Real Health, Real Reform

With both the House and Senate looking to pass health care bills prior to the summer recess which begins August 8, now is the moment of truth for Democrats: will they offer a real public plan option to compete with private plans and drive down costs? Or will they cater to the healthcare industry which is now spending $1.4 million per day on lobbyists to protect their profits?

Throughout this debate, one Senator who has been willing to tell it like it is, with the people's interest at heart, is Bernie Sanders. This week he will publish The Health Care Crisis: Letters from Vermont and America--a collection of healthcare stories sent to him from across the nation.

"In early June we sent out a letter to our email list--and we said two things," Sen. Sanders told me in an interview this week. "Number one, please sign a petition calling for a single-payer system; and two, give us some of your experiences with the private health insurance and your experience in terms of health care in general. Well, in a few weeks, we got 40,000 signatures on a single-payer petition. But, as important, we received well over 4,000 responses--from Vermont and all over the country--people telling us what's going on in their lives with regard to healthcare."

These stories remind us of the powerful, personal experiences that too often get lost in the abstract and arcane arguments over healthcare reform. I spoke with the Senator about these stories and the battle for real reform as it enters the stretch run. Here is our conversation, and some excerpts from the healthcare stories as well:

Sen. Sanders: If you read the responses--they're just unbelievable. It really makes you believe that in this area [of healthcare] you're living in a Third World country. You know, people dying because they don't have access to healthcare. People getting much sicker than they should have because they can't find a doctor. People going bankrupt. I mean, all of the stories we read about but it really is mind-blowing just to read it in the words straight from people's mouths. It's very emotional, I think it's a good piece.

Q: It sounds similar in impact to the other booklet you did last year--The Collapse of the Middle Class.

Sen. Sanders: Exactly. And that's what we have to continue doing. I think it's important to hear what's going on in people's lives, and with regard to healthcare--this is an issue of life and death, where people are describing friends of theirs dying because they didn't have access to a doctor. It's very traumatic.

Excerpt from The Health Care Crisis: "My younger brother, a combat decorated veteran of the Vietnam conflict, died three weeks after being diagnosed with colon cancer. He was laid off from his job and could not afford COBRA coverage. When he was in enough pain to see a doctor, it was too late. He left a wife and two teenage sons in the prime of his life at 50 years old. The attending doctor said that if he had only sought treatment earlier he would still be alive." --Jim, Swanton, VT

Q: Talk about where things stand now with the health care bill.

Sen. Sanders: I'm on the HELP Committee. What I'm worried about, is you have at least four different groups working on this bill. You have the House--and you got three committees there. Then you have in the Senate--the Finance Committee and the HELP Committee, Kennedy's committee. And you got the White House involved in this. You got a lot of different forces coming together. I think the first area that we should be very concerned about --and I say this not from an ideological point of view, but just from a straight, factual observation--if one is serious about providing comprehensive, universal, cost-effective health care for the American people, the only way to do it is single-payer. That's just a fact. We are wasting about $400 billion a year in excessive administrative costs...and it should be disturbing to the American people that single-payer has not gotten the kind of due that it deserves. And I think just given the enormous power of the insurance companies, the drug companies, the medical equipment suppliers--and the fact that they're now spending I guess over $1 million a day lobbying against any real healthcare reform should tell people about the power that these people have [to] prevent even a serious discussion of single-payer. So that's issue number one.

Excerpt from The Health Care Crisis: "I am originally from Canada and see the effects of the American system's failures every day.... I can't stress enough how the worries about health care in the U.S. shape the everyday lives of Americans and American business in ways that Canadians can't even truly comprehend. Not having to worry about the financial costs of getting sick or going to your doctor or whether or not you can "afford" to change jobs or start your own business is something Canadians experience without even knowing it...." --Paul, South Burlington, VT

Sen. Sanders: Number two, I am distressed at what's happening on the Finance Committee. I think the bill that they are bringing forth is extremely weak, and will rely for its funding on regressive funding. [The Committee] is not prepared to take on the drug companies or the insurance companies in any meaningful way. And I think people should do whatever they can at the grassroots level to make sure that nothing resembling a Finance Committee bill --as we hear it [described] today--gets passed. I am personally disturbed to read that Sen. Baucus... has formed what he calls the "Coalition of the Willing." And his Coalition of the Willing--and this is really kind of unbelievable--consists of four Republicans on his committee and three Democrats. So, at a time when you have a Democratic President, you have a strong Democratic House...the healthcare policy of the US Senate [might] be developed by this Coalition of the Willing which has majority Republican support. It's Senators Grassley, Enzi, Snowe and Hatch. So those are the four who are in Majority position who--according to some sources--will develop the policy of the US Senate. And I think for the average American, for the average activist, for the average progressive it is literally beyond comprehension how--when the Democrats now have 60 votes in the Senate, a strong majority in the House, and a Democratic President--a group made up of a majority of Republicans could determine an important part of what the healthcare legislation will look like.

Excerpt from The Health Care Crisis: "...I am fascinated by the contrast between the public debate... and the private anguish experienced by our patients.... When medical care is desired, there is no line for our elected officials, our regulatory bodies, and our well-insured pundits. I wonder how much this affects the public debate on health care reform. If they felt only a small portion of the desperation we see every day in the hearts of our patients, the debate on health care reform would have long ago been finished and put to sleep." --Dr. Asa, Saint James, NY

Sen. Sanders: What I have been arguing and feel very strongly is that--now that we have 60 votes, 58 Democrats and Senator Lieberman and myself--I think that at the very least what has got to happen is that the fallback position, and it's a significant fallback away from single-payer, is a strong Medicare-type public option. And that to me means that anyone in America would have the right to have a Medicare-type set of health benefits administered at the federal level, and subsidized for low- and moderate-income people. And I think that that has got to be at least a minimal demand of progressives. What we are seeing now is that certainly in the Finance Committee--unless things change very rapidly--that is not going to be the case. In the HELP Committee we are going to have a halfway decent public plan, it could be better, but we're gonna have something. And I'm going to be working with other people to try to strengthen that.

But I think the main point that I would make is that it should be unthinkable that the Senate does not have a strong public plan. And my view is that now that there are 60 people in the Democratic Caucus at the very least every one of those people should be prepared to vote against a Republican filibuster and allow us to go forward with a strong public plan. If, at the end of the day, there are members of the Democratic caucus who for whatever reason choose not to vote for a strong health care reform piece of legislation, they can vote no. But I think we should stand together to defeat a Republican filibuster. And if passing a strong bill means with 51 votes, 53 votes, 54 votes, whatever, that's what we should do. It's much, much better to pass a strong bill with 53 votes, then a very, very weak bill that primarily benefits the insurance companies, and the drug companies, in a bipartisan vote with 70 votes.

Excerpt from The Health Care Crisis: "The sister in law of one of my co-workers is a 42-year-old single mom who was just diagnosed with breast cancer which has spread to her brain. She has two young kids and was given 3-6 months to live. She is insured, but the co-pays and deductibles are so enormous that she is being forced to file for bankruptcy. Imagine facing death knowing you have 2 young kids. That is bad enough, but add to that financial troubles which have magnified this already horrendous situation. It is a national disgrace." --Deb, Montpelier, VT

Q: Which makes me think of reconciliation needing just 51 votes. Can you get a strong bill done through that process?

Sen. Sanders: We're looking at that. The preferred option would be to have 60 people in the Democratic caucus who would vote for cloture.... Reconciliation is a complicated procedural process. It is not saying that under reconciliation you can pass a strong, comprehensive plan with 51 votes, because there are many, many elements to it, which means that you may have to deal with this legislation on a piecemeal basis. So, the stronger option would be to say, 'Okay, we're gonna be united. We have 60 votes now. The American people expect us to deliver something real. We're gonna defeat a Republican filibuster and then we're gonna do the best that we can which at a minimum will include a strong public option.' Reconciliation is another approach but I think that it's a more difficult, more complicated, less positive approach than having 60 votes for cloture.

Q: The President has sent a lot of mixed signals in terms of how willing he is to fight for this--

Sen. Sanders: Yes.

Q: He said something almost opposite what you said. I'm paraphrasing, but he said, "I'd rather get some of what I want with 70 votes, then all of what I want with 52."

Sen. Sanders: I think in that regard--and I have a lot of affection and respect for President Obama--I think if we came up with a weak bill, I think it's all together likely that in four or five years we'd have to come back and start all over again. Because a weak bill simply is not going to solve our problem of universal, good quality, comprehensive--and that's a key word--coverage. You can have universal coverage [that] doesn't mean a whole lot, because you'll have tens of millions of people who will have very high deductibles, high co-payments. They will still not be able to get to the doctor when they want to. And it will not be particularly effective. So, to pass legislation which doesn't accomplish those goals--of universality, of comprehensiveness, of high quality, and cost-effectiveness--is, I think, a mistake. Because what happens if it's not cost-effective--if we're not beginning to address the $400 billion in waste that takes place because we have a private insurance dominated system, with 1300 private companies and thousands and thousands of plans, which require a huge amount of money to administer...? If we don't deal with the profiteering of the drug companies, the high CEO salaries, the fraud actually being committed by many of these people--then the cost will be so high that in a few years the government will have to cut back on it and we'll be back to where we are again. So, to my mind...if you are serious about real healthcare reform, the only way to go is single-payer, because that addresses the fact as to why we spend almost twice as much per capita on healthcare as any other nation. If we don't have the political will to do that, at the very least you need a strong public plan which will force competition with the private insurance companies--they will have to cut back on their administrative costs, on their profiteering--and there will be some benefit to be gained from that. But if you don't do that--if you end up with getting 10, 15 Republicans who are very conservative on this issue, who are there to protect the insurance companies and the drug companies, [then] I'm 100 percent sure you'll have to come back five years from now because what you will have done will not be meaningful for the average American.

Excerpt from The Health Care Crisis: "It is inexcusable that over 30 percent of our health care dollar is wasted on bureaucracy. It is tragic and wrong that over 20,000 Americans die each year and many more are injured and bankrupted because they lack insurance. It is infuriating to have our hands tied by insurance companies, to have to jump through hoops to get what we know our patients need. No wonder the number of new primary care physicians is plummeting...!" --Dr. Susan, Colchester, VT

Q: How does the process work to arrive at the final Senate bill? Say the Finance Committee has a weak bill, and HELP has a decent bill-- is there a conference?

Sen. Sanders: We don't know exactly--you know, I just asked that question today. It is not quite clear how the two committees come together. But I would hope that every activist in America, every progressive in America, will stand firm and say that if we're not gonna do single-payer, at least you need a strong public plan, and that we cannot go forward without that.... As to the exact process of how the two committees come together, I don't think anyone knows that at this moment. But we're gonna need a lot of grassroots activism to oppose a weak bill.

Q: So people should be contacting their Senators and Baucus? [editor's note: and Sen. Harry Reid--tell him to get the Democratic Caucus united to stop a GOP filibuster]

Sen. Sanders: That's right. Absolutely. If we can't pass a strong bill, with a good President, with a strong majority in the House, 60 votes in the Senate--when are we gonna do it? When are we gonna do it?

And it's not just a public policy issue...but from a political point of view I think the Democrats will be hurt if they do not come up with something strong and meaningful because people will say, 'Hey, we gave you the power and you couldn't do it. And we didn't give you the power to start negotiating with conservative Republicans. We gave you the power to produce something meaningful and real.' And the other thing that bothers me, I worry very much that what the Finance Committee is looking at is taxing health care benefits. You know, workers have fought for decades for strong health care benefits. They have given up wage increases. And now to adopt John McCain's plan to tax those health care benefits--again, it's not only very bad public policy, it's a regressive way of raising revenue--but it is also bad politics. Why do you want to step on the people who put you in office? They're our supporters. Now as you know, Obama came up with a pretty progressive approach where he thought he could raise $300 billion by cutting back on the charitable exemptions for the very wealthy. That would have impacted only the top 2 percent. But my understanding is the Finance Committee doesn't like that. They would prefer to tax the middle-class on their health care benefits. So I think that is clearly unacceptable.... So, we want to take a look at whether this thing is gonna be funded on the backs of lower-income people and the middle-class, or whether it's gonna be funded in a progressive way as Obama first suggested.... This is complicated stuff, the bills are gonna be hundreds and hundreds of pages. But our bottom line should be not to support anything that is not strong, that is not meaningful, that is not really gonna help the millions of people who absolutely need help, and do that in a way which doesn't break the budget of the United States government.

Comments (225)

1. Ms vanden Heuvel, I'll bet you anything you want (maybe my "temporary exile" from this blog)...

   versus an invite to your next dinner with Gorbachev. (Wasn't Wallace Shawn in that?)...

   that it WILL NOT be "single payer" as you and Sen. Sanders hope.

   Posted by Mask at 07/08/2009 @ 3:54pm

2. that it WILL NOT be "single payer" as you and Sen. Sanders hope.

   Posted by Mask at 07/08/2009 @ 3:54pm |

   For once, I hope you're right.

   Posted by antisocialist at 07/08/2009 @ 4:14pm

3. I finally realized this nation was doomed when i started hearing little children stating that " healthcare is a right" (this is liberal indoctrination courtesy of our elementary schools). To all loser liberals: healthcare is NOT a right, shelter is not a right, nutrition/food is not a right, education is not a right. No one has the right to force someone else to pay for thier problems! This is pathetic, and it WILL destroy our country. If healthcare is a right, then I want reparations for the violation of my rights to free healthcare. I want reparations for every family member on our family tree, from previous generations, that not only didn't get ANY free health care, but wouldn't even entertain the idea that it was somehow a right! You losers are pathetic, and you keep creating more losers by mind-fucking them into believing that they are owed a free ride at someone else's expense!!!

   Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 5:01pm

4. barry25-Thank you for your pointless rant.Single payer insurance will destroy America?You have such little faith and no knowledge of US history.We have survived far worse things than single payer insurance,but thanks for your panic driven rant,but stop being such a scared little thing.

   Posted by i'm nobody at 07/08/2009 @ 5:08pm

5. I can only hope the Dems will go at it w/each other for the next month or two, or three.....while most Americans worry about something a bit more important....It's the Economy, Magic!

   Posted by Happy at 07/08/2009 @ 5:21pm

6. happy-presidents have to worry about more than one thing and cannot just focus one thing and many Americans are worried about health care as numerous polls show.try to keep up rather than just repeat what Rush tells you to repeat.

   Posted by i'm nobody at 07/08/2009 @ 5:34pm

7. nobody, here's a little history lesson for you: socialism/communism has consistently failed throughout history! Another history lesson: for the first time in HISTORY, less that 50% of the american people pay income tax! If you don't see the direction this country is going, based on that little stat I just shared with you, then you are a sheeple! More and More losers are living off of the winners! These losers, who overwhelmingly voted for the racist himself, Obama, are also reproducing at a very high rate, and their offspring are being indoctrinated into this loser-liberal, "I'm owed everything" philosophy! So, the future of America is grim due to the fact that liberalism has killed motivation, erased personal responsibilty from the minds and hearts of many, if not most, americans. It's truly embarrassing, but the one good aspect of it is that I don't have a lot of competition in the real world because liberalism has turned my competition in pussy-quitters. My children will also be extremely successful due to upbringing, morality, values, hard work, faith etc. along with the fact that liberalism has dumbed down this nation to the point that it's not hard to beat most of them out of a job, career etc. Liberalism is a mental disorder and health-care/single-payer is NOT a right! Pay for your own healthcare, food, etc. Grow a spine a handle your own shit! If you can't feed em' dont' breed em', loser!

   Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 5:38pm

8. With a deficit of 1.8 trillion dollars, not including interest and the cost of the proposed health care plan to be over a trillion how in the world are we going to pay for this. Also all of the numbers generated by the Demoncrats like 48 million uninsured when in reality it's more like 9 million when you take into account the number of people not wanting insurance (9 million) and the people unaware they are eligible for Medicare or Medicade (7 million), and those earning more than S70,000 who would rather pay as you go for healthcare, lets not forget the illegal aliens (24 million) get a clue and work for what you have not depend on the government to provide.

   Posted by prweigandt at 07/08/2009 @ 5:38pm

9. Federal income tax, that is!

   Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 5:39pm

10. There should be a ban on taxation by the Fed Gov't until they stop all funding/services for the heathcare, education etc. of illegal aliens. If my tax dollars are going to be spent on non-US citizens who have broken our laws to come here and steal from us, there's no justification to give the gov't anymore. If they have enough to give to illegals, they should definitely have enough to pay for everything else. Liberalism is a mental disorder!

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 5:46pm

11. barry25-I was already aware that you know nothing about history,but thank you for verifying that and no one group can be to blame for everything like you claim which,again,shows your lack of knowledge of history.Liberalism is not considered to be a mental disorder so thank you for showing that you know nothing about that subject,either.Liberals are not to blame for you being dumbed down and you need to learn to take personal responsibility for your own lack of knowledge.Not only did I feed my kids,but I was able to feed them by working,growing my own food,and by hunting and fishing.I can build my own house,too.I'm not going to pay for my own health care and will continue to use the veterans hospitals,military hospitals, and my free government insurance that I get for being retired military.By the way I'm not a liberal,but am aware of history and know that liberals are not to blame for everything and that some socialist ideas have worked well.My guess is that you are on welfare and food stamps because you do protest too much and your type are always hypocrites.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/08/2009 @ 5:51pm

12. "...food is not a right, ..."

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 5:01pm

    How fortunate for you your parents thought otherwise, n'est ce pas?

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/08/2009 @ 5:59pm

13. Hey Barry25, I have news for you , (other than your an idiot), there are people out here who are hard working and got sick and lost EVERYTHING, even with insurance. This happened to my husband, who is self employed.Insurance is long gone as he now has a pre-existing condition. The policy we had only covered part of his illness and surgeries.You assume much about something you don't know. MY HUSBAND PAID IN FOR 30 YEARS, but can't get insurance or help from our government because we make too much for welfare but too little to be able to afford health insurance. WE NEED SOMETHING !!! Single payer is a start. YOU ARE FU*KED UP DUDE. I hope what happened to my family never happens to you, but if it does, I hope you remember what you wrote on a blog to the Nation, karma is a bitch. Denise

    Posted by Denise29 at 07/08/2009 @ 6:02pm

14. "...education is not a right..."

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 5:01pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Then again, perhaps they weren't quite as caring as to some things.

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/08/2009 @ 6:03pm

15. You losers are pathetic, and you keep creating more losers by mind-fucking them into believing that they are owed a free ride at someone else's expense!!!

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 5:01pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Parachute all packed? Where ya headed?

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/08/2009 @ 6:05pm

16. My guess is that you are on welfare and food stamps because you do protest too much and your type are always hypocrites.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/08/2009 @ 5:51pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Yes. The ones who are truly successful just don't have TIME to strap on all that anger weight. They're too busy adapting and, well, progressing.

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/08/2009 @ 6:13pm

17. Christianity emphasizes sharing and taking care of your neighbors. I consider taxes as a form of sharing.

    I love the idea of sharing a bit of my meager income to help someone I'll never meet.

    I love that I don't have to go looking around everyday for some who needs a few dollars towards a mammogram.

    I love the idea of healthcare tax. I love that my money would automatically be delivered to someone in this country who is suffering.

    I don't love that idea that 50% of my sharing (taxes) goes toward the military. I don't love that my politicians ignore my desire to share my money in ways that create peace and health for all.

    I don't love that people can be mean and selfish in this country and that being this way is held up as patriotic.

    Posted by ilovesharing at 07/08/2009 @ 6:14pm

18. ...but the one good aspect of it is that I don't have a lot of competition in the real world ...

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 5:38pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Seriously, Barry, what do you do for a living?

    Just curious, not trying to argue.

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/08/2009 @ 6:17pm

19. And, Barry, how exactly is President Obama a racist?

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/08/2009 @ 6:19pm

20. These losers, who overwhelmingly voted for the racist himself, Obama, ...

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 5:38pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    whoops, forgot attribution.

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/08/2009 @ 6:20pm

21. Nobody, you absolutely deserve the health care you are being provided because you've put in your time in the us military, and i have nothing but respect for that. The losers I described earlier do not include people like you. Everything you described about yourself is the polar opposite of a liberal! You're self-sufficient. You have taken PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY (the 2 most hated words by liberals), and you said it yourself, you're not a liberal. You earned your healthcare, and that's all i ask. My grandfather lost his life savings because he didn't have healthcare and the medicaid wouldn't kick in until he spent all his money (our inheritance). Yet this man paid into the program all his life, employed others and paid in for them only to be turned away and punished for saving his money, while the very same gov't readily gives those needed services to illegal aliens. Those are the breaks. You're very wrong about me. I'm self-employed, happily married with child, own a home, pay way too much in taxes, obey the law, judge men and women not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character, and expect myself to be responsible not only for myself but for my family...and that's it! I'm not repsonsible for YOUR healthcare, YOU are! Cradle-to-gravers (liberals who jumped from their mother's nipple to the gov't nipple) have infected gov't and made it so burdensome to the private sector, the private sector is not going to be able to continue to fund the gov't through taxes. California, where I live, is a perfect example, and Obama is literally doing many if not all of the same exact things Ca. has done to bankrupt itself! Liberalism is a mental disorder!

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 6:21pm

22. Posted by Mask at 07/08/2009 @ 3:54pm

    It will eventually. I think Willem Buiter pretty much nails it in his editorial, "The inevitable socialisation of health care financing," -- the first two paragraphs:

    "Private insurance only works if there is risk. If the risk is eliminated, profitable insurance is impossible. This holds for health insurance as it holds for credit default swaps. When risk vanishes, insurance turns into redistribution. That's a task for the state, whether through the tax payer or by mandated pooling in quasi-private insurance schemes of individuals with known heterogeneous health profiles.

    The rise of genomics - the branch of genetics that studies organisms in terms of their full DNA sequences or genomes - will in the not too distant future kill off most private health insurance. That's probably a good thing, for two reasons. First, because of asymmetric information, when there is risk and uncertainty about a person's future health, health insurance markets are badly affected by adverse selection and moral hazard. Second, because the private health insurance industry is a monument to inefficiency everywhere and, especially in the US, a rent-seeking Leviathan whose ruthless lobbying efforts corrupt all it touches."

    http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2009/07/ the-inevitable-socialisation-of-health-care-financing/

    Posted by srjenkins at 07/08/2009 @ 6:23pm

23. I run a small business that I started from nothing in 97'. It provides a pretty good income, but I don't have a union or the luxury of gov't to provide me with retirement, healthcare, etc., so therefore, it's harder than the average liberals life, which is either working for the gov't, a union, or living free off the taxpayer!!! That's OK, because when they bury me, I'll have the peace of mind to rest easy knowing that i did it on my own, didn't take the easy route, and stayed true to my convictions! Being self-employed is one of those things that really makes one understand and appreciate the term LIBERTY, which is being stolen, rapidly, by that cradle-to-grave, nipple-to-gov't, marxist, racist....BARACK "white mans greed runs a world in need" Obama and his ugly america-hating wife! Take care

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 6:29pm

24. Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 6:21pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31796985/ns/business-us_business/

    There you go Barry, help out your state.

    Posted by horselover-fat at 07/08/2009 @ 6:30pm

25. The funny thing about liberals is that they act as though they care about others and are much more giving and sharing than conservatives. This is a fraud! It is a known fact, as proven by a 10 years study by a self-described liberal professor, that conservatives are FAR more charitable with their MONEY than libs! So please spare me the sob stories!

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 6:32pm

26. Posted by srjenkins at 07/08/2009 @ 6:23pm

    Which other areas of life that bear risk do you think the Fed govt should take over?

    Food supply, housing, auto insurance, life insurance (and I mean that in it's central application of things like replacing income for a lost spouse), disability (should the govt just provide 100% replacement income?)?

    We already know that many on the left want a middle class income retirement guaranteed to all seniors (and many want it prior to age 65). Should the govt guarantee you that lifestyle if you risk on housing and 401k's and you don't make your retirement comfort level?

    And back to risk in health insurance; how does the most successful healthcare provider in the country, Kaiser, continue to be successful as a NONPROFIT provider if they still bear risk? Just curious

    Posted by antisocialist at 07/08/2009 @ 6:34pm

27. Barack Obama is a racist through and through, as is Sotomayer! All one has to do is read any of the numerous racist statements that both have made repeatedly! If any of those statements were applied the exact same way towards any minority group by a white male of female, they would never work in any form of gov't again! The media and the left would publicly destroy them like they did Trent Lott, and he didn't even make a racist statement, he just said that we wouldn't be in the mess we're in if Strom Thurmond had won the presidency! The left took that and implied that he meant something racist by that statement. Barack Obama can openly call an entire race greedy, and get elected pres. "White mans greed runs a world in need" Barack Obama. " Black man's lazyness keeps the hood in need" Barry25

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 6:40pm

28. Posted by antisocialist at 07/08/2009 @ 6:34pm

    You're missing the point, LVL. The point is that in a world where you can make better predictions about health care outcomes based on genome analytics, then you reach a point where the quality of your information makes it impossible to make a profit or break even on certain segments of the population because of the cost of covering the now known higher level of risk. Then, you've already set the stage for government to provide some form of healthcare itself or to require insurance companies to serve large parts of the population by pooling the risk into groups so they will include people they otherwise wouldn't cover.

    For an analogy, you can use the stock market. If you were able to predict price outcomes with a certain threshold of precision, then the market for bad stocks would be zero. If those bad stocks are in important industries necessary for some reason (say national security), then the government may require good and bad stocks to be packaged together in order to make sure the necessary companies and industries receive investment.

    Substitute bad stocks with people with likely bad health outcomes and the stock market as the health care insurance market, and you see the problem.

    The need to do this kind of thing will, in effect, socialize healthcare, and it will lead to a different kind of rationing than is currently practiced. You may not like it, but it's the way it's going to break.

    Posted by srjenkins at 07/08/2009 @ 6:50pm

29. Black man's lazyness keeps the hood in need" Barry25

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 6:40pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Uh, ok Barry, think I see where you're at now.

    My condolences to your family.

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/08/2009 @ 6:51pm

30. Still, didn't quite catch what you do, though.

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/08/2009 @ 6:55pm

31. barry25-There is no evidence that conservatives are more charitable.There is just evidence that they are more likely to write what they give off of their taxes which is not charity,but greed.You are way to angry to be running anything successfully and way to angry to be living the life you claim.Anger does not come from success or a happy home life.My wife is a liberal and she has earned her own way in life and that is true of most liberals that I have known.I have,also,known conservatives on welfare and food stamps and ones like Bush who never earned anything and was handed everything on a silver platter..Again,liberalism is not considered to be a mental disorder,but your anger issues are considered to be a mental disorder as is your fanaticism.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/08/2009 @ 7:14pm

32. Here's a message for all you young socialists, from a baby boomer about to retire - you're f**ked. I just lost my job of 30+ years due to this economic downturn - I won't be hired by anyone else - it was a good paying job, 75K, and I'm drawing a good unemployment check, which I don't even need. I'm 64, so I will be retiring about the time my unemployment runs out. Between my personal retirement fund and SS I will be pulling in about 3.5K a month - that'll go up when my wife retires in five years. I don't think anything but inflation can wreck this for me, and with the political pressure that all the retired people can bring to bear on our reps, I think they will fix that (cost of living adjustments), if it becomes a problem. Medical is of course, a part of the SS retirement package, so you can see, I'm not worried about this stuff for me. I also don't care about losing the job – I was going to quit soon, anyway. You, on the other hand, are screwed. About the time you're starting to get it, that is, understand what has happened to you, they will let you know that there is nothing left for you. I'm sorry to say, I didn't see this coming, either. I've had a great life, with lot's of freedom. I don't think you will have the same if Obama has his way. Welcome to Prison Planet.

    Posted by Elcobar at 07/08/2009 @ 7:16pm

33. Quote: barry25-There is no evidence that conservatives are more charitable.

    Very incorrect, Barry. I'ts well documented that Republicans donate to charities MUCH more than Democrats. Check your facts.

    Posted by Elcobar at 07/08/2009 @ 7:20pm

34. Apologies, Barry. I didn't meant to attribute that misstatement to you.

    Posted by Elcobar at 07/08/2009 @ 7:25pm

35. Posted by srjenkins at 07/08/2009 @ 6:50pm

    It is an interesting point. However there are some flaws to it actually causing the downfall of health insurance industry. One is privacy, would we allow insurance companies or any corporation to know that type of information? Would that information be available to employers? maybe? Another potential flaw is that even with the genetic information there is no guarantee that those gene will express itself into a disease. One can carry a gene for a specific type of illness but that gene may never express itself, maybe with advancees in the field that will be overcome, then maybe not. But the final and probably greatest flaw is that many people have illnesses/health crises that are not due to their genes. Last week a friend of mine was in a headon collision with a flatbed truck hauling hay, he was severely injured and will not likely ever fully recover. Or there are those who become sick from some lifestyle or environmental component, those who over eat, or those who live too close or work with an unidentified carcinogen. Those are major factors that would maintain the uncertainty component for health insurance. Especially since the leading causes of illness in the US are not from genetic sources.

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/FASTATS/deaths.htm

    Posted by Extraneous at 07/08/2009 @ 7:28pm

36. As a matter of fact, Republicans pay their taxes more than Democrats, too! ;)

    Posted by Elcobar at 07/08/2009 @ 7:28pm

37. Posted by Elcobar at 07/08/2009 @ 7:16pm

    Thanks for the note, Mr. Cheerful. You take your 42k a year and enjoy what time you have. We're going to have bigger problems than Social Security when the oil runs out, but we'll figure it out.

    Posted by srjenkins at 07/08/2009 @ 7:32pm

38. Thanks for the note, Mr. Cheerful. You take your 42k a year and enjoy what time you have. We're going to have bigger problems than Social Security when the oil runs out, but we'll figure it out.

    Posted by srjenkins at 07/08/2009 @ 7:32pm

    By the time we even get close to running out of oil sometime in the 22nd century, we won't even be using it anymore.

    Posted by antisocialist at 07/08/2009 @ 7:39pm

39. I've had a great life, with lot's of freedom. I don't think you will have the same if Obama has his way. Welcome to Prison Planet.

    Posted by Elcobar at 07/08/2009 @ 7:16pm

    I have no idea what you are talking about. You mention all the socalist benefits your recieving and how that has resulted in a high quality of life for you. I understand that with current projections some of these social programs may have difficulties. Although recently birth rates have been on the rise and are higher than they have been in 30 years. So maybe there is some light, as these will be the replacement workers when I am close to retirement.

    But my question is what is Obama proposing that will end freedoms? I have seen absolutely nothing to support this fear laced statement of yours.

    Posted by Extraneous at 07/08/2009 @ 7:39pm

40. I have no idea what you are talking about. You mention all the socalist benefits your recieving and how that has resulted in a high quality of life for you. I understand that with current projections some of these social programs may have difficulties. Although recently birth rates have been on the rise and are higher than they have been in 30 years. So maybe there is some light, as these will be the replacement workers when I am close to retirement.

    But my question is what is Obama proposing that will end freedoms? I have seen absolutely nothing to support this fear laced statement of yours.

    Posted by Extraneous at 07/08/2009 @ 7:39pm

    Apparently you DO know what I'm talking about, Ex. You HOPE there will be someone behind you to pay the bill when you retire? You may not be allowed to retire. And you will be paying at least twice the taxes I did. That's about half your income.

    Okay, if you're willing to accept "some light" that's okay by me. Enjoy your little bit of light. I had a lot - I lived in the sunshine.

    Posted by Elcobar at 07/08/2009 @ 7:47pm

41. Posted by Extraneous at 07/08/2009 @ 7:28pm

    If I can obtain this information from a blood or saliva sample, what's going to stop me? Can you imagine what someone like LVL will say about the Constitutional basis for a genome privacy?

    Also, you need to check again because heart disease, cancer, cerebrovascular disease resulting in stroke, diabetes, Alzheimers, etc. are either wholly or partially the result of genetics. Cancers, for example, are often linked to certain DNA mutations. While they might not be 100% predictive, if I can say 83% of people with a certain mutation develop breast cancer, what's to stop insurance companies from not covering those people, re-writing their contracts not to cover those conditions, etc.?

    Using your figures, accidents account for 121,599 of 2,426,264 deaths every year (~5%). That's a margin of error. If I could create a profile of risks associated with a person's genome by retrospectively evaluating medical outcomes over a sizable random sample of patients, I bet you I could come up with a pretty accurate risk profile that would be very effective at screening out unprofitable patients.

    Currently, patients are screened by whether they have insurance or not. Without insurance, they get on the state bill. If insurance companies can reasonably predict unprofitable patients, then all that cost is going to be externalized to the state - which brings us to your comment. Why would government allow this?

    They won't. They'll socialize it, because no matter what laws you put into place, if this is technically possible, insurance companies are going to do it in order to manage their risk. It's a no-brainer, and this leads to the inevitable conclusion.

    Posted by srjenkins at 07/08/2009 @ 7:49pm

42. Posted by antisocialist at 07/08/2009 @ 7:39pm

    In short, you don't know what you are talking about. It's a safe bet we've already passed peak oil, and you only have to have the faintest glimmer of an idea of how markets work to know that increasing demand coupled with a reduction in supply results in markedly higher prices.

    The problems will manifest quickly - before the oil is actually all gone, and the transition will not be a smooth one. For illustration purposes, why do you think we still use a QWERTY keyboard, a keyboard designed to slow down typing rates so as not to jam the first printers?

    You live in a fantasy world if you think this is not going to be a problem. You don't even really need to talk about oil, you could simply point to fresh water. It's also going to be a major problem.

    The bottom line is that we need drastic population control and we are going to have to do away with globalization as envisioned in 1990s America. That's not going to work.

    Posted by srjenkins at 07/08/2009 @ 7:55pm

43. Posted by Elcobar at 07/08/2009 @ 7:47pm

    Not sure what your really saying though. We may have issues in the future with our social programs that folks like you are happily benefiting from. What is it that Obama is doing, or that you think he is doing that you disagree with? What would you suggest he do to avoid a "prison planet"?

    Posted by Extraneous at 07/08/2009 @ 7:59pm

44. "...education is not a right. No one has the right to force someone else to pay for thier problems! "

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 5:01pm

    i before e except after c.

    I just love it when karma comes together.

    idiot

    (yes, I know whoever lives by spellcheck, dies by spellcheck, but I couldn't resist)

    Posted by Benchrest at 07/08/2009 @ 8:06pm

45. "My children will also be extremely successful due to upbringing, morality, values, hard work, faith etc. "

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 5:38pm |

    What kind of "morality" and "faith" are you teaching them when your speech is as vile as any I have ever seen?

    Hypocrite.

    Posted by Benchrest at 07/08/2009 @ 8:13pm

46. Mask, it's all about the foot in the door, is it not? Seems to me that's a fool's bet given any public option is actually not a lock, a third of the populace believe the earth's 4000 years old and nonbelievers are some sort of un-American heathen socialist hippies. And with Murdoch/Fox running such a giant chunk of the air waves.

    You have much more knowledge than I on the historical trends that can give this overheated juncture in the healthcare debate some context. For ex., of the sort that link emancipation, women's suffrage, and affirmative action.

    No single payer, of course - at this precise point in time. However, isn't it important to understand the following as, potentially, a similar, PROGRESSIVE, leap forward from Medicaid/Medicare/VA for the few to broad middle class coverage?

    (Sander's) "anyone in America would have the right to have a Medicare-type set of health benefits administered at the federal level, and subsidized for low- and moderate-income people"

    -----------------------------------------------------

    Ms. vanden Heuvel -- superb work. Please keep belting it from the mountain tops. Feels like election eve again, all the fear and all the desperate hope. Can the people, descendants of the founders and slaves alike, fell this corrupt multi-headed, multi-national giant that's almost completely killed off America?

    Posted by winyahn at 07/08/2009 @ 8:16pm

47. Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 6:21pm

    Great.

    A sane post.

    Now I feel bad.

    Posted by Benchrest at 07/08/2009 @ 8:17pm

48. Your thoughtful and cogent arguments are always insightful, Katrina.

    Posted by kellyerogers at 07/08/2009 @ 8:17pm

49. Nobody, you are going to watch your fellow americans start to feel misery on a level not seen in our lifetime. The left owns America right now, and they own our future! You will witness this in the next 10 years, maybe sooner. Barack Obama will be seen as the worst Pres. in American history. The Dem. party, if they keep control after the 2010 elections, wil be destroyed for the next 20 years. There is corruption, and absolute evil, the likes this country has never seen, in the white house and congress. Super powerful anti-american forces have infected our gov't due to the election of Obama. It's a no-brainer, which is why I am so sure, albeit sad, that we're fucked due to the election of Obama and the socialism/marxism he and his fellow liberals have imposed on all of us. Kiss your liberties goodbye (unless you are a islamic terrorist, or maybe a pedophile). In 10 years, you'll have a much different opinion!

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 8:30pm

50. If my tax dollars are going to be spent on non-US citizens who have broken our laws to come here and steal from us, there's no justification to give the gov't anymore.

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 5:46pm

    are you willing to pay 58% more for your food?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 8:47pm

51. Looks like Cheney himself is blessing us with his presence.

    Posted by winyahn at 07/08/2009 @ 8:48pm

52. It is a known fact, as proven by a 10 years study by a self-described liberal professor, that conservatives are FAR more charitable with their MONEY than libs! So please spare me the sob stories!

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 6:32pm

    In fact, Americans at the bottom of the income-distribution pyramid are the country's biggest givers per capita. (View average household donations and the percentage of income donated to charity.) The 2000 Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey shows that households with incomes below $20,000 gave a higher percentage of their earnings to charity than did any other income group: 4.6 percent, on average. As income increased, the percentage given away declined: Households earning between $50,000 and $100,000 donated 2.5 percent or less. Only at high income levels did the percentage begin to rise again: For households with incomes over $100,000, the number was 3.1 percent.

    http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national- news/portfolio/2008/02/19/Poor-Give-More-to-Charity

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 8:56pm

53. I think Willem Buiter pretty much nails it in his editorial,

    Posted by srjenkins at 07/08/2009 @ 6:23pm

    as per usual.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 8:57pm

54. "are you willing to pay 58% more for your food?"

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 8:47pm

    "MADISON, Wisconsin - Oscar G. Mayer, retired chairman of the Wisconsin-based meat processing company that bears his name, has died at the age of 95.

    Mayer's wife, Geraldine, said he died of old age Monday at Hospice Care in Fitchburg."

    See, Frosty?

    Hot dogs are good for you, even if they are hooves and snouts.

    mmmmmmmmmmmm

    Posted by Benchrest at 07/08/2009 @ 9:01pm

55. Posted by srjenkins at 07/08/2009 @ 6:50pm

    I've never really thought about it from this perspective but it makes perfect sense. It's the logical progression to increasing technological prowess.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/08/2009 @ 9:03pm

56. Frosty zoom, I'm sorry, but you are a sheeple! You are regurgitating propaganda. 2% of illegal immigrants that break our laws to come here and steal from the american taxpayer......work in the agricultural industry. We've always had unemployment, but somehow, the unemployed manage to stay out of that industry....and still have a standard of living most of the world has never seeen, felt, or lived. 2% you moron!!!!! I'll spell it out for you......TWO PERCENT! Now, 28% or more of all federal prisoners are ILLEGAL ALIENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TWENTY EIGHT PERCENT OR MORE, moron! Look at the amount of ILLEGALS in L.A. jails alone, dummy! Look at the fact that Ca. spends 10 BILLION a year at the very least, to pay for the illegals that have ruined the state! Now go to starbucks, by a 5 dolla cup o' joe, and bitch about capitalist greed, with all the other liberal sheeple, nitwit!

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 9:05pm

57. Black man's lazyness keeps the hood in need" Barry25

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 6:40pm

    back to the plantation with 'em.

    who needs illegals?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 9:07pm

58. barry24-The left does not own America nor has the country become Marxist/socialist nor will I have a different opinion 10 years from now.Just as the looney members of the far left were saying that Bush/Cheney were going to take away our liberties,put us in prison camps, and ruin the country we now have you guys saying that now that the other side is in office.This happens every time there is a new POTUS and has happened since this country came into existence.Actually,the country has been through far worst times and we seen far more corruption in the past than we have now.It is way to early to be declaring that Obama will the worst and that is the usual partisan nonsense that we hear every time a new POTUS gets elected. America is like those old Timex ads.We take a licking,but keep on ticking.Have more faith in your country and do not allow partisan fear to control you.Liberals and Marxists are two different things.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/08/2009 @ 9:10pm

59. o.k., barry, paragon of knowledge and bad spelling....

    are you willing to pay 58% more for insulation, roofing, hotels, restaurants......?

    face it, you benefit everyday from keeping these people illegal.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 9:16pm

60. I think they will fix that (cost of living adjustments), if it becomes a problem.

    Posted by Elcobar at 07/08/2009 @ 7:16pm

    uh, who puts out the cpi?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 9:18pm

61. My bologna has a first name...

    It's O-s-c-a-r ...

    My bologna has a second name...

    It's M-a-y-e-r...

    Oh, I love to eat it everyday and if you ask me what I'll saaaaaaay!!!!

    Cuz Oscar Mayer has a way with B-o-l-o-g-n-a!!

    Posted by Benchrest at 07/08/2009 @ 9:26pm

62. Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 9:05pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Seriously, Barry, with all that now boiling-over anger--what exactly do you DO for a living, such as it allows you to assuage that unbelievable angst and frustration.

    I assume-- a "people" job?

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/08/2009 @ 9:31pm

63. mask, antisocialist, barry 25, leave and take a hike. I wish to hear and read INTELLIGENT arguments, debate, posts. You are incapable of such. Leave this space. I find you odious of view, despicable of character, clueless, shameless, sad. Go take a hike on appalachian trail--though that beautiful piece of land too fine for you misfits. I suggest you just leave. I find you, to repeat, lowest of low. Stale, and lifeless. Maybe go take a shot at politics in your communities and make it or lose. Losers you are, kvh

    Posted by Katrina vanden Heuvel at 07/08/2009 @ 9:32pm

64. Katrina vanden Heuvel's article including stuff from Bernie Sanders is classic liberalism at it's finest.

    Highlights of tragic situations regarding health care, with the cure for this being socialized medicine.

    This is the vehicle by which the left gains the traction they need to push their programs through.

    More government. People are hurting and government will help them and everything will be better.

    One fly in the ointment though, and this has been shown time and time again, most especially with much of the Great Society:

    Somehow once we get the government solution, the government effort, etc.......these tragic situations or problems are not solved....sometimes they even get worse or other unintended consequences kick in.

    With the Great Society, for example, one thing not foreseen by the social engineers/planners/dreamers was that it practically destroyed the African American family as a concept in inner city neighborhoods.

    The setup of the relief programs encouraged single motherhood at the expense of marriage, which wound up creating continual life-long dependency on the welfare state, people unable to break out of it.

    Thus it created one of the worst things it could have done, insuring continued poverty, instead of creating opportunity and advancement in the standard of living among the previously disenfranchised and poor.

    The leftists will put forth tragic stories to get people to accept the government involvement, but these same leftists never provide the tragic stories of lives ruined by government involvement after the government involvement is implemented. Instead of helping Black families break out of poverty it destroyed them altogether.

    Posted by sjchermak at 07/08/2009 @ 9:33pm

65. Posted by Katrina vanden Heuvel at 07/08/2009 @ 9:32pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Mask, Larry, and Barry--casting the net a little wide, aren't we, Ms. V?

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/08/2009 @ 9:34pm

66. It is a known fact, as proven by a 10 years study by a self-described liberal professor, that conservatives are FAR more charitable with their MONEY than libs! So please spare me the sob stories!

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 6:32pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Agreed.....neocons are so generous with their money....just look at the 4,000+ dead....give money....kill, kill!

    Posted by jarshadow at 07/08/2009 @ 9:35pm

67. Katrina,

    After my post got in I noticed your 9:32 pm post.

    Since you are in here now, what do you say about my remarks? (my 9:33 pm post above)

    Do you agree my remarks have some merit, or if not why not?

    Posted by sjchermak at 07/08/2009 @ 9:37pm

68. Posted by sjchermak at 07/08/2009 @ 9:33pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Hey, SJCHER, see above. Don't piss her off, there aren't many of us left.

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/08/2009 @ 9:38pm

69. Posted by Katrina vanden Heuvel at 07/08/2009 @ 9:32pm

    Hey Frosty!

    Mrs. Kat Van Helsing Doodle isn't mad at you anymore!

    Posted by Benchrest at 07/08/2009 @ 9:52pm

70. KVH, speaking of clueless, shameles, sad, dispicable of character etc. I'd like to say that "limosine liberal's" like yourself, born with silver spoon in mouth, who choose to belt out idiotic propaganda from the rooftops of their mansions, paid for and provided by thier PARENTS, are the most clueless, and hypocritical of all. How can a spoiled little brat like yourself, whose family has spent lots of money and time finding ways to avoid paying taxes on their fortune (this is fact, don't make me site it)all the while calling for higher taxes on others, act as if you have ANY clue as to how the real world works, feels like, or even looks! You are typical of many elitist liberals that I know, although they are not nearly as rich as you (rich, but not by your own doing, you little trust-funder), who propagate about a society they haven't ever lived in. I went to the schools in the hood, I got shot at, I watched my mother try to feed 3 children by herself on 3.50 an hour. You, on the other hand, along with you elitist, trust-funder, red-diaper-doper-babies that have lots of money, and a little power, have never experience anything close to the REAl WORLD! Liberals respect people like you, KVH, I don't!

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 9:57pm

71. Other than a few spelling errors, I'd say I worked you over pretty darn good! Have fun lookin' into the mirror tonite, trust-funder!

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 10:01pm

72. "...finding ways to avoid paying taxes on their fortune "

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 9:57pm

    It was only 2 million in property taxes.

    A mere pittance to make such a fuss about!

    Posted by Benchrest at 07/08/2009 @ 10:03pm

73. Yo, KVH, do you remember when Chris Matthews was criticizing Bush as a man who got to where he was because of his father/family? Well, wouldn't it be fair to apply that to ALL of the Kennedy's and even some of those idiotic elitist liberals that have infected our media by way of their family/parents' power. Let's start with YOU, or maybe that little twerp, Anderson Cooper, who in no way, shape or form got his job, or any opportunity, due to the fact that Gloria Vanderbilt is his mother? You are the poster child for HYPOCRISY!

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 10:06pm

74. Too bad Cheney wasn't hunting today at Mt. Rushmore! 2 errant shots could have made my day, bitches!

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 10:10pm

75. Posted by Benchrest at 07/08/2009 @ 9:52pm

    hey there, bencher.

    oh, i've eaten lots and lots of hot dogs. just ask my arteries.

    i can understand ms. kvh's frustration, but having locos like barry and larry (sorry to lump you in there; you're o.k. by me; i hope you'll find jesus one day) is just like the real world.

    the open discussion is the whole point.....

    i don't know why she keeps singling out mask, however. he may be annoying and never give his own opinion (heheh) but he's a good friend and this place wouldn't be the same without him (or his insight).

    this place is like the supermarket -- you can choose hotdogs or you can choose sweet potatoes.....

    i wonder if they had to hide the homeless people for the michael jackson thingy.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 10:10pm

76. By the time we even get close to running out of oil sometime in the 22nd century, we won't even be using it anymore.

    Posted by antisocialist at 07/08/2009 @ 7:39pm

    ever heard of plastic?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 10:11pm

77. posted by srjenkins at 07/08/2009 @ 6:50pm

    then again, what we know about genetics may only be the tip of the iceberg.

    the smaller the scale, the bigger the universe.

    and then there's epigenetics.

    and corn......

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 10:14pm

78. "i don't know why she keeps singling out mask"

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 10:10pm

    Hell hath no fury like love turned to hate.

    Posted by Benchrest at 07/08/2009 @ 10:16pm

79. The bottom line is that we need drastic population control and we are going to have to do away with globalization as envisioned in 1990s America. That's not going to work.

    Posted by srjenkins at 07/08/2009 @ 7:55pm

    well, population control yes. and the best population control is education.

    as far as globalization is concerned, there's no stopping that and i believe it is a good thing. after all, even canadians can post here.

    of course, it will all be for nought if we can't learn to be less greedy.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 10:18pm

80. It's a no-brainer, which is why I am so sure, albeit sad, that we're fucked due to the election of Obama and the socialism/marxism he and his fellow liberals have imposed on all of us. Kiss your liberties goodbye (unless you are a islamic terrorist, or maybe a pedophile). In 10 years, you'll have a much different opinion!

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 8:30pm

    incoherent rubbish.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 10:21pm

81. I've got to hand Ms. KvH some credit.....for getting in the pit swinging......you go, girl!

    PS: Can you ask Nichols to drop down and engage....:~)

    PS II: Tell Nichols that we appreciate the fact that he's stopped peddling his impeachy book.

    Posted by Happy at 07/08/2009 @ 10:21pm

82. Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 8:30pm

    incoherent rubbish.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 10:21pm

    Frosty, meet Icee!

    Posted by Happy at 07/08/2009 @ 10:23pm

83. Losers you are, kvh

    Posted by Katrina vanden Heuvel at 07/08/2009 @ 9:32pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Gosh , now I feel I am being shunned for not arriving at this thread sooner! (At least I'm not Canadian like frosty, I just live on the N.Canadian river)

    Posted by BigPasture at 07/08/2009 @ 10:24pm

84. I just live on the N.Canadian river)

    Posted by BigPasture at 07/08/2009 @ 10:24pm

    "just"?

    Spoiled are we?

    That is a beautiful river, especially where you live.

    I have alot of horns hanging on my walls that came from that river in canadian county.

    Posted by Benchrest at 07/08/2009 @ 10:29pm

85. "Excerpt from The Health Care Crisis: "My younger brother, a combat decorated veteran of the Vietnam conflict, died three weeks after being diagnosed with colon cancer. He was laid off from his job and could not afford COBRA coverage. When he was in enough pain to see a doctor, it was too late. He left a wife and two teenage sons in the prime of his life at 50 years old. The attending doctor said that if he had only sought treatment earlier he would still be alive." --Jim, Swanton, VT"

    Sad to hear of the death of an American Veteran, but it does pose the question of why NOONE seems to have mentioned to this guy or his family that he was eligible to visit a "government" healthcare facility called a Veterans Hospital!!!! Did someone miss something????

    Posted by BigPasture at 07/08/2009 @ 10:31pm

86. Bernie sanders continues to hit the nail on the head. I fear though that his is a voice in the wilderness.

    I notice that the neocons are out in full force on healthcare. More posters here from the fringe right than fleas on a dog. They sound more desperate and loony than ever.

    They are scared. That might be a good sign.

    Posted by chaoszen at 07/08/2009 @ 10:33pm

87. Excerpt from The Health Care Crisis: "It is inexcusable that over 30 percent of our health care dollar is wasted on bureaucracy. It is tragic and wrong that over 20,000 Americans die each year and many more are injured and bankrupted because they lack insurance. It is infuriating to have our hands tied by insurance companies, to have to jump through hoops to get what we know our patients need. No wonder the number of new primary care physicians is plummeting...!" --Dr. Susan, Colchester, VT

    Uhhhh.... whats up doc? Just how much of that inexcusable 30% of that healthcare dollar is "wasted" defending against healthcare fraud that is rampant?

    Did you know the U.S. gov. spends NOTHING to fight fraud and about 50% of Medicare-Medicaid is suspected to be FRAUD! I say spend the 30% now!

    What about the $100,000,000. of medicare fraud perpetrated out of a storefront in Detroit they just now found out about that has been ongoing for decades? They did find a really empty storfront when the government finally got around to checking!!!!

    Posted by BigPasture at 07/08/2009 @ 10:38pm

88. "The sister in law of one of my co-workers is a 42-year-old single mom who was just diagnosed with breast cancer which has spread to her brain. She has two young kids and was given 3-6 months to live. She is insured, but the co-pays and deductibles are so enormous that she is being forced to file for bankruptcy. Imagine facing death knowing you have 2 young kids. That is bad enough, but add to that financial troubles which have magnified this already horrendous situation. It is a national disgrace." --Deb, Montpelier, VT

    Truely a sad story, but the good news is her debts are uncollectable, as are any credit card debts she owes, and the bright side is her children will collect more social security survivors benefits than SHE could ever have made working (about $800. min. monthly each) until they are 18yrs old! Oh, and they will have their health needs taken care of also by medicare unless officially adopted!!!

    Posted by BigPasture at 07/08/2009 @ 10:44pm

89. They are scared. That might be a good sign.

    Posted by chaoszen at 07/08/2009 @ 10:33pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Beats being incurrably stupid and dependent on the government sugarteat!

    Posted by BigPasture at 07/08/2009 @ 10:47pm

90. I have alot of horns hanging on my walls that came from that river in canadian county.

    Posted by Benchrest at 07/08/2009 @ 10:29pm

    What kinda "horns" can come from "that river"?

    Posted by Happy at 07/08/2009 @ 10:48pm

91. Posted by Benchrest at 07/08/2009 @ 10:29pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    In one evening saw two flocks turkey 25 and 30, along with a 30+ deer head count, all from just the road in the fall.

    Posted by BigPasture at 07/08/2009 @ 10:50pm

92. Stumped em', big pasture, way to go! Facts anger libs, and the examples of fraud and gov't waste/theft that you just provided are the reasons I resent any and all taxation in today's america. I'd be happy to throw in a little extra in taxes if i thought it would help somebody who actually deserved it! Liberals like KVH try to avoid taxes, while calling for higher taxes on others. This, in my mind, shows that the KVH's of the world really don't believe their tax dollar will make a difference either,which is why they NEVER pay extra in taxes, which is an actual option (but i know none of you hypocritical libs use it), and actually, as in KVH's case along with Theresa Hienze Kerry,(a woman whose fortune came from the spreading of her legs), try to AVOID paying as much in taxes as possible and are willing to invest money to avoid paying the beloved taxes the propagate about! I'm riiping you apart, limb from limb, KVH, now show a spine and defend yourself, TRUST-FUNDER! By the way, Sara Palin is far more woman than you'll ever be, far more talented, stong, self-sufficient etc. and I'm sure she'd kick you whiny liberal ass in a street fight! Maybe you'd be willing to set one up, and the proceeds could go to your " help KVH and her rich family avoid paying anymore in taxes" fund! I'd pay to see that! LOL!

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 10:58pm

93. Shut em' up! I cannot tell you how many times i've cornered a lib like KVH on this site, but each and every time i do it, my day is made! Goodnight loser libs, wake up and get a job then pay extra in taxes so you're not such a hypocrite!!

    Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 11:03pm

94. barry, time to lay off the meth....

    Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 11:06pm

95. What kinda "horns" can come from "that river"?

    Posted by Happy at 07/08/2009 @ 10:48pm |

    Whitetail horns alot biggern you grow em on those oversized jackrabbits in Texas.

    Posted by Benchrest at 07/08/2009 @ 11:09pm

96. This thread promotes the social welfare for those less fortunate...

    Which these days is more popular than Ol' Rush Limbaugh's gut...

    While barry vent's his spastic spleen in 'full press' caustic spite...

    The left and center work together and leave off with the fight...

    The call is on, their game is up, aggression is passe...

    The people's choice, compassion's will, the economics pay...

    It's up to us, now, everyone... we've networks and a mission...

    We will be heard if we speak up without the 'right's' permission...

    The hour is late our need is great to occupy our senses...

    Reform is wrought by public see... not sitting on safe fences...

    The force we gathered effortlessly to place Obama thither...

    Is what we're asked by him to find... that unity can't wither.

    Posted by ttr at 07/09/2009 @ 02:00am

97. Barry 25: You are a typical republican bullshit talking coward! Nothing that you said is true. In your sick, pathetic, twisted, racist mind it is true to you. But noone here gives a fuck what your demented, uneducated bullshit ass has to say! ALL of us in here, takes PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY! Where the fuck YOUR SICK MIND dreamed that bullshit up is anyones guess. You like all republicans are liars, cowards and most definitely criminals. The crimes the bush/cheney crime family committed may never be prosecuted, but you don't have a single issue with what they did. You and your sick party are more interested in keeping Americans scared out of their minds, stealing their money to pay for the loses we have incurred over the last 8 years and spending limitless amounts of money on wars that should never have happened. My only bitch is that the Democrats don't have the guts to actually stand up and declare that liberal ideas are great and that they fully intend to prosecute bush and cheney until they are in prison for the rest of their lives. You are one dumb, uneducated son of a bitch!!!

    Posted by Tiger2Lover at 07/09/2009 @ 04:27am

98. Barry 25: The fact that you are actually ignorant enough to compare the bush family to the Kennedy's is insane. I wish that I or any number of liberals could debate you in PERSON, on national television and humiliate you! The fact that you believe what you just said about John, Bobby and Teddy vs. the bush crime family has got to be the most idiotic statement made by you! You need to read books and the facts! Comparing Kennedy to bush is tantamount to comparing a genius to an illiterate child with severe learning disabilities. You are seriously stupid!

    Posted by Tiger2Lover at 07/09/2009 @ 04:34am

99. Christianity emphasizes sharing and taking care of your neighbors. I consider taxes as a form of sharing.

    Posted by ilovesharing at 07/08/2009 @ 6:14pm

    I suppose if your neighbor knocked on your door, pointed a gun to your head, and demanded money, and you forked over what you had....you would consider that was sharing, too. Pathetic.

    Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 06:04am

100. I notice that the neocons are out in full force on healthcare. More posters here from the fringe right than fleas on a dog. They sound more desperate and loony than ever.

     They are scared. That might be a good sign.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/08/2009 @ 10:33pm

     You give them more credit than they are due. Fleas on a dog aren't nearly as annoying or stupid.

     As far as any radical changes to health care taking place, I think the odds are better that the U.S. will have a perfect high speed rail system that connects every major city.....NOT!.

     Obama is starting to show his true colors. He's basically a republican lite candidate. He won't ruffle any feathers on the other side of the isle and he sure as hell won't challenge the folks with big $.

     He's all for letting the Bush administration weasel their way out of the crimes they committed by stonewalling and any information he has access to. He's vowed to veto a bill if the House of Representatives try to write a bill allowing them more access to CIA briefings instead of blindly giving power to the executive branch to start wars at will.

     As Mask points out, he's not W, but he sure as hell ain't acting like a democrat either. At best he's Bill Clinton who I always viewed as a republican lite candidate as well.

     Unless the democratic party starts representing it's constituents, they better look out. I've pretty much been a solid democrat my whole life, but if they get into power and just sit on their asses, I guess I'll stop voting or vote for 3rd party candidates in protest of the corrupt folks they put forward for us to vote for.

     My one vote is meaningless, but if a large enough majority of voters let these morons know we mean business, then, and only then, will they change the way they do businesss.

     Posted by Wolfgang1 at 07/09/2009 @ 06:30am

101. KVH, speaking of clueless, shameles, sad, dispicable of character etc. I'd like to say that "limosine liberal's" like yourself, born with silver spoon in mouth, who choose to belt out idiotic propaganda from the rooftops of their mansions, paid for and provided by thier PARENTS, are the most clueless, and hypocritical of all. How can a spoiled little brat like yourself, whose family has spent lots of money and time finding ways to avoid paying taxes on their fortune (this is fact, don't make me site it)all the while calling for higher taxes on others, act as if you have ANY clue as to how the real world works, feels like, or even looks! You are typical of many elitist liberals that I know, although they are not nearly as rich as you (rich, but not by your own doing, you little trust-funder), who propagate about a society they haven't ever lived in. I went to the schools in the hood, I got shot at, I watched my mother try to feed 3 children by herself on 3.50 an hour. You, on the other hand, along with you elitist, trust-funder, red-diaper-doper-babies that have lots of money, and a little power, have never experience anything close to the REAl WORLD! Liberals respect people like you, KVH, I don't!

     Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 9:57pm | ignore this person | do you know any libearals? seriously, you have this stereotpye in your head of what EVERY SINGLE LIBERAL IS LIKE, and you cant break from it. guess the fuck what, were not all rich bastards, alot of us arent even middle class. we just give a shit about other people and want i higher standard of living for all. personal attacks dont change that. the fact that all you have is insults based on your assumptions rather then facts simply makes you a moron incapable of intelligent debate. i

     Posted by nathantankus at 07/09/2009 @ 07:18am

102. i know conservatives and have a respect for some of them and their ability to defend their positions. you make those conservatives look very bad. go back to your factless liberal hating yahoo group or wherever you dumbass's fester and sulk about your inability to provide an intelligible argument about anything.

     Posted by nathantankus at 07/09/2009 @ 07:22am

103. Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 10:14pm

     True enough. But, you are basically getting at whether there are other things going on that will mess up a risk model enough. I don't think so. Any mechanism to filter people out, even one as simple as using BMI, by the insurance industry will likely force a socialization of medicine.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/08/2009 @ 10:18pm

     The best population control is tubal ligation and vasectomy. There's a reason why we spay and neuter our animals - because it works.

     For temporary measures, it is difficult to beat Norplant. That's why they use it in places with high populations, like Bangladesh.

     You posting here is not globalization. You are making the mistake of conflating virtual reality with reality. A 1,000+ mile food chain is both wasteful and stupid - same goes for practically any commodity and many consumer products.

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 06:04am

     Is that what they did when they were talking about "Shock and Awe"? It sure felt like it to my wallet.

     Posted by srjenkins at 07/09/2009 @ 07:35am

104. Posted by Katrina vanden Heuvel at 07/08/2009 @ 9:32pm

     I've got to say, if that is the REAL Katrina vanden Heuvel, and not some poser who has used a HotMail or Gmail account to grab that nick....

     I'm a bit shocked and quite disappointed. First, for the ad hominem attacks for what was (in my first post) a MILD bit of sarcasm and statement that her goal of a single-payer system would not be enacted.

     Second, for the immediate leap to place me in the company of a much more vehement right-winger than I could EVER be....Larry/antisocialist....and WORSE, a known frothing-at-the-mouth type like barry25.

     Is it just that she so rarely reads these blog postings that she thinks that EVERYBODY who disagrees with her and does so with a BIT of snarkiness... is a Glenn Beck or Michael Savage fan. I suppose. Otherwise it would indicate that despite OTHER comments I've made on her and other Nation writers' articles don't "cut me any slack" and I get tarred as "another Hard Right troll" or something.

     Does this enhance her credibility?

     Posted by Mask at 07/09/2009 @ 08:11am

105. the fact that all I have is insults based on my ass umptions rather then facts simply makes me a moron incapable of intelligent debate. Posted by nathantankus at 07/09/2009 @ 07:18am | ignore this person | warn this person

     Posted by emile duBois at 07/09/2009 @ 08:16am

106. whose family has spent lots of money and time finding ways to avoid paying taxes on their fortune (this is fact, don't make me site it)all the while calling for higher taxes on others, Posted by nathantankus at 07/09/2009 @ 07:18am

     If KVH is such a super rich elitist liberal, why in the world would she advocate raising taxes on what you call "others". I notice that you didn't mention that those "others" are the top 1%.

     Your vicious crude attacks sound more like the frothings of a mad dog than any reasoned criticism. And when you make stupid statements like the elite advocating raising taxes on the elite, you credibility (if you ever had any) goes down the loo..

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 08:22am

107. Posted by Mask at 07/09/2009 @ 08:11am

     Don't get yer knickers in a bunch there Mask. It's unbecoming. And besides you may be right. It might not have been her at all.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 08:29am

108. Obama is starting to show his true colors. He's basically a republican lite candidate. Posted by Wolfgang1 at 07/09/2009 @ 06:30am

     I have been saying that for awhile now. So you are preaching to the choir. I changed my party to Green right after I held my nose and voted for Obama. I changed it when I got my drivers license renewed. Guess what?

     When I got my new voter registration card it said "Democrat". I guess somebody at the DMV decided I should remain a Democrat. Now I have to go down there and try again. Makes me wonder..

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 08:34am

109. How is something like Barry25's rant allowed on a respectable news source's website? Ideologues and demagogues stay home, if you have nothing constructive to say. Barry25 is one more example of a bitter American duped by the rugged individualism pathology that America's elite likes to preach to the masses in order to divide and conquer. Think before you speak Barry.

     Posted by Jetfly83 at 07/09/2009 @ 08:39am

110. I posted earlier from a secure location in my bunker in Nebraska, (A hotel room on my iPod Touch). Boy those things are difficult to post on. But I found out at least I can.. Much easier at home though.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 08:41am

111. How is something like Barry25's rant allowed on a respectable news source's website? Posted by Jetfly83 at 07/09/2009 @ 08:39am

     Because lefties believe in free speech and other constitutional niceties. Try and post on wingnut website or call into a rightie tightie talk show. You will be shown the door and given the bum's rush.

     Free Speech is not allowed in wingnut society. Only lockstep adherence to wingnut agenda and sociopathic principles.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 08:47am

112. America spends 17% GDP on healthcare now, right now. And for that sum, can only give access to some 80% of it's people. Around the other modern countries on this planet, countries are mostly using some form of "single payer", using an average of 10% GDP to insure access to healthcare, for everyone of their citizens. Add to that, that in every one of those society's, their people are living almost three years longer than Americans. One more caveat, in those countries with single payer, no one goes bankrupt from healthcare bills. But I see on this "debate" forum, some idiotic right wing blather disparaging this single payer system. What about failure don't these right wing nuts get? I fully understand why Baucus and other paid for and bought politicians shy away from single payer, but what kind of common sense is lacking in those right wing idiots on here? Or is it simply the old right wing prejudice, that a persons worth in this society is measured by the size of one's wallet? For the first time in history, over half of the people aren't paying income tax? Wrong! See 1913.

     Posted by willhort at 07/09/2009 @ 08:48am

113. Cuz Oscar Mayer has a way with B-o-l-o-g-n-a!! Posted by Benchrest at 07/08/2009 @ 9:26pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     yech. try some good Mortadella instead.

     Posted by emile duBois at 07/09/2009 @ 08:49am

114. mask, antisocialist, barry 25, leave and take a hike. I wish to hear and read INTELLIGENT arguments, debate, posts. You are incapable of such. Leave this space. I find you odious of view, despicable of character, clueless, shameless, sad. Go take a hike on appalachian trail--though that beautiful piece of land too fine for you misfits. I suggest you just leave. I find you, to repeat, lowest of low. Stale, and lifeless. Maybe go take a shot at politics in your communities and make it or lose. Losers you are, kvh Posted by Katrina vanden Heuvel at 07/08/2009 @ 9:32pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     GOSH, I LOVE THIS KIND OF TALK.

     those three are featured in my ignore list.

     Posted by emile duBois at 07/09/2009 @ 08:54am

115. Posted by emile duBois at 07/09/2009 @ 08:49am

     lotta kids grew up listening to those jingles.

     "Oh, I wish I were an Oscar Mayer wiener..."

     simpler times....

     Posted by Benchrest at 07/09/2009 @ 08:54am

116. yech. try some good Mortadella instead.

     Posted by emile duBois at 07/09/2009 @ 08:49am

     Yummy. But have you ever tried to find Mortadella in Des Moines, IA.

     I'm ashamed to admit I have Oscar Mayer Lite Beef Bologna in the fridge.. Not my first choice.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 08:55am

117. those three are featured in my ignore list.

     Posted by emile duBois at 07/09/2009 @ 08:54am

     Gee.. I could be on that list, in which case my previous post was a waste of time.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 08:57am

118. Thanks very much for this interesting, substantive interview with Senator Sanders. He is a rare combination of intelligence and compassion, and I'm glad he took time to share his views.

     I hope the Senator will consider reforms that are considerably less ambitious than single payer. Requiring everyone to obtain catastrophic health insurance (with subsidies for those in financial distress), coupled with dismantling barriers to competition among health insurers, would go a long way.

     Posted by coastofutopia at 07/09/2009 @ 09:07am

119. Posted by willhort at 07/09/2009 @ 08:48am

     You know whats really weird. Most of the right wingers, middle wingers and the left know this. At least the ones who are not crazy or ignorant. But even given that all your facts are in order. The powerful lobbies for the profit mongering healthcare and pharma industry have most politicians in their pocket.

     This is the direct result of not having public financing of elections. Which is another subject. There are only a few politicians in Washington that are not on the take. Bernie Sanders and Dennis Kucinich are two, and there are a few others. But not enough to make the difference we need.

     A single payer healthcare system is supported by a majority of Americans. But their voices are ignored even under enormous public pressure. I'm afraid if we don't push hard for campaign finance reform none of these other things will fall into line.

     And the chances of getting meaningful campaign finance reform are significantly less than getting meaningful healthcare reform. Catch22.

     The only solution I can see is mass demonstrations in Washington for both. And I don't mean a few people causing civil disobedience. I mean a couple million people demanding it. In no uncertain terms.

     I'm ready, but I need another 1,999,999 people to join me.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 09:16am

120. Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 08:29am

     No "knicker-bunching", chaos....true disappointment. This doesn't seem like the same woman I've seen on "Hardball" or 'This Week"...it sounds more like somebody who'd appear on "Hannity" or the old "Morton Downey Jr. Show".

     But not totally out of character either. Plus, remember this is the same person who said MSNBC was "sexist"...yet continued to go on Chris Matthews and made no further mention of his "sexism" since.

     Posted by Mask at 07/09/2009 @ 09:17am

121. Posted by coastofutopia at 07/09/2009 @ 09:07am

     What you advocate is a quarter measure that will never work. We need Comprehensive Single Payer Healthcare Reform in order to get the economic,humanitarian and cost effective benefits of a solid single payer program.

     For Profit Healthcare needs to be made Unlawful. It is a moral disgrace. Many countries with single payer programs have outlawed for profit healthcare of any kind. The misery of others is not something that should be included in the idea of "free enterprise", it should be out of bounds.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 09:29am

122. who said MSNBC was "sexist"...yet continued to go on Chris Matthews and made no further mention of his "sexism" since.

     Posted by Mask at 07/09/2009 @ 09:17am

     Maybe access to the large public forum that the MSM provides was worth more than getting into a pissing contest with Chris Matthews. Ya think?

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 09:31am

123. This is the direct result of not having public financing of elections. Which is another subject. Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 09:16am

     Not this lame statement again.

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 09:42am

124. Not this lame statement again.

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 09:42am

     You make a totally "lame" statement by not explaining why campaign finance reform is in your adolescent terminology "lame". You can't do a drive by in this forum without being asked to explain yourself. Maybe you get away with that kind of crap elsewhere.

     But it holds no water here. It just makes plain that you have your ignorance hanging out. Zip it up. And come up with an argument to support your assertion.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 09:55am

125. Sorry dude, but I responded to it the last time you made it. I guess you didn't read it.

     The argument is real simple. Just ask yourself one question...try to think ahead for once. WHO do you think will write the legislation that would establish the rules and regulations of public financing of political campaigns? It doesn't take a genius to figure out, but the very same bunch of idiots in D.C. (Rep and Dem alike) that you are constantly railing against....that's who. Think about that for a moment, will you? Now, in my world that doesn't make any sense. Maybe it does in yours.

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 10:04am

126. the fact that all I have is insults based on my ass umptions rather then facts simply makes me a moron incapable of intelligent debate. Posted by nathantankus at 07/09/2009 @ 07:18am | ignore this person | warn this person

     Posted by emile duBois at 07/09/2009 @ 08:16am | ignore this person | warn this person

     what assumptions did i make?

     Posted by nathantankus at 07/09/2009 @ 10:07am

127. Chaozen, Check the time stamp on this. And you called me ignorant?

     The most important thing we can do to correct a corrupt political process is public financing of elections.......They should be run out of Washington on a rail. Posted by chaoszen at 07/02/2009 @ 12:57pm

     I see this from time to time and it just makes me laugh. Public financing of elections? Chaoszen, you should stop and think before you write such dumb suggestions. Who is going to write the legislation for the public financing of elections? The very same group of idiots who you want to run out of D.C. on a rail...that's who. In my world, that does not make sense. In your world, it might.

     We already have the opportunity to run these people out of Wash. every two years.

     Posted by fram at 07/03/2009 @ 12:19pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 10:09am

128. "whose family has spent lots of money and time finding ways to avoid paying taxes on their fortune (this is fact, don't make me site it)all the while calling for higher taxes on others, Posted by nathantankus at 07/09/2009 @ 07:18am

     If KVH is such a super rich elitist liberal, why in the world would she advocate raising taxes on what you call "others". I notice that you didn't mention that those "others" are the top 1%.

     Your vicious crude attacks sound more like the frothings of a mad dog than any reasoned criticism. And when you make stupid statements like the elite advocating raising taxes on the elite, you credibility (if you ever had any) goes down the loo.. Posted by chaoszen " are you responding to me? if so i never said anything near that effect. i was quoting barry25.

     Posted by nathantankus at 07/09/2009 @ 10:09am

129. Firstly, I'm not a "Dude". I don't wear a cowboy hat or run a ranch for city folk to "ride the range".

     Secondly, I read your previous post on the subject and found it lacking in any real substantial insight into the subject. And so did not respond.

     Anyone who bothers to read anything on the subject knows that sane legislation on campaign finance reform has been introduced. And sponsored by the likes of Bernie Sanders. Whom I believe is the subject of this post.

     But if you bothered to read any of my posts you would also understand that I personally think these changes are highly unlikely, and that the few legislators who are actually honest in congress are like voices in the wilderness.

     And my suggestion as the action of last resort was a March on Washington in numbers of at least 2 million people to demand Healthcare Reform and Campaign Finance Reform.

     The March would have to be strictly limited to these two issues. Any more and it would lose the point on point emphasis necessary to exact change.

     If too many issues were presented it would devolve into a messy and ineffective protest.

     That is my suggestion. But don't worry about me. I'm just a truck driver from Des Moines..

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 10:26am

130. I've got to say, if that is the REAL Katrina vanden Heuvel, and not some poser who has used a HotMail or Gmail account to grab that nick....

     Posted by Mask at 07/09/2009 @ 08:11am

     i'd say that's her. or at least the same person who always poses as her because the style is the same as previous posts under the same nick.

     a kind of stream of semi-consciousness often missing verbs and/or prepositions....

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 10:29am

131. yech. try some good Mortadella instead.

     Posted by emile duBois at 07/09/2009 @ 08:49am

     yech. try some good raspberries instead.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 10:32am

132. If KVH is such a super rich elitist liberal, why in the world would she advocate raising taxes on what you call "others". Posted by nathantankus at 07/09/2009 @ 10:09am

     Because liberal rich elitists don't pay taxes. Geithner, Rangel, Daschle, Sebelius.....

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 10:33am

133. Posted by Mask at 07/09/2009 @ 08:11am & Posted by Mask at 07/09/2009 @ 09:17am

     Use Occam's Razor, Mask.

     Would a editor use such atrocious grammar, a non sequitur like the Appalachian Trial (which I believe is now a euphemism for adultery), and tell conservatives to shut up (which will have the exact opposite effect)? If she was going to go this route, why not just delete those accounts?

     Or, does it make more sense that it is the work of a troll?

     I think the latter makes more sense, and not that I approve of it, but it is a pretty clever example of trolling for this forum.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 09:16am

     Demonstrations? Because having hundred of thousands show up to protest war in D.C. did a whole lot to change things. If you are going to go this route, you should be prepared to advocate direct action in local communities. DC demonstrations don't accomplish much.

     I also don't think you appreciate the full problem of elections. It's bigger than financial reform. As the old saw goes, "If elections changed anything, they'd be outlawed."

     That said, I do think you are right about single payer.

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 10:04am

     It is possible to set-up a decentralized single payer health care system, is it not? So, even though practically you have a good point, there isn't anything theoretically wrong in chaoszen's position.

     Posted by nathantankus at 07/09/2009 @ 10:09am

     Here's a useful detail for you, managing editors for relatively small circulation publications don't make a lot of money. You're talking generally less than $50k. Maybe KvH makes slightly more because she lives in New York. So, unless she has a trust fund, she's not living high on the hog.

     Posted by srjenkins at 07/09/2009 @ 10:34am

134. If KVH is such a super rich elitist liberal, why in the world would she advocate raising taxes on what you call "others". Posted by nathantankus at 07/09/2009 @ 10:09am

     Because liberal rich elitists don't pay taxes. Geithner, Rangel, Daschle, Sebelius.....

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 10:33am please stop attributing this to me. i did not say this.

     Posted by nathantankus at 07/09/2009 @ 10:38am

135. Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 10:33am

     "Because liberal rich elitists don't pay taxes. Geithner, Rangel, Daschle, Sebelius..."

     If you make in the millions, you hire lawyers that put your money in trusts, business ventures and other activities that don't show up as personal income. It's not a liberal problem, it's a rich problem. Also, this is particularly amusing given Jack Abramoff and the non-stop corruption in the Republican Congress. Your liberal rich elitist argument is pretty sad.

     Posted by srjenkins at 07/09/2009 @ 10:39am

136. The argument is real simple. Just ask yourself one question...try to think ahead for once. WHO do you think will write the legislation that would establish the rules and regulations of public financing of political campaigns? It doesn't take a genius to figure out, but the very same bunch of idiots in D.C. (Rep and Dem alike) that you are constantly railing against....that's who. Think about that for a moment, will you? Now, in my world that doesn't make any sense. Maybe it does in yours.

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 10:04am

     well, we've got public financing here, written by the politicians.

     it ain't perfect, but it sure is better.

     also, perhaps a rule limiting campaigns to something less than the current 17 years would help...

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 10:41am

137. Because liberal rich elitists don't pay taxes. Geithner, Rangel, Daschle, Sebelius.....

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 10:33am

     just rich "liberals"?......

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 10:43am

138. geithner is a liberal?!?!?!?!?!???!??!?

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 10:43am

139. Would a editor use such atrocious grammar, a non sequitur like the Appalachian Trial (which I believe is now a euphemism for adultery), and tell conservatives to shut up (which will have the exact opposite effect)? If she was going to go this route, why not just delete those accounts?

     Posted by srjenkins at 07/09/2009 @ 10:34am

     like i said up there, this is exactly the same style someone using the same nick has always posted in on these kvh threads.

     if it were a troll, i think they would have deleted THAT account by now.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 10:46am

140. i was quoting barry25.

     Posted by nathantankus at 07/09/2009 @ 10:09am

     Hard to tell that since you didn't place quotes around the statement of Barry25 or copy and paste the reference to Barry25 until 3/4's of the way down the post. It looks like your words. Sorry if they were not.

     I have limited time and speedread many posts in order to respond to the nonsense.

     Sorry if I picked on you.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 10:48am

141. Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 09:31am

     So does that mean she's go on....Glenn Beck or O'Reilly?

     Posted by srjenkins at 07/09/2009 @ 10:34am

     I hope you're right, SR.

     Posted by Mask at 07/09/2009 @ 10:48am

142. Secondly, I read your previous post on the subject and found it lacking in any real substantial insight into the subject. And so did not respond.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 10:26am | ignore this person

     Ahhh, but you did respond. You responded above when you called me out to explain myself. If you had actually read the earlier July 3rd post, I don't think you would have asked me to repeat myself. At the very least, you would have pointed to any flaws in my statement. Alas, you did not. Excuse me for not believing your assertion.

     "campaign finance reform has been introduced. And sponsored by the likes of Bernie Sanders"

     Do you have a Senate bill number? I'd like to read it.

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 10:49am

143. Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 10:46am

     So are you saying that it was actually a KVH post? Since in this forum it is possible to create multiple niks, what makes you think that just because the account may have been deleted in the past it was not possible to resurrected it?

     Excuse me if I misinterpreted your response.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 10:53am

144. Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 10:46am

     agreed.

     we discussed the etiology of the sentence structure errors etc. in the past and I still stand by that assertion.

     it is KVH.

     Posted by Benchrest at 07/09/2009 @ 10:56am

145. I forgot the word "have" between to and resurrected.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 10:57am

146. Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 10:46am

     That's a good point. However, it isn't used very often, so they could just miss it. I think this is only the second time I've seen it, and I reckon I read more posts than KvH or anyone on her staff.

     The other option is that they don't much care. Or, they have a policy against deleting accounts. There are lots of plausible explanations. The least plausible is that KvH signs on in the evening to spend some quality time reading posts at The Nation while spending all day working there - and she posts little short diatribes every now and again? I'm sorry, I just don't buy it.

     Posted by srjenkins at 07/09/2009 @ 10:57am

147. rich people are only a problem when they are liberal.

     Posted by emile duBois at 07/09/2009 @ 10:59am

148. Hard to jump to conclusions for me. It may have been her and it may have not. But may I remind you all we have all posted here in anger and frustration. And when the passion is on us we all say things we regret later.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 11:01am

149. Because liberal rich elitists don't pay taxes. Geithner, Rangel, Daschle, Sebelius..... Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 10:33am | ignore this person | warn this person

     you are misleading here. the above paid most if not ALL their taxes. how about you? you sure you paid ALL your taxes? what about conservative rich elitists? they pay ALL their taxes?

     bring back the 90% top tax bracket. we need it now more than we did in the past, when that bracket was used.

     Posted by emile duBois at 07/09/2009 @ 11:06am

150. with liberal rich people there is such a thing as noblesse oblige. both Katerina, her sister, and especially her dad have given back much to society, with their extensive public service. they deserve our respect and in my case my admiration.

     that noblesse thing used to apply to rich "conservatives" too, but now all they do is bitch about their taxes.

     Posted by emile duBois at 07/09/2009 @ 11:10am

151. If you make in the millions, you hire lawyers that put your money in trusts, business ventures and other activities that don't show up as personal income. It's not a liberal problem, it's a rich problem. Posted by srjenkins at 07/09/2009 @ 10:39am

     It's all pretty sad. It's not a rich problem either. It's a politician problem. Rangel writes the tax laws and he is one of the biggest cheats. Geithner tried to write off his son's summer camp expenses....his lawyers didn't.

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 11:19am

152. you are misleading here. the above paid most if not ALL their taxes. how about you? you sure you paid ALL your taxes? what about conservative rich elitists? they pay ALL their taxes?

     Posted by emile duBois at 07/09/2009 @ 11:06am

     I'm not misleading....I'm playing the same game your side plays. How many times must I read about those "rich evil republicans" only to have those same people completely ignore the corruption in the democrat circles? Jack Murtha anyone?

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 11:25am

153. i'd say that's her. or at least the same person who always poses as her because the style is the same as previous posts under the same nick.

     a kind of stream of semi-consciousness often missing verbs and/or prepositions....

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 10:29am

     It is her.

     The pattern has always been identical, for years.

     It could only have been her who invited you, personally, to go on the cruise. It was genuine and impossible to fake.

     It was her attack on you and the absolute disconnect she exhibited that raised the red flags.

     Posted by Benchrest at 07/09/2009 @ 11:35am

154. Do you have a Senate bill number? I'd like to read it.

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 10:49am

     Are you giving me an assignment? Obviously you have a computer. And I would hope you know how to Google the internets :) You know those darn things that are connected by a series of strings?

     Anyway I don't see why it is necessary for me to site anything when it is readily available on the "internets".

     But in this case I will provide it and play along.

     The "Fair Elections Now Act" (S. 752 and H.R. 1826)

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 11:43am

155. Bare assed 25

     This self professed "businessman" is another phony sitting in a swivel chair collecting checks from his family (the sheep keepers).

     This family, descended from a champion ewe is quite accustomed to having the "wool pulled over it's eyes" from little Bare who always needs just a bit more cash to get "over the hump."

     Do keep dippin little Bare & don't turn your back on the ram next time you check out the family spread & consort with your mistress, Fluffy the Ewe.

     Posted by Sorelish at 07/09/2009 @ 11:49am

156. Humility is indeed one of the noblest of human qualities. Neither you nor Frosty zoom have it. May we pray, secularly, that we will find citizens and leaders who have the requisite humility to understand the limits of military power. I would posit, however, that humility allied with confidence and joy --which neither of you have, for sure---is a valuable trait moving ahead at any time, especially these confronting us today. kvh

     Posted by Katrina vanden Heuvel at 01/20/2009 @ 12:17am

     with your post name, frosty zoom, no doubt you'd understand foggy cameras. Your visage and breath no doubt makes them foggy....Your senseless and insensitive postings will only fog up our times ahead.... kvh

     •••••

     sorry, mask, it's her.

     Posted by Katrina vanden Heuvel at 01/20/2009 @ 12:02am

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 11:54am

157. But in this case I will provide it and play along.

     The "Fair Elections Now Act" (S. 752 and H.R. 1826)

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 11:43am

     Many thanks....this is what I found:

     GovTrack.us is currently having some down time. Either the website is undergoing maintenance, or the site was shut down because of an error or high load.

     Why am I not surprised?

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 11:57am

158. Because liberal rich elitists don't pay taxes. Geithner, Rangel, Daschle, Sebelius.....

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 10:33am

     And I suppose right wing fascist corporate/government eltists all pay their taxes like good little patriots?

     What a joke. You compare apples to maggots and then expect your point to make sense? Muddy the water and jump through the looking glass in order to create smoke in the mirror?

     Been done before. And you are an amateur.. How funny that you would attempt that nonsense here. Unreal.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 11:57am

159. GovTrack.us is currently having some down time. Either the website is undergoing maintenance, or the site was shut down because of an error or high load. Why am I not surprised?

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 11:57am

     STATE DEPARTMENT STILL UNDER CYBERATTACK

     21 hours ago

     WASHINGTON (AFP) -- The US State Department said Wednesday it is probing the origin of a cyberattack against its website, which has been affected for three days running.

     "What I can tell you is the attack against our state.gov website started on July 5," State Department spokesman Ian Kelly told reporters. "It's still ongoing, but I'm told that it's much reduced right now."

     According to computer security experts, a dozen US government websites, including those of the White House, Pentagon and State Department, were targeted in a coordinated cyberattack which also struck sites in South Korea.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 12:00pm

160. Been done before. And you are an amateur.. How funny that you would attempt that nonsense here. Unreal.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 11:57am

     Wow, I must have touched a nerve. But then again you haven't disputed anything I've said. Instead you just went on the attack. Liberals are soooo easy to tweak.

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 12:03pm

161. Because liberal rich elitists don't pay taxes. Geithner, Rangel, Daschle, Sebelius.....

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 10:33am

     If you think any of the people you just listed are liberals, let alone representatives of the left, you are sadly mistaken.

     Sadly for you, but a roll on the floor laughing fest for a true leftie.

     You are so out of touch that it amazes me. I hope you are a true representative of the right. It means those of us on the true left are in good shape.

     Geitner? Leftie! He is one of yours. Wahtsamatter? Can't even recognize your own kind? Bwahaha.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 12:04pm

162. Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 11:54am

     I fear you're right, ol' buddy.

     Shame...she seems so "normal" on even the talking heads show. But somehow you're "joyless" and "insenstive"...

     and I'm "the same as" Larry and Barry?!?!?!?!????

     Posted by Mask at 07/09/2009 @ 12:06pm

163. But then again you haven't disputed anything I've said. Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 12:03pm

     How can I dispute anything you have said? That would be an excercise in futility. As you have said nothing.

     It is impossible for anyone to dispute or agree with Nothing.

     No substance. Kind of like a dog gnawing on a stripped bone. In human terms it would be as nourishing as a disturbed person neurotically chewing on their fingernails until they bleed.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 12:15pm

164. How can I dispute anything you have said? That would be an excercise in futility. As you have said nothing.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 12:15pm

     Lord, you gave them eyes yet they cannot see.

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 12:23pm

165. Liberals are soooo easy to tweak.

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 12:03pm

     I could actually agree with you there. Because I'm not a liberal. They are to wishy washy for my taste.

     I'm your worst nightmare. I'm a leftist. Not some namby pamby liberal who wants to compromise with a disease. There is a difference. Liberals and Progressives are almost as repugnant to me as you are.

     I don't compromise. I don't waiver or attempt appeasement. I want what is in my own best interest and am willing to go to any length to get it.

     Don't confuse me with a "liberal".

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 12:25pm

166. Posted by Katrina vanden Heuvel at 07/08/2009 @ 9:32pm

     Ms Vanden Heuvel,

     My first reaction to your post was to give you the benefit of the doubt and conclude that you either had a bad day or this was just a by-product of a very recent encounter with a disagreeable person.

     I continue to draw that conclusion given the posts from this thread that I had made prior to your diatribe and these additional facts. I have made it a point to thank you repeatedly for providing a forum for real debate among all segments of the political spectrum. I also make it a point to post in a manner consistent with my personal speech which never includes foul language. I have consistently posted documentation to backup my arguments.

     Perhaps you can enlighten me as to the "odious" nature of these posts?

     Posted by Mask at 07/08/2009 @ 3:54pm |

     For once, I hope you're right.

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/08/2009 @ 4:14pm

     We already know that many on the left want a middle class income retirement guaranteed to all seniors (and many want it prior to age 65). Should the govt guarantee you that lifestyle if you risk on housing and 401k's and you don't make your retirement comfort level?

     And back to risk in health insurance; how does the most successful healthcare provider in the country, Kaiser, continue to be successful as a NONPROFIT provider if they still bear risk? Just curious

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/08/2009 @ 6:34pm

     1.By the time we even get close to running out of oil sometime in the 22nd century, we won't even be using it anymore.

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/08/2009 @ 7:39pm

     You're Editorial expertise in revealing the odious nature of my comments will be greatly appreciated.

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 12:34pm

167. Lord, you gave them eyes yet they cannot see.

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 12:23pm

     So now you attempt to find refuge from your weakness in scripture? Grab that crutch Christian! When all else fails seek comfort in your book of Death.

     Meanwhile, those of us who seek life will carry your weight until you wake up. I just wish you would go to sleep for now. The weight we must carry distracts those of us who want evolution.

     But as weak and distracting as you are. As a buddhist I believe we must carry the weight.

     As we are only as strong as the weakest of us.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 12:43pm

168. I think if health care reform doesn't fail this year, then we are going to end up with a weak corporate insurance sellout reform that will shove some expensive mandatory health insurance down my throat that will only drive up the number of healthcare bankruptcies in America. However if the bill fails, then we can direct our progressive movement toward the next election and make every politician that got in the way of this have to leave on their pensions of health insurance lobby donations. Then we'll get some real reform with the next Congress with all the Republicans disguised as Democrats thrown out of my government. I see that strategy actually working, and I'm dying to see that government get another good sweeping in the next election. The best way for that objective if the failure of healthcare reform this year.

     Posted by dajson at 07/09/2009 @ 12:47pm

169. Wow. You hardworking, taxpaying rightwingers sure do have a lot of time on your hands, don't you. barry25 and antisocialist in particular don't seem to do anything but post comments all day to various articles on RCP. Where do you guys work? Seriously.

     Posted by bgabriel at 07/09/2009 @ 1:03pm

170. You're Editorial expertise in revealing the odious nature of my comments will be greatly appreciated.

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 12:34pm

     I can't speak for anyone else Anti. But for me your comments are not only odious, but evil.

     You care nothing for anyone or anything other than yourself. That goes beyond "odious". Which in my opinion lets you off easy.

     I have been posting here for quite awhile, and have read many of your posts.

     People like you tend to wear me out. And reading your many posts makes me weary. You lack empathy. You just don't seem to understand that we are all in this together. Not very Christian of you.

     You have this perverted world view that you are an individual, and your hubris is astonishing.. Sorry, but the reality is, all of us are related in a struggle to survive and learn. This is school and you are a non-feeling bully.

     Your complete lack of compassion for your fellow human beings and the planet you live on is startling.

     I'm surprised you miss this, as you are not stupid. Which makes the sin all the more unforgivable.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 1:06pm

171. Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 12:34pm

     While others of the right wing bent are raging lunatics with their barrage of profanity & vitriol, you by contrast are somewhat milder.

     Your presence on this site is akin to a nagging sewer gas upsurge problem from the plumbing that has defied correction.

     You are, in short, a real gas to have around, anti. We hear (and smell) ya.

     Posted by Sorelish at 07/09/2009 @ 1:07pm

172. chaoszen,

     You say you are a leftist.

     Does Darladoon agree?

     She hasn't been heard from much lately, but I remember recently she said Obama is NOT a leftist.

     From my perspective as a Conservative, Obama is quite far to the political left, quite a leftist.

     But Darladoon says no.

     So before saying you are a leftist, you had better check with Darladoon first.

     If Darladoon says you are a leftist, then you ARE a leftist.

     Posted by sjchermak at 07/09/2009 @ 1:13pm

173. Then there's frosty zoom, chaoszen, fram, and nathantankus all ruining this thread with a deluge of pointless backbiting back-and-forth drivel that says absolutely nothing regarding the subject here. Why don't you people take your personal arguements to IM or something, and get out of here. Ooops there I go. Now I'm just like them. Let me just add for the sake of not being a hypocrite that I think the only real solution to healthcare reform in America is the death of the corporate for-profit health insurance. They should be the losers here since what they do for profit is very arguably immoral as hell. I have always wanted the insurance industry to go bankrupt. I'm so close. Don't deny me my lifetime wish.

     Posted by dajson at 07/09/2009 @ 1:16pm

174. Where do you guys work? Seriously.

     Posted by bgabriel at 07/09/2009 @ 1:03pm

     They work for the RNC.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 1:17pm

175. "I also make it a point to post in a manner consistent with my personal speech which never includes foul language."

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 12:34pm

     "never" Larry?

     You said in 50 years of golf you "never" saw a fist bump.

     "never includes foul language."

     Aren't you the same person who cussed Wolfgang1 out like a sailor just before you put him on ignore?

     I will wait for your clarification before I repost your comments which definitely includes words (plural) that anyone would consider "foul".

     But I guess as a bona fide "prophet of God" it's OK when you cuss a blue streak secondary to losing your temper.

     Right?

     Posted by Benchrest at 07/09/2009 @ 1:27pm

176. Then there's frosty zoom, chaoszen, fram, and nathantankus all ruining this thread with a deluge of pointless backbiting back-and-forth drivel that says absolutely nothing regarding the subject here. Posted by dajson at 07/09/2009 @ 1:16pm

     Perhaps you should read all the posts on this thread before you deign to pass judgement. I believe most of us have addressed the issue at hand here.

     I can't speak for everyone but if you arrive late it is considered bad form to just jump in and present an inane remark.

     Most of us don't expend energy and time better well spent to ruin a thread.

     Read the entire thread then produce a cogent comment. Your obvious youth and inexperience in such matters is excepted.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 1:32pm

177. I can't speak for anyone else Anti. But for me your comments are not only odious, but evil.

     You care nothing for anyone or anything other than yourself. That goes beyond "odious". Which in my opinion lets you off easy.

     I have been posting here for quite awhile, and have read many of your posts.

     People like you tend to wear me out. And reading your many posts makes me weary. You lack empathy. You just don't seem to understand that we are all in this together. Not very Christian of you.

     You have this perverted world view that you are an individual, and your hubris is astonishing.. Sorry, but the reality is, all of us are related in a struggle to survive and learn. This is school and you are a non-feeling bully.

     Your complete lack of compassion for your fellow human beings and the planet you live on is startling.

     I'm surprised you miss this, as you are not stupid. Which makes the sin all the more unforgivable.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 1:06pm

     What your post actually reveals is your myopic worldview in that you believe that empathy, compassion, and caring can only be manifested through submission to a huge, controlling central govt.

     You may be one that gives all of your free time to helping others so I'm in no position to judge that one way or another.

     While we all can do more, I have no apologies or shame for the decades that I have spent helping those in need; both here and around the world.

     I have fed, clothed, sheltered, and provided living necessities to legal and illegal residents here. I have travelled to remote villages in Asia and Africa to help those who lack. We ran the largest weekly free grocery program for the needy in South Central LA for several years.

     Before you act so rashly, you ought to learn more

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 1:33pm

178. Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 1:33pm

     Perhaps a not entirely accurate attack on your by chaoszen, Larry....

     but it IS true that your political philosophy would allow things like....9 year olds to work in un-regulated coal mines-

     William Polk on Afghanistan posted by Katrina vanden Heuvel on 03/26/2009 @ 12:09pm

     Posted by Mask at 07/09/2009 @ 1:56pm

179. Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 1:33pm

     I have heard all your self professed accolades before.

     The only problem is, most people I know that relate their supposed humanitarian efforts and wear them like a badge are for the most part insincere in their self aggrandizing pronunciations.

     It is usually, for the most part false and self serving agggrandizing.

     By your very words you seem to be self serving and insincere.

     I have been fortunate to know people who care about others. And all of them do not flaunt it as an accolade.

     Strangely, you do.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 1:58pm

180. Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 11:54am

     The only thing this proves is you appear to have some hurt feelings. Why would KvH make these kinds of comments? It doesn't make any sense, and when things don't make sense, there's probably another explanation.

     Posted by Mask at 07/09/2009 @ 12:06pm

     The whole joyless thing is the give away. Even if you don't like FZ's perspective, he's clearly goofing around in his comments. The time stamps are again, weird.

     Posted by sjchermak at 07/09/2009 @ 1:13pm

     Why am I suddenly filled with the urge to say, "Idiot"?

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 1:17p

     Your conspiracy theories grow tiresome - and you're way too quick to label people as evil. LVL may have appallingly bad ideas. But, they are consistent. They are offered in good faith. They are just filtered through a world view that leads to bad conclusions.

     While this may be how a lot of evil happens in the world, it doesn't make people evil in and of themselves. In Christian parlance, you'd call it hating the sin but not the sinner.

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 1:33pm

     He's got an authoritarian streak, just like you. The only difference is you justify your support for huge, controlling central government in the form of "defense" on Constitutional grounds. But, practically, there is little difference.

     Posted by srjenkins at 07/09/2009 @ 1:59pm

181. Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 1:58pm

     You call a man evil, then complain when he points to all the good he has done in the world. Odd that.

     Posted by srjenkins at 07/09/2009 @ 2:00pm

182. If the Libral Democrats are so sure of the quality of there Health Care Reform Bill and that government controled health care insurance is so great. Then maybe they should amend the bill to state that all goverment officials including members of Congress and the Senate along with all the other government employees shoul be covered by the so called great medical care insurance. Then they would be able to cancel the free medical care that top government officials get and delete the insurance coverage we the taxpayers are subsidizing for all those other federal employees get.

     Posted by RichBalt at 07/09/2009 @ 2:02pm

183. It is usually, for the most part false and self serving agggrandizing.

     By your very words you seem to be self serving and insincere.

     I have been fortunate to know people who care about others. And all of them do not flaunt it as an accolade.

     Strangely, you do.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 1:58pm

     If I came here and self servingly just offered up what I have done, you would indeed have solid grounds for your accusations. but the only time I bring them up is when people like yourself accuse me of being just the opposite of who and how I've lived life.

     And I've always pointed out that 1) I could do more, and 2) that many others have done as much and more. I don't seek accolades or credit. As I've stated before, everything I've done is merely reflective of Christ's love working through me and not of myself. I take no credit for these things, because as a Christian, all credit and honor goes to G-d, not me.

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 2:05pm

184. You're Editorial expertise in revealing the odious nature of my comments will be greatly appreciated.

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 12:34pm

     perhaps the road to peace you so desire is not the same path you have chosen, for we can see that the results have been less than beneficial for humans.

     but you're cool by me larry. nobody's perfect. even god. how else can you explain ticks?

     ¡long live free speech!

     even if no one listens.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 2:08pm

185. "...everything I've done is merely reflective of Christ's love working through me..."

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 2:05pm

     Was it working through you when you were cussing Wolfgang1 out?

     Still waiting for your clarification.

     Posted by Benchrest at 07/09/2009 @ 2:10pm

186. Good afternoon to all. I must retire. For sleep. Thanks for all your posts. Goodnight.

     Posted by chaoszen at 07/09/2009 @ 2:14pm

187. As I've stated before, everything I've done is merely reflective of Christ's love working through me and not of myself.

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 2:05pm

     perhaps the road to peace you so desire is not the same path you have chosen, for we can see that the results have been less than beneficial for humans.

     written by me before i had seen larry's 2:05

     hmmmm.

     that's odd. oh well. hey larry, perhaps you haven't quite found god's pathway.

     i'm not blaming christ. no way. but everything we perceive is filtered through all sorts of sociological lenses, and perhaps, you may be missing god's idea.

     you've studied the trees so much that the forest has become a distant memory.

     maybe you should become a christobuddhist for a while.

     or stop eating meat. that sure helped me.

     god bless you, brotherly.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 2:23pm

188. Then there's frosty zoom, chaoszen, fram, and nathantankus all ruining this thread with a deluge of pointless backbiting back-and-forth drivel that says absolutely nothing regarding the subject here.

     Posted by dajson at 07/09/2009 @ 1:16pm

     well, i think this particular thread may have been pushed in a certain direction by one certain post.....

     as to health care, well, i've got few complaints. could be better, but the best health care starts with your mouth.

     you are constructed from your food.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 2:27pm

189. Then there's frosty zoom, chaoszen, fram, and nathantankus all ruining this thread with a deluge of pointless backbiting back-and-forth drivel that says absolutely nothing regarding the subject here.

     Posted by dajson at 07/09/2009 @ 1:16pm

     well, maybe that's because we've talked about it quatlooilion times and nothing has happened..

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 2:38pm

190. Gracious, lots of reactionary diatribe here. Wouldn't doubt the current profit-hoarders who barrage the "empty" mind of Baccus/Grassley Committee with daily harangues all meant to scare and frighten the power brokers, that "the gov't is always wrong," "Vote for _US_ or our lovely campaign contributions will end."

     Would that there were reeducation camps to help you learn to have a heart, instead of constantly being aroused in the amydigula (seat of emotions), fear posing is a common symptom of those who consume too much coffee,too - too much cortisol which coffee creates leads to lots of stress-reactions sans integral heartfelt 'e pluribus unum.'

     By the way, Corporations have NO right to do whatever they damn well please and expect the rest of the working people of this nation to pay for their profligacy.

     NOT: "Get a life!" but "Grow a conscience!" Its not too late.

     NO civilization has ever survived an elite hostile take-over of national resources. Those that share most equably survive longer.

     Wake up!

     Gratitude, Katrina!

     Ryokan

     Posted by RYOKAN at 07/09/2009 @ 2:49pm

191. Was it working through you when you were cussing Wolfgang1 out?

     Still waiting for your clarification.

     Posted by Benchrest at 07/09/2009 @ 2:10pm

     ????? I don't swear so I don't know what you're referring to.

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 2:52pm

192. or stop eating meat. that sure helped me.

     god bless you, brotherly.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 2:23pm

     I don't eat meat very often FZ. Mostly special occasions.

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 2:54pm

193. I don't swear so I don't know what you're referring to.

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 2:52pm

     LOL!

     You SURE?

     Are you, or are you not, lvliberty1?

     Posted by Benchrest at 07/09/2009 @ 2:56pm

194. Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 6:29pm

     Barry, I have earned my own way since the late sixties, as a freelance consultant, later encorporated, and later still investing, and share none of your obvious self pity. I did what I did because I wanted to and could. Liberals and conservatives had nothing to do with it.

     Don't know where you get your attitude, but you really should try a little introspectation, and about "ugly, America hating wife" you should mind your language too.

     Charlie M.

     Posted by cmsandia at 07/09/2009 @ 2:58pm

195. Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 2:54pm

     Can I have you and Frosty's ration?

     Posted by Mask at 07/09/2009 @ 3:21pm

196. Can I have you and Frosty's ration?

     Posted by Mask at 07/09/2009 @ 3:21pm

     Sure

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 3:52pm

197. All the polarizing rhetoric above makes it so much harder to fully understand with an open heart and mind, the potential damage to our nation IF single-payer is not enacted.

     Rereading Barbara Tuchman's _March of Folly, I came across these lines which seem so familiar in our body politic:

     "...their own kind of folly, in the form of absorption in shortsighted power struggles and perverse neglect of...real needs became endemic, like a torch passed on...."

     Power posturing, posing behind a veil of name-calling, uninformed categorization of those who seem on another improvised "side vs.side" attitudes have brought many empires down.

     Posted by RYOKAN at 07/09/2009 @ 4:23pm

198. Too bad everyone is reacting to the troll barry25 , it's so much better to just ignore him.

     Single payer should NEVER have been taken off the table.

     You have no bargaining position if your ONLY position is public option plan, which Baucus wants to dilute down to nothing.

     Everyone should be calling/emailing their rep's and senators. Just do something for god's sake.

     Healthcare lobbyists spending 1.4 million a day - and to who ? This certainly buys a lot of protection huh.

     I've been emailing and calling my senators daily - at least, and signing petitions for any organization that wants to protect Americans and healthcare reform.

     Posted by timenotonmyside at 07/09/2009 @ 5:26pm

199. Can I have you and Frosty's ration?

     Posted by Mask at 07/09/2009 @ 3:21pm

     you want larry?

     heheh

     nmmmmmmm,

     factory food:

     http://cruelty-free.org/environment/wp- content/uploads/2009/04/factory_farm.jpg

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 5:49pm

200. Posted by frosty zoom at 07/09/2009 @ 5:49pm

     Naw....Larry's too stringy and tough. And you're all gristle and lean meat from a "healthy diet".

     Now SJ or HAPP or RIO, corn-fed with lots of marbling....that's good eatin'!

     heheh

     Posted by Mask at 07/09/2009 @ 6:56pm

201. Posted by barry25 at 07/08/2009 @ 5:38pm |

     "socialism/communism has consistently failed throughout history!"

     I'll leave it to you to break that to the Chinese.

     "Another history lesson: for the first time in HISTORY, less that 50% of the american people pay income tax!"

     And 58.5% will spend at least one year below the poverty line, yet they still keep removing your trash, cleaning your toilets, making your hamburgers, and all without removing your head. Good on them.

     "If you don't see the direction this country is going, based on that little stat I just shared with you, then you are a sheeple!"

     If you think that stat is meaningful when 1% of the population takes home 20% of the money, you're a frakking moron.

     "More and More losers are living off of the winners!"

     Yes, and there names are AIG, Citigroup,...

     "These losers, who overwhelmingly voted for the racist himself, Obama, are also reproducing at a very high rate, and their offspring are being indoctrinated into this loser-liberal, 'I'm owed everything' philosophy!"

     But Happy says we're doomed because liberals are less likely to reproduce than conservatives (you know, the ones who eschew birth control and engage in serial divorce).

     Posted by snowball777 at 07/09/2009 @ 7:14pm

202. Posted by timenotonmyside at 07/09/2009 @ 5:26pm |

     Get a few hundred friends together (preferably TB carriers) and go cough on some private health insurance lobbyists.

     Emails are very easy to delete...think green paper, my friend.

     70% of the country may want healthcare reform, but how many are willing to chip in $10-$100 to see it happen?

     210M * $10-$100 == $2.1B - $21B

     If you want to attract the attention of a whore like Baucus, you've got to 'show him the money'.

     Posted by snowball777 at 07/09/2009 @ 7:25pm

203. Liberals are soooo easy to tweak.

     Posted by fram at 07/09/2009 @ 12:03pm

     Don't flatter yourself.

     Is it a big accomplishment to get people disagreeing with you on a site blog The Nation?

     Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/09/2009 @ 9:01pm

204. ...a blog called The Nation?

     Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/09/2009 @ 9:02pm

205. Charlie M.

     Posted by cmsandia at 07/09/2009 @ 2:58pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     No, no. ONLY BARRY has ever worked for a living. ONLY BARRY has ever paid taxes for shit he doesn't want, like stupid, dumbassed avoidable wars.

     ONLY BARRY CARES.

     (sorry for the sarcasm)

     Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/09/2009 @ 9:04pm

206. "...everything I've done is merely reflective of Christ's love working through me..."

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/09/2009 @ 2:05pm

     Whew, there's never any shortage of pomposity (or hypocrisy).

     Posted by jarshadow at 07/09/2009 @ 10:49pm

207. Yo, keyboard punchers and mouse twitters,

     stop being an ugly bunch of shitters

     get your fat S off your comfy chair,

     go fight in the streets most everywhere

     Posted by chinpoko at 07/09/2009 @ 11:31pm

208. Posted by willhort at 07/09/2009 @ 08:48am | ignore this person | warn this person

     Always real cute until you talk about the tax costs to the individuals and businesses in proportion to their income. So start naming these idyllic countries?

     Posted by BigPasture at 07/10/2009 @ 12:25am

209. "The notion of televising negotiations behind a health care revamp was so central to Obama's campaign promises of change and openness, however, that it became part of his stump speech as he traveled the country in 2007 and 2008.

     He'd describe how televised deliberations would take place around a big table, with seats filled by doctors, nurses, insurers and other interested parties. As president, he'd joke, he'd get the biggest chair.

     "Not negotiating behind closed doors, but bringing all parties together and broadcasting those negotiations on C-SPAN," Obama explained in a Democratic debate in Los Angeles in January 2008, in language similar to many of his campaign stops.

     However, the two biggest deals so far -- industry agreements to cut drug and hospital costs -- were reached in secret."

     http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/71584.html

     Posted by frosty zoom at 07/10/2009 @ 12:29am

210. go fight in the streets most everywhere Posted by chinpoko at 07/09/2009 @ 11:31pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     this sounds a lot better than it is.

     Posted by emile duBois at 07/10/2009 @ 08:31am

211. bernie for president!! hold that, vermont needs him here

     Posted by Partrick at 07/10/2009 @ 08:54am

212. "Another history lesson: for the first time in HISTORY, less that 50% of the american people pay income tax!"

     This should be an indicator that there is an extreme disparity in the distribution of income. IF more people made more money at there present jobs then they would be paying more taxes but as more money goes to the rich and less to the working class then you have the situation you say you dislike.

     Posted by SteppingRazor at 07/10/2009 @ 1:36pm

213. The root of this Me/"Selfishness is a Virtue" philosophy which is destroying our nation is the insane philosophy/religion of Ayn Rand.

     Posted by SteppingRazor at 07/10/2009 @ 1:39pm

214. Katrina wants to put the federal govt in charge of the nation's medical care.

     Fine, but first consider:

     It has for over a century had the responsibility of providing medical care to our native people. Does anyone think it has mastered that task?

     The federal government has for 80 years been responsibility of providing adequate health care to veterans. Everyone knows it has failed there across 80 years.

     It has been running Medicare and Medicaid since 1965. The enormous costs to the taxpayer are uncontrolled. The Medicare premiums for seniors, which started out reasonably, have become huge. Medicaid patients are either rejected, corralled in huge waiting rooms or herded off to third rate facilities.

     In short shouldn't Washington have to demonstrate that it can run those programs adequately before being entrusted with the entire US health system?

     Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 07/10/2009 @ 1:43pm

215. The federal government has for 80 years been responsibility of providing adequate health care to veterans. Everyone knows it has failed there across 80 years. ----Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 07/10/2009 @ 1:43pm

     What does the polling show on veteran's support for the VA system?

     Honestly...I am curious.

     Posted by Mask at 07/10/2009 @ 1:46pm

216. The federal government has for 80 years been responsibility of providing adequate health care to veterans. Everyone knows it has failed there across 80 years. ----Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 07/10/2009 @ 1:43pm

     What does the polling show on veteran's support for the VA system?

     Honestly...I am curious.

     Posted by Mask at 07/10/2009 @ 1:46pm

     I really have to disagree with Hugo. I haven't used the VA healthcare system in the past 8 years, but when I did use it, I always received quality care. I had need of it for my service related injuries after my discharge and I used them rather than the county service after my motorcycle accident in 1972. I never had a complaint about the way I was treated.

     Posted by antisocialist at 07/10/2009 @ 2:53pm

217. It's morally wrong to leave 100 million Americans un or underinsured, 1 illness away from financial ruin. And it's wrong to burden small business with the outrageous insurance costs also -- found a cool site; Balkingpoints ; incredible satellite view of earth

     Posted by reg373 at 07/10/2009 @ 5:11pm

218. There was a Harvard School of Public Health poll last year which found that 64 percent of military families believe VA hospitals were not offering high quality care and that "hundreds of thousands of veterans wait more than a month to see a VA doctor".

     Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 07/10/2009 @ 6:52pm

219. From a doctor's perspective, VA hospitals are great. There is little oversight, and plenty of unqualified people take the gig to get experience.

     Please feel free to read in any implications for patient care you so choose.

     Posted by srjenkins at 07/10/2009 @ 11:36pm

220. Posted by antisocialist at 07/10/2009 @ 2:53pm |

     I think you've puzzled out the real difference here...timing.

     The VHA that helped Anti out with his war (and motorcycle) wounds has not been the same since the conservatives gutted same in the 80s.

     http://www.nytimes.com/1985/12/27/ us/us-health-care-for-veterans-cut-in-budget-draft.html?&pagewanted=2

     But hey, at least he grandstanded by making a cabinet level position that could fall on a sword later.

     Statistics about homeless Vets:

     23% of homeless population 33% of male homeless population 67% served three or more years 33% stationed in war zone 25% have used VA Homeless Services 85% completed high school/GED 89% received Honorable Discharge

     Posted by snowball777 at 07/11/2009 @ 11:04am

221. This appeared in Ovi magazine:

     "..., if you want true change and see results, and at the same time expose the true imposters entrusted with your well being, then begin by petitioning to have all of Congress"s health care benefits cut off. In fact let"s include all federal government elected and appointed politicians, even judges.

     Let"s say, it"s a cost cutting measure. After all, aren"t companies constantly trimming employees" benefits to save money for their executives" bonuses? And if the President can force GM to eliminate waste, and trim their budgets, then allow him to do the same with Congress --- they who rant about the wicked evils of single-payer programs, they who "appropriate" the coffers of our Treasury to pay for their own healthcare, they who are covered by a "single payer program", funded by our taxes --- the United States Government.

     And even though most Congressmen and Senators are millionaires anyway and can afford to pick up other healthcare venues, perhaps this action may bring home the realization that life in the halls of lobbyism is not quite as real as that in the halls of social injustice.

     Make no mistake, this action may be the only way to force Congress into changing the moral character of this pseudo "debate" and erase their vile brand of opposition to the true greatness of this country. That is the REAL SOLUTION to this problem. Throw Congress into the world of the uninsured --- perhaps that sting will make them act."

     Posted by onekoleso at 07/12/2009 @ 11:01am

222. I strongly support single payer and have for over 60 years. It is long overdue. And YES! it is a right and not a privilege in a democratic society. It is shameful our leaders are wedded to the insurance industry and to big pharma and the others who profit by denying care and turn their backs on the voters. I will not vote for anyone who fails to support single payer.

     Posted by selmagoldberg at 07/12/2009 @ 1:12pm

223. Take 2 states;

     CA & NY

     Confiscate everyone's assets that exceed 1/2 million.

     WaLa,

     Universal Healthcare is funded.

     Reverse carpetbagging.

     Obama will be so proud of your sacrifice.

     Posted by bleedingheart at 07/12/2009 @ 1:58pm

224. 'Yo, keyboard punchers and mouse twitters,

     stop being an ugly bunch of shitters

     get your fat S off your comfy chair,

     go fight in the streets most everywhere' -- chinpoko

     'Can't we all just get along?' -- Rodney King

     Posted by HonestLiberal at 07/13/2009 @ 12:40pm

225. Thank you for the myriad comments posted here. What we need is serious, definitive planning and implementation procedures and protocols for single payor universal health care from birth to death for Americans. The nay sayers want us to gripe and not carefully plan. They came up with Harry and Louise and it worked. We need to present a plan. Simple: single point of entry, collaborative needs assessment and treatment planning and measurable outcomes follow-up. Not rocket science. I volunteer my time and energy to help with this. I am a retired psychologist who was a QI "maven" in health care for over 40 years. This can be done. How do I get involved? None of this placating the insurance companies: insurance is for housing, fires, automobiles. Care is for people. Thanks. MJC

     Posted by condia at 07/14/2009 @ 10:49am