The Torture Legacy

Today at the gym I happened upon a report[PDF] from World Public Opinion about international attitudes towards human rights. (That's DC for ya.) There's a ton of interesting stuff in it: Palestinians are very suspicious of international bodies imposing human rights standards, the Russians are really not so sold on civil liberties (they're split about 50/50 on whether or not the press should be able to publish "without government control"), and a somewhat shocking 28% of Americans agreed that "there are some religions that people should be allowed to practice in the US."

But that to me was not the most disheartening result. What brought me up short was the section on torture. Interestingly the pollsters decided not to offer the issue as an either/or, but rather gave people three options. In the US, 53% of respondents said "all torture should be prohibited," 31% think we should accept limited torture of terrorists to save innocent lives, while a nutty and sadistic 13% thinks "torture should be generally allowed." While this still means that a slim majority of Americans reject torture (thank God), it also means that a very significant portion of the population now favors a torture regime, one that is facially a violation of Geneva, domestic law, international law, bedrock moral norms, and basic human decency.

For comparison, in Spain, Britain, France over 80% of those polled thought torture should be prohibited; in China the figure was 66%.

I can't find previous polling from pre-9/11 of the same questioning. I suspect it doesn't exist. But I can't help but feel that in a very sick way, the Bush administration and the many torture apologists on the right and in he mainstream press have been quite successful in mainstreaming the unthinkable. We talk a lot about the torture legacy in terms of its affect on the American reputation abroad, the need to reform the institutions that helped carry it out (DOJ, OLC, CIA), and perhaps most importantly in terms of bringing to justice those who crafted and ordered the policy. But there's also a tremendous amount of work to be done among the public, to shift opinion back towards the very simple principle that torture is wrong.

Comments (25)

1. "while a nutty and sadistic 13% thinks "torture should be generally allowed." "

   lets see, based on the coming commentary, who of our regular posters are thirteen percenters...LOL!

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 01/06/2009 @ 9:27pm

2. I wonder how many in the ME think torture ,beheadings, suicided bombings, homicide bombings for starters, should be prohibited.

   My guess is many Americans do not see pantys on heads, having men guarded by women on their periods, or living in clean conditions in a tropical climate complete with a new Koran, 3 squares, electricity and running water as torture ..

   especially since those at Gitmo are living better there than they were in the caves and hills...and even better than our service men in the ME at times...at leat they now have ACLU lawyers...

   My guess is it is all relative.

   Posted by YourJomamma at 01/06/2009 @ 9:27pm

3. Count me as one of those Americans who approve of your version of Torture!!!!!!! Anyone who willingly engages in terrorism on innocent human beings should lose all HUMAN rights period! Only the losers on the left can find ways to sympathize, understand, and even defend the actions of the terrorists they work so hard to protect while spending the rest of their time attacking the victims of terrorism ( Mainly the US and Israel ). The Nation is an embarrassment to HUMANITY!!!!!! Now go hug Hugo Chavez, losers!

   Posted by barry25 at 01/06/2009 @ 9:29pm

4. Those same ACLU lawyers that the Nation loves have defended NAMBLA's right to promote sex with little boys and how to get away with it on the internet. Supposed "free speech rights"! It makes me wonder how many card-carrying members of the ACLU are also card-carrying members of NAMBLA, and better yet, how many employees at The Nation are as sympathetic to pedophiles as they are to the most evil terrorists on the planet? Libs are very sick indiviuals!!!!

   Posted by barry25 at 01/06/2009 @ 9:37pm

5. My guess is it is all relative. Posted by YourJomamma at 01/06/2009 @ 9:27pm

   I'm under the impression what they are talking about is more in the order of waterboarding and physical torture. Considering they don't define torture.

   Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/06/2009 @ 9:45pm

6. Like just about anything concerning human behaviors, a "limited" amount of anything exists...often for very damn good reasons! That's reality. Go ask those 53% to imagine themselves in Mel Gibson's shoes in the movie `Ransom' or the parent of the missing Israeli soldiers held by Hamas how they would feel if someone-in-the-know refuses to talk! Posted by HAPPYLonghorn at 01/06/2009 @ 9:39pm

   That's why we vote on things in masse instead of allowing one person to dictate. It is that way in order to keep peoples personal emotions out of it.

   I just always find it funny, and I am saying this in general not about you Happy, to hear Christians speak about torture positively. Gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling inside.

   Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/06/2009 @ 9:46pm

7. Posted by YourJomamma at 01/06/2009 @ 9:27pm

   you wouldn't last a week at gitmo.

   Posted by frosty zoom at 01/06/2009 @ 9:47pm

8. Anyone who willingly engages in terrorism on innocent human beings should lose all HUMAN rights period!

   Posted by barry25 at 01/06/2009 @ 9:29pm

   are you including cluster bomb designers?

   Posted by frosty zoom at 01/06/2009 @ 9:49pm

9. NAMBLA

   Posted by barry25 at 01/06/2009 @ 9:37pm

   there are some very strange undercurrents in your posts.

   perhaps you should watch less t.v..

   Posted by frosty zoom at 01/06/2009 @ 9:50pm

10. if someone-in-the-know refuses to talk!

    Posted by HAPPYLonghorn at 01/06/2009 @ 9:39pm

    remember, american soldiers get captured, too.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/06/2009 @ 9:52pm

11. why don't you guys go find some flies and pull their wings off?

    fun times.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/06/2009 @ 9:53pm

12. middle ages, here we come.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/06/2009 @ 9:54pm

13. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/06/2009 @ 9:55pm

14. happy, don't be moronic.

    torture doesn't work.

    "He recalled how he nearly suffocated people with rubber masks, how he attached wires to their genitals and shocked them with electricity, how he tore off a man's testicles with a rope.

    "We let them stay in their own excrement," he said, his gold front tooth reflecting the dim lamplight. "When they were very weak, we would take them to disappear."

    Images such as these cast a shadow over the lives of Barrera and other men who served in Battalion 316, a CIA-trained military unit that terrorized Honduras for much of the 1980s."

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/06/2009 @ 10:03pm

15. i bet you guys have pin-ups of jack bauer in your lockers.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/06/2009 @ 10:15pm

16. "According to British lawyer and writer Philippe Sands, Jack Bauer--played by Kiefer Sutherland--was an inspiration at early "brainstorming meetings" of military officials at Guantanamo in September of 2002. Diane Beaver, the staff judge advocate general who gave legal approval to 18 controversial new interrogation techniques including water-boarding, sexual humiliation, and terrorizing prisoners with dogs, told Sands that Bauer "gave people lots of ideas." Michael Chertoff, the homeland-security chief, once gushed in a panel discussion on 24 organized by the Heritage Foundation that the show "reflects real life.""

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/06/2009 @ 10:15pm

17. you guys hate america and everything it SHOULD stand for.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/06/2009 @ 10:16pm

18. It bears pointing out that in Israel, established law allows for torture in general, not just in rare cases. "Nutty and sadistic", as Hayes puts it.

    Posted by syfriendly at 01/06/2009 @ 10:19pm

19. All with whom I disagree and respect, love America but find preachy,under employed über libs extremely annoying and impossible to take seriously,especially with simple minded posts.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 01/06/2009 @ 10:30pm

20. It's curious that they did not define "torture" as part of the survey. Because that is really the crux, isn't it? some people have defined torture as having to listen to rock music. For others, it is "terrorizing prisoners with dogs". What's that? Having a big dog bark at you?

    So, what is torture? Skip the generalities, let's get specific. Waterboarding- that's been done to US military survival school students for more that 20 years. What else?

    Posted by twillie at 01/06/2009 @ 10:32pm

21. john,

    are you ready to be waterboarded?

    o.k., maybe that's a little severe.

    how about living in the dark for a month? i hope you like pantera.

    to you john, america is just an excuse to make money.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/06/2009 @ 10:33pm

22. What an incredibly disturbing report. But in some ways it doesn't surprise me. Unfortunately, there is a fascist streak in the American psyche and I think the report Hayes is referring to pretty much upholds my thoughts on that. I've had conversations with people (some of my own family members) who believe torture is o.k. Most of their beliefs are based on the notion that since our enemies in the middle east torture, it justifies our own use of torture. It is such a reactionary argument to say the least, but it reveals alot about the psyche of fear or the fear of annihilation of the self as to torture the other that still prevails in this country. What they don't get is that they are willing to follow or sink to the level of their so called enemy's darkest behaviour and become what they themselves hate.

    Posted by lltrix at 01/06/2009 @ 10:41pm

23. You know whats really sad? People like HAPPY, Jomamma, barry25, Lvliberty and a host of others are my brothers and sisters. And we are only as strong as the weakest links in the chain.

    When you look at it from the point of view that what is manifest in the universe is just numberless profiles of one face. It is quite disturbing. If you believe as I do that we are all our brothers keeper. Because then all of us are responsible for providing a "leg up" to those of us lacking in the area of spiritual maturity and advancement in order to strengthen the chain.

    None of us is perfect and we all need the "leg up" from someone. I know I do, because I genuinely would like to wring their necks at times.

    Torture is ineffective and morally wrong. Treat others as you would like to be treated is good advice.

    Soldiers were executed in World War 2 using Waterboarding. Waterboarding is not simulated drowning it is drowning plain and simple that has resulted in death in many cases.

    I wonder how many of these advocates of torture claim to be Christians? And why is it that Atheists and Humanists generally condemn it?

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/07/2009 @ 05:51am

24. I wonder how many of these advocates of torture claim to be Christians? And why is it that Atheists and Humanists generally condemn it?

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/07/2009 @ 05:51am

    You bet your bottom dollar a good majoritory are so called "Christian's"..but that term only applies when it suits their purpose!!

    Posted by Caj at 01/07/2009 @ 08:04am

25. Caj, chaoszen, Frosty...

    You guys are right on here... you said it all and you said it right...

    Frosty, you are on a tear!! Go, man, go! I have a personal affinity for humor as the most effective weapon of political discourse; a benign and effective tactic.

    Now, where are CHERMAK and Lowell when you need them? You would think that they would be all over this.

    Posted by ficheye at 01/09/2009 @ 02:08am