Torture and the Status Quo

Digby notices that there's a growing Establishment chorus calling for a continuation of the torture regime. This week it's Stuart Taylor in Newsweek. Meanwhile, Obama tells George Stephanopoulos he's not particularly invested in holding those who ordered torture accountable. I can't say that if I were Obama I wouldn't be tempted to make a similar decision: it's easy to justify saving political capital to expend solely on the economic recovery and draw-down in Iraq.

But here's my fear. Remember during the summer, when oil was $140 a barrel, how airlines started charging for each checked bag? It seemed to make sense at the time: bags weigh a plane down and necessitate more fuel consumption. It's possible to ignore that marginal cost when fuel is cheap, but when fuel is very expensive a surcharge seems appropriate. But: have you noticed that fuel costs have dropped 70% and yet airlines are still charging for checked bags? Can you imagine them deciding to stop charging for bags anytime soon?

There's a very, very worrying possibility that this kind of inertia will set in with our torture regime: something born of crisis embeds itself and becomes normalized.

Which is why accountability and investigation are absolutely necessary morally, legally and politically. The torture regime needs to be de-normalized. Short of that, what's needed are a series of immediate actions in the early days of the Obama administration that definitively break with the Bush/Cheney war crimes going forward. Whether the later will be effective without the former is a vexing question (I don't think it will), but if we don't even get the latter, then it's time to really worry.

Comments (24)

1. I travel for a living and when I think airlinesi,I, too think torture.

   Uncomfortable seats, customers reduced to victims by ambivilent employees, late schedules, change surcharges, lost luggage, shrinking plane sizes as passengers increase in size and amounts, reduced number of planes in the fleets and no peanuts because 1 guy out of 250 is allergic.

   Compete torture... 1 airline actualy charges $ 2 for a coke... A coke that Coke Company pays to place on the airlne.

   They are next for a bail out. ATLAS SHRUGGED is here.

   And we are tortured... It will get worse. Makes water boarding look like sychronized swimming.

   Posted by YourJomamma at 01/12/2009 @ 08:11am

2. Or was there another point to the article.

   Posted by YourJomamma at 01/12/2009 @ 08:12am

3. Or was there another point to the article.

   Posted by YourJomamma at 01/12/2009 @ 08:14am

4. Yes...the normalization argument...

   Posted by Thrawn at 01/12/2009 @ 08:22am

5. yeah, jm.

   saving you from yourself.

   Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 08:29am

6. well...yes...obama's number 1 priority is the economy and related issues. in order to get enough repugnants on board the economic recovery train, perhaps torturing issues will get placed on the back burner.

   unfortunate, but probably unavoidable. perhaps obama will play a background, non initiating role in the mess and let an independent counselor and an unhindered justice department do their jobs as they see fit, without recourse to interfering in the process.

   regardless we shall see in the coming months, shall we not?

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 01/12/2009 @ 08:32am

7. On the surcharge, I think we're still paying the "telephone tax" to fund the Spanish-American War, aren't we?

   As for torture, I love the Right's answers to that-

   1. "Bush said we weren't torturing!"

   2. "So what if we are... what's wrong with torturing? Most of it is no worse than frat hazing!"

   3. "They're terrorists...torture may be the only way to stop a nuke from going off in Chicago! Don't you watch '24'???"

   (Wouldn't be so bad if they picked one and stuck with it...but they usually use ALL of them simultaneously!)

   Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 08:41am

8. Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 08:41am | ignore this person | warn this person

   well...the thing about torture is...

   1. its bad. so don't do it...we like to think of ourselves as the good guys, the civilized ones, and i think we are, generally and compared to our islamist terrorist opponents. keeping the good guy image and walking the walk are powerful weapons in the struggle.

   2. if in some "24" like situation, we DO torture someone and avoid a nasty ugly as a result...

   dumbasses should not go arrogantly brag about it...

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 01/12/2009 @ 08:53am

9. And Frosty...YOU are the guy going to save me tom myself?

   You are not even in the game... When you can at least be economicaly neutral(think carbon neutral where you cover your own cost) then you might be in a position to lecture others but until then, you are entertainment.

   You fellow Xanaduans ARE saving you and your family from yourself as you are a net taker from the system.

   Posted by YourJomamma at 01/12/2009 @ 09:01am

10. Posted by ibbleblibble at 01/12/2009 @ 08:53am

    See, I wouldn't mind them being "Kill da bastards" types (like LVLIB)...if they didn't CONTRADICT themselves.

    They want to keep the ideas that "Bush didn't like when he said we didn't torture" and "America doesn't torture people"...

    AND "It's not torture if WE do it" and "Yes, sometimes we might need to do it to save a city or bus station or a fishing boat pier or something!"

    Pick one, guys, atleast.

    Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 09:03am

11. IE... Canadians.....

    Posted by YourJomamma at 01/12/2009 @ 09:03am

12. Sorry, correction-

    "Bush didn't LIE when he said..."

    Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 09:04am

13. and what exactly do i take, jm?

    i was referring to ethics, jm. you know, morals, jm. thou shalt not use electricity in the anus kinda stuff, jm.

    DID YOU KNOW THAT JACK BAUER IS CANADIAN?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 09:16am

14. Pick one, guys, atleast.

    Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 09:03am | ignore this person | warn this person

    yeah...if torture defuses a nuke...

    HUZZAH FOR TORTURE!!!!

    and i'm not so certain torture does NOT get some useful info sometimes...

    but its a slippery slope down which to slide and it would be a mistake to embrace and revel in it - or to make confusing equivocations and butt covering babblespeak justifications...

    but the country is FAR more concerned now about our econimic future, so i don't think obama is going to push this too far if at all now.

    again...independent investigation, justice department doing its job, perhaps civil lawsuits from tortured victims who turned out to be innocent...

    possibilities...and information uncovered thusly could change the situation, make it impossible NOT to pursue something...

    mr. nichols' utopia of impeachment (for any number of issues) is swirling down the potty of political history fast, but you know...i wonder if sensible dems have not figured that with bush control of the justice department and other aspects of the federal bureaucracy by proxy of its komisars and constitutional authority...trying to impeach would have slammed up against a concrete wall of national security and executive priv ad nauseum, and that any lower level officials prosecuted outside impeachment would have been pardoned by W before inauguration day, regardless...

    i understand there may still be some precedentual obstacles to post inauguration prosecution as well, a la the truman case, but if such prosecutions are possible...hard to pardon someone if one is not in power...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 01/12/2009 @ 09:20am

15. money means nothing if your heart has turned to dust.....

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 09:25am

16. Ibble,

    " in order to bring the repugnants on board the economic recovery..." One must first have a plan for econmic recovery. Bush spending is a major problem in the whole mess and I don't see spending 5 times more and govt taking over more of the economy is not a viable plan.

    We are in ATLAS SHRUGGED today and going deeper. It will not work. I have just started re reading the book... We are there...

    Torture may not be the biting issue as it is here on TN. Since many in the US don't consider what we do torture. And add this to no articles regarding the many beheadings and crap that goes on in the world just makes it harder for many to take seriously especially since what took place did reveal what happened in 9 /11....

    This

    Posted by YourJomamma at 01/12/2009 @ 09:38am

17. This

    Posted by YourJomamma at 01/12/2009 @ 09:38am | ignore this person | warn this person

    people like you are among the life's blood of our country. we certainly may not always agree, but i personally like you and respect your profit making abilities, regardless of what i consider your sometimes political retardation.

    i hope that the stimulous plan will work, and if done properly i think it can. THINK it can, as who knows ultimately.

    if the money is spent wisely, ie really actually INVESTED in programs and ventures that will stimulate our economy long term...i think it will be worth the debt it will create.

    but for the sake of our country and our competitiveness we "the people" are going to have to adjust our habits - spend less and less impulsively, save more, expect less in terms of immediate gratification, cease being so willfully, slothfully ignorant about our world, and lower our expectations for short term growth (unsustainable growth, that is).

    personally i can't understand how businesspeople would NOT want a greater government role in some areas such as healthcare and health insurance. it must be a crushing, irritating, and distracting burden on business as it is and were i a business owner i would welcome the gov taking that albatross from around my neck...

    getting more and more off track, here, but as a PS, perhaps i've been watching too much of the history channel's "end of the world" week lately...wondering if we as a species have what it takes to responsibly chart our course, especially if the people of a democracy can sublimate their own personal interests willingly to a higher goal whose results may not be tangible until after most of our deaths...like the survival of the species...

    happy monday, JM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 01/12/2009 @ 09:59am

18. <i>Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 09:16am </i>

    That is a dirty lie, and you will take that back this instant! Jack Bauer is a blue-blooded American! :D

    By the way (hopefully not to fit into the stereotype), did you see 24 last night? There was the usual stuff, but also an interesting side discussion on torture. Interesting (and slightly unexpected) thought from Jack Bauer, no?

    <i>Posted by ibbleblibble at 01/12/2009 @ 09:20am </i>

    I would think that if nothing else, the Administration could at least enable lawsuits on the matter, by making this an exception to whatever existing immunity from suits government officials have. Granted, lawsuits will be a bit tricky; there probably won't be many (if any) class-action suits since the number of people tortured who could get access to our system isn't that vast, and the legal costs might be a deterrent to many of those pursuing indidividual suits.

    Posted by Thrawn at 01/12/2009 @ 10:12am

19. sorry, thrawn, no 24 for me.

    i get enough brain pollution reading the news.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 11:15am

20. ooh,

    larry got his torture porn!

    no wonder your "heart" is so hateful.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 1:33pm

21. well,

    i can watch <i>most</i> cartoons and things like godzilla.

    but anything with realistic violence (so i can still watch old star treks) is off limits for frosty brain.

    i don't want to hurt nor be hurt.

    so why would i watch that for "entertainment"?

    it's ridiculous. i can see bullets enter heads on t.v. but i can't see a vulva.

    stupid humans.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 4:13pm

22. stupid humans.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 4:13pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    caught arnie's classically awful "commando" on AMC last week.

    one of the truly worst flicks of all time, but i watch it religiously when i catch it nonetheless...

    "why don't you let off a little steam..."

    lol

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 01/12/2009 @ 6:39pm

23. i'd rather see vulvas, thank you very much.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 10:35pm

24. oops.

    i don't know what's got into me?

    what i SHOULD have said is "isn't it ironic that one can view carnage on sunday afternoon t.v. but natural reproductive moments are off limits at any hour*?".

    *yes, of course if you pay....

    seems odd to me.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 11:50pm