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Not since Iraqi WMD has there been a bogus news story more loved by the conservative media than the quote-unquote "War against Christmas." So complete is their martyrdom-like passion for this myth that you'd think we lived in a time when Christians were regularly being fed to Coliseum lions. Therefore, while I rather like the holiday myself, as editor of The Nation I feel duty bound to provide their empty, bloviated rhetoric with some ammo. Here are my three battles against Xmas.
1) Family-photo Christmas cards that married people send to their single, childless friends. Would you send a Thanksgiving card to starving people? A Fourth of July card to the Queen? These are not gifts; they are taunts. And they should be banned.
2) Corporate America's year-end decisions to reduce health and pension benefits to boost their annual earnings statements. Would Santa threaten to open a factory in Shanghai to bring the elf union to the negotiating table? What could be more bah-humbug than the news that daddy can never afford to retire? This Scrooge-like practice should be banned.
3) Christmas office parties. Sure, they seem fun, but nothing spells sexual harassment lawsuit like an open bar, mistletoe, and the prospect of spending the holidays alone or with an angry spouse. I think this is one area where Bill O'Reilly and I can agree: Christmas office parties should be banned.
What's really going on? The guys over at Fox, like O'Reilly and John Gibson (author of the new book, The War On Christmas) are using this battle because they'd like to see America trend theocratic. But despite the hours of attention the rightwing media have devoted to this manufactured crisis, they're unlikely to win. And it's not because they're up against a liberal plot. Gimme a break. It's because they're on the side of intolerance.
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Katrina vanden Heuvel
Thoughts on politics, current affairs, riffs and reflections on what’s in the news and what’s not--but should be.
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Katrina,
Duh....
"And it's not because they're up against a liberal plot. Gimme a break. It's because they're on the side of intolerance."
Having a problem stating in some form that there is only one truth i.e. that Jesus is the way the truth and the life, NO one gets to God but through me, thus being intolerant IS a "liberal plot". For goodness sakes that's the main platform of "progressivism", you know, the whole "let's all be tolerant, we can all get along, let's not say Merry Christmas because it might offend .00000000075 % of Americans", and all that crap.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/14/2005 @ 5:58pm
Merry Christmas Todd.
Posted by Peter Rothberg at 12/14/2005 @ 6:08pm
Sorry, Ms vanden Heuval....again, I think you miss the "Big Picture"...not about Christmas.
It's about ALITO. This is a build-up to a fight over Alito and his decision versus the ACLU over a manger scene (or something, I gotta do further research on this, I grant).
Then, come the New Year, it gets brought up as "See, those libs WERE going after Christmas...they oppose Samuel Alito who tried to SAVE IT from them and their ACLU".
and it might work....hope not...but it might.
Posted by Mask at 12/14/2005 @ 6:31pm
Hmmm...can't help but wonder "What would Jesus do?" I think he'd tell the extremists on both sides of this debate to "get a life" - stop haggling and focus on doing things like feeding the hungry, helping the poor and loving one another (even when we don't agree.) Oh, and I'm one of them thar liberal progressive nutballs and, dang it, I missed the secret "Liberal plot" memo ordering us to "attack Christmas" (guess it got lost in the mail). Silly me, I've been decorating, baking, and making plans to do more with my Church this season (including feeding people less fortunate than I.)
Posted by dukecitydiva at 12/14/2005 @ 7:16pm
Katrina vanden Heuvel writes, "Not since Iraqi WMD has there been a bogus news story more loved by the conservative media than the quote-unquote "War against Christmas."
Well, Katrina, you ain't seen nothin' yet. The screeching from the evangelicals over Ang Lee's movie, Brokedown Mountain is just beginning. This will be the mother of all homophobic hate-filled cacophony, led of course by the pious and sanctimonious people like James Dobson of Focus on the Family, Tony Perkins Family Research Council and of course the ubiquitous holier-than-thou Jerry Falwell.
Republicans have always been fixated on other peoples' sex lives and will go to any lengths to pass legislation which allows them to snoop and intrude into others' personal lives and just about every behavior which departs from their own narrow, rigid moral dogma which they want to impose on everyone.
They are hell-bent on legislating morality for every U.S. citizen and it is why they are pushing so hard to take away the rights and freedoms of anyone who disagrees with them.
Hence, their obsession with kicking out evolution from all public schools and substituting their literalist Creation Science-Intelligent Design biblical interpretations which are grounded in the first seven chapters of the Book of Genesis.
Look no further than the faith-based hate teachings of Bob Jones University which was founded on anti-Black, anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic exegesis. This is what the corrupt Republican Party now represents -- racism, hatred of our multi-faceted, ethnically diverse culture and total contempt and repudiation of the pluralism which has made our country great -- all that they wish to destroy completely and replace the U.S. Constitution with a rigid, punitive and totalitarian theocracy.
They are well on their way to achieving that with G. W. Bush and Dick "Go f_ _k yourself" Cheney at the helm. Cheney, of course, has a clear track record for his racist views when he was a congressman from Wyoming voting against imposing sanctions on the racist, apartheid South African government, pushed to keep Nelson Mandela in prison and voted against one of the most successful outreach programs for the poor and disadvantaged, Head Start.
Bush, as we know, has all of 2% support from Blacks in this country although recent polls may have shown a doubling of that all the way up to 4%. No surprise with Bush of course. Once he got in deep trouble losing the 2000 primaries in New Hampshire and Michigan to John McCain he immediately retreated to his rock-solid voter base in the Bible Belt South where he reinforced his racist constituency and reassured them that he would support their bigoted, racist views.
He certainly has not let them down as we see now in how quickly he and his corrupt Republican-controlled U. S. Congress abandoned the needy, the poor and the powerless, disenfranchised citizens of New Orleans who will not have a Merry Christmas nor receive the sort of gifts that Bush doled out for corporate welfare when he handed the wealthiest 1% of the population $1.35 trillion in tax cuts.
Nor will they share in the bacchanal celebration of greed and record deficit borrowing and spending which are symptomatic of the entire self-aggrandizing despotic G. W. Bush and his corrupt administration of liars and gluttons.
Posted by richard38 at 12/14/2005 @ 7:16pm
Peter,
Merry Christmas !
Hey out of curiosity, did you and your family purchase a "Christmas Tree" this year or a "Holiday tree"?
I went to three stores, 2 Lowes, Target, and finally to Home Depot.
The 2 Lowes and the Target had their trees labeled "Holiday Trees". I asked the sales clerk where the "Christmas trees" were located and she respectfully responded that they didn't call them "Christmas trees" anymore, they changed the name to "holliday trees".
I gave her my email address and told her that if their company ever decided to have the balls to change the name back to "Christmas trees" and stop worrying about being politically correct to shoot me an email and I would conserider coming back to their stores to buy my trees but until then I would move on down the road until I found a place that sold "Christmas trees".
I finally bought my "Christmas tree" at Home Depot, thank God there's at least one store more concerned with marketing their products to the 85% of Americans that want "Christmas trees" instead of the 15% of athiests, Muslims, and "others" that might possibly be offended by the term "Christmas tree".
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/14/2005 @ 7:30pm
Todd,
The Christmas tree is a pagan symbol. I don't think there was a Christmas tree in the corner of the stable when Jesus is born. You are getting your religions mixed up again.
Posted by BlueTexan at 12/14/2005 @ 7:37pm
Todd,
In another blog I remember you being about other people (you know when you said you'd let air marshals blast your wife or children for the sake of homeland security), not just yourself. Shouldn't you care about everyone else's feelings above your own?
Posted by BlueTexan at 12/14/2005 @ 7:39pm
I thought that Katrina was losing it when I read her posting. Then I read Richard38 and I had a better opinion of KVH. At least she is not the worst type of bigot I have seen post here like Richard38 is.
His post is not only filled with venom and vitriol for Christian conservatives, it is consumed with lies and distortions which seem to flow like butter from his hate filled mind.
Well Merry Christmas to you Richard; but don't be surprised at a stocking full of coal. Perhaps we could all contribute to a basic education for you to overcome these obvious learning and social deficiencies that are holding you back from being a contributing member of society.
Posted by love liberty at 12/14/2005 @ 7:42pm
Merry Christmas Peter
Posted by love liberty at 12/14/2005 @ 7:43pm
I wonder how many good Christians will take time out from their shopping and photo sessions with Santa and their brats and actually visit a church. Christmas stopped being a holy-day, (holiday) a long time ago. How many presents can we fit under the tree this year. Christian conservatives are really being quite silly with this nonsense. There are millions of people in this country who are not going to have a very merry Christmas this year or any year. Let's start with Cindy Sheehan.
Posted by FRANKGRITS 12/14/2005 @ 7:28pm
I don't know where you are Frank, but we are having four services per week as we always do. We continue to invite our neighbors, we have a meal free for everyone after the service, feed the homeless, take them blankets and coats; hopefully by next summer, our new homeless shelter will be finished (the building was donated by a very nice gentleman, but needs lots of work).
While I am the first to rebuke the body of Christ for their secularism, I do not make it as such an overarching condemnation as you do. There are millions of American Christians who have a genuine Christ heart for the needy not only at Christmas, but throughout the year. This crosses into both liberal and conservative churches. It just doesn't get the attention and that is ok; we don't do it for the attention.
Merry Christmas Frank!
Posted by love liberty at 12/14/2005 @ 7:50pm
Liberty!
Why just a stocking full of coal
How about a whole truckload
It's gonna be cold in them thar hills
Posted by Will C. at 12/14/2005 @ 8:03pm
"Having a problem stating in some form that there is only one truth i.e. that Jesus is the way the truth and the life, NO one gets to God but through me, thus being intolerant IS a "liberal plot"."
Wait, what? You just phrased the most incredibly intolerant "truth" possible, and you're calling liberals intolerant? Go suck on a Christmas Cactus, bucko. Christ, as used by conservatives in power, is a machiavellian mask. They do not act Christian, they act like CEOs of a company. Except that their company is "The Republican Party and It's Supporters", not "America, the nation". It's a cynical ploy to convince all you gung-ho diehard Christians that they have your best moral and spiritual interests in mind, while simultaneously starting several wars, torturing or renditioning other human beings, demonizing their opposition, and raping the economy. Merry Effing Christmas to you too.
Posted by Megido at 12/14/2005 @ 8:20pm
Bluetexan,
Don't profess to tell me how to celebrate my religion. You can celebrate your version of Christmas how ever you want too, but don't expect me to accept your screwed up version as the correct version LOL
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/14/2005 @ 8:23pm
Bluetexan,
"Shouldn't you care about everyone else's feelings above your own?"
Only when it helps my argument = )
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/14/2005 @ 8:24pm
Frank,
"Todd, But seriously, have a very merry Christmas and celebrate it any way you wish. This is still America, land of the free."
Merry Christmas Frank, your one of my fav's. You know me well enough to know that I come here mainly to antagonize and get a rise out of the progresives that get so offended by my conservatism. You have always been one who takes it and keeps coming back, I have a lot of respect for you.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/14/2005 @ 8:27pm
Megido,
"Merry Effing Christmas to you too.
And to you Megido!
speaking of which, I'm wondering how you came up with the login name Megido and if you are familiar with the historical importance of the city?
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/14/2005 @ 8:31pm
As a rational human, I can see how non Chritians might be offended by the gluttonous commercialization of Christmas from before Halloween until the last after Christmas sale in late January. However, as a rational human being, I can see how silly it sounds to condemn a private business for attempting to not offend anybody. And as a Christian I can't understand why other supposed "Christians" feel the need to spend their time caring what anybody else does concerning their celebration (or not) of Christmas. You live in a secular country, you are free to practice whatever religion you want, and the Lowes and Targets are free to call fake conifers anything they damn well feel.
If you feel insulted, you must have a very low opinion of your faith if that's all it takes for you to feel "attacked" in any way.
Posted by Turk33 at 12/14/2005 @ 8:34pm
Now I'm off to the mall to buy the latest electronic gadget before some other mother f*&%er gets it...HO HO HO!!!
LOL
Merry Christmas and Peace for the WHOLE WORLD! (even you Todd, Liberty, Mask, et al)
Posted by Turk33 at 12/14/2005 @ 8:37pm
Katrina
Nice Piece …
Have a similar theme today with The Garlic
O'Reilly Gears Up Next War; Says Will Battle To Save "Little Christmas" http://puregarlic.blogspot.com/2005/12/wednesday-14-december-2005.html
Peace Happy Holidays
J. Thomas Duffy The Garlic: All The Cloves Fit To Peel http://puregarlic.blogspot.com/
Posted by JThomasDuffy at 12/14/2005 @ 8:37pm
Children already have Halloween - they dont need Jesus Christ scaring the heck out of them over the winter holidays. Jesus Christ does burn those who refuse to worship him in the exact right way, forever - burns them alive forever - it says in the Bible that you will be burned alive forever and not even permitted to die - ever. Children need to be protected against this sort of thing.
God is the ultimate promoter of torture in the universe. He also killed men, women, and children for not worshipping Him. Didnt he create a Great Flood, and kill ever little boy and girl on the planet, because they were too intelligent to bend down for Him and worship Him?
God wants to burn me alive forever, God wants to torture me and kill me for not worshipping Him. Christians take His side. I tell you what, youre either with me or youre with that lunatic you call your God.
Happy Holidays and Hail Santa
Posted by reidsucks at 12/14/2005 @ 8:47pm
Can't we all just give it a rest and remember what Christmas is really all about. Insufferable relatives, guilt and shame.
Bah humbug!
Posted by audiojoebob at 12/14/2005 @ 8:48pm
Political correctness is one thing, but making stupid, idiotic statements like "holiday tree" is going too far. It's not a "holday tree" it's a "Christmas tree". Just like you wouldn't say a "multiple candle holder" to describe a Menorah.
Posted by Zeddmen at 12/14/2005 @ 9:48pm
You guys are hysterical. You take a druid tradition and hang Christ's name on it and demand everyone acknowledge it. So which is you, pagans or saved? Not that it makes any difference to me. I'm going to cal the damn thing a holiday tree, and if it suits me, I'll burn some sage in your honor. But forcing people to say things they don't want to say is taking the Lord's name in vain in my book.
Posted by Legba at 12/14/2005 @ 9:57pm
OKSG - So you have been out on the frontlines of the Christmas Wars! Congratulations - it must make you feel even holier than normal as you browbeat the clerk at Home Depot or wherever it was. What strength of spirit - to lord it up over a minimum wage worker, now that takes balls. You guys really know how to go after the real meaning of Christmas - let's not worry about the commercialism thing, that's OK. But this Happy Holiday business - now that's a threat to the dominant religion in this country. What a fucking joke. Just when it seems impossible for you pompous asses to outdo yourselves, you manage it quite nicely.
Posted by Fishbite at 12/14/2005 @ 10:00pm
On the other hand, I have absolutely no problem with anybody or any business using the word Christmas or greeting me with Merry Christmas. I find Happy Holidays grating and faintly ridiculous. Just don't see it as threatening to Christianity.
Merry Christmas to The Nation staff and all posters!
Posted by Fishbite at 12/14/2005 @ 10:04pm
Todd,
If you profess to tell us that your meaning of Christmas should be ours and the poor store clerk you harrassed, then I will profess to tell you that your meaning is stupid. So there!
Posted by BlueTexan at 12/14/2005 @ 10:20pm
LEGBA:
It wasn't a "druid" tradition, it was a common "pagan" tadition around the northern hemisphere to celibrate the winter solstice with a festival of lights. Druids were Celtic pagan priests. While pagans could be used to descibe people who celibrate all sorts of traditions.
Posted by Zeddmen at 12/14/2005 @ 10:22pm
Cool.
Posted by Legba at 12/14/2005 @ 10:27pm
Fish,
"Just when it seems impossible for you pompous asses to outdo yourselves, you manage it quite nicely."
Thank you my friend, coming from you, if you are that offended at my actions, I'll pat myself on the back and say to myself "job well done". I take that as a compliment from you!
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/14/2005 @ 10:36pm
To the hyper-sensitive Christians out there:
Aren't you guys supposed to be good witnesses? Seriously Todd, if you're just trying to get a rise out of liberals with your ridiculous comments, you might have an appointment for a millstone-about-the-neck fitting on judgement day. Your comments are consistently a repellant to Christianity.
Happy Holy Days
Posted by rain man at 12/14/2005 @ 10:39pm
LL; how about offering your free meal before your service?
Posted by vano at 12/14/2005 @ 10:40pm
OKSG - Stop the self contratulation. I'm not offended at your actions, just amused. Kind of like watching the antics of a zoo animal, say a baboon.
It's impossible to take offense at someone with so little individual will, who mindlessly applies a set of rules to all his actions, who lacks the ability to see things from any other perspective. Pity maybe, mixed with the amusement - nothing more.
Keep up your staunch defense of religion with more stern invective directed at store clerks. They are, after all, responsible for setting policy at all major retail outlets. Boycott away, oh staunch soldier of Christ!
Posted by Fishbite at 12/14/2005 @ 10:45pm
I still don't understand why it matters so much. Don't the scriptures have Jesus saying, "As your faith is, so shall all things be unto you." Seems to me people who burn to be wished a merry Christmas by many folks who probably don't care one way or another are the ones who are suffering from lack of faith. If something is true, people failing to acknowledge it doesn't make it less true. Whereas, if something is built on a bunch of dogma, one thousand angels swearing otherwise, to quote Lincoln, won't make a hell of a lot of difference.
Posted by Legba at 12/14/2005 @ 10:51pm
I like how atheist leftits are telling Christians how to act. What's next? Telling Jews how to act during Hannukah? Muslims how to acts during Ramadan? No wonder voters turn off leftist dogma every election.
Posted by Zeddmen at 12/14/2005 @ 11:02pm
Damn, Zeddman, you all the ones talking this absurd crap about how Christmas is getting shut down because there are a few merchants in this world who aren't interested in wishing you a Merry Christmas and it's a bunch of bullshit. You all the ones trying to tell people how to be, sticking yourself in the middle of people's holiday traditions and spiritual beliefs, imposing your sillyass doctrine, and getting bent out of shape when people come back with the proper response, which is ridicule. Last time I picked up the bible, it referred to something called a PERSONAL relationship with the creator. Which means it's none of your damn business whether people wish you a merry Christmas or not. Celebrate with your own, don't worry about those of us who don't. That's your insecurity. Ain't nobody telling you how to be a christian. I couldn't give a damn less. That's your fool neurosis.
Posted by Legba at 12/14/2005 @ 11:15pm
Like I said. No wonder people turn off all the leftist babble every election.
Posted by Zeddmen at 12/14/2005 @ 11:21pm
Other than jumping on KVH for being silly, I didn't plan to really address the whole Christmas controversy. However, as a Pastor I want to set the record straight for both Christian and non-Christians.
While I love celebrating the Christmas holiday, love the opportunity to share with others why Christ is important, love the spirit of giving (not just money, but real giving) that seems to increase in society, here is the truth from a pastor that cares about truth.
Christians should not care how society views Christmas! Nor should we care whether other Christians celebrate it or not
If we choose to observe it fine; if not fine (as taught by Paul about observing one day over another). I would love if everyone saw this time as I do. But this is as many on the left have noted, a secular republic. I am thankful for the freedom to worship and celebrate, so that includes being thankful there are those who choose not to worship or celebrate.
I personally love the lights, the trees, the songs, et al, but I don't lose sight that it is a personal time for me to remember when God physically appeared on earth out of His love for all mankind. You may dislike me or look down on me for believing that; but just as God respects the right of people to reject Him, so must I respect those who do so.
Posted by love liberty at 12/14/2005 @ 11:24pm
I never said people should be required to say "Merry Christmas". I say "Happy Holidays" to someone if I'm not sure he or she is a practicing Christian.
Boy, you sure do think you got everyone figured out, don't you. And you're arrogant about it too. Must be great have a dinner conversation with you.
Posted by Zeddmen at 12/14/2005 @ 11:25pm
Ah yes, here we go. If the majority believes in something fervently, that must mean it's correct, right? You righties are a hoot.
Posted by Legba at 12/14/2005 @ 11:27pm
LL; how about offering your free meal before your service?
Posted by VANO 12/14/2005 @ 10:40pm
Actually, sometimes we do; my Saturday and Sunday night services sometimes we eat before, sometimes after, whatever people feel like doing.
Posted by love liberty at 12/14/2005 @ 11:27pm
Ok...just blowing my own horn here...but was I "off" about the "real-time" politics of this thing?
Alito?....ACLU?....Supreme Court fight in January?
Posted by Mask at 12/14/2005 @ 11:29pm
Calling a Christmas tree a "Holiday Tree" is akin to having a "Holiday Menorah". The tree is strictly a Christmas symbol.
The real issue here should be that well wishes are not strictly meant in reference to just Christmas or Hannukah or Kwanzaa. As a Hindu and a Patriot, I'm glad to see a more secular, and more universally inviting, "Happy Holidays" on my entering my local Macy's. Forcing everyone to enjoy December just for Christmas is too Ingsoc for my like.
Posted by GKaushik at 12/14/2005 @ 11:33pm
Love Liberty,
His post is not only filled with venom and vitriol for Christian conservatives
Please. Anyone who supported a fiscally-irresponisble candidate like Bush yet not a truly fiscally-conservative Republican like McCain for president is not a "conservative". Like a bumper sticker that says, "If going to church makes you a Christain, does sitting in a parking lot make you a car.", just because people call themselves "conservative" doesn't mean they are.
Todd,
Curious that you're so outraged over the omission of the word "Christmas" in regard to the trees yet apparently not outraged over Bush sending out "Holiday Greetings" rather than "Christmas" cards. Then again, this kind of double standard is expected from those who blindly toe the line of George "The U.S. Will Not Engage in 'Nation Building'" Bush.
Posted by TexasDemocrat at 12/15/2005 @ 12:43am
By the way, though I'm not religious, I just mailed off a Christmas card with the words "Merry Christmas" on the card, and, golly gee, not a single, solitary, individual iota of hatred for the word Christmas pooled anywhere in my liberal head in the process.
Deal with it.
Posted by TexasDemocrat at 12/15/2005 @ 01:13am
Zedd
While the winter "part-ay" is attributed to the Greco-Roman Saturnalia fest (tree included....they thought it was prety cool that evergreens didn't shed leaves. Figured it was a deity-certified shrub I guess.) However, garlands are very likely derived from Druidic ceremony...sheep innards on a sacrificial oak. Oh joy!
The Christians did what any invasive culture of the time would do, they plopped their holidays in the midst of the other and subsumed the meaning by pre-empting the time slot. Easter too...that why we have them Christian bunnies and eggs (both linked to the fecundity of Spring...we all know what the bunnies represent huh?)
So have a Happy [please check holiday as appropriate to your belief structure]
___Channukah
____Christmas
____ Kwanzaa
____Ramadan
_____Saturnalia
____Winter Solstice
____None of the Above
Posted by leftofcenter at 12/15/2005 @ 01:36am
I find it quite amusing that conservatives are going off the deep-end about stores not wanting to call Christmas Trees "Christmas Trees", and blaming liberals for it. This far left liberal quite agrees that corporations have zero backbone, and that something ought to be done about it. However, standing up for the Christmas in Christmas Trees is the least of your worries this Christmas Season.
Its amazing that conservatives have the nerve to call us loonies. Amazing.
Well this narrow minded liberal is off to admire my 1960s antique Christmas Tree (first year we've put it up, its really cool, got it from mother in-law).
Merry Christmas Everyone,
Matthew G. Leeds
Posted by Dezaad at 12/15/2005 @ 03:37am
With all due respect to Katrina, there is, in fact, a war on Christmas, being waged by O'Reilly and others who are making a concerted attempt to politicize religion in order to further their political, not religious, goals. A former Fox producer, Charlie Reina, admits as much:
But what really separates Fox from the competition is its unabashed use of religion as a divisive weapon.
I am a Christian who sends Christmas cards, has a Christmas tree, gives Christmas gifts, and attends Christmas services at my church. I do NOT send Christmas cards to my Jewish friends--I send them Hanukkah cards. The day I am told that I cannot wish people "Merry Christmas" or celebrate the birth of Christ in the manner in which I have been doing it for most of my 46 years is the day that I will believe in a "war on Christmas."
I refuse to give any credence to people who are waging war on the celebration of Christ's birth--which happens, by the way, to be celebrated during the same season as Jewish and Muslim Holy Days--by turning it into a blunt instrument with which to pummel those who disagree with their politics, and who use the Prince of Peace as the poster-boy for their own attempts to divide the country and villify people who don't share their views.
No one but O'Reilly and his fans is politicizing Christmas.
Posted by LisaJo at 12/15/2005 @ 07:54am
Love Liberty - Thanks for your post (12/14/2005 @ 11:24pm) - that was completely reasonable.
Posted by Fishbite at 12/15/2005 @ 08:31am
Having a problem stating in some form that there is only one truth i.e. that Jesus is the way the truth and the life, NO one gets to God but through me, thus being intolerant IS a "liberal plot". For goodness sakes that's the main platform of "progressivism", you know, the whole "let's all be tolerant, we can all get along, let's not say Merry Christmas because it might offend .00000000075 % of Americans", and all that crap.
Todd
Posted by OKSPORTSGUY 12/14/2005 @ 5:58pm | ignore this person
what???
Posted by ibbleblibble at 12/15/2005 @ 09:21am
Fishbite, LL's post was was reasonable except for this part: "God respects the right of people to reject Him" ...don't you burn on the lake of fire for all eternity for that? Heheh. Burn, baby, buuuuurrn. Right.
Posted by Flarney at 12/15/2005 @ 09:27am
Right? No parent in their right mind would want to punish errant offspring for all of eternity. Why do the fundis presume whoever God is is that crazy? Fearing God is one thing, making a bogeyman out of God is another. Ain't got time for it. Life and death are dreams, it's what people do with both that makes them nightmares.
Posted by Legba at 12/15/2005 @ 09:43am
Texasdemocrat,
"Curious that you're so outraged over the omission of the word "Christmas" in regard to the trees yet apparently not outraged over Bush sending out "Holiday Greetings" rather than "Christmas" cards. Then again, this kind of double standard is expected from those who blindly toe the line of George "The U.S. Will Not Engage in 'Nation Building'" Bush."
Well number one, there's a huge flaw in your argument, in that you make the ASSUMPTION that because I'm a conservative, I'm a "Bushie" and number two you make the ASSUMPTION that I was not upset about Bush using his religion to bolster his support when it helps him and to hide behind "political correctness" (such as sending out "holiday cards" instead of Christmas cards) when it helps him, in other words being hypocritical.
Let me clarify for you...
I do support Bush in general, but think he has done a horrible job with leading the war on terror. He should have finished Iraq long ago and now be in Syria, Iran and North Korea.
I do think Bush is hypocritical. I send out Christmas cards to everyone regardless of their faith becuase that's what I BELIEVE in. I'm not concerned with being "politically correct" and questions Bush's so called "religion" seeing as he convienently turns it on or off depending on his current political situation.
I on the other hand am very happy, confident and know that I know the "truth" and will wish you a "Merry Christmas" whether you are offended by it or not = )
So Merry Christmas!
(hope you aren't offended... and if you are... too damn bad)
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/15/2005 @ 10:04am
oh yet another example of how the fundyvangelist christian right
1. attempts to force its proselytizing efforts on everyone else by demanding the unreasonable then screaming oppresion when opposed. would be oppresors cannot be martyrs...
2. attempts to rewrite history through claims that this is a historically fundyvangelist country and that our deistic, often laid back nominally christian founding fathers were fundyvangelists like them
3. blatently ignores the fact that the obnoxious politically correct silliness that afflicted liberals has been largely dead since around the time it really got on people's nerves - like around the time when that show, "politically incorrect" came out. today's danger to free speech is katrina's pet "orwellian doublespeak" - from the right, of course.
u know, as i pointed out earlier, this whole winter solstice celebration was not even when christ was born (looks like around easter was the real birthday). it was an ancient, pre-cristian pagan celebration over which roman authorities pasted jesus' birthday.
if u want to really celebrate christ's b-day, do so around easter and eschew all this pagan tree stuff and gift giving crap and go to church.
finally it is niether anyone's patriotic freakin duty nor any christian's religious duty to go spend oneself into debt over this stupid, shallow, mammonistic celebration of gluttony and greed. back to hell with thee, satan claus!
so as far as i'm concerned, since xmas has not had much to do with christ's birthday for som 2000+ years anyway, whats the problem with these people?
oh yeah - they are bigotted, fanatic, drama queens who play the martyr whenever anyone effectively opposes them and get highly insulted when those who do not exactly share their beliefs and dare not think such beliefs are wonderful wish to live their lives as non fundyvangelists.
the true irony is that i honestly believe the moral, spiritual well being of people of all religious beliefs would be served far better if there were no xmas at all...but that is my belief and i apologize deeply to all fundyvangelists for insulting them by not sharing their beliefs values and desires.
ps - katrina - thanks for expanding my vocabulary - "bloviated" - great word...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 12/15/2005 @ 10:07am
Gee, I've always said "Happy Holidays" to people when I don't know if they are are Christian, and reserve the "Merry Christmas" for those that I do know are Christians (and I say "Happy Channukah" to those that I know are Jewish, "Happy Kwanzaa" to those that I know who celebrate it, "Happy Boxing Day" to Canadians and "Happy New Year" on New Year's).
When I don't know someone well enough, I don't presume to know their religion.
Happy Festivus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by bjkron at 12/15/2005 @ 10:49am
i am the in house scrooge where i work. strangely enough i am one of the most popular teachers in the school around the holidays. i bellow forth a hearty "merry xmas" and "bah humbug" to all i meet and everyone thoroughly enjoys my cheerful grumpiness.
we are having an optional "decorate your door contest" which i predictably opted out of, but one of my more sarcastic bah humbugs took it upon herself to write the following on a sheet of spiral notebook paper and staple it to my door...
This is my X-mas door! Beat this! (picture this door all pretty like).
well, we didn't win, but i am the anti-hero of most of the kids because of this, among other things.
people of all religious persuasions take this holiday stuff way way way too seriously. i choose to abstain. wish me merry christmas, happy channukah, kwanzaa, satan day, or whatever, just dont expect me to buy u a gift just because its freakin christmas.
MERRY FREAKIN XMAS!!!!!!!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 12/15/2005 @ 11:21am
Poor persecuted Christians. God (whichever one you worship) forbid that businesses, state agencies, and other organizations acknowledge that approximately 90 million people (30% of the US population)are not Christians, and have either no religious practice or a different religious practice. Much of the foundation of this country is centered specifically on the idea of protecting minority groups and view points from the oppression of the majority. Arguing that a majority of Americans are Christian, and thus should have their ways and traditions front and center is ridiculous.
Frankly, I do use the term Christmas and think this is all utter sillyness, but I just can't get over how vociferously the right plays up the persecution angle. It's like the "angry white guy" syndrome. There is no more privilaged group in the country than white males, but you'd never no it if you turn on any of the right wing mouth pieces.
War on Christmas? What a joke. One last thing... The only thing that retailers care about is moving merchandise. There support for or against the term Christmas is and has always been purely financial. Boardrooms care only about profits, not prophets.
Posted by elfrijole at 12/15/2005 @ 12:05pm
Elf,
"War on Christmas? What a joke. One last thing... The only thing that retailers care about is moving merchandise. There support for or against the term Christmas is and has always been purely financial. Boardrooms care only about profits, not prophets."
If your premise is right, which I don't think it is..
Why then the move by major retailers like Target, Wal Mart etc. to have their employees great with "happy holidays" NOT "Merry Christmas" when 85% of Americans claim to be Christians? They are essentially catering to the 15% majority and people like me are boycotting, which I'm sure is starting to hit the pocket book.
Your argument doesn't make any sense if it's "all about the money".
If it was all about the money, based purely on the demographics in America, they would be shouting Merry Christmas all the way to the bank!
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/15/2005 @ 12:21pm
sorry in the above I meant to say "catering to the 15% minority, not majority"
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/15/2005 @ 12:22pm
Thank you fishbite!
Posted by love liberty at 12/15/2005 @ 12:32pm
Love Liberty,
I also appreciated your 11:24 post, although I'd have to agree with Flarney - God's respect for nonbelievers is tempered by his apparent urge to condemn them all to eternal damnation. I consider myself a spiritual person, not an atheist, and yet I have a difficult time respecting any aspect of any organized religion that presents their way as the ONLY way. That's just me, though.
This whole "controversy" is really quite hilarious, and fortunate in that it deflects the attention of some conservatives away from more harmful causes.
I've always had a soft spot in my heart for Christmas, even though I don't consider myself a Christian (though I was baptized, and attended a Presbyterian church when I was young). I do think Jesus of Nazareth was a righteous dude, and probably highly evolved spiritually, so I can even embrace that part of it somewhat.
So, while I like Christmas, I won't shove it down anyone else's throat. Privately owned stores should do whatever they believe is going to get them the most business, I guess, that's their perogative. Public spaces should stay nondenominational, though.
Merry Christmas to those who celebrate it, and general good will to all the scrooges, and Happy Holidays to all others.
Posted by AZTeacher at 12/15/2005 @ 12:40pm
Todd,
I think retailers are just being practical. People who'd be offended enough not to shop at their store because of such a ridiculous issue are probably not going to be significant enough to affect their business. (Hint: this would put you in the minority). If they do, I'm sure they'll probably change their policy soon enough.
If you really want to believe that huge corporations have declared war on Christmas, by all means take up arms. Boycott away. Maybe it's an Al-Qaeda plot!
Posted by AZTeacher at 12/15/2005 @ 12:46pm
Am I the only person that thinks this whole story is one big bore? I mean, who cares? It seems to me that those people offended by retailers saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" have the solution to their (admittedly bizarre) dilemma: just don't shop there. For the rest of us, we can just keep going to retailers that say "Happy Holidays" and realize that those with "Egg shell thin skulls" that are purportedly offended by this retailer practice of covering all holidays and not just one(Christmas) can boycott these stores.
Posted by trabaris at 12/15/2005 @ 12:50pm
If you are unable to distinguish between empty, commercially-driven holiday greetings, (or weak-kneed attempts to be politically correct), and true heartfelt good wishes, you should put some extra IQ points on your wish list.
If you demean someone's good wishes for you because they were expressed in the wrong idiom, you deserve a lump of coal. (Red-hot coal. In your bum.)
To all those who wish their fellow man well for the holidays, I say "Right back atcha.".
And to all those who wish their fellow man well all year 'round, please run for office.
Peace,
Derek
Posted by drhammer at 12/15/2005 @ 1:02pm
As a liberal and a Christian (yes people, you can be both), I find the whole controversy amusing. Just because you change the name, doesn't change what it is. When SNL spoofs it, you know that it's too silly to make a fuss over. Excuse me while I buy a septa-candle holder for my Jewish friend.
Posted by wegarnett at 12/15/2005 @ 1:07pm
Why then the move by major retailers like Target, Wal Mart etc. to have their employees great with "happy holidays" NOT "Merry Christmas" when 85% of Americans claim to be Christians? They are essentially catering to the 15% majority and people like me are boycotting, which I'm sure is starting to hit the pocket book.
Posted by OKSPORTSGUY 12/15/2005 @ 12:21am | ignore this person
is christmas a holiday or not? so u get insulted when people wish u a happy generic holiday instead of specifically wish u a merry christmas? typical of certain varieties of christians - because i, who may not be a christian, genuinelly wish u well, but not in a way u find acceptable? in order to make u feel better, i must cater to your religious beliefs? what is anti christmas/christian about "happy holidays"? by this logic it is anti christian persecution to not say "i accept jesus christ as my personal savior", which is what this is all about really, is it not?
Posted by ibbleblibble at 12/15/2005 @ 1:08pm
This whole manufactured debate is ridiculous. Nobody is actively trying to destroy Christmas as a Chrsitian holiday. It is just giving some conservatives a made-up punching bag against liberals, who are supposedly "against" Chrsitmas. I have to agree somewhat with Mask, there must be some politcal reason behind these stupid attacks (maybe it is a set-up for Alito; I do not know).
If anything, some stores and people are pushing politcal correctness to a crazy extreme in some cases. For God's sakes, it is a Christmas tree. Nobody calls a Menorah "holiday candles." I send cards that say Merry Christmas (and sorry KVH, they usually have a family picture, including the dog. My childless single friends appreciate that my family is as much a part of MY life as their singlehood is to them; they appreciate the photos, which are usually quite clever I might add). I also receive a few cards from Jewish friends that actually say Happy Chanukah. I am not offended, and I have never heard anything ill from any of my recipients either. The point is that you are wishing someone well, and thinking about them in their lives. Let's not look for battles over the political correctness of how to pass good wishes on to others - it is a good thing that people are doing it at all.
Posted by Hman23 at 12/15/2005 @ 1:20pm
Just to hammer BOTH sides for a minute...
1. I gotta go with my liberal friends here....how the heck does saying "Happy Holidays" threaten 85% of the population's faith or even demean it? Isn't Christmas a "holiday"?...Is there any semantic difference between "Happy" and "Merry"? So what's the beef? Additionally there ARE "other holidays" that occur at virtually the same time (Hannukah, Boxing Day, occasionally Ramadan).
now the other side--
2. I also notice a subtle hypocrisy that floats around from the Left at Christmas time....that being their "Annual Holiday Rift on Consumerism". Know we've gotten a few here, typically they go "What's REALLY wrong with Christmas is the 'consumerist culture' it engenders....people going out and buying a lot of STUFF they don't need!"
Ok....then the OTHER 11 months of the year, those same guys talk about how terrible it is that our manufacturing base is eroding and how there are fewer and fewer manufacturing jobs in the US....which, in case you didn't notice, are jobs where people make STUFF, which other people buy....sometimes at Christmas!
Posted by Mask at 12/15/2005 @ 1:32pm
Good point on No. 1, Mask.
Admendment to my previous post - just checked this year's card, it actually is printed with, "Wishing you all the best this holiday season." So, Todd, is this demeaning to you? Wouldn't want to offend 85% of the population here.
Posted by Hman23 at 12/15/2005 @ 1:40pm
I forgot to add - Good point on No. 2 as well Mask.
Posted by Hman23 at 12/15/2005 @ 1:42pm
I bet some of the same fundies that are in an tizzy about the "war on Christmas" are probably the same ones who want to do away away Halloween because of its links to Paganism and the occult. Wasn't there was some commotion about that a few years ago? Maybe it was only a local thing (I'm in the bible-belt). Halloween rules. :-)
Posted by Flarney at 12/15/2005 @ 1:45pm
2. I also notice a subtle hypocrisy that floats around from the Left at Christmas time....that being their "Annual Holiday Rift on Consumerism". Know we've gotten a few here, typically they go "What's REALLY wrong with Christmas is the 'consumerist culture' it engenders....people going out and buying a lot of STUFF they don't need!"
Ok....then the OTHER 11 months of the year, those same guys talk about how terrible it is that our manufacturing base is eroding and how there are fewer and fewer manufacturing jobs in the US....which, in case you didn't notice, are jobs where people make STUFF, which other people buy....sometimes at Christmas!
Posted by MASK 12/15/2005 @ 1:32pm | ignore this person
how much chrismas crap is manufactured in the usa anyway, mask? so we have to go out and spend ourselves into debt to support our economy? why dont all the corporate executives making 400X + what their lowest paid schmuks make spend a proportion of their yearly earnings equal to that of their serfs to buy stuff and support the economy? heck, they could even buy their own stuff!!!
if becoming a debt slave is whats needed to support the us economy then i say burn baby burn...the sooner it collapses the sooner this bullshit crony capitalism will collapse and the sooner our corporate overlords will find their heads displayed on the serf's pitchforks.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 12/15/2005 @ 2:01pm
oops - italics gone wild!!!!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 12/15/2005 @ 2:01pm
Drove to the train station under three blocks of Chrismas decorations, past the tree lit during a ceremony last weekend and listening to the station now playing Christmas music 24/7. Passed Santa collecting donations at the subway, arrived at Union Square where yesterday they sold fresh-cut Chrismas trees across the park from the outdoor mall recently constructed as a month-long shopping tribute to GWBs favored advisor. Message to Gibson and the rest of the crew at the secure Fox location: your safe, Christmas is actually alive and well out here in The United States of America. Come out and celebrate.
Posted by astupar at 12/15/2005 @ 2:17pm
Mask is correct: The war on Christmas is political in its entirety. It was invented by certain figures on the far right, as a straw man: That is, invent some trumped-up nonsense that most people would find upsetting if it actually existed, and then attribute said trumped-up nonsense to your opponents. Then, attack your opponents for allegedly supporting the trumped-up nonsense that you yourself invented.
The rightwing-invented "war on Christmas" is nothing but a political stunt--a sort of religious swift-boating--designed to score cheap political points through manipulation of the ridiculously credulous and the media (which are frequently the same).
Posted by LisaJo at 12/15/2005 @ 2:36pm
I am an affirmed atheist and have no use for religion at all, but I don't see what difference it could possibly make to me if someone says 'merry christmas' or calls a christmas tree a christmas tree. 'Holiday tree' sounds kind of stupid if you ask me. Nobody buys one for thanksgiving or new year's anyway.
I always thought that 'holiday season' referred to the whole assortment - thanksgiving, xmas, new years, chanukkah, hogmanay. But the tree was for one particular holiday within that season, and it doesn't offend me in the least. I mail out a few cards and buy a few gifts, and I receive a few as well. People around here occasionally drive a little out of the way to see well displayed decorations, and why not?
Neither would I admonish jewish people to stifle whatever claptrap they may conduct.
I get a holiday, too, and plenty of good eats. We have an office carry-in and I am not about to show up empty handed or throw water on the picnic. We have another atheist here and he is just as willing to participate as I am. TV viewing gets a little lame this time of year, but no worse than sports seasons.
I go right along with all of it with no complaints or objections. Right up until something goes wrong, something is missing, etc., and the same self righteous few start looking down their noses and whispering.
Of course we all know it had to be one of those damned atheists.
Posted by TechTonic at 12/15/2005 @ 2:46pm
The "War on Christmas" is really about selling books and television and radio ratings. The creepy part is their is an audience desperate enough to consume it.
Posted by prokopiww at 12/15/2005 @ 2:48pm
When things go badly for the right, it's time to bring out the so-called "culture war".
Republicans may be corrupt and incompetent, but LIBRRULS are in league with the Grinch!
Right?
Posted by wayward at 12/15/2005 @ 2:56pm
That is, invent some trumped-up nonsense that most people would find upsetting if it actually existed, and then attribute said trumped-up nonsense to your opponents. Then, attack your opponents for allegedly supporting the trumped-up nonsense that you yourself invented.
Posted by LISAJO 12/15/2005 @ 2:36pm | ignore this person
what more need be said?
Posted by ibbleblibble at 12/15/2005 @ 3:01pm
PROKOPIWW
Well put.
Some people must feel like they are being oppressed to give their life any meaning. If there is no oppressor, then one must be invented. It had to be the "secular fundamentalists" who destroyed "traditional values", not the deficiencies of these values systems, and certainly not the marketing departments of large corporations. To me, this trivializes real persecution and hardship and comes off as whining.
The sad thing is that certain groups on the left can be as guilty of this as the right.
That being said, if you see decorated evergreen trees before Halloween, then I would be willing to say that Christmas is safe.
Posted by wayward at 12/15/2005 @ 3:06pm
IBBLE
if becoming a debt slave is whats needed to support the us economy then i say burn baby burn...the sooner it collapses the sooner this bullshit crony capitalism will collapse and the sooner our corporate overlords will find their heads displayed on the serf's pitchforks.
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 12/15/2005 @ 2:01pm
There are only two examples of that from history we can draw--
1. Occurred in Russia in the 1910s and resulted in 75 years of death, dictatorship, oppression, and eventual collapse.
2. Occurred more mildly in the United States in 1930, and resulted in a myth that government programs, and not a MAJOR war, "cured" it.
But if you think the total collapse of our economy is what's necessary to get what YOU want politically...then it says A LOT about your faith in your ability to persuade people and the value of your ideology.
Posted by Mask at 12/15/2005 @ 3:38pm
re: the so-called "Left-wing War on Christmas"
If this truly is so dire of an issue, I can only image what the Claymation Special will look like:
PART 2 - Scene 3; The Right Bites Back (with all due respect to C Clement Moore)
opening: Ted Kennedy and Michael Moore are sitting by a fire of blazing Christmas Cards and gaily-wrapped boxes. A bruised Santa is tied to a tree in the shadows. Off to the side Bill Clinton plays carols on the Sax while eyeing a buxom elf.
Ted: I'd just like to say Santa, while we have appreciated your holiday activities over the years, we feel at that the time is right to institute a more appropriate secular celebration.
Moore: Ted, shut up and pass me a candy cane dammit. I'm freezin my fat white ass over off here. I wouldn't have had any part in this crap at all except the movie rights are gonna be huge.
Bill tosses his sax aside and begins to chase Santa's helper around a tree; C'mon there you pointy-eared little cutie. Let old Uncle Bill show you what it means to fly on Air Force 1...give us a little sugar-plum.
When all of a sudden there arose such a clatter, Bill pulled up his pants to see what was the matter.
To the noisy clearing the three of them ran, wondering who had gotten wind of their plan.
When what to their liberal eyes did appear. It was GWB with a big fucking spear.
The three of them knew that the jig was sure up, when they also saw Cheney and Condi ride up.
Like the OK Corral the trios squared off, the Wingers all boastful they started to scoff
GWB: Now ya'll have gone too far dontcha see.... Santa and Christmas are comin with me.
Condi: Gnashing her teeth like a dog on a bone...you left wing loonies leave Christmas alone!
Cheney: stood back all quiet and mean, sparks from his fingertips all evil and green. He called on his Dark Lords to give him "THE FORCE" The resulting blast, killed Santa, of course.
GWB: thought, "ain't this friggin swell....but I guess I can blame it all on bad intel. It worked once before, they'll believe it twice" so they dined on roast Rudolph...ain't venison nice!
The right-winger chuckled as the left-wingers came to, Dubya said "What did you fuckers do!
We tried to stop you, and I bet you don't recall. ..But no matter what happened, YOU'LL take the fall!
With a chortle of glee they began to advance, with Homeland Security close in shiny black pants.
So Cheney sent Moore to a hidden prison camp, and Dubya had Tedd's balls made into a lamp.
Condi and Bill hooked up out in the show....she still gnashes here teeth, when she starts to blow.
As for Christmas, heck....the money still rolls in, the merchants get richer and the poor get more thin.
All things continue pretty much as before, except Dubya gets to laugh about that lamp by the door.
Reflect on this tale with cautionary tone, don't mess with Chistmas, just leave it alone.
And if you mess with our mammon, you'll be put far out of sight!
So Happy Christmas to all and to all a Good Night [Lamp clicks off...Credits Roll]
Posted by leftofcenter at 12/15/2005 @ 3:52pm
I offer my "merry christmas" to everyone in a spirit of respect and goodwill. If someone doesn't like it, I've never noticed. However the notion that saying something other than "merry christmas" to someone is somehow persecuting christians is just ridiculous to me. Do these people just sit around and think of things to bitch about allday?
Posted by zhong at 12/15/2005 @ 3:59pm
LOC,
Brilliant. Thanks for the laugh.
Posted by colmes at 12/15/2005 @ 4:06pm
When a liberal says Merry Christmas, they mean it.
When a conservative says Merry Christmas, it is abuse.
Liberal Christians worship the Fake Jesus, who is a nice guy. Conservative Christians worship the Real Jesus, who burns little kids alive for all eternity.
Liberals put down Christianity sometimes because they say that dreaming about justice and prosperity in the hereafter makes you not pursue it in real life. I disagree, I dont think it makes people pursue justice in real life, if anything it probably helps - by reducing despair.
I would say however that it is unfortunate, that a religion so obviously used as a front for Black Magical organizations, would be enticing to some liberals just because of a bogus notion that Jesus was liberal. They SAID Jesus likes poor people, anyone ever verified that? How do we REALLY KNOW that Jesus wasnt just another Pat Robertson? We dont, and those who believe in Jesus, I hate to say it but you are only helping those in power and contributing to nefarious organizations.
HAIL SANTA
Posted by reidsucks at 12/15/2005 @ 5:20pm
Yes it's probably a fact that a majority of people in this country do celebrate Christmas, but for many people that I know, it has less to do with a religious celebration and more to do with being with family, eating great food, getting presents and taking a break from work.
Should I assume that since my very fundamentalist christian in-laws have Santa and snowmen decorations on their front lawn and don't have a nativity scene that they are just being politically correct for the .001% of people who don't celebrate x-mas in their hood? Or is this just one more example of how x-mas is less about religion and more about fun?
If we wanted to go back to the origins of Christmas and really celebrate the roots of this celebratory time, we'd skip over the christian connection and go back to the times when people celebrated the "re-birth of the sun," also known as the Solstice. So to support the notion that we should stop being so politcally correct... might I wish everyone a Very Merrry Solstice.
Posted by mattdow at 12/15/2005 @ 5:26pm
'Bush has done a horrible job with leading the war on terror. He should have finished Iraq long ago and now be in Syria, Iran and North Korea.'
These Christmas defenders have apparently abandoned the Christmas spirit of being thankful for what you have.
Instead, they complain that Bush didnt do enough damage to America and they whine about wars Bush should have started so that American power and influence could really really get decimated.
Posted by reidsucks at 12/15/2005 @ 5:32pm
The Christmas War does have some resonance with me. I cannot wish fellow Christians "Merry Christmas" at work and we have moved from a "Holiday Party" to a "Winter Party". Somehow I think lawyers are involved.
My Buddist wife and her family have always celebrated "Christmas" and I also discovered my Iranian neighbors have done so since they moved to the US. As for my best friend who happens to be Jewish, I cannot recall a Christmas that he was not around to get his present under the tree.
I suspect that many would disapprove as it may not seem that religious but anytime you can get the children of Buddam Mohammed, Abraham and Christ around the same tree peacefully, that is the ultimate gift of the season.
For those of you who feel otherwise, I wish you find peace in your own way and respect others for finding theirs.
Posted by terryday at 12/15/2005 @ 8:19pm
What's this: Ralph Reed, formerly with the Christian Coalition and a Pat Robertson's protege, stole the people's money (lot of) and remains proud of it! Well, with Reed and the likes as born-again Christians (note how beautiful) you would rather follow Mohhammad.
Posted by HelenDAO at 12/15/2005 @ 10:46pm
Irony of Irony, 3 pages-- it works...
Posted by Bushfools at 12/16/2005 @ 01:42am
I liked your message, as usual Katrina, and am impressed with the quantity and overall quality of conversation/debate which pours forth in response. Especially regarding your suggested banishments, though, I believe a fundamental "disconnect" in our relationships precedes and then accelerates "emotional reactivity," especially on dates and at office parties (ha,ha). Seriously, such unpleasant feelings and judgmentalness stems from our internalization of the Judeo-Christian guilt/absolution concept of "original sin." With our Abrahamic God's punishment upon our species' progenitors consisting of pain in childbirth for women and survival through toil for males, pleasure and leisure time generally becomes more difficult to enjoy/experience.
Alternately, liberally, IMO, radically, "No hell below us, above us only sky" lyricism attempts to expand consciences so as to foster the better experiencing and then proclaiming of the "good news." Sophists who rather seem to enjoy arguing/debating about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, and what exactly SHOULD be the individual's relationship to our fellows who, after all in my opinion, "are (like us) the eyes and ears of God," and, here specifically, what euphemisms are, or are not appropriate in a world where sacred/spiritual assets seem to be secular/worldly liabilities, and vice versa, are essentially "on" and "in" the spinning wheels (Chicago) going around and around (Lennon).
I've got to attend to some humdrum domestic chores (like ALL of us, I'd wager). Thanks for reading.
Posted by lewwelge at 12/16/2005 @ 09:34am
I can't believe this discussion. I don't think there is a war againsts Christmas, it is a matter of tolerance (e pluribus unum?). But if you want to say Merry Christmas, go ahead. But expect returning the same courtesy if somebody says to you: Happy Hanakuh.
By the way: ¡Felices Fiestas! (Happy Holidays!)
Posted by Mex. at 12/16/2005 @ 09:49am
One point that I haven't seen mentioned in analyses of these "persecutions" of Christians is that the Bible tells people that they will be persecuted for their beliefs. Hence, some Christians will believe that unless they are being persecuted for their beliefs they aren't really witnessing for Christ. the problem is that here in America, where Christianity dominates religious belief, they are forced to create religious crises such a the War on Christmas in order to justify their faith. That this "war" has little to do with objective facts is kind of beside the point-- it is all about reinforcing faith. ( I should point out that I myself am a Catholic who attends Mass regularly.)
Posted by crawdad at 12/16/2005 @ 10:50am
figured i may as well jump in here. . . this is a piece i wrote for a small cooperative newspaper in atlantic canada. i figured someone should address the fella at the heart of this supposed controversy . . .
Dear Jesus
I want to wish you a happy birthday. I realize it has been a long time since I’ve written, but I figure you might want to know what is going on down here given that a lot of it is being done in your name. This season brings the utter ridiculous and the downright depressing to play at the forefront of our consciousness, though deceptively wrapped in glitz and holiday frenzy. It can be a harrowing time for those who scratch the varnish to expose the rotting frame, but beneath that, the ants still work to build your vision of an egalitarian hill.
The annual “reason for the season” controversy continues to grow unabated but not adequately probed by our beloved mainstream media. It is always noted because the cast of outraged characters is so colorful it cannot be ignored, but when properly addressed, melts away the fragile flurry of willed ignorance that blinds many through the extravagant holidays. Some conservative and evangelical thinkers believe that the liberal pursuit of political-correctness is malevolently attempting to rob them of their right to subject every person with images of you and your birthday party. Bill O’Reilly proclaims that the “secular progressive agenda (has) . . . a secret plan . . . to get Christianity and spirituality . . . out of the public square.” Jerry Falwell and the American Family Association intend to sue schools, businesses and anywhere else that celebrate the “holiday” rather than “Christmas” season. They certainly won’t be shopping at any retail chains that “ignore” Christmas. Should I even mention the city of Boston’s Holiday Tree and its origin as a Nova Scotia Christmas tree?
On the surface it may seem that these men are selflessly defending your honor and promoting the values that begat the season, but a closer look reveals that they and the administration they promote is anything but a reflection of your old teachings. Bill O’Reilly inadvertently defines Christmas when he says; “Every company in America should be on its knees thanking Jesus for being born. Without Christmas, most businesses would be far less profitable.” He’s right, of course. We pretty much have business to thank for our modern conception of what the Christmas season is all about. The sprawling retail chains that O’Reilly and his ilk attack (but otherwise worship) are secularizing the Christmas holiday in an effort to broaden the largest annual stimulus for economic consumption. Their version of capitalism includes needless consumption mixed with over-production and the yearly deluge of new products so ridiculous they make babies wince in confusion. Do we really need a toothbrush with an on-board computer? Products with inflated prices and social status are revealed to be void of substance by the post-Christmas sales of leftover inventory that help remove them from the shelves and our memories well before the next mandated buying frenzy.
We celebrate our extravagance by thanking you each year for granting us fortune and family. When the minority privileged are immersed in the bounty of the times it is easy to overlook the fact that these annual indulgences exasperate the deep inequalities that define our society. Is it any wonder that as luxury spikes for the privileged, so too does crime and suicide rates for the poor? It does well to remember that your birthday is not so much fun for the majority under-privileged and marginalized class. These people feel the societal pressure to celebrate and give presents even more than those to whom the message is directed precisely because they cannot.
So, Jesus, it does not matter to me that your birthday is on the 25th of December because an old Roman Pope wanted to co-opt the pagans’ winter solstice celebration. It does not matter that most of our Christmas symbols like the Christmas tree, Yule log, mistletoe and holly are all parts of pagan rituals. It does not bother me that you seem pretty White for a Middle-Eastern man. It does not even matter that you are probably a myth concocted by mixing the best parts of multiple pagan gods like Mithras, Apollo, Attis, Horus and Osirus-Dionysis. I just thought it might bother you that your self-appointed spokesmen are bastardizing the principles you died for. A self-proclaimed Christian US administration murders and robs Iraqis of self-determination, continues to increase Pentagon and Homeland Security spending, further guts housing and urban development and removes $45 billion from the already impoverished Medicaid program. Our Canadian government sends peacekeepers to make sure Haiti is open for multinational business at the expense of Haitians’ survival. The Christian church’s history includes the Crusades, the Inquisition, complicity with colonialism and slavery and the oppression of women, to skim the surface.
Knowing this, why would you even want your name associated with this holiday? The big picture displays none of your proclaimed virtues of non-violence, love of one’s enemy, social justice and economic and spiritual humility. But fret not, Jesus, for one has only to turn toward one’s community to find evidence of an admirable human spirit. As I have said, underneath the rotting frame the ants are building a better hill. There is no shortage of grass-roots organizations in every community making sacrifices to build a just society. Whether mitigating the symptoms, like local Adopt-A-Family programs, or aggressively attacking the roots, like Venezuela selling cheap oil to poor communities in the US, work is being done to bring light to the long shadow cast by neo-liberal economics.
So, Jesus, I do not mean to insult you, but you can stay in heaven. We do not need miracles because our spirit engenders the empathy that necessitates equality. That being said, if you do decide to come around I’d like to invite you to my Christmas party. That water to wine thing will definitely be a big hit.
sincerely
your pal victor
Posted by tomiczek at 12/16/2005 @ 11:10am
Tomiczek
I like that piece quite a bit.....
Posted by leftofcenter at 12/16/2005 @ 12:29pm
Tom,
I was interested in your piece until I read:
"It does not even matter that you are probably a myth concocted by mixing the best parts of multiple pagan gods like Mithras, Apollo, Attis, Horus and Osirus-Dionysis."
Your piece lost all credibility after that statement.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/16/2005 @ 2:21pm
If faith is evidence of things unseen, then mysticism could be considered belief in the unprovable. With Methodism's founder John Wesley, himself a defrocked Anglican minister, famously asserting that God's personal/public message to each of us is conveyed through the "quiet little voice" we hear in our hearts/heads, and which I believe to be that of our consciences, some more sensitively acute, of course, than others, each of uses our individual "free will" as we see fit in the multifarious contexts of this "nothing new under the sun" life. What did Jesus say? When two or more of you gather in my name, i.e. in the name of altruism, I'd opine, there too I will be. Sounds pretty radically inclusive for those willing to espouse selflessness and humility before a, in my opinion non-anthropomorphic "greater power."
Merry Christmas AND Happy Hanukkah and ... "so it goes" (Kurt Vonnegut).
Posted by lewwelge at 12/16/2005 @ 2:52pm
I received this email from the building management, the landlord:
Please see attached memo regarding building hours. HAPPY HOLIDAYS Facilities
Should I move out? Should I go down to the building managers office, bang on the door, jump up on his desk, flail my arms, scream at him, and recite Bible verses?
Posted by reidsucks at 12/16/2005 @ 3:02pm
Reid,
"Should I move out? Should I go down to the building managers office, bang on the door, jump up on his desk, flail my arms, scream at him, and recite Bible verses?"
Only if you feel moved to do so. You might start with finding out if he's accepted Jesus as his Lord and savior first = )
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/16/2005 @ 3:40pm
just one more whack at this dead horse, this time by the worthies in the US House of Representatives:
Rep. Jo Ann Davis, freshman from my homestate Virginia (and successor to ed schrock, another too-selfrighteous-for-his-own-good character) had her sense of the house resolution defending santa, the eight tiny reindeer and other miscellaneous periphernalia from the cult of the baby jesus passed by 421-22, with 5 courageous souls voting "present."
i will try my darnednest in the future not to mouth any more thoughtless, insensitive remarks like, "have a nice holiday" -- as this may not be sufficiently reverential or rhetorically imprecise.
maybe next time i'll try, "was santa good to you?"
Posted by wpahnelas at 12/16/2005 @ 3:55pm
Since the Iraq elections were held in December (thus signifying FREEDOM for the Iraqis), let's call Christmas trees...
Freedom Trees!
While we're at it, Christmas should be renamed to Freedommas.
Merry Freedommas to all and to all a good night!
Posted by bjkron at 12/16/2005 @ 4:04pm
According to the Colbert Report, "holiday" is derived from "holy day." For this reason Colbert is mad at those who substitute Merry Christmas for Happy Holiday!
Posted by John Earl at 12/16/2005 @ 4:26pm
According to the Online Eymological Disciontary, the word word holiday comes from "O.E. haligdæg, from halig 'holy' + dæg 'day'" -- so isn't it a splendid couple of ironies that right wingers whine about people saying "Happy Holiday" and that those who attempt to avoid offending non-Christians chose to wish people a happy holy day?
Posted by jinkshed at 12/16/2005 @ 4:41pm
Geez, Louise, you'd think that the Christian mythologists would be whining about "Christ"mas being plastered all over Target, WalMart, and the like. After all, didn't Jesus come from and preach about humbleness and simplicity? What's so "humble" and "simple" about having his--er, His--name double duct-taped all over aisles laden with stuff?
Until the sytem of public education in this country improves, and people actually value the objectivity of science and reason over the blithering idioticy of the so-called "culture war," we will continue on our bus to hell--driven by none other than those who so easily fall prey to the notion of the Big Bad Guy in the Sky.
When conservatives start upholding the same standards for themselves as they do for the rest of us, I'll listen to the gibberish about "Christmas." Until then, happy holidays, everyone!
Posted by Sheri at 12/16/2005 @ 4:47pm
I am entirely in agreement with the sentiments expressed by Katrina Vanden Heuvel in her piece on "The (I beleive, fabricated) War Against Christmas."
Why these manipulators of public opinion, the Bill O'Reilly's, etc. are given any credibility at all is what surprises me most.
I have friends of just about every religion and who each celebrate this time of year in different ways. We, none of us, have ever made an issue of these differences with one another. Ever. I celebrate Christmas with no fear whatsoever of retribution or its demise!
Christmas, even for Christians, is celebrated in numerous ways...so let's not get silly about what is, or is not the official celebration at the time of Winter Solstice.
What those who are claiming that a war exists against Christmas, are surely attempting to do, is to encourage intolerance.
They are feeding into the view that there can only be one religion, and that only one religion can be expressed.
A Christmas tree has absolutely nothing to do with Christ and his work. It's a tree. Simple as that. A tree that we imbue with meaning...
So what does it matter if in a store it is called Holiday tree or a Chanukkah tree, or a Christmas tree?
We have young men and women dying over seas in our name. We have increasing numbers of people slipping into poverty in this country. Aids is a worldwide epidemic...
There are so many real issues to be concerned with at this time of year. Issues that I believe Christ would have been focused on if he were alive today.
I doubt very much, given all the pain and suffering in the world, if Christ would have spent much energy quibbling over Holiday Greetings vs. Merry Christmas. In fact, to do so, seems very unChristian.
Posted by Prufrolic at 12/16/2005 @ 5:04pm
I, personally, have no issue with calling it a Christmas tree, since it started as a tradition to celebrate Christmas, however, since there are people who do not necessarily celbrate Christmas who might want to put up the tree, I don't see what the problem is with calling it a Holiday Tree. To forbid people to say "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Hannukah" or "Happy Kwanza" or whatever holiday happens to be going on, is PC extreme. It is also dangerous to say one must call this a Christmas Tree or whatever. I am an atheist, but will wish people a Merry Christmas since I want them to have joy this time of year and if that's what makes them happy, then so be it. I, however, usually say, "Happy Holidays" because it is all-inclusive and I recognize that there are different groups celebrating different holidays.
It should not be mandatory to say, "Merry Christmas" or, "Happy Holidays" as it should be a personal choice and personal freedom. Isn't that what the USA is supposed to be all about, anyway? Aren't we supposed to be able to celebrate whatever holiday we want without imposition from any group, Christian, Atheist, Jewish or otherwise?
Posted by Paunk at 12/16/2005 @ 5:05pm
Couple of thoughts: First, it's not clear to me how a few nutcases in midwestern university towns constitute a cultural assault. Also not clear what Rio Bravo's widowed daughter has to do with any of this, though that's surely devastating.
Second, "Holiday Tree" is not just "culturally sensitive," it's historically accurate, insofar as the tree as symbol predates celebrations of Christmas. It's also puzzling to me why those who do celebrate Christmas (myself among them) would be upset by "Holiday" in any event. For believers, is it not a "holy day"?
The same is true, by the way, for "X-mas": the "X" derives from Christ's initials in Greek, and was used as a symbol long before Hallmark et al adopted it. The fact that there are people who use it without knowing this doesn't change its original meaning any more than the rampant commercialization of the holiday itself changes its origin.
It also seems to me that anyone dedicated to the teachings of Christ -- at least as far as it's in my capacity to grasp them -- would be less interested in the use of Christ's name and more interested in Christ's values. And if that's the case, then is it not a good thing that increasing numbers of people seize this time of year as a chance to practice charity, humility, benevolence and kindness toward their families and their fellow humans? If calling it a "Holiday Tree" makes it easier for others to join in with that spirit, it seems to me we'll all be the better for it.
So far as I know, no one has proposed regulation on the ways in which churches or Sunday schools educate their congregations on the meaning of Christmas. No one has proposed regulation on the ways in which individual households choose to celebrate Christmas. If and when they do, maybe -- *maybe* -- there's a story there. (I'll say it again: not every crackpot constitutes news.)
I'll disagree with KVH on one point: I'm not so sure O'Reilly and Gibson are all that interested in a theocratic state. I think rather that O'Reilly and Gibson are interested in fattening the bank accounts of O'Reilly and Gibson, as well as those of their various employers and agents and hangers-on. They're interested in selling books, selling ads, and scoring lucrative speaking engagements.
The "War on Christmas" is indeed manufactured. And it sells well.
Posted by brinnewyork at 12/16/2005 @ 5:23pm
I generally refrain from cross-posting and try to stay "in topic", so please pardon both now:
Saw the late Peter Jennings final report last night. The tape/DVD is for sale on the ABC site. It is a profound look into the broken health care system and very worth watching
SPECIAL: Peter Jennings Reporting: Breakdown -- America's Health Insurance Crisis: 12/15/05
Buy it here: BREAKDOWN [tinyurl.co.uk]
Posted by leftofcenter at 12/16/2005 @ 5:33pm
Nobody here has mentioned that Christmas Day is also the 1st-day of Hanukah this year; how far does eGo Reilly re-spin that superficially preemptive coincidence? http://www.billcostley.blog-city.com
Posted by Bill Costley at 12/16/2005 @ 5:41pm
The person Jesus was a historical figure, well documented by classical historians. Many theologians agree that many of the stories that were written about him, however, were based on earlier models, as Tomiczek says. Some say the stories of his life were written as political propaganda.
The Gospel of Mark is supposed to be the most accurate version of Jesus' life in the Bible. It does not contain any version of his birth story, nor any of the other stories of his childhood. The current Harper's has a very interesting article about the "Gospel of Thomas," which contains merely the sayings of Jesus, no autobiographical information. Some say the "Gospel of Thomas" is the most contemperaneous account of Jesus and thus the most accurate.
Posted by katehm at 12/16/2005 @ 5:55pm
What difference does it make what you call your tree? A few days after Christmas you will call it trash and it will be out by the curb.
Posted by Friscodog at 12/16/2005 @ 6:05pm
We Pagans have had our disagreements with the monotheist community over the centuries but,I would like to thank all of the members of that community who do so much to keep our Pagan taditions alive. I particularly want to thank all those who, at the Winter Soltice, decorate trees with ornaments and lights. If it were not for your efforts the Sun would fail to come back. Where would we be then?
Posted by Clothodi at 12/16/2005 @ 10:13pm
.
Each of the three reasons for Katrina Vanden Heuvel's "War" is ridiculous. It is not clear whether she is trying to be funny, or not.
Andrea Peyser has a better sense of humor. Her December 16 column, in New York's, Daily News, includes this:
To the religious among you doing good works during Christmas, I salute you. However, you needn't call attention to yourselves for that will be your reward.
Posted by seattlescribe at 12/17/2005 @ 02:20am
I see the alleged War Against Christmas to be one of the greatest ironies. Not just because so much of Christmas is actually a syncretic blend of Christian and pagan practice, but because Jesus always preached that we should do to others as we would want them to do to us. I'm Methodist; I would prefer that my children weren't forced to celebrate the Buddhist's Birthday (although the candlelit ceremony IS eerily beautiful), and I wouldn't want to have to wear a hajib at work because that's what most people going into Home Depot wanted. Non-Christian parents have a hard enough time during Christmas, which is not a holiday but a behemoth. Why would we want them to go through more? Why insist that schools violate the law by singing nothing but Christmas carols and doing a Christmas tree?
And what's "Christian" about forcing employees who might not be Christian to say "Merry Christmas"? Or forcing non-Christians to listen to it?
If we really want to honor Christ, we'll follow his request: "Feed my sheep." Not cow some poor wage slave.
Posted by Miss Ivonne at 12/17/2005 @ 09:48am
Now the left says there isnt a war on Chrstmas? tell that to the kids forced to sing winter night , the lyrics were changed fromt he original silent night.why does the aclu sue to get any thing to do with jesus out of malls and public property.why does the left insist calling christmas break winter break. you started the war, and nothing worries the left more than when christians fight back.I am not rich, but the democrats thought i was to rich for a tax cut, what a bunch of scrooges.
Posted by Ben K at 12/17/2005 @ 10:30am
Miss Ivonne,
"Why insist that schools violate the law by singing nothing but Christmas carols and doing a Christmas tree? "
It's interesting you bring that up. In our little town, (and albeit, I live in a pretty conservative and very Christian part of the country in Oklahoma) our local high school, part of the Sapulpa Public School system is having the drama team put on a play over the "Winter Holidays" called "The Messiah" pretty neat huh ? = )
I haven't heard one Muslim, atheist or Buddhist complain to the school board about being offended.
Perhaps somebody ought to call the ACLU and have them look into this atrocity! LOL
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/17/2005 @ 11:07am
Just as The Right misrepresents Pro-Choicers as being in favor of abortions (in truth the pro-choice movement is opposed to government interference with a woman's right to choose), so does it misrepresent those in favor of upholding the constitutionally required separation of church and state as waging a "war on Christmas."
No one is suggesting that individual citizens are not free to celebrate Christmas and say "Merry Christmas" as many times as they like. But the government, either through the educational system or public displays, is constitutionally barred from promoting a particular religion.
Posted by MichaelCaditz at 12/17/2005 @ 3:25pm
Will you people stop with this nonsense about christmas. A recent poll showed 38% of americans agree with the torture of terrorist suspects. A strong majority of americans are for the death penalty. Some moron implied that america is 85% christian. Must be part timers.
Posted by sicupandfed at 12/17/2005 @ 6:03pm
Sicupandfed,
Oh..
So you are saying one can't be a Christian AND support the death penalty?
I don't read any where in my bible where it says you are a Christian if you accept Christ as your Lord and savior AND fight to abolish the death penalty.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/17/2005 @ 6:43pm
Sicup...
Yeah...maybe its OK to kill in the name of the Lord. After all, he did have some guy killing his own children way back when, then there was that whoe Sodom & Gomorrah thing. (Kinda like butchering kosher for Jews...or "jihad" for muslims...or killing "righteous" for Christ? Ooops, the guys we're fighting are saying THAT kinda thing, huh?)
Maybe the Hindus are right....all the various versions of "God" are one and the same...albeit with a really odd sense of humor.
Posted by leftofcenter at 12/17/2005 @ 7:14pm
Will you people stop with this nonsense about christmas. A recent poll showed 38% of americans agree with the torture of terrorist suspects. A strong majority of americans are for the death penalty. Some moron implied that america is 85% christian. Must be part timers.
Posted by SICUPANDFED 12/17/2005 @ 6:03pm
That figure has been tossed around quite a bit but is actually not only out of date, it isn't even an accurate reflection.
The data I have and use is much more accurate and will prove disappointing to my Christian friends here and provoke other comments from those hostile or ambivalent to Christianity and especially the Born-again/Evangelical element.
I use the Barna Group which is a Christian polling/survey group. Their data is very good and from my experience as a Pastor, pretty accurate.
Those identifying as Christian in US=80%
Born Again Christians= 44%
Evangelical Christians (defined as a category within Born Again)=7%
The Evangelicals are defined not by how they define themselves but their answers to the following 7 criteria:
Those include saying their faith is very important in their life today; contending that they have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with non-Christians; stating that Satan exists; maintaining that eternal salvation is possible only through grace, not by being good or doing good deeds; asserting that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; saying that the Bible is totally accurate in all it teaches; and describing God as the all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect deity who created the universe and still rules it today. In this framework, being classified as "evangelical" is not dependent upon any kind of church or denominational affiliation or involvement.
http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Home [url]
I have been using this data and before then, the premise from it for some years now to communicate to Pastors, Churches and Christians in general that Christians in the US have a profound overestimation of the number and growth of genuine Christianity as defined in the 1st Century Church by the Apostles and the Church Fathers.
I consistently have taught that the churches and the various television evangelists who do generate great crowds are not achieving the numbers that they claim. I have seen it myself in different venues in the US where the same people come forward time after time. I refuse to enter that numbers game and I know the numbers for these large ministries are definitely inaccurate.
I don't want to suggest that they all are being deliberately misleading. For one thing, it is nearly impossible to track the repeaters without a good followup system (which is usually lacking, except for Dr. Billy Graham, whom I worked with briefly). The second factor which is not taken into account and really is impossible, is the genuineness of someone's moment of conversion. Only God knows the sincerity of the heart. The third factor which is closely related to the first, deals with those who hear, make a pronouncement of acceptance, then when life's temptations and troubles come their way, they abandon the conversion. This type Jesus spoke of as those who "received the seed on stony places" (Matthew 13:20,21).
Yes SICUPANDFED, your comment is sadly closer to the truth than most Christians would admit.
Is it any wonder that Jesus queried, "Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8
Posted by love liberty at 12/17/2005 @ 7:16pm
Ben K
I think the left's point is why aren't the rich too rich for a tax cut?
Posted by leftofcenter at 12/17/2005 @ 7:16pm
" There is nothing so close to Hell as a Good Christian" by C.S. Lewis
Posted by vano at 12/17/2005 @ 7:40pm
Todd
Yes, I am saying you can't be a christian AND support the death penalty. What bible are you reading?
Posted by sicupandfed at 12/17/2005 @ 11:03pm
LL
I realize you won't read this till after service sometime tomorrow...but, re: the Bible is totally accurate in all it teaches does this then presume the whole literal "Adam & Eve, 7 day construction schedule, 6,000 year old Earth, brimstone raining down from the sky" kinda thing?
As to number of Christians, my research seems to be right about there as total# (~77-82% self-IDing as Christians) However, in deference to SICUP's "PT" comment, it is worthy of note that I have found that only about 20% of the U.S. population actually attend church on a regular basis. So the answer then is yes, we are mainly "PT Christians" see: FT-PT [religioustolerance.org]
BTW: all a pretty decent synopsis of various religious ID polls is available at: POLL [adherents.com]
Posted by leftofcenter at 12/17/2005 @ 11:49pm
Hey, Rio, Todd, etc.
I live in the United Arab Emirates (check your atlas), a U.S.-friendly Muslim country with a definitively non-democratic system. About four weeks ago during the holy month of Ramadan, I wasn't allowed to eat or drink in public. That really sucked.
But now, all those same people that I may have offended by eating and drinking in public are forced to listen to Christmas music while they shop in the malls and supermarkets. They have to look at goofy decorations of plastic holy wreaths and blinking minilamps. They have to put up with gaudy Christmas displays--loaudly proclaiming "Christmas!"-- blocking the isles of the supermarket. Heck, even some of the foreign-owned chains and private schools are closed on the 25th! If you're so upset in America, why not just get out? Hey, come over here.
In any case, it works both ways. If a store chooses to put up holiday signs or Christamas signs or Ramadan signs, who cares? If you don't like it, take your business elsewhere, as Todd has done. (Feel free to tell the clerks -- though from personal experience on the receiving-end, they will probably just throw your email address behind the first aisle cap). I am most certainly happy that we are NOT FORCED to recognized Christmas in publically-owned, tax supported institutions as one is forced to recognized Ramadan here.
Posted by Litz at 12/18/2005 @ 06:01am
Only five ranting days till Christmas!
Posted by audiojoebob at 12/18/2005 @ 09:30am
sicup,
"Yes, I am saying you can't be a christian AND support the death penalty. What bible are you reading?"
The one that says in John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, so that who so ever believes in him shall have eternal life" There in no addendum on there that says "AND does does not support the death penalty"
My bible also says in John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one get's to the father but through me" there is no addendum here either that says "and to get to the father, one must NOT support the death penalty"
What bible are you reading?
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/18/2005 @ 09:43am
Litz,
"I am most certainly happy that we are NOT FORCED to recognized Christmas in publicly-owned, tax supported institutions as one is forced to recognized Ramadan here. "
Oh I don't think people should be "forced" Christmas by the government. I was merely making a point that the "political correctness" police has run amuck with the whole change from "happy holidays" from "Merry Christmas".
Let businesses do what they want to do, but they must not be surprised if a certain percentage of their clientele, like me, get sick of the political correct crap and find another store that still is willing to proclaim the reason for the season and one that proudly says Merry Christmas, regardless of whether they may offending Muslims or atheists!
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/18/2005 @ 09:50am
I still don't understand why it makes a difference. As long as Christians celebrate and observe their holiday, what difference does it make if nobody else does?
Posted by Legba at 12/18/2005 @ 11:14am
I mean, all we ever hear about is the looming defeat and collapse of all "ultra left secular humanist liberal left marxist socialist subversive anti-american ideas" here, this vast majority of the public that supports the Christian ideal. If that's the case, then how could Christmas be persecuted or "warred on"?
Posted by Legba at 12/18/2005 @ 11:29am
Todd
So your bible supports state sponsored murder?
Posted by sicupandfed at 12/18/2005 @ 11:36am
Sicupandfed,
No, however my bible doesn't factor into salvation one's support or lack thereof with regards to state sponsored execution.
One can be saved.. and still be pro-death penalty.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 12/18/2005 @ 1:50pm
So where does that square with the notion Christ had that people should turn the other cheek when they are transgressed against?
Posted by Legba at 12/18/2005 @ 2:52pm
SICUPANDFED,
You need to learn not to encourage Todd. He has an avowed interest (and has admitted to it) to be as disruptive and obnoxious as possible just to laugh at those of us with all our chomosomes and a functioning, rational brain. If he was serious, I could respond to his insistence that Jesus and the death penalty do not go together, but he already knows that. Because he's a devout Christian (his pro-death penalty, pro war, pro discrimination against anybody different, anti-tolerance attitude notwithstanding) he already knows: Thou shalt not kill; love your enemy; turn the other cheek; he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword; blessed are the meek; those without sin cast the first stone; what you do to the least of men you do unto me. Did I miss anything Todd?
LOL
And have a very Merry Christmas - even you Todd, you misanthropic bastard! :-<> )
Posted by Turk33 at 12/18/2005 @ 10:28pm
Todd,
Let businesses do what they want to do, but they must not be surprised if a certain percentage of their clientele, like me, get sick of the political correct crap and find another store
Agreed. So you shop at the Christian stores, I'll shop at the other ones -- many of which are probably even Christian owned but have a greater desire of drawing customers (ie, earning cash) than professing faith. Fine. That's life in a free market economy. May the best human win.
(notice how PC that last statement is, Todd? It's for you)
Posted by Litz at 12/19/2005 @ 06:13am
Katrina: This is the article you should have written, about how Christians are treated in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, China, North Korea and other countries.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/shea200512190809.asp
Posted by RonS at 12/19/2005 @ 12:26pm
There is no reason to believe that O'Reilly started this whole Christmas rumor. How can you even say that? I'd also like to say that I'm sorry that Mrs. vanden Heuvel is probably single and childless, otherwise, why would she bring up such an idiotic point. I am single, and childless, and I would welcome such a gift. To see happiness in my friend and his/her family would be alright with me.
"But despite the hours of attention the rightwing media have devoted to this manufactured crisis, they're unlikely to win. "
Look, lady, this is not win or lose, it can't be. They are trying to tell the public how stupid this whole thing is, and to let the people decide for themselves. You, of course, will force them to think like you, the way you write.
Posted by MONJU at 12/20/2005 @ 12:51am
Five days until the blessed event and wise men and women are engaged in gift giving prep, I'd aver.
I really enjoyed your piece, Love Liberty (LL), and appreciate your personal and, IMO, statistical revelations concerning the "Good Christians" of whom Keirkegard was also strongly skeptical.
The historical Jesus was the first non-violent revolutionary as the great current prophet Jackson Browne reminds us. And for self-termed "pagans" like him, I'd say you're well on your way to a current and greater reward by asking WWJD? What, indeed, would "the rebel Jesus" do today, in this very moment? Something to meditate upon, methinks.
Thank YOU for reading!
Merry Christmas!
Posted by lewwelge at 12/20/2005 @ 10:16am
Good god, what I had to do to access this comment form! In the future, can "you guys" please make this a little easier? I'm a "print subscriber", for Christ's sake! Let me at those right-wingers who think Xmas is in danger. I mean ,when I start hearing "Have a Holly Jolly Christmas!", sung by Burl Ives, even before my birthday (Sept. 25th), it makes me want to puke! The almighty dollar seems to come first, and the commercial interests probably wont rest until Xmas lasts the entire year! Obviously "y'all" can see I'm no big fan of this grossly over-blown holiday, and would like to join Katrina's club of Christmas "haters", and put an end to this (still mostly) year-end madness. Sign me up!
Posted by jtrain at 12/20/2005 @ 10:54am
Like the rest of the left, Katrina Van Den Houvel is either unwilling or incapable of getting it. Equally likely is that she does get it but resorts to intellectual dishonesty, the left's preferred method to furiously resist any concept that she thinks threatens her world view.
That worldview is the cult of secular fundamentalism, of which she is a high priestess. The threat, as she sees it, is Christianity, which has been part of our culture, since this nation's inception.
A majority of our founders were Christian, while a significant number were not. Yet both groups knew something beyond our understanding was necessary to the success of self-government, an experiment with no historical precedent. That something was God. Belief in something greater than themselves, God, the founders surmised would encourage citizens to vote and act responsibly, an essential ingredient of democracy.
Thomas Jefferson and James Madison expressed this view in some of this country's most significant documents. In the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson included the phrase, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights…," with the word, Creator, being a synonym for God. In his "Plan For Government," Madison, the Father of the Constitution, states that "men have certain inherent natural rights, of which they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity," with the word "natural" being a reference to God. In the Federalist Papers (Numbers 37 and 43), Madison, refers to the Almighty's role in the nation's founding. In his Presidential Inaugural speech of 1809, Madison did the same. Building on the Judeo-Christian principles of justice, temperance, frugality and virtue (also from his "Plan For Government"), Madison and his fellow founders produced the best and most successful governmental system the world has ever known, one that allowed free speech and an adversarial press, without which people of all political stripes, including Ms. Vanden Heuvel, could not express their views.
Under this system, our government passed laws to regulate society for the benefit of the public good. It also passed laws, recognizing historical figures, events, and concepts. Among these were President's Day, Martin Luther King Day, Memorial Day, the Fourth of July, Labor Day, and Veteran's Day.
Why did we establish these holidays? We did so because the subject of each holiday was crucial to the founding, protection, and development of our democracy. We would literally not exist as we do today without the people and issues we commemorate. Thus, holidays serve to remind us that our freedoms and economic prosperity came about though ideals and sacrifice and are, therefore, not to be taken for granted. For if we ever did so, the value we place in democracy, its basic principles, and our involvement in it, would likely diminish to the detriment of all.
It is for this reason, among many, that Christmas must remain one of our most important and recognized of holidays. Signed into law by President Ulysses S. Grant, its designation was not to commemorate Christianity but the Judeo-Christian philosophy that formed the basis of our constitutional law. So, since we need to commemorate people and concepts without which our country would not exist, we must commemorate that which is basic to them all: the Judeo-Christian principles, which form the basis for our democracy.
That is why Katrina's article, "The War Against Christmas," is like a wet sponge that literally drips hypocritical cynicism and intellectual dishonesty. It is cynical, because like most far leftists, Vanden Heuvel attacks anything that smacks of conservatism, even if doing so eventually erodes the liberties that allows publications, like The Nation, to print its views, no matter how willfully misinformed, misguided, dishonest, and wrong they may be. It is intellectually dishonest, because efforts to expunge Christmas from the public square are legion, being well documented in John Gibson's book that Vanden Heuvel mocks. Not only are these example numerous but they're being carried out by the very people, who she counts as allies and who swallow her propaganda whole. For instance, among Mr. Gibson's examples are,
1. State government workers in Illinois being forbidden from saying the words "Merry Christmas" while at work;
2. Local officials in Rhode Island banning Christians from participating in a public project to decorate the lawn of City Hall;
3. A New Jersey school banning even instrumental versions of traditional Christmas carols; and
4. Arizona school officials ruling as unconstitutional a student making any reference to the religious history of Christmas in a class project; and
5. Let's not forget major department stores forbidding any reference to Christmas in response to the political blackmail threatened by Ms. Vanden Heuvel and her fellow travelers.
To which, Ms. Vanden Heuvel feebly responds with an unsubstantiated rant. I'll provide the feeble response without the rant:
"Not since Iraqi WMD has there been a bogus news story more loved by the conservative media than the quote-unquote "War against Christmas." So complete is their martyrdom-like passion for this myth that you'd think we lived in a time when Christians were regularly being fed to Coliseum lions. Therefore, while I rather like the holiday myself, as editor of The Nation I feel duty bound to provide their empty, bloviated rhetoric with some ammo."
Ironically, she does provide some ammo: More reasons why it is imperative for Americans to fight the left's efforts to intimidate society into eradicating Christmas and its principles from the public square!
Posted by skeetjr at 12/21/2005 @ 02:58am
The truth is that some things are better left ignored. The War Against Christmas is a good case in point. Responding (or even mentioning) it simply once again allows the Right to set the agenda and the Left to respond. It's all meaningless since neither side is listening to the other anyway. And it's such a ridiculous issue. How do you know which things are better left ignored? Well, a good rule of thumb is that if it attracts the attention of Michelle Malkin or her husband or her recently widowed daughter, it's probably a good idea to stay far, far away.
Posted by jerrywrite at 12/21/2005 @ 2:23pm
SKEETJR, we're suppose to be talking about why so many people don't really feel like celebrating Xmas anymore, because it has pretty much lost its original meaning. Then right-wingers, such as yourself, accuse the left of trying to ban Xmas. That's poppycock! But thanks to people like you implying we have the power to do so. That's quite complimentary! We are not talking about the editor's over-all world view (as if you had any idea what she, or the rest of us lefties really think.) But, for the nonce, why don't you PLEASE try to stick to the topic at hand, rather than going on and on about things totally irrelevant to this, supposedly, "peace mongering" holiday? Can you do that? Remember the little engine that could: "I think I can, I think I can!" Thank you.
Posted by jtrain at 12/21/2005 @ 2:30pm