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RedditI come from a family of organizers (my dad and my brother), so I'm intimately familiar with just how much work good organizing is. I also have a lot of guilt about the fact I'm not one. As hard as writing can sometimes be, it's orders of magnitudes easier (not to mention confers a lot more recognition and praise) than the unglamorous job of calling through lists, finding suitable meeting places, negotiating personalities, motivating busy and harried volunteers, etc...
For that reason, I'm always reluctant to use my writing platform to urge other people to organize. It feels cheap and easy. But with that disclaimed out of the way, I have to echo what Josh Marshall says here.
If you want health care, then do something about it. We are now in the middle of a fight. Fights are good. Democracy is fundamentally about the non-violent resolution of conflict, and we've got conflict. There is a small but very mobilized constituency of people and interests that want to kill health care reform. They have the advantage of being on the attack, or tearing down and criticizing and expressing their outrage. The job of advocates of reform is trickier, but unless there is a mobilization and concerted organized attempt to push elected representatives in a progressive direction they will succumb to the braying and bullying of tea-baggers. Find out if your congressman is having a town hall, and go. Find others to go with you. Let them know you will punish them if they don't support real reform. Call their offices. Show up at their offices.
It's on.
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"There is a small but very mobilized constituency of people and interests that want to kill health care reform"
No, we want reform...we just dont want to have govt run it or a single payer program that has problrems like Canada and England.
We actually want a debate BEFORE the vote on a plan and we actualy want our congresman to READ the damn thing...plenty of time to debate and vote AFTER we the people discuss...
Posted by YourJomamma at 08/04/2009 @ 09:12am
HAYES: "I'm always reluctant to use my writing platform to urge other people to organize. It feels cheap and easy."
Well, you still need a bit more `seasoning'.....next thing you know, that is, "urge other people to organize" will become your bread and butter.
Relax, you're being tutored by Ms. KvH and Co.!
Don't ever forget the rainbow at the end of that learning curve......"cheap and easy" pay for calling up filed `organizing' articles, change a few paragraphs and presto, take the rest of the day off!
Posted by Happy at 08/04/2009 @ 09:23am
If you would like to help pressure Congress to pass single payer health care with your vote please join our non-partisan voting bloc at: http://www.votingbloc.org/Health_Bloc.php
Posted by pontesisto at 08/04/2009 @ 09:38am
" ... They have the advantage of being on the attack, or tearing down and criticizing and expressing their outrage ..." --- HAYES
"They" - meaning the insurance and pharmaceutical executives and lobbyists, as well as their wholly-owned assets holding national offices - have the advantages of huge amounts of easily available money, direct connections to mass media and political power, and being a comparitively small number of figures with closely-aligned interests. This is what matters. Grassroots reform activists doing all the organizing, etc., have little money, fewer connections, and are a more broadly distributed, larger group of people who may have very different interests.
The point being, its important to paint a detailed picture for readers whom you wish to organize.
Posted by syfriendly at 08/04/2009 @ 09:53am
WHATEVER passes, unless John Boehner and Eric Cantor actually get to write the bill themselves alone...
HAPP and Maasch will call "socialism".
Guarenteed.
Posted by Mask at 08/04/2009 @ 11:02am
I've heard it said that the Constitution does not guarantee Americans health care. Article 1, section 8 states, among other things, "Congress shall have the power to provide for the common defence and the general welfare of the United States." Are not viruses or bacteria things to be defended against? Is not our health as a nation linked to our general welfare? It seems to me that it's quite arguable that the Constitution does guarantee health care in Article 1.
Posted by DavidDurham at 08/04/2009 @ 11:09am
If you want to go to a townhall to show your support for single payer or public option, I found this list of town halls that the tea baggers are targetting for their harrassment techniques. I'm going to go to the two that are in my area.
http://teapartypatriots.org/TownHalls.aspx
Posted by Debster52 at 08/04/2009 @ 12:15pm
Are not viruses or bacteria things to be defended against? Is not our health as a nation linked to our general welfare? It seems to me that it's quite arguable that the Constitution does guarantee health care in Article 1.
Posted by DavidDurham at 08/04/2009 @ 11:09am
No, No, No. is not a drunk driver something to be defended against? it seems quite arguable under this line of reasoning that the Federal govt must take steps to guarantee my right not to be hit by a drunk driver.
Why isn't Congress taking immediate action on this?
One person is killed every half-hour due to drunk driving
Each year approximately 16,000 are killed in alcohol related crashes
Alcohol is a factor in almost half of all traffic fatalities
Every other minute a person is seriously injured in an alcohol related crash
This is a crisis! We must have govt take action to stop this madness. I want a govt program to stop drunk drivers before they can injur or kill my family or me.
Posted by antisocialist at 08/04/2009 @ 12:16pm
Posted by antisocialist at 08/04/2009 @ 12:16pm
Anti, there are gvt programs to reduce drunk driving. Check points, specual police units, increased punishment for drunk drivers, etc.
Just because these are State's rules, does not prohibit the Feds from interacting. They don't because its not needed. Speeding is actually responsible for more deaths than alcohol (not mutally exclusive), and has the federal government taking action against speeding? From 1973 to 1995 there was a federal speed limit, it was repealed but not because it was unconstituional.
Futhermore healthcare will not prevent deaths, just like laws to reduce drunk drivers don't prevent drunk driving.
You provided red herring of an argument, but it does not refute the statement that the healthcare could be covered under the general welfare statement in the constitution.
Posted by Extraneous at 08/04/2009 @ 12:42pm
Posted by Debster52 at 08/04/2009 @ 12:15pm
LOL...they'd probably never think that somebody would use their own website against them!
Posted by Mask at 08/04/2009 @ 12:53pm
It should by now be obvious there is not the faintest possibility any genuine healthcare reform will be enacted in the United States -- not now, not ever -- and no amount of "organizing" can possibly change that long-ago-set-in-cement reality.
The hideous truth is that the U.S. has been reduced a one-party despotism in which Democrats and Republicans are merely separate cliques within a monolithic plutocracy.
U.S. democracy is therefore both scam and sham. Government and governance no longer serve any purpose save the perpetuation of capitalism by any means possible -- absolute power for the ruling class, total subjugation for all the rest of us.
The compulsory health insurance proposal is a perfect example: even if accompanied by a package of meaningless regulations -- and we can be absolutely certain they will never be more than meaningless -- compulsory health insurance is nothing less than slavery.
It will forever enslave us to the Sultans of Sickness -- the prescription drug lords, insurance barons and other vampire capitalists who already profit so obscenely from our misfortunes.
Indeed, can anyone of reasonable intelligence doubt any longer that this is precisely what the ruling class intended from the very beginning?
As I said before: the sole purpose of the U.S. is the perpetuation of capitalism -- absolute power for the ruling class, total subjugation for all the rest of us. By any means imaginable: including the Big Lie of the Obama Presidency to bolster the even bigger Big Lie of U.S. democracy.
And until we awaken to this terrible truth, all our organizing efforts will continue to fail.
Posted by lorenbliss at 08/04/2009 @ 1:28pm
Fights are good. Democracy is fundamentally about the non-violent resolution of conflict, and we've got conflict. If We Want Health Care We Have to Fight For It posted by Christopher Hayes on 08/04/2009 @ 08:55am
Democracy is fundamentally about the non-violent resolution of conflict?
Since when? Ghandi never managed it during the Indian Independence movement, it certainly was not non-violent. Estimates of loss of life vary from several hundred thousand to a million. The violence and death was just mostly one sided.
There has never been a revolutionary conflict that was not non-violent. And there never will be. Blood must be spilt and sacrifice must be made before any significant change can occur.
Our country has been brought to ruin and people have already died. It is time to hit the streets and demand change. To demand an end to fascism and totalitarian oligarchical rule. It is time to take back our Democracy.
Many may die in the process. But if we are not willing to sacrifice, in order to save this country and our Constitution then we don't deserve it anyway.
Viva La Revolucion!
Posted by chaoszen at 08/04/2009 @ 1:33pm
Scratch the non in front of violent... My bad..
Posted by chaoszen at 08/04/2009 @ 1:35pm
Posted by Debster52 at 08/04/2009 @ 12:15pm
LOL...they'd probably never think that somebody would use their own website against them!
Posted by Mask at 08/04/2009 @ 12:53pm
You're dumber than Debster52 if you think there is anything negative on that website.
Why don't you tell us what is wrong with these principles from their website?
<As a matter of principle, The Tea Party Patriots are firmly committed to supporting the fight for genuine access to affordable, quality healthcare for every American. The time has come to create a balanced, common sense approach that will guarantee that Americans receive the care they deserve and which will still protect the sacred doctor-patient relationship. We will oppose any system run by politicians or bureaucrats granted the right to deny citizens and physicians the treatments they believe are in a patient's best interest. And we demand that the government clean its house of billions of waste, fraud and abuse to fund the necessary changes.>
http://teapartypatriots.org/TPLM03.pdf
Posted by antisocialist at 08/04/2009 @ 1:37pm
Many may die in the process. But if we are not willing to sacrifice, in order to save this country and our Constitution then we don't deserve it anyway.
Viva La Revolucion!
Posted by chaoszen at 08/04/2009 @ 1:33pm
From your buddy Bob Avakian Chairman of the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP)
<In this struggle for revolutionary change, the revolutionary people and those who lead them will be confronted by the violent repressive force of the machinery of the state which embodies and enforces the existing system of exploitation and oppression; and in order for the revolutionary struggle to succeed, it will need to meet and defeat that violent repressive force of the old, exploitative and oppressive order.>
http://revcom.us/a/055/crucialpoints.html
Posted by antisocialist at 08/04/2009 @ 1:55pm
Posted by antisocialist at 08/04/2009 @ 1:37pm
Well, 1. Didn't say there was "anything negative" on that website...neither did Debster52.
She merely noted using their own schedule for blasting townhalls...against them by mounting a counter-offensive. Surely an old military "expert" such as yourself can see the Sun Tzu wisdom in that???
2. Their pap of "We want it too"...is just that. Pap.
No specifics, no details, no plan except "cut waste, fraud, and abuse" which has been the simplistic mantra since RR in 1980.
If they DID want health care reform...they'd have pushed it from 2003-2006, when their friends controlled Congress and the White House. Instead they concentrated on trying to put Social Security in the Stock Market and doing "remote viewing" IQ tests on Terri Schiavo.
Posted by Mask at 08/04/2009 @ 2:27pm
"Why don't you tell us what is wrong with these principles from their website? "
Maybe because the "tea-party patriots" are the first to vote in people who work for corporate interests, not theirs.
There is NOTHING in ANY single-payer system that gets in the way of the Doctor-Patient relationship.
That ridiculous assumption is solely a product of the insane ravings of the loony-far-right, not based in any reality.
However, in the USAmerican system of employer based insurance, corporate bureaucrats CONSTANTLY get in between a doctor and her/his patients.
"We will oppose any system...bureaucrats granted the right to deny citizens and physicians the treatments they believe are in a patient's best interest. "
And all the boys and girls you tea-baggers vote for are paid agents of the insurance companies hired to perpetuate their "bureaucrats granted the right to deny citizens and physicians the treatments they believe are in a patient's best interest. "
The "tea-party-patriots" are working against their own best interests and don't even recognize it...
Posted by chetdude at 08/04/2009 @ 2:29pm
Ha ha! Why don't you just have Obama "mobilize" the ACORN troops, all the while funding them with our tax dollars? Hey, does the GOP have a version of ACORN? If so, are they funded with taxpayer funds? If not, why?
Posted by barry25 at 08/04/2009 @ 2:44pm
CH wrote: "Find out if your congressman is having a town hall, and go."
--what if your district is represented by a congresswoman?
"find others to go with you. Let them know you will punish them if they don't support real reform."
--pronoun confusion alert. in the second sentence surely by "them" you mean congress and by "punish" you mean mean voting against them next election if they don't vote for single-payer option, but the sentences can be validly read to mean you'll punish your friends if they don't go with you to the town hall.
writing can be cheap chris--especially in your hands.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/04/2009 @ 2:53pm
Americans who have fallen for the great myth that only private industry can deliver products and services effectively. Americans spend almost twice the amount per capita than Canadians do…what's more is EVERYONE has coverage!! Because businesses aren't burdened with the task of administering health care benefits it frees them to take care of the thing they do best. As for choice of Doctor or hospital we have that choice. I remember several years ago travelling in Ephrata, PA. I asked the young 20 something waitress what she wanted to do with her life. She replied her ambition was to find a job that provided Health coverage. I thought what a sad state of affairs where a young woman's ambitions are driven by health care. Until America starts looking at Health Care not as a business but a human right nothing will change. The media plutocracy and rapacious insurance companies will continue to fight this tooth and nail and as long as your Congress can be lead by the nose with bags full of cash I fear your rights will languish along with the entire health of your nation. Good luck my friends the world's economic success hinges on it as well.
Posted by ronmcAllister at 08/04/2009 @ 3:03pm
And all the boys and girls you tea-baggers vote for are paid agents of the insurance companies hired to perpetuate their "bureaucrats granted the right to deny citizens and physicians the treatments they believe are in a patient's best interest. "
The "tea-party-patriots" are working against their own best interests and don't even recognize it...
Posted by chetdude at 08/04/2009 @ 2:29pm
Are you that beholden to a socialist system that you cannot see how ludicrous your views are?
There is no right to healthcare. It is a service. It may be an essential service in the view of many Americans, but it is only a service.
I am going to fight against this attempt to level a huge tax increase against me and force me into this system.
I don't have healthcare, haven't had it, raised my kids without it.
If you people get your way, I am looking at paying at least $5000 a year extra in taxes because I will be forced by law to participate in this system.
Small businesses will be driven into bankruptcy. The bills all say that if they don't provide healthcare for their employees, they will be penalized 7% of earnings.
That is a marxist totalitarian takeover of our nation. And we are going to fight against you socialists as you try and destroy this country.
We conservatives are mad and we are rising up in anger and you aren't going to like it.
Posted by antisocialist at 08/04/2009 @ 3:27pm
To understand why working-class Teabaggers are so hopelessly ignorant they willingly serve the forces of oppression -- and to understand how the U.S. Left has been reduced to a pseudo-Left of equally idiotic service to the ruling class -- it is necessary to transcend our conditioned aversion to thinking and look objectively at what has been done to us as a people.
The ultimate triumph of capitalism -- the reduction of the United States to the de facto Fourth Reich (ever-more-tyrannical Christofascism at home, unabashedly Nazi-type imperialism abroad) -- was achieved through three parallel assaults on democratic process. These were: (1)-the total, top-to-bottom corruption of government at all levels by imposition of financial requirements that guarantee only the approved representatives of the ruling class can achieve public office; (2)-the removal, whether by assassination or scandal, of any politician or bureaucrat who effectively opposes ruling class dictates; (3)-the methodical manipulation of education and mass media to create and maintain a genuine Moron Nation in which the public is paralyzed by inescapable ignorance.
While these principles have been understood by tyrants since the beginning of human history, it was the advent of modern technology that enabled their fulfillment in the creation of absolute tyranny. Though Mussolini, Hitler and Franco clearly pioneered such efforts, it was only after World War II -- when the despotic genius of Nazi war criminals was hybridized with Big Business and its goon-squad military/industrial complex -- that the ruling class achieved effectively eternal (and therefore truly godlike) omnipotence.
And until we acknowledge the true dimensions of our prison, we will remain powerless to escape it.
Posted by lorenbliss at 08/04/2009 @ 4:04pm
The godlike quality of Big Business is not merely linguistic convention. The seeds of capitalism -- and more to the point the seeds of capitalism's logical and therefore inevitable evolution to fascism -- are implicit in the doctrines spelled out in Genesis: the ever-vengeful vampire-god who consumes Nature as a parasite consumes its host and hates women for giving Nature a human voice; the übermenschen of "god's select" and the üntermenschen of "the damned"; the ultimate tyranny of eternal damnation: "I am the lord thy Capitalist/thou shalt have no liberty ever again."
But the pivotal genius of the capitalist ruling class was its decision to educate the entire population of the United States in the malevolent ethos that was once exclusive to the plutocracy itself: infinite greed as ultimate virtue -- and therefore limitless selfishness as the apex of virtuousness. The resultant nation of shrunken-minded Ayn Rands could not possibly achieve solidarity, much less genuine revolution.
Hence not just Moron Nation but its hopelessly scrambled imbecility: thuggish Teabaggers who shout slogans of liberty as they march like lockstep stormtroopers to defend and intensify oppression; self-proclaimed "progressives" with such irremediably bourgeois hearts they reflexively despise those of us who are part of organized labor; the great pathetic mass already so oppressed they long ago relinquished all response save abject submissiveness and -- like the plebeians of ancient Rome -- now try desperately to fill their hollow lives with panem et circenses: the fatbread of obesity and titillations by Michael Jackson and Britney Spears.
Such is the realm in which we live.
To change it, we must first acknowledge what it is.
Posted by lorenbliss at 08/04/2009 @ 4:45pm
Sorry, but, the "time to fight for health care reform" is passed...as you can see from the comments, the American idiots have gotten their lies in, and, Obama and the Dems refused to stand for single payer like every civilied nation on earth has, making it more difficult for progressives to support him. What youre peddling now is extremely hard to defend , considering the wealth of the industry and the number of people suffering and dying every year.
It the Dems had stuck to what they KNEW was the right thing to do, they would have had a chance. House Senate, presidency and you still cant pass it. In 2003, Obama said that that was what Dems needed to pass natl health care---what came between them and the truth was millions of dollars.Shame.
Posted by kdelphi95 at 08/04/2009 @ 5:20pm
It is time to hit the streets and demand change. To demand an end to fascism and totalitarian oligarchical rule. It is time to take back our Democracy.
Many may die in the process. But if we are not willing to sacrifice, in order to save this country and our Constitution then we don't deserve it anyway.
Viva La Revolucion!
Posted by chaoszen at 08/04/2009 @ 1:33pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--this may be inconvenient to your little tirade: but there's no doubt in my mind you'll be anonymously posting comments under The Nation's blogs for years and years to come.
the only "revolution" you remotely have a chance of accomplishing is if you finally give up your internet connection and start living with real people. but we both know that ain't happenin'
Posted by urmygyro at 08/04/2009 @ 6:08pm
I have encouraged both my senators, Republicans, to vote for the public option. I will show up at their town hall meetings and shout as loud as the hired thugs that try to disrupt the meetings in favor of the gluttons on Wall Street, K street. I didn't vote for these thugs and I want them, to ask their question, sit down, shut up and listen to the answers. I believe in free speech, including that of the senators and congress people that have the courage to stand up on stage and answer idiotic questions from a script. I have used the health care extensively and I am convinced more than ever that health care for profit is an oxymoron. Health care for profit works only if you deny people as much service as possible and charge as much as possible for minimal service. We are going to turn our backs on 50 million Americans, because we have this false idiocy that the free market works for every thing. We tried the free market in Iraq with KBR and Halliburton. That worked fine and how about a fire dept. for profit? How about a private market court system and police system? If I hear another crazy yell at a Senator in a shout down I'm going to have a tantrum.
Posted by julien38 at 08/04/2009 @ 7:14pm
And the so called free market dummies don't seem to know that we are borrowing trillions from the Chinese, a communist country, and nationally controlled economy, to pay for the great war in Iraq and we are going to turn our backs on our own citizens for gluttony and greed. Where is the tipping point, when do we become a third world country?
Posted by julien38 at 08/04/2009 @ 7:27pm
And the so called free market dummies don't seem to know that we are borrowing trillions from the Chinese, a communist country, and nationally controlled economy, to pay for the great war in Iraq and we are going to turn our backs on our own citizens for gluttony and greed. Where is the tipping point, when do we become a third world country?
Posted by julien38 at 08/04/2009 @ 7:27pm
Nonsense. The Comptroller General of the US (a non partisan position) has said that the cost of the war is having no real effect on our debt.
We will become a 3rd world country if we pursue this unconstitutional nightmare of sgl payer.
I'm not going to be forced by the govt to pay into this system and have my taxes raised $5000 per year of more. I'll fight people like you with my last breath against this totalitarianism
Posted by antisocialist at 08/04/2009 @ 7:51pm
Julien38 asks, "...when do we become a third world country?"
The hideous truth is that we became a Third World country the day President John Fitzgerald Kennedy was assassinated: 22 November 1963, which a few truthful historians already recognize as the end of functional U.S. democracy. The additional murders -- Malcolm X, Martin Luther King Jr., Sen. Robert F. Kennedy, Fred Hampton, the kids slain or forever crippled at Kent State and Jackson State (and yes too quite possibly Sen. Paul Wellstone four decades later) -- merely cemented the boulder across the mouth of our tomb.
Posted by lorenbliss at 08/04/2009 @ 7:51pm
Posted by lorenbliss at 08/04/2009 @ 7:51pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I'm 71 years old and remember those moments all to vividly. For my two adult children, I hope you are wrong but I'm afraid you are correct. Any ideas for a turn around. Are the kids organizing intelligent democracy meet ups? I'm presently watching severely limited people yelling nonsense and oxymoronic logic at a senator without giving him a moment to answer. Thanks to Rachel Maddow and Keith Olbermann.
Posted by julien38 at 08/04/2009 @ 8:33pm
And thanks for showing up on the Maddow show Hayes.
Posted by julien38 at 08/04/2009 @ 8:36pm
Posted by antisocialist at 08/04/2009 @ 12:16pm | ignore this person | warn this person
The government did take action; they mandated seat belts, which the industry in question fought tooth and nail as being un-American and "socialist," just like the insurance industry is doing today.
It is every American's god-given right to drive their automobile without seat belts.
Seat belts create an undue burden for industry.
Who wants to take away the freedom of driving by strapping yourself into a seat? Only socialists do!
Ask the people in Canada or Europe if they are any less free than we are because of their government run health care systems. Just ask. Anyone! JUST ASK!
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 08/04/2009 @ 10:16pm
I'll fight people like you with my last breath against this totalitarianism
Posted by antisocialist at 08/04/2009 @ 7:51pm | ignore this person | warn this person
"From hell's heart, I stab at thee. For Hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee. To the last, I will grapple with thee."
Anti doesn't like socialism, but he can quote Khan....a noted totalitarian....
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 08/04/2009 @ 10:25pm
Yourjomamma says we don't want a system like Canada or England. Well I do! As a citizen of both countries with US residence I do not enjoy the benefits of the Canadian Health Care system but my Canadian family do and I can assure all that they will fight to defend it. Here in the US we are subjected to a propaganda that feeds us lies, lies, and lies about socialized medicine of Canada usually spouted by the politicians who are hand in glove with the Insurance Lobby and the AMA. If we really want a system that provides health-care we can get it by making it a priority and challenging the incompetence of our elected officials. The more that Canadians hear of our horror stories the more that they say Thank God for a country with reason. Canada's system is 95% bullet proof but American poiticians feed us the 5% problematics. All Canadians with a brain in their heads, and that is most of them, are disgusted by the way the sick and the poor are treated in the US. Fight for socialized medicine and remove the artificial stigma that stooges are promoting. Do it now!
Posted by Bunts at 08/04/2009 @ 10:41pm
Posted by lorenbliss at 08/04/2009 @ 4:04pm | ignore this person | warn this person Posted by lorenbliss at 08/04/2009 @ 4:45pm | ignore this person | warn this person Posted by lorenbliss at 08/04/2009 @ 4:45pm | ignore this person | warn this person Posted by lorenbliss at 08/04/2009 @ 7:51pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Now that was truely some really funny stuff, I couldn't stop laughing long enough to type for a bit! Whose basement are you holed up in? Doesn't that tinfoil on the windows distort your conceptualization of time, and is sleep deprevation as serious a side effect as I've heard?.....now I really need to take a pee!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/04/2009 @ 10:44pm
Good article. However, you need to get rid of the sexist language and call your CongressWOMAN.
Posted by ktrig at 08/04/2009 @ 10:51pm
The Obamanation and Demoncrats are so laughable about soaking the rich, almost as funny as the leftwingnuts! Who do you think is going to pay for healthcare, YOU ARE! Yea, they WILL tax the middle class and lower class after lieing about NOT doing it!
Heaping more taxes on the wealthy to pay for entitlement programs overlooks one inconvenient fact: The top 1 percent of U.S. wage earners already pay more taxes than the entire bottom 95 percent, a Tax Foundation study reports.
The 1.4 million taxpayers in the top 1 percent pay about $450 billion in taxes annually, the study shows. That compares to $439 billion in taxes that the government collects each year from the 134 million persons in the bottom 95 percent.
The minimum annual income to reach the top 1 percent: About $410,000.
The Foundation reports that for the third consecutive year, 2007 set a record for the total tax receipts from the top 1 percent of U.S. wage earners. The study is based on 2007 data because that's the most recent year that the IRS has reported on.
The progressive tilt of the U.S. tax system continues further down the economic pyramid. The top 25 percent of wage earners, for example, accounted for 68.7 percent of the nation's income -- yet paid 86.6 percent of federal income taxes.
Why then does the myth persist that the U.S. tax system favors the rich? Ask the Obama administration.
Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 06:05am
Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 06:05am
Anybody wants a little more info on the Tax Foundation, go to
www.cbpp.org and search "Tax Foundation".
You'll find some very interesting articles on their "creative" methodology.
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 08:13am
Anti doesn't like socialism, but he can quote Khan....a noted totalitarian....
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 08/04/2009 @ 10:25pm
I don't know who Khan is and never quote him/her.
Posted by antisocialist at 08/05/2009 @ 09:57am
Posted by antisocialist at 08/05/2009 @ 09:57am
Actually, the original source is "Ahab" in "Moby Dick".
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 10:07am
"Socialism" arguments are a red herring. How do you feel about our "socialist" public schools and "socialist" public roads? And the term "socialized medicine" is so vague as to be meaningless.
Let's try sticking to the facts. Anecdotal horror stories aside (and there are plenty for any country and healthcare system you choose, including the U.S.), Canada has a higher life expectancy and lower infant mortality rate than the U.S., while spending far less of their GDP on healthcare. The only area where the U.S. is number one (or even in the top ten) is on how much we spend on healthcare, as measured per capita or as a percent of GDP.
With 46 million uninsured and 62% of personal bankruptcies caused by medical debts (of which 75% were insured when they got sick), the current system is clearly broken.
Posted by Nexus at 08/05/2009 @ 10:25am
Posted by antisocialist at 08/05/2009 @ 09:57am
Actually, the original source is "Ahab" in "Moby Dick".
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 10:07am
Original source for what? Any time I quote someone I list their name and a reference
Posted by antisocialist at 08/05/2009 @ 10:37am
The epitome of Fraud Waste and Abuse---Root that out and we can afford much more!
Summary: The Wall Street Journal reported that Richard Scott, "the former chief executive of HCA Inc," had formed the non-profit organization Conservatives for Patients' Rights as part of a "lobbying campaign to derail or modify" President Obama's health care proposals, but failed to note that Scott resigned from HCA in 1997 amid a federal investigation into the company's Medicare billing, physician recruiting, and home-care practices. HCA eventually pleaded guilty to fraud charges and paid approximately $1.7 billion in fines and penalties.
THURSDAY, JUNE 26, 2003; WWW.USDOJ.GOV; HCA Inc. (formerly known as Columbia/HCA and HCA - The Healthcare Company) LARGEST HEALTH CARE FRAUD CASE IN U.S. HISTORY SETTLED; HCA INVESTIGATION NETS RECORD TOTAL OF $1.7 BILLION Note: Hospital Corporation of America (HCA) was acquired by Columbia in 1994.
Who is Richard Scott? Who is Richard Rainwater? Who is Darla Moore?
Before GW Bush was affiliated with Richard Rainwater may I remind you-Richard Scott was the ex-partner of Richard Rainwater with Columbia Homecare Group.
Why does this matter? Because the wrath of Richard Scott's fraud just ended in December 2008 in the largest private financial fraud case in our country's history in 2002 when FBI raided the offices of National Century Financial Enterprises Dublin, Ohio, headquarters.
Guess where Columbia and many of the other publicly traded healthcare companies DUMPED their losing asset, Home healthcare? National Century Financial Enterprises
National Century Financial Enterprises: "This case is one of the largest corporate fraud investigations involving a privately held company headquartered in small town America," said Ass
Posted by sasha2008 at 08/05/2009 @ 10:57am
National Century Financial Enterprises: "This case is one of the largest corporate fraud investigations involving a privately held company headquartered in small town America," said Assistant Director Kenneth W. Kaiser of the FBI Criminal Investigative Division.
March 26, 2008; By Jodi Andes; THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH Nine other executives have been convicted or pleaded guilty in National Century's collapse. Only Poulsen and executive James Happ still await trial.
Only Poulsen and executive James Happ still await trial?
December 9, 2008. James K. Happ, 48, is charged with conspiracy, money-laundering conspiracy and three counts of wire fraud; the 11th National Century executive to be tried or admit guilt. , Also today, a former friend of Happ's testified that, while working at National Century, Happ boasted that he never could be charged with any fraud because he didn't sign anything.
December 18, 2008 - The ONE AND ONLY acquittal; James K Happ! By Jodi Andes THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH Prosecutors' case fell short, juror says National Century fraud case produces 1st acquittal ; The "not guilty" verdicts that came in federal court yesterday were not so much a vindication of the last National Century Financial Enterprises executive to stand trial, a juror said.
Instead, they were more a belief that federal prosecutors had not done their job, the juror said after he and his fellow jurors acquitted James K. Happ of five counts after 12 hours of deliberation. "He very well may have been guilty. A lot of us thought he was," said the juror who wouldn't give his name. "But if he was, you gotta have the evidence."
Where was James K Happ when Richard Scott was at Columbia in 1997?
In 1997 James K Happ was the CFO of the Dallas-based Columbia Homecare Group, Inc
Posted by sasha2008 at 08/05/2009 @ 10:59am
Kip Sullivan over at the PNHP blog made the case that progressives on the "public option" are guilty of a bait and switch. I have not seen a progressive answer the indictment.
http://www.pnhp.org/blog/
[I am not able to post the full url to the posts by Kip Sullivan]
Posted by JamesTaylor at 08/05/2009 @ 11:27am
Posted by antisocialist at 08/05/2009 @ 10:37am
The original source for Stephen Carver's line about "From hell's heart, I stab at thee!"
Ahab's final statement as he throws his harpoon at Moby Dick who then drags him down to the depths.
Posted by Mask at 08/05/2009 @ 11:49am
JamesTaylor:
Riders and amendments that make a bill a shadow of its former self are unfortunately par for the course in Congress. There is a small but quite vocal group in Congress that favors a single-payer solution. They are hardly secretive about it, and they would like it discussed openly on the floor.
And since I think that anything other than single-payer is doomed to catastrophic failure, I hope it does get discussed -- although it's too bad the only way to do so appears to be by proposing a single-payer bill as an "amendment" to the bill currently under consideration.
Posted by Nexus at 08/05/2009 @ 12:01pm
"No, we want reform...we just dont want to have govt run it or a single payer program that has problrems like Canada and England.
We actually want a debate BEFORE the vote on a plan and we actualy want our congresman to READ the damn thing...plenty of time to debate and vote AFTER we the people discuss..."
this is pretty much what every ignoramus is saying at those astro-turf protests.
can someone tell me how it is possible to get through to someone who holds such shallow, ignorant opinions?
canada has problems? compared to the united states? again, impossible to get through to someone who thinks that canadian healthcare has worse problems than we do.
Posted by darladoon at 08/05/2009 @ 12:02pm
CHRISTOPHER< The Left's "ability to organize" has never resulted in ANYTHING except systems that look good to the uneducated, fall apart under the weight of their own contradictions and have to be maintained, in the end, at the point of a gun.
Posted by william.harry13 at 08/05/2009 @ 12:14pm
"The Left's "ability to organize" has never resulted in ANYTHING except systems that look good to the uneducated, fall apart under the weight of their own contradictions and have to be maintained, in the end, at the point of a gun."
Yes, in contrast to the "uneducated", all us educated folks are always swayed by sweeping, vague generalizations like yours that conveniently don't include any actual facts. Are you planning to shout your highly informative philosophy at the top of your lungs at your representative's town hall meeting?
Posted by Nexus at 08/05/2009 @ 12:25pm
I'll shout it to anyone smart enough to listen. And as for facts, I'd point to Russia, China, Eastern Europe, a host of Latin American countries and any of the other nations that have tried the leftist ideal. It works for a while,Nexus, depending on the economic status of the people its imposed on, but in the end the curtailment of your economic freedoms, forced on you in the interests of "the people", must be maintained by the abridgement of your political ones.
Posted by william.harry13 at 08/05/2009 @ 12:41pm
"And as for facts, I'd point to Russia, China, Eastern Europe, a host of Latin American countries and any of the other nations"
I sort of had in mind policies enacted by the "left" in THIS country. But while we're looking at the "left" in other countries, what about most of western Europe and Canada? Virtually all have better health by almost any measure you can think of, and virtually all pay far less for it.
Our government exists to protect the "interests of 'the people". Otherwise, we wouldn't need a government at all. We can debate the level of that "protection", but it is naive and simplistic to believe that any government activity that "curtails" your "economic freedoms" is inherently bad.
Democracy is not synonymous with free market capitalism. A certain level of "socialism" along with democracy is alive and well in many prosperous countries -- and capitalism coupled with totalitarianism is thriving in China.
Posted by Nexus at 08/05/2009 @ 1:11pm
can someone tell me how it is possible to get through to someone who holds such shallow, ignorant opinions? Posted by darladoon at 08/05/2009 @ 12:02pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Thats why everyone gave up on YOU a long time ago!
Posted by BigPasture at 08/05/2009 @ 1:18pm
NEXUS, I can't honestly speak for Canada, although I'm hearing on shows like NPR that the Euopean's are rethinking their devotion to Government paying all the bills: And when I was in China a few years ago on VC, the locals would say that, because the two systems DON"T function well, the government was beginning to find it difficult to justify their existance, so they started saying that Mao was "a little bit wrong" about some things. Then each year, like a scale, the %ages would change: In '06 he was 80% right and 20% wrong. In 07 it was 70% 30%. Its a face saving way to finally dump the system created by the man who said it was "glorious to be poor" without being thrown out themselves.
Posted by william.harry13 at 08/05/2009 @ 2:04pm
william.harry13:
If you were in China, then you would know that China's fast track to industrial capitalism is destroying their air and water at a rate that would make a 19th century industrialist blush. Maybe when the next revolution comes, they'll get a government that cares about the health and welfare of the people and will start to regulate those polluting industries, and then...oh darn, there we go "curtailing economic freedoms" again and we're back down that road to "socialism".
This is not an either/or proposition. You can have a balance of capitalist enterprises and government regulations and government programs. We have public schools and public roads because some fundamental services should not be left entirely to the mandates of the profit motive. This false dichotomy of "freedom good, government bad" detracts from constructive discourse.
Posted by Nexus at 08/05/2009 @ 4:10pm
That is a marxist totalitarian takeover of our nation. And we are going to fight against you socialists as you try and destroy this country. We conservatives are mad and we are rising up in anger and you aren't going to like it. Posted by antisocialist at 08/04/2009 @ 3:27pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Yeah larry, I'm real worried about a severe "teabagging" by a bunch of brainwashed diseased zombies who don' t have the sense to go to the doctor...
Posted by chaoszen at 08/05/2009 @ 10:16pm
NEXUS you misunderstand me. A realization that socialistic government leads to dictatorship does not preclude government involvement completely. I drive on state highways and I went to public schools. I had all the freedoms I was suppose to growing up even AFTER the Roosevelt years, when people thought we were going socialist then. (although private schools are better today). But the role of Government is not to "take care" of people: It is to be answerable to people: It exists at OUR whim, and is not there for us to support, which is what we do through higher taxes whenever some crackpot comes up with some new idea or social program. I am not my brothers keeper, man, at least not by Gov decree.
Posted by william.harry13 at 08/06/2009 @ 06:58am
And we are going to fight against you socialists as you try and destroy this country. Posted by antisocialist at 08/04/2009 @ 3:27pm
Larry, you don't seem to realize that this country has already been destroyed by 30 years of Republican/Libertarian Capitalist policies. Reagan, Bush, Bush2 and in part Clinton's policies have brought this country down over the last 30 plus years.
Us "Socialists" are just trying to pick up the pieces. And almost impossible task, given the current democratic administration and the neo-con wingnuts like yourself.
Let us steer the ship for 10 or 15 years and us "Socialists" will clean up the mess. Should have been done a long time ago.
Posted by chaoszen at 08/06/2009 @ 08:29am
Can't wait to see THAT
Posted by william.harry13 at 08/06/2009 @ 11:47am
william.harry13:
"But the role of Government is not to 'take care' of people"
The "role" of our government is to do whatever happens to be the "whim" of the majority, provided it doesn't violate the constitution. Public schools and public roads are just the most blatant examples of the myriad ways in which the government "takes care" of people, many of which "curtail economic freedoms". My "economic freedom" is "curtailed" because we have laws that prevent me from practicing medicine without a license or selling heroin on street corners or making children's pajamas out of highly flammable material and toxic lead paint.
As for your assertion that "socialist government leads to dictatorship," the historical record really doesn't support this. Your classic examples of China and Russia didn't devolve into dictatorship. They started out that way. The same is true for Cuba and probably any other Latin American example. Are the western European countries or Canada in emminent danger of becoming dicatorships because of their "socialist" policies?
The fact that some dicators wrap themselves in socialist cloaks is not the same as a causal relationship between socialism and dicatorship.
Posted by Nexus at 08/06/2009 @ 12:58pm
NEXUS, at the risk of sounding arrogant, I think you're making excuses for a failed system. Socialists the world over looked at the collapse of the Soviet Union and explained it away by saying "well, that wasn't REALLY socialism, Lenin and Stalin perverted it" because it started from the first as a dictatorship. But the principles were applied, and my contention is it would have turned into that eventually-as soon as the first guy objected to the state determining his economic means. At that point th state would have to let him go his way or hold a gun to his head. In a world like the 16th century Aztecs lived in socialism actually worked wellworks fine. But I don't want to live like the Aztecs, NEX, nothing against them, though. :)
Posted by william.harry13 at 08/06/2009 @ 2:54pm
Posted by BigPasture at 08/04/2009 @ 10:44pm | ignore this person | warn this person
And get tea bagged.
If you stop snorting red paint rattle cans you won't need to urinate so much, and your prostate will return to its normal size.
Posted by julien38 at 08/06/2009 @ 5:15pm