Powell: Engage Hamas

The Bush Administration, in advance of a much-hyped Middle East conference in September, continues to push a "West Bank first" strategy in the occupied territories that confines Gaza to a Hamas-led wasteland.

That plan now has at least one high-profile American critic: Colin Powell.

"I don't think you can just cast them into outer darkness and try to find a solution to the problems of the region without taking to account the standing that Hamas has in the Palestinian community," Powell said today.

That point, so often missed by American and Israeli policymakers, should be self-evident. But Powell went further, describing how US policy actually empowered Hamas. "They won an election that we insisted upon having," Powell said. "And so, as unpleasant a group they may be and as distasteful as I find some of their positions, I think through some means, the Middle East Quartet… or through some means Hamas has to be engaged."

This is what democracy looks like...

Comments (90)

1. We engage other countries that aren't democracies like they were our long lost family...for instance, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China.

   However, we won't engage a democratically elected group.

   This makes zero sense, which is why it should be expected from the current occupier of the white house.

   Posted by BlueTexan at 07/19/2007 @ 5:12pm

2. Powell's remarks remind me of why he is no longer a part of the current administration: He is not an ideologue.

   Posted by mtspence05 at 07/19/2007 @ 6:00pm

3. I think things are going as planned with Palestine. The Bush administration and Israel love this. Hammas and the PLO are at each other's throats. Palestine is very close to civil war and with that, comes vulnerability. You can help which side you want to win, with conditions of course. This all plays right into Israel's hands. If the U.S. and Israel step in and help out the PLO for future favors, they will pretty much have control over Palestine. Look at what they did. The weakened the PLO, didn't raise a finger to slow Hammas down, and then pulled away any support once Hammas won the election. Now, the PLO is looking for outside help and will probably come to the bargaining table just for survival.

   Posted by Wolfgang1 at 07/19/2007 @ 6:09pm

4. There's a great little scene in the great flick, "The Quiet American" when Michael Cain's cynical journalist and Brendan Fraser's American are arguing about the best approach in Viet Nam (still French Indo-China at the time). Fraser is obviously arguing that democracy is the only way to go for the soon-to-be former colony. Cain asks, "so what are the Americans going to do if they hold an election and Ho Chi Minh wins?"

   Posted by Rintrah at 07/19/2007 @ 6:19pm

5. His willingness to trivialize a terrorist organization into "distasteful positions" indicates a fundamental flaw in his understanding of both humanity and the responsibility for governments to not recognize groups that advocate the genocide of both nations and ethnic groups.

   As stated on another thread, will some pro-Israel booster here tell me where I can find in the Hamas charter the statement that "the state of Israel must never be recognized"

   I read the entire charter and could not find this reference. The charter appears to be a 'war charter' against those who have wronged the Palestinians by taking their land by force.

   Because the focus of their charter is 'righting this wrong', discussions about how to do this would appear to be of much interest to Hamas.

   Posted by Metteyya at 07/19/2007 @ 6:27pm

6. "so what are the Americans going to do if they hold an election and Ho Chi Minh wins?"

   Posted by RINTRAH 07/19/2007 @ 6:19pm | ignore this person

   answer: they cancelled the election, in advance of such an eventuality.

   a similar thing happened in Algeria, more recently. when the islamicists won the elections the election was retroactively cancelled. result? ten years of civil war with 200 000 dead.

   Posted by johannesrolf at 07/19/2007 @ 6:40pm

7. I find it odd that people oppose LvLiberty and his beliefs,but support these people who are bigger religious extremists then luvvy is.I'm an old school liberal who is against any form of oppression so I oppose zionists and these people.The stated goal of Hamas extends beyond just wanting Pal land back.They do wish to forcefully spread the oppressive religion of Islam which I'm not good with.People can whine all they want about Israel,but Israel doesn't use Mickey Mouse to teach children to violently spread their religion.Hamas should have been crushed along with AQ within a couple of years after 9/11 like FDR would have done.That liberal knew how to respond to being attacked and knew how to crush oppression.

   Posted by i'm nobody at 07/19/2007 @ 6:56pm

8. The stated goal of Hamas extends beyond just wanting Pal land back.They do wish to forcefully spread the oppressive religion of Islam

   Again, where does it say this in the Hamas charter?

   The Quran, which even Hamas follows, says "let there be no compulsion in religion because truth will clearly stand out from falsehood" (2:228).

   Posted by Metteyya at 07/19/2007 @ 7:04pm

9. Correction: it is 2:256 of the Quran that forbids spreading religion by force.

   Posted by Metteyya at 07/19/2007 @ 7:05pm

10. Mette-I don't know if you live in a fantasy world, if you're a neo nazi in drag,or a Muslim extremist.Judging from what I've read of your stuff I'm leaning towards Muslim extremist.Like the Bible, the Koran can be used to justify anything so picking out a verse has no meaning.I don't care in the slightest what's in their charter.They are an admitted jihadist group.They wish to spread oppression and use children to accomplish their goal and I oppose such things.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/19/2007 @ 7:16pm

11. I don't care in the slightest what's in their charter.They are an admitted jihadist group.They wish to spread oppression and use children to accomplish their goal and I oppose such things.

    You may not care what is in their charter or their commitment to following the dictates in the Quran that forbid spreading religion by force, but I think the rest of the world should not simply follow mainstream press labels of a group and should really try to figure out what they are about and how one might engage them to bring about peace in the Middle East.

    Like Powell says, the world needs to deal with the 'reality' that Hamas has more support among the Palestinians than any other group, as witnessed by their winning a 'Democratic' election. Therefore ignoring Hamas is like sticking your head in the sand and pretending that the tide is not going to come in and drown you.

    This Administration needs to check their egos at the door, stop listening to AIPAC, and resist their "lets show them who's boss" shortcomings, so they can focus on what is really 'necessary' to solve the Palestinian situation, if they are genuinely interested in a solution.

    Ignoring the popular support of Hamas among the Palestinian people gets you nowhere, so why continue down that road?

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/19/2007 @ 7:38pm

12. "2.256": There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Al}ah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/19/2007 @ 7:54pm

13. Mette-I don't know if you live in a fantasy world, if you're a neo nazi in drag,or a Muslim extremist.Judging from what I've read of your stuff I'm leaning towards Muslim extremist

    Sorry, but you are way off base. I am a Buddhist who practices Theravada Buddhism (original Buddhism) in the American tradition found in Vipassana groups.

    I am generally against war, against oppression, against poverty, against hunger, against homelessness, against deception, against hate, against ignorance, against selfishness, against a disconnected world, and against anything that results in one group of people pretending that they are superior to another.

    If this makes me an extremist, then I am guilty as charged!

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/19/2007 @ 7:55pm

14. Mette-I don't need to study people who teach children to commit murder in order to spread their religion.You may wish to let millions of Muslims know about that verse.They have centuries of history of doing forced conversions.Save your Islamic extremist propaganda for the pathetically stupid.I have heard Hamas members state their intent to spread Islam through force on documentaries meant to make Hamas look good.I will admit,however,that you are good at spreading Islamic propaganda under the pretense of being a Buddhist,but I study Buddhism and Buddhists don't have your views on Hamas,Jews,and Israel.If you're Buddhist then you're a crappy Buddhist and need to work on that and forget about spreading pro terrorist propaganda.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/19/2007 @ 7:57pm

15. I study Buddhism and Buddhists don't have your views on Hamas,Jews,and Israel

    One of the things I like about Buddhism is that there is no one "with authority" telling you what you should think or what you should do or what political beliefs you should have to be a 'good' Buddhist. The Buddha himself acknowledged that if any of his teachings did not help one in their spiritual life that they are free to discard them.

    The 'authority religions' are the ones that seem to try to dictate political views, so you really don't understand much about Buddhism if you believe all Buddhist should have the same politics.

    So my political beliefs are my own and not 'Buddhist', and are only related to my Buddhist practice in that I try to be kind toward all, I try to help those who are suffering, I try not to harm any living being, I try to share the joy and sadness of others, I try to be fully present, and I try to keep a balanced temperament.

    How you can construe such practice as 'Muslim extremism' is a bit perplexing, but I have met quite a few people in my life's journey that have some pretty wild ideas and very unique and creative ways of dealing with or escaping from reality.

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/19/2007 @ 8:23pm

16. Why doesn't the Arab world step up to the plate and help the Palestinians? Can't they just say F-You to Israel and annex Palestine into Jordan or Egypt? Honestly, what do the borders of Palestine even look like at Jordan and Egypt? What prevents Palestinians from running like hell toward their Arab brethren? Are the borders porous, open, fenced or guarded? Does anyone know?

    Posted by Person at 07/19/2007 @ 8:23pm

17. You may wish to let millions of Muslims know about that verse.They have centuries of history of doing forced conversions.

    There are some bad Muslims, just like there are some bad Jews and bad Christians.

    Are you saying because there were some bad Muslims who did not understand or believe in the Quran, that now Jews and Christians are free to engage in New Crusade politics and force Judeo-Christian Biblical notions on others with different spiritual beliefs?

    If you believe this, how are you any different than those bad Muslims of old that did not want to adhere to the Quran?

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/19/2007 @ 8:31pm

18. "9.29": Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection

    "9.5": So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/19/2007 @ 9:32pm

19. METT

    you're a hinayanist nihilist bastard? lol... (joking from a rinzai provocateur)

    never would have guessed...

    what i like about the buddhism is, among may other things, is this...

    if all you other guys dont get it right this time...you have plenty more chances coming up...so why should i run around trying to coerce you? here's the truth, take it or leave it - no finality until enlightenment. yer choice, yer life...

    but the last 2 of the abrahamic faiths aint like that...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/19/2007 @ 9:38pm

20. We might as well talk to Hamas...After we get out of Iraq, we're going to need all the Sunni friends we can get.

    Posted by Mask at 07/19/2007 @ 10:24pm

21. SPECIAL COMMENT By Keith Olbermann

    Anchor, 'Countdown' MSNBC

    Yawn!!! Is that guy still employed? If he had a message in there somewhere, I could almost respect the guy. Too bad that the hyperventilating, melodramatic hyperbole is so over the top as to make Rosie O'Donnells occasioned rants seem genuine.

    Any chance that KO has a bug (listening device) or two at his crib?

    Posted by Sliver at 07/19/2007 @ 10:29pm

22. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 07/19/2007 @ 9:32pm

    Ibble, be careful whose translation you use. Not all translations of the Koran are the same.

    If you'll go to this page,

    (Netscape Religion Forum)

    respond to the first post and ask what the best translation is, you'll get an honest, informed answer.

    Just say scoff0165 sent you.

    Posted by scoff0165 at 07/19/2007 @ 10:51pm

23. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the (prospective) parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conference are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam.

    I think the above sentence from your quote from the Hamas charter says it all! You can't 'appoint' Israel as the authority over Palestine. The UN resolution that created the state of Israel and Palestine provided for two 'independent' states, not one dominated by the other.

    If an international convention were convened with an 'honest' broker, which is obviously NOT the US, perhaps we can get back to the original UN resolution concept that created the two independent states, and I think Hamas, more than any other group, would be supportive of that.

    The idea that Israel should control Palestinian land, access to Palestine, and the 'entire' city of Jerusalem, is a non-starter, and inconsistent with the terms and spirit of the original UN resolution.

    Using US money to bribe an unrepresentative group (Fatah) so that it will accept Israeli control of the Palestinian state is wrong, and will ultimately fail. But this has been the MO of Bush all along if you have been following his 'diplomacy' at the UN Security Council - bribe all (poor) countries on the Council so it 'looks like' the Council agrees with 'our' position.

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/19/2007 @ 10:58pm

24. Posted by SCOFF0165 07/19/2007 @ 10:51pm

    i'm lost...more specific...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/19/2007 @ 11:02pm

25. From time to time a clamouring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that conditions, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it.

    This is another interesting passage from your excerpt on the Hamas charter concerning 'preconditions' to sit down and talk. Why not have 'no' preconditions? Why try to tilt the negotiation in favor of one party by insisting on pre-conditions from only the other party?

    It seems clear to me from this passage and the other one in my previous post, that Hamas would sit down and negotiate in good faith if there was an 'honest broker' and 'no pre-conditions', which is clearly not what we hear from the mainstream press that Hamas is not willing to talk because they don't believe Israel has a right to exist.

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/19/2007 @ 11:15pm

26. if somehow, by official decree somewhere, let say kansas were given to the "OOGLIANS" by forceful removal of the residents, don't you think that kansans (kansonians?) would mount a resistance movement to regain there lost homes? and wouldn't texans, bostonians, michiganders, come to their aid?

    i know palestinians who lost there homes in 1948. while they don't seem to harbour anti-semitism, they do have much animosity towards the israeli/american governments for almost 60 years of injustice.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/20/2007 @ 01:09am

27. "their" homes.

    hay, let's make inglish funetik

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/20/2007 @ 01:10am

28. Political Question of the Day:

    IF GERMANY ATTACKS RUSSIA FROM THE REAR, WILL GREECE HELP?

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 07/20/2007 @ 10:34am

29. Damn, FRANKGRITS, you and I need to sit down and talk some Military History. How are you with Mongols?

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 07/20/2007 @ 10:40am

30. MASK

    This is off-thread, but I just ran across it, and recalled our exchange from the other day when you got snarky about how the government will function so much better once we fill civil service positions with "people who love government".

    I think you knew that my point was larger than that Pollyana-ish oversimplification, especially since I specifically referenced Grover Norquist's influence. Nonetheless, this guy seems to have hit pretty squarely on the point I was trying to make.

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/015616.php

    We now return to our regularly scheduled pissing contest.

    Posted by drhammer at 07/20/2007 @ 10:47am

31. Posted by DRHAMMER 07/20/2007 @ 10:47am

    Here's the thing, Doc. Ronald Reagan didn't create the "We're from the Gov't, and we're here to help you" "warning" from whole cloth...as much as the Left would like to think so.

    There were fundamental flaws in the post-60s/post-Great Society social welfare net (remember, little of the "anti-bureaucracy" stuff existed before that....Remember, EISENHOWER created the Dept. of Health, Education, and Welfare and left the New Deal intact)

    So SOMETHING happened in the 60s and 70s that gave rise to it. My theory....arrogant liberals, mostly politicians. Who thought the public would endure higher and higher taxes, for more expansive programs, and less reform and attacks on abuse and fraud.

    See, it was EASY to call for more programs, but HARD to go in and reform them, or even CUT them. Anybody who tried was called "cold-hearted and cruel" and it finally took a DEMOCRAT (Clinton) to enact welfare reform because he was "inoculated" against charges of "no compassion" due to his Party affiliation.

    As for the taxes, again remember that Howard Jarvis and the Calif. Tax Revolt pre-dated Reagan by almost two years. People were getting sick (even in liberal California) of rising taxes, siphoned off to distant communities (or in the case of the Fed to programs that didn't effect their own lives).

    None of this was "engineered by the Right"...more TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF.

    Arrogance, egotism, and an inability to admit when they were wrong....THAT is what un-did liberalism in the 70s, and since liberalism and a larger government bureaucracy are intrinsicly linked....the "bureaucrat" naturally became a pejorative figure.

    10, 5 years earlier....Al Gore and "Reinventing Government" would have been called "moderate Republicanism". By 1992 (after Mondale and Dukakis lost, clinging to the old failed paradigms)...it became a necessity for Democrat to survive....and still is.

    Posted by Mask at 07/20/2007 @ 11:09am

32. i know palestinians who lost there homes in 1948. while they don't seem to harbour anti-semitism, they do have much animosity towards the israeli/american governments for almost 60 years of injustice.

    Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 07/20/2007 @ 01:09am | ignore this person

    a very simplistic analysis on your part.

    Israel was "created" when Iraq was created, when Jordan was created, when Syria was created, when Saudi Arabia... these states did not exist before WW1. in order to address the ME we need to get past what may have been an injustice then, and concentrate on the reality today. Israel will never go back to a status quo ante.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/20/2007 @ 11:15am

33. Posted by PERSON 07/19/2007 @ 8:23pm | ignore this person

    wow, are you ignorant. the arab states have had their palestinian refugees in camps since '48, using them as a cudgel to beat Israel with. they are supported in the camps by western money. the fact is THEY don't want them.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/20/2007 @ 11:22am

34. but his prime time slot against O'Reilly is the number one show on MSNBC----Posted by FRANKGRITS 07/20/2007 @ 12:08pm

    That was an INTERESTING way of phrasing that, FRANK. Why didn't you say Olberman is more popular or has higher ratings than O'Reilly?

    heheh

    Posted by Mask at 07/20/2007 @ 12:18pm

35. "That was an INTERESTING way of phrasing that, FRANK. Why didn't you say Olberman is more popular or has higher ratings than O'Reilly?

    heheh

    Posted by MASK 07/20/2007 @ 12:18pm |

    Because Obermann has one of the lowest viewerships on TV and is even lower than AirAmerica...ah, but it is rising..I guess...or Frank has the ratings chart upside down...again.

    heheh

    Posted by john maasch at 07/20/2007 @ 12:46pm

36. MET,

    "Like Powell says, the world needs to deal with the 'reality' that Hamas has more support among the Palestinians than any other group, as witnessed by their winning a 'Democratic' election. Therefore ignoring Hamas is like sticking your head in the sand and pretending that the tide is not going to come in and drown you. "

    If I follow you we should have accepted the reality that Hitler is the will of Germany in the 40s...and accept the reality? MacMillian style?

    So, then, the west should have talked to Hilter in the 30s, and 40s, since he was so popular in Germany...and stopped fighting the war so we could talk and negoiate peace? Isn't that surrender at that point?

    Posted by john maasch at 07/20/2007 @ 12:50pm

37. Maasch, I recall you posting that Cadillacs now cost $100,00.

    wrong. there is only one Caddy at that price, according to their website. they start around 30,000 with only one model at 100Gs. the average is 59 Gs and the median around 55 Gs. if only you would check the facts before you post.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/20/2007 @ 1:00pm

38. If I follow you we should have accepted the reality that Hitler is the will of Germany in the 40s...and accept the reality?

    Absolutely no comparison to Hamas, which is trying to seek justice for the Palestinians whose land was taken 'by force' by Israel, and Hitler who took Jewish property by force.

    The irony, is that Israel is looking more like the Third Reich by using 'force' to dispossess non-Jews of their land, property and rights!

    It's as if the Israeli Jews that govern Israel think they are 'superior' to non-Jews, and this is just as offensive as German supremacy ideas.

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/20/2007 @ 1:04pm

39. "Maasch, I recall you posting that Cadillacs now cost $100,00."

    I didn't mean to imply all Cadis cost 100k...but they can if you upgrqade enough..and the one I was refering to is 100k plus.

    In what context was this mentioned? I have forgotten the thread.

    Posted by john maasch at 07/20/2007 @ 1:06pm

40. "Absolutely no comparison to Hamas, which is trying to seek justice for the Palestinians whose land was taken 'by force' by Israel, and Hitler who took Jewish property by force. "

    But Germany was destroyed by reparations(stealing and fines) and wanted their lands back that was taken in WW1(Sudetenland Germans wanted to be German as I assume the Prussians did), so the reality of the support of those people should have been ..what? ignored, or honored to?

    Posted by john maasch at 07/20/2007 @ 1:09pm

41. Meete-Do you live in America?Are you a native American?If you are living in America and aren't a native American are you going to give your house to a Native American family and leave the country or are you a raging hypocrite?

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/20/2007 @ 1:14pm

42. I'm curious as to what Hamas' reaction will be, when their FUNDING gets cut...to go to Sunni groups in Iraq, when The Big One starts in a year or so, after we pull-out?

    The battleground will be Iraq...Palestine may get short shrift.

    Would Hamas then come to the bargaining table, to get lucrative international aid?

    Posted by Mask at 07/20/2007 @ 1:19pm

43. JM,

    You are missing the main point about the immorality of TAKING LAND BY FORCE! This is what Israel has done, and it cannot be justified by calling the leaders who represent those who you stole land and property from, Nazis!

    Name calling is child's play, not serious diplomacy.

    If Israel wants to live within its legal borders that were defined by the UN when it created the state of Israel, they have nothing to fear from Hamas, the Palestianians or any other Muslim country in the region.

    Only by insisting on the immoral right to hold onto its ill-gotten gains, does Israel become a target of Muslim hostilities.

    Negotiating with Israel is sort of like negotiating with a bank robber who insists on keeping most of his stolen loot as a 'pre-condition' to negotiations!

    Israel's position is absolutely absurd, and I am glad there are organizations like Hamas that continue to remind the rest of the world that Israel is like the bank robber that wants to hang on to its stolen loot!

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/20/2007 @ 1:19pm

44. "You are missing the main point about the immorality of TAKING LAND BY FORCE! "

    But I thought the UN gave Israel the land and the rest was taken by Israel after being invaded and attacked..how many times?

    There was no Palestine or a Palistinian history or a Nation of Palestine at any time in history...my point is only a demonstration that the same arguements may be applied to situations that are not what they always seem...Israel is the only democracy in the area and is the only one who hasn't declared it wants to kill off its neighbors or drive them into the sea...a small but properous area in a vast wasteland of oil wealth with poverty and the only issue here is Israel seems a little strange.

    Posted by john maasch at 07/20/2007 @ 1:25pm

45. "they have nothing to fear from Hamas, the Palestianians or any other Muslim country in the region. "

    Really? since when?

    Posted by john maasch at 07/20/2007 @ 1:28pm

46. Meete-Do you live in America?Are you a native American?If you are living in America and aren't a native American are you going to give your house to a Native American family and leave the country or are you a raging hypocrite?

    I honestly wish the US would make reparations to the Native Americans. The 'claim' is that we are making reparations by allowing the gaming casinos on reservations, but I don't think this is sufficient.

    I think following the New Zealand model of making substantial reparations to the Maoris is what the US, Australia and 'any' nation that has stolen land by force should follow. The reparations and embrace of Maori culture in New Zealand has accelerated the full integration of Maoris into New Zealand. Putting the dispossessed on 'reservations' like we did here in the US, or what occurred in Australia and now Palestine is shameful, and should not be respected by any human being with a conscience.

    So instead of giving up my house, I would like to sit down and negotiate in good faith with the remaining Native American tribes what the amount of reparations should be to compensate them for the theft of their land and would GLADLY pay my fair share of this amount through US taxes!

    It certainly would be money well spent and a much better use of our tax dollars than this stupid war in Iraq!

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/20/2007 @ 1:30pm

47. Mette-In other words,you're a raging hypocrite trying to do pro jihadist propaganda.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/20/2007 @ 1:32pm

48. Posted by METTEYYA 07/20/2007 @ 1:19pm

    I think yopur position forgets the number of times Israel was invaded...had the Palestinians abided by the same rule and not attacked Israel after the UN resolutions, then they would have been living in peace and prosperity for 50 years now..I just don't think the Arab/Muslim world has it in them to live with Israel..as even now the clowns in Iran are starting the same old shit about driving Israel to extinction...

    Your post has no empirical evidence or even any realistic expectations that Israel would ever be left alone.

    Posted by john maasch at 07/20/2007 @ 1:32pm

49. But I thought the UN gave Israel the land and the rest was taken by Israel after being invaded and attacked..how many times?

    Israel certainly has the right to defend itself from attack, but does NOT have the right to take the land and property of others through force!

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/20/2007 @ 1:34pm

50. "So instead of giving up my house, I would like to sit down and negotiate in good faith with the remaining Native American tribes what the amount of reparations should be to compensate them for the theft of their land and would GLADLY pay my fair share of this amount through US taxes! "

    But what if all they want is you out of your house..and they want the house and you gone? And attack you 4 times to accomplish the task, fail, and now some other party comes along and says you should give up the second floor of your house to the same people who are willing to kill their young just to get you out...would you move them into your house?

    Posted by john maasch at 07/20/2007 @ 1:40pm

51. Mette-Just tell your buds at Hamas to build some casinos and we'll have the Israelis give them some cash.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/20/2007 @ 1:40pm

52. "Israel certainly has the right to defend itself from attack, but does NOT have the right to take the land and property of others through force!

    Posted by METTEYYA 07/20/2007 @ 1:34pm "

    I guess someone forgot to tell the Arabs that after all their attacks on Israel.

    I think you are a muslim sympathiser or at the least, you are a Palestinian apologist..

    Posted by john maasch at 07/20/2007 @ 1:42pm

53. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 07/20/2007 @ 1:06pm | ignore this person

    it was in the context of the top tax bracket being 91% during WW2, postwar and Korean war. if I recall correctly, the republic did not collapse. Elvis and the Rockefellers survived quite nicely. I favor revisiting those tax policies, as opposed to sticking your and my children with the bill.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/20/2007 @ 1:47pm

54. Mette-You are no different than the Israelis.You are living on land stolen through acts of violence and you have no intention of giving it back.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/20/2007 @ 1:48pm

55. Posted by METTEYYA 07/20/2007 @ 1:19pm | ignore this person

    the palestinian negotiating policy is quite the same. give us everything we want, then we'll talk. in the meantime we'll blow up your busses and pizzarias.

    your understanding of the issues is so one sided, as to make your posts absurd.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/20/2007 @ 1:49pm

56. So, then, the west should have talked to Hilter in the 30s, and 40s, since he was so popular in Germany...and stopped fighting the war so we could talk and negoiate peace? Isn't that surrender at that point?

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 07/20/2007 @ 12:50pm

    I DO SO LOVE THESE ABSURDIST RIGHT-WING ANALOGIES...

    Two points: 1) Hamas isn't anything like the threat that Nazi Germany was in the thirties, not to the West and not even to the Middle East. 2) The people (Bush/Cheney, Limbaugh et al.) who dictate to you what to think and say don't give a rusty fuck about truth (or valid historical parallels) and, for the most part, don't even believe their own rhetoric. Their only concern is aggrandizing their cryptofascistic power and establishing their imperial hegemony. Stick to selling real estate, Maasch.

    Posted by w_m_bear at 07/20/2007 @ 1:50pm

57. 91% eh,? Now THERE's incentive to make money and create wealth. (And I always thought Robin Hood was an Englishman)

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 07/20/2007 @ 1:55pm

58. Stick to selling real estate, Maasch.

    Posted by W_M_BEAR 07/20/2007 @ 1:50pm | ignore this person

    ?

    Posted by john maasch at 07/20/2007 @ 1:56pm

59. " 1) Hamas isn't anything like the threat that Nazi Germany was in the thirties,.."

    It is to Israel..who cares if it is a threat to the west or the ME...we are talking Israel.

    If you can't follow along..then..

    maybe you should stick to...selling real estate, W_M_BEAR IN THE WOODS?

    Posted by john maasch at 07/20/2007 @ 1:59pm

60. JR,

    I can't even get up the muscle to disscuss 91% tax rates.... thats larceny on such a grand scale I can't fathom...and do not want to.

    Posted by john maasch at 07/20/2007 @ 2:01pm

61. W_M_BEAR IN THE WOODS?

    or is it

    W_M_BEAR SHIT IN THE WOODS?

    Posted by john maasch at 07/20/2007 @ 2:02pm

62. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 07/20/2007 @ 2:01pm | ignore this person

    cowardly.

    why not? is your quivver empty?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/20/2007 @ 2:05pm

63. I think you are a muslim sympathiser or at the least, you are a Palestinian apologist..

    And also a Native American , Maori, aboriginal sympathizer as well, right?

    I sympathize with all oppressed people on Earth who have been wronged by their oppressor, including the Jews! I just recognize that Israel has flipped the script and now THEY are the oppressors of Palestinians!

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/20/2007 @ 2:57pm

64. Mette-Then stop oppressing Native Americans and get out of this country.They don't want your sympathy.They want their land back.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/20/2007 @ 3:07pm

65. Everybody having big fun with METTEYA?

    Want some more? Ask him how a vastly popular and fantasically gifted entertainer like....Arsenio Hall...lost his job?

    heheh

    Posted by Mask at 07/20/2007 @ 3:17pm

66. Here's an idea: All those who accept theivery of one's wealth as a positive attribute, step forward: (C'mon, you know who you are). And then YOU shell it out, and leave the rest of us alone

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 07/20/2007 @ 3:24pm

67. Mask-Do you mean our Palestinian Buddhist who was singing the praises of Hamas?Now all we need is a Zionist Hindu singing the praises of Israel to round out the day.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/20/2007 @ 3:26pm

68. Posted by I'M NOBODY 07/20/2007 @ 3:26pm

    First time I met MET was on a PETER ROTHBERG thread...it was there he informed me that the oh-so-talented Mr Hall was sacked, for having Louis Farrakhan on his show, by the "Jews who control all the Media".

    After much teeth-pulling, I got the gist of METTEYA's attitude....it's not the usual "reflexively anti-Israel Left" (as Ari Berman of "The Nation" once noted)....he's got a problem with ALL Jewish people...and there's a word for that, that DOES apply and no, it's NOT for people who "oppose the occupation" or "don't like Israeli policies"....

    it's for people who hate or fear Jews.

    MET's view of poor Arsenio Hall's victimhood to "blood libel" (and not the fact that Letterman went to CBS and knocked Hall off the charts) was just the start! And the reason I ignore him to today.

    Posted by Mask at 07/20/2007 @ 3:34pm

69. Oh, by the way...."some of his best friends are Jews".

    Google it and see what you find out about THAT phrase!....heheh

    Posted by Mask at 07/20/2007 @ 3:35pm

70. Then stop oppressing Native Americans and get out of this country.They don't want your sympathy.They want their land back.

    I think I can be more effective here as an agent for change in America in which reparations for the Native Americans is put on the table!

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/20/2007 @ 3:37pm

71. Mette-The Israelis should use that excuse.You,of course,will change nothing for the Native Americans and you know it,but you did come up with an excuse for your being just like the Israelis,but they make excuses to.Everyone who takes some other persons land and stays on it make excuses for doing so.It makes us feel better.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/20/2007 @ 3:45pm

72. Mask-I think he was,also, trying to imply that Jewish control of the media is why Hamas looks bad to Americans.I pay no attention to the MSM so it wouldn't affect my view,but I have the same negative view of Hamas.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/20/2007 @ 3:49pm

73. METTEYYA,

    After looking at all the arguements about reparations in general I decided on this: I will never pay reparations: To anyone, at any time, in any form. For me, end of story.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 07/20/2007 @ 4:09pm

74. So, then, the west should have talked to Hilter in the 30s, and 40s, since he was so popular in Germany...and stopped fighting the war so we could talk and negoiate peace? Isn't that surrender at that point?

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH

    That's exactly what people in your camp wanted. That's why France rolled over; and there were many in Britain that preferred to negotiate. Furthermore, the right in the US were determined not to join in the fight against the National Socialists. Hitler let FDR off the hook when he declared war on the US on December 11. Talk about "revisionist" history.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/20/2007 @ 4:19pm

75. But--as Johannes pointed out--the facts have absolutely nothing to do with your posts.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 07/20/2007 @ 4:19pm

76. no matter what one thinks of Hamas, it is imperative that you negotiate with your enemy. failure to do so only leads to more war. in some way Hamas is like the IRA. after much bloodshed a negotiated solution was found.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/20/2007 @ 5:22pm

77. your being just like the Israelis,but they make excuses to

    The difference is Israel has the 'power' to return the land to the Palestinians, whereas I only have the power to influence others who 'may' influence decision makers if these decision makers have not been corrupted by some moneyed interest group like AIPAC.

    I do want to push for a national referendum in America so we can bypass a corrupt American Congress. With a national referendum, things like reparations for the Native Americans have a real chance of passing.

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/20/2007 @ 5:23pm

78. After looking at all the arguements about reparations in general I decided on this: I will never pay reparations: To anyone, at any time, in any form. For me, end of story.

    Hi Chip,

    I know there are many like you who feel the same way. I don't think this is the majority, and it certainly puts America in a back seat position because we are unable to be an honest broker in a Middle East dispute over taking land by force until we have resolved this issue ourselves with the 'wronged' parties, the Native Americans.

    Would you look to a country to broker your dispute over stolen land if that country steals land themselves and has not made amends?

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/20/2007 @ 5:29pm

79. Mette-America can give the land back just like Israel can.Stop making excuses.Reparations would probably cause Native Americans more harm than good and only serves the purpose of making people like you feel better about stealing their land and refusing to give it back.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/20/2007 @ 5:31pm

80. But what if all they want is you out of your house..and they want the house and you gone? And attack you 4 times to accomplish the task, fail, and now some other party comes along and says you should give up the second floor of your house to the same people who are willing to kill their young just to get you out...would you move them into your house?

    The problem, JM, is no one is talking to Hamas, so you really do not know what they want or what they are willing to accept.

    This highlights the failure of the entire Bush Administration which believes that 'diplomacy' is sticking your head in the sand and not talking to the parties that can help you resolve a dispute. This is plain incompetence, and Rice (although I am sure she is just taking orders from Bush) should get a medal for being the most incompetent diplomat to ever grace the State Department!

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/20/2007 @ 5:41pm

81. Reparations would probably cause Native Americans more harm than good

    Huh?

    Care to explain this one?

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/20/2007 @ 5:43pm

82. the indians aren't the only ones who lost their land. there was a war with Mexico that resulted in the US seizing a huge chunk of Mexico, namely California, new mexico and more. Texas too was taken from Mexico. anyone for a right of return there? anyone for giving back that land?

    Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt. it withdrew from Gaza. it will have to dismantle the illegal settlements in the west bank. remember, the Palestinians of the west bank used to have jobs in Israel. when the blowing up of busses and discos started those jobs went bye bye. can anyone blame the Israelis? we can only establish a dialogue when facts from both sides are acknowledged. Met's defense of the palestinians is admirable. his one sided views aren't.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/20/2007 @ 5:43pm

83. Mette-Native Americans are already too dependent on outside money particularly that which comes from the govt.You have no moral high ground.You are no different than the Israelis.You want to make yourself feel better by paying off Native Americans,but they don't want money.They want their land back.Like Israel,you aren't going to give it back and no one else is either.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/20/2007 @ 5:50pm

84. the indians aren't the only ones who lost their land. there was a war with Mexico that resulted in the US seizing a huge chunk of Mexico, namely California, new mexico and more. Texas too was taken from Mexico.

    Those were ALSO 'Native Americans' that lived in California, New Mexico, and Texas.

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/20/2007 @ 5:52pm

85. They want their land back.Like Israel,you aren't going to give it back and no one else is either.

    IAN, the problem is that we don't know what they want or what they are willing to accept because we are not talking to them. 'Effective' diplomacy requires you to talk to 'all' of the interested parties, particularly the ones that can help you resolve the dispute.

    This is all Colin Powell is saying, and I agree with him.

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/20/2007 @ 5:56pm

86. Native Americans are already too dependent on outside money particularly that which comes from the govt.

    I don't think they should get a check from the government, they should get all of 'their' money in one lump sum and let them do with it as they please.

    If they were smart, they would do like the Maoris and set up a trust with the money and live off the interest.

    The issue is not "how will the native Americans manage their money", it is "what can the US do to make amends for stealing their land!"

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/20/2007 @ 6:04pm

87. Mette-Reparations will never happen and you know it.Quit making lame excuses for the fact that you are no different from the Israelis.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/20/2007 @ 6:42pm

88. Mette-You're one of the only people who doesn't know what Hamas wants so you should head over and ask them.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/20/2007 @ 6:56pm

89. You're one of the only people who doesn't know what Hamas wants so you should head over and ask them.

    I don't know what they want or what they will accept, but from their charter and some of the statements from their leaders that have not been reported in the mainstream press, I would be they would accept a state of Israel that was defined by the original UN resolution as this state was not in a position of control or authority over the state of Palestine.

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/20/2007 @ 7:08pm

90. Met, there was never a state of Palestine. did you know that after the '48 war, Israel wound up with more land than was originally designed?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/21/2007 @ 10:19am