Does Joe Wilson Believe the President Was Actually Lying?

posted by Christopher Hayes on 09/10/2009 @ 08:31am

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First of all: I'm back! Somewhere in the Bible it decrees that blogs must be left fallow in August, which explains my absence.

Like everyone else I watched the speech last night. (Quick review: deft explanation of the policy, a few unnecessary political concessions, extremely aggravating lefty-bashing, and genuinely fantastic inspirational finish). And like everyone else I've been following the Joe Wilson "You Lie!" flap.

Now here's what I think is most fascinating about the incident: It's pretty clear to me that Wilson's outburst wasn't calculated grandstanding but a genuine moment of rage and frustration. Just look at the photo. That's a genuinely pissed off dude.

But the thing is: Obama wasn't lying. Illegal immigrants are explicitly barred from the provisions of the legislation.

Here's what I find fascinating. There's been a ton of viral emails floating around the right-wing making the claim that the bill covers illegal immigrants, and talk radio has been whipping up the fervor as well. Wilson clearly thinks that is, indeed, the case. But he's a sitting member of Congress! One would imagine he gets his information about pending legislation from reading it itself or being briefed by his staff, not from viral emails in his inbox.

But that sums up the House GOP caucus. By and large it's made up of absolute and total wingnuts, people who are in ideology disposition and even function much more like talk show hosts or RedState commenters than they are legislators.

Comments (287)

Clearly, the health-care reform will not cover services for illegal aliens, for the following reasons:

All legal residents of the United States will carry identity cards that they will present when they see a heath-care provider so that that provider will know they can legally bill the appropriate insurance plan. Health-care providers will submit the information from the identity card when they request reimbursement. In suspicious cases the government will investigate to determine if the identity card is forged, in which case the card-holder will be required to pay restitution for services obtained under false pretenses. If the person fails to reimburse the health-care provider, the health-care provider will notify the government, which will investigate to determine the person's country of origin and will bill that country for the treatment. If the health-care provider is determined to have colluded in the fraud, the health-care provider will be sanctioned.

In all cases where a person receives emergency medical care the hospital will determine the residency status of the ill or injured person. If that person is in the country illegally, the hospital will bill that person for all services provided. If the person fails to reimburse the hospital, the hospital will notify the government, which will investigate to determine the person's country of origin and will bill that country for the treatment.

Posted by Mistral at 09/10/2009 @ 08:39am
Brilliant article I wrote, don't you think, OneVote?

Anyway....supporters of health care reform should all issue a e-greeting Thank You card to Joe Wilson (R-SC).

He did the nearly impossible...shooting both HIMSELF and the Republican Party in the foot with one bullet.

A. By painting Obama's opposition...from the Town Hollerers to the House GOP as a bunch of "screamers", not thinkers, and so out-of-control they have to not only shout down Congresspeople at local meetings...but the President of the United States IN Congress.

B. Rob Miller has not gotten national prominence...a HUGE donation base nation-wide....and will probably get help from the DNC and other groups, where as before he would have been "written off".

Brilliant move, Joe.

Posted by Mask at 09/10/2009 @ 08:43am
'Clearly, the health-care reform will not cover services for illegal aliens, for the following reasons:' -- Mistral

Didn't see all that stuff anywhere in the bill.

Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/10/2009 @ 08:43am
Chris and Mistral: Please clarify. I heard reporting that providers will be barred from asking whether a person is in the country legally. I'd add that if Mistral's last paragraph is true, then immigrants will suspect deportation is a consequence and probably will hesitate to use the system. This is a fundamentally bad outcome for all manner of reasons.

Posted by mpanetta at 09/10/2009 @ 08:43am
I believe the right-wing meme is that there's not a method for a hospital to verify whether a person is an illegal alien or not.

As Mistral said, supra, there are some pretty obvious ways to make that determination. We're dealing with an existing health care system that today puts at least an equal premium on verifying who will be paying the bill as diagnosing and treating the reason the patient is being seen.

So I can understand why Wilson, in his own ignorance, thinks its a lie. What I can't understand is why the far right is suddenly concerned with regulation and verification when it comes to an illegal alien being given medical treatment after 8 years of trying to keep the government out of private enterprise, and why they're suddenly so concerned about spending just shy of a trillion dollars to save peoples lives after writing blank checks to George W. Bush to kill people.

Posted by PBCliberal at 09/10/2009 @ 08:50am
Chris and Mistral: Please clarify

Posted by mpanetta at 09/10/2009 @ 08:43am

It was a joke. There's no way to prevent the government paying for medical care for illegal aliens. I mean, if they could prevent it the government wouldn't be paying for it now. Not that that's a bad thing: if we have people working in this country, legally or illegally, for the sake of public health they shouldn't be thrown out in the street. Maybe we could count the cost of treating them as part of our foreign aid budget.

Posted by Mistral at 09/10/2009 @ 08:50am
hr3200 sec 246 Bring it on!

Posted by vanflatz at 09/10/2009 @ 08:50am
"There's no way to prevent the government paying for medical care for illegal aliens."----Posted by Mistral at 09/10/2009 @ 08:50am

So why is "health care reform will pay for illegal immigrants" a talking point of the Right?!??!?

Posted by Mask at 09/10/2009 @ 08:53am
'It was a joke.' -- Mistral

I see, you were being ironic. I guess it's more polite than saying the President's a liar.

Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/10/2009 @ 08:54am
I see, you were being ironic. I guess it's more polite than saying the President's a liar.

Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/10/2009 @ 08:54am

Oh yes, must always be polite in politics. For instance, Katrina Vanden Huevel used the euphemism "shows some spine" which is a much more reasonable phrqsing than "smiles and lies to your face."

Posted by Mistral at 09/10/2009 @ 09:00am
You are not thinking. Let's say you are an undocumented worker with a family of 4. You want to purchase a policy from the public option. NO proof of citizenship is required. You want affordability credits. Sec 246 of HR3200 says you can't have them.

Are you going to let this stop you? No, because you are smart.

Affordability credits get doled out based on tax returns. You can file a tax return without a SSN bu using an ITIN or a TIN. A TIN doesn't require proof of citizenship. Even a false or mismatched SSN on a 1040 doesn't cause you any trouble because the IRS simply puts this stuff in a suspense file and doesn't share info with ICE.Presto, you get your credits. The demos defeated citizenship requirements in an amendment attempt because they knew a back door would be discovered.

Posted by sntauri at 09/10/2009 @ 09:01am
Of course a TIN doesn't require proof of citizenship. When one is provided, there's a rebuttable presumption that they're not a citizen or they'd have a SSN instead.

But if in fact the public option is a revenue wash, then an undocumented worker who can get signed up will only increase the subscriber base which is a good thing, not a bad one.

If affordability credits are based on tax returns on a phony SSN with employer deductions being reported, not only does the paperwork go into a suspense file, so does the money withheld.

Its really quite amazing that undocumented workers can be screwed by everybody and then blamed for providing cheap labor and paying FICA they'll never collect.

Posted by PBCliberal at 09/10/2009 @ 09:12am
"Joe Wilson should be censured by Congress"

I THINK JOE IS AMERICAN PATRIOT THAT JUST SAID WHAT MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF AMERICANS WERE SCREAMING AT THIER TV....BARRY SOTERO IS A FUCKING LIAR ABOUT SOOOOOO MANY THINGS I CANT EVEN COUNT ANY MORE...BUT TODAY I WILL DONATE $1000 TO HIS CAMPAIGN WITH PRIDE...

BY THE WAY LIBZ YOUR OUTRAGE AT JOES OUTBURST WILL BE TEMPERED TODAY WHEN THE NEWS SHOWS THE MANY TIMES YOU DETESTABLE LIBZ DISREPECTED BUSH BY BOOING AND OTHER ANTICS IN THE SOTU SPEECHES ESPECIALLY IN A TIME OF WAR!!!!!

ANYWAY BARRYS LITTLE STUNT SPEECH WILL SOON BE A MEMORY WHEN HE LOOKS OUT HIS WINDOW THIS SATURDAY TO SEE THE HORDES OF TRUE PATRIOTIC AMERICANS IN THE STREETS OF DC CALLING THAT ASSHOLE A LIAR TO HIS FACE...

WHAT WILL YOU LITTLE PUSSY LIBZ CRY ABOUT THEN???HMMMM?????

THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF THE TRAITOROUS DEMONCRAT PARTY HAS ALREADY BEGUN...I FOR ONE CANT BE HAPPIER!!!

Posted by libzRfreaks2 at 09/10/2009 @ 09:14am
Posted by sntauri at 09/10/2009 @ 09:01am

Rep Wilson COULD rob banks, just as illegals COULD use the system to acquire care.

So, if Rep Wilson said the law prevents bank theft, I could call him a Liar!

Posted by crabwalk at 09/10/2009 @ 09:15am
Rep Wilson COULD rob banks, just as illegals COULD use the system to acquire care.

So, if Rep Wilson said the law prevents bank theft, I could call him a Liar!

Posted by crabwalk at 09/10/2009 @ 09:15am

On the other hand, if the law were also to forbid police from arresting bank robbers, and forbid the FBI to investigate, then the law against bank robbery would be somewhat irrelevant.

Posted by Mistral at 09/10/2009 @ 09:23am
AFTER LISTENING TO A FEW HISPANIC TALK RADIO STATIONS THIS MORNING(I ALSO SPEAK SPANISH) THEY WERE INSISTING THAT WHAT THE LIAR BARRY SOTERO SAID WAS JUST FOR THE AUDIENCE CONSUMPTION, THAT HE WILL IN FACT COVER THE ILLEGALS AND FOR THEM NOT TO WORRY OR GET UPSET!!!

IS THE SHIT GONNA HIT THE FAN WHEN THE LIAR IN CHIEF IS REALLY EXPOSED FOR WHAT HE IS...A FUCKING FRAUD!!!!

Posted by libzRfreaks2 at 09/10/2009 @ 09:38am
Joe Wilson for President!!

He had the guts to say what we in SC who voted for him, and not Obama, think.

Posted by SCEAGLESFAN at 09/10/2009 @ 09:42am
Illegals have been getting health care here for many years, since 1986 in fact, it's called EMTALA. Hospitals are specifically forbidden from inquiring as to their immigration status, or reporting it. Over 50% of all emergency room visits go uncompensated, which is a major source of the dramatically rising cost of health insurance, along with government mandates.

And of course the next planned step is to grant amnesty to these illegals, which of course means they would be covered under the plan if it passes.

Anybody else notice that the number of uninsured somehow magically dropped to only 30 million?

Posted by talon57 at 09/10/2009 @ 09:52am
Christopher Hayes's point is "Illegal immigrants are explicitly barred from the provisions of the legislation."

This is a pure and simple fact.

It is pointless to complain that illegal immigrants can get health care "illegally" - even if you happen to believe that every little thing illegal immigrants do is illegal, including working and paying taxes. The point is that the proposed health care reform does NOTHING to change the status quo in this regard, and even contains text that explicitly maintains the status quo as it is (as anyone who can read can verify for himself or herself, using Hayes's source). Representative Joe Wilson therefore has NOT caught the president in a lie, and his complaint about illegal immigration is simply off-topic and irrelevant.

As everybody should know, an illegal immigrant can already get free health care in extreme cases, namely, when he or she shows up near death in an emergency room. Every critically endangered person who calls 911 gets treatment - at the hospital's expense and ultimately at the expense of all rate payers.

Moreover, as everybody should know, this is hardly the most efficient way to pay for health care. Many people who show up in emergency rooms cannot be rescued from certain death without giving them numerous treatments that they should have received long ago - and would have received long ago, and much more cheaply, if we made preventive care available to everyone, INCLUDING illegal immigrants.

Now if Representative Wilson really wants hospitals to require patients threatened with imminent death to prove their citizenship before they get treatment, he can propose a bill that would require this. Thank goodness Wilson's cowardice, for the time being anyway, outweighs his xenophobia.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 09:54am
It may not pay for quote "illegals" however it will pay for those that are granted amnesity and citzenship by the liberal left so it technically will pay for illegals - think about it!! God Bless Joe!

Posted by mclonghorn at 09/10/2009 @ 09:54am
SCEAGLESFAN along with Joe Wilson and Mark Sanford are an embarassment to the state of South Carolina. Can Sarah Palin do something else stupid to get us off the front page?

Posted by sclaw at 09/10/2009 @ 09:56am
Young Christopher, of course Joe Wilson believes The One was lying.....just as every person who heard the speech believes.

Those who believe Dem politicians don't lie as their normal mode, are dead or locked up already!

Why do I say Dems and not `all', cause to sucker money out of the wealthy down to the middle class, takes a lot of lying, trojan horses, bait-and-switch, promising the moo, etc.

Posted by Happy at 09/10/2009 @ 09:57am
Rep Joe Wilson (while out of line in his outburst) is correct that President Obama LIED to Congress and the American public last night. I'll give him credit for lying as only a lawyer can lie, by twisting the truth. They are eligible to purchase insurance (thus they can't be turned down), but they cannot obtain low income credits. Furthermore, this does not change the current practice in states like California in which illegals receive MediCal coverage for all medical and dental services free of charge. And that is not solely "emergency room" medical care as some are suggesting.

<Congressional Research Service Report-R40773

Treatment of Noncitizens in H.R. 3200

August 25, 2009

H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens participating in the ExchangeŠwhether the noncitizens are legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently.

Thus, legal permanent residents, and noncitizens and unauthorized aliens who qualify as resident aliens (i.e., meet the substantial presence test), would be required under H.R. 3200 to have health insurance.

Furthermore, unauthorized aliens would be barred from receiving the premium credit.>

http://opencrs.com/document/R40773/

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 10:01am
Apparently many people don't realize it doesn't matter whether the legislation identifies coverage for illegal aliens or anyone else. No one can be denied services at medical facilities regardless of origin. You and I pay the bill for all those without coverage so what does legislation matter anyway. The American taxpayers will pay the bill either way--through insurance coverage we pay for or through welfare we pay for. Wake up, America. The taxpayers must draw the line in the sand or pretty soon no one will be paying the bills for anything; we won't have any more money.

Posted by kcallentine at 09/10/2009 @ 10:03am
" Many people who show up in emergency rooms cannot be rescued from certain death without giving them numerous treatments that they should have received long ago - and would have received long ago, and much more cheaply, if we made preventive care available to everyone, INCLUDING illegal immigrants"

i have been saying this for a long time. costs go down for everyone if, and only if, we all share the burden up front.

question: is this the first time someone has ever shouted at the president in this manner?

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 10:03am
"It may not pay for quote "illegals" however it will pay for those that are granted amnesity and citzenship by the liberal left so it technically will pay for illegals - think about it!! God Bless Joe!"

this sort of comment pretty much sums up why the GOP has absolutley no clue what they're talking about.

they're just angry, ignorant, partisans.

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 10:05am
btw, the last 10 minutes of obama's speech were pretty incredible.....i thought so anyway.

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 10:05am
There is some quality crazy posting going on here today.

And look talon57 is going to need a sled his slope is so slippery; "And of course the next planned step is to grant amnesty to these illegals"

"Joe Wilson for President!! " bwahahahaha, maybe he can be Sarah's runninng mate.

Posted by Misheley at 09/10/2009 @ 10:07am
Why is Joe Wilson so upset? Simple. Follow the money.

Just look at how many of his 2010 contributors are health care related. His #1 contributor is the American Hospital Association, but among the top 20 are the American Speech Language Hearing Association, Blue Cross/Blue Shield(!), Carecore (a specialty benefit MANAGEMENT company, American Society of Anesthesiologists, and AstraZeneca PLC (pharmaceutical).

https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians

Posted by ChattyKathy at 09/10/2009 @ 10:09am
Interesting, that for all the fans of Joe Wilson and what he did last night....

Wilson HIMSELF said-

"While I disagree with the president's statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the president for this lack of civility."

Wilson also called the White House to apologize and spoke with Obama's Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, who accepted the apology on the president's behalf, according to a senior administration official.

www.cnn.com

Posted by Mask at 09/10/2009 @ 10:09am
When I am able to access Wilson's web site, I will gladly make a generous donation. He deserves to be in the government. Finally someone is standing up and saying,"But the emperor isn't wearing any clothes!"

Posted by Pollyanne at 09/10/2009 @ 10:10am
Every white person in America should reflect upon where his or her family comes from. Then, he or she should look up the words "xenophobia" and "xenophobe" and reflect upon what they mean.

Xenophobia, which several posters on this thread flaunt like a badge of honor, is a shameful prejudice no better than racism, and it obviously is often motivated by racism of the crudest kind.

Whether they realize is or not, white xenophobes, in particular, do everything they can to make life miserable for people who are the moral equivalent of their own great-grandparents. This hatred is disgusting, and it goes without saying that it is viciously opposed to all that is right and good about America.

All white xenophobes should be immediately deported to Europe, preferably to a place with plenty of ethnic strife, like Serbia. They'd feel right at home there.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 10:12am
if only the other joe wilson had yelled "you lie!" when back in early 2003 when bush uttered the now infamous phrase : "saddam has sought yellowcake uranium from niger"

it still would have broken the rules of courtesy and respect for the president and the congress, but perhaps it would have been warranted (as our invasion of iraq was totally illegal, immoral, and not to mention, completely plunged us into debt).

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 10:14am
amazing the amount of posters here who actually support the congressman from south carolina.

really, i'm shocked.

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 10:15am
"Antisocialist," Representative Wilson had no cause to allege that anything about health care reform in any way makes any illegal immigrant's life in the United States less miserable. This is because NOTHING about the proposed legislation does this. Wilson's assumption that it DOES is a lie of exactly the kind that you dishonestly attribute to President Obama: a twisting of the truth.

Wilson's outburst was a juvenile attempt to do what so many teabaggers are fond of doing, namely changing the subject. In this case, as in many other cases, the change in subject was away from the truth and toward a xenophobic distortion of it.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 10:19am
I agree with you, "darladoon," that there's a lot of interruption that I'd accept if only it were done in the name of the truth, rather than for the benefit of some reality-challenged teabagger talking point.

I am also dismayed at the amount of xenophobia and plain old-fashioned racism in the USA today. If we really want to become the next Yugoslavia, we're off to a great start.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 10:23am
All white xenophobes should be immediately deported to Europe

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 10:12am

Does that mean it's OK for non-white US citizens to object to having their money subsidize healthcare for illegal aliens?

Of course as a public health issue everybody should get medical treatment and not be thrown out of hospitals, but shouldn't there be some means to reimburse US citizens (white or non-white) for the money they shell out? Maybe bill the country the illegal aliens come from? Maybe bill the illegal aliens directly?

Posted by Mistral at 09/10/2009 @ 10:23am
This is because NOTHING about the proposed legislation does this. Wilson's assumption that it DOES is a lie of exactly the kind that you dishonestly attribute to President Obama: a twisting of the truth.

Wilson's outburst was a juvenile attempt to do what so many teabaggers are fond of doing, namely changing the subject. In this case, as in many other cases, the change in subject was away from the truth and toward a xenophobic distortion of it.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 10:19am

Nonsense. You are saying that the Nonpartisan Congressional Research Service Report is also lying?

I provided the link to it. Show me where it contradicts it's statements that HR 3200 REQUIRES illegals to participate.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 10:31am
Interesting, that for all the fans of Joe Wilson and what he did last night....

Wilson HIMSELF said-

"While I disagree with the president's statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the president for this lack of civility."

Wilson also called the White House to apologize and spoke with Obama's Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, who accepted the apology on the president's behalf, according to a senior administration official.

www.cnn.com

Posted by Mask at 09/10/2009 @ 10:09am | ignore this person | warn this person

--wasn't long ago Barack Obama called the Cambridge, MA police "stupid" and later recanted and then had a "beer summit" trying to smooth things over...

Posted by urmygyro at 09/10/2009 @ 10:34am
mistral,

please rephrase your question...

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 10:35am
Every white person in America should reflect upon where his or her family comes from. Then, he or she should look up the words "xenophobia" and "xenophobe" and reflect upon what they mean.

Xenophobia, which several posters on this thread flaunt like a badge of honor, is a shameful prejudice no better than racism, and it obviously is often motivated by racism of the crudest kind.

Whether they realize is or not, white xenophobes, in particular, do everything they can to make life miserable for people who are the moral equivalent of their own great-grandparents. This hatred is disgusting, and it goes without saying that it is viciously opposed to all that is right and good about America.

All white xenophobes should be immediately deported to Europe, preferably to a place with plenty of ethnic strife, like Serbia. They'd feel right at home there.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 10:12am | ignore this person | warn this person

--what do you call it when the president calls the cambridge, mass police "stupid" without knowing the facts of a particular arrest? ... in other words, wasn't he, by your definition, being "xenophobic" in rushing to back up a black citzen against a white officer (esp. w/out knowing the facts)?

Posted by urmygyro at 09/10/2009 @ 10:39am
if only the other joe wilson had yelled "you lie!" when back in early 2003 when bush uttered the now infamous phrase : "saddam has sought yellowcake uranium from niger"

it still would have broken the rules of courtesy and respect for the president and the congress, but perhaps it would have been warranted (as our invasion of iraq was totally illegal, immoral, and not to mention, completely plunged us into debt).

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 10:14am | ignore this person | warn this person

--so why do you have a problem with joe wilson from s.c. doing what he did?

Posted by urmygyro at 09/10/2009 @ 10:40am
mistral,

please rephrase your question...

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 10:35am

JakobFabian objects to "white xenophobes." So take them out of the situation. What about non-whites? What about non-xenophobes? What can be done for them when the healthcare establishment spends their money on illegal aliens? Should the illegal aliens be required to pay? Should their home countries be required to pay? Should the US government pay and just write it off as foreign aid? Do you think the illegal aliens should be denied care and thrown out on the street?

Posted by Mistral at 09/10/2009 @ 10:43am
Man-up Chris! We can all handle a little lefty bashing. Sometimes it is good for us.

Posted by tarryh at 09/10/2009 @ 10:43am
here is what anti's link says:

"Thus, legal permanent residents, and noncitizens and unauthorized aliens who qualify as resident aliens (i.e., meet the substantial presence test), would be required under H.R. 3200 to have health insurance."

key words: "who qualify as resident aliens (i.e. who meet the substantial presence test)"

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 10:43am
"--what do you call it when the president calls the cambridge, mass police "stupid" without knowing the facts of a particular arrest? ... in other words, wasn't he, by your definition, being "xenophobic" in rushing to back up a black citzen against a white officer (esp. w/out knowing the facts)?"

BULLSEYE!!!!THANK YOU!!!!

Posted by libzRfreaks2 at 09/10/2009 @ 10:43am
Considering, "Mistral," that most countries from which illegal immigrants come are poorer than the United States, your proposal that these countries help to pay for their health care is impractical at the outset.

People move from poor countries to rich ones. It's what they do. It's what my great-grandparents did, and in all likelihood, it's what your great-grandparents did, too.

We can try to stop immigration with walls and guns, but if we do, we'll cause people who are the moral equivalent of our own great-grandparents to die in the desert. That's not acceptable to me, and I'd like to think that it's not acceptable to you, either.

The only real solution to the problem of migration - and I admit that it is a problem, and a global one - is to fight poverty worldwide. To this end, there are a lot of trade policies that we could revisit, NAFTA foremost among them, and the WTO certainly needs to be reformed to consider the well-being of workers and the health of the environment. Only these changes promise to bring about a stabilization of global human migration and a reduction of its costs.

Of course, until we make these changes, which I imagine will not be cheap (certainly not compared with merely covering the costs of illegal immigrants' health care), people will continue to migrate from place to place, for the simple reason that people have always tried to improve their livelihood by moving and always will, regardless of the risks involved.

In the meantime, my suggestion to you is that you learn to deal with it, that is, to accept human beings as human beings, regardless of where they happen to have been born, and to treat them as such.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 10:44am
--wasn't long ago Barack Obama called the Cambridge, MA police "stupid" and later recanted and then had a "beer summit" trying to smooth things over..."----Posted by urmygyro at 09/10/2009 @ 10:34am

Well, to be accurate (not something a right-winger necessarily wants to be)...Obama said he "acted stupidly", he didn't "call him stupid".

But my point remains the overt (as well as covert) supporters of Joe Wilson...

have been left in the dust by Wilson himself who realized how this would and IS back-firing on himself (note Rob Miller's spike up) and on the Republican Party.

Posted by Mask at 09/10/2009 @ 10:46am
"In the meantime, my suggestion to you is that you learn to deal with it, that is, to accept human beings as human beings, regardless of where they happen to have been born, and to treat them as such."

ah, if only our conservative colleagues had hearts (or minds, for that matter).

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 10:47am
NO YOU LIB NITWIT IT WILL BACKFIRE ON THE RACIST IN CHIEF...BANK ON IT!!!!

Posted by libzRfreaks2 at 09/10/2009 @ 10:48am
Like a lot of congressmen Joe Wilson does not actually read bills. Many were princes or princesses in college. They had more important things to do like frat parties or cheerleading than actually reading things. They depended on Cliff Notes. So it is perfectly natural for Mr. Wilson to rely on Rush or Beckers for legal commentary. I suspect over the next year he will come to regret his outburst. He already has a new nickname: GOOBER.

Posted by tarryh at 09/10/2009 @ 10:52am
...have been left in the dust by Wilson himself who realized how this would and IS back-firing on himself (note Rob Miller's spike up) and on the Republican Party.

Posted by Mask at 09/10/2009 @ 10:46am

Another in-the-dust conclusion!

Wilson apologized almost immediately for `acting impulsively'.......and it's the ?Right-wing? media that's helping to hype his status...with generous help from the Left (like you?) who maybe part of the paid-for-by-Right-pretending-to-be-Left.

We will make damn sure JW will raise multiples of contributions to whatever Miller will get!

Posted by Happy at 09/10/2009 @ 10:54am
In the meantime, my suggestion to you is that you learn to deal with it, that is, to accept human beings as human beings, regardless of where they happen to have been born, and to treat them as such.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 10:44am

Actually, one of my suggestions above was to provide healthcare for illegal aliens (which President Obama, in his speech, said will NOT be done) and label it foreign aid. Do you agree with me, or with President Obama?

Posted by Mistral at 09/10/2009 @ 10:56am
'JakobFabian objects to "white xenophobes." So take them out of the situation. What about non-whites? What about non-xenophobes?'

I regard non-white xenophobes as just as stupid and impractical as the white ones, "Mistral," if that's what you're wondering. Their xenophobia is also equally wrong-headed.

I have only two reasons for addressing specifically WHITE xenophobes in my previous posting.

(1) One is that most xenophobes in the United States are in fact white.

(2) The other is that my argument about illegal immigrants being the "moral equivalent of your great-grandparents" applies most accurately to European-Americans. I suppose it works to some degree for Asian-Americans as well. However, it doesn't work for African-Americans whose ancestors came to this country as slaves. It absolutely doesn't apply to anyone belonging to one of America's First Nations, that is, to people commonly called American Indians.

It could even be argued that people belonging to the First Nations (who have really suffered enough already) should be exempt from responsibility to care for any invaders of their native land, including the most recent ones. However, rather than exempt them from this responsibility (which would require conferring some kind of special status upon them), I would prefer to give First Nations some restorative justice - in the form of reparations - which would make them full and equal partners in the US economy, and would enable them to bear the same responsibilities, including attending to the problems of immigration.

It should be reminded that immigration is not only a negative thing. For example, we've been able to put off Social Security reform as long as we have only because most immigrants are young and help us to pay for it.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 10:58am
'Actually, one of my suggestions above was to provide healthcare for illegal aliens (which President Obama, in his speech, said will NOT be done) and label it foreign aid. Do you agree with me, or with President Obama?'

This is a fine suggestion, "Mistral" - assuming that you're serious this time, and not making some kind of joke, as you have confessed to doing earlier.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 11:01am
Mask: "Well, to be accurate (not something a right-winger necessarily wants to be)...Obama said he "acted stupidly", he didn't "call him stupid"

--to be accurate (not someting Mask necessarily wants to be)...I'm not a "right-winger" I'm a liberal who calls out this faux-progressive President. "Stupidly"/"Stupid" - yeah, you really got me there! an "ly" saves the president from being "stupid" himself and merely acted "stupidly" in talking about something of which he didn't know the facts...

Mask: "But my point remains the overt (as well as covert) supporters of Joe Wilson..."

--if you support obama's plan you're a covert supporter of big insurance companies, big pharma, etc...something you conveniently ignore...

Mask: "have been left in the dust by Wilson himself who realized how this would and IS back-firing on himself (note Rob Miller's spike up) and on the Republican Party."

--yes, the world waits breathlessly to se the outcome of a congressional district in south carolina in the next election...heheh

Posted by urmygyro at 09/10/2009 @ 11:04am
As is demonstrated by the comments posted here the real issue isn't health care, its just poor hatred off the Obama and Liberals. Joe Wilson embarrassed himself, the GOP and South Carolina last night. It's kind of scary that a rube like this is a lawmaker and he doesn't even know that the bill specifically says that illegals in the United States are not eligible for health care, page 132, section 242. A separate law that was passed in 1986(?) requires that emergency rooms cannot turn away anyone, insured or not, legal or illegal.

I'm at the point where I really think it time to ignore an insignificant group such as the GOP. There are no true GOP conservatives that even resemble what was once a proud party,Barry Goldwater should be your role model, not Rush, Palin, Beck, O'Reilly or Hannity. Your party has allowed itself to be lead by a group of for profit shock jocks and entertainers. I've always understood why the wealthy were Republicans, but too many of the rest of the GOP is made of a mix of white,bigoted ,mentally challenged, bitter or religious zealots. And who is going to carry the torch to keep the GOP viable there is no youth in your party. Must really bug you guys that a Black Liberal is sleeping in the same bedroom that Ronnie sleep in. Get used to it.

Posted by Conspirator at 09/10/2009 @ 11:04am
"Thus, legal permanent residents, and noncitizens and unauthorized aliens who qualify as resident aliens (i.e., meet the substantial presence test), would be required under H.R. 3200 to have health insurance."

key words: "who qualify as resident aliens (i.e. who meet the substantial presence test)"

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 10:43am

You don't even read what you write. US law legally defines illegal aliens as meeting the definition of Resident Alien because of the Substantial Presence Test. I know this for a fact because I do tax returns for many of them and have helped many get their ITIN numbers from the govt.

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc851.html

BTW, CNN just did a fact check and verified that illegals are covered under HR 3200.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 11:05am
This is a fine suggestion, "Mistral" - assuming that you're serious this time, and not making some kind of joke, as you have confessed to doing earlier.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 11:01am

So I can assume you agree that President Obama was lying (or that he wants to deny healthcare to illegal aliens)?

Posted by Mistral at 09/10/2009 @ 11:08am
'--what do you call it when the president calls the cambridge, mass police "stupid" without knowing the facts of a particular arrest? ... in other words, wasn't he, by your definition, being "xenophobic" in rushing to back up a black citzen against a white officer (esp. w/out knowing the facts)?'

I seem to recall that the police officer in question, a very decent man, has accepted the apology that President Obama offered. He is no longer angry about this incident. Why are you?

Moreover, what you have written, "urmygyro," suggests that you may not know what "xenophobic" means. You seem to be confusing it with racism. Please look up this word and think again about the relevance of your posting in this thread.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 11:10am
Apparently many people don't realize it doesn't matter whether the legislation identifies coverage for illegal aliens or anyone else. No one can be denied services at medical facilities regardless of origin. You and I pay the bill for all those without coverage so what does legislation matter anyway.

good point wrong conclusion. bringing those without insurance, including undocumented workers, into the health insurance system will save money, since those folks will not rely on the emergency room for what a family doctor should provide.

they then can avail themselves of early screening, which saves money as they are less likely to get very sick. as ALL doctors will tell you, early diagnosis is huge help in healing the sick, and prevents them from getting sicker.

Posted by emile duBois at 09/10/2009 @ 11:12am
Some individuals, including nonresident aliens, would be exempt from the individual mandate. "Nonresident alien" is a term under tax but not immigration law.

http://opencrs.com/document/R40773/

Posted by Misheley at 09/10/2009 @ 11:12am
Posted by Conspirator at 09/10/2009 @ 11:04am | ignore this person | warn this person

very good. the repugs are playing to get a Fox show, like Huckabee. Fox is in actuality a wax museum, like Madame Tussaud's

Posted by emile duBois at 09/10/2009 @ 11:15am
'So I can assume you agree that President Obama was lying (or that he wants to deny healthcare to illegal aliens)?'

No, "Mistral," and I have no cause to do so. Neither do you.

President Obama mentioned illegal immigrants only in reference to actually existing draft legislation. He did not indicate whether he personally "wanted" to exclude or include immigrants of any kind from health care reform. Obama's purpose in mentioning this issue at all was obviously to counter the false claim that radical nativists have been harping upon, namely that the proposed health care legislation in some way provides for improved treatment of illegal immigrants. It does not, and in fact the proposed legislation explicitly denies any such provision.

Check out Hayes's source if you have any doubts.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 11:20am
if only the other joe wilson had yelled "you lie!" when back in early 2003 when bush uttered the now infamous phrase : "saddam has sought yellowcake uranium from niger"

this is exactly what he did. he just used the op ed page of the New York Times to do so.

THAT got under the skin of the mis-administration, and they retaliated in stalinist fashion by destroying his wife's livelyhood, which consisted of service to her country.

Posted by emile duBois at 09/10/2009 @ 11:21am
Because Joe Wilson accused the President of lying, some people here insist the President is telling the truth. So illegal aliens will not be covered. So they will not receive necessary care (or providers will shift the cost to legal residents).

So we'd be better off if the President is lying?

Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/10/2009 @ 11:21am
'--what do you call it when the president calls the cambridge, mass police "stupid" without knowing the facts of a particular arrest? ... in other words, wasn't he, by your definition, being "xenophobic" in rushing to back up a black citzen against a white officer (esp. w/out knowing the facts)?'

I seem to recall that the police officer in question, a very decent man, has accepted the apology that President Obama offered. He is no longer angry about this incident. Why are you?

Moreover, what you have written, "urmygyro," suggests that you may not know what "xenophobic" means. You seem to be confusing it with racism. Please look up this word and think again about the relevance of your posting in this thread.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 11:10am | ignore this person | warn this person

--I'm not angry about it at all. I'm using that as an example to diffuse Mask's attempts to make Wilson's (unwise and politically unsavvy) "you lied" into something bigger than what it...wilson apologized just like obama did...move on...

--re: xenophobia; you yourself said xenophobia can be based on "race"; and you're the one who's decrying "xenophobia" when all the participants are from the same country (if you want to argue "culture" then my comparison stands; obama standing up for "black culture" by saying a white officer acted "stupidly" in arresting a black citizen)...of course, I think your xenophobia comment was lame (and inaccurate)...we're all Americans here...

Posted by urmygyro at 09/10/2009 @ 11:24am
Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 11:20am

You remain incorrect that they are not covered. The only restriction is that they cannot receive low income premium credits.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 11:24am
"Antisocialist," you need to read Christopher Hayes's source. This text very explicitly exempts the proposed health care reform from the obligations that you refer to in the text that you quote.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 11:35am
Quite a lot of illegal immigrants are Americans too, "urmygyro." Unless you recognize this, and above all that they are human beings, you are a xenophobe.

You know what's really lame? Pretending that the premise "We're all Americans here" precludes the possibility that any one of us is a xenophobe. The United States has some world-class xenophobes, and quite a few of them have announced their presence on this thread.

As for me, I prefer to call a spade a spade and a xenophobe a xenophobe, thank you very much.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 11:40am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Npdplakat2008.jpg

Posted by emile duBois at 09/10/2009 @ 11:46am
the false claim that radical nativists have been harping upon, namely that the proposed health care legislation in some way provides for improved treatment of illegal immigrants. It does not

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 11:20am

So you are saying that the current system provides some treatment for illegal immigrants, but the President's plan will not improve it.

So either the illegal immigrants are not now getting necessary treatment, and the plan will not give it to them, or they are getting necessary treatment, but the costs are being pushed onto US citizens in other ways. Which is it?

Posted by Mistral at 09/10/2009 @ 11:47am
"Antisocialist," you need to read Christopher Hayes's source. This text very explicitly exempts the proposed health care reform from the obligations that you refer to in the text that you quote.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 11:35am

Actually, I have read it and they are guilty of not addressing the facts.

All they addressed was the issue of affordability credits.

They ignored that the bill mandates that all residents including illegals either purchase insurance or are participating in another plan such as Medicaid.

They also gave a very weak response to the subject of verification.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 11:47am
Quite a lot of illegal immigrants are Americans too, "urmygyro." Unless you recognize this, and above all that they are human beings, you are a xenophobe.

You know what's really lame? Pretending that the premise "We're all Americans here" precludes the possibility that any one of us is a xenophobe. The United States has some world-class xenophobes, and quite a few of them have announced their presence on this thread.

As for me, I prefer to call a spade a spade and a xenophobe a xenophobe, thank you very much.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 11:40am

For a supposed "tolerant" socialist, you sure are a bigot.

Why don't you tell us who the "quite a few of them have announced their presence on this thread" xenophobes are Jakob?

Why don't you provide an example of someone on this thread who is afraid of foreigners?

Leftists like yourself love to throw words like xenophobe and homophobe around rather than deal with the substance of issues. It makes you feel all nice and superior inside, even it's a baldface lie.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 11:56am
As for me, I prefer to call a spade a spade and a xenophobe a xenophobe, thank you very much.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 11:40am | ignore this person | warn this person

--and an idiot an idiot (that's you...twice)

Posted by urmygyro at 09/10/2009 @ 11:57am
"BTW, CNN just did a fact check and verified that illegals are covered under HR 3200."

wrong! because they are not technically "illegals", as even your own (right wing) link proves.

give it up, anti!

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 12:07pm
"Why don't you provide an example of someone on this thread who is afraid of foreigners?"

antisocialist, you are not an intellectual, and probably will never understand how the unconscious works.

one does not have to say racist or xenophobic things in order to be either racist or xenophobic.

conservatives like joe wilson, who are so concerned that healthcare legislation leaves out latinos, are unconsciously xenophobic *because* they would never apply the same standards to white europeans, australians, canadians, etc, who come here all the time, overstay their visas, receive emergeny treatments, don't pay taxes, etc.

people like wilson aren't really concerned abou relatively wealthy foreign whites who come here. he is primarily concerned about those coming from south of the border. you know it. i know it. we all know it.

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 12:15pm
Posted by urmygyro at 09/10/2009 @ 11:04am

Sure, urmy...a "liberal" who seems to parrot right-wing talking points on "losing freedom" on other threads.

Posted by Mask at 09/10/2009 @ 12:17pm
i remember when those backing Wilson were OUTRAGED that anybody would claim the president lied. They talked, and wrote, endlessly about "respect for the office of the President of the United States."

How 'bout that respect now?

Why are you all such damn hypocrites!

Like this guy...

"Leftists like yourself love to throw words like xenophobe and homophobe around rather than deal with the substance of issues. It makes you feel all nice and superior inside, even it's a baldface lie.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 11:56am"

Anybody read the terms "Marxist, Communist, Totalitarian..." lately?

Hypocrites.

Posted by crabwalk at 09/10/2009 @ 12:20pm
Posted by Conspirator at 09/10/2009 @ 11:04am

Actually, you missed a key point..

it was REAGAN who SIGNED that 1986 "amnesty for illegals" bill.

Not just Goldwater, but even The Gipper himself (if no name was mentioned) would be called a "RINO" by today's GOP base.

Posted by Mask at 09/10/2009 @ 12:20pm
antisocialist doesn't see a tangible thread between the ultra-right wing militia movements, sheriff joe arpaio in phoenix, the minutemen, et al........all the way to the top of the political and media hierarchy, who dangle red meat in front of them in the form of these "heroic" outbursts demonstrated by people like joe wilson and the birther movement?

if not, then he is living in pure denial.

racism is alive and well in america, and even in your comments antisocialist. you may claim the opposite, but when you look at the "substance" (as you put it) of your comments, there is definitely an underpinning of fear, anxiety, uncertainty, and perhaps even unconscious hatred of the Other (non-christian, brown, black, foreigners).

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 12:21pm
Posted by urmygyro at 09/10/2009 @ 11:04am

Sure, urmy...a "liberal" who seems to parrot right-wing talking points on "losing freedom" on other threads.

Posted by Mask at 09/10/2009 @ 12:17pm | ignore this person |

--i want universal health care...where did I talk about "losing freedom" (I'm sure this won't take you long since you copy-and-save everything I write).

--also, I find it interesting that you call me a right-winger over and over yet you say nothing about frosty zoom...who clearly thinks obama is selling out the people to huge insurance companies; big pharma, etc...he a "right-winger" too?...or is he just expressing "dissent" about a faux-progressive president?

Posted by urmygyro at 09/10/2009 @ 12:21pm
Posted by emile duBois at 09/10/2009 @ 11:21am

Thank you!

and, what was the response from our resident cons to the former Bush supporting, wmd tracking duo?

Compared to today?

Is it because Rep Wilson attacked a non-citzen, Muslim, Marxist Traitor that wants death panels and no guns?

Posted by crabwalk at 09/10/2009 @ 12:25pm
I suggest some of the limousine conservatives take some time out of their busy days and go to a gun show.

Then get back to us about xenophobia and fear. I think you will be totally blown away by the extremism you will find at one of these events. Militia and hate groups are already growing again. They are armed with ignorance, propaganda and generous helpings of right-wing talk radio vitriol.

Posted by crabwalk at 09/10/2009 @ 12:29pm
Droopy- Thanks for your support of me with the right wing media giving attention to LIBZ R FREAKS brother who shouted at the President. The simple point behind this is advertising(profit) dollars. It is in the best interest of all the network and cable channels to cover it wall to wall.Santi- when can we all get past "affordability credits? I have a worry that the next thing I will see is a provision for transferring costs between United Health and Humana. I am waiting for 3 pages at the end of the legislation which spells out the "corporate" option.

Posted by whatizz at 09/10/2009 @ 12:30pm
"Then get back to us about xenophobia and fear. I think you will be totally blown away by the extremism you will find at one of these events. Militia and hate groups are already growing again"

exactly, and that shit goes all the way to the TOP of the political/media hierarchy, and ends up in outbursts like mr. wilson's, comes back down again in comments from people like antisocialist.

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 12:36pm
"BTW, CNN just did a fact check and verified that illegals are covered under HR 3200."

wrong! because they are not technically "illegals", as even your own (right wing) link proves.

give it up, anti!

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 12:07pm

Why would I give up when I've proven that I'm right and that evidently you cannot read. Sorry Darla, but the truth is the truth.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 12:36pm
Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 12:15pm

My response to Jakobian was not about Wilson. He charged that there were bloggers here on this thread who are xenophobes and I asked him to substantiate his charge.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 12:39pm
"hy would I give up when I've proven that I'm right and that evidently you cannot read. Sorry Darla, but the truth is the truth."

antisocialist, you cannot even read YOUR OWN link.

there are two different categories:

1. illegal aliens

2. nonresident aliens

obama said that 1. would not be covered.

he never said anything about 2.

the "substantial presence test" moves an individual from 1 to 2, thus making them no longer "illegal".

ergo, i win, you lose. now let's move on.

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 12:41pm
"Why don't you provide an example of someone on this thread who is afraid of foreigners?"

that's easy. Maasch.

Posted by emile duBois at 09/10/2009 @ 12:47pm
racism is alive and well in america, and even in your comments antisocialist. you may claim the opposite, but when you look at the "substance" (as you put it) of your comments, there is definitely an underpinning of fear, anxiety, uncertainty, and perhaps even unconscious hatred of the Other (non-christian, brown, black, foreigners).

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 12:21pm

exactly, and that shit goes all the way to the TOP of the political/media hierarchy, and ends up in outbursts like mr. wilson's, comes back down again in comments from people like antisocialist.

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 12:36pm

Now you are getting to the heights of idiocy.

It is well known by all the regular bloggers that not only am I married to a Black Latina from El Salvador, the congregations I have pastored have all been primarily Latin Americans. And a good number of the people were illegal immigrants.

This shows you to be joining in on slurs rather than the substance.

I keep trying to stay on the substance of the issue and that I have documented that Obama lied about the coverage. He is only correct that they are ineligible for affordability premium credits.

But for some reason, some on the left prefer to engage in their own bigotry rather than stay on issue.

Not one person yet has answered my question; Is the Congressional Research Service Report being wrong when it says on page 7

<Under H.R. 3200, all legal permanent residents (LPRs),23 nonimmigrants, and unauthorized aliens who meet the substantial presence test (defined above) would be required to obtain health insurance.>

http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/R40773_20090825.pdf

Unauthorized is just a politically correct word for illegal.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 12:48pm
Maasch=yomamma

Posted by emile duBois at 09/10/2009 @ 1:00pm
Here's what Christopher Hayes's source (opencongress.org) says about HR 3200:

"Pg 50 Section 152 in HC bill – HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.

(a) In General- Except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations consistent with this Act, all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

If your source, "antisocialist," contradicts any of this, then your source is WRONG, because the above text is excerpted FROM THE BILL ITSELF.

As numerous commentators, including myself, have taken pains to remind you and other thickheaded ideologues, illegal immigrants ALREADY RECEIVE health care (that's what "HC" means in the quoted text) in emergency circumstances. They are of course required by law to pay for the treatment they receive, unless of course they can't (as is frequently the case), so that you and I must chip in ourselves. That is how things are NOW.

HR 3200 changes NOTHING about this, and Rep. Wilson's insinuation that it does is a LIE.

The "requirement to obtain health insurance" that you mention therefore cannot get around the fact that HR 3200 provides NO MONEY for illegal immigrants to PAY for health insurance. Therefore it changes NOTHING about the status quo, as I have said before.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 1:06pm
Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 12:48pm

Just going by what you post Anti, doesn't "required to obtain health insurance" simply imply that they are part of the mandate to have insurance?

Now, does making them part of the mandate mean that they are covered by Health Care Reform if they can't afford it? Something would have to give here because I can't see how one can be accomplished without the other.

Perhaps I am seeing this all wrong and someone can enlighten me here.

Posted by !immutable at 09/10/2009 @ 1:08pm
'Then get back to us about xenophobia and fear. I think you will be totally blown away by the extremism you will find...' -- Crabwalk

'There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false...' -- President Obama

Does this mean the President is a wenophobe because he wants to not insure illegal immigrants?

Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/10/2009 @ 1:14pm
The "requirement to obtain health insurance" that you mention therefore cannot get around the fact that HR 3200 provides NO MONEY for illegal immigrants to PAY for health insurance. Therefore it changes NOTHING about the status quo, as I have said before.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 1:06pm

you have stated nothing that I haven't stated myself. I cannot understand why you keep arguing the points we agree on.

I agree in "principle that it bans them receiving affordability credits to purchase insurance. However, I want to take up the rest of this answer in response to another poster (!immutable) which hits the real heart of this question.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 1:31pm
Come on, "HonestLiberal," you're smarter than that. President Obama did not express in his speech any opinion about whether illegal immigrants SHOULD be covered. He merely pointed out that the proposed legislation makes no such provision.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 1:32pm
Not wenophobe, xenophobe.

Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/10/2009 @ 1:32pm
'He merely pointed out that the proposed legislation makes no such provision.' -- JakobFabian

But that means the President WANTS to exclude coverage for illegal aliens, or he wants to include coverage for them but can't get it in the bill.

Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/10/2009 @ 1:36pm
Just going by what you post Anti, doesn't "required to obtain health insurance" simply imply that they are part of the mandate to have insurance?

Now, does making them part of the mandate mean that they are covered by Health Care Reform if they can't afford it? Something would have to give here because I can't see how one can be accomplished without the other.

Perhaps I am seeing this all wrong and someone can enlighten me here.

Posted by !immutable at 09/10/2009 @ 1:08pm

Sir, I bow in honor of your objectivity and clear thinking!

You have just hit at the contradiction and what I believe to be the blatant lying by Obama and the Democratic Congress.

How can you mandate in this bill that "unauthorized aliens" (illegal immigrants) are required to obtain health insurance and then deny them the funds that you provide others if they do not have the financial means?

You are the only liberal that I have seen to actually think through and recognize this point.

I can only surmise that Obama and the Democrats are not stupid and that they understand that when this does surface they will say "now we are forced to provide the funding to illegals in order to comply with the law".

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 1:36pm
"Unauthorized is just a politically correct word for illegal."----Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 12:48pm

Save that for the next wiretaps or torture thread.

Posted by Mask at 09/10/2009 @ 1:41pm
there are two different categories:

1. illegal aliens

2. nonresident aliens

obama said that 1. would not be covered.

he never said anything about 2.

the "substantial presence test" moves an individual from 1 to 2, thus making them no longer "illegal".

ergo, i win, you lose. now let's move on.

Posted by darladoon at 09/10/2009 @ 12:41pm

Darla, please tell me you are just joking. As I've often said, I prepare taxes for a living and many of my clients are illegal aliens.

You have it completely backward. I even capitalized UNLESS for you to help you understand.

An alien person is a nonresident unless they either have a green card or they meet the substantial presence test. They are not a nonresident alien because they meet it. I even cited the IRS publication for you.

Somebody else please jump in and help Darla with this. I do know she means well.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 1:44pm
Come on, "HonestLiberal," you're smarter than that. President Obama did not express in his speech any opinion about whether illegal immigrants SHOULD be covered. He merely pointed out that the proposed legislation makes no such provision.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 1:32pm

Again, is the Congressional Research Service Report that was prepared for Congress lying when it says that Unauthorized Aliens must obtain coverage under HR 3200?

And if they are mandated, is it not illegal to mandate coverage that you will provide funds for one segment of society, but not another that is equally unable to obtained the mandated coverage?

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 1:47pm
Illegal immigrants will get affordability credits the same way they get the EITC (Earned Income Tax Credit). But wait, you can't get EITC unless you're here legally! It says so in the law. Right!

Posted by sntauri at 09/10/2009 @ 1:56pm
why they're suddenly so concerned about spending just shy of a trillion dollars to save peoples lives after writing blank checks to George W. Bush to kill people.

Posted by PBCliberal at 09/10/2009 @ 08:50am

Don't you know that when America kills people, it's for their own good? Salvation and all that? People like W would never send the country into war for profit. LOL

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/10/2009 @ 2:02pm
'But that means the President WANTS to exclude coverage for illegal aliens, or he wants to include coverage for them but can't get it in the bill.'

Uh, yes, "HonestLiberal," that would cover all our bases, wouldn't it? Either he wants to exclude illegal aliens, which would make him a xenophobe, or he wants to include them, which would make him a non-xenophobe. Of course, we don't know which he is, because he EXPRESSED NO OPINION ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR ITEM.

So you've proven that President Obama definitively either is or isn't a xenophobe. Thank you so much for clearing that up.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 2:03pm
Illegal immigrants will get affordability credits the same way they get the EITC (Earned Income Tax Credit). But wait, you can't get EITC unless you're here legally! It says so in the law. Right!

Posted by sntauri at 09/10/2009 @ 1:56pm

As a tax preparer, I can tell you that illegals do not receive the EITC. They are eligible however for the Child Tax Credit of up to $1000 per child.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 2:04pm
Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 1:36pm

Knowledge of a potential loophole is far from a blatant lie. Especially if what he said is factually correct.

It wouldn't be the first time this President, and every other President before him, did the same.

Posted by !immutable at 09/10/2009 @ 2:06pm
'Again, is the Congressional Research Service Report that was prepared for Congress lying when it says that Unauthorized Aliens must obtain coverage under HR 3200?'

It's either lying or it's mistaken. Look, I'll spell it out for you.

Illegal immigrants already get health care in life-or-death emergencies.

If they can pay for this out of their insurance, they are required by law to do so. If they can't, we do.

HR 3200 denies federal money to illegal immigrants who can't pay.

Either an illegal immigrant CAN or CANNOT pay for the health care that he or she receives. (As "HonestLiberal" has demonstrated for us in a neat little impromptu logic lesson, there is NO THIRD POSSIBILITY HERE.) In the former case, the illegal immigrant pays. In the latter case, HR 3200 denies payment, but we have to pay for the health care anyway, as we always have, because it is the policy of every hospital to save people's lives, regardless of who they are. And thank God they do...

You say you agree about all this. Okay, then stop calling our president a liar! Your claim that President Obama has somehow lied to us HAS NO SUBSTANCE.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 2:12pm
Finally someone is standing up and saying,"But the emperor isn't wearing any clothes!"

Posted by Pollyanne at 09/10/2009 @ 10:10am

We've been saying dickless cheney hasn't been wearing any clothes for years, you folks just don't want to stop the charade of W's 8 years reign of hallelujah and stupidity here we come.

As stated before, Obama hasn't been president long enough to be the emperor without clothes....perhaps he's missing his socks now. When 2012 rolls around, we'll know whether or not Obama was an emperor without clothes.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/10/2009 @ 2:13pm
Knowledge of a potential loophole is far from a blatant lie. Especially if what he said is factually correct.

It wouldn't be the first time this President, and every other President before him, did the same.

Posted by !immutable at 09/10/2009 @ 2:06pm

I agree and stated that last night he demonstrated that he is a well crafted Chicago politician.

He gave the finger to progressives and conservatives and lied to the middle.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 2:15pm
'Of course, we don't know which he is, because he EXPRESSED NO OPINION ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR ITEM.' -- JakobFabian

Now, now, no need to shout. I was just pointing out that either alternative looks bad for President Obama. If he wants to exclude coverage for them, then he's tossing sick people out on the street (yes, yes, illegal aliens, but human beings just the same). If he wants to include coverage for them, then he hasn't got the political pull to put that in the bill, and he doesn't have the courage to say in his speech that he wants to give them coverage.

Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/10/2009 @ 2:20pm
You say you agree about all this. Okay, then stop calling our president a liar! Your claim that President Obama has somehow lied to us HAS NO SUBSTANCE.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 2:12pm

Jakob, take a deep breath and try and think. You are obviously an intelligent person.

Let me go to the last point 1st . I'll respond to the 1st point in my subsequent post. As I noted to Darla, either Obama lied or he has no idea what is in HR 3200. If he doesn't know, that is almost as bad. Too make a strong statement when you don't know the facts is terribly wrong.

<There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false - the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.>

http://tinyurl.com/mwnjcb

Do the reforms apply to illegal immigrants? They clearly do as has already been demonstrated. They are mandated by HR 3200 to obtain health insurance under the proposed legislation.

Thus either Obama is lying or doesn't know what is in the bill. Either way, it is bad.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 2:22pm
Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/10/2009 @ 2:20pm

No, Honestliberal, JakobFabian wants to go with the third option, Obama "expressed no opinion." Of course he got into a lot of trouble with that in last year's campaign, what with all those votes of "present" in the Illinois state legislature.

Posted by Mistral at 09/10/2009 @ 2:25pm
'For a supposed "tolerant" socialist, you sure are a bigot.

Why don't you tell us who the "quite a few of them have announced their presence on this thread" xenophobes are Jakob?

Why don't you provide an example of someone on this thread who is afraid of foreigners?

Leftists like yourself love to throw words like xenophobe and homophobe around rather than deal with the substance of issues. It makes you feel all nice and superior inside, even it's a baldface lie.'

One of the xenophobes is you, "antisocialist." What other explanation could there be for the fact that you continue to obsess about the claim (refuted several times already here) that a federal law would help an illegal immigrant pay for health care - even if this would probably save us all money if it did?

Only strong fear or strong hatred can make a person so selflessly committed to keeping other people miserable, simply because they were born outside this country.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 2:29pm
Either an illegal immigrant CAN or CANNOT pay for the health care that he or she receives. (As "HonestLiberal" has demonstrated for us in a neat little impromptu logic lesson, there is NO THIRD POSSIBILITY HERE.) In the former case, the illegal immigrant pays. In the latter case, HR 3200 denies payment, but we have to pay for the health care anyway, as we always have, because it is the policy of every hospital to save people's lives, regardless of who they are. And thank God they do...

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 2:12pm

On your first point. How can you mandate someone to buy insurance and then say that as a class they are excluded from obtaining the same help that you give others who are also required to buy health insurance but lack the finances to do so?

I am not arguing safety nets on this question. We are arguing whether we are getting honest answers from the politicians. The average citizen is not invested into debate and research like those of us who regularly blog here. They rely upon events like last night and some 2 minute news bite to get their information. For them, I maintain that they have been badly misled by the president. And we haven't even touched the fact yet in debate here that his math on this being revenue neutral has already been debunked by even the liberal media.

Finally, you answer my argument in your own words. If they can't pay, we are still going to pay despite the language of the bill. That is our point. We all know that and Obama must know that. You draw the appropriate conclusion.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 2:29pm
'(a) In General- Except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations consistent with this Act, all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.'

Again, "antisocialist," that's from the text of HR3200 itself. If you think this doesn't exempt the feds from paying for illegal immigrants' health care, it's because you don't know what the word "EXCEPT" means.

Lots of legal texts have things that we call "EXCEPTIONS." (The word "exception" is a noun derived from "except.") You will find an exception located in one part of a legal text may modify a provision found elsewhere within the same legal text, as happens here.

I am satisfied, however, that you have ceased calling our president a liar. I'm not likely to get anything more out of you.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 2:35pm
Only strong fear or strong hatred can make a person so selflessly committed to keeping other people miserable, simply because they were born outside this country.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 2:29pm

Seems like there's a double standard here. Earlier you were giving President Obama the benefit of the doubt on that xenophobia thing (meaning he was too weak a politician to get coverage for illegal aliens in the bill, or -sigh- that he lied in his speech) but antisocialist is labeled "xenophobe" for pointing out that the system would have legal US residents subsidizing illegal aliens, if only because privacy laws would prevent the system from excluding them.

Posted by Mistral at 09/10/2009 @ 2:44pm
'No, Honestliberal, JakobFabian wants to go with the third option, Obama "expressed no opinion." Of course he got into a lot of trouble with that in last year's campaign, what with all those votes of "present" in the Illinois state legislature.'

What I want, "Mistral," is for President Obama to reform our immigration laws so that it is easier for people to enter our country legally for all legitimate purposes, such as working, raising families, and paying taxes. I don't deny, any more than "HonestLiberal" does, that Obama will take a lot of heat if he dares to do the right thing. There are a lot of xenophobes in this country.

There is, of course, a time and a place to talk about immigration reform. It is NOT in the middle of a speech about health care reform, especially when we observe the health care reform bill under consideration explicitly precludes any provision to reform how immigrants are treated. Representative Wilson's juvenile outburst is an attempt to change the subject, based upon an insinuated falsehood.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 2:46pm
The photo shows nothing of the sort. It was grandstanding, nothing more. He was trying to build on the crappy behavior at the town hall meetings, thinking he could get congress to devolve into chaos, preventing anything truly reformist from happening.

Posted by borealis at 09/10/2009 @ 2:54pm
What I want, "Mistral," is for President Obama to reform our immigration laws so that it is easier for people to enter our country legally

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 2:46pm

That's probably a bad strategy, politically. The unions will raise hell about immigrants competing with their members for jobs, depressing their wages. And unions make up a good deal of the President's voter base.

Posted by Mistral at 09/10/2009 @ 2:54pm
Actually, President Obama never specifically mentions HR3200 in his speech. He talks about "the plan", or "our plan". Which, as far as I can tell, does not actually exist in written or electronic form. Therefore, he speaks the truth, when he says illegal immigrants will not get health benefits under "the plan". I guess this also means that HR676 is dead, because HR676 says:

TITLE I--ELIGIBILITY AND BENEFITS SEC. 101. ELIGIBILITY AND REGISTRATION.

(a) IN GENERAL.--All individuals residing in the United States (including any territory of the United States) are covered under the USNHI Program entitling them to a universal, best quality standard of care. Each such individual shall receive a card with a unique number in the mail. An individual's social security number shall not be used for purposes of registration under this section.

So I guess we can thank the President for getting rid of this bill.

Posted by sntauri at 09/10/2009 @ 3:00pm
Sadly the debate over Health Care reform is reminiscent of the elements that lead to the Civil War. The Civil War was a national debate about Slavery vs Freedom; State rights vs Federal rights; Disenfranchise vs Inclusion. The Health Care reform debate is about Disenfranchisement vs Inclusion. The members of the GOP who oppose Health Care reform are likely to have ancestors that fought under the Confederate Flag, i.e. plantation owners in the south. The only difference between then and now is in the options- the posture is the same. The GOP can't outright enslave the disenfranchised, but they can and do demonstrate a disdain for improving the quality of life for the poor. The GOP see Health Care as an entitlement in the same fashion that slave-holders viewed race as an entitlement. In my opinion, its just another form of oppression.

Posted by rodwilkins at 09/10/2009 @ 3:00pm
Sadly the debate over Health Care reform is reminiscent of the elements that lead to the Civil War. The Civil War was a national debate about Slavery vs Freedom; State rights vs Federal rights; Disenfranchise vs Inclusion. The Health Care reform debate is about Disenfranchisement vs Inclusion. The members of the GOP who oppose Health Care reform are likely to have ancestors that fought under the Confederate Flag, i.e. plantation owners in the south. The only difference between then and now is in the options- the posture is the same. The GOP can't outright enslave the disenfranchised, but they can and do demonstrate a disdain for improving the quality of life for the poor. The GOP see Health Care as an entitlement in the same fashion that slave-holders viewed race as an entitlement. In my opinion, its just another form of oppression.

Posted by rodwilkins at 09/10/2009 @ 3:00pm
I wonder how Barack Obama would handle speaking before the British Parliament. Better still, I wonder how his supporters would handle it. All Presidents lie to the people because they are first and foremost politicians. Anyone who doesn't understand this probably once believed in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. If anyone's insulted, I don't apologize. Politicians play with people's lives and they use the people's money to do it.

Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/10/2009 @ 3:01pm
'Seems like there's a double standard here. Earlier you were giving President Obama the benefit of the doubt on that xenophobia thing (meaning he was too weak a politician to get coverage for illegal aliens in the bill, or -sigh- that he lied in his speech) but antisocialist is labeled "xenophobe" for pointing out that the system would have legal US residents subsidizing illegal aliens, if only because privacy laws would prevent the system from excluding them.'

President Obama has not expressed an opinion on whether illegal immigrants should or should not receive any help from the federal government for health care. Therefore, I have no more reason to accuse him of xenophobia than you or anybody else has to accuse him of lying.

In contrast, "antisocialist" exhibits all the hallmarks of a delusional xenophobe. It is "antisocialist" - and not President Obama, you will note - who has been posting again and again on this thread insinuations that HR 3200 is somehow a boon for illegal immigrants, even though it should be clear to us all that this proposed legislation does nothing to make their lives any less miserable.

I repeat: HR 3200 changes nothing for illegal immigrants. This was all that President Obama claimed. It was the truth. Representative Wilson was wrong, and as a member of Congress, and indeed of the House of Representatives, he of all people should have known better. Therefore, it is Wilson, not Obama, who is either a liar or an idiot.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 3:02pm
Ideally the U.S. will expand this program to cover people who work and live here illegally. Many illegal immigrants are young and healthy, at least in California, so even the insurers might support such a move.

I certainly hope the right wingers posting here aren't suggesting that we deport people if and when they become ill or injured to avoid giving them care. That would be completely inhumane and immoral.

I agree with the writer who stated that it is foolhardy to refuse care to ill people who are here without the necessary paperwork. They won't seek care until there is no choice, and their lack of care could allow the further spread of potent influenza bugs, for example, potentially endangering everyone.

Providing preventive care for all inhabitants will be much cheaper than paying for emergency care in a hospital, just as it is for everyone else. And our rates should be brought down by their participation.

I worked at the IRS for a number of years in the 1980s, and I can attest to the fact that workers without valid social security numbers do file tax returns and do receive other credits such as Earned Income Credit. Many file specifically to claim those credits. The question will become how we can ensure that those who are using someone else's social security number (VERY common) or a TIN actually do buy insurance with whatever credit is offered. If they don't have a proper social security number, how can we track it?

But this is about immigration rules and not really about health care at all. I don't think our immigration policies need to be fixed in this bill. These are thorny issues to be sure, and they will require time and debate to resolve, if resolution is even possible.

Posted by lhbasden at 09/10/2009 @ 3:05pm
I wonder how Barack Obama would handle speaking before the British Parliament. Better still, I wonder how his supporters would handle it. .

Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/10/2009 @ 3:01pm

I am sure he would handle it exponentially better that his predecessor would have. That would have been highly entertaining.

Posted by Extraneous at 09/10/2009 @ 3:05pm
'That's probably a bad strategy, politically. The unions will raise hell about immigrants competing with their members for jobs, depressing their wages. And unions make up a good deal of the President's voter base.'

That's not entirely true, "Mistral." A few unions are involved in across-the-border organizing, and they would like to see more illegal workers changed into legal workers - so that minimum-wage laws and other workplace safety laws become easier to enforce. One of the problems with enforcement now is that illegal workers are so afraid of deportation that they fail to step forward with complaints when their bosses unfairly cheat them and otherwise abuse them. If more workers were legal, more of them would stand up for their rights - to the benefit of all workers.

Some unionists understand this, and some don't. Trade unionists are people, too, and that means that there's some xenophobia in our unions, too. President Obama will have to do some serious myth-busting to make real immigration reform happen. Despite his best efforts, doing the right thing may hurt Obama politically, maybe even more than it helps him. That doesn't change his moral obligation to do the right thing.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 3:09pm
'So I guess we can thank the President for getting rid of this bill.'

Not so fast, "sntauri." You have to remember that it's not the president, but Congress that passes bills and decides what goes into them and what gets left out.

If HR676 somehow passes both chambers of Congress (which does not presently seem likely), and President Obama vetoes the bill BECAUSE of the provision that you mention - THEN you can send your thank-you letter to Obama on behalf of all xenophobes, but not before.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 3:15pm
Does Joe Wilson Believe the President Was Actually Lying?

posted by Christopher Hayes on 09/10/2009 @ 08:31am

C'mon Christopher. Do you actually believe he wasn't?

Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/10/2009 @ 3:22pm
I repeat: HR 3200 changes nothing for illegal immigrants.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 3:02pm

If we assume the system currently provides some support for illegal aliens (otherwise nobody would be complaining about the resulting problems with the healthcare budget in California and other border states),

and if we assume the President's plan would increase coverage (that's the idea, anyway),

and if we assume there's no secret police checking IDs in the hospitals,

then it follows that illegal aliens will be the beneficiaries of some of that increase in coverage.

We can argue whether or not that's a good thing, and we can argue the merits of the political strategy of the President stating that the illegal aliens won't be beneficiaries in his speech (see Oliver North's testimony before Congress on the reasons people lie), but you can't really reconcile his statement with reality.

Posted by Mistral at 09/10/2009 @ 3:26pm
One of the xenophobes is you, "antisocialist." What other explanation could there be for the fact that you continue to obsess about the claim (refuted several times already here) that a federal law would help an illegal immigrant pay for health care - even if this would probably save us all money if it did?

Only strong fear or strong hatred can make a person so selflessly committed to keeping other people miserable, simply because they were born outside this country.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 2:29pm

You're getting me a little bit peeved. You know full well that I'm married to a Black Latina immigrant from El Salvador. I also have stated that I have pastored congregations that were mostly Latin American Immigrants, including a number of illegal immigrants.

I also have stated that as a Pastor I help illegal immigrants get state provided medical and dental care. that I also have provided food, clothing, transportation, and living quarters in my own home to illegal immigrants.

And you have the nerve to call me a xenophobe. If I wasn't a pastor, I could get downright angry at such ignorant slurs.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 3:28pm
Lying to people's faces is a refined craft of ALL politicians. I've never met a politician who hasn't done so, from top to bottom. They're acutally so proud of their ability to do so that they even lie to themselves and their own families.

The better speakers, and that certainly includes this president, actually do it with a straight face and will actually look the camera right in the eye. Clinton actually pointed his finger at us. It's really quite something to behold. Even old honest Abe was told to have spread a yarn or two. It comes whith the profession and we should not tolerate any longer in this day of the internet.

Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/10/2009 @ 3:29pm
JakobFabian, Obama campaigned on the idea that he'd be making some tough decisions that may harm him politically. Specifically, he said if it costs him a second term to do the right thing, he would choose to press on. Where is that guy? I voted for him. I thought I saw a glimmer of him last night. Great presidents make tough decisions rather than expeditious ones.

On the other hand, if he applies too much pressure, he risks failing to get a bill passed. It's pretty sad that real reform may be lost because of Kennedy's death. That would be a tragic legacy for our beloved liberal lion.

Posted by lhbasden at 09/10/2009 @ 3:34pm
Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/10/2009 @ 3:29pm

Like I said before, possible knowledge of a loophole does not make it a lie.

Factually what he said was accurate except in one regard. The mere mention of illegal aliens, by exclusions and or mandates, would technically cause HR3200 to "apply" to illegal aliens.

I am sure when he said "apply" he referred to coverage that would be paid for by tax payers since that is the crux of what the Right is upset about and what he would logically wish to refute.

If existing laws then cover the uninsured when failing to comply with the mandate that is obviously outside the HR3200 and Obama is right.

Posted by !immutable at 09/10/2009 @ 4:06pm
Wilson should not have apologized. Why should anyone apologize for calling a lie a lie. My problems is why did those other 100+ dummies sit there like a bunch of spineless nincompoops? I don't recall any Democrats apologizing for booing George Bush during his State of the Union address.

Obama said illegal immigrants wouldn't get government benefits. But the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, on August 26, says, in part, ‘H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitizens participating in and paying for coverage available through the exchange, whether the noncitizens are legally or illegally present or in the United States temporarily or permanently.' And this CRS report makes it pretty clear. Secondly, there were two opportunities, in committee, for House Democrats to make clear that illegal immigrants would not be covered by putting in requirements to show citizenship. Both of those amendments were in fact rejected."

Posted by BBFmail at 09/10/2009 @ 4:32pm
Correction: Wilson should not have apologized. Why should anyone apologize for calling a lie a lie. My problem is why did those other 100+ dummies sit there like a bunch of spineless nincompoops? I don't recall any Democrats apologizing for booing George Bush during his State of the Union address.

Posted by BBFmail at 09/10/2009 @ 4:34pm
Joe Wilson is an idiot and always has been. His Congressional record will prove that he has been the tool of a right wing, almost fascist, agenda since he was sent to (mis)represent us and the people of his State will surely do the correct thing when he comes around bee essing tham next election. Also check out his financial backers and his off-bat allies and then ask yourself "Who is the real liar?".

Posted by Bunts at 09/10/2009 @ 4:43pm
Xenophobia - I like that word. I think its meaning explains alot!

Posted by vickernation at 09/10/2009 @ 4:45pm
"One would imagine he gets his information about pending legislation from reading it itself or being briefed by his staff..."

That's a pretty naive statement. Legislative enactments are commonly in excess of 500 pages and no one who signs them ever reads them in their entirety.

Posted by Arouete at 09/10/2009 @ 4:51pm
Posted by BBFmail at 09/10/2009 @ 4:34pm

Do you remember the what the republican side said about that behavior?

but, now it must be OK to do what "the left" did?

ergo, what "the left" did was not wrong...

therefore all the whining and crying about the fouls of "the left" were nothing but a bunch of whiners and criers being babies.

Posted by crabwalk at 09/10/2009 @ 4:53pm
Obama would do fine speaking in front of the British Parliament. However, he was speaking to Congress last night and the standards of behavior are a wee bit different there. I've watched a few presidents speak in front of a few congresses, and that is the most inappropriate act I've personally witnessed. Now I suppose I've missed such behavior in the past when I've been unable to watch an address, but at the very least, it is the exception, not the rule.

Posted by borealis at 09/10/2009 @ 4:57pm
One of the xenophobes is you, "antisocialist." What other explanation could there be for the fact that you continue to obsess about the claim (refuted several times already here) that a federal law would help an illegal immigrant pay for health care - even if this would probably save us all money if it did?

Only strong fear or strong hatred can make a person so selflessly committed to keeping other people miserable, simply because they were born outside this country.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 2:29pm

Now let me move beyond your ignorant slurs.

No one has refuted my point. You along with Darla continue to argue a separate point (which is a bizarre way to debate).

Here once again is the president's statement.

<There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false - the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.>

http://tinyurl.com/mwnjcb

This has been proven without any ambiguity to be a lie on 2 counts.

1. It most certainly does apply since it specifically states that illegal aliens must purchase health insurance coverage.

So that statement that the reforms do not apply is clearly a falsehood. What is the current law that requires illegals to purchase health insurance? If none, than doesn't this make this a reform that applies to them?

2. How do you make it read any different than he stated it applies to all other residents of the US?

Under HR 3200, does everyone have to have some form of coverage? Yes, including illegal aliens.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 5:03pm
'But the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, on August 26, says, in part, ‘H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitizens participating in and paying for coverage available through the exchange, whether the noncitizens are legally or illegally present or in the United States temporarily or permanently.' And this CRS report makes it pretty clear.'

"BBFmail," I believe you may have helped to clarify something for us all!

So the Congressional Research Service report dates to August 26, does it? Why, that's over two weeks ago! Perhaps this explains the discrepancy between the conclusions of the CRS and the text of HR 3200: the CRS report is simply out of date!

'Secondly, there were two opportunities, in committee, for House Democrats to make clear that illegal immigrants would not be covered by putting in requirements to show citizenship. Both of those amendments were in fact rejected.'

And thank goodness! If any Democrat had agreed to amend any health care bill requiring health care to be denied to people who fail to prove that they are US-citizens, that would not merely preserve the status quo - because we presently give emergency health care to everyone, regardless of citizenship. No, this would be a foul stroke of xenophobic mean-spiritedness, which I am happy to say has no precedent in the last four decades of the Democratic Party's history - though similarly blatant denials of equal rights (to both nonwhite immigrants and black citizens) were common in the Democrats' earlier history, particularly in the South.

Moreover, the absence of such an amendment does not detract anything from the truth of what President Obama said about HR 3200. You have only to read Mr. Hayes's source (which is the bill itself) to convince yourself of this.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 5:10pm
In addition of what Jakob Fabian posted at 09/10/2009 @ 09:54am, I want to add…

--Yes to "illegal immigrant get free health care..." It have been said that illegal immigrant does not qualify for public assistance such as Medicaid among others, but this is not completely true.

-- For instance, some women in the county of Gwinnett-Georgia had received Medicaid coverage in order to paid hospital bills when delivering their babies. These women had been qualified under an EMA (emergency medical assistance) program thru the Department of Family & Children Services. Not only these practices are unfair but are anti-constitutional for the Americans. The money used to pay the bills for these immigrants, comes from an assignation of state and federal funds. And, these funds are taken from the Americans. Where does this money come from? It is a combination from state and federal gov. funds. But, who provide these funds? Most of Americans. Will our Nation's politics and representatives do the job they were selected to do? Or, Will they continue spending time on silly discrepancies among Republicans and Democrats party…..?

-- I want to believe they will come along as one group to achieve our ultimate dream……restore prosperity, promote peace and re-establish better living conditions for our children's future.

Posted by JCF at 09/10/2009 @ 5:12pm
'You're getting me a little bit peeved. You know full well that I'm married to a Black Latina immigrant from El Salvador. I also have stated that I have pastored congregations that were mostly Latin American Immigrants, including a number of illegal immigrants.

I also have stated that as a Pastor I help illegal immigrants get state provided medical and dental care. that I also have provided food, clothing, transportation, and living quarters in my own home to illegal immigrants.

And you have the nerve to call me a xenophobe. If I wasn't a pastor, I could get downright angry at such ignorant slurs.'

First of all, your black Latina wife doesn't count, for the simple reason that because she is your wife, she is now a US citizen. Xenophobia, by definition, cannot apply to citizens of your own country.

Assuming that what you claim about yourself is true, let me declare that I'm happy that you manage to help out a few illegal immigrants in your own neighborhood. But even if you do everything privately that you claim to do, the xenophobic public policies that you support hurt far more immigrants, whether legal or illegal, than you alone can possibly help.

So I stand by my claim that you are a xenophobe. The preponderance of evidence still supports it.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 5:17pm
If we assume the system currently provides some support for illegal aliens (otherwise nobody would be complaining about the resulting problems with the healthcare budget in California and other border states),

and if we assume the President's plan would increase coverage (that's the idea, anyway),

and if we assume there's no secret police checking IDs in the hospitals,

then it follows that illegal aliens will be the beneficiaries of some of that increase in coverage.'

If they do benefit, "Mistral," they'll do so in the same way that they already benefit from emergency-room visits now, namely because you and I and all other taxpayers pick up the tab after the fact, through PRIVATE channels; that is, by way of hospitals and insurers passing along the costs to us. HR 3200 explicitly does not appropriate any federal money in advance for health care for illegal immigrants.

Frankly, I believe it would save us all money if the bill would help to pay for health care for illegal aliens, but President Obama seems to be calculating that health care reform will pass more easily if he can placate the xenophobes with assurances that illegal aliens will get no federal money - even if this means that they will indirectly have to pay more.

I have to say, "Mistral," that your obsession with this issue does not say much for your love of people whose only crime is to have been born somewhere outside the United States.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 5:36pm
'Frankly, I believe it would save us all money if the bill would help to pay for health care for illegal aliens, but President Obama seems to be calculating that health care reform will pass more easily if he can placate the xenophobes with assurances that illegal aliens will get no federal money - even if this means that they [that is, the xenophobes] will indirectly have to pay more.'

Please note my clarification. Thank you.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 5:38pm
Why does it cost so much to emigrate to the US these days? My parents would never have been able to afford to settle here. They worked in the States from 1938-1953 before being naturalised, of course paying taxes the whole time.

My grandfather worked in Connecticut from 1919-1929 without becoming a citizen. Both were ministers and went to whatever church called them in the US or Canada.

During WWII there was a huge influx of immigrants, particularly from Germany. Our third floor overlooked a large orphanage run by the Catholic diocese in Buffalo. Most of the kids were from Germany and appeared to be of various religions, some being walked to temple on Friday evenings.

Everyone in the neighborhood helped to make them feel at home. And for the German-speaking adults there were English classes almost every night of the week at School 66 and Bennett HS.

We all thought of ourselves as citizens of the world in those days - why has everything changed?

Posted by max843 at 09/10/2009 @ 5:46pm
I have to say, "Mistral," that your obsession with this issue does not say much for your love of people whose only crime is to have been born somewhere outside the United States. Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 5:36pm | ignore this person | warn this person

--I love individuals; not "them" or "they"

xenophobia's your new favorite pet word...the "x" button on your keyboard rejoices in its newfound usefulness!

Posted by urmygyro at 09/10/2009 @ 5:49pm
Good on you, Congressman Joe Wilson.

We've got to wonder why Joe Biden was silent concerning Harry Reid's outbursts at a sitting President not very long ago.

Obama's solution to the illegal aliens issue is to grant Amnesty to all in-country, and declare all the rest of the 6 billion people on the planet instant USA citizenship...problem solved, no more illegal aliens. Of course doing either or both of these things will destroy the USA. But isn't that exactly what Obama and his closest mentors are attempting to do ?

Posted by tucanofulano at 09/10/2009 @ 5:55pm
First of all, your black Latina wife doesn't count, for the simple reason that because she is your wife, she is now a US citizen.

Assuming that what you claim about yourself is true, let me declare that I'm happy that you manage to help out a few illegal immigrants in your own neighborhood. But even if you do everything privately that you claim to do, the xenophobic public policies that you support hurt far more immigrants, whether legal or illegal, than you alone can possibly help.

So I stand by my claim that you are a xenophobe. The preponderance of evidence still supports it.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 5:17pm

Allright bigot, this is my last attempt to bring you into the world and not your bigoted little sphere you have defined on your own.

Xenophobia is a fear of foreigners. My wife is still in most regards a foreigner even though she obtained US citizenship. She speaks English as a second language.

But that's not my main point, important though it is.

I do not support any policies that discriminate or unfairly treat immigrants!

I support amnesty for all illegal immigrants-got that! I oppose those conservatives who want to deport the illegals who are here.

These illegals for the most part are productive members of US society. I know because I do taxes for many of them. I hire them or get them jobs whever possible.

I haven't just helped a few immigrants, I've helped many thousands over several decades. They are my friends and my family. Come back and talk to me when you've gone into the harvest fields to take water and food to illegals picking our crops like I have over the years.

Your attitude is both bigoted and elitist. If I don't see an apology, you go on the ignore list because I don't tolerate bigots.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 5:59pm
Yes, tucanofulano, that's it. The president is secretly trying to destroy the US by granting citizenship to the entire world. Luckily we have watchdogs like you that can uncover these terrible conspiracies before it is too late.

Posted by ZombieTonyBlair at 09/10/2009 @ 5:59pm
restore prosperity, promote peace and re-establish better living conditions for our children's future, and that of the children of the "illegal" immigrants Posted by JCF at 09/10/2009 @ 5:12pm | ignore this person | warn this person

Posted by emile duBois at 09/10/2009 @ 6:00pm
all you need to know about the useless GOP shitbags is this: they will spend TRILLIONS on defense to "protect us" from terrorists and illegal brown people and foreign invaders but not a fucking dime to protect you from vampires like United Healthcare, Aetna, Cigna, Glaxo, Pfizer, Merck, etc. etc. etc. NEW GOP MOTTO: WE'LL WON'T LET THE TERRORISTS KILL YOU, WE'LL DO IT OUR-FUCKING-SELVES.

Well played Joe, your opponent has raised over $400k in contributions.

Keep up the "good" work asshole repugnicants.

Here's another gem from the party of immoral shitbags: "Michael Duvall is a conservative Republican state representative from Orange County, California. While waiting for the start of a legislative hearing in July, the 54-year-old married father of two and family values champion began describing, for the benefit of a colleague seated next to him, his ongoing affairs with two different women."

Posted by sirhcus at 09/10/2009 @ 6:01pm
sorry typo: WE WON'T LET THE TERRORISTS KILL YOU, WE'LL DO IT OUR-FUCKING-SELVES

just want to be sure there is no ambiguity.

"... you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda....." - George W Bush

Posted by sirhcus at 09/10/2009 @ 6:05pm
on to the actual substance of the debate here. Antisocial and JakobFabian, let's try to simmer down the name calling. It doesn't really accomplish anything. Let's all just agree that through internet blogging debate we can't really learn enough about a person to determine if they are a bigot or a xenophobe.

Anitsocialist. You haven't really addressed the point that the bill does provide funding for heath care for illegal aliens. Whether they can get care and the taxpayer eventually have to pick up the tab doesn't really matter in debate concerning this particular bill. Also as other have pointed out this is the way the status quo works, not a change that the bill would impliment. You argue that illegal immigrants would be forced to get coverage. However, I think we all can agree that no one here or anywhere is opposed to them paying for insurance to cover the medical care they receive. But the bill does not provide funding for them to do so, which it does do for legal residents. If the illegal immigrant can not afford coverage even in the new system it is another matter completely.

Posted by ZombieTonyBlair at 09/10/2009 @ 6:07pm
'Your attitude is both bigoted and elitist. If I don't see an apology, you go on the ignore list because I don't tolerate bigots.'

"Antisocialist," I'll let this closing statement of yours stand as evidence that you are as abusive of me personally as I ever was of you.

However, your claim that you support amnesty for immigrants strongly makes the case that you are not, in fact, a xenophobe. Many conservatives are, but you have now shown evidence that you are not. I was wrong about you in this regard. I hope you will accept my sincere apology.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 6:24pm
Anitsocialist. You haven't really addressed the point that the bill does provide funding for heath care for illegal aliens. Whether they can get care and the taxpayer eventually have to pick up the tab doesn't really matter in debate concerning this particular bill. Also as other have pointed out this is the way the status quo works, not a change that the bill would impliment. You argue that illegal immigrants would be forced to get coverage. However, I think we all can agree that no one here or anywhere is opposed to them paying for insurance to cover the medical care they receive. But the bill does not provide funding for them to do so, which it does do for legal residents. If the illegal immigrant can not afford coverage even in the new system it is another matter completely.

Posted by ZombieTonyBlair at 09/10/2009 @ 6:07pm

Well, thanks for your intercession. However, despite what Jakob and Darla think, my point is not that I'm outraged over illegals getting medical coverage.

I'm giving the president the same as he gave last night when he issued a threat to critics.

<"If you misrepresent what's in the plan, we will call you out.">

Well, I'm applying the same standard to the President. That is only fair.

My issue is that he has misrepresented what the plan says and does. He did so on many points. It's just that these blogs concentrated on the illegal issue because of Wilson.

Most analysts have noted that the president's math doesn't work. To me that's one of the bigger issues than his misrepresenting the coverage of illegals.

As I noted, I am a conservative who supports amnesty and I devote a good part of my life to helping the immigrant community, both legal and illegal.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 6:32pm
'However, despite what Jakob and Darla think, my point is not that I'm outraged over illegals getting medical coverage.'

I have to say, "Antisocialist," you have a very strange way of expressing your non-outrage about illegals getting medical coverage. Again and again, you posted text alleging that they would, even in contradiction of the text of HR 3200 itself. If you really had no problem with illegals getting federal money to receive health care, you might have done the pragmatic thing and kept quiet about it - therefore making it more likely that this generous provision would pass, thereby benefiting illegal immigrants and probably saving taxpayer money as well.

You have suggested placing me on the "ignore" list. Upon further reflection, I have decided to place you on MY "ignore" list. I don't enjoy being misled by someone who obsesses so much about trivialities that I draw erroneous conclusions about him. That's embarrassing for me, and I'm sure it's unpleasant for you as well. So for both of our sakes, let me declare you henceforth "ignored."

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 6:46pm
At least at The Nation it's an "ignore" list. On Sarah Palin's Facebook page, at Free Republic and Sean Hannity's blog, if you write anything that is contrary to Repub-Borg thought, no matter how politely worded, they block you and remove all your posts.

Posted by ChattyKathy at 09/10/2009 @ 7:04pm
I have to say, "Antisocialist," you have a very strange way of expressing your non-outrage about illegals getting medical coverage. Again and again, you posted text alleging that they would, even in contradiction of the text of HR 3200 itself. If you really had no problem with illegals getting federal money to receive health care, you might have done the pragmatic thing and kept quiet about it - therefore making it more likely that this generous provision would pass, thereby benefiting illegal immigrants and probably saving taxpayer money as well.

You have suggested placing me on the "ignore" list. Upon further reflection, I have decided to place you on MY "ignore" list. I don't enjoy being misled by someone who obsesses so much about trivialities that I draw erroneous conclusions about him. That's embarrassing for me, and I'm sure it's unpleasant for you as well. So for both of our sakes, let me declare you henceforth "ignored."

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 6:46pm

Well, you've already ignored me, you probably won't see this. But you continue to completely miss my point.

You keep going to the illegals getting funding when I've said I agree that the bill prohibits that. That was never my issue.

My issue remains not will illegals getting medical attention (which I agree they should just as much as anyone else). My point is with President Obama for clearly misleading the public.

He emphatically noted that the reform legislation does not apply to illegals and it clearly does. It adds specificity on their Medicaid coverage that has been lacking. But he was not honest enough to admit it. Instead he attacked others.

You may not like that, but that means he was dishonest about the bill.

hopefully someone will get this to you.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 7:13pm
guest worker program.....

guest worker pays health tax.....

simple.

<i>but where would we get slaves?</i>

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/10/2009 @ 8:37pm
"OHIP has a special provision for people who come with employment authorizations issued by Canada Immigration under the Caribbean Commonwealth and Mexican Seasonal Agricultural Workers Programme. These people are eligible for OHIP right away and without being "ordinarily resident" in Ontario."

sheesh....

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/10/2009 @ 8:44pm
A nation divided, blah blah baln. We have a small minority of people bigoted hateful fools that seem to have no more than a 6th grade education. They deal in lies and distortion, a few people that are making sure this country can't and won't be the beacon of moral responsibility in this world. They are like a zit on an otherwise pretty face; get rid of the zits. I'm thinking we just get in helicopters and go elephant hunting, you betcha! It's time for this folks to get out of the way or be put away. Hey not all us Liberals are pacifists, and we also enjoy the freedoms of the 2nd amendment. Also folks there is no competition, nor will there ever be any, all insurance companies are exempt from the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, they can and do have collusion and they can and do meet to set Price Fixing. The McCarran-Ferguson Act of 1945 specifically exempts them from any actions of Price Fixing, Collusion or unfair business practices. The trade off to get this Act passed was that power to regulate the insurance industry transfered from the Feds to the Sates. It's the reason you can't buy insurance across state lines, if you could that would be interstate commerce and the Feds could nail them for price fixing. Yes Allstate sells across the country but that is because they are registered as a foreign corporation in the states other than their home state. So that cheap insurance plan in one state may have the same name from the same company, but the rates will be higher. Educate yourself on The McCarran-Ferguson Act of 1945 and you have to wonder why this hasn't been mentioned in the Health Reform cause.

Posted by Conspirator at 09/10/2009 @ 9:08pm
(to antisocialist).....So for both of our sakes, let me declare you henceforth "ignored."

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 6:46pm

Well, you've already ignored me, you probably won't see this. But you continue to completely miss my point.

You keep going to the illegals getting funding when I've said I agree that the bill prohibits that. That was never my issue.

My issue remains not will illegals getting medical attention (which I agree they should just as much as anyone else). My point is with President Obama for clearly misleading the public.

He emphatically noted that the reform legislation does not apply to illegals and it clearly does. It adds specificity on their Medicaid coverage that has been lacking. But he was not honest enough to admit it. Instead he attacked others.

You may not like that, but that means he was dishonest about the bill.

hopefully someone will get this to you.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 7:13pm

================================

Kinda sad that some of the better Leftist bloggers are sagging, trying their damn best to uphold the facade of Dem Party solidarity, defending the indefensible.....the little `Dem' boys using all their fingers valiantly trying to plug the ever increasing holes in that dam of public awakening....

Posted by Happy at 09/10/2009 @ 9:41pm
"unauthorized aliens" (illegal immigrants) are required to obtain health insurance

bloviatola

turns out third language by MedicoPharma stuck in bill to suck more $ from the U.S. treasury

Posted by winyahn at 09/10/2009 @ 10:32pm
Illegal aliens? They help keep our economy going.

I watched an Hispanic man walk across the street carrying a grocery bag recently. It was only because of his skin color that I wondered if he was legal. I felt ashamed to even think this.

Why do they help and not hurt the economy? They contribute to our economy, work silently, shop without questioning prices.

This man was carrying groceries that he bought with US currency at a local store. Ca-ching $$$$, (the cash register sound) , the cash register went off at the store, it made money. He helps keep the store in business. And remember, if he's overcharged or shortchanged, he's not going to say a word for fear of discovery.

He was heading to his apartment, he must pay rent to someone; ca-ching, $$$$$, another money transaction for the landlord,

If his child is in school, he needs to buy clothes, books, pencils, etc, for the child. Ca-Ching $$$$, for Staples and Wal-mart.

Maybe he used a fake ID for his job, (yes they are hard-working and get little pay) and pays Social Security and income taxes that he will never be able to collect cause his SS# is fake or a dead persons. Ca-ching, the government makes money cause they won't need to pay any benefits to him cause he's illegal.

Come on now, put yourself in their place. Imagine you live in Mexico, no job, kid's going without food, doctor's care, clothing. But just across the street is the USA where you might get a job to feed your family.

Would you cross the street and enter the USA illegally to feed your family?

Of course you would.

Posted by gtdkad at 09/10/2009 @ 10:45pm
Under HR 3200, does everyone have to have some form of coverage? Yes, including illegal aliens.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/10/2009 @ 5:03pm

TOPIC: HR 3200 HR 3200 HR 3200

Immigrants living illegally would be ----- ineligible ineligible ineligible ineligible ineligible ineligible ineligible ineligible ---- to receive subsidies to afford such coverage, a report from the Congressional Research Service says.

AND BTW: Obama's not a Muslim, was born in USA

The report, prepared by the nonpartisan policy research arm of Congress, provides a close reading of the treatment of noncitizens in the House bill on health care reform, HR 3200. The report found that federal subsidies to obtain health coverage would be restricted to U.S. citizens and legal residents

HR 3200* HR 3200 HR 3200**

** health coverage would be restricted to U.S. citizens and legal residents

*health coverage would be restricted to U.S. citizens and legal residents

** The bill specifically bars illegal immigrants from receiving payments

** The bill specifically bars illegal immigrants from receiving payments

*** HR 3200 specifically bars illegal immigrants from receiving payments per nonpartisan policy research arm of Congress

AND BTW: Obama's not promoting death panels or single-payer.

Posted by winyahn at 09/10/2009 @ 10:59pm
Come on now, put yourself in their place. Imagine you live in Mexico, no job, kid's going without food, doctor's care, clothing. But just across the street is the USA where you might get a job to feed your family.

Would you cross the street and enter the USA illegally to feed your family?

Of course you would.

Posted by gtdkad at 09/10/2009 @ 10:45pm

So, in Mexico, there is nobody there....it's a ghost country without a living human.

Posted by Happy at 09/10/2009 @ 11:18pm
So Joe can't bother to read (or can't READ) the entire bill and understand it's content. As a result...he gets his info from townhall disrupting idiots? Bad enough that....now he behaves like he's one of the townhall disrupting idiots when at a joint Congressional gathering being addressed by the President of the United States?? Are all the white people in South Carolina----IDIOTS? Surely someone there must have some degree of responsible professionalism. NO? How embarrassing to live in such a state.

Posted by Watersisland at 09/11/2009 @ 12:10am
It doesn't matter if Wilson is a member of congress, they can be just as oblivious of their own legislation so long as their staff does everything for them.

Posted by geographycat at 09/11/2009 @ 01:10am
Greetings from Indonesia! Chris, after the speech I flipped channels to find commentary ~ I heard a voice that sounds familiar & it turned out to be you? on Al Jazeera?! What a GREAT suprise and pleasure....

Posted by distantharbor at 09/11/2009 @ 05:22am
Why would Joe Wilson, a Republican from South Carolina, abandon all restraint and trash the dignity of the Joint Session by yelling "You Lie" at the President during his speech? It's not politics, my friends. It is racism pure and simple. You see, it turns out that Gentleman Joe is a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans and fought to keep the Confederate flag flying over the South Carolina statehouse. Like so much of what the right is spewing these days, his outburst was motivated by seething white hatred over the election and a profound incapacity to accept that a black man is now their leader, as well as leader of the free world. Wilson might well have just said, "You lie, boy." At least then his motives would have been transparent. Instead, like all racists, he cowardly cloaked his true purpose in a veneer of mere political frustration.

The same thread of scarlet runs through all of the excesses we have seen of late, beginning with the wackos who turned out for Sarah Palin's rallies during the campaign ("Kill Him!"), the Town Hall meetings, Rush Limbaugh's race baiting, and yes, now Congress itself. Not since the hotheaded slave-owning Southern delegation walked out of Congress and began preparing for civil war have we witnessed such a tone of disrespect during a Joint Session -- and never during a president's address.

Fortunately, President Obama did exactly the right thing in response to Wilson's verbal attack -- he ignored it, just as one would ignore an old uncle at dinner who just can't help himself from telling a racial joke. But that doesn't mean the rest of should ignore or forgive Mr. Wilson's epithet. As citizens, we have the right and responsibility to call out racists and expose their despicable ideology to the light of day.

Posted by humphs75 at 09/11/2009 @ 06:22am
Once again, ungrateful Americans turn to the next poor, huddled masses in line for our time-tested ritual of demonizing and projecting our frustrations onto the very people that keep us from starving to death and drowning in our own trash and feces.

This behavior was lame and inexcusable when Pistol Pete did it in CA with Prop 187....it's just as shameful now.

I'm glad to see that Wilson has apologized for his ignorant outburst.

I'm proud to say that my Mexican-born brother-in-law took the oath and was naturalized yesterday.

Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 07:50am
Antisocial. I guess that I do not understand you point fully. Perhaps you could explain how the proposed bill increases illegal alien's coverage without them actually paying for said increased coverage? Because all the research that I have done and I have seen other people post disagrees with this point you are stressing.

Posted by ZombieTonyBlair at 09/11/2009 @ 08:20am
Come on, "HonestLiberal," you're smarter than that. President Obama did not express in his speech any opinion about whether illegal immigrants SHOULD be covered. He merely pointed out that the proposed legislation makes no such provision.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 1:32pm | ignore this person | warn this person

--JakobFabian, the President was very forceful (I won't add one dime to the deficit, there are no 'death panels' etc)...so if he wanted illegal immigrants to be covered he'd have said it...thus, he's a "xenophobe"!

...also, he doesn't support gay marriage; so throw in "homophobe" while we're at it.

Posted by urmygyro at 09/11/2009 @ 08:52am
Despite his best efforts, doing the right thing may hurt Obama politically, maybe even more than it helps him. That doesn't change his moral obligation to do the right thing.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 3:09pm | ignore this person | warn this person

--right thing: stand up for gay marriage. obama: marriage is between a man and a woman, only.

--right thing: end rendition. obama: keep it going (but promise no more torture).

--right thing: close Guantanamo. obama: gitmo still open for bizness.

--right thing: get out of Iraq and Afghanistan. obama: no end in sight.

Posted by urmygyro at 09/11/2009 @ 09:02am
urmygyro, three of those things he's made significant progress on, and the on the other you making up the president's expressed opinion. Seriously, if you want to contribute to the discussion that's fine, but empty rhetoric really doesn't serve you cause very well.

Posted by ZombieTonyBlair at 09/11/2009 @ 09:21am
If they do benefit, "Mistral," they'll do so in the same way that they already benefit from emergency-room visits now

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 5:36pm

So you agree that they will benefit. You're just quibbling about how. But not all the healthcare resources in the plan will go to emergency care. So the President's plan will provide money to pay for office visits, elective surgery, inpatient treatment, etc. for illegal aliens (unless there is a secret police checking IDs in the hospitals).

This is a good thing, from a public health and humanitarian perspective, but it doesn't mean that what the President said is true.

Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 09:22am
The reason Joe interjected illegal aliens is to place another Republican roadblock on Health Care Reform and to pull a little more money from the far right. Donations are up from that sector.

Motivate and manipulate the base anyway you can no matter what the repercussions. Maybe a smart move in the short term but I have to believe that for the Republican Party, long term, it is bad.

Posted by !immutable at 09/11/2009 @ 09:28am
I'm proud to say that my Mexican-born brother-in-law took the oath and was naturalized yesterday. Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 07:50am | ignore this person | warn this person

good. of course that doesn't mean he won't be subject to all the indignities visited on his former countrymen. ya see, it's the color of their skin, and they're short, and so...different.

Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 09:32am
urmygyro, three of those things he's made significant progress on, and the on the other you making up the president's expressed opinion. Seriously, if you want to contribute to the discussion that's fine, but empty rhetoric really doesn't serve you cause very well.

Posted by ZombieTonyBlair at 09/11/2009 @ 09:21am | ignore this person | warn this person

--"significant progress" is oh such a wishy-washy term...one person's "significant progress" is another's "all's status quo"

--also, which one am I supposedly "making up"?

Posted by urmygyro at 09/11/2009 @ 10:01am
Posted by ZombieTonyBlair at 09/11/2009 @ 08:20am

I never said that it "increased" their coverage. People keep attributing points to me that I have not made.

My argument is very simple and straight forward. Obama said:

<There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false - the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.> http://tinyurl.com/mwnjcb

HR 3200 for the first time codifies a mandate that Unauthorized Aliens must participate in Medicaid.

As noted in the statement above by President Obama, he clearly stated that the reforms do not apply to illegal aliens. That is clearly a false statement as a number of sections a contain specific instructions for the enrollment of the illegals into Medicaid (sections 204, 241)

Again, I'm not writing against the illegals. As I've said, I help them enroll and get the coverage by sponsoring them as a Pastor.

My fight is with Obama lying.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 10:13am
-"significant progress" is oh such a wishy-washy term...one person's "significant progress" is another's "all's status quo"

--also, which one am I supposedly "making up"?

Posted by urmygyro at 09/11/2009 @ 10:01am

No need to make up one "significant progress" during the Obamarama Age....

Since Nov. 4th, the overall stock market has RISEN ~10%; even the DOW turned positive at the close yesterday.

No small feat.....frothy....but this turnup is, now the bad news for Kool-Aid drinkers who are advised to stop reading, due to the perception that most of the truly harmful econ. policies of this, the worst admin. in the history of the USA, will not be implemented.

Inflation, however, will be with us in this Obamarama Age.....My gold mining fund and physical (GLD) gold, thank Magic on this memorable day!

Posted by Happy at 09/11/2009 @ 11:03am
Anti - you said "It adds specificity on their Medicaid coverage that has been lacking." But, from my understanding, which could be flawed, the bill would require their participation, but it would not fund their participation.

So what the bill would be doing would be adding a penalty if they do not self fund said coverage.

Saying that has to have auto insurance isn't the same as extending auto insurance coverage to them.

- urmygyro - You claim that Obama opposes same sex marraige. This is a gross oversimplification of the issue, bordering willful deceit. Your arguement that the president has yet to snap his fingers and solve the other problems somehow is a moral failing on his part is equally dishonest. However, let's keep the discussion to the matter at hand, we could argue each of the other points to death doesn't really add to this discussion.

Posted by ZombieTonyBlair at 09/11/2009 @ 11:15am
Edit: Saying that [someone] has to have auto insurance isn't the same as extending auto insurance coverage to them.

Posted by ZombieTonyBlair at 09/11/2009 @ 11:16am
Mistral - the point made was that the benefits would be the SAME as the status qou. You need to explain your leap of logic to benefits DIFFERENT from the status quo.

Posted by ZombieTonyBlair at 09/11/2009 @ 11:22am
You claim that Obama opposes same sex marriage. This is a gross oversimplification of the issue, bordering willful deceit.

Posted by ZombieTonyBlair at 09/11/2009 @ 11:15am

Oh dear, ZombieTonyBlair, you're not saying that the President was lying when he said that a marriage was between a man and a woman, are you?

Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 11:23am
Posted by ZombieTonyBlair at 09/11/2009 @ 11:15am

You are continuing as others have to fixate on a point that I have not made.

I have not said that the bill provides funding for illegals to have healthcare.

Why do you keep asking me to justify a position that I have not taken?

Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 11:25am
Mistral - the point made was that the benefits would be the SAME as the status qou. You need to explain your leap of logic to benefits DIFFERENT from the status quo.

Posted by ZombieTonyBlair at 09/11/2009 @ 11:22am

So the illegal aliens would get the same benefits, but the legal US residents would get more benefits? How do we tell the difference between illegals and legals? ID cards and police in the hospitals?

Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 11:28am
Wilson may actually "believe President Obama is lying", but what is far more significant is the way in which he chose to assert that view. He essentially called our President out, on National TV, in front of millions of viewers, and by doing so, conveyed the overall republican sentiment that Obama was illigitimately elected to office, and has a socialist agenda for America.

Posted by stylenease at 09/11/2009 @ 11:45am
Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 11:28am

No, illegal aliens would have the same requirements but not get the benefits.

This is not about Immigration Reform it is about Health Care Reform.

Posted by !immutable at 09/11/2009 @ 11:52am
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 09:32am |

He's an interesting character...PhD in 'combustion engineering' who was schooled with diplomats when we was in Mexico, came here to Berkeley, met my sister, and, through years of indoctrination by the Simpsons, is now more 'American' than most people out here in the SF Bay Area.

They're headed out to Boston for a new job opportunity and I'm wondering how his Mexi-spanish-accented speech will play out in the cah by the bah in the backyahd.

They're both excited to vote in the election to replace Ted, but disappointed they'll be outside Barney's district.

We forget how incredibly many of our most productive citizens come from foreign shores.

Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 12:01pm
No, illegal aliens would have the same requirements but not get the benefits.

Posted by !immutable at 09/11/2009 @ 11:52am

They will get the benefits becquse they will go to their doctors and their doctors will be reimbursed by the President's plan because the plan will not check their immigration status.

It is a good thing that they will get healthcare, from both a public health and moral standpoint, but the President's statement in his speech is still false.

Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 12:07pm
We forget how incredibly many of our most productive citizens come from foreign shores. Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 12:01pm | ignore this person | warn this person

I completely agree.

thank you for this, perhaps unintended, compliment.

Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 12:19pm
Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 12:07pm

And you know the reimbursement will come from this plan how?

I am not denying they will find some way to get coverage I just wonder how you have determined where it will come from.

I believe everyone here is smart enough to know that the exclusion of illegal aliens was placed in HR3200 to be able to counter claims by the right that it will benefit illegal aliens and to allow the President and defenders of reform to say that it excludes illegal aliens.

We know that they will still find coverage outside of the plan. But anything outside of the plan does not change the truth of a statement that deals only within the plan so to say that it is false or a lie is not accurate.

As I have pointed out on another thread the only possible falsehood is a technicality where Obama said it will not "apply" but "apply" is there in the mandate that includes illegal aliens. Obama used "apply" in the context of coverage and in that context his statement is true.

Posted by !immutable at 09/11/2009 @ 12:43pm
Just more proof that the stuff that falls from the sky south of the Mason-Dixon line is not really H2O.... but some strange compound that causes brain-cell atrophy or cancer-induced paranoia.

Posted by DejaVu at 09/11/2009 @ 12:49pm
Come on now, put yourself in their place. Imagine you live in Mexico, no job, kid's going without food, doctor's care, clothing. But just across the street is the USA where you might get a job to feed your family. Would you cross the street and enter the USA illegally to feed your family?

Of course you would.

Posted by gtdkad at 09/10/2009 @ 10:45pm

I can hardly belive what I'm reading here. Mexico has the 11th largest economy in the world. They are rich and abundant in natural resources and operate some of the most successful tourist spots in the western hemisphere. There is something like just 4% of their people living in poverty.

Ok, to answer gtdkad's question, no, I would not cross the street illegally to feed my family unless I was absolutely sure that the American government would not punish me. I would be very aware of the fact that there are a bunch of liberals running around up north who would make sure that I'm not punished or sent home and plenty of greedy corporate types that would hire me for five bucks/hour under the table. I would be indifferent to the long lines of legal immigrants who are playing by the rules and waiting for years to become naturalized citizens. Why, because I would feel that Ca., NM., AZ. and Texas are all really mexican lands that were stolen from me anyway so, what the hell, America owes me. What's Ellis Isand.

I am also too spineless to take up arms against my own country's criminals because I trust my corrupt government to do it for me. It's easier and far less risky to take a walk across the border and go pick grapes. And as for my family? Well, I shouldn't have had a family anyway because I had no means to support them. Probably should have gotten an education when I had the chance. Adios Amigos!

Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/11/2009 @ 12:59pm
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 12:19pm |

Utterly intended, LR; thanks for joining the party!

Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 1:26pm
I believe everyone here is smart enough to know that the exclusion of illegal aliens was placed in HR3200 to be able to counter claims by the right that it will benefit illegal aliens and to allow the President and defenders of reform to say that it excludes illegal aliens.

We know that they will still find coverage outside of the plan. But anything outside of the plan does not change the truth of a statement that deals only within the plan

Posted by !immutable at 09/11/2009 @ 12:43pm

So, illegal aliens will be able to get coverage outside the plan, because there are no restrictions, or they can get around the restrictions,

BUT in the President's plan the illegal aliens will not be able get coverage, because they won't be able to get around the restrictions.

How are the restrictions in the President's plan different from the restrictions outside the plan?

Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 2:01pm
Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 2:01pm

The restriction is an exclusion and its presence in HR3200 is a fact. Not something you can argue or say is false.

Are there ways around it, will the exclusion be enforced, can it be enforced, does it even make sense to be in the HR3200, none of these questions change the fact that the exclusion is there.

I think such things should be dealt with in Immigration Reform. I am not sure we should write laws that account for an illegal presence. That is definitely something that I could be way off on since I haven't given it much consideration or research.

Posted by !immutable at 09/11/2009 @ 2:44pm
Are there ways around it, will the exclusion be enforced, can it be enforced, does it even make sense to be in the HR3200, none of these questions change the fact that the exclusion is there.

Posted by !immutable at 09/11/2009 @ 2:44pm

Here's a thought experiment. I hereby make a rule that you (!immutable) cannot wear shoes on the weekend. I'll send it to you by registered mail. Of course, I don't have any means of checking up on your footwear. So then I make a speech and say that nothing in my rules says that !immutable will not be barefoot on Saturday. Am I telling the truth?

Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 3:03pm
Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 3:03pm

It wouldn't matter if I wore shoes or not. If a law stated that I couldn't wear shoes at any particualr time and you simply verified the presence of the law, that was in fact there, how could you be doing anything else other then telling the truth?

Posted by !immutable at 09/11/2009 @ 3:24pm
Posted by !immutable at 09/11/2009 @ 3:24pm

So the only way you can assert that the President was stating the truth is to say that the healthcare proposal will SAY that illegal aliens are not covered, but it will not DO anything to restrict coverage.

Then when the President says that his proposal DOESN'T provide coverage for illegal aliens what he REALLY means is that the proposal DOES provide coverage, but doesn't say so.

Orwellian.

Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 3:39pm
it's the !immutable truth that Mistral is winning this debate!

Posted by urmygyro at 09/11/2009 @ 4:41pm
Psst. I hear that illegal immigrants are, even now, right this very moment, using stoplights. No, seriously, they wait for the light to change, and then they just walk right on through the intersection. Stoplights our tax money paid for! An intersection our tax money paid for! How dare they! Until this can be stopped, no stoplights for anyone.

Oh my God! It's true for pedophiles too! And flag-burners! Shamelessly benefiting from public services! Why doesn't Joe Wilson speak out about these horrible, horrible crises?

Posted by FlipYrWhig at 09/11/2009 @ 5:10pm
careful audio analysis has revealed that what Joe Wilson really said was: "you fly" and "I dig you the most".

Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 7:31pm
'So the illegal aliens would get the same benefits, but the legal US residents would get more benefits? How do we tell the difference between illegals and legals? ID cards and police in the hospitals?'

For those of us who are NOT xenophobes, "Mistral," this is no big deal. For xenophobes like you and "urmygyro," it seems to have the same urgency as a wildfire.

Yes, maybe President Obama was unaware that HR 3200, like God knows how many other laws, is exploitable by needy illegal immigrants who are willing to risk deportment for the sake of their health. So maybe his assurance that none of them will benefit is weak and ultimately ill-founded. So BIG EFFING WHAT? This has to be one of the most INNOCENT and HARMLESS oversights that any politician in our country's entire history has ever committed. What do you think will happen to us if an illegal immigrant sneakily obtains pain killers or pregnancy check-ups by exploiting the loopholes in HR 3200 - as they do with countless other laws that are not VERY CAREFULLY drafted by xenophobes. Would it be the apocalypse? How about this: the guy who gets pain killers GOES BACK TO WORK, and the woman who gets pregnancy check-ups AVOIDS AN EXPENSIVE OPERATION that WE WOULD HAVE TO PAY FOR.

"FlipYrWhig," bless you and your sense of humor! It never fails to put extreme trivialities into perspective.

"ZombieTonyBlair," bless you and your patience! I'm sorry that I ran out long ago.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/11/2009 @ 8:06pm
Wow look at all I have missed. Much has been said about Mr. Wilson's reading abilities, comprehension, mental capacity, was it deliberate or spontaneous. Perhaps someone has already pointed this out but on Count Down last night it was pointed out that the first President to be heckled during an address to a joint secession also happens to be the first Black President? On top of that the heckler happens to be a White man from the South? Could it be that this had nothing to do with Hr3200 or any bill? That this man was so overcome with outrage that a BLACK MAN living in the WHITE House that his outburst was actually self censored? After all he did leave out "You n!----er"

Posted by bascaville at 09/11/2009 @ 9:02pm
In place of yet another apology in the modern sense, let me offer one in the Socratic sense - as a defense of what some readers may regard as my casual, impolitic, and unjust overuse of the word "xenophobe."

It may seem uncharitable for me to suspect so much prejudice in other people, but I confess myself not to be free of prejudice. It is a nearly universal vice. All of us have prejudices, and we only slowly develop them into more accurate judgements of ourselves and our world.

It is in our own lack of self-understanding that prejudice often begins. Xenophobes, for example, regard their native lands as outer extensions of their own private property and imagine that their right to keep intruders out precludes other people's right to enjoy the same things that they do: a place to work, a place to live, shelter, and similar comforts of life.

Another thing that xenophobes lack is an accurate knowledge of how countries and political boundaries have been drawn. It is rather more the exception than the rule that political boundaries are created by the consent of free and equal partners in a peaceful agreement. Certainly in the history shared by Mexico and the United States, we know that the boundary was created in war.

If we reflect, then, that, whereas the United States declared war on Mexico 150 years ago and took about half of its territory away, contemporary Mexicans have no intention of doing the same to us; and that, whereas I may want to keep strangers off my personal property, my country is not really my property at all, but something more like Woody Guthrie's popular anthem: This Land is Your Land, This Land is My Land...; then I think our xenophobia, which is really only a poor judgement based on historical and cultural ignorance, begins to clear itself.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/11/2009 @ 9:59pm
In the very unlikely event that somebody wants to read yet more debates about immigration, let me recommend a thread from "AlterNet":

"Immigration Reform: Is it Dead? Where Is It Heading?" from August 20, 2008, that is, a little more than a year ago. You can find it easily on the web.

Be forewarned: I myself have contributed quite a lot to this AlterNet discussion thread. You can spare yourself the torment of reading anything more by me by carefully avoiding all entries posted by "JakobFabian01."

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/11/2009 @ 10:05pm
Aren't there standards of conduct and ethics in Congress? Isn't there some obligation to actually be accountable for knowing what the hell you're talking about before you're allowed to talk? One of the reasons we absolutely need to investigate and prosecute wrongs perpetrated on the American people by the Bush Administration - not doing so has made outright lying and making things up the norm.

Posted by Ochre at 09/12/2009 @ 07:11am
JakobFabian

what torment? consistently fine and serious posting from you.

Posted by emile duBois at 09/12/2009 @ 08:13am
Utterly intended, LR; thanks for joining the party! Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 1:26pm |

Make that, JR...didn't mean to confuse you with that Aussie chap.

Posted by snowball777 at 09/12/2009 @ 08:23am
thanks for joining the party!

I'll bring the "Bier"

Posted by emile duBois at 09/12/2009 @ 09:22am
I do find great amusement in the irony presented by the conservative position that we should gang up on the illegals and then characterize the President as Hitler.

Posted by snowball777 at 09/12/2009 @ 09:59am
Aren't there standards of conduct and ethics in Congress? Isn't there some obligation to actually be accountable for knowing what the hell you're talking about....

Posted by Ochre at 09/12/2009 @ 07:11am

Excellent observation that The One has no clothes and anyone not fond of Kool-Aid but has COMMON SENSE, knew BHO was lying!

Here's how one smart-as-a-cookie black man, coins this:

September 12, 2009

Obama's Rhetoric vs. Common Sense

By Thomas Sowell

....Charlatan-in-Chief, Barack Obama, whose speech to a joint session of Congress was both a masterpiece of rhetoric and a shameless fraud.

To tell us, with a straight face, that he can insure millions more people without adding to the already skyrocketing deficit, is world-class chutzpa and an insult to anyone's intelligence....

Did we really need CBO experts to tell us that there is no free lunch? Some people probably did and the true believers in the Obama cult may still believe the President, instead of believing either common sense or budget experts....

One of the secrets of being a glib talker is not getting hung up over whether what you are saying is true, and instead giving your full attention to what is required by the audience and the circumstances of the moment, without letting facts get in your way and cramp your style. Obama has mastered that art.

Con men understand that their job is not to use facts to convince skeptics but to use words to help the gullible to believe what they want to believe. No message has been more welcomed by the gullible...than the promise of something for nothing. That is the core of Barack Obama's medical care plan.....

Posted by Happy at 09/12/2009 @ 10:24am
I do find great amusement in the irony presented by the conservative position that we should gang up on the illegals and then characterize the President as Hitler.

Posted by snowball777 at 09/12/2009 @ 09:59am

Now you are taking on Obama's lying habits.

Where is it stated that the conservative position is that we should gang up on illegals?

Where is it stated that the conservative position is that we characterize Obama as Hitler?

Posted by antisocialist at 09/12/2009 @ 12:09pm
'Did we really need CBO experts to tell us that there is no free lunch? Some people probably did and the true believers in the Obama cult may still believe the President, instead of believing either common sense or budget experts....' quoth "Happy."

(1) Concerning the fabled "free lunch": President Obama has never promised anybody a free lunch, whether real or metaphorical. He has merely proposed a fairer and more efficient way to provide health care for everybody. Any claim to the contrary is either stupid or deceitful on Mr. Sowell's part.

(2) There are budget experts who agree with Mr. Obama. The excellent economists Paul Krugman and Dean Baker are wholly in accord with him. They differ from the president only in arguing even more strongly that a strong government-paid public option is required, so that the requirement for universal coverage does not become an unfunded mandate.

(3) Common sense is overrated. If we all trusted common sense rather than the careful measurements and calculations of scientists, we would all still assume, commonsensically, that the Earth stands still and that the moon, the sun, and the stars all revolve around it.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/12/2009 @ 1:09pm
Damn you people for making me talk nicely of antisocialist.

Anti, while an ideologue and a bit of a religious nut, has never represented himself as a xenophobe, all you have to do is loom at what he's saying.

All he's doing is trying to call the president out on his not so true (but still kind of true) statements during his speech. I'm totally down with that.

The only problem is his unfailing willingness to call those who disagree with him socialists or liberals.

Obama's plan, just like Obama the man, is a farce. Deal with it so we can move on.

Posted by TexasFlood at 09/12/2009 @ 1:28pm
Posted by TexasFlood at 09/12/2009 @ 1:28pm | ignore this person | warn this person

actually Obama has gone out of his way, not to make it his plan, but rather one of consensus within and without his party. his approach has been the opposite of "my way or the highway". that is one of the reasons that make him so compelling.

I find your antipathy to Obama quite entertaining, as well as the fact that Obama may be your president for another seven and a half years. suffer!

Posted by emile duBois at 09/12/2009 @ 1:51pm
I find your antipathy to Obama quite entertaining, as well as the fact that Obama may be your president for another seven and a half years. suffer!

Posted by emile duBois at 09/12/2009 @ 1:51pm

If Obama is our president for another 7 1/2 years, we all will suffer.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/12/2009 @ 2:06pm
I find your antipathy to Obama quite entertaining, as well as the fact that Obama may be your president for another seven and a half years. suffer!

Posted by emile duBois at 09/12/2009 @ 1:51pm

If Obama is our president for another 7 1/2 years, we all will suffer.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/12/2009 @ 2:06pm

Just a little something to back up my statement.

<The president's chief economic adviser warned Friday that the nation's unemployment rate could stay "unacceptably high" for years to come -- a situation that would seriously complicate Barack Obama's ability to convince Americans that he's beating back the recession.

"The level of unemployment is unacceptably high," National Economic Council Director Larry Summers said Friday. "And will, by all forecasts, remain unacceptably high for a number of years."

http://tinyurl.com/qrkt2f

More Danger signs

<The U.S. Dollar Index, a six-currency gauge of the greenback's value, has dropped for six consecutive sessions, the longest slump since March, to an 11-month low. Before declining today, crude-oil prices, used by some investors as a gauge of future inflation, jumped 61 percent this year. Gold, which tends to gain when the dollar weakens, has climbed 14 percent in 2009.

"The dollar is going down because of inflation fears" and that pushes gold up, said Leonard Kaplan, the president of Prospector Asset Management in Evanston, Illinois, and a bullion trader for more than three decades. "There is too much money and everything is going up. It's not about supply and demand, it's not about common sense.">

http://tinyurl.com/nvyg6a

Posted by antisocialist at 09/12/2009 @ 2:20pm
Posted by antisocialist at 09/12/2009 @ 12:09pm |

"Where is it stated that the conservative position is that we should gang up on illegals?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dtcqaMHV6Y

O'Reilly, Buchanan, and Dobbs; oh my!

Do you deny that Pugs support of funding local law enforcement of immigration (like the raids in San Rafael, CA that caused a furor) is representative of the conservative position?

"Where is it stated that the conservative position is that we characterize Obama as Hitler?"

The signs the teabaggers are carrying on behalf of Dick Armey and FreedomWorks (the rich, white ACORN).

Posted by snowball777 at 09/12/2009 @ 6:25pm
I just love the tea baggers. they had tens of thousands in their march on Washington, WE had hundreds of thousands.

Posted by emile duBois at 09/12/2009 @ 7:32pm
If Obama is our president for another 7 1/2 years, we all will suffer.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/12/2009 @ 2:06pm

IF the 2 million marchers in DC today is anywhere near accurate, hell, even if halved,.....I am fairly certain it ain't gonna happen! And today is the first full weekend of college football......I would've had a hard time peeling myself away from football today (and thankful there wasn't a TEA event in Houston today).

I do look forward to the next Houston TEA event....and expect even more people than the April 15th one I went to. It's a wonderful thing to feel the energy of Conservatives getting off their butts and just assume this country couldn't stray too far, it CAN!

Posted by Happy at 09/12/2009 @ 7:42pm
My antipathy? Right. Sorry if I can't suck down the kool-aid and make myself happy with a subpar, smooth talking jerk off as my president.

99% of you people, left AND right, are so partisan you can't even recognize when you do the exact things you complain about the other side doing.

I voted for him, I gave him a chance against my better judgement and he turned out EXACTLY like I thought he would.

Posted by TexasFlood at 09/12/2009 @ 10:16pm
If Obama is our president for another 7 1/2 years, we all will suffer.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/12/2009 @ 2:06pm

Well, golly! This was the EXACT same trash I heard from you guys in '92!! Imagine that? The DOW was going to be 2500, and there would be rioting in the streets! I just have to laugh; you folks are so predictable.

Posted by mmadarasz at 09/12/2009 @ 11:40pm
Posted by TexasFlood at 09/12/2009 @ 10:16pm | ignore this person | warn this person

and you decide the winner of the ball game after the first inning.

Posted by emile duBois at 09/13/2009 @ 08:00am
What Wilson did is just playing his bit but critical part from a carefully crafted written script which is to bring the presidency down at any cost. It's a racial thing.

The objective is to bring Obama down, somebody recently said which CNN quoted, healthcare should become HIS Waterloo, lets finish HIM off for GOOD!

USA breeds and thrives on propaganda machinery, the sponsors being the FOX channel . Have they ever been Fair and Balanced? They are staunch believers of TWISTING FACTS and FABRICATE them AS FARCE. It has become a natural phenomena with them, its evidenced based i.e. Bush and Gore election results after all TV channels announced GORE as WINNER, except FOX! And yet Bush eventually was MADE TO WIN! The depth of commitement is scary.

This machinery comes into action whenevery something goes against their wishes, did prove effective ex. Bill Clinton who had favored the palestians, visiting them said I understand your pain and suffering. That did it! His survival was on borrowed time. Yes, he did something immoral, but who wouldnt? YOU, given the same circumstances?

This is simply a hate campaign to bring the presidency down, there is no truth in it whatsoever - READ IT, DON'T LISTEN TO HERESAY! The President has been given a Titanic to fix, resting at the bottom of the sea (economy and healthcare). Let us support our President wholesomely to improve our lives but not to facilitate some crooks in political arena like Wilson and a swine like Hannity of Fox who honors Wilson to his show.

Posted by aleemsyed at 09/13/2009 @ 08:04am
texasflood, you call 9 months a chance? and happy you think that was 2 million? 10 thousand maybe, you guys are nothing if not exaggerators.

Posted by Denise29 at 09/13/2009 @ 08:58am
Yes, he did something immoral,

not according tp everybody.I don't think it was immoral. whom did he injure?

he did something illegal, which was to lie in court. it was hubris on his part, to think he could get away with it.

Posted by emile duBois at 09/13/2009 @ 09:14am
to everybody

Posted by emile duBois at 09/13/2009 @ 09:20am
Happy, your talking about con men, or Thomas Sowell talking about con men is like it takes one to know one, no.

Posted by Denise29 at 09/13/2009 @ 09:35am
Clinton's lie was harmless, which was intended not to hurt the feelings of his wife and daughter! Please wise up to the realistic side of life, not some pink frock with some stains on it. In contrast: WMD, Terror endless alerts to keep the peoples mind busy from focusing on getting caught on the lies of Bush, Cheney and their croonies, one million plus innocent humans , 5000 US soldiers died in vain, all for what? That is a LIE my friend!

The economy crises is all due to the fake war in Iraq, 2.5 millions dollars a day is not a joke, any economy will take a nose dive.

At the same time what bloody court? Each day murderers, rapists are left scot free on the street due to false witnesses, medical certificates. What one need is a clever lawyer and the same court becomes a third rate prostitute's bed.

Posted by aleemsyed at 09/13/2009 @ 10:03am
Posted by aleemsyed at 09/13/2009 @ 10:03am | ignore this person | warn this person

it was a blue dress.

lying in court and under oath, especially by a lawyer, is never harmless.

who is harmed? we all are. we expect the pres, and everyone else, to respect the law.to cynically flout the law, insults every person who believes that we are a nation of laws, not men.

when the most powerful man in the world lies about a trivial matter, he squanders his credibility in serious matters.

we saw that with that goddamn Bush, who lied practically every time he opened his mouth. the damage he and his gangsters did will take decades to undo.

I did not support the cynical impeachment, which mad a mockery out of any proportions in our political life.

Posted by emile duBois at 09/13/2009 @ 10:39am
made not mad

Posted by emile duBois at 09/13/2009 @ 10:39am
Clinton's lie was harmless, which was intended not to hurt the feelings of his wife and daughter!

I should wise up?

by the time Clinton told that lie under oath, his family knew long ago what was up, pun intended.

Posted by emile duBois at 09/13/2009 @ 12:47pm
Santi- What bothers me about your Obama comment is this.We,as a country have been left behind by the conservative movement for the past 30 years. We have been sold out by our political and "commercial" elites .For you to not acknowledge the disaster left behind by the Bush Administration is laughable. I have spoken about mixed signals coming out of the present Administration. Commercial interests have their hands heavily involved in pending legislation and policies. The banking and investment sectors of the economy are its only healthy areas. So what does this leave to most Americans? It seems to me it means a dog fight for jobs that pay less than the previous one. Is that the American dream?Maybe in your line of business it is. I would seriously doubt it considering what Ihave observed over the past months. Perhaps you don't feel Obama has any vision. It could be that you know every policy or speech will be met with a battle. That is the track record I see. The sheer ingenuousness of the Republicans in the Congress and the talkers on the right lead me to that conclusion.

Posted by whatizz at 09/13/2009 @ 2:24pm
Santi- What bothers me about your Obama comment is this.We,as a country have been left behind by the conservative movement for the past 30 years. We have been sold out by our political and "commercial" elites .For you to not acknowledge the disaster left behind by the Bush Administration is laughable. I have spoken about mixed signals coming out of the present Administration. Commercial interests have their hands heavily involved in pending legislation and policies. The banking and investment sectors of the economy are its only healthy areas. So what does this leave to most Americans? It seems to me it means a dog fight for jobs that pay less than the previous one. Is that the American dream?Maybe in your line of business it is. I would seriously doubt it considering what Ihave observed over the past months. Perhaps you don't feel Obama has any vision. It could be that you know every policy or speech will be met with a battle. That is the track record I see. The sheer ingenuousness of the Republicans in the Congress and the talkers on the right lead me to that conclusion.

Posted by whatizz at 09/13/2009 @ 2:29pm
O'Reilly, Buchanan, and Dobbs; oh my!

Do you deny that Pugs support of funding local law enforcement of immigration (like the raids in San Rafael, CA that caused a furor) is representative of the conservative position?

"Where is it stated that the conservative position is that we characterize Obama as Hitler?"

The signs the teabaggers are carrying on behalf of Dick Armey and FreedomWorks (the rich, white ACORN).

Posted by snowball777 at 09/12/2009 @ 6:25pm

1st of all, calling for enforcement of the law is not "ganging up". Unless you also feel that going after drug dealers, or other groups engaged in lawbreaking is ganging up.

Of those you listed, only Buchanan is a conservative. O'Reilly is a moderate, conservative on some issues, liberal on others. Dobbs is a populist.

Secondly, while I believe in giving amnesty to those illegals who are here working, the current law is the law. Are you suggesting that our laws should be ignored?

I'd rather see Congress get some courage and address the issue. But until the do, or the president issues an executive order, laws need to be enforced or we become an anarchy.

On the Hitler, this symbolizes how you have become another one who labels everyone based upon a very tiny few.

You said that it is the "CONSERVATIVE POSITION". Tell me what conservative leaders, politicians, pundits, media personalities have labeled Obama as a Hitler? Not a couple of kooks.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/13/2009 @ 4:25pm
We forget how incredibly many of our most productive citizens come from foreign shores. Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 12:01pm | ignore this person | warn this person

I completely agree.

thank you for this, perhaps unintended, compliment.

Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 12:19pm | ignore this person | warn this person

--while your son smokes pot and spray paints property that ain't his...when in America...right?

Posted by urmygyro at 09/13/2009 @ 4:37pm
Bill oreilley is a moderate!?!? LMAO

yes, and next thing you know Rush will be volunteering at his local homeless shelter.

Whatizz, anti is in now way shape or form allowed to admit that George bush was a tremendous fuck up, because if he does the terrorists win in his version of reality. Arguing with him is like talking to a blank wall that periodically spews "conservative" rhetoric at you.

My advice is to not really bother. As soon as you say anything that doesn't mesh with his opinions you're immediately labeled as a liberal.

Posted by TexasFlood at 09/13/2009 @ 4:41pm
Posted by whatizz at 09/13/2009 @ 2:29pm <Santi- What bothers me about your Obama comment is this.We,as a country have been left behind by the conservative movement for the past 30 years. >

I realize you are fine with regurgitating the dogma of the left, but it simply isn't true. Conservatism is responsible for the ability of the US to have led the way in the dot com era. Reagan freed up capital and encouraged the entrepeneurship that paved the way to this technology paradigm.

I don't know how old you are, but I certainly remember the struggles my family had coping with the morass that Carter gave us in the 70's. Reagan was a breath of sunshine that led to a resurgence of American pride and creativity. Obama reminds me of Carter's approach to governing.

Bush was certainly a mixed bag for America. On the plus side, his taxcuts kept us from a depression after 9/11. His strength and determination against terrorism may only be fully appreciated 20 years or more from now. But he also meddled in education and added more debt by the Medicare drug program. And I disagreed with the handling of the financial mess last year when it surfaced. But the Democrats were eager partners in the financial fiasco.

The American dream is alive and as vibrant as ever. No other nation on the face of the earth offers everyone, from the rich to the poor, unlimited opportunity. I know so many people over the past twenty years plus, who have gone from rags to riches in this country. Conservatism seeks to expand the opportunities for the American dream, not kill them.

Continued

Posted by antisocialist at 09/13/2009 @ 4:45pm
Perhaps you don't feel Obama has any vision.

Posted by whatizz at 09/13/2009 @ 2:29pm

As to Obama, I believe he has a vision.

It's his vision that worries me. I think he is a pragmatic leftist. He wants to see the country move far to the left but is willing to move the goal posts rather than achieve complete victory immediately.

I believe in a constitution that is one of enumerated powers as SCOTUS and the Founders said. Whereas Obama believes like most on the left that it can mean whatever you want it to mean.

That is the heart of conservative opposition to Obama. He seems a genuinely nice person and great family man with real charisma and should not be opposed on personal grounds.

However, to most conservatives like myself, his views put our constitutional republic in jeopardy. So, I hope Republicans become people of principle and stand firm against Obama, not on him personally, but against his policies when necessary.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/13/2009 @ 4:47pm
Who wrote: "A spectre is haunting Europe -- the spectre of communism"?

Marx & Engels, 1848. Manifesto of the Communist Party: Chapter 1

Posted by winyahn at 09/13/2009 @ 6:44pm
Santi- This is like saying his health care speech was heretical. From a liberal viewpoint it was. We can't change too fast and upset our people and institutions. We need to let people have the opportunity to participate in health care exchanges,etc. I don't mind that,it should not end there. Radical? You are joking? He has not been left at all. Again for all the people who have been asleep. The banking and investment parts of the economy are the only sectors of the economy that are performing. Why you ask? The first was bailed out by the government and allowed to bury their real debt. The second is stealing from the public out in the open. they are supported by a large portion of our political " elites". This must include the President because he is not even attempting to reform the insurance industry's runaway freight train approach to revenue hunting. I feel shame for what is going on in front of America's eyes. There is no shame in taking advantage of people anymore. I believe conservatives should be wary. I think they should be wary of the sleeping American. I feel the time is coming when the light bulb is going to come on and they will say we have been had. There is a time coming when the fear mentality is going to turn on the dog.

Posted by whatizz at 09/13/2009 @ 8:05pm
To claim that Joe Wilson was wrong because the subject legislation bars illegals from care is, in my view, too naive. Unless the legislation provides for enforcement, by penalizing care-givers who provide non-emergency care to illegals, fines and/or imprisonment, Joe Wilson is NOT wrong. Laws without teeth are as bad, even worse, than no laws.

Posted by goedel at 09/13/2009 @ 9:39pm
I am not for one minute saying he should not have his opinion on the matter. I am simply stating that as a U.S. Congressman he should be silent in the chamber when being addressed by the President.It is ludicrous that other representatives were carrying signs. This is a group of the highest elected officials in the land. I am saying if there is no civil discourse at that level we are in trouble as a society.

Posted by whatizz at 09/13/2009 @ 11:02pm
You said that it is the "CONSERVATIVE POSITION". Tell me what conservative leaders, politicians, pundits, media personalities have labeled Obama as a Hitler? Not a couple of kooks. Posted by antisocialist at 09/13/2009 @ 4:25pm |

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqXKoql-VnQ

Posted by snowball777 at 09/14/2009 @ 12:15am
You said that it is the "CONSERVATIVE POSITION". Tell me what conservative leaders, politicians, pundits, media personalities have labeled Obama as a Hitler? Not a couple of kooks. Posted by antisocialist at 09/13/2009 @ 4:25pm |

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqXKoql-VnQ

Posted by snowball777 at 09/14/2009 @ 12:15am

I watched it and I'm still waiting. All you really have is the comments of this leftist host of the video saying that Beck says that.

I watched Beck the other day for the first time after hearing about all the controversy surrounding him. What I heard him say during the segment I watched is that he is equally disgusted with both Democrats and Republicans for their letting the country get out of control. And that many Americans are disgusted by both parties and dont' trust any of them.

I can't argue with those sentiments.

Sorry Snowball, you still haven't established that it is the "conservative position".

BTW, a check on the website from which the video was produced indicates that it is run by the Democratic National Committee. Great objective source (LOL)

http://www.fightthesmears.com/

Posted by antisocialist at 09/14/2009 @ 12:50am
What I heard him say during the segment I watched is that he is equally disgusted with both Democrats and Republicans for their letting the country get out of control. And that many Americans are disgusted by both parties and dont' trust any of them.---Posted by antisocialist at 09/14/2009 @ 12:50am

Yes...and that will COMPLETELY DISAPPEAR...

as soon as the 2010 GOP Primaries are completed next spring/summer. You will then not be able to find a single disparaging word against the Republican Party issued from Mr Beck's mouth.

I'll bet $100 on it.

Posted by Mask at 09/14/2009 @ 07:58am
Unless the legislation provides for enforcement, by penalizing care-givers who provide non-emergency care to illegals, fines and/or imprisonment, Joe Wilson is NOT wrong. Laws without teeth are as bad, even worse, than no laws.

Posted by goedel at 09/13/2009 @ 9:39pm

Joe Wilson spoke truth to power.

Posted by Mistral at 09/14/2009 @ 08:06am
SAnti- I think the money that is being thrown around on the health care mess would raise up your hackles. This plundering of the economy should at the very least concern you about the plight of the unfortunate ones in our society. I am appalled at where you sit on this issue. For you to sit with the moneychangers makes me feel let down. This is not about Constitutionality. This is about what is right or wrong. Insurance executives making hundreds of millions of dollars when so many are suffering is not right. Beggars at street corners are indicative of a country's moral decline. You can talk all you want about holding your shoulders straight and marching to your job or to the task at hand. We have to make the people at the top of our society accountable. What we are saying to them is ,"go out and grab everything you can and do what you want". To the financial people we said ,"here is the money get your house in order". They did it the good American. Hid their losses somewhere? Cut jobs and gave bonuses to the executives. How do you reconcile this in your mind Santi? Now our political "elites" from the President on down are giving the" insurance giants" a free pass. How do you sit here and think it is O.K.? This is a moral decision not a political one. Are you trying to not rock the boat so water doesn't come up on deck. I don't ask my sons top agree with I just expect them to care. I expect that from you nafter reading many posts.

Posted by whatizz at 09/14/2009 @ 08:17am
Wilson is guilty of the same hypocrisy all the Republicans are. A great expose would be to find out how many illegal aliens are employed in his district that Wilson is probably aware of but looks the other way because the business owners are campaign contributors. American business owners who give local workers the shaft in order to employ cheap illegal people are in large part responsible for the immigration mess we have today and the complicity of politicians in this charade should not go unnoticed. Then these businessmen and politicians are the ones screaming about socialism and unions. It makes me sick.

Posted by stellaray at 09/14/2009 @ 08:23am
Posted by whatizz at 09/14/2009 @ 08:17am

How do you determine that I sit with the moneychangers?

I opposed the bailout money to the financial institutions and I continue to do so.

How do you propose that we "make the people at the top of our society accountable"? And who decides that?

As to the Insurance "giants", Insurance companies are regulated by each state, not the Federal govt. I asked this the other day and no one responded.

If the Democrats believe that these insurance companies are out of control, why haven't those states that are controlled by Democrats taken any steps to regulate them further? Why haven't they made them guarantee coverage, or halt the policy of recission? Why haven't they done anything at the state level to take any of the steps the Dems are currently proposing at the Federal level?

If they had, we could have compared the results to other states with less regulation and reform.

Finally, I not only rock the boat, I vote 3rd party and formally inform the GOP that I'm doing so and why until they get their house in order.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/14/2009 @ 09:47am
A great expose would be to find out how many illegal aliens are employed in his district that Wilson is probably aware of but looks the other way because the business owners are campaign contributors. American business owners who give local workers the shaft in order to employ cheap illegal people are in large part responsible for the immigration mess we have today and the complicity of politicians in this charade should not go unnoticed. Then these businessmen and politicians are the ones screaming about socialism and unions. It makes me sick.

Posted by stellaray at 09/14/2009 @ 08:23am

Do you understand at all how the Fed govt requires documentation for every person hired that receives a W2?

Every company is required to send copies of Social Security cards or ITIN's, and a statement of verification to the Federal govt for confirmation.

If a new hire presents required documentation, and especially if it passes the Fed review, what is the employer supposed to do beyond that?

Are you aware of the card mills that operate throughout the US to give someone "legal" documentation? You can have a full set within 30 minutes or less.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/14/2009 @ 10:15am
Posted by stellaray at 09/14/2009 @ 08:23am

And just to add some anecdotal info, I have had experiences when I was conducting employee benefit enrollments where the employee told me they needed to check with Human Resources because they couldn't remember what name and social security number they were working under at that job.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/14/2009 @ 10:18am
Joe Wilson as Galileo?

Joe Wilson shouted last Wednesday at President Obama "You lie", then apologized, and later may have remarked that Obama still did not tell the truth.

This half-hearted and under duress apology with predication reminds me of the story of the Roman astronomer Galileo Galilie who enraged the Catholic Church by expounding that the earth circled around the sun and not the other way around, as the church believed.

The angered magnificent power of the church put Galileo on trial at the Inquisition Headquarter in Rome and demanded--under threat of torture, imprisonment and even burning at the stake--to abjure, curse and detest his heretical doctrine.

Frustrated, helpless and while upon his knees in front of the ecclesiastical court, Galileo submitted," I Galileo Galilie….have abjured, cursed and detested…" As he rose from his knees after humiliation he muttered, " E pur si muove."…" Still, it (the earth) does move, though."

Is Wilson the Galileo of the twenty-first century?

Posted by Ibrar at 09/14/2009 @ 10:34am
Is Wilson the Galileo of the twenty-first century?

whatanasininepost

no, he is Joe the plumber, a non entity soon forgotten.

Posted by emile duBois at 09/14/2009 @ 11:04am
Thank you Emila, my thoughts exactly, made me giggle too.

Posted by Denise29 at 09/14/2009 @ 12:18pm
I meant Emile,that dang A got in the way, my apologies Emile.

Posted by Denise29 at 09/14/2009 @ 12:21pm
Posted by Ibrar at 09/14/2009 @ 10:34am

The Galileo story is apochryphal.

Wilson apologized because it created an image of him as a looney-tune....not because he was "under duress" from sinister forces.

He got over-excited in a Glenn Beck kind of way...and it was going to be an obvious PR disaster for him.

Call Wilson gutless if you want...but that's the only explanation for why a "truth teller" backed down, in the face of political considerations.

Posted by Mask at 09/14/2009 @ 12:50pm
as soon as the 2010 GOP Primaries are completed next spring/summer. You will then not be able to find a single disparaging word against the Republican Party issued from Mr Beck's mouth.

I'll bet $100 on it.

Posted by Mask at 09/14/2009 @ 07:58am | ignore this person |

--and the sun will come out, tomorrow!

heheh

Posted by urmygyro at 09/14/2009 @ 2:24pm
Posted by antisocialist at 09/14/2009 @ 10:15am |

Yeah, and everyone who employs illegals is sure to ask them for their documentation and register their W2 info.

Pastor, please...for someone who tosses about the word naive so often, you've got a lot to `teach' yourself.

Can you say, "under the table"? I knew you could...

Posted by snowball777 at 09/14/2009 @ 2:37pm
Aren't those small business owners the real Americans we heard so much?

I guess Americans "really" cheat whether they live in blue states or red :(

Posted by TexasFlood at 09/14/2009 @ 3:15pm
Yeah, and everyone who employs illegals is sure to ask them for their documentation and register their W2 info.

Pastor, please...for someone who tosses about the word naive so often, you've got a lot to `teach' yourself.

Can you say, "under the table"? I knew you could...

Posted by snowball777 at 09/14/2009 @ 2:37pm

Where have I said that there is no one paid under the table?

However the majority of illegals working in companies are not paid under the table.

I noted previously that I have a lot of experience in this regard from several vantage points. I've been an employer dealing with the Federal verification system.

I also experienced it when conducting employee benefit enrollments where employees told me they would have to find out what name they were working under.

Living in California, you should be fully aware of how easily people obtain all the documentation they need to go through the hiring procedure without raising any red flags.

I'm not excusing companies that flaunt the law. I'm saying that the problem is far more complex than some like yourself make it out to be.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/14/2009 @ 3:21pm
I'm a citizen and I have a part-time job where I'm paid "under the table"...and thank goodness!...my less than $40k a year job, after taxes, doesn't provide much cabbage by itself!

Posted by urmygyro at 09/14/2009 @ 3:33pm
Posted by antisocialist at 09/14/2009 @ 3:21pm

"Where have I said that there is no one paid under the table?"

Where did I say that no one gets a job using ID theft?

Ironic you should accuse me of oversimplification, because that's exactly what pretending that this is about documentation alone manages to accomplish.

"However the majority of illegals working in companies are not paid under the table."

I'm sure the ones working 'in companies' did get their jobs that way, but they likely represent a smaller portion of illegals than the untaxed ones.

When you can identify which of the 12+M folks in the US are the illegals, then we can have an objective debate, but I don't think you can back up your assertions with facts, though I'm listening.

Posted by snowball777 at 09/14/2009 @ 4:27pm
Posted by snowball777 at 09/14/2009 @ 4:27pm

I fail to see your point. Are you suggesting that there are not 12-20 million people in this country who crossed the borders illegally?

Why do you think that the government created the ITIN program to provide illegal immigrants with a tax ID number if the problem wasn't so substantial?

And BTW, the ITIN numbers were a creation of the Clinton Admin in 1996. Now I happen to think it was the right idea. But if asked, most liberals would probably have claimed that Republicans did it to help business.

<The IRS has used temporary numbers to process returns involving those who can't get SSNs. Starting January 1, the IRS will instead suspend its processing of such forms until taxpayers provide valid identification numbers. The IRS will begin taking applications for ITINs in July and will issue a new Form W-7 for this purpose.

The ITIN is not available for U.S. citizens or persons legally permitted to reside permanently or to work in the U.S. These taxpayers qualify for SSNs and should obtain them from the Social Security Administration by filing Form SS-5. The ITIN is for tax processing purposes only -- it does not entitle the holder to Social Security benefits or change the holder & thorn's employment or immigration status under U.S. law.>

http://www.unclefed.com/Tax- News/1996/Nr96-28.html

As I've stated previously, I have helped a lot of illegals file the W7 application for the ITIN. I'd rather have them use that instead of someone elses Social Security number. And they are able then to get a refund of their income tax witholding where applicable (depending on income, witholding, and exemptions and deductions).

It also does provide the Fed govt with a more accurate sense of the numbers.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/14/2009 @ 4:45pm
Snow,

More on the ITIN's

the number according to a NY Times report from 2007, more than 11 million ITIN's have been issued, most to illegals.

<In 2005 alone, more than $5 billion in tax liability -- the total owed, including money withheld from paychecks during the year -- was reported in the 2.9 million returns that listed at least one person with an ITIN, she said. And between 1996 and 2003, such filers reported nearly $50 billion of tax liability.>

http://tinyurl.com/kvdpjb

The last bit is also for those like Happy who do not believe that illegals are contributing to either the economy or paying taxes.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/14/2009 @ 5:46pm
The last bit is also for those like Happy who do not believe that illegals are contributing to either the economy or paying taxes.

Posted by antisocialist at 09/14/2009 @ 5:46pm

Now, Larry, where have I EVER claimed that illegals don't contribute to the economy or pay taxes?

They contribute a great deal to the economies of the border states and pay their share of sales taxes and some local taxes.

What I believe is that overall, they cost far more than what they contribute.

Don't forget that w/out the cheap illegal labors they provide, a lot more of the low-skilled Americans would be making a LOT more money that in turn, would alleviate all sorts of other problems such as low-performing schools where half of the kids are taught by bi-lingual teachers (to their detriments).

As conservatives, we have to have the ability to see beyond the obvious and connect the dots better! Having a steady stream of illegals (as has been for decades) mean we can NEVER get a handle on getting ahead on educating the kids nor deal effectively with the gang problems!

Posted by Happy at 09/14/2009 @ 6:06pm
Santi- I said from the President on down our political elites were giving the insurance companies a free pass. How do you hold someone accountable with a plan that starts in 5 years?Even Droopy would know that was goofed up. You are right about fake documents . They are cheap and easily obtainable. This Droopy guy is a racist snob that must have gotten his ass kicked a lot when he was young. He sure doesn't know how to talk to people. I wish I was bi lingual , it is an attribute not a detriment. Droop I hope you are single,the teaching from your lips was crooked.

Posted by whatizz at 09/14/2009 @ 11:46pm
The biggest problem with illegals are they would never leave. I wouldn't if Iwere one. So if they don't leave what do we do have a round up like the Jews in Europe? What a mess,I sure am happy we built a wall to keep our people in.

Posted by whatizz at 09/15/2009 @ 12:21am
Posted by antisocialist at 09/14/2009 @ 5:46pm |

I think we've been arguing past each other on this....we agree that there are 12-20M illegals, that some get jobs with ITINs or ripped SSNs, and that some get paid under the table.

I'm surprised that many ITINs were issued, but I'm curious how many went to 'illegals' and how many went to resident aliens and such.

Here's the most relevant sentence in that NY Times report:

<The increase in filings comes amid talk of an immigration overhaul, with some proposals introduced in Congress linking amnesty to the payment of taxes.>

I sincerely hope this doesn't backfire on them and lead La Migra to their doorstep.

Posted by snowball777 at 09/15/2009 @ 08:49am
For those of us who are NOT xenophobes, "Mistral," this is no big deal. For xenophobes like you and "urmygyro," it seems to have the same urgency as a wildfire.

Posted by JakobFabian at 09/11/2009 @ 8:06pm

If a kid pointed out that the emperor has no clothes, would JakobFabian call that kid a xenophobe?

Heheh

Posted by Mistral at 09/15/2009 @ 2:53pm
For those of us who are NOT xenophobes, "Mistral," this is no big deal. For xenophobes like you and "urmygyro," it seems to have the same urgency as a wildfire. Posted by JakobFabian at 09/11/2009 @ 8:06pm If a kid pointed out that the emperor has no clothes, would JakobFabian call that kid a xenophobe? Heheh Posted by Mistral at 09/15/2009 @ 2:53pm | ignore this person | warn this person

--help me! I've caught XENOPHOBIA! can a doctor treat me? (I don't have health insurance)!

Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 3:40pm
If the immigration overhaul takes as long as the health care reform legislation does to kick in we either will discuss it as elderly "seniors" or it will be next to our obituary.A lot will depend on which party is courting the "hispanic" vote more. At this point the Republicans need desperately to change the "complexion" of their party. Why did Martinez of Florida run away? Was he pushed or is there a scandal coming?

Posted by whatizz at 09/15/2009 @ 5:19pm
It appears the House has voted to censure Joe Wilson for the outburst he already apologized for.

If only he'd done something less damaging to the august reputation of the House of Representatives...like being caught with $90,000 of kickback money in his refridgerator or failing to pay taxes on unreported real estate holdings, maybe things would've went better for him.

Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 5:49pm
It appears the House has voted to censure Joe Wilson for the outburst he already apologized for.

If only he'd done something less damaging to the august reputation of the House of Representatives...like being caught with $90,000 of kickback money in his refridgerator or failing to pay taxes on unreported real estate holdings, maybe things would've went better for him.

Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 5:49pm
It appears the House has voted to censure Joe Wilson for the outburst he already apologized for.

If only he'd done something less damaging to the august reputation of the House of Representatives...like being caught with $90,000 of kickback money in his refridgerator or failing to pay taxes on unreported real estate holdings, maybe things would've went better for him.

Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 5:49pm
Hello Hayes, illegals will be cover, as it is right now they receive a ton of benefits from our nation, by the way if they are illegals why are they here braking the law left to right ? Hayes, one more thing Acorn tapes, no word on that from you or your mates in the media? Do you think tax payers should keep financing Acorn, sir? Looking forward to heard your comments about Acorn. Jose Garcia from Miami.

Posted by gitmousa at 09/15/2009 @ 8:20pm
--help me! I've caught XENOPHOBIA! can a doctor treat me? (I don't have health insurance)! Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 3:40pm |

Yes, but the cure is intensive therapy using foreign language learning tapes and immersion in a sweaty German disco.

Posted by snowball777 at 09/16/2009 @ 07:16am
'Yes, but the cure is intensive therapy using foreign language learning tapes and immersion in a sweaty German disco.' -- snowball777

'Now is the time in Sprockets when ve Dance!' -- Dieter

Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/16/2009 @ 09:06am
Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/16/2009 @ 09:06am |

Hefeweizen huffing leiderhosen laden hosers!

(I'm just jealous of their positive GDP)

Posted by snowball777 at 09/16/2009 @ 12:48pm

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Does Joe Wilson Believe the President Was Actually Lying?

posted by Christopher Hayes on 09/10/2009 @ 08:31am

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Does Joe Wilson Believe the President Was Actually Lying?

posted by Christopher Hayes on 09/10/2009 @ 08:31am

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About the Authors

Te-Ping Chen (Posts | Bio)

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Archives

» The Beat

» The Notion

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