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RedditLast Friday, one of the guests preceding my segment on MSNBC's Hardball was a then-little known Congresswoman from Minnesota named Michele Bachmann.
She's not little known now.
Bachmann said of Barack Obama, "I‘m very concerned that he may have anti-American views." She then called on the media to "take a great look at the views of the people in Congress and find out, are they pro-America or anti-America?"
I've heard a lot of toxic words in my time as Editor of The Nation. The magazine and its editors have been called un-American, unpatriotic, America- haters, and worse. But Bachmann's name-calling, and brazen channeling of Joe McCarthy made me angry. Really angry. When Matthews turned to me for my response I told him exactly what I was feeling, "Chris, I fear for my country…. This is a politics, at a moment of extreme economic pain in this country, that is incendiary, that is so debased that I‘m kind of almost having a hard time breathing, because I think it's very scary, because this is a country I love."
I said what I believed, nothing more. Bachmann's over-the-top baiting angered many Americans who've had it with the fearmongering and division that has characterized our politics for too long. That emotion poured forth in e-mails which I was extremely moved to receive from so many people – across the country – who wanted to tell me that they shared my views and were grateful that I had expressed the fear and outrage they feel about this kind of poisonous politics. Here are some excerpts from those notes:
Paul in California wrote: "…You make me proud to be an American. Keep it up, we are with you." And from Autumn in Kansas: "Thank you Katrina, for sticking up for all of us out there that might be perceived as ‘anti-American' by the likes of Rep. Bachmann." Jan in Arizona: "That took guts. We know how upset you were and want to support you…. So just a note of thanks." And from Brad in Chicago: "Thank you for sounding the alarm bell, and for speaking for us all."
Since then, the backlash to Bachmann's (and McCain-Palin's) politics of fear and loathing and demonization, division and distraction is reason for hope, and it also looks as though it might lead to this right-wing ideologue's well-deserved defeat in November.
Bachmann's challenger, Democrat Elwyn Tinklenberg, has raised $1.3 million from approximately 20,000 people since Bachmann gave voice to her politics of (self) destruction. According to the Washington Post, he has quadrupled his television advertising, the Cook Political Report now calls the race a "tossup," and Bachmann's Republican primary foe has decided to conduct a write-in campaign. (Support Tinklenberg however you can and make sure Bachmann is forced out of the People's House.)
The netroots wasted no time in exposing Bachmann's ugly extremism. Within a day, a video posted on YouTube of Bachmann's comments (and my response) had over 87,000 hits. Over 55,000 people have signed a petition calling on Congress to censure Bachmann. Americans United for Change launched IamProAmerica.com in response to both Bachmann's vitriol and Sarah Palin's stumping about "pro-America areas" of our nation.
People on both sides of the aisle have spoken out against Bachmann. On Sunday, following an appearance on Meet the Press, Colin Powell told reporters, "This business, for example, we've got a congressman from Minnesota who's going around saying, ‘Let's examine all congressmen to see who is pro-America and whose not pro-America.' We have got to stop this kind of nonsense, pull ourselves together, and remember that our great strength is in our unity and our diversity."
The six Minnesota Democratic–Farmer–Labor Party (DFL) members of Minnesota's congressional delegation – Senator Amy Klobuchar, and Representatives Keith Ellison, Betty McCollum, James Oberstar, Collin Peterson, and Tim Walz – issued a joint statement: "... All Members of Congress – Democrats and Republicans – swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and for Michele Bachmann to question their loyalty is outrageous. We pride ourselves in Minnesota on our clean and civil elections, but Michele Bachmann's comments run entirely counter to that tradition. All Americans, regardless of their political beliefs, should reject these kinds of divisive, inappropriate and unacceptable comments."
But the chair of the DFL, Brian Melendez, also spoke of the "deafening silence" of Minnesota Republicans who failed to speak out against Bachmann's comments. He said, "…In the wake of Bachmann's call for witch hunts, I… denounce the silence of the Republicans who are part of, or who are running to join, Minnesota's congressional delegation. Senator Norm Coleman and Representative John Kline, along with candidates Erik Paulsen and Brian Davis, have all been shockingly silent."
As for Bachmann, she has been flailing for her political life ever since that Hardball appearance. On Monday she denied everything: "I did not question Barack Obama's patriotism, I did not say he was anti-American." On Tuesday at a Rotary Club luncheon she insisted, "Nor did I call for an investigation of members of Congress for their pro-American or anti-American views." (Check out the Hardball transcript and judge for yourself.) Later that day, speaking with the St. Cloud Times editorial board she admitted, "I should not have used that phrase [un-American]." But she also blamed her words on "a trap" that she alleged was set by Matthews. Finally, yesterday, she seemed to be taking no responsibility whatsoever for the views she expressed, writing in a fundraising pitch in a conservative online newsletter: "Chris Matthews did what Chris Matthews is paid big bucks to do: Twist my words and set them up for full-fledged distortion when his next guest came on. And, when the liberal blogs got hold of little clips of my appearance, the spin machine really kicked into overdrive.... They're motivated entirely by their hatred of me and my conservative beliefs…. Click here to let Chris know you play hardball, too!"
Yesterday, however, might have brought the final nail in Bachmann's political coffin –sources said that the National Republican Campaign Committee is pulling its funding out of her race. Today she finds herself on the front-page of the Los Angeles Times with a story on her "million dollar mistake."
Maybe – just maybe – we've reached a tipping point… a time when people seek real attention to the real and large issues impacting their lives, and say enough with the smears via robocalls, the venom stoking the basest political passions in our society. Bachmann was exposed, but there is still anger and division out there, and we need to take care not to fuel that fire if we're going to preserve our best democratic traditions.
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Katrina vanden Heuvel
Thoughts on politics, current affairs, riffs and reflections on what’s in the news and what’s not--but should be.
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Bachman displayed the ugly under-belly of the far right. Katrina I witnessed your responce with joy in my heart! Thank you so much, again.
Posted by Truthman at 10/23/2008 @ 4:19pm
hi kvh.
good thing chris matthews didn't interview me afterwards.
and i'm not even a gringo!
check out the first bachmann underdrive thread here at the nation. i posted numerous pre-hardball quotes from this "person".
quite odd, she is.....
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/23/2008 @ 4:28pm
you know,
ms. bachmann is the first person i've ever seen who has had her smile botoxxed.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/23/2008 @ 4:36pm
one could mathematically prove what bachmann said, without error, using logic. and present it to her. and she would *still* evade reality. and the look in her eyes says it all: she is a paranoid, orwellian zombie. as someone said, "even her smile is botoxed". classic.
please tell me this woman is not jewish! she's an offense to my people!
Posted by darladoon at 10/23/2008 @ 5:26pm
Yeah, gotta love Bachmann trying to channel Palin with a total denial of the FACTS (i.e. Palin's insistance that the "Troopergate" report "cleared her", when it did the exact opposite.)
McCain and the Repubs think they can still get away with the old crap...and they can't.
It's either that the public doesn't care or believe them...or that they've just gotten worse at SELLING it.
Bachmann may win her seat back...but she's had the fear of God (metaphorically) thrown into her over saying the stupid shit that Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. say on afternoon radio or RedRiver/RIO BRAVO says here...heheh.
Posted by Maskdelta at 10/23/2008 @ 5:57pm
These two goofballs, Palin and Bachmann, have anti-Republican and anti-American confused! I freely admit to the former but being accused of the latter, them's fightin' words!
Posted by stoyver at 10/23/2008 @ 6:02pm
Dear Katrina,
I witnessed the whole thing, I know what I saw, I know what I heard...and may I commend you on your response. I've admired your intelligence and integtiy for ages now, it is the first time I've ever seen you "lose it". It was obvious you were angry, and you did the right thing, you called out a fool, and then made the fool defend herself. This may not seem like much, but I have been fighting out here in Nebraska for years for basic human rights for all people; you showed eveyone that by standing up to the lies and obfuscations the neo-cons rely on they can be shredded in an instant.
Thank you for your service, you fight the good fight and speak for those of us who don't have access to media presentations. This country is just a little better because you stood up and spoke for the tens of millions of us that are sick and tired of being called "un-American" because we don't follow some bumbling idiot into the darkness.
Posted by rasputin195 at 10/23/2008 @ 6:03pm
This is the second time I have seen Katrina stand up for what is right. The last time was on cnn and she was with other democrats and shwe was the only one to really speak up and put the neo-cons in their place. Brains integrity and beauty. Go Katrina.
Posted by Wingedbull at 10/23/2008 @ 6:06pm
The times I'd seen you before on the tube, KVH, you displayed all the right qualities, intellectualism, truth & enthusiasm; the glue that holds this world together. If you had to get angry (didn't see the program), that was the time & place for it. Bachmann needed a thrashing & from what I've heard, you did it!
Posted by Sorelish at 10/23/2008 @ 7:05pm
Sorelish-She gave Pat a good whooping and ever since then he has been shouting people down.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/23/2008 @ 7:08pm
Dear Katrina
Way to say exactly what needed to be said after remark like that. So many people on major media outlets would not have had the guts to say what you did, Pat Buchanan's and Chris Matthews' responses were examples. After I saw your response, I was so angry, then motivated to do something that I went right to the nearest Obama campaign office and started knocking on doors in order to remind people to get out the vote.
You are right, this is a time of extreme economic pain for our country, I was reminded by that all too well as I was informed just over four hours ago that I have just lost my job due to downsizing.
Thank you so very much for reminding as so many people who are listening that these kind of remarks are fear based and do nothing more than divide a country that is, at the moment, in dire need of solidarity.
Keep it up Katrina!
Posted by jribaudo at 10/23/2008 @ 7:32pm
I'm- Yeah, the shoutdown is the favored right wing "discussion" tactic. They all seem to use it with regularity.
Posted by Sorelish at 10/23/2008 @ 7:44pm
Outraged Indignation suits you well KVH! "Pit-bull" comes to mind. Well done! Any time you leave Buchanan speechless you know you've carried the day and more.
Posted by OneVote at 10/23/2008 @ 7:50pm
Posted by Sorelish at 10/23/2008 @ 7:44pm | ignore this person | warn this person
See Rebuke for GOP Attack on the front page.
Posted by OneVote at 10/23/2008 @ 7:57pm
Sic Semper Tyrannus.
Posted by k20thmaine at 10/23/2008 @ 8:12pm
I'm sorry, really sorry, to point this out, but although Michele Bachmann is scum of the earth, why oh why is her opponent named Elwyn Tinklenberg?! Not knowing the gentleman, who is probably a fine upstanding individual . . . again I'm sorry, really sorry, but his name . . . his name . . . ahem . . . is an archetypically dork name!
Posted by philandrel at 10/23/2008 @ 8:18pm
<i>Yeah, gotta love Bachmann trying to channel Palin with a total denial of the FACTS (i.e. Palin's insistance that the "Troopergate" report "cleared her", when it did the exact opposite.)
McCain and the Repubs think they can still get away with the old crap...and they can't.
It's either that the public doesn't care or believe them...or that they've just gotten worse at SELLING it.
Bachmann may win her seat back...but she's had the fear of God (metaphorically) thrown into her over saying the stupid shit that Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. say on afternoon radio or RedRiver/RIO BRAVO says here...heheh.
Posted by Maskdelta at 10/23/2008 @ 5:57pm </i>
If my memory serves me correctly, didn't it establish that she committed no criminal violations? Unless my memory fails me, I believe it claimed an "abuse of power" without strong effort to clarify the term. If I am missing the boat on this, perhaps you could clarify it for me.
Posted by Thrawn at 10/23/2008 @ 8:22pm
The campaigns have lasted just long enough for the GOP to expose itself as morally, ethically, intellectually bankrupt to an extent that even many couch potatoes are getting the message.
About time.
Posted by sloper at 10/23/2008 @ 9:06pm
Posted by Thrawn at 10/23/2008 @ 8:22pm
The report does state she violated the Alaska ethics act (whose exact name escapes me right now). You may be thinking in that it did state that she was within her rights to terminate Monegan, but the surrounding atmosphere is what they felt caused the violation. That could just be my impression however.
Posted by yutsano at 10/23/2008 @ 9:12pm
I'll take a good look at the report tonight, I guess, so we can (maybe) clear things up.
Posted by Thrawn at 10/23/2008 @ 9:18pm
Because of YOU, a person who dare respond as everyone should to such McCarthy rhetoric, as you so well called it. Because of YOUR response to what she said is why this woman met the beginning of her political downfall! You spoke up against the very hateful practices the Republican Right-Wings nuts have been spewing year after year on TV, thinking they can get away with it with few people daring to knock em down on the spot! Thank you for dismantling another Right-Wing FEMBOT. After your response Buchanan was too afraid to try and defend his ROBOT. We don't know how to thank you. But please keep doing what your doing when confronted with such hate and ignorance!
Posted by Tasia at 10/23/2008 @ 9:27pm
Judging someone by something so silly as haveing a "dorky" name is part of the reason we keep electing these boobs. You need to stop reacting to these meaningless things and focus on what is importent.
Posted by Wingedbull at 10/23/2008 @ 9:50pm
Irwen Tinkleberg sounds much better than Michele Bachman.
Posted by Wingedbull at 10/23/2008 @ 9:51pm
Strong Leader stay on message and address the issues. When you have to attack people you automatically lose. It also demonstrate a lack of understanding the issues. Reagen never attacked. He would just smile and say thank you because he knew in his heart he was right. Plus he loved America.
Posted by drjalee52 at 10/23/2008 @ 9:55pm
quite odd, she is..... Posted by frosty zoom at 10/23/2008 @ 4:28pm
FZ, the woman is clearly deranged. That's not ideology, that's insanity. Much more scary.
Kudos to KVH for speaking her mind.
Posted by jackwells at 10/23/2008 @ 10:05pm
I too witnessed KVH's destructive but honest evaluation of the mindset of the lunatic Republicans. Now all KVH has to do is show how Palin is really PRO-ABORTION; and by that I do not mean PRO-CHOICE. Palin is a supporter of aborting a fetus if a mother's life is in danger during childbirth or pregnancy. No one can call themselves Pro-Life EXCEPT ONLY to save your own life if it were a choice between a mother and the fetus and STILL call themselves a Christian Pro-Lifer. The religious hypocrisy when it's time to meet your creator is tested in examples such as giving up your life for your child, and in Palin's case SHE FAILS as as the fake Christian she is and rather have the fetus KILLED.
Posted by Tasia at 10/23/2008 @ 10:35pm
I don't know what is more offensive. What Bachmann said or how she's trying to weasel out of it.
I would love to see her return to Hardball and explain to Mathews how he twisted her words while he plays the tape and grills her.
Posted by koroviev at 10/23/2008 @ 11:33pm
Hugo-Pirovano-Bachmann wasn't just talking about Obama nor could the Clintons or GOP find any connection to Ayers that conservative businesspeople and Joe the plumber,also had.You should get informed before shooting off your mouth.Bachmann,like you,are unAmerican.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/23/2008 @ 11:45pm
After watching the Hardball segment the other day I did something I've NEVER done before in my life: I sent (online) a contribution to Bachmann's competitor! Even though I'm a school teacher and can barely afford to make one more contribution, I gladly forked over my weekend spending money to prevent another McCarthy era from starting anew!
Posted by szaidins at 10/23/2008 @ 11:51pm
I saw the episode of Hardball to which Ms. Vanden Heuvel refers. Her reaction to Bachmann's outrageous incendiary comments mirrored my own. I am so proud of her for speaking out against this modern-day McCarthyist. The backlash against Bachmann does indeed offer a glimmer of hope that the tide might finally turn against the politics of hate and divisiveness.
Posted by billtc at 10/23/2008 @ 11:54pm
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/23/2008 @ 11:36pm If a white Republican candidate were called unAmerican for a long and close association with a former KuKluxer, who tells the NY Times he only regrets not having participate
Tell 'em about the 7-11 poll, Frosty
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 10/24/2008 @ 12:12am
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/23/2008 @ 11:36pm If a white Republican candidate were called unAmerican for a long and close association with a former KuKluxer, who tells the NY Times he only regrets not having participate
Tell 'em about the 7-11 poll, Frosty
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 10/24/2008 @ 12:12am
KVH is the one being demagogic and un-American. She is a phony, a hypocrite, a sleazeball.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/23/2008
BY GOLLY, YOU'RE RIGHT!
THANKS, hUGO«‘«pIROVANO!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/24/2008 @ 01:07am
kudos to greenspan for admitting that his satano-aynrando ideology had some holes in it.
Posted by dexter666 at 10/24/2008 @ 01:10am
here's the poll deal, pax:
http://www.7-election.com/
holy cowl! obama's beating mccain 61 - 39.
in texas!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/24/2008 @ 01:11am
Hugo your filled with fear and paranoia! This is a free country and your supporting McCarthyism shame on you. I now want to now why you said what you said, and plan to investigate you. I now want to know which denomination you belong to and if it supports pro-choice I will damn that denomination. This is the kind of lunatic thinking you support, and shame on you for trying to turn us into a fascist nation. You have no proof of Obama being In Ayers livingroom. That is a RUMOR THE REPUBLICANS have fed you and you swallowed it like kool-aid without demanding proof. This only means your mind is weak and gullible for the Republicans to drag you into their ugly world. Have you no shame in being as nosy as the old lady down the block? Grow up, come out of the dark ages and join civilization. Religion has killed millions and here you are promoting hate and lies in the name of God... shame on you.
Posted by Tasia at 10/24/2008 @ 01:12am
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/23/2008 @ 11:36pm
Uh, Hugo...John McCain and his very good friend, the unrepentant, felonious, domestic terrorist - G. Gordon Liddy. Care to go down that road? I've got quotes. From Liddy and his proud pal, the Senator from Arizona. And McCain was a lot older than 8 when Liddy was attempting his brand of domestic terrorism. Shall we go there?
Posted by jmusolino at 10/24/2008 @ 01:16am
KVH is the one being demagogic and un-American. She is a phony, a hypocrite, a sleazeball.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/23/2008 @ 11:36pm | ignore this person | warn this person
nah...you anti-democracy red white and blue facsists are the real america haters...
Posted by dexter666 at 10/24/2008 @ 01:26am
next up on the docket...
deflation, not inflation. the great dumping of assets approaches. credit is squeezed, hard times are coming...
this sucks.
at least i was right all along (small consolation, but something).
Posted by dexter666 at 10/24/2008 @ 01:41am
The most trenchant point you made in your response is the correct one. Ms. Bachmann seems not to have a clue concerning the forces that can be unleashed with this kind of talk. There are always, in any society, those who hold views that can only be called fascist. The real terror comes in legitimizing those views publicly, by not responding when someone in the audience starts screaming about killing your political opponent, or by questioning the patriotic "credentials" of an entire political class. It's no surprise that the 1930's are now seen by some as ancient history and that they can't be bothered to learn about the rise of these vile ideas. What is disturbing is that it's a member of Congress, someone who makes our laws, that is so disdainful of the past, a past which still exists in the memory of the living. She does reflect a genuine lack of historical ignorance and she needed to be called to task for exactly that, just as you did. Thank you.
Posted by ncimon at 10/24/2008 @ 01:48am
i'm nobody writes:
" Bachmann wasn't just talking about Obama nor could the Clintons or GOP find any connection to Ayers that conservative businesspeople and Joe the plumber,also had.You should get informed before shooting off your mouth.Bachmann,like you,are unAmerican.."
Shooting off one's mouth is not un-American. Not allowing others to do so, and trying to intimidate them into silence, which is Katrina's tack, that is.
About the Clintons, they most certainly knew about Obama's radical background and his link to Ayers. My guess is, Hillary's own lefty history tied her hands.
As to the GOP, I don't understand why McCain has not trumpeted Obama's left wing roots, and his equally revolting connection to Pastor Wright and Father Pfleger. But I don't have to ignore that history. Moreover, I remember Obama's oft repeated vow, as during his Iowa victory speech, "to give America fundamental change."
Those sentiments are pure Ayers, Dohrn, Wright, Pfleger. That is what that ilk, and The Nation crowd, dream about.
If they try to realize it they will wake up to a nightmare. The American people don't want fundamental change. If they vote for Obama it will be for a fellow at pains to identify himself as a moderate. This very howl against Bachmann will be part of the evidence. He will not be able to claim a mandate for radical measures no matter how large his vote. The overwhelming majority of the voters believe the country is fundamentally okay. Any administration that attempts to redirect her in a radical direction will discover the why and what-for of the Second Amendment.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 03:55am
Being labeled liberal as though it were a four letter word does not bother me in the least.
Being called a Socialist is amusing.
Being called anti-American by a Fascist such as Bachmann doesn't upset.
On the contrary, it makes me all the more resolved in spirit to battle the Fascist element of the Republican Party that has clearly so outed itself during this campaign.
The fear mongering, hateful and divisive right wing that has for the past 8 years worked hard to subvert our freedoms has clearly defined Fascism by example.
Been lied to, been used but now ordinary American's are waking up.
And citizens who never pondered the term Fascist before, are seeing for the first time that something is just not right about what they are hearing from the Republican Party and the likes of Bachmann.
They may not know what to call it exactly, but it's making them very uncomfortable...and indeed it should.
Although the term for most is so far fetched, vile and frightening, the example of the term by definition is on display today by those who control the RNC.
Regardless of the outcome of this election, we can never let our guard down again. The past 8 years of Bush and the tactics and rhetoric of the McCain/Palin campaign should be more than enough evidence of their designs and agenda.
We owe it to our children and to the founding fathers of our nation to prevent this dangerous, right wing, fascist element from ever governing again.
Posted by Hoot at 10/24/2008 @ 04:58am
First off, kudos to Ms. vanden Heuvel for the heartfelt response to the gnashing of teeth by Michele Bachmann on Hardball last Friday.
Second, cheers to the NY Times for today's lead op-ed stating, "The nation's problems are simply too grave to be reduced to slashing "robo-calls" and negative ads. This country needs sensible leadership, compassionate leadership, honest leadership and strong leadership."
Third and most importantly, in essence, we've had a multitude of signals emanating loudly and clearly from the Obama campaign to give away the outlines of his presidency. Those signals are, frankly, not very reassuring in the least.
To state, as The Nation does in their latest lead op-ed that, "If elected, Obama will face massive entrenched power whose writ runs large in Washington", is to understate the grave degree to which Barack Obama's campaign has thrived by sidling up to said "entrenched power".
Look, very few readers here are so naïve as to not understand the political necessity of kowtowing to power, but there is also a fine balance that must be struck in order to allow later wiggle that is room necessary to effect a useful progressive agenda, and Mr. Obama has, in my firm opinion, needlessly gone too far to the obsequious side of the spectrum.
I agree with Alex Cockburn's latest column that Barack Obama, as much as he is clearly a decent human being and a much needed reprieve from Dubya and McNasty, probably falls far short of what is needed for America and the rest of our global society at this most critical of world historic moments.
To say that progressives have their work cut out for them is to put the case in its mildest of terms.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 10/24/2008 @ 05:03am
I will be celebrating with the rest of the planet when Barack Obama is elected the 44th president of the United States.
And then I'll be offering my most sincere "prayers" as an atheist that we will find the collective cojones and wisdom to navigate the narrows that lie dead ahead.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 10/24/2008 @ 05:04am
Some fine comic relief from The Onion:
tinyurl.com/6h4aqe
Under note: "Palin to visit McCain today, Alaskan governor's scent said to sooth him."
:D
Posted by b_kool_66 at 10/24/2008 @ 05:35am
And now for something completely different --a totally nonsensical nonsequitur:
tinyurl.com/2r32eq
Enjoy!
P.S. What's with Robby Kreiger's black eye?
G'day.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 10/24/2008 @ 05:52am
Dear Katrina:
Thanks for your inspired retort. I e-mailed Ms Bachmann a little jab myself, after a quick but necessary shower: it read.
"Congratulations! That was the most exquisitely executed political suicide I've ever witnessed. Good luck in the real world."
Posted by khungrit at 10/24/2008 @ 06:52am
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/23/2008
Nice going! That bit of wisdom gets you membership into the "HEAD UP YOUR ASS CLUB."
Posted by Truthman at 10/24/2008 @ 07:29am
Posted by Hoot at 10/24/2008 @ 04:58am
well done ole son!
Posted by Truthman at 10/24/2008 @ 07:40am
He would just smile and say thank you because he knew in his heart he was right. Plus he loved America.
Posted by drjalee52 at 10/23/2008 @ 9:55pm
He was also smiling when he said the missiles are on their way (to the Soviet Union). Reagan didn't know the microphones were hot and said that live. The man was a raging idiot. Reagan couldn't chew bubble gum and tie his shoes at the same time. Take your B.S. elsewhere.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/24/2008 @ 08:10am
Thank you Katrina for standing up for all Americans. I am proud of your stand, your intellect under such horrific accusations, and fighting for our country and political dignity. You always bring us back to the realism in politics; whether good or bad. This time you awaken us all in the McCain/Palin/GOP campaign and its divisive tactics. It is frightful to think government officials such as Bachmann, McCain and Palin spew such hate.
Posted by books at 10/24/2008 @ 08:17am
Last night on hardball, chris showed a clip of an interview with a fellow named Brad something or other, who resides in the slim pit of the far right. I noticed that his eyes were a lot like bachmann's eyes. I wonder what drugs they shoot that give them that glazed, wild eyed look? Could it be a mental disorder?
Posted by Truthman at 10/24/2008 @ 08:27am
Posted by drjalee52 at 10/23/2008
Saw an interview a few years back with former KGB general who said that Reagan brought the US closer to WWIII than did the Cuban missle crisis.
Posted by Truthman at 10/24/2008 @ 08:38am
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/23/2008 @ 11:36pm
In your practice of demagoguery you fail to take into account the perspective of Ayers - who <b>was</b> granted a terrorist in the definitive sense - but un-American? Why? If nothing else it shows you and yours' lack of balance.
I am sure from the perspective of anti-war protesters the sentiment, if not the acts of Ayers and his, were considered exceedingly pro-American at the time. (In that the support to end the war was a good thing.) To those who supported the war, I understand the difference of perspective, but I will not call one side un-American because their opinion was different. You of course have the right to proffer stilted opinion. This does not, however, lend it credence.
Ayers was a criminal and was tried. It was certainly not his "fault" that there was prosecutorial misconduct that led to his acquittal, but it happened. Get over it. Ayers has. He is now a respected member of society and is doing good things.
As to your allusion that their political perspective is parallel - it is unfounded. Could it have been the respect of peers (both university professors - Obama having substantial academic "chops" from Harvard) that led to his appointment to an educationally related post?
Think before you speak my friend. It goes a long way towards keeping ones foot out of their own maw.
So in all truth he isn't a terrorist
Posted by leftofcenter at 10/24/2008 @ 09:12am
Posted by Thrawn at 10/23/2008 @ 8:22pm
THRAWN, still waiting....
what did the report say about Palin violating the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act?
Now...what does PALIN say it says?
Posted by Maskdelta at 10/24/2008 @ 09:20am
"Chris, I fear for my country…. This is a politics, at a moment of extreme economic pain in this country, that is incendiary, that is so debased that I‘m kind of almost having a hard time breathing, because I think it's very scary, because this is a country I love."
posted by Katrina vanden Heuvel on 10/23/2008 @ 4:03pm
Oh KVH, you are so full of yourself!! Talk about selfrighteous indignation! You and John Nichols are definately two half peas in a pod. Bachmann spews McCarthyisms and you spew Marxisms. Her comments are no more incendary than yours.
You should have just hyperventilated and passed out, it would have spared the viewers from listening to your agonizing marxist whine.
Posted by ACook at 10/24/2008 @ 09:24am
Hugo-I did not say that you could not shoot off your mouth.I said that you should get informed prior to doing so, which you are not.Big difference.Hillary has no such radical ties and would have provided any information she could in order to win.Nor has the conservative media and GOP found any ties Ayers beyond what many others have that are deemed to be respectable and Bachmann wasn't talking about Obama.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/24/2008 @ 10:02am
So in all truth he isn't a terrorist
Posted by leftofcenter at 10/24/2008 @ 09:12am
Ooops. Got cut off. Should have read:
So in all truth he isn't a terrorist, he WAS a terrorist.
Posted by leftofcenter at 10/24/2008 @ 10:05am
Bachmann wasn't talking about Obama.Everyone already knows about Ayers.She was talking about others in congress that she deems to be unAmerican..Pointing that finger would take us down a slippery slope because once you start pointing it at some it becomes that much easier to keep pointing it at anyone you don't like.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/24/2008 @ 10:06am
I am a phony, a hypocrite, a sleazeball. Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/23/2008 @ 11:36pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Posted by emile duBois at 10/24/2008 @ 10:08am
The overwhelming majority of the voters believe the country is fundamentally okay. Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 03:55am | ignore this person | warn this person
this is just a lie.
Posted by emile duBois at 10/24/2008 @ 10:12am
This type of toxic rhetoric has been going on for 30 years at least. It's the biggest reason a lot of us quit the Republican party in the 80's. But, there are some people in this country that seem to thrive on that type of hate rhetoric. But, the rest of us are fed up with it. Which is the reason all the right wing pundits are so popular. It has finally reached a point where people are starting to recognize it for what it is. Hate Mongering at it's worst!!! I compliment you KVH for standing up for what you believe in (regardless of what the nut job before me ACook had to say I learned years ago to ignore people like that).
Posted by ganddw42 at 10/24/2008 @ 10:17am
holy cowl! Posted by frosty zoom at 10/24/2008 @ 01:11am
LOLOLOLOL
Incidentally, previous cryptic waterboarding comment (man, was I tired) intended to illuminate 1 possible motivation for any dedicated poster on this site - the fight for Truth, Justice, and the communistic, socialized, one-world-government replete with unmarked troop carriers North American way.
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 10/24/2008 @ 10:29am
The overwhelming majority of the voters believe the country is fundamentally okay. Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 03:55am | ignore this person
How long did it take you to meet all those folks? Logic, ever took a class?
Posted by Truthman at 10/24/2008 @ 10:37am
Posted by ganddw42 at 10/24/2008 @ 10:17am
You need to get over yourself too. I will always defend someone's right to free speech, regardless to how distasteful the message is. What I will not defend is attempts like this one from KVH to force people to self-censor what they say because she feels offended or it's not politically correct.
Posted by ACook at 10/24/2008 @ 11:03am
Posted by ACook at 10/24/2008 @ 11:03am |
With respect, while I agree in principle with the need to defend the "freedom of speech" I am not at all sure that "free speech" applies to all modes of verbal or written self-expression. I don't think I'm splitting hairs or straining a point when I say that when someone says something really nasty, or threatening, or downright abusive to someone else, a line may be crossed to where the act of expression befits the legal definition of assault. Or slander, or libel. And I wonder how many of the victims of the blacklists of the '50's (Pete Seeger comes to mind) were able to go to their lawyers and sue the bastards for "roadblocking" their rights to self expression. I don't think KVH (what a great journalist imho) is trying to "force people to self-censor," more trying to make them accountable for what they do.
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 10/24/2008 @ 11:30am
Katrina, I was so moved by your righteous anger and eloquence!
Although I am retired and living on a fixed income, I decided my money would be well spent helping defeat the Michele Bachmann's of this world.
Since your appearance on Hardball, I have donated to candidates in Mn, Ga, SC, NC, and, of course, to Obama.
I am sick of being demonized by the right as anti-American, especially since I spent twenty-two years of my life serving in the US Navy!
Thank you, Katrina, for standing up for all us "anti-Americans". Perhaps by working together, we'll save this country yet!
Posted by dgibby at 10/24/2008 @ 11:44am
Well done, KVH! I was watching and you were terrific,and set a good example for all of us. We NEED to be worried about this type of McCarthyite ranting, and do something. Send a letter to the St. Cloud paper, send $ to Elwyn, etc. BTW, did you see Chris Matthews on Morning Joe this am? He is now taking the same sane, rational view as KVH and the rest of us "anti-American"ers!!Who hit him on the head? I find the view of Hugo and ACook to be revolting and irrational, like someone posted, take a logic course and get back to us.
Posted by oldintel at 10/24/2008 @ 11:53am
Just happened to catch this on my exercise machine at the gym when it was first aired. I thought Matthews, who is so often too wordy, did a great job teasing out the hate and the vitriol in Bachman, and KVH's summary response was one of the finest I'd ever heard. I thought at the time "Oh, well, just another talking heads moment," but I'm delighted to see this thing had legs and that it is now stomping down the creeps all over America.
Posted by barnesgene at 10/24/2008 @ 11:55am
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 10/24/2008 @ 11:30am
I understand, buts words are only arbitrary symbols that may mean one thing to one group and yet mean something totally different to another.
What I don't approve of is the left's attempts to use the media format to censor (basically shut down) someone's right to say what may be deemed offensive.
Look, I'm a woman of color and there's not a particular day or time when I have not heard racial slurs hurld at me (I work in a hospital). So you can image if I reacted to every racially charged word like KVH reacted to the Ms. Bachmann of the world, I wouldn't be able to do my job.
Posted by ACook at 10/24/2008 @ 12:07pm
More hurling of the term "MARXISM"!
Perhaps you should actually know what it means before you all use it?
What a foolish, silly thing to be throwing around. Almost on par with calling John McCain a fascist.
I know it's hard to be marginalized, and shoved off to the side of the American political spectrum, ACOOK, as it's obviously gotten you quite angry and frustrated, but take heart! The election will be over soon.
Posted by TexasFlood at 10/24/2008 @ 12:35pm
And KVH, I'm sure you're not reading any of this anymore, but good work.
Opposing loony tunes extremists like Bachmann is hard work.
Nothing un-american about fighting back against the most anti-american of us all.
I must say I agree with Bachmann in the sense that we need to have people investigating folks like HER and her anti-american statements.
Posted by TexasFlood at 10/24/2008 @ 12:39pm
if I reacted to every racially charged word like KVH reacted to the Ms. Bachmann of the world, I wouldn't be able to do my job.
Posted by ACook at 10/24/2008 @ 12:07pm
I hear what your sayin, BUT, that is her job!
Posted by Truthman at 10/24/2008 @ 1:03pm
Hoot:
Consider that McCarty's weapon of choice was intimidation. When he could not respond factually he tared his opponents as Communists and subversives. It was quintessential demagogy.
But what do we see on Hardball?
Congresswoman Bachmann pointed out, the Democrat's nominee wants to be in charge of the same US govt which his friend and close associate, a former Weathermen and an unrepentant bomb thrower, sought to bring down with violence. What Bill Ayers thought too wicked to exist Barack Obama now wants to head. Should that not give us pause?
Karina vanden Heuvel felt the mere mention of that association was unforgiveable. She did not say, it was untrue, no, Bachmann crime was delving into Obama's roots; that was indecent, contemptible, IT MADE HER AFRAID FOR HER COUNTRY. In short, her response was to call Bachmann a threat to the nation, a subversive.
And you and others here pile on the slander with denunciations of Bachmann as a fascist. (Your support of the Insurgency in Iraq suggests you haven't a clue of what the term means.) On top it all the congresswoman is accused of McCarthyism when in fact it is the Left and The Nation crowd that is using Tailguner Joe's method. Obama has not even been elected, yet lefty zealotry and bullying is in full swing with Madame Laheuvel sharpening her knitting needles.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 2:31pm
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 2:31pm
It rants, it raves .. but it doesn't respond
Posted by leftofcenter at 10/24/2008 @ 2:35pm
I've heard a lot of toxic words in my time as Editor of The Nation.
Yes, Katrina, and you've dished out your fair share as well. Your righteous indignation is as appalling as Bachmann's words.
Posted by SimpleJack at 10/24/2008 @ 2:38pm
Oh KVH, you are so full of yourself!! Talk about selfrighteous indignation! You and John Nichols are definately two half peas in a pod. Bachmann spews McCarthyisms and you spew Marxisms. Her comments are no more incendary than yours.
Posted by ACook at 10/24/2008 @ 09:24am | ignore this person | warn this person
.
And apparently, no more incendiary than yours Acook!
.
You should have just hyperventilated and passed out, it would have spared the viewers from listening to your agonizing marxist whine.
Posted by ACook at 10/24/2008 @ 09:24am | ignore this person | warn this person
.
Acook, can we now say that perhaps you should have taken your own advice...
...and spared us from listening to your agonizing 'wingnut' whine?
Posted by Lillian at 10/24/2008 @ 2:41pm
Truthman
You intimate, most people, you presumably among them, don't consider this constitutional republic as fundamentally sound.
Just try changing her, buddy. You'll find out how matters stand.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 2:44pm
...more trying to make them accountable for what they do.
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 10/24/2008 @ 11:30am | ignore this person | warn this person
.
BINGO Pax!
Everyone is free to say **whatever** they like, whether it's true or not, offensive or not, vindictive, inciteful, disparaging, libelous, or whatever.
But then everyone ELSE is just as free to hold you accountable for what you say!
The notion that somehow equates to 'limiting free speech' or trying to 'force people to self-censor' is just...
...ridiculous!
Posted by Lillian at 10/24/2008 @ 2:47pm
the Democrat's nominee wants to be in charge of the same US govt which his friend and close associate, a former Weathermen and an unrepentant bomb thrower
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 2:31pm
You know, just as well as I know, that this is a blatant and stupid lie. It's as much of a lie as calling Obama a muslim.
As much as I don't like BO, there is no need to lie about him.
Doing so does nothing but invalidate you.
Posted by TexasFlood at 10/24/2008 @ 2:49pm
And you and others here pile on the slander with denunciations of Bachmann as a fascist. (Your support of the Insurgency in Iraq suggests you haven't a clue of what the term means.) On top it all the congresswoman is accused of McCarthyism when in fact it is the Left and The Nation crowd that is using Tailguner Joe's method. Obama has not even been elected, yet lefty zealotry and bullying is in full swing with Madame Laheuvel sharpening her knitting needles.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008
BY GOLLY YOUR RIGHT! THANKS HUGO!
(Stated with permission of FZ)
Posted by Truthman at 10/24/2008 @ 2:50pm
I wonder what drugs they shoot that give them that glazed, wild eyed look? Could it be a mental disorder?
Posted by Truthman at 10/24/2008 @ 08:27am
My "Reborn Christian" cousin had that look. So did a friend in San Diego that became reborn after contemplating suicide. Hmmm, I think you're on to something here. :)
Posted by seenile at 10/24/2008 @ 2:51pm
Hi Katrina,
After hearing your comments about this vile person, I went to the computer and subscribed to THE NATION. I figured if someone can stand up and say so much what I felt, I wanted to get her magazine :)
No, I'm not a shill, just a liberal reader!
Ray in Tennessee
Posted by rayrat at 10/24/2008 @ 3:05pm
ACook: You have been blinded by your ideology...
Posted by seenile at 10/24/2008 @ 3:10pm
Acook, can we now say that perhaps you should have taken your own advice...
...and spared us from listening to your agonizing 'wingnut' whine?
Posted by Lillian at 10/24/2008 @ 2:41pm
Hey, mine's is no different from yours.
Posted by ACook at 10/24/2008 @ 3:11pm
Truthman
You intimate, most people, you presumably among them, don't consider this constitutional republic as fundamentally sound.
Just try changing her, buddy. You'll find out how matters stand.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008
BY GOLLY YOUR RIGHT! THANKS HUGO!
(Stated with permission of FZ)
Posted by Truthman at 10/24/2008 @ 3:21pm
Just try changing her, buddy. You'll find out how matters stand.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 2:44pm
Wow!
Posted by seenile at 10/24/2008 @ 3:25pm
Truthman
You intimate, most people, you presumably among them, don't consider this constitutional republic as fundamentally sound.
Intimate : to make known especially publicly or formally : announce
Huh??? (he says scratching his head)
Posted by Truthman at 10/24/2008 @ 3:29pm
Did I really do that? Gosh, I am so sorry.....
BY GOLLY YOUR RIGHT! THANKS HUGO.
(stated with expressed permission of FZ)
Posted by Truthman at 10/24/2008 @ 3:36pm
Hugo-Lying about Obama and Ayers being friends is ludicrous at this point and you,obviously,did not hear or understand what Bachmann said.She,already,concluded that Obama was anti American and was not referring to him,but everyone else she deems to be anti American.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/24/2008 @ 3:37pm
leftofcenter
It was not that "their opinion was different" or that they "opposed the war." It was that they bombed federal buildings and took it on themselves to attempt to violently overthrow the govt of 200 million Americans.
That, in most people's view, was and is un-American. That some like you, and Ayers thought such a recourse justified, as do even now Neo Nazis and Aryan nation and Islamofascist zealots, did not and does not make you, patriots. You were and remain ideologues, screwed up jerks, and criminals regardless of what you tell yourselves. Ayers boasted, after getting off on a legal technicality. I was free as a bird, and guilty as hell. His wife, Bernadine Dohrn even convinced herself that the Manson gang murders were something to celebrate. She spoke admiringly of how those "patriots" had eaten in the presence of their dead victims and had stuck "the pigs" with their forks.
The Weathermen were weirdos, and no one in their right minds, aware of their past, and how they remain unrepentant, thinks them respectable or patriotic. They remain contemptible.
Your conclusion,that Ayers appointed Obama to head his $160 million fund on the basis of a Harvard degree, and not because he knew him intimately and shared his politics, is more idiotic lying and twisting.
You guys have no shame.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 3:40pm
Hugo-Lying about people on here supporting the insurgency in Iraq,whatever that is,is rather paranoid.Do you,only,speak in far right wing talking points or can you think for yourself?
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/24/2008 @ 3:40pm
Hugo-If you do some checking you'll discover that people get to spend large amounts of grant money that is given to them by people they don't know.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/24/2008 @ 3:43pm
That, in most people's view, was and is un-American. That some like you, and Ayers thought such a recourse justified, as do even now Neo Nazis and Aryan nation and Islamofascist zealots, did not and does not make you, patriots. You were and remain ideologues, screwed up jerks, and criminals regardless of what you tell yourselves.
Wow, Hugo you really sound angry and copious with the commas. Is there a positive correlation in that dynamic?
Posted by Truthman at 10/24/2008 @ 3:53pm
You should have just hyperventilated and passed out, it would have spared the viewers from listening to your agonizing marxist whine.
Posted by ACook at 10/24/2008 @ 09:24am | ignore this person | warn this person
.
Acook, can we now say that perhaps you should have taken your own advice...
...and spared us from listening to your agonizing 'wingnut' whine?
Posted by Lillian at 10/24/2008 @ 2:41pm
Hey, mine's is no different from yours.
Posted by ACook at 10/24/2008 @ 3:11pm | ignore this person | warn this person
.
Well thanks so much for making my point Acook!!! As you can see, my comment, IS yours!!
Now all you have to do is explain why you...
...didn't heed the advice you felt complelled to give KVH.
Posted by Lillian at 10/24/2008 @ 3:53pm
ACook: You have been blinded by your ideology...
Posted by seenile at 10/24/2008 @ 3:10pm
No Seenile, I don't think in ideology, I think with some plain common sense. If people like KVH had their way they would permenately gag anyone who ever said something offensive or disagreed with their point of view.
Were you aware that you could go to jail in France if you make any anti-semitic remarks regarding Jews...Bridgette Bardot found out the hard way.
Think about it.
Posted by ACook at 10/24/2008 @ 4:03pm
Why is the left stumbling over itself to insist on patriotism and to try to outdo the right in patriotic fervor?
If my country is responsible for repulsive crimes against humanity, for unprovoked wars of aggression which have left millions dead, for setting up a global network of torture chambers, WHY on earth should I be proud of this? It's absurd.
Let them call us anti-American. Who gives a shit?
Personally, I think calling someone PRO-American is a far more damning slight.
Posted by rykart at 10/24/2008 @ 4:20pm
Hugo-It is impossible to keep a friendship covered up because friends hang around together,go to each others houses on a regular basis,go to sporting events,etc and no one can find any such connection despite desperate attempts by many to find such a thing.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/24/2008 @ 4:31pm
I know it sounds crazy... but I'm starting to think that the Repub/conservative commenters are actually genetically different than humans. Almost every newspaper in the known world says that the McCain campaign is waging one of the most negative elections in the history of American politics. But the 'other side' says NO... Obama is waging a negative campaign. It's those guys, not us.
I think we need to embrace the possibility that they are actually insane... not figuratively. Literally. And that the 'slaver' mentality is still alive and well even though the civil war is over (?).
It's truly frightening that our nation is almost even as far as the sides are concerned... every other person on the street has a 'soundbite' mentality, which means that, being too lazy or prejudiced to read the news and form an actual opinion, they rely on prepackaged one sentence information to decide on what they think. Maybe they will all go live underground in caves. We'll call them the 'Morlocks'. They'll just come out for dinner. Ouch.
Posted by ficheye at 10/24/2008 @ 4:40pm
McCain advisor/endorser Henry Kissinger engineered the murder of hundreds of thousands of men, women and children with high explosives, napalm and village to village massacres but a guy who tried to but a stop to this genocide is a "terrorist"?
Only in America.
Decent people all over the world were elated to see a gaping hole blown out of the side of the Pentagon.
The rest is lies.
Posted by rykart at 10/24/2008 @ 4:42pm
I watched Hardball "LIVE" that day and I was shocked to see the worst of America in Michele Bachmann's idiotic comments and then, thankfully, the best of America in Katrina Vanden Heuvel's brilliant response! I think it is so important for prominent individuals to stand up to stupidity. All injustice needs to succeed is for good people to remain silent. Bravo, Katrina Vanden Heuvel! Bravo!
Posted by CrushInfamy at 10/24/2008 @ 4:47pm
If opposing Israel's disgusting policies is anti-semitic, then anti-semitism is a point of pride for decent people, Jews and non-Jews alike.
If opposing in every possible way America's murderous and obscene foreign policy is anti-American then one must, as a matter of hygiene and self-respect, proudly declare oneself Anti-American.
Posted by rykart at 10/24/2008 @ 5:04pm
darin..
You did great except for posting the link to Pollitt's article and assuming no one would bother to read it in order to cross check the validity of your claim.
Pollitt's article goes on at some length about her thoughts on the meaning of the flag. She basically says the opposite of what your out-of-context snippet implies she said.
Posted by rykart at 10/24/2008 @ 5:15pm
Truthman
You intimate, most people, you presumably among them, don't consider this constitutional republic as fundamentally sound.
Intimate : to make known especially publicly or formally : announce
Huh??? (he says scratching his head)
Posted by Truthman at 10/24/2008 @ 3:29pm
Errr...
1. to indicate or make known indirectly; hint; imply; suggest. 2. Archaic. to make known; announce.
While his syntax, and sentence structure was totally and completely dead wrong (like oh so many of the other things he says), his vocabulary was not.
Posted by TexasFlood at 10/24/2008 @ 7:28pm
The Weathermen were weirdos, and no one in their right minds, aware of their past, and how they remain unrepentant, thinks them respectable or patriotic. They remain contemptible.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 3:40pm
So far, that's the only thing you've said that merits any sort of truth.
Now, as soon as you prove (I'm sure you're on the case as we speak) that Barack Obama was a member of The Weatherman, I will give you a shiny new five dollar bill.
Have fun.
Posted by TexasFlood at 10/24/2008 @ 7:31pm
TexasFlood @ 2:31pm
You call these words of mine "a blatant and stupid lie: "
"Congresswoman Bachmann pointed out, the Democrat's nominee wants to be in charge of the same US govt which his friend and close associate, a former Weathermen and an unrepentant bomb thrower, sought to bring down with violence."
Why, where is my lie? Did not Bachman criticize Obama as a radical for his association with William Ayers who has bombed govt buildings, of which crime he boasted, "to have been guilty as hell"? Was not that Weathermen effort a small but real and violent assault on the US govt, part of of an aspiration to shatter the Republic?
Was the Ayers/Obama association not real?
Finally, does not Obama now hope to head and lead the govt which Ayers sought to destroy?
Then where is my "blatant and stupid lie"? And how is that like calling Obama a Muslim?
All I see is a half wit making a craven show of his virtue by throwing me under the bus.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 7:54pm
i'm nobody at 10/24/2008 @ 3:40pm says:
"Hugo-Lying about people on here supporting the insurgency in Iraq,whatever that is,is rather paranoid.Do you,only,speak in far right wing talking points or can you think for yourself?"
Now you want to weasel out of the fact that much of the Left, and certainly everyone at The Nation wanted the US to be whipped by the Insurgents, and the Iraqi govt defeated, so that the Left's opposition to the invasion and the ousting of Saddam could be justified.
You have the temerity deny the Left's support of the Insurgency, for which the evidence is, for example, all over The Nation's archives and no doubt its fora.
The Left, from the first, wanted Iraq to be a debacle and fiasco. You wanted the US military diverted to Afghanistan where America has no vital interests and where fighting will smolder endlessly and pointlessly. This magazine demanded withdrawal from Iraq for four years. What was that but granting the Insurgency victory. You guys insisted nothing could or should be done, and opposed and ridiculed the Surge, as did Obama. You and he denied its success for as long as you could. When it was no longer deniable, that brough gloom, not joy to Left. But you still cling to hope. Obama might yet succeed in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 8:08pm
i'm nobody at @ 3:37pm says:
"Obama and Ayers being friends is ludicrous".
Why is it ludicrous? Obama moved in ultra left wing circles. His first election was for the seat in the Illinois legislature of Alice Palmer (his friend back then, though no longer) who paraded Obama as her anointed successor. Alice was a radical and on the US Peace Council, a notorious Soviet front organization.
Obama was for 20 years the acolyte of Jeremiah Wright who believes the US govt is villainous , and deserves to shatter. That is very much how Ayers feels, though probably not that Washington has created AIDS to liquidate America's blacks, as Wright does. There is no doubt that Wright was not only Obama's pastor and spiritual guide, and sounding board, but his close personal friend. If they could see eye to eye why is it ludicrous to think Obama could befriend Ayers?
Obama announced his candidacy for the legislature from Ayers living room and to Ayers friends.
They served together on the board of various foundations, including for three years on the Woods Fund.
Obama wrote a rapturous blurb for the cover of Ayers book.
Ayers chose Obama in 1995 to preside over a board that awarded grants from a $160 million fund.
Would a radical like Ayers, and he has not repented his politics to this day, have given such a job to someone whose politics he does not know and thoroughly approve of?
Your cavils are what are ludicrous.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 8:20pm
hugo thinks everyone is in mourning over his beloved Pentagon being attacked, when in fact, most decent folks were euphoric about it.
As to the Trade Towers, we still don't know how many of the "victims" were republican. Very likely most of them, given that the WTC was a command and control center for a terrorist regime. That brings the number of innocent people killed down to a handful, because as Bush made clear--anyone aiding and abetting terrorism is a legitimate military target. Who fits the bill better than republicans? No one, that's who. They have aided and abetted terrorists who launched an unprovoked war of aggression in which 1.2 million people have been killed and a country destroyed.
Terrorism is certainly a legitimate topic. Let's talk about the major league players. Bin Laden is a rank amateur at this game and Ayers--please! He's not even on the map, no matter how hard republican delusional reasoning wants to insist he is.
Posted by rykart at 10/24/2008 @ 9:12pm
bachman has that middle america mom apple pie look of a grown up cheerleader. i am sure other women followeed her drum beat as she is telegenic and speaks well. however her views are clearly dim witted and shallow as hell. hmmmm sort of like a cheerleader in the whitehouse. EVERY THING ELSE IN THEIR SMALL LITTLE MINDS IS JUST AN EXcUSE FOR PERCIEVED CULTURAL DOMINANCE. she was exposed and i am glad she was.
Posted by reality check at 10/24/2008 @ 9:15pm
hugo-One more time.It is impossible to keep a friendship secret and no such friendship can be found to exist.One more time,grant money is frequently given to people to spend even though they never met the person who will spend the money..I have seen blurbs in books written by people who never met the author.Your desperation is astounding.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/24/2008 @ 9:34pm
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 8:08pm
"...This magazine demanded withdrawal from Iraq for four years. What was that but granting the Insurgency victory."
Uhhh...exactly what insurgency would there be w/o the preceding invasion?
If i break in to your house in the middle of the night, and you attack me, am I justified in any response, because you were attacking me?
Posted by Malcontent at 10/24/2008 @ 9:58pm
i'm nobody at 10/24/2008 @ 9:34pm
For the last time, I related here, at least twice, the details of the Obama/Ayers association and friendship. You don't want to accept it because you are constitutionally unequipped for inconvenient facts. Your solution is to ignore what you don't like, or call it lies.
At least you have labeled yourself correctly.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 10:31pm
Malcontent @ 9:58pm
Your willingness to put up with socialist fascist police states that at some time or other attack all their neighbors and bury hundreds of thousands of their own citizens in mass graves, and grope for WMD, etc., does not surprise me.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/24/2008 @ 10:38pm
Okay, well, Hugo is going on ignore.
I like discussion as much as anybody, but you sir need serious psychiatric evaluation.
Posted by TexasFlood at 10/24/2008 @ 10:40pm
hugo thinks everyone is in mourning over his beloved Pentagon being attacked, when in fact, most decent folks were euphoric about it.
As to the Trade Towers, we still don't know how many of the "victims" were republican. Very likely most of them, given that the WTC was a command and control center for a terrorist regime. That brings the number of innocent people killed down to a handful, because as Bush made clear--anyone aiding and abetting terrorism is a legitimate military target. Who fits the bill better than republicans? No one, that's who. They have aided and abetted terrorists who launched an unprovoked war of aggression in which 1.2 million people have been killed and a country destroyed.
Terrorism is certainly a legitimate topic. Let's talk about the major league players. Bin Laden is a rank amateur at this game and Ayers--please! He's not even on the map, no matter how hard republican delusional reasoning wants to insist he is.
Posted by rykart at 10/24/2008 @ 9:12pm
And here we have HUGO's counterpart on the left.
You're disgusting.
Ignored.
Posted by TexasFlood at 10/24/2008 @ 10:44pm
hugo-One more time.It is impossible to keep a friendship secret and no such friendship can be found to exist.One more time,grant money is frequently given to people to spend even though they never met the person who will spend the money..I have seen blurbs in books written by people who never met the author.Your desperation is astounding.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/24/2008 @ 9:34pm
Well it's guilty by association, unless whatever pawn he's currently voting for is the one guilty by association anyway.
Do we have to go through a list of questionable people John McCain happens to know? Sarah Palin is married to a secessionist for god's sake.
A sickening and frankly, sad, display of partisanship and ideological blindness from this person.
Posted by TexasFlood at 10/24/2008 @ 10:52pm
Actually texas, I'm arguing the strict McCain/Bush line. If the WTC were a building the US had attacked in a foreign country, we'd point to the fact that it was a "symbol of the regime," home to weapons manufacturers (like Raytheon and Boeing) and that it was therefore criminal and "cowardly" for the country to sequester civilians in such a "duel purpose structure." We did exactly this, many times in Iraq, with enormous loss of civilian life.
Either it's legitimate or it isn't legitimate. I take no position either way, but merely highlight the hypocrisy.
Posted by rykart at 10/24/2008 @ 10:58pm
Jesus, does "THE KEATING FIVE" ring a bell?
G. Gordon Liddy?
Whatever lunatics he may have known when he was in Vietnam?
The fact that he's sired illegitimate children in different parts of the world? Cheated on his crippled wife?
Etc., etc.
Although that's not why I'm not voting for him, because that stuff does not make a man.
Posted by TexasFlood at 10/24/2008 @ 10:58pm
If you want actual ammunition against BO, why not mention the fact that he's in bed with the very financial institutions he attacks John McCain for being involved in.
That's an ACTUAL problem with Barack Obama.
What happened to attacking him for his lack of experience, something I wholeheartedly agree with?
Posted by TexasFlood at 10/24/2008 @ 11:06pm
TexasFlood-There are a fair number of conservatives who have the same association to Ayers.Must be a massive plot by them,too, to keep this friendship between Obama and Ayers secret.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/24/2008 @ 11:08pm
TexasFlood-There are a fair number of conservatives who have the same association to Ayers.Must be a massive plot by them,too, to keep this friendship between Obama and Ayers secret.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/24/2008 @ 11:08pm
These conspiracy theorists are just as foolish as any of the people who claim Dick Cheney flew a plane into the WTC with a little remote control.
So delusional.
Posted by TexasFlood at 10/24/2008 @ 11:12pm
The fact of the matter is, without hypocrisy, there IS no United States. Hypocrisy is the foundation of this country. No one bothers to reflect upon the absurdity of the Founding Fathers, muttering their phony platitudes about liberty while their slaves stood shackled together under the noonday sun. The whole thing has always been a fraud.
Now we have a napalmer of children lecturing us about "terrorism" and a religious psychotic delivering sermons on climate change.
A preposterous place.
Posted by rykart at 10/24/2008 @ 11:14pm
TexasFlood-I'm a middle of the road type and I've noticed that,while the left has it's share of paranoid types, the modern right wing base seems to all be paranoid and rather delusional.Might have something to do with why so many sane republicans are jumping ship and endorsing Obama.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/24/2008 @ 11:26pm
katrina - i cannot thank you enough for standing up, speaking out and helping to make sense out of this.
the "incident" on hardball was stunning - not no much in its being an unusual sentiment which was expressed , but because of its having become a sentiment so alarmingly common.
it was stunning too in the clarity it finally exposed; that is, the casual intolerance, arrogance, and hatred that has incrementally come to be accepted as the norm in a society that claims to have no room for such attitudes.
too few sane and intelligent voices make themselves heard above the rising din - thank you for being one of the very best.
regards, tom schaller
Posted by twschaller at 10/25/2008 @ 12:38am
HUGO is fighting a war with himself as is McCain. HUGO knows the truth about his ugly right wing party that wants to take over the government and convert it into a Robotic Fascist Christian Nation. His brain is wired to use shortcuts for decision making which eliminates reasoning when racism and prejudice emotions is used to come to conclusions. Hugo is paranoid that the constitution is still protected and will continue to be protected by what he calls liberals and leftist as if George Washington and Jefferson and Adams were right-wing Pro-Christian government REPUBLICANS! HUGO wants to be controlled women! It's the only way he can get off thinking he's a real man! As a sexist he want to use women demagogues. He is a FOLLOWER who needs people who claim to have talked to god to think and decide for him. He's afraid of freedom and uses GOD & JESUS in the most violent ways to imprison a nation under a false denomination who supports WAR & INNOCENT KILLINGS of anyone, including babies and women that are not AMERICAN, yet he thinks he's a Georgian when McCain calls him to abandon his nationality for that of a foreign nation! Soon, if he doesn't get his way he will support the exiles of Americans who do go to his church. His inner circle is filled with fear and insanity! Hugo your right-wing nuts should all move to ALASKA and DRILL BABY DRILL as OUR country moves out of darkness and into the light of progress and a real civilization for everyone!
Posted by Tasia at 10/25/2008 @ 01:28am
HUGO is fighting a war with himself as is McCain. HUGO knows the truth about his ugly right wing party that wants to take over the government and convert it into a Robotic Fascist Christian Nation. His brain is wired to use shortcuts for decision making which eliminates reasoning when racism and prejudice emotions is used to come to conclusions. Hugo is paranoid that the constitution is still protected and will continue to be protected by what he calls liberals and leftist as if George Washington, Jefferson and Adams were right-wing Pro-Christian government REPUBLICANS nuts! These were the men that all agree SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE! HUGO wants to controlled women! It's the only way he can get off thinking he's a real man! As a sexist, he want to use women as demagogues. He is a FOLLOWER who needs people who claim to have talked to God to think and decide for him. He's afraid of freedom and uses GOD & JESUS in the most violent ways to imprison a nation under a false denomination who supports WAR & INNOCENT KILLINGS of anyone, including babies and women just because they are not AMERICAN; Yet he thinks he's a Georgian when McCain calls him to abandon his nationality for that of a foreign nation! UNBELIEVABLE! Soon, if he doesn't get his way he will support the exiles of all Americans who do not go to his church. His inner circle is filled with fear and insanity! Hugo you and all your right-wing fascist nuts should all move to ALASKA with the girl you have the hots for (admit it nasty boy, you lust for another man's wife) and DRILL BABY DRILL as OUR country moves out of darkness and into the light of progress and a real civilization for everyone!
Posted by Tasia at 10/25/2008 @ 01:34am
No Seenile, I don't think in ideology, I think with some plain common sense. If people like KVH had their way they would permenately gag anyone who ever said something offensive or disagreed with their point of view.
Posted by ACook at 10/24/2008 @ 4:03pm | ignore this person | warn this person
.
Really? This is "common sense" to you.
How exactly would "people like KVH" accomplish this "permanently gag" thing Acook?
Do tell.
Posted by Lillian at 10/25/2008 @ 01:50am
Were you aware that you could go to jail in France if you make any anti-semitic remarks regarding Jews...Bridgette Bardot found out the hard way. Think about it. Posted by ACook at 10/24/2008 @ 4:03pm
Well, I don't know if an elected politician in America would be dumb enough to go on a rant about Jews but if they were to I doubt they would stay in office long. Or should. Now if I expand the target of the pol's rant to include Muslims, Alaskans, or any other object of their opportunism, why should it make any difference. A jerk was elected. The jerk was called out. The jerk is gone. (yes yes I know - who is calling whom a jerk?) McCarthy was a jerk. Bachmann was really only suggesting non-specific media conduct a "penetrating" "in-depth" "examination" etc etc of UNAMERICAN members of congress. She is a jerk for creating a whole class of straw people - members of congress who may be "unamerican" by some unspecified (hers? I doubt it - she doesn't have the smarts) criteria. And that KVH was there ("Not one issue discussed!") made a lot of viewers wonder if Bachmann might be better suited employed as a bridge painter :)
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 10/25/2008 @ 02:12am
what an odd thread.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/25/2008 @ 02:25am
STOP USING THE WORD FASCISM IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS.
Posted by TexasFlood at 10/25/2008 @ 03:46am
I believe the article in the Nation concerning Ms. Bachmann, and in turn Ms. Vanden Heuvel's powerful and articulate rebuttal will in large measure be responsible for ousting Ms. Bachmann from Congress.
That said, what can be done about this woman?
AP Oct. 24, 2008 FRANKLIN, Ind. - A Republican county clerk in Indiana said she apologized for distributing to two of her employees an Internet blog posting referring to Barack Obama as a "young, black Adolf Hitler."
This woman's name is Jill Jackson. I would like to see the Nation help Ms. Jackson be removed from office as well.
Posted by iDareDream at 10/25/2008 @ 05:51am
Funny peculiar that so many so many posters here seem not to understand that freedom of speech includes not only the right to say what you think but also the right to respond as emphatically as you wish to what others say. KVH wasn't telling Bachmann to shut up ("self-censor"); she was telling her that she was wrong.
Posted by D. Tirante at 10/25/2008 @ 12:41pm
ACook at 10/24/2008 @ 4:03pm said:
"Were you aware that you could go to jail in France if you make any anti-semitic remarks regarding Jews...Bridgette Bardot found out the hard way. Think about it."
ACook is clearly another nutter. I suppose an unhinged magazine attracts fruitcakes. But the almost total absence of reasonable voices here is surprising.
Anyway ACook is wrong. Brigitte Bardot did not go to jail, she may have been arrested for driving drunk, but not for anti Jewish remarks.
She is an eccentric, an animal rights fanatic and pissed off at Muslims. Her legal troubles relate to that.
France, like other European countries, has racial incitement laws; but I haven't yet heard that they landed Bardot in the hoosegow.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/25/2008 @ 5:38pm
ACook is clearly another nutter. I suppose an unhinged magazine attracts fruitcakes. But the almost total absence of reasonable voices here is surprising. Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/25/2008 @ 5:38pm BY GOLLY YOU'RE RIGHT! THANKS HUGO!!!
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 10/25/2008 @ 8:52pm
A_Pax_On_Your_Houses @ 8:52pm
How do you do it Pax? You are a stunning example of the super-flatulistic wit and expia-bodacious irony lesser fora only dream about.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/26/2008 @ 12:29am
Hugo-ACook is a sweetheart and you are the paranoid nutter who thinks that people can conceal good friendships.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 12:33am
i'm nobody @ 12:33am said:
"ACook is a sweetheart and you are the paranoid nutter who thinks that people can conceal good friendships"
You, like most people here, are terribly confused. It' because friendships can't be concealed that I have an argument.
It is because Obama's relationship with Jeremiah Wright could not be squelched that we know that racist bigot and conspiracy theorist was Obama's spiritual guide and close personal friend for the last 20 years.
It is because Obama's friendship with the former terrorist, William Ayers became public that we know Obama's roots are in the country's most fetid left marshes.
It is because such things cannot be hidden that we know of Obama's relationship with the crooked Chicago real estate developer, Rezko.
The mystery is not, how these relationships remained hidden, they didn't. It is, why they have been ignored, why they don't reflect on Obama?
The answer, I believe, is racism. Criteria which would sink a white politician barely tug at Obama.
We are in effect not electing a president, but making a casting call for a movie. There only the image and voice matter. Thus, the brilliant surgeon or electronic whiz is now often played by a black actor and the drug pusher by a white. Does he fit the part is all that matters, and when that question is asked about Obama, the answer is, he does.
But in real life when we have a sick child, the actual qualifications of the doctor matter. Similarly, when choosing a physician for our country it is fatal to overlook severe disqualifications. The next four years won't be a movie. It is a mistake to let nature imitate art.
(Incidentally, your friendship with the bigoted kook, ACook is also not concealed.)
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/26/2008 @ 5:09pm
Hugo-No one has been able to show that Ayers and Obama are friends,but you already knew that and are being nonsensical,but in a very amusing way.I'm not black and would not pass judgment on Wright and black churches.Of course,McCain has ties to some disreputable people as does Palin,but that seems to be the way it is with politicians who reach that level.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 5:34pm
Hugo-I've never met ACook,but from what I've read on here from her I would probably be more than happy to meet her and strike up a friendship,but we live in different parts of the country and have our lives to lead so such a thing is unlikely.The fact that you made the friendship assumption explains your ignorance as it pertains to Obama and Ayers.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 5:45pm
i'm nobody
You either are stupid or are playing stupid. In either case you are a waste of time and not worth talking to.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/26/2008 @ 7:26pm
Hugo-In other words,you could not think of an intelligent response.Not surprised considering you don't know what constitutes friendship.Glad I don't know you.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 8:27pm
you are a waste of time and not worth talking to. Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 10/26/2008 @ 7:26pm
BY GOLLY etc
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 10/27/2008 @ 03:48am
Free speech? Is it o.k to shout fire in a crowded theater.? Is it OK to say that my neighbor is mean to his dog when he doesn't even have a dog. Is it o.k to say that my wife is a Republican when she is really Democrat? Is it OK for me to claim to be a Catholic when I'm really a Congregationalist? does the Constitution protect blatant lying? Is the constitution an arcane document like Alberto Gonzales claim?
Posted by lachatte at 10/27/2008 @ 07:18am
I just got in my office. Wow, you guys kept it going the whole weekend! I wonder what the record is?
Frosty, your comment, beginning with Golly, is GREAT. Hope ya don't mind my using it so often. I always cite you. However, I would like your written permission so I could add; "I am Frosty Zoom and I approved (the use by others) this message."
Thanks
Posted by Truthman at 10/27/2008 @ 07:45am
KATRINA VANDEN HEUVEL must be crying crocodile tears now, given that Bachmann very likely sunk her once assured reelection with her imbecilic comments on Hardball.
...checked out a few of her clips on youtube...had no idea just HOW nuts this woman is!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ4wtwcrybM
Posted by rykart at 10/27/2008 @ 12:48pm