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Reddit"24" is back on Fox TV. The hit show starring Kiefer Sutherland, which premiered Sunday night, once again features at least one big torture scene in every episode – the kind of torture the Bush White House says is necessary to protect us from you-know-who.
The show is much more successful than the White House at making the case for torture. Its ratings have gone steadily up over the last five years, while Bush's ratings have gone steadily down.
In "24," Sutherland plays special agent Jack Bauer, head of the Counter Terrorism Unit. He fights some of his biggest battles not with the dark-skinned enemies trying to nuke L.A., but rather with the light-skinned do-gooders who think the head of the Counter Terrorism Unit should follow the rules.
Back in season four, for example, the bumbling bureaucrats released a captured terrorist before he could be tortured, because a lawyer for "Amnesty Global" showed up whining about the Geneva Conventions. Jack had to quit the Counter Terrorist Unit and become a private citizen in order to break the suspect's fingers.
It's especially unfortunate to see Kiefer Sutherland play the world's most popular torturer, because his father, Donald Sutherland, has been a prominent antiwar activist since Vietnam days and starred in some great films critiquing fascist politics, including "MASH" and Bertolucci's "1900." It's unfortunate also because Kiefer's grandfather, Tommy Douglas, was Canada's first socialist premier, and was recently voted "the greatest Canadian of all time" -- because he introduced universal public health care to Canada.
The grandson meanwhile is being paid $10 million a season by Rupert Murdoch to shoot kneecaps, chop off hands, and bite his enemies to death (Sunday's special thrill).
The show's connection to the Bush White House and the conservative establishment became explicit last June, when Homeland Security Chief Michael Chertoff appeared alongside the show's producers and three cast members at an event sponsored by the Heritage Foundation to discuss "The public image of US terrorism policy." The discussion was moderated by Rush Limbaugh. The C-SPAN store sells a DVD of the event--price reduced from $60 to $29.95.
Sunday night's two-hour premiere again argued not just that torture is necessary but also that it works. And it's also really exciting to watch. The show as usual made the "ticking time bomb" case for torture: we need to torture a suspect, or else thousands, or millions, will die in the next hour.
It's the same case made by Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, who proposed that judges ought to issue torture warrants in the "rare 'ticking bomb' case," and by University of Chicago law professor and federal judge Richard Posner, who has written, "If torture is the only means of obtaining the information necessary to prevent the detonation of a nuclear bomb in Times Square, torture should be used." He added that "no one who doubts that this is the case should be in a position of responsibility."
Thanks to "24," tens of millions of TV viewers know exactly what Dershowitz and Posner are talking about. As Richard Kim pointed out in The Nation in 2005, those are the cases where "the stakes are dire, the information perfect and the authorities omniscient." Of course that's a fantasy of total knowledge and power, and of course the US has never had a real "ticking time bomb" case--but Jack Bauer faces one every Sunday night on Fox.
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The show as usual made the "ticking time bomb" case for torture: we need to torture a suspect, or else thousands, or millions, will die in the next hour.
It's a shame someone didn't torture the jackanapes who had the details on 9/11 months before it happened. As in, "Bin Laden Determined To Strike In The U.S."
Posted by fromredbird at 01/15/2007 @ 01:50am
In "24," Sutherland plays special agent Jack Bauer, head of the Counter Terrorism Unit.
Actually, Jack hasn't officially worked for CTU since the third season. In the fourth season, he was working for the Secretary of Defense and with CTU on a provisional basis due to the day's attacks.
He fights some of his biggest battles not with the dark-skinned enemies trying to nuke L.A.,
Dark skin? Almost of last season's villains were white and included the then-President of the United States. This year won't be any different because that's the way it usually is. The only time the bad guys are all one color is when they're all white. (As was the case in the first season.)
but rather with the light-skinned do-gooders who think the head of the Counter Terrorism Unit should follow the rules.
Aside from the Amnesty "Global" lawyer of s4, I can't think of where this would apply.
Also - the implication that the only do-gooders on the show is white is just plain false. David Palmer was shown to be a man of conscience and integrity and he reprimanded Jack Bauer for his renegade actions in a prison riot in the third season. He was black.
In other seasons there's also been Curtis Manning (black), Tony Almeida (Latino), Gael Ortega (Latino), Claudia Salazar (Latino), Yusuf Auda (Arab), Wayne Palmer (black), Tom Baker (Asian), Sandra Palmer (black) and a dozen minor characters I can't remember.
The Amnesty Global incident was appallingly stupid. Most fans I know (who are liberals, btw) agree with this. What's interesting is how effective torture has shown to be or not be over the seasons.
The people who have the best luck with torture on "24"? The ones who usually get what they want? (Whether it be from our heroes at CTU or civilians.) The bad guys. The only one who hasn't broken under torture is Jack Bauer and that's because the earth would spin off its axis if he did.
Jack is usually as successful as they are though there are times when the show has deigned to show him as wrong and his rough tactics actually led him to worse situations.
And the ones who are almost completely ineffective with torture? Who rarely get the information or cooperation desired? The US government as represented by CTU (without Jack) or other government officials. Most of season four was dominated by CTU torturing the wrong people - innocent people - or torturing people unnecessarily when talking to them produced a better result. (As was demonstrated a couple times when someone stopped roughing up the suspect and just talked to them.)
Sunday night's two-hour premiere again argued not just that torture is necessary but also that it works.
It argued that it worked. Really.
There were five incidents of torture as I recall. Mentions of the Chinese torturing Jack and he didn't talk. FAIL. Mentions of Jack torturing a terrorist in Beirut that led to the terrorist dying and Jack being used as a pawn. Not what Jack wanted, I'm guessing. The terrorists torturing Jack for revenge and it didn't work. FAIL. Jack torturing a character for information and becoming disgusted with it and stopping without getting information. FAIL. Then an ex-terrorist torturing a character and getting information. SUCCESS!
So. Five instances and only one provided information. Yup. 24 teaches that torture works. Eventually.
Moreso if you're Jack Bauer ... or a bad guy.
Posted by brighid at 01/15/2007 @ 02:52am
Posted by BRIGHID 01/15/2007 @ 02:52am
BRIGH pretty much shot up THIS article....that plus the fact that it attracted RESE Paranoid Pieces, indicates a wee bit of FLUFF ...
about a TV show??!?!?!?!?!?!
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2007 @ 07:04am
Congress is completely impotent to stop the Cheney "Total War" plan laid out by Ledeen, Wurmser, Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle and within the PNAC. The supposed "Power Of The Purse" does not exist any longer. Not long after Bush took office, Rumsfeld set about "disappearing" what he claimed was $2.3 TRILLION from the DOD budget. He made the announcement of its disappearance just one day prior to 9/11:
T H I S W A S T H E F U N D I N G F O R T H E M I L I T A R Y C O U P
http://benfrank.net/patriots/node/125/print
CBS Reports Pentagon Cannot Account for $2.3 Trillion
"'According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions,' Rumsfeld admitted. $2.3 trillion -- that's $8,000 for every man, woman and child in America." -- CBS, 1/29/02 http://www.wanttoknow.info/050310pentagontrillionslost http://www.whereisthemoney.org/
DOD Comptroller (and Mossad agent), Dov Zakheim stole it (the actual amount is $7 trillion) and off-shored it to Israel. Cheney doesn't need the money from Congress to continue the Globalist Domination Agenda on behalf of his clients (Rockefeller, The Crown, Israel, Exxon, Halliburton, etc.) - it was "set aside in advance of his 9/11 False Flag Operation.
David Rockefeller & Dick Cheney - American Traitors: Cheney laughs about lying to his constituents in order to get elected: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdxLYuvvbgs&NR
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_1047.shtml
Dov Zakheim and the 9/11 Conspiracy: Dov and the World Trade Center: Perhaps not coincidentally in May 2001, when Dov served at the Pentagon, it was an SPS (his firm's) subsidiary, Tridata Corporation, that oversaw the investigation of the first terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in 1993. This would have given them intimate knowledge of the security systems and structural blueprints of the World Trade Center. From the '90s through 2001, WTC Security was handled by Securacom, a Kuwait-American firm, on whose board Marvin Bush, the president's brother, sat. After 9/11, Securacom was let go, changed its name to Stratosec, and was delisted from the Stock Exchange in 2002.
C O I N C I D E N C E ? ? ?
The proof of this will be revealed when the war continues despite Congress cutting off the funding. Waterboard Dov Zakheim and you will learn how the entire oiperation was PRE-FUNDED prior to 9/11. The plan proceeds apace. Chaos in Iraq was part of the plan. So is a false flag attack coming any day, designed to appear to come from Iran, in order to justify "first-use" of offensive nuclear weapons.
Israel is 100% in charge. Chertoff is their coverup specialist in the US, and now Lieberman has been put in charge of the committee in charge of the oversight of Chertoff (fox/hen house). Chertoff was the head of Operation Greenquest - the coverup of the 9/11 money trail.
Rummy and Cheney drilled for Armageddon for years: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200403/mann
The Armageddon Plan: During the Reagan era Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld were key players in a clandestine program designed to set aside the legal lines of succession and immediately install a new "President" in the event that a nuclear attack killed the country's leaders. The program helps explain the behavior of the Bush Administration on and after 9/11.
9/11 co-cospirator - Former Comverse CEO Kobi Alexander is wanted on Federal Charges - yet he is in the WITNESS PROTECTION PROGRAM inside the US? Who is Cheney REALLY protecting? His own criminal enterprise, which GHW Bush is the head of.
Posted by plunger at 01/15/2007 @ 07:08am
Posted by RESE 01/15/2007 @ 07:12am
RESE...bite me. What have YOU done to "investigate it", except go on the Internet?
You're lazy and if you REALLY believed the stuff you post...you're SUICIDALLY lazy, since obviously if EVERYTHING you've said you believe is true, then we have NO hope in this country from the "Zionist Jesuit fascist take-over"...and you and PLUNGEY would be buying that cabin in the woods of Canada RIGHT NOW!
and when Spring 2008 rolls around and impeachment becomes a virtual impossibility...and you're still here AND switched your focus to McCain or Hillary (whom you only rarely mention)...
I'll KNOW you're a liar and a phoney!
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2007 @ 08:41am
Mask:
Day in and day out you criticise those who bust their hump conducting research in order to educate the likes of you. Perhaps the reason you don't appreciate the effort is that you've never actually done any research of your own.
While challenged to do so repeatedly, you NEVER provide any research of your own to refute ANYTHING posted by Rese or Plunger.
As you point out, the number of data points and revelations revealed is staggering.
SURELY YOU ARE CAPABLE OF DISPROVING JUST ONE OF THESE THOUSANDS OF ACCUSATIONS, WITH FACTS AND LINKS TO SUPPORT YOUR CONTENTIONS.
Otherwise, you are the equivalent of a film critic - taking cheap shots at those who produce the work product - while doing no real work yourself.
Posted by plunger at 01/15/2007 @ 08:51am
Never have I seen a more insipidly unpatriotic television program, and I am ashamed that Keifer Sutherland is attaching himself to it. Given the real-life torture policies of the Bush regime, the show becomes even more frightening. For, as you said, the U.S. has never faced -- and is likely never to face -- a so-called 'ticking time bomb' scenario. But it is more likely that while an innocent person is being tortured, an actual terrorist plot is being overlooked.
Posted by ArchangelM at 01/15/2007 @ 08:55am
OK, feeling better now. I was worried that this essay had attracted such a fierce response. Since I see only 5...
It's a TV show, one I confess I've never seen (SEE! I confess...put the knives away!). And, again without seeing it, I guess it shows that Americans have a thirst for action and violence as entertainment. Wow, that's news, huh?
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/15/2007 @ 09:07am
Last response....RESE, again, you and PLUNGER are phoneys.
If you REALLY believed your own crap taken from that "best library in the world" (where you can also find out about "Elvis sightings" and "David Ickes' theories on how 'The Queen is a Reptilian'")....you'd be cutting off your "paper trail", packing up the kids, and moving to a shanty in Saskatchewan TODAY.
and if not today, by Spring 2008, when it comes down to no impeachment and two candidates which you will UNDOUBTEDLY say are "in on it" as well (especially McCain and Hillary) and you go through ANOTHER eight years of wacko "information" from Wayne Madsen and Greg Syzmanski on what THEY are doing with "the Zionists and Jesuits to install a fascist dicattorship!!!!".
But you won't. You'll sit in your nice suburban houses, surfing the Net, and pressing Control-C and Control-V and considering yourself a "revolutionary in the model of Jefferson and Patrick Henry".
When the truth is...you're lazy. That's why all you do for the "revolution"....is type a FEW keys on a computer keyboard.
Maybe that's why "The Cabal" doesn't send the goon squad over to "render" you to Kazakhstan....they know you're not worth it!
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2007 @ 09:45am
Posted by TJBEHRENS1 01/15/2007 @ 09:07am
What's interesting is....same Fox that ran "TV Nation" by Michael Moore. Sounds like they're pretty open to ANY political persuasion.
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2007 @ 09:49am
Posted by MASK 01/15/2007 @ 09:49am
While it is creepy that the "24" folks had a discussion at Heritage, it is perhaps a better indication of the weakness of the pro-torture side of the argument that they need to allign themselves with the land of fiction. And, you're right...if Fox favored political ideology over profits, The Simpsons would have been cancelled long ago. But I think that Fox is partly to blame for the likes of Rese: where would the conspiracy world be today without Agent Mulder?
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/15/2007 @ 10:03am
I didn't spell alignment with a double "ll" did I? Must have been using Maasch's keyboard.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/15/2007 @ 10:04am
Posted by BRIGHID 01/15/2007 @ 02:52am
I'm not going to watch it just to find out if you're lying.
Posted by fromredbird at 01/15/2007 @ 10:49am
Posted by TJBEHRENS1 01/15/2007 @ 10:03am
Kinda doubt RESE has a hot babe like Gillian Anderson helping him "investigate the World-Wide Cabal"...unless PLUNGEY is a girl with red hair and pouty lips!
And another thing Mr Wiener needs to wrap his mind around....if it wasn't POPULAR, Fox would cancel it.
Odd that the DAY AFTER Ms vanden Heuvel was on "This Week" claiming that "the people were ahead of the politicians on Iraq"....that Mr Wiener is complaining about a show that "the people" are watching and obviously endorsing.
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2007 @ 11:07am
Mask:
Again, all heat (insults) and no light (facts and links).
Are you capable of conducting your own research?
If so, go ahead and post the best links you can find to explain who was behind 9/11 and who actually carried it out.
Posted by plunger at 01/15/2007 @ 11:14am
Its entertainment. Nothing else...but if teh CIA had a guy who they knew placrd a nuke in San Francisco and would talk or say anything but Allah akbahr...what would Pelosi want to do? Being that SF is all peaceful and anti war and military...should we water board Omars ass or hold a anti Bush rally in the cuty center and wait for mushroom cloud?
I know a few who would wait for mushroom cloud and they are not libs.....
Seriously , what would you do?
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 11:23am
Sorry....wouldn't talk or say....
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 11:24am
They wouldnt torture Osama Bin Ladens family, to find out what they know. Do you know anything? No? Thank you very much your highnesses, sorry we had to ask, let me kiss your hand, better fly out of here before anyone asks you any more questions.
Authoritarians deep root inner liking for torture is based on knowing fear of being exposed and accused for their incompetence.
Osama Bin Laden, the Terrorist, surrounded by US Special Forces at Tora Bora, and he just walks right through.
Theyre supposed to be elite. Are there any US Special Forces members here who can explain WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU GUYS? What the fucck is wrong with you guys?
How the hell do you have Osama Bin Laden, surrounded, in a cave, and you guys are SUPPOSED TO BE ELITE.
They say, you got to respect the military, got to respect the military, well how do you respect the ELITES of the military, when a man with a dialysis machine on his back can get past you guys.
Do you have to respect people who claim to be elites, and the biggest terrorist can get past you, YOU HAD HIM SURROUNDED, and he gets away, AND THEN 5 YEARS LATER YOU STILL arent even serious. What a disgrace, what a shame, elites - can you believe that? Hell no.
I wonder if any US Special Forces supporters could possibly have anything to say.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 11:38am
Mikhail, I mean Michael Chertoff, what is wrong with Americas Elite Special Forces, how come that rich brat Osama Bin Laden from a billionaire family, spoiled by luxury all his life, and he OUTSMARTS YOU GUYS. How did you let him get away, US Special Forces? Why cant you protect Americans?
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 11:43am
US Special Forces, having fun with torturing people who didnt do anything, while the BIG terrorist, Osama Bin Laden - they had him surrounded, at Tora Bora. He walks right through and gets away. What is wrong with you guys.
Oh yeah, you got to respect the military. Does that mean we are supposed to respect the ELITES of the military?
Who had Osama Bin Laden surrounded and let him get away?
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 11:46am
"WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU GUYS?"
I was wonderering the sme thing about the Clinton team,... if it is true the the Clintons were offered Bin Laden and he turned it down..or when O North was trying to educate us about Bin Laden then the Dems in that commitee wouldn't let him show his slides and expound on who Bin Laden was and is? Seemed to be more important to Gore and Kennedy back then to burn Reagan...
"What a disgrace, what a shame, elites "
I wonder if you have the balls to say this to those guys to their face....especially if they are allowed to read your posts for the last year or so...:)
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 11:58am
"US Special Forces, having fun with torturing people who didnt do anything,"
How would you know this or anything like this ? How would you really have info on something like this? Why should anyone believe what you believe to have happened by our forces...someone on a far left loon blog site would have access to prove, or any evidence that this occured?
Silliness.
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 12:01pm
John Maasch, if I meet the Commander of the US Special Forces in Afghanistan in 2002, who HAD Osama Bin Laden surrounded,
I will SCREAM in his face, I swear I will, if I ever meet him.
"What is wrong with you". YOU HAD Osama Bin Laden surrounded, in 2002, at Tora Bora. Surrounded means YOUR forces were on all sides of Osama Bin Laden. Osama Bin Laden was "holed up". YOU let him walk through, like it was nothing.
YOU didnt want to torture Osama Bin Ladens family members. YOU let them fly out of the country. Just as Osama Bin Laden himself was allowed to just waltz, through YOUR perimeter. YOU, the elite, the leader of the elite.
There, and I hope you guys ARE reading this. That is my intention with writing this. I want you self-titled elites to understand that I am angry with you for not protecting Americans.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 12:03pm
LP, obviously forgot the Memo "Remember, don't blame the troops, blame Bush and Rummy...if we blame the troops, they can paint us as rabid anti-military guys who hate the military and therefore can't be trusted with defense anymore than the Republicans, and not just that we hate Bush and his failed policies!"
Oh and PLUNGER....here's your link--
The TRUTH is revealed!!!! [youtube.com]
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2007 @ 12:05pm
Mr. and Mrs. Bin Laden family members, sorry to have to ask your highnesses, do you know anything about 911? No? Sorry to bother you, kiss kiss.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 12:06pm
Those who blame the messenger, dont care if the messenger is polite
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 12:08pm
Mask:
I know you'll want an easy to study overview with links to support everything you read.
Read through this site and see if you find any flaws that you can refute with ACTUAL FACTS.
http://plungerspeaks.blogspot.com/
Posted by plunger at 01/15/2007 @ 12:11pm
2002, Tora Bora, Osama Bin Laden, completely surrounded, under seige for weeks, US Special Forces have everything under control, Osama Bin Laden easily escapes, 5 years later, still taunting Americans, roaming free, we still dont know where he is.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 12:12pm
September 2001, Bin Laden family members flying back to Arabia, not questioned, not tortured, not finding out what they know.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 12:14pm
Mask, I am not blaming the US Special Forces. If they are unable to catch Osama Bin Laden even though they have him surrounded, hey, I dont blame them. Alot of people on the golf course cant beat the par and I dont blame them.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 12:17pm
I wonder if you have the balls to say this to those guys to their face....especially if they are allowed to read your posts for the last year or so...:)
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/15/2007 @ 11:58am | ignore this person
What are they going to do, torture me?
I mean, who doesnt respect the US Special Forces? They are charged with protecting Americans. You think I need to be scared they will torture me for freedom of speech?
It is YOU, who does not respect the military.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 12:23pm
I'm sorry...are you BIPOLAR or something?!?!?!?!?
Mask, I am not blaming the US Special Forces. ---Posted by LIBERALPRIDE 01/15/2007 @ 12:17am
US Special Forces, having fun with torturing people who didnt do anything---Posted by LIBERALPRIDE 01/15/2007 @ 11:46am
So you're "not blaming them"...for "torturing people who didnt do anything"!?!?!!?!?!?!?
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2007 @ 12:25pm
Its entertainment. Nothing else
oh, the freshman mind. how does one maintain with such shallow thoughts? if art is merely entertainment, then why does everyone in media scramble around LA seeking to sell their souls for it? why does rupert murdoch drop 10 billion for myspace? and google the same for youtube? and at&t merge with southern bell? and time warner merge with cnn? disney and abc? there are many calculated decisions being made behind the scenes NOT to indoctrinate people (no, that's the conspiracy theorists' belief), but to repeat and enforce the status quo. just flick on the news any night of the week, and you'll hear the same epistemological assumptions made by every beltway pundit (one example: every network is calling this a troop "surge", when in fact, the white house hasn't made a single statement which would indicate that the "surge" was only temporary. a surge, by its very nature, cannot be indefinite. it's a jolt of electricity, not a constant, indefinite stream.)
this is why we have self-awareness, john. something you need to understand before you open your mouth and make a fool of yourself every morning. why don't you come out to california and get some, nebraska has clearly kept the blinders on you.
Posted by darladoon at 01/15/2007 @ 12:34pm
Lib,
Mask posted before I was able...now, what was that about ME not respecting the Forces? I know some..do you? And I would like you to give that torture jibberish to them to their face.....
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 12:35pm
and before anyone continues the san francisco bashing. in retrospect, the hippie caucus was right about every war since after WWII, afghanistan included.
Posted by darladoon at 01/15/2007 @ 12:37pm
John Maasch excuses the US Special Forces for letting Osama Bin Laden escape from Tora Bora in early 2002, never to be pursued.
He says Bill Clinton had a chance to catch Osama Bin Laden. You claim that Bill Clinton fuccked up really really bad. What year was that? How come you Right Wingers never said anything about it back then? How come you Right Wingers never stopped talking about Monica Lewinsky for years on end except to put out The Cox Report which you guys didnt even read, and you never impeached Bill Clinton for anything other than lying about getting a blowjob.
US Special Forces had Osama Bin Laden completely surrounded in 2002, and he easily escaped, and has not been pursued.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 12:40pm
Again, John Maasch, why should I be afraid that the US Special Forces will torture me for freedom of speech? More likely theyll perceive my point and agree with it.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 12:41pm
"how does one maintain with such shallow thoughts? "
I have been curious about this regsrding you myself...its a TV show..DD...a TV show.....on FOX,.... why would you or any other lib believe anything on FOX..apostacy..NO?
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 12:42pm
"and before anyone continues the san francisco bashing. in retrospect, the hippie caucus was right about every war since after WWII, afghanistan included.
Posted by DARLADOON 01/15/2007 @ 12:37am "
OH.
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 12:43pm
Mask, I repeat myself. "Mask, I am not blaming the US Special Forces. If they are unable to catch Osama Bin Laden even though they have him surrounded, hey, I dont blame them. Alot of people on the golf course cant beat the par and I dont blame them."
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 12:43pm
completely surrounded
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 12:44pm
According to John Maasch, INNOCENT Americans who express free speech need to be afraid that US Special Forces will torture them.
But Osama Bin Laden, completely surrounded at Tora Bora in 2002? Apparently NOTHING to worry about.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 12:48pm
Bin Laden family members? Do they need to be worried about being detained and questioned? NO... But, innocent Americans who express legally protected free speech, John Maasch says the US Special Forces might torture us.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 12:50pm
"Again, John Maasch, why should I be afraid that the US Special Forces will torture me for freedom of speech?'
I don't believe for a moment they would torture you, but I do think they mught have some fun with you...and when you came to, I am sure you would run to your lawyers...not many of the SP guys I met have had much positive to say about the lib agendas..see, I don't think they buy your "I support the troops but not the war double speak.."
As far as this
"He says Bill Clinton had a chance to catch Osama Bin Laden. You claim that Bill Clinton fuccked up really really bad. What year was that? How come you Right Wingers never said anything about it back then? How come you Right Wingers never stopped talking about Monica Lewinsky for years on end except to put out The Cox Report which you guys didnt even read, and you never impeached Bill Clinton for anything other than lying about getting a blowjob. "
I csan't find it any where in what I posted...maybe you read some one else..
I did ask this.. "I was wonderering the same thing about the Clinton team,... if it is true the the Clintons were offered Bin Laden and he turned it down..or when O North was trying to educate us about Bin Laden then the Dems in that commitee wouldn't let him show his slides and expound on who Bin Laden was and is?"
I am still wondering..
And as far as lying about a blowjob? It doesn't matter what he was lying about..it was on tape and proven true...Billy could have very easily said, Yeah, me and ther cigar..next question,...don't blame me for Clinton getting caught on tape lying and paying the price for it..facts is facts...
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 12:51pm
"But, innocent Americans who express legally protected free speech, John Maasch says the US Special Forces might torture us. "
I said this?... where?..thats why I label you guys loons...I can't find this anywhere in any ones post..
PMS day for you?
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 12:53pm
"Alot of people on the golf course cant beat the par and I dont blame them."...????????????????
Loon.
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 12:54pm
When are right wingers going to leave Monica Lewinsky alone?
There was no cigar. Monica Lewinsky said there was a cigar, Bill Clinton said there was no cigar. Therefore, the cigar is neither here, 5 years after Osama Bin Laden easily escaped from Tora Bora. Nor was the cigar there, when Clinton supposedly fuccked up so bad not catching Osama Bin Laden that NONE of you can even tell me what year this even supposedly happened. Nor did right wingers impeach Bill Clinton for allowing Osama Bin Laden to get away, right wingers impeached Bill Clinton for lying about a blowjob.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 1:01pm
I don't believe for a moment they would torture you, but I do think they mught have some fun with you...and when you came to
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/15/2007 @ 12:51am | ignore this person
So you are saying, that for expressing free speech, Americans need to worry that the US Special Forces charged with protecting them, charged with protecting American priciples such as free speech, they are going to beat you unconscious?
US Special Forces may not have caught Osama Bin Laden, but that does not mean they are against free speech. That does not mean that they unlawfully beat Americans unconscious for free speech.
MASK was just saying, how can I say that US Special Forces torture innocent people. Well Mask, John Maasch says they do torture people - even Americans who havent done anything.
I disagree. The US Special Forces is not going to track me down through the internet, and come after me and beat me up over free speech. John Maasch says they will. I'll give you 20 to 1 they dont. US Special Forces are charged with protecting Americans. US Special Forces DO NOT beat up Americans over free speech.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 1:08pm
I am not going to hurt the US Special Forces. The drill sergeant, when you fucck up an excercise, he tells you that you are a disgrace. It isnt to hurt you, but to make you strong. Now, when you fucck up in real life, at Tora Bora, you know.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 1:09pm
LP, any reason you can't stick to ONE charge against the USSF at a time?
You SAID "torturing people who didn't do anything"....and THEN you said "I'm not blaming the Special Forces"....so you DON'T blame them for torturing people who didn't do anything?!?!???!
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2007 @ 1:35pm
the hippie caucus was right about every war since after WWII, afghanistan included.
Posted by DARLADOON 01/15/2007 @ 12:37
So, uh....who and WHERE was the "hippie caucus" on ....the Korean War?!??!?!??!
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2007 @ 1:36pm
Mask, talk to John Maasch, HE says the US Special Forces "beat Americans unconscious" for legally protected free speech.
You go ahead and dont be made that these elite forces let Osama Bin Laden get away. I am very upset about it. I think that the US Special Forces, when they had Osama Bin Laden COMPLETELY SURROUNDED, at Tora Bora in 2002, they SHOULD HAVE captured or killed him. I am very angry with whoever fuccked up and failed to protect Americans. I am angry that someone who fuccks up on something like that, still calls themself elite.
YOU want this to be about me accusing the US Special Forces of torturing innocent people. YOU talk to John Maasch about it, because he says they do, he says, they beat Americans unconscious for protected free speech.
YOU dont want this to be about WHY did Osama Bin Laden escape so dammn easy. He was COMPLETELY surrounded. He was completely surrounded, he was completely surrounded. He escaped. He was completely surrounded by the "elite", he was completely surrounded by US Special Forces, holed up, at Tora Bora in 2002. YOU dont want to talk about this.
YOU dont want to talk about, WHY WERENT the Bin Laden family members flown to Guantanamo, detained, and interrogated to find out what they know. The Bin Laden family, not questioned. The Bin Laden family, flown out of the country before they faced embarrassment. The Bin Laden family, not tortured, not interrogated, not questioned, not detained.
Excuse me, Bin Ladens? Sorry to bother you. Sorry to have to ask. If I may please ask your highnesses, do you know anything about your younger brother? No? Okay! Really sorry to bother your highnesses, please have a pleasant flight back to Arabia. YOU dont want to talk about that.
I DO, I am upset about it, and I DONT CARE WHAT John Maasch says, I am not scared that the US Special Forces will beat me unconscious.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 1:47pm
Don't get hysterical LP. He did say "mught", which I assume means might.
Maybe he didn't mean they would beat you unconcious, only that they were the type of people, who would find that to be a fun activity?
Eric
Posted by Malcontent at 01/15/2007 @ 1:49pm
YOU want this to be about me accusing the US Special Forces of torturing innocent people. YOU talk to John Maasch about it, because he says they do...----Posted by LIBERALPRIDE 01/15/2007 @ 1:47pm
LP.....lying?!?!?!?!!?
This is the first post here by JOHN MAASCH--
Its entertainment. Nothing else...but if teh CIA had a guy who they knew placrd a nuke in San Francisco and would talk or say anything but Allah akbahr...what would Pelosi want to do? Being that SF is all peaceful and anti war and military...should we water board Omars ass or hold a anti Bush rally in the cuty center and wait for mushroom cloud?
I know a few who would wait for mushroom cloud and they are not libs.....
Seriously , what would you do?
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/15/2007 @ 11:23am ----------------------------------------------
Now, this is the post by YOU that followed it--
US Special Forces, having fun with torturing people who didnt do anything, while the BIG terrorist, Osama Bin Laden - they had him surrounded, at Tora Bora. He walks right through and gets away. What is wrong with you guys.
Oh yeah, you got to respect the military. Does that mean we are supposed to respect the ELITES of the military?
Who had Osama Bin Laden surrounded and let him get away?
Posted by LIBERALPRIDE 01/15/2007 @ 11:46am
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2007 @ 2:12pm
Mask, IF YOU LIKE having Elite US Special Forces that JUST LET Osama Bin Laden get away, AFTER they had him completely surrounded...
Fine, IF YOU LIKE having Osama Bin Ladens family members politely flown out of the country without being questioned to find out what they know about their younger brother...
FINE. IF YOU AGREE with John Maasch, when HE SAYS that US Special Forces beat Americans unconscious for free speech,
Fine, I dont. I want US Special Forces, when they have Osama Bin Laden SURROUNDED, HOLED UP, at Tora Bora in 2002, are you following this simple concept? I DO NOT want them to let Osama Bin Laden WALTZ through the perimeter they set up. I DO NOT WANT Osama Bin Laden roaming free, not pursued, for the last 5 years, BECAUSE THEY let him get away.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 2:28pm
I don't believe for a moment they would torture you, but I do think they mught have some fun with you...and when you came to
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/15/2007 @ 12:51am | ignore this person
"When you came to" is a phrase which, in English means, "when you regain consciousness". Something about the fun John Maasch expects US Special Forces to have with Americans who express free speech, would render me unconscious. What renders people unconscious? Blows to the head. What the fucck are you talking about?
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 2:30pm
Special Forces - why did you let Osama Bin Laden get away, you had him surrounded completely and he just walks on through, in 2002, at Tora Bora, in Afghanistan. He is not being pursued to this day.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 2:31pm
Ok. Youre elite. Youre the best of the best. Youre charged with protecting Americans.
The biggest terrorist. Osama Bin Laden. Holed Up. Completely Surrounded. By the elite. Completely surrounded by the elite. Holed up by the elite. Inside a perimeter, holed up, surrounded by elite forces. The best of the best. The elite. The worst terrorist. Surrounded. Completely surrounded.
Easily escapes. Not pursued. 5 years later. Mask doesnt want to talk about it.
The Bin Laden family. Billionaires from Arabia. Living in America. Relatives of Osama Bin Laden. Brothers of Osama Bin Laden. Sisters of Osama Bin Laden. NOT TORTURED. NOT QUESTIONED. Not finding out what they know. Not sent to Guantanamo. Not questioned. Allowed to leave without answering questions. Not questioned about their younger brother. Allowed to leave. Not tortured.
Meanwhile at Tora Bora Osama Bin Laden easily escapes.
Meanwhile in America John Maasch believes that US Special Forces will beat you half to death if you express free speech.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 2:38pm
Elite. Best of best. Osama Bin Laden. #1 Terrorist. Completely surrounded. 2002. Tora Bora. Easily escapes. Not pursued. 5 years later. Not pursued.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 2:42pm
Elite. Special. Surrounded. Completely. Osama. Escapes. Easily.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 2:45pm
2001. September. Bin Ladens. Family. From America. Flown out. Not questioned.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 2:46pm
John Maasch. Says. Special Forces. Beat up. Americans. For free speech.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 2:47pm
I am becoming a special education teacher.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 2:48pm
LP,
you are truely looney..
"John Maasch. Says. Special Forces. Beat up. Americans. For free speech."..
I have never said anything remotely like this loon speak.
No not for exercising free speech ....I was making a cynical point about your liberal views...they are not appreciated by the SP I have met. Plain and simple. As for unconcious...I think you might be punched out, and maybe not....try it, find some SP guys who just came back from there and give them your little blog post verbally and lets see who is wrong or right?
I 'll film it if you want.. Liberal pride...yikes..oxymoron.
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 3:04pm
Posted by LIBERALPRIDE 01/15/2007 @ 2:28pm
Oh, I GET it....you CAN'T go back and defend what you say...so....
you pretend like you never said it!
DON'T LOOK!!!!!
"US Special Forces, having fun with torturing people who didnt do anything,..."----Posted by LIBERALPRIDE 01/15/2007 @ 11:46am
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2007 @ 3:10pm
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/15/2007 @ 3:04pm
He has so much "pride"....
he can't admit when he's wrong!
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2007 @ 3:11pm
"Oh, I GET it....you CAN'T go back and defend what you say...so.... "
No, you don't get it..thats the point..
I don't have to defend anything...it all right there..
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 3:19pm
Mask,
LP stumbled into his own poop.
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 3:20pm
A TV Show with an apparent "conservative" type bias....this is the source of the complaint?
Good Lord
Posted by CPT at 01/15/2007 @ 3:20pm
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/15/2007 @ 3:19pm
Slight goof on that one JOHN...that was my post referring to LP, not him referring to you.
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2007 @ 3:30pm
I've tried to sit through a season of "24" a couple of times, but have only managed to catch an episode or two of the show.
I'm quite aware that it's totally fictionalized entertainment for one reason: In three of the five seasons that it's been on, the President has been a black man.
Of course, in one of those seasons, President Palmer (who's now selling Allstate Insurance oddly enough), got assasinated, but life's still not imitating art. Although, it did make me think of that scene in Eddie Murphy's "Delirious" HBO special in which he talks about how the first black president in the United States would have to deliver all of his speeches running to avoid a Klan bullet.
While I would hope that our government wouldn't discourage the kinds of borderline cartoonish violence that Jack Bauer gets the perpetrate on a regular basis, I could see why those who think torture as a means of interrogation is a good idea would latch onto the show. It looks effective on television.
As for Keifer Sutherland's desire to portray this guy two words: job security. There aren't a lot of meaty roles in Hollywood for guys that look like they've been through a woodchipper. He's just taking the work that's been given. I don't think he necessarily goes around looking for kneecaps to remove.
Posted by edwriter at 01/15/2007 @ 4:04pm
I don't believe for a moment they would torture you, but I do think they mught have some fun with you...and when you came to
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/15/2007 @ 12:51am | ignore this person
I have never said anything remotely like this loon speak...
Plain and simple. As for unconcious...I think you might be punched out...
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/15/2007 @ 3:04pm | ignore this person
So what makes you think these elite guys, who cant catch Osama Bin Laden EVEN when they have him completely surrounded, at Tora Bora, in Afghanistan, in 2002,
How are they going to be able to punch out law-abiding Americans over free speech?
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 4:04pm
I'm sorry, I just noticed a typo. It should read "gets to perpetrate".
Posted by edwriter at 01/15/2007 @ 4:05pm
Mask, simple questions:
Are US Special Forces torturing people? Yes or No?
Do US Special Forces beat up Americans for free speech, as John Maasch claims? Yes or No?
Did Osama Bin Laden have difficulty escaping, when he was surrounded by US Special Forces at Tora Bora, in 2002? Yes or No?
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 4:06pm
I must have been in a hurry to get back to work because I had to spend all of my time reading posts from Rese to get to the end of this blog. (Please oh please, start a website!) I just noticed another typo. I meant to say "encourage" instead of "discourage".
Posted by edwriter at 01/15/2007 @ 4:07pm
US Special Forces. Tora Bora. 2002.
Osama Bin Laden. Surrounded. Escapes. Not pursued.
GREAT JOB, US Special Forces.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 4:09pm
Osama Bin Laden. 5 years ago. Surrounded. By US Special Forces.
Today. Whereabouts unknown. Taunting Americans. Not pursued.
Tora Bora. 2002. COMPLETELY SURROUNDED. Escapes. Escapes easily.
Osama Bin Laden. #1 Terrorist. Escapes. Completely surrounded.
Elite Troops. Surrounded. Escapes easily.
Elite Troops. Surrounded. Escapes easily.
Tora Bora. 2002. US Special Forces. GREAT JOB.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 4:11pm
Osama Bin Laden. #1 Terrorist. Over 3000 Americans. Killed.
Allowed to go free.
Surrounded. Tora Bora. 2002. Escapes. Easily. Elite troops.
THANKS GUYS. I really respect you "elite" guys. Thanks guys.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 4:12pm
Bin Laden family. Flown out of USA on 9/13/2001. Not questioned. To find out what they know. Not interrogated. To find out about any ticking time bombs. Not tortured. Not questioned. Not investigated. Flown back to Arabia. 9/13/01.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 4:13pm
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 4:17pm
US Special Forces, having fun with torturing people who didnt do anything, while the BIG terrorist, Osama Bin Laden - they had him surrounded, at Tora Bora. He walks right through and gets away. What is wrong with you guys.
Posted by LIBERALPRIDE 01/15/2007 @ 11:46am | ignore this person
Yes I said it and I pointedly meant, and stand by, every single word.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 4:18pm
The next time Osama Bin Laden is holed up, completely surrounded, instead of letting him get away, please bring him to justice. Americans WANT OSAMA BIN LADEN TO DIE FOR WHAT HE DID.
Not roam free with his family on a pass from George Bush.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 4:21pm
1) The pro-terrorist position:
Mask: "its ok for US Special Forces to let Osama Bin Laden get away when they have him surrounded"
John Maasch: "its ok for US Special Forces to beat up innocent Americans over free speech, BUT DONT ASK THE BIN LADEN FAMILY ANY QUESTIONS and just fly them back to Arabia on 9/13/01"
2) The anti-terrorist position:
LiberalPride: "US Special Forces should protect law-abiding Americans and bring Osama Bin Laden to justice"
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 4:44pm
I'm going to buy Liberal Pride a puppy, something he can talk to endlessly without causing blood to pour from its ears.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/15/2007 @ 5:30pm
"I'm going to buy Liberal Pride a puppy, something he can talk to endlessly without causing blood to pour from its ears."
I am telling PETA on you...
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 6:01pm
Forget LP...its over...no cure..
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 6:02pm
US Special Forces HAD: Osama Bin Laden: Surrounded: Completely.
Osama Bin Laden: Escaped: Easily: And has not been pursued.
NO CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN AUTHORITARIAN WANTS TO TALK ABOUT THIS: MY POINT.
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 6:22pm
What is it about Conservative Authoritarians, that they cant simply support the idea that the US Special Forces, when they have Osama Bin Laden surrounded, they should not allow him to escape?
Why are no Conservatives able to agree with this?
Why cant you agree: Osama Bin Laden should be brought to justice?
Why do Conservatives approve of allowing Osama Bin Laden to escape?
Why do Republicans want to applaud elite Special Forces, who cant catch the #1 terrorist, even when they have him completely surrounded?
Why do Republicans want to continue to allow Osama Bin Laden to run free?
Why will Republicans not crticize the fucckups who let him get away?
What is wrong with saying: "The next time all of Bin Ladens relatives are in America, they ought to be questioned, find out about any ticking time bombs they know about"
What is wrong with saying: "The Bin Ladens ought to be questioned"
What is wrong with saying: "When Osama Bin Laden is allowed to escape, that is bad"
Why do Republicans support letting Osama Bin Laden escape?
Come on, Republicans: take the challenge. Repeat after me. "I wish Osama Bin Laden should have been captured or killed."
Why not?
Posted by LiberalPride at 01/15/2007 @ 6:31pm
LP,
Frontline last week ran an updated piece on the Pakistan border and went into the question of getting Bin Laden and why it has been so tough...
I forget the title, but, it is PBS and caertainly no Bush fan,.. it was an updated or revisited edition..
you might find it enlighteneing..and then you can stop the foolish posts...it will explain to you what happened there..and still is..
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 6:39pm
As an American I think Bin Laden should be tortured....is that good enough for you Lib?
Posted by john maasch at 01/15/2007 @ 6:40pm
I'm going to buy Liberal Pride a puppy, something he can talk to endlessly without causing blood to pour from its ears.
Posted by TJBEHRENS1 01/15/2007 @ 5:30pm
Well, what he's saying IS rational. For that reason alone it's a lot different than what MAASCH and MASK post here all the time.
LIBERALPRIDE: Yes- the kind of people represented by the Republican Party are more interested in sending the US Special Forces after American liberals than they are in sending them after Osama Bin Laden. But . . . that isn't exactly breaking news.
Posted by fromredbird at 01/15/2007 @ 7:18pm
"at least one big torture scene per episode" HA. Someone has neither bothered to watch the new 24, nor report the accurate "facts," but this is spin-journalism. So who cares about facts when you're just trying to make a point. Right?
Posted by romaneagle at 01/16/2007 @ 12:03am
holy crap! what the hell? rese, plunger? u guys ok?
about this enbedding us troops in iraqi auxiliaries...bad idea...
varus! give me my legions!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 01/16/2007 @ 02:36am
Frontline last week ran an updated piece on the Pakistan border and went into the question of getting Bin Laden and why it has been so tough...
I forget the title, but, it is PBS and caertainly no Bush fan,.. it was an updated or revisited edition..
you might find it enlighteneing..and then you can stop the foolish posts...it will explain to you what happened there..and still is..
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/15/2007 @ 6:39pm
I saw that, too, and am glad you understand better just why it is important to keep one's nose out of centuries old border and clan disputes that are of no concern to us. I did not support the invasion of Afghanistan but certainly supported the manhunt for bin Laden. Everything else we have done there has been a waste of time, money and blood. That no one in the administration understands this is just pathetic.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/16/2007 @ 1:26pm
Memo for Judge Posner: Nobody who has trouble distinguishing between fantasy and reality should be in a position of responsibility. Least of all should they be a federal judge.
Posted by maddox at 01/16/2007 @ 8:54pm