A New Middle East Arms Race

The Bush Administration has a solution to the escalating arms race in the Middle East: sell more arms.

Under an Administration proposal, Saudi Arabia will get $20 billion of satellite-guided bombs, fighter jet upgrades and new navy ships over ten years to counteract Iran. Israel will get $30 billion over the same period to balance Saudi Arabia, a 43 percent increase compared to the last decade. Not to be left out, Egypt will receive $13 billion. Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates have also been promised a piece of the pie.

In the latest US-backed arms bonanza, everyone's a winner!

The pact with the Kingdom of Saud--home to 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers, 45 percent of foreign fighters in Iraq and birthplace of Al Qaeda--in particular has prompted resistance inside Congress and human rights organizations.

Representatives Anthony Weiner and Jerry Nadler introduced a plan to block the deal on the steps of the Saudi consulate in New York City on Saturday. "We should remember that the high tech arms we gave to the Shah of Iran ended up in the Ayatollah Khomeini's hands," Nadler said. "The same thing could end up happening in Saudi Arabia."

If the US withdraws from Iraq, the Saudi royal family has pledged to arm Sunni military leaders and create new Sunni militias. An advisor to the Saudi government admitted in a November op-ed that Saudi intervention in Iraq "could spark a regional war."

In other words, the weapons the US is proposing to sell to the kingdom could likely end up in the hands of the very people we are currently targeting in Iraq.

Don't forget this picture from 1983 of a certain American official shaking hands with a certain ally-turned-dictator in Baghdad. If only Donald Rumsfeld were still around...

Comments (79)

1. Maybe it's what it appears....but could also be part of the turning the screws a bit tighter on Iran without providing the Saudis anything close to what has been `advertised'! Geopolitics.....are we sure this type of `gamesmanship' ought to be fully public/transparent or best left behind closed-door deliberations????

   Posted by Happy at 07/30/2007 @ 4:35pm

2. Despite Nadler and Weiner....I'll bet this passes the Congress.

   To keep the Saudis "allies", even mainstream Dems will support allowing them this deal, since if we lose them to Russian or Chinese arms deals, we lose ALL leverage in the ME.

   Posted by Mask at 07/30/2007 @ 4:40pm

3. To keep the Saudis "allies", even mainstream Dems will support allowing them this deal, since if we lose them to Russian or Chinese arms deals, we lose ALL leverage in the ME.

   Posted by MASK

   Not to mention lucrative sales for US corporations.

   Posted by mtspence05 at 07/30/2007 @ 4:44pm

4. Not to mention lucrative sales for US corporations.

   Posted by MTSPENCE05 07/30/2007 @ 4:44pm |

   Well, Empt, ya got a choice. You can let Lockheed-Martin get the contracts and raise the US corporate tax on them....

   or let the Russian or Chinese fighter jet guys get the contracts and get nothing in taxes from them.

   I don't like it...but that's the only choice, because the Saudis want the jets and SOMEBODY is going to sell them to them....maybe even the French.

   Posted by Mask at 07/30/2007 @ 4:51pm

5. And all of those long range weapons the peace loving nuke energy searching folks over at Paradise seeking Iran is buying from the Russians...thank God there are no corporations making a profit on these in Russia...whew!! we are safer since no corporations there aren't humping the working class ....think the Russians care about arms in the ME?

   Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 4:51pm

6. Nothing new here, sadly. USA Number 1!.......in worldwide arms sales.

   Basically, a smaller scale version of MAD in the nuclear realm, and actually much deadlier to global human populations thus far.

   The interesting question raised by the piece is whether or not assurances were issued to the Saudis that we are in Iraq for the long haul --no matter what any politician might promise-- in exchange for a Saudi pledge to cease arming the Sunnis, or perhaps some other tit-for-tat.

   Posted by b_kool_66 at 07/30/2007 @ 4:57pm

7. How much of these arms will be paid for with US foreign aid to Israel and Egypt? Socialize the costs, privatize the profit.

   Posted by mtspence05 at 07/30/2007 @ 4:58pm

8. "...maybe even the French.

   Posted by MASK 07/30/2007 @ 4:51pm

   But, but, but I thought all the French cared abourt was universal health care and peace in the ME..no war support on anything that might involve war in the ME, especially Iraq...more weapons in the area couldn't affect Iraq could it, if the French sold something there?

   They wouldn't do that..would they?

   Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 4:59pm

9. I should have said, more accurately, "aiding" the Sunnis although it would not be surprising if the Saudis were indeed arming the Sunnis.

   Posted by b_kool_66 at 07/30/2007 @ 4:59pm

10. Follow the money!

    This is being pushed by US weapons manufacturers, and has little to do with geopolitics.

    The Saudis are not going to fight Iran, and at most would assist Sunnis in Iraq if the Shias get out of control after we leave.

    Since it is unlikely that US forces will completely withdraw and will be redeployed to prevent Iran from invading, this is simply a business deal with the Sauds, and Israel was given a piece to keep AIPAC from nixing the deal.

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/30/2007 @ 5:01pm

11. How many Saudi pilots failed to report after Saddam invaded Kuwait?

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/30/2007 @ 5:04pm

12. We are building the largest American military base in the world and the largest Embassy in Iraq...any of you guys think any Dem president is leaving Iraq...you are surely in the kook section...we are there for the long term...until they are out of oil, Islamic nuts, or both...

    TRhis is a long term deal and everyone knows it...this we are "re deploying"(to the Baghdad American air base 20 miles away). We are NOT leaving and comming home...this is just election election fodder to placate the loon section...

    We went to Iraq for the long term and to institute a long term change in that area...we ain't leaving..

    Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 5:05pm

13. They will all vote precisely the way AIPAC wants them to. When this sale goes forward, you'll have to reconcile the true nature of the relationship between Saudi Arabia and Israel, and where the quid pro quo fits in - and to whose benefit. AIPAC will put on a good show of protest - but if it goes forward, it is with their blessing.

    This government is completely controlled by Israel, lock stock and gun barrel.

    Tell me again that one about the 19 Arab hijackers...and why they are still alive?

    Nothing is as it appears.

    Posted by plunger at 07/30/2007 @ 5:11pm

14. We went to Iraq for the long term and to institute a long term change in that area...we ain't leaving..

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH

    Yeah, and it's ignoramuses like you that believe the US can force any kind of changes on to the ME. Only "loons" and "kooks" are stupid enough to really believe such nonsense. It's all going to end up blowing up, costing a hell of a lot more American lives. But, of course, it won't be people like you fighting, anymore than it was in Vietnam.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/30/2007 @ 5:11pm

15. http://www.lookingglassnews.org/viewstory.php?storyid=6427

    Mossad: RSA Security & Ptech Run US Govt Computers Posted in the database on Monday, June 19th, 2006 @ 12:41:33 MST (38 views) by Christopher Bollyn American Free Press

    Photo: Amit Yoran, the Israeli "Cyber Security Czar" appointed by President George W. Bush in 2003. Yoran has held various positions since the 1990s in which he oversaw computer security for the Dept. of Defense computers.

    The most critical computer and communication networks used by the U.S. government and military are secured by encryption software written by an Israeli "code breaker" tied to an Israeli state-run scientific institution.

    The National Security Agency (NSA), the U.S. intelligence agency with the mandate to protect government and military computer networks and provide secure communications for all branches of the U.S. government uses security software written by an Israeli code breaker whose home office is located at the Weizmann Institute in Israel.

    A Bedford, Massachusetts-based company called RSA Security, Inc. issued a press release on March 28, 2006, which revealed that the NSA would be using its security software:

    "U.S. Department of Defense Agency Selects RSA Security Encryption Software" was the headline of the company's press release which announced that the National Security Agency had selected its encryption software to be used in the agency's "classified communications project.

    RSA stands for the names of the founders of the company: Ronald L. Rivest, Adi Shamir, and Leonard M. Adleman. Adi Shamir, the lead theoretician, is an Israeli citizen and a professor at the Weizmann Institute, a scientific institution tied to the Israeli defense establishment.

    "My main area of research is cryptography – making and breaking codes," Shamir's webpage at the Weizmann Institute says. "It is motivated by the explosive growth of computer networks and wireless communication. Without cryptographic protection, confidential information can be exposed to eavesdroppers, modified by hackers, or forged by criminals."

    The NSA/Central Security Service defines itself as America's cryptologic organization, which "coordinates, directs, and performs highly specialized activities to protect U.S. government information systems and produce foreign signals intelligence information."

    The fact that the federal intelligence agency responsible for protecting the most critical computer systems and communications networks used by all branches of the U.S. government and military is using Israeli-made encryption software should come as no surprise. The RSA press release is just the icing on the cake; the keys to the most critical computer networks in the United States have long been held in Israeli hands.

    AFP inquired with the NSA about its use of Israeli-made security software for classified communications projects and asked why such outsourcing was not seen as a national security threat. Why is "America's cryptologic organization" using Israeli encryption codes?

    NSA spokesman Ken White said that the agency is "researching" the matter and would respond in the coming week.

    American Free Press has previously revealed that scores of "security software" companies – spawned and funded by the Mossad, the Israeli military intelligence agency – have proliferated in the United States.

    The "security" software products of many of these usually short-lived Israeli-run companies have been integrated into the computer products which are provided to the U.S. government by leading suppliers such as Unisys.

    Unisys integrated Israeli security software, provided by the Israel-based Check Point Software Technologies and Eurekify, into its own software, so that Israeli software, written by Mossad-linked companies, now "secures" the most sensitive computers in the U.S. government and commercial sector.

    The Mossad-spawned computer security firms typically have a main office based in the U.S. while their research and development is done in Israel.

    The Mossad start-up firms usually have short lives before they are acquired for exaggerated sums of money by a larger company, enriching their Israeli owners in the process and integrating the Israeli directors and their Mossad-produced software into the parent company.

    RSA, for example, an older security software company, acquired an Israeli-run security software company, named Cyota, at the end of 2005 for $145 million.

    In January 2005, Cyota, "the leading provider of online security and anti-fraud solutions for financial institutions" had announced that "security expert" Amit Yoran, had joined the company's board of directors.

    Prior to becoming a director at Cyota, Yoran, a 34-year old Israeli, had already been the national "Cyber Czar," having served as director of the Department of Homeland Security's National Cyber Security Division.

    Yoran had been appointed "Cyber Czar" at age 32 by President George W. Bush in September 2003.

    Before joining DHS, Yoran had been vice president for worldwide managed security services at Symantec. Prior to that, he had been the founder, president and CEO of Riptech, Inc., an information security management and monitoring firm, which Symantec acquired in 2002 for $145 million.

    Yoran and his brother Naftali Elad Yoran are graduates of the U.S. Military Academy at Westpoint. Elad graduated in 1991 and Amit in 1993. Along with their brother Dov, the Yoran brothers are key players in the security software market. Amit has also held critical positions in the U.S. government overseeing computer security for the very systems that apparently failed on 9/11.

    Before founding Riptech in 1998, Yoran directed the vulnerability- assessment program within the computer emergency response team at the US Department of Defense.

    Yoran previously served as an officer in the United States Air Force as the Director of Vulnerability Programs for the Department of Defense's Computer Emergency Response Team and in support of the Assistant Secretary of Defense's Office.

    In June 2005, Yoran joined the board of directors of Guardium, Inc., another Mossad-spawned "provider of database security solutions" based in Waltham, Massachusetts.

    Guardium is linked with Ptech, an apparent Mossad "cut out" computer security company linked with the 9/11 attacks.

    Ptech, a computer software company in Quincy, Mass., was supposedly a small start-up company founded by a Lebanese Muslim and funded by a Saudi millionaire.

    Yet Ptech's clients included all the key federal governmental agencies, including the U.S. Army, the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Naval Air Command, Congress, the Department of Energy, the Federal Aviation Administration, the Internal Revenue Service, NATO, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Secret Service and even the White House.

    The marketing manager at Ptech, Inc. when the company started in the mid-1990s, however, was not a Muslim or an Arab, but an American Jewish lawyer named Michael S. Goff who had suddenly quit his law firm for no apparent reason and joined the Arab-run start-up company.

    Goff was the company's information systems manager and had single-handedly managed the company's marketing and "all procurement" of software, systems and peripherals. He also trained the employees. Goff was obviously the key person at Ptech.

    In the wake of 9/11, during the Citizens' Commission hearings in New York, Indira Singh, a consultant who had worked on a Defense Advanced Research Project, pointed to Ptech and MITRE Corp. being involved in computer "interoperability issues" between the FAA and NORAD.

    At this time Ptech's ties to Arabs was the focus, and Goff was out of the picture.

    "Ptech was with MITRE Corporation in the basement of the FAA for two years prior to 9/11," Singh said. "Their specific job is to look at interoperability issues the FAA had with NORAD and the Air Force in the case of an emergency. If anyone was in a position to know that the FAA – that there was a window of opportunity or to insert software or to change anything – it would have been Ptech along with MITRE."

    The Mossad-run Guardium company is linked with Ptech through Goff Communications, the Holliston, Mass.-based public relations firm previously run by Michael S. Goff and his wife Marcia, which represents Guardium. Since being exposed in AFP in 2005, however, Michael's name no longer appears on the company website.

    Although he and his brother reportedly grew up in Pound Ridge, New York during the 1970s and 1980s, the heads of the Jewish community told AFP that they had never heard of him. One said that she had conducted a survey of the Jews living in the small village of Pound Ridge in the 1970s and she would have remembered if a wealthy Israeli family named Yoran had been found.

    Why did the locals in Pound Ridge NOT remember the Yorans?

    Probably because they were NOT in Pound Ridge - but in Israel. The Pound Ridge address was used to give the appearance that the Yorans were Americans. I spoke with Elad and he has a distinctive Israeli accent - not what you would expect for a guy who grew up in a posh Yankee village.

    So who are the Yorans? Who are their parents and why did they come to the United States? To raise a couple high-level moles to infiltrate the most sensitive U.S. computer networks? How could they have lived for 20 years in Pound Ridge and NOT be remembered.

    Posted by plunger at 07/30/2007 @ 5:12pm

16. U.S. Nuclear Weapons Being "Guarded" by Israel American supporters of Israel were delighted to learn that an Israeli company, Magal Security Systems--owned in part by the government of Israel--is in charge of security for the most sensitive nuclear power and weapons storage facilities in the United States.

    The largest perimeter security company in the world, Magal started out as a division of Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI)--which was owned in part by the government of Israel. In recent years, however, Magal evolved into a publicly-traded company, although IAI (and thus the government of Israel) still holds a substantial share in the highly successful firm.

    What all of this means is that the government of Israel will actually have control over the security of America's nuclear weapons.

    Supporters of Israel say that this is a splendid idea, since Israel is said to be perhaps America's closest ally on the face of the planet. However, there are some critics who question the propriety of America's super-sensitive nuclear security being in the hands of any foreign nation, particularly Israel which, even today, officially denies that it is engaged in the production of nuclear arms.

    Be that as it may, however, Magal's global interests are quite broad-ranging. Having secured 90 percent of Israel's borders through a wide-ranging array of super-modern "space age" technology, Magal has now branched out internationally. Not only does Magal provide security for American nuclear facilities, but it also does likewise for most major nuclear facilities in Western Europe and Asia.

    In addition, the Israeli firm also provides security for Chicago's O'Hare Airport and, for the last fifteen years, has kept watch on the Queen of England's famed Buckingham Palace in London. What's more, Magal provides security for 90% of the American prisons that utilize electronic systems.

    Magal brags that its other clients around the globe include: borders, airports, industrial sites, communication centers, military installations, correctional facilities, government agencies, VIP estates and residences, commercial buildings and storage yards. There is hardly a major country or major enterprise that does not have Magal's security specialists keeping a close watch on their activities.

    Clearly, Magal is no small enterprise. While 27% of its total sales are in the Israeli market, its largest market is in North America, which currently accounts for 35% of its sales.

    However, Magal's American outreach is expected to increase substantially, especially now that firm has set up a Washington, D.C. office which will promote its products to federal agencies and to the members of Congress who provide funding for federally-supervised security projects across the country at all levels: local, state and national.

    And with current U.S. Homeland Security Chief, Michael Chertoff, not only a strong supporter of Israel but also the son of a woman who has strong Israeli ties--even including service with El Al, the national airline of Israel--Magal, owned in party by Israeli Aircraft Industries--will be a clear-cut favorite in the eyes of the power brokers in official Washington who have the power to grant lucrative security contracts.

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/nukesguardedbyisrael.html

    Posted by plunger at 07/30/2007 @ 5:13pm

17. Urban myth, my ass!

    More proof of conspiracies

    BY JOHN SUGG

    Federal Justice Department flaks have denounced reports of a massive Israeli spy ring as an "urban myth" -- despite solid reporting by Fox News...

    60-page Drug Enforcement Administration document detailing the apparent spying by Israeli "art students" who tried to gain access to sensitive federal buildings, military bases and intelligence officials' homes.

    http://cryptome.org/dea-il-spy.htm

    http://cryptome.org/fox-il-spy.htm

    Lewinsky herself said that in March 1997, when she was with the president in his office, he told her he suspected that a foreign embassy had been tapping his line.

    It's going to be hard, however, to make Monica Lewinsky's testimony that President Bill Clinton warned her that a foreign embassy was listening to their telephone sex go permanently down the memory hole. This is particularly true after the whole sordid Monica story hit the U.S. media fan just hours after then-Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu arrived in the U.S. national capital vowing "to set Washington on fire" back in 1998.

    Now we know where he got the matches.

    http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/072000/0007043.html

    Spies Tap Police and Government Phones

    In the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist attack, the FBI has stumbled on the largest espionage ring ever discovered inside the United States. The U.S. Justice Department is now holding nearly 100 Israeli citizens with direct ties to foreign military, criminal and intelligence services.

    The spy ring reportedly includes employees of two Israeli-owned companies that currently perform almost all the official wiretaps for U.S. local, state and federal law enforcement.

    The U.S. law enforcement wiretaps, authorized by the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA), appear to have been breached by organized crime units working inside Israel and the Israeli intelligence service, Mossad.

    Global Spy and Crime Network

    Israeli Company Provides U.S. Wiretaps

    One company reported to be under investigation is Comverse Infosys.

    U.S. National Security Compromised

    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/12/18/224826.shtml

    Posted by plunger at 07/30/2007 @ 5:14pm

18. ISRAELI AGENT – Spy Ariel Weinmann charged with ESPIONAGE

    Another Spy Story Suppressed to Save Israel Posted: 2006/08/16 From: Mathaba

    Well guess what reader, the United States government has done it again, they've hidden another Jewish spy from the American public, but this time the cats out of the bag, someone leaked the details and now we find that another Jewish American, this time a Navy Petty Officer by the name of Ariel J. Weinmann has been arrested for passing along Top Secret information related to National Security to the Israeli government.

    In Weinmann's case, one can bet the information he stole was of a highly classified nature, you see Weinmann was stationed on an American nuclear submarine, the USS Albuquerque.

    The Navy buried Weimann's case in the hope that the American people would never find out about him and what he did, just as the government did with Asher Karni, an Israeli Jew arrested at Denver International Airport on January 2, 2004 for having sold [past tense] more than sixty nuclear weapon detonators to Pakistan.

    Many people reading this will automatically assume that the Navy was keeping the case mum so as not to let the Israeli's know they had caught Weinmann, but this isn't the case, the Israeli's probably knew before the Navy that Weinmann had been arrested, the Navy was keeping the case quiet in an effort to keep the American people in the dark, just as the United States government did with more than one hundred and fifty Israeli's after they had been arrested for espionage just after 9-11, and the five Israeli's that were arrested on 9-11 as a result of being witnessed by several people laughing while filming the impact of the airliners into the twin towers and clapping one another on the back in a congratulatory manner.

    His case is notable as an espionage case where the Navy and trial court officials have denied access to basic information, including the court docket.

    http://www.mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=541784

    .

    US Submariner, Ariel Joseph Weinmann, stole top secret nuclear submarine data and passed it on to a foreign country, initially declared by the Jeruselum Post to be Israel.

    Israel already owns and operates one submarine retrofitted to fire nuclear-tipped cruise missiles (obtained from US) and has two more similar subs on order.

    Perhaps what they needed was the targeting information pertaining to the targets in Iran identified by the US government?

    This OUGHT TO BE a gigantic story - as big or bigger than the Jonathan Pollar Spy scandal.

    Remember the (totally fake) terror scare recently in London. That ruse was specifically designed to ensure that all TV coverage featured a "TERROR IN THE SKIES" banner headline - while two negative stories about ISRAELI SPYING IN THE US slipped out under the radar.

    At the height of the "Liquid Bomb Threat" hysteria, one story came out that AIPAC had been denied in its efforts to have the Franklin/AIPAC spying case thrown out of court. That case links to the Scooter Libby case. It's all about Israel.

    Hard on the heels of that report came CNN's Barbara Starr (a CIA/DOD asset) with the story that "Ariel Joseph Weinmann" had been arrested SEVERAL MONTHS EARLIER on charges of espionage on behalf of a foreign country - which she managed to find an anonymous source to tell her was "Russia."

    I laughed out loud when she said it.

    WAKE UP PEOPLE.

    More of our state secrets have been lost to Israel than all other countries combined.

    Espionage is punishable by death.

    Posted by plunger at 07/30/2007 @ 5:15pm

19. "Only "loons" and "kooks" are stupid enough to really believe such nonsense."

    We are never leaving Iraq..not in the manner all the people on the Nation want..and this is the home of the far left..if President Hillary "redeploys", it will be to our new base in the suburbs..20 miles from Baghdad...

    ....and if you think other wise then you are a "loon and a kook", although, arriving at the conclusion that robbinbg a bank or two isn't "looney or kooky", well, this may place you at row 1 seat 1 in the kook section, a special seat with your name printed in sparkle lettering, with the propellar on your hat spinning at near leviation speeds(a red one).

    Take that to the bank,..er

    Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 5:19pm

20. JOHN MAASCH 07/30/2007 @ 5:05pm

    Since you're a successful businessman, and we're kooks, enlighten us with how this is good for America's bottom line. Make sure sure you factor in the estimated $500 billion in tax dollars we'll end up spending on the "long term change" you mentioned.

    Posted by MyParadigm at 07/30/2007 @ 5:19pm

21. heheh

    Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 5:21pm

22. It's a virtual certainty that we have provided assurances to the Saudi royals that we will prop them up in the case of any insurrection by the Arab "street".

    Our prolonged military presence in Iraq provides a significant impetus for just such an uprising in a Saudi Arabia that possesses a significant level of animus toward their leadership.

    The $63 billion in combined contracts to those three nation's is, at the very least, a strong indication that our "shadow government" --i.e. the Defense establishment-- has promised to maintain the status quo in the region.

    It's this status quo that will not be sustainable for the long haul. Something is going to give at some point down the road.

    In the meantime we just keep adding more weight to the lid on an increasingly more furiously boiling cauldron.

    It truly is a maddening state of affairs.

    Posted by b_kool_66 at 07/30/2007 @ 5:22pm

23. "The Saudis are not going to fight Iran, and at most would assist Sunnis in Iraq if the Shias get out of control after we leave."

    when the US leaves, the Shia will likely again be taking their orders from their Sunni masters, as they have for many years.

    even with a quarter of a million US troops, the puppet gov't is not able to secure the country from the largely Sunni "insurgency".

    insurgency incidentally is the wrong word, as it describes a rebellion or revolution. resistance would be a more accurate word, as it is the previous gov't of Iraq that makes up the resistance. what are they resisting? the occupation of their country, the usurpation of their gov't and the looting of their oil.

    you and I would do the same, were we invaded by a foreign super power, that hubristically thinks it can order the world according to its wishes.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/30/2007 @ 5:25pm

24. Posted by JOHN MAASCH

    Actually it was 5 banks.

    I understand that we cannot just pull out of Iraq. That's why we never should have went in to begin with. Any fool with only an elementary knowledge of the ME and Iraq understood what was gonna happen. The only choice now is to stay, occupy Iraq, adding more fuel to the fire, or the US can actively negotiate with the regional powers and reach some sort of peace, stability. Either way it's not your ass on the line over there. No, it's the war dodging cowards that have always been so gung ho on this idiotic adventure in Iraq. You, Cheney, and Jr--all war dodgers.

    Can you not come up with something better than the little cap with a propeller thing? Is that really the best your limited little mind can come up with?

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/30/2007 @ 5:30pm

25. "Since you're a successful businessman, and we're kooks, enlighten us with how this is good for America's bottom line. Make sure sure you factor in the estimated $500 billion in tax dollars we'll end up spending on the "long term change" you mentioned.

    Posted by MYPARADIGM 07/30/2007 @ 5:19pm

    I am not a successfull businessman as of yet, but I am working on it..never ends...I procrastinate way to much..

    I digress..

    As far as Americas bottom line, there is none in a senario such as this, you see, despite the belief here that the US imperialist are the blame for all evils and errors in the world..I think you might want to look at the Chinese and the Russians to see how they view the world...and how it would look if we just "went home" and let them solve the issues of the day in the ME and elsewhere on their terms and styles..(would they listen to the ALGORES of the world? Ya, think?

    We will never just sit and be an observer from the sidelines and just "see what happens next"..we are an activist country where our interest lies, both dems and repubs..this has been bipartisan since the creation of the nation...the Russians have anounced sales of long range jets to Iran, they are also building nuclear reacters there...I assume we have known this for a long time, as they know we supply the Saudis, et al....I also assume that anyone drawing a breath of air also knows this stuff is not for defence or running all those xtra Ramadan lights on the fasting table...

    As far as $500 million in tax...we will spend alot more than that when Iran decides it can win and takes a shot at Israel.....

    But have no fear..if we just leave..everything will be ok..right? I read that by 2030 75% of the entire federal budget will be entitlements, so rejoice!!! a few more years after that, with all of you paying(not me) 80% plus tax rates...it won't be long and we will no longer be influencing the world in any way...at all...in fact, we will be broke..giving all of us free things we used to work and get for ourselves..

    so be happy..you are winning!!!

    Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 5:35pm

26. Posted by JOHN MAASCH

    Ever heard of "imperial overreach"? Oh, that's right, you don't read.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/30/2007 @ 5:40pm

27. "Can you not come up with something better than the little cap with a propeller thing? Is that really the best your limited little mind can come up with?

    Posted by MTSPENCE05 07/30/2007 @ 5:30pm "

    It is not a cap..

    Its a hat with a propellar spinning on top when ever another "good idea" comes up from under the hat of the wearer...the simple heat generated from the thought process cause the air to heat and rise...more ideas=more heat, therfore,more air rising faster and faster the spinning and...up you go...

    ..bank robbing ideas more than qualify, but MULTIPLE Banks!! PRICELESS!!!.. earns you the coveted row 1 . Enjoy...you earned it.

    Now..why don't you try a 6th bank...I have a feeling you just haven't had the right people working your plan yet...(kinda like the socialist apologist for why socialism fails everywhere it is even tried, or remotely tried)....

    Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 5:44pm

28. I'm sure your knowledge of socialism is just as inadequate as your understanding of the ME, history, and everything else that doesn't involve peddling Third World wares.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/30/2007 @ 5:48pm

29. "Oh, that's right, you don't read.

    Posted by MTSPENCE05 07/30/2007 @ 5:40pm

    And you can't write....

    "That's why we never should have (gone) went in to(into Iraq) begin with(end with with?). Any fool with only an elementary knowledge of the ME and Iraq understood what was gonna(what might occur) happen."

    I admit to a complete lapse in spelling and typing, have for years, thats why I hire others to do it, as I know my limitations...and obviously you do not.....but you are the bright future of the country..right?..

    ...only 1 more credit before graduation as a teacher? of history? (criminal history? Dillenger, perhaps?)

    I am a victim of public education... and wouldn't turn to you for advice, education, history, common sense, work habits, judgement, intelligence, especially when lookng for people trained to act and think for themselves with a self motivated drive......the list is too long.

    Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 5:53pm

30. And while you talk of China and Russia acting in their national interest, please be sure to note that the US consumes resources all out of proportion to its population. And please explain to all of us loons and kooks why the US has done nothing to address its dependence on oil since the Iranian Revolution in '79, old man. I, myself, spent 5 months in the Persian Gulf in '88 (at no small cost to the US taxpayers) as part of an effort to keep the oil flowing unmolested. What did the big business brains do in the mean time? Did the big brains pursue conservation policies? Did they invest in alternative fuels? No. Hell no. US automakers, with the assistance of their politicians in DC, took advantage of the loop holes in mileage requirements and made a butt load of gas guzzling SUV's. A few years later more Americans went to the ME to kick Saddam out of Kuwait. Was anything done to address the US dependence on foreign oil after the war? No. And now we're stuck in Iraq. Yeah, we need to keep listening to the big brains like yours.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/30/2007 @ 6:00pm

31. "And please explain to all of us loons and kooks why the US has done nothing to address its dependence on oil since the Iranian Revolution in '79, old man. '

    Because it is still the cheapest of all the other options so far...cheaper to drill, find pump, process and ship...it is that simple..

    the only impediments are man made...don't drill here, tax the shit out of it, now ALGORES half truths, environuts anti nuke power...

    there is nothing else to replace it on any level of economics...and more is being found everyday..plus we use it for EVERYTHING and so does everyone else...we stop using it, the rest of the world will not and watch us slowly go out..

    it is that simple...oil is the cheapest source of energy on the planet...

    Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 6:10pm

32. It's cheap? It's costing a lot of American lives. But, of course, for those able to dodge the wars it's no big deal.

    The fallacy of your beliefs are fully exposed. It's fools like you that have been making the decisions for a long time, and the present state of affairs is all your kind's responsibility.

    It's more than sad that fools like you don't really understand your limits. Too bad you can't pay somebody to think for you, old man.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/30/2007 @ 6:16pm

33. Posted by MADLIB 07/30/2007 @ 6:14pm

    Ashamed? No, a work in progress, yes.

    Don't tell me you are chastising me for admited spelling and typing flaws..and Emty homophobic convict..gets a pass from you? why am I surprised....he is one of your lefty home boys...

    I mentioned France, as they have been supporters of Lebanon, Iraq, Iran and others since colonial times..and they have refused to help in the ME on any level unless they sell arms.....or get oil for food...from Saddam..when that cash and oil contracts ran out, they disappered...and castigated the US.

    this is my only point...and as any cynic(sp) will...:)

    Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 6:21pm

34. " It's fools like you that have been making the decisions for a long time,..

    I make my own decisons...the rest of the crap I am stuck complying...

    Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 6:23pm

35. Or who was in charge when a multitude of faulty intelligence (that's the best scenario at that) lead to a war that was nothing more than financial imperialism, and has the U.S. entrenched in the biggest fuck up in its history as a nation?

    I'm dying to know that one.

    Posted by MADLIB 07/30/2007 @ 6:18pm

    The same people you want to entrust with my childrens health care...

    The same people you think will change once a dem is in charge...

    Any thing else?

    Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 6:25pm

36. Please consider that tax dollars don't really fund wars.

    yeah, right. and who funds the deficits? China does.

    we used to pay for our wars. how? with a top tax rate of 90%. I say bring back the top rate of 90%, to pay for the wars in Iraq and Afgh. and the war on terra.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/30/2007 @ 6:25pm

37. Posted by FREIHEIT 07/30/2007 @ 6:21pm | ignore this person

    tell us about the knights of Templar and the Freemasons. you are firmly in Plunger territory here Frei.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/30/2007 @ 6:27pm

38. JR,

    Inflation pays for wars..90% tax rates will kill off the economy today, as those with those funds take flight...I know if I were in that group I certainly would...and then you would be forced to kill off the middle dclass with 50% tax rates(state, fica, medi, fed), which, we already have before the progressives "give" us universal health care..

    Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 6:32pm

39. "yeah, right. and who funds the deficits? China does.

    China has us right where we want them...

    Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 6:32pm

40. Posted by FREIHEIT 07/30/2007 @ 6:37pm | ignore this person

    repeating this old cheese will not cut it. PROVE IT.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/30/2007 @ 6:47pm

41. The Saudis have our country by the nuts 3 different ways:

    Oil - they're the only producer that has the luxury of reducing output if it suits them, hence they control the price and can strangle us and our allies in Europe and Asia.

    Debt - Saudi petrodollars fund Republican borrow-and-spend. If the Saudis decide to invest their dollars elsewhere, our interest rates will spike, our assets will tank and our economy will implode.

    Dollars - If the Saudis ever start accepting Yen or Euros for their oil, the Dollar will not be worth a Peso, thanks to the Repubs' asinine fiscal policy.

    What to do?

    Kick the traitorous Party of Multinational Corporations out of our government.

    Balance the budget as Billy Clinton did, by rescinding a fraction of the Repubs' giveaways to their cronies. And, as Clinton did, bring our economy back to life by cutting taxes on the workers.

    Confront America's number one terrorist enemy, the Saudis, and stop wasting American blood and treasure in country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

    Posted by samcrossett at 07/30/2007 @ 6:53pm

42. The short answer is that post-WWII western European economic policy was so successful because it tapped into a virtuous circle. Trade expansion drove growth, growth drove expanded social insurance programs and real wage levels; expanded social insurance states and real wage levels social peace, social peace allowed inflation to stay low even as output expanded rapidly, rapidly expanding output led to high investment, which further increased growth and created the preconditions for further expansions of international trade.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/30/2007 @ 6:55pm

43. sorry, that was for western europe. my error.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/30/2007 @ 7:02pm

44. "social peace allowed inflation to stay low even as output expanded rapidly, "

    ?

    How is this measurable...kinda like they all feel good so the pie grows?

    Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 7:17pm

45. "And I certainly don't want THEM in charge of anything resembling education. "

    The teachers unions?

    Posted by john maasch at 07/30/2007 @ 7:18pm

46. I have no interest in seeing a Democrat in office? I can't make the point ANY clearer, since half of my posts are bashing the Democratic party.

    Posted by MADLIB 07/30/2007 @ 7:07pm | ignore this person

    clear enough. you wish more of the same?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/30/2007 @ 7:20pm

47. Hey, hey...PLUNGER's back.

    Figured I ran him off last time by re-posting his March 28th "World War-3 and martial law in the USA" prediction!

    heheh

    Posted by Mask at 07/30/2007 @ 7:47pm

48. In case you missed it....

    BLOG | Posted 03/28/2007 @ 8:21pm Buddying Up to Wal-Mart by Liza Featherstone

    Time is up. World War III starts Friday – and it will coincide with conditions inside the US that lead to Martial Law, through either an Anthrax attack or a phony Bird Flu Outbreak. ----Posted by PLUNGER 03/28/2007 @ 10:05pm

    Posted by Mask at 07/30/2007 @ 8:05pm

49. You are incorrect in saying the we used to fund our wars through tax money Johannesrolf. The Fed has simply printed up the money we need, to make it painless and easy for "we the people."

    Posted by FREIHEIT 07/30/2007 @ 6:37pm | ignore this person

    you are going to have to prove this with a citation. I've searched the web, in vain, and am presently searching the Britannica for an answer how the US paid for WW2. they sold a lot of bonds, but how did they pay them back.

    my search does not let you off the hook, however since you made that assertion.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/30/2007 @ 9:05pm

50. Frei, since you claim some knowledge, how much did WW2 cost the US?

    I know the answer.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/30/2007 @ 9:06pm

51. THE CURRENT WAR, HOWEVER, IS LESS THAN 1 PERCENT OF AMERICA'S ANNUAL $13 TRILLION GDP!

    But that is not the relevant number Rio - this is:

    MILITARY EXPENDITURES NOW REPRESENT OVER HALF OF THE US BUDGET AND THE LARGEST DRAW ON OUR TAX DOLLARS!

    But don't take my word for it, you can read it for yourself here: http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

    "Tax and spend" is now the politics of Republicans as they try to satisfy their addiction to military might! How much is enough - 1,000 times the strength of the nearest "enemy"? Do I hear a 2,000 times the strength? Going...going...gone to the defense lobby and their worthless businesses that depends on government handouts to make a buck!

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/31/2007 @ 01:48am

52. Rio,

    Whatever happened to private business and the free market? Are these defense contractors incapable of competing in the private sector - is Airbus kicking Boeing's behind so they have to come crawling to the government for a handout?

    I thought you guys didn't like welfare, especially welfare cheats that bribe people like Congressmen and Senators with "campaign contributions" to get a government handout! What a bunch of sorry saps in the business world - can't cut it in the private market so they run to the government to fund useless and unnecessary projects with tax dollars from working class people who are struggling to make ends meet.

    We need to redefine what a welfare cheat is because what these defense contractors are doing is SHAMEFUL!

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/31/2007 @ 02:02am

53. All the arguments against the "War on Terror"in reality are strictly leftwingnut ideology based!

    Posted by RIO BRAVO 07/31/2007 @ 12:51

    Why does RIO think that 70% of America is "leftwingnut"?!??!

    heheh

    Posted by Mask at 07/31/2007 @ 08:11am

54. THE CURRENT WAR, HOWEVER, IS LESS THAN 1 PERCENT OF AMERICA'S ANNUAL $13 TRILLION GDP!

    this is a lie. the war's cost has been estimated at one trillion dollars. this figure includes the long term care of casualties and most importantly, the cost of debt service, since all that money is borrowed.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/31/2007 @ 09:37am

55. This boneheaded administration is trying to bully Iran with arms for its neighbors? These "tough guys" just aren't capable of learning.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/31/2007 @ 10:36am

56. Posted by MTSPENCE05 07/31/2007 @ 10:36am\

    Again, Empty....the Saudis WANT those arms.

    Do you think if we don't sell them, they won't get them???

    Posted by Mask at 07/31/2007 @ 10:50am

57. The Saudis aren't going to use them. Egypt doesn't need them. Providing Israel with yet more arms only adds fuel to the fire we're fighting.

    With Iraq unstable, the future far from uncertain, do you really think it is a good idea to load the regime in Saudi up on arms? Pull your head out, mary. Besides, the rulers of Saudi are dependent upon the US for support. The Saudis are not going to buy their weapons from China or Russia.

    This idiotic adventure in Iraq has strengthened Iran; there is no getting around it. Putting more arms into a volitile region is not the answer to our problems.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/31/2007 @ 10:57am

58. This boneheaded administration is trying to bully Iran with arms for its neighbors? These "tough guys" just aren't capable of learning.

    And--evidently--you fall under this category, mary.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/31/2007 @ 10:58am

59. ...the war's cost....

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 07/31/2007 @ 09:37am

    On costs of the Iraq as well as other wars......

    There is the perception of money going up in smoke in the form of expended ammo, equipments, etc....In reality (outside of the heartaches of lost/wounded lives), most of the funds are spent inside the US in the form of defense & related contracts to replace/repair equipments, hazardous duty pays for armed forces in combat zones, health/rehab care spent on personnel providing said services, private contractors, etc....

    Only a smal portion of total war funding are `spent' overseas such as for Iraqi security forces and locally or regionally sourced goods and services.

    There are grains of truth in the stimulative effects of war spending on our economy......so long as our economy isn't being bombed to kingdom come! Before anyone shoot the messenger (me), I would never condone waging war where stimulating the economy has any part, however tiny, in the deliberation process!

    Posted by Happy at 07/31/2007 @ 11:10am

60. Posted by MTSPENCE05 07/31/2007 @ 10:58am

    Empty, the Saudis want the arms because they see their Sunni brethren in Iraq getting the shaft, as soon as we pull out (given Iran will back the Shiites).

    Now the Bush Administration IS to blame for this (due to the invasion of Iraq), but it's not trying to "bully Iran by supplying the Saudis".

    It's trying to keep the Saudis on OUR side by supplying WHAT THE SAUDIS WANT.

    It's well and good to blame the Bushites for the things they do....but if we don't sell the arms to the Saudis, they'll use their oil money and buy them from the Russians, Chinese, or even our beloved European allies like France and Germany.

    Try to think a BIT deeper than one inch into the pond.

    Posted by Mask at 07/31/2007 @ 11:13am

61. I find it interesting that Ari Berman keeps his criticism of this arms deal limited to Arab recipients. I wonder if he's concerned that Israel will undoubtedly receive more cluster bombs to maim the indigenous children of the region, and supersonic jets to terrorize the children of Palestine, and bulldozers to make homeless yet more natives of the Holy Land.

    Posted by rtwendt at 07/31/2007 @ 11:15am

62. Try to think a BIT deeper than one inch into the pond.

    Posted by MASK

    Hmmm, so rather than engage Iran in negotiations, rather than start dealing with the mess in Iraq in a realistic manner, the US wants to arm the Saudis with sophisticated weapons that they can turn over to radicalized elements in Iraq. And if the US fails to get serious about a political settlement in Iraq, and refuses to supply the Saudis with sophisticated US weapontry, then the Saudis will buy these weapons from US competitors?

    Try thinking deeper? Just keep digging that hole deeper. (But, of course, it won't be your smug ass stuck in the sand over there for much of your young life, will it?)

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/31/2007 @ 11:23am

63. "Tax and spend" is now the politics of Republicans as they try to satisfy their addiction to military might!

    Posted by METTEYYA 07/31/2007 @ 01:48am

    May I offer a edit suggestion to the above sentence?

    How about "Borrow and spend" is now the politics of Republicans as they try to satisfy their addiction to world domination!

    Shrub cuts taxes to HIS base, the "Have Mores", and will leave paying for is war to us, our kids and our grandkids. Shrub took us into this war based on plans of the Neo-Nut world domination thinkers over at PNAC.

    "That's not the way the world really works anymore. We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality." anonymous Bush aide - believed to be Karl Rove

    Posted by COProgressive at 07/31/2007 @ 11:36am

64. This administration has created a big fire, and rather than put water on the congflagration it wants to throw ordinance into it. Yeah, that's deep thinking alright.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/31/2007 @ 11:37am

65. "the US wants to arm the Saudis with sophisticated weapons that they can turn over to radicalized elements in Iraq. And if the US fails to get serious about a political settlement in Iraq, and refuses to supply the Saudis with sophisticated US weapontry, then the Saudis will buy these weapons from US competitors?" ---Posted by MTSPENCE05 07/31/2007 @ 11:23am

    SO...1. It's that the U.S. WANTS to arm the Saudis, not the SAUDIS want to arm themselves.

    But. 2. But if we DON'T arm the Saudis, they'll just say "okay, no problem...we won't buy anything but American!"

    That your line of thinking, is it?

    Posted by Mask at 07/31/2007 @ 12:15pm

66. FREIHEIT, wants some fun with EGOMANIACESROLF on World War-2?

    Ask him if thinks FDR, Truman, and Churchill were war criminals!

    Posted by Mask at 07/31/2007 @ 4:09pm

67. Frei, more unsupported assertions.

    when did I ever say that the gangsters in the blood house lied on behalf of big oil? I haven't. I have always said that the war was started to insure "re-election.

    that said, if Iraq had no oil, the troops would not be there. the oil law the US is trying to implement in Iraq, does indeed give away a nationalized resource to big oil. and yes they did lie deliberately. a veritable orgy of lies.and they're lying still.

    the financial cost of WW2 was 3.291 trillion.our dollars.

    come back when you can prove something.until then, you are the one who is clueless.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/31/2007 @ 4:31pm

68. total federal expenditure in '45 281 billion. our dollars. who paid for that war? inflation?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/31/2007 @ 4:50pm

69. SO...1. It's that the U.S. WANTS to arm the Saudis, not the SAUDIS want to arm themselves.

    But. 2. But if we DON'T arm the Saudis, they'll just say "okay, no problem...we won't buy anything but American!"

    That your line of thinking, is it?

    Posted by MASK

    Is that what I posted. I just reread what I posted and the two are not alike.

    Rice threw Iran in the same bus with Syria, Al Qaeda and Hezbollah yesterday.

    You just don't get it, do you?

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/31/2007 @ 5:05pm

70. Frei, you were the one who believed that whole Iraq freedom and democracy thing, not me. who is the clueless one?

    your conspiracy rants are comical.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/31/2007 @ 6:23pm

71. Bush:" we have found the WMD"

    how about it Frei? truth?

    how about one from before the war? Saddam has been buying nuclear fuel in africa. truth?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/31/2007 @ 6:27pm

72. Is that what I posted. ----Posted by MTSPENCE05 07/31/2007 @ 5:05pm

    Yep. You said "the US wants to arm the Saudis with sophisticated weapons that they can turn over to radicalized elements in Iraq."

    I said "It's that the U.S. WANTS to arm the Saudis, not the SAUDIS want to arm themselves."

    You said "And if the US fails to get serious about a political settlement in Iraq, and refuses to supply the Saudis with sophisticated US weapontry, then the Saudis will buy these weapons from US competitors?" (question to me, not statement...indicating that you are dubious of the idea of the Saudis buying their weapons from others)

    I said "2. But if we DON'T arm the Saudis, they'll just say "okay, no problem...we won't buy anything but American!"

    You're out of your league here. To you it's all US machinations and if we weren't OFFERING the weapons to the Saudis....they wouldn't want them---wrong, they're seeking them because they fear the Shiites and Iran.

    Or that if we don't, they won't buy them elsewhere----wrong, they've shown no compunction against buying items from Europe.

    Posted by Mask at 07/31/2007 @ 7:53pm

73. Frei, I am reading and re reading Britannica on the Fed.

    proof generally comes in a trial not before. the house is the grand jury, if it so chooses. proof of guilt is not required of a grand jury.

    did the mis-administration conspire to get us into the war? we were promised a congressional investigation by the repub leadership. we did not get it. perhaps we will get it now.

    I like the way you so deftly changed the subject from the fed to Bush. instead of coming up with any source or any background on your assertion that wars have been paid for by inflation. a shameful trick, of course.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/31/2007 @ 8:32pm

74. as usual, big on assertions, little on proof. the definition of a conspiracy nut.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/31/2007 @ 9:20pm

75. Frei you are incapable of carrying on a discussion, and not for the first time.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/31/2007 @ 9:21pm

76. Posted by MASK

    Oh, I see, you're actually dumb enough to believe that the US umbrella doesn't cover Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf states. Are you really so dense? Iran is not going to attack anyone. They don't have to launch an attack to spread their influence. Besides, if Iran (or any other nation) made even the vaguest of threats against our oil kingdom, the US would put everything it has on target. You're talking out of your weak, punk ass, as usual.

    Yeah, I'm really out of my league here. Why don't you and your simpleton buddy Freiheit go get some ice cream?

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/31/2007 @ 9:50pm

77. Posted by MTSPENCE05 07/31/2007 @ 9:50pm

    What does a "US umbrella coverage" have to do with the previous comments, Empty?

    We were discussing your lame-ass analysis that "the US is WANTING the Saudis to arm themselves"...and not the correct view that it's "The SAUDIS are wanting to arm themselves, because they feel threatened by the Shiites and Iran".

    Try to keep up, huh?

    Posted by Mask at 07/31/2007 @ 10:58pm

78. Frei, your idea of making an argument is saying that those who don't buy your assertions don't know how the world works. now isn't that special.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 08/01/2007 @ 08:09am

79. Frei, after some further research I have concluded that it is the post office that is behind all of america's wars.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 08/01/2007 @ 5:25pm