How the Tea-Baggers are Like ACT-UP

There's been some very interesting back and forth about the right-wing disruptions of health care town halls in the Twitterverse and Blogosphere (oh God, did I just type those two words back-to-back?). One of the fascinating aspects of a political culture in which governmental control has flipped, in a relatively short period of time, from the right to the left, is that each side now finds itself making arguments the other side was making only a little while earlier. The Left accused (rightly!) Bush of using fear-mongering to push the nation into pre-emptive war. During the stimulus debate, the Right turned around and used the same talking points, accusing Obama of using fear-mongering to push through $770 bn in public spending.

I don't want to create a false equivalence here. There are very real differences between the rhetoric and approach of left and right, but it's certainly the case that we often use formal arguments (so and so is fear-mongering) as a way to widen the possible appeal for our substantive, ideological pre-commitments. In the case of the Iraq war, it was a terrible idea no matter how it was sold, and I think the right-wing would say the same about the stimulus.

I'm on a team in American politics: I'm proudly, vigorously on the left. So there's no need to bend over backwards to be formally consistent. That said, intellectual honesty requires one to separate out one's formal objections from substantive ones and I've been given pause by the remarks of some right-wing activists like Jon Henke. He and others have been saying: wait a sec, when the left shows up and makes noise somewhere it's activism, but when the right does it it's thuggery and mob rule?

So after discussing the issue on Maddow last night, I've been asking myself, aside from the deep substantive opposition I have to the tea-baggers' ideological agenda (and the insane hypocrisy of people on Medicare screaming about the dangers of government-run health care), what, exactly, my beef is?

I don't think there's anything "wrong" with the tactics of those people who, with the facilitation of large monied interests, are organizing and shouting down their opponents at town hall meetings. But one thing should be clear: these are the tactics of a small, motivated, enraged and engaged minority. The footage of recent town hall scrums remind me, actually, of ACT-UP actions back in NYC when I was growing up. ACT-UP, the AIDS and gay rights group that flourished in the 1980s and 1990s, was impassioned and angry and used dramatic confrontational action to great public effect. They were a vanguard. They were a small, tightly coordinated impassioned minority. And they were fundamentally on the right side of history.

What frustrates me, however, is that no one in the press confused ACT-UP with broader public opinion. No pundits said "the public is clearly feeling rising unease about government inaction on AIDS, as evidenced by the latest ACT-UP protest." Why? Because they were gay, and they had AIDS and they didn't look like "average citizens" or "heartland" voters.

At their root, the town hall protests are a very similar phenomenon. I think these people, unlike ACT-UP, are wrong. Deeply wrong. (They're also not literally fighting for their lives because of a homophobic and indifferent government, but that's neither here nor there). But they're a small, tightly coordinated, enraged minority. They want to scream and fuss, it's a free country, as they say.

The problem is the overwhelming instinct on the part of pundits and the MSM to look, and see old white men in overalls and Legionnaire hats and think they are watching someone give voice to the sentiments of broad swaths of the electorate. And it's just not true. What we're seeing at these events are the voices of radicals, extremists and zealots.

Comments (117)

1. Hayes: "I'm on a team in American politics: I'm proudly, vigorously on the left."

   --NO WAY! I DON'T BELIEVE THIS! STOP THE TWITTERVERSE AND THE BLOGOSPHERE!

   Hayes: "there's no need [for me] to bend over backwards to be formally consistent."

   --poor metaphor. you bend over backwards to be inconsistent. stand up straight and be consistent. it'll be better for your posture and legitimize your point of view.

   Hayes: "There are very real differences between the rhetoric and approach of left and right"

   --Such as?

   Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 1:16pm

2. Seems an ODD comparison the Right wants to draw with their "town hall protestors" and the previous left-wing protestors.

   1. As Mr Hayes notes...they would BOTH be loud but minority opinions. And that would include the Iraq War protests in the early years.

   So why does the Right want to compare their fight against health care reform to issues that were either LOST by the Left...or took YEARS to swing the public opinion over, like the Iraq war??!??!??

   2. Does that mean that the Left/Obama/Dems would be justified in enacting the SAME kind of measures at their town halls that Bush enacted at his?....Screening participants, demands to know party affiliation, etc????

   Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 1:26pm

3. Care to comment on Harris-Lacewell's article today?

   Posted by OneVote at 08/05/2009 @ 1:26pm

4. "And it's just not true. What we're seeing at these events are the voices of radicals, extremists and zealots."

   Keep deluding yourself there C. Hayes, but the truth makes you a fraudulent poser or poster if you prefer!

   "Poll: 72% Say Obama Won't Keep Healthcare Promises

   Wednesday, August 5, 2009 1:50 PM

   A serious credibility gap has emerged between President Obama and voters over healthcare, with 72 percent saying his promise to enact a deficit-neutral overhaul of healthcare is a whopper.

   A new Quinnipiac University poll finds that by a 72 to 21 percent margin, Americans do not believe the president will keep his promise to enact healthcare reform without adding to the federal budget deficit.

   And by 57 percent to 37 percent, voters say healthcare reform should be dropped if it is going to add "significantly" to the deficit.

   Based on interviewed with 2,400 likely voters, the poll reflects a deepening skepticism toward Obama's plans to transform the nation's healthcare system, which accounts for one-sixth of U.S. economic activity.

   "President Barack Obama and Democratic leaders in Congress appear to be losing the public relations war over their plan to revamp the nation's healthcare system," observes Peter A. Brown, the polling institute's assistant director.

   "Americans are more willing to scrap a healthcare overhaul than they are to increase the deficit in order to produce such legislation," he adds. "That's a bad omen for the White House and Congressional leadership as they try to sell their plan to the country this month before the vote counting gets serious on Capitol Hill in September.""

   Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 1:45pm

5. From personal experience, I can tell you that ACT-UP! was not "tightly coordinated." It's actions were tightly coordinated, up to a point, but the organization itself was not.

   ACT-UP! gained public support when it disrupted not the activities of the general public but those of the corporations, non-profits and governmental agencies that could be characterized as contributing to the AIDS crisis. Several of its leading members had worked in public relations, advertising or journalism, and they helped craft talking points and a clear message for the broader membership, the press and the public.

   A major exception to ACT-UP!'s success with the media and public was the Stop the Church protest it co-sponsored with Women's Health Action and Mobilization (WHAM!). Along with a large demonstration, a number of action groups (?) independently organized separate civil disobedience activities outside St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York City - e.g., blocking Fifth Avenue or lying down on the steps - while several smaller groups took various actions inside, some of which were more disruptive than others. It was this very lack of tight coordination at the planning stage, including a directive from the two groups' memberships NOT to engage in certain activities, that led to some really stupid actions taking place in the church and the horrible publicity that followed.

   The folks behind the Town Hall protests seem to want the disruptions to be obnoxious, but I wonder if they realize that for much of the public, they're playing out less like ACT-UP!'s blockades of Big Pharma and the FDA and more like Stop the Church!

   Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 1:56pm

6. Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 1:56pm

   There's another difference, cka-

   99% of right-wingers aren't willing to be arrested in an act of civil disobediance.....no cojones.

   Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 1:58pm

7. Actually, I don't think ACT-UP! is the proper left-wing foil for these Town Hall protests. A better comparison is with the attempts by some on the left to shout down prominent right-wingers on college campuses.

   In both cases, rather than taking advantage of opportunities to speak out against their opponents by using the Q&A period, as well as protesting outside and handing out literature, the disruptors are seen as violating the freedoms of speech and association of their targets AND their audiences.

   In all but the most extreme cases, I think this is an exceedingly stupid tactic, whoever does it.

   Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 2:05pm

8. Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 1:58pm

   Wrong as usual, Mask. I spent four years defending abortion clinics from Operation Rescue's blockades (usually with members of ACT-UP! by my side, bless them). Thousands of right-to-lifers, mostly right-wing, got arrested around the country. And a few (a few dozen?) suffered physical abuse at the hands of cops in Connecticut.

   Just giving the enemy the respect they deserve.

   Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 2:10pm

9. By the way Mask, how much do you want to bet that the "real reforms" you predict will be included in any health care legislation this fall will NOT include the Public Option?

   And please identify the "real reforms" - especially any that actually help the public as opposed to the insurance companies - if neither Single Payer nor the Public Option are passed.

   Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 2:14pm

10. Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 2:05pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --better comparison than what hayes came up with.

    --and i wonder if hayes was playing on homophobia by many conservatives by comparing them to gay men with AIDS? not that hayes would bend over backward to inflame!

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 2:19pm

11. COUNTERACT THE LOBBYIST "MOBS"

    Strike a blow for Democracy and healthcare reform, attend a Townhall meeting in your area:

    http://www.healthcareforamericanow.org/

    Posted by judybrowni at 08/05/2009 @ 2:38pm

12. The key is to let these people speak, but also to cut them off brusquely when they get to carrying on and on, reminding them that they are not the only people who wish to be heard.

    More commentators should note also the many staged events during the Bush years where no one even remotely looking like a troublemaker would have been allowed inside a Right-Wing event (like a Presidential visit). We at least allow everyone in.

    Or maybe that'll have to change. If so, it's so much the worse for democracy.

    Posted by barnesgene at 08/05/2009 @ 2:43pm

13. <What we're seeing at these events are the voices of radicals, extremists and zealots.>

    Right Christopher, because we all "know" that conservatives are ignorant rednecks and thus incapable of holding deeply held and legitimate opposing views to leftists.

    You are guilty of the same snobbery and elitism that marked 60's leftism. Only leftists are activists and involved because of their intellect and genuine passion. Whereas conservatives were (and are by the view of you and others on the left) merely ignorant and uneducated people lacking the cognitive ability to understand the concepts of governing and the "collective good".

    So, it appears that a consistent hallmark of leftist thought is the denigration of everyone that holds an opposing view. Kind of like some other leftist societies (ie Stalin and Mao)

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/05/2009 @ 2:50pm

14. Sure, and the KKK is like ACT-UP.

    Sorry for the hyperbole. I live in the south, and what the teabaggers look like to me are mostly white people who fear blacks and other minorities. And that fear is being stoked by lobbyists and the GOP. Their fear and hatred is being exploited and they are being used to foil the Democrats. They don't know that they're just pawns.

    This is certainly not new to this country. Just look at the propaganda distributed about blacks by industries that benefited from slavery before the civil war. Look how they whipped up lower-class whites that didn't own slaves to the point that they were willing to fight and die for the Confederacy.

    If you ask some of these people if they think the country needs health care reform, they'll say yes. But they just don't want THIS health care reform...as in Obama's...as in the black guy's.

    Posted by GrrrlRomeo at 08/05/2009 @ 2:52pm

15. The Borgen Project has some good information on the cost of addressing global poverty (borgenproject dot org). It only takes $30 billion annually to end world hunger! Yet... we are spending $550 billion annually on the defense budget.

    Posted by hawaiianchica423 at 08/05/2009 @ 2:59pm

16. Oh My God! There is so much wrong with this article that I don't know where to begin so I'll start with the very last paragraph:

    'The problem is the overwhelming instinct on the part of pundits and the MSM to look, and see old white men in overalls and Legionnaire hats and think they are watching someone give voice to the sentiments of broad swaths of the electorate. And it's just not true. What we're seeing at these events are the voices of radicals, extremists and zealots.'...Hayes

    I'd suggest that Mr. Hayes go to his local video rental store tonight and rent a copy of 'Saving Private Ryan'. Old white men in coverall and Legionaire hats???? This ranks as one of the most outrageous remarks that I've ever read anywhere. Where is your respect. Is this the 'new' America that Obama wants? Discard the elderly like so much used trash and ignore the contribution that that generation made to this country?

    It's highly doubtful that people like Hayes with their callous disregard for the'Greatest Generation' could ever begin to understand the groundswell of public anger over this President's policies. It's so easy to ask people to just lay back and take it. The 'old white men as well as people of color didn't lie back and take it when their freedoms were threatened so many years ago and they're sure as hell not about to lay back and let a bunch of Congressmen and Senators who don't even have the decency to read the bills they pass into law punish them for building this country after the trauma of WWII.

    Steven Speilberg and Tom Hanks are collaborating to make another historical drama which will be released in early 2010. It's called 'The Pacific'. It's about 'young' white/colored who survied the slaughter so that they could age and don Legionnaire hats.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/05/2009 @ 3:09pm

17. Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 2:10pm

    Slight difference between the "babies are dying" crowd and the "I don't want Government run health care messing with my Medicare" crowd out there in the town halls, cka.

    You see any of them chaining themselves to any pro-reform Congressman's office or "going limp" in a town hall, refusing to leave or doing "mass die-ins" on the Capitol steps to oppose health care in violation of DC police commands to disperse?

    They'll do a little yelling...hold up some "Obama-Joker" signs....but that's it.

    Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 2:14pm

    cka, nothing I could mention YOU would consider a "real reform" EXCEPT "public option" or "single payer"....is there?

    Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 3:09pm

18. "So, it appears that a consistent hallmark of leftist thought is the denigration of everyone that holds an opposing view."----Posted by antisocialist at 08/05/2009 @ 2:50pm

    Not a few hours after Larry declared liberalism a "disease".

    Naturally "it's different" when HE does it...as I'm sure he'll tell us.

    Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 3:11pm

19. I wouldn't compare the 'Tea-bagger' to Act-Up, but rather to Move-On. As was the case after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, Dec. 7, 1941, a sleeping giant has been awakened in the form of an outraged common man. The fight has just begun.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/05/2009 @ 3:12pm

20. cka, nothing I could mention YOU would consider a "real reform" EXCEPT "public option" or "single payer"....is there?

    Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 3:09pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --in other words, mask doesn't want to go on the record. giving his opinion may make his vulnerable to the "gotcha" moments he tries to catch other posters in: he doesn't want to ever risk having to take his medicine.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 3:19pm

21. Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/05/2009 @ 3:12pm

    So can we get a prediction of NO health care reform bill this fall, from you?....or not that confident in the "fight begun" to go that far?

    Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 3:20pm

22. "So, it appears that a consistent hallmark of leftist thought is the denigration of everyone that holds an opposing view."----Posted by antisocialist at 08/05/2009 @ 2:50pm

    Not a few hours after Larry declared liberalism a "disease".---Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 3:11pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    ---saying leftists denigrate people who hold different views than them is not inconsistent with calling liberalism a disease. but that inconvenient truth doesn't work for your GOTCHA moment does it?

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 3:22pm

23. "So, it appears that a consistent hallmark of leftist thought is the denigration of everyone that holds an opposing view."----Posted by antisocialist at 08/05/2009 @ 2:50pm

    Not a few hours after Larry declared liberalism a "disease".

    Naturally "it's different" when HE does it...as I'm sure he'll tell us.

    Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 3:11pm

    Another of your cognitive weaknesses exposed Mask. An ideology is not a person. I didn't denigrate any people. I denigrated an ideology.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/05/2009 @ 3:24pm

24. Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/05/2009 @ 3:12pm

    So can we get a prediction of NO health care reform bill this fall, from you?....or not that confident in the "fight begun" to go that far?

    Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 3:20pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --translation: "I'm making a safe, middle ground bet on what will happen and am happy to challenge anyone who wants an outcome less likely to happen than my safe, middle ground prediction. oh, and i'm not going to go on the record with the policies I would be supportive of if I was in a position of influence, because I don't want people doing to me what I try to do to them--i.e., save their posts from weeks, months, or years ago in an effort to catch them in GOTCHA moments"

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 3:29pm

25. Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 3:20pm

    Not at all. Why the rush? I've already outlined the four ways that I feel that national health care could be improved drastically. Again:

    1. Tort reform to ease the burden on MD's because of mal-practice issues, saving a trillion over ten years from unnessary testing.

    2. Formation of a national catastrophic illness insurance policy for all, on a voluntary basis at a modest premium.

    3. Outlawing denials of coverage form private insurers because of so-called 'prior condition'.

    4. Most importantly, shoring up Medicare and Medicaid to meet the oncoming baby boomers.

    I think I may have given this issue more thought than President Obama has. If it's at all possible, politicians should forget about the upcoming election, which I believe will be a disaster for democrats and actually put a halt to Obama's ambition, and hammer out a viable health care plan that largly leaves the present system in place but irons out the wrinkles. The least they could do is to read the damn bill.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/05/2009 @ 3:35pm

26. Mask has inspired me, I'm going to make a safe bet: Mask will refuse to say what policies re: health insurance he supports.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 3:43pm

27. I believe that instead of profiling the crowd beforehand and not allowing anyone in who appears to they might be disruptive, they should prominantly post a list of ground rules outside the venue and then enforce them during the Town Hall. The rules could include raising hands and waiting to be recognized before presenting a question or observation. No shouting, etc. Anyone ignoring the rules would be asked to leave and if refusing, escorted out. They could also require questions to be written and then drawn from a barrel for answering. People that just shout and disrupt are trampling on others rights to free speech as much as exercising their own speech. If the ground rules are fair to all and enforced, they would have no legitimate grounds for crying foul (although they surely would).

    Posted by mwhitmore at 08/05/2009 @ 3:44pm

28. Posted by mwhitmore at 08/05/2009 @ 3:44pm

    Yeah, that would be nice but people are way to angry to play nice right now. Afterall, it is the President who is in a hurry because he knows that after next January he will have zero chance to pass health care. There exists a sense of urgency for the populace to make their voices heard NOW.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/05/2009 @ 4:01pm

29. For republicans, moderate democrats and independents to ponder: Would Barack Obama be President today if George W. Bush hadn't been such an arrogant President? Do Obama supporters have buyers remorse yet?

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/05/2009 @ 4:04pm

30. This is one reason why wingnuts go after the left: they're not aware their corporate masters are the ones really screwing them:

    CNN Refusing To Run Health Care Ad Critical Of Insurance Industry

    "The network -- already taking criticism for declining to run an ad criticizing Lou Dobbs -- is now refusing to run an ad nationally criticizing the insurance industry, the group that tried to place the ad.

    The labor-backed Americans United for Change, a top White House ally in the health care wars, tried to book time on CNN and MSNBC for the ad, which hits the insurance industry for wanting to preserve the status quo and levels harsh criticism at insurance giant Cigna's CEO, Ed Hanway.

    "Why do insurance companies and Republicans want to kill health insurance reform? Because they like things the way they are now," the ad says, and then slams Hanway's annual salary of over $12 million and golden parachute retirement package of over $70 million.

    Americans United for Change's spokesman, Jeremy Funk, tells me that CNN refused to run the ad nationally. He says CNN emailed the following reason for rejection:

    "This ad does not comply with our clearance guidelines because it unnecessarily singles out an individual company and person."

    AUC argues, the industry is made up of companies that are run by individuals deciding how to spend huge money to impact the health care debate -- why are they off limits?"

    CNN can run programming claiming that Obama is an illegal alien and employ "consultants" who call Hillary Clinton a bitch and call it "analysis." They can defame any politician, celebrity or ordinary citizen with total impunity under the first amendment.

    But don't even think of taking on a wealthy CEO. That's where they draw the line

    http://tinyurl.com/noz

    Posted by judybrowni at 08/05/2009 @ 4:10pm

31. Posted by judybrowni at 08/05/2009 @ 4:10pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Not sure if The Nation takes advertising money (I don't think it does)...but have we seen (m)any blogs criticizing Liberals on this website? (remember, Blue Dog democrats aren't liberal).

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 4:34pm

32. Nothing from Mask yet on his opinion of what policies should be in place re: health care/health insurance in the U.S.

    SHOCKING!

    but feel free to make me eat my words Mask by posting your substantive opinion on the issue.

    sidenote: what are the odds Mask says he already stated his opinion on some other thread (that he won't link to) in order to dodge giving his opinion; or demands that I give my opinion first?

    (heheh)....

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 4:38pm

33. The expression "tea-baggers" is constantly used by the left. The Tea Party Protests are not "tea-baggers."

    You see this is a cute little twist by liberals. Teabagging is a slang term with origins in the gay community for the unusual practice of laying one's scrotum on someone's face. (Usually that person is asleep, or passed out from durg or alcohol abuse.) Not a practice any true conservative would be aware of on their own.

    So people like Christopher disingenously refer to tea party protesters as "tea-baggers" with a wink, knowing full well the connotation. Fuck you for that Chris. I'd expect better from you.

    Posted by freiheit1 at 08/05/2009 @ 5:03pm

34. Hey, Nation: how about answering my damn customer service request? I can't access any subscriber-only content and have sent numerous requests for relief through your joke of a customer-service system. So desperate for money that you're ripping off subscribers now, are you?

    Posted by jasontoon at 08/05/2009 @ 5:09pm

35. Hey Chris-- When you used the expression "counterfactual" (see 4:23 of the R Maddow video) you gave yourself away as a student of Philosophy. (I checked your Nation bio to confirm.) It's good to know that Philosophy is still producing smart and influential graduates! I really enjoy your thoughtful contributions.

    Posted by RR1 at 08/05/2009 @ 5:13pm

36. Former U.S. Rep. William Jefferson of Louisiana was convicted Wednesday on 11 of the 16 corruption charges against him.

    Jefferson, a 62-year-old Democrat, was indicted by a federal grand jury on June 4, 2007, on corruption charges, about two years after federal agents said they found $90,000 in his freezer. Authorities said the cash was part of a payment in marked bills from an FBI informant in a transaction captured on video.

    Jefferson had pleaded not guilty.

    The jury convicted him on four counts of bribery, three counts of racketeering, three counts of wire fraud and one count of racketeering. He was acquitted on five other counts including wire fraud and obstruction of justice.

    Jefferson had faced a maximum possible sentence of 235 years in prison if convicted on all counts.

    Just when we had given up on justice being served it is vindicated, Great!

    I guess Jefferson will soon be singing the praises of state healthcare for the Demoncrats from inside experience!!! Watch for his prison post coming to the nation soon!

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 5:28pm

37. Judy Brown:

    Perhaps you could cut and paste from:

    Comedy Thesaurus: Judy Brown: ISBN 9781594740589

    We could all use a good laugh now and then!

    Posted by sntauri at 08/05/2009 @ 6:08pm

38. So people like Christopher disingenously refer to tea party protesters as "tea-baggers" with a wink, knowing full well the connotation. Fuck you for that Chris. I'd expect better from you.

    Posted by freiheit1 at 08/05/2009 @ 5:03pm

    Kinda like when Dick Armey referred to Barney Frank as Barney Fag?

    Posted by Balrog at 08/05/2009 @ 7:45pm

39. So people like Christopher disingenously refer to tea party protesters as "tea-baggers" with a wink, knowing full well the connotation. Fuck you for that Chris. I'd expect better from you.

    Posted by freiheit1 at 08/05/2009 @ 5:03pm

    Kinda like when Dick Armey referred to Barney Frank as Barney Fag?

    Posted by Balrog at 08/05/2009 @ 7:45pm

    Go easy on young Christopher....he's learning from the best.....to start class warfare and increase the ideological divide of this great country that, unfortunately, has seen its best days with us Boomers readying to `eat' the young....Lord bless them for being so willing and brought us The Messiah.

    Please disregard the mounting deficits until us Boomers are gone, gone, gone!

    Posted by Happy at 08/05/2009 @ 8:10pm

40. The difference between these protests and the ones the left made some time ago is fundamental. The right is protesting from the upside, from the position of power that is being lost. Their protest is of rage from someone that has "had it all" and someone (like this damn "N" they say) comes to take it away from him. It is in summary the protest of the ones that feel to be privileged with respect to rest of the population. The ones that feel the nation is on their property: "I want my country back"??

    The left protests since the Civil Right movement, or the hippies, asked more fundamental questions about egalitarianism in society.

    The difference between them is clear. One is egotistic, the other defends the weak. Ones say "go get them" , the others will always go for the peace.

    What reason can the 'right' have? Nobody is going to turn away anything from what they belong. At the most the really wealthy will pay some more taxes which is fair for the privilege of being a privileged living in the USA. I bet 100:1 that no real wealthy was there. So, at the root of their protest is their belief that this a society of classes where the 'upper class' (either by real wealth or just by sentiment) should always be the ruling class, the one that dictates and possesses everything...and everyone else just pay what the HMO tells them to pay and shut their mouths!

    These pseudo-Christians, they only talk about their "conversions", but have no pity on the poor and the sick! Their hatred denounces them!

    Posted by Frank42 at 08/05/2009 @ 9:59pm

41. --and i wonder if hayes was playing on homophobia by many conservatives by comparing them to gay men with AIDS? not that hayes would bend over backward to inflame!

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 2:19pm

    I seriously doubt it. And please take a valium.

    Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 10:12pm

42. Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 3:09pm

    They may not be doing sit-ins and chaining themselves to doors yet, but these folks aren't congressional staffers pretending to be angry "citizens" as in Florida 2000. They may be nuts, deluded or misguided, but that doesn't mean they lack passion.

    And Mask, you're dodging the question. There are systems out there in the developed world that still rely on private insurers but are more universal and less expensive than ours, so I'm not locked into Single Payer or the Public Option exclusively. So the question still stands: What "real reforms" do you expect to be part of health care reform if not SP or the PO? You know, specifically (channelling my inner Mask, here)?

    Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 10:19pm

43. The Town Hell protesters should be marginalized and ridiculed for their beliefs, not their corporate backing. It shouldn't be forgotten that the first town hall disruptor was that crazy lady waving her birth certificate and coercing a pledge of allegiance. The Birthers and the Town Hell people are the same. They live in a fact-free vortex and I'll bet better than 4 in 5 of them believe Noah's Ark to be a historical event. Also, the right has used debt and deficits to kill democracy in the third world for decades now and we need to shout down the attempts to do it here. People need to be reminded of the wars and taxcuts that led to the debt. and asked to make the choice between bombs and healthcare. Although eventually cutting out all the executives and shareholders living off the teet of today's healthcare system would allow us to have our cake and bomb it to. Finally, a single payer plan with ridiculously low co-pays and deductibles needs to be pushed for sake of simplicity. Then make a viral commercial. Five. Five Dollar. Five Dollar Healthcare!!!!

    Posted by PentopAnger at 08/05/2009 @ 10:27pm

44. Posted by urmygyro at 08/05/2009 @ 4:34pm

    Yes, The Nation accepts advertising. And they lose subscribers every time they run an ad from FLAME, a pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian group, Fox News (yes, Fox News!) and other right-wingers. And every time, the editors tell readers that the aim of their advertising policy is to raise money for the magazine, not to supplement their editorial policy.

    Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 10:31pm

45. Posted by freiheit1 at 08/05/2009 @ 5:03pm

    You see this is a cute little twist by liberals. Teabagging is a slang term with origins in the gay community for the unusual practice of laying one's scrotum on someone's face. (Usually that person is asleep, or passed out from durg or alcohol abuse.)

    --And where did you get the idea that the person is usually either asleep or passed out from drug or alcohol abuse? From Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson?

    Not a practice any true conservative would be aware of on their own.

    --Just like no "true" conservative would be caught soliciting sex in a public bathroom, carrying on with prostitutes of either sex, chasing after teenagers, abusing children or - perhaps a specialty of English Tories, but I doubt it - taking part in orgies. Nope, only true liberals and the left are aware of kinky sexual practices. You dumb boob.

    Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 10:38pm

46. These pseudo-Christians, they only talk about their "conversions", but have no pity on the poor and the sick! Their hatred denounces them!

    Posted by Frank42 at 08/05/2009 @ 9:59pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Its obvious you either know little or nothing about christianity or choose to do nothing with it except to hate and denegrate it! The only thing the leftist liberally GIVE is the hard working TAXPAYERS MONEY (you know other peoples money), never anything of their own labors.

    Just look at the charitable contributions of leftist politicians and Demoncrats and you will find they rarely contribute more than 1/10th of 1 percent of their own greedy hoard to anyone! Its laughable!

    One denomination out of hundreds of denominations ,Southern Baptist with 17 million members, 44,696 churches spent $526,000,0000 just last year on JUST their missions efforts worldwide and here at home on every aspect of relief for human suffering!

    Its no brag, just information controdicting your ridiculous empty commentary!

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 10:50pm

47. Posted by antisocialist at 08/05/2009 @ 2:50pm

    Larry, you're another one who needs to take a valium. Hayes is addressing the issue of radicals and extremists of both the left and right using similar tactics. He's not saying that conservatives are "incapable of holding deeply held and legitimate opposing views to leftists." In fact, he explicitly concedes the point when he writes "... it was a terrible idea no matter how it was sold, and I think the right-wing would say the same about the stimulus."

    Hayes is not even slamming the Town Hall protesters as extremists, radicals and zealots, per se - how could he given the level of respect he clearly has for ACT-UP! - but for their ideology (fair game) and some of their contradictions (ditto). Instead, he's criticizing the media for acting as if this group of radicals somehow represents a groundswell of public opinion where radicals like ACT-UP! were not presented in the same light. I happen to think he's overstating his case, and understating the props the media gave to ACT-UP! for changing both policy and public opinion. But he didn't write the anti-conservative rant that you think he wrote.

    Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 10:56pm

48. Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 10:50pm

    Nothing against the conservatives, including those of faith, who volunteer for the Red Cross and other groups that do good work, but it's the countries and states with social welfare systems designed by social democrats and liberals that have better results in health, education, child welfare and a whole range of measurements of the good life than those countries and states that try to rely on charity to ensure the common good.

    So stick that in your pipe and tithe it!

    Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 11:03pm

49. Yea, the SBC denomination with less than 5% of total population is only the THIRD largest disaster relief organization behind the Feds. and catholic originated Red Cross. So tout your (other peoples money) government social giving!

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 11:24pm

50. First it was Karl Rove's DON'T COUNT THE VOTE BAGGERS, then the "soon to be annual" TEABAGGERS, and now the HEALTHCARE BAGGERS.

    What's next in the rascally staged BAG OF DEVIOUS TRICKS of clever Mr. Rove? He and his clever buddies are the ultimate examples of ANTI-SOCIAL Republican Hacks, exploiting well intentioned taxpayers at every turn, in the spirit of self interest and gamesmanship. That's the travesty.

    Where are the "very social" bleeding heart religious right and left when we need them to do some health related good? For heaven's sake, how about a compromise for all the blessed poor so they have a fighting chance to inherit the earth? Stand up against Mr. Rove and the clever health care denying heathens and vote Healthcare for All, now!

    Posted by thanksbutnothanks at 08/05/2009 @ 11:36pm

51. Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 11:03pm

    maybe if democrats were as charitable as conservatives charity could do more for the common good...

    puff puff

    Posted by usc1 at 08/05/2009 @ 11:36pm

52. Posted by usc1 at 08/05/2009 @ 11:36pm

    Except if you look at the history of non-profits and charity, government stepped in precisely because charity could not reduce poverty, educate the masses and promote public health to the degree that government could and did.

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 11:24pm

    As I said, nothing against the good work those folks do, but the South and other bastions of charity over government routinely trail behind the Northeast and other states in one category or social welfare after the other. Charity is nice but results matter more.

    Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 11:44pm

53. for all the blessed poor so they have a fighting chance to inherit the earth?Posted by thanksbutnothanks at 08/05/2009 @ 11:36pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    No, its the meek that shall inherit the earth either poor or rich.

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 11:44pm

54. Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 11:44pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    There you have it, the difference is you think extorting money thru government from people is the way to "give" which makes yours non charitable. Charity involves giving out of love NOT coercion or a rulers edict.

    The thing you overlook is administrative costs of which most denominations have little or none of. Up to 50% of most "giving" is eaten up by this!

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 11:54pm

55. LITTLE ROCK, Ark. -- An unruly Little Rock crowd heckled and shouted at two Arkansas Democratic congressmen Wednesday, accusing them of supporting a government-backed health plan that would take away Americans' personal choice and freedom.

    At one point, U.S. Rep. Mike Ross sat with his head in his hands while the crowd shouted. He and fellow Democratic Rep. Vic Snyder told audience members at a forum at Arkansas Children's Hospital that they wouldn't support a completely government-run, single-payer health insurance plan.

    "But that's what Obama wants!" an audience member shouted, leading to more heckling.

    Ross, who represents south Arkansas, sits on the Energy and Commerce Committee and has led his fellow Blue Dog Democrats in delaying a vote on the health care overhaul until at least September. Ross is chairman of the Blue Dogs' health care task force.

    The Blue Dogs _ a group of mostly Southern, fiscally conservative Democrats _ have not committed to supporting or opposing the bill yet. A deal reached last week calls for exempting more small businesses from a requirement to offer coverage, cutting subsidies to help people buy health insurance and making any government-sponsored insurance plan negotiate payment rates with medical providers.

    Lawmakers across the country are encountering growing public doubts about President Barack Obama's push to remake the system for providing medical care, evident in polls that find confidence in Obama's handling of the issue has fallen since January. Concerns are growing about government-run health plans, a growing federal deficit, and the impact on small businesses and end-of-life provisions.

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 01:42am

56. "I've said this several times but let me see if I can make it a little more clear," Ross said. "I don't represent Speaker (Nancy) Pelosi or President Obama or (House Finance Committee Chairman) Barney Frank. I represent the people of Arkansas and I'm not voting for any bill that forces any one plan on anyone, period."

    Many audience members cheered loudly when Ross said he wouldn't back anything that would provide federal funding for abortions or pay for health insurance for illegal immigrants.

    But some were skeptical about the intentions of President Obama and Democrats in Congress.

    ----------

    Boy, except for the few DNC and leftist "plants" in the audiences the American public is eating the Demoncrats alive in their meetings open to the people!!! I hope they keep trying to push this wagonload of horse manure around the country to make sure not a ONE of them including the Obamanation makes re-election in 2010 and 2012!

    No hangings, just plenty of good ole fashion beatings going on!

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 01:48am

57. The White House is under fire for a blog post asking supporters to send "fishy" information received through rumors, chain e-mails and casual conversations to a White House e-mail address, flag@whitehouse.gov.

    Conservatives have pounced on the request, accusing the White House of acting Orwellian.

    "If you get an e-mail from your neighbor and it doesn't sound right, send it to the White House?"said Sen. John Barasso, R-Wyo. " People, I think all across America are going to say is this 1984? What is happening here? Is big brother watching?"

    Radio host Rush Limbaugh accused the White House of using heavy-handed tactics.

    "They're looking for tattletales,"he said. "They're looking for snitches. They're looking for informants."

    Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, charged the White House with compiling an "enemies list."In a letter to the president, Cornyn urged Obama to provide Congress with more details on what the White House plans to do with anyone reported for "fishy"speech.

    "I am not aware of any precedent for a president asking American citizens to report their fellow citizens to the White House for pure political speech that is deemed 'fishy' or otherwise inimical to the White House's political interests,"he wrote.

    "You should not be surprised that these actions taken by your White House staff raise the specter of a data collection program. As Congress debates health care reform and other critical policy matters, citizen engagement must not be chilled by fear of government monitoring the exercise of free speech rights,"he wrote.

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 02:00am

58. The controversy is part of a larger debate on health care reform that has led Democrats to portray town hall audiences protesting a Democratic-sponsored bill as angry mobs duped into hostile actions by special interest groups.

    Way to go Demoncrats "Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" "Go ahead make our day"!

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 02:01am

59. No, its the meek that shall inherit the earth either poor or rich. Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 11:44pm

    Well the TEABAGGERS and HEALTHBAGGERS are definitely NOT MEEK. RUSH is NOT MEEK, but he has inherited a big piece of the pie.

    The mourning sick need to be comforted, and they are being denied by merciless plutocrats, who would allow people to go hungry and die for the sake of profit, as they did during Katrina, and now blame DEMGOV for REPUBGOV attrocities.

    Posted by thanksbutnothanks at 08/06/2009 @ 06:31am

60. Way to go Demoncrats "Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" "Go ahead make our day"! Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 02:01am

    How about the rest of that John Donne quote Mr. Literary? You know the part that says "No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main."??? You know, Healthcare for all???

    I've already donne that onne in a previous comment...

    Posted by thanksbutnothanks at 08/06/2009 @ 06:37am

61. Posted by usc1 at 08/05/2009 @ 11:36pm

    Except if you look at the history of non-profits and charity, government stepped in precisely because charity could not reduce poverty, educate the masses and promote public health to the degree that government could and did.

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 11:24pm

    See my original post.

    ;P

    Posted by usc1 at 08/06/2009 @ 07:23am

62. "4. Most importantly, shoring up Medicare and Medicaid to meet the oncoming baby boomers.

    I think I may have given this issue more thought than President Obama has. "----Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/05/2009 @ 3:35pm

    Cool....then you can explain in DETAIL how you want to "shore up" Medicare and Medicaid.

    Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 08:15am

63. "Poll: 72% Say Obama Won't Keep Healthcare Promises. Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 1:45pm

    Rio! of course 72% say that. I say that. Obama should be making phone calls to the Blue Dog Repugocrats and telling them in no uncertain terms that if they don't get onboard with the program they will lose their seats. He should be using the Bully Pulpit to attack these traitors in the MSM. He should be whipping them into shape.

    But Obama just yesterday said something to the effect that Democrats should not be attacking other Democrats. WTF? I'm tired of the professor act and want to see some fire. The Democrats don't need the party of "NO", but they do need members of their own party. Screw bipartisanship! Obama is a moderate wuss. Not the leftie you pugs like to label him. He is losing his base, The Left.

    Americans favor single payer 49% to 46% according to a July 2009 Time Magazine Poll.

    According to a Grove Insight Opinion Reasearch Poll from Feb 2009. 59% said the government should provide national health insurance.

    A Feb 2009 New York Time/CBS poll said that 59% said government should provide national health insurance. 49% said it should cover all medical problems.

    The polls go on and on with slightly varying results.

    The majority of Americans are not stupid and while the majority want these changes they no longer think Obama can deliver. And neither do I.

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 09:15am

64. The problem I see with these so called tea baggers is that they aren't there to discuss anything. They are there strictly to disrupt the town hall meetings. They keep interrupting the speaker which is rude as hell. They figure if they spread out amongst the crowd that it will make their numbers appear to be more than they are. About 30% of the country is represented by these morons....amazing that the same number represents Bush's core voting group.

    These folks are either very very wealthy or if they are working class folks they are very very stupid. They are defending businesses that will screw them over the coals. I wonder how many of these "tea baggers" are using federal insurance now or plan to use it? I also wonder why in the hell they are so worried about giving themselves another option for insurance other than the privatized monopoly we now have.

    The other thing I noticed is that most of the people waving their arms and ranting as tea baggers are over weight and carrying some extra baggage. If the private insurance companies had their way, those overweight folks would be paying extra for their insurance premiums because they aren't taking care of themselves properly.

    Since I keep my weight down by diet and exercise, perhaps we should let the insurance companies make more profit off these overweight blowhards.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/06/2009 @ 09:15am

65. Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 02:00am

    So, if it's bad for a Democratic White House to asks for snitches (or were they just looking for the content of the crazy e-mails in order to respond to that, rather than trying to get info on the people who sent them?) do you think it's also bad for the right to recruit student snitches to rat out teachers so that state elected officials can get them fired?

    And if it's bad for a Democrat to build a data collection program, was it also bad for Bush/Cheney to try to launch the TIP system?

    Posted by cka2nd at 08/06/2009 @ 09:20am

66. Cool....then you can explain in DETAIL how you want to "shore up" Medicare and Medicaid.

    Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 08:15am

    I told ya'll I was channelling my "inner Mask" when I asked him to provide details of the "real reforms" in place of Single Payer or the Public Option that he expected to see in any health insurance passed this fall. Still hasn't done so, though.

    Posted by cka2nd at 08/06/2009 @ 09:23am

67. Posted by Frank42 at 08/05/2009 @ 9:59pm

    Well said Frank! I especially like the point you brought up about the "baggers" representing the powers that be for that is what they represent knowing or unknowingly. If you are make a stand on an issue, it's best to know exactly who and what you are standing for. My guess is that most of those folks are clueless about who they are standing up for. They sure as hell aren't the "David" in the David versus the Goliath story.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/06/2009 @ 09:27am

68. The risk is Democrats will pass some cobbled up, watered down, waste of money and doomed to fail "healthcare reform" that isn't reform at all. And then they will claim some sort of "Victory" and pat each other on the back and smile as they cut the ribbon on this crap.

    And meanwhile the American People who need meaningful healthcare reform NOW! Will have to pay alot for nothing and be left holding another smelly "bag o' crap". And then wait who knows how many years for it to come up again.

    It will of course, include a mandate that everyone have "Health Insurance" or face a fine or possibly jail. And will be a boon and giveaway to the for profit vampiric health and pharma corporations that we were trying to eliminate in the first place.

    If this happens, I for one will quit my job and dedicate what's left of my life to civil disobedience.

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 09:34am

69. At least I got my daily dose of xtians bringin false witness against their neighbors.

    BP and Larry never fail me on that one.

    If only they had a set of rules to guide them.

    Posted by crabwalk at 08/06/2009 @ 09:43am

70. The problem I see with these so called tea baggers is that they aren't there to discuss anything. They are there strictly to disrupt the town hall meetings. They keep interrupting the speaker which is rude as hell. Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/06/2009 @ 09:15am

    Those are the same tactics that the Nazi brownshirts used to stiffle meaningfull debate at Socialist Party meetings in 1930's Germany. They would go out in organized groups to intentionally disrupt meetings by shouting down speakers at these meetings. And it worked.

    The only difference is, when the Socialists who were attending these meetings would leave, Brownshirts waiting outside with clubs would beat the crap out of them aswell.

    These tactics worked, and we should not forget the lessons of history.

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 09:46am

71. Posted by cka2nd at 08/06/2009 @ 09:23am

    And CKA, I asked...are there ANY health care reforms that you'd consider "real reforms" that are NOT single-payer or public option?

    I've not changed my position...single-payer WILL be the ultimate outcome...likely in 10 years, possibly under a Republican President who's trying to pull a "Clinton-welfare reform" triangulation.

    So I don't have a dog in this fight, since this is merely a step towards it regardless of the bill's final composition. I merely ask questions of the right-wingers that they don't have answers to on THEIR solution.

    But what will come out of the Congress this fall, will be "trimming at the edges"..."modest"...and as the Right will rightly claim "incrementalism".

    But given you are an avowed socialist...you'll claim it is a complete failure regardless. So how do I win an argument that involves me agreeing with your ultimate goal (if by default)....and since you've already made up your mind, you will accept no compromise???

    Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 09:48am

72. If the Socialists had fought back. World War 2 may have never happened. And the slaughter of 6 million Jews would have been avoided. But they were not organized to respond to violence.

    Funny thing is Germany is now a basically sucessfull Socialist Country.

    Weird Huh?

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 09:51am

73. Posted by usc1 at 08/05/2009 @ 11:36pm

    Except if you look at the history of non-profits and charity, government stepped in precisely because charity could not reduce poverty, educate the masses and promote public health to the degree that government could and did.

    Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 11:44pm

    Guess cka2nd just knows that having "stepped in", Gubbers have reduced poverty, have educated the masses & has promoted public health....all to a state of nirvana today?

    Posted by Happy at 08/06/2009 @ 10:01am

74. "They're looking for tattletales,"he said. "They're looking for snitches. They're looking for informants." Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 02:00am

    Another fear tactic and soon to be "urban legend" that is being promulgated by right wingnuts.

    It is nothing more than an effort by the right and the insurance industry mobs to push back against an effort by the White House to keep track of lies being spread by the bottom feeders. Here is the actual release:

    There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can't keep track of all of them here at the White House, we're asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 10:08am

75. They are not asking for names and addresses of people. Only the content of the rumors so that they have a heads up on how to respond to them. Actually asking the people to help them gather the lies. Not a bad idea.

    But the wingers will spin this into "insane psychopathic world", the place where people like Hannity, Rush, Drudge, Colter, Malkin, O'Reilly, and a whole host of other miscreants hang out.

    Can you imagine going to that world? I think the Christians call it "HELL". I wonder which one plays the part of Satan?

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 10:23am

76. And for the record I would like to thank Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Al Gore and Barack Obama for demonstrating that Diplomacy can work wonders. I was actually smiling, for the first time in awhile, when the two journalists were released from North Korea.

    Made me feel good. This is just one example of what is possible when you have real adults working together.

    I have stated before than Kim Jong- il is like a petulant pouting child. Give him a little attention and a photo op with one of his hero's, and he will literally Gush. Anyone with a wit of an understanding of psychology can figure that imp out.

    Years ago Clinton sent him a note expressing his condolences on the death of his father. Talk about political capital that pays of in unexpected ways.

    While everyone is feeling all warm and fuzzy, we should pounce on the opportunity.. Sorry if that is off topic.

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 10:45am

77. Guess cka2nd just knows that having "stepped in", Gubbers have reduced poverty, have educated the masses & has promoted public health....all to a state of nirvana today?

    Posted by Happy at 08/06/2009 @ 10:01am

    Hey Happy! I think you should definitely put down the pipe and lay off the koolaid.

    That last post was a mess...

    Maybe it's an epiphany. We can only hope.

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 10:58am

78. The Demoncrats are showing their "true colors" on this one!

    Nancy Pelosi Speaker of the House of Representatives, SUPPOSEDLY representing the intrest of the American people goes on tape actually saying the the Americans dissenting against her totalitarian abuses and socialistic healthcare she wants to ram down everyones throat are wearing SWASTIKA armbands!

    Keep up the good work Demoncrats and there will be NONE of you in the U.S. congress or Presidency next election cycle!!!!

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 11:10am

79. Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 10:58am

    HAPP in his libertarian zeal of course, ignores most US history in the 20th Century.

    "reduced poverty"?....yep, guess where? Among senior citizens. Before the 1940s, THE predominantly poor demographic in this country, rated among the poorest among us, because they had few pensions until Social Security and the unions. Google up "poorhouses" or "poor farms".

    "promoted public health"...again, check out the pre-Public Health movement history in this country. From typhus to cholera to veneral disease.

    "educated the masses"?....okay, HAPP may have one good example on why this one failed...

    since HE likely went to public education all his schooling....LOL

    Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 11:14am

80. Mask: "I've not changed my position...single-payer WILL be the ultimate outcome...likely in 10 years, possibly under a Republican President who's trying to pull a "Clinton-welfare reform" triangulation."

    --predictions are all well and good; especially when you're predicting a decade out (although I don't doubt you'll still be here then spending your time making predictions for 2029 and not giving your personal opinion on the policies).

    Mask: "So I don't have a dog in this fight, since this is merely a step towards it regardless of the bill's final composition. I merely ask questions of the right-wingers that they don't have answers to on THEIR solution."

    --don't have a dog in the fight? meaning what? you don't have an opinion on what the national policy on health care/health insurance should be? and you don't merely ask questions--you try to trap people in gotcha moments--which is lame for someone who won't give his own opinion on the subject.

    Mask: "But what will come out of the Congress this fall, will be "trimming at the edges"..."modest"...and as the Right will rightly claim "incrementalism"."

    --shocking that your prediction is a safe, middle-ground bet. even more shocking that you think it's somehow proves you have some great political acumen to predict that modest change will occur.

    Mask : "So how do I win an argument that involves me agreeing with your ultimate goal (if by default)"

    --very revealing on why mask won't express his opinion on what the health care/health insurance policy should be. he doesn't want to get trapped in a position b/c it hurts his chances of "winning"

    Mask: "and since you've already made up your mind, you will accept no compromise???"

    --like yours isn't made up too. you're just too cowardly to share it.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 11:42am

81. Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 11:42am

    urmy, I'd LIKE health care to return to something reasonable and cheap...but that's not going to happen. Too many years of Democrats bickering and Republicans lying about health care reform have ended that.

    I don't want it to be single-payer...but that's all that's left now. The Dems will pass "incremental" reforms...Repubs will pass nothing if they ever get back in power, not even what they claim to support now...and the problem will get worse until The Big One is the only solution left.

    And like I said, likely it could end up like welfare reform in reverse, with a Repub President desperate to appeal to the Middle cutting a deal with a Dem Congress to pass it.

    So...what's your solution? And then tell us why the GOP Congress with a GOP White House didn't attempt it from 2003- 2006?

    Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 12:07pm

82. Americans dissenting against her totalitarian abuses and socialistic healthcare she wants to ram down everyones throat are wearing SWASTIKA armbands! Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 11:10am

    --like yours isn't made up too. you're just too cowardly to share it.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 11:42am

    Wow. Where does one start with all this?

    It seems, according to Rio that Pelosians are wearing Swastika armbands.

    And according to the proverbial son/daughter "urmygyro", he/she seems to be unable to get anyone to respond to it's questions and share.

    According to "urmgyro", everyone is withholding important information.

    If this is the sort of human resources that the wingnut right has to offer, we need not worry.

    Unless they start stalking you..

    Fortunately I have reserves of firearms to deal with that situation. Should it ever arise.

    The world of the creepy people..

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 12:10pm

83. The bizarre Democrat reaction to their own constituents -- the ones they invited to Congressional town hall meetings -- morphed yesterday from the realm of the strange into the far reaches of the Twilight Zone. Average, everyday Americans are showing up at Democrat Congressional town hall events across the country to voice their frustration with the far left liberal agenda being stampeded through Congress by the Democrat majority.

    Mostly comprised of seniors and veterans, these large crowds at the town hall meetings are actually reading the healthcare bill and asking the tough questions. Democrats are stunned that these Americans are angry about being lied to about the government takeover of healthcare.

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 12:12pm

84. It seems, according to Rio that Pelosians are wearing Swastika armbands.

    Sorry that should read Anti-Pelosians.

    I drove all night and am a little weary.

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 12:12pm

85. Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 12:10pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    The Demoncrats are showing their "true colors" on this one!

    Nancy Pelosi Speaker of the House of Representatives, SUPPOSEDLY representing the intrest of the American people goes on tape actually saying the the Americans dissenting against her totalitarian abuses and socialistic healthcare she wants to ram down everyones throat are wearing SWASTIKA armbands!

    Keep up the good work Demoncrats and there will be NONE of you in the U.S. congress or Presidency next election cycle!!!!

    Pelosis on YouTube under "Nanci Pelosi Says Townhall Protesters Carry Swastikas"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaC-uMzvKKM

    Cute for a totalitarians to accuse others! See for yourself!

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 12:15pm

86. Just like no "true" conservative would be caught soliciting sex in a public bathroom, carrying on with prostitutes of either sex, chasing after teenagers, abusing children or - perhaps a specialty of English Tories, but I doubt it - taking part in orgies. Nope, only true liberals and the left are aware of kinky sexual practices. You dumb boob.

    Posted by cka2nd at 08/05/2009 @ 10:38pm

    No, you're wrong, as is often the case. I never said only true liberals and the left are aware of kinky sexual practices. Those are your words not mine. I said that "teabagging" is, "Not a practice any true conservative would be aware of on their own."

    Funny how you would jump to such a defensive mode cka2nd, without even addressing the point of my post.

    That is, Christopher attempts to marginalize the tea Party Protests by refering to their participants as "teabaggers", a clear and veiled comical reference to that practice of teabagging. I know it. Christopher knows it and you know it.

    You just won't admit it.

    But you are correct when you wrote, "No "true" conservative would be caught soliciting sex in a public bathroom, carrying on with prostitutes of either sex, chasing after teenagers, abusing children,[and] taking part in orgies. Proving that even a blind pig occasionally finds an acorn. Good job pig.

    Posted by freiheit1 at 08/06/2009 @ 12:16pm

87. Mask: "I'd LIKE health care to return to something reasonable and cheap"

    --way to go out on a limb!

    Mask: "...but that's not going to happen."

    --way to go out on a limb!

    Mask :"Too many years of Democrats bickering and Republicans lying about health care reform have ended that."

    --shocked that you fall back on the pie-in-the-sky/liar dichotomy for democrats/republicans

    Mask: "I don't want it to be single-payer...but that's all that's left now."

    --saying what you don't want it to be is not close to the same as saying what you want it be. i want you to say what you'd want it to be if you were in control and politics wasn't an issue.

    Mask: "The Dems will pass "incremental" reforms...Repubs will pass nothing if they ever get back in power, not even what they claim to support now...and the problem will get worse until The Big One is the only solution left."

    --falling back on safe predictions again. old habits die hard.

    Mask: "And like I said, likely it could end up like welfare reform in reverse, with a Repub President desperate to appeal to the Middle cutting a deal with a Dem Congress to pass it."

    --falling back on safe preidctions again. old habits die hard.

    Mask : "So...what's your solution?"

    --I want universal health care. That's what I think is best for the American people. I don't have a solution on how to get that done. FEEL FREE TO SAY WHAT SYSTEM YOU WANT. (saying you want affordable health caer is not expressing which "system" you want).

    Mask: "And then tell us why the GOP Congress with a GOP White House didn't attempt it from 2003- 2006?"

    --why would the GOP would support universal health care?

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 12:28pm

88. The bizarre Democrat reaction to their own constituents -- the ones they invited to Congressional town hall meetings -- morphed yesterday from the realm of the strange into the far reaches of the Twilight Zone. Average, everyday Americans are showing up at Democrat Congressional town hall events across the country to voice their frustration with the far left liberal agenda being stampeded through Congress by the Democrat majority.

    Mostly comprised of seniors and veterans, these large crowds at the town hall meetings are actually reading the healthcare bill and asking the tough questions. Democrats are stunned that these Americans are angry about being lied to about the government takeover of healthcare.

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 12:12pm

    Everyday Americans? You mean the few brainwashed "tea-baggers" that are being bussed in and financed by the likes of Dick Army (how apropo). A ("Dick Army"). LOL.

    Some things are just too perfect. If you know what I mean.

    These puglets would love the country to believe that this is a "grassroots movement". Nothing could be farther from the truth. These are the modern version of the brownshirts of the 1930's Nazi movement to put down, shout down and disrupt a Socialist government that would eventually come to power after the people of Germany finally woke up.

    It never ceases to amaze me how history repeats itself. And also never ceases to amaze me that some people swallow the lies again!

    That exactly why these miscreants oppose education.. Keep the people stupid so we can fool them again.

    We won't fall for this bullshit again.

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 12:28pm

89. According to "urmgyro", everyone is withholding important information.

    If this is the sort of human resources that the wingnut right has to offer, we need not worry.

    Unless they start stalking you..

    Fortunately I have reserves of firearms to deal with that situation. Should it ever arise.

    The world of the creepy people..

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 12:10pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --I'm not part of the "wingnut right" neither am I part of the moderate right neither am I a registered Republican (or Democrat). This is an anonymous message board. It's not "stalking" to ask someone to answer a question. Mask does the same to many other people (antisocialist especially) what I'm doing to him. I'm trying to get an answer out of him; to get him on the record. He's dodging. You have the attitude of a defeated journalist chaoszen. If someone dodges, you don't give up asking. and you certainly don't let someone who tries to make you feel bad for asking (like, I don't know, calling you a "stalker") prevent you from trying to get an answer.

    but nice attempt at trying to pin me in a political position I don't hold and then attempting a "character assasination" by using "creepy" and "stalker."

    but if you really want to "stick to your guns" on that position then whenever you see Mask make more than one post directed at any one person trying to get him/her to make a bet or make a prediction I'm sure you'll be calling him "creepy" and a "stalker" too.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 12:37pm

90. You'd be right chaoszen, if you weren't so wrong.

    On your education comment you are ony correct when you identify the political character of the NEA. Overwhelmingly Democratic and liberal. Surely you aren't foolish enough to contest that fact. It is the left attempting to "dumb down" America. How else could you get people to accept collectivism?!

    Secondly, are you aware that the NAZI's were and are actually socialists? In fact Nazi's would be arguing for state control of all medical practices, not against.

    What is clear to me is the left is going insane seeing their best practices used in any way against them. What makes it more interesting is Code Pink, ACORN, International ANSWER, et al, never seemed to bother them and right wing observations of these agitators were only met with scorn from the left.

    Hows that tasting right now? ;-)

    Posted by freiheit1 at 08/06/2009 @ 12:48pm

91. Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 12:37pm

    You have your head stuffed so far up Anti's ass that you can't hear anything past the excrement. The truth will never sink in until you wash the shit out of your ears.

    Is Anti your Dad or Uncle or something? If so, you need to break away and learn to think for yourself.

    I'm sorry that I lack the ability to be more understanding if this is the case. I have little patience nowadays.

    I'm working on that.

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 12:58pm

92. Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 12:58pm

    Believe me, we know how you feel chaoszen when you say you have little patience nowadays.

    I mean after 8 years of watching biased attacks on Bush, we know what unfairness looks like. I mean even your koolaid marinaded, che-teeshirt wearing, Obama supporter has to agree that the situation in Afghanistan today would be covered well above the fold if a Republican were in the White House. Oh, and let's not even go to the economy. I'm surprised there isn't a $2B government program giving out rose colored glasses to all americans making under $250k a year. A growing constiuency by the way, not that the democrats are running the show.

    I am fascinated at the left's reaction to the tactics they minted since 9/11 being used against them.

    It is indignant arrogance. A left wing virtue.

    Posted by freiheit1 at 08/06/2009 @ 1:08pm

93. I'm getting a kick out of the fact that after the Obamanation and Demoncrats blatantly LIED about everything during the election process in 2006 and 2008 the American public is finally waking up and dumping on them and will just plain dump them in 2010 and 2012!

    You can't buy the overt reactions of working, retired, and veterens who were "duped" by the LIES and gross misrepresentations of the Demoncrat party.

    You can't buy the rage of 9,000,000 unemployed ordinary Americans passed over by the Demoncrats who rewarded Union supporters, Banks, and Wallstreet with over a TRILLON dollars in bailouts and POLITICAL PAYOFFS!

    You can't buy the miscreant authoritarian elitism of Pelose DISENFRANCHISING the republican representative of 48% of the American voters by SHUTTING them out of representing these voters by overturning House Rules in place for 200 years!

    It is all golden!

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 1:09pm

94. Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 12:37pm

    You have your head stuffed so far up Anti's ass that you can't hear anything past the excrement. The truth will never sink in until you wash the shit out of your ears.

    Is Anti your Dad or Uncle or something? If so, you need to break away and learn to think for yourself.

    I'm sorry that I lack the ability to be more understanding if this is the case. I have little patience nowadays.

    I'm working on that.

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 12:58pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --you clearly haven't been a part of this "community" for very long. Antisocialist (who used to call himself lvliberty1, loveliberty, and probably some other handles I now foret) is the person on The Nation that I've had the most arguments/debates with BY FAR. especially when it comes to religion...

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 1:16pm

95. Secondly, are you aware that the NAZI's were and are actually socialists? Posted by freiheit1 at 08/06/2009 @ 12:48pm |

    I had a belly laugh on that one. Thanks. Does me good.

    Where do you get this stuff? That is nothing but an overused fundamental of neo-conservative rhetoric. It is old as the hills and has it's roots in McCarthyism.

    The Nazi party co-opted the word "Socialism". It was used by Hitler in order to have an appeal to the working class in Germany. Hitler really had no use for the a real "Democratic Socialist" society. Hitler was a Fascist and used these things to sway the German working class. Sound Familiar?

    The name "National Socialist German Workers Party", was a ruse used to fool the German people into adopting "Totalitarian Fascism". It was a trick. And oddly enough still seems to have some traction.

    My problem is, I make the mistake of thinking that most educated people know this stuff.

    Apparently not.. Does anyone actually read anymore?

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 1:19pm

96. --you clearly haven't been a part of this "community" for very long. Antisocialist (who used to call himself lvliberty1, loveliberty, and probably some other handles I now foret) is the person on The Nation that I've had the most arguments/debates with BY FAR. especially when it comes to religion...

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 1:16pm

    I have been part of this ongoing debate for quite some time. And if you know so much about Larry and his various incarnations, and have participated in debates/arguments with him over the eons you suggest.

    Then why is your head planted so firmly up his ass?

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 1:25pm

97. Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 1:16pm

    I have been part of this ongoing debate for quite some time. And if you know so much about Larry and his various incarnations, and have participated in debates/arguments with him over the eons you suggest.

    Then why is your head planted so firmly up his ass?

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 1:25pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --you mean why am I trying to get Mask to answer a question the same way he tries to get other people to (with larry being his most frequent target)?

    --or you can just call it something pejorative like "plainting my head up his ass" if that makes you feel good!

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 1:35pm

98. I am fascinated at the left's reaction to the tactics they minted since 9/11 being used against them.

    It is indignant arrogance. A left wing virtue.

    Posted by freiheit1 at 08/06/2009 @ 1:08pm

    I hope you realize that a couple of your posts were intially somewhat cogent. Although terribly flawed.

    But after I post a response, (which I am loathe to do), it seems that not only your posts, but the posts of the others of your kind disintegrate into incomprehensible blather.

    I must be doing my job. Thanks for the verification.

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 1:40pm

99. I must leave soon. I actually have a real job. Delivering the damn mail.

    I need to get my rest.

    I hope someone can take up the mantle.

    Good night all.

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 1:43pm

100. The name "National Socialist German Workers Party", was a ruse used to fool the German people into adopting "Totalitarian Fascism". It was a trick. And oddly enough still seems to have some traction

     Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 1:19pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     Ohhhh....kinda like the party that calls themselves democrats but they are really morphing from "socialist" to marxist!( I just call them Demoncrats to be specific)

     Posted by BigPasture at 08/06/2009 @ 1:47pm

101. chaoszen--you have a real job besides calling people "stalkers" or "creepy" or saying they stick their "heads up other people's asses"--all when they're simply trying to get an answer to a question (and not even from you)?

     ;)

     Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 1:47pm

102. "I don't have a solution on how to get that done."----Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 12:28pm

     Yet you demand one from me?....hmmmm

     "Antisocialist (who used to call himself lvliberty1, loveliberty, and probably some other handles I now foret) is the person on The Nation that I've had the most arguments/debates with BY FAR. "----Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 1:16pm

     Almost about to beat that record.....Sorry, Larry...better luck next time. LOL

     Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 1:51pm

103. Have a great evening chaoszen!

     Thanks for the banter.

     Posted by freiheit1 at 08/06/2009 @ 2:02pm

104. Then why is your head planted so firmly up his ass?

     Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 1:25pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     p.s.--I probably should have mentioned this part before: antisocialist, as should be clear, is against even medicare as a program; i'm for, as I already mentioned, universal health care.

     so how's it that that I have my head stuck up his ass?

     Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 2:03pm

105. "I don't have a solution on how to get that done."----Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 12:28pm

     Yet you demand one from me?....hmmmm

     Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 1:51pm

     --maybe you actually HAVE been confused on what I've been asking you. i'm not asking you to assess what you think is the best way to deal with the current situation in this country going forward.

     What I've been asking all along (and again now) is what system do you think should be in place re: health care? ignore the politics of the current situation in the u.s. i'm talking about simply what system would you have in place if you were in total control? a totally free market w/ no gov't involvement? universal, gov't run, completely tax-subsidized health care? something in between?

     IF YOU ANSWER THIS QUESTION I'LL STOP ASKING IT.

     -------------------------------------------------------

     "Antisocialist (who used to call himself lvliberty1, loveliberty, and probably some other handles I now foret) is the person on The Nation that I've had the most arguments/debates with BY FAR. "----Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 1:16pm

     Almost about to beat that record.....Sorry, Larry...better luck next time. LOL---posted by Mask

     --the key difference, which you omit, is that I'm not debating with you right now. I'm asking you to answer a question. that's all.

     Posted by urmygyro at 08/06/2009 @ 2:15pm

106. Posted by Mask at 08/06/2009 @ 09:48am

     I've never said I was against reforms that make people's daily lives better. It was Reds like me who pushed for the 8-hour day, unemployment insurance and rural electrification, among other things, long before the government implemented them. So I'm not automatically against "real reform" of the health care system short of Single Payer or the Public Option, I'm just not sure what that would be. But by following your KIND of tactics, Obama and the Dems in Congress are laying the basis for a bill that includes no real reform, including the Public Option, that will benefit anyone but the insurance companies.

     And now you've backed away from "real reform" and are describing the likely changes as "modest" and "trimming the edges" which sound, to me at least, as less than "real reform."

     Posted by cka2nd at 08/06/2009 @ 2:54pm

107. Thanks for being brave enough to say this: I got an e-mail from People for the American Way the other day asking me to sign a petition demanding that Congress do something (they didn't say what) to stop these lunatics from disrupting town meetings. I didn't sign but, instead, sent an e-mail back to PFAW asking them what exactly they think Congress should do about it. I might also have suggested that, in formulating a strategy, they first contemplate the name of their own organization.

     Posted by EEtelson at 08/06/2009 @ 3:05pm

108. Posted by freiheit1 at 08/06/2009 @ 12:16pm

     OK, I started the name-calling so I deserved that. Sorry.

     And although I don't know who started using the term teabaggers to refer to the Tea Party protesters, I will freely admit that it is being used to diminish them by associating them with the sexual practice of the same name. However, I would note that I'm pretty sure I have never used the term myself because it is a cheap shot. I object to the term Demoncrat for the same reason, though I haven't voted for one in 25 years.

     But, give me a break on no "true" conservative would engage in the list of kinky or illegal sexual activities listed. That just doesn't pass the test of evidence, unless you are proposing to purge folks like Senators Craig and Ensign from the conservative movement after the fact, which would just be dishonest.

     Posted by cka2nd at 08/06/2009 @ 3:08pm

109. Actually, I've read the infamous memo of best practices for "mobs" disrupting congressional town halls; frankly, I wouldn't have batted an eye at it if a few words here and there had been changed and it had come from a leftist group. Anyone who thinks these same tactics have not historically been used by the left, or are not effective in getting press and swaying Congress, needs to get out more.

     All we can really say about this is that the big-money right-wing PR machine has yet again learned and co-opted the legitimate tactics of popular movements once again. This does not make their cause right, but I don't think we should waste time arguing whether it's a legitimate tactic to use (or pretend to be "shocked" that someone would actually be disruptive or disrespectful, etc.).

     One question worth asking: Why haven't pro-health reform groups been doing the same stuff for the last six months? Health reform would be in a much better place if we had.

     Posted by rsmith@qualcomm.com at 08/06/2009 @ 3:28pm

110. But, give me a break on no "true" conservative would engage in the list of kinky or illegal sexual activities listed. That just doesn't pass the test of evidence, unless you are proposing to purge folks like Senators Craig and Ensign from the conservative movement after the fact, which would just be dishonest.

     Posted by cka2nd at 08/06/2009 @ 3:08pm

     I absolutely get what you're saying there ck. But here's my take. No true non-drinker drinks. They can say they don't drink. Even worse, they can intimidate others to be non-drinkers, but they themselves are not "true" non-drinkers if they drink. They are dishonest liars. I have no respect for those people. Through their behavior, Craig and Ensign and the countless other professed conservatives have proven themselves untrue. Have proven themselves human and prone to sin (just like me!). But for every one of them there are a million other americans who truely enjoy and flourish with conservative values. And for them 'teabagging' isn't part of the lexicon.

     Posted by freiheit1 at 08/06/2009 @ 4:04pm

111. Posted by freiheit1 at 08/06/2009 @ 4:04pm

     Nonetheless, politically speaking, Craig, Ensign and Co. remain conservative. Just like all of those married monogomous liberals who don't teabag remain liberal even though they live lives that largely conform to what you call conservative values. Sinning does not change a human being to a non-human being, or make them an "untrue" human. Nor does it change a conservative to a liberal if he or she continues to toe the conservative line politically. A hypocrite, sure but not a liberal or, in my opinion, a non-conservative.

     OK, time to jump threads!

     Posted by cka2nd at 08/06/2009 @ 4:18pm

112. Yep, I think we agree hypocrisy is distinctly non-partisan. See you on another thread.

     Posted by freiheit1 at 08/06/2009 @ 5:42pm

113. I will definitely look for a clip of your appearance on Maddow last night talking about this. One of my immediate thoughts upon reading your piece is I wonder what Rachel said, and did she bring up that she was one of those ACT-UP activists, though I think she participated in the bay area, and not NY. She likely did. I remember the brilliant interview she did with Al Gore where among other things she talked to him about the AIDS activists and their role into shaming him during the Clinton Admin and his run for president into changing their AIDS policies. And then at the very end, she told Al that she was one of the folks who famously disrupted an event he was speaking at. His face was *priceless*.

     Posted by sarah_dc at 08/07/2009 @ 06:42am

114. I guess Jefferson will soon be singing the praises of state healthcare for the Demoncrats from inside experience!!! Watch for his prison post coming to the nation soon!

     Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 5:28pm Rio,

     This is interesting to say the least. Whenever a republican is caught...oh let's say propositioning a police officer in the mens rooms at an airport, or hitting on page boys, or having affairs outside of their marriages, you assholes can't be heard for anything. But, this asshole Jefferson comes along and you act like all of the democrats are Jefferson.

     The difference between you and most of us on the left side is that we really don't like dishonest leaders on either side of the isle. I hope Jefferson has a very rough time in his prison sentence. Public officials have the trust of the public and that is why they were elected. When they lie to the public (look at what your party does on a daily basis about the healthcare issue) they should be held to account.

     You bitch about public healthcare, but I noticed you rethug morons don't want anyone to know who's paying for these tea party groups. Try looking at ex-rethug officials who now run lobby groups and and the health care industry for starters.

     The words hypocrit and republican and liar are all synonymous.

     Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/07/2009 @ 06:56am

115. I don't recall activists on our side doing anything close to what these republic thugs have been doing to disrupt the townhall meetings.

     Posted by tbsa at 08/07/2009 @ 10:36am

116. "these are the tactics of a small, motivated, enraged and engaged minority."

     You must not be aware of the current polls on healthcare reform.

     Posted by mattb at 08/11/2009 @ 2:44pm

117. Wrong. What you see are people who don't like what you stand for and they are standing up effectively.

     Posted by apoorspic at 08/11/2009 @ 9:11pm