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RedditInside the Rayburn Building on Capitol Hill Tuesday, there were two distinctly different hearings on Pakistan. One featured the Obama administration's special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, and it was packed with mainstream media--standing room only. At the conclusion of his testimony--just one floor up from that hearing--the Congressional Progressive Caucus held its fifth forum on Afghanistan, this one focusing on the administration's Pakistan strategy and how it impacts both countries.
Holbrooke faced very few tough questions--not even on drone strikes. Rep. Lynn Woolsey did press Holbrooke on the fact that 90 percent of the administration's war supplemental goes towards military expenses, while the counterinsurgency strategy calls for a ratio of 80 percent political and 20 percent military.
"Where is the place for smart power, investing in humanitarian needs and infrastructure, economy, food, so that we can shore up the people?" Woolsey asked.
"Smart power," Holbrooke said, "... is exactly what this bill is trying to do."
"Well, Mr. Ambassador," Woolsey said, "if the ratio to smart investment is 1 to 10, with 10 being military investment, I don't know how we get [there]."
"I don't think it is 1 to 10 anymore," Holbrooke said. "It was... But this bill is one of a number of bills now in the Congress to correct that."
The simple fact is that the funding ratio will not approach what the counterinsurgency strategy calls for, and one senior congressional staffer told me this: "The bottom line is that [the bill] is the same funding, for the same military efforts, it's just coming from a State Department account instead of DoD."
The most outspoken critic of the escalation in Afghanistan and Pakistan was Republican Congressman Ron Paul. "It just seems like we never learn from our past mistakes," he said. "It's going to cost a lot of money and it's going to cost a lot of lives.... And the odds of it working are so slim.... How do you win the hearts and minds of these people if we're seen as invaders and occupiers... I'd like to know where you stand on the killing of innocent Pashtuns...?
Holbrooke didn't answer Paul's question -- which was the ONLY question of the hearing that (sort of) challenged the use of drones and airstrikes.
Instead, he said, "Afghanistan-Pakistan is not Iraq.... The reason we are in this area is because the people in this area attacked our country on September 11th, 2001 and have stated flatly they intend to do it again."
Democratic Rep. David Scott asked, "What is our end game and our exit strategy ?"
"... There's a difference between an exit strategy and an exit timetable, and we have defined our strategy but we certainly can't put a timetable on it," failing yet again to articulate an exit strategy.
It would have been smart if Holbrooke or even one person from the mainstream media feeding frenzy had ventured upstairs to the Progressive Caucus forum. There, the former High Commissioner of Pakistan to Great Britain, Ambassador Akbar Ahmed, offered this wise advice once given by a British General who was a veteran of wars in the frontier area: "When you invade Pashtun areas, have a good exit strategy with you, because sooner or later you are going to need it." Having also served as the head of two civil agencies in the tribal areas and completed a doctoral thesis there, Ahmed has a kind of expertise and intimacy with the issues that Holbrooke certainly doesn't.
Ahmed's frustration with both the Pakistan government and the US foreign policy was palpable. He said Obama was "absolutely right" when he called Pakistan's Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) on the Afghan border "the most dangerous place in the world today," and his frustration stems from what he sees as a completely wrong strategy in dealing with it.
Ahmed said the tribes in the area have a sense of history, pride and dignity and live on both sides of the border -- "if something happens on this side of the border, it impacts on that side" -- and they are connected by kinship, politics and religion. "A successful strategy to deal with them [is] not -- I repeat, not -- to take them head on... sending troops, throwing grenades and missiles, or sending in airplanes and tanks..... The best strategy for them [is] to work through tribal organizations, tribal networks, tribal leadership.... [It requires] both strength and skill -- strength alone will not do. And we see the consequences of just a military strategy...."
Indeed the approach over the past decade has been a military one. The result, Ahmed said, is that authority in the region once shared by "three pillars" -- central government, tribal authority, and religious clerics -- is now left with only the clerics who have "morphed into Taliban."
Ahmed, said that Pakistan needs to begin by reestablishing the authority of the state and restoring tribal authority. He said Pakistan -- with the encouragement of the US -- is attempting to do that through military means alone rather than through "what remains of the tribal leadership and civil structure." He said if the state worked through the tribal structure there would be "resistance to the Taliban, not from up 30,000 feet in the sky, right on the ground...."
Another key to success in the border region that Holbrooke didn't touch on is reformation of the madrassas. Ahmed said much of US aid should be earmarked for education, and half of that to the madrassas. Madrassas are the network of education for the tribes, and if they are closed down by the government there will be "hundreds of thousands of young men ready to fight a religious war against the Americans." Reform through aid, Pakistanis and Pakistani Americans serving as advisors and teachers, new syllabi and teacher training -- these are the kinds of steps that would bring change and long-term security.
"After 8 years of giving Pakistan money -- $17 billion or $15 billion since 9/11 -- what have you achieved?" Ahmed asked. "Had you put 10 percent of this into madrassas by now young men... who are [now] prepared to fight you... would be wanting jobs and to be part of the process.... And they would want to resist those who want to disrupt their society.... The one thing every Pakistani wants for his kids is education.... Within one to three years you will turn that entire region around. The greatest enemies of the Americans will become their allies." (Another witness -- Azhar Hussain, of the International Center for Religion and Diplomacy -- pointed out that less than 1 percent of US aid went to the FATA region in the past 6 years.)
Finally, Ahmed spoke plainly of the drone strikes: "My advice is this... please, please don't.... The drone strikes... are very counterproductive." He said the former top advisor to General Petraeus -- David Kilcullen ">-- has it right. Hussain noted that there have been 61 drone attacks "in the last few years", and only 10 have hit the intended target. The result? 798 civilians killed and "less than about 50 insurgents."
"That is a large number of innocent people getting killed by drone attacks," he said. "That creates an incredible amount of incitement and rage in the Pakistani community."
As to the issue of escalation in Afghanistan, Ahmed had this to say:
"When there are more American deaths -- alas, because these young men and women are out there serving their nation, they've got families -- when these deaths take place, what message is it sending to the tribesman...? The message [is]: 'Guys, continue this, rally around, because we are now on a winning streak.' And what message is it sending to Taliban...? It's 60 miles now from Islamabad! It's saying, 'Guys, continue doing this. The Americans can't last....' If that mood takes hold -- don't you see how difficult it becomes for us -- talking about recreating structures? There's no hope. You might as well hand it over to the Taliban."
This expertise and candor--from Pakistanis who have devoted their lives to a region we are further destabilizing with this escalation -- was sorely lacking at the Holbrooke hearing. Tell Congress to demand what Holbrooke didn't give them--an exit strategy .
With reporting from Capitol Hill by Nation Reporter/Researcher Greg Kaufmann
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Katrina vanden Heuvel
Thoughts on politics, current affairs, riffs and reflections on what’s in the news and what’s not--but should be.
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well obama seems to be doing a good job in asuring the pakistanis that india is not about to attack them, which has allowed the pakis to pull troops off the india border to deal with the armed insurgency in their interior.
that is a good deal. not that civil war is a good deal, but the fact that the pakistani gov is finally figuring out india is not its biggest concern is comforting.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/08/2009 @ 08:11am
I'm sorry, but given a choice of experts on foreigh policy between...
Richard Holbrooke
and Lynn Woolsey and Ron Paul.
I think I'll try experience and a proven track record over mere ideology.
Posted by Mask at 05/08/2009 @ 08:13am
There's no exit strategy because there are no exit plans.
The US is in Af/Pak for as long as it takes to build the pipeline & then guard it, until the energy source is tapped out. IOW, many decades. As the Pentagon made clear when the US invaded Afghanistan, this is The Long War.
Empire, US-style.
Posted by sloper at 05/08/2009 @ 08:24am
Posted by Mask at 05/08/2009 @ 08:13am | ignore this person | warn this person
i'm just feeling that a lot of the discussion of this topic is weighed down with frustration at the mistakes of the previous administration.
between the 28 percenters who never oppose any military adventure (unless it is initiated by the dems) and the gag reflex anti-war crowd who never support anything that might result in anyone ever getting hurt, the current discussion approaches meaninglessness.
i guess the left's playful infatuation with ron paul is a hat tipping to his liberal social views and anti-war stance, but despite his appeal to marginally less ideologized college anarcho-libertarians, the sum total of his stated belief system should be considered in any attempts to lionize the guy or assume him to be a sage expert on foriegn policy.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/08/2009 @ 08:36am
Posted by snowball666 at 05/08/2009 @ 08:22am
More credence than Woolsey or Paul.
But he's also not privy to all the pertinent national security information and I would doubt that Ahmed has visited the specific region recently.
Again, I'm willing to give Holbrooke the benefit of the doubt...for a while.
Posted by Mask at 05/08/2009 @ 08:40am
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/08/2009 @ 08:36am
It's a simplistic theory, I admit, but for some time (especially since Obama was inaugurated), I've come to the conclustion that...
if the Hard Left is "disappointed"...and the Hard Right is angry and frothing at the mouth....we're probably on the right track.
Posted by Mask at 05/08/2009 @ 08:42am
More credence than Woolsey or Paul.
But he's also not privy to all the pertinent national security information and I would doubt that Ahmed has visited the specific region recently.
Again, I'm willing to give Holbrooke the benefit of the doubt...for a while.
Posted by Mask at 05/08/2009 @ 08:40am
Agreed! this is twice in the same month. Surely hell has frozen over and pigs have wings.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/08/2009 @ 08:58am
Posted by Mask at 05/08/2009 @ 08:42am | ignore this person | warn this person
finding the center.
yeah, i've ascribed to a similar way of seeing things, especially in the fuzzy sciences. i tend to look at the sum total of educated and semi-educated opinion, chew on it, and align somewhere in between the extremes...usually.
four years ago that made me a flaming liberal, but now that things have changed i guess i'm more or less in the middle again...
but yeah -its an oversimplification...
hey - by the way we are being watched, mask...see next post...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/08/2009 @ 09:01am
MASK
what follows is the result of a recent self googling (oooooh, satisfying...)
"Ibbleblibble's comments present more than a kernel of truth with respect to ... In this register, Ibbleblibble mocks CPT for spinning the claim that US left ..."
and...
"Ibbleblibble's comments present more than a kernel of truth with respect to the ... in evidence: a self-conscious ‘‘wet blanket'' moment from Mask (in ..."
LMAO - i'm mocking and yer wet blanketting!!!! HAR HAR HAR
here's the url - trying to get access to the article...
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a777586287~db=all
and here's the abstract...
ONLINE "LOONEY TUNES" An analysis of reader-composed comment threads in The Nation
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/08/2009 @ 09:07am
ONLINE "LOONEY TUNES" An analysis of reader-composed comment threads in The Nation
"This investigation orients to sociological propaganda (Ellul, 1965) and its implications in a new media environment. In particular, the investigation concerns seven reader-composed threads from the online version of the left-wing US publication, The Nation. The seven threads encompassed 931 posted comments in which posters clashed over contemporary US politics. I posit that the threads' discourse reproduces sociological propaganda; specifically, the "American Way of Life" as channelled through a technological substrate that is assumed to be an enabler of vigorous democratic discourse. Alongside sociological propaganda, I unpack the ideology that is manifested in the topoi and uses of evidence that posters present (van Dijk, nd). Despite often heated confrontations between posters of the left and right, consensus was often part of the threads' endgame in which the "American Way of Life" was affirmed laterally between citizens. This conclusion is also born out by the ensemble of posters' dismissiveness toward a conspiracy poster who is not as easily squared with the prevailing sociological propaganda. On the basis of this sample, I conclude with an evaluation of new media's potential and limitations with respect to enhanced democracy."
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/08/2009 @ 09:08am
Posted by antisocialist at 05/08/2009 @ 08:58am
It won't last, Larry. Sooner or later, Holbrooke will "give in to the terrorists" and ...NEGOTIATE!!!!!...and you'll proclaim doom.
Posted by Mask at 05/08/2009 @ 09:18am
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/08/2009 @ 09:07am
You want some fun? Here's a "Key Search Word" for Google that will PLUNGE (heheh) you into a RESE'ian world of unimaginable paranoia (or fun, depending on your perspective...again, heheh)....
"gangstalking"!
Posted by Mask at 05/08/2009 @ 09:20am
"gangstalking"!
Posted by Mask at 05/08/2009 @ 09:20am | ignore this person | warn this person
oh man - that looks like fun!!!
beats the heck out of "beanstalking"...
whatever that is...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/08/2009 @ 09:27am
"Despite often heated confrontations between posters of the left and right, consensus was often part of the threads' endgame in which the "American Way of Life" was affirmed laterally between citizens. This conclusion is also born out by the ensemble of posters' dismissiveness toward a conspiracy poster who is not as easily squared with the prevailing sociological propaganda."
LMAO!!!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/08/2009 @ 09:29am
It's good to be neutral on some `hot' issues of the world.....removes "heated confrontations" as an outcome.
It's The Obama Af/Pak Show....how many seasons will it run? What kinda of Nielsen Ratings will they garner? What Awards will come out of them? How many generals' stars will be awarded? How many Medals of Honor?
Lastly, have you sold stocks recently?
Posted by Happy at 05/08/2009 @ 09:50am
Posted by snowball666 at 05/08/2009 @ 09:44am | ignore this person | warn this person
yer playing with fire here, snowball - you could get mocked or wet blanketted at any moment...
at least the likelihood of a random drive by teabaggin' is pretty minimal...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/08/2009 @ 09:53am
Posted by snowball666 at 05/08/2009 @ 09:58am | ignore this person | warn this person
especially if the torturer is a masochist and the torturee is a sadist...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/08/2009 @ 10:01am
Not my DNDN, that's for sure. $19.23 WTF?! ;)
Posted by snowball666 at 05/08/2009 @ 10:03am
I Sold some when it first hit $20....hang in there......maybe Stop Loss and/or Good-till-Cancelled-Buy at some low, low cost?
Today, is the day an offer for a townhouse goes out...for my older son's first real estate offer...and he doesn't even know it....heheheh!
Love the thrills of negotiations forthcoming!
Posted by Happy at 05/08/2009 @ 10:17am
Hahaha! Obama losin' it. Taliban think he's a punk! The Pakies only bomb the villages because they are scared to death. Where is the outcry over civilian deaths in the media. Hmmmm. No daily tally of dead soldiers on CNN now from Iraq or "AFGHAST"? Oh yes, its not an election cycle. Katrina you must think our boys must live in the huts with these people. Give more money when so many "disenfranchised' people dont have jobs here? What you gonna do? "I will get Bin Laden" isnt that what "the One" said? BS! Meltdown on all fronts. Look at today's job losses...how many did he say he was gonna "save"? Tore up auto company bond holders contracts. Where is your "rule of law" now? Gutting U.S. corps through tax reform. He hasnent seen the world since he was 7 yrs old. And the Chinese have voted with their Yuan...aint buying our debt. What a bunch of hooy!! Look at the yield curve. We cant afford your fantasy vision of the world unless your can afford to pay for it yourself.
Posted by mike63 at 05/08/2009 @ 10:19am
KVH is a superb journalist. Here she's only implying that Holbrook should be able to respond to this vacuum, the great sucking sound between Obama's soaring rhetoric' of true diplomacy and respect for other countries on the left hand and the long history of neocon foreign policy arrogance and abuse on the right. We do have to compensate with words at minimum. Anyone blind to this clearly hasn't left the USA zone too many times in the last ten years. And Maaaash, stopping in the seed and feed across the county line doesn't count.
Posted by winyahn at 05/08/2009 @ 10:27am
Posted by Happy at 05/08/2009 @ 10:17am
Thurston HAPPY III still proclaming himself the "Wolf of Wall Street"?
(except for a "minor hiccup" last summer, where he nearly lost it all?...heheh)
Posted by Mask at 05/08/2009 @ 10:40am
Posted by mike63 at 05/08/2009 @ 10:19am
A perfect example of the clear thinking and coherence of the Right these days.
If mike would only start crying, he could get Glenn Beck's job!
LOL
Posted by Mask at 05/08/2009 @ 10:42am
THE most effective weapon terrorists have found to wield against us isn't the headline-grabbing suicide bomber or even the deadly roadside bomb, the IED.
Such weapons can harm us, but they can't stop us. Terror's super-weapon is the lie.
Lying about civilian casualties is the one sure way to impede or even halt US (or Israeli) operations, to force such tight restrictions on our troops that they can't win.
The casualty con's so effective as both propaganda and tactic that terrorists everywhere have adopted the technique. It's been so successful that our enemies long ago transitioned to the next phase: creating civilian casualties and blaming us.
It works. The media love the charge. Our troops and pilots are always guilty -- even if proven innocent. Because so many on the left want us to be guilty.
Few journalists bother to investigate. If the Taliban, al Qaeda, Hezbollah or Hamas says it, it must be so. In Media Wonderland, terrorists never lie. Now every successful strike on a Taliban target generates the instant claim that the dead were all civilians.
And it isn't just the media who back the Taliban. The Obama administration -- a case study in instant foreign-policy ineptitude -- signs up, too.
This week, Taliban terrorists publicly beheaded three civilians in Afghanistan's Farah province, then herded women and children into compounds from which they fought government forces and US advisers.
With a vicious ground battle under way, the Talibs knew attack aircraft would appear. According to military sources, they set up the target. And, just in case, they slaughtered those women and children with grenades before any aircraft appeared. The entire massacre was a planned media event.
Posted by comancheamerican at 05/08/2009 @ 12:05pm
And who gets blamed? Not the Taliban. Before the smoke cleared, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton was apologizing. (Apologizing is one thing this administration does with real enthusiasm.)
Our SecState played right into the Taliban's hands. It was instinctive on her part. Clinton and her new Cabinet peers know that our military's evil. No need to say a single word about the Taliban's atrocity."
Keep playing right into the hands of our enemies and supporting THEM KVH like the good marxist!
Posted by comancheamerican at 05/08/2009 @ 12:06pm
The message from the US to those peoples on both sides of the Afghan/Pakistan border (yes its mountainous) seems to be-Rise up & fight the Taliban around you or a drone or missile might come down upon you.
Al queda (are they still in Waziristan?) ops must be sitting in their bunkers envisioning sending Taliban into airports in the West. Watch for turbaned, switch wielding tribesman lashing out at short skirted, unveiled women, grabbing away & pouring lounge beers into trash cans.
Seriously, what is the extent of our efforts to smoke out those ops in tribal areas? Forget the Taliban, go for the foreign fighters, you know, the ones with addresses in prosperous places on their passports. They are the ones with the "connections". Cash, entry visas, airline tickets, flying school acceptance paper, etc.
Of course, in the final analysis, enhanced domestic screening is the best defense, but hey we've now got the "global economy..."
Posted by Sorelish at 05/08/2009 @ 12:15pm
We need to get out of Iraq, out of Afghanistan and quit muking things up in Pakistan. There is no reason to have troops in that or any other part of the world.
Let the countries in that region of the world work out their problems on their own. Nothing can be gained by interfering in regional poltics with a military that knows nothing more than killing, bombing and generally pissing off everyone in the region.. Aid? OK. Helping them build some infrastructure? OK.
Enriching the Military Industrial Complex and spreading Imperialism around the World? NO!
The world does not need our meddling and interference in their affairs. If we are attacked by someone and our nation is in peril, then we should respond. Otherwise lets get the hell out of everybody elses business!
This is not rocket science people..
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 12:36pm
And by "Attacked by Someone" I mean another sovereign country. Not a cadre of religious fanatics. That is a criminal issue that should be addressed by international police forces and the courts. You can't wage any kind of moral war on a "Tactic" like terror. That is madness.
We have enough religious fantics in our own country to keep us busy anyway..
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 12:46pm
Posted by snowball666 at 05/08/2009 @ 11:26am
Think we'll EVER get the full story on how much HAPP lost last year? I KNOW he had to be a James "Dow 36,000" Glassman fan and kept buying right upto the end just KNOWING that "there's no way Dubya would allow the Market to tank!!!!"
LOL
Posted by Mask at 05/08/2009 @ 12:53pm
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 12:36pm
"international police forces"
...and by international police forces, you mean?
Just sayin'.
Posted by JohnnyRico at 05/08/2009 @ 1:05pm
And if everbody is so damn worried about a "Terorist Attack" killing you or your own (which is about as likely as a meteor falling on your head at McDonalds) then I would suggest that you start supporting efforts of people like me in your own country to stop F**KING around in other peoples affairs and mind your own business! That way we don't piss other people off so that they want a piece of us. Simple and Elegant solution.
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 1:08pm
Yes, simple and elegant, except for that part about the "international police forces." And please calm down. You think more clearly that way.
Posted by JohnnyRico at 05/08/2009 @ 1:17pm
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 1:08pm
Agreed. No more lives for oil/gas or any other friggin resource.
Posted by Sorelish at 05/08/2009 @ 1:20pm
...and by international police forces, you mean? Posted by JohnnyRico at 05/08/2009 @ 1:05pm
Like maybe kicking down some bucks towards INTERPOL. Ever heard of them? They can be quite efficient when they are funded properly. Which currently they are not. Wanna know why? Because the American Military has taken it upon themselves to police the world. At an astronomical expense to the American Taxpayer. The military should only be used in time of war. Not for fighting terrorism, which is a crime problem.
INTERPOL on the other hand if they weren't spending so much damn money fighting "drug trafficking" (a useless endeavour as all drugs should be legal) Are well equipped to fight terrorism. They have a Public Safety and Terrorism task force already. But it needs money to operate properly. We need to finace INTERPOL for dealing with terrorist criminals and keep our military in check for use when we need them.
Just my opinion.
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 1:30pm
Posted by Sorelish at 05/08/2009 @ 1:20pm
With the exception of water & we've got plenty of that. We are indeed fortunate. Someday water will be measured in barrels for export.
Posted by Sorelish at 05/08/2009 @ 1:34pm
Posted by JohnnyRico at 05/08/2009 @ 1:17pm
And I do apologize for being a bit hot under the collar. I just get so frustrated. I'm a Buddhist, or at least I try to be. I'm still working on that..
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 1:37pm
Posted by Sorelish at 05/08/2009 @ 1:34pm
The demands for fresh water supplies will far outweigh the need for any other natural resource in the near future. The population of the planet and the need for fresh water has put an unsustainable strain on the Earths ability to provide it. "Water Wars", who would have thought.
More the reason to protect our fresh water supplies from pollution. More the reason to start building desalination plants. With global warming increasing at a rate much faster than expected we will no doubt have ample supplies of sea water to desalinate as the glaciers and ice sheets melt.
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 1:56pm
I worked on a ship in Alaska in the Bering Sea that had it's own desalination plant onboard. The water was OK to drink, but it tasted rather flat and somewhat stale. Maybe that can be improved.
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 2:02pm
Posted by snowball666 at 05/08/2009 @ 1:41pm
Btw, we should be diversifying our potato seed stocks from that available from S. American peasant farmers & standing up to Monsanto & other monopolistic, profiteering, catastrophe courting corporations.
Posted by Sorelish at 05/08/2009 @ 2:06pm
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @2:02pm
Have beautiful water here where I live. Am leaving now to take the MIL out to an early Mother's Day dinner. She lived later in life in desolate places & thinks water should have a TASTE. Desalinated water would suit her just fine. Still a good egg though.
Posted by Sorelish at 05/08/2009 @ 2:20pm
On the other hand the oceans of the world are dying. And if humanity kills the ocean. Then we all die. The ocean is the true mother of all life. And covers about 70% of the planet. But through Acidification that threatens the entire marine ecosystem, overfishing and dumping of toxic materials, the oceans are dying. Acidification occurs because the Ocean absorbs carbon dioxide. The Ocean has reached about the maximum amount of CO2 that it can absorb due to human activities. The CO2 causes the PH of the ocean to go more acidic. When the PH of the Ocean is to acidic, marine life dies. If the Ocean dies, so do we..
On a more cheerful note! Hmmm. Sorry, there really isn't a more cheerful note..
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 2:20pm
Frank Herbert? Posted by snowball666 at 05/08/2009 @ 2:07pm
Yeah! I guess he did think of that. I forgot about the "Dune" series. Sheesh, science fiction turns into science fact. Maybe we should reread those novels for a few hints on stillsuits and the "water of life". We might need it!
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 2:28pm
"INTERPOL. Ever heard of them?"
Of course. And I understand your point. But the reality is that Interpol, the UN, NATO and every other organization on earth was helpless for Kuwait/Gulf War I, Somalia, Bosnia, etc.
It looks like maybe part of the world is catching on, and there is actually progress in terms of "international policing" with the Somali pirate thing and even Afghanistan.
Don't get me wrong. I think we should get out of Afghanistan and Iraq, but I am also under no illusions that these two places will probably collapse into worse cases than the failed states they already are and it won't be long before the world is crying for the US to save it from itself - in the mideast or maybe elsewhere.
Posted by JohnnyRico at 05/08/2009 @ 2:28pm
Someday water will be measured in barrels for export.
Posted by Sorelish at 05/08/2009 @ 1:34pm
someday?
welcome to my world.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/08/2009 @ 2:38pm
Hey! Maybe there is a cheerful note after all. When the human race is extinct, which hopefully we will be soon. Then the Earth Mother will have time to renew and refresh herself after giving birth to the likes of us. And maybe then a new life form will emerge that is a lot more respectful and caring of the planet womb that gave it life.
And then if you believe in reincarnation, perhaps your soul will be given a chance to inhabit this new life form. And then you can continue with your education!
Sounds a bit crazy huh? Hide and Watch.
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 2:41pm
Crap.. Now I did it. I gave up too much of the story. Im a spoiler. Maybe they didn't notice. No way. They always notice.
Now I really have some explaining to do.
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 2:45pm
I'm a Buddhist, or at least I try to be. I'm still working on that..
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 1:37pm | ignore this person | warn this person
same here. i'm a bad bodhisattva. sacriligious and bad at spellin. iconoclastic, volcanic, meat eating and mean.
sarcastic, caustic, lazy, asinine, whiney, self pitying, lecherous, full of shit, an unreliable narrator...
but i am still a buddhist.
fucker...
(LOL)
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/08/2009 @ 3:26pm
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 2:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person
look, zen...
its inexorable. whether we trigger it or not, there IS a ticking time bomb beneath our very feet and above our heads that one day will blow baby blow regardless.
another thing is therefore inexorable - a decision by us as to whether we want to survive or whether we do not. if not, then we should elect anarcho-libertarian theocratists to lead us again and live like there is no tomorrow, like we have been living for a while.
you and me, us weirdo depresio chimps on the perimeter (the ones that see the leopard or alert the rest of the group by their death screams), we see these things and it upsets us because we really see them and we know what they mean, while most of the silly chimps lounge about masturbating each other and squabbling over the scraps and who's the biggest badass...
too much empathy, fucker, too much empathy...
how can we ethical/moral supermen be of any good to the sea of marching morons in which we swim, if we care so much about the pathetic, misguided, nasty, brutish, and not-cute, hungry ghosts we become so cynical and depresio that we can no longer help them...
too much empathy is as deadly as too little.
i personally think yer a good buddhist...
humor is good too.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/08/2009 @ 3:43pm
but i am still a buddhist. Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/08/2009 @ 3:26pm
Welcome to the world of imperfect bodhisattvas.. :)
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 3:49pm
When the Buddha was asked, "Are you God?" He replied "No, the only difference between you and me is that I'm awake and you are asleep."
I think I need a nap..
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 4:01pm
Posted by mike63 at 05/08/2009 @ 10:19am | ignore this person | warn this person
I suggest paragraphs.
Posted by schnellerheinz at 05/08/2009 @ 6:51pm
Posted by comancheamerican at 05/08/2009 @ 12:05pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Too many paragraphs.
Posted by schnellerheinz at 05/08/2009 @ 6:53pm
Agreed. No more lives for oil/gas or any other friggin resource.
Posted by Sorelish at 05/08/2009 @ 1:20pm | ignore this person | warn this person
There you go, push a cart full of manure uphill without wheels! Unbelievable
Posted by comancheamerican at 05/09/2009 @ 12:59am
"its inexorable. whether we trigger it or not, there IS a ticking time bomb beneath our very feet and above our heads that one day will blow baby blow regardless..."
~ibbleblibble at 3:43pm
Perhaps the "ticking time bomb" is the one between our ears?
To be a bit less opaque, it was the human brain that created the bomb. Perhaps, in some sense, the brain is the bomb?
Ironic that creativity is so explosive.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/09/2009 @ 02:02am
Hey...
On that note. A wistful blast from my youthful past....
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTbkU0nYQMI&NR=1
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/09/2009 @ 02:53am
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ35Ihl_o9M&NR=1
Much better quality sound version of --part one of--above.
Good stuff, anyway.... best Priest album hands down I think.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/09/2009 @ 03:05am
The "commercial" hit off the above record:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKSU1W0ZUmQ&feature=related
A vocal smash.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/09/2009 @ 03:16am
One more odd polished gem....awash in the sea....
tinyurl.com/qg6kj9
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/09/2009 @ 05:21am
......global warming, a problem that could be solved by our bloated brains, if only we'd engage the damn gray matter for a bit....
Posted by snowball666 at 05/09/2009 @ 09:03am
So, if there is global cooling, us humans could solve it as well?
I sure would like to know how it can be done if the cause is say, low levels of solar activities.....burn everything in sight to generate direct heat and produce as much greenhouse gas as we can to trap whatever solar radiation that penetrates our atmosphere?
Of all the things about our modern society that boggles the mind, is thoughts like yours.....assuming the earth is static and humans can `doctor' it.
Go listen to some George Carlin.....he makes Rush sound like a 2-yr old on GW.
Posted by Happy at 05/09/2009 @ 5:18pm
happy,
we made holes in the ozone layer.....
we destroyed the aral sea.....
we turned australia into a desert.....
BTW please don't insult 2-yr olds..
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/09/2009 @ 7:03pm
Yo' Snow, 'sup bro?
Always enjoy your commentary here. Sharp stuff, dude.
But I do have a question though. If the brain is a tool "who" is the wielder?
Just a thought. I'm thinkin' I'll throw in a few more cents later maybe.
How's you been FZ? Been doin any Michigan gigs lately?
I've been loving the hockey playoffs lately --a lot of heavily heated and physical series going on right now. I'll be checking out the Pens and Caps in a bit on the DVR machine (the only way to watch tv --sans mind numbing commercials). Playoff hockey is the best major league spectator sport in my opinion.
Interesting that the Carolina Bastards ...er.... 'Canes have perhaps the best fan support at home in terms of loud and raucous crowds. I like 'em 'cuz they're outhustling the bigger and highly favored Bruins.
P.S. Full disclosure: I had a couple hockey fantasy league teams in the past that we're named the Mutherfuckers (SUPER Muthafuckas after obtaining Mario Lemieux) and the Bastards. Great Hockey team niks I think.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/09/2009 @ 7:58pm
we destroyed the aral sea.....
we turned australia into a desert.....
BTW please don't insult 2-yr olds..
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/09/2009 @ 7:03pm
Then why did you do so with dumb statements like those?
<The main reason for the formation of the Australian deserts is their location.
Like most major deserts across the world the Australian deserts can be found around a certain latitude (roughly 30° north/south of the equator) where the weather phenomena create a dry climate:
Hot moist air rises at the equator. It cools as it moves north or south, the moisture condenses and falls as abundant rain onto the tropical regions. Finally the now dry air sinks over the subtropical regions, warming as it sinks, which encourages evaporation, and voila: you get more evaporation than rain, perfect conditions for the formation of a desert.
While climate change means most of Australia is experiencing the worst draught ever, it also means that rainfall in the Australian desert is increasing!
http://tinyurl.com/o524q3
Aral sea dried up because of Russian Dams, not global warming
<Once the world's fourth-largest saline body of water with an area of 68,000 km2, the Aral Sea has been steadily shrinking since the 1960s, after the rivers Amu Darya and Syr Darya that fed it were diverted by Soviet Union irrigation projects. By 2004, the sea had shrunk to 25% of its original surface area, and a nearly fivefold increase in salinity had killed most of its natural flora and fauna. By 2007 it had declined to 10% of its original size, splitting into three separate lakes, two of which are too salty to support fish>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea
Quit drinking the Gore Kool-Ade, it's bad for your mind.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/09/2009 @ 8:03pm
Quit drinking the Gore Kool-Ade, it's bad for your mind.
~antisocialist
Might I suggest a climatologist to complement your daily proctologist?
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/09/2009 @ 8:06pm
Here comes Kool Ade......Oh YEAHHH!
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/09/2009 @ 8:08pm
Great choice of vid by the way, Snow.
Love the guitar tones and complementary vox of "Black Francis".
Delectable stuff --and nice warm strings backing synth I think.
Actually, in light of the now infamous "Faces of Death" restaurant footage, perhaps "delectable" is the wrong adjective?
I dig it, nonetheless.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/09/2009 @ 8:18pm
blow it out your pootootee, larry.
i commented that HUMANS CAN MESS UP SHIT REAL GOOD.
the russians destroyed the aral sea -- they are humans.
human made cfcs poked big holes in the ozone layer.
humans burned the dung out of australia thousands of years ago.
BTW al gore is a bacon-eating politician. no friend of frosty's.....
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/09/2009 @ 9:05pm
Australian desert linked to landscape burning by ancient humans
Landscape burning by ancient hunters and gatherers may have triggered the failure of the annual Australian Monsoon some 12,000 years ago, resulting in the desertification of the country's interior that is evident today, according to a new study.
University of Colorado at Boulder Professor Gifford Miller said the study builds on his research group's previous findings that dozens of giant animal species went extinct in Australia roughly 50,000 years ago due to ecosystem changes caused by human burning. The new study indicates such burning may have altered the flora enough to decrease the exchange of water vapor between the biosphere and atmosphere, causing the failure of the Australian Monsoon over the interior.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/09/2009 @ 9:06pm
CALIFORNIA WATER SHORTAGE WILL IMPACT HOME VALUES!
The most precious of resources is becoming even more rare, more entangled in litigation and more a part of future home development than we know. In the years to come, absent of any major victories, the lack of water stands the reach chance of stopping future home development in Southern California. It's simple, do the math: Less homes due to EIR's not able to identify and secure long-term sustainable water supplies for new development means NO NEW HOMES. Couple that with a continued demand to live in Southern California and you clearly point to a demand that will soon outstrip supply and prices will go UP!
Here is what the Governor is saying: "California faces its third consecutive year of drought and we must prepare for the worst - a fourth, fifth or even sixth year of drought."
- Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
This is your chance to get involved in this debate and learn more today!
Riverside County Water Symposium Palm Springs Convention Center May 28, 2009
•••••
looks like larry's trying to create his own little australia......
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/09/2009 @ 9:10pm
Posted by FZ at 9:06pm
I was almost going to throw in something along those lines, but I am big on energy conservation. When it comes to perps like Larry V and several others here my feeling is that their level of "effort" to understand anything of importance deserves to met with the --ideally clever-- ridicule it so richly deserves.
I've said it before, I think Larry V has some decent traits that I respect, but rational argument is pretty much not in there.
Now, Happy the candy-colored Clown --that's another story. That dude gets nothing but disdain from me for his grand pomposity and self-important snivelling. And claiming to have "missed out" on Vietnam --barely-- just seals the deal.
Shark chum.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/09/2009 @ 9:19pm
An old fav. Back again for Happy's pleasure:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJtGCvKpEWM
I think a favorite part of this scene is Isabella Rosellini's screaming at Frank (Dennis Hopper).
I happened to rent this film awhile back (a rewatch of a classic) and watched it in conjunction with The Dark Knight. Made The Dark Knight that much lamer than it already was --I certainly realized what a bunch of tripe it was that 60's Batman was so "scary" and "violent" to many uptight folks. That garbage actually served to desensatize kids to violence as surely as any John Wayne junk I think.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/09/2009 @ 9:30pm
Oops, no spell check in this browser. Oh well.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/09/2009 @ 9:32pm
Saturday, May 9, 2009 10:39:49 PM
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/09/2009 @ 9:37pm
Whelp, back to the NHL. Now that's violence I can really enjoy!
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/09/2009 @ 9:38pm
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWXoFAaZ11M
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/09/2009 @ 9:41pm
bkool,
forget hoollywood...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt7PvTwYF3E&feature=related&fmt=18&fmt=18
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/09/2009 @ 9:46pm
think about this the next time your car falls into a sinkhole on the interstate:
A giant US military base emerges in Afghanistan
2 days ago
CAMP LEATHERNECK, Afghanistan (AFP) -- In the forbidding Afghan desert, US engineers are carving out a sprawling military camp as part of a dramatic American troop build-up designed to confront Taliban insurgents.
The desolate plain in southern Helmand province that Afghans call the "desert of death" has turned into a hive of frenetic activity, underscoring President Barack Obama's decision to expand the US military commitment to the war.
Defence Secretary Robert Gates flew into Camp Leatherneck on Thursday to get a first-hand look as dozens of bulldozers kicked up clouds of dust and soldiers swung hammers in searing heat.
••••
camp leatherbrain..........
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/10/2009 @ 01:10am
Camp Monumental Ignorance.
Thanks for the "Planet of Vampires" post. Haven't watched it all yet, but it looks pretty intriguing.
Catch ya' on the flip, Z.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/10/2009 @ 01:17am
Another worthy nominee:
Camp Ozymandias
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/10/2009 @ 01:24am
There are three stories deliberately neglected by the American press,so how can Obnama profess to have a comprehensive policy particlularly with Afghanistan when he is sweeping these three factors under the rug? This is why I personally skip the propoganda and spin here in the US and mostly read foreign newspapers and blogsites.Three examples of hot topics that are vital yet ignored here in America: (1)American generals who claim to be "expert pundits" on war but don't advertise their conflict of interest in that they have been bribed heavily with billions of dollars to shill for the admninistration in return for billions of dollars of defence industry contractor work. (2) Very little coverage was given to Gazan war crimes , so that one got more information from say Haaretz and Democracy Now than the New York Times. (3) The public has not bought the impending Afghanistan adventure, and like Iraq, the administration are making it up ad they go along. But we've been round this block before. Timesonline.oo.uk had a brilliant reason why there is this disparity, yet no American newspaper has mentioned that the overwhelming reason why the Pakistani public mistrusts the US more than they fear the Taliban is because they ALL feel, misguided or not, that the US was instrumental in engineering 9/11,possibly with the help of Israel. This may have been fueled by the recent publication of a biochemical paper published by the University of Copenhagen that proved explosives were used to demolish the WTC; A TV interview with one of the 6 or so scientists was given throughout Europe, but not in America.That's why an independent prosecutor could dispel or validate what the people believe.The public distrusted the US in Iraq and we lost the war hands down.
Posted by mystic at 05/10/2009 @ 01:26am
Or....
Fort "Is This Really Necessary?"
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/10/2009 @ 01:26am
One more for good measure...
Camp ConocoPhillips
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/10/2009 @ 01:36am
Or was it Unocal? It gets confusing.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/10/2009 @ 01:38am
Good points, by the way, Mystic.
Haven't heard about the Copenhagen paper --and it sounds a bit trite on the surface of it-- but I'll let the story develope. If "proven" is accurate then we should be hearing about it eventually.
We'll see. The fact of the matter is that --based alone on a solid grasp of the absurd, over the top shenanigans of the CIA over the decades-- many would not be entirely shocked if some sort of inside plot was involved.
But color me at least a bit skeptical at the moment.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 05/10/2009 @ 01:53am
For the 9/11 inside job myth followers.
This link is from no less than Counterpunch (hardly a rightwing source)
It is the first of a 3 part series, debunking the myth of 9/11 being an inside job.
We See Conspiracies That Don't Exist The Physics of 9/11 By MANUEL GARCIA, Jr.
http://www.counterpunch.org/physic11282006.html
Posted by antisocialist at 05/10/2009 @ 11:02am
#
We need to get out of Iraq, out of Afghanistan and quit muking things up in Pakistan. There is no reason to have troops in that or any other part of the world.
Posted by chaoszen at 05/08/2009 @ 12:36pm | ignore this person | warn this person
History is the reason. Recent history.
Pakistan has nukes. Pakistan has disseminated that technology to multiple nations. Libya snitched. Bin Ladin and the Taliban want those nukes. We actually need to prevent that.
Without substantially disagreeing with the author, I would note that no exit strategy was articulated because it is a new game; rather it's the fourth quarter and a new quarterback has entered the game. We are getting our asses kicked at the moment (as any objective observer could not fail to see) and the only possible exit strategy - at the moment - is to simply pull out.
That may wind up being our only option - especially if we don't (as another poster commented) fund an educational counter to the madrassas - but I want to give the new guy a chance before I throw in the towel. This one is for all the marbles.
I am willing to wait - for a bit - for an exit strategy. Bush couldn't have screwed things up more if he had tried. If a solution exists at all, I expect it will take a little time and Barack took over as the whole mess is collapsing.
When Kennedy took over Eisenhower's war - Vietnam - he also had to rely on holdovers and bad CIA advice, so made some bad decisions. He promised to study the situation and either win it or get out. In October of 1963 he announced that he had studied the situation - and that the first 1000 troops would be home by Christmas. He was shot in November and Johnson escalated.
Pulling out now is at least as risky as holding on for a bit.
Think about it.
Posted by UnEasyOne at 05/10/2009 @ 9:31pm
"Smart Power in Pakistan/Afghanistan?"
how about mind your own #!@### business?
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 12:14am
Sorry - it IS our business. We were attacked. The Taliban still harbors our sworn enemies - and they may just be on the verge of acquiring Pakistan's nukes. We simply can't afford to let that happen. Even if they wanted to use em on India instead of us, blowing the hell out of that side of the world wouldn't do this side of the world any good.
That argument was valid in Iraq; not in Afghanistan - not regarding the Taliban.
And Pakistan? They created the Taliban and I'd be very surprised if the intelligence service that did so has withdrawn support. The intelligence services, the army and the government seem to be competing entities with wildly different agendas and power bases.
One thing is pretty clear: there is an elected government in Pakistan that is in dire need - if it is to survive the Taliban onslaught or prevent another military coup, it needs outside help. The Bushies made it worse, of course. The question is, what do they really need to survive and provide some stability; or is it even possible to prop them up.
If not, then what?
Posted by UnEasyOne at 05/11/2009 @ 02:24am
"Smart Power in Pakistan/Afghanistan?"
how about mind your own #!@### business?
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 12:14am | ignore this person | warn this person
hmm...
seems like that didn't work out too well...9/11 and all...
how bout...
1. don't concentrate most of your resources attacking someone who did not attack you rather than the folks who did...
2. attack with overwhelming force and leave a bag of economic stimulus...
3. successful or not, either get out or become invisible before the uncommited of the vanquished (or "liberated") get sick of you and learn to hate you...
4. don't try to assimilate or amurikanize radically different cultures...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/11/2009 @ 07:39am
In addition to the war, I think that Obama needs to use a lot of soft power. Specifically, I would like to see him use efficient foreign aid to address severe poverty overseas. The Borgen Project has good info on the estimated cost of ending global poverty:
$30 billion: Annual shortfall to end world hunger.
$550 billion: U.S. Defense budget.
Posted by davidwaters at 05/11/2009 @ 2:43pm