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RedditDid you see the story about how Obama dined Tuesday evening with a passel of conservative and neocon columnists/pundits including George Will, Bill Kristol, Charles Krauthammer and David Brooks? To be honest, I care more about the trajectory of this incoming Administration's policies than I do about Obama's selection of dining partners. But, still, I have to ask: Will Obama find the time to dine with progressive or center-left writers, thinkers, activists in this period--or does he have just enough time to leave his family to break bread with conservative columnists? Couldn't he, at least, have tried that Team Of Rivals template to add some spice and sizzle and diversity of views to that dining table at George Will's place?
I'm keeping hope alive that --as his campaign reminded us: Yes, he can!
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Katrina vanden Heuvel
Thoughts on politics, current affairs, riffs and reflections on what’s in the news and what’s not--but should be.
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Has he dined with a comparable gaggle of progressive writers to date? I think you already have your answer. Obama still thinks he's running the Harvard Law Review. And you endorsed him when any number of people could have told you he was heading in this direction. You and the Glenn Greenwald's of this world are getting exactly what you supported and deserve.
Posted by john lowell at 01/14/2009 @ 12:25am
Obama understands that he will get most of the flack during his inauguration from the right, not the left, and he is honestly trying to give the sense that he is the president of the entire country - not just the left.
That said, I do hope he finds the time to dine with progressive thinkers during the inauguration and beyond. I think it is important to establish a certain level of trust with the left that he will deliver on the change that he promised, and constant communication with progressive writers and thinkers will go along way toward accomplishing this goal.
YES HE CAN!
Posted by Metteyya at 01/14/2009 @ 12:33am
damn straight, john lowell. the likelihood of real change emanating from this incoming Administration is about equivalent to my fart being felt on the other side of the world. obama was a great panacea proffered to the great unwashed by an elite that senses a revolution, of the mind, that has arrived. consumerism.meat.our children. our lives are ours, and we see what you're doing; blindly mining the last of fossil fuels, purposely thieving and bankrupting our economic system, eliminating choice, civil liberties and instead filtering pablum to keep the ignorant entrenched in archaic cultural, religious warfare the world over. the human race has well spiraled past the point of salvation and our children are the last... period. Abigail? my precious daughter? Sadly, tragically, The Last Calandra.
Posted by calandra_speaksout at 01/14/2009 @ 12:41am
I think someone just wants dinner with the President.... :D
Posted by Thrawn at 01/14/2009 @ 01:32am
It's not whether he knows the Left's views or not, it's whether he's willing to listen to them actually express their own views rather than relying on some flunky's summary, or worse, the media's take on that.
Don't hold your breath, KVH... I'm not real hopeful we'll ever really have his ear. Look, if Jimmy Carter couldn't even get time behind the mic during the Convention because of his views on the Israeli-Palestinian problem (and he's conservative), why does anyone on the Left think the Democratic Party represents them or gives a damn what the Left thinks?
Posted by CitizenPain at 01/14/2009 @ 04:53am
Katrina,
Great post and speculation.
Perhaps you (or any other progressive columnist for that matter) can give Barack a call --like David Brooks bragged about several months back in one of his NY Times columns-- and chat him up about a few key topics.
I'd love to hear about the conversation in a future write up.
How about it progressive columnists out there?
Posted by b_kool_66 at 01/14/2009 @ 04:57am
At least Obama was able to replace George W. Bush. That has to be worth something. I don't expect a lot else.
Actually, never did.
Don Polly Portland, Ore.
Posted by donpolly at 01/14/2009 @ 06:03am
Sup with progressives? Why risk indigestion with the indigent?
Money speaks far louder than words. Just look at most of Obama's appointments & therein lies our future.
Continued dark.
We the People have been shnookered yet again.
Posted by sloper at 01/14/2009 @ 06:17am
Like his model Bill Clinton, Obama treats liberal/progressives as if they have leprosy.(After the election.) He refuses to be seen in public with one. He seems afraid that he might be accused of entertaining a puff of a progressive idea. He spends every moment asskissing with conservatives. But don't you worry: in four years, he will get friendly in time for his re-election campaign. (I am so glad I voted for Nader.)
Posted by philbq at 01/14/2009 @ 06:58am
Today, the top official of the Bush Administration in charge of prosecuting one of the 9/11 perpetrators acknowleged openly that that person had been tortured, that the torture had been authorized, and this excuse we have for a leader abjures prosecution of those responsible? That is truly amazing. Either he changes his attitude toward this question or he needs to be prosecuted himself. All the "yes we can" in the world, all the staging, and the Lincoln inaugural imagery, will not make up for the moral wrong that torturing this one individual constitutes. To fail to seek justice for this man is a failure to seek justice to every person ever tortured in every age, the Americans and Philipinos tortured by the Japanese military and the resistance figures fighting fascism throughout Europe during WWII. Obama, bring these people to justice or, please, never make you terribly soft, amoral face available for public viewing ever again.
Posted by john lowell at 01/14/2009 @ 07:42am
What is wrong with Obama meeting up with these guys, he wanted to be inclusive of all people? Does he only have to work/speak to his own party's side, I don't think so? All this earth breaking news on something as simple as having dinner with the some conservatives is so dumb. Give the man some credit for at least showing how open he is to hearing other views.
Posted by Caj at 01/14/2009 @ 07:59am
acknowleged openly that that person had been tortured Posted by john lowell at 01/14/2009 @ 07:42am
Tortured? How? What method(s)? When? Who was tortured? Who was this so-called victim as related to terrorism? What was his job? Where did this alleged torture take place?
Your accusations leave much to be desired.
Posted by fram at 01/14/2009 @ 08:19am
jeez.
still not yet in office and this...
i expect the hard core right to second guess any and all obama does. i also expect the hard prog left to do so, since neither will get all they want from him.
change? jeez... how soon and how far do we really expect, and if you don't get everything you want right away is it then all a big sellout and excuse to carp about how effed up everything is?
if obama is going to look at talking with hamas, iran, other overseas enemies, is he not expected to speak with domestic opponents?
to hard core progs...sure, keep the pressure on, but in the immortal words of butthead...
settle down, beavis!
to the hard core righties...
whatever. snipe all you want. its your lies and bullshit ideology that got us in this mess to begin with and i expect nothing different regardless of external reality to spew forth from you guys. do your lying bullshit duty and be thankful that unlike your spiteful, petty heroes this guy (obama) actually really appears to want to work with and listen to you and include you in the solution...whether you agree or not.
better deal than you bastards gave us. but then i guess many of you have a hard time believing an olive branch offered is naught more than a ploy or hollow gesture. thats the way they operate and i suppose they impute their methodology on all others...
oh well...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 01/14/2009 @ 08:53am
He is much smarter than anyone gave him credit for including me!----Posted by comanchenation at 01/14/2009 @ 12:56am
Yep, gotta save that one. Cuz it won't last.
BTW, to all the carping pure progressives...a question-
Remember when the Right was giving Obama flack for saying he would "meet with Ahmadinejad with no pre-conditions"...and you (most of you I hope) were saying "We need to talk with not just our friends, but our enemies as well...instead of just being bellicose and threatening"?
Remember that? Yes, you too, Ms vanden Heuvel...
So, when Obama meets with Kristol, Krauthammer, Will....why not the same standard???
Posted by Mask at 01/14/2009 @ 08:58am
Is there some question Katrina about whether PE Obama knows what the left's views and goals are? Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/14/2009 @ 01:54am
Chalk this up as a day of miracle. I agree with LVL. Obama knows what the progressive and left views of things are. He is doing what he said he would do in his campaign. He is listening to the opposite views of his own. I don't know why this is such a problem to liberals. On top of that, WHO CARES WHO HE IS HAVING DINNER WITH. He is coming into a economy in shambles, 3 wars he has to deal with, more wars he has to help to try to avoid and a health care system that's falling to pieces and YOU are worried about his dining partners? I would be worried about his policies.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/14/2009 @ 09:02am
We the People have been shnookered yet again. Posted by sloper at 01/14/2009 @ 06:17am
You haven't even seen him in action yet and already you are passing judgement. Maybe you should wait and see what happens instead of sitting back and throwing out currently useless opinion.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/14/2009 @ 09:05am
"Will Obama Find Time to Dine with Progressive Thinkers & Writers "
He will be stuck with them on a daily basis during his term..imagine the pain in the ass bitchy voice of Pelosi, Waters and company screeching in his face with demands, then add KVH voice at a menopuasal strain...only to face limp voiced Reid...
Lunch with Arianne H will generate nothing but a stomache acid burn impossible to put out...
He already knows what the progressives want..a total collectivist govt run society unionised and no one allowed to make more than his neighbor.
He will learn nothing from a lunch with "Progressives" except to lose his desire for food. Why put himnself in that position?
Posted by YourJomamma at 01/14/2009 @ 09:38am
The David Souter/Forrest Gump problem. Some times you really don't know what you're going to get.
Posted by Mistral at 01/14/2009 @ 10:04am
lvliberty1 at 01/14/2009 @ 01:54am -- and -- ccomfo1 at 01/14/2009 @ 09:02am...
Bingo!
How do you compromise if you don't converse? How do you convey... if you don't rehearse?
Eight years of bi-polar 'deciding' has had quite the detrimental effect on our national discourse, hasn't it?
And from this context, we wonder why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict just festers...
It ain't the teams... the sides... the trenches... for these are indicative of the mindset that keeps us frozen in perpetual conflict.
There isn't anyone we can't talk to... because our convictions are based in the common good and the simple truth that we are all in this together.
Authoritarianism thrives on a constant diet of bi-polar assumptions and one-sided perspectives.
Posted by ttr at 01/14/2009 @ 10:06am
Wow, KVH is bitching about not being invited to dinner. KVH, do you really think that after two years of having progressives "all up in his grill", he doesn't know what ya'll want? Please, I agree with CCC and ttr. Next!
Posted by k330k at 01/14/2009 @ 10:31am
Posted by fram at 01/14/2009 @ 08:19am
Here's the link, chief:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28649218/
Posted by john lowell at 01/14/2009 @ 10:43am
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/14/2009 @ 09:05am
Far Left and Far Right have found an alliance, with sloper types and comanche/RIO types now BOTH telling us how "Obama is a failure", before he's even sworn into office!
Posted by Mask at 01/14/2009 @ 10:50am
Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?
Posted by HAPPYLonghorn at 01/14/2009 @ 11:32am |
Hillary....
Posted by YourJomamma at 01/14/2009 @ 11:48am
You haven't even seen him in action yet and already you are passing judgement. CCOMF
But we have seen him in action, very much so, his appointments are many & telling. In the key slots, we have the same people who supported the Iraq invasion & occupation, the abolition of Glass-Steagall, the opaque bailouts.
Who believes that on Jan.21 they will all undergo metamorphosis?
They will continue to shnooker US as they've been doing all along.
Same old ...
Posted by sloper at 01/14/2009 @ 11:55am
Posted by john lowell at 01/14/2009 @ 10:43am
Yeah, I read it. The story is still full of holes. "The techniques that were used were all authorized".
I'm sorry but being strip searched, having a bra and a thong draped over my head, and insults about my sister and mother DO NOT constitute torture.
Posted by fram at 01/14/2009 @ 11:56am
Posted by fram at 01/14/2009 @ 11:56am
You'll have top CIA and military officers and officials come out and say "Yes, we tortured suspects"...
and guys like fram will still deny it.
It's an article of faith now.
Posted by Mask at 01/14/2009 @ 12:21pm
He dined across twenty years with the likes of Jeremiah Wright and Edward Said. Rashid Khalidi came over to his house to eat, and he ate at Bill Ayers' home in shirtsleeves.
A pre inauguration meal, where he soaps the conservative pondocracy should not be a serious worry. I'll bet KVH will be invited to the White House plenty of times to dine with fellow heavy thinkers of the Left, like Andy Stern, Al Sharpton, Frank Rich, Joe Kline, etc.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 01/14/2009 @ 12:26pm
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 01/14/2009 @ 12:26pm
So now we can call Will, Kristol, and Krauthammer part of...
"Obama's radical associations"?
LOL
Posted by Mask at 01/14/2009 @ 12:43pm
Cccomfo1,
You asked "On top of that, WHO CARES WHO HE IS HAVING DINNER WITH."
Other than the White House chef, there is no reason anybody should.
Posted by sjchermak at 01/14/2009 @ 1:31pm
Posted by fram at 01/14/2009 @ 11:56am
"Yeah, I read it. The story is still full of holes. 'The techniques that were used were all authorized'."
Well, that's the problem now isn't it, that these practices were authorized.
And as to "holes", you'll find a huge one in your rather selective reading of the piece. You missed the claim that "at one point he was threatened with a military working dog named Zeus", which is a specific violation of the Geneva Conventions, a protocol which applies in this situation whether Bush/Cheney think so or not. Yet even by their own conveniently manufactured legal standards, they went too far. Here's more from the article that fell into one of your holes:
"The interrogation, portions of which have been previously described by other news organizations, including The Washington Post, was so intense that Qahtani had to be hospitalized twice at Guantanamo with bradycardia, a condition in which the heart rate falls below 60 beats a minute and which in extreme cases can lead to heart failure and death. At one point Qahtani's heart rate dropped to 35 beats per minute, the record shows."
And, in the prosecutors own words:
"You think of torture, you think of some horrendous physical act done to an individual. This was not any one particular act; this was just a combination of things that had a medical impact on him, that hurt his health. It was abusive and uncalled for. And coercive. Clearly coercive. It was that medical impact that pushed me over the edge" to call it torture, she said."
The whole basis behind this kind of treatment is no different in kind than that which Adolf Hitler used when he issued the famous "Commissar Order" before his invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. And we see no contrition from Hermann Goering sound alike, Dick Cheney, who ought to be tried under both US and international standards.
Posted by john lowell at 01/14/2009 @ 3:26pm
Those are not torture in my opinion.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/14/2009 @ 2:29pm
well, let's put you in the dark for 3 months with a little death metal to "listen" to......
so, when you say you are against torture, you are lying.
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/14/2009 @ 4:11pm
sure thing, larry.
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/14/2009 @ 5:33pm
Just as I've said, I don't approve of the use of waterboarding. However, I went through being waterboarded as part of my military training. It is a horrible experience. But I had no lasting trauma from it. It was just another test. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/14/2009 @ 2:29pm
Little different being water-boarded in training than being captured, water-boarded, sleep deprived, sun light deprived and so on and not knowing if you are going to be executed. Not to say it isn't a horrible experience in training also but I could see if leaving some lasting scars in the being captured instance.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/14/2009 @ 6:21pm
Some of the things I and many others had to do during our service while not under the added duress of capture had tests of our wills that only those who have experienced them will ever understand. Add to them the known fact of someone wanting to kill you at the same time and the stress level is beyond what I think you can imagine. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/14/2009 @ 6:32pm
I don't claim to understand because like I have said before, I have no been through it. But you can not claim to have been through what someone who is tortured for months or even years. Therefore you cannot claim to understand what they are going through just as much as I can not claim to understand what you have been through. Unless you have been held in a prison camp and tortured for months at a time while waiting to be executed then your opinion is as invalid as mine is.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/14/2009 @ 6:58pm
let's send larry for a year in gitmo!
then he can gives us a full report.
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/14/2009 @ 10:08pm
Sorry, Katrina, I'll let Obama be the better judge of the company he keeps.
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 01/15/2009 @ 1:33pm
Your lead in here states "The President-Elect has lousy taste in dining partners. "
As evidently many here have the same taste in blog authors.
You might try going outside of your limited circle of like minded pundits. You might actually learn something.
I did not vote for Obama, but I am encouraged that he takes a different path than what you propose. Maybe there is hope for his Presidency yet.
At least he is making the attempt.
Posted by Biggeorge at 01/16/2009 @ 08:21am