 7, 2007 Midland, Michigan, United States David Turner, 17 1 dead, 1 injured 17-year old David Turner shot and critically wounded 17-year old Jessica Forsyth four times outside Herbert Henry Dow High School before killing himself in the parking lot. [32] March 7, 2007 Greenville, Texas, United States Joey Horn, 16 1 dead, A 16-year-old male high school student fatally shot himself while in the band hallway area of the school around 7:15am.[citation needed] March 18, 2007 Sabayoi, Thailand ... 3 dead, 7 injured A number of attackers threw explosives and fired numerous bullets at an Islamic school killing 3 teens and injured 7 others who were sleeping.[33] April 10, 2007 Gresham, Oregon, United States Chad Escobedo, 15 10 injured High school freshman Chad Escobedo shoots the windows out of two classrooms from outside Springwater Trail High School injuring ten students with shrapnel and broken glass, two of which required stitches. His motive was to shoot at a class in which he was enrolled, unhappy that the instructor had called his parents; the classrooms he hit, however, were not his intended target [34]. April 18, 2007 Huntersville, North Carolina, United States Josh Emerson Cook, 16 1 dead A 16-year-old threatened two students in the parking lot at North Mecklenberg High School with a gun and shot himself at a local gas station when confronted by police.[35] Four Charlotte-Mecklenberg schools went on lockdown. May 4, 2007 El Maton, Texas United States Allison Camacho, 15 1 dead A female 15-year-old student at Tidehaven High School fatally shot herself in the school's restroom. Her body was found by another student from her band class after she did not return. The school campus had been subsequently put on lockdown.[36] May 23, 2007 Toronto, Canada Unknown 1 dead C.W. Jefferys Collegiate Institute shooting. A 15-year-old boy was shot at high school C.W. Jefferys Collegiate Institute, in Toronto, Ontario. Police have confirmed the death of the boy.[37][38][39] September 28, 2007 Oroville, California, United States Greg Wright, 17 no injuries A 17-year old student held three girls hostage at Las Plumas High School for nearly an hour after releasing twenty-seven other students and an instructor in a band room. The gunman allegedly fired numerous gunshots through the ceilings while the three girls were in his custody. When police arrived, the gunman peacefully surrendered. [40] October 7, 2007 Crandon, Wisconsin, United States Tyler Peterson, 20 7 dead, 1 injured At an off-campus homecoming party, a 20-year-old full-time deputy in the Forest County Sheriff's Department, who was also a part-time officer at the Crandon Police Department, murdered six people students and recent graduates of Crandon High School (ages 14 to 20) after a dispute.[41] Peterson was initially believed to have been killed by a police sniper, but it was later reported that he may have committed suicide by multiple gunshots.[42] October 10, 2007 Cleveland, Ohio, United States Asa H. Coon, 14 1 dead, 5 injured A 14-year-old student, reportedly upset about a suspension, went on a shooting spree in SuccessTech Academy and wounded two to four people before his death. The gunman had committed suicide when police executed a manhunt search. [43][44] October 11, 2007 Amsterdam, Netherlands Hüseyin P., 14 1 dead A 14-year-old student, identified only as Hüseyin P., stabs 16-year old classmate Youssef Mokhtari to death at a school in the Slotervaart borough of Amsterdam. The victim had reportedly made a joke about the surname of the perpetrator. [35] October 17, 2007 Mokane, Missouri, United States ..., 11 1 injured An 11-year-old student at South Callaway Middle School in Mokane leaves school property and travels to a nearby farm, stealing three guns and eventually shoots at a school administrator off-campus while the school remained in lock-down for approximately 40 minutes. [45] November 7, 2007 Tuusula, Finland Pekka-Eric Auvinen, 18 9 dead, 13 injured Jokela school shooting. An 18-year old man opened fire a high school in Jokela killing 8 people including the school's principal using a SIG Mosquito .22 calibre pistol. It was one of the first notable shootings in Finland. Auvinen was pronounced dead at a hospital after trying to take his own life. [46] The shooter posted a video entitled "Jokela High School Massacre - 11/7/2007" on YouTube a day before the incident. [47][48] November 12, 2007 Houston, Texas, United States Larry Paul Newton, 48 1 injured Newton, a mentally ill man, appeared on the property of Lamar High School before classes and injured 14-year old Catherine Sullivan, a female Lamar student, by stabbing her arm. Several male students aided Sullivan by beating and holding the attacker. An HISD police officer subdued Newton, leading to his arrest. [49]. Sullivan received stitches after the attack [50]. December 12, 2007 Gurgaon, Haryana, India Akash Vadav, 14 and Vikas Yadav, 13 1 dead Euro International school shooting Akash Yadav brings his father's gun that was kept unlocked and hid it in the school toilet, After school was over he shot classmate 14-year old Abhishek Tyagi five times at close range over a fight they had a few days ago. [51]

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 2:30pm

69. yep, those pot heads are killing our kids.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 2:30pm

70. College and university school incidents

    Date Location Attacker(s) Number of Victims Description June 4, 1936 Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, United States Wesley Crow 2 dead Wesley Crow shot and killed his Lehigh University English instructor, C. Wesley Phy. Crow went to Phy's office and demanded that Mr. Phy change his grade to a passing mark. Crow committed suicide after shooting Phy. [52] November 13, 1949 Columbus, Ohio, United States James Heer 1 dead Ohio State University freshman James Heer of Euclid, Ohio grabbed a .45 caliber handgun from the room of a Delta Tau Delta fraternity brother and shot and killed Jack McKeown, 21, of Norwood, Ohio, a Ohio State senior and fraternity brother. [53] May 15, 1954 Chapel Hill, North Carolina, United States ... 1 dead, 2 injured Putnam Davis Jr. was shot and killed during a fraternity house carnival at the Phi Delta Theta house at the University of North Carolina. William Joyner and Allen Long were shot and wounded during the exchange of gunfire in their fraternity bedroom. The incident took place after an all night beer party. Mr. Long reported to the police that, while the three were drinking beer at 7am, Davis pulled out a gun and started shooting with a gun he had obtained from the car of a former roommate. [54] August 1, 1966 Austin, Texas, United States Charles Whitman 18 dead, 31 injured University of Texas Clock Tower Shootings. After killing his wife and mother, Charles Whitman pointed a rifle from the observation deck of the University of Texas at Austin's Tower and began shooting in a homicidal rampage that went on for 96 minutes. He killed fifteen people and wounded 31 others before being shot dead by police. David Gunby was wounded in the shooting but died 35 years later after ceasing dialysis May 4, 1970 Kent, Ohio, United States Ohio National Guard 4 dead, 10 injured National Guard open fire on student protesters at Kent State University during an anti-Vietnam rally, killing 4 and wounding 10. See Kent State University shootings for more information. May 14-15, 1970 Jackson, Mississippi, United States Police 2 dead, 12 injured Jackson State killings. Police kill two and injure twelve students during Vietnam War riots. July 12, 1976 Fullerton, California, United States Edward Charles Allaway 7 dead, 2 injured California State University, Fullerton library massacre. A custodian opens fire on his fellow workers in the California State University, Fullerton library, killing seven and injuring two August 18, 1978 San Francisco, California, United States Theodore Streleski 1 dead Theodore Streleski murdered his mathematician professor, Karel deLeeuw at Stanford University by bludgeoning him with a ball-peen hammer. He was also found with a hit list containing deLeeuw's name. December, 1979 Seattle, Washington, United States Roger Cutsinger 1 dead In December, 1979, Roger Cutsinger, 21, fatally shot his roommate and lover, Larry Duerkson, for a $500,000 insurance policy in which Cutsinger was named beneficiary. Duerkson, a University of Washington library employee, was walking between Parrington Hall and the Henry Art Gallery when Cutsinger shot him. Cutsinger was later convicted of first-degree murder. April 5, 1982 Hot Springs, Arkansas, United States Kelvin Love 2 dead Kelvin Love, a student at Garland County Community College, killed an instructor and another student. December 17, 1983 Ithaca, New York, United States Su Yong Kim 2 dead Non-student Su Yong Kim enters the Low Rise 7 dormitory and kills Cornell University freshmen Young Hee Suh and Erin Nieswand with a rifle. [36] December 6, 1989 Montreal, Quebec, Canada Marc Lépine 15 dead, 14 injured École Polytechnique massacre. Marc Lépine took a hunting rifle into École Polytechnique de Montréal, killed 14 women, wounded four men and ten women before committing suicide. It remains to this day the worst massacre in Canadian history. July, 1989 Seattle, Washington, United States Azizolla Mazooni 2 dead In July, 1989, a California man, Azizolla Mazooni, shot and killed his ex-girlfriend, Marjan Mohseninia, and her friend, Abraham Sharif-Kashani, in a UW parking lot. Mazooni had hired a private detective to locate Mohseninia, who was a summer student at the university. Mazooni was later convicted on two counts of second-degree murder. November 1, 1991 Iowa City, Iowa, United States Gang Lu 6 dead, 1 injured After his dissertation did not win a certain academic award, Ph.D. physics student Gang Lu shot six people before committing suicide. Five were killed, including three professors. A student employee was paralyzed. August 24, 1992 Montreal, Quebec, Canada Valery Fabrikant 4 dead Former professor Dr. Valery Fabrikant went on a shooting rampage at Montreal's Concordia University killing four. Was the second school shooting to happen in Montreal. December 14, 1992 Great Barrington, Massachusetts, United States Wayne Lo, 18 2 dead, "several" injured Armed with a SKS carbine, 18-year-old Simon's Rock College of Bard student Wayne Lo killed a professor and a student and wounded several others. He was convicted of murder and sentenced to life imprisonment without parole. April 4, 1994 Aarhus, Denmark ..., 35 3 dead, 2 injured A 35-year old student at Aarhus University entered the cafeteria of his University around 11 AM with a shotgun. He shot and killed two female students and wounded two others. Soon afterwards he went to the men's room where he committed suicide. January 26, 1995 Chapel Hill, North Carolina, United States Wendell Williamson 2 dead, 2 injured Wendell Williamson, a law student and schizophrenic, opened fire on Franklin Street with an M-1 rifle, killing two and injuring two others, including a Chapel Hill police officer. August 15, 1996 San Diego, California, United States Frederick M. Davidson, 36 3 dead Frederick M. Davidson, shot Dr. Chen Liang, Dr. Constantinos Lyrintzis, and Dr. D. Preston Lowrey during a meeting at which he was to defend his master's thesis. He pleaded guilty to three counts of murder and is serving a life term in state prison. [37] September 17, 1996 University Park, Pennsylvania, United States Jillian Robbins, 19 1 dead, 1 injured Hetzel Union Building shooting. 19 year old Jillian Robbins opened fire on students walking to classes at The Pennsylvania State University, killing one student and wounding another. October 16, 1996 West Lafayette, Indiana, United States Jarrod Allen Eskew, 19 2 dead On October 15, 1996 Jay Severson, 27 a Wiley Hall counselor at Purdue University caught Jarrod Allen Eskew, 19 of Crawfordsville, Indiana cutting cocaine in his dorm room. Severson called the Purdue Police Department but when they arrived Eskew had fled. Eskew returned the next day at 2:50 pm with a sawed off 12-gauge shotgun while under the influence of both marijuana and cocaine. Eskew went to Severson's Wiley Hall dorm room and fatally shot Severson in the head. He then barricaded himself in his third floor dorm room. A janitor found the body a short time later. SWAT and police took up positions around Wiley Hall. Police evacuated Wiley Hall, attempted to negotiate, fired tear gas, and stormed the room to find Eskew had taken his own life with the shotgun. [55][56] August 3, 1999 Latrobe University, Melbourne, Australia Jonathon Brett Horrocks 1 dead, 1 injured La Trobe University shooting. The incident took place at 11:05 am when a man walked into the Eagle Bar on the La Trobe Bundoora campus armed with a .38-calibre revolver and shot and wounded a young woman before shooting bar manager Leon Capraro, killing him instantly. He then attempted to shoot at others but was restrained by patrons until police came and arrested him. June 28, 2000 Seattle, Washington, United States Jian Chen, 42 2 dead Jian Chen entered the University of Washington Medical Center around 3:45 PM and went to the office of his former supervisor, 57 year old Doctor Rodger Haggitt. Chen closed the door to Haggett's office and pulled out a gun and killed Haggett. Chen then turned the gun on himself and committed suicide. May 18, 2001 Pierce County, Washington, United States Donald D Cowan, 55 2 dead Around 3 PM, Donald D Cowan walked onto the Pacific Lutheran University campus armed with a 9mm handgun and a .22 caliber handgun. Cowan saw music professor James D. Holloway standing outside a residence hall. Cowan fired four times, striking Holloway three times in the torso and once in the head. Cowan then walked over to his victim, dropped a 16 page suicide note, put the gun to his head and shot himself once. Cowan died later that day at Madigan Army Medical Center. Cowan was obsessed over a female faculty member at PLU and killed Holloway out of "personal animosity" towards the woman, who had tried for years to get Cowan to leave her alone. Cowan also had a criminal history in Hawaii for stalking, and was thought to be mentally ill. January 16, 2002 Grundy, Virginia, United States Peter Odighizuwa, 43 3 dead, 3 injured Appalachian School of Law shooting. 43-year-old Appalachian School of Law student Peter Odighizuwa shot and killed the Law School Dean, Contracts Professor and another student; three others were wounded . The incident was ended when two students with personal firearms subdued the shooter. He was sentenced to multiple life terms in prison. Peter 'O' was a Nigerian student attending the school on a student visa. The school later settled a lawsuit by some of the surviving victims and their families brought over the schools failure to take action when the student showed signs of psychosis and made threats. October 21, 2002 Melbourne, Australia Huan Xiang 2 dead, "others" wounded Monash University shooting. Huan Xiang, a commerce student at the university, armed with five loaded handguns, opened fire in a tutorial room. Two students, William Wu and Steven Chan, were killed and others seriously wounded. Xiang was found not guilty of murder due to mental illness, and was ordered to be sent to a psychiatric hospital. October 28, 2002 Tucson, Arizona, United States Robert Flores, 41 4 dead Three nursing professors were shot dead at the University of Arizona by a student failing the nursing program. Robert J. Flores, Jr., 41, shot and killed Robin Rogers, 50, Barbara Monroe, 45, and Cheryl McGaffic, 44 before turning the gun on himself. Two of the teachers were shot in a classroom and the gunman allowed the students to leave before killing himself. May 9, 2003 Cleveland, Ohio, United States Biswanath Halder, 62 1 dead, 2 injured Biswanath Halder, a 62-year-old man, opened fire with an automatic weapon on his former school, Case Western Reserve University. He killed one student, seriously wounded two others, and kept over 90 people hiding for their lives for seven hours. After vigorous and bullet-ridden gun battles with school police and SWAT officers, Halder surrendered and was sentenced to life in prison. August 4, 2004 Beijing, China Xu Heping, 51 1 dead, 17 injured Xu Heping, a 51-year-old doorman with a history of mental illness, stabbed several students and teachers in Beijing University's Number One Hospital, killing a child and wounding 17 others, 14 of whom were children. September 3, 2006 Shepherdstown, West Virginia, United States Douglas W. Pennington, 49 3 dead Douglas W. Pennington, 49, killed his sons Logan P. Pennington, 26, and Benjamin M. Pennington, 24, during a visit to the campus at Shepherd University before shooting and killing himself. The shootings occurred at about 2 p.m.[38]. September 13, 2006 Montreal, Quebec, Canada Kimveer Gill 2 dead, 19 injured Dawson College shooting. On September 13, 2006 at Dawson College, a CEGEP in Westmount near downtown Montreal. The perpetrator, Kimveer Gill, began shooting outside the de Maisonneuve Boulevard entrance to the school, and moved towards the atrium by the cafeteria on the main floor. One victim died later in the next day due to her serious injuries at the hospital, while another 19 were injured, eight of whom were listed in critical condition with six requiring surgery. The gunman later committed suicide by shooting himself in the head, after being shot in the arm by police. The Dawson incident was the third fatal school shooting in the city. September 17, 2006 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, United States ... 5 injured Shots are fired outside Duquesne University's Vickroy Hall after a dance party sponsored by the Black Student Union which several non-students were attending. Five members of the Duquesne Dukes basketball team were injured during the shooting including one who sustained critical injuries after an argument between 1 individual and 2 students. April 2, 2007 Seattle, Washington, United States Jonathan Rowan, 41 2 dead Rowan entered Gould Hall on the University of Washington's Seattle Campus and headed to the fourth floor where he entered the office of his ex-girlfriend Rebecca Griego, 26, a program coordinator for the College of Architecture and Urban Planning. Rowan fired two shots, the first taking Griego's life and the second ending his own. Griego was aware that Rowan was tracking her down and had alerted the authorities as well as co-workers to be on the lookout but nothing was done, raising questions about the UWPD and campus security. [39] April 16, 2007 Blacksburg, Virginia, United States Seung-Hui Cho, 23 33 dead, 25 injured The Virginia Tech massacre was the single most deadly civilian gunfire incident in American higher education history. It occurred at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University. Thirty-two people were killed by gunman Seung-Hui Cho in two separate locations, about two hours apart: West Ambler Johnston Hall, where two were shot dead, and Norris Hall, where the remaining 30 were shot in an attack lasting nine minutes. The gunman then took his own life. Police reported that 25 others were injured, some in the Norris Hall shooting, others when they jumped from second-story windows to escape. May 8, 2007 Bundoora, Victoria, Australia Sarah Jean Cheney, 23 1 injured Sarah Jean Cheney stabbed Jemma Clancy, a 27 year old behavioral science student, three times with a steak knife. The incident occurred in the Borchardt library at the Bundoora campus of La Trobe University. Sarah Jean Cheney did not know Jemma Clancy personally and expressed that she just desired to kill someone. Jemma Clancy was taken to hospital in a serious but stable condition.[40] July 3 to July 10, 2007 Islamabad, Pakistan Numerous students and soldiers Figures have not been released; 20 deaths and over a hundred injuries reported, some claim hundreds and possibly more than a thousand died Pro-Taliban students barricaded themselves in the Lal Masjid (Red Mosque), a mosque that is attached to a religious school for women (the Jamia Hafsa madrasah) and a male madrasah. The Pakistani government sieged the mosque for a week, having numerous gun battles in heavy, room-to-room fighting until the all the defenders were killed, captured, or had surrendered. [41] August 4, 2007 Newark, New Jersey, United States Jose Carranza, 28 and two 15-year old unidentified boys 3 dead, 1 wounded Three Delaware State University students were forced to kneel against an elementary school wall and were shot execution-style by 28-year old Jose Carranza and two 15-year old juveniles. A fourth student was found with gunshot wounds to her head. September 21, 2007 Dover, Delaware, United States Loyer D. Braden, 18 2 injured Delaware State University shooting - an 18-year old student of Delaware State University opens fire of four to six rounds and wounds two 17-year old students, one injured seriously. The student was arrested two days later after escaping and was charged with attempted murder, assault and reckless endangerment. [42]

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 2:33pm

71. ACOOK,

    So, according to you all drugs are bad all the time. And all laws should be based on your personal experiences and prejudices instead of facts and reason?

    What about me? I have been a recreational drug user for over 30 yrs. Somehow, I've managed to start a business, buy a home, employ other people, pay taxes, become an asset to my small community, help my ex raise her boys, and put one through college. I have never collected welfare, unemployment, the EIC (back when I did qualify) or even ever file a claim on my insurance. (No, accidents in 30 yrs of driving, sliver. Research!).

    So, I should be harassed, my civil liberties impugned, fined and incarcerated?

    Or I should continue to live in a world that criminalizes my victim-less lifestyle?

    Or is it just all about you, and what you want/feel comfortable with?

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/12/2007 @ 2:35pm

72. Oh Yeah!

    I Bet All Those Kid-Killing Kids Were High On Pot.

    Posted by I'M CLUELESS 12/12/2007 @ 2:36pm | ignore this person

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 2:37pm

73. 'scuse the volume. sometimes it seems the best way to make a point.

    thanks for your patience,

    fz.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 2:39pm

74. I Bet All Those Kid-Killing Kids Were High On Pot.

    With that logic, we should have a shooting EVERY DAY in every high school in America, since pot use occurs daily in every high school.

    Posted by Metteyya at 12/12/2007 @ 2:42pm

75. With that logic, we should have a shooting EVERY DAY in every high school in America, since pot use occurs daily in every high school.

    Posted by METTEYYA 12/12/2007 @ 2:42pm

    no, those kids were "low" not high.

    and they were "low" from too many tokes on the doobie of a nihilistic society that thinks,

    happiness is a warm gun.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 2:49pm

76. the legalization of marijuana has nothing to do with taxation or its cultivation problem.

    it has to do with morality. even peter drucker himself has admitted this publicly (in the economist).

    Posted by darladoon at 12/12/2007 @ 3:07pm

77. DARLADOON:

    Could you elaborate please?

    Posted by jorcheim at 12/12/2007 @ 3:27pm

78. I have been a recreational drug user for over 30 yrs...

    IOW, you broke the law 30 years ago and have continued to flagrantly flout the law ever since. The rest is just a lame attempt to validate it. Did you ever wonder what message your actions sends to others about respect for the law?

    Or is it just all about you, and what you want/feel comfortable with?

    Posted by MALCONTENT 12/12/2007 @ 2:35pm

    This from a guy who just admitted breaking the law for the last thirty years.

    Posted by usc1 at 12/12/2007 @ 3:32pm

79. DARLADOON:

    i looked for drucker talking about ganja and found nothing. can you please help? i stick by what i said, "it's just not taxable".

    funny thing though, i found this:

    Congressional Committee Equates Marijuana Users to Child Molesters

    Democrats Retreat from Effort to Restore Student Loans for Nonviolent Drug Offenders, Expand Education Ban to Include Certain Sex Offenders

    Drug Policy Alliance Urges Congress to Stop Making Education a Casualty in the War on Drugs

    For Immediate Release: Thursday, November 15, 2007. Contact: Bill Piper (202)669-6430

    In a move that surprised groups working on substance abuse issues, Congressional Democrats backed away yesterday from a national campaign to repeal a federal law that denies student loans to people convicted of nonviolent drug offenses. Although Democrats had indicated earlier in the year that repealing the punitive drug provision would be a priority when considering legislation reauthorizing the Higher Education Act, the House Committee on Education and Labor decided last night to not only not repeal the provision but to expand federal law to deny pell grants to civilly confined sex offenders. The HEA Drug Provision has already stripped student loans from more than 200,000 students. More than 500 education, drug treatment and criminal justice groups have called for it to be repealed.

    "By not changing this counterproductive policy Democrats are saying that tens of thousands of students should be kicked out of college and denied an education", said Bill Piper, director of national affairs for the Drug Policy Alliance. "They should rename their education bill Leave Many Kids Behind because that's what it does."

    Democrats did a similar about face on the issue in the Senate earlier this year. Senate Democrats included language in a bill reauthorizing the Higher Education Act that would have reformed the punitive drug provision. When the bill was debated on the Senate floor, however, Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) offered an amendment killing the reform. Senate Democrats accepted the amendment without any opposition.

    Opponents of the punitive HEA Drug Provision say Democrats are chickening out on the issue and putting election worries above the needs of young people.

    "The American people have moved beyond the drug war hysteria of the 1980s, but many Democrats still don't realize this," said Piper. "They're afraid reforming draconian drug laws will make them look soft on crime, even though polling shows that voters are tired of punitive policies and want change."

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 3:35pm

80. USC1:

    I wonder what your position is on torture. I would be willing to bet you support using waterboarding, even though it is illegal under federal and international law. Come now... tell us. And be honest.

    And when your hypocrisy is out in the open for all to see, we will be able to ignore you again, just as you ignore common sense, morality, and propriety.

    Posted by jorcheim at 12/12/2007 @ 3:36pm

81. Posted by USC1 12/12/2007 @ 3:32pm

    do you ALWAYS drive the posted speed?

    no?

    didn't think so. LAWBREAKER!

    speeding kills more people than pot*.

    *no, i don't have time to check the stats. if i'm wrong, sorry. but i doubt it.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 3:37pm

82. Posted by JORCHEIM 12/12/2007 @ 3:36pm

    damn!

    you came up with torture, and all i could think of was speeding.

    you ARE good.

    ;+]

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 3:38pm

83. FROSTY ZOOM:

    :D I do what I can for mankind. And womankind... what can I say, I'm equal opportunity!

    Posted by jorcheim at 12/12/2007 @ 3:49pm

84. USC -

    I'll let Eric speak for himself, but I thought his first sentence was the summary of his point.

    Posted by Hman23 at 12/12/2007 @ 3:55pm

85. Posted by SLIVER 12/12/2007 @ 1:42pm

    SLIVER, what was the POINT of your "analogy"?

    That since pedophilia is illegal, and ILLEGAL (remember not talking pharmas) drug use is illegal...that if we decriminalize one, the other will naturally follow?

    Or what? I think you're trying to act profound, when you just made a stupid top-of-your-head knee-jerk reaction.

    Besides, YOU've said (to quote) that if abortion was made illegal, you'd tolerate 200-250 women DYING a year. So can't I argue that to make abortion illegal...is the same as wanting women to die MUCH easier than your "analogy"?

    Ref: BLOG | Posted 09/25/2007 @ 5:52pm Comments for "Battle in Aurora" by Peter Rothberg

    Posted by Mask at 12/12/2007 @ 4:01pm

86. MASK:

    How the hell did you find that so quickly? Damn...

    Posted by jorcheim at 12/12/2007 @ 4:02pm

87. IOW, you broke the law 30 years ago...Posted by USC1 12/12/2007 @ 3:32pm

    USC, my question is this....would you put in jail somebody who broke the laws on illegal drugs 30 years ago?

    Options- 1. Back down from your hard line and show that even YOU can be compromised on the eeeeevvvillllls of narcotics.

    2. Push for the arrest of George W. Bush on illegal drug use charges.

    Your choice, of course.

    Posted by Mask at 12/12/2007 @ 4:08pm

88. Posted by JORCHEIM 12/12/2007 @ 4:02pm

    As noted to B_KOOL, on another thread....somebody says something so monumentally stupid or heartless as SLIVER and his 'acceptable losses' of women if abortion were re-criminalized...

    I gotta save it!

    heheh

    Posted by Mask at 12/12/2007 @ 4:10pm

89. MASK:

    Good point. I'm actually impressed.

    Posted by jorcheim at 12/12/2007 @ 4:19pm

90. Posted by USC1 12/12/2007 @ 3:32pm

    Make rational laws, based on science. Not fear based cultural bullshit.

    Maybe then, I'll respect the law.

    As it stands I have virtually zero respect for any branch of "my" government, from my local sheriffs dept to the bush admin.

    Unrepresented. Unimpressed. Get back to me when I get a voice in my government.

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/12/2007 @ 4:57pm

91. Posted by MALCONTENT 12/12/2007 @ 4:57pm

    What a petulant bunch of cry-baby BS

    Posted by usc1 at 12/12/2007 @ 5:15pm

92. Posted by MALCONTENT 12/12/2007 @ 4:57pm

    What a petulant bunch of cry-baby BS

    Posted by usc1 at 12/12/2007 @ 5:15pm

93. Posted by MALCONTENT 12/12/2007 @ 4:57pm

    What a petulant bunch of cry-baby BS

    Posted by usc1 at 12/12/2007 @ 5:15pm

94. oops...hit submit by mistake...multiple times

    You sound like my 5 year old. "I don't have to because I don't want to!!!" Grow up, grow a pair, and start acting like an adult. The laws apply to everyone and are not up to your "discriminating tastes." If you don't like them, then work to change them. Until then, your posts are the equivalent of a child's blaming others to justify his own bad behavior.

    Posted by usc1 at 12/12/2007 @ 5:24pm

95. Judging by some of your posts here, it sounds like you would not have a problem if government officials starting putting up CHRISTmas trees all over public grounds. After all, laws prohibiting this don't "represent" 90% of America...sooo you'll kindly tell your friends in the ACLU to "stick it and sell it someplace else" because their laws don't apply to us.

    Posted by usc1 at 12/12/2007 @ 5:37pm

96. Posted by USC1 12/12/2007 @ 5:37pm

    Judging by some of your posts here, you are a mindless, unthinking peon, conditioned to bow to any authority, no matter how corrupt or dishonest.

    Do you really think I give a rats ass, what a narrow minded submissive moron, such as yourself, thinks of me?

    Just remember, it is narrow minded pricks, like yourself, with their authoritarian bent, who impose their views on others. My liberal views, in no way impinge on your ability to live/view the world the way you do. Only authoritarian whack-jobs, impose their will, based on their horrid misconceptions of reality.

    You have made no useful contribution here all day. Fuck off.

    Eric

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/12/2007 @ 5:45pm

97. Hey sliver,

    Do any research on how wrong your assertions have been all day? Or do you revel in your ignorance.

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/12/2007 @ 5:48pm

98. Posted by MALCONTENT 12/12/2007 @ 5:45pm

    Awwwww...widdle Ewic doesn't wike when peopow show how wong he is. Sowwy Ewic, but youw bweaking the waw and no mattew how you twy to justify it, you'we wong.

    BTW, have YOU examined how youw actions/choices affect othews? How you'we contwibuting to the dwug twade? The message youw iwwegaw activities sends to othews? Ow do you wevew in youw ignowance?

    Posted by usc1 at 12/12/2007 @ 6:02pm

99. Posted by USC1 12/12/2007 @ 6:02pm

    What happened to your interpreter? You native english is hard to read.

    You have yet to show how I am wrong.

    Breaking an asinine law, based on racist bullshit precepts and propped up by tax revenue sucking fascist swindlers, is wrong?

    Bummer.

    Please show me where the constitution removes my right to self-medicate.

    My choices? Hmm... Does my choice to purchase (presumption, on your part) drugs cause the problem? Or does your insistence on propping up a black market cause more damage?

    I am nobody's role model. There are no children in my home any longer. If you follow me, instead of making your own decisions, you have bigger issues that breaking some asinine law. (There are at least 30 million of us, by the way).

    Your last question is unintelligible to me. But, it probably was lame anyway....the last word seems to be "ignorance"... well, you're probably an expert on that. I happen to be an expert on this topic, so I am sure you're not referring to me.

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/12/2007 @ 6:17pm

100. Posted by MALCONTENT 12/12/2007 @ 2:27pm

     Somehow being called an idiot by a stoner who hasn't grown up and kicked the habit after 30 years makes me laugh, rather than offends me. Nice job! You said that you don't take it upon yourself to be anyone's role model, but if you've raised kids, you have been one by default. Do they ignore other laws like yourself, or are they a quick source for a nickel-bag?

     I'm sorry that I don't rise to your level of intellect, but I don't have all the smoke-filled voices running around in my head to pontificate my wisdom. You guys have fun though.

     Frosty...nice paste job. Since you included stabbings from Bulgaria in 1983, and militia attacks in Africa from 1972, while glossing over the "assault weapons" claim, I guess you can just relegate your car crash data as simply "substance abuse".

     Simple question guys...states are banning cigarette smoking in more and more states. How is it that pot is going to be different?

     Posted by Sliver at 12/12/2007 @ 6:49pm

101. I enjoy the self-righteous blathering, about how bad "drugs" are from people, who's posts have previously implied, that they consume alcohol far more frequently, than I smoke a doobie.

     Their only valid point is about the law.

     Although it seems to me they should be more concerned about, how locking up innocent Americans, based on racist lies and cultural war, tends to lessen many peoples respect for the law.

     Not whether what I do in the privacy of my own home is against said lies, I mean laws.

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/12/2007 @ 7:34pm

102. Posted by MALCONTENT 12/12/2007 @ 7:34pm

     Hey, I hear you, brother. I'm totally with you, dude! Now, will you sign this petition to free Michael Vick. You did mean what you said about asinine laws, culture wars and the "privacy of your own home," right? You weren't just BSing, were you? I mean, there's nothing in the constitution that removes his right to entertain himself and others, is there?

     Posted by usc1 at 12/12/2007 @ 8:18pm

103. Posted by USC1 12/12/2007 @ 8:18pm

     You seriously think animal cruelty is an inalienable right? (Like I think my birthright to self-medicate is?)

     Personally I don't think gambling should be illegal, but 1.) I don't have the slightest desire to gamble my hard earned money, and 2.) Gambling on the outcome of an act of animal cruelty would be a crime, either way.

     Question: Is my smoking a joint, more akin to you having a drink, or some asshole torturing a dog?

     (For the record, I had to google his name, to refresh my memory, as I generally don't care what celebrities and sports whores do anyway).

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/12/2007 @ 8:28pm

104. Posted by MALCONTENT 12/12/2007 @ 8:28pm

     Hey, man, he's just entertaining himself and some friends in the privacy of his own home/property. You're not trying to revoke his right to privacy, are you? I would have thought you would have been fighting for that right. Besides, like you mentioned earlier, this is a cultural thing...if you followed the story, you would have heard several other black people defend him based on "cultural" grounds. So who are you to judge his culture? Sure, you might find dog-fighting revolting and want it illegal, but that doesn't mean he has to follow the law...at least not according to your reasoning. We should just remove the law so we don't offend others who disagree with it.

     Isn't that how your logic works?

     Posted by usc1 at 12/12/2007 @ 9:29pm

105. Isn't that how your logic works?

     Posted by USC1 12/12/2007 @ 9:29pm

     No.

     You never answered my question.

     How does my inhaling smoke,(Medically proven to be safer than alcohol), compare to externalizing violence, on an innocent animal?

     If you truly cannot grasp the difference, that would at least explain alot of your other posts.

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/12/2007 @ 9:45pm

106. USC, I believe Eric is asking an absolutely rational question...in response to what appears to be your absolutely irrational attemp to draw a comparison between smoking a joint and torturing at least several innocent dogs to death.

     It seems to be a rather bizzarre comparison...and I too would love to hear your explanation.

     Posted by Lillian at 12/12/2007 @ 9:55pm

107. Simple question guys...states are banning cigarette smoking in more and more states. How is it that pot is going to be different?

     Posted by SLIVER 12/12/2007 @ 6:49pm | ignore this person

     2 rather "simpler" questions Sliver...

     Exactly which "states are banning cigarette smoking in more and more states"? (...because here in the United States...there aren't any.)

     And, EVERY state in the United States already has laws against pot...to one degree or another. None has 'decrimiinalized' it, nor has the federal government. So, doesn't that mean that pot is already 'different'?

     Posted by Lillian at 12/12/2007 @ 10:02pm

108. You believe that anti-drug laws are based on some fear-based cultural BS. I am proposing that laws against dog-fighting are based on cultural BS as well. I've already pointed out that Vick's defenders have stated it's part of their culture and see absolutely nothing wrong with it. So, again, the question to you is why do you allow your culture to dictate laws to Vick,et al what they can or can't do? According to you, they should be able to ignore the law. They weren't harming anyone and whatever they were doing, it was on their own property. (This of course brings up a wonderful clash...what happened to Vick's right to privacy? We'll leave that debate alone for now since you're already having so much trouble with the current one.)

     To put it simply, you smoke pot even though it's illegal because you don't see anything wrong with it. Vick and others were involved in dog-fighting even though it was illegal because they didn't see anything wrong with it. What's the difference?

     Posted by usc1 at 12/12/2007 @ 10:35pm

109. And I'd like an answer to my previous question

     Should mayors, governors, public officials etc be allowed to put up Christmas trees on public property? You might say it's against the law, but that doesn't stop you, now does it? And there's no question that this is cultural BS. Better yet, did you side with Judge Moore when he defied another judge's order to remove the Ten Commandments monument from his courthouse?

     While you're trying to answer, keep in mind that these questions are dealing with determining exactly which laws we can ignore and which we should obey.

     Posted by usc1 at 12/12/2007 @ 10:42pm

110. What's the difference?

     Posted by USC1 12/12/2007 @ 10:35pm

     My smoking effects me.

     Torturing dogs, affects them. Externalizing the damage removes it from ones exclusive purview.

     If you weren't an inherently selfish righty, you could grasp that.

     Apparently, you think torturing animal, while legal (or maybe because it's legal), is ok. While smoking is illegal, so it must be bad?

     Your analogies are inane.

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/12/2007 @ 10:43pm

111. Still no answer to any question posed to you.

     Typical.

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/12/2007 @ 10:44pm

112. Can I smoke in the park? (Do I?)

     Your attempt to twist the topic, over to your proclivity to try blurring the lines between church and state, is only further indicative of the cultural bias these laws are based on.

     If you ever drink, your position is the height of arrogance and hypocrisy.

     Go publicly dilute your blood with solvents, tell your neo-con buddies how clever you are (without addressing a single question directly)...then drive home (over somebody).

     I will retire to the other room and have a toke this evening, in honor of the eventual demise (via evolution, which you probably don't even believe in), of your mentality.

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/12/2007 @ 10:54pm

113. Posted by SLIVER 12/12/2007 @ 6:49pm

     dude,

     you make light of hundreds, if not thousands, of kids being killed by firearms AT SCHOOL.

     god help you.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 11:24pm

114. Posted by USC1 12/12/2007 @ 10:42pm

     i can't find an answer to my question.

     do you speed?

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 11:25pm

115. While you're trying to answer, keep in mind that these questions are dealing with determining exactly which laws we can ignore and which we should obey.

     Posted by USC1 12/12/2007 @ 10:42pm

     do you speed?

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 11:27pm

116. do you speed?

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/12/2007 @ 11:28pm

117. Posted by MALCONTENT 12/12/2007 @ 10:43pm

     For someone who supposedly is liberal and open in his thinking, you sure do have trouble with thinking outside the box. Maybe you're doing it willingly to avoid the obvious.

     Externalizing the damage removes it from ones exclusive purview.

     You're still ignoring your contribution to the illegal drug trade. You are also continuing to ignore the example you set for others...that some laws don't have to be followed. You see, despite your protestations to the contrary, you are in fact sending the wrong message to others. The damage you do is much more insidious.

     If you weren't such a self-involved lefty you could grasp that.

     Apparently, you think torturing animal, while legal (or maybe because it's legal), is ok. While smoking is illegal, so it must be bad?

     I have never stated my position on either of these topics...good or bad, so feel free to take your conjecture and cram it. I am merely demonstrating to you the "silly" in your logic. Dog-fighting is the perfect example...an activity that is culturally-based, is done on private property, does not harm anyone (i.e. people). (I believe these are the same arguments you gave for ignoring anti-drug laws.) Better yet, the activity is so grotesque and offensive that you couldn't possibly defend it...so now you are stuck.

     And before you bring up the harm to the animals, I will remind you once again that the people involved in this don't see anything wrong with it...it is their culture ( same as bullfighting in Pamplona, cockfighting in Mexico and the Phillipines). You are supposed to see the law through their eyes, un-affected by your personal ethics.

     Posted by usc1 at 12/12/2007 @ 11:44pm

118. Posted by MALCONTENT 12/12/2007 @ 10:54pm

     Again avoiding the topic and not answering the question.

     Do you agree with letting public officials display Christmas decorations on public property? Should they be allowed to ignore the current law just as you do? Why or why not?

     If you ever drink, your position is the height of arrogance and hypocrisy.

     I have 1 drink per night mainly because I've read it is beneficial for my heart. And it's legal. How is that hypocritical?

     Posted by usc1 at 12/12/2007 @ 11:54pm

119. Posted by USC1 12/12/2007 @ 11:44pm

     do you speed?

     do you speed?

     do you speed?

     do you speed?

     do you speed?

     do you speed?

     simple question. please answer

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/13/2007 @ 12:06am

120. And it's legal. How is that hypocritical?

     Posted by USC1 12/12/2007 @ 11:54pm

     do you speed?

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/13/2007 @ 12:07am

121. Christmas trees, linked, with the war on drugs. Uhh, ok, that makes sense (sarcasm meter just exploded) ...

     Posted by V at 12/13/2007 @ 12:45am

122. Posted by V 12/13/2007 @ 12:45am

     i bet he speeds.....................

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/13/2007 @ 01:02am

123. Posted by V 12/13/2007 @ 12:45am

     look for these delicious scottish ales flavoured with spruce.

     see, there's a connection between christmas trees and drug use.

     cheers, laddie!

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/13/2007 @ 01:08am

124. Heaven forbid the topic continue to range over the aforementioned hypocrisy of legal tobacco, illegal cannabis. Or my mentioned, once, every two, to five years, favorite; "The only indices relating to drugs, wherein African Americans actually outnumber those of more direct European descent is, in Media reporting and being processed by the Justice system."

     Which at core, means, not in dying of overdoses. I bet I could fill a "Katrina" sized stadium, not with flood victims, but with white soccer moms. Who thought as they stood over the grave of a (their) dead child, "if she only knew, it was their, problem, too" One wonders, as they doubtless did, and, doubtless do, with proper information which of those deaths could be, have been, avoided? Another case and example wherein the MSM has blood on its hands ...

     The metaphor for white America being that of allowing the (ostensibly, white supremacist, but not really ...) power structure shoot with live rounds through their own children, with bullets that kill, but will only incarcerate the dark child. The metaphor holds because, at some point, though the time is 100 to 1 in terms of ratio, in regards to the length of sentencing disparities, the dark child will in time get out of prison, but barring the rapture, the light child is staying in, never leaving, the cold earth ...

     Doubtless, if asked, they will not (consciously) consider the life of their child a willing sacrifice to the established order. If only grief was as eloquent, as the silence of unspoken truth to power, in this tragedy. This reality has gone totally unprocessed by the majority, surely not in their(such as it is, of course) media ... Now that the number of wrongfully, needlessly, dead, approaches that of Pol Pot's Cambodia perhaps it is time, to make it time, if it is not time ... for a change (pun intended).

     KVH ... sanity? From your lips to Gods ears, angel ...

     Posted by V at 12/13/2007 @ 01:33am

125. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/13/2007 @ 01:02am | ignore this person

     Of course he does. The fact that he went "there," is an indication of how divorced (doubtless not having been fed, any ready made talking points) he is from reality.

     Posted by V at 12/13/2007 @ 01:40am

126. Posted by V 12/13/2007 @ 12:45am

     Go back and read for comprehension and even in your cluttered little mind will you see the connection.

     I'll even give you an assist...

     Eric disagrees with the anti-drug laws and thus feels justified in flagrantly disobeying them.

     Public officials could then state they disagree with laws that prohibit Christmas trees in the public square and then feel justified in ignoring them.

     See the connection? Give it a minute...any second now...the clouds will lift...any second now...there you go.

     Posted by usc1 at 12/13/2007 @ 08:44am

127. FZ:

     Sorry. Somehow you made it on my ignore list...don't know how or why that happened.

     The answer is no. With a young family, I don't take unnecessary risks. Nor am I in THAT big of a hurry. Do you speed? I wouldn't be surprised if you did. Blatant disrespect for the law seems to be endemic with liberals. I should expect as much from folks who believe in a "living, breathing Constitution," which for liberals usually means "malleable to whatever suits our needs at the time."

     Posted by usc1 at 12/13/2007 @ 09:02am

128. Now, USC, I'd like an answer to MY question....

     if somebody used illegal drugs 30 years ago, should they be arrested now?

     Or (if you want to be merciful) should they, as criminals, be allowed to hold public office?

     Posted by Mask at 12/13/2007 @ 09:36am

129. USC,

     If you cannot see, by this advanced stage in your life, that there is a huge difference between controlling the private actions of consenting adults and engaging in behavior that endangers/injures others and impinges on their freedom....then you are lost.

     The law creates the black market, with all the associated crime (The crime not related to actually doing drugs, but selling them as a black market commodity).

     The CIA needs that money to oppress us. Why don't you support the CIA? They torture.

     I grow my own herbs... most of my veggies too. I don't have to worry about my supporting the CIA with my habit.

     NO, I do not endorse lying to children to manipulate their behavior. I bet you are a big fan of D.A.R.E. and other proven wastes of taxpayer money. That is more offensive than my behavior.

     Done trying to reason, with one who has proven to be even dumber than my original (admittedly obnoxious) assessment. You truly are an idiot.

     Why do you hate Americans and their concepts of individual liberty?

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/13/2007 @ 09:39am

130. It was originally ACOOK's attempt to apply her personal experience, in a pragmatic way, that prompted my question.

     My question still stands, but I would like to hear from somebody who disagrees, but who's brain actually seems to function.

     (In other words, not sliver or the ever retarded USC1 (Who has yet to answer a direct question)).

     How about it Acook?

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/13/2007 @ 09:42am

131. USC1- Please tell me if your moniker refers to the Gamecocks or the Trojans, because whichever it is, I will make sure that no one I know ever goes to school there. I have read a lot of stupid shit from flat earth, evolution denying cretins on this site, but comparing the torture of dogs to smoking cannabis has got to be THE MOST MORONIC, ASSININE SHIT I HAVE EVER READ! Do you even pause to collect your inane thoughts for two seconds before making an "analogy" such as this, or do you just instinctively type whatever gibberish pops into your feeble mind? I'm also fairly certain Saint Douche is lying about having never sped- shit, the guy is probably a closet molester- so many of these hyper authoritarian twits are.

     Posted by entropy at 12/13/2007 @ 10:03am

132. Mal- ACOOK doesn't "believe" that humans are primates. You might as well try to have a rational discussion with a rock.

     Posted by entropy at 12/13/2007 @ 10:05am

133. Posted by USC1 12/13/2007 @ 09:02am

     maybe i'm on auto-ignore!

     no, i don't speed. it wastes too much gas. drives other people crazy, though. but i invariably pull up to them at a red light, so i just laugh.

     55 saves lives (and oodles of war-inspiring gas, too!) -- see, jimmy carter wasn't all that dumb.

     i love seeing christmas trees and nativity scenes on government property, and i'm not christian.

     it'd be cool to see every (at least those represented by a sizeable portion of the population) religion represented in a similar way when there festivities come up, too.

     you want ten commandments in gov't buildings? great! 10 tidbits of great advice.

     but throw in some buddha, too.

     and this gem from the qur'an:

     [2.271] If you give alms openly, it is well, and if you hide it and give it to the poor, it is better for you; and this will do away with some of your evil deeds; and Allah is aware of what you do.

     and from talmud:

     He who by usury and ill-gotten gain increaseth his substance, it sball be taken from him by him who pities the poor (Prov. xxviii.). When a non-Jew wants to borrow of you, you will perhaps say that since you are not permitted to take usury from your own compatriot you may take it from a nonJew. Be assured that such ill-gotten gain will be taken from you; probably by the authorities, to erect baths or other sanitary buildings for the poor or the stranger.

     wow. liberals were mucking things up way back when (sarcasm).

     karma.

     but we cannot make one religion rule over another:

     to quote another prophet:

     As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of all government, to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know of no other business which government hath to do therewith. Let a man throw aside that narrowness of soul, that selfishness of principle, which the niggards of all professions are so unwilling to part with, and he will be at once delivered of his fears on that head. Suspicion is the companion of mean souls, and the bane of all good society.

     -- thomas paine, common sense --

     to the more pertinent question of drug use:

     laws of ancient times have been changed because of common sense.

     perhaps this british study of the effects of different drugs could become the basis of more sane public policy:

     Most dangerous drugs

     Research recently published in the medical journal The Lancet rates the most dangerous drugs (starting with the worst) as follows:

     1. Heroin

     2. Cocaine

     3. Barbiturates

     4. Street methadone

     5. Alcohol

     6. Ketamine

     7. Benzodiazepines

     8. Amphetamine

     9. Tobacco

     10. Buprenorphine

     11. Cannabis

     12. Solvents

     13. 4-MTA

     14. LSD

     15. Methylphenidate

     16. Anabolic steroids

     17. GHB

     18. Ecstasy

     19. Alkyl nitrates

     20. Khat

     Source: The Lancet

     "Tobacco causes 40 percent of all hospital illnesses, while alcohol is blamed for more than half of all visits to hospital emergency rooms. The substances also harm society in other ways, damaging families and occupying police services."

     http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17760130/

     what's your favourite drug?

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/13/2007 @ 10:17am

134. I got a whole new group of posters for my ignore list from this article!

     Frosty Zoom, I usually get annoyed by long, long posts, but yours with the facts from gun violence were awesome! Thank you so much for that; it was informative and very, very creative.

     I agree with everyone who is in favor of legalizing and decriminalizing mind altering substances. Of course it's not the same as abuse of children, dogs, or any living being!

     And anyone (not naming names here, but they are all now on my ignore list) who thinks using recreational drugs should be avoided because "it's illegal" is probably dillusional about his or her own behavior. Frosty and others, you are again right on! Most people who get all self-righteous about following the letter of the law speed at least 5 MPH over the limit when driving or engage in some other technically illegal activity.

     In some places, it's still illegal to perform certain sexual acts with one's own spouse. When I was growing up in Pennsylvania during the 60s, it was illegal to buy a toy for your child on Sunday because of the "blue" laws. A store in the Allentown area called "Two Guys from Harrison" decided it was economically advantageous to stay open and sell whatever they wanted on Sunday and simply pay the fine. Other stores followed and the blue laws were discarded.

     Disobeying absurd laws is one way of protesting them. Oh! Gee! This sounds like an American tradition!

     Drug laws are stupid and counterproductive. Making drugs legal would be unlikely to increase the activity of drug lords in Mexico or elsewhere. It's the very illegality that encourages their profit.

     I know it's repetitious, but to add my voice to the masses: Alcohol and tobacco are much more destructive than cannibis, putting people in prison for getting high simply exposes them to the more violent criminal element and makes them resentful of authority, and what people do in the privacy of their own homes should be their own business.

     A study in Canada in the past few years (which I found on the internet and can no longer find, but fortunately I printed it out at the time) discovered that there is virtually no evidence whatsoever that shows pot smokers cause accidents. This is partly due to lack of research, but what research does exist indicates that pot smokers tend to be much more cautious while driving, drive more slowly than they do when sober, and are therefore not likely to be dangerous drivers.

     In fact, the entire study was supposed to show how "pot really is a very bad thing" and wound up proving just the opposite. That is, pot is not a "gateway" drug (alcohol, however, may be), it does not cause longterm damage, it does not lead to any type of criminal activity aside from providing contact to dealers (which would not happen if it were legal), and it is generally a pretty harmless mind-altering substance compared to alcohol or tobacco.

     Posted by LeeAnnG at 12/13/2007 @ 11:21am

135. Oh! And Malcontent, this was priceless! "Why do you hate Americans and their concepts of individual liberty?"

     I'm still laughing!

     In support of the posters who've indicated they have used pot and still managed to be productive, let me say that I know lots and lots - probably hundreds - of people who are either regular users, semi-regular users, or past users. With only one or two exceptions, they are contributing members of society including teachers, lawyers, business owners, secretaries, school administrators, artists, musicians, factory workers, waitresses, homemakers, electricians, programmers, and a whole variety of others. It's not limited to fringe elements, losers, and trouble makers. And, interestingly, the exceptions to the "contributing members of society" rule are excessive drinkers. Go figure.

     Posted by LeeAnnG at 12/13/2007 @ 11:29am

136. Posted by LEEANNG 12/13/2007 @ 11:21am

     thanks.

     i hesitate to post such mega-long posts, but sometimes it's the only way.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/13/2007 @ 11:46am

137. Hey Frosty,

     I for one, appreciate most of your posts. (Even the uber-long ones).

     But, I feel the need to point out one thing you said;

     "55 saves lives"

     I thought i was reading A USC1 poet, for a sec.

     Don't let him rub off on you. Simple research would have prevented you from posting that.

     Post on.

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/13/2007 @ 12:07pm

138. USC1-All Americans break the law every day and not just those who smoke weed.

     Posted by i'm nobody at 12/13/2007 @ 12:07pm

139. I agree with Malcontent - I enjoy your posts, Frosty (also those of Malcontent, Zero, and several other regulars). They are usually witty, insightful, and fun to read.

     I don't let any of the freepers, trolls, wingnuts, or non-thinkers get to me at all. I give them a chance or two to prove they are not complete idiots and then I zap 'em to my ignore list.

     Posted by LeeAnnG at 12/13/2007 @ 12:11pm

140. USC1-Doing something to yourself is quite different then doing something to an animal or human and the fact that you can't see the difference is quite scary.

     Posted by i'm nobody at 12/13/2007 @ 12:15pm

141. Mask:

     Sorry. I missed it the first time around.

     If you are caught disobeying the law, then you should be punished according to the law.

     Posted by usc1 at 12/13/2007 @ 1:02pm

142. Eric, I'm, LeeAnn (if you're still there), FZ

     I absolutely LOVE this debate. Why? Here I am, a supposedly conformist, rigidly-thinking conservative up against so-believing "free" thinkers, yet I am the only one who is willing or able to step out of my morality to try to understand how other people might view a certain situation. The point is not whether I think dog-fighting is acceptable. The point is whether Vick and his "friends" find dog-fighting acceptable and why. Once again, according to them, they see nothing wrong with it because it is part of their culture. The dogs are born and bred to fight. So spare me the plaintive cries of how harmful it is to dogs--it doesn't matter if you find it repulsive because that is a representation of YOUR moral values, not theirs.

     Transpose this onto Eric's argument that he is ignoring the law because it is based on "cultural BS." You find that stance perfectly appropriate because it is in congruence with your beliefs, yet you won't accept the same explanation from Vick and his associates. Why? If one's "cultural beliefs" are acceptable to justify someone's actions in one instance, why aren't they acceptable in another?

     Posted by usc1 at 12/13/2007 @ 1:24pm

143. USC1-You have no logic or morals.There isn't any culture that has dog fighting as part of that culture.Only an amoral person would claim that committing acts of violence,torture,and death is the same act as driving 5 miles per hour over the speed limit or smoking a joint.Weed and other drugs are used by all types of people from all cultures.You,like everyone else, ignore laws every day and run that stop sign or drive a little fast because you're late to work,but trying to compare that to torturing animals is sick.

     Posted by i'm nobody at 12/13/2007 @ 1:36pm

144. Entropy and all

     I should have included you in the above post, too. I'm sorry you have difficulty expanding your tightly regimented thinking, but I was always taught to look at situations from different angles. I didn't need college for that.

     BTW, I didn't say I never sped. I said I DON'T speed...A rather expensive ticket 12 years ago cured me of that. The difference is I didn't whine and cry about how stupid speed limits are or what my punishment was. I knew speeding was wrong, did it anyway and I got caught. I took it like a man and moved on.

     Posted by usc1 at 12/13/2007 @ 1:39pm

145. USC1-Your claim that you're perfect and never would break the law is hysterical and was your claim of manliness.

     Posted by i'm nobody at 12/13/2007 @ 1:44pm

146. I'm,

     Still having trouble seeing this from a different perspective, I notice. You and Entropy must have gone to the same community college. BTW, you're wrong. Vick and his associates claim it is part of their culture. Even teammates/football players who supposedly did not engage in the activities agreed with them. Who are you to refute their claims? Someone who does not share their culture, I imagine.

     All,

     Well, I can't explain it more plainly than I already have. I guess I really shouldn't be surprised that you liberals can't seem to grasp the concept. You guys probably still believe Clinton was impeached for a getting a BJ, when in fact he was impeached for perjury.

     Well, that's all for today.

     Posted by usc1 at 12/13/2007 @ 1:54pm

147. I'm,

     You're reading comprehension is actually what's hysterical. Please point out where I said I was perfect and that I never BROKE the law (Watch those tenses. They can be tricky things.).

     I'll wait..............

     Posted by usc1 at 12/13/2007 @ 1:58pm

148. USC1-The Community college crack was immature and your your way of admitting defeat.Vick can claim anything he wants,but he was unable to show that it was part of his culture because it isn't and so he had no evidence that it was.There isn't any culture where the majority of members attend dog fights and that's reality and the idiocy that Vick and you make up is just that.Idiocy.You are trying to say that torture and killing are the same as smoking a joint and that simply shows that you lack morals.The reason you can't explain it more plainly than you have is because you know that you're wrong and have no explanations.I noticed that your manly self is running from the discussion,however.

     Posted by i'm nobody at 12/13/2007 @ 2:07pm

149. USC1-Break(the word I used) is present tense whereas broke(your word) is past tense.What college did you graduate from?

     Posted by i'm nobody at 12/13/2007 @ 2:08pm

150. USC1-I just asked my dogs if I should smoke a joint or torture and kill them and they said that they strongly prefer that I smoke a joint.I explained the cultural thing to them,but they didn't buy it because they aren't that ignorant.

     Posted by i'm nobody at 12/13/2007 @ 2:39pm

151. If you are caught disobeying the law, then you should be punished according to the law.

     Posted by USC1 12/13/2007 @ 1:02pm

     Okay, but not if it happened 30 years ago...right?

     Okay, first step is saying that drug use is a MINOR crime.

     After all, we still punish folks who murder or rape, even if it happened 30 years ago. So USC1 agrees that drug use should fall into that category of MALLEABLE laws by which a "statute of limitations" should be applied.

     Now...how much more "liberal" a view of the "criminality" of illegal drug use can we coax out of him?

     Posted by Mask at 12/13/2007 @ 3:06pm

152. Posted by USC1 12/13/2007 @ 08:44am | ignore this person

     It is not that I do not "see," it is that I could care less.

     Posted by V at 12/13/2007 @ 4:08pm

153. "55 saves lives"

     I thought i was reading A USC1 poet, for a sec.

     Don't let him rub off on you. Simple research would have prevented you from posting that.

     Post on.

     Posted by MALCONTENT 12/13/2007 @ 12:07pm

     ¿como?

     driving slower must be safer.

     and it sure saves gas, ask my (made in canada) civic.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/13/2007 @ 4:38pm

154. Posted by USC1 12/13/2007 @ 1:54pm

     ripping out slaves hearts was a part of aztec culture.

     having slaves was part of american culture.

     f*cked up stuff, is f*cked up stuff.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/13/2007 @ 4:43pm

155. USC1-I just asked my dogs if I should smoke a joint or torture and kill them and they said that they strongly prefer that I smoke a joint.I explained the cultural thing to them,but they didn't buy it because they aren't that ignorant.

     Posted by I'M NOBODY 12/13/2007 @ 2:39pm

     excellent.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/13/2007 @ 4:44pm

156. Recipe: Iraqi-Socialist Bonfire

     You will need: $100 Bills - fresh minted, hot off the press

     Say, 1000 bills per "brick" - that's 1 brick = $100,000

     Say, 50 "bricks" per box - that's 1 box = $5,000,000

     Say, 25 boxes per crate - that's 1 crate = $250,000,000

     4 crates = $1 Billion Dollars

     Unwrap the crates and distribute the boxes in a pile

     1 Gallon Gasoline

     Pour the Gasoline over the boxes

     1 candle and 1 cigaratte lighter

     From a distance of at least 15 feet, light the candle on fire using the cigarette lighter. Throw the candle at the boxes. The boxes will ignite.

     Posted by conshame at 12/13/2007 @ 4:53pm

157. Mask:

     I just had lunch so I'm afraid I don't have room for all the words you're trying to put in my mouth.

     For all other "webs" you try to sew, I'll defer to my earlier post.

     V,

     And yet you felt compelled to comment on it.

     I'm,

     Actually, you used "would break" which is conditional simple tense. At which community college did you fail English? No matter. It will distract you from finding where I stated that I was perfect or would never break the law. Still waiting...

     I'll get to the rest of your claptrap tonight.

     FZ,

     I didn't way it wasn't F'd up. I never said it was right. I simply was pointing out that Eric's excuse that he could ignore the law because it was "cultural BS" was, in and of itself, BS.

     Posted by usc1 at 12/13/2007 @ 5:01pm

158. 1 Gallon Gasoline

     Pour the Gasoline over the boxes................

     Posted by CONSHAME 12/13/2007 @ 4:53pm

     dunno, gas is next to impossible to get in iraq................

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/13/2007 @ 5:12pm

159. If you cannot see the difference between smoking a plant and torturing a dog, then I feel sorry for you, and anyone unfortunate enough to come into direct contact with you. Your "points" have been thoroughly eviscerated by everyone here, and I cannot imagine even your fellow rightists rising to your defence here, which probably explains their welcome abscence- you embarass even the shameless with your stupidity. Just admit that you made an utterly moronic analogy and spare yourself further public ridicule.

     Posted by entropy at 12/13/2007 @ 5:17pm

160. USC, I've read some of your posts, and you are a feeble interlocutor even when not arguing in favor of a completely indefensible point. I don't understand why lackwits such as yourself choose to publicly humiliate themselves by posting their incoherent ramblings on a forum where they know quite well their arguments will be gutted. Are you so stupid that you don't realize you lost this "debate" the second you attempted to equate smoking cannabis with dog torture?

     Posted by entropy at 12/13/2007 @ 5:23pm

161. USC, I've read some of your posts, and you are a feeble interlocutor even when not arguing in favor of a completely indefensible point. I don't understand why lackwits such as yourself choose to publicly humiliate themselves by posting their incoherent ramblings on a forum where they know quite well their arguments will be gutted. Are you so stupid that you don't realize you lost this "debate" the second you attempted to equate smoking cannabis with dog torture?

     Posted by entropy at 12/13/2007 @ 5:24pm

162. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/13/2007 @ 4:38pm

     "driving slower must be safer."

     Now your thinking like USC1 (i.e. posting thoughts w/o research)

     (I thought we just covered that...)

     "and it sure saves gas, ask my (made in canada) civic."

     That it does...even if my civic wasn't made in canada...it'll be ok. (If you like to go far, for very little, you should try a diesel motorcycle. Slow but fun! Top speed 69mph. You could handle that).

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/13/2007 @ 5:27pm

163. If patriots hadn't disobeyed unjust laws then we wouldn't even have a country to begin with, and if said patriots had not continued to disobey unjust laws we would have only a tiny fraction of the freedom we enjoy. Take your facile, proto fascist, authoritarian bullshit and cram it up your ass Ned Flanders. Just another reason why that whole "the republicans are for more personal liberty and less gov. intrusion" line is a bucket of monkey feces.

     Posted by entropy at 12/13/2007 @ 5:29pm

164. MarkCanyon-You're a complete degenerate and we don't advocate for you or wish to protect you.There are numerous drug addicts and alcoholics who live successful and what appears to be disciplined lives and would not be considered the weakest links.Maintain good jobs,raise good families,etc.Odd fact.

     Posted by i'm nobody at 12/13/2007 @ 6:06pm

165. "And yet you felt compelled to comment on it."

     Posted by USC1 12/13/2007 @ 5:01pm | ignore this person

     Actually, what I am compelled to do is, perhaps, write on the care and feeding of trolls. As in it really should not happen. What I (aside from mild pity) felt, was that the points you make were, and are, a superfluous distraction. And sans comment, how could this be known? So, don't flatter yourself as the "it" had nothing to do with the banal, wholly specious "argument" you're engaged in. It was for clarity's sake, nothing else, as you are here for attention ... and nothing else. This is all you get from me, directly. Though you might make something of a worthy example, of what's to be avoided. As regards a flawed crystallization of an adult. If so, don't take it personal.

     Posted by V at 12/13/2007 @ 7:03pm

166. Posted by MARKCANYON 12/13/2007 @ 5:27pm | ignore this person

     ...::Sigh::... The shear, dufus, ignorant, racist stupidity ... of your comment, magnified, as, in being that stupid, you can still gather (from I know not where) the gall to be condescending. Now what does the emoting, prejudice over perception, nonsense, you dribbled, have to do with this established fact?

     "Or my mentioned, once, every two, to five years, favorite; "The only indices relating to drugs, wherein African Americans actually outnumber those of more direct European descent is, in Media reporting and being processed by the Justice system."

     Posted by V 12/13/2007 @ 01:33am | ignore this person

     Posted by V at 12/13/2007 @ 7:14pm

167. Hmmm ... one can't even melt and pour a troll, on a good topic directly.

     Posted by V at 12/13/2007 @ 7:17pm

168. Slow but fun! Top speed 69mph. You could handle that).

     Posted by MALCONTENT 12/13/2007 @ 5:27pm

     i like to bike.

     the fender twin doesn't fit very well, though.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/13/2007 @ 9:30pm

169. I'm, Entropy,

     Still can't see the forest for the trees, can you? For the same reason you still believe that Clinton was impeached over a BJ (when he was impeached because of perjury), you still can't grasp the point of my argument. My point from the beginning has been that Michael Vick and associates used the same justification for disobeying the law as Eric did...the laws were based on cultural BS. The rest of my posts were an attempt to get you and others to step out of your comfort zones and understand that others might view those acts as normal. For the same reason many Mexicans and Phillipinos don't see anything wrong with cock-fighting and many Spaniards and Mexicans don't have a problem with bull-fighting, Vick and his associates don't see anything wrong with their actions.

     Go back and read again. I NEVER defended Vick's actions. I NEVER agreed with what he did. I NEVER stated Eric's and Vick's crimes were equivalent...just that their reasons for committing said crimes were. I merely explained to you that Vick had a different POV based on his "culture," and that "culture" is why he didn't see a problem with ihis actions. That's where the beauty of this side of the debate comes from. I knew a simple mind such as yours would never be able to get past your own morals or the vulgarity of Vick's actions to understand that no matter how incomprehensible his acts might seem to you, Vick was brought up in a different culture and saw nothing wrong with what he did.

     Just like Eric sees nothing wrong with his illegal actions.

     Posted by usc1 at 12/13/2007 @ 9:57pm

170. I'm

     Two things...

     Before you try to deny Vick his "culture," you might want to check the definition first.

     If you're having conversations with your pets, or more alarming, understanding their responses, then you have bigger issues than this debate. You need to get out, find some new (human) friends...or counselling. MM'K, Tarzan?

     Posted by usc1 at 12/13/2007 @ 10:13pm

171. "I knew a simple mind such as yours would never be able to get past your own morals or the vulgarity of Vick's actions to understand that no matter how incomprehensible his acts might seem to you, Vick was brought up in a different culture and saw nothing wrong with what he did."

     Posted by USC1 12/13/2007 @ 9:57pm

     We all got that the first time.

     What you seemed to (somehow) miss, is the fact that most people abhor the senseless violence and suffering in what vick did. And regardless of how he feels about it, the pain inflicted, was not confined to himself.

     I personally, think dog fighting is lame and indicative of a sick mind. Even if the dogs didn't get hurt.

     But, if they didn't get hurt, I would object to it being illegal. (As you suggested). But the fact remains, it affects more than him.

     Smoking a joint, (unlike drinking and just about all other drugs), provides no risk of death, no increase in violence provides no outlet for anti-social behavior (like drinking).

     You may not like it/be comfortable with it.

     And you may throw around alot of anecdotal ideas. God knows our government has churned out the propaganda for decades.

     But the facts remain. You can find no reason, based on our rationalization for other current laws, in our culture, to ban cannabis.

     No overt health risk, beyond the fact smoking anything is bad for your lungs.

     No tendency to produce anti-social behavior, like alcohol.

     I challenge you to produce a reason, that would stand up to modern scrutiny, and common sense to institute such a law now.

     There are many reasons not to stop the gravy train (at my expense), now.

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/13/2007 @ 10:24pm

172. Posted by MARKCANYON 12/13/2007 @ 5:27pm

     MARK...what was the "bright moment" where the "right people" were sent to the "gas chamber"? Is there a single word term commonly used for that event which you so apparently supported?

     Posted by Mask at 12/13/2007 @ 10:56pm

173. Again for the new kids....from "Prison Reformers Finally Set Free"

     "For one bright moment that came to view well enough in Europe when there were no people of color to confuse the picture. Then the right people, for once, were locked up, and put on Death Row, and sent to gas chamber. For a short moment the picture was clear and honest folks knew what to do.

     That gave the crooks a fright. That was when they hollered like stuck pigs and forced America into war, and bombed Europe to rubble. Then they decided to employ the American answer over there too, and gigantic waves of immigration from Turkey and Africa began to flood Europe. Now there too they have a distraction, fall guys to hate, the wrong people to persecute and jail. Now the fast talking swine are back to ruling the roost even in Russia.

     That's the calculus. Find a scapegoat, a distraction, somebody to hate, keep putting em in jail, and keep the focus off the real culprits.

     Working people must come to their senses. We must defend the innocent against the true enemy. We need a prisoner exchange: Blacks out, Jews in."----Posted by MARKCANYON 10/06/2007 @ 1:15pm |

     Posted by Mask at 12/13/2007 @ 10:58pm

174. If you're having conversations with your pets, or more alarming, understanding their responses, then you have bigger issues than this debate. You need to get out, find some new (human) friends...or counselling. MM'K, Tarzan?

     Posted by USC1 12/13/2007 @ 10:13pm

     have you never had an animal living with you?

     humans aren't the only thing with brains.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/13/2007 @ 11:14pm

175. Posted by MALCONTENT 12/13/2007 @ 10:24pm

     I don't "miss" any of it. What "most" think is irrelevant because "most" weren't brought up in that culture. To put a twist on the old saying "It's a dog-fighting thing. You wouldn't understand." Born and raised in the Phillipines? Suddenly cock-fighting is acceptable...see what I mean?

     Pain and suffering of the animals is irrelevant to them as well, and remember, we're trying to see this from their POV. I imagine they view dogs as nothing more than property, to be tossed aside if the dogs do not perform up to expectations. Pain and suffering is not something that concerns them. It concerns you, obviously, but not them...it's their culture.

     Which brings us back to you both giving "cultural" reasons for engaging in illegal activities.

     ---------------------------------------------------------

     BTW, recent British study links mj use with 41% increased chance for psychosis...hmm, that might explain I'mNobody's ability to converse with dogs.

     http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn12363

     Also, mj users are more likely to be involved in car wrecks

     http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&Te rmToSearch=18054598&ordinalpos=25&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pub med_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

     and

     http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&Te rmToSearch=17278669&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubm ed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus

     (Sorry, don't know how to do the "tiny url" thing. Take out spaces where appropriate)

     Posted by usc1 at 12/14/2007 @ 12:12am

176. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/13/2007 @ 11:14pm

     Communicating with animals is a subtle process, combining multiple facets, like sounds, body language, gestures etc.

     You are talking to USC1.

     ...nevermind.

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/14/2007 @ 12:13am

177. Well, it's been fun. good night.

     Posted by usc1 at 12/14/2007 @ 12:16am

178. Communicating with animals is a subtle process, combining multiple facets, like sounds, body language, gestures etc.

     You are talking to USC1.

     ...nevermind.

     Posted by MALCONTENT 12/14/2007 @ 12:13am

     naw, i bet we can bring out his inner doolittle.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/14/2007 @ 12:19am

179. The culture I was referring to, was that of the jim crow south, where black men weren't supposed to glance at white women. And anything that encouraged them, should be banned.

     Check the testimony sometime.

     Cultures in other countries are irrelevant to American culture, which was the topic.

     Your link is somehow not working, even with modification.

     So much has liberty has been lost (been in a roadblock lately?) over conservative white mens fears, that the answer is; yes.

     And the questions are; Are black men really better hung? And, does size really matter?

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/14/2007 @ 12:22am

180. His inner doolittle?

     LMAO!

     Are you trying to imply he is a white boy?

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/14/2007 @ 12:24am

181. FZ,

     You're fun to have around.

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/14/2007 @ 12:25am

182. You're fun to have around.

     Posted by MALCONTENT 12/14/2007 @ 12:25am

     we all are, brother.

     even you, ponti.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/14/2007 @ 01:02am

183. End the hypocritical prohibitions: decriminalize and regulate all psycho-active substances, and do the same for prostitution. Get the criminals, most especially the violent, out of the business of entertainment/pleasure.

     What sage said "you can't legislate morality"? S/he was right!!

     Posted by lewwelge at 12/14/2007 @ 08:38am

184. What sage said "you can't legislate morality"? S/he was right!!

     Posted by LEWWELGE 12/14/2007 @ 08:38am

     hopefully, one day people will be able to legislate morally instead.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/14/2007 @ 09:46am

185. USC1-A culture is not defined as people who have an interest in one thing.There has to be more than an desire to watch dogs fight in order to claim to be a culture.The ability to communicate with animals is not indicative of a mental illness and would not require therapy.In fact,therapists would consider that ability to be a sign of mental health.

     Posted by i'm nobody at 12/14/2007 @ 10:56am

186. MarkCanyon-You don't piss on anyone,but I did enjoy you talking tough while hiding behind your computer.You put much effort into sounding intelligent,but no effort into being intelligent.

     Posted by i'm nobody at 12/14/2007 @ 12:40pm

187. "Food first, then morals" - Bertholt Brecht

     I think Slick Willie (Bill Clinton) was helpful on this topic when he said at his portrait's unveiling in the Shrub White House, and I paraphrase: "we'll have a better country/political system when we focus our attention less on Good vs. Evil (morals) and more on Right and Wrong (ethics)."

     Posted by lewwelge at 12/14/2007 @ 2:11pm

188. I'm, (just for fun)

     Communicate with a dog? Not an issue.

     Having a full-blown conversation in which you ask and pretend to understand a dog's supposedly reasoned response? Issue. Biiiiig issue.

     From msn dictionary

     Culture: (deleting first three definitions for brevity)

     4. people with shared beliefs and practices: a group of people whose shared beliefs and practices identify the particular place, class, or time to which they belong

     5. shared attitudes: a particular set of attitudes that characterizes a group of people

     Posted by usc1 at 12/14/2007 @ 2:19pm

189. Posted by MARKCANYON 12/14/2007 @ 12:27pm

     you should seriously seek some help.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/14/2007 @ 2:46pm

190. Posted by USC1 12/14/2007 @ 2:19pm

     arrogant human.

     have you ever been a dog?

     how do you know what is going on in the dog's head? or a crow? or an elephant?

     you have no idea.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/14/2007 @ 2:48pm

191. USC1-People who like dog fighting only share that one interest and,as your definition shows,they would need to share more than that to be a culture.They might qualify as some kind of sub culture,but I'm not sure about that.

     Posted by i'm nobody at 12/14/2007 @ 4:05pm

192. USC1-My dogs give me reasoned responses on a regular basis so why would I doubt them this one time?

     Posted by i'm nobody at 12/14/2007 @ 4:07pm

193. USC1-My dogs give me reasoned responses on a regular basis so why would I doubt them this one time?

     Posted by I'M NOBODY 12/14/2007 @ 4:07pm

     and they would NEVER have voted for bush!

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/14/2007 @ 5:07pm

194. and they would NEVER have voted for bush!

     Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/14/2007 @ 5:07pm

     Mine likes to pee on bushes.

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/14/2007 @ 5:41pm

195. MarkCanyon-The reason you post on here is because you are a nobody.If you were a somebody you would be reaching people who care what you think and wouldn't be on here.The fact that I realize that I'm a nobody makes me someone who lives in reality.You live in a fantasy world if you think you're a somebody.Your attempt at a put down failed,again because you forgot to be intelligent and show that you live in reality.The reason I'm self watering is because I learned to properly consume liquids at an early age,but I see from your post that you are not self watering and must be given liquids by an adult.

     Posted by i'm nobody at 12/15/2007 @ 11:45am

196. Is markhimler still here?

     Poor boy must be lonely... his vitriol a sad, sad ploy for attention.

     Poor retarded markhimler. Why don't you go torture a cat or a person or something that you would find amusing and fuck off.

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/15/2007 @ 1:44pm

197. MarkCanyon-My view of self worth is based on reality and not fantasy and would,therefore,not be pathetic.I've never had any problems making or keeping friends so that one got you nowhere.I've never heard of any saying that modest people usually have a great deal to be modest about,but every religion and Spiritual belief stresses modesty as a path to enlightenment and oneness with God so I simply have higher goals than you have.Again,you tried,but failed,to put me down,but I admire you dedication to trying to put people down even though you don't succeed.Keep trying.Someday you may actually accomplish your goal.

     Posted by i'm nobody at 12/15/2007 @ 2:56pm

198. (Sorry, don't know how to do the "tiny url" thing. Take out spaces where appropriate)

     Posted by USC1 12/14/2007 @ 12:12am

     just follow the instructions. [tinyurl.com]

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/15/2007 @ 6:15pm

199. modest people usually have a great deal to be modest about.

     Posted by MARKCANYON 12/15/2007 @ 2:14pm

     and people in need of psychiatric help call themselves "markcanyon".

     seriously.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/15/2007 @ 6:22pm

200. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/15/2007 @ 6:22pm

     But, I don't call myself...nevermind.

     Posted by Malcontent at 12/15/2007 @ 8:42pm

201. Better still, team up with Frosty Zoom. Your combined grounds for modesty will practically put you in God's lap.

     Posted by MARKCANYON 12/16/2007 @ 10:02pm

     as spoken by satan's lap dancer.......................

     Posted by frosty zoom at 12/16/2007 @ 10:37pm

202. MarkCanyon-I see that you tried,but failed, to put me down,again.I never mentioned self abasement nor have I promoted self abasement.The fact that I know that I'm not a celebrity or politician or some other person that people listen to simply means that I live in reality.The fact that you believe that you are some well known person means that you live in a fantasy world.I see from your response that you know nothing about religion or Spiritualism.Is there a subject that you know something about?

     Posted by i'm nobody at 12/17/2007 @ 1:04pm