Hawkish New Commander for Iraq

Several people have been writing fairly glowing accounts of the "brainy" and essentially anti-inflammatory approach the US military's new command team in Iraq, Gen. David Petraeus and his number two, Lt.-Gen. Ray Odierno , may bring to their work there. Okay, to be fair, most of these accounts have centered on Petraeus-- who has, I should note, long cultivated his relationship with the press. Thus, we have had Juan Cole : "Petraeus is among the real experts on counter-insurgency, and did a fine job... when he was in charge of Mosul"; Trudy Rubin : "one of the Army's smartest and most creative generals", and many others...

However, very few of these people in Petraeus's personal cheering section seem to have dug much deeper-- either into Petraeus's own strategic thought, as reflected in the new counter-insurgency manual he helped write during his latest gig as commander of the army's "Combined Arms Center" in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas; or into the professional record of the man who will be in charge of day-to-day operations in Iraq under his leadership, Ray Odierno .

A first stab at understanding what Odierno might bring to his new job should start with the record of his service as commander of the 4th Infantry Division during its time in Iraq, March 2003 through April 2004. The WaPo's Thom Ricks wrote a lot about that at the time, and has included a lot of information about Odierno in his recent book Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq If you have a copy of the book, then go first to pp. 232-4, and then to pp.279-91. If you don't have a copy, you could go to that Amazon.com link there, and do a "Search inside the book" for either "Odierno" or "H & I".

H&I, short for "Harrassment and Interdiction" was just one of the aggressive tactics Odierno used in the portion of the Sunni Triangle where the 4th ID was operating...

On p. 234, Ricks refers to an article Odierno later published in Field Artillery magazine:

He wrote that he often responded with heavy firepower: "We used our Paladins [155 millimeter self-propelled howitzer systems] the entire time we were there," he said [probably, "wrote", not "said" ~HC]. "Most nights we fired H&I fires... what I call 'proactive' counter-fire." His conclusion was that "artillery plays a significant role in counter-insurgency operations." That assertion is at odds with the great body of successful counterinsurgency practice, which holds that firepower should be as restrained as possible, which is difficult to do with the long-range, indirect fire of artillery.

It should go without saying that there is no such thing as "counter-" fire that is "proactive", i.e., pre-emptive. Basically, what Odierno was writing about there was a mode of operating inside Iraq that included going around firing wildly with some pretty heavy artillery pieces simply to "harrass" and, often pre-emptively, "interdict" any suspected or possibly even quite imaginary opponents. (Okay, that was just about the same thing that Bush did in ordering the whole invasion of Iraq, in the first place. To that extent, we could certainly note the unity of approach between the commander-in-chief and Ray Odierno, at that time.)

Over the pages that followed that quote, Ricks also writes a lot about the lethal, esclatory excesses committed by one of the brigade commanders working under Odierno in the 4th ID, Col. David Hogg. That portion of the book is worth reading, too.

On p.232-3, Ricks writes of the 4th ID under Odierno,

Again and again, internal Army reports and commanders in iterviews said that this unit-- a heavy armored division, despite its name-- used ham-fisted approaches that may have appeared to pacify its area in the short term, but in the process alienated large parts of the population.

"The 4th ID was bad," said one Army intelligence officer who worked with them. "These guys are looking for a fight," he remembered thinking. "I saw so many instances of abuses of civilians, intimidating civilians, our jaws dropped."

"Fourth ID fueled the insurgency," added an Army psychological operations officer...

"they are going through neighborhoods, knocking on doors at two in the morning without actionable intelligence," said a senior officer. "That's how you create new insurgents."

A general who served in Iraq, speaking on background, said flatly, "The 4th ID-- what they did was a crime."

So here's my question: Why on earth should we be expected to believe that Ray Odierno-- a man who spent the vast majority of his career rising up inside the "massive land force" portions of the US Army-- has had a complete character/professional makeover since April 2004, and that he is now going to go into Iraq with Petraeus and conduct any kind of a "brainy", culturally and politically sensitive counter-insurgency campaign?

(I'm planning to expand some on the Petraeus part of this topic over at my blog Just World News , within the next couple of hours.)

Comments (65)

1. Petraeus and Ray Odierno were chosen for one reason....they'll support "the Surge"...everybody knows it.

   And Bush can AGAIN claim he's "listening to the commanders on the ground"...where as before he wasn't (when they opposed the Surge)....where as before that, he was (when anything bad was happening in Iraq).

   Posted by Mask at 01/10/2007 @ 11:53am

2. More drivvle from Hyacinth Bucket, er, Bouquet.

   Posted by woodyee at 01/10/2007 @ 11:56am

3. The United States will never defeat the insurgency in Iraq. No invading country will ever defeat an insurgency half a world away from its homeland. Ever.

   Posted by Pitviper at 01/10/2007 @ 12:44pm

4. I forgot to add: Victory to the people of Iraq.

   Posted by Pitviper at 01/10/2007 @ 12:45pm

5. Ray Odierno sounds like just the moron chimpy was looking for to agree with him. Don't tell these imbeciles that collective punishment didn't work for the nazis. They'll say it's not fair to use the n-word when everyone knows that the chimp brigade has developed all-new and improved names for collective punishment and the panoply of other nazi methods.

   Posted by fromredbird at 01/10/2007 @ 12:51pm

6. "No invading country will ever defeat an insurgency half a world away from its homeland. Ever."

   So, are we fighting an insugency or are we fighting Iraqis...or are the insurgents fighting Iraqis or are Iraqis fighting Iraqis...?

   So, then are we fighting all of them? or just some of them?

   What happens if we stop and just watch? Will we then fight the Iranians?

   Posted by john maasch at 01/10/2007 @ 12:53pm

7. Iran has been the big beneficiary of the Iraq war, in that their enemy has been all but destroyed, and a hostile regime has been replaced by a client regime, in that the current gov't of Iraq consists of exiles who lived in and were supported by Iran. meanwhile the attackers of the WTC have gone unattacked and unpunished. bait and switch.

   Posted by johannesrolf at 01/10/2007 @ 12:58pm

8. More drivvle from Hyacinth Bucket, er, Bouquet.

   Posted by WOODYEE 01/10/2007 @ 11:56am | ignore this person

   mind the lorry, Richard

   Posted by johannesrolf at 01/10/2007 @ 1:01pm

9. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/10/2007 @ 12:53am | ignore this person

   all of the above.

   Posted by johannesrolf at 01/10/2007 @ 1:08pm

10. Then perhaps we should arm all sides, wait it out, and help the victor?

    Posted by john maasch at 01/10/2007 @ 1:13pm

11. Yes, by all means, let's enable more killers with more weapons in a region where they're as likely (if not more) to shoot at U.S. troops than one another.

    Brilliant, Maasch.

    You're a kook.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 1:16pm

12. :)

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 1:16pm

13. ND,

    Remember....I built the section and am assigning seats..

    wait till they get the bill..

    :)

    Posted by john maasch at 01/10/2007 @ 1:20pm

14. I watch the updated Frontline last nite...we are under attack...and I think it is just begining...Iraq is just a focal point...there are more ...and more are coming and I do not think for 1 moment it is because we went to Iraq...this has been building for a long time..maybe, pre-colonial, even..

    Posted by john maasch at 01/10/2007 @ 1:23pm

15. An excellent editorial from the latest Chronicle:

    A surge too far

    Wednesday, January 10, 2007

    THERE IS nothing novel, and certainly nothing magical, about President Bush's plan to send a surge of troops into Baghdad to stabilize the Iraqi capital. It has been tried twice, with Iraqi troops, in "Operation Together Forward" -- and it failed.

    One of the president's burdens tonight will be to try to persuade an increasingly skeptical American public that another infusion of troops into Baghdad could be the turning point in a war that has claimed more than 3,000 American lives and consumed more than $100 billion a year since the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003. He will be making his case for escalation at a time when the instincts of many citizens -- and the considered judgment of a bipartisan study group of American elders in public policy -- suggest that it's time to phase out, not intensify, the U.S. military's role in a vicious civil war.

    The notion that the Iraqi leadership needs just a few months of tranquility to begin fulfilling the Bush vision of national reconciliation and government competence was contradicted by the grotesque scenes of Saddam Hussein's execution. If ever there was a moment in which the new government could be in complete control, that was it. The deposed Hussein was bound and benign, and the U.S. provided security and transportation to make sure the process was sealed from any possible threat from the insurgents. But the clandestine cameras -- whose very presence was testament to the unruliness of Iraq in even the most "controlled" situation -- captured the ugliness of the taunts, the bloodlust and the sectarian strife.

    Now, Bush wants to take us deeper into this conflict, lining the streets of Baghdad with U.S. troops.

    There is, of course, a distinct possibility that the presence of up to 20,000 of the best-trained soldiers on the planet will lead to a short-term lull in the insurgency. If so, what will it really mean? Will it mean the insurgents gave up? Will they take their fight elsewhere in Iraq? Or will they merely be waiting out the surge?

    There is an equally strong possibility that a concentration of our troops in Baghdad will make them targets for engagement and the casualty rate will rise. What will Bush do then: Send more troops?

    In preparing to authorize the surge, Bush is defying two mantras that have guided him throughout this war of choice. One is that he heeds the judgment of the generals in the field. Both Gen. John Abizaid, the top U.S. commander of the Middle East, and Gen. George Casey, the chief commander in Iraq, have expressed their clear skepticism about a troop increase. Now each is being rotated out, quite conveniently for the White House policy. But their admonitions echo loudly.

    Moreover, Bush repeatedly proclaims his deep respect and concern for the troops who are serving this country in the treacherous terrain of Iraq. But, remember, much of this "surge" will come by extending the tours of duty of combat brigades in Iraq. The strain on already overextended forces will further diminish the ability of our military to respond to crises elsewhere -- and the exploitation of the dedication of these young men and women will only complicate future recruitment.

    The Democrats, who now control both houses of Congress, must challenge this ill-advised attempt to escalate an ill-conceived war gone awry.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 1:25pm

16. I watch the updated Frontline last nite...we are under attack...and I think it is just begining...Iraq is just a focal point...there are more ...and more are coming and I do not think for 1 moment it is because we went to Iraq...this has been building for a long time..maybe, pre-colonial, even..

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/10/2007 @ 1:23pm

    What's been building, John? A war between Islam and the West?

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 1:26pm

17. ND,

    Remember....I built the section and am assigning seats..

    wait till they get the bill..

    :)

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/10/2007 @ 1:20pm

    You took it upon yourself to classify, corral, and force others to take seats in a ramshackle contraption you built on your own initiative, and now, you're going to bill others for it?

    You're a kook.

    :)

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 1:29pm

18. Both Gen. John Abizaid, the top U.S. commander of the Middle East, and Gen. George Casey, the chief commander in Iraq, have expressed their clear skepticism about a troop increase. Now each is being rotated out, quite conveniently for the White House policy. But their admonitions echo loudly.

    Posted by NEW DAWN 01/10/2007 @ 1:25pm

    ND, what's fascinating about this is....CPT was PRAISING Abizaid and Casey just a while back, saying that they knew what they were doing and their proclamations of victories were impeccable...while those ex-generals opposing the war were "out of the loop" and didn't know the "real situation on the ground".

    Now that Casey and Abizaid are ousted and Petraeus and Odierno are in...how soon until CPT (and the others) change their minds and start saying that Casey and Abizaid were "dead wrong about more troops" and only Petraeus and Odierno know the "real situation on the ground"?

    Posted by Mask at 01/10/2007 @ 1:37pm

19. ND,

    No I am providing a necessary service to better mankind..and it will be better for all..I am sure I can get a grant..

    Yeah, Islam and the West..the focal point for years might have been Europe, but they have been neutered by wars and their own passive policys, so that the France model ..well doesn't need to surrender, it melted..we, the US are the enemy that stands in the way of Islamic Power Growth...expansion, if you will...I think only ruthlessness will stop it and only China and India would be ruthless enough..

    I unno..just thinking out loud..

    Posted by john maasch at 01/10/2007 @ 1:39pm

20. ND, what's fascinating about this is....CPT was PRAISING Abizaid and Casey just a while back, saying that they knew what they were doing and their proclamations of victories were impeccable...while those ex-generals opposing the war were "out of the loop" and didn't know the "real situation on the ground".

    Now that Casey and Abizaid are ousted and Petraeus and Odierno are in...how soon until CPT (and the others) change their minds and start saying that Casey and Abizaid were "dead wrong about more troops" and only Petraeus and Odierno know the "real situation on the ground"?

    Posted by MASK 01/10/2007 @ 1:37pm

    Everyone who disagrees with the monstrously pigheaded and bad-for-America GWB gets "rotated out".

    CPT? While I do believe he wants what's best for America, in spite of his good intentions he just doesn't have a clue what that is, and certainly not in terms of military strategy or foreign policy.

    CPT will no sooner admit that he's been dead wrong on Iraq any more than any of the rest of the Bush cabal - the nobility in being honest enough to admit one's own mistakes is completely alien to these folks.

    It's sad, especially when the cost of bullishly pushing on with the mistake is more American lives.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 1:55pm

21. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/10/2007 @ 1:39pm

    "No I am providing a necessary service to better mankind..and it will be better for all..I am sure I can get a grant.."

    No, you are only publicly pleasuring yourself with what you perceive to be your stunning wit. No one asked you for your help.

    And get a grant? From who? The people and institutions you so despise or helping others?

    "Yeah, Islam and the West..the focal point for years might have been Europe, but they have been neutered by wars and their own passive policys, so that the France model ..well doesn't need to surrender, it melted..we, the US are the enemy that stands in the way of Islamic Power Growth...expansion, if you will...I think only ruthlessness will stop it and only China and India would be ruthless enough.."

    Ruthlessness is not the answer to anything, John. Has it not gotten through to you yet that the things that we've done thus far that even seemed ruthless have only made more people hate our guts?

    Haditha, Falluja, torture, Abu Graib, the list goes on and on - not learning from our mistakes would be the surest sign of stupidity...

    Be more ruthless? How ruthless? More massacres? Bigger bombs? Nukes?

    The only thing these are solutions to is the race to the bottom.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 2:02pm

22. Good to see John Maaschs worldview is falling apart, he has a big neon sign on all his posts that says: "my worldview is falling apart". Just let it go, it will do you some good, whatever reasoning it takes to get rid of self-limiting extremism in the face of growing anger at what Authoritarian Republican Conservatives have done, then maybe get back to your religion or beliefs with an appreciation towards peace, accountability, and adherence to international law and order. This may seem tall, but not once the bricks are out of the way.

    Posted by LiberalPride at 01/10/2007 @ 2:16pm

23. Be more ruthless? How ruthless? More massacres? Bigger bombs? Nukes?

    The only thing these are solutions to is the race to the bottom.

    Posted by NEW DAWN 01/10/2007 @ 2:02pm

    MAASCH, LVLIBERTY1, and CPT want some company there.

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/10/2007 @ 2:19pm

24. Good to see John Maaschs worldview is falling apart, he has a big neon sign on all his posts that says: "my worldview is falling apart".

    Posted by LIBERALPRIDE 01/10/2007 @ 2:16pm

    Did he give up on the "we need a bigger war without deficit spending and with lower taxes . . . uh, or something like that . . . stoopit libs, it's all your fault" worldview? It was a good laugh while it lasted.

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/10/2007 @ 2:24pm

25. I'll listen to generals. (POTUS 9/15/2006)

    ..and if I don't agree with them, I'll rotate generals until I find ones that I do agree with!

    Posted by leftofcenter at 01/10/2007 @ 2:33pm

26. Proof positive that unless you surrender like the defeatists and the leftists want us to do, we still have the opportunity to utilize the US military as a force for good in Iraq. The new commanders have been lauded by Dems and Republicans since they took their initial assignments in Iraq and now the cream is rising to the top.

    What leftists seem to find the most dismaying is that these guys actually fight to win. Go Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, and National Guard. And keep up the good fight Mr. President. They bellyaching by the defeatists is a sure sign the president is on the right track!

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/10/2007 @ 2:31pm

    So, now, being chagrined about American deaths is "bellyaching".

    You truly are the fringe of the fringe, Liberty.

    While the other 70% of our nation (and that much of the world population) sees this venture as a tragic mistake that's only growing worse by the day - you still keep your blinders on.

    Hey, Maasch -

    You need to build this fellow a whole section by himself so he doesn't communicate his blindness to others.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 2:37pm

27. I'll listen to generals. (POTUS 9/15/2006)

    ..and if I don't agree with them, I'll rotate generals until I find ones that I do agree with!

    Posted by LEFTOFCENTER 01/10/2007 @ 2:33pm

    Not just generals - anyone he can appoint in the administration (even if he has to do it in recess appointments to circumvent opposition).

    Agree with Bush or begone - you have no place in his Amur-Ka.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 2:39pm

28. MASK

    Tell me where is it that Abizad and Casey said that they are 100% DEAD SET against this?, while they have concerns which is obivous, that does not automatically mean they are adamantly oppossed to it.

    Convinently rotated out???? Combatant Commanders serve...again BY LAW 4 yr terms.

    Guess what buddy, its been four years! I love how you guys "know" that improperity is afoot.

    Casey is also rotating out...its been 2 yrs for him.

    Do you think Abizad and CAsey want a withdrawal along the lines of what you want? What do you think there strategy would be if they were to stay??? Immediate pullout? say we lost? its a failure? nope...try again sam.

    I still maintian Abizad and Casey are damn good Commanders.

    Posted by CPT at 01/10/2007 @ 2:44pm

29. Um, CPT -

    Abizaid is retiring early.

    And Casey, who has called the idea of troop escalation unnecessary and possibly counterproductive, will also be being replaced several months ahead of schedule.

    "As Baghdad spun further out of control [in 2006], some of the President's advisers now say, Mr. Bush grew concerned that General Casey, among others, had become more fixated on withdrawal than victory," the Times reported. [NYT, Jan. 2, 2007]

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 2:57pm

30. And more:

    With Iraq Speech, Bush to Pull Away From His Generals

    By Michael Abramowitz, Robin Wright and Thomas E. Ricks Washington Post Staff Writers Wednesday, January 10, 2007; Page A01

    When President Bush goes before the American people tonight to outline his new strategy for Iraq, he will be doing something he has avoided since the invasion of Iraq in March 2003: ordering his top military brass to take action they initially resisted and advised against.

    Bush talks frequently of his disdain for micromanaging the war effort and for second-guessing his commanders. "It's important to trust the judgment of the military when they're making military plans," he told The Washington Post in an interview last month. "I'm a strict adherer to the command structure."

    But over the past two months, as the security situation in Iraq has deteriorated and U.S. public support for the war has dropped, Bush has pushed back against his top military advisers and the commanders in Iraq: He has fashioned a plan to add up to 20,000 troops to the 132,000 U.S. service members already on the ground. As Bush plans it, the military will soon be "surging" in Iraq two months after an election that many Democrats interpreted as a mandate to begin withdrawing troops.

    Pentagon insiders say members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff have long opposed the increase in troops and are only grudgingly going along with the plan because they have been promised that the military escalation will be matched by renewed political and economic efforts in Iraq. Gen. John P. Abizaid, the outgoing head of Central Command, said less than two months ago that adding U.S. troops was not the answer for Iraq...

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ content/article/2007/01/09/ AR2007010901872.html?nav=rss_email/components

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 2:59pm

31. Posted by CPT 01/10/2007 @ 2:44pm

    Intersting how you changed the argument around...."Are Casey and Abizaid for a withdrawal...NO!" Wasn't what I was discussing, was it?

    No, but they WERE opposed to "the Surge"...and were quickly replaced with guys that would support it.

    Petraeus and Odierno will be "listened to" by Bush...because they'll tell him what he wants them to.

    Posted by Mask at 01/10/2007 @ 3:08pm

32. Gen. John P. Abizaid, the outgoing head of Central Command, said less than two months ago that adding U.S. troops was not the answer for Iraq...

    Posted by NEW DAWN 01/10/2007 @ 2:59pm

    NEW DAWN, as CPT will inevitably tell us in a few weeks or so, General Abizaid doesn't know the "real situation on the ground" like General Petraeus and General Odierno and President Bush do!!!!

    Posted by Mask at 01/10/2007 @ 3:10pm

33. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/10/2007 @ 2:31pm | ignore this person

    This is so utterly pathetic. Apparently only "leftists" are against the war. And of course, you can't speak of "leftists" without using the term "defeatist". If LL was alive in France 1812 he'd have called anyone against calling back the few Frenchman who weren't claimed by the Russians, the elements or hunger "defeatists". This is how eminently stubborn this faux-mensch is. He is a poltroon, scoundrel, madcap, snake, churl and completely anaesthetized to truth and reality. LL, you claim to believe in democracy, yet suggest the 12% who agree with Bush are the only true Americans, at least those worthy of a blessing from your unholiness. Bellyaching? Hmmmm. You have no bellyache over more than 3.000 troops dead, or 25.000+ maimed and wounded, some of them returning to your great land in pieces, both mentally and physically?

    I am convinced your grand narratives about travel are complete malarkey, that your claims of working with the underprivileged are fables, and that if you preach anywhere it is limited to here and perhaps in the subways and parks where you rant and rave with a cup of change in one hand and a dog-eared bible in the other gifted to you by the 12-stepper, who, before he croaked, bequeathed his marginal parish of drunks, addicts, penniless, homeless, insane and illiterate to yours truly. You may have read the Good Book and memorized a few dozen choice passages (only those which confirm your own narrow worldview stained with bloodshed, hatred and disaster to those who don't agree), but you're just another hooligan who has wasted any talents he had only to dedicate them to furthering the downfall of your own sacred nation. You are a laughingstock, a harlequin, a lousy Holly Roller, a degenerate Billy Sunday. You've distanced yourself from people like Robert Tilden, James Baker and Pat Robertson, but you are just as idiotic in your primitive scare tactics, not to mention your incessant predictions of ruin to all of your detractors. I suspect you're also a part-time soothsayer, and probably claim to suffer the occasional possession by spirits and maybe even speak in wild tongues during these episodes.

    That you ally yourself with the president as if he were your alter ego is a trick that might work with the other hobos you hurl your jeremiads at, but this audience, though populated by the occasional quack and half-wit, isn't the same flotsam and jetsam who swallow and regurgitate the hogwash you're so adept at expelling here. Get a grip. You are so full of yourself it isn't funny. Month after month you accuse the world of being blind from all the "good" being done in Iraq. I guess you're the only one with eyes. But to play your game for a minute, has anything gone wrong over there, or do you applaud Abu Ghraib, Haditha, Gitmo and they myriad other instances of barbarity that have been perpetrated in the name of your gleaming city on a hill? Go take your act back to the mean streets of whatever city you reside in. And while you're at it, take your Lithium. You've obviously missed another dose.

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/10/2007 @ 3:11pm

34. NEW DAWN, as CPT will inevitably tell us in a few weeks or so, General Abizaid doesn't know the "real situation on the ground" like General Petraeus and General Odierno and President Bush do!!!!

    Posted by MASK 01/10/2007 @ 3:10pm

    That would not surpise me in the least.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 3:13pm

35. You've distanced yourself from people like Robert Tilden, James Baker and Pat Robertson,

    Posted by CHIMICHENGA 01/10/2007 @ 3:11pm

    Just for clarification...I think you mean "Robert TILTON" and "Jim (not James) BAKKER".

    Just for future ref.

    Posted by Mask at 01/10/2007 @ 3:26pm

36. We can have a gunship (I mean a rescue plane) down there ASAP to bring you back for medical treatment. Please wear the shirt we are sending so our troops can identify you. Don't worry about what seems to be a bullseye on the front and back, it is the latest fad.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/10/2007 @ 3:26pm

    That's curious. "Whose Death Would Jesus Joke About? WDWJJA? Will that fit on a bracelet???

    Posted by Mask at 01/10/2007 @ 3:28pm

37. Always good to hear from you Chimi. However I am concerned based upon your latest posting that some kind of overdose (and I'm sure accidental) has debilitated your senses causing you to be delusional. Not to worry. We can have a gunship (I mean a rescue plane) down there ASAP to bring you back for medical treatment. Please wear the shirt we are sending so our troops can identify you. Don't worry about what seems to be a bullseye on the front and back, it is the latest fad.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/10/2007 @ 3:26pm

    Do you really think that this is funny, Liberty?

    Do you really not realize that when you type things like this here, you just help convince everyone that you are a complete fraud when you talk about Jesus and God's love and you being created in their image?

    Do you think Jesus would find that shit funny - send someone a gunship and a shirt with a target on it?

    You are the fringe of the fringe.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 3:34pm

38. LL,

    Of course you'd playfully imagine my unsavory death down here, as you do the death of pleny of other people in this world, the one you walk in the name of JC, you know, that old dude who wished death upon his enemies as well. But if it came down to it, you'd handle my death the same way as you handle that of the enemy Islamists you apparently can't go an hour without fearing with absolute dread - you'd rely on someone else to do your dirty work, as would any other heartless, neutered nut, religious or not. Boy are you stuck in gear...

    MASK,

    My bad on the names of LLs corrupt mentors.

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/10/2007 @ 3:34pm

39. Looks like Mask beat me to the same sentiment.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 3:34pm

40. Geez - so did Chimi!

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 3:35pm

41. Wonder how long it will take Liberty to "get right with God" for wishing for your death, Chimi?

    Remember, he can "rip off" someone's head and "stuff it up their ass" and "be right with God in a week"...

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 3:37pm

42. My bad on the names of LLs corrupt mentors.

    Posted by CHIMICHENGA 01/10/2007 @ 3:34pm

    No problem...it just can be a bit confusing if the spelling isn't correct. After all, "James Baker" is the guy who helped write the Iraq Studies Group report, which LVLIB castigated, while "James or Jim BakKer" is the sexually ambigious "theme park preacher".

    Posted by Mask at 01/10/2007 @ 3:57pm

43. ND,

    Yeah, but I suspect he's always right with the Prince of Darkness. Someone has some serious praying to do tonight. It's so disturbing to see the bible turned into such an ugly weapon and to be mistreated and misinterpreted in so foul a manner.

    When I was younger and went to church here and there, I always seemed to recall people being fine with acting like LL does here, then feeling absolved and justified just for sitting in mass for 60 minutes, a time in which many of them spent more time commenting on what this one or that one was wearing than praying for forgiveness. If LL actually led a parish you'd assume that within a few days of hearing his frustration with the majority of humanity (wishing hell and worse upon most of them), he'd be dimissed. But then seeing as how good churches have become at not only employing deviants, but also at overlooking if not covering their villanies, LL could probably get away with his shouts for installing more butcher shops in the world...

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/10/2007 @ 3:59pm

44. Looks like Mask beat me to the same sentiment.

    Posted by NEW DAWN 01/10/2007 @ 3:34pm

    Again, no problem....odd that a Christian minister, much less a Christian (or so he claims) in general....would JOKE about killing a fellow human being?!?!?!?

    If there was a God or Christ, I'd expect Him to have a sense of humor ...but to joke about a "gunship looking for a guy with a bullseye T-shirt"?!?!?!?

    Is that "Christian"?!?!?!

    Posted by Mask at 01/10/2007 @ 3:59pm

45. .this has been building for a long time..maybe, pre-colonial, even..

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/10/2007 @ 1:23pm | ignore this person

    Louis XIV?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 01/10/2007 @ 4:11pm

46. No, Liberty -

    just your hypocrisies have been exposed without any prompting.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 4:28pm

47. By the way, I see you're back to your asshole habit of using the nebulous term "the left".

    You will never learn.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 4:29pm

48. What leftists seem to find the most dismaying is that these guys actually fight to win. Go Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, and National Guard. And keep up the good fight Mr. President. They bellyaching by the defeatists is a sure sign the president is on the right track!

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/10/2007 @ 2:31pm | ignore this person

    Bellyaching by intelligent people who dont like to see AMERICANS DYING FOR NO GOOD REASON WHATSOEVER is a sure sign the disaster in Iraq is on the right track!

    Youre doing a satire, right?

    5 Americans KILLED in less than 36 hours.

    Posted by LiberalPride at 01/10/2007 @ 4:29pm

49. Oh, and Liberty -

    I don't recall Chimi, all of his vitriol notwithstanding, ever even joking about having you killed.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 4:30pm

50. 5 Americans KILLED in less than 36 hours.

    Posted by LIBERALPRIDE 01/10/2007 @ 4:29pm

    Wait'll we send another 20,000 targets.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 4:30pm

51. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 01/10/2007 @ 3:59pm

    That's why I no longer subscribe to Catholicism (which I was raised with) or any other religious dogma.

    Too many hypocrisies and stories with holes.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 4:32pm

52. Posted by NEW DAWN 01/10/2007 @ 4:30pm | ignore this person

    I've never wished harm to LL, as I've stated in the past, not just because he supplies us with so much material, but also because his desire to sway us over into his camp, while pulling the wool over our eyes, is as entertaining and as likely to happen as Sisyphus rolling his rock to a peak in Hades.

    Though I understand LL was playing around and don't take it seriously, I do find it disconcerting that a "preacher" would joke about something like that. I mean, wish giardia or Moctezuma's revenge upon me, for fetid flatulence and diarrhea are funny, but don't talk about shooting me down.

    For those who may call me a hypocrite, well, you're absolutely right. I'm more guilty than most when it comes to clowning, so save your denunciations. And while we're talking about jokes in poor taste, CPT recalls a post in wish I apparently wished death upon him, which I don't, but since I can't remember the post I'll apologize assuming I most likely intimated such a thing. While I don't wish any harm to any of my antagonists, even CPT, I will say that I'd like to see what kind of posts he'd compose after losing a limb or two, or having his face blown off like many of his comrades. I'd really wonder if he'd still be as proud and blindly obedient to his masters after sacrificing an ear, chin or eye, or maybe his writing hand or ability to walk, for what will ultimately be a lost cause built upon lies.

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/10/2007 @ 4:56pm

53. "wait till they get the bill.."

    :)

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/10/2007 @ 1:20pm

    We still get the propeller hat for free, right?

    Posted by Malcontent at 01/10/2007 @ 5:10pm

54. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/10/2007 @ 3:26pm

    Good thing this administration has streamlined (or eliminated) the paperwork.

    Eric

    Posted by Malcontent at 01/10/2007 @ 5:11pm

55. LL,

    Was JC a rightist, leftist, or just your homeboy?

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/10/2007 @ 5:18pm

56. Though I understand LL was playing around and don't take it seriously, I do find it disconcerting that a "preacher" would joke about something like that.

    Posted by CHIMICHENGA 01/10/2007 @ 4:56pm

    That's what Liberty doesn't get - he thinks we bring up his religion out of some sort of Christian-hate, which couldn't be further from the truth.

    I brought it up because if I overheard a local priest at any church anywhere joking about the deaths of others - I would think he was either a fraud or in the wrong line of work, to say the very least. Supposedly, the prime directive for a good Christian is to serve God in all things - in thought, word, and deed.

    How does joking about someone's death serve Liberty's God? I would think he would be ashamed of himself for even thinking such a thing.

    Wait - no, I wouldn't.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 5:36pm

57. I will say that I'd like to see what kind of posts he'd compose after losing a limb or two, or having his face blown off like many of his comrades. I'd really wonder if he'd still be as proud.....

    Posted by CHIMICHENGA 01/10/2007 @ 4:56pm | ignore this person

    I have seen them, heard them, touched them, and smelled them and lived with them. Thru it all, been there and done that.

    Saw a AQ suicide bomber type last moments as life ebbed from his body and face, after he killed two UK soldiers in Kabul from a suicide bomb....by all rights, the damage to the guy should have killed him instantly, i mean after all I could see his spinal column as most of his liver and intestines were gone...but hey he still had life in him for at least a minute after the blast, it is truly amazing how life fights survive....his eyes glazed over in wonderment at the end.....for the life of me i wondered what he saw at the end.

    But yes i am proud and will always be so...

    Posted by CPT at 01/10/2007 @ 5:42pm

58. You often let your pride and sense of duty get in the way of logic, CPT.

    I guess that's all part of the oath, though.

    You will do as you are commanded, regardless of whether it is right or wrong, and no matter who is doing the defining of same, right?

    You follow orders, period.

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 6:00pm

59. The new troops will be set up in 30 new "minibases" called "joint security stations" in and around Baghdad, with troops living directly in the centers of some of the hottest neighborhoods.

    Liberty - should we be disturbed that the troops in those minibases will all have a big target on them, or is that just "the latest fad" and funny to you?

    Posted by New Dawn at 01/10/2007 @ 6:02pm

60. Eric,

    " "wait till they get the bill.."

    :)

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/10/2007 @ 1:20pm

    We still get the propeller hat for free, right?

    Posted by MALCONTENT 01/10/2007 @ 5:10pm | "

    PLUS a certificate of participation.

    Posted by john maasch at 01/10/2007 @ 8:09pm

61. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 01/10/2007 @ 3:11pm

    Entertaining reading but it's hopeless to attempt to pour so many words into a vessel as small as LVLIBERTY1.

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/10/2007 @ 9:41pm

62. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/10/2007 @ 2:31pm

    I am convinced your grand narratives about travel are complete malarkey, that your claims of working with the underprivileged are fables . . .

    Posted by CHIMICHENGA 01/10/2007 @ 3:11pm

    I find it odd that six months ago LVLIBERTY1 defended himself as having served his country based on his employment with a defense contractor but now he says he was in Special Forces in Vietnam and has a purple heart. Why would he not mention that previously?

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/10/2007 @ 9:50pm

63. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 01/10/2007 @ 3:11pm

    We can have a gunship (I mean a rescue plane) down there ASAP to bring you back for medical treatment. Please wear the shirt we are sending so our troops can identify you. Don't worry about what seems to be a bullseye on the front and back, it is the latest fad.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/10/2007 @ 3:26pm

    I posted what was obvious a sarcastic reminder of how leftist ideologues like Chimi see conservatives like myself. But it required not only a sense of humor but the ability to think so it is no wonder it went over the heads of the "superior leftists" here.

    I mean as if some guy like myself can command a gunship to South America and even have a special bullseye shirt delivered to someone in which I don't even know where they are at. You guys are pathetic some times.

    And you try and lump religioun into it when there was nothing in my post about faith, God's will for this or any mention of God at all. Just your prejudices coming to the surface without any prompting.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/10/2007 @ 4:26pm

    That's lame. Why don't you stand up to what you said preacher man? Glenn C. Lemon was man enough to apologize for some comments he made to you but you're failing the test miserably yourself. You're only man enough to try to weasle out of the truth.

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/10/2007 @ 9:57pm

64. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/10/2007 @ 4:26pm

    LVL no need to worry. Great to see the supercilious Mr. Chenga get a bit of his own medicine.

    In his case and to maintain your religious consistency, would it not be possible to give "I came not to bring peace but a sword" just a special purpose literalist tweak to accomodate this ex-patriot, smart arse Yank?

    Posted by lrjones4 at 01/10/2007 @ 10:02pm

65. Troops more likely than not will, in shore order, refer to gen. petraeus as, "gen. betray us".

    Posted by auditor at 01/11/2007 @ 06:45am