The Notion

'Gruesome.' 'Barbaric.' 'Politicized.' 'Farcical.'

posted by john on 12/31/2006 @ 01:41am

While much of U.S. media coverage of Saddam Hussein's execution has strained to echo the Bush administration's suggestion that "justice" was done, the international reaction to the hurried hanging of the former dictator has recognized what one of the world's top experts on the Middle East refers to as the "gruesome, occasionally farcical" nature of the process that led to the execution.

"It's tawdry," Rosemary Hollis, the director of research at Chatham House, The Royal Institute of International Affairs, in London, said of the execution. "It's not going to achieve anything because of the way the trial was conducted and the way the occupation was conducted. Life in Iraq has become so precarious that many people are saying it was safer under Saddam Hussein - it makes the whole thing look like a poke in the eye as opposed to closure or some kind of contribution to the future of Iraq. The purpose should have been to see justice done in a transparent manner... the trial was gruesome, occasionally farcical, and failed to fulfill its promise of giving satisfaction."

Chris Doyle, the London-based director of the Council for Arab-British Understanding, was equally dismissive, telling the Guardian newspaper that, "For Bush, Blair and their diminishing brotherhood of diehard supporters, Saddam's demise is their sole concrete victory in Iraq in almost four years. This should have been the crowning glory of their efforts, but instead it may pose yet another risk to their demoralised troops. For Iraqis, some will see it as a symbol of the death of the ancien regime. For some Sunnis, Saddam's death represents the final nail in the coffin of their fall from power. But Iraqis may also see this as the humiliation of Iraq as a whole, that their president, however odious, was toppled by outside powers, and is executed effectively at others' instigation."

Doyle's assessment was shared by Iraqi expatriate Kamil Mahdi, an academic who is now associated with the Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies at Britain's Exeter University. "It will be taken as an American decision," Mahdi said of the decision to execute Hussein and the way in which deposed leader was killed. "The worst thing is that it's an issue which, in an ideal situation, should have unified Iraq but the Americans have succeeded in dividing the Iraqis."

Critics of the trial and execution of the former dictator did not defend his actions. Rather, they recognized the fundamental flaws in his trial by an inexperienced and clearly biased Iraqi judiciary. And they condemned the rush to hang Hussein by a country employing the widely-rejected sanction of capital punishment.

"A capital punishment is always tragic news, a reason for sadness, even if it deals with a person who was guilty of grave crimes," explained Father Federico Lombardi, spokesman for the Vatican, who added that, "The killing of the guilty party is not the way to reconstruct justice and reconcile society. On the contrary, there is a risk that it will feed a spirit of vendetta and sow new violence."

British Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett, while officially welcoming moves to hold Hussein to account for killings and other crimes that tool place during his tenure as president of Iraq, issued a statement that said, "The British government does not support the use of the death penalty, in Iraq or anywhere else. We advocate an end to the death penalty worldwide, regardless of the individual or the crime."

Another longtime U.S. ally, Italy's former prime minister Silvio Berlusconi, who in 2003 dispatched his country's troops to support the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq, condemned the hanging of Hussein as "a step backward in Iraq's difficult road toward full democracy. Describing the killing as a "political and historical" mistake, Berlusconi said, "The civilization in the name of which my country decided to send Italian soldiers into Iraq envisioned overcoming the death penalty, even for a bloody dictator like Saddam."

Dutch Deputy Prime Minister Gerrit Zalm criticized the hanging as "barbaric," and similar criticism came from officials of Chile, Spain, Ireland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Austria, Hungary, Italy, Switzerland and the Ukraine.

Speaking for Amnesty International, Malcolm Smart, director of the organization's Middle East and North Africa Programme, echoed concerns expressed by Human Rights Watch and other watchdog groups.

"We oppose the death penalty in all cases as a violation of the right to life and the ultimate cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment, but it is especially abhorrent when this most extreme penalty is imposed after an unfair trial," said Smart. "It is even more worrying that in this case, the execution appeared a foregone conclusion, once the original verdict was pronounced, with the Appeals Court providing little more than a veneer of legitimacy for what was, in fact, a fundamentally flawed process."

While Iran, which fought a long war with Iraq in the 1980s, found itself in ironic agreement with the Bush administration's enthusiasm for the execution, most Muslim countries were critical of the timing of the hanging.

The killing of Hussein during the Eid al-Adha, or Feast of the Sacrifice, an annual period of religious reflection seem by Muslims globally as a time for showing forgiveness, drew rebukes even from U.S. allies. During Eid, Muslim countries rarely execute prisoners and frequently pardon them.

"There is a feeling of surprise and disapproval that the verdict has been applied during the holy months and the first days of Eid al-Adha," Saudia Arabia's official news agency declared after the execution. "Leaders of Islamic countries should show respect for this blessed occasion... not demean it."

"It had been expected that the trial of a former president, who ruled for a considerable length of time, would last longer... demonstrate more precision, and not be politicized," continued the blunt statement from the Saudis.

Libya cancelled Eid al Adha celebrations and ordered that flags on government buildings be flown at half-mast.

A statement from the Egyptian foreign ministry announced that, "Egypt regrets the fact that the Iraqi authorities carried out the execution of former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, and that it took place on the first day of Eid Al Adha."

From Cairo, Foreign Ministry spokesman Alaa Al Hadidi complained that the execution's timing "did not take into consideration the feelings of Muslims and the sanctity of this day which represents amnesty and forgiveness."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

John Nichols' new book, THE GENIUS OF IMPEACHMENT: The Founders' Cure for Royalism has been hailed by authors and historians Gore Vidal, Studs Terkel and Howard Zinn for its meticulous research into the intentions of the founders and embraced by activists for its groundbreaking arguments on behalf of presidential accountability. After reviewing recent books on impeachment, Rolling Stone political writer Tim Dickinson, writes in the latest issue of Mother Jones, "John Nichols' nervy, acerbic, passionately argued history-cum-polemic, The Genius of Impeachment, stands apart. It concerns itself far less with the particulars of the legal case against Bush and Cheney, and instead combines a rich examination of the parliamentary roots and past use of the "heroic medicine" that is impeachment with a call for Democratic leaders to 'reclaim and reuse the most vital tool handed to us by the founders for the defense of our most basic liberties.'"

The Genius of Impeachment can be found at independent bookstores and at www.amazon.com

Comments (137)

  1. John, give it up, let go...you're beating a dead horse! Why cry foul about the way he was executed. The groups you mentioned couldn't even prosecute Slobidan, Augusto or Pol Pot.

    "We oppose the death penalty in all cases as a violation of the right to life and the ultimate cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment, but it is especially abhorrent when this most extreme penalty is imposed after an unfair trial," said Smart. "It is even more worrying that in this case, the execution appeared a foregone conclusion, once the original verdict was pronounced, with the Appeals Court providing little more than a veneer of legitimacy for what was, in fact, a fundamentally flawed process."

    That's funny, I didn't see anyone from the international community at his trial. Matter of fact, nobody came to his defense, even during the sentencing phase. Only his lawyers spoke for him. Why?

    Posted by ACook at 12/31/2006 @ 09:26am

  2. I swear, doesn't it seem like Mr Nichols is bemoaning the death of Saddam Hussein and (in a previous posting) using terms like "bad player".....while when Gerald Ford died he HAD to leap in with how he shouldn't have become President (BLOG | Posted 12/27/2006 @ 09:20am The Accidental President--John Nichols) hit on Ford. That plus the other hits on Ford by Jon Wiener....

    it seems like "The Nation" feels that the President who "deserved" flags at half mast was....Saddam Hussein!

    ("Libya cancelled Eid al Adha celebrations and ordered that flags on government buildings be flown at half-mast.") (above)

    The Iraq War was a mistake, but to start talking about the "gruesomeness" and "farcical" nature of the execution of a brutal, genocidal dictator (not a "bad player", Mr Nichols)....is one of the reasons that despite the recent elections, liberals are considered untrustworthy and weak on national defense.

    Posted by Mask at 12/31/2006 @ 09:33am

  3. Mask, he'll never get over it. They were completely caught off-guard with Iraq's appeals process. (Talk about a rocket-docket. If only our judicial process was so swift....hehehe)

    On the other hand, he didn't seem to feel too bad that Slobidan and Augusto died without having being tried for their war crimes.

    Posted by ACook at 12/31/2006 @ 09:52am

  4. (Talk about a rocket-docket. If only our judicial process was so swift....hehehe)

    ghoul [en.wikipedia.org]

    Posted by canaar at 12/31/2006 @ 11:20am

  5. Off-topic, but I think everybody is pretty sick of this topic anyway. Looks like the guy who's "going to get Bush"...better watch it HIMSELF!--

    The Hill

    December 30, 2006

    Conyers accepts responsibility for possible ethics violations By Jonathan E. Kaplan and Jackie Kucinich

    Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.) has "accepted responsibility" for possibly violating House rules by requiring his official staff to perform campaign-related work, according to a statement quietly released by the House ethics committee late Friday evening.

    The top Republican and Democratic members on the ethics panel, Reps. Doc Hastings (R-Wash.) and Howard Berman (D-Calif.), said in a statement that Conyers acknowledged a "lack of clarity" in communicating what was expected of his official staff and that he accepted responsibility for his actions.

    "[Conyers] agreed to take a number of additional, significant steps to ensure that his office complies with all rules and standards regarding campaign and personal work by congressional staff," they stated. "We have concluded that this matter should be resolved through the issuance of this public statement."

    The finding by the ethics panel could spark debate, and perhaps eclipse, the first week of the incoming-Democratic majority's plans to change the House ethics rules, as well as raise questions about Conyers' standing to chair the Judiciary Committee.

    On Dec. 14, Conyers sent a letter to his supporters from his campaign website announcing that he had been elected as chairman-designate of the House Judiciary Committee. Berman is the second-ranking Democrat on the panel.

    A spokesman for Incoming House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said Conyers will remain chairman of the Judiciary Committee.

    The House ethics committee conditions that Conyers has agreed to must be complied with throughout the 110th Congress.

    Conyers had alarmed Democrats, poised to recapture the House after 12 years in the minority, by indicating that he would begin impeachment proceedings against President Bush.

    In May, a spokesman for Pelosi, said that she told her Democratic colleagues in a closed meeting, "that impeachment is off the table; she is not interested in pursuing it."

    Posted by Mask at 12/31/2006 @ 11:44am

  6. What could be better calculated to worsen the position of the USA than to subject the former leader of a country we illegally invaded without cause to a kangaroo court rather than a fair trial and then to hang him on television on the first day of a Muslim holy period?

    You have to wonder if that is exactly the intention of the Bush admin for their own un-American purposes or if they really are that stupid.

    Posted by fromredbird at 12/31/2006 @ 11:45am

  7. Posted by CANAAR 12/31/2006 @ 11:20am

    The Idiots of America are here in droves to register their glee that "we" hung an Ay-rab. That's the complete extent of their understanding of what's going on. It's pitiful that a country in the modern world has a government filled with creatures like this.

    Posted by fromredbird at 12/31/2006 @ 11:49am

  8. ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.'

    But when you do more than nothing good? By accusing the one pointing the wrong out, you protect the wrong. By not pointing out a wrong as a wrong, you side with the wrong.

    It's not the 'libs' that are screwing the USA internationally-- it's the repub incompetent hsuB dis-decider admin, that corporate world bugger you right wing nut jobs snuggle up to for amoral scraps. Sad cases you are that can't see a sickness per your own fractured moral distortions. You best look for justice as an excuse to hide and be protected via the humanity you do not have nor cannot give.

    http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/12/30/ weekinreview/31marsh.ready.html

    Posted by hsuBfools at 12/31/2006 @ 12:00pm

  9. Will we see the same speed and efficient progress in gw's & cheneys war crime trials or will they plead for The Golden Presidential pardon:

    http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=qw116756208052 7B216

    Me thinks cheney is setting the stage.

    Posted by dycel8r at 12/31/2006 @ 12:37pm

  10. I'm still celebrating the death of Saddam and the anger it's brought out of his defenders/supporters ( liberal lunatics )! It's such a joyous time! Hahahahahahahahahaha!

    Posted by barry25 at 12/31/2006 @ 1:52pm

  11. Cheney's war crimes? Yah, then i guess Roosevelt was guilty of those damn war crimes too! You pathetic twerp!

    Posted by barry25 at 12/31/2006 @ 1:54pm

  12. I think it would be a mistake for those against capital punishment to use the trial and execution of Saddam Hussein as any sort of example against it -- better to concentrate on people wrongfully convicted rather than the circus trial of a mass murderer.

    Second, I think it's a mistake as well to quote the Vatican on capital punishment. Their opposition to capital punishment and their opposition to abortion comes from the same theological argument that the keys to life and death must remain in the hands of God. Loudly agreeing with one part and disagreeing with another part of what is (to them) the same issue seems rather hypocritical.

    Posted by Snarfangel at 12/31/2006 @ 1:58pm

  13. Posted by BARRY25 12/31/2006 @ 1:52pm

    Barry I agree that for a liberal or a neo con (Reagon/Bush,hsuB, Cheney) to support Saddam's regime would be rather loony. Yet, for you to not equate a mockery of justice that led to his hanging as un-American a process that is reminiscent of a lynching, calls question to your sanity. I do not question that Saddam could nor would be found guilty in a proper trial nor that he'd be executed, but what happened is to disgrace our troops that are fighting there. If you and those like minded wish another evil empire in Iraq, bring our troops home, that is not why our sons and daughters fight there or anywhere-- nor should they ever.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 12/31/2006 @ 2:40pm

  14. Posted by SNARFANGEL 12/31/2006 @ 1:58pm

    Couldn't agree more. DANGEROUSLY thin ice to start treading both in some oddball comparison of Hussein with other capital punishment cases (Saddam and Mumia Abu-Jamal?!?!?!)...

    and to start quoting the Vatican. What happens Mr Nichols when you post on abortion rights and somebody throws the Vatican back in your face?

    Posted by Mask at 12/31/2006 @ 3:25pm

  15. Posted by SNARFANGEL 12/31/2006 @ 1:58pm

    You point out one reason for being against the death penalty, but fail to take into account the rest of the arguments against it. Saddam was a big shitstain, but those of us who are against the death penalty don't believe anyone is capable of determining who is or is not worthy of life. Those who dare serve as executioners or nod approvingly at their actions apparently have powers far greater than mine to understand why taking someone's life as a penalty of him/her taking those of others makes this world a better place. If killing is wrong, then killing is wrong. The "yes, but..." on the most serious action a human can take is the weakest possible response.

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 12/31/2006 @ 4:51pm

  16. Posted by MASK 12/31/2006 @ 3:25pm

    So, it's not really a "comparison" then, is it? People being executed are compared against whom? Or are you trying to say that someone somewhere wants to parse the difference between bad people being executed and badder people being executed?

    I hope your twisted argumentation amuses you. And that you have a safe and happy new year, emerging with a clearer view of the world and the various viewpoints of it.

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 12/31/2006 @ 5:11pm

  17. First, the US illegally invades, without cause, a country and then subjects it's former leader to a kangaroo court rather than a fair trial.

    That means there could be no logical or moral basis of criticism of Cuba if it invaded Haiti and subjected it's US puppets and their death squads to a Stalin-style show trial and execution.

    The dimwit Republicans here are incapable of developing even a hazy clue about those issues. All they can do is parrot, "You love Saddam, you love Saddam".

    Jesus God, what morons. America has surely begun to recognize their puerile uselessness in any activity that requires an adult consciousness. These peabrains would call America's Founding Fathers "extreme leftists".

    Posted by fromredbird at 12/31/2006 @ 5:44pm

  18. The rightness or not of the death penalty is a diversion from the important issue- the rightness or not of lynch mob-style retribution by a kangaroo court rather than a fair trial. The fact that this site's Republicans can't grasp something as fundamentally American as that displays once again the unfitness for public office of any politician who seeks out such a constituency.

    Posted by fromredbird at 12/31/2006 @ 5:48pm

  19. Any Republicans have a clue why 90% of Iraqis think life was better under Saddam Hussein? Or why the government leaders who caused the following shouldn't receive a fair trial and then pay the penalty if found guilty? Why not if Saddam Hussein wasn't as bad and he was hung by a kangaroo court? Come on all you Elmer Fudd geniuses. Let's see those brain cells work.

    -- the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi men, women and children who have fled their homes and often their country to escape the violence of a nation increasingly at war with itself.

    The refugees are witnesses to the cruelty that stains our age, and they cannot be overlooked. America bears heavy responsibility for their plight. We have a clear obligation to stop ignoring it and help chart a sensible course to ease the refugee crisis. Time is not on our side.

    We must act quickly and effectively.

    Today, within Iraq, 1.6 million people have already fled or been expelled from their homes. An additional 1.8 million, fleeing sectarian violence, kidnappings, extortion, death threats and carnage, have sought refuge in neighboring countries. At least 700,000 are in Jordan, 600,000 in Syria,

    100,000 in Egypt, 54,000 in Iran and 20,000 in Lebanon. Typically they are not living in refugee camps but have relocated in urban areas, where they must draw on their own meager resources to pay for food and shelter, and must depend on the good graces of the host governments.

    http://tinyurl.com/yaek6h

    Posted by fromredbird at 12/31/2006 @ 6:06pm

  20. I know its difficult for some here to grasp the concept...but it was the IRAQIS who wanted him dead.

    I guess they figured a the long trial was enough.

    Ultimately justice was done..

    Posted by CPT at 12/31/2006 @ 6:50pm

  21. Posted by TJBEHRENS1 12/31/2006 @ 5:11pm'

    Yeah, that IS what I'm saying. Apparently they want to throw in a bit of conspiracy theory ("Saddam was executed to cover up American support during the Iraq war or looking the other way during the Kurdish genoicide") or just playing down his crimes ("sure Saddam was a 'bad player'")....and the link to other capital punishment cases isn't that far off.

    Politicly though this is a loser, both to try and come off as "defending" Saddam....and to invoke the Vatican for a death penalty case, and not risk the hypocrisy charge when an abortion rights issue pops up!

    Posted by Mask at 12/31/2006 @ 8:17pm

  22. Posted by TJBEHRENS1 12/31/2006 @ 5:11pm'

    Yeah, that IS what I'm saying. Apparently they want to throw in a bit of conspiracy theory ("Saddam was executed to cover up American support during the Iraq war or looking the other way during the Kurdish genoicide") or just playing down his crimes ("sure Saddam was a 'bad player'")....and the link to other capital punishment cases isn't that far off.

    Politicly though this is a loser, both to try and come off as "defending" Saddam....and to invoke the Vatican for a death penalty case, and not risk the hypocrisy charge when an abortion rights issue pops up!

    Posted by Mask at 12/31/2006 @ 8:17pm

  23. sorry for the double

    Posted by Mask at 12/31/2006 @ 8:18pm

  24. Mask, that hypocrisy goes both ways. The Repubs want to buddy up to the vatican on select social issues, but ignore the rebukes on peace and flawed foreign policy. Like saying, "Yes John Paul II criticized Bush on Iraq every chance he got...but hey, we all agree that Terry Schiavo should live."

    Posted by kimbo1 at 12/31/2006 @ 10:25pm

  25. Yeah, and regardless of Vatican argumentative consistency in assigning responsibility for human life's creation and extinction to THE diety, Snarfangel, the most reasonable stance on the admittedly difficult abortion issue, after the Feminist propositions "if you don't want one don't have one" and "safe, available and rare" is the too little addressed but fundamental aspect of viability of the blastocyst/lifeform/human, IMHO.

    To me, one who likes to KISS (keep it simple selectperson), a woman's gestation period provides an ideal tripartite ethical and moral guide: in the first three months it's the sixteen year old and above woman's choice exclusively to "carry on" or get a safe "D & C"; in the second trimester the developing embryo's still unviable, but the impregnator and the woman's parents have a say, I'd say, although not the final word (sticky here); and the last trimester is when society can reasonably insist the healthy baby be delivered up for adoption, if need be.

    Posted by lewwelge at 12/31/2006 @ 11:13pm

  26. and the left has the gall to coddle Saddam...

    September-October 1995: Unocal Obtains Turkmenistan Pipeline Deal Oil company Unocal signs an $8 billion deal with Turkmenistan to construct two pipelines (one for oil, one for gas), as part of a larger plan for two pipelines intended to transport oil and gas from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan and into Pakistan. Before proceeding further, however, Unocal needs to execute agreements with Pakistan and Afghanistan; Pakistan and Ahmed Shah Massoud's government in Afghanistan, however, have already signed a pipeline deal with an Argentinean company. Henry Kissinger, hired as speaker for a special dinner in New York to announce the Turkmenistan pipeline deal, says the Unocal plan represents a "triumph of hope over experience." Unocal will later open an office in Kabul, weeks after the Taliban capture of the capital in late 1996 and will interact with the Taliban, seeking support for its pipeline until at least December 1997.

    October 27, 1997: Halliburton Announces Turkmenistan Project; Unocal and Delta Oil Form Consortium Halliburton, a company headed by future Vice President Dick Cheney, announces a new agreement to provide technical services and drilling for Turkmenistan. The press release mentions, "Halliburton has been providing a variety of services in Turkmenistan for the past five years." On the same day, a consortium to build a pipeline through Afghanistan is formed. It is called CentGas, and the two main partners are Unocal and Delta Oil of Saudi Arabia.

    August 27, 2002: US Establishes Military Presence in Uzbekistan The Central Asian nation of Uzbekistan has recently signed a treaty committing the US to respond to "any external threat" to the country. Uzbekistan's foreign minister explains: "The logic of the situation suggests that the United States has come here with a serious purpose, and for a long time." According to a Washington Post report, the other Central Asian nations--Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan--have similar agreements with the US. The US claims it is supporting democracy in these nations, but experts say authoritarianism has been on the rise since 9/11. A new US military base in Uzbekistan currently holds about 1,000 US soldiers, but is being greatly enlarged. The article makes the general point that the US is replacing Russia as the dominant power in Central Asia. [Washington Post, 8/27/2002]

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/31/2006 @ 11:50pm

  27. Posted by FREIHEIT 12/31/2006 @ 6:11pm

    A very small hole. Bread, hot Thai chili paste, 1/2 liter of water/day. No TP.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/31/2006 @ 11:53pm

  28. Glad they did NOT have the internet during WWII!

    The secular regressive apologists and appeasers would have burned up the wires during the Nurenburg trials and executions!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted by RIO BRAVO 01/01/2007 @ 02:11am

    I have found that people who use multiple exclamation marks (sorry, exclamation points) usually do so for lack of solid arguments. Quod erat demonstrandum.

    Ah, Nürnberg, those were the days. Back then, the Americans cared deeply about the fairness of a trial and about the legal framework of the proceedings. That's why the prosecuters in Nürnberg had to invent the legal novelty 'crimes against humanity' -- because it would otherwise have been impossible to either get any convictions or to give those nazi butchers a fair trial.

    Now, what happened in Iraq was simply a matter of fixing the facts around the policy -- fairness of the trial be damned. Of course, this time around there were actually some proper facts to fix around the policy, but still the policy was set and Saddam's fate was sealed before he ever had his day in court. It was as if his trial was just an annoying bit of going-through-the-motions propaganda to all involved.

    Which is understandable, actually. Saddam's many crimes were always a matter of public record, so why bother trying to prove them -- especially when the death sentence has already been decided upon. Tha sad thing is, of course, that show trials are typically the traits of dictators like, yes, Saddam.

    As we speak, the former Liberian dictator Charles Taylor is in a prison cell in Scheveningen, awaiting his trial at the International War Crimes Tribunal in Den Haag. That's where Saddam should have been tried, because it would have been one of the few places where he would have been guaranteed a fair trial. But the Tribunal would not have sought the death penalty, of course, which is why this possibility was never even suggested. Trying Saddam in Den Haag would have made it impossible to fix the facts around the policy.

    Posted by Amsterdam69 at 01/01/2007 @ 06:31am

  29. Possible McCain-Lieberman Alliance

    Introducing McCain to a packed ball room of pro-Israel business executives, defense contractors, and Washington insiders, was Sen. Joseph Lieberman, fresh from being re-elected as an independent after losing the Democratic Party primary in Connecticut.

    Lieberman's glowing tribute to his Republican colleague did not go unnoticed. "McCain-Lieberman? There's something to that," JINSA board member Morris J. Amitay told the crowd.

    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/12/6/111221.shtml?s=lh

    Double Standards on Foreign Owners: Amdocs vs. DP World by Lila Rajiva www.dissidentvoice.org March 1, 2006

    In December 2001, Fox TV broadcast a four-part investigation on Israeli espionage by Carl Cameron, which the Israeli embassy in Washington, JINSA (Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs), and AIPAC (American Israeli Political Action Committee) immediately denied and attacked. (1)

    http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Mar06/Rajiva01.htm

    JINSA rewards American Militarism:

    http://www.jinsa.org/articles/articles.html/function/view/categoryid/136 6/documentid/3340/history/3,2359,2166,1366,3340

    http://nowarforisrael.com/

    http://www.mediamonitors.net/johnhenshaw1.html

    JINSA presents an annual Distinguished Service Award, named in honor of the late-Senator Henry M. "Scoop" Jackson to U.S. government leaders.

    Last year the recipient was General Peter Pace. They have taken down the JINSA site - but the article is cached here:

    http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:x6ArOtbgi40J:www.jinsa.org/articles/ view.html%3Fdocumentid%3D3340+pace+jinsa+honor&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

    This years recipient is none other the AIPAC Butt Boy and USS Liberty Coverup Specialist, JOHN McCain.

    http://www.dissidentvoice.org/July2004/Hughes0712.htm

    Tuesday December 5th, JINSA is proud to honor Senator John McCain with the 24th annual "Scoop Jackson Distinguished Service Award...sponsored by Rolls Royce.

    DO THE MATH FOLKS!

    http://www.jinsa.org/home/home.html

    McCain / Lieberman is your future.

    DO THE MATH

    Posted by plunger at 01/01/2007 @ 07:59am

  30. Let's make "Swift Luck Greens" famous!

    What do you think it will take for Lou Dobbs and Keith Olbermann to get these images featured on their nightly shows and demand an explanation of Michael Chertoff? I want to see national TV news crews there at this location with cameras in hand. We paid for them - Cheney's KBR built them - let's see them on TV! Aren't they proud?

    http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?tid=297

    Note that in the DHS "Swift Luck Greens" photos, the mine facility is known as the "East Annex"

    This implies that the main facility is further west of this location.

    I believe the "main" facility is the one referred to as the "Maximum Security" facility.

    Rag Shoshone coal mine closed Thursday. August 30, 2000.

    In 2000 – this was the production rate for the mine:

    Tons of Coal Mined in 2000: 1,209,795 Number of Employees in 2000: 67

    CYPRUS SHOSHONE COAL CORPORATION PO BOX 530 HANNA WY 82327

    Latitude: 41.92 Longitude: -106.521944

    http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:r6uVGyYd6jEJ:oaspub.epa.gov/enviro/ multisys2.get_list%3FFACILITY_UIN%3D110011605575+%22RAG+shoshone%22+long itude+latitude&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

    Map:

    http://www.gorissen.info/Pierre/maps/googleMapLocationv4.php?lat=41.92&l on=-106.521944&setLatLon=Set

    http://www.gorissen.info/Pierre/maps/googleMapLocationv4.php?lat=41.92&l on=-106.521944&setLatLon=Set

    Map:

    http://oaspub.epa.gov/enviro/lrt_viewer.map_page?sys_id=110011605575

    Coal Field Summary

    A small field (20 by 40 miles) with hundreds of coal seams throughout 12,000 feet of rock, most very thin, but 68 are over 5 feet thick. Peat collected in intermountain swamps. All are strip mines. The one underground mine closed recently. Coal Field Geography

    The Hanna Basin is an intermountain basin surrounded by The Rawlins uplift to the west, the Granite Mts to the north, the Laramie Range to the east and the Medicine Bow Range to the south. As Wyoming basins go, it is small and roughly circular-some 50 miles across. Like most Wyoming basins it is a desert with less that 10 inches of rainfall per year.

    This shows the rail line loops at the Shoshone mine, plus a creek to the west called Stink Creek.

    http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=-11859000.6865528 &Y=5118000.35541027&width=700&height=400&gride=&gridn=&srec=0&coordsys=m ercator&db=&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=& inmap=&table=&ovtype=&keepicon=&zm=0&out.x=8&out.y=8&scale=25000

    Also shown here depicting possible hay/wheat fields:

    http://www.gorissen.info/Pierre/maps/googleMapLocationv4.php?lat=41.92&l on=-106.521944&setLatLon=Set

    Roads and rail lines:

    http://www.gorissen.info/Pierre/maps/googleMapLocationv4.php?lat=41.92&l on=-106.521944&setLatLon=Set

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Inmate_Labor_Program

    Wikipedia:

    Civilian Inmate Labor Program -

    The Civilian Inmate Labor Program is a program of the United States Army provided by Army Regulation 210-35[1]. The regulation, first drafted in 1997 and went under a "rapid act revision" in January 2005, provides policy for the creation of labor programs and prison camps on Army installations. The labor would be provided by persons under the supervision of the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

    Prison camps

    The regulation also sets forth policy for the creation of prison camps on Army installations. These would be used to keep inmates of the labor programs resident on the installations.

    In January 2006, Kellogg, Brown and Root reported that they had received a contract from the Department of Homeland Security to expand ICE DRO facilities "in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs."[3] A February news article comments that the "new programs" mentioned could include the Civilian Inmate Labour Program.[4] ICE has "joint federal facilities" with the Federal Bureau of Prisons.[5]

    External links

    1. ^ AR 210-35 Civilian Inmate Labor Program (PDF) (2004). Retrieved on 2006-03-09.

    http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/47/17936

    Bush's Mysterious 'New Programs' By Nat Parry Consortium News

    Tuesday 21 February 2006

    Not that George W. Bush needs much encouragement, but Sen. Lindsey Graham suggested to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales a new target for the administration's domestic operations - Fifth Columnists, supposedly disloyal Americans who sympathize and collaborate with the enemy.

    "The administration has not only the right, but the duty, in my opinion, to pursue Fifth Column movements," Graham, R-S.C., told Gonzales during Senate Judiciary Committee hearings on Feb. 6.

    "I stand by this President's ability, inherent to being Commander in Chief, to find out about Fifth Column movements, and I don't think you need a warrant to do that," Graham added, volunteering to work with the administration to draft guidelines for how best to neutralize this alleged threat.

    "Senator," a smiling Gonzales responded, "the President already said we'd be happy to listen to your ideas."

    In less paranoid times, Graham's comments might be viewed by many Americans as a Republican trying to have it both ways - ingratiating himself to an administration of his own party while seeking some credit from Washington centrists for suggesting Congress should have at least a tiny say in how Bush runs the War on Terror.

    But recent developments suggest that the Bush administration may already be contemplating what to do with Americans who are deemed insufficiently loyal or who disseminate information that may be considered helpful to the enemy.

    Top US officials have cited the need to challenge news that undercuts Bush's actions as a key front in defeating the terrorists, who are aided by "news informers" in the words of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

    Detention Centers

    Plus, there was that curious development in January when the Army Corps of Engineers awarded Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown & Root a $385 million contract to construct detention centers somewhere in the United States, to deal with "an emergency influx of immigrants into the US, or to support the rapid development of new programs," KBR said. [Market Watch, Jan. 26, 2006]

    A working coal mine and a shoe factory - to be worked by prisoners (dissidents)?

    I believe the location of the "East" facility to be in the Hanna Coal Basin. In one photo – the facility listed is called "Swift Luck Greens EAST" It contains a coal trolley repair facility and access to a rail line – indicating mining will be conducted. The following chart lists the Hanna Coal Basin "RAG Shoshone 1" facility as having stopped production of 1 million-plus tons of coal per year as of 2001:

    http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:gNcoT3lrnlsJ:www.wma-minelife.com/co al/coalfrm/coaldat.htm+coal+shoshone+1&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4

    Did the government close the mine only to TAKE it for their use?

    http://www.fmshrc.gov/decisions/commission/west199934202042004.html

    Read this guy's take:

    http://tinyurl.com/y48vxo

    If the linked photos and maps are accurate, odds are these dude ranch owners are within 20 miles of it...and they'll know the deal if so.

    People who herd cattle for a living know everything about all the land around them. Trust the old timers.

    Silke Simon Bucking S Ranch Hanna, WY 82327

    google it.

    The location shown below (north facility) resides in a north/south running stretch of river valley with irrigated hay pastures on either side.

    View the area adjacent to the Pathfinder Reservior and the Seminoe Reservoir IN CENTRAL WYOMING SOUTH OF CASPER on Google Earth / Google Maps relative to the larger Wyoming map found here:

    http://209.157.64.201/focus/f-bloggers/1607403/posts

    FIRST THEY CAME FOR THE MEXICANS, BUT I WAS NOT MEXICAN, SO I DID NOT SPEAK OUT.

    NEXT THEY CAME FOR THE DRAFT DODGERS, BUT I WAS TOO OLD TO BE DRAFTED, SO I DID NOT SPEAK OUT.

    THEN THEY CAME FOR ME.

    Posted by plunger at 01/01/2007 @ 08:01am

  31. Now would you like a quote from the Jesuit oath? http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=jesuit

    Um, RESE, the so-called Jesuit Oath, the text of which is so kindly provided by Rev. Ian Paisley, is a FORGERY that is almost 100 years old. Check out

    http://www.geocities.com/okc_catholic/articles/jesuit_oath.html

    http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=800002701

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14103a.htm

    Posted by clanndaeid at 01/01/2007 @ 09:19am

  32. Glad they did NOT have the internet during WWII!

    The secular regressive apologists and appeasers would have burned up the wires during the Nurenburg trials and executions!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted by RIO BRAVO 01/01/2007 @ 02:11am | ignore this person

    Glad they did NOT have the internet during WWII! "

    think about the MSm AND WW2...

    Had many people who think like those on these pages it could be questioned whether or not we could have even fought in WW2 muchless won...the Bushfools with his daily body counts and I am sure of there are those who thought we never give enough to the Soviets in the form of aid, the camps in Montana would have generated the drive to apologise for "making" the Japanese attack Pearl...

    I can see the whole affair here unfold....and we learn German to better understand...as the demand to bring home our occupying troops, who of course are torturing the Germans, the military dominating the economy..

    Posted by john maasch at 01/01/2007 @ 10:05am

  33. Glad they did NOT have the internet during WWII!

    is as relevant and stupid as:

    I'm glad they didn't have the atomic bomb during the 100 years war.

    In the nature of, "If wishes were horses, paupers would ride," it may be speculated that had there been a world wide communication system that was egalitarian, provided instantaneous visual and auditory evidence, freely available to all (pardon the bit of socialist overtone there - now if we could just get rid of that pesky nuisance "public education"), and highly interactive, that conflict may not have occurred, or, it may have been nipped in the bud, or the genocide may not have occurred, or it may have had absolutely no impact whatsoever (see Darfur).

    Certainly, the restriction on filming the caskets of our children returning from Iraq hasn't led to victory nor has it kept 2/3 of the public from concluding that the Grand Adventure has been as dismal and tragic failure nor has it facilitated the transformation of chicken shit into chicken salad.

    Gosh, if we could just find a "good" war that we could all rally around we could restore our dignity, regain the Norman Rockwell America, lay the foundation for a booming economy and destroy global competition (at least until the Rosenbergs sell us down the river).

    Posted by canaar at 01/01/2007 @ 10:59am

  34. Still trying to equate WWII with Iraq? So sad, when all the real arguments have failed, bring out the failed comparison of a justified defense of Europe to the unjustified, unnecessary, and inadvisable invasion of Iraq.

    If Japan had not attacked us= If Iraq had not attacked us?

    You guys spit on the memories of WWII soldiers every-time you spit on the principles of Nuremberg , which is pretty much daily.

    Well Rio, whats it like to live in a country surrounded by terrorists? How did you feel when you pulled the lever for the Greatest Appeaser, Ronald Reagan?

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/01/2007 @ 11:12am

  35. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/01/2007 @ 10:05am

    Uh, JOHN....four years into World War-2, what was the situation in Europe?

    Did we have Berlin, but have Bavarian Germans and Prussian Germans fighting a civil war with each other? Were German men, women, and children dying from rocket attacks outside of the capital? Was the drive to Templehof Airport more dangerous than Bastogne or Normandy had been? Had we lost 90% of our casualties AFTER Doenitz had surrendered?!??!?

    Posted by Mask at 01/01/2007 @ 11:27am

  36. Pulled over from another thread...

    Much like Iraq and iran in the 80's, we are not winning, or losing.

    Which tin-pot dictator we call a friend now will be the next Saddam?

    any bets?

    Niyazov is out, obviously. Noriega is in the can. Mushareff will get taken out by his own. Someone from Northern Africa? Or Niyazovs successor, someone Cheney has business history with?

    Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedow

    Quite a name. Probably won't be popular with the press. But I think the neo's can get behind this guy. I think he may assume some of the "leadership" shown by his predecessor:

    (I'm lazy today so this comes from Wiki again)

    "His policies changed greatly in the post-Soviet era: he was friendly to foreign corporations; he had rather tense relations with Moscow; and he styled himself a promoter of traditional Turkmen culture.

    "According to the 2005 Reporters Without Borders World Press Freedom Index, Turkmenistan had the second-worst press freedom conditions in the world behind North Korea, and as of a 2006 report, is listed as one of the 13 "Internet enemies".

    People who have defected from Turkmenistan are subject to prison terms for betraying the country. Any act of homosexuality in Turkmenistan is punishable by up to five years in prison. Liberal political movements which call for democracy or freedom of speech are illegal, and membership in one of them could lead to imprisonment.

    The Turkmen educational system is far behind the educational system in Russia. Entering a university often requires a bribe, discouraging talented people from seeking higher education. (required schooling was just dropped to 9 years)

    (this is the only bad part, from the neo's mindset, that I could find about Turkmenstan, or friend and ally in the GWOT)- Some human rights are guaranteed in the Constitution of Turkmenistan. However, rights issues in Turkmenistan, an authoritarian state, include freedom of religion issues. According to Forum 18, despite international pressure, the authorities keep a very close eye on all religious groups and the legal framework is so constrictive that many prefer to exist underground rather than to have to pass through all the official processes, which act as barriers.

    (I am sure they can overlook this minor problem, in favor of all the other good guvt policies they have in common with such friendly guvts. this place sounds like just what Rio, DaveB, Sliver and JM have been asking for. A Utopia free of liberals, media and public education)

    (Or we can be America and have this: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.-- Your choice RioCowadroAmericaHater)

    I'll help you out with the plane ticket, America, Love it, or leave it, Right?

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/01/2007 @ 11:32am

  37. RESE and PLUNGER do serve one good purpose. Every time I succumb to the intermittent but still bad habit of logging out to see what the deadender Republicans are saying, RESE and PLUNGER make it painful. Kind of like Nicorette for the fascination of sometimes taking the measure of exactly how morally depraved the right has become in America.

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/01/2007 @ 11:34am

  38. What I found was a lynch mob of social neanderthals that look for all the world like the last scene from The Wicker Man.

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/01/2007 @ 11:36am

  39. Hey AMSTERDAM69, you should read this guy named Chomsky. You'd like him!!!! :-)

    Posted by FREIHEIT 01/01/2007 @ 10:59am

    As if I haven't already... ;-)

    Posted by Amsterdam69 at 01/01/2007 @ 11:44am

  40. The complete breakdown of the American right into a lynch mob of Moqtadaists [tinyurl.com] who despise every precept that America is founded upon is disturbing but also reassuring because the social and political sympathies they are now openly revealing will fill most Americans with revulsion.

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/01/2007 @ 11:45am

  41. Given the opportunity, I think Rio would love to hang some Iraqis from his local bridge. Barry would join him with libation.

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/01/2007 @ 11:45am

  42. Is anyone really surprised that the deadender Republicans here evolved from American flag-waving faux-patriots to supporters of Moqtada al-Sadr [tinyurl.com] in just a few short years? We always knew that their Americanism was, at bottom, a fraud but now all the world can see it in all it's revolting glory.

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/01/2007 @ 11:54am

  43. Come on deadender Republicans, lets hear it- "Moktada! Moktada! Moktada!" [tinyurl.com]

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/01/2007 @ 11:57am

  44. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/01/2007 @ 10:05am |

    John, do you think the internment camps were a good thing, justified under American law and fruitful in the design to keep Japanese Americans from conspiring with the Japanese?

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/01/2007 @ 11:58am

  45. FROM, Guliani could learn a few things from ol' Moqtada about running a police force. And I bet the neo's secretly love his style.

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/01/2007 @ 12:01pm

  46. Had many people who think like those on these pages it could be questioned whether or not we could have even fought in WW2 muchless won...

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/01/2007 @ 10:05am

    MAASCH, I never realized the degree to which you identified with FDR, the very liberal American President who led us to victory in WWII.

    JOHN, it's a New Year. Make some resolutions. Start with, "I will think before I speak." Then move on to, "I will read a grade school grammar book."

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/01/2007 @ 12:03pm

  47. FROM, Guliani could learn a few things from ol' Moqtada about running a police force. And I bet the neo's secretly love his style.

    Posted by CRABWALK 01/01/2007 @ 12:01am

    Moqtada has a posse in America, there's no doubt about that.

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/01/2007 @ 12:05pm

  48. ahh, life will now be safe for the returning 1,000,000 Iraqis who will no doubt feel free to come home. Or will they continue to flee at around 50,000/month? Maybe that was the parade Cheney told us about, with his flowers?

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/01/2007 @ 12:06pm

  49. Posted by FROMREDBIRD 01/01/2007 @ 12:05am

    and he has scripture to back him up, so there can be no argument. Cuz, if it's written, so shall it be.

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/01/2007 @ 12:07pm

  50. In fact, maybe it's time to stop calling them deadender Republicans and start calling them the Republican Moqtada Posse [tinyurl.com] .

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/01/2007 @ 12:09pm

  51. Posted by FROMREDBIRD 01/01/2007 @ 12:05am

    and he has scripture to back him up, so there can be no argument. Cuz, if it's written, so shall it be.

    Posted by CRABWALK 01/01/2007 @ 12:07am

    Wait! Do I hear a bat flitting about or is that LVLIBERTY1 coming in for a landing?

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/01/2007 @ 12:11pm

  52. You know, there come's a time when the only response to a lack of thought is to call it stupidity. Happy New Year, you stupid, stupid conservatives. This year, take a moment to consider what part of your world is really progressing toward a positive end. When you find one part, come back and let us know just what you continue to hang your hat on.

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/01/2007 @ 12:11pm

  53. Time to move on. I wish a sincere Happy New Year to everyone!

    The process continues.

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/01/2007 @ 12:13pm

  54. Moqtada/Alan Keyes in 08?

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/01/2007 @ 12:14pm

  55. happy New Year all.

    Peace on Earth, Goodwill Towards Men.

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/01/2007 @ 12:17pm

  56. It may have to be Moqtada/Alan Keyes in '08 for them. McCain's arteries will be totally solidified by that time. When is that guy going to get a walker?

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/01/2007 @ 12:19pm

  57. happy New Year all.

    Peace on Earth, Goodwill Towards Men.

    Posted by CRABWALK 01/01/2007 @ 12:17am

    Thanks.

    Peace. We have the power to choose it.

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/01/2007 @ 12:21pm

  58. so much for thou shalt not kill. Still, I think it's rather refreshing that those who scream loudest that they speak for god are the first in line when it comes time to break gods laws.

    just like their lord lucipher

    Posted by Will C. at 01/01/2007 @ 6:34pm

  59. Posted by MADLIB 01/01/2007 @ 3:09pm

    Waste of time, ML....RESE is certifible. I jerk him around on occasion, but 95% of the Left, Right, and Middle here....mostly I put him and his 5000 word C&Ps from www.jesuitjewishmindcontrol.org on Ignore.

    Posted by Mask at 01/01/2007 @ 8:33pm

  60. Here goes Rese with his tired ol' " Bush blew up the WTC " shit again! Hahahahahahahahaha...MORON! I'm keepin' an eye on you lunatics, cause once we handle the " religion of peace " you'll be the next enemy we face ( "we" being the American people )! Twerps!

    Posted by barry25 at 01/01/2007 @ 8:56pm

  61. Hey! It's my widdle fwend bush boy!

    HI bush boy

    Posted by Will C. at 01/01/2007 @ 9:01pm

  62. No, I'm not. Just jokin' around!

    Posted by barry25 at 01/01/2007 @ 9:55pm

  63. Rese, your posts are nearly undecipherable, and far too long.

    I'm sure this has been discussed before, but could you consider posting links only, or if not, just shutting the hell up?

    Posted by MADLIB 01/01/2007 @ 3:09pm

    It's useless to ask. You'll have to use the ignore feature yourself. I have no idea if I agree with any of what he or PLUNGER say. I immediately ignored both of them.

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/01/2007 @ 10:44pm

  64. Saddam's gone, that's truly a good thing. All for now.

    Posted by antiPartisa at 01/02/2007 @ 01:35am

  65. Posted by BARRY25 01/01/2007 @ 8:56pm

    Going after the Christians now are you? That should keep you busy for a while. Do they give paid time off at the Burger Hut?

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2007 @ 08:35am

  66. Posted by WILL C. 01/01/2007 @ 6:34pm

    Those ten suggestions are for display and/or for others to follow. Adherents need not adhere to the rules.

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2007 @ 08:39am

  67. Posted by CANAAR 01/01/2007 @ 10:59am

    amem to that...nail on the head...

    not ww2...got it, neocons, controlls?

    that aside, it was typically barbaric and indicative of what is to come, i'm afraid...a religious war of shi'ite vs sunni...

    well, if we can squirm our way out and stop smokin' the black gold crack, perhaps they will happily slaughter each other for a while and isreal, us, and the west wil get a break...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 01/02/2007 @ 09:01am

  68. How many Iraqis get to come to the USA?

    NYT: Until recently the Bush administration had planned to resettle just 500 Iraqis this year, a mere fraction of the tens of thousands of Iraqis who are now believed to be fleeing their country each month.

    "We're not even meeting our basic obligation to the Iraqis who've been imperiled because they worked for the U.S. government," said Kirk W. Johnson, who worked for the United States Agency for International Development in Falluja in 2005. "We could not have functioned without their hard work, and it's shameful that we've nothing to offer them in their bleakest hour."

    An estimated 1.8 million Iraqis are living outside Iraq. The pace of the exodus has quickened significantly in the past nine months.

    -MISION ACCOMPLISHED- get them damn towel heads off of our oil.

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2007 @ 09:14am

  69. Amar, who did not want his full name used, went to at least 10 embassies during a trip to Jordan last fall, but found only blank faces. He counts his sacrifice for America in bones and skin. He is missing a finger, an eye and part of his skull, after a large bomb exploded next to his Humvee last year. He has received two threats to his life. Two bodyguards accompany him everywhere. He stays in three different houses to confuse potential attackers.

    "They said they have nothing for Iraqis," said Amar, sitting in a small house in western Baghdad. "We feel just like stupid trash."

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2007 @ 09:15am

  70. Saddam Hussein is apparently guilty of killing 148 people - its a major milestone - another turning point - which means things will get _____?.

    On the day which commemorates Abraham killing his own son, let us review the God-revealed message of what really happened on that day.

    Boy: So dad, lets cut up the sheep for God.

    Abraham: Actually son...

    Boy: Hey dad, why are you tying me up. Oh no.

    God: Yeah, thats it Abraham, tie him up. Now get your knife.

    Abraham: God, I dont know how I feel about this.

    God: You want me to burn you alive forever?

    Abraham: Ok.

    Voice in Abrahams head: Now bury the body. Think of a story. You still have to worship me tonight when you get home.

    Posted by LiberalPride at 01/02/2007 @ 10:41am

  71. ACOOK, MASK,

    To be up-front, I am opposed to the death penalty in principle. But if I did support it, then truly Saddam would have been a candidate that the death penatly was meant for. True, no one from the international community that I know of came to Saddam's defense, not that they were required to, but you do note an interesting point ACOOK. MASK, as for the soft on defense canard, truth be known both Republicans and Democrats are soft on defense, the only difference is rightwingers usually in the Republican party with notable Democratic standouts like to talk about how many people they want to kill and how many nations they want to bomb around the world and because America is a nation which disdains any true intellectual capacity and debate that makse people ERRONEOUSLY THINK that some are strong and some are soft on defense when history clearly shows that both major parties are soft and stupid on national defense..............

    Mask, I find it hard to believe that since you are opposed to the Iraq war that you would continue to repeat this slanted one-sided falsehood parakeet-like saying "Democrats are soft on defense, Democrats are soft on defense." If you were not so partisan to a fault, you would realize that both Republicans and Democrats are soft and stupid on national defense and would state as much.

    Posted by POSEIDON at 01/02/2007 @ 10:48am

  72. Posted by BARRY25 12/31/2006 @ 1:52pm | ignore this person

    What a human disgrace. I wonder if you also clap and cheerlead the 3,000 dead American serivce members who have lost their lives in Iraq? I would never have traded one American life simply to put Saddam's neck in a noose. For Saddam life imprisonment in a cell one thousand feet below the ground never to be seen or heard from again by the world at large would have been sufficient.

    Posted by POSEIDON at 01/02/2007 @ 10:54am

  73. Posted by LIBERALPRIDE 01/02/2007 @ 10:41am |

    LP, I'm an agnostic, but DO know a little something about the Bible. You DO know that Abraham DIDN'T sacrifice Isaac, right?

    Posted by Mask at 01/02/2007 @ 10:59am

  74. Katrina vanden Heuvel

    Time is not on your side, our side, or anyone else's side. Time is of the essence and the world has no time to lose. Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi will buy Bush's war by not cutting off funding. And when they do that, they will FALL in November 2008.

    KATRINA, TIME FOR YOU TO TURN UP THE HEAT ON THE DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS AND IF THEY REFUSE TO HEED THE CALL FOR WITHDRAWAL FROM IRAQ, THEN PULL THE PLUG ON THEIR MAJORITY IN NOVEMBER 2008.

    Posted by POSEIDON at 01/02/2007 @ 11:02am

  75. Posted by POSEIDON 01/02/2007 @ 10:48am

    POSEI, I'm dealing with the political realities of the situation, not taking a partisan slant on it.

    Objections and "soft talk" about Saddam and his execution (like Mr Nichols' use of "bad player"...."bad player"!?!??!...would he have called Pol Pot or Pinochet a "bad player"?!?!?) plays into the hands of the STEREOTYPE (which may or may not be argued is justified) of liberals as "soft on defense".

    Principles get in the way of politics on this one. By appearing (to give the benefit of the doubt) to oppose the execution of Saddam and down-playing his brutality, people like Mr Nichols provide ammo to those on the Right who say "See! See! The Left bemoans the dealing out of justice for brutal dictators! How can you trust your children's safety to people like that?!?!?"

    Not saying it myself, okay? Saying that's what it will be USED as.

    Given the utter stupidity of the war in Iraq, the "least bad" option in an alternative universe, would have been to let him stay in power, weakened or try to take him out (with a very good sniper's bullet)...or MAYBE some smart plan which didn't involve Paul Bremer or outside contractors.

    Posted by Mask at 01/02/2007 @ 11:05am

  76. god sez, Abe, kill me a son. Abe sez, man you must be putting me on, god sez no, Abe sez what....where do you want this killing done? out on Highway 61

    Posted by johannesrolf at 01/02/2007 @ 11:33am

  77. So are the Tory Boys wearing t-shirts bearing the dead and bloated head of Saddam yet? I adore the lame attempts at outrage and disgust over so despicable a human being, but I notice there is no shame over the fact that you raised and cultivated him and looked the other way (or didn't even know) when he was committing his greatest atrocities. But all you did was kill a fallen dictator after he was already hobbled and caged. His days of being a menace were over long ago.

    Too bad you don't actually take out leaders who are currently oppressing their people and making their lives miserable like say Castro in Cuba (though his worse days are also behind him), or in the process of wiping the blood of innocent women and children from their hands, like say the barbarians in Sudan. Hell, there's a force of about 25.000 Marxist guerrillas here in Colombia terrorizing people when not cultivating cocaine and heroin for you and your children, yet again you don't look, don't care or don't know. But I bet you know when American Idol is on...

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/02/2007 @ 11:35am

  78. Chimi,

    Why can't the Columbians take them out? If we do it we are in an "illegal war" or some other horseshit...

    Posted by john maasch at 01/02/2007 @ 11:46am

  79. Too bad you don't actually take out leaders who are currently oppressing their people and making their lives miserable like say Castro in Cuba (though his worse days are also behind him), or in the process of wiping the blood of innocent women and children from their hands, like say the barbarians in Sudan. Hell, there's a force of about 25.000 Marxist guerrillas here in Colombia terrorizing people when not cultivating cocaine and heroin for you and your children, yet again you don't look, don't care or don't know. But I bet you know when American Idol is on...

    Posted by CHIMICHENGA 01/02/2007 @ 11:35am | ignore this person

    Chimi that is an awful post. we need to get away from the idea of "taking out" anyone. in addition the US is heavily involved in Colombia's civil war already. I wait for a true and sensitive analysis of that war from you.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 01/02/2007 @ 12:02pm

  80. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/02/2007 @ 11:46am

    Another fatal flaw in the CHIMI "America is at fault for everything" Theory and those "25,000 Marxist guerrillas"....

    It means that the government of his beloved Colombia is....

    weak and toothless.

    Yet "Colombia is so much better than the USA", right? Or is it all just the cheap cervesas and cheaper senoritas???

    Posted by Mask at 01/02/2007 @ 12:03pm

  81. Question is are you just feigning ignorance, or does someone really need to explain the significance of the act to you?

    Posted by RIO BRAVO 01/02/2007 @ 12:00am

    Lest you think I was supporting it (with my post to LP), I know the answer....

    "God is a cowardly psychotic" (atleast in the Old Test).

    He PERSONALLY tells some poor schmuck to kill his son to "prove his loyalty", but when the time comes to say "Oh, I was just testing you", he sends one of his flunkies (i.e. "angels") to call the deal off.

    Posted by Mask at 01/02/2007 @ 12:06pm

  82. "They said they have nothing for Iraqis," said Amar, sitting in a small house in western Baghdad. "We feel just like stupid trash."

    Posted by CRABWALK 01/02/2007 @ 09:15am

    He should taken a clue from Saddam Hussein's history of close collaboration with America's Republican Party.

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/02/2007 @ 12:35pm

  83. osted by RIO BRAVO 01/02/2007 @ 12:31am | ignore this person

    will you NEVER stop with the god drivel?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 01/02/2007 @ 12:35pm

  84. Mask, good to see you turning more and more spiritual and against Bushs disaster in Iraq. But the Bible is only Gods lies - not the actual transcript of what happened.

    If you believe Abrahams side of the story then you are very paranoid, very superstitious, certainly you wouldnt be good jury duty material for a ritual slaying case.

    Posted by LiberalPride at 01/02/2007 @ 12:43pm

  85. prophetic symbolism, always a good way to get The Truth across. A good way to rule too, hard to know when one persons interpretation is wrong, now ain't it?

    So it is written, so it shall be.

    Moqtada reigns. The Koran is the inspired word of God, how could it be otherwise?Oh, wait, thats the Torah. No, its the Bible, King james version. No, wait.... . Now i am confused.

    who has the Word right again? Is it Catholic doctrine or Protestant? Pope or Bartholomew ?

    Well, anyway, when ya'll get it worked out amongst yourselves, THEN come to the rest of us and explain it in straightforward English, no prophetic symbolism please, I wouldn't want there to be any confusion that lead to bloodshed over the Prince of Peace's words.

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2007 @ 12:45pm

  86. JR,

    While I understand your earlier comments, I believe there are too many people in power here and elsewhere who only understand violence. To assume that wars can be ended with out dealing blows given not only the technology but also the depravity of mankind today is wishful thinking. But "taking out" doesn't mean I support killing or hanging the greatest criminals and villains in the land. I would have no problem with Saddam spending the rest of his life in a cage or any of the leaders of FARC who are caught and tried, but sometimes you have to bring swift justice in gross ways when people are planting injustice without respite...

    MASK,

    You're an idiot.

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/02/2007 @ 12:48pm

  87. Posted by MADLIB 01/01/2007 @ 9:39p

    Your opinion counts as much as any, more than some. I, for one, would like to read any comments you have to make. The more, the Maryier Magdelene.

    (hows that for un-PC?)

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2007 @ 12:53pm

  88. where is liberty? the muslim world just finished celebrating Abraham. tell us again how they aren't worshipping the same god, the same book. by all rights it should be the judeo christain muslim religion.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 01/02/2007 @ 12:56pm

  89. Chimi, I still would like to see a more in depth analysis of the situation in Colombia from you. it looks to me that we are close to an Iraq situation there.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 01/02/2007 @ 12:58pm

  90. where is liberty?-JR

    the concept, not the ironic personage, has been hiding in an undisclosed location since 2000.

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2007 @ 1:21pm

  91. Posted by RIO BRAVO 01/02/2007 @ 12:31am

    RIO, what if God told you to kill your own son....then you ALMOST did it...then sent "an angel" (God stopped speaking after the "kill your own son" part) to say "No, wait...just testing ya!"

    Sorry...silly question..obviously Rio, Jr. would be up on a pile of wood, before God finished his sentence!

    Posted by Mask at 01/02/2007 @ 1:31pm

  92. You're an idiot.

    Posted by CHIMICHENGA 01/02/2007 @ 12:48am

    Yep, pretty idiotic question to ask..."If Colombia is so great, soooooo much better than the USA, why does it have 25,000 Marxist guerrillas roaming freely around its country making coke....and uh...we don't?!?!?!?"

    Posted by Mask at 01/02/2007 @ 1:33pm

  93. Why can't the Columbians take them out? If we do it we are in an "illegal war" or some other horseshit...

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/02/2007 @ 11:46am

    I assume you refer to citizens of the District of Columbia, or is this the name of the official cult that worships the establishment of the New World?

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/02/2007 @ 1:36pm

  94. JR,

    Well, the war here is pretty gruesome and horrific, but I live in the city where I mostly read about it or watch stories I seem to have seen a million times about kidnappings, massacres of peasants by the paracos (paramilitaries), skirmishes between the FARC or ELN and some remote military post or small band of police, ect. People here are very tired of the war, yet it is easy to forget about it in a city like Medellín where petty crime and poverty are more visible problems. This isn't to say that there isn't the occasional kidnapping, stabbing, shooting or drug deal gone bad, but the majority of the rebels reside in the rural areas and jungle. While I've been very close to exploding cars, been in and out of FARC-controlled territories and heard some horrible stories narrated by victims of la guerrilla, I also see a proud country go about its normal activities every day of the week.

    Uribe has greatly improved the security of much of the country, which has caused crime to decline a bit and people to move around and see more of their beautiful lands, poverty and unemployment aren't much better, which helps fuel crime and corruption and gives the guerrillas a reason to fight the government and its allies and agents: fixing the problems the government has tried to but cannot. Though you'll find very few people who support the rebels, there are plenty who do, whether out of fear, for profit, livelihood or out of some meaningless ideology, which may be expressed still to this day, but is seldom swallowed. But while the FARC has been pushed out of many of the areas, including small cities like Popayán, and driven east of the Andes into the savannah and Amazon, they have agents all over the country who carry out orders, spy, do reconnaissance, spread propaganda, ect. Any major offensive by the government will be met by urban warfare. This is well understood and is the price that any effort to end the armed conflict would probably entail, though if the US could educate its people about the dangers of drug use and actually make an effort to keep narcotics out of their country, the insurgency would lose most of its financing and probably end up bargaining if not giving up after a few desperate attempts at showing their might.

    As I said, there are regular attacks in areas I've been in and others that occur in areas very close if not inside cities like Bogotá, Cali, Villavicencio, ect. Many people here would welcome a US intervention in the form of military strikes in the jungle, but they would have to be prepared for probably the worst violence since "la violencia" in the 1950s, which is really the beginning of the current conflict and what eventually gave origin to the FARC in the mid-1960s, though anyone familiar with the history of Colombia will know that they had no less than eight civil wars in the 19th century and that García Márquez was describing the very parties of Colombia when he wrote about the world of the Buendías and their involvement with the Conservatives and Liberals. Ever since Bolívar's grand plan broke down shortly after its inception this country has been fighting itself. I've never met more passionate people in my life than in Colombia, where the most beautiful women and the most bellicose men are born.

    I'd be interested in hearing the similarities you see between this nation and Iraq.

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/02/2007 @ 2:16pm

  95. "I assume you refer to citizens of the District of Columbia"

    Sure, why not...the mayor there is a druggy and the murder rate is probably as bad or wosre than Columbia.....

    Posted by john maasch at 01/02/2007 @ 2:17pm

  96. Posted by MASK 01/02/2007 @ 11:05am | ignore this person

    My apologies. I missed your point. I agree with you on how it would be played by the right, but in terms of what the public at large should take from all this, my primary point that both major parties are stupid and soft on defense remains...............

    Posted by POSEIDON at 01/02/2007 @ 2:24pm

  97. Posted by MASK 01/02/2007 @ 1:33pm | ignore this person

    Now here is a question from someone who is either so ignorant of one of the great plagues of the US or is just insistent upon showing the dunce cap atop his square head. Are you seriously asking why the US doesn't cultivate coca? Have you no knowledge of geography/climate/agriculture? Why doesn't Seattle grow coffee for Starbucks, Little Shot? How can anyone be so aloof? There is honestly only a small percentage of the population that uses cocaine here. Aguardiente and beer are the drugs of choice, though there is a population of pot smokers. Hell, Colombia produces most of your heroin and I've never even seen the stuff or met someone who sold and/or used it, (though I came across it a few times in college up there) and I've passed through la olla where there are certainly people selling Snow White.

    And as far as guerillas, well, last I checked a lot of countries had guerrillas, insurgents, rebels, warlords, dissidents, ect. And if I remember correctly, your nation was founded by guerrillas who learned a good deal from warring with the natives before they took down the Lobster Backs. Stop using drugs and the guerrillas here will have no money for weaponry.

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/02/2007 @ 2:28pm

  98. If you believe Abrahams side of the story then you are very paranoid, very superstitious, certainly you wouldnt be good jury duty material for a ritual slaying case.

    Posted by LIBERALPRIDE 01/02/2007 @ 12:43am

    George Bush: "God told me to do it."

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/02/2007 @ 2:41pm

  99. "This isn't to say that there isn't the occasional kidnapping, stabbing, shooting or drug deal gone bad, but the majority of the rebels reside in the rural areas and jungle. While I've been very close to exploding cars, been in and out of FARC-controlled territories and heard some horrible stories narrated by victims of la guerrilla, I also see a proud country go about its normal activities every day of the week.

    ....As I said, there are regular attacks in areas I've been in and others that occur in areas very close if not inside cities like Bogotá, Cali, Villavicencio, ect. Many people here would welcome a US intervention in the form of military strikes in the jungle...."

    Posted by CHIMICHENGA 01/02/2007 @ 2:16pm

    God, sign me up for an airline ticket and application for immigration....anybody else want to join me?

    I mean, why the HELL would anybody want to stay in this "imperialistic, militaristic, materialistic, corrupt shithole" USA....

    when the peaceful and bucolic Colombia with its "occasional kidnapping, stabbing, shooting or drug deal gone bad"..."FARC-controlled territories" ...and "regular attacks in areas I've been in and others that occur in areas very close if not inside cities like Bogotá, Cali, Villavicencio, ect".

    and the cool thing is....NONE of it is the fault of the local national government, but evil machinations of American drug users and of course the evil USA in general!

    Come on guys and gals...maybe CHIMI will put us up in his apartamento!

    Posted by Mask at 01/02/2007 @ 2:47pm

  100. Sure, why not...the mayor there is a druggy and the murder rate is probably as bad or wosre than Columbia.....

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/02/2007 @ 2:17pm

    It's Colombia not Columbia. And Anthony Williams is a druggy? The bowtie had really fooled me. Oh, but are you thinking Marion Barry is still mayor? It's only been 7 years...

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/02/2007 @ 2:51pm

  101. Any major offensive by the government will be met by urban warfare. This is well understood and is the price that any effort to end the armed conflict would probably entail, though if the US could educate its people about the dangers of drug use and actually make an effort to keep narcotics out of their country, the insurgency would lose most of its financing and probably end up bargaining if not giving up after a few desperate attempts at showing their might.

    Posted by CHIMICHENGA 01/02/2007 @ 2:16pm

    No offense is intended but this is a non-policy. "Educating" the developed world to not use cocaine is ridiculous. It simply is not going to significantly reduce it's use. It should be legalized and taxed. Well-financed abstention and recovery programs will help those who will make bad decisions regardless of whether or not it's legal or illegal. It is illegal now and readily available.

    The FARC gang will find it's revenues have vanished and have to either focus on some course of action that is more in the interests of all Columbians or disappear. FARC has, after all these years, not weakened in the least the grip on power of the right wing in Columbia while it has been falling elsewhere.

    Deeper American military involvement in Columbia will only create more bloodshed and misery.

    I think, however, that it is murderously hypocritical in the extreme for America to spray poison on Columbian children because it isn't politically palatable to either crack down on drug use here or legalize it.

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/02/2007 @ 3:02pm

  102. Sure, why not...the mayor there is a druggy and the murder rate is probably as bad or wosre than Columbia.....

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/02/2007 @ 2:17pm

    It's Colombia not Columbia. And Anthony Williams is a druggy? The bowtie had really fooled me. Oh, but are you thinking Marion Barry is still mayor? It's only been 7 years...

    Posted by TJBEHRENS1 01/02/2007 @ 2:51pm

    I misspelled it too. MAASCH's consciousness is not restricted by mundane things like time, place, or reality.

    Posted by fromredbird at 01/02/2007 @ 3:05pm

  103. Posted by FROMREDBIRD 01/02/2007 @ 3:05pm

    On days when I find myself less blown away by the topics here I find myself becoming a typo dick. Man, I need a hobby or at least a paying job as an copy reader.

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/02/2007 @ 3:07pm

  104. Posted by MASK 01/02/2007 @ 2:47pm | ignore this person

    Again, sounds like you're not familiar with many of the problems in your country. Should I harp on school shootings (which NEVER happen here)? Should I go on about pedophile politicians? How about obesity or reliance upon pharmaceuticals? Should I repeat the stats for cities like Camden, Baltimore, Detroit, DC, Los Angeles, Miami or El Paso? I've been to most of these places, just as I've been to all those I referred to here. Can you say the same? And the social indicators in these places? How many times does CNN bombard you with Amber Alerts for some kid abducted by a lunatic or just the regular pederast? How about drug use in the US, say like crystal meth, which also doesn't exist here? To say that your demand for drugs doesn't cause serious problems is a statement not even worthy of the most sarcastic rejoinder. But hey, you probably also believed the Sandinistas were going to invade the US in the 80s despite not even having an air force. You're just another fabulist who thinks his land is the most wholesome ever and exactly like it is described in anthem or twangy country song.

    I've never once denied the fact that I live in a country at war. You somehow assume happiness and well-being are impossible because of this, or that war implies a situation in which just crossing the street is miraculous. Sounds like you haven't seen much of the world or that you think Colombia must be like Iraq. While I've been registered by FARC rebels on numerous bus rides and seen their terrorism up close, it is because I don't cower in my apartment or spend all of my time in the safety of the city (and Medellín has plenty of parts which are as safe as anywhere up there). I love to travel, and I do so by land here, though rarely at night - though I've done plenty of that too. Funny how you make this place out to be so horrible (like most gringos, though they don't know any better), but are one of those posters who claim Iraq is some pearl in the making. How often do you even see news about the war here? Just admit you have no firsthand experience down here and go about your normal daydreaming.

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/02/2007 @ 3:15pm

  105. Posted by FROMREDBIRD 01/02/2007 @ 3:02pm | ignore this person

    You make some good points, especially about the realities of spraying pesticides (right now there's a huge operation in Putumayo along the Ecuadorian border that is really pissing off our southern neighbors) and the reality of at least curtailing drug use up there. Sadly, the damage done to the people and terrains is devastating and can be lethal. I'll be the first to admit that cocaine is a great drug that is pure evil. You've had to have tried it a few times to understand this… (Now how long until MASK calls me a junkie desptie the fact that I rarely even consume sugar or coffee?) Knowing how stressful and taxing daily life up there can be for many people, combined with the availability and low prices, you're probably right about the difficulty in attempting to reduce, much less eliminate, the demand. As for the power of the conservatives here, well, you're also right. Colombia is probably the most conservative Latin nation.

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/02/2007 @ 3:26pm

  106. Okay, now this should be fun....

    "I've never once denied the fact that I live in a country at war. You somehow assume happiness and well-being are impossible because of this, or that war implies a situation in which just crossing the street is miraculous."---Posted by CHIMICHENGA 01/02/2007 @ 3:15pm

    and then he spends the next few lines talking about how Colombia isn't as bad as Iraq....okay, fine.

    Now, what would CHIMI say if CPT, RIO, or LVLIB started in with a few "Why aren't they reporting the GOOD NEWS out of Iraq, like....?"

    Fair warning, CPT, RIO et al....your response can now be "You somehow assume happiness and well-being are impossible because of this, or that war implies a situation in which just crossing the street is miraculous"....CHIMI just gave it to you!

    Posted by Mask at 01/02/2007 @ 3:28pm

  107. Posted by MASK 01/02/2007 @ 3:28pm | ignore this person

    Just give me the figures on attacks not only against US and its few remaining allies, but also those committed by Iraqi against Iraqi. Car bombs go off daily in Iraq. They go off here and there in Colombia, as does the occasional donkey or horse bomb. (Yes, not everyone has access to a car with which to build a bomb - sometimes four legged creatures have to suffice.) I have CNN en Español and in English, so I see plenty of footage of carbombs here and in Iraq. Colombia would be a monumental improvement from the current situation in latter..

    I never said 25 million people in Iraq were living in misery, but they are in fact pretty well familiar with it. I'd also know from a friend in the US with a bro in the military that words like chaos, anarchy and hell are used to describe daily life in Iraq these days. But you should have understood that I was speaking for myself, not necessarily the average Colombian, though plenty of them are surely happier than I am. If the hanging of Saddam is the Good News you refer to, well, that's pretty lame. Perhaps there is a McDonalds with a Ronald Playhouse for the kids in Baghdad that I don't know about? Pray tell.

    MASK, you continue to avoid answering the question I've planted before: can you speak of Colombia with direct knowledge and experience or not? I can. Neither of us has been to Iraq, though something tells me that the attention given the situation in Iraq versus that in Colombia tells us plenty as to which country is suffering more.

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/02/2007 @ 4:00pm

  108. As usual, most of the leftist blather is about the wicked US for letting the Iraqi's execute a criminal who deserved far worse.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/02/2007 @ 3:38pm

    Hello, I'm LVLIBERTY1. And I'm not a god, but I play one when I visit www.thenation.com.

    On what basis do you or anyone dare say when someone deserves death or something "far worse" (now there's an imagination)? I just don't find that order given in the stone tablets you people (read as epithet, please) use as a code of conduct.

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/02/2007 @ 4:00pm

  109. Most thinking people who actually care about life have agreed for thousands of years that those who care not about the lives of others and do not hesitate to take the lives of others, have forfeited their own right to life for the good of society.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/02/2007 @ 4:11pm

    Ah, traditions of barbarism as justification for contemporary barbarism. Anyone who can determine that the just punishment for an action is the same as the original action itself is anything but a "thinking" person...at least not a person above the age of six. Though it could make for some interesting resolutions to rape and child abuse cases.

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/02/2007 @ 4:15pm

  110. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/02/2007 @ 4:11pm | ignore this person

    Well, I guess that means you'd be willing to service God and country, not to mention the salubrious society you preach of, by killing those soldiers who raped and killed in Mahmoudiya, especially seeing as how the one girl was only 14.

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/02/2007 @ 4:16pm

  111. The only commonality LL cares about is the one he dreams of where everyone thinks and acts like he does. It's pretty wild when a self-proclaimed soldier of Christ shares some of the same ideals as crazed warlords in Sierra Leon.

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/02/2007 @ 4:20pm

  112. And, again, people who "care about life" somehow determining that death is in the best interest of "civilization". Those believing God is the only judge do their own judging about who has "forfeited the right to life". With so many contradictory thoughts swirling in your head, one wonders that how you are able to pluck any single thought out for expression.

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/02/2007 @ 4:23pm

  113. Saddam Hussein was apparently guilty of killing 148 Iraqis. Lest that seem like less than even a single unit of measure for Iraqis killed, remember that Saddam Hussein himself was just an Iraqi.

    Posted by LiberalPride at 01/02/2007 @ 4:26pm

  114. "Car bombs go off daily in Iraq. They go off here and there in Colombia, as does the occasional donkey or horse bomb."

    So just a matter of degrees then, huh?

    Note, I stand by my prediction, listen for these words to issue from the mouth of your little senorita fiancee some day...atleast by the time you start talking "kids" and she starts wondering about the UP-side to "occasional car bombs"...."CHIMI, maybe it's safer if we go back to the USA...safer for the infanta?"

    And there will be Mr and Mrs CHIMI landing at the airport in the "evil, corrupt, materialistic" ol' USA...leaving the Paradise in the Valle de Aburrá behind!

    And I'll be waiting (if you like) to welcome you home!

    Posted by Mask at 01/02/2007 @ 4:26pm

  115. liberty, you and I don't just live in other worlds, we live in different universes. show me again where Christ supports the death penalty.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 01/02/2007 @ 4:28pm

  116. LVLIB.....personal theological question for ya....

    If Saddam has spent his life in prison, maybe in the States (for safe keeping), and come in contact with prison missionaries who (despite his cultural background) had "brought him to Christ" and he had "been saved"....

    would that be better or worse than him being executed?

    (Note to others, I'm an agnostic and glad to see the bastard strung up)

    Posted by Mask at 01/02/2007 @ 4:30pm

  117. I can without any hesitation on a purely emotional basis conclude that those who do not execute these types of criminals do so because they lack adult reasoning capacity. Since all thinking adults I know of, both those with and those without advanced degrees share my belief me that the death penalty is appropriate.

    let me translate: those who disagree with me are children and lack reason

    only if you agree with me are you a thinking being.

    and THAT IS WHY I cannot communicate with you any longer.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 01/02/2007 @ 4:39pm

  118. Posted by MASK 01/02/2007 @ 4:26pm | ignore this person

    I give up. You don't know Colombians or understand how much they love their country. I don't live in some shantytown full of displaced campesinos, so sure, I believe most of them are pretty fed up and would hop on a plane to just about anywhere, but so would plenty of "refugees" from New Orleans.

    While you accuse me of making generalizations about the people of Iraq, you make wilder assumptions about everyone outside the US just dying to get their huddled masses there however possible so they can eat Big Macs, shop at WalMart and work for minimum wage, if not less. While I'm an American in Colombia with complaints about the US, you seem to forget there are plenty of Colombians in the US who keep touch with their paisanos and visit when they can, and they too have complaints about what you call "life" and how hard it is to enjoy when you spend more and more time punching the clock. It's not for everyone. But you sound as if you don't know the liberation of being happy with less in life, and by less I mean like less than 4000 calories a day, less cars on the road, less hours to work, less money to get by. Maybe you're quite needy. Simple things...

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/02/2007 @ 4:41pm

  119. With so many contradictory thoughts swirling in your head, one wonders that how you are able to pluck any single thought out for expression.

    Posted by TJBEHRENS1 01/02/2007 @ 4:23pm

    Truly amazing isn't it? I can only surmise the Mothership (ie the RNC, the Rightwingnutter National Congress) beams it down to them via corporate media outlets that feature such deep thinkers as the Rush, Bubba, Savage and the leader of the "Please make us more like Turkmenistan" movement; Ann Coulter.

    issue of the week is no longer Christmas under imminent attack, now it will be "1/2 of America are terrorists and need to be contained in Gulags in Montana." And that's just the ones they cannot line up and shoot, or media they cannot blow up. Right Ann?

    "My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building"

    "When contemplating college liberals, you really regret once again that John Walker is not getting the death penalty. We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors."

    Ahh, the stench of Anti-american Nationalism, can you smell it? Smells like....neo-conservatism

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2007 @ 4:48pm

  120. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/02/2007 @ 4:35pm | ignore this person

    By far the scariest comment I've seen in a while here, perhaps ever, but I tend to think LL is more of a personality than a real person. Surely no true preacher would say things like the above comment, at least not in this century and certainly not one in his right mind. Perhaps he wears the cross inverted...

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/02/2007 @ 4:50pm

  121. Wait Luvvy, I thought "thou shalt not kill" was a rule? I guess it is couched in more of that "prophetic symbolism".

    Pick and choose the commandments you like, just like the amendments? I did not realize they were menus.

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2007 @ 4:52pm

  122. As usual, most of the leftist blather is about the wicked US for letting the Iraqi's execute a criminal who deserved far worse.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/02/2007 @ 3:38pm

    Amazing really. that so many can read so many posts, and come away with something that is not there. Like Rio thinking we are defending Saddam. Small minds have little room for large concepts, like fair trials. But alas, Stalin had no need for such a new concept. Nor did Saddam.

    who are you closer too? Jefferson or Saddam?

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2007 @ 4:57pm

  123. "Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours."-Annie "the Ghast" Coulter. Rios dreamboat.

    Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2007 @ 4:58pm

  124. This just in:

    What the world needs is more murder. Go ask your local clergy man to sprinkle some holy water on your guns, arrows, swords, nunchucks, whatever. Support your local witch hunt and remember the Bible absolves murderers of murderers. Repeat, the death penalty is appropriate.

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/02/2007 @ 5:05pm

  125. "There is plenty of evidence to support Jesus upholding capital punishment. There is no evidence supporting Him abolishing it."

    Pretty scary when an apparent lack of evidence is just cause for an absence of common sense and decency. But everyone knows that while LL will savor and delight in passages perhaps intimating the first sentence, he doesn't look for or can't even see those which might contradict it.

    Posted by chimichenga at 01/02/2007 @ 5:16pm

  126. LL wrote, "A thinking person would understand that that it is not solely due to reasoning that the death penalty is either utilized or not utilized. The moral standards and religious beliefs of each society play a pivotal role."

    So, LL is writing that "a thinking person" will come to conclusions based on activities that do involve rational thought. I don't feel I need to expound on this and don't understand on what basis I can argue with someone who isn't willing to at least try to be rational.

    LL, you cannot go by majorities, because you will find yourself at a loss on this score just as frequently as I do. Much easier to do this: killing people bad; good people don't kill; good people find other ways of resolving conflict.

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/02/2007 @ 5:35pm

  127. liberty quoting Christ: grrr, kill, kill.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 01/02/2007 @ 5:41pm

  128. I can without any hesitation on a purely emotional basis conclude that those who do not execute these types of criminals do so because they lack adult reasoning capacity. Since all thinking adults I know of, both those with and those without advanced degrees share my belief me that the death penalty is appropriate.

    Kinda reduces me to subhuman status as I read it. But then again, since I am unable to think (I'm trying to think but nothing happens" - Curley Joe) and the exalted one's emotions clearly trump mine and since lynch law appears to trump well established western jurisprudence, I'll just have to rely on the word of LL. Let us prey.

    "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

    -Sinclair Lewis

    Posted by canaar at 01/02/2007 @ 5:50pm

  129. now we lack moral standards when we disagree with liberty.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 01/02/2007 @ 5:55pm

  130. "now we lack moral standards when we disagree with liberty."

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 01/02/2007 @ 5:55pm

    Cool.

    -----------------------------------------

    "Come on guys and gals...maybe CHIMI will put us up in his apartamento!"

    Posted by MASK 01/02/2007 @ 2:47pm

    Really cool....looking forward to the "cheaper senoritas???" (are they cheap, cause they're not American, potentially know chimi or cause they are brown?

    ------------------------------------------

    "There is plenty of evidence to support Jesus upholding capital punishment. There is no evidence supporting Him abolishing it."

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/02/2007 @ 5:08pm

    Hay-suess? What state does he hail from and what office does he hold in our government?

    Dead guys in charge? Hell, that's worse than the dead guys voting, that you seem obsessed with, inspite of it's happening long ago. But, then, you seem obsessed with what happened long ago, in leau of actual current reality.

    I am not a death penalty proponent. Mostly, because I don't think we are worth a shit at figuring out who's really guilty. I leave the philosophical debate, on whether we should execute murderers, until we learn how to definitavely identify them.

    On the other hand, I have read your bible. Your biblical god is a sick bastard, who has zero ethical authority amongst thinking, compassionate people. I guess 3rd century rabbis didn't get enough porn back then and needed something to get off...hence, your "holy" book.

    Eric

    Posted by Malcontent at 01/02/2007 @ 8:08pm

  131. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/02/2007 @ 5:08pm | ignore this person

    This is why I can't help but consider Leave Liberty to be a Pharisee most vile. He claims (falsely) that Jesus, who suffered an unjust capital punishment inflicted by men, actually condones the act!! And he uses a concoction of cherry-picked verses from the bible to 'prove' it. All the while, knowing full well, that he has cherry-picked, taken the verses completely out of context, mixed God's words and proclamation of HIS rights with those of men, and twisted the true meaning of Jesus works and words!!

    As to the specific verses he quotes, let's take a look.

    First, LL tells us that Jesus sends out his apostles with the warning that, in some of the places they would visit, they would be rejected and "It would be better for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city". But he then makes the absolutely absurd claim that "That sounds a lot like capital punishment on a wide scale to me" all the while knowing that one has to completely IGNORE the fact that it was GOD Himself who imposed punishment on those wicked cities...not men. That is NOT capital punishment as any men know it or practice it. The same is true for Jesus' words in Revelation when he warns the early church that God will exact punishment on them.

    Just as ludicrous, is the absurd notion that Peter and the apsotles administered captal punishment to Ananias and Sapphira for lying to God. Both were struck dead by the Holy Spirit, not Paul or the apostles, for their lies (soemthing LL would do well to remember.)

    Also, Paul's words are taken completely out of context. Paul had been teaching of the impending second coming of Jesus and his followers in many cities took that to mean that they no longer had to obey the laws that governed the lands in which they lived. Paul was trying to stop that behaviour. To claim Paul's words to mean ALL men, from that day forward, HAD to obey the laws of whatever land in which they lived, no matter how unjust, is beyond stupid. It would mean that everyone, from Jesus himself through the founding fathers of the United States, to Martin Luther King Jr. were somehow NOT christian because they did NOT obey the laws of the lands in which they dwelt.

    Finally, most disgusting of all, LL twists the VERY words of Jesus himself! In Mathew 15, Jesus has been approached by the Pharisees and asked to explain why his desciples don't follow the Mosaic laws and customs (washing their hands before a meal.) Jesus points out their hypocrisy, telling them that they themselves don't follow the laws...a prime example being that they don't execute children who 'curse' their parents (and instead, take money in the form of 'offerings' that the children should rightly be using to care for their parents.) LL would have us believe that Jesus himself is advocating that children should be executed for this 'crime'. And by extension of this 'logic', LL would have us believe that Jesus wants us to kill, just as is written in the first 5 books of the Old Testament, everyone who commits the 18 different crimes for which captial punishment if prescribed including adultery, beasteality, homosexual sex, and of course, Sabath-breaking. (But notably, capital punishment is NOT applied to someone who causes the death of a fetus...Exodus 21:22...the old laws prescribe a monetary penalty for that!)

    Of course, LL is hoping against hope that we'll all conveniently foget that Jesus himself STOPPED the capital punishment of the adulteress...John 8. And went on, in John 8:6 and 8:8 to 'write on the ground' a new version of the law, based on compassion, inward-looking self-reflection as in 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and mercy as in 'I judge not any man'.

    Posted by Lillian at 01/03/2007 @ 02:20am

  132. The Lord now wrote on the ground, because He was seeking fruit. You have heard then, Let the law be fulfilled, let the adulteress be stoned. But is it by punishing her that the law is to be fulfilled by those that ought to be punished? Let each of you consider himself, let him enter into himself, ascend the judgment-seat of his own mind, place himself at the bar of his own conscience, oblige himself to confess.

    Had He said, Let not the adulteress be stoned, He would be proved unjust: had He said, Let her be stoned, He would not appear gentle: let Him say what it became Him to say, both the gentle and the just, "Whoso is without sin of you, let him first cast a stone at her." This is the voice of Justice: Let her, the sinner, be punished, but not by sinners: let the law be fulfilled, but not by the transgressors of the law. This certainly is the voice of justice: by which justice, those men pierced through as if by a dart, looking into themselves and finding themselves guilty, "one after another all withdrew." The two were left alone, the wretched woman and Mercy. But the Lord, having struck them through with that dart of justice, deigned not to heed their fall, but, turning away His look from them, "again He wrote with His finger on the ground."

    But when that woman was left alone, and all they were gone out, He raised His eyes to the woman. We have heard the voice of justice, let us also hear the voice of clemency. For I suppose that woman was the more terrified when she had heard it said by the Lord, "He that is without sin of you, let him first cast a stone at her." But they, turning their thought to themselves, and by that very withdrawal having confessed concerning themselves, had left the woman with her great sin to Him who was without sin. And because she had heard this, "He that is without sin. let him first cast a stone at her," she expected to be punished by Him in whom sin could not be found. But He, who had driven back her adversaries with the tongue of justice, raising the eyes of clemency towards her, asked her, "Hath no man condemned you?" She answered, "No man, Lord." And He said, "Neither do I condemn you;" by whom, perhaps, you feared to be condemned, because in me you have not found sin. "Neither will I condemn you."

    Posted by Lillian at 01/03/2007 @ 02:20am

  133. nice Lillian, you have fleshed out what I posited from intuition and memory.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 08:09am

  134. New Jersey's death penalty should be abolished because it fails to deter murderers, burdens the state financially and is inconsistent with evolving standards of decency, a legislative panel said on Tuesday.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 08:20am

  135. evolving standards of decency. are you listening liberty?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 09:00am

  136. your kindness and compassion is staggering, lib.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 2:04pm

  137. there is still the issue of a miscarriage of justice, lib. incarceration leaves the possibility of redress.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 2:34pm

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