John Lennon's Legacy

On the anniversary of John Lennon's murder (Dec. 8, 1980), I've been thinking about his famous argument with Gloria Emerson in December, 1969 – filmed by the BBC, and included in the recent documentary The U.S. vs. John Lennon.

Emerson was a celebrated war correspondent for the New York Times who had just returned from the bloody battlefields of Vietnam; Lennon had just written "Give Peace a Chance" after he and Yoko declared their honeymoon a "bed-in for peace"--they had stayed in bed for a week, "in protest against all the violence in the world."

Emerson told him in her haughty upper class voice, "You've made yourself ridiculous!"

"I don't care," Lennon replied, "if it saves lives."

"My dear boy," she said, "you're living in a nether-nether land. . . . You don't think you've saved a single life!"

"You tell me what they were singing at the Moratorium," Lennon shot back – he was referring to the biggest anti-war demonstration in American history, which had been held in Washington DC a month earlier.

Emerson wasn't sure what he was talking about: "Which one?"

"The recent big one," Lennon explained. "They were singing "Give peace a chance."

"A song of yours, probably."

"Well, yes, and it was written specifically for them."

"So they sang one of your songs," she said with some irritation. "Is that all you can say?"

Now he was angry. "They were singing a happy-go-lucky song, which happens to be one I wrote. I'm glad they sang it. And when I get there, I'll sing it with them."

The film presents the exchange as an example of the mainstream media's relentless hostility to Lennon's peace activism, and celebrates his put-down of Emerson. But 37 years later, it's worth reconsidering Emerson's question: did "Give Peace a Chance" save a single life? Did the anti-war protest of 1969, or any other year, save any lives?

Of course the Vietnam war didn't end in 1969, even though Nixon had been elected the previous year after declaring he had a secret plan for peace. The Paris Peace Talks were already underway, but the American war didn't end for another four years – during which 20,000 Americans were killed, along with more than half a million Vietnamese and Cambodians.

You might ask Gloria Emerson's question about the anti-war demonstrations on the eve of the Iraq war, in New York, Los Angeles, London, Rome, and elsewhere. They were the biggest anti-war demonstrations in world history, but Bush invaded Iraq the next month anyway, and as of Dec. 8, 3,000 Americans have been killed there, and perhaps 650,000 Iraqis, according to the Johns Hopkins study published in The Lancet. Did those demonstrations in 2003 save a single life?

Maybe not, or at least not yet. Stopping a war takes a long time. But apathy in the face of an unjust war is simply unacceptable. As Rebecca Solnit argues in Hope in the Dark, you have to keep trying to win people over, because you can never be sure the forces of darkness will triumph, and because the most impossible things sometimes happen.

Lennon did come to the US, and eagerly embraced the steady work of anti-war persuasion and organizing. "Our job now is to tell them there still is hope," Lennon said at an anti-war rally in Michigan in 1971. "We must get them excited about what we can do again." It was hard to see it in 1969, but eventually the US did end its war in Vietnam. And today the people who were singing "Give Peace a Chance" in 1969 can be glad they sang it.

Comments (145)

1. The guy who assassinated John Lennon was a pawn of armageddonite, right-wing, bible-thumping religious nuts.

   Posted by fromredbird at 12/08/2006 @ 02:44am

2. The problem is that, with Give peace a chance, John Lennon was preaching to the converted. That song did not do anything more to end the Vietnam than Ob-la-di-ob-la-da did. Oh well, at least his 'hair-peace, bed-peace' stunt provided my city with a nice bit of folklore -- and the Amsterdam Hilton with a still hideously over-priced room.

   Ironically, war correspondents probably did more to end the Vietnam War than anyone else, by writing about the horrors, by taking pictures of them and by filming them. That was back in the days, of course, when the US government thought it could control the mainstream press with its five o'clock follies. The current administration is more skilled in the art of censorship, unfortunately -- and the mainstream media isn't what it used to be, of course.

   Posted by Amsterdam69 at 12/08/2006 @ 06:14am

3. Lennon was a genius.

   Not many guys can pull off the "Wife Gives You Permission To Bang The Nanny" thing!

   Posted by Mask at 12/08/2006 @ 09:21am

4. BTW....enough of this silliness too

   "It was hard to see it in 1969, but eventually the US did end its war in Vietnam. And today the people who were singing "Give Peace a Chance" in 1969 can be glad they sang it."

   Great....and WHEN did the war end? (thrown in "And WHO won the 1972 Presidential election" as well).

   This MYTH that "the kids" ended the Vietnam War is an historical joke.

   Nixon didn't push for the end of the war or sign off on the Paris Accords in January 1973 because of "campus protestors"....he'd won the election in a landslide OVER THE OBJECTION of the "youth vote".

   The war was unpopular with EVERYBODY, mostly the middle class and older voters who REALLY mattered (and still do) with politicians like Nixon.

   He may have though Lennon was a "dangerous radical" and spied on him...but he sure as hell wasn't worried about losing his vote, 'cuz he had a couple million sheet metal workers, longshoremen, bankers, garbage men, housewives, cab drivers, astronauts and wheat farmers that didn't like the war either and THEY made up the majority of the voters.

   John Lennon sang songs, "stayed in bed for peace", and made millions of dollars....but HIS effect on ending the war in Vietnam, was about 0.0000001% of the rest of the "anti-war movement's"....which wasn't much.

   Of course, myth's die hard...when they prop up a liberal ego!

   Posted by Mask at 12/08/2006 @ 09:46am

5. Paraphrase of Stewie Griffin- "Careful mask, or I'll do to you what I did to John Lennon. " skip to scene of Lennon at party. "John, this is Yoko Ono, Yoko, this is John."

   Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 10:03am

6. Songs, puppets and plays do not stop wars. People that voice their opinions in proper forums do. Elections. When they are frightened sheep elections can be swayed. The best anti-war tool is education.

   Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 10:05am

7. I'll tell you what ended the war in Vietnam: THE TRUTH. that came in the form of the secret Pentagon Papers, released by Daniel Ellsberg and published by the New York times. it was the first time the american people were shown the truth about that war.

   do we have an equivalent now? perhaps the Downing street memo, though our press covered that up by neglect.

   Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 10:09am

8. Posted by CRABWALK 12/08/2006 @ 10:03am

   Actually my favorite is a "Mystery Science Theatre 3000"...."Gamera vs. Guiron" Japanese monster flick.

   Little girl just saw her brother and American buddy kidnapped by a flying saucer, she rushes upto her mother and tells her, but the mother doesn't believe her. Little Japanese girl gets all pouty and Crow T. Robot voices-over...

   "I'll show her! I'll grow up to break up the Beatles!"

   Posted by Mask at 12/08/2006 @ 10:23am

9. Posted by ALANSMITHEE 12/08/2006 @ 12:23am

   Any chance we can get ALAN and LILLIAN together....love to see what the offspring turn out like!

   Posted by Mask at 12/08/2006 @ 1:08pm

10. Here the Nation goes again, looking back at what was instead of looking forward to the future. New ideas and fresh thinking is what makes change. The past only gives us history and John Lennon was history period. Most of today's youth aren't moved by what JL & YO and the older hippies did, they're into MTV, IPods, gaming consoles, crystal meth, rave parties and latest gear they can show off to their friends.

    Simply put, the older generation didn't help transition over the truly important stuff that mattered, instead they were out smokin mj with kids and their kids friends because they never grew up themselves. I see it every day...they come through my ICCU every month.

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 1:09pm

11. they come through my ICCU every month.

    they're coming in with cannabis related illnesses, is that your contention?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 1:19pm

12. I don't know how this fairly generic opinion got all the Yoko haters wound up again, but get over it/her. Don't you know the new Yoko is Heater Mills? Yes, John Lennon was rich. Yes, he only wrote protest songs and laid in bed. And yes, by today's standards, a Bed-In seems pretty silly. But they were well-covered by the press, and they got the message out. As did their "War is Over" billboards. So, mission accomplished. Lennon was the first to say he was advertising Peace. It ain't his fault it didn't take. Lennon could be an asshole - most of the time, I bet - but his was a voice that was best at cutting through and inspiring hope. For him, and us. Lame ideas aside. Rich rock star for sure. I missed him all the more after 9/11, and I still miss him today. Rock on, Yoko.

    Posted by Harrylime at 12/08/2006 @ 1:39pm

13. Yoko haters? you are overstating the case. I see no Yoko haters here. are you sure you didn't mean Bush haters? you know the ones always criticizing the war because they hate Bush.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 1:44pm

14. But what if the war is just another reason to hate Bush. See, then it's okay. Right?

    Posted by Harrylime at 12/08/2006 @ 2:04pm

15. I guess Mark Chapman didn't get the memo...

    Posted by woodyee at 12/08/2006 @ 2:20pm

16. Here the Nation goes again, looking back at what was instead of looking forward to the future. -ACOOK, nurse, nationalist, history buff?

    Part of the problem is that there has not been ENOUGH looking back. Remember, Chimp has a degree in history.

    1964...

    Johnson: Your speech is good, but I wonder if you shouldn't find two minutes to devote to Vietnam.

    McNamara: The problem is what to say about it.

    Johnson: I'll tell you what to say about it. I would say we have a commitment to Vietnamese freedom. We could pull out there; the dominoes would fall and that part of the world would go to the Communists ... Nobody really understands what is out there ... Our purpose is to train [the South Vietnamese] people, and our training's going good."

    McNamara: All right, sir.

    Ray Mcgovern: "Gates may have "fresh eyes," but if past is precedent he will add but marginally to the flavor of the self-licking ice cream cone that passes for Bush's coterie of advisers. What Bush has done is replace Rumsfeldian Tart with Sugary Gates. Otherwise, the Cheney/Bush recipe is likely to remain the same as the US draws nearer and nearer to the abyss in Iraq."

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 2:27pm

17. Crabwalk said: "The best anti-war tool is education." Songs, puppets and plays can be used for such education. If someone writes an antiwar song that sells millions of copies, critics will always claim they are doing it for the money. The artist may be getting rich off the song, but you have to ask why did millions of people buy the song? Was it just a catchy tune, or did something about it resonate with the people?

    Art can give voice to something that others might not have the words for. "Give Peace a Chance" did that as well as create an anthem for people to rally behind. Did it end the war sooner? Probably not, but I'm sure it made some people think about it more and made them want to be more involved.

    I'm tired of people thinking that musicians and other artists entertainers should keep their political views to themselves. They may be entertainers, but so are Bill O'Reily, Adrianna Huffington and 90% of the media that claims they are news.

    Posted by TheArgus at 12/08/2006 @ 2:59pm

18. "Did it end the war sooner? Probably not,"

    Posted by THEARGUS 12/08/2006 @ 2:59pm

    period, not comma. Anything else is wishful thinking.

    Posted by Mask at 12/08/2006 @ 3:06pm

19. Arg, er no. The Eve of Destruction was the biggest anti war song in the 60s, but The Ballad of the Green Beret was an even bigger seller.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 3:09pm

20. JOHANNESROLF, Didn't mean to imply GPAC was the biggest, best or only antiwar tune... only that music/art can and does have an impact on the masses...

    Posted by TheArgus at 12/08/2006 @ 3:13pm

21. "only that music/art can and does have an impact on the masses..."

    I think that is a dubious assertion. especially where the masses are concerned. I thought MY example demonstrated that.

    Goya, the greatest anti war artist was ignored by the masses. Leon Golub, with his prisoner paintings and now Botero with his Abu Ghraib paintings do not have a mass audience. actually very little art appeals to the masses.

    my favorites were Buffalo Springfield, "something's happening here..." and Country Joe and the Fish, "well it's one two three, what are we fighting for..." and above all Phil Ochs," I ain't marchin' anymore..."

    come to think of it, I agree with you on everything except the masses part.

    the green beret song was of course reactionary jingoism. the movie was even worse.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 3:29pm

22. one more thing, Barry McGuire who had the big hit with Eve of Destruction, found that to be a career killer. go figure. I don't know what happened to SGT Barry Sadler, nor do I care to.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 3:31pm

23. The Bed In and many anti-war activities of the late 60's seem quaint and naive four decades later, but most of them at least spawned from good intentions.

    Amsterdam69: The Hilton bed-in might have given a nice story to A-dam; but the actual song "Give Peace a Chance" was recorded at the second bed-in at the Queen Elizabeth Hotel in Montreal.

    Posted by spc123 at 12/08/2006 @ 3:33pm

24. Hey NEW DAWN...

    ...HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!

    Posted by Lillian at 12/08/2006 @ 3:55pm

25. I agree with Theargus. If arts and entertainment weren't such a powerful means of getting ideas across, commercials would look more like newscasts and less like music videos.

    Posted by habiba at 12/08/2006 @ 4:35pm

26. "they come through my ICCU every month.

    they're coming in with cannabis related illnesses, is that your contention?"

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 12/08/2006 @ 1:19pm

    Yes, in a manner of speaking...I have yet to meet an old hippie who still doesn't smoke the stuff and dream of the glory days of when they thought love, peace and flower power would rule the day.

    So far, 3 come in over the age of 50 who were impaired. All of them are "recreational users" as they would put it...and all of them caused very serious accidents including the one who killed a father of 2. They all tested positive for mj and alcohol.

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 4:42pm

27. ACOOK - Uh, what?

    Posted by Harrylime at 12/08/2006 @ 4:55pm

28. J-Rolf, I'd have to agree that most art (painting, sculptures, etc) has very little appeal to the masses, but music has a much wider appeal. I was born in '75, so the Vietnam war is nothing but a history lesson to me. The fact that I know and love most of the songs you mentioned, is a testament to them being a significant part of our history.

    Regardless of their importance... as someone who grew up on glam metal/rap, and later came to appreciate The Beatles, I miss Lennon's musical voice and his social commentary. Our world is a less beautiful place without him.

    Posted by TheArgus at 12/08/2006 @ 5:04pm

29. Sorry HARRYLIME, I was answering JR's question...

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 5:10pm

30. "This MYTH that "the kids" ended the Vietnam War is an historical joke."

    Mask is absolutely right, and serious anti-war student activists realized that they could not end the war after the national student strikes shut down a third of the nation's campuses for the better part of rest of a school year in the wake of the Kent State and Jackson State killings. When they saw that this had had absolutely no impact on the conduct of the war, the student left recognized that students just did not occupy a central enough place in the economy to be able to force the federal government, directly or indirectly, to pull out of Indochina.

    The student left of all stripes therefore took a great turn to the working class, with young socialists - social democrats to revolutionaries, Debsians to Maoists to Trotskyists - getting jobs in transportation, manufacturing, the utilities, the mines, the phone company (I'm dating myself), the post office, on the docks, etc., etc.. After all, the Mine Workers and Postal Workers had petrified the Nixon Administration when they had gone out on strike; heck, Nixon and Co. were apparently worried that the Postal strike might lead to a pre-revolutionary situation (talk about the politics of paranoia!). I imagine this is where many of the activists who built Teamsters For a Democratic Union and similar "rank-and-file" caucuses come from.

    Did they succeed in stopping the war from within the working class? No, for a number of reasons, a lack of time being only a minor one and an easy excuse. The war ended because the Vietnamese people weren't going to give up, the Nixon Administration and the U.S. Air Force had created a monster named the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, and the American people had seen and heard enough lies, body bags, body counts, demonstrations and riots and were tired, tired, tired. At least, that's my 60-second version of why we, deservedly, lost the war.

    Posted by cka2nd at 12/08/2006 @ 5:10pm

31. They all tested positive for mj and alcohol.

    Posted by ACOOK 12/08/2006 @ 4:42pm | ignore

    and you with your laserlike acuity concluded it's the cannabis. my hunch is that it's the alcohol. your example does not pass the most elementary evidence test.

    your dumping on old hippies is noted and discarded, you obviously need to travel in a better circle of acquaintances.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 5:21pm

32. after the national student strikes shut down a third of the nation's campuses for the better part of rest of a school year in the wake of the Kent State and Jackson State killings.

    this is not true, there were no national student strikes in this country. you may try to show otherwise, Ck

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 5:24pm

33. ACook - Don't blame the herb... blame the fools for combining alcohol + herb + driving.

    Posted by TheArgus at 12/08/2006 @ 5:25pm

34. If arts and entertainment weren't such a powerful means of getting ideas across, commercials would look more like newscasts and less like music videos.

    Posted by HABIBA 12/08/2006 @ 4:35pm | ignore this person

    I cannot disagree with that phenomena, but it does not prove anything you claim. look at some very old commercials from the beginning days of TV. you hypothesis still hold up?

    in case you live in a place where you cannot check this, they were holding up cue cards while they read the copy.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 5:28pm

35. JR, say what you like, and I know how you feel about mj and how you think it should be legalized, but I know what kind of mess it makes.

    "your dumping on old hippies is noted and discarded, you obviously need to travel in a better circle of acquaintances."

    ...and who would you have in mind that I should get to know??

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 5:34pm

36. JR, say what you like, and I know how you feel about mj and how you think it should be legalized, but I know what kind of mess it makes.

    I'm sure you are aware that alcohol, a far more dangerous and widely abused drug, makes quite a mess, drunk driving, spousal abuse, child abuse, violence and more. so perhaps you'd favor outlawing drink. wait, we've tried that haven't we. how'd that turn out?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 5:42pm

37. "your dumping on old hippies is noted and discarded, you obviously need to travel in a better circle of acquaintances."

    ...and who would you have in mind that I should get to know??

    I'm tempted to say: moi. but that may not be feasible.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 5:44pm

38. JR, to me any drug that impairs (and imprisons) the human mind is a very dangerous drug.

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 5:46pm

39. "your dumping on old hippies is noted and discarded, you obviously need to travel in a better circle of acquaintances."

    ...and who would you have in mind that I should get to know??

    I'm tempted to say: moi. but that may not be feasible.

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 12/08/2006 @ 5:44pm

    Thank the Lord!!

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 5:50pm

40. JR, to me any drug that impairs (and imprisons) the human mind is a very dangerous drug.

    Posted by ACOOK 12/08/2006 @ 5:46pm | ignore this person

    some are more dangerous than others. your attitude to treat them and their users all the same is very dangerous too, and ineffective. alcohol is a state sanctioned drug. legalizing weed could fill the tax coffers, and change little else. remember prohibition. it did not work. the war on drugs belongs in the same dustbin of history. most other countries have a better strategy.

    let's bring it all back home: do you personally use any alcohol? does your spouse? do your kids? a drink or two in moderation is the same a a jay or two in moderation. do you dispute that?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 5:54pm

41. Thank the Lord!!

    Posted by ACOOK 12/08/2006 @ 5:50pm | ignore this person

    tastes vary.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 5:55pm

42. BTW I never liked John Lennon or Yoko.

    You can call me a fuddy duddy, but I'm of the personal belief that JL jump on the "anti-war theme" of day because his image was starting to fade after the Beatles break up. It's quite common these days to see and hear some entertainer ranting about something just to keep their name in the newspapers, tabloids, and on the radio. Prime example: that cat named Bono

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 6:00pm

43. "...let's bring it all back home: do you personally use any alcohol? does your spouse? do your kids? a drink or two in moderation is the same a a jay or two in moderation. do you dispute that?"

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 12/08/2006 @ 5:54pm

    JR, I don't drink and neither does my husband. My children have never witnessed us bring liquor in the home, but they've seen the devastating effects it has on people.

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 6:04pm

44. JR, I don't drink and neither does my husband. My children have never witnessed us bring liquor in the home, but they've seen the devastating effects it has on people.

    Posted by ACOOK 12/08/2006 @ 6:04pm | ignore this person

    this is fine for you, but you sound like a right bore. nevertheless this is not a prescription the rest of the world is ready to take up.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 6:13pm

45. JR,

    "..some are more dangerous than others. your attitude to treat them and their users all the same is very dangerous too, and ineffective. alcohol is a state sanctioned drug. legalizing weed could fill the tax coffers, and change little else. remember prohibition. it did not work. the war on drugs belongs in the same dustbin of history. most other countries have a better strategy.

    You mean like they have in Amsterdam!!? A country that relizes heavily on toursims and reefer. Not much to offer does it?

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 6:17pm

46. You mean like they have in Amsterdam!!? A country that relizes heavily on toursims and reefer. Not much to offer does it?

    Posted by ACOOK 12/08/2006 @ 6:17pm | ignore this person

    ever been out of the country? ever been to Holland?

    you are unwilling or incapable to actually address the points

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 6:21pm

47. JR,

    "this is fine for you, but you sound like a right bore.

    Believe me, you're no walk in the park either...

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 6:25pm

48. Believe me, you're no walk in the park either...

    Posted by ACOOK 12/08/2006 @ 6:25pm | ignore this person

    I am endlessly fascinating, as everyone who has been reading me will attest to.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 6:29pm

49. JR, I've been out of the country twice and Holland was not my first or second choice. Actually, we went to the UK and Italy.

    What points would you like for me to address this time?

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 6:29pm

50. "I am endlessly fascinating, as everyone who has been reading me will attest to."

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 12/08/2006 @ 6:29pm

    Only in your lonesome mind....

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 6:31pm

51. ACook, You ARE a fuddy duddy.

    Are you implying that if weed was legalized, the entire US economy would come crashing down? Would all the white collar jobs go away and the people be forced to take low paying jobs at Walmart? Wait... that's happening anyway...

    Seriously though, is it worth sending someone to jail for the negative effects of marijuana? Is it worth the time and resources police spend to go after people who prefer the high of MJ to the low of alcohol. I think not... but that's my opinion.

    Since we are on a John Lennon related thread, I feel it is appropriate to quote from another brilliant musician: "Herb the gift, from the earth and what's from the earth is of the greatest worth. If you don't like my fire, then don't come around. Cuz, I'm gonna burn one down." -Ben Harper

    Posted by TheArgus at 12/08/2006 @ 6:32pm

52. YO JOHN, U DONE LOTS of GOOD

    Thank U, Roger Drowne EC

    See U Soon...

    http://www.EarthBall.org

    Creating Earth Ball Abodes 4 All Earth Citizens

    Join In Anytime, Anywhere On OUR Earth .

    Posted by RogerARTcom at 12/08/2006 @ 6:35pm

53. Only in your lonesome mind....

    Posted by ACOOK 12/08/2006 @ 6:31pm | ignore this person

    everybody's trying to be my baby,

    John Lennon sang this, though of course did not write this.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 6:35pm

54. JR, I've been out of the country twice and Holland was not my first or second choice. Actually, we went to the UK and Italy.

    and what are the drug policies of those countries? more humane than ours.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 6:38pm

55. Amsterdam is a beautiful old city, with many artistic, and other attractions. narco tourism they do not need, as you have implied.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 6:41pm

56. Holland has been a tolerant society for a long time. the puritans fled Holland for the US because it was too tolerant. the fact that NYC was originally a dutch city has contributed greatly to its eminence as the world's top city.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 6:44pm

57. As someone who has been an anti-war activist since the beginning of the War in Vietnam, I want to say that protestors do not unite only to change the situation but to keep our spirits and our sanity intact.

    Posted by sheri stein at 12/08/2006 @ 6:45pm

58. Posted by SHERI STEIN 12/08/2006 @ 6:45pm | ignore this person

    aptly put. that was me next to you in front of the pentagon.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 6:51pm

59. THEARGUS

    "Seriously though, is it worth sending someone to jail for the negative effects of marijuana? Is it worth the time and resources police spend to go after people who prefer the high of MJ to the low of alcohol. I think not..."

    Yes, it's worth sending someone to jail for the negative effects of mj, especially if they get behind the wheel of a 4,000 lb vehicle.

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 6:53pm

60. Cookie, let's get back to your original post. anyone who spends any time in an emergency rooms sees the many traffic injuries and often fatalities. driving a car is obviously a very dangerous activity. shall we ban driving and riding in cars? same with the consumption of alcohol and drugs.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 6:53pm

61. how about an octogenarian behind the wheel of a 4000 pound vehicle?

    you are confusing two separate issues, driving impaired and using drugs, including alcohol.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 6:56pm

62. "Holland has been a tolerant society for a long time. the puritans fled Holland for the US because it was too tolerant. the fact that NYC was originally a dutch city has contributed greatly to its eminence as the world's top city.

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 12/08/2006 @ 6:44pm

    Too bad NYC wasn't tolerant of Sean Bell....

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 6:56pm

63. JR,

    "how about an octogenarian behind the wheel of a 4000 pound vehicle?"

    ....then why are you still driving?

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 7:01pm

64. Too bad NYC wasn't tolerant of Sean Bell....

    Posted by ACOOK 12/08/2006 @ 6:56pm | ignore this person

    JR,

    "how about an octogenarian behind the wheel of a 4000 pound vehicle?"

    ....then why are you still driving?

    Posted by ACOOK 12/08/2006 @ 7:01pm | ignore this person

    you are a stupid clown, begone, I'm sorry I wasted my time with you. bore someone else to death.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 7:06pm

65. As to whether a song can save a life or a protest stop a war, the binary, limited perceptions see only yes or no. Yet between yes and no, lie a myriad of possibilities. Waking is often a slow process, rarely with a start. John Lennon will be marked as one of those who searched between the binary opposites for answers: you may say he's a dreamer, he's not the only one (Thank God!)

    Posted by muddydoggers at 12/08/2006 @ 7:09pm

66. I'm glad we're debating what effect demonstrations had on the length of the war. I attended some protests at the beginning of the Iraq war and had the same skepticism in the end: "Yeah, a lot more people driving by are for us than against, but are we DOING anything?" I think demostrations have to be a LOT larger and they have to drain the offices and stores to be effective. And we got the same problem in the elections of 2004 and 2006 that we did in 1968 or 1972 -- the two parties didn't let in the anti-war option. The 2006 win for the Dems has been said to be a referendum against the war, but the DLC party bosses are killing that possibility as we speak. Frankly, I don't know how to stop a war in this country. I don't think the constitution in its present form allows for direct-enough participation to effect such sharp changes in course. I think its creation was in fact intended to prevent direct democracy. Many attribute the end of the Vietnam war to massive (and hushed up) mutinies. Is that what we must try to do? Try to get the troops to mutiny? I guess serious changes in course require serious actions.

    Posted by Mark Precious at 12/08/2006 @ 7:11pm

67. ACook, I'd agree that anyone who gets behind the wheel of a car while impared on anything and injures someone deserves jail time. But if I'm sitting on the couch watching the boob tube and toking up, that's my business.

    That's one of the few reasons I'm glad I live in Oakland, CA. Weed is pretty much decriminalized here. The police are usually tied up with other things, like murder.

    Posted by TheArgus at 12/08/2006 @ 7:12pm

68. As much as I admired John Lennon while he was alive and regret the tragedy of his murder, I have to say that giving John credit for ending the war in Vietnam makes as much sense as blaming Jane Fonda for the loss.

    When the U.S. intervened in Vietnam, they went to the rescue of a French-appointed, Catholic government that had suspended all elections in a country where more than 85% of the population was Buddhist and viewed the government of South Vietnam as a dictatorial puppet of foreign imperialists. The U.S. did not go into Vietnam to spread democracy but to defend the dictatorial (but pro-capitalist) government of South Vietnam. The U.S. could not win that war because the overwhelming majority of Vietnamese opposed the U.S. presence in Vietnam. But the straw that finally brought that unwinnable war to an end was not public opinion, but a Middle-Eastern oil embargo.

    Posted by rexrobards at 12/08/2006 @ 7:14pm

69. interesting point rex, but by the time of the oil embargo '73 most ground troops had been withdrawn, signaling an end to the US involvement, though the air war continued for years.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 7:27pm

70. Argus, that used to be the case here in NYC. we used to smoke openly in the street, in movie theatres etc but no more.of course in many places now any smoking is frowned upon, which I support.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 7:29pm

71. Quick response, din din is on its way...

    What I meant by "songs, puppets and plays" is the syrupy chanting, "street art" and silly puppets we see at anti-war events. This kind of activity lessons the power of our message, and makes us look like hippy dips that deserve to be ignored or mocked. A popular song, such as Buffalo Springfields "for What its worth" can have a galvanizing effect. that song in particular rings true even today.

    although the flower in the barrel picture was a powerful message.

    ps, I am an "art-eest" myself. a-political if you can believe it. No need to explain my art, no hidden messages. Make pretty things, sell them. Pay mortgage.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 7:34pm

72. At War with a plant. How fckd up can a country get?

    conservatives, STAY OUT OF MY BEDROOM AND LIVING ROOM! none of your damn business what I do there. smoke, woopie.

    Its called conservatism.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 7:37pm

73. Crab, got any pics? a site? see the Botero paintings?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 7:38pm

74. Inspired by John Lennon and "Give Peace a Chance," here is a new song for a new war.

    http://iraqjustacomma.cf.huffingtonpost.com

    Posted by Zed Jones at 12/08/2006 @ 7:39pm

75. Zed - I don't think that one will ever reach the status of "Give Peace a Chance" or "For What it's Worth"... but I definitely appreciate the sentiment.

    Crabman - amen to that.

    Posted by TheArgus at 12/08/2006 @ 8:24pm

76. No pics that don't have my name attached. I enjoy my anonymity here. If you go to the Atlantis Casino/Hotel on Paradise Island, Bahamas you will see some of my work I did while with a company out of Virginia. Quality was not up to my standards, but some of it is cool. Got to sit and watch an initial fitting of Chihuly one day in the casino. Very cool. I have many tales from just 2 weeks working there, including the guy that roped himself to a line attached to a outside manlift. When the crew in the lift went up he was pulled across the building, through 2 doors and a hall, dragged out a window and dangled from the rope about 70 feet up. funny for the rest of us.

    I am an accidental art-eest. All on-the-job training, basically. I got to be one because I discovered a medium that lets me get paid to play with fire, sparks, smoke and big heavy hammers. A good way to woo women. Very little art history, my wife has her degree in that (you want fires with that tuition bill?), so she guides and critiques me. When I figure out a way to post some pics anonymously I will.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 8:39pm

77. Crabbie, who is Buffalo Springfield? This is a name I'm not familiar with.

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 9:11pm

78. Crab, you sound like a one man "burning man". I have made art since the 70s, sold a few drawings, had a show or two. I make some computer art, take arty photographs. not a career, but an occupation. my career is to serve other artists, performing artists. I have never been rich but I have had something more precious, a lot of "free" time. one of the great experiences is to go to someone's house and see one of your pictures on their wall.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 9:12pm

79. to MASK12: "....and WHEN did the war end? (thrown in "And WHO won the 1972 Presidential election" as well). "

    "They were afraid of Muskie and look who's out! They wanted to run against McGovern and look who they're running against." (approx. quote from 'Deep Throat' in "All the President's Men".

    Need anyone point out that the '72 election was stolen by Nixon's 'dirty tricks'? But you'll prolly accuse me of being 'revisionist'.

    Posted by phat_dawg at 12/08/2006 @ 9:17pm

80. Crabbie, who is Buffalo Springfield? This is a name I'm not familiar with.

    Posted by ACOOK 12/08/2006 @ 9:11pm | ignore this person

    you HAVE heard of the google.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 10:03pm

81. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Buffalo Springfield was a short-lived, yet highly original and influential, folk rock group that served as a springboard for the careers of Neil Young, Stephen Stills, Richie Furay and Jim Messina and is most famous for the song "For What It's Worth." After its formation in April 1966, a series of disruptions, including internal bickering, as well as the pressure of working in the music industry, resulted in constant changes in the group's lineup -- and ultimately culminated in the group disbanding after roughly 25 months. Buffalo Springfield released a total of only three albums but also left a legacy that includes numerous demo recordings, studio outtakes, and live recordings.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 10:04pm

82. That actually tells me a lot about you, ACOOK. If you have never heard "For What Its Worth", I suggest you start there. I find that hard to believe, though. You missed out o the best part of the 60's and 70's perhaps. The music. I am fortunate to be young enough to have missed the riots and strife, but old enough to have found the tunes before they got stale. but now i get to relive some of the bad, in the form of Vietnam II, Battle for A Legacy.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 10:31pm

83. Burning Man. I would love to do that, once. Sounds like a big Dead Head fest, which I could miss. But i would love to see some of the cool stuff that gets built. I frown on most self-described artists, sometimes they are way too full of themselves and "art". But when you combine engineering, technical know-how, art and fire, wheee. Good stuff can happen. Throw in Grand Father peyote' and a swell time could be had.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 10:38pm

84. the best part of the 60s was the freedom, to be whatever you wanted to be. the music was great, but so was be bop and ragtime, to mention just a few. it was as if someone had opened all the windows and let a fresh breeze in. the 60s did not start in 1960, that was still the 50s. they started with "I wanna hold your hand". we worked when we needed money, played the rest of the time. careerism was for the squares. we were hippie nation, hitchhiking to california, crash pads, shared drugs, shared sex, above all optimism, a belief in a limitless future. we would be in charge, and we would legalize that motherfucker. dress codes? no fucking way, we were colorful peacocks.we were freaks who grooved. do not forget that the personal computer was invented by hippie phone freaks in a garage in silicon valley and elsewhere. we were spiritual above all else, tripping, chanting, dancing. a the memories of an "octogenarian" NOT. my mom would be an octogenarian had she lived.I have entered my sexy sixties, look out world here I come.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 10:44pm

85. Posted by CRABWALK 12/08/2006 @ 10:38pm | ignore this person

    Jean Tinguely, a swiss artist built machines that would selfdestruct, pieces flying through the air.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 10:49pm

86. Crabbie, what do you think you know about me? I grew up reading about and watching the Vietnam war on TV. I didn't like growing up in the 60s and I hated the 70s even more. My folks listen to a lot of R&B, Blues and Jazz.

    Was that guy a folk singer?

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 10:49pm

87. "you HAVE heard of the google.

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 12/08/2006 @ 10:03pm"

    Geez, you dashed my hopes of being on your ignore list...

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 10:55pm

88. That you missed the world you were growing in. That you seem to hate something you now little about, "The Left". If you don't know who the Springfield was, you don't know about the anti-establishment movement.

    Or you're being deliberately obtuse.

    Soon, soon, i will build a trebuchet. Cows beware!!

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 11:01pm

89. http://www.trebuchet.com/

    now I know.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 11:08pm

90. cooks, you are incapable of carrying on a simple discussion, something I'm sure will limit your exposure here. dumb as a box of rocks. is that better?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 11:10pm

91. Crabbie, I missed the world? No, my world was just different from yours. And, I know enough about "the Left" not to trust them so much.

    As for my lack of knowledge regarding Springfield, my parents didn't expose me or my siblings to that kind of music because it didn't appeal to them.

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 11:10pm

92. If we build a giant wooden badger...

    Sorry, it's a disease.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 11:14pm

93. You do know who Monty Python are? Please?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 11:15pm

94. Posted by ACOOK 12/08/2006 @ 11:10pm | ignore this person

    my you poor child. in the 60s we didn't give a damn what our parents listened to, or if they liked our music, or anything else about them, hence the generation gap.

    your world? BORING

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 11:16pm

95. Geez, you dashed my hopes of being on your ignore list...

    Posted by ACOOK 12/08/2006 @ 10:55pm | ignore this person

    you can ignore, but you cannot make others ignore. beautiful.

    ever sit in a tree in the middle of the night to listen to a night bird's song, and have to explain that to the campus police?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 11:19pm

96. JR, if I'm as dumb as you say, please send me to your ignore list because only in your feeble old mind, no one could ever be as smart and as worldly as you.

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 11:19pm

97. budget allows this...http://tinyurl.com/yhkrh6

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 11:21pm

98. "You do know who Monty Python are? Please?"

    Posted by CRABWALK 12/08/2006 @ 11:15pm

    Of course I know who Monty Python is....why?

    Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 11:21pm

99. Where you dressed? could be a nuisance violation. Small Misdemeanor.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 11:23pm

100. no begging, cookie. if you're not as dumb as I say, prove it. maybe you'll live to see 60, and maybe you won't. if I should go tomorrow, I will go secure in the knowledge that I have LIVED. you may wrap your little petit bourgeois mind around that.

     Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 11:23pm

101. Crab, I was not nude. it's just explaining the color chartreuse to a blind man.

     Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 11:25pm

102. Har! good one!

     Chimp is the one eyed man in this tale, I do believe.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 11:30pm

103. "...ever sit in a tree in the middle of the night to listen to a night bird's song, and have to explain that to the campus police?"

     Posted by JOHANNESROLF 12/08/2006 @ 11:19pm

     God no. Had you kept your mouth shut instead of trying to sound like a half dead warbler (admit it, that was you trying to sing), the campus police would have never noticed you up there.

     Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 11:31pm

104. Posted by ACOOK 12/08/2006 @ 11:31pm | ignore this person

     see what I mean? you cannot conceptualize something like that. that's why you are a boring old fart without being old.

     Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 11:37pm

105. Tell us you at least stop and smell roses?

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 11:39pm

106. JR, I will live far longer and better than you ever will. It's called living gracefully, but you wouldn't know anything about that.

     As you are all too aware, life is not measured by how many breaths you take, but by moments that take your breathe away...(anonymous)

     Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 11:44pm

107. "Tell us you at least stop and smell roses?"

     Posted by CRABWALK 12/08/2006 @ 11:39pm

     I take time out for many things, but not by your definition of life itself.

     Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 11:50pm

108. every woman turns into her mother, that is her tragedy. no man does, that is his.

     Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 11:53pm

109. JR, I understood what you meant in your last post, but I'm more serious about my life than you are. I don't take things for granted.

     Posted by ACook at 12/08/2006 @ 11:53pm

110. Are you sure you are not the polish night nurse i had a few years ago? The one that jabbed the needles in and yanked out the catheter.

     All about the compassion, aren't you?

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/08/2006 @ 11:55pm

111. JR, I will live far longer and better than you ever will.

     sure you will. but your obit will be two lines, mine will be a paragraph.

     Posted by johannesrolf at 12/08/2006 @ 11:57pm

112. Two lines is easier to remember....hehehe

     Posted by ACook at 12/09/2006 @ 12:02am

113. Crabbie, did you at least ask the nurse for her name?

     Posted by ACook at 12/09/2006 @ 12:03am

114. Gentlemen, goodnite....

     Posted by ACook at 12/09/2006 @ 12:08am

115. I knew it at the time. They have little tags with their name on it. She did bring the blessed morphine. But she was mean, and disgruntled. Like your posts here.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/09/2006 @ 12:09am

116. Ratchet. Nurse Ratchet.

     At least thats what I called her.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/09/2006 @ 12:11am

117. tell you what cooks, let's each write our obits, as an exercise. not to share here, we can burn them after.

     enjoy your family, as I enjoy mine

     Posted by johannesrolf at 12/09/2006 @ 12:14am

118. My kind of guy...

     ACTON ROUND, England--With surprising grace, the grand piano sails through the sky a hundred feet above a pasture here, finally returning to earth in a fortissimo explosion of wood chunks, ivory keys and piano wire. Nor is the piano the strangest thing to startle the grazing sheep this Sunday morning. A few minutes later, a car soars by - a 1975 blue two-door Hillman, to be exact - following the same flight path and meeting the same loud fate. Pigs fly here, too. In recent months, many dead 500-pound sows (two of them wearing parachutes) have passed overhead, as has the occasional dead horse.

     It's the work of Hew Kennedy's medieval siege engine, a four story tall, 30 ton behemoth that's the talk of bucolic Shropshire, 140 miles northwest of London. In ancient times, such war machines were dreaded instruments of destruction, flinging huge missiles, including plague-ridden horses, over the walls of besieged castles. Only one full-sized one exists today, designed and built by Mr. Kennedy, a wealthy landowner, inventor, military historian and - need it be said? - - full-blown eccentric.

     ...But a few drawings show dead horses being loaded onto trebuchets, putrid animals being an early form of biological warfare.

     ....Finally, there's the prospect of flinging a man into space - a living man, that it. This isn't a new idea, Mr. Kennedy points out: Trebuchets were often used to fling ambassadors and prisoners of war back over castle walls, a sure way to demoralize the opposition.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/09/2006 @ 12:17am

119. When I die, load me up, fire me at a "jet-ski". Even better, load my ashes into pellets and fire them, repeatedly, at said "personal water-craft" users.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/09/2006 @ 12:18am

120. I would like to be buried in potters field, with the unclaimed ones. also potters field in my town is a beautiful island, around which I have kayaked many times, one couldn't wish for a nicer spot. not that I'm in a rush.

     after that exchange with cook I remember what it must have been like in the sandbox at age two.

     Posted by johannesrolf at 12/09/2006 @ 12:23am

121. As the missed Frankgrits said, the neos are a surly lot, with nary a sense of humor.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/09/2006 @ 12:30am

122. And now . . . back to John Lennon. What do any of us really know about John Lennon? He was a product and he knew it. He was an artist, and he knew that too. He had balls. He did much more than write blogs to The Nation. From the top of the world, this intelligent, sensitive guy reached out to the rest of us because he thought it was important. He used the bully pulpit. What do you think MASK. What's wrong with that? John Lennon was a communicator, extrodinaire. Have you written anything that millions around the world gladly listened to, time after time? Or just living behind the MASK?

     Posted by lorent at 12/09/2006 @ 12:54am

123. Jon Wiener went in the wrong direction here. Songs and protests do not end wars. Songwriters and singers do not save lives. It is the leaders of warring factions who start and stop wars. However, sometimes some members of the arts community tap into restive feelings extant in the land. They give voice through their art to sentiments that might otherwise go unarticulated. The point is those feelings already existed. Lennon tapped into this edgy undercurrent in the 60s and gave it expression.

     I am a John Lennon fan. (I think Imagine was his most inspired work.) To the extent he believed he saved lives, as Lennon told Gloria Emerson, he was simply wrong. It is more likely true that he was just caught up in the larger movement and had a sense that he was contributing to the solution. There is nothing wrong with having that view. Many, if not most, people who participate in protest marches believe they are "doing their part."

     It seems to me that what artists do is inspire people through their work. Their songs, movies, poems, literature, performances, paintings, etc, may not end wars, prevent diseases, feed the hungry, but they might inspire others to act. As he reflected on the anniversary of John Lennon's death, rather than ask if demonstrations saved lives, Wiener should have explored and developed another Lennon quote he cited: "We must get them excited about what we can do again."

     Posted by seattlescribe at 12/09/2006 @ 02:05am

124. "Through their art and sentiments." Sentiment is an iteresting cocept to explore. Do so as you may. John Lennon expored it as thoroughly as he had the chance to. We are all emotional beings. Thus the belief in the sky-god,Jesus and Mohammed, Confucius, Israel, and the U.S. of A. Walk down the steets in the heart of any U.S. city, and see what the believers have left to their fellows.

     Communication creates lifetimes. So many listened. Revisit "Gimme Some Truth." I'll never forget it. I own it.

     Posted by lorent at 12/09/2006 @ 02:58am

125. The film presents the exchange as an example of the mainstream media's relentless hostility to Lennon's peace activism

     Well here's one big difference between then and now. The kids who were singing "Give Peace a Chance" are now running the news rooms. Hostility has become support.

     Posted by Person at 12/09/2006 @ 07:59am

126. So what's the answer to the basic question of the column? Does idealism make a difference any more? I would answer yes. Idealism has influenced public opinion and has ultimately influenced the decision making in Iraq.

     Idealism - Definition #2 - The practice of forming ideals and living under their influence.

     There has been idealism on both sides of the Iraq debate, but it looks like the idealism of "peace" or "anti-war" has the current momentum. I think it would be unfair not to label Bush an idealist, as well. I believe he is trying to achieve the ideal of peace and stability in the Middle East. I believe he is trying to achieve it through the practice of pragmatism

     Pragmatism - 1) A practical approach to problems - 2) The doctrine that truth is preeminently to be tested by the practical consequences of belief.

     I like #2. It makes sense to me. So my question: What are the practical consequences of the opposing forms of idealism? The idealism of the left, which is to achieve peace through peace? Or the idealism of the right, which is to achieve peace through conflict?

     Posted by Person at 12/09/2006 @ 08:39am

127. I see little support of the anti-war movement out of news rooms. They are starting to get it, but slowly. I am not so sure that the give peace a chance folks are running the show. More like people like Cookie, ones that missed out on the fun of the 60's. People like Cheney and chimp. One missed out because he had "other priorities", one had lots of fun, did the drugs, but missed the point. chimp probably thought the anti-establishmnet movement was anti-American. Just like he does now.

     And now some of the neo-s will try to point out that it was anti-American, having drawn wrong conclusions for nigh on 40 years. At the same time they will try to tell us war=peace, illegal wire taps are legal and the sun is blue today.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/09/2006 @ 08:58am

128. FREE MARK CHAPMAN!!!!!

     Posted by woodyee at 12/09/2006 @ 09:01am

129. Seriously.....Left, Right, Middle....

     what do we have like a 20-2 ratio who are saying that Mr Weiner is off-base with this idea that John Lennon did ANYTHING to shorten the Vietnam War???

     Posted by Mask at 12/09/2006 @ 10:05am

130. I think Pete Seeger did more to end the Vietnam war than Lennon did, though the latter had a larger audience. Seeger lead by example, and he wasn't some billionaire rock star.

     I beg your indulgence for last night's mudfest.

     Posted by johannesrolf at 12/09/2006 @ 10:14am

131. FREE MARK CHAPMAN!!!!!

     Posted by WOODYEE 12/09/2006 @ 09:01am | ignore this person

     free Hinkley

     Posted by johannesrolf at 12/09/2006 @ 10:25am

132. Thanks, Jon, for all your work on John Lennon. I recently read Gimme Some Truth, given to me by my 17 year old son, and I hope it stays in print for many years. As the man once said, "Apathy isn't it, and we can do something." John Fullinwider, Dallas

     Posted by srollins at 12/09/2006 @ 11:34am

133. Just passing by... Comments from last night were highly entertaining!

     Very surprised at the reluctance to give credit where credit is due, in my opinion. How can we possibly say that John Lennon or the millions of other individuals who protested didn`t have an effect on ending the war in Vietnam? Left to their own devices, does anyone really believe the U.S. Gov´t would have pulled out of Vietnam prior to achieving their definition of a "win" (barren wasteland, complete subjugation of the Vietnamese to corporate forces)? For example, with instantaneous worldwide information and 24hr coverage, could the wars against the Native Americans have ever lasted 200 yrs? Plenty of people, not counting the millions of natives, knew it was immoral. But their voices were too scattered and marginalized, without strong enough outlets to organize their message. We still have a very long way to go, but we certainly aren´t living in 1821.

     Posted by Jimbo113 at 12/09/2006 @ 11:53am

134. Jim, the policy against the indians was smash and grab. they had something we wanted, land, and we took it. see also war with Mexico, smash and grab. most history could be summed up in those words. Thanks to professor Eugen Weber, emeritus at UCLA, also my "main man".

     Posted by johannesrolf at 12/09/2006 @ 1:11pm

135. Crabbie,

     "More like people like Cookie, ones that missed out on the fun of the 60's. People like Cheney and chimp. One missed out because he had "other priorities", one had lots of fun, did the drugs, but missed the point."

     The world you speak of is no more (thank God!!)...I hated the 60s and the 70s. My world was not a fun place to be in. Your anti-establishment world caused chaos in mine....to me and my family, it was your kind that didn't give peace a chance. Those are the memories I have...

     John Lennon is dead...

     Posted by ACook at 12/09/2006 @ 1:26pm

136. LVLIBERTY1, Buffalo Sprinfield didn't exist in my world.

     Posted by ACook at 12/09/2006 @ 1:30pm

137. Classical, Jazz, Blues, Big Band, Rock, Motown, were all part of our genre.

     Posted by LVLIBERTY1 12/09/2006 @ 1:36pm | ignore this person

     you are misusing the word genre. the list you provide are all genre-s. this is offered not in the spirit of criticism, I do that plenty with you justified or not, but rather in the spirit of improvement.

     Posted by johannesrolf at 12/09/2006 @ 1:47pm

138. Your anti-establishment world caused chaos in mine....to me and my family, it was your kind that didn't give peace a chance. Those are the memories I have...

     this is all very general. there is no way of knowing what you actually mean by this.

     Posted by johannesrolf at 12/09/2006 @ 1:49pm

139. At the onset of the Iraq war, George Bush said "I gave peace a chance." He lied, of course. One of the quotes that should be preserved, just like Rumsfeld telling us that they were dropping "humane bombs" in Iraq in the first week of the war.

     Posted by Ricardoah at 12/09/2006 @ 2:17pm

140. I think Lennon as part of the anti-war movement helped end the war. But the GI movement really put some teeth into the anti-war movement. The two mutually reinforced each other. Check out "Sir! No Sir!" for an excellent video about GI resistance. But it was really the Vietnamese people who stopped the war.

     Posted by John M Repp at 12/09/2006 @ 3:10pm

141. Coming from a generation after Lennon's bed in took place and peace songs were sung, not only do I wish I had lived in a time of such sincerity and feelings of civil and social responsibility, but I also believe, not naively according to some myth, but from experience that Lennon did make a difference. His music and message affected more than simply college students. My father--a conservative physician and Lieutenant Colonel in the army at the time--as well as my mother both listened to and enjoyed the Beatles; in fact, they were the only pop band they did like. Those who lived on military bases, like my parents, had made career decisions by joining the army, just as many now have, that put them IN the war but not in agreement with the war.

     And the vitriol again liberals, Lennon and Yoko Ono not only is tediously cliche and off topic, it also points to the angry impotence of the right wing. The last election suggests that hateful, straw man rhetoric will no longer fool even the most ignorant and that pisses these guys off something fierce.

     Posted by Urania7 at 12/09/2006 @ 5:20pm

142. About the effect of demonstrations: Years ago I was a garbage collector in Columbia, Mo., and I took a vacation day to protest the first day of draft registration under President Carter. I stood in front of the Post Office with a sign urging 18-year-olds not to register. The next day in the lunchroon at work everyone there had something to say to me about the issue because I had been on televisison. My little demonstration provoked a storm of discussion. Demonstrations might not end the war, but it brings the issue to people's attention and provokes discussion which in turn means that people may change their minds. About what ended the Vietnam War: The war ended, I believe because the United States no longer had an army willing to fight. The fact that it wouldn't fight was a product of years of work by the anti-war movement of which demonstrations were only a part.

     Posted by bisrael1950 at 12/10/2006 @ 2:12pm

143. Whoever wrote that protests do not end wars know zero about history, how do you think WWI ended for before the Russian Revolution and Lenin swept into Moscow and rendered the czar on the scrap heep of history. Do you think that wasn't a long term and long range protest movement too. Actually much more powerful than the USA protests of the vietnam era. Psychotic dictators like Bush and Nixon were hell bent to pursue their respective wars, Bush is actually much worse at least tricky dick could say Johnson and the Kennedy best and brightest started it. The middle east is the very last place that one should have an irretractable unless you want to steal the oil for your Father conspiritorial "friends" who just happened to go balls to the wall a few yrs before to get you selected in a near constitution crisis and happen to depend on them also to write a report to get your ass the fuck out of there...this is the worst thing ever. Of course John Lennon had an impact on social change in this country what the hell would you waste time arguing that for, elections in this country are immaterial. Lennon was a singer, poet and more when the temperature of the USA is toxic mad dogs and some great Englishman go to the barricades he gave it all...we love hime still

     Posted by hoctor at 12/10/2006 @ 7:27pm

144. I cannot now remember whether Student Moratorium Day preceded or followed Kent State Day when I was a high school sophomore back in Canton, Ohio in the spring of 1970. But I will tell you this -- wearing black arm bands, congregating at a city-wide Moratorium rally, touting peace, and singing Give Peace of Chance, were acts of militancy at our high school, and many, many people participated. Singing for peace in the face of an unbending commitment to war can be totally militant. John's reach was so broad, he may well have been the biggest (and by far the most beautiful) militant of them all. War is Over, if you want it. Christ, you know it ain't easy. Right?!

     Posted by wrw5 at 12/11/2006 @ 12:22pm

145. John Lennon like Bobby Kennedy in a sense was a prophet. He provided a focal point on a war that should have never been; much like today. Too bad, he is gone, as we have no one like him today. He was more than hair peace. He was peace!

     Posted by Bill Dem at 12/13/2006 @ 09:45am