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RedditThis statement was issued in response to Israel's attack in Gaza by Professor Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories and a longtime member of the Nation editorial board.
27 December 2008
The Israeli airstrikes on the Gaza Strip represent severe and massive violations of international humanitarian law as defined in the Geneva Conventions, both in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.
Those violations include:
Collective punishment – the entire 1.5 million people who live in the crowded Gaza Strip are being punished for the actions of a few militants.
Targeting civilians – the airstrikes were aimed at civilian areas in one of the most crowded stretches of land in the world, certainly the most densely populated area of the Middle East.
Disproportionate military response – the airstrikes have not only destroyed every police and security office of Gaza's elected government, but have killed and injured hundreds of civilians; at least one strike reportedly hit groups of students attempting to find transportation home from the university.
Earlier Israeli actions, specifically the complete sealing off of entry and exit to and from the Gaza Strip, have led to severe shortages of medicine and fuel (as well as food), resulting in the inability of ambulances to respond to the injured, the inability of hospitals to adequately provide medicine or necessary equipment for the injured, and the inability of Gaza's besieged doctors and other medical workers to sufficiently treat the victims.
Certainly the rocket attacks against civilian targets in Israel are unlawful. But that illegality does not give rise to any Israeli right, neither as the Occupying Power nor as a sovereign state, to violate international humanitarian law and commit war crimes or crimes against humanity in its response. I note that Israel's escalating military assaults have not made Israeli civilians safer; to the contrary, the one Israeli killed today after the upsurge of Israeli violence is the first in over a year.
Israel has also ignored recent Hamas' diplomatic initiatives to reestablish the truce or ceasefire since its expiration on 26 December.
The Israeli airstrikes today, and the catastrophic human toll that they caused, challenge those countries that have been and remain complicit, either directly or indirectly, in Israel's violations of international law. That complicity includes those countries knowingly providing the military equipment including warplanes and missiles used in these illegal attacks, as well as those countries who have supported and participated in the siege of Gaza that itself has caused a humanitarian catastrophe.
I remind all member states of the United Nations that the UN continues to be bound to an independent obligation to protect any civilian population facing massive violations of international humanitarian law – regardless of what country may be responsible for those violations. I call on all Member States, as well as officials and every relevant organ of the United Nations system, to move on an emergency basis not only to condemn Israel's serious violations, but to develop new approaches to providing real protection for the Palestinian people.
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Katrina vanden Heuvel
Thoughts on politics, current affairs, riffs and reflections on what’s in the news and what’s not--but should be.
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HALLELUJAH!!!
Finally someone else can see that the Israeli's are breaking the rules of the Geneva Convention. That has been my argument all along about this conflict....Israel think they can do whatever they like and ANY laws do not apply to them. Where are we in condemning these attacks, we stay silent as we always do and condone the attacks the Israeli's make on Palestine. Time is long overdue for Israel to be taken to task for their actions, they have got away with them for far too long and international action should be taken against them.
Posted by Caj at 12/28/2008 @ 9:29pm
Richard Falk, the UN Rapporteur, wants to find a way to protect the Palestinian people.
I have some novel ideas, for some reason never before tried:
How about if the Palestinian people, and the rest of the Arabic and Islamic world (including the president of Iran) give up on their dream of no Israel?
How about if "representatives" of these groups stop killing Israelis?
How about if these groups stop their maniacal hatred of the Jewish people?
How about if many others in the world, including James Earl Carter here in the U.S., stop the virulent anti-Semetism?
How about if these people start to understand that the area that is Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people, and that they have a right to be there?
How about if these people recognize that the area Israel takes up consists of only a small portion of land in comparison to the total amount in possession of Arabic and Islamic people, and that Israeli possession of this land (only 9 miles wide at one point for Israel "proper") in no way denies Arabs or Palestinians anything?
How about if these people understand that the so-called suffering of or oppression upon the Palestinian people has come about only because of their actions over the years, which has included no compromise on the dream of no Israel, and has included no meaningful compromise or effort whatever towards peace?
How about if these people stop blaming Israel and demanding Israeli concessions which only result each and every time in more Israeli death and life under siege?
How about if these people, including the UN Rapporteur, start to understand who is to blame for the mess in the Middle East and place blame where blame belongs?
That will have to be done before there is any hope of peace.
Posted by sjchermak at 12/28/2008 @ 9:35pm
How about if these people start to understand that the area that is Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people, and that they have a right to be there?
Posted by sjchermak at 12/28/2008 @ 9:35pm
The Israeli's don't have sole ownership to that land and that is what they think. Where do you get this nonsense about Israeli death and life under siege!!!! They are the ones who are breaking the LAW here, don't you get it???? Why are you so oblivious to the fact that the Geneva Convention is there for a reason and no country is above the law and that believe it or not includes Israel.
Posted by Caj at 12/28/2008 @ 9:54pm
Just go and read some of the user comments on NYPOST.COM web-site regarding this conflict and once can realize what kind of world we live in...People are literally enjoying the destruction, murder etc of the Palestinians...If Hamas is to be blamed what did the children and women do...If Dirty Hamas is using them as shield then why don't the Good Israelis take the higher ground and save them...This is the kind of world we live in where deaths hailed.....
Posted by freenation at 12/28/2008 @ 10:23pm
Israel is an Occupying Force, yes.
One must understand that the Israelis are not and have never been the 'underdog' in this conflict. They are the overbearing force with delusions of grandeur and put on display their power with vulgarity.
You must remember 'HAPPYLonghorn.' A human body and mind can only take so much abuse, whether it be starvation and illness, isolation, dehumanization, punishment or death.
Posted by joebdot at 12/28/2008 @ 10:29pm
That will have to be done before there is any hope of peace.
Posted by sjchermak
Even if your twisted logic is followed, your pals in SHAS party will still invent some new fairy tale to break the peace...
Don't try to white-wash the tragedies of common people...both sides have EQUAL number of demons, there are no SAINTS on either side...
Posted by freenation at 12/28/2008 @ 10:30pm
I do hope PE Obama will take a different stance on this conflict and stop this constant backing of Israel. I fear he may have the same notion that we have to stand with Israel regardless, I hope he can see beyond that as we definitely need a new direction as far as that conflict goes if we can ever gain any confidence in us being "honest brokers" here. We are seen as Israel's puppet and that does not go down well in that region at all...time for that to change, I feel we have been too passive with Israel, time for a stronger approach toward their actions.
Posted by Caj at 12/28/2008 @ 10:33pm
Placing aside my own huge moral revulsion at what the Israelis are doing - they are in essence now bombing defenseless, crushingly impoverished people whom they have imprisoned in a strip of land, and deprived of basic economic sustenance - if those people wanted to have a stable or peaceful outcome of the crisis involving Hamas and Gaza, the Israeli regime has guaranteed years of war. Hamas is only in power in Gaza because Hamas provides basic humanitarian care for the miserable people in that open-air prison camp, and Gazans and Hamas, already backed into a corner by crushing Israeli sanctions, will only have one option, which is to fight.
Moving forward, we can never forget, never forget what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians.
Posted by syfriendly at 12/28/2008 @ 10:34pm
Caj,
In 1948 an attempt was made to establish a Palestinian state and an Israeli state, side by side and in peace.
This was acceptable to the Jewish people.
This was totally rejected by the Arab world.
People of different ancestry have lived in that area back to Biblical times, most definitely and significantly including the Jewish people.
There is no justification whatsoever that the Palestinian state and Jewish state could not have been established in peace.
It is not Israel's fault that it was not.
If the Arabic/Palestinian people just had issues with the proposed implementation, but not the concept, then why didn't they try through negotiations to achieve something acceptable to them?
The answer is they want no Israel, period. And have never given up on that goal. You are either blind to it or maybe you agree with that concept yourself.
You say "Israel doesn't have sole ownership to that land"... I have seen comments, including on The Nation blogs, that the Arabic and Palestinian people think that land is totally theirs. They have said the Jews are free to go to Canada if they want, but don't belong in the Middle East.
Israel has a right to be where it is. You cite "LAW"--- how come there are never any "Laws" that make it illegal to kill Jewish people?
You call my comment about Israeli death and life under siege "nonsense" --- actually it is the history of what Israel has to contend with from 1948 until today.
HOW COME NO PEACE TOOK PLACE WHEN ISRAEL GAVE UP GAZA?
Israel is told that is what is needed to have peace, then Israel makes the concessions, then Israels continue to be killed.
That cycle needs to stop. Blame needs to be placed where it belongs - on the Arabs and Palestinians -
Posted by sjchermak at 12/28/2008 @ 10:35pm
Apparently Mr. Obama has, incidentally, expressed his tacit support of what the Israelis are doing. Sadly, we can expect no "change" once he is inaugurated.
Posted by syfriendly at 12/28/2008 @ 10:36pm
*How about if these people, including the UN Rapporteur, start to understand who is to blame for the mess in the Middle East and place blame where blame belongs?*
Both sides, and it will only get worse. I have this huge terror in my heart that Israel will resort to what they consider their only solution, the one that they themselves at one time were subjected to: genocide. A massive pogrom of the native Arabs there (Palestinian is an arificial creation) that will be a blood bath unless we get a sense of moral courage and say this has to stop NOW. Israel needs to stop its dream of ever owning Eretz Israel and the US needs to stop encouraging them by basically doing nothing. And the native Arabs need to recoginize that Israel is not going anywhere ever. Both sides will continute their reckless destructive behavior as long as they can continue to gain political advantage. If the native Arabs knew just how much they have been used by other Arab and Muslim governments as political tools they would be outraged. It is possible they simply do not care. But the easiest way to stop being a pawn is to figure out you are one.
Posted by yutsano at 12/28/2008 @ 10:36pm
Posted by sjchermak at 12/28/2008 @ 10:35pm | ignore this person | warn this person
The Hamas rocket attacks being used as a pretext for this latest Israeli atrocity didn't kill anyone. The Israelis, on the contrary, have killed hundreds of people in 24 hours. This is a grotesque act of state terrorism. If Israeli had engaged in a proportional use of force against Hamas, Israel would have been limited to bombing a few empty buildings, which is all that Hamas had accomplished.
And what Hamas to do but launch rockets? Israel had engaged crushing sanctions against the people of Gaza, because Israel wanted Hamas to cave in and collapse. Given that *that* gross act of collective punishment failed, Israel, has decided instead to drop hundreds of tons of bombs onto one of the most suffering populations in the world, a population it has literally imprisoned.
We can never forget what Israel has done to the Palestinians.
Posted by syfriendly at 12/28/2008 @ 10:42pm
That cycle needs to stop. Blame needs to be placed where it belongs - on the Arabs and Palestinians -
Posted by sjchermak
Thank you for enlightening us with your knowledge. How can you even sleep in night after writing/believing in such bullshit....if Hamas is bad then according to you it is justified to slaughter innocent women/children etc...if Hamas applies same logic to Israelis they are terrorist organization....what does it make Israelis and people like you who are cheering deaths of innocents...
Learn to be FAIR and STOP with your bull-shit..this is internet age..no more MAKE-UP stories please....
Posted by freenation at 12/28/2008 @ 10:43pm
To continue my comments -- if this UN "Rapporteur" is successful in convincing the UN to make resolutions condemning Israel - and he will be successful because this BS has happened time after time over and over - then Mayor Michael Bloomberg needs to kick the U.N. out of New York City.
That is wishful thinking on my part - that won't happen - but it is what should happen.
This is not a good situation to start with - that some UN "specialist" or "Rapporteur" is also on The Nation editorial board. God Almighty, how did this happen? If this is not an indication that the UN is not an impartial entity dedicated to peace, I do not know what is.
It shows the UN is a very biased organization that has been an impediment to peace.
This whole situation is frightening. Just scroll upward and see the posts blaming Israel... no apparent concern over the continual effort by the Arabic and Palestinian people to make war on Israel since 1948......no recognition that if the Arabic people and Palestinians wanted peace, then why did they not try to set up Gaza as an area where people were living in peace, rather than a staging area to kill Jews?
There is no recognition in the posts above that much of the Arabic world does not provide aid to the Palestinians -- on purpose -- so that they can allow the situation to fester and create angry people with rage against Israel.
The Arabic people know they can count on the anti-Semetism rampant in the world to cause Israel to be blamed for all the problems.
Some world leaders need to step up and call it as it is and identify who is to blame.
In the meantime, I hope there is no pressure on Israel to stop doing what it needs to do to defend it's people.
Posted by sjchermak at 12/28/2008 @ 10:47pm
Posted by sjchermak at 12/28/2008 @ 10:35pm | ignore this person | warn this person
"... In 1948 an attempt was made to establish a Palestinian state and an Israeli state, side by side and in peace ..."
This "attempt" was simply the US and Britain deciding together to "give" land that Britain militarily occupied and controlled, which had a minority Jewish population, to a group of fanatical Jewish Western Europeans who pursued an agenda equivalent to Manifest Destiny.
"... This was acceptable to the Jewish people. This was totally rejected by the Arab world ..."
The "Arab world" was never given any choice in the matter. Their land was basically parceled out to a group of Western European religious fanatics who believed that they had a divine and historical claim to land they had not lived on in any any great numbers in over a millenium. In 1948, the people of the land now called "Israel" were forcefully expelled by a group of foreign invaders engaged in a colonial enterprise of the sort that took place in the 18th century and earlier.
Unsurprisingly, 60 years later, the lands in question are still being fought over.
Posted by syfriendly at 12/28/2008 @ 10:48pm
Posted by sjchermak at 12/28/2008 @ 10:47pm | ignore this person | warn this person
"... It shows the UN is a very biased organization that has been an impediment to peace ..."
How ironic that "Israel" was a creation of the UN, back when the UN was a Western-white-only club. You refer to the 1948 "creation of Israel" by the UN (the destruction of the lives and well-being of most of the people in Palestine, who are refugees to this day) as some sort of attempt to "create peace" and then go on to complain that the UN is an "impediment to peace" now that it actually has member nations who are not white and Western. It's not an "impediment to peace"; it's an impediment to white Western colonial enterprise and imperialism.
Posted by syfriendly at 12/28/2008 @ 10:51pm
Anyone think Dr Falk would have any luck finding the 100 rocket launching sites BEFORE they launch, therefore, ACTUALY helping save Palestinian lives?
Since he is so concerned with the lives of innocents,of course.
Posted by YourJomamma at 12/28/2008 @ 10:51pm
Good Lord, the Israelis even bombed the university in Gaza!
Posted by syfriendly at 12/28/2008 @ 10:52pm
That cycle needs to stop. Blame needs to be placed where it belongs - on the Arabs and Palestinians -
Posted by sjchermak at 12/28/2008 @ 10:35pm
Well, you obviously don't see anything wrong with what the Israeli's do and it's all the Palestinians fault..so anymore discussion with you is pointless. I just wonder how you can use the word "terrorists" to the Palestinian side and not to the Israeli side, when they are causing more death with all their military power!!!! I guess you call it "protecting themselves"!!!!!!!
Posted by Caj at 12/28/2008 @ 10:58pm
There has been no fairness or consideration of both sides ever, in this issue.
We have a long way to go before it would be in any way justifiable to blame Israel for anything, regarding this.
How about starting to hold Palestinian and Arabic leaders and entities and countries accountable for the havoc they have caused since 1948? There are a lot of wrongs on the ledger that these groups have never been held accountable for.
yutsano said "And the native Arabs need to recoginize that Israel is not going anywhere ever"
But they (the Arabs) have never done that, have no intention of doing that, and there seems to be no way to force them to do that.
Everytime peace is discussed, the requirements of what the Palestinians and Arabs have to do as far as stopping terror, recognizing Israel, etc are mentioned, along with condemnation of Israel and demand for Israeli concessions.
But somehow, the condemnation of Israel and the Israeli concessions are the only things that wind up happening. Some kind of peace or truce takes place, and then in short order the terror against Israel begins again.
There is no justifiable reason that anybody from Gaza should be firing rockets into Israel.
They need to be FORCED to stop it, and those Arabic nations who condemn Israel in their hypocritical concern for the Palestinians need to begin aiding the Palestinians and improving their living conditions.
The Arabic world and the Palestinians need to demonstrate through THEIR actions that they are willing to start creating a peaceful Palestine.
They are the ones to blame for the fact there has not been such a thing, and they are the ones to blame for suffering by the Palestinian people.
Posted by sjchermak at 12/28/2008 @ 10:58pm
syfriendly,
A lot of the "refugees" were encouraged to leave by other Arabic entities and these "refugees" have never been aided by the Arabic entities - on purpose - to keep the situation festering.
And you of course do not mention Jewish refugees who had to flee areas that were not to become Israel.
When you use word such as "White Western" and "colonial" and "imperialism" you flag yourself as someone on the far left, way on the far left, who is looking at this whole situation through a distorted prisim.
======================
Another thing for all to think about... for sake of argument, suppose there was no Israel and had never been.... do you think that there would be this concern over the land in the Middle East by the Arabic world or the Palestinian people.......after all, then they would supposedly have their land.... and all this so called "oppression" would I suppose not be occurring...
Or does this "angst" among you that Israel possesses land that many of you claim does not belong to them exist only because the Jews are there to begin with?
In other words, do those over there (Arabs and Palestinians) really want a Palestinian state with happy, contented Palestinian people living in a glorious stable peace.... OR...
Do they simply want no Israel?
ANSWER: They want no Israel. They (the Arabic world) want control of all the land. Most of the Arabic world do not give a flying damn about the Palestinian people or their living conditions.
Posted by sjchermak at 12/28/2008 @ 11:10pm
*They are the ones to blame for the fact there has not been such a thing, and they are the ones to blame for suffering by the Palestinian people.
Posted by sjchermak at 12/28/2008 @ 10:58pm*
I won't deny the fact that many many Arab governments are using the native Arabs (Palestinian is an aritifical construct invented by Arafat in the 1960's) as political tools, but they themselves need to wake up to the fact that they are being used on all sides up to and including the Israelis. I never ever said that those who are choosing the path of violence are totally blameless. But Israel is swatting at flies with sledgehammers. Their response, especially in this latest action, is always asymmetrical. Missiles being fired into fields hurts someone very little if at all (possible property damage that the land owner can't sue the perpetrators for recompense) but to bomb police stations and civilians almost indiscriminately is simply downright criminal and is NEVER justifiable. I believe I made clear that both sides need to wake up and realize that if they don't give up something they could lose it all.
Posted by yutsano at 12/28/2008 @ 11:13pm
yutsano,
To be fair - you are holding both sides to account...
But, there are many people who do not see it that way. I have seen people on blogs here on The Nation, as well as elsewhere in the public domain, who very clearly believe Israel should not exist and never should have existed to begin with.
I have seen the suggestion, as I alluded to before, that if the Jews want to leave the Middle East and go to Canada, that is fine (implying that the author of the comment does not hate Jews), but that they have no business being in the Middle East.
Too many people believe this way, including most of the Arabic and Palestinian people.
There is no modern day Anwar Sadat.
And most of the world agrees with this sentiment, too.
As a result, I have no easy answer and do not claim to have one. But the solution is not to make demands on Israel.
The Israeli people live under the threat of extinction. They need to do what they need to do. Any peace overture in the past has not been reciprocated.
There needs to be a way for the rest of the world to give up it's anti-Semetism and for the Palestinian people to start taking responsibility for themselves to create peace and stop hating Jews.
And for the Arabic world to be made to actually help them build a stable and peaceful existence instead of focusing on killing Jewish people, and refusing to allow a peaceful Jewish state in the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
Blaming Israel and making demands on Israel can no longer be the approach. That is the approach the world and diplomats have tried over and over again.
And it has never worked.
I do not have the answer. Until somebody comes up with one, the Israelis have a right to defend themselves.
It is wrong for some to say they should show restraint.
Posted by sjchermak at 12/28/2008 @ 11:25pm
In the meantime, I hope there is no pressure on Israel to stop doing what it needs to do to defend it's people.
Posted by sjchermak at 12/28/2008 @ 10:47pm
There should not be any pressure put on Palestine either to defend their people....that is the problem here there has never been any pressure put on Israel, they have been given a free pass for far too long.
Posted by Caj at 12/28/2008 @ 11:27pm
There should not be any pressure put on Palestine either to defend their people....that is the problem here there has never been any pressure put on Israel, they have been given a free pass for far too long.
Posted by Caj
Good comment....sjchermak comments are not in touch with reality but more like propaganda machine like Foxnews
Posted by freenation at 12/28/2008 @ 11:51pm
While I will agree with the left on the fact that Israel launching attacks into Palestine is not going to solve their problem I will also agree with the right in that, Israel should not be expected to sit by while Hamas launches rockets into their cities.
It has been said repeatedly that Israels attacks have never slowed down the rocket fire in the past and I don't think it will do it this time, in fact the rocket fire has increased. These two groups want each other dead. Whoever started it, it doesn't matter at this point. Both sides have done everything they could to stand in the way of a lasting peace. If Israel had capitulated and allowed aid into Palestine during the treaty maybe Hamas would have stopped the rocket attacks instead of just slowing them down. Maybe if Hamas stopped the rocket attacks Israel would have let aid in. Either way they are both at fault.
Now it's time to find a viable solution which avoids the loss of precious human lives. Those of you saying Israel is justified because Hamas has attacked their innocent civilians. How is that any better or worse than Israel killing children in their response attacks? War will not stop this because Israel does not have sufficient resources to militarily occupy Palestine and unless they fully and completely occupy it and police it in force they will never stop the attacks.
The peace treaty should be tried again and this time both sides should actually honor their ends of the treaty. There was an effort made the first time around in that rocket attacks were reduced and foreign aid was slightly increased. Imagine what could happen if both sides actually put forth 100% effort instead of 30%
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 12:22am
Posted by sjchermak at 12/28/2008 @ 11:25pm
What a joke. Put pressure on both sides. Hamas needs to stop their rocket attacks. Israel needs to stop the embargo. This will never end if they don't both work together. Israel doesn't have the power to destroy Hamas or even stop their attacks for that matter. So this use of force is quite pointless. I know the right is always quick to say war is the solution but if you don't have enough power to stop the enemy force will only stoke the fire.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 12:26am
Here in the United States, our children are taught that it was necessary to drop nuclear bombs on Japanese civilians in order to save American lives and end WWII. Similarly, many see such an action appropriate because we were attacked in Pearl Harbor. On the other hand, a Palestinian has no right to defend his home which has been looted by persecuted European Jews; and if he does, then he is the terrorist!
For the first time the UN's General Assembly in its 20th session in 1965 recognized "the legitimacy of struggle by the people under colonial rules to exercise their rights to self-determination and independence". Further, the assembly invited "all States to provide material and moral assistance to the national liberation movements in colonial territories."
The specified decision has always applied to the Palestinians and their struggle for freedom. But again, intentional misinterpretation of that law compelled the passing of Resolution 3236, passed by the General Assembly in its 29th session in 1974. The resolution recognised that the collective rights of the Palestinian people were fully and properly recognised. The resolution recognised the Palestinian people's right for self-determination in accordance with the United Nations Charter (which, in retrospect, gives them the same right of self-defence granted to sovereign states). In addition, it granted them the right of national independence, sovereignty and right of return to their homes. The resolution had further replaced the mere reference to Palestinians as "refugees" or "the refugee problem", and made them a "principal party in the establishment of a just and durable peace in the Middle East."
The last 3 days' brutal agression against defenseless Palestinians, to force them to shut up and die without defending themselves, according to mainstream media is "the most intense in the last 60 years."
Almost 65 years after Nazi forces crushed the Warsaw ghetto uprising, decendants of people similar to the brave fighters of Warsaw ghetto are doing to Palestinians worse than what Nazis did to their grandparents.
Do we ever want to wake up and realize that it is our government's financial and military support that makes the ongoing Palestinian Holocaust possible? All of that is done in our name and with our sanction. Then is there a wonder why Arabs (including Christian Arabs) and other Muslims around the world hate us?
Someone, sarcastically said "Hitler must be smiling for training such good proteges."
Posted by examin at 12/29/2008 @ 01:10am
With respect, sir, Americans are in no position to lecture anyone on human rights, international law, or the immorality of war.
Posted by Kuyper at 12/29/2008 @ 01:42am
Kuyper,
Sure we are. I can think of no one better suited. We,the US, are the lid on the pot of the world as it's hates and feuds to the death simmer below.
We are more qualified than any other. Who else would you put in the position of the US if they had our power?
Who would you exchange the position of the U S ......the UN? They are useless.
Posted by YourJomamma at 12/29/2008 @ 02:13am
I'm disgusted by the childish behavior of adult leaders on both sides in this apparently never-ending war. Whatever remains of my empathy is for the innocent children killed and maimed on both sides of the sandbox.
Posted by Garbltoo at 12/29/2008 @ 02:37am
<i>With respect, sir, Americans are in no position to lecture anyone on human rights, international law, or the immorality of war.
Posted by Kuyper at 12/29/2008 @ 01:42am </i>
I think this point falls even if Jomamma is wrong. I just don't believe hypocrisy can be a bar to moral criticism, for two reasons. First, if we took that principle absolutely, no moral criticism could be possible because no one is morally perfect. Second, and more importantly, it's unclear why hypocrisy should be preclusive. True statements are true statements regardless of who is making them. If Adolf Hitler (assuming, against the most fervent aspirations of an eyepatched Tom Cruise, that he was alive) were to yell that genocide and torture are wrong, he'd be a blatant hypocrite but he'd still be right.
Posted by Thrawn at 12/29/2008 @ 02:37am
Christians are hopelessly brainwashed by the jews/israelis, via the bible, and the jews love the exemption to internatinal law the Christian America and the UN give them. How do real jews feel about Christianity? Well, they call Jesus "stick boy". Does that about sum it up?
Posted by NukularProficy at 12/29/2008 @ 02:41am
Posted by YourJomamma at 12/29/2008 @ 02:13am
That's the view of Australia's Centre-Left PM too. Here's what he said earlier this year:
"Rudd's statements in Washington were considered and important. At the Brookings Institution, Rudd declared: "My view of the US's role in international affairs is simple: I believe the US is an overwhelming force for good in the world."
This is a powerful statement culturally as well as politically. Rudd is delegitimising anti-Americanism as a mainstream force in Australia. Rudd is also keeping his promise before the election that the US alliance would be the central pillar of Australian foreign policy.
( from The Australian 3rd April 2008)
Posted by lrjones4 at 12/29/2008 @ 02:45am
The fact is that this conflict will never end, because both sides absolutely love hatred, intolerance and bloody violence. All religious fundamentalists do, it's in their DNA. That includes Christians, Muslims and Jews. Religion is a form of collective insanity.
Posted by NukularProficy at 12/29/2008 @ 02:49am
This whole thing is the consequence of bad ideology. Bad ideas, full of religious rubbish, hatred, racism and revenge, have blinded these humans to their common humanity.
When will we wake up?
Never, if hell-raising mullahs, rabbis and preachers have their way. Never, if the arms industry and its underworld has its way. Never, if the testosterone-driven generals and soldiers have their way. Never, if the politicians who use fear and war to gain power have their way.
There is no essence in things, lands, or texts, other than what we put there with our minds and maintain through social compacts. The possibility of compassion always exists, with every breath.
Posted by mikecope at 12/29/2008 @ 03:24am
The fact is that this conflict will never end, because both sides absolutely love hatred, intolerance and bloody violence. All religious fundamentalists do, it's in their DNA. That includes Christians, Muslims and Jews. Religion is a form of collective insanity.
Posted by NukularProficy at 12/29/2008 @ 02:49am
Bit like the conflict that goes on here between Lefties and Righties. Where violent speech and hate language substitute for physical violence and bloody murder?
And it doesn't even require religion as the many millions brutally tortured and killed by atheistic regimes in Russia and China last century or the many bloody wars throughout history that had no religious motive attest.
That should make the contemplative person wonder about human nature itself instead of arriving at a simplistic answer that forgets the inconvenient data.
Posted by lrjones4 at 12/29/2008 @ 03:44am
What a way to honor the memory of Harold Pinter, a great Jewish man who just passed away.
Posted by WWW at 12/29/2008 @ 04:39am
Harold Pinter was a man of the extreme left and quite vociferously anti-Israeli; some have argued he was clearly anti-Semitic despite his own Jewishness. Whether his art was any more intelligent or nuanced or memorable than his political rhetoric, I am not certain.
Posted by feinfein at 12/29/2008 @ 05:39am
Israel has made it clear that they are the country that has only rights and no obligations. After 60 years of systematic genocide of the Palestinian people, they say that a few fireworks thrown to them are their justification to strike with 60(!) war planes. Israel must give account for its dreadful crimes. Do they really have any special right in the middle eastern territory? Were they the only people that had a presence there in the past? What justified their invasion in Palestine? Do you know that they think of themselves as the only people that have suffered? They even forbid Armenians to speak of the 1915 Holocaust they suffered from Turkey, when its well documented that the Nazis used the Armenian Holocaust as a model for what they did to the Jewish people (and other people too). A Nurenberg for Israel is sure.
Posted by sokratis at 12/29/2008 @ 06:16am
Where was katrinas selective outrage when Hamas reigned down hundred of rockets on innocent isrealis in their towns, and on their schools ? where was katrinas outrage when Israel offered the Palestinians ALL that they wanted in 1999, in the form of their OWN country, HALF of Jerusalem, and a lot more ? the answer is, the CORE of this problem is the lefts REFUSAL to see the core of this , and that is Hamas and the radicalized Palastinians REFUSE Israels right to exits, and are commited to attack it at any time. Israel has reached out, and created peace with ALL and ANY arab nation that wants it , Jordan, Egypt, and the Palestinians ?> they DONT want it, and the left DOES NOT get this, and Katrina is another igrnoant leftists who views this thru her narrow lens. I myself am on the far far left as well, but in general , IGNORANCE GRIPS the left on this issue, and Katrina is a perfect example of non thinking on this issue.
Posted by lokeys at 12/29/2008 @ 06:27am
Whatever remains of my empathy is for the innocent children killed and maimed on both sides of the sandbox.
Posted by Garbltoo at 12/29/2008 @ 02:37am
Including those children (and women) whom have been indoctrinated to strap bombs on themselves in order to blow up themselves and innocent Israelis?
Posted by fram at 12/29/2008 @ 07:01am
Including those children (and women) whom have been indoctrinated to strap bombs on themselves in order to blow up themselves and innocent Israelis? Posted by fram at 12/29/2008 @ 07:01am
It's called overthrowing a repressive regime, in Iraq you could not wait to do it, when an Arab does it you get all upset? Would you "feel" better if they used Predator unmanned planes to do their dirty work? What about the child of a non-violent citizen that gets blown up by an Israeli bomb?
Lets see if this latest attack (from both sides) solves the inherent problems created by western powers 60 years ago. Who thinks it will?
Israel has had the same strategy for 60 years, how's that working for them? How many terrorists do you think they will create this month?
Most civilians in Israel are also members of the military, by law, therefore they are legitimate targets of those attempting to free themselves from refugee camps and remove the yoke of occupation. In other words, they seek FREEDOM and LIBERTY. Who would oppose a new democracy in the Middle East?
SJ, look up the response from the Arabs back in 48, they told the western powers that it was a bad idea to create Israel, they warned of an eternal conflict if western powers dictated ME policy. Europes Jews could have been settled in Brooklyn, or Buffalo, or Houston or someplace similar to Israel, say riverside CA. Why didn't your ancestors want those Jews? I am wondering what the response would have been back in '48 if several hundred thousand "kikes" had been forcibly relocated onto your grandpas property. I bet that would have been second only to giving blacks some land in his subdivision.
Posted by crabwalk at 12/29/2008 @ 07:22am
As noted in his article...John Nichols explains why there will be no condemnation of Israel...
"J Street, argues that: "While (the recent) air strikes by Israeli Defense Forces in Gaza can be understood and even justified in the wake of recent rocket attacks..."
If you don't have J Street calling the strikes un-justified, who WOULD oppose Israel's actions?????
Posted by Mask at 12/29/2008 @ 07:39am
crabwalk,
Your post shows total ignorance.
I can not speak for Brooklyn, Houston or the Inland Empire (Riverside/San Bernadino County), but Buffalo is not the ancestral homeland of the Jewish People. I do not think those other locations are, either.
Buffalo is a nice place to live, despite the stereotype that it is not, and plenty of Jewish people live in Buffalo, but that is because they choose to live there and not back in Israel.
Israel is the ancestral home of the Jewish people. The Jewish people have a right to have a state there, called Israel.
Your ignorance in wondering how Buffalonians would have reacted if several hundred thousand Jews (you use another word) were forcibly relocated there is apalling.
Arabic people have no business getting bent out of shape about location of Jews in Israel. They need to be made to understand that the area of the Middle East does not belong entirely to them, but also it should be shared with the Jewish people. They are not willing to do so and have no intention of ever trying to do so.
You overlook that. I see comments on this blog expressing angst toward Israel because Israel "thinks the area belongs only to them" from people who totally buy into the Arabic concept that the area belongs only to the Arabs.
Your comment is basically a racist comment, that "Europes Jews" could have "been settled" in Buffalo or elsewhere.
If a Jewish person wants to live in Buffalo and be a Bills and Sabres fan, because they want to be and not because they are told that is where they must go, that is their right.
But if a Jewish person wants to live in Israel (they can still root for the Bills and Sabres), then that is their right also.
You have no business proscribing otherwise.
Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 08:00am
crabwalk,
I tried to make light of the situation you brought up by bringing Buffalo sports teams in to the comment, but by doing so I realize that I did not point out that your post was vile and disgusting.
Consider that now done.
Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 08:03am
I guess as a Human Rights advocate Mr Falk could only be expected to condemn Israel's actions.
Last night after I heard the first report I couldn't help but think "I'll bet the Nation'll be all over this tomorrow" And I was right. With few exceptions, you can always count on this magazine to support the bad guys in some form, using the tragedy of civilian casualties, terrible but a fact of life in any combat in a populated area, as an excuse to do so.
How vocal would be the editor's support of victims had the Palestinians attacked some settlements. Guess that would only qualify as an "understandable reaction to years of grievous oppression."
Chip
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 12/29/2008 @ 08:32am
The government of israel has been breaking international laws since (at least) 1967. All people (including Palestinians and Iraqis) that suffer under occupation from a foreign force, have the right to fight for their freedoms and/or homelands in any manner possible. As a matter of fact these rights are confirmed right there in the Declaration Of Independence; and if the DOI is good enough for us Americans, then it is certainly good enough for the Palestinians and Iraqis.
Posted by robertfrancis at 12/29/2008 @ 09:02am
Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 08:00am
"Israel is the ancestral home of the Jewish people. The Jewish people have a right to have a state there, called Israel. "
How come? All humans originate in Southern Africa. Does this mean that you can all come back here, because your ancestors came from here? Even if you haven't exercised that right in thousands of years?
Posted by mikecope at 12/29/2008 @ 09:34am
Bush and the republicrats/evangelicrats are again being used by Israel to kill innocents. They know he is a lame duck and whatever they do now, he won't even act. Unfortunately Obama seems to have a similar approach that Israel is right at all times. I only hope he is more even-handed. We (all things on earth and in the universe) are God's chosen..I don't understand the "rats" view of the bible and its teachings, opposition to abortion, etc, etc, and the contradiction in getting satisfaction from killing innocent humans. One day, the whole world may be aligned against us, if we do not change our approach to Israel.
Posted by jamerican at 12/29/2008 @ 09:55am
jamerican,
So you want to do wrong, and support murderers who seek to destroy Israel, in order that the world not be "aligned against us"?
With your post comes the inevitible, which you can count on while viewing blogs on The Nation - the introduction, as always, of George W. Bush and the condemnation you provide for the wrongs you think he is guilty of.
Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 10:19am
Israel: bully or victim?? The world is torn:
http://controversialpolling.blogspot.com/
Posted by jimmyvegasjimmy at 12/29/2008 @ 11:35am
Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 08:00am
Wow you're amazing. I will pose this question. Should America give the native Americans back their land? After all the the native Americans resided on this land MUCH more recently than the Jews resided on Israel pre-1948. The Jews had not owned Israel for something like 1300 years before that. So HOW do they have ownership of that land? Just because someone laid claim to a land 1000 years ago it means it is forever theirs? If that's the case we American should pack up and go back to Europe.
I don't get this argument that Jews have a claim to their land because it was their ancient territory. There are plenty of cultures who lost their land and have never gotten it back. Every white person in Africa needs to get out. Every American here needs to get out. Every Mexican needs to leave for Spain. Land has been taken more recently and according to you everyone should give it back because those cultures claimed that land a long time ago. Your argument that because they ONCE resided in Israel that it is always theirs doesn't hold water because I know you don't believe all Americans should leave America to the native Americans.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 12:17pm
Cccomfo1,
The issue here is not as you present it. The issue is that an attempt was made to have a Palestinian state and an Israeli state side by side in peace.
But the Arabs said no then and say no today. There is no legitimate reason for the no, it is no because they want that land, perhaps, but more importantly they do not want the Jewish people there.
This small area of land (Israel) has become so totally important to the Arabs. If it were not a matter of seeking to deny Israel their existence, would the Arabs care about that land or the people in it? Probably not.
You cite situations that many say are wrongs. Yet you propose them as justification for Israel to be denied a state in their ancestral homeland.
At some point after Biblical times the area became sparsley populated, until the 1800's when Jews and Palestinians resettled in the area.
This land, known by some to be "Israel proper" is only 9 miles wide at one point.
God Almighty, there is only a small piece of land there and yet we hear over and over again that it is justifiable that they be denied that land.
The Arabs and Palestinians are totally wrong to be unwilling to share the area with the Jewish people and allow the existence of Israel, yet in many places such as on this website it is the Arab view that is held as justified.
The peaceful existence of Israel would in no way deny Arabs or Palestinians anything whatsoever, but they hate Jews and want control over the whole area, so they refuse since 1948 to compromise - and then are portrayed as victims, with the Israelis blamed as wrong.
This website, The Nation, the many contributors to it or bloggers on it, would have you believe they promote tolerance, yet they support the most intolerant and racist people on earth.
Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 1:30pm
sjchermak, your posting are nothing but insane, propaganda and above all pure bull shit....
Nothing else can be said about your rants..Enough said..
"This website, The Nation, the many contributors to it or bloggers on it, would have you believe they promote tolerance, yet they support the most intolerant and racist people on earth. Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 1:30pm "
This is the comment you posted and going by your earlier postings one can clearly determine who is the racist here!
Posted by freenation at 12/29/2008 @ 1:43pm
The peaceful existence of Israel would in no way deny Arabs or Palestinians anything whatsoever, but they hate Jews and want control over the whole area, so they refuse since 1948 to compromise - and then are portrayed as victims, with the Israelis blamed as wrong.
Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 1:30pm
Someone just posted about how a group of Arabs tried to work with Israel yet Israel kept making Jewish only settlements and kept taking land from Palestinians. Face it. No side has truly worked toward a peaceful solution. The last ceasefire is completely indicative of what has been the history of this region. Both sides posturing and only committing themselves to 30% of the effort needed to achieve a lasting peace. I know you somehow have deluded yourself into thinking that the Jews are being bullied by the big bad Arabs but when you look at the current conflict, Israel has no problem defending itself and Hamas is not a true threat to them. 1 Israeli civilian killed for 50 Palestinian Civilians and 230 Hamas members. I would say the odds are a little imbalanced.
You want a solution, Israel has to stop posturing and let full on aid in instead of the half-assed effort they showed during the ceasefire and Hamas has to stop all the rocket fire instead of just the part of during the cease fire.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 3:53pm
Cccomfo1,
You said "Hamas has to stop all the rocket fire"
That WILL NOT HAPPEN.
The Palestinians never, ever live up to any agreement they make.
Most Israelis know by now that any concession they make takes them a step closer to having Israel no longer exist.
There has been no meaningful concession by the Palestinians during the entire time of these problems, going back to 1948.
They have given no indication whatsoever that they are willing to allow the existence of Israel. In fact, many times their rhetoric clearly shows what the ultimate goal is.
There is no possiblity of peace until they stop this.
It is totally unreasonable for Israel to make any more concessions without reciprocity by the other side.
It is absolutely frustrating to see people here on these blogs either think that there is equal blame on both sides, or in many cases, their comments make it clear they themselves do not think Israel should exist.
Some people including you have alluded to an "imbalance" regarding Israelis killed by rocket fire and Palestinian civilians killed.
There should have been no rocket fire to begin with. Israel left Gaza, the amount of rocket fire should have been 0 (Zero). Any amount above zero is not acceptable.
Israel has over the years absolutely "truly worked" towards a peaceful solution. Ehud Barak was willing to give up everything Arafat supposedly wanted, but that still was not enough.
You are not taking into account that I would think Israelis are getting tired of jerking around with this. Their existence has been threatened by people who hate them for no good reason since 1948, and you will have to understand that they are tired of trying to make peace with people that hate them.
**comment to freenation: YOU'RE the racist
Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 4:11pm
Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 4:11pm
Wrong. When they implemented the ceasefire Hamas took action to reduce the rocket fire. They said they didn't stop it because Israel didn't hold up it's end of the bargain.
"You are not taking into account that I would think Israelis are getting tired of jerking around with this. Their existence has been threatened by people who hate them for no good reason since 1948, and you will have to understand that they are tired of trying to make peace with people that hate them."
So what's your solution? Genocide? I see you offering a lot of analysis but zero solutions.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 5:01pm
Cccomfo1,
I stated in these blogs, and have stated before that I DO NOT HAVE A SOLUTION.
I have stated what the problems are:
1. The Palestinians and the Arabic world want no Israel.
2. These entities have not made any meaningful concessions whatsoever. Their goal remains no Israel. They have no intention of moving off of that goal.
3. Much of the rest of the world is anti-Semetic and thus either does not care about Israel or is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.
4. Thus, there is no world pressure on the Palestinians and Arabs to modify their stance.
5. Some of the Arabic world has had and does now have the means to aid the Palestinian people, regarding their living conditions. They have not done so ON PURPOSE, in order to have the situation fester and have angry people in the Middle East, beacuse they know the world will blame Israel.
I do not know how to solve any single one of these things. It certainly does not help when one side (the Palestinians and Arabs) are so totally wrong but anytime something like this comes up, people such as the editors at The Nation crucify Israel.
All solutions proposed anytime something like this happens ultimately lead to the weakening of Israel.
My solution would be for world people to start calling it for what it is, citing the Arabs for blame, and forcing the Palestinians to stop jihad and intifada.
The only nation that is on board with my way of thinking is Canada. Next year there is to be another UN conference on Racism. The last one turned into a bash Israel conference. Canada has said they will not attend the next one.
But I don't know how to modify world opinion.
I do know that demanding Israel do thing that weaken it is not the solution, and is WRONG.
Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 5:58pm
Here is an article written by Rush Limbaugh back in 2001 relating to the situation in the Middle East. It is still relevant today.
There is no point in not posting this just because of who the author is - a person ridiculed by the left.
I have come to realize that to do so means you are self-censoring yourself before you even start a dialog with people on the left - which is what the left wants.
It is not for leftists to determine who I use as a source. But maybe some on this thread who are so gung-ho that "both sides" are to blame for the problems or that ceasfire and "peace" are the answers will learn something from Rush's commentary.
Rush Op-Ed: Unleash Israel and Win Peace December 6, 2008 http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/ home/daily/ site_122908/content/ 01125122.guest.html.guest.html
Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 6:17pm
Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 5:58pm
The mark of someone who bought the propaganda. This is hilarious.
"5. Some of the Arabic world has had and does now have the means to aid the Palestinian people, regarding their living conditions. They have not done so ON PURPOSE, in order to have the situation fester and have angry people in the Middle East, beacuse they know the world will blame Israel."
This one is particularly funny. How is ANYONE supposed to help Palestinians if Israel will not let in aid?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 7:29pm
Cccomfo1,
Where have the Arabic states that could have been helping the Palestinians been, since 1948?
These discussions do not consist only of what is happening now, but what has been happening (or not happening) since 1948.
I can assure you, it is not funny. Not amusing.
You were concerned that I had no solutions, but the solutions offered up by many of those on this thread are the "solutions" that have kept this conflict going and going and going without any end in sight.
Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 8:47pm
Perhaps some of you here on The Nation could benefit from finding out there is more than one side to a story:
=====================
Jewish World Review December 29, 2008 / 2 Teves, 5769
A crisis and an opportunity
By Michael B. Oren
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1208/oren122908.php3
=====================
Not everybody sees the world the way many of you on The Nation blogs see it.
Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 9:00pm
Not everybody sees the world the way many of you on The Nation blogs see it. Posted by sjchermak at 12/29/2008 @ 9:00pm
And not everyone sees it the way you do. Yet you choose to only look from the side of Israelis. I know you like to think yourself worldly but the way you speak only speaks to one side of the argument.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 9:28pm
<< Professor Richard Falk ... a longtime member of the Nation editorial board. >>
Richard Falk has said in writing that Washington is hiding the truth about 9/11, was complicit in that attack, and is "fascist".
He defends Hamas as a legitimate organization, though its charter pledges it to fight and "obliterate" Israel, a UN member. On the other hand he has has compared Israel to Nazi Germany.
His record of lunacies includes extolling Ayatollah Khomeini, in a 1979 NY Times piece and ridiculing the notion that the Ayatollah was a religious fanatic and reactionary.
This crackpot has been appointed by the UN Human Rights Council, to be its objective and impartial "rapporteur" on Israel.
Katrina vanden Heuvel supports Falk as he condemnes Israel for replying to rocket fire from Gaza. Hamas resumed massively and randomly shooting into Israel 12 days ago upon declaring the cease fire, ended.
Katrina lacks intellectual honesty and common sense. She is a joke and a scandal. The Nation does not deserve to be taken seriously.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 12/30/2008 @ 03:16am
Take a fundamental, basic tenet that defines who you are. Now imagine someone wants you dead because of it. This is what the Jews have endured for ages. This is how many in the world view Americans, how white supremacists view blacks, When an individual, or a group of individuals believe a fundamental part of their existence, and sometimes even their eternal salvation, lies in the destruction of another group of people, the only solution of the threatened group is to seek liberty. True and lasting liberty; freedom from tyranny or intolerance, is always accompanied by bloodshed. How lovely it would be if the world were different, and as tolerance and peace spreads it may change, but we must remember that we cannot force others who may not be as "progressive" as us, to instantly change who they are. Look how long it has taken us in America to tolerate others...
Posted by farmerjosh at 12/30/2008 @ 1:05pm