Buzzflash
del.icio.us
Digg
Facebook
Mixx it!
RedditEight years after the tragedy of 9/11, I am reposting my introduction to "A Just Response," a collection of The Nation's writings on terrorism, democracy, 9/11 and its aftermath.
As we extricate ourselves from Iraq, and escalate in Afghanistan, it is time to think hard about lessons learned -- and not learned. Why do we have a bloated war budget which could be redeployed, wisely, to fund the rebuilding of our economy and society? Why do we continue to use conventional -- and now counterinsurgency -- warfighting when the lessons of history tell us terrorism is a tactic best combated through common-sense counterterrorism measures, including policing, intelligence, and tough diplomacy. How is is that after some extraordinary media reporting, and brilliant work by CCR and the ACLU, we still debate terrorism's "efficacy"? How do we reclaim our moral compass after years of militarization and degraded discourse? How do too many in our political class justify spending trillions on war, yet balk at spending $900 billion, over ten years, on reforming a dysfunctional healthcare system?
These, and other questions, have and will inform The Nation's reporting, analysis and work. After all, as our esteemed editorial board member Eric Foner writes below, "In times of crisis, the most patriotic act of all is the unyielding defense of civil liberties, the right to dissent."
"A Just Response" by Katrina vanden Heuvel
"On Tuesday morning, a piece was torn out of our world. A patch of blue sky that should not have been there opened up in the New York skyline.... the heavens were raining human beings. Our city was changed forever. Our country was changed forever. Our world was changed forever." So wrote Jonathan Schell in the first issue of The Nation following September 11, 2001.
At The Nation's office, in the aftermath of the attacks on the World Trade Center towers, like everyone else in America we watched television -- horrified, saddened, angry. People wept, and at the same time took notes and got on the phones. For we had an issue closing the next day. We quickly learned that our communications links to the outer world were severed -- our phone lines had run under World Trade Center 7. So, in those first days, we had no incoming calls and the office computer links to the Internet were down. The facts were sketchy and causes of the attack shrouded in a pall of uncertainty thick as the smog rising from the demolished World Trade Center.
The issue that we assembled and put to bed the next day struck a tone and purpose that the magazine has striven to maintain in the past five years. Paying respect to the human reactions of anger, hurt and grief, our editorials in that first week, and in the ones that followed, have made the case for an effective and just response to the horrific terrorist acts. We argued that such a response may include discriminate use of military force but that the most promising and effective way to halt terrorism lies in bringing those responsible to justice through nonmilitary actions in cooperation with the global community and within a framework of domestic and international law. As Richard Falk warned in his indispensable "A Just Response," the "justice of the cause" would be "negated by the injustice of improper means and excessive ends."
As the US military response unfolded in the ensuing days, there seemed to be more questions than answers. Who is Osama bin Laden? What is the involvement of the Taliban? What are we doing in Afghanistan anyway? Did US foreign policy create historic resentments and injustices abroad that spawned the terrible attacks? What is the best way for this country to address the root causes of terrorism? What are the aims of the war on it? What are its limits? What is the potential political and human fallout? Who are our allies? What role should the United Nations play? How to limit civilian casualties and provide humanitarian relief? As autumn in New York merged into Ramadan and Afghanistan's winter, these questions only deepened. It is striking how the essential themes laid out in The Nation in those initial weeks, far from being outrun by events, have gained in resonance.
One of my roles as editor has been to figure out the bridge from personal to political. How do you balance individual grief and anger at the attacks with proportionality, justice and wisdom in response? How do we reconcile legitimate fear of future attacks with protection of civil liberties, and carry on a political debate that doesn't ignore concerns of economic and social justice?
To deal with those complex issues, I was fortunate in being able to call on some of the most respected figures on the progressive left. They responded with a series of thoughtful, informed and provocative essays that have appeared in our pages. Among them: the late scholar-philosopher-activist Edward Said demolishing the clash of civilizations argument; Mary Kaldor on the new wars and civil society's role in halting terrorism; Michael T. Klare on Saudi-US relations and the geopolitics of oil; Ellen Willis on homefront conformity; Chalmers Johnson on blowback and the role of US foreign policy; William Greider on war profiteering; Bill Moyers on Americans' restored faith in government; John le Carré on why this war can't be won. Our regular columnists weighed in with their independent takes. And peace and disarmament editor Jonathan Schell filed a weekly "Letter From Ground Zero"-- lucid, illuminating, frightening, humane essays that advanced the case for sensible and moral nonmilitary actions.
The Nation has a long tradition of providing a forum for a broad spectrum of left/progressive views, which sometimes erupted in spirited debates in those weeks after 9/11. Christopher Hitchens's column, "Against Rationalization," which castigated those on the left who drew a causal relationship between US foreign policy in the Middle East and the terrorist acts, provoked a heated exchange with Noam Chomsky. This exchange ran on our website and drew a raft of comments, with readers almost equally divided. Richard Falk's article "Defining a Just War" also provoked numerous letters pro and con.
As a fog of national security enveloped official Washington and the war front and the mainstream media enlisted in the Administration's war -- flag logos flying -- the need for an independent, critical press seemed never more urgent. The speedy passage of the repressive PATRIOT Act, with scarcely a murmur of dissent in Congress, the secret detentions of more than 1,000 people and the establishment of military tribunals were troubling signs that a wartime crackdown on civil liberties was under way and called for vigorous opposition. Criticizing government policy in wartime is not a path to popularity. Our independent stand on the war and criticism of what we called "policy profiteering" by conservative Republicans in Congress (who sought to use the war as a pretext to push through their own agenda) drew virulent attacks by the pundits and publications of the right, who questioned our patriotism and trotted out the old chestnut of the left's "anti-Americanism."
Such attacks are nothing new. The Nation has always marched to a different drummer, opposing US involvement in the Spanish-American War and World War I and the Vietnam War, while giving all-out support to the US effort in World War II. Former Nation editor Ernest Gruening of Alaska was one of only two senators to vote against the Gulf of Tonkin resolution that led to the Vietnam morass. As Eric Foner wrote in the days after the attacks, "At times of crisis the most patriotic act of all is the unyielding defense of civil liberties, the right to dissent." Also in times of crisis, the enduring concerns of this magazine and progressives take on new relevance: the dangers of American unilateralism, corrosion of civil liberties, authoritarianism in any nation, dependence on Big Oil, military quagmire and the urgent necessity of international law and institutions.
The commentary this magazine has published in the five years since the 9/11 attacks was designed to inform honest debate in this country on key questions that confront us and to enable us to ask hard questions of policy-makers and the media. It is my hope that the ideas expressed here will guide and enrich the policies that will -- and must -- come.
Share this article
Katrina vanden Heuvel
Thoughts on politics, current affairs, riffs and reflections on what’s in the news and what’s not--but should be.
RSS
Typo alert: "....yet balk at spending $900 million, over ten years, on reforming a dysfunctional healthcare system?"
Billions, KvH!
Posted by Happy at 09/10/2009 @ 9:49pm
KvH: As the US military response unfolded in the ensuing days, there seemed to be more questions than answers. Who is Osama bin Laden? What is the involvement of the Taliban? What are we doing in Afghanistan anyway? Did US foreign policy create historic resentments and injustices abroad that spawned the terrible attacks? What is the best way for this country to address the root causes of terrorism? What are the aims of the war on it? What are its limits? What is the potential political and human fallout? Who are our allies? What role should the United Nations play? How to limit civilian casualties and provide humanitarian relief?.........The Nation has always marched to a different drummer, opposing US involvement in the Spanish-American War and World War I and the Vietnam War, while giving all-out support to the US effort in World War II.
Did The Nation raise nearly this many questions for WWII, the one it gave "all-out support to the US effort"? The genesis of which for the US, is the same as 9/11, a sneak attack on America itself. Note the coincidence that in both attacks, appr. 3,000 Americans died!
Posted by Happy at 09/10/2009 @ 9:56pm
KvH: Our independent stand on the war and criticism of what we called "policy profiteering" by conservative Republicans in Congress (who sought to use the war as a pretext to push through their own agenda) drew virulent attacks by the pundits and publications of the right.....
Do we (the Right) get an "Amen" to now call out the Dems in the WH & Congress as "policy profiteers" who sought to use the Great Recession "as a pretext to push through their own agenda".
Repubs may not be as smart as the `elite' Libs......but, we've learned a lot.....glad all that learning are being put into timely use.
Reap what you sow! What goes around, comes around....HAPPY times are here again, time to play offense!
Posted by Happy at 09/10/2009 @ 10:01pm
Here's some good news to refill some of that missing "moral compass" since 9/11/01. From the WSJ today, front page article:
Income Gap Shrinks in Slump at the Expense of the Wealthy
BY BOB DAVIS AND ROBERT FRANK
The deepest downturn in the U.S. economy since the Great Depression may finally shrink the gap between the very best-off Americans and everyone else.
If so, it won't be by lifting up the bottom. It will be by pulling down the top.
....In 2007, the top 1% of U.S. families accounted for 23.5% of all personal income in the U.S., according to economists....expect....will drop to somewhere between 15% and 19% of all income by 2010.....
Less income flowing to the top could have broad effects....Half of U.S. consumer spending came from the top 20% of earners......Another loser: philanthropy....the number of charitable gifts of $1 million or more....fell by more than a third from a year earlier.
=============================
Does the above from WSJ give anyone some inkling of why tax receipts are falling through the floor and the less wealthy are paying a greater share of the taxes that are still going to the Feds?
No such thing as "trickle down voodoo economics", no sir!
Posted by Happy at 09/10/2009 @ 10:20pm
Fuck you stupid rebublicans. You fucked this nation up so bad and have the audacity to challenge Obama!! Fuck all of you! One more time.. rebublicans are IMPOTENT!!! NO POWER!!!
Posted by Tiger2Lover at 09/10/2009 @ 10:38pm
'Does the above from WSJ give anyone some inkling of why tax receipts are falling through the floor and the less wealthy are paying a greater share of the taxes that are still going to the Feds?'
The share of taxes that any group of people pays is immaterial, "Happy." What matters is, first and foremost, what we all get in return for the taxes that we pay. Secondly, it matters whether tax burdens are distributed according to each person's ability to pay.
Under President Obama, a little of our national tax burden has been shifted upward on the income scale - as is right and proper, because rich people are easily capable of paying more. At the same time, revenues are generally down - because of the global recession. Also, rich people as a group are contributing a smaller portion of overall taxes than before - because the income gap has diminished. This does not mean that poorer people are paying more; it only means that the rich, despite Obama's slight tax hike, are paying less.
This should concern us only insofar as lower revenues and projected higher expenses create deficits. But in a recession, creating a deficit is the least of our troubles. The greatest mistake we could make now would be to fail to invest in the real sources of wealth - workers, natural resources, and technology - out of concern that these things would cost us too much money.
As I am fond of saying: Wealth does not come from money. Money comes from wealth. Invest in the true sources of wealth, and you will always have money. Try to save money at the expense of caring for the true sources of wealth, and you will end up losing money.
Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 10:41pm
Happy, yea its just a shame so many leftists can not see how truely ignorant and perverted their ideology is which in turn is just as bankrupt in all its facets as they are becoming monetarily!
However, the unsurpassed entertainment value they provide is priceless!
Posted by BigPasture at 09/10/2009 @ 10:46pm
Under President Obama, a little of our national tax burden has been shifted upward on the income scale....
Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 10:41pm
Have you lost your mind entirely? Re-READ what the WSJ article says.
Both in absolute dollars and % of all taxes, the top 1% are paying LESS!
Personally, I don't care about the absolute dollars the top 1% pays, but I think for them to pay 23+% of all income taxes is ridiculous! Even 15 to 19%, as is projected for next year is too high.
Nothing on taxing has changed, so far, under Magic! Certainly not the tax rates for any income category. What has changed, is smokers are paying an added dollar for every pack they smoke....you must think all 1% of the rich, are chain-smoking 4-packs-a-dayers, huh?
Posted by Happy at 09/10/2009 @ 11:09pm
.....the real sources of wealth - workers, natural resources, and technology....
Posted by JakobFabian at 09/10/2009 @ 10:41pm
You merely scratch the obvious surfaces!
The granddaddy of all "sources of wealth", is the belief in one self, the Ego, as Ayn Rand calls it.
Posted by Happy at 09/10/2009 @ 11:13pm
With respect to what Katrina vanden Heuvel wrote I feel very strongly that bin Laden and his coterie of evil bastards - regardless of the historical underpinnings of what made them powerful and dangerous, where the US has blame - should have been captured or killed in the original Afghanistan invasion, along with all who chose to stand with them.
And that should have been it - no Iraq war, no "war on terror", no politicization and exploitation of the terrible tragedies and violence, none of the garbage that has taken place. The political class and countless operators of all descriptions have used the 9/11 events to pursue their own ends, and the 9/11 events long ago lost their real meaning and became a football.
Really, at the end of the day, all 9/11 amounted to was another circumstance in which non-elites suffered and lost due to the games elites play. Until those who are not rich, powerful, and connected can truly understand that, we will continue to see tragedies like that day.
Posted by syfriendly at 09/11/2009 @ 12:52am
The US threw away its moral compass in Vietnam & hasn't picked it up since.
Posted by sloper at 09/11/2009 @ 12:54am
the response to 9/11 was absurd. what a wasted 7+ years...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/11/2009 @ 04:30am
Do we (the Right) get an "Amen" to now call out the Dems in the WH & Congress as "policy profiteers" who sought to use the Great Recession "as a pretext to push through their own agenda". Posted by Happy at 09/10/2009 @ 10:01pm |
There's a world of difference between "vote for this war supplemental or we'll..." and Dems tying something that Pugs really wanted, like say the Lindsay Graham Memorial Opry, to the stim-u-less.
Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 07:17am
Posted by sloper at 09/11/2009 @ 12:54am |
A moral compass can only tell you where you're headed (Danger, Will Robinson!); I prefer an ethical GPS.
Posted by BigPasture at 09/10/2009 @ 11:30pm |
You calling for intelligent discourse is like a pimp telling one of his stable she can't go out dressed like that.
Posted by Happy at 09/10/2009 @ 11:09pm |
Why Pugs insist on complaining that rich people have all the money in this country is beyond me. You dimwits <i>begged</i> for this distribution of income.
Now live with the tax consequences and shut up already.
Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 07:22am
You merely scratch the obvious surfaces! The granddaddy of all "sources of wealth", is the belief in one self, the Ego, as Ayn Rand calls it. Posted by Happy at 09/10/2009 @ 11:13pm |
Yes, but without any conscience to go with it, you're no better than Jack from Lord of the Flies (sticking with early teen literature, your comfort zone).
Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 07:27am
Snowball,,
We are living with the tax consequences..... The job crewtere and the group that pays the bulk of the taxes us heading for the door because of he policies snd future compass head Obama and the socialists are taking.
And it will get worse. You are convinced going into Iraq ruined the country by spending trillion dollars .... But you don't see spending more trillions here as saving the country. The truth is it will hurt our country in a deeper and worse way
Govt spending comes from wealth created by the economic activity from the profits generated by tax payers and investors. Govt spending generated fom money not yet generated will not increase economic activity on it's own. The money is printed and when spending is stopped so does the evonomc activity. An example is clunker cash. No jobs created from this. No more govt hand out, no more car sales.
As the wealthy continue to retract or get wiped out by punitive taxes that threaten ability to earn a return worth the risk, the more revenue short falls will grow.
And govt will not cut spending but look for other sources of cash .. Z and will find you, the printing press and the ration book.
All this hurts not the wealthy butthe guy in the middle and those on the bottom.
Posted by YourJomamma at 09/11/2009 @ 08:19am
9/11 was a tragedy, but what happened after 9/11 is an even larger tragedy. We lost more soldiers in Iraq (which had nothing to do with 9/11) than we did people in the 9/11 attacks.
We've managed to destroy Iraq and help the opium trade in Afghanistan. If our mission has been to aid and abet the drug lords and create a puppet state in Iraq for oil corporations, than I guess you could say that we've been very successful in our "war on terror".
Here's the question. Who is the "war on terror against"?
Is it against Islam? Is it against Islamic extremists? Is it against enemies of the United States, or is it against enemies of international corporations wanting to play ball in countries like Iraq and Iran? Halliburton's headquarters are now in Dubai. Evidence leads one to think the latter is the answer to who has something to gain by this "war on terror".
Meanwhile, the military industrial complex is bleeding this nation dry with endless stupid ass wars against an unknown, stealth-like enemy. We will be at war for eternity in this case. We have bases all over the globe and for what purpose? How do these bases protect Joe Bob in Alabama or Minnesota? They don't.
Overseas bases are there as a presence to protect overseas businesses. It's about time these businesses started putting some cash into the system that's' been feeding their bottom line before the system gets flattened and they lose their protection not to mention people willing to die for their greedy cause.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/11/2009 @ 08:20am
One more time.. rebublicans are IMPOTENT!!! NO POWER!!!
Posted by Tiger2Lover at 09/10/2009 @ 10:38pm
well,
mr. obama has miscalculated.
he had the opportunity to reign in wall street but chose to do health scare.
now, it may be too late as he is seen as just another crony.
that's some powerful viagara for the "other" party.
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/11/2009 @ 08:28am
Posted by YourJomamma at 09/11/2009 @ 08:19am |
As someone who is fiscally conservative (heck, for a lib, I'm practically a monetarist), I understand the concerns about funding entitlements for $300M...anyone who has put on a big todo like a wedding knows this problem, "...whoa, you wanna invite how many?!"
I think your fundamental problem is focusing on taxpayers and investors without considering labor and its needs as well. Ignoring either side of the great symbiosis of American capitalism has dire consequences.
You're also selling short how much good can be done in our country...as opposed to not done in Iraq. The Chinese have mobilized to work on infrastructure as only commies with a command economy can and are already seeing a pick-up in domestic demand.
It's not about how many rich people won't invest as much as it's about how many not-rich people aren't engaged in the normal spending (sadly, on credit) both here and abroad.
You'll need more than a fervent belief in trickle-down to generate demand, which is what we need to dig out of the hole Mr. Greenspan dug like a shallow grave.
Exactly how punitive is a 15% cap on their gains versus the rates paid by us working stiffs (even us top 1%ers)?
I have a significant chunk of my portfolio in TIPS because there isn't an alternative to the printing press for the situation that neoliberal doctrine has set before us now.
Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 08:30am
"cap on their gains" should be "tax on their cap gains"...
Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 08:32am
newsflash: obama's not taking the military out of Iraq and Afghanistan any time soon.
"timetables" are often wishy-washy...
Posted by urmygyro at 09/11/2009 @ 08:32am
You'll need more than a fervent belief in trickle-down to generate demand, which is what we need to dig out of the hole Mr. Greenspan dug like a shallow grave.
Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 08:30am
dude,
look at this:
http://market- ticker.denninger.net/uploads/KeyCharts/FuckUsCreditAndDebt.png
that grave is very deep. there's not enough money to pay back all this debt. until large portions of the banking system are declared insolvent where are just forestalling. each day we wait makes the reckoning all the more painful.
if they try to pump another asset bubble, the next time it bursts it will be catastrophic.
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/11/2009 @ 08:44am
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/11/2009 @ 08:44am |
Whatchoo mean, "if", Frosty?
What do you think TALF and the Geithner plan are but bubble machinations?
As for which banks are in 'denial'...
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssBanks/ idUSN1029137520090910
The 'shallow grave' comment was an allusion to the feverish nature of the digging for same, but to keep 'morbidity' in play, I'll characterize the current approach to the credit and housing crises as similar to refusing to remove a corpse and instead purchasing a long string of increasingly less efficient air fresheners.
Sadly, my local hardware store isn't big on stocking pitchforks (but I'm sure I can find one for low, low prices at a big box store).
Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 08:59am
To date, the fundamental lesson of 9/11 - that we reside in a larger world - has largely been squandered.
Instead of rethinking our international relationships, what 9/11 could have taught us was frittered away by an administration that manipulated the horrible events of that into unnecessary war and the sullying of the United States abroad through its use of torture.
Now we find ourselves in a new era of American politics, yet the same sort of thought processes fester and render putrid our national discourse and international actions.
We need to stop functioning on the level of the limbic cortex and start engaging the higher thinking brain.
We each need to find a calling greater than ourselves and our selfish needs, both as individuals and as a nation.
Posted by skeletonman at 09/11/2009 @ 09:19am
if they try to pump another asset bubble, the next time it bursts it will be catastrophic.
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/11/2009 @ 08:44am
Frost, I went to that link but saw what appeared to be conversations (which had to be translated from Russian...I think). Is that the correct link?
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/11/2009 @ 09:22am
This is a good time to ask what can the worldwide Islamic community, the Umma, do to improve its tragically tarnished reputation.
Does anybody here have any ideas?
Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 09:35am
Meanwhile, the military industrial complex is bleeding this nation dry with endless stupid ass wars against an unknown, stealth-like enemy.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/11/2009 @ 08:20am
And, "we" are still funding these "wars" through supplemental appropriations - "emergency" appropriations.
Posted by OneVote at 09/11/2009 @ 09:43am
Posted by Tiger2Lover at 09/10/2009 @ 10:38pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I've said it before,
Oh grow up.
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 09:49am
Posted by syfriendly at 09/11/2009 @ 12:52am | ignore this person | warn this person
they knew very well that capturing Bin Laden was unlikely at best.
to capture one man in a country the size of Texas, in a population which revered him. I don't think so.
like trying to capture the pope in a huge country of the catholic persuasion.
not to mention that the neighboring country with which it shares an "ungovernable" border, supported Bin Laden, and no doubt welcomed him with open arms.
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 09:55am
With all due respect to A. Cockburn, on this 911 anniversary, if you haven't seen it before, go to the Frontline website (past programs) and check out "Bush's War", part 1, March 24 2008.
Save yourself some time by fast forwarding to 4 mins. into the video, let it run for about 20 seconds, then rewind back to the four minute mark and look at it again, and again, and again.
The Pentagon explodes, but there is no airplane. Ask yourself, who are you going to believe, the MSM, or your own "lying" eyes?
Posted by Buddy33 at 09/11/2009 @ 10:09am
>>>Did US foreign policy create historic resentments and injustices abroad that spawned the terrible attacks? What is the best way for this country to address the root causes of terrorism? What are the aims of the war on it? What are its limits? What is the potential political and human fallout? Who are our allies? What role should the United Nations play? How to limit civilian casualties and provide humanitarian relief?<<<
These are STILL important questions, and after we get past this "Obama will not keep America safe" issue, we should get our best minds together and answer these questions.
Posted by Metteyya at 09/11/2009 @ 10:16am
not to mention that the neighboring country with which it shares an "ungovernable" border, supported Bin Laden, and no doubt welcomed him with open arms.
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 09:55am | ignore this person | warn this person
please inform us on how the bin Laden family was welcomed into Afghanistan and Pakistan in the first place.
Posted by OneVote at 09/11/2009 @ 10:17am
This is a good time to ask what can the worldwide Islamic community, the Umma, do to improve its tragically tarnished reputation. Does anybody here have any ideas? Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 09:35am |
Go shopping?
Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 10:20am
Overseas bases are there as a presence to protect overseas businesses. It's about time these businesses started putting some cash into the system that's' been feeding their bottom line before the system gets flattened and they lose their protection not to mention people willing to die for their greedy cause.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/11/2009 @ 08:20am
That you were in the military and can make such an ignorant statement is mind boggling.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 10:20am
All I can say is you detestable TRAITOROUS LIBZ better hope and pray to whatever you pray to we dont get hit again while this ASSHOLE of a so-called president bows to kings and weakens our defenses...
You will see a rage in this country that has not been seen since the civil war....you LIBZ are treading on very dangerous ground right now...
The backlash against you TRAITORS will be swift and very very UGLY...
The true PATRIOTIC americans have NOT forgotton your treasonous actions the past 8 years and in someway I feel sorry but you deserve what you have sown...
Pray it doesnt happen
Posted by libzRfreaks2 at 09/11/2009 @ 10:30am
Congratulations Katrina.
This thread at least shows that while you are completely and utterly wrong, at least you are consistently wrong.
Self defense is the core characteristic of our being. Even the animal kingdom is not stupid enough to be suicidal.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 10:30am
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 10:30am |
Self-defense and 'fight or flight' only reasoning is better left in the animal kingdom.
We differentiate ourselves from the animals most when we cooperate and communicate.
Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 10:34am
This is a good time to ask what can the worldwide Islamic community, the Umma, do to improve its tragically tarnished reputation. Does anybody here have any ideas? Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 09:35am |
this garbage again?
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 10:38am
The Pentagon explodes, but there is no airplane. Ask yourself, who are you going to believe, the MSM, or your own "lying" eyes?
Posted by Buddy33 at 09/11/2009 @ 10:09am | ignore this person | warn this person
Whatever it was, it was no airliner. The testimony of some of our best pilots in the world trained by the Navy and the Airforce indicate that flying such a trajectory at such a low altitude would have been without doubt beyond the ability of a pilot whose experience was on flight simulators. Our world's best pilots even question the reported flight path and banking procedure necessary to direct the airliner to its approach. Now where is that black box?
Posted by OneVote at 09/11/2009 @ 10:39am
Self-defense and 'fight or flight' only reasoning is better left in the animal kingdom.
We differentiate ourselves from the animals most when we cooperate and communicate.
Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 10:34am
How do you cooperate with someone who is trying to kill you?
Sorry, your response is either naive (which I don't believe) or you choose to ignore reality.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 10:49am
Today, in memory of those who died, esp. those in NYC, I sold stocks and contributed some commissions to those carrying on the business of Wall St.
On one, a fin. services co. I liquidated entirely (but finally broke even on...no, not AIG...much, much smaller and unknown for the most part) and the partial sale of another, a micro-cap which I'm embarrassed to say how profitable it was.
Posted by Happy at 09/11/2009 @ 10:56am
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 09:55am
But he does have that tall hat.
Posted by skeletonman at 09/11/2009 @ 10:58am
This is a good time to ask what can the worldwide white people, do to improve their tragically tarnished reputation after the holocaust? Does anybody here have any ideas? Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 09:35am |
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 11:02am
This is a good time to ask what can the worldwide white people, do to improve their tragically tarnished reputation after the holocaust? Does anybody here have any ideas? Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 09:35am |
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 11:02am
1. Attack and destroy the Third Reich.
2. Compensate the victims and build them a haven in Israel.
3. Capture and put on trial the odious little Austrian who started the whole thing.
Well, two out of three...
Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 11:08am
But he does have that tall hat. Posted by skeletonman at 09/11/2009 @ 10:58am | ignore this person | warn this person
I presume you mean the pope, who has many hats. have you ever seen Fellini's Roma? the ecclesiastic fashion show is a pip, as we say in the Vatican.
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 11:12am
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 11:12am | ignore this person | warn this person
The Vatican fashion show scene is beautiful satire of both the Catholic and Italian cultures. Roma is a great old film, though I prefer 8 1/2.
Posted by syfriendly at 09/11/2009 @ 11:22am
the ecclesiastic fashion show is a pip, as we say in the Vatican.
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 11:12am
The truth comes out! Despite all of his rantings here about Christianity, it turns out that JR (Emile) works at the Vatican.
Who would have guessed?
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 11:28am
"How do you cooperate with someone who is trying to kill you?"
all the evidence we need to know that antisocialist is not a christian.
Posted by darladoon at 09/11/2009 @ 11:31am
"How do you cooperate with someone who is trying to kill you?"
all the evidence we need to know that antisocialist is not a christian.
Posted by darladoon at 09/11/2009 @ 11:31am
Really? What is unchristian about not wanting someone to murder you?
I look forward to your explanation.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 11:32am
"How do you cooperate with someone who is trying to kill you?"
all the evidence we need to know that antisocialist is not a christian.
Posted by darladoon at 09/11/2009 @ 11:31am
Also Darla, since the context was jihadists wanting to kill all Americans, how does Christianity even apply to all the rest of Americans who are not Christian?
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 11:34am
"The job crewtere and the group that pays the bulk of the taxes us heading for the door because of he policies snd future compass head Obama and the socialists are taking"
(quote of the day, especially for the tag line "obama and the socialists")
i guess "socialism" in maasch's mind means 'taking extremely incremental measures to reverse the most egregious of bush's economic policies'....
rather than what "socialism" actually is:
"Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating state, public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with an egalitarian method of compensation.[1][2][3] Contrary to popular belief, socialism is not a political system; it is an economic system distinct from capitalism."
if only we *socialistic* then this recession never would have happened.
maasch never fails to demonstrate his complete ignorance of all things non-financial. but he would be a fantastic guest on cavuto!
Posted by darladoon at 09/11/2009 @ 11:36am
Self defense is the core characteristic of our being. Even the animal kingdom is not stupid enough to be suicidal.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 10:30am
So Larry - you are descended from angels. Which one - Lucifer?
Posted by OneVote at 09/11/2009 @ 11:39am
"Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating state, public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with an egalitarian method of compensation.[1][2][3] Contrary to popular belief, socialism is not a political system; it is an economic system distinct from capitalism."
if only we *socialistic* then this recession never would have happened.
maasch never fails to demonstrate his complete ignorance of all things non-financial. but he would be a fantastic guest on cavuto!
Posted by darladoon at 09/11/2009 @ 11:36am
So taking over 2 of the nations automakers (means of production), the largest insurance company in the world (AIG), and mandating (another term for totalitarian) control of a service sector of the economy, with management control by Federal Health Czar and his/her commission, is not socialist under the definition you just provided?
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 11:40am
Posted by syfriendly at 09/11/2009 @ 11:22am | ignore this person | warn this person
of course. that is his chef d' oeuvre, his masterpiece. next time you see it pay special attention to the music.
one of my, unknown to most, favorites is Il Bidone.
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 11:40am
"Really? What is unchristian about not wanting someone to murder you?"
i just love the backpedalling here.....now it's a question of not wanting to be murdered, as opposed to refusing to engage the murderer with violence (or murder).
again, antisocialist, you aren't anywhere close to being a christian as envisioned by Christ (the only true Christian who ever lived, if he actually did live).
if jesus were around to day to witness your enthusiastic support for the radical conservative politicians of the USA, then he wouldn't stop vomiting.
Posted by darladoon at 09/11/2009 @ 11:40am
So Larry - you are descended from angels. Which one - Lucifer?
Posted by OneVote at 09/11/2009 @ 11:39am
Humans have no linkage with angels. We are completely separate beings in G-d's kingdom.
Poor sarcasm on your part.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 11:41am
"So taking over 2 of the nations automakers (means of production), the largest insurance company in the world (AIG), and mandating (another term for totalitarian) control of a service sector of the economy, with management control by Federal Health Czar and his/her commission, is not socialist under the definition you just provided?"
not even close, anti. not even the same solar system!
Posted by darladoon at 09/11/2009 @ 11:43am
btw, bush had czars, too.
Posted by darladoon at 09/11/2009 @ 11:43am
"We are completely separate beings in G-d's kingdom."
anyone who makes claims like the above cannot be trusted to make claims in reality....
Posted by darladoon at 09/11/2009 @ 11:45am
Posted by darladoon at 09/11/2009 @ 11:40am
Darla, you are incredible!!!! I mean it with a point of recognition.
You are truly the queen when it comes to surpassing all of your previous ignorant posts.
You criticize others for beliefs (Christianity) that you neither understand nor give any credibility to, and even deny the history that proves Jesus lived.
Words cannot begin to fully express just what you truly are. But I'm sure that someone, somewhere can develop a term that adequately defines your level of ignorance.
Go chew another brownie.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 11:45am
'You will not be joined with them in burial, because you have destroyed your land, you have slain your people'
Isaiah 14:3-20
Posted by OneVote at 09/11/2009 @ 11:47am
How do you cooperate with someone who is trying to kill you? Sorry, your response is either naive (which I don't believe) or you choose to ignore reality. Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 10:49am |
By doing your level best to prevent them from doing so long enough to convince them that they don't need to kill you or they die a slow and lonely death.
In the case of radical Islam, more and better intelligence work with the occasional strategic wetwork mission for our best operators.
Ask the Brits, who had a really good op go tango uniform because of Cheney, they may have pointers.
Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 11:51am
"We are completely separate beings in G-d's kingdom."
anyone who makes claims like the above cannot be trusted to make claims in reality....
Posted by darladoon at 09/11/2009 @ 11:45am
You believe that angels and humans are the same? Or perhaps you believe that humans can become angels?
1 Peter 1:12
To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things which angels desire to look into.
Peter writes that G-d through His Holy Spirit reveals to believers things that Angels desire to know. In other words, the children of G-d have a ranking with G-d higher than angels.
1 Corinthians 6:3
Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 11:55am
you know, since this thread is about 9.11, and since today is the 8th anniversary of that horrible day, i'm going to just stop arguing now.
Posted by darladoon at 09/11/2009 @ 12:02pm
if jesus were around to day to witness your enthusiastic support for the radical conservative politicians of the USA, then he wouldn't stop vomiting.
Posted by darladoon at 09/11/2009 @ 11:40am
Gotta Love that one Darla. Actually, I think it would be coming out both ends if Jesus had to listen to all of Liv's reasons for killing people in other countries.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/11/2009 @ 12:21pm
New York Times -- 11 September, 2001 -- Dinitia Smith:
' ..''I don't regret setting bombs,'' Bill Ayers said. ''I feel we didn't do enough.''...He writes that he participated in the bombings ... of the Capitol building in 1971, the Pentagon in 1972.... ''Everything was absolutely ideal on the day I bombed the Pentagon,''...So, would Mr. Ayers do it all again, he is asked? ''I don't want to discount the possibility,'' he said....'
Old Farmers Almanac:
Weather on 11 September, 2001: Mean temperature 21C, Visibility 16km
Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/11/2009 @ 12:22pm
antisocialist-All that Christians know is what is in the Bible,but cannot agree on how to interpret it.It seems odd that angels would have even less information than you have.
Posted by i'm nobody at 09/11/2009 @ 12:47pm
antisocialist-All that Christians know is what is in the Bible,but cannot agree on how to interpret it.It seems odd that angels would have even less information than you have.
Posted by i'm nobody at 09/11/2009 @ 12:47pm | ignore this person | warn this person
"'You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God; I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'"
Isaiah 14:3-20
Posted by OneVote at 09/11/2009 @ 1:00pm
Hey Katrina, here's an idea. Why don't you connect Osama Bin Laden, invite him to your place for a glass of milk and some apple pie and ask him how to regain your moral compass?
Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/11/2009 @ 1:02pm
Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/11/2009 @ 12:22pm | ignore this person | warn this person
despicable use of our national tragedy to score cheap political points. Yecch!
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 1:36pm
Now we find ourselves in a new era of American politics, yet the same sort of thought processes fester and render putrid our national discourse and international actions.
Posted by skeletonman at 09/11/2009 @ 09:19am
the second half of this statement disproves the first half.
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/11/2009 @ 1:48pm
Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/11/2009 @ 1:02pm
He's unavailable. He's holed up incognito in a Dallas hotel waiting for some family members to deliver him some BBQ.
Posted by Sorelish at 09/11/2009 @ 1:49pm
try this, wolfgang:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/debt-income
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/11/2009 @ 1:51pm
a so-called president bows to kings
Posted by libzRfreaks2 at 09/11/2009 @ 10:30am
http://israelinoklahoma.files.wordpress.com/2009/0 4/bush-abdullah-21.jpg
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/11/2009 @ 1:58pm
Even the animal kingdom is not stupid enough to be suicidal.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 10:30am
or make cluster bombs.
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/11/2009 @ 1:59pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/11/2009 @ 1:51pm
Thanks Frosty. Kind of a grim graph. I noticed that the income was waaaay below (and flat) in comparison with the the debt plots. Reversing those tendencies won't come from slightly tweaking the economy. A complete overhaul might not even reverse those numbers. We're screwed.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/11/2009 @ 2:03pm
How do you cooperate with someone who is trying to kill you?
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 10:49am
" So the soldiers took charge of Jesus. Carrying his own cross.........."
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/11/2009 @ 2:07pm
we are at the beginning of a new technological age, the age of wireless (and ubiquitous) digital communication. I expect great economic opportunities to come along with this.
just injecting a not of optimism here. you can do the same for me sometime.
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 2:14pm
we are at the beginning of a new technological age
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 2:14pm
But the same could be said of the year 1914...
Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 2:29pm
Now where is that black box? Posted by OneVote at 09/11/2009 @ 10:39am
Disclaimer: I do not believe in any conspiracy on 911
Watch out OneVote! Even among the liberals on this blog the mere mention of any improprieties that may have happened on 911, and this includes ineptitude, bad planning, or just good old fashioned screwing up... will start a ruckus about how you are a 'conspiracy theorist' and then a cascade of fawning acknowledgments.
Even comments about Cheney being distracted and incompetent on that day don't gain much traction, and that's truly a mystery. How did a country with such a technological edge fail so completely when attacked by a bunch of dudes with box cutters?
"Don't make me think about it" seems to be the usual response. I can understand that logic, in a weird sort of way. Like walking to school and getting lost on purpose.
With no equivocation or disingenuousness, my heart goes out to those who were killed and their families.
But to never question the official version at all in light of the crazed behavior of that administration which was called to account on so many other issues (sort of), is a sad thing indeed. Kisa pou'n fe?
Posted by ficheye at 09/11/2009 @ 2:46pm
'despicable' -- emile duBois
The quote I posted was from a New York Times article by Dinitia Smith that was published before the attacks on September 11 (the September 11, 2001 issue was printed before the attacks that morning), so you must be referring to some other national tragedy than the one Ms. Vanden Huevel is discussing. What tragedy would that be, the Tonkin Gulf incident? The assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem? The 1979 hostage crisis? The stock market bubble of the 1990s? President Truman's seizure of the steel mills? The Dust Bowl? The Bay of Pigs?
And how, exactly does a quote from William Ayers score political points? Does William Ayers have any connection at all with any politicians?
Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/11/2009 @ 2:49pm
Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/11/2009 @ 2:49pm |
"Remember the Maine! To hell with Spain!"
Posted by snowball777 at 09/11/2009 @ 2:56pm
Does William Ayers have any connection at all with any politicians? Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/11/2009 @ 2:49pm
Hey, weren't he and the president 'palling around' according to 'she-who-was-once-governor'?
Posted by ficheye at 09/11/2009 @ 3:02pm
Honestliberal, just ignore emile duBois. When somebody on this blog throws out insults and ad hominem instead of actually saying something constructive, they've essentially conceded your point. Hitting back is just getting in the gutter with them.
Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 3:08pm
It is sickening the way the Americans whine year after year over a few deaths on 9/11. Christ, 18,000 die each year due to no health care, and Americans cry like babies over a few, insignificant deaths.
What would Americans do if they were invaded like Russia was and lost 50 million lives from '41 to Stalin's end in '56?
What would Americans do if they lost 10% of their population like the Vietnamese did in an immoral war?
What would Americans do if a country like Israel controled access, water, electricity, then killed thousands of their citizens when they tried to fight back?
What would they do - they would whine, then they would go shopping. American is a joke.
Posted by LarryB at 09/11/2009 @ 3:11pm
'Hitting back is just getting in the gutter with them.' -- Mistral
I wasn't getting in the gutter, I was making fun of emile duBois' post. If it gets emile's knickers in a twist to imagine somebody - Katrina Vanden Huevel, for instance - looking up from their morning paper, which has an article about William Ayers bragging about bombing the Pentagon, and seeing on the television ANOTHER explosion that very minute at the very same place, then I say, along with the Monty Pythons, let us 'taunt him a second time'!
Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/11/2009 @ 3:16pm
let us 'taunt him a second time'!
Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/11/2009 @ 3:16pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Heh, that "odious little Austrian" remark must have really twisted emile duBois' nipples.
Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 3:48pm
Posted by ficheye at 09/11/2009 @ 2:46pm | ignore this person | warn this person
The persons who lost loved ones, friends and relations are the ones who most ardently cry out for explanation. The anti-truthers who parade on this blog as progressive and liberal display a most disturbing hypocrisy with regard to advocacy of government accountability.
My thoughts and prayers go out to the 9/11 victims and their families. Numerous polls indicate that most Americans do not buy the government's account. I believe that sincerity is measured by deeds (pressure for accountablility), not by bullshit and "hush hush sweet Charlotte."
Posted by OneVote at 09/11/2009 @ 4:01pm
Numerous polls indicate that most Americans do not buy the government's account.
Posted by OneVote at 09/11/2009 @ 4:01pm
How many people here believe the government lied about 9/11?
How many people here believe President Obama lied in his healthcare speech?
Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 4:11pm
Posted by LarryB at 09/11/2009 @ 3:11pm
Since you obviously hate this country, leave.
And it's not nice to reinvent history.
Go push your anti-American and Anti-semitic hate somewhere else.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 4:18pm
Posted by Mistral at 09/11/2009 @ 4:11pm | ignore this person | warn this person
As to 9/11 - assuming you don't know, and that your question isn't rhetorical, check out Zogby, CNN, MSNBC, Scripps Howard, Hudson, and Reuters for starters.
Posted by OneVote at 09/11/2009 @ 4:27pm
This poem appeared in Ovi Magazine.
"the day of the movie"
by Bohdan Yuri
2006-12-06 10:01:22
towers on fire crimpling steel, sucked into the vortex of death. souls falling dying one by one and in bunches on each floor,
left behind, the hollow walls of what once was. suspended as in eternity, ghostly, trembling from what was below, crumbled bodies and parts of whatever innocence still pretended to believe.
the remains,
that night the sky was filled with the residue of ghosts, spreading with the current into the farthest reaches of any civilization that cared.
September 11, 2001, was not like any other day, on that date, America was in a real horror movie.
Posted by onekoleso at 09/11/2009 @ 5:04pm
All I can say is you detestable TRAITOROUS LIBZ better hope and pray to whatever you pray to we dont get hit again while this ASSHOLE of a so-called president bows to kings and weakens our defenses...
You will see a rage in this country that has not been seen since the civil war....you LIBZ are treading on very dangerous ground right now...
The backlash against you TRAITORS will be swift and very very UGLY...
The true PATRIOTIC americans have NOT forgotton your treasonous actions the past 8 years and in someway I feel sorry but you deserve what you have sown...
Pray it doesnt happen
Posted by libzRfreaks2 at 09/11/2009 @ 10:30am
Welcome.
You represent your camp well, and keep up the good work.
BTW, still chained to the radiator?
Posted by schnellerheinz at 09/11/2009 @ 5:43pm
It is sickening the way the Americans whine year after year over a few deaths on 9/11. Christ, 18,000 die each year due to no health care, and Americans cry like babies over a few, insignificant deaths.
sickening.and ignored.
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 6:02pm
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/11/2009 @ 08:20am | ignore this person | warn this person
From Wikipedia:
"In his 1935 book, War Is a Racket, Butler presented an exposé and trenchant condemnation of the profit motive behind warfare. His views on the subject are well summarized in the following passage from a 1935 issue of "the non-Marxist, socialist" magazine, Common Sense – one of Butler's most widely quoted statements:
"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."[26]
General Smedley Butler, USMC, "Common Sense", 1935
Posted by schnellerheinz at 09/11/2009 @ 6:08pm
But, what would HE know?
Posted by schnellerheinz at 09/11/2009 @ 6:10pm
Posted by schnellerheinz at 09/11/2009 @ 6:08pm
Yeah, our commercial interests create & leave behind "patriots" wherever we go.
If it's good for United Fruit...
Posted by Sorelish at 09/11/2009 @ 6:25pm
Mistral,
You asked:
".......How many people here believe the government lied about 9/11?
How many people here believe President Obama lied in his healthcare speech?......."
Answer to #1: The government did not lie about 9/11. Actually, there is no need for a "government explanation" about 9/11, anyway. It is not only in the public record, it is on live television.
On the September 11 Television Archive web page, there are videos of the live television broadcasts from that morning.
http://www.archive.org/details/sept_11_tv_archive
On the ABC broadcast, the second aircraft is clearly seen attacking the South Tower (2 World Trade Center) live as it happened. The anchors were talking about the fire in Tower 1 and the picture on the screen was of lower Manhattan with the Trade Center, when suddenly the second aircraft appeared and hit the South Tower.
Sometime after 9/11, Popular Mechanics did a lengthy article on how the towers collapsed and how this was possible due to how the towers were constructed, thus debunking the conspiracy theorists that say such a collapse would have been impossible without it being done on purpose.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/ technology/military_law/1227842.html
Terrorists attacked us on 9/11 to kill us. The government did not plan it or intentionally make it happen or allow it to happen.
Answer to #2: Technically Obama did not lie. He engaged in sleight of hand and shiftiness. Case in point- he proclaimed that the government will not make people give up or change what they have now.
Of course, what they have now won't be available, because the government plan would undercut the insurance companies in unfair competition, and the insurance companies will be driven out of the market. Then Obama will have what he wants, anyway.
Posted by sjchermak at 09/11/2009 @ 7:04pm
"It is sickening the way the Americans whine year after year over a few deaths on 9/11. Christ, 18,000 die each year due to no health care, and Americans cry like babies over a few, insignificant deaths.
sickening.and ignored."
Too bad you were not on the 80th floor in tower 1 in sept 11th...
Your lack of decent human empathy will be viewed by GOD as a one-way trip to hell...
GOOD RIDDANCE YOU FILTHY SCUM BITCH
Posted by libzRfreaks2 at 09/11/2009 @ 7:19pm
Posted by sjchermak at 09/11/2009 @ 7:04pm
Still think that LibzRfreaks2 is a 'liberal' posing as a right winger?
Posted by ficheye at 09/11/2009 @ 7:28pm
HonestLiberal , not honest and decidedly not liberal.
don't play innocent, I don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
any other day this may have passed, but not today.
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 7:38pm
KVH asks: >> How do we reclaim our moral compass eight years on<<
Who is we? There is a big difference between America's moral compass and that of the people of The Nation. Katrina speaks for her crowd, but not for this country.
What was lost on 9/11 were 3,000 innocent people, not this country's moral compass. The Nation folks still think, the problem was not the terrorist hijackers and Islamists, but this country. Many of them remain convinced that the Mossad or CIA were behind the attack. Some moral compass.
Our moral compass under George Bush was splendid. When problems arose at Abu Graib and Guantanamo his admin. exposed and repaired the practices, instead of covering them up. When he met with foreign leaders he reminded them of their human rights violations and urged democratic governance.
Obama's virtue is to bow from the waist to kings. To flatter caudillios like Chavez and to offer to sit down with the raunchiest scoundrels in the world. When speaking to the Arab world in Egypt Obama appologized for America, praised Muslim civilization, and did not say moo about 250,000 murdered and 3 million ethnically displace Darfurians across the border by the brethren of his audience. That is the moral compass Katrina admires..
10.5 million Iraqis went to the polls at the risk of their lives yet she wanted to abandon them to an insurgency which openly declared, democracy, freedom of speech, religious toleration and gender equality, hateful to Allah. They specialized in ramming exploding cars into civilian crowds. At issue were the core US values. Katrian, the Left and Obama, demanded that the US abandon that battlefield.
But now this twisted ideologue, this self-righteous moral disaster, groans and moans about America's moral compass.
Posted by Pirovano at 09/11/2009 @ 7:49pm
Our moral compass under George Bush was splendid.
Posted by Pirovano at 09/11/2009 @ 7:49pm
What did Mr. Bush say about those Darfurians? I missed that one. I was busy looking for this moral compass that you speak of. I don't recall him ever addressing the subject except in passing. You need to brush up on more US history to realize that we have not always been paragons of virtue. That's naive.
And, as of late, there have been many reports of what some of our 'finest' and Blackwater were doing to Iraqi civilians who seemed to be doing nothing at all. Is it possible that, at present, the number of non-combatants killed in Iraq are gaining ground on the number of soldiers killed by bombers, and who, in many cases, killed more fellow countrymen than the enemy?
It's a subjective debate. Only numbers and percentages can win the case for 'who was more cruel and inhuman'? The moral compass is not always pointing North. It's spinning, aimless.
I can't say I always blindly agree with Katrina, but I'm wondering just who the twisted ideologue is.
Posted by ficheye at 09/11/2009 @ 8:22pm
What did Mr. Bush say about those Darfurians? I missed that one. I was busy looking for this moral compass that you speak of. I don't recall him ever addressing the subject except in passing
Posted by ficheye at 09/11/2009 @ 8:22pm
perhaps you were sleeping? And to suggest that Bush just addressed the subject in passing, well, you decide.
<11:41am UK, Wednesday February 27, 2008
John Kelly
George Bush has called the bloodshed in Darfur a "genocide" and has imposed new economic sanctions against Sudan.
Speaking at the White House, he said the US would not "divert our eyes from a crisis that challenges the conscience of the world".
Mr Bushsaid: "For too long the people of Darfur have suffered at the hands of a government that is complicit in the bombing, murder and rape of innocent civilians.
"My administration has called these actions by their rightful name: genocide. The world has a responsibility to put an end to it."
"America's commitment is clear. Since this conflict began, we have provided more than $1.7bn of humanitarian and peacekeeping assistance for Darfur.>
http://tinyurl.com/n3mp95
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 10:09pm
Ah sooo many posts showing EXACTLY why I left the republican party.
Both sides obfuscate and preach, but when you fellas go at it, it's always complete and total b.s. with not a hint if truth to any of it.
I just love how these tools can sit here and complain about socialism and spending, while to this day after we know what we know, defending the decision to invade a foreign country based on lies and deceit.
The willfull blindness still astonishes me even at this late date.
Nothing more than a bunch of dittoheads scared out of their minds of the terrorist boogeyman, because they watch too much of the liberal media they hate so much.
Grow up and read a book. You disservice every single person who lost their life on 9/11 with your ignorance.
Posted by TexasFlood at 09/11/2009 @ 11:42pm
http://tinyurl.com/n3mp95 Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 10:09pm
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Earth to ficheye.
Posted by ficheye at 09/12/2009 @ 12:03am
Posted by antisocialist at 09/11/2009 @ 10:09pm
And then, magically.....
By Maggie Fick and David Sullivan As the Bush administration prepares to leave office, their track record on Darfur remains tragically consistent. Soaring rhetoric about the imperative of responding to genocide has far outpaced underwhelming efforts to actually change the situation on the ground. The airlift of supplies for the UNAMID peacekeeping force recently announced by National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley is the latest instance of tough talk followed by pedestrian efforts to manage the consequences of ongoing genocidal conflict.
..........................
So, you're right, sort of. Humanitarian aid. Food. Medicine. But no 'action', as they say. Maybe that's why I 'slept' through it. Everyone worldwide was wondering if anyone would intervene to save lives. Boots on the ground, something that you surely would have approved of yourself. And as to where the humanitarian aid actually went? Sort of like all those bundles of money in Iraq. Some of it went to the needy, but there was 'leakage'.
Upon doing further research, the Sudanese government also expelled the aid workers after a time, cutting off access to the aid that was being flown in, not stockpiled in the country.
Posted by ficheye at 09/12/2009 @ 12:17am
911 was a landmark of human tragedy. The next human tragedy was the exploitation of the event by G.W. Bush. The incompetent handling of the attempt to find Osama and the refusal to concentrate the retaliation on the organization (s) responsible for the attack and rather using the opportunity to politicize and distort information, purposely deceiving Congress and the public. Fact is and the evidence overwhelming that the Bush administration betrayed the trust of the american people by its lack of integrity and its secrecy in its determination of policies. Its ignorant, arrogant inability to seek proper advise, based on informed sources and instead conceal facts in order to justify economic and military decisions which were made with ulterior motives in mind. The race to sustain a credit based economy that had been proven to have a short life, particularly on a run-off, unregulated form that caused the worst economic downfall. To pretend that it is OK to forget that level of corruption in order to "move on" is not a clean way to gain the trust to truly move forward with a sense that government can be trusted. To pretend that it is possible to be by-partisan in view of the brutality and irresponsible handling of the national affairs by the Republican administration during the Bush years is tantamount to betraying the purpose that inspired the majority who voted for a democratic candidate.
Posted by Gustav at 09/12/2009 @ 03:16am
Upon doing further research, the Sudanese government also expelled the aid workers after a time, cutting off access to the aid that was being flown in, not stockpiled in the country.
Posted by ficheye at 09/12/2009 @ 12:17am
Tell me what the UN and othe nations have done?
It is a genocide and the world should be ashamed to let this happen.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/12/2009 @ 04:18am
How do we reclaim our moral compass? Well, we did that when we dumped the Republiklan party out of power on Nov 4, 2008.
No more will we have a Republiklan party who in secret attempted to force oil and gas pipeline deals on terrorist governments like the Taliban run Afghanistan during the Spring of 2001 with threats of invading them.
The 9-11 attacks happened over oil. The Taliban did not wait for the impending invasion by the BU$H government and had their guests Al Qaeda to attack us first.
We need to send BU$H to the hague for trial for war crimes including the provocation of the 9-11 attacks.
Posted by DEMOCRATZ.ORG at 09/12/2009 @ 11:14pm
This is an excellent article.Without looking into the root cause of the terrorism, there will be no remedy. Peace and security are not things, that could be bought with money,threat or war. It is the policies of the US in the Middle East, especially the open support to Israel , that makes the Arabs to hate US. And that lead to the 9/11 attacks, and US spared Saudi Arabia, from where 15 of the attackers came due to the proximity to the Royal family. US under George W Bush used the 9/11 incident to attack Iraq to take control it's vast oil reserve and to protect Israel from any future threat from Iraq.And what US got? The terror threat is still there.The terrorists needn't go to US to kill Americans, because they are in plenty in Iraq and Afghanistan.And they are doing that.The death toll in Iraq has surpassed the 9/11 incident. Whether US wins the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan it is not going to provide security to it.At the present situation it is not going to be easy, even impossible. Remember, the world's best armies and weapons are waging a war in Afghanistan for more than 8 years. The last 2 month's death toll among the NATO forces was the highest.Their puppet, the President Karzai only control a portion of the Kabul, that too with NATO support. Obama must fulfill his election promise , which helped him to win the election, the withdrawal from Iraq.Afghanistan is going to be his Vietnam , when we look into the present situations there. PEACE TO THE WORLD.
Posted by Dastu11 at 09/13/2009 @ 05:24am
we always hear Saddam woulda, should, coulda.
I have a woulda, shoulda, coulda too. when Bush read the brief" Bin Laden determined to attack", and the one about some attack with planes.
a prudent pres coulda called out the National Guard and had a soldier with an AK47 on every flight.
he coulda also have insisted that the airlines fortify the cockpit doors. this move would have stymied the highjackers and at worst we woulda had a few hundred casualties, and the cursed towers would still be standing.
the airlines woulda resisted every move, but a national emergency declared by the pres woulda shamed them into complying.
Posted by emile duBois at 09/13/2009 @ 1:21pm
we always hear Saddam woulda, shoulda, coulda.
shoulda proofed more carefully.
Posted by emile duBois at 09/13/2009 @ 1:23pm
I don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
Posted by emile duBois at 09/11/2009 @ 7:38pm
Of course that lyric is the origin of the name of the terrorists called the "Weather Underground." You know, the group that wanted to kill people but didn't think to take the middle third of a flight school course.
Posted by Mistral at 09/14/2009 @ 08:18am