Kill Or Convert, Brought To You By the Pentagon

posted by max on 08/07/2007 @ 8:40pm

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Actor Stephen Baldwin, the youngest member of the famous Baldwin brothers, is no longer playing Pauly Shore's sidekick in comedy masterpieces like Biodome. He has a much more serious calling these days.

Baldwin became a right-wing, born-again Christian after the 9/11 attacks, and now is the star of Operation Straight Up (OSU), an evangelical entertainment troupe that actively proselytizes among active-duty members of the US military. As an official arm of the Defense Department's America Supports You program, OSU plans to mail copies of the controversial apocalyptic video game, Left Behind: Eternal Forces to soldiers serving in Iraq. OSU is also scheduled to embark on a "Military Crusade in Iraq" in the near future.

"We feel the forces of heaven have encouraged us to perform multiple crusades that will sweep through this war torn region," OSU declares on its website about its planned trip to Iraq. "We'll hold the only religious crusade of its size in the dangerous land of Iraq."

The Defense Department's Chaplain's Office, which oversees OSU's activities, has not responded to calls seeking comment.

"The constitution has been assaulted and brutalized," Mikey Weinstein, former Reagan Administration White House counsel, ex-Air Force judge advocate (JAG), and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, told me. "Thanks to the influence of extreme Christian fundamentalism, the wall separating church and state is nothing but smoke and debris. And OSU is the IED that exploded the wall separating church and state in the Pentagon and throughout our military." Weinstein continued: "The fact that they would even consider taking their crusade to a Muslim country shows the threat to our national security and to the constitution and everyone that loves it."

On the surface, OSU appears as a traditional entertainment troupe that brings cheer to American troops around the globe. Founded by champion kickboxer Jonathan Spinks, OSU performs comedy, acrobatic stunts and strongman displays. Its roster of entertainers includes a former WNBA star, the Flying Wallendas, a ventriloquist, and former boxing champ Evander Holyfield. "We make no bones about the fact that we are speaking directly to the soldiers of the greatest fighting force of in the world," OSU proclaims. "No ‘mamsie pamsie' stuff here!"

But behind OSU's anodyne promises of wholesome fun for military families, the organization promotes an apocalyptic brand of evangelical Christianity to active duty US soldiers serving in Muslim-dominated regions of the Middle East. Displayed prominently on the "What We Believe" section of OSU's website is a passage from the Book of Revelations (Revelation 19:20; 20:10-15) that has become the bedrock of the Christian right's End Times theology: "The devil and his angels, the beast and the false prophet, and whosoever is not found written in the Book of Life, shall be consigned to everlasting punishment in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

With the endorsement of the Defense Department, OSU is mailing "Freedom Packages" to soldiers serving in Iraq. These are not your grandfather's care packages, however. Besides pairs of white socks and boxes of baby wipes (included at the apparent suggestion of Iran-Contra felon Oliver North, according to OSU) OSU's care packages contain the controversial Left Behind: Eternal Forces video game. The game is inspired by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins' bestselling pulp fiction series about a blood-soaked Battle of Armageddon pitting born-again Christians against anybody who does not adhere to their particular theology. In LaHaye's and Jenkins' books, the non-believers are ultimately condemned to "everlasting punishment" while the evangelicals are "raptured" up to heaven.

The Left Behind videogame is a real-time strategy game that makes players commanders of a virtual evangelical army in a post-apocalyptic landscape that looks strikingly like New York City after 9/11. With tanks, helicopters and a fearsome arsenal of automatic weapons at their disposal, Left Behind players wage a violent war against United Nations-like peacekeepers who, according to LaHaye's interpretation of Revelation, represent the armies of the Antichrist. Each time a Left Behind player kills a UN soldier, their virtual character exclaims, "Praise the Lord!" To win the game, players must kill or convert all the non-believers left behind after the rapture. They also have the option of reversing roles and commanding the forces of the Antichrist. (Video preview here).

Producers of the Left Behind videogame were faced with a storm of controversy after Christian blogger Jonathan Hutson exposed its eliminationist overtones in a series of posts on the website Talk2Action. Statements by the Anti-Defamation League, the Conference on American Islamic Relations, the Christian Alliance for Progress, and others condemned the game and demanded that Walmart pull it from its shelves. Even Marvin Olasky, the evangelical publisher, intellectual author of "compassionate conservatism," and a force behind the George W. Bush Administration's White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives," denounced the Left Behind videogame. In a blog post on the website of his World Magazine, Olasky described the game's content as akin to "the way homicidal Muslims think." As a result of the fallout, Left Behind Games fired its senior VP and released three board members.

This controversy has not deterred OSU from encouraging US troops to play virtual rounds of kill or convert after a hard day of house-to-house searches and counterinsurgency warfare against Iraqi insurgents. What's more, OSU's "Freedom Packages" include a copy of evangelical pastor Jonathan McDowell's More Than A Carpenter -- a book advertised as "one of the most powerful evangelism tools worldwide" -- that is double-published in Arabic. Considering that only a handful of American troops speak Arabic, the book is ostensibly intended for proselytizing efforts among Iraqi civilians.

OSU has cultivated support from the Department of Defense for years. After a private October, 2005 meeting between OSU's Spinks and Defense Department officials, OSU was invited to perform inside the Pentagon. This week, Pentagon employees and active duty service members are expected to enjoy a breakfast with Spinks and Baldwin, followed by an OSU performance in which they will receive "spiritual encouragement via a Biblical message." The events will be held respectively in the Pentagon Executive Dining Room and the Pentagon Auditorium.

Spreading the Gospel to US troops is only one of many crusades Baldwin has waged in the name of the Lord. During 2006, Baldwin frequently stationed himself on the sidewalk outside a pornographic video store in New York. There, he photographed the license plates of people entering the store and threatened to publish an ad in a Nyack paper publicizing the names of those who patronized the store. "In my position, I just don't think I'm supposed to keep my faith to myself," Baldwin told a group of Texas Southern Baptists in 2004. "I'm just doing what the Lord's telling me to do."

Soon after his appearance at the Pentagon, Baldwin ships out to Iraq for OSU's "Military Crusade." With its cadre of celebrity entertainers pushing End Times theology, and the overt support of the Defense Department, OSU is hoping to transform Bush's surge into a battle of biblical proportions.

They just can't keep their faith to themselves.

Comments (208)

Max, you're reading way too much into what OSU is doing.

Posted by ACook at 08/07/2007 @ 9:08pm
Max, you're reading way too much into what OSU is doing.

Posted by ACOOK 08/07/2007 @ 9:08pm

perhaps it's not the severity he's frightened of, but the principle (you know, slippery slope style)

i wonder how much of this care package from the good lord is manufactured by infidel hands in china

you know, the other day, i, blond european, was walking down my street at night, wearing a hooded sweatshirt, unshaven as well. a muslim women saw me (she wore hijab) approaching and, with a look of fear upon her face, quickly jumped into her suv and started the motor. i continued walking but could tell she did not move her vehicle. and all the while, from far in the distance, BTO could be hearing playing:

American woman, stay away from me American women, mama let me be Don't come hangin' around my door I don't wanna see your face no more I don't need your war machine I don't need your ghetto scenes Coloured lights can hypnotize Sparkle someone else's eyes Now woman, I said stay away American woman, listen what i say...............................

buh nuh nuh nuh nuh, nuh nuh, nuh nuh, bah nah buh nuh nuh nuh nuh, nuh nuh, nuh nuh!!!!!!!!!!

(i tried to phoneticize the riff)

where are we going?

i don't think jesus (or mohammed) would be to proud of what's being done in his name peace be upon all of us

Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2007 @ 9:32pm
As noted on another thread....easy LOGICAL questions to throw at these folks-

1. Is Satan intelligent and possessed of free will?

2. Does he know the "End Times" "revelations"?

Then why will he act according what is "ordained" for him? ALL it would take is, him (through his avatar, the Anti-christ) NOT doing any one of the prophesized actions....and he would prove God (or "God's Word" via its human authors)...wrong.

"Ego!" comes the counter-response, "He thinks he can do all that and win anyway". Then Satan is stupid. By simply NOT "putting the Mark of the Beast" on the "Left Behind"...he dis-proves the "prophecies" of "God's chosen".

Doesn't mean he still can't rule the world via the United Nations or invade Israel or whatever other idiocies Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye have concocted in the last 35 years.

But...by NOT doing that one thing (Mark of the Beast, whatever you like)....he proves God wrong. A victory MUCH more important than defeating the last of the "Left Behind" saints (portrayed by Kirk Cameron and friends).

(And that is why this stuff has no permanent basis...it is contradiction at its "soul")

Posted by Mask at 08/07/2007 @ 10:25pm
Posted by MASK 08/07/2007 @ 10:25pm

I'm not an end-times Christian, but I'll field your question.

Satan is the Adversary because he would be God. Proving God wrong, ruling the world - these thing don't make Satan God. So there is a huge gaping hole in your argument that stems around your ideas about Satan's motivations and the importance of proving God wrong - even assuming the theological framework of end-times Christianity. And we are never more like Satan than when we pretend to know the mind of God - or the Adversary.

Rather than be less, Car'd not to be at all. - Paradise Lost. Book ii. Line 47.

Posted by srjenkins at 08/07/2007 @ 10:56pm
"..you know, the other day, i, blond european, was walking down my street at night, wearing a hooded sweatshirt, unshaven as well. a muslim women saw me (she wore hijab) approaching and, with a look of fear upon her face, quickly jumped into her suv and started the motor. i continued walking but could tell she did not move her vehicle. and all the while, from far in the distance, BTO could be hearing playing:"

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 08/07/2007 @ 9:32pm

Frosty, welcome to the world of propraganda. You've just put yourself in the shoes of a young black man living in America. Let's change the script, shall we?

"..you know, the other day, i, an african american man, was walking down my street at night, wearing a hooded sweatshirt, unshaven as well. A white women saw me (she was wearing a large diamond ring) approaching and, with a look of fear upon her face and clutching her Kate Spade handbag, quickly jumped into her Mercedes SUV and started the motor. I continued walking but could tell she did not move her vehicle, and all the while, from far in the distance, I could see police cruisers patroling the streets."

Posted by ACook at 08/07/2007 @ 11:15pm
Posted by ACOOK 08/07/2007 @ 11:15pm

well, i guess we've come a long way then. now everybody is afraid of everybody (¿equal opportunity fear?)

Posted by frosty zoom at 08/07/2007 @ 11:43pm
"BTO could be hearing playing . . ."

sorry to quibble, but "American Woman" was originally by The Guess Who. I don't recall a BTO cover version.

And could those who defend the close relationship between the Pentagon and OSU, and accuse Max of misinterpretation and fear mongering, please explain why the relationship IS okay--what with separation of church and state and all (would you be okay with an Islamic organization mailing video games to all the soldiers with an objective of killing or converting all the infidels (christians)?)?

Posted by Rintrah at 08/08/2007 @ 04:33am
"BTO could be hearing playing . . ."

sorry to quibble, but "American Woman" was originally by The Guess Who. I don't recall a BTO cover version.

And could those who defend the close relationship between the Pentagon and OSU, and accuse Max of misinterpretation and fear mongering, please explain why the relationship IS okay--what with separation of church and state and all (would you be okay with an Islamic organization mailing video games to all the soldiers with an objective of killing or converting all the infidels (christians)?)?

Posted by RINTRAH 08/08/2007 @ 04:33am

Rin Tin Tin

You are correct - The Guess Who did the original, Lenny Kravitz a cover (when Spy Who Shagged Me was in theaters), BTO never to my knowledge.

Your points about the DOD-OSU are well taken; the larger question in my mind is why ostensibly 'christian' groups would attach their names to such a video game and what message it is they are trying to send in doing so.

The eschatologists (those who study 'end times') are by and large difficult for me to understand, but this stuff is really well beyond the usual limits for such types. The implicit message of putting this crap in the hands of soldiers - those charged with fighting America's wars - seems to be that these are the end times, you'd better get your own shit together, America/ns is/are the good folk and our enemies are the evil heathens that God has deemed acceptable to slaughter.

Pretty scary stuff, even for these types.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 08:16am
Posted by SRJENKINS 08/07/2007 @ 10:56pm

Sorry, SRU....doesn't make sense. Why try to assume an Enemy's position, without trying to show (to the Enemy's friends, as well as well as Himself) that he is NOT "infallible"?

By NOT doing one of the prophesized actions (like a robot pre-programmed thousands of years earlier), Satan can show that God is FLAWED, and by definition, "not God". This would be a much greater victory than trying to create a "Kingdom on Earth" with ol' Lucifer as head.

Plus "prophecy" by its very nature defies "free will". The Calvinists resolve this by accepting predestination, but in payment, create a God that created billions of souls with the predetermined intention of sending them to Hell.

If Satan's actions in "the End Times" are immutable and unchangeable, then he is...a robot, for that means that his free will is negated and he has no choice but to act in a certain manner....and since it is God that determined (and passed on to his "stenographers") what that manner was to be....logically, God would be ordering Satan to act in an evil manner, and therefore guilty by association.

Which again collapses the definition of "God" as "all good".

(BTW, I realize you're just playing....Devil's advocate on this...heheh)

Posted by Mask at 08/08/2007 @ 08:58am
Posted by RIO BRAVO 08/08/2007 @ 12:16am

RIO, I am willing to accept that your view of eschatology is correct. And suppose that I'll get the Eternal Hotfoot for it.

YOU on the other hand are NOT willing to accept that it may be false.

So....who has the "closed mind"?

Posted by Mask at 08/08/2007 @ 09:01am
I guess this belongs here:

Well, MASK its a good thing that we have learned to mesh our secular lives with our faith. -CHIP THORTON

Really?

Friday 03 August 2007

A report released publicly on Thursday by the Defense Department's (DOD) inspector general has found high-ranking Army and Air Force personnel violated long-standing military regulations when they participated in a promotional video for an evangelical Christian organization while in uniform and on active duty.

The report recommended Air Force Maj. Gen. Jack Catton, Army Brig. Gen. Bob Caslen, Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks, Maj. Gen. Peter Sutton, and a colonel and lieutenant colonel whose names were redacted in the inspector general's report, "improperly endorsed and participated with a non-Federal entity while in uniform" and the men should be disciplined for misconduct. Caslen was formerly the deputy director for political-military affairs for the war on terrorism, directorate for strategic plans and policy, joint staff. He now oversees the cadets at the Military Academy at West Point. Caslen told DOD investigators he agreed to appear in the video upon learning other senior Pentagon officials had been interviewed for the promotional video.

The 47-page report was also highly critical of Pentagon Chaplain Col. Ralph G. Benson, whom the inspector general's report accused of knowingly misleading the DOD when he requested permission from DOD officials to film a video inside the Pentagon claiming he was interested in gathering information about the Pentagon's "own ministry." In fact, the report says, Benson was determined to use the video to "attract new supporters" to the Christian Embassy, an evangelical organization that evangelizes members of the military and politicians in Washington, DC via daily Bible studies and outreach events. The group holds prayer breakfasts on Wednesdays in the Pentagons executive dining room, according to the organization's web site. Bill Bright, the founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, founded the Christian Embassy 30 years ago.

...The Army generals who appeared in the video appeared to be speaking on behalf of the military, but they did not obtain prior permission to appear in the video. They defended their actions, according to the inspector general's report, saying the "Christian Embassy had become a 'quasi-Federal entity', since the DOD had endorsed the organization to General Officers for over 25 years."

Posted by CRABWALK 08/08/2007 @ 08:55am | ignore this person

The former White House attorney under Ronald Reagan, and the author of the book "With God On Our Side: One Man's War Against an Evangelical Coup in America's Military", said he is still "dissecting" the inspector general's report, but "clearly this is a gigantic victory for our foundation."

"The report confirms the total destruction of the Constitutionally-mandated wall separating supernatural and natural, metaphysical and physical, spiritual and temporal, church and state at the highest levels of the technologically most lethal organization ever created by humankind; our honorable and noble United States military," Weinstein said in an interview. "The embarrassingly pedestrian excuses feebly offered by senior US Army and US Air Force generals and other senior officers are pathetic and not worthy of those that might have been offered by a first-grader. The fact that these senior Pentagon officials control our country's nuclear arsenal should shake the very foundation of the American public's trust in our country's current leadership."

"The rise of evangelical Christianity inside the military went on steroids after 9/11 under this administration and this White House," Weinstein said in an interview. "This administration has turned the entire Department of Defense into its own personal faith-based initiative. "

Posted by CRABWALK 08/08/2007 @ 08:57am

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 09:06am
I thought the Baldwins were part of the evil leftist America haters?

RIO has an open mind, he believes colored flying horseys will show up and reap vengeance upon the evil left. But he doesn't believe in unicorns. Should we teach our children about unicorns and how King Arthur will return to save us all?

If not, why not?

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 09:09am
If one is playing Rev Doomsdays game, and only wounds a non-beleiver, do they become Unitarians?

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 09:11am
Kill Or Convert, Brought To You By the Pentagon Max Blumenthal

Intresting how mad Max is so adept at material misrepresentation and hate mongering with such a self righteous air about his manufactored work! He shall know the truth, but it will be to late to set him free!

Posted by RIO BRAVO 08/08/2007 @ 12:37am RIO, Max isn't that far off the mark. I remember my basic training days in the Air Force. You could get Sunday mornings away from the drill instructor if you went to a Sunday morning service, otherwise, you were to remain in the military barricks and work. Now, that is pretty much arm twisting soldiers to go to church services.

I actually wised up and realized that if a good portion of us remained in the barricks and worked on Sundays to get the barricks ready, we would pass the Monday inspections with flying colors, but getting some of my fellow Airmen to see this also took some doing, but eventually most of us stayed behind and worked on the barricks and didn't fall into the Air Force's religious arm twisting game. If you doubt me, check out what goes on at the Air Force academy. There are complaints all of the time about religion being shoved down cadets' throats.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/08/2007 @ 09:36am
Earlier at 9:00am two black workers of the crew had knocked on my door knowing me to be one of the town insurance professionals asking and recieving water for their asphalt roller equipment and we enjoyed friendly conversation. Funny how such life experiences can bias us or reveal the bias of others.

Posted by RIO BRAVO 08/08/2007 @ 12:33am

Does anyone else find it ironic that an individual who seems to be an end times christian would sell insurance?

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 09:38am
Plus "prophecy" by its very nature defies "free will". The Calvinists resolve this by accepting predestination, but in payment create a God that created billions of souls with the predetermined intention of sending them to Hell.

Posted by MASK 08/08/2007 @ 08:58am

While the Calvinists may accept predetermination, that doesn't mean that they're not full of shit.

The only responsible thing that a just and loving, truly forgiving and omnipotent God would dispense is universal salvation.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 09:41am
Even Scratch would get in.

Eventually.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 09:42am
You are correct - The Guess Who did the original, Lenny Kravitz a cover (when Spy Who Shagged Me was in theaters), BTO never to my knowledge. Posted by SKELETONMAN 08/08/2007 @ 08:16am

The Guess Who made the song American Woman in the early 70's waaay before The Spy Who Shagged Me was produced.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/08/2007 @ 09:42am
The Guess Who made the song American Woman in the early 70's waaay before The Spy Who Shagged Me was produced.

Posted by WOLFGANG1 08/08/2007 @ 09:42am |

And it was a much better version than Lenny's (except for the way Lenny went 'uuunnnnhhhh,' which sort of gave you an idea of what he had on his mind).

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 09:49am
I would still like to see RIO and pals list the differences between them and the Taliban. I bet it is a short list.

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 09:55am
By Josh White Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, June 23, 2005; Page A02

A military study of the religious climate at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs found several examples of religious intolerance, insensitivity and inappropriate proselytizing on the part of Air Force officers and cadets, but a report issued yesterday at the Pentagon concluded that the school is not overtly discriminatory and has made improvements in recent months.

Air Force Lt. Gen. Roger A. Brady announced that his 16-member review team found a "perception of religious bias" in more than 300 interviews with cadets representing all faiths and with faculty members and administrators. Brady also found that there was a failure at the academy "to fully accommodate all members' needs and a lack of awareness over where the line is drawn between permissible and impermissible expression of beliefs."

He said some personnel were concerned about the impact of religious affiliation on their careers and some cadets expressed objections to what they perceived to be mandatory prayers at official functions and in locker rooms.

"Additionally, some faculty members and coaches consider it their duty to profess their faith and discuss this issue in their classrooms in furtherance of developing cadets' spirituality," according to the 40-page document.

The report came after allegations that officers at the academy promoted evangelical Christian beliefs and were insensitive to cadets who were of a different religion or chose not to practice a faith. The allegations spurred a heated debate about the separation of church and state at the federally funded military school and caused a backlash among the chaplain community there.

Brady's study found glaring examples of that insensitivity and recommended that seven specific incidents be investigated further. He said his group, which visited the academy over four days in early May, was there to "take the pulse" of the religious climate, not to investigate wrongdoing.

Examples of questionable behavior highlighted in the report included the school's head football coach hanging a "Team Jesus" banner in the locker room in November 2004; the academy's commandant sending out a schoolwide message on the National Day of Prayer and encouraging cadets to use the "J for Jesus" hand signal; and senior school personnel signing on to a Christian advertisement citing scripture in the base newspaper.

Also detailed in the report was an incident in February 2004, when cadets reported their peers had placed fliers on the more than 4,000 place settings at the cadet dining facility and in other common areas promoting the film "The Passion of the Christ."

"Cadets felt they were being proselytized and pressured to see the movie," the report said. "Jewish cadets told the team they encountered anti-Semitic comments that they believe 'The Passion of The Christ' flyer event inspired."

Cadets also reported being harassed for not taking part in voluntary prayer meetings during basic training and being labeled as instead taking part in the "Heathen Flight" back to dorms for time to relax.

The concerns about religious intolerance arose during earlier investigations of complaints that sexual harassment was common on the campus but were ignored by school administrators. The teams studying the academy heard stories of favoritism toward evangelical cadets and faculty members and allegations of discrimination against others.

Gen Boykin (of Waco fame), cadets waving the "J" for Jesus, RIO etc = American Jihadism.

Do ya'll know what we need in this world? More religion, more ties between religion and armed forces and more weapons in the Middle East. Sounds like a good plan to me.

Lets call it "The roadmap to peace". The old "roadmap" is collecting dust anyway.

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 10:00am
I would still like to see RIO and pals list the differences between them and the Taliban. I bet it is a short list.

Posted by CRABWALK 08/08/2007 @ 09:55am

Crabster

You and I would probably think so, but I doubt that Arby and chums would, the greatest difference being that Arby et al believe in the right iteration of God and the Taliban do not.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 10:00am
Does anyone else find it ironic that an individual who seems to be an end times christian would sell insurance?

Posted by SKELETONMAN

Good point. I'll take this in a different direction though. Insurance salesmen make their living off of scaring people into purchasing insurance to avoid future mishaps. I would call it purchasing a false sense of security. Any doubts about that, look at what happened to the folks with insurance after the Katrina debacle.

So, like Bush, RIO likes to scare the crap out of people with the hell and brimstone story. Unless you follow his version of the bible and do things his (Gods) way, you are destined to become a grilled cheese sandwich for eternity. With Bush, it's Al Qaeda is coming to get you and then when Al Qaeda gets you, you will get to be the grilled cheese sandwich for not believing in his religion, so it's a double whamy with W.

Fear mongering is the cornestone of most insurance policies as it is also the cornestone for most advertising we see these days. If you don't purhcase this product, you aren't cool, don't fit in, smell bad, look bad, will die... the list goes on and on.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/08/2007 @ 10:01am
Does anyone else find it ironic that an individual who seems to be an end times christian would sell insurance?

Posted by SKELETONMAN 08/08/2007 @ 09:38am

Rich, creamy, frankincense scented irony. Thanks for pointing that out.

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 10:02am
I wonder why this stuff is happening most primarily at the Air Force Academy; do you suppose that as primarily a flying force, the Zoomies are inherently closer to God?

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 10:04am
Shit, used 'primarily' twice in the same post. What a fuck I am.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 10:06am
Posted by CRABWALK 08/08/2007 @ 10:02am

How is Grammie Crab? You'd mentioned a bit ago she wasn't well.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 10:08am
iteration |?it??r? sh ?n|

a new version of a piece of computer hardware or software.

New Testament? 14th version of an Aramaic translation into Greek, then Hebrew, then Olde English then American? Or vice versa.

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 10:08am
Posted by SKELETONMAN 08/08/2007 @ 10:08am

'Fraid we had to pull the plug on the "ol girl, seems MASK and USC1 were unwilling to pay to keep her around till the flying horseys show up. Might catch her in Hell, she being a Catholic, me being an atheist.

Sure do miss her strudel! good stuff. Till she mixed up the sugar and the salt. Dan Quayle was right, it is a terrible thing to waste ones mind.

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 10:11am
Fear mongering is the cornestone of most insurance policies as it is also the cornestone for most advertising we see these days. If you don't purhcase this product, you aren't cool, don't fit in, smell bad, look bad, will die... the list goes on and on.

Posted by WOLFGANG1 08/08/2007 @ 10:01am

You are right, of course. So much for 'no fear but fear itself.'

We're a bunch of wusses now. Everytime I work I see it - I've got people coming in to the ER with cold symptoms that they've had for sometimes as long as a whole hour (you can't make this up) thinking that they're on death's door. Most of 'em need a dope slap more than they need me.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 10:12am
Posted by CRABWALK 08/08/2007 @ 10:11am

Sorry to hear that, man. If her grandchild is any indicator, she would have been quite a character.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 10:13am
Might catch her in Hell...

Posted by CRABWALK 08/08/2007 @ 10:11am

Naw. I am convinced of universal salvation. Everyone gets in. I might be the last one through the Pearly Gates, but we all get home.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 10:16am
She was!

The Moose Lodge has not been the same since.

Interesting set of grandparents I had. One was a Methodist minister/wife combo. Teetotalers. He packed a pistol under his robes while preaching peace. The other hard drinkin' Catholics.

all German. Thats where I got my soapbox.

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 10:20am
wonder why this stuff is happening most primarily at the Air Force Academy; do you suppose that as primarily a flying force, the Zoomies are inherently closer to God?

Posted by SKELETONMAN 08/08/2007

Naw, it's just that in Colorado, they have that heavenly Coors beer corporation to thme the ways they need to believe.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/08/2007 @ 10:24am
Posted by SKELETONMAN 08/08/2007 @ 09:41am

Well, you might go down the Larry Niven/Jerry Pournelle "Inferno" route....by which people DO go to Hell (in their book, identical to Dante's), but that it is not "infinite sadism") but they remain there only for as long as they need to be, until receiving the "illumination" they need to move on (in that case, to Purgatory).

Posted by Mask at 08/08/2007 @ 10:28am
Posted by WOLFGANG1 08/08/2007 @ 10:24am

Didn't Pete Coors sponsor the Gay Games (or some other event advancing the dreaded 'homosex-u-al agenda') a few years ago?

It's hard to keep the hypocracy straight.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 10:28am
No pun intended.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 10:28am
Although some say that there is no such thing as an unintended pun.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 10:29am
Posted by MASK 08/08/2007 @ 10:28am

See my post regarding Calvinism.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 10:30am
"All religion makes me want to throw up. All religion makes me sick. All religion makes me want to throw up. All religion sucks."

--The Dead Kennedys.

I like how Baldwin is so against porn but condones violent video games.

Posted by MATTMAN at 08/08/2007 @ 11:11am
(Among other interesting little titbits in this piece)

Posted by MATTMAN at 08/08/2007 @ 11:18am
Didn't Pete Coors sponsor the Gay Games (or some other event advancing the dreaded 'homosex-u-al agenda') a few years ago?

It's hard to keep the hypocracy straight.

Posted by SKELETONMAN 08/08/2007

Skeletonman, I don't know anything about Coors sponsoring a gay event. It wouldn't surprise me to see Coors do that though. This guy is a businessman first, and gay people drink beer so he wants to sell as much of his product as possible.

People like Coors back the right wing agenda as long as it is profitable for them. If backing the dems and supporting a secular government would make them wealthier, they'd go that route. I don't think most of these business men are religious fanatics, they just know how to play people who are religious fanatics to their advantage as does Karl Rove. That's why W is in the Whitehouse.

I still maintain that Rove, Cheney and Bush have to just laught their asses off at the stuff they pull off and their loyal followers believe it. It's probably like a game to them by now. I can see it now, after September, let's see if we can convince the American public that the reason we haven't achieved any of the benchmarks set forth in Iraq is because the democrats waffled too long on money approval and also that the FISA court was hindering our war capabilities in Iraq. Ya, that's a good one. Ha Ha Ha

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/08/2007 @ 11:35am
CRAB: Sorry to hear about your gram. She sounded like a most extraordinary person. Don't worry about where she winds up; Catholicism is strong medicine for the soul as long as you don't take the Pope and his semi-monthly faux pas too seriously. Oh, yeah, still need to get rid of the creepy kiddie diddlers in the priesthood. (And other than that, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?)

Posted by The Goods at 08/08/2007 @ 11:44am
Colo Springs is one of the bases for American Taliban. Dobson has his operation, Focus on the Family, based there.

FOF supports student-led prayer in public schools, although it points out that it doesn't support teacher-led prayer for fear that a teacher would encourage Christian students "to pray to Allah, Buddha or the goddess Sophia against the wishes of the parents and/or students." ("Religion in Public Schools," February 1998.)

FOF works against "special rights" for homosexuals and hate crime legislation, and supports "reparative therapy" for homosexuality, which has been widely discredited and rejected by the vast majority of doctors and physicians. FOF sponsors "Love Won Out," conferences held around the U.S. that claim to prove that "homosexuality is preventable and treatable," where many of the speakers are "ex-gays."

For those ex-gays who cannot change, FOF considers sexual celibacy another option. FOF regularly asserts the idea that there is a "homosexual agenda" and associates homosexuals with pedophilia and recruitment of children as sex partners.

There is a very strong contingent of fundies in Colo Springs, combined with a military economic base. Dangerous combination.

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 11:47am
Catholicism is strong medicine for the soul as long as you don't take the Pope and his semi-monthly faux pas too seriously.

wouldn't that make it Protestantism?

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 11:53am
By PAUL ASAY and DAVE PHILIPPS THE GAZETTE Colorado Springs has been called an evangelical mecca, the Vatican of the Religious Right, a New Jerusalem. And it didn't get that way by accident.

God chose this city, the Rev. Ted Haggard said. He said he saw it all in a vision 22 years ago: The city would grow from an unremarkable Western town into a fountain of devotion splashing Christian thought around the world.

One by one, the pieces of his vision fell into place. His church, which started in an unfinished basement, grew to become the largest in the state. Prominent radio personality James Dobson brought Focus on the Family to the city. A landslide of Christian nonprofits followed. Colorado Springs was home to two of the most powerful evangelicals in the country.

Haggard was a presidential adviser and political power broker. This summer, he sat in his book-lined office at New Life Church, smiled and said: "It's happened. My whole vision has happened."

In 1984, a nobody pastor named Ted Haggard had what he described as a vision after three days of fasting and praying on the side of Pikes Peak.

Colorado Springs was already a conservative town. But its political coloration was dictated by its large contingent of active and retired military, not its churches.

Haggard saw a city transformed: There was "a huge, lifegiving church" on a hill. Christian organizations poured into the city like crazy, creating "a fountain with young people coming in, having positive spiritual experiences, and going to the darkest places in the world."

Part of his teachings focused on Colorado Springs being a chosen place that needed to be claimed for the Lord. The New Lifers walked the sidewalks, praying and blessing, block by block, business by business, all over the city.

One evening in the mid-1980s, Haggard found a handful of congregants praying over a 5-gallon bucket of cooking oil. They said God had told them to anoint the city, and so they did, block by block -- using a garden sprayer.

"It's a little unusual," Haggard wrote of the oil in his book "Primary Purpose," "but so is Colorado Springs."

And, according to him, it worked.

"We walked the city," Haggard said. "We walked it day and night. We prayed over the businesses, we prayed over the government.

http://www2.gazette.com/display.php?id=1328281&secid=14

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 11:57am
And cheap, gay, male hookers with meth were readily available.

But, he is feeling much better now.

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 11:59am
Sort of hypocritical of Stephen Baldwin to stand in front of porn shops trying to bust people-- as I recall, Bitter Harvest was pretty racy. . .

Posted by habiba at 08/08/2007 @ 12:10pm
BTW, wasn't me or USC1 that wanted to cut Granny CRAB off....

It's all part of CRABWALK's idealistic vision of what the inevitable Universal Health Care from the Fed is going to be like...

BLOG | Posted 03/24/2007 @ 8:54pm Edwards Stands Out On Health Care Debate Marc Cooper

NATION STAFF: how about a story on wether or not Oregons system is working? This trial ranks procedures by efficacy and cost/benefit. It leads to.. (gasp) rationing, which is what we need in some form. Paying out hundreds of thousands to keep Grandma alive for a few more weeks is not a sustainable system.----Posted by CRABWALK 03/25/2007 @ 05:09am

Posted by Mask at 08/08/2007 @ 12:27pm
Those Baldwin boys are a hoot.

Posted by drhammer at 08/08/2007 @ 12:29pm
I just read an ad for the book of Mormon on this very site. Still, it makes more sense than Pentagon support of a half-cocked evangelical Christian group trying to "crusade" in Iraq. Maybe the accuracy of the article is questionable, but the overall perception-this Pentagon supports Evangelical Christianity at a time where thousands of American soldiers are dying during religious factional violence- is very real. This administration and their cronies throughout Washington have done more to hurt or embarrass true Christianity than any Muslim or non-believer could ever accomplish. I appreciate everyone's right or need for religion, but I puke on all who find it necessary to force your beliefs on others. To then kill, or even simulate killing via videos or books, in the name of a "loving god" is beyond disgusting- and as far as my god and myself are concerned, they can all go to "hell".

Posted by phillymark at 08/08/2007 @ 12:37pm
"I would still like to see RIO and pals list the differences between them and the Taliban. I bet it is a short list.

Posted by CRABWALK 08/08/2007 @ 09:55am '

It is not for Rio and others to prove to you they are not Taliban, but rather you should try to read about the Taliban and read the Bible yourself and come up with your own analysis.

Posted by john maasch at 08/08/2007 @ 12:44pm
But seriously, folks, as the depth of the wingnut contamination continues to be exposed, it only underscores the risk inherent in that old "Relax, they'll be gone soon." mantra.

Rust never sleeps.

Posted by drhammer at 08/08/2007 @ 12:44pm
Rust never sleeps.

Posted by DRHAMMER 08/08/2007 @ 12:44pm

Not only that, but

Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 12:48pm
Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep.

Posted by SKELETONMAN 08/08/2007

Buffalo Springfield?

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/08/2007 @ 12:56pm
I think supporting our troops in their faith is a great idea! Just look at the advantages. Those poor schmoes that got incinerated last week when we called in that airstrike, they were probably bound for hell anyway. And when Johnny's legs get turned into hamburger by that nifty shaped-charge IED that the humvee ran over, it's good to know that God has a plan for our lives even though we might not understand it right now. And no matter how much we may suffer in this life, the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross was so very much greater. Onward, Christian soldiers!

Posted by MyParadigm at 08/08/2007 @ 1:01pm
think I'll pack it in and buy a pick-up

Posted by phillymark at 08/08/2007 @ 1:02pm
I'm looking up today on my calendar of obscure holidays, and in fact it is Canadian Musician Appreciation Day. Well done, fellows. Pave paradise, and put up a parking lot, shall we?

Posted by MyParadigm at 08/08/2007 @ 1:05pm
Posted by RINTRAH 08/08/2007 @ 04:33am

guess who!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

oops

Posted by frosty zoom at 08/08/2007 @ 1:29pm
i'm a canadian musician

it's my day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (i hope the rapture can wait one more day)

Posted by frosty zoom at 08/08/2007 @ 1:35pm
End times prophesy is illogical.The bad guys read the script.They know better than to get anything going unless they are just following a script that has no meaning to them in the same way an actor follows a script.It all sounds too Hollywood for me to buy into.It is odd,too that this god never warned anyone about this critter Satan.He doesn't exist in the original version of the old testament called the Tanach except in the book of Job,but the book of Job isn't supposed to be taken literally.In Job Satan is anyone who oppresses the Jews and not a critter named Satan.The critter Satan appears to have been invented by the first Christians who took the Greek god Hades and changed his name to Satan in order to have a boogie man to scare people with.Prior to that satan was just a Hebrew word that meant adversary and that word could apply to anyone including the god of the OT.

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/08/2007 @ 1:39pm
Posted by MASK 08/07/2007 @ 10:25pm

SATAN IS A POWER FREAK MUCH LIKE BUSH/CHENEY...

And Armageddon is actually a small city in Iraq....

After you finish "The Book of Revelation," (KJV only, please), read John Milton's great epic "Paradise Lost" for an insight into Satan's political motivation. Basically, Satan rebelled (pre-Eden) against God because he envied God's power and thought he could, well, replace Him and do a better job.

Added note: The Antichrist was actually Hitler. Dwight Eisenhower was the Archangle Michael. It's over folks, we're now enjoying the Reign of a Thousand Years of Peace (yeah, right!) Because -- get this -- EVERYBODY was left behind.

Jesus is coming, and boy, is He pissed.

Posted by w_m_bear at 08/08/2007 @ 1:48pm
ACOOK, don't be silly. Do your homework. Max isn't exaggerating anything. For more about born-again killer christians in the Pentagon, watch this Christian Embassy promo video, funded, in part, by your tax dollars:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/080307A.shtml

Posted by PunkyAmerica at 08/08/2007 @ 2:06pm
Posted by W_M_BEAR 08/08/2007 @ 1:48pm

Well, BEAR....that makes JUST AS MUCH sense as the Tim LeHaye stuff.

heheh

Posted by Mask at 08/08/2007 @ 2:15pm
The Gospels show that the critter Satan couldn't even tempt Jesus or be more powerful than Jesus so where would he get the idea that he defeat God?The whole satan thing makes no sense and never has.Of course,it wasn't really a critter named satan that tempted Jesus.Satan did not have the power to give Jesus the Earth for his kingdom.Jesus had the power to make Earth his kingdom and the adversary(satan) Jesus spoke of was himself.It was the age old question of what should powerful people do with their power?Use it to advance humanity or use it to advance themselves?

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/08/2007 @ 2:19pm
This is call self-fulfilling prophesy. Who can say what a cryptic book like Revelations really means? The New Testament was changed by the Catholic Cardinals centuries ago. They abolished the Gnostic gospels and anything else that threatened their money making, power grabbing plans. Just read Elaine Pagel's works on this matter. More important - these religious fanatics should read Gary Ellis's "What Jesus Meant" to really understand what their real mission should be instead of bringing us closer to destruction. How can any sane person justify the killing and maiming of others just because they don't worship the same way they do? Isn't this what we are accusing the so called Islamic fanatics of? And to use 911 as a justification when any logical thinking person who has done any real research on this matter will come to no other conclusion that it was an inside job perpertrated by the same people these nut cases are looking up to. What an insane world we live in. God help the inocent children who didn't ask to brought into this sick world. And shouldn't we be trying to make it a better place for them instead of destroying it even further? God bless America and God Bless the Children.

Posted by logic612 at 08/08/2007 @ 2:50pm
There are so many laughable moments to this piece that it would be funny were not the Zionists so very dangerous. (Both Judeo-"X"tian and Jew -- I will not call Judeo-Xtians Christians as they are the antithesis of Christ. They are IN FACT in league with the anti-Christ)

1. The Judeo-Xtians interpretation of Revelation is so far off kilter that they should just stay at home and watch the Jew-tube. They'd be far less dangerous to the rest of us and they'd be less likely to waste their time and money.

2. It is not surprising that an Edmoite Jew (Weinstein) would be all farklempt at the extremist Xtian right's attempts to spread their Satanic message worldwide, via government and taxpayer's expense. But then what's new. They hate Christ and Christianity or any attempt, no matter how lame thereof. (And Judeo-Xtians are certainly lame.) The Edomite Jews after all, HATE Christ with a passion -- no pun intended.

The Zionist loons are running the nation both Edomite Jew and Judeo-Xtian. Both are terrorists.

Saying that one is a Judeo-Christian is like saying they are an Anti-Christ follower of Christ. Yet, they are so very stupid that they cannot even see it. They have fulfilled one part of the Revelation prophesy though. They have fallen for the GREAT delusion.

Posted by James1958 at 08/08/2007 @ 3:13pm
Posted by JAMES1958 08/08/2007 @ 3:13pm

Curious JAMES, what is the label/definition of YOUR religious belief?

Posted by Mask at 08/08/2007 @ 3:23pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1

I am a Christian. I do not follow the traditions of mere men, like Hagee and Robertson, who wouldn't know Yahshua heMessiach if He stood before them. In fact, I believe they are so full of themselves, they'd try to crucify Him again rather than relinquish their control over the minds of the masses they have deceived.

PS: Evangelicals DO NOT practice early Christian beliefs, but then they never bother to study to even find out what they practiced.

I have to go to work now, so all you warmongers and Bush supporters have a fun time. I'll be back later. Anyone truly interested in what true Christianity is, instead of that "dress up and go play church to feel good about yourselves" Churchianity, I will address. Otherwise, you may as well talk amongst yourselves.

Oh and don't forget to give and give and give. Your leaders need more and more and more. Gotta keep those private jets, limos, and expensive lifestyles of the rich and infamous going.

Posted by James1958 at 08/08/2007 @ 3:38pm
LVLIBERTY1

What a perfect rendering of the overall hatred of Christians and Orthodox Jews expressed in this thread. ___________________________________________

Are you deliberately deceptive or is it part of your indoctrination so deeply ingrained that you cannot see it?

I do not hate Christians. But the JUDEO-Xtians are NOT Christians. You probably don't see it that way. You probably think Yahshua will rapture you away while everyone else gets to take the heat.

That's not the way it works. Its a thoroughly selfish and unChristian way of looking at life though. It is not scriptural.

Posted by James1958 at 08/08/2007 @ 3:47pm
LvLiberty-I'm a believer in God and don't need a human preacher to tell me what's up on a Sunday morning.I study up and meditate on the subject on a daily basis.The human preacher might not have any idea what he's talking about or God may not like the preacher so it's best to avoid churches,mosques,synagogues,etc. if you're seeking truth.People practiced Christianity in a variety of ways in the first two centuries.Since the discovery of the gnostic gospels and the gleaning of new information from the Vatican archives it's now known that Christianity was practiced in an even wider variety of ways than previously known about.Messianic Jews believe that they were the originals.No one knows,of course,exactly how it was practiced since the churches were spread out and not united at first and had numerous different practices.

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/08/2007 @ 4:14pm
Similar sentiments for IMnobody and Skeletonman.

Posted by LVLIBERTY1 08/08/2007 @ 3:29pm

How do you get idolotry - self or otherwise - out of universal salvation? Because I give God more credit than you do?

Think on this, O Paulian CHINO (CHristian In Name Only) that you are - what is the nature of a truly 'perfect sacrifice' ?

It would be given to all, no strings attached, no preconditions, no fine print. That's what is really meant when someone says 'Jesus died for us all.' Every last soul, ever. Even a self idolator like me (and yes, Luvvy, I will step aside so you can enter first).

If you must read that rubbish by Paul, the great corruptor of the Christ, at least read it with a critical eye. Maybe you will learn something.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/08/2007 @ 4:27pm
Posted by MASK 08/08/2007 @ 08:58am

I'll make a prophesy. I prophesy that you will post again to this forum. Does this take away your free will if you choose respond to this post or another? Knowledge that something will happen doesn't impact someone's choice to do it.

I don't find theology particularly interesting. It is an attempt to describe something that can only be experienced. It's like explaining the color red to someone who has never been able to see. There is no proof. There is no way to explain red.

The requirements are simple:

You have to have eyes. You have to have them open. You have to be looking for "red".

In the end, it's no much more difficult to see God than it is to see "red". The only additional requirement is perhaps faith as big as a mustard seed.

Posted by srjenkins at 08/08/2007 @ 4:38pm
Buffalo Springfield?

Posted by WOLFGANG1 08/08/2007 @ 12:56pm | ignore this person

yes. written by Setphen Stills

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/08/2007 @ 4:57pm
It's a guerilla war, a conflict in which the occupier must "win the hearts and minds" of the natives, and what does the US do? Our government chooses to export Christianity to Muslims! That's like throwing gasoline on the fire.

Posted by mtspence05 at 08/08/2007 @ 5:00pm
Stephen Stills.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/08/2007 @ 5:04pm
Forced conversions, yet another infringement on our rights by the gov't. Add it to the ever-growing list of violations: They violate the 1st Amendment by opening mail, caging demonstrators and banning books like "America Deceived" from Amazon. They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina. They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps. They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus. They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing. They violate the entire Constitution by starting 2 illegal wars based on lies and on behalf of a foriegn gov't. Support Dr. Ron Paul and end this madness. Last link (unless Google Books caves to the gov't and drops the title): http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0

Posted by Reader11722 at 08/08/2007 @ 5:12pm
Posted by RINTRAH 08/08/2007 @ 04:33am

BTO did in fact do a cover of American Woman, which was released by RCA in 1970. A quick google search wold have told you that.

Posted by Burnsey at 08/08/2007 @ 5:45pm
As to some like Wolfgang, it is readily apparent you would have been much better off attending Sunday services. Perhaps God could have penetrated your heart and delivered you from your self-idolatry. Similar sentiments for IMnobody and Skeletonman.

Alright Liver head, You've done it again. So you think that this Baldwin fellow is fine for giving people a hard time for going into a porn shop? What if the people going into the porn shop are a married couple...got problems with that? I suppose folks like you and Baldwin should be in everyone's bedroom making sure everyone is using the missionary position.

Who the hell do you think you are? Do you really think you belong on some moral high ground because you thump a friggin bible? I spent enough time in Sunday school class and church services to understand what chumps people like you are making of yourselves. Take the words of the bible, twist them around to suit yourself, and kill away. That's real Jesus like.

I think I've pointed out to you once before that there are no experts on the bible and certainly not you. I doubt you've actually read the entire book through once, because if you had, you would probably notice that there is an on going theme in the new testament. By the way, I have read the entire bible a few times. Anyway, part of that theme in the new testament is not to kill. Another part of that theme would be not to judge, but evidently God holds you at a higher level than Jesus does. You guys like to play the new testament off the old one. It the new testament doesn't justify your arguement, go to the old one and vice versa...The new one is more compassionate while the old one is more fire and brimstone with the eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth bit. One of the big 10 commandments is Thou Shall Not Kill....but I guess that if you kill in the name of George Bush or Liver Head, you are justified in killing as many "ragheads", "gooks", "chinks", "spicks", "japs", "ruskies", "commies", "fags", "dykes".....I won't even say the N word because it's been overused so damn much and I'm sure you can come up with more hate names than I ever could. So, unless someone believes or does as you do, they are of a lesser sort in your book correct? I guess you will truly be inheriting the wind because there will only be room for you in your heaven.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/08/2007 @ 5:59pm
In the end, it's no much more difficult to see God than it is to see "red". The only additional requirement is perhaps faith as big as a mustard seed.

Posted by SRJENKINS 08/08/2007 @ 4:38pm

How do you get to that conclusion? I have perfect vision and an acceptable intellect. Yet, I have seen lots of red (Even when it wasn't there!). But, I have never seen god. Or even evidence of a god. (BTW, calling anything you don't understand god, is a BS copout).

I understand you have your faith, and that's cool. But, to call god easily found is just flat wrong. Gave up decades ago. (Right after I finally let go of santa claus, who, at least, left actual "evidence" of his exsistance. Of course, it took real, actual, exsistant people, to create that illusion).

Eric

Posted by Malcontent at 08/08/2007 @ 6:06pm
Posted by MASK 08/07/2007 @ 10:25pm

SATAN IS A POWER FREAK MUCH LIKE BUSH/CHENEY...

And Armageddon is actually a small city in Iraq....

After you finish "The Book of Revelation," (KJV only, please), read John Milton's great epic "Paradise Lost" for an insight into Satan's political motivation. Basically, Satan rebelled (pre-Eden) against God because he envied God's power and thought he could, well, replace Him and do a better job.

Added note: The Antichrist was actually Hitler. Dwight Eisenhower was the Archangle Michael. It's over folks, we're now enjoying the Reign of a Thousand Years of Peace (yeah, right!) Because -- get this -- EVERYBODY was left behind.

Jesus is coming, and boy, is He pissed.

________________________________________________________________

Hey, I can tell you've been studying.

Peter talked of three earth ages.

2 Peter 3:

[5] For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the Word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

[6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished

This is not talking about the flood of Noah. Everything did not perish in that flood. And Noah's flood was only local. The flood spoken of here was earth-wide. The Hebrew calls this the tohu va bohu. Science does not dispute Yahweh in this. There was, at one time, a catastrophic flood in which all perished, even the dinosaurs.

We further see in Genesis 1:2 that the earth BECAME (nayah) that way. This is the same Hebrew used when Yahweh breathed into Eth haAdam His spirit and Eth haAdam BECAME (nayah) a living being. So forget about the word "WAS" as in "and the earth was..." that is not the correct translation.

[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This is the current flesh age.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This is the age to come.

So, Peter declares that there are three heaven and earth ages: 1) The world that then was, which perished, 2) the heaven and earth which is now, and 3) the new heaven and new earth age to come.

Paul was caught up to this future third heaven in 2 Cor. 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

John was taken to the third heaven in Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The word "first" used here is the same word translated "former" in verse 4. So the heaven and earth that pass away in this verse is the one prior to the "new" one.

The "world that was" as stated in Genesis 1:2, is the one prior to this earth age. It was totally destroyed.

Jeremiah 4:

[22] For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

[23] I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Here it is, the same "without form, and void", "tohu va bohu" used in Genesis 1:2.

[24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

[25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

So again, we can see that this is not the flood of Noah for NOTHING survived. In Noah's flood there were certainly many animals; not to mention Noah and his family.

[26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

CITIES were broken down. There were cities.

Paul taught mysteries. For example, in Ephesians 1:4 he tells us that God's elect were chosen before the "katabole", the overthrow of Satan, before the foundation of this earth age.

Father Yahweh says that He knew us before we were born into this age, He knew us from the beginning.

Jeremiah 1:

[5] Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Proverbs 8:

[22] Yahweh possessed me in the beginning of his way, before His works of old.

2 Pet. 3

[1] This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

[2] That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

[3] Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

[4] And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

[5] For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

[6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Job 38:

[1] Then Yahweh answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

[2] Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

[3] Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

[4] Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job has no memory, therefore, no understanding of this event, but he was there. It is written that we must be born of the water (the womb) and then of the spirit and that from Yahweh we come and to Yahweh we return. To do otherwise would be as rebellious as the Nephelim. This was Yahweh's design for testing for His children – the Sons of Yahweh!

[5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

[6] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

[7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of Yahweh shouted for joy?

Why did Yahweh see the need for this testing?

Lucifer was a morning star. The one who seduced Eve in the garden may have been Sammael (Talmud) or Gadrel, but it was the king Tyrus (the little rock); the bright and morning who led our people astray in the first earth age. He goes by many names. He is the one who walked as a priest (a star) among the Sons of Yahweh. He led a third of the stars astray.

Ezekiel 28:

[12] Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord Yahweh; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Deut. 32:31 "For their rock is not as our Rock..." (Revelation 15)

[13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of Yahweh; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Hebrew Workmanship -- mela'kah, mel-aw-kaw', Hebrew 4399; from the same as Hebrew 4397 (mal'ak); properly deputyship, i.e. ministry; generally employment (never servile) or work (abstract or concrete); also property (as the result of labor) :- business, + cattle, + industrious, occupation, (+ -pied), + officer, thing (made), use, (manner of) work ([-man], -manship).

See the stones and compare them to the breastplate of the priests of Levi and we see an exact match. So Tyrus was a priest. He wore the breastplate of the priesthood in the Garden of Yahweh .

Please note that the entire third row is missing from Ezekiel 28:13 in Hebrew, but it is supplied in the Septuagint. This is what the Levites were instructed to wear.

Exodus 28:

[17] And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.

[18] And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.

[19] And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.

[20] And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

[21] And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel , twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.

Ezekiel 28:

[14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God ; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

[15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer was a priest and anointed protector of the Holy Seat. Sin was found in him. He drew away a third of the Stars and Father Yahweh destroyed it all in the tohu va bohu, mentioned in Genesis chapter 1: 2.

Genesis 1:

[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. …thus creating the second age, which is one of the flesh in which we currently live.

What better way for Yahweh to show His children what it is like to be a parent, a child, and loved one – to be hurt. Since, in the first age, we inhabited incorruptible bodies, we did not and could not understand the finality of death. Our Father's intent was to expose us to this concept so that we could better understand.

Posted by James1958 at 08/08/2007 @ 8:17pm
Mal, the christoids are pathetic in the way they have to come around here and throw everything into the blender of their religion. must be very insecure about their god thing.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/08/2007 @ 8:45pm
Box-o-Christians,

lots-o-disputes.

Must be The Truth.

Has there been a time when strong military links to religion have been good? JR?

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 8:59pm
Just continue reading your Koran and perhaps it will come to you in a vision!

Posted by RIO BRAVO 08/08/2007 @ 12:40pm

I keep my Koran with my copy of "The Protocols". Right next to my collection of unicorn biology texts.

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 9:01pm
Go ahead, RIO, list the differences between you and Bin Laden.

God/Allah

Jesus/Muhammed

Hate gays/hate gays

want to control sex/want to control sex

Want to have prayer in school/want to have prayer in school

Want to kill the infidels/want to kill the infidels

Willing to bomb innocent people to feel safe/ Willing to bomb innocent people to feel safe

hates liberals/hates liberals

Not too bright/ pretty smart

OK, not a perfect match.

Posted by crabwalk at 08/08/2007 @ 9:04pm
Posted by MALCONTENT 08/08/2007 @ 6:06pm

My argument is knowledge of God is an experience. Whether you use the label Jah, Moner Manush, the Light Within or something else, the concept is the same. "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you." It isn't science. It's a relationship.

Posted by JOHANNESROLF 08/08/2007 @ 8:45pm

If there was any article on The Nation that deserves a religious framing, this is it. I reckon squeamishness around the topic, particularly when it is especially relevant, suggests an insecurity of another sort. Don't you think?

Posted by srjenkins at 08/08/2007 @ 9:34pm
Has there been a time when strong military links to religion have been good? JR?

Posted by CRABWALK 08/08/2007 @ 8:59pm | ignore this person

see Bob Dylans song "with god on our side"

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/08/2007 @ 9:35pm
Not too bright/ pretty smart

OK, not a perfect match.

Posted by CRABWALK 08/08/2007 @ 9:04pm

Hate to disagree there, crab, but not too dumb to pull of what they have, in such a short time.

Never underestimate your enemy.

Eric

Posted by Malcontent at 08/08/2007 @ 9:35pm
Posted by SRJENKINS 08/08/2007 @ 9:34pm | ignore this person

religion is faith. personal faith. keep it to yourself.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/08/2007 @ 9:37pm
SR, yes it is the subject of this thread. religion's abuse that is.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/08/2007 @ 9:37pm
Mask is so impressed with his own logic that he seems incapable of understanding anything that doesn't line up with his own self-assumed mental prowess.

Posted by LVLIBERTY1 08/08/2007 @ 3:29pm

Did that refute any of my logic...or just try to mock it?

Posted by Mask at 08/08/2007 @ 11:21pm
Posted by SRJENKINS 08/08/2007 @ 4:38pm

SRJ, your analogy is false on several points.

1. You are not "God" nor defined as infallible because you are God.

2. If you wer God and made such a prediction..."MASK will post here again, it is ordained as the movement of the stars" or similar b.s.....I could, as a creature of free will, NOT post here again and prove you wrong.

In fact, if I was an "Adversary" of you ("God") and wished to show that I was more powerful than you....I'd cease posting on this forum or even the whole "Nation" blog (much to the relief of some here).

The existance of my free will negates the possibility of you predicting my future actions. The existance of an antagonistic free will (opposing you and your aims) means that I can fail to do what you predict I will do, and thus confound you.

Absolutes are the problem for these End Timers. They postulate an "absolute good, absolute infallible God" predicting (through his Biblical author intermediaries) the actions of an "intelligent and free-willed Satan" doing a predetermined set of actions (such as my example of "marking the Left Behind unsaved with the Mark of the Beast").

Failure by Satan to do EVEN ONE of these things, negates God's "prophecy" and thus negates God's infallibility and thus would render God "less than God"....an ASTOUNDING victory for Satan.

To foolishly follow the prophecies (believing that he could confound them later) would show a STUPID Satan...thus negating his reputation as "super-humanly intelligent".

Posted by Mask at 08/08/2007 @ 11:29pm
Posted by RIO BRAVO

Reguarding your post it appears you follow the same "Waring Blender Derived" universalism scheme of religious practice followed by many here but, without the secular anti-God take!

Not at all. Yahweh and Yashua heMessiach are God. God the spirit and God made flesh. There is no other! There is no way into Father Yahweh's kingdom except through Yahshua.

I will probably be blasted by the "anyway you want" crowd. But, that's OK. I will continue to speak the truth. The universalism, of which you speak, is from the same group of people, who claim to be Yahweh's only people. Excuse me, they never actually say who their god is, do they? They always type G-d, which is more revealing than one can imagine. I happen to know their god's name.

The lineage of an Edomite Jew, passes via the mother, and yet, it is perfectly clear that the lineage of the TRUE Israelites, including Judah, is patriarchal and lineage passes via the father.

But we are somehow to believe that it suddenly changed, just 'cause they said so. I know why this is, but if I am interpreting you correctly, you are not a believer, so I hardly see the point of wasting my time or yours.

You seemingly despise the Christianity of LVLIBERTY

Unfortunately, she is misguided. Yes, I DESPISE Judeo-Xtianity. One cannot side with the anti-Christ and then say that they are followers of Christ. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

To add insult to injury (as if it really matters to Yahweh what they think) they call Edomites, who have absolutely NO BLOOD of the Judahites flowing through their veins, God's chosen people!!!!!

They are blind. I hate that occultist religion, and I hate people, like Hagee, Robertson, et. el. who are leading Yahweh's children, like her, AWAY from Yahshua, instead of towards Him. Nevertheless, she and she alone, will be held accountable for her own study, or lack thereof.

based as it is on the Old and New Testament taken from the Hebrew and Greek texts which is nothing new under the sun of course.

I have a difficult time talking with those who aren't believers. There is no common ground. I take it this is your stance by the reference above. Am I interpreting you correctly?

In a nutshell, I have a real hard time with hypocrisy. So did Yahshua. Witness his overturning of the usury tables, set up in the very Temple of worship. The Edomites, who controlled most of the temple at that time, created an abomination before the LORD, via usury. There was only a small sect of Aseans, who had true Judahite or Benjamite blood in them. Joseph, Yashua's great uncle resigned from the Sanhedrin rather than vote to crucify The Christ Messiah. He later financed the very first Christian Church building, in the world, in Southern England from his profits from the tin minds of Ireland (Innas Fail).

The very people who own the banks and practice usury are the one's the Judeo-Xtians use to insult Yahweh and attempt as if it were possible, to make null and void the sacrifice of Yahshua. In fact, they have, for themselves... They are the one's, who will stand before Yahshua and claim the wonderful works they did, in His name. And He will tell them to depart from Him because they did not know Him, therefore He does not know them. What sorrow and weeping.

This prophesy of the end time cannot apply to the Jews because they cannot make the claim claim that they served Yahshua. They hate Him.

Controlling the Temple was tantamount to controlling the masses and that they did through economics, religion, education and the media. And the secular king of the Jews was none other than Herod, another Edomite. This is eerily familiar somehow.

This is why I also hate them, because they are traitors to the West and the United States -- helping our mortal enemies, whose legacy of enmity goes back to Kayen (Cain).

Did you know that Kayen, in Hebrew, means "possessions" and that Able, in Hebrew, means "breath of life". So Possessions rose up and slew the Breath of Life. And so they attempted to do via the pharaoh against Moses. And so they attempted to do, via Herod when the Messiah was born. And so they did, when Yahshua had completed His mission, and willingly laid down His life for His people.

Now the Edomite Jews want to control the M.E. You see the Middle Easterners use dinars and other such currencies, which are not controlled by the Edomites, and Muslims are just as opposed to usury and the Christians SHOULD BE, but are not. Most of them support Babylon, only they refer to it as the Federal Reserve; the Bank of England and other such International Banksters (all of whom are Jews). Don't get me wrong, I really can't see anything wrong with capitalism, which does not break the Commandments of Yahweh, such as lying, stealing, bearing false witness, etc. It is the manner in which things are funded, which is sinful before Yahweh (and He is all that matters to me).

Now, the Edomites, via the US and England, had some semblance of control over the Middle Eastern currencies, through usury and the inevitable inflation, which comes from such a ponzi scheme, as long as one could only buy oil with US dollars. The US and England, by the way, were the ONLY two nations, in which one could purchase oil, and all purchases had to be made in US Dollars.

Saddam's fatal mistake, was to think he could ever set up his own oil borscht, and trade in Dinars. These are beyond the reach of the Edomites, at this time. Also, dinars are minted with actual and varying amounts of gold, thereby dinars have the true value of their worth. Iran, by the way, has only recently opened his own oil borscht. He was a little more savvy. He decided to trade in Euros. Nevertheless, such a gesture is the one finger salute to Bush and really has no bearing on the Banksters' plans as Euros are controlled by them.

Now, the fact is that all the EXITS are being closed for oil exports from Iraq (one of their main objectives) so that the only "viable" route for oil export is through Haifa.

Soon, the Edomites Jews (and the Israelite Judas') will have complete control over most of the world and the NWO (the beast) will be complete -- and the Judeo-Xtians can thank themselves that they played such a large role in setting it up. Won't Yahweh be so proud?

Would you want to claim a child who betrayed you so badly?

Posted by James1958 at 08/09/2007 @ 12:49am
"Mask is so impressed with his own logic that he seems incapable of understanding anything that doesn't line up with his own self-assumed mental prowess."

Posted by LVLIBERTY1 08/08/2007 @ 3:29pm

Question to LOVRLEVEIT: What is it about your comment that doesn't qualify it as a 'personal attack?'

______________________________________

"Hey, I can tell you've been studying."

Posted by JAMES1958 08/08/2007 @ 8:17pm

Question to JIMMY58: I take it that your slightly dull point is that only the self-annointed expert, such as yourself, is knowledgeable enough to offer anything of value to this 'conversation.' And yet...HERE YOU ARE!

Uh, WHY?

_____________________________

"BTO did in fact do a cover of American Woman, which was released by RCA in 1970. A quick google search wold have told you that."

Posted by BURNSEY 08/08/2007 @ 5:45pm

Question to BE URN SEE?: But isn't a lot more fun to simply challenge your knowledge and memory? You can't play 'Name That Tune' with reference materials man!

___________________________

Buffalo Springfield? "yes. written by Stephen Stills"

Posted by JOHANNESROLF 08/08/2007 @ 4:57pm

Question to JOHNNYROOF: Can you name (without looking it up dammit) another NON-Canadian from this seminal rock group?

_________________________________

So, is this the Nation Online Welcoming Committee? I'm impressed, but hell, I'm just an aging hayseed so whaddoIknow?

After wandering around the internet wasteland for what seems like four and forty years, I consider this discussion the most interesting I have ever read on the subject.

The highjacking of Christianity by fundies and supremecists, and their unholy political alliance with pandering and cynical Republican quasi-conservatives, is easily the most insidiously threatening force (farce?) this Republic has seen since the Redcoats topped Bunker Hill. I am one patriot who feels petitions to the King and his court are fruitless, and we must now calmly anticipate the sight of the "whites of their eyes."

Posted by Flatwater at 08/09/2007 @ 01:34am
Question to JIMMY58: I take it that your slightly dull point is that only the self-annointed expert, such as yourself, is knowledgeable enough to offer anything of value to this 'conversation.' And yet...HERE YOU ARE!

Uh, WHY?

That's a valid question. I am simply providing you with information, if you choose to read it. If you choose to read it, then you can choose to accept or reject it.

Is that fair enough?

PS: Sorry if it was dull to you. If it had been me, I would have chosen to ignore the post. But that's just me.

Posted by James1958 at 08/09/2007 @ 01:43am
It seems clear that you and Rese and Plunger are part of the same cult.

Now if you want serious dialogue about truth faith in Christ.

You may email me at tabernaclehope@hotmail.com

Pastor Larry Robinson Senior Pastor

No thank you.

Posted by James1958 at 08/09/2007 @ 03:10am
What is his secret message love children in the adult way, brutalize yur wife and hide it, have a homosexual affair while condemning it, have a homosexual affair and offer to perform the act and claim human color fear factor, Self loathing self hatred I mean they are so diverse haw does one follow these hateful two mouth speaking christians I know give up Free Thinking Critical thought and follow blindly. TAX Churches

Posted by DDA at 08/09/2007 @ 03:54am
What is his secret message love children in the adult way, brutalize yur wife and hide it, have a homosexual affair while condemning it, have a homosexual affair and offer to perform the act and claim human color fear factor, Self loathing self hatred I mean they are so diverse haw does one follow these hateful two mouth speaking christians I know give up Free Thinking Critical thought and follow blindly. TAX Churches

Posted by DDA at 08/09/2007 @ 03:56am
Posted by DDA 08/09/2007

What is his secret message love children in the adult way, brutalize yur wife and hide it, have a homosexual affair while condemning it, have a homosexual affair and offer to perform the act and claim human color fear factor, Self loathing self hatred I mean they are so diverse haw does one follow these hateful two mouth speaking christians I know give up Free Thinking Critical thought and follow blindly.

Those people are not Christians. You judge people by who they say they are, rather than their fruits.

I know many hateful people, but not all of them are Christians. Bolsheviks effectively banned church and Christianity. The Edomite Bolsheviks thoroughly enjoyed murdering upwards of 70 million Russian Christians. The Synagogues, however, remained strangely untouched for the most part.

TAX Churches

That would certainly defeat the Zionist Government of the United States' purpose.

A 501c, necessary to ensure tax exempt status, carries with it penalties for discussing politics or using church as a political platform. But as we can see, 501c churches can and do get away with it quit often. Witness both Bill Clinton and George Bush.

They both work for the same bosses, who are the leaders of Babylon, the International banks.

There is no rational reason why a 501c Church, like the cult of Hagee, should be able to preach politics from the pulpit, fleece the flock and use that money to bribe the Zionist Occupied US Government with tax exempt political contributions. Yet they get away with it. And if you will notice, these deviants and spousal abusers have ALL come the Zionist Judeo-Xtian sect.

I love the way they want to crucify people of the left, and yet are clambering over one another to forgive [and forget please] the latest indiscretion of their cult leaders. If one questions them on this, they accuse the questioner with being unChristian, while at the same time, cheering the death and destruction of others at their prodding.

It is telling that they oppose abortion, and yet cheer wars of raw aggression, where innocent children are sure to be murdered. I guess "blessed are the peace makers" rings hollow with them. Their motto should be "Don't murder your baby before it is born. We want to do it ourselves, after they are born."

I have no doubt their blatant hypocrisy eludes them.

I agree with you that no TRUE gathering place for Christians can agree to 501c status and therefore would, under the proper conditions, be taxed. Those who accept these conditions basically built their foundation on sand. They did not choose the proper corner stone. The real issue of 501c organizations, is that they give up (or are stating so) their right to teach the message as it is properly translated. Since the Zionists are in control (and have been, for a very long time. 501c's are great. They get to have their politics protected, while someone who taught the truth about The Word, as it is literally written, would have 501c status waved at them like a weapon.

Posted by James1958 at 08/09/2007 @ 04:55am
"Straight up" is a term prostitutes use to refer to fellatio performed on a prone client.

Posted by bob h at 08/09/2007 @ 06:48am
Straight up" is a term prostitutes use to refer to fellatio performed on a prone client.

Posted by BOB H 08/09/2007 @ 06:48am

Wouldn't this be 'straight down,' as when lying prone, one is face down; 'supine' would be the anatomically correct term, I think.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/09/2007 @ 06:57am
Not to be a nit picking prick or anything.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/09/2007 @ 06:57am
It's easy to make fun of the Rapture set and consider them irrelevant. But when one of them is running the country, and has the power of cosmocide at his disposal,that's pretty frightening.

BTW, for anyone interested in an analysis of how the "peace through military victory" version of Christianity replaced the actual spirit of true Christianity, I highly recommend John Crossan's "God and Empire."

Posted by rayn at 08/09/2007 @ 08:22am
Posted by SKELETONMAN 08/09/2007 @ 06:57am | ignore this person

very funny. you ever get the feeling you're corresponding with knuckleheads?

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/09/2007 @ 08:46am
Posted by WOLFGANG1 08/08/2007 @ 5:59pm | ignore this person

good one. Liberty preaches nothing but hate, when he's not busy congratulating himself for his charitable work. Maimonedes explains the different kinds of charity. take a look.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/09/2007 @ 08:49am
very funny. you ever get the feeling you're corresponding with knuckleheads?

Posted by JOHANNESROLF 08/09/2007 @ 08:46am

Often, actually. Occasionally there will be a moment when there seems to be something approaching a breakthrough - e.g. Thrawn posting that he/she was supportive of impeachment - which keeps me reading.

I guess I post mostly to bring to light - usually from the absurdist point of view - the mendacity and the utter pig headedness of those 25%'ers who post here. Certain of them are without parallel in this category.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/09/2007 @ 09:01am
"That would certainly defeat the Zionist Government of the United States' purpose."----Posted by JAMES1958 08/09/2007 @ 04:55am

Hey, hey. Looks like we got us a ZOG'er! [en.wikipedia.org]

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 09:03am
Posted by MALCONTENT 08/08/2007 @ 9:35pm

We agree. It is Rio who is not too bright. Bin Laden has accomplished his goals, one of which was to get the US bogged down in a ME conflict.

chimpy fell right into it. Not too bright.

Posted by crabwalk at 08/09/2007 @ 09:06am
Maybe Christs lambs could all come to an agreement at the end of a gun barrel.

Gen Boykin boinkin a haggard Rev Haggard could also lead us down the path to Truth.

when was the last great Buddhist War?

Salvation can only be found internally, the rest is mumbo jumbo used to cover up the processes of the little grey cells.

Posted by crabwalk at 08/09/2007 @ 09:16am
Salvation can only be found internally, the rest is mumbo jumbo used to cover up the processes of the little grey cells.

Posted by CRABWALK 08/09/2007 @ 09:16am

Didn't some dude once say, 'behold, the kingdom of heaven is within you' ?

I heard that somewhere once.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/09/2007 @ 09:25am
You may email me at tabernaclehope@hotmail.com

Pastor Larry Robinson Senior Pastor

Ahh, the Pope has declared you a false church anyway, and he is infallible. It is well documented.

Posted by crabwalk at 08/09/2007 @ 09:31am
Posted by SKELETONMAN 08/09/2007 @ 09:25am

didn't that same long haired hippy socialist also say the only way to God was through him? Deeds are fine, but just not enough.

Even Chimpy will get in, though his deeds are fruitless.

Posted by crabwalk at 08/09/2007 @ 09:35am
A new standard text for the Academy:

BROTHER MAYNARD: Armaments, chapter two, verses nine to twenty-one.

SECOND BROTHER: And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that, with it, Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits in Thy mercy.'

And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and large chu--

MAYNARD: Skip a bit, Brother.

SECOND BROTHER: And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.'

Posted by crabwalk at 08/09/2007 @ 09:39am
What I do not get about the video game is this: if I am an evangelical Christian, how can I run around killing the non-believers who did not ascend to heaven in the rapture? Would I, as a saved individual, now not be in heaven as well?

Posted by entzaubert at 08/09/2007 @ 09:46am
Posted by ENTZAUBERT 08/09/2007 @ 09:46am

Maybe leave is given for those willing to gun down the non-beleivers. The more you kill, the closer to the front of the line you go?

Posted by crabwalk at 08/09/2007 @ 09:55am
didn't that same long haired hippy socialist also say the only way to God was through him? Deeds are fine, but just not enough.

Even Chimpy will get in, though his deeds are fruitless.

Posted by CRABWALK 08/09/2007 @ 09:35am

Wasn't part of the long haired hippie type pinko's point that one doesn't need the religious hierarchy to find heaven?

This is what the Taliban Taliban and the American Taliban (not to mention the Roman Taliban) fail to understand. Or understand but want to club to death like a baby harp seal.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/09/2007 @ 10:07am
What I do not get about the video game is this: if I am an evangelical Christian, how can I run around killing the non-believers who did not ascend to heaven in the rapture? Would I, as a saved individual, now not be in heaven as well?

Posted by ENTZAUBERT 08/09/2007 @ 09:46am

Good point. Which brings us back to what underlying message this 'game' is really sending.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/09/2007 @ 10:09am
Posted by SKELETONMAN 08/09/2007 @ 10:07am

without the hierarchy to explain what the symbolic prophecies actually mean, how are the sheep to know that Israel is the lamb, and the branch and the... while gog is actually Russia....

Posted by crabwalk at 08/09/2007 @ 10:16am
without the hierarchy to explain what the symbolic prophecies actually mean, how are the sheep to know that Israel is the lamb, and the branch and the... while gog is actually Russia....

Posted by CRABWALK 08/09/2007 @ 10:16am

Ummm...introspection?

A quality that is curiously lacking among most of us. Hierarchy, lowerarchy, in-betweenarchy.

Posted by skeletonman at 08/09/2007 @ 10:21am
Posted by ENTZAUBERT 08/09/2007 @ 09:46am

Got to understand the mythos, ENTZA.

See (in the End Timers' view) a goodly (heheh) number of "End Times saints"...folks not Raptured, but who get saved after the Rapture and are persecuted by the Antichrist during the "Tribulation". They are represented in the LeHaye books and movies by the characters of Rayford Steele, Chloe Steele Williams, "Buck" Williams, etc. (played by Brad Johnson, Janaya Stephens, and the irrepressible ((Please, somebody repress him)) Kirk Cameron respectively).

So, even after the Rapture, all the "saints" will have a chance to show their Christian virtue by wasting dozens of people in a massive fire-fight.

Not sure, but willing to bet that like "Grand Theft Auto", you can probably (in a Christian manner of course) beat hookers to death with a baseball bat.

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 10:39am
Posted by SKELETONMAN 08/09/2007 @ 10:21am

doesn't that lead to Koresh/Jones's? Or ten million versions of biblical Truth. (versus the thousand we have now)

Posted by crabwalk at 08/09/2007 @ 10:49am
Jeebus say "Sex bad, violence good"

violent sex..... head exploding...

Posted by crabwalk at 08/09/2007 @ 10:50am
This thread shows how Christian beliefs vary to the extreme and shows how easy it is to arrive at vastly different views based on Biblical verses and teachings.The Jews,of course,have a different view of what the OT says than Christians do.

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/09/2007 @ 12:40pm
LvLiberty-There aren't any leftist or anti Christian lies on this subject.If you read the very first sentence of Revelations you'll discover that Revelations has had no meaning since the death of Nero.The only people who are lying are those who believe that Revelations has meaning now.It's amazing how many ignorant people don't know what the word "shortly" means.

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/09/2007 @ 12:45pm
What's more, OSU's "Freedom Packages" include a copy of evangelical pastor Jonathan McDowell's More Than A Carpenter

The author is actually Josh McDowell. (Culled from the memory of my misbegotten fundie past).

Posted by csnedek at 08/09/2007 @ 1:02pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 08/09/2007 @ 12:21pm

Larry, I was referring mostly to the game...BUT...if I remember correctly towards the end, wasn't "Rayford Steele" planning on assassinating "Nicholas Carpathia"?

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 1:31pm
BTW, LL....I'm not a "leftist" (ask Empty SPENCE or any with whom I disagree on their crypto-socialism and other issues)...nor "anti-Christian"...

I'm anti-illogic and anti-fundamentalism which has been shown throughout history of ALL religions to be dangerous.

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 1:33pm
LvLiberty-In other words,the Bible can't be taken literally and does contain mistakes,mistranslations,etc and one has to guess at what much of it means.That explains,at least in part,as to why there are so many diverse views based on Biblical teachings.Of course,Revelations still isn't prophesy since it did not happen in the prophets lifetime as the god of the OT said it should if a prophet is to be considered to be a prophet.

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/09/2007 @ 2:01pm
LvLiberty-The fact that 666 comes out to Nero seems to show that "shortly"is the proper interpretation.

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/09/2007 @ 2:04pm
Posted by W_M_BEAR 08/08/2007 @ 1:48pm

Well, BEAR....that makes JUST AS MUCH sense as the Tim LeHaye stuff.

heheh

Posted by MASK 08/08/2007 @ 2:15pm

KIND OF MY POINT...

But, seriously, I do recommend BOTH the "Book of Revelation" (KJV only, please -- the only version that catches the true apocalyptic quality of St. John's vision, not to say the sci-fi aspects of a New Jerusalem in the form of an enormous flying cube) AND Milton's "Paradise Lost." "Paradise Lost" is a highly interesting political statement by a radical of his day (the poet-artist William Blake thought Milton actually "sided" with Satan against God although recent litcrit has shown that he didn't actually -- he just sounds that way sometimes).

As to fundies on Sundays, I grew up with this stuff (which may, to some extent, account for my totally off-the-wall approach to religion).

Posted by w_m_bear at 08/09/2007 @ 2:10pm
Posted by JAMES1958 08/08/2007 @ 8:17pm

OF LATE, I'VE BEEN STUDYING MAINLY BUMPER STICKERS...

In addition to "Jesus is coming, and boy, is He pissed" (a perennial favorite)

Coming of Age in Some More:

"In case of Rapture, this car will be empty"

And the ripostes:

"In case of Rapture, can I have your car?"

"In case of Rapture, will the White House be empty? (Hopefully?)"

And another goody (still on the subject of religion)

"If you see the Buddha in the road, honk!"

Posted by w_m_bear at 08/09/2007 @ 2:21pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 08/09/2007 @ 1:54pm

Well then your statement of 12:21pm was incorrect, wasn't it?

Besides, why would YOU object to post-Rapture Christians taking up arms and killing the unrighteous?

You have previously endorsed NUKING China to win the Korean War, and under inquiry, seem to indicate that Christ would have no objections to total war. Seems that the "Tribulation Forces" are quite TAME compared to your recommendations for thwarting evil!

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 2:31pm
Posted by W_M_BEAR 08/09/2007 @ 2:10pm

I did Milton in college...as Donald Sutherland says in "Animal House" "He's boring and his jokes are terrible...Mrs Milton thought so too".

Speaking of illogic, how EXACTLY would a "war in Heaven" be fought? Spiritual "weaponry"? "Swords of flame"? Why not long ranged weaponry (a al cannons and rifles)? heheh

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 2:34pm
Hey, hey. Looks like we got us a ZOG'er! [en.wikipedia.org]

Posted by MASK 08/09/2007 @ 09:03am

I know all about wikipedia and their admitted Zionist and Jewish bias. I also know so many of THEIR definitions of things, which are off base. The site is unreliable.

Let's take your link for example. They almost start off with the worn, tired and DECEITFULLY used word "anti-Semitism"

And yet, the Edomite Jews even admit themselves that they are NOT Judahites and should not be confused with that term.

They admit that they are of Edom. I am not calling them names, when I use the word. It is their own self description. They are Khazars and Ashkenazi, for the most part.

Now, knowing this, let's look at the word "anti-Semite". It cannot possibly be "anti-semitism" to be against the Edomite Jews. Edom is NOT of Shem. Only the decentdent of Shem can be Shemites; these are the TRUE children of Isreal. Therefore, this bias can only be applied to them.

Edomites (Khazars Ashenazi, etc. -- which accounts for 94-98% of all this claiming to be Jewish. It is impossible to be an anti-S[h]emite where they are concerned.

One of the tricks of the "opposers of Yahweh" is slight of hand and subtle change of meaning. When words loose their true meaning, honest discourse becomes impossible.

Posted by James1958 at 08/09/2007 @ 3:19pm
Posted by MASK 08/08/2007 @ 11:29pm

You stated: "Plus "prophecy" by its very nature defies "free will"."

I made a "prophesy" - let's pretend it was even a God inspired prophesy. It turned out to be true. Did this impact your free will?

No, ergo, we have demonstrated a counter-factual case where your argument doesn't apply and you need to address it. And no, you can't even establish even in this case that it wasn't God inspired simply because you are too busy disbelieving in a different God that the one I believe in.

The point of this illustration is that there is something fundamentally wrong in your argument around predestination and free-will. I suspect it has something to do with your assumed theology, which I suppose is your point since you are assuming some form of End-Times theology.

However, I think you make a leap from attacking a theology to attacking believe in God that isn't warranted by the argument you are presenting. Need to be careful with that - which is my point.

Posted by srjenkins at 08/09/2007 @ 3:26pm
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 08/08/2007 @ 9:37pm

Let's try a variation of that - "politics are ideas. personal ideas. keep them to yourself." And here's the clue - a faith is also an idea. You want to shut your hole regarding your "beliefs" around the world works, then perhaps you should lead the way so the Christians you are chastisizing have a model to follow.

Posted by srjenkins at 08/09/2007 @ 3:30pm
LvLiberty-The fact that 666 comes out to Nero seems to show that "shortly"is the proper interpretation.

Posted by I'M NOBODY

You appear to share the Preterist Eschatology. My youngest brother does too.

I've read several beliefs with regards to prophesy. I don't share my brother's belief, but I don't think that sort of disagreement is detrimental to ones salvation.

Posted by James1958 at 08/09/2007 @ 3:31pm
Posted by JAMES1958 08/09/2007 @ 3:19pm

SO what is it, James? What kind of church you go to? Fred Phelps' kind of church or just more "Church of Jesus Christ-Christian" with a bunch of young lads in very, very, very short haircuts?

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 3:31pm
Posted by FLATWATER 08/09/2007 @ 01:34am

Welcome. You won't find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

Posted by srjenkins at 08/09/2007 @ 3:33pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 08/09/2007 @ 02:30am

Why do the words..."truth faith in Christ," make me think, "snakeoil"?

Posted by srjenkins at 08/09/2007 @ 3:34pm
Posted by SRJENKINS 08/09/2007 @ 3:30pm | ignore this person

try being a human being first, a christian second. there are many religions and many paths to a spiritual life. you don't see me throwing everything into the religious grinder. many of the christoids here preach nothing but hate. do you want to be in that number?

Jesus incidentally was explicit on the separation of church and state.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/09/2007 @ 3:36pm
Posted by JAMES1958 08/09/2007 @ 3:19pm

SO what is it, James? What kind of church you go to? Fred Phelps' kind of church or just more "Church of Jesus Christ-Christian" with a bunch of young lads in very, very, very short haircuts?

Posted by MASK

I do not go to a church.

Posted by James1958 at 08/09/2007 @ 3:38pm
Posted by SRJENKINS 08/09/2007 @ 3:26pm

No, no, no, SRJ....figured you'd try that trick, but it doesn't work. Because YOU "SRJENKINS" "predicts" that I will respond to you on a blog, doesn't equate to "God predicting Satan will do such and such in the End Times".

Again, if you were "God" and I was "Satan" (by the way, wouldn't that be cool? God and Satan hashing it out on the blogs!..heheh)....the situation would be different from several metaphysical aspects. Satan seeks to defeat God...and a perfect way to do that would be to NOT do something that God has predicted Satan would do (as a future advisor to His Excellency Nicholae Carpathia...that's going to be my advice to the Boss).

My argument was about the End Timers and their mythos...which I believe you said you too don't agree with.

But if you want to get into predestination, happy to as well, as it creates a God I want nothing to do with. Basic predestination says that since God is both omniscient and omnipotent, that he knew (at the beginning of Time) which souls would go to Heaven and which to Hell....and created them so.

If true, then you have a Being which created BILLIONS of eternal souls with the idea of torturing them for all eternity....or (if charitable) created BILLIONS of no-so-eternal souls with no chance at Heaven, just to "test" the ones that he created who were going to Heaven regardless.

So, He's either a monumental sadist...or a nut, establishing a "test" that He already determined the outcome of and whose "exam" is meaningless.

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 3:39pm
Posted by SRJENKINS 08/09/2007 @ 3:33pm

But, this IS where some of the best pilots in the Galaxy can be found!

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 3:39pm
I do not go to a church.

Posted by JAMES1958 08/09/2007 @ 3:38pm

Good...they tend to be a breeding ground. So, how many copies of the "Protocols" have you gone through in your life?

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 3:40pm
"politics are ideas. personal ideas. keep them to yourself."

this is false. politics is about the relations between people and their society. while religion has a social component it is essentially the relation of the individual and his god.

I am a spiritual atheist, and I'm tired of these fake christians constantly polluting the discussion. you're not the only goddamn religion, so stop pretending you are.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/09/2007 @ 3:40pm
Posted by MASK 08/09/2007 @ 2:34pm

You need to revisit Milton then. The section (Book 5) with Abdiel alone is worth the read.

Posted by srjenkins at 08/09/2007 @ 3:45pm
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 08/09/2007 @ 3:36pm

Please re-read your own post and tell me where you think the logical fallacies might be - a particularly bad post on your part, but then again, I've had my share too.

Posted by srjenkins at 08/09/2007 @ 3:49pm
Mask, if everything is a free choice, how do you explain the fact the Yahweh HARDENED the pharaoh of Egypt's heart? And there are many other instances where Yahweh hardened men's hearts.

How can you explain Jonah or Saul/Paul?

Yahweh uses people for His purpose. That doesn't mean there isn't a certain degree of freedom. Jonah, for example chose to head away from Nineveh. Yahweh; however, had different plans.

Paul had every intent to continue to persecute the growing Christian community. Yahweh, however; had different plans.

Posted by James1958 at 08/09/2007 @ 3:50pm
Posted by SRJENKINS 08/09/2007 @ 3:45pm

Been a while....plus not sure I remember "artillery" being used...heheh.

Plus, plus....I KNOW you're not saying that Milton is "Scriptural" or was divinely inspired, right?

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 3:52pm
Posted by JAMES1958 08/09/2007 @ 3:50pm

JAMES, if you want to believe we are "God's robots", fine and dandy....put it in the same column as your believe in the ZOG, "International Jewish Conspiracy" and (probably) the blood libel.

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 3:53pm
Posted by MASK 08/09/2007 @ 3:39pm

I don't subscribe to end-times anything. I just think your arguments are weak because you have all these smuggled in assumptions - which may or may not be based on some fundamentalist Christian understanding. I don't know whether you are presenting their argument well or not, but I suspect not because it comes across as laughably stupid.

Posted by JOHANNESROLF 08/09/2007 @ 3:40pm

I'm sure those Christians think your pollution of their discussion with your "spiritual atheism" is rather inconvenient as well. But for some reason you think everyone should sign up for your "spiritual atheism"? You sensing the irony here? Wouldn't life be great if your views were the cultural norm? Shoot, on that logic alone, you should go down to the nearest church and accept Jesus into your heart as "your personal loud and savior". I think LVL would be happy to do the honors.

Posted by srjenkins at 08/09/2007 @ 4:01pm
I stand by that post.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/09/2007 @ 4:01pm
But for some reason you think everyone should sign up for your "spiritual atheism"?

this is just not true. I mention my spiritual leanings only in the context of christian posts. my humanism pervades my posts, but I do not exhort anyone to agree with me, or follow me. you are barking up the wrong tree here.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/09/2007 @ 4:09pm
Posted by JAMES1958 08/09/2007 @ 3:50pm

JAMES, if you want to believe we are "God's robots", fine and dandy....put it in the same column as your believe in the ZOG, "International Jewish Conspiracy" and (probably) the blood libel.

Posted by MASK

You're a pretty angry person. You read what you want to read into things.

Now, did Yahweh change to the plans of Paul and Jonah or not? Did Yahweh harden the Pharaoh's heart or not?

I am not asking you to do anything other than read the scripture. If you want to create a new religion, with a new god, which ignores anything not in keeping with your conceptions, that is your choice. It doesn't change scripture, however.

Jeremiah 1:

[5] Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

What do you know, Jeremiah was pre-ordained before being born of the flesh. Does this mean that Jeremiah didn't have some semblance of choice and control over his own life? Not at all, but to say that everything is a matter of choice, is not scriptural.

Posted by James1958 at 08/09/2007 @ 4:09pm
Wouldn't life be great if your views were the cultural norm?

I have never assumed that, encouraged that, or expected that. unlike the christoids here. I express my views forcefully and confidently.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/09/2007 @ 4:12pm
Posted by MASK 08/09/2007 @ 3:52pm

I don't get caught up in notions about Scripture. Quakers have a long tradition of reading people's spiritual journals, and I think Paradise Lost is just as valuable as George Fox's or John Woolman's Journals.

I listen to Baul songs, read Rabbis, the Gita, Dogen, consulted the Guru Granth Sahib - shoot, I even have read some Bertrand Russell (perhaps a spiritual atheist by JR's definition?) on occasion. These are all valuable...and frankly, I find parts of the Bible - particularly by our friend Paul - to by a little less than inspiring. "Scripture" is secondary to Moner Manush.

Posted by srjenkins at 08/09/2007 @ 4:14pm
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 08/09/2007 @ 4:12pm

Interesting that you would silence others from expressing themselves "forcefully and confidently" about their personal religious belief because you would rather they keep their "personal faith" "personal". All I'm saying friend is lead the way. You put your faith on the shelf and pretend that it doesn't inform every political thought you have - and once we see how well that goes, I might give it a try. Let's see the fruit!

Posted by srjenkins at 08/09/2007 @ 4:25pm
SRJ, first....if we start accepting ANY work of fiction or even commentary as representative of "God's word" or "revelation", then it can be anything from Richard Dawkins to a Playboy interview with Pam Anderson to Harry Potter.

Second, of COURSE, my argument is based on an "understanding of Christian fundamentalism and eschatology"....that's sort of the TOPIC of this thread and the article by Max Blumenthal....not Unitarian or Society of Friends' or even mainstream Christianity's mythos of "the End Times".

Third, what is "stupid" about my argument? Point by point logic was what I noted in my original post on the End Times Mythos....

1. Is Satan intelligent and possessing free will? 2. Does he seek to thwart God? 3. Why will he act accordingly to God's "prediction" of his actions (not passive actions, but active ones, such as "placing the Mark") without violating #1 and #2?

YOU have given no specific answer to that, except the one I noted is always given "His ego will prevent him from doing otherwise" ...which negates free will, if his personality flaws can over-ride logic and deliberative action on a being's part.

Let's try YOUR analogy....I predict that SRJENKINS will upon the assumption of the righteous into Heaven....become President of the United States, impose martial law, suspend elections, execute accused political prisoners, and make everybody wear Canadian toques with his favorite baseball team's logo on it.

Now...if you do everything else, BUT the knit hats thing....I am not infallible in my prediction, am I? 90% right is not "infallible"....but 90% isn't "good enough" to be called "God".

Even if you put your favorite FOOTBALL team's logo on the tobaggans....that's still only 95% right....heheh

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 4:35pm
Posted by JAMES1958 08/09/2007 @ 4:09pm

Sorry, JAMES...need a final question answered before putting you on Ignore (a principle I enacted with another anti-Semite METTEYA)....

Who blew up the World Trade Center on 9/11?

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 4:36pm
Sorry, JAMES...need a final question answered before putting you on Ignore (a principle I enacted with another anti-Semite METTEYA)....

Who blew up the World Trade Center on 9/11?

Posted by MASK

Sorry, but you are in no position to be asking me anything. Continue with your CHOICE. Place me on ignore.

Posted by James1958 at 08/09/2007 @ 4:40pm
James-Scripture can and has been used to justify an amazing amount of contradictory beliefs and all of you claim that your interpretation is the correct one,but you all have vastly different views and all these various and assorted views are scriptural.Jews can show that Jesus is not the messiah,but Christians can point to verses here and there and claim that he is the messiah.I don't believe in the god of Abraham,but do believe in God.My view is more in tune with the teachings of Taoism.That God does allow for free choice in all things and does not harden peoples hearts.Tao does not wish to be served like the god of Abraham does.Tao wishes to serve just as Jesus wished to serve rather than be served.

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/09/2007 @ 4:42pm
SR, you are mistaken. I do not express myself through my religion or lack thereof. I do not relate everything to religion. end of story. you might try to answer my points instead of trying to put me in a little box of your making. I made a distinction between politics and religion, challenging your assertion. why not respond to that. my point was you cannot practice politics by yourself, but you can practice religion by yourself. you are evidently unable to make such a distinction.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/09/2007 @ 4:43pm
I'M NOBODY,

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion.

Posted by James1958 at 08/09/2007 @ 4:50pm
James-the problem with the Bible is that everyone can prove that their opinion is correct even though those opinions contradict one another.

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/09/2007 @ 4:56pm
I'M NOBODY...buddy, you're getting yourself involved with another METTE there.

William Dudley Pelley with a keyboard!

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 5:01pm
Posted by I'M NOBODY

James-the problem with the Bible is that everyone can prove that their opinion is correct even though those opinions contradict one another.

Can you give me an example?

Posted by James1958 at 08/09/2007 @ 5:03pm
Mask-I suspect that you are correct.

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/09/2007 @ 5:06pm
James-Can I give you an example?What planet do you live on?We've already seen contradictory views being proven by scripture on this thread.I've already given examples of contradictory views that can be proven by quoting scripture.You and love liberty can sit here all day long quoting scripture that would prove your contradictory views.Have you ever noticed that Christians have vastly different views that they all can prove correct by quoting scripture?Have you ever noticed that Jews don't believe that Jesus is the messiah and can prove that he isn't by quoting scripture?You seem a tad paranoid of Jews.Are you?

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/09/2007 @ 5:15pm
Posted by I'M NOBODY 08/09/2007 @ 5:15pm | ignore this person

there is more that separates jews from gentiles than just this messiah business.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/09/2007 @ 5:31pm
JR-Very true,but I was just trying to point out a glaring contradiction that can be proven by scripture.The fact that one side can prove he was the messiah and the other side can prove he wasn't by quoting the same book seems to be a very relevant contradiction.

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/09/2007 @ 5:35pm
yes. the devil can quote scripture the best, I have been told.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/09/2007 @ 5:40pm
JR-The devil is an interesting critter.Quotes scripture,but can't figure out that scripture doesn't go his way.I've always felt that this devil was a brilliant invention.What a wonderful thing to use to scare people with and blame things on.

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/09/2007 @ 5:48pm
Posted by MASK 08/09/2007 @ 4:35pm

As I said, you are importing all kinds of assumptions into your arguments. That may work so long as you are talking about particular evangelical belief. It doesn't work when you move it on to me.

I don't have hang-ups about what is or is not scripture - and even very clearly indicated that there are things that are considered "scripture" that I have my doubts about. If I can have doubts about Paul, I'm going to have doubts about Harry Potter - or Milton for that matter. But that isn't to say that these cannot serve as text to aid our spiritual development. They can.

Does that make them scripture? Does that make it a part of the canon? Go ask LVL, these are not questions I'm interested in.

As for your argument, I don't presume to be an expert on Satan. Here's one take that completely unravels your line of thinking. Suppose Satan is more of an idea of being as far from God as one can possibly get, but it is an idea not a person. How do your arguments around intelligence and free-will sit in that framework?

But even within the context of Satan as a being, you presume quite a bit about his motivations. Let's assume that Satan wants to be God. Then, it may be that the ideas about the prophesy is incorrect? I think this is your goal is the "prove" this point.

But the problem is that you could still argue that the prophesy is correct, but Satan thinks it is incorrect for some reason that is unknown to us and decides to follow it because of some counter-strategy he has? I can think of thousands of reasons why your simple logic fails - even within the context of assuming free-will, intelligence, malice toward God and infallability of God. Your not using your imagination.

Anyway, all this is nothing but theological crap. It presumes to know quite a bit about that which is unknowable - such as what God can and cannot do, Satan's motivations and other things. It's dreadful stuff that I generally try to avoid - and should have remembered that when I piped in here.

Posted by srjenkins at 08/09/2007 @ 5:58pm
there is more that separates jews from gentiles than just this messiah business.

Posted by JOHANNESROLF 08/09/2007 @ 5:31pm JR, What does that mean?

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/09/2007 @ 6:05pm
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 08/09/2007 @ 5:31pm JR, What does that mean?

Posted by WOLFGANG1 08/09/2007 @ 6:05pm | ignore this person

it's too big a subject. I can only suggest you study judaism in greater detail. for one thing, jews generally do not seek converts. they also did not engage in an inquisition. they were also persecuted for 2000 years. like I said it's a big subject.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/09/2007 @ 6:14pm
Posted by SRJENKINS 08/09/2007 @ 5:58pm

SRJ, again, I'm arguing based on the MYTHOS of the Christian fundamentalist. Not "Satan as an idea" or "What He would want to be"....but the character (if you will) that the End Timers believe Satan/Lucifer has.

I think you're confusing this as MY belief....I don't believe in either being (as normally defined).

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 7:17pm
Posted by MASK 08/09/2007 @ 4:35pm

Mask you seem, against millennia of contrary evidence, to assume that intelligent beings behave rationally? It could be shown intelligent beings are not thus (by that faculty) restrained from evil actions. Therefore what your "satan" knows about God's plans for him may not affect his self harming behaviour.

In fact given that your satan is derived from your understanding of certain biblical data it seems likely that being a rebel he does not accept that God is omniscient. Much less that God, by all the means at his disposal, including his creature's limited freedom (the bounds of freedom of one's actions or even one's thought are obviously bound by one's ability) ordains all that comes to pass.

So unless your satan is omniscient, omnipresent (is eternally on the spot in all the created and uncreated (?) universe) and omnipotent, let alone supremely evil then you probably need a better set of arguments to prove that the Christian's Satan cannot logically exist.

In the end the Christian Satan is not his own man but needs permission, for example, from you know who to give Job a bit of a working over to see if he is the real deal. In that sense, as well as by a creative act, the Christian Satan is God's satan and not the one of your imagination. That raises questions about who is responsible for evil and the creature's responsibility for his thoughts and actions but such questions give philosophers a reason for existence so we need not worry our little heads over these matters.

(If you are familiar with determinism and the little games philosophers play with it you would realise that you don't have to be religious to have fun with these ideas).

Posted by lrjones4 at 08/09/2007 @ 7:22pm
In the end the Christian Satan is not his own man but needs permission, for example, from you know who to give Job a bit of a working over to see if he is the real deal.----Posted by LRJONES4 08/09/2007 @ 7:22pm

Then you either make my "Satan is God's robot" argument or "Satan is so crazy it warps his rationality", LR. Which poses a dilemma to the fundamentalist belief-system.

If "God's robot or servant", then God, by commanding Satan to do and act in a certain way (again my example is the post-Rapture "mark of the Beast" decision)...is a co-conspirator/accomplice to Satan's evil. LEGALLY...God would be "equally guilty" of Satan's crimes.

If "Satan is so crazy he can't make rational judgements NOT to self-harm by refusing to do certain prophesized things"....then he is a "lesser anti-deity". Essentially a low-level and nearly-mindless thug, easily thwarted, not just by God or his angels but by Mankind. This flies in the face of the "Rebellion of Heaven" or the End Times mythos of the "diabolically charming Anti-Christ".

Again both images "robot" or "lunatic" are antithetical to the fundamentalist Hal Lindsey/Tim LaHaye vision of Satan....though only slightly LESS cartoonish....heheh.

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 7:50pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 08/09/2007 @ 8:02pm

See, here's what I love about that.

I never said there "was no God"....I simply disagree with YOUR version of "God".

But given your subjective view that all views of God OTHER than yours are "denials of God"....logically, I must be denying "God".

Re-read what I wrote to SRJ in Posted by MASK 08/09/2007 @ 7:17pm.

Posted by Mask at 08/09/2007 @ 8:05pm
Posted by MASK 08/09/2007 @ 7:17pm

I understand what you are trying to do. I just don't think you are doing it.

Man, theology is a tedious and annoying business. It's almost enough to make me a non-believer. Grace of God and all that.

Oh, and the Tao that can be talked about by LVL or anyone else is not the Tao. Substitute God, and you have the idea. Moving along now.

Posted by srjenkins at 08/09/2007 @ 10:53pm
"It is for that reason that God gave Pastors/Teachers to "rightly divide the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2:15"

Pastor Larry--what about when 2 pastors "rightly divide" the word differently? How do we know that certain words of men written 2000 years ago are divine, but others are not? Why can't we just rely on the actual (simple to understand but hard to follow) words of Jesus?

Posted by rayn at 08/10/2007 @ 06:52am
OF LATE, I'VE BEEN STUDYING MAINLY BUMPER STICKERS...

Posted by W_M_BEAR 08/09/2007 @ 2:21pm

How about :" Militant Atheist, I don't know, and NEITHER DO YOU!"

Posted by crabwalk at 08/10/2007 @ 07:10am
Posted by SRJENKINS 08/09/2007 @ 10:53pm

Fine. I'm just not sure why you think that. Take a cartoonish set of characters, a cheap melodrama, and a plot-line more simplistic than your average Classic Star Trek episode....and you don't get much logic from it. THAT is what the "End Times/Rapture/Left Behind" Crowd are coming up with.

Posted by Mask at 08/10/2007 @ 09:15am
LvLiberty-My overall views are consistent with Taoist teachings.Just because I say that the government is capable of doing something doesn't mean that I want them to do it.Ideally I prefer a tiny government,but times have changed since those early Taoist writings and people can't hunt,fish,and live off of a small farm anymore.According to Taoist teachings this ideal small government can only be effective if the leader(s)are one with virtue and Tao which is a rare thing with politicians so I have to live in reality.Taoism doesn't teach that nothing is knowable.It teaches that one can know all once one becomes nothing.I was a Christian until 2001 so this Spiritual quest into non Christianity is new and my ideas are still growing and forming and I study more than just Taoism.The reason I was attracted to Taoism is because it's view of God is similar to the one I've always had and I like the connection to nature that Taoism teaches.That's,also why I've studied Native American beliefs.My quest began as a search for Jesus so I started with Judaism and have worked my way to Taoism and Tibetan Buddhism.

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/10/2007 @ 10:28am
My quest began as a search for Jesus so I started with Judaism and have worked my way to Taoism and Tibetan Buddhism.

say whaaat?

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/10/2007 @ 11:32am
it must be remembered that judaism of the time of Christ was very different from judaism of our time. that faith underwent a great change around 300 AD.

research, research, research

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/10/2007 @ 11:35am
Ahhh, big deal, it won't be long till a couple of these OSU guys are caught having gay sex, and the whole operation will crumble like Team Murpshy!!

Posted by mrbgoode at 08/10/2007 @ 12:12pm
JR-I spent ten to twelve hours a day for about three years studying Judaism and Jewish mysticism in particular.I see no reason why a search for the real Jesus would not lead one to study Taoism or Buddhism.The gospels provide little information about the real Jesus.All the gospels contain is a handful of teachings that are not expounded upon.Taoism contains the teachings of Jesus,but they are expounded upon.My ultimate goal is to be even closer to the God of my experience and so right now I'm studying different beliefs in order to see what they have in common and have found that doing that does help me feel much closer to the God of my experience..

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/10/2007 @ 12:25pm
nobody, you misunderstood. I am amazed that you would look for Jesus by studying judaism. it's like looking for a tuxedo in a nudist colony.

I encourage any kind of study, and I'm sure yours was and is rewarding.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/10/2007 @ 12:34pm
JR-I figured that since Jesus was supposed to be a Jew then studying Jewish beliefs at that time would be beneficial and fell in love with Jewish mysticism,but I didn't want to be restricted to looking at mysticism from just the Jewish point of view so from there I ventured into Native American beliefs and then to Taoism and Buddhism.I love Taoism.My studies have been very rewarding.I've never been happier or more at peace.

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/10/2007 @ 1:20pm
you realize of course that the Kabballah came about 1300 years later than Christ.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/10/2007 @ 1:29pm
Posted by MRBGOODE 08/10/2007 @ 12:12pm

Don't ask...

Tao-n't tell...

Posted by crabwalk at 08/10/2007 @ 2:23pm
Who would Pooh bomb?

Maybe a hephelump, Are they part of the jihadist menace?

Posted by crabwalk at 08/10/2007 @ 2:26pm
JR-Yes.I did know that about Cabala,but did discover that during the time of Jesus there were various Spiritual movements going on because of the mixture of people who were in the area at the time and because people were seeking meaning while being a conquered people.My studies took me beyond my search for the real Jesus to being a mystical quest.

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/10/2007 @ 3:47pm
This article should be titled "A Fat Sack of Lies Brought to You By Max Blumenthal."

Posted by jinxmchue at 08/10/2007 @ 4:03pm
nobody, yes, one of which being the Essenes. much of what we now know is due to the discovery and dissemination of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Posted by johannesrolf at 08/10/2007 @ 7:04pm
Posted by JINXMCHUE 08/10/2007 @ 4:03pm |

Is that YOU, Kirk Cameron?

heheh

Posted by Mask at 08/10/2007 @ 8:18pm
"Well, your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore, they're already overcrowded from your dirty little war. Now Jesus don't like killin', no matter what the reason's for. and your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore."-John Prine. 'Nuff said.

Posted by apraxis at 08/10/2007 @ 8:47pm
OK, getting back to the topic at hand:

Have any of you people actually played Left Behind: Eternal Forces? It's a pretty half-assed real-time strategy game that isn't any good. The UI sucks, as well as the unit AI, and the pathfinding in the game is terrible. As a game experience, it blows on every level, which completely undermines any religious message it tries to impart. Oh, and the religious message? Totally over the top. You'd have to be a complete idiot to buy into it (which I suspect is why they're trying to give copies of this game away for free at this point - no one will buy it). I'd be surprised if this converted anyone to Christianity. I understand getting angry at this for the principle of it, and that's fine, but I doubt we have to worry that this game will speak to anyone but the converted. And even then, I'm pretty sure the converted will have a horrible time with this game.

Seriously, if the Nation is going to cover the state of gaming, you really need to get a gamer to report on this stuff. I can only imagine how you guys would overreact/blow your top if the troops were sent free copies of Assassin's Creed.

Posted by firebrand at 08/11/2007 @ 12:19am
For God so loved the world...

Posted by starwheel at 08/11/2007 @ 6:17pm
The growth of the radical right and the evangelical Christians has found a home in the military. Each clings to absolutes in a changing and frightening world. History indicates that under such existential anxiety, groups turn to radical, primitive belief systems which are essentially delusional. The political climate turns toward fascism. Philix the cat

Posted by philix at 08/12/2007 @ 01:05am
If anyone within the DOD has in fact authorized the government-sponsored mass shipment of Christian religious texts to soldiers within the Iraq theater of operations, including Arabic-language text, with the attendant endorsement that these books are "one of the most powerful evangelism tools worldwide", then the DOD official(s) in question is/are quite obviously encouraging and enabling soldiers to evangelize Iraqis, and thus indisputably acting in flagrant violation of US Central Command General Order No. 1B [img.slate.com], paragraph 2.k, which renders "proselytizing of any religion, faith, or practice" a criminal offense prosecutable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. This is a big deal and someone should pursue it.

Posted by satyr9us at 08/12/2007 @ 01:06am
Posted by MASK 08/10/2007 @ 8:18pm

No, it's someone who has actually played the game instead of mindlessly swallowing the lies about it.

Posted by jinxmchue at 08/12/2007 @ 02:17am
so much for seperation of church and state. the imperial presidency rules again. what a shame. (where's that freedom from religion foundation membership renewal i almost threw away?)

Posted by steve west at 08/12/2007 @ 2:09pm
Posted by JINXMCHUE 08/12/2007 @ 02:17am

Why?

Posted by Mask at 08/12/2007 @ 6:56pm
It takes a nude to make a tuxedo...

But that notwithstanding, a Pentagon that views world events through an apocalyptic lens is more in line with the religious governments of Islamic countries and not America. That this entertainment troupe is on an evangelical "crusade" in Iraq portrays the difference between intellect ruled by superstition and intelligence. MLK's famous words "We have nothing to fear except fear itself" are applicable here. Quit fearing the end and demons, and just live your life. To me, all these guys are showing is a lack of faith in spirit -- if you truly believe there is redeeming power of [place your name for the Unknowable here], then, why not live a humble, quiet with no fear for "the end". Why worry? -- your faith will see you through.

Another version of this delusion is the Evolution vs. Creationism debate. If you have faith in your way, it doesn't matter how we were created or evolved (or, whatever -- came here as space aliens, etc.). To rail on such things shows that you are trying prove the Spiritual (your faith) through the Material (according to Jesus, "mammon") which is impossible. O, ye evangelicals of little faith, quit trying to prove your faith, and just live it!

Something about Love God with All Your Heart, and, Love Your Neighbor as Yourself comes to mind about how to Live Faith.

Posted by mouselion at 08/13/2007 @ 09:40am
Posted by MASK 08/12/2007 @ 6:56pm

Why what? Asking "why" makes no sense in response to my previous post.

Posted by jinxmchue at 08/13/2007 @ 10:32am

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Kill Or Convert, Brought To You By the Pentagon

posted by max on 08/07/2007 @ 8:40pm

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Kill Or Convert, Brought To You By the Pentagon

posted by max on 08/07/2007 @ 8:40pm

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Ari Melber (Posts | Bio)

Ari Berman (Posts | Bio)

Betsy Reed (Posts | Bio)

Christopher Hayes (Posts | Bio)

Dave Zirin (Posts | Bio)

D.D. Guttenplan (Posts | Bio)

Emily Douglas (Posts | Bio)

Esther Kaplan (Posts | Bio)

Eyal Press (Posts | Bio)

Jon Wiener (Posts | Bio)

Laura Flanders (Posts | Bio)

Leslie Savan (Posts | Bio)

Maria Margaronis (Posts | Bio)

Melissa Harris-Lacewell (Posts | Bio)

Richard Kim (Posts | Bio)

Roane Carey (Posts | Bio)

Zephyr Teachout (Posts | Bio)

Archives

» The Beat

» Editor's Cut

» The Notion

» The Dreyfuss Report

» Act Now!

» Altercation