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RedditAt the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, I think it's incredibly important for anyone even vaguely on the center-left to understand what's at stake in this healthcare fight. Talking to an immigration reform activist a few weeks ago he described healthcare reform as the "front end of the wedge. If we can't get that through, forget immigration reform." That's true for pretty much every other item on the left's agenda. Jim DeMint was speaking the truth.
Since Washington lives on drama, and the 24 hour news cycle exacerbates that tendency, it's very easy to lose perspective. But this letter from a reader at TPM summed up how I'm feeling pretty well:
if this country cannot pass a bill which insures that every citizen has access to medical care, which every developed country has managed to do (and got done many many years ago), there is something very fundamentally and structurally wrong with this country.Such an event, in my mind, would confirm that we live with a completely corrupt and dysfunctional form of government. Forty nine states, each with bicameral legislative bodies, some of which have distinguished themselves recently with unabashed levels of incompetency and cluelessness. Then, graft a federal government over that, which is also bicameral, the non-representative portion of it being filled with officials who are certifiable morons and/or who are bought and sold like whores by wealthy contributors.
Talk about a Waterloo.
This is a defining moment in our history. Do we fulfill our supposed status as a "shining city on a hill" or continue our long slow decline into a second rate oligarchy?
The defining feature of this decade thus far has been elite failure and oligarchic corruption. If there's going to be a pivot onto a new path of progress this is it.
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There will be "something", but it won't be single-payer.
Ergo, many here at "TN" (writers and bloggers alike) will be disappointed. And the Right will scream and bemoan the "doom of America has cometh!!!"
Posted by Mask at 07/22/2009 @ 09:48am
If you want to stick the knife in this early Mr. Hayes, that is your prerogative. I think you are telling us the sky is falling when it is just a little over cast.
Yes, the Party of "no preogress in America" is doing their best to keep us locked in the 1950's, but that can be overcome.
So far, the health care bill as presented is NOT the fix we need. It is loaded with AMA pro-business junk, not real reform. It should die on the vine.
Posted by crabwalk at 07/22/2009 @ 09:59am
this is the most hopeful article at the Nation I have read in a long time. Hopeful for most Americans, but not for the far left.
Indeed we are at a crossroads. We either remain a constitutional republic, or we are transformed into another European socialist country.
Fortunately, moderate and conservative Democrats in Congress, while few, are beginning to recognize the same peril. It is these Democrats who stand as the last barrier to socialism in this country. The Republicans lack the numbers in Congress. Our grand experiment in constitutional republicanism shall live or die as these Democrats make their decisions. I pray for each of them that Obama and his lackeys Pelosi, Reid, and Emmanuel will not have sufficient bribery power to corrupt their current backbone.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 10:04am
Antisocialist... please tell me which European country is a socialist nation? Socialised medicine, as well as socialised education, is one of the ways in which capitalism developed. You need an educated healthy labour force if you want capitalism to work well. The UK is the first and most capitalist country in the world. The City calls the tune. But health care there is more socialised than in Germany, which has a mix of private and state run companies to provide health care. Whoever calls the UK socialist shows that he hasn't got a clue about what he's talking.
Posted by Yanpol at 07/22/2009 @ 10:17am
"If health care dies, so does the entire progressive domestic agenda."
progressive agenda?
hahaha........
first you need gold, man.
sacks of it.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/22/2009 @ 10:24am
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 10:04am
delusional, as usual. The EU, your dreaded socialism, is a major economic power in the world. Millions upon millions of people live and thrive there. Are some of them discontent? Sure, but look in the mirror at your hatred of your very own government and neighbors. The economy we have now is the doing of your party. If you are unhappy with it, only you and yours are to blame.
Posted by crabwalk at 07/22/2009 @ 10:29am
The Stakes of the Free Speech Battle.....
Drudge linked to an article on a kiosk in Concord Mall, NC that will not have its Lease extended due to the merchandise punning liberal ideas (such as the message "Work Harder, Obama needs the Money"). From this, it was learned that Simon Properties Group own this mall and Simon is a big-time Lib who donates big $$ to Lib candidates.....the George Sorros of malls.
I just sent an email to SPG's Investor Relations dept. with the following message and I urge all free-speech defenders do the same:
(by HAPPY): "The Simon property closest to me, xyz Mall, will be avoided by us; now that we know the Simons are big-time Liberals who want to be political in treating their tenants by discriminating against the Concord Mall (NC) kiosk selling mildly conservative items.
If that's the case, I don't want my money going into Simon's pockets. You can choose to become the New York Times of the mall world. Good luck!"
Everyone knows that malls were filled with Obama items for most of last summer and into the present.....what Simon is doing is dangerous and please avoid its malls and outlet centers!
Posted by Happy at 07/22/2009 @ 10:29am
Posted by Yanpol at 07/22/2009 @ 10:17am | ignore this person | warn this person
I would try to wax poetic, but Yanpol has said it all succinctly and well with little room for argument. I'm still amazed at the vast number of parrots from the Michael Steel school of "Repeat these trite little phrases over and over again". I was also surprised at how corrupt our elected officials, Democrat and Republican, have become. The stench of big moneyed interest is really nauseating. How did we get here?
Posted by julien38 at 07/22/2009 @ 10:35am
" Talking to an immigration reform activist a few weeks ago he described healthcare reform as the "front end of the wedge. If we can't get that through, forget immigration reform." That's true for pretty much every other item on the left's agenda. Jim DeMint was speaking the truth..."
From my lips to Gods ear...
lets kill the entire left socialist agenda...the country is starting to notice what Obama and the socialists in Congress are trying to do..despite the MSM not reporting any of it or even giving an analysis of it...
and they do not like it..
Obama will tank farther and faster than Carter..
Posted by YourJomamma at 07/22/2009 @ 10:35am
The economy we have now is the doing of your party. If you are unhappy with it, only you and yours are to blame.
Posted by crabwalk at 07/22/2009 @ 10:29am
actually, larry's just another pawn.
left, right, left, right....
and the bank marched on.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/22/2009 @ 10:38am
Obama will tank farther and faster than Carter..
Posted by YourJomamma at 07/22/2009 @ 10:35am
carter/volcker saved america.
then reagan mortgaged it.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/22/2009 @ 10:40am
then bush took out an alt-a with the people's bank.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/22/2009 @ 10:42am
Posted by Happy at 07/22/2009 @ 10:29am
i've been saving this one for you!
it's all about the mccain/palin cap'n'trade plan!
enjoy!
"To support the cap-and-trade system, a McCain-Palin Administration will promote the innovation, development, and deployment of advanced technologies. They will reform federal government research funding and infrastructure to support the cap-and-trade emissions reduction goals and emphasize the commercialization of low-carbon technologies.
John McCain and Sarah Palin believe that an effective and sustainable climate policy must also support rapid economic growth. They will use a portion of auction proceeds to reduce the impact on low-income American families. The McCain-Palin plan will accomplish this in part by incorporating measures to mitigate any economic cost of meeting emission targets. "
http://www.tdbimg.com/files/2009/07/17/ -environment-mccain_12271399362.pdf
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/22/2009 @ 10:45am
Antisocialist... please tell me which European country is a socialist nation? Socialised medicine, as well as socialised education, is one of the ways in which capitalism developed. You need an educated healthy labour force if you want capitalism to work well. The UK is the first and most capitalist country in the world. The City calls the tune. But health care there is more socialised than in Germany, which has a mix of private and state run companies to provide health care. Whoever calls the UK socialist shows that he hasn't got a clue about what he's talking.
Posted by Yanpol at 07/22/2009 @ 10:17am
"the UK is the most capitalist country in the world". That alone should be enough to discredit you, but I won't.
It is true that since the days of Margaret Thatcher, there has been some unwinding of socialism in the UK, but it remains primarily a socialist democracy.
To answer you though, I refer your to the Stockholm Declaration of Principles (1989) by the Socialist International, which is the largest organizing body in socialism.
They have redefined the goals of socialism to allow a mix of private and public so as to permit a range of socialist incorporations, while seeking the same overall goals.
By their criteria, most of Europe remain socialist to a large degree.
<DECLARATION of PRINCIPLES
Adopted by the XVIII Congress, Stockholm, June 1989>
http://tinyurl.com/9y587z
And capitalism does not require socialized medicine or education to succeed. That is absurd.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 10:47am
"Repeat these trite little phrases over and over again". I was also surprised at how corrupt our elected officials, Democrat and Republican, have become. The stench of big moneyed interest is really nauseating. How did we get here?
Posted by julien38 at 07/22/2009 @ 10:35am
capitalism becomes communism, communism becomes capitalism.
people are greedy.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/22/2009 @ 10:47am
"Repeat these trite little phrases over and over again". I was also surprised at how corrupt our elected officials, Democrat and Republican, have become. The stench of big moneyed interest is really nauseating. How did we get here?
Posted by julien38 at 07/22/2009 @ 10:35am
capitalism becomes communism, communism becomes capitalism.
people are greedy.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/22/2009 @ 10:48am
wtf?
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/22/2009 @ 10:49am
Posted by Happy at 07/22/2009 @ 10:29am
Be afraid.
It seems to be your natural state of mind.
----
JOM..who are these socialsists in congress you write about?
Reid? Pelosi? The Blue Dogs?
Bought and paid for by American business interests. Just like the House Health care "Plan".
Having fun doing business in China still? While you rant and rave against your own country? Who paid for the Chinese power plants? Nuclear plants? High speed rail lines? Shipping ports? Airports?
Why don't you neo-cons list the industrial democracies in the world that don't have some form of universal health care coverage?
I'll start:
USA.
Now you go....
Posted by crabwalk at 07/22/2009 @ 10:53am
enjoy!
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/22/2009 @ 10:45am
What's the point?
It's worse than wasting time re-reading some stock recommendations from before the bottom fell out of the market!
BTW, I have never been one to complain to enterprises....but now, I think I will....like I did with Simon Properties Group. Far more effective, IMO, than writing to Congress.....hit them where it matters!
Anther BTW, in the past two days, I've read about the huge hits by the pension funds in Cali and harvard....they brought ecstasy (beyond HAPPY) to me.
Both CalPers (Gubber employees) and STRS (for teachers) lost almost 25% while Harvard took a ~35% dump! Harvard now needs to cut, BIG!!
It's my Hopey and Changey that when the chips are down, and portfolios are down bigger, some donkey sense will come to these bastions of Liberal Obamanomics that bashing business and stock companies, are highly counter-productive.
Posted by Happy at 07/22/2009 @ 10:55am
happy,
wtf are you talking about -- "liberal obamanomics"?
that pipe is giving you too many head-rushes.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/22/2009 @ 10:58am
Having fun doing business in China still? While you rant and rave against your own country? Who paid for the Chinese power plants? Nuclear plants? High speed rail lines? Shipping ports? Airports?
Posted by crabwalk at 07/22/2009 @ 10:53am
must read:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/KG18Ad02.html
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/22/2009 @ 11:00am
"By their criteria, most of Europe remain socialist to a large degree. "anti
So, why is it that so many of these evil places rank so high in GDP?
EU-#1 as a whole
Germany, France, Italy Gret Britain- #'s 4,5,6,7 as individual countries.
China-worlds largets socilaized country- #2
Japan-socialized medicine- #3
It sure seems to me that if your fear driven theories had any basis in reality that the EU would be at the bottom, under such free wheeling places as Russia, Argentina, Nigeria and Singapore.
Posted by crabwalk at 07/22/2009 @ 11:07am
Good God Crab, learn to type!!!
sorry, going too fast for myself to keep up.
Gotta run. Gotta pay medical bills so that the CEO's can reap multi millions in pay packages. We all know that they deserve the money more than those damned evil nurses unions!!
Posted by crabwalk at 07/22/2009 @ 11:10am
delusional, as usual. The EU, your dreaded socialism, is a major economic power in the world. Posted by crabwalk at 07/22/2009 @ 10:29am
That's funny!!!
<Sliding toward irrelevance
By Robert Kagan
BRUSSELS -- A mere two years ago, the British author and thinker Mark Leonard published a book titled "Why Europe Will Run the 21st Century." Today, one wonders to what degree Europe will even participate in the 21st century.
It is not just the deadly blow struck by Ireland's rejection of the Lisbon Treaty reorganizing the European Union.
I have spent six of the past eight years in the capital of the European Union, and I have noticed over this period a steady loss of self-confidence in Europe, a turning inward and a growing pessimism about the future.
For all the focus on the ills of the American economy, few Europeans feel they are about to inherit the world.
Europe has started to settle into a role akin to the chorus of a Greek tragedy, endlessly commenting and pronouncing judgment on the actions of the protagonists - "O Oedipus, by reckless pride undone!" - but with little or no effect on the outcome of the drama.>
http://tinyurl.com/ldy34f
<Ambrose Evans-Pritchard says it is ironic that European banks have turned out to be deeper in debt than their US counterparts.
It turns out that European regulators have allowed even greater use of "off-books" chicanery than the Americans.
They are sliding into a deeper downturn than the US.
The European Commission's top economists warned the politicians in the 1990s that the euro might not survive a crisis, at least in its current form. There is no EU treasury or debt union to back it up.>
http://tinyurl.com/5xaqlr
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 11:12am
It turns out that European regulators have allowed even greater use of "off-books" chicanery than the Americans.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 11:12am
birds of goldman feather...
hey, dude, the dollar might not survive, either.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/22/2009 @ 11:14am
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 10:04am
Larry, given practically EVERYTHING done since the early 20th Century on social policy (from child labor to workplace safety to the New Deal to today)....YOU consider "socialism"...
how is it we are STILL a "constitutional republic"....by your standard, we're ALREADY a "slightly less" socialist state, aren't we???
Posted by Mask at 07/22/2009 @ 11:27am
"left socialist agenda"
= the timid democrats attempting to barely lower healthcare costs for the majority of americans, while instead generously rewarding banks and CEOs??
if that is a "left socialist agenda," then you and the entire right wing is the most deluded, shizophrenic, psychopathic and sociopathic group of people currently walking the planet earth.
you know, people like hannity, limbaugh and glenn beck, and their moronic political cohorts in the south, midwest and southeast (and a few in orange county), have so much mind-numbing power, that it is safe to say they are destroying the country.
you heard it from me right now: the right wing of the republican party is destroying the country.
wait a minute, they HAVE destroyed the country.
Posted by darladoon at 07/22/2009 @ 11:31am
according the conservatives, "socialism" means any attempt to anchor the catastrophic status quo. ANY attempt.
Posted by darladoon at 07/22/2009 @ 11:33am
Why don't you neo-cons list the industrial democracies in the world that don't have some form of universal health care coverage?
I'll start:
USA.
Now you go....
Posted by crabwalk at 07/22/2009 @ 10:53am
I don't care if every other nation in the world has UHC. It has nothing to do with the US.
We are the envy of the entire world for our economic engine.
There is NO other nation in the world that has the entrepeneurial opportunity that exists in the US.
<Richest GDP Countries 2006: Amounts Per Country
United States … $13 trillion in international$ (up 3.3% from 2005) China … $10 trillion (up 10.7%) Japan … $4.17 trillion (up 2.2%) India … $4.16 trillion (up 9.2%) Germany … $2.6 trillion (up 2.7%) United Kingdom … $2.1 trillion (up 2.7%) France … $1.9 trillion (up 2%) Italy … $1.8 trillion (up 1.9%) Russia … $1.72 trillion (up 6.7%) Brazil … $1.70 trillion (up 3.7%) Mexico … $1.17 trillion (up 4.8%) Canada … $1.16 trillion (up 2.7%)>
http://tinyurl.com/nuq55w
BTW the GDP for the EU was:
GDP (PPP) US $13.06 trillion (2006)
per capita
US US $43,444 (2006)
EU US $29,900 (2006)
It takes 27 countries (EU membership) to equal our GDP output.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 11:34am
I know you left Crab, but more on your beloved Europe.
<Europe's New Wave of Toxic Debt
By Carol Matlack
A decade of heavy borrowing has lofted euro zone debt to $11 trillion, and it's starting to come due just when companies are strapped for cash. Rising defaults could send shock waves through global markets.
More toxic debt soon could come crashing through the global financial system. The surprising source: Europe Inc. Once-stodgy Old World companies, from cement makers to phone operators to chemical companies, went on an unprecedented borrowing spree over the past decade that has left them up to their necks in debt. Corporate debt in the euro zone stands at more than $11 trillion, equaling some 95 percent of the region's economy, vs. only 50 percent in the US.>
http://tinyurl.com/bcf5ct
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 11:37am
how is it we are STILL a "constitutional republic"....by your standard, we're ALREADY a "slightly less" socialist state, aren't we???
Posted by Mask at 07/22/2009 @ 11:27am
We're hanging by a thread.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 11:41am
It is nice to see that the left wing paranoid chicken littles have been replaced by right wing paranoid chicken littles now that a democrat is in office.We can now have Hitler/ nazi replaced with Stalin/ Marxist/socialist giving us a bit of variety when it comes to paranoia and what to be paranoid about.What is quite fascinating is that it is the same right wingers who called the lefts chicken littles crazy,kooks,and loons who are now repeating what those left wing crazy kooks and loons said,but have not figured out that their comments make them crazy kooks and loons.Most never do see their own insanity,but can point it out in other people.I'm lucky there because I have the paperwork that proves that I am crazy so I'm not in denial about that like these other people.
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/22/2009 @ 11:43am
I'm lucky there because I have the paperwork that proves that I am crazy so I'm not in denial about that like these other people.
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/22/2009 @ 11:43am
KLINGER?!
Posted by Benchrest at 07/22/2009 @ 11:48am
Isn't it nice for Simon PG to respond?
Thank you for your message! We appreciate your interest and feedback. A representative from Simon will respond to your question or comments as soon as possible.
Simon.com Simon Property Group, Inc. 225 West Washington Street Indianapolis, IN 46204
Posted by Happy at 07/22/2009 @ 11:48am
"We're hanging by a thread."----Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 11:41am
For a HUNDRED YEARS?!?!!!?!?!?!?!
heheh
Posted by Mask at 07/22/2009 @ 11:49am
Benchrest-Klinger was and still is my role model.
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/22/2009 @ 11:50am
according the conservatives, "socialism" means any attempt to anchor the catastrophic status quo. ANY attempt.
Posted by darladoon at 07/22/2009 @ 11:33am
Darla, you are so brainwashed. Have you ever had a thought that wasn't planted by another source?
Conservatives do not stand for the status quo.
conservatives stand for continuing to open up liberty for Americans to pursue their dreams as the founders envisioned. A nation where the Federal govt abides by it's constitution and principles.
The grand promise for each to engage in the "pursuit of happiness" means that govt should not be an impediment to that pursuit. NOT that govt should guarantee, nor provide the ends to the pursuit.
"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
Benjamin Franklin
"I can find no warrant for such an appropriation in the Constitution, and I do not believe that the power and duty of the General Government ought to be extended to the relief of individual suffering which is in no manner properly related to the public service or benefit."
President Grover Cleveland
The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others."
Thomas Jefferson
"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."
Thomas Jefferson
"The Constitution only guarantees the American people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself."
Benjamin Franklin
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 12:09pm
Study: Public Option Saves $200 Billion
"According to a new non-partisan study, the public option would provide significant savings to the country over a ten year period.
Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA) told MSNBC that the Senate Finance Committee needed to find $200 billion in savings to pass health care reform. Grassley is opposed to the public option; if Grassley were serious about finding $200 billion in new savings, he'd support a public option.
A new study from the Commonwealth Fund finds that the public option could save the country $265 billion. The same study found that Grassley's favored approach--allowing insurance companies to maintain their near-monopoly status--would cost the country $32 billion."
http://tinyurl.com/m3v629
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 12:34pm
So they did a poll of Canadians and guess what? They like their health care.
Now, there are some things that Americans like better about their health care than Canadians like about theirs. The Canadians complain a bit more that they have to wait longer to see a specialist. But overall their satisfaction is a lot higher. Here's where the real differences show up:
Looked at another way, 65 percent of Canadians said they had access to all the health care services they needed at costs they could afford; 49 percent of Americans felt the same way.
That difference probably reflects the costs of health care: Patients pay nothing at doctors' offices in Canada.
It also helps explain the fact that Americans see health care differently based on their incomes, while Canadians see it roughly the same regardless of what they earn.
Just 37 percent of Americans who make less than $50,000 a year say they have access to and can afford all the health care services they need, while 60 percent of those who make more say they can get all they need at costs they can afford.
The gap was much smaller in Canada, where 61 percent of those who earn less than $55,000 and 70 percent of those who make more than that said they had access to all the care they needed at costs they could afford.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/72229.html
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 12:36pm
Words you'll never hear in the Canadian health care system
1."Out of network" There are no "networks" in Canada. Doctors and hospitals are not affiliated with private insurance companies. Doctors are private business entities and hospitals are usually run by non-profit boards or regional health associations.
2."COBRA" Health coverage is NOT tied to your place of employment in any way. So any COBRA-like scheme is unnecessary.
3."Co-Pay" The government pays 100% of basic care, 100% of the time. Drugs are not covered, but are subsidized by government to a point. And because of mass buys, discounts are obtained from the drug companies. That's why our prices are so much lower. Most employers offer a drug plan that pays for 100% of drug cost coverage.
4."monthly premium\deductible" Wazzat? We don't consider our health to be the same as our possessions.
5."waiting for approval" Doctors are the sole decision makers for health care. NOBODY influences or delays their decisions, warns them of costs or prevents them from giving treatment for any reason.
6."Government interference" The provincial government in each province PAYS for whatever services doctors provide. No questions asked. Unless the procedure is experimental, not medically necessary or unwarranted, doctors cannot deny basic care - by law.
7."Health insurance lobby" There are NO insurance companies for basic care, only companies for providing insurance for travelers. No money to be made here.
8."bureaucracy" When we visit a hospital or doctor's office, we walk in, get treated, walk out. No "applications", "registrations" or any other kind of paperwork is required. We NEVER have to talk to a single "government official" or wait for a "judgment".
9."PRE-EXISTING CONDITION" http://tinyu
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 12:42pm
Here's the url for the above: http://tinyurl.com/lsp9as
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 12:43pm
It is hard to be optimistic about our health care reform, or for that matter any of our domestic issues under the current political climate in Washington. The majority of us voted for President Obama because we knew that our system of rich get richer and middle class and poor get poorer was not how our country was supposed to work. So many of us have been hooked into the conservative talk show corporate whores that spew lies and ridiculous half-truths that we begin to believe what they are saying.
We have supposed allies in Washington (blue dog democrats) that have taken so much money from the health care and insurance industry that they are forced by their "bosses" to play political games rather than do what is right. This is especially prevalent in the health care reform battle, but is obviously in effect in the other reform efforts that are being sabotaged by the corporate greed mongers on a daily basis. We need to track and remember the politicians that are playing these games and make sure that they are not able to do it for another term.
Posted by randyhensley at 07/22/2009 @ 12:44pm
EVERY country is a socialist country, because even the most authoritarian dictatorships still have some form of regulation on who can do what, and when. Pure capitalism and pure communism exist only as abstract academic ends of the political spectrum. Everything else, i.e. countries that actually exist, falls somewhere in between. That the wingiest of the wingnuts can use the word 'socialist' to slander anyone they don't like who proposes any regulation that cuts into their profit margin, to foster the common good, shows only the power of changing the label to hide what's inside.
Posted by DejaVu at 07/22/2009 @ 12:47pm
Public Option: Too Cheap or Too Expensive? Republicans Can't Even Keep Lies Straight
Here's Michael Steele, lying about how the public option will allegedly cost Americans so much more than what we have now.
Here's Michele Bachmann, undercutting Steele with what to her and her insurance-company buddies is a scaaaary idea: That the public option will be much cheaper that what we have now -- so much so that it, in finest Law of the Marketplace fashion, drives the inferior private insurers out of business. Geezo peezo, Republicans! Can't you keep your health care lies straight?
http://tinyurl.com/nz4hgb
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 12:51pm
Tell Congress No More Delays On Health Care Reform!
We've got to let Members of Congress, the Democratic leadership, and the White House know that we don't want them to go on vacation in August until they deal with health care reform FIRST. We can't have them be scared by the Blue Dog Democrats and the lying Republicans into cutting back subsidies for Americans, getting rid of the national insurance exchange, and putting in state-based co-ops into the health care reform package.
Who to call:
http://tinyurl.com/lwrxer
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 12:56pm
Tuesday, July 21, 2009
My whopping $32 emergency room visit in the land of socialized medicine:
An American in Paris needs emergency laser eye surgery.
Total bill for surgery in scary, scary socialized medicine France: $132
http://tinyurl.com/nguvun
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 1:01pm
A new study from the Commonwealth Fund finds that the public option could save the country $265 billion. The same study found that Grassley's favored approach--allowing insurance companies to maintain their near-monopoly status--would cost the country $32 billion."
http://tinyurl.com/m3v629
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 12:34pm
Completely unbelievable and deceiving, and supports the totalitarian Democratic plans to mandate the purchase of either public or private insurance.
Tell me what part of liberty is it to force participation in health care?
this attempt to bankrupt America includes requiring businesses to either insure workers or pay 7% of earnings (pg 7).
tell me how a small business that can barely meet expenses now is going to afford paying that kind of money?
And you and others still haven't answered the question that Congress realizes that they can't solve...How do you do this and reverse the 53 Trillion dollar hole that Medicare is in?
It's no longer working in France, they are getting deeper in deficit on their healthcare.
In Denmark, the elderly are abandoning the govt healthcare for private plans- 60% growth last year alone in that change.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 1:04pm
Study: Deficit Spending by Dems (not Repubs) Saves $200 Trillion
"According to a new non-partisan study, huge deficit spending by the BHO administration would provide significant savings to the country over a ten year period....."
http://tinybho.com/m3v629
Posted by Happy at 07/22/2009 @ 1:13pm
It's morally wrong to leave 100 million Americans un or underinsured, 1 illness away from financial ruin. And it's wrong to burden small business with the outrageous insurance costs also -- found a cool site; Balkingpoints ; incredible satellite view of earth
Posted by reg373 at 07/22/2009 @ 1:20pm
For all of the Medicare lovers
<It is important for you to understand that Medicare does not cover everything, and it does not pay the total cost for most services or supplies that are covered. You should talk to your doctor to be sure you are getting the service or supply that best meets your health care needs.
http://www.medicare.gov/Coverage/Home.asp
What's NOT Covered by Part A and Part B?
Items and services that Medicare doesn't cover include, but aren't limited to, the following:
Acupuncture.
Chiropractic services (except as listed on page 27).
Cosmetic surgery.
Custodial care, except when you also get skilled nursing care in a skilled nursing facility, at home, or as part of hospice care.
Deductibles, coinsurance, or copayments when you get certain health care services. See pages 120–121 for these amounts. People with limited income and resources may get help paying these costs. See pages 82–84.
Dental care and dentures (with a few exceptions).
Eye exams (routine), eye refractions (exam that measures how well you see at specific distances), and eyeglasses (except as listed on page 30).
Foot care (routine), like cutting corns or calluses (with few exceptions). See page 31.
Hearing aids and exams for the purpose of fitting a hearing aid.
Hearing tests that haven't been ordered by your doctor.
Laboratory tests (screening), except those listed on pages 26–35.
Long-term care. See pages 102–104.
Orthopedic shoes (with few exceptions). See page 29 under Diabetes Supplies.
Physical exams (routine or yearly).
Medicare will cover a one‑time physical exam. See page 33.
continued
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 1:26pm
"conservatives stand for continuing to open up liberty for Americans to pursue their dreams as the founders envisioned. "----Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 12:09pm
And that include the right of 9 year olds to work in an un-regulated coal mine, right, Larry?
Posted by Mask at 07/22/2009 @ 1:31pm
wait a minute, they HAVE destroyed the country.
Posted by darladoon at 07/22/2009 @ 11:31am | ignore this person | warn this person
I totally agree. The rightwingnut talking heads that speak of individual liberties and against socialism. Are totally bought and paid for by corporate interests. They gleely sell the fellow american down the toilet if it means a few more bucks in their pockets.
The go on the radio and television, and spew their vitriol against the democrats and progressives. Against anyone who is actually working to protect the people from big corporate interests. They blatently tell lies and call names and attempt to incite their base using fear. All the while they could care less about individual freedoms. Their only goal is to keep their corporate masters profiteering off the majority of americans. The best way to do that is via the downfall of any progressive government and the reinstitution of a corporate regime (just like Bush was). So they will go all out fighting anything that could be seen as a win for democrats, even if is not in the best interests of America to do so.
Posted by Extraneous at 07/22/2009 @ 1:32pm
More on the Medicare exclusions
<Prescription drugs (with few exceptions). See page 34. See pages 63–71 for information about Medicare prescription drug coverage (Part D).
Shots to prevent illness, except as listed on pages 30, 31, and 33. Part D must cover all commercially-available vaccines (like the shingles vaccine) except those covered by Part B.
Surgical procedures given in ambulatory surgical centers that aren't included on Medicare's list of ambulatory surgical center covered procedures.
Syringes or insulin. Insulin used with an insulin pump is covered by Part B. Syringes or insulin may be covered by Part D.
Travel (health care while you're traveling outside the United States, except as listed on page 37).>
http://www.medicare.gov/Publications/Pubs/pdf/10050.pdf
Got that? And notice, you have no healthcare benefits if traveling outside of the US.
For most services, you pay 20% of the Medicare approved fee schedule for that service.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 1:38pm
Their only goal is to keep their corporate masters profiteering off the majority of americans. The best way to do that is via the downfall of any progressive government and the reinstitution of a corporate regime (just like Bush was). So they will go all out fighting anything that could be seen as a win for democrats, even if is not in the best interests of America to do so.
Posted by Extraneous at 07/22/2009 @ 1:32pm
BS
Care to explain how Republicans are holding any of this back when they don't have the votes to stop it in either chamber of Congress?
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 1:40pm
why everyone just doesn't completely ignore the cowardly, fraudulent, asshole "christian" antisocialist is beyond me.
Posted by darladoon at 07/22/2009 @ 2:05pm
Their only goal is to keep their corporate masters profiteering off the majority of americans. The best way to do that is via the downfall of any progressive government and the reinstitution of a corporate regime (just like Bush was). So they will go all out fighting anything that could be seen as a win for democrats, even if is not in the best interests of America to do so.
Posted by Extraneous at 07/22/2009 @ 1:32pm
BS
Care to explain how Republicans are holding any of this back when they don't have the votes to stop it in either chamber of Congress?
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 1:40pm
Even if Extra is right, I'm sure glad we STILL have the personal liberty to fight for the "corporate masters" and to profiteer, all legal of course.
He and his ilk, also have the liberty to fight for collectivist masters like Magic and Pelosi and fight for handcuffing us all to CapandDie!
Posted by Happy at 07/22/2009 @ 2:07pm
Providers Endorse 'Pay for Value' Proposals
Some of the nation's most prestigious, innovative health-care providers are giving their blessing to legislative proposals to grant broad new authority to the Medicare Advisory Payment Commission.
..."Congress must encourage all U.S. physicians and hospitals to focus on quality, not quantity, and ultimately deliver better health for all Americans at lower cost," the group writes. "We urge you to insist that reform legislation includes a method that pays for value and quality rather than the quantity of medical procedures."
Signers of the letter include top executives at the Mayo Clinic, Virginia Mason Health System, the Lahey Clinic and the Dartmouth Institute for Health Policy and Clinical Practice.
http://tinyurl.com/lg9jf9
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 2:12pm
The Doctor Makes Sense on HealthCare:
http://tinyurl.com/ng7qb6
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 2:24pm
50 Year Olds Are Unemployable Without Public Option
in a 2006 study, the increasing number of homeless people are between 55 and 65 years old.
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/6519
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 2:37pm
By the by, I no longer read, or respond to, crazy wingnut posts.
In case you're wondering...
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 2:39pm
What Canadian Universal Health Care has given me
A Canadian details the lifetime of sane healthcare for herself and her family, and exposes the lie about wait times in the "socialized" system: none, for emergency or badly needed care.
"I want to expose the biggest lie that is trotted out about the Canadian health care system; wait times. Years back I needed to see an Ears, Nose and Throat specialist because I was getting occasional sinus headaches and my GP thought we should look to see if anything could be done. I waited about 5 months to see a very popular, admired specialist.
A few years later I developed an ear infection that ruptured my eardrum. I ended up at my University walk-in clinic and saw not 1, but 3, different doctors in the course of maybe 30 minutes. They agreed that I needed to see a specialist and phoned the office of the Doctor I had seen years before. Sure, he said, send her down. I got into see him in the time it took me to walk to his office. Needs based health care does work."
http://tinyurl.com/m3u8wq
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 2:51pm
Curious....what exactly of the horror stories of "Government-run" health care....rationing, limited doctor choice, etc. that we're told WILL occur...
is NOT occuring right now with private insurance?
Isn't "ending benefits" or "previous conditions not covered" similar to "rationing"? Isn't "not in network" similar to "limiting choice of doctor"?
Still not convinced of the merits of Federalizing, but not sure of the exact difference between that and what we have now???
Posted by Mask at 07/22/2009 @ 2:51pm
Other developed countries have had some form of social insurance (that later evolved into national insurance) for nearly as long as the US has been trying to get it. Some European countries started with compulsory sickness insurance, one of the first systems, for workers beginning in Germany in 1883; other countries including Austria, Hungary, Norway, Britain, Russia, and the Netherlands followed all the way through 1912. Other European countries, including Sweden in 1891, Denmark in 1892, France in 1910, and Switzerland in 1912, subsidized the mutual benefit societies that workers formed among themselves.
Universal Health Care in America
The United States is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not have a universal health care system.[1] The government directly covers 27.8% of the population[17] through health care programs for the elderly, disabled, military service families and veterans, children, and some of the poor, through Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, and TRICARE.[18][19] In all, government spending accounted for 45.1% of total health spending in the U.S. in 2005.[22] Current estimates put U.S. health care spending at more than 15% of GDP, a greater portion than in any other United Nations member state except for the Marshall Islands.[23] from The Pew Research Center Survey Report of May 10, 2005
Percent favoring government health insurance for all, even if taxes increase:
65% of the total 23% of enterprisers 59% of social conservatives 63% of pro-government conservatives 55% of upbeats 64% of disaffecteds 73% of conservative Democrats 65% of disadvantaged Democrats 90% of liberals
http://tinyurl.com/m3u8wq
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 3:00pm
"Medicare has done a much better job controlling cost than private insurance. The Congressional Budget Office determined that Medicare Advantage, which is insurance for the elderly run by private insurance companies, almost always cost the government more than traditional Medicare. The cost of Medicare has increased at a much slower rate than the private market.
A study by health policy expert Jacob Hacker shows that from 1997-2006 the private health insurance annual growth rate was 7.3% per enrollee, while for the same time period the Medicare growth rate was only 4.6%.
Almost all experts agree that a Medicare like public plan would be cheaper than private insurance. The Lewin Group, The Urban Institute, The Commonweath Fund, and the Congressional Budget Office all agree that a public plan structured like the one in the House bill would be cheaper than private insurance."
Go to url for sources:
http://tinyurl.com/mmtw79
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 3:18pm
why everyone just doesn't completely ignore the cowardly, fraudulent, asshole "christian" antisocialist is beyond me.
Posted by darladoon at 07/22/2009 @ 2:05pm
Oh comeon Darla, if you're going to make accusations, at least back it up.
Why don't you explain how I'm a coward?
Why don't you justify the charge that I'm a fraud? And fraudalent in what regard?
and then perhaps you can explain how I'm not a Christian? especially coming from someone who doesn't even believe there is a G-d.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 3:35pm
By the by, I no longer read, or respond to, crazy wingnut posts.
In case you're wondering...
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 2:39pm
In other words, she has been challenged on the BS for the DNC she is putting out and is afraid to debate the issues.
Typical of a "progressive". They hate to be challenged on their faulty agenda.
Well, Judy, you will fit in well with a totalitarian govt since you seem to prefer a lack of democratic debate.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 3:43pm
The Truth about Canadian Healthcare Canadian Emily Whitehead and an American friend had babies years ago, then compared notes.
The friend, who lives in Michigan, was in the hospital two or three days. Her bill: more than $3,000.
Whitehead, a diabetic, and her premature infant were hospitalized two months. The bill: $16.95, for TV and a long-distance call.
Today, Whitehead is battling cancer, but the Ontario government is paying for all her hospital stays and doctor visits.
"When you consider the cost between the U.S. and Canada, there is no comparison," said her husband, Dennis. "People who go to the hospital here don't face financial ruin."...
every Canadian who needs care gets it, and the single-payer-system doctors bill one payer. The government also is inherently more efficient than the U.S. system, in which payment might come from Medicare, Medicaid or private insurance plans, none of which covers exactly the same services or pays exactly the same amounts.
Dr. Diane Normandin learned the hard way.
She moved to Clearwater, Fla., in 1994 because she thought U.S. doctors had more freedom. But she spent an inordinate amount of time trying to tell whether a patient's insurance covered visits to a particular lab or specialist.
"You had maybe five minutes with the patient but 20 minutes of paperwork and the ridiculous sorting out of where the patient could go," said Normandin, who needed six employees to handle the workload. "It was crazy."
She returned to Canada in 2003 and opened a family practice near Montreal. She now has one employee.
http://tinyurl.com/kv6bf6
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 3:55pm
More Canadians on their "socialized" Medicine:
"Having had "universal health care" here since 1965 certainly gives us a bit of history on which to express an opinion.
The proof is really in the pudding as no politician here would ever discuss killing our public system in favor of a for-profit model, as they know they would be trounced out of office --if not tarred and feathered.
The math is very simple: We pay health-care costs. You pay health-care costs plus insurer's profit margins. It doesn't take a genius to figure out which is higher.
Health care is a keystone of our Canadian democracy; we all share the pain, and we all share the responsibility of ensuring everyone gets covered. I suspect most Americans are much in the same vein of thought.
I myself have no complaints with our system, and although certain high-demand procedures like hip replacements do require waits, those are based on urgency of the requirement and not how many dollars you have in the bank. That's very frustrating for some as they want their elective procedures pushed ahead of a poor grandma's urgent requirement because they have a pocketful of money and those are the ones who go stateside and pay for treatment, which is fine. However, the vast majority of Canadians are satisfied with the overall system.
In most provinces there is no health-insurance premium, but here in B.C. we do pay a monthly fee. For my family of six that health insurance fee is $110 per month, which covers all doctor visits, hospital stays, surgical fees, etc. If one makes less than $25,000 per year, those premiums are reduced or eliminated entirely. "
http://tinyurl.com/mfzah7
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 4:00pm
Kidney surgery in Canada: cost to patient $18
"I live in Vancouver, BC. Canada's medical system is a single payer system as many of you know. The monthly premium for a single person is about $40.
Two years ago I developed a bladder infection, so I walked across the parking lot from work to a walk in clinic on my coffee break to see a doctor. The wait was about ten minutes. I presented my medical id card, saw the doctor, was diagnosed, and she wrote a prescription for antibiotics that cost me $18.
There was no bill for the doctor visit. It was covered.
She made an appointment for me with the lab.
I went for the ultrasound, showed my medical id card, and had the ultrasound.
Again no bill for this. It was covered.
...my left kidney very swollen like a balloon, and that she was making an appointment with a urological surgeon for further examination.
Again no bill for this. It was covered.
A week later I saw the surgeon who examined me, looked at the ultrasound results, and told me I needed my kidney removed.
Again no bill for this. It was covered...
Seven months later they called to tell me to be at the hospital because the operating room was available now. The wait was because people with acute life threatening heart disease or cancer who needed immediate surgery were bumped ahead of me. Had my kidney problem become life threatening at any time I would have been in surgery the same day. I went into the hospital the next day, the kidney was removed, and I spent 3 more days in the hospital, and then three months recovering at home.
Again no bill for this. It was covered."
http://tinyurl.com/ln93xy
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 4:11pm
BS
Care to explain how Republicans are holding any of this back when they don't have the votes to stop it in either chamber of Congress?
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 1:40pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Maybe you should read my post. I was referring to ditto heads and others not to congress or the Senate. I am very glad that Rush does not have a vote.
But tell me, how many republicans will vote yes in the Senate on this topic? For the most part all they care about is seeing the downfall of Obama, they could care less about putting together a good healthcare reform bill. They have not worked with him or the democrats on anything yet. Their goal is to vote no and campaign against everything and then if it does not turn out perfectly to say "see, I told you so.." But they will absolutely take no risk of their own, except that risk that things do go well and they were not part of it. Although if things do work out, they will find the propaganda to try and convince folks that it didn't
Posted by Extraneous at 07/22/2009 @ 4:21pm
Anti, Darlaloons question is the same as mine, I didn't call you a coward, but did ask you what your afraid of? Same diff!
Posted by Denise29 at 07/22/2009 @ 4:24pm
Hey, brownie, you're spamming this blog with far too many 1800-character postings.....I don't read most of them but you're on the cusp of disappearing altogether!
Posted by Happy at 07/22/2009 @ 4:25pm
Crisis: Nearly Five Million Adults Have Lost Insurance Since Sept. '08
"A survey of more than 29,000 individuals in June by Gallup shows that 16 percent of Americans over the age of 18 are currently without health insurance. That number reflects what the survey's authors describe as a "small but measurable uptick in the percentage of uninsured adults."
...It should be noted just how comprehensive the Gallup is in recording this data. Officially titled the Gallup-Healthways Well-Being Index, the study involved conducting at least 1,000 tracking interviews each day and 178,000 since the beginning of the year. The maximum margin of sampling error is plus-or-minus one percentage point."
http://tinyurl.com/nfp5yk
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 4:30pm
It takes 27 countries (EU membership) to equal our GDP output.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 11:34am
output?
you mean cds's, cdo's and mbs?
haha.
next.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/22/2009 @ 4:32pm
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 4:30pm | ignore this person | warn this person
you're doing some fine posting.
Posted by emile duBois at 07/22/2009 @ 4:34pm
the CBO just released a study showing that CEOs and other high-level executives make 1/3 of all US income.
so when conservatives talk about how "rich" americans are, and couple that with the fact that 62% of bankruptcies in this country are from medical bills, you really need to ask the question: what does it mean to be "rich" in america?
i'll take the european lifestyle any day of the week...regardless of how much money i make.
money is overrated, folks.
i grow all the food i need. get all my energy from the sun. my water from the rain.
learn how to do it people!
Posted by darladoon at 07/22/2009 @ 4:40pm
But tell me, how many republicans will vote yes in the Senate on this topic? For the most part all they care about is seeing the downfall of Obama, they could care less about putting together a good healthcare reform bill. They have not worked with him or the democrats on anything yet. Their goal is to vote no and campaign against everything and then if it does not turn out perfectly to say "see, I told you so.." But they will absolutely take no risk of their own, except that risk that things do go well and they were not part of it. Although if things do work out, they will find the propaganda to try and convince folks that it didn't
Posted by Extraneous at 07/22/2009 @ 4:21pm
If the Republicans in Congress have any principles at all, they will vote against these unconstitutional efforts to create a socialist and totalitarian govt.
Any Republican who votes for this legislation will find themselves hounded by conservatives to see them voted out of office.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 4:49pm
Tonight's Healthcare Press Conference with President Obama - Tune in at 8pm ET
We're hearing a lot of back and forth about health insurance reform. And it's hard to decipher myth from fact -- especially as Washington heats up with its usual political games and 'who's up', 'who's down' rhetoric.
So, tonight, President Obama is holding a primetime press conference to address the nation about health insurance reform. He will lay out where we are, where we're going, and why health insurance reform matters.
Check back later for advance excerpts of tonight's address. And at 8pm ET, tune in to watch the press conference live at Whitehouse.gov/Live and participate in the live chat on Facebook.
As the President has said, we are closer than ever before to accomplishing comprehensive health insurance reform. And now is not the time to slow down or lose sight of the finish line. Spread the word
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Tune-in/?e=7
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 4:50pm
Check back later for advance excerpts of tonight's address. And at 8pm ET, tune in to watch the press conference live at Whitehouse.gov/Live and participate in the live chat on Facebook.
As the President has said, we are closer than ever before to accomplishing comprehensive health insurance reform. And now is not the time to slow down or lose sight of the finish line. Spread the word
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Tune-in/?e=7
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 4:50pm
As I said, a shill for the DNC
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 4:52pm
you're doing some fine posting.
Posted by emile duBois
Thanks! judybrowni
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 4:53pm
I live in the United States, close to the Canadian border and it is a, not so well kept, secret around here that most of us migrate across the border for our health care needs. the new law requiring us to get passports to go to Canada really put a crimp in many meagre budgets. Because of the idiotic law a buddy of mine died because he couldn't get across to get his diabetic medications. He was among the working poor for Wal Mart. It is correct that canada has a waiting list if you want a tummy tuck, but if you get hit by a trailer truck you get right in.
Posted by julien38 at 07/22/2009 @ 4:56pm
I live in the United States, close to the Canadian border and it is a, not so well kept, secret around here that most of us migrate across the border for our health care needs. the new law requiring us to get passports to go to Canada really put a crimp in many meagre budgets. Because of the idiotic law a buddy of mine died because he couldn't get across to get his diabetic medications. He was among the working poor for Wal Mart. It is correct that Canada has a waiting list if you want a tummy tuck, but if you get hit by a trailer truck you get right in.
Posted by julien38 at 07/22/2009 @ 4:57pm
10 Myths About Canadian Health Care, Busted
By Sara Robinson
I'm both a health-care-card-carrying Canadian resident and an uninsured American citizen who regularly sees doctors on both sides of the border. As such, I'm in a unique position to address the pros and cons of both systems first-hand...
1. Canada's health care system is "socialized medicine." False. In socialized medical systems, the doctors work directly for the state. In Canada (and many other countries with universal care), doctors run their own private practices, just like they do in the US. The only difference is that every doctor deals with one insurer, instead of 150. And that insurer is the provincial government, which is accountable to the legislature and the voters if the quality of coverage is allowed to slide.
...5. You don't get to choose your own doctor. Scurrilously False. For the record: Canadians pick their own doctors, just like Americans do. And not only that: since it all pays the same, poor Canadians have exactly the same access to the country's top specialists that rich ones do. ...9. People won't be responsible for their own health if they're not being forced to pay for the consequences. False...Canadians tend to think of tending to one's health as one of your duties as a citizen.
10. This all sounds great -- but the taxes to cover it are just unaffordable. And besides, isn't the system in bad financial shape? False. On one hand, our annual Canadian tax bite runs about 10% higher than our U.S. taxes did. On the other, we're not paying out the equivalent of two new car payments every month to keep the family insured here. When you balance out the difference, we're actually money ahead.
http://tinyurl.com/c8xh9m
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 5:26pm
What does one say to people who claim to love America, but clearly hate Americans? Nothing....hatred feeds on that which cannot be defended.
Posted by jarshadow at 07/22/2009 @ 5:41pm
Excerpts of the President's Opening Remarks at Tonight's News Conference:
"Even as we rescue this economy from a full-blown crisis, we must rebuild it stronger than before. And health insurance reform is central to that effort.
If we do not reform health care, your premiums and out-of-pocket costs will continue to skyrocket. If we do not act, 14,000 Americans will continue to lose their health insurance every single day.
I realize that with all the charges and criticisms being thrown around in Washington, many Americans may be wondering, "How does my family stand to benefit from health insurance reform?"
We already have agreement on the following areas:
If you already have health insurance, the reform we're proposing will provide you with more security and more stability. It will keep government out of health care decisions, giving you the option to keep your insurance if you're happy with with it. It will prevent insurance companies from dropping your coverage if you get too sick. It will give you the security of knowing that if you lose your job, move, or change your job, you will still be able to have coverage. It will limit the amount your insurance company can force you to pay for your medical costs out of your own pocket. And it will cover preventive care like check-ups and mammograms that save lives and money.
If you don't have health insurance, or are a small business looking to cover your employees, you'll be able to choose a quality, affordable health plan through a health insurance exchange - a marketplace that promotes choice and competition Finally, no insurance company will be allowed to deny you ccoverage because of a pre-existing medical condition.
I pledge that health insurance reform will not add to our deficit."
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 6:20pm
"despite the MSM not reporting any of it or even giving an analysis of it... "
yeah right.
Posted by darladoon at 07/22/2009 @ 6:49pm
Update 5: "This debate is not a game for these Americans, and they cannot afford to wait for reform any longer. They are counting on us to get this done."
Update 4: Doctors have endorsed it! Trust your doctor. The AARP has endorsed it. Really, it's the right thing to do.
Update 3: "What's in it for me?" Um... health security? No matter how many times he tell us that if you like your coverage, you can keep it, the Republicans are just gonna keep lying about it. Same with the "it will be paid for" part. It's critical, and important for those paying attention. But the Republicans are still gonna lie about it.
Update 2: The recovery act has been working, we need more. Inherited an economy that "wasn't ready to work in 21st century." Setting up the backdrop for why hcr is critical to saving the economy. Yup.
pre-presser interview with WaPo editor Fred Hiatt:
I've been in office six months. I think sometimes people forget the fact that I think at this point in Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton's presidency, their major initiative hadn't even gotten off the ground yet. I mean, in some ways we're our own worst enemy because we've gotten so many things done in these first six months, a lot of them dealing with extraordinary circumstances, that the sense is somehow that we have been putting off things that are also important to us. I just can't do everything at once.
And what I've said to Kent Conrad, what I've said to Judd Gregg, what I've said to others is, is that I am very -- I've said this to the Blue Dogs, I said it very early on -- we are serious about this.
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 7:20pm
Update 1: Q2: Reuters, "Why the rush?" Answer: because the people need to have this fixed. Duh.
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 7:21pm
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 7:21pm | ignore this person | warn this person
THANKS FOR BEING DEAR PEERSON
Posted by julien38 at 07/22/2009 @ 7:59pm
Anybody that keeps screaming Socialist, to me, are hiding a deep seated resentment that is probably racial in origins. If not racial, I hesitate to call it classism, but it could start there as well. The reason I hesitate on the classism is because a number of "right wingers" would deny people of your own demographics from having affordable health care if somehow you were convinced you'd have to pay for it. As though it was coming out of their pocket directly. But if racist white people are tricked into thinking that they're carrying people of color, then they'll irrationally oppose anything remotely related to that. Therein lies the deception. I generally feel, in some whites, there is an irrational narcissism. It's as though they feel themselves gods, lords. Of course lords don't have compassion for serfs. Let them perish, I care not. For they are beneath me.
If Obama is successful in repealing Bush's tax cuts for the super wealthy, then I thought there would be over a trillion dollars recouped, possibly 2. That would offset the health care costs. But the average or below middleclass whites, like Joe the Plumber, keep thinking they'll be carrying poor people. This selfish breed astounds me. But they're actually not the ones that will pay more taxes, the rich will have to go back to taxes like in the Clinton administration.
They don't want to do the math. That's what irrational racism and classism does. They are so full of hate towards other "classes" they feel victimized if they think they're supposed to help their fellow man. There are cost saving cuts that can be made to offset the costs but the "lords and gods" can't process the math because they truly want "serfs" to perish. I feel the true rulers of the planet want the same. Born killers.
Posted by Opinionated at 07/22/2009 @ 8:14pm
>>>There will be "something", but it won't be single-payer.
Ergo, many here at "TN" (writers and bloggers alike) will be disappointed. And the Right will scream and bemoan the "doom of America has cometh!!!"
Posted by Mask at 07/22/2009 @ 09:48am<<<
Obama's plan covers 97-98% of Americans, and most of the 2-3% not covered would be "voluntarily resisting" coverage.
To achieve this feet with +60 votes (at least 3 Republicans) is an historic event, marking the end of the health care crisis in America.
Nearly every one who wants coverage will have it, and it includes regulatory reform in which HMOs must cover pre-existing conditions and "compete" with a "free" public option.
As Microsoft has taught us, the "free" option will ALWAYS out-compete the paid option.
And all this without increasing the deficit.
Posted by Metteyya at 07/22/2009 @ 8:14pm
Posted by Metteyya at 07/22/2009 @ 8:14pm
drowning in kool-ade
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 8:24pm
....if racist white people are tricked into thinking that they're carrying people of color, then they'll irrationally oppose anything remotely related to that. Therein lies the deception....
Posted by Opinionated at 07/22/2009 @ 8:14pm
You are a refreshing new batch of stupidity!
Would you be pissed if more than just "racist" white people are carrying people of color? Would you believe most every white person, Asians, Indians, etc. know that they have been carrying people of mostly one color, black.
Where do you think the money for the Great Society that you thrive on came from? Martin Luther King, Jr.? or Nigeria, Liberia or S. Africa?
There can be little doubt that a huge majority of black folks flat out just don't pay ANY Fed. income taxes!
Posted by Happy at 07/22/2009 @ 8:30pm
To achieve this feet with +60 votes (at least 3 Republicans) is an historic event, marking the end of the health care crisis in America.
Posted by Metteyya at 07/22/2009 @ 8:14pm
You can't be serious!
Posted by Happy at 07/22/2009 @ 8:32pm
I pledge that health insurance reform will not add to our deficit."
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 6:20pm
Perhaps the biggest joke in the press conference.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 8:33pm
Anyone that pays attention to what's in the foods can see they're full of agents and poisons that are harmful to us. It is done on purpose and it's done to harm you. Diabetes and other maladies are on the rise. High fructose corn syrup is like crack sugar and, to me, causes obesity and diabetic increases. Monsanto, Archer-Daniels-Midland, and Conagra create substances that replace true nutrition and masquerade for food. If you couple that with the corporational conspiracy to destroy us, which I think is plausible and oh so real, then there's no surprise why affordable health care is so elusive. There is obviously a conspiracy to render everyone but wealthy people without resources to protect their health and well being.
These dark forces are unified in depleting all of our life support resources and are shifting gears rapidly to speed up the pace. It's a dark agenda. Now, many can't click their brain forward to even grasp what I'm saying. I guess their dimensions are limited to just 3. I see and feel another dimension. So do many others. The events of the past 8 years are not coincidental. They were planned and plotted long ago. We've always been attacked and manipulated by dark forces that lurk in secrecy and in the open. What amazes me, however, are those that mindlessly support this darkness. Those that protect this darkness.... and those that purposely or unknowingly block the light.
Quadrillions stolen to feed the darkness, but Health Care is too expensive. Who wants us to die? This is not an over dramitization. Powers and principalities have summoned and counselled with extreme evil and are in the process of unleashing it on the world. The money has been sucked from us like a vampire feasts on human blood. What can we do to stop it?
Posted by Opinionated at 07/22/2009 @ 9:07pm
To achieve this feet with +60 votes (at least 3 Republicans) is an historic event, marking the end of the health care crisis in America.
Posted by Metteyya at 07/22/2009 @ 8:14pm
uh, are you a chicken counter?
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/22/2009 @ 9:08pm
Health care should be our unalienable right as a citizen of this nation. Listening and reading the excuses for not having it make me sick. The only thing between health care and every person in the US is the medical industrial complex and anyone who stands to profit from the status quo. Nothing less than HR 676 is acceptable. Take profit out of health care and make it people before profits.
Everyone should be hold their elected officials feet to the fire. It's doable and if we fail it will be our fault. Everyone can do something to make their voices heard, so just do it.
Posted by elizarnone at 07/22/2009 @ 9:27pm
to my conservative colleagues:
if obama can't create a deficit-neutral budget with healthcare, then how can you justify our current system?
we currently spend more on healthcare, per GDP, than any other country on earth. period.
under our current system, we STILL end up paying for people to use the system, even if they HAVE healthcare.
do you UNDERSTAND that, OR NOT?
i am talking about PEOPLE WHO CURRENTLY HAVE HEALTH CARE WHO ARE BANKRUPTING OUR SYSTEM?
anti-fucking-socialist wants to talk about the fucking constitution?! while our economy goes bust?!
62% of bankrupt folks have healthcare debts.
did you READ that statistic you people?
62%?!
do you want to IGNORE that, or deal with it?
fuck this country, i am so sick and tired of fringe freak republicans, like antisocialist and jomamma, who have no education whatsoever, who have these opinions which are so incredibly crule and obscene, running the show out there in NYC and DC. so sick of it.
single payer NOW, like every other civilized country.
i'm outta here, gotta tend the plants and sit in the tub...
Posted by darladoon at 07/22/2009 @ 11:52pm
folks, even if you want to deny a single payer system, you still end up paying anyways.
say a guy, without health care gets seriously sick, and uses the ER (which republicans reply to, "we already have a socialist system through the ER"), and has no money to cover the bill, and files for bankruptcy. WE pay for HIS bill!
ok? we pay for this guy's healthcare.
and the same goes for people who already pay exorbitant amounts for healthcare. say some woman who has healthcare gets denied chemotherapy and radiation. and gets really sick in her last months, and heads to the ER for the minimum to keep her afloat. and can't afford it. well, WE pay for it.
antisocialist, shit head, how do you propose we deal with situations like that, mr constitution?
oh, i'm sorry? you don't have a reply? you're not really a pragmatist, are you? you're a "strict constitutionalist", i.e. a dumb ass.
Posted by darladoon at 07/22/2009 @ 11:57pm
anyone who uses an ancient document, written by priviledged, white, puritanical, slave-owning, european males, to defend an outmoded system whose modus operandi is to DENY COMPASSION towards our fellow countrymen and women, is inherently immoral, inhuman, and cruel.
Posted by darladoon at 07/23/2009 @ 12:08am
"constitutional"=
congressional representatives denying the wishes of their constituents in the interests of their corporate benefactors.
that's "constitutional" for those like antisocialist and jomamma, the true fascists.
i'm not kidding.
antisocialist, jomamma, and even obama himself, are more interested in pleasing the CEOs than in pleasing their constituents, the very people who pay their salaries and suck their cocks.
fuck capitalism!
Posted by darladoon at 07/23/2009 @ 12:20am
There can be little doubt that a huge majority of black folks flat out just don't pay ANY Fed. income taxes! Posted by Happy at 07/22/2009 @ 8:30pm | ignore
Why don't you go find a homeless, black dude and yell that at him, repeatedly, at the top of your lungs, if that sort of logic gives you a boner. Here in the DC metropolitan area (DC, MD, VA) there is probably a higher rate of black employment than other parts of the country. Those that are employed pay state and federal income taxes. Had that occurred to you? I pay enough in state, federal income taxes, property taxes and sales taxes to pay another persons salary, but there's no return on it now because white politicians and Jewish bankers are stealing it. Capiche?
Let's see: Black people don't work, right? They ALL just sit around looking for some way to get you, Mr. Happy, to pay their way. Does that about cover it? Yeah, I know you all too well. I could site sectors of the country where it's white people who are the majority on welfare and food stamps and live in subsidized housing. Some live in squalor, just like poor blacks. Some live in their cars and RV's. In fact, because there are more white people in the country than blacks, there are more white people on assistance. Add that to the white people and corporations that offshore their earnings and profits, more white people and Jewish people are avoiding paying Federal taxes than blacks. These white crooks game the system. They have the money, but cheat. Do you condone that Mr. Happy? Did you know, Mr. Happy, that in midwestern USA there is quite a bit of white poverty? West Virginia and the Ozarks, Appalachia. Do they pay Fed. taxes? My analysis concludes that more whites don't pay Fed. taxes via unemployment & cheating. Thank you.
Posted by Opinionated at 07/23/2009 @ 12:31am
"I pledge that health insurance reform will not add to our deficit."
Posted by judybrowni at 07/22/2009 @ 6:20pm
Perhaps the biggest joke in the press conference.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/22/2009 @ 8:33pm |
deficits are part of budgets. the united states Government programs give 27.8% of the population (83 million) health insurance according to the U.S. Census Bureau. Public spending accounts for between 45% and 56.1% of U.S. health care spending according to Health Affairs, a peer-reviewed health care policy academic journal. please explain how you know for a fact reducing the amount of money the government spends on health care in our current budget and curbing the projected increases in that spending over the next ten years in addition with whatever taxes the legislation includes to pay for the health care reform bill will not keep the deficit from increasing from health care reform.
Posted by nathantankus at 07/23/2009 @ 04:05am
This debate continues to the point of being sickening. And I don't think United Healthcare will pay for treatment of the disease. Since for profit healthcare and the existing oligarchy created it in the first place.
I can't think of anything more to say that has not been said.
The point boils down to this: "The system is broken, we need to fix it."
But it appears that the conversation always devolves into the childish sandbox of political one upsmanship. Due to the greed of a small group of powermad profit worshiping totalitarian oligarchs.
Posted by chaoszen at 07/23/2009 @ 09:08am
fuck this country, i am so sick and tired of fringe freak republicans, like antisocialist and jomamma, who have no education whatsoever, who have these opinions which are so incredibly crule and obscene, running the show out there in NYC and DC. so sick of it.
i'm outta here, gotta tend the plants and sit in the tub...
Posted by darladoon at 07/22/2009 @ 11:52pm
WOW, and Darla accuses the right of being full of hate. Incredible! Hey Darla, instead of tending to your weed and soaking in the tub, go out and get a job like the rest of us. Btw, speaking of obscene, enough with the f-bombs. Maybe while you are in the tub, you can start with the bar of soap in your mouth.
Posted by fram at 07/23/2009 @ 12:56pm
antisocialist, shit head, how do you propose we deal with situations like that, mr constitution?
oh, i'm sorry? you don't have a reply? you're not really a pragmatist, are you? you're a "strict constitutionalist", i.e. a dumb ass.
Posted by darladoon at 07/22/2009 @ 11:57pm
What an interesting debate tactic. Ask a question of someone; answer for them and then make a conclusion based upon yourself. Who can possibly argue with such brilliant thinking?
Posted by antisocialist at 07/23/2009 @ 2:15pm
Aaahh, the invisible hand VS the divisive hand. The sound of one hand sucker punching your face whilst the other picks your pocket.
Now for the non-rhetorical question any moron can answer-- which is the worser of these worse hands?
Answer: Oh Duh-- BOTH!
The dissonant moaning here from the health insurance heavy-fistedly seduced into dumbass bliss, would have everyone believe-- that their perversion should be a highly prized preference, when in reality, the wide stance required to continue the double fisted torture, is one only a hsuB/cHeney base could depreciate!
Posted by hsuBfools at 07/23/2009 @ 4:20pm
And all this without increasing the deficit.
Posted by Metteyya at 07/22/2009 @ 8:14pm |
I agree that "ObamaCare is better than nothing, but is it really deserving of this type of exultation? That residual 2-3% will continue to raise premiums for the rest of us. Similarly, those with pre-existing conditions will now be able to enroll in drastically more expensive plans. Obama and congress have ZERO interest in preventing cost discrinination.
And the "public option" is hardly the miniaturized single payer system most take it to be. As it stands now, the public option creates 3 tiers of coverage: "basic," "enhanced" and "premium," meaning that one's ability to pay will still determine the quality of their care. The public option is being designed to cover only the essentials. Essentially, ObamaCare provides strictly nominal coverage to 97-98% of the populatio while failing to even hold costs at their current level (at least measured aa % of GDP). Keep in mind that we're achieving this by skimping on healthcare for the elderly. God forbid we should fund the program through progressive taxation! Actually auctioning off carbon credits, complete removal of FICA's income cap, and a couple others could all easily raise the needed funds, and then some. Its amazing how OBama can repeatedly concede the superiority of single payer, then push for such a mind- bogglingly timid proposal. Even his longtime physician has expreessed support for single payer.
Posted by nkurland at 07/24/2009 @ 01:57am
And all this without increasing the deficit.
Posted by Metteyya at 07/22/2009 @ 8:14pm |
I agree that "ObamaCare is better than nothing, but is it really deserving of this type of exultation? That residual 2-3% will continue to raise premiums for the rest of us. Similarly, those with pre-existing conditions will now be able to enroll in drastically more expensive plans. Obama and congress have ZERO interest in preventing cost discrinination.
And the "public option" is hardly the miniaturized single payer system most take it to be. As it stands now, the public option creates 3 tiers of coverage: "basic," "enhanced" and "premium," meaning that one's ability to pay will still determine the quality of their care. The public option is being designed to cover only the essentials. Essentially, ObamaCare provides strictly nominal coverage to 97-98% of the populatio while failing to even hold costs at their current level (at least measured aa % of GDP). Keep in mind that we're achieving this by skimping on healthcare for the elderly. God forbid we should fund the program through progressive taxation! Actually auctioning off carbon credits, complete removal of FICA's income cap, and a couple others could all easily raise the needed funds, and then some. Its amazing how OBama can repeatedly concede the superiority of single payer, then push for such a mind- bogglingly timid proposal. Even his longtime physician has expreessed support for single payer.
Posted by nkurland at 07/24/2009 @ 01:58am
Why do we keep ignoring the obvious. Health care for profit is a total failure. Gluttony is not a good motivation tool when it comes to providing people life saving, life improving tools. Profit without competition simply leads to denial of services. I have relatives that spend their days making six figure salaries denying health services to customers. I spend 10,000 dollars a year so that the CEO of anthem blue cross can make 15.8 million a year. He did turn down his raise this year poor guy. Blackwater has proven that certain things don't work in a free market. Fire dept. police, defense. etc......
Posted by julien38 at 07/24/2009 @ 09:35am
Shame on Obama for continuing to lie to the public when he says "If you have a plan you like, you can keep it." Obama wants to introduce a public option (a prelude to a Single Payer System) which will prompt private employers (large and small) to drop private insurance plans (the 8% penalty is cheaper than what they pay for private healthcare). If you receive your health coverage through a private employer, you will more likely than not find yourself locked into a government plan under Obama's plan. A recent study finds that the House bill would shift 83.4 million Americans from private healthcare coverage to the government plan. This of course is exactly what Obama wants. He claims that "competition" in the field of insurance is healthy. Competition is healthy, unfair competition is not. Private insurers will not be able to compete with the government leviathan that offers lower premiums by rationing services. Doctors, nurses and patients will all suffer. If a single payer system is what Obama wants, then he ought to put the question directly to the American people. My suspicion is that the resounding response will be "no". I respect the president for trying to reform healthcare in America, but the way he and the Democrats have approached this process is sickening.
Posted by kmax at 07/24/2009 @ 11:08am