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RedditAs we head into the final stretch of the election season, alarming reports of dysfunctional voter registration, purges of the rolls, and possible voter suppression are surfacing weekly, if not daily. The National Campaign for Fair Elections' hotline (866.OUR.VOTE / 866.687.8683) is already receiving roughly a thousand calls a day; while the majority of these are requests for information, some concern problems with registration. The New York Times reports that tens of thousands of voters may have been illegally purged from the rolls in swing states. Other news sources speculate there are 600,000 voters at risk of disenfranchisement in Ohio alone. What goes unreported upon amid all this turmoil is how effective the response has been, and what can still be done.
Take Montana. On October 8th, US District Court Judge Donald Molloy issued a scathing ruling denouncing the state Republican Party's effort to challenge the registration of 6,000 voters: "The timing of the challenges is so transparent it defies common sense to believe the purpose is anything but political chicanery." The Montana Republican Party and its leaders, he wrote, "are abusing the process."
The real danger is that the process itself is flawed. "We have an election system that's exquisitely designed for low rates of participation," says Tova Wang, Vice President of Research for Common Cause. "We're expecting increased turnout and we have a system that's not designed to handle it." While these problems are endemic throughout our fractured electoral system, three states--Virginia, Florida, and Ohio--present both the challenges we face and the measures we might take to solve them. All three are closely contested, and an Obama victory will require every one.
• Virginia
Virginia has emerged as one of the crucial battlegrounds of the election, and voters are clearly excited. In 2004, there were 4,517,980 voters on the state's rolls when the registration period ended; this year there are 4,890,393, an increase of nearly 400,000. The 2008 primary saw turnout rise a staggering 266 percent over 2004 (although still only a little more than a quarter of the electorate made it to the polls). If this is any indication of what to expect on election day, advocates fear that the state's laws and protocols are insufficient to handle the high turnout.
A recent report from the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU identified Virginia as one of the least prepared states in the country. The report rated the state's contingency plan in the event of voting machine failures as in need of improvement, and pointed out that Virginia law requires neither a voter-verified paper trail nor a post-election audit of the results. Virginia doesn't even require every poll worker be trained, and allows for a minimum of three poll workers at a given polling place, a standard advocates are concerned is too low (although Board of Elections officials in the state assure them there will be more poll workers than required manning the polls). The state's laws also require that there be only one voting machine for every 750 voters, a ratio Common Cause's Tova Wang calls "enormous."
More disturbingly, Virginia voters have been subject to misinformation campaigns in the recent past. In 2007, Virginia became one of the few states to pass a law banning deceptive practices, making it illegal to deceive voters as to the time and place of the election or their registration status. In an election year that has seen massive increases in turnout among 18-29 year olds (more than 100 percent in at least 11 states, and 95% in Virginia), Obama will need every one of the nearly 138,000 18-29 year olds, many of them presumably students, who turned out to vote in the Democratic primary if he's to overcome Bush's 250,000 vote margin of victory in 2004. So it's worrisome that student registration has been contested in the state, with county registrars reportedly rejecting dorm addresses out of hand or insinuating (inaccurately) that registering to vote in Virginia might affect a student's scholarships or tax status. The Virginia Board of Elections website still sports a residency questionnaire that includes potentially misleading questions.
It's not too late to mitigate, if not overcome, these problems. In the words of Common Cause's Tova Wang: "I don't think it's too late to plan on having emergency paper ballots at the polling place. And I don't think it's too late to ask counties to provide some transparency for their provision of polling machines. And I don't think it's too late, in Virginia or any place else, for the chief elections officer to issue a statement making clear the right of students and others to vote."
• Florida
In the words of more than one election reform advocate: 'Florida is the new Florida.' The state that was decided by 537 votes in 2000 is once again a crucial battleground, with recent polls giving Obama no more than a 5 point lead.
"Florida has this pride in not learning the lessons of the last election," declares Jonah Goldman, director of the National Campaign for Fair Elections. As opposed to Virginia, Florida simply lacks a standard for the allocation of voting machines. Furthermore, any registered voter (or poll watcher) of a county can challenge the right of anyone from that county to vote, a common standard among swing states that Common Cause's Wang declares "is not very effective at preventing the abusive use of caging and challenges." And like Georgia and Indiana, Florida also has a strict voter ID law.
But the most severe threat to the franchise in Florida is the Voter Registration Verification Law, better known as the 'No Match, No Vote' standard. The Help America Vote Act (HAVA) mandated that states establish a statewide voter registration database, and then compare that data to state driver's license databases as well as the Social Security Administration's database. Florida law dictates that if a voter's registration fails to exactly match those other records, that voter must provide proof of their identity to their local board of elections. If they fail to do so before the election, they will have to vote by provisional ballot (and if they want their ballot to be counted, they'll still need to provide the board with proof of their identity within 48 hours). Although Florida's law is, in the words of Tova Wang, "uniquely harsh," Missouri, New Mexico, and Ohio--also battleground states where the election will be won or lost--as well as Georgia all have vague matching standards that could disenfranchise voters.
"Database matching is an inherently flawed process that is too imperfect to allow citizens' right to vote to depend on a successful match," says Adam Skaggs, Counsel at the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU, which waged a year long legal battle with the state over the law. After the NAACP and the Brennan Center failed to overturn the law in the courts, the Florida Secretary of State declared that as of September 8th, it would be 'no match, no vote' for all newly registered voters. Of the more than 375,000 voters who registered in Florida after that date, Skaggs estimates that 15 percent of them (roughly 56,000 voters) initially failed to match. By last Thursday, the Florida Department of State reported that almost 9000 voters had still failed to match. More than half of them are black and Hispanic; more than half are 30 years old or younger; and more than half are Democrats.
All those voters now have just over two weeks to clarify their status, or risk being disenfranchised. But once again, grassroots organizers are on the ground working to preserve the right to vote: Common Cause is undertaking an extensive outreach campaign to reach every one of those voters and assist them in reinstating their registration.
• Ohio
On other hand, Ohio, election advocates agree, is not Ohio. While new Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner has made missteps--her initial refusal to process absentee ballot requests submitted by the McCain campaign because voters failed to check an unnecessary box, for one, although Brunner insisted she was simply obeying the letter of the law--for the most part advocates think she has made great strides in transforming one of the most dysfunctional states of the 2004 election. Advocates cite the state's poll-worker training program as exemplary, and in stark contrast to Florida, Brunner issued a directive instructing local election boards that they should have one voting machine for every 175 voters as well as make their plan for allocating voting machines publicly available.
What about those 600,000 Ohio voters seemingly at risk of being at risk of disenfranchisement? When a routine Board of Elections mailing earlier this year reportedly could not be delivered to 600,000 Ohio voters--plentiful fodder for caging efforts--Brunner directed local election boards that undeliverable mail alone could not be used as grounds for challenging a voter's eligibility. Challenging voters is par for Ohio's course--in 2004, the state Republican Party challenged the eligibility of 35,000 of the state's voters. Since then, the state legislature reformed the laws regulating challenges so that on election day only poll workers can challenge voters, a change advocates expect will dramatically curtail the most egregious challenges.
With challenges in check, Brunner has also defended Ohio's rolls from unnecessary purges. Last Friday, the Secretary of State won a major victory, with the Supreme Court issuing a single paragraph decision overturning a District Court ruling delivered earlier in the week. Brunner has insisted that even if HAVA requires states match their statewide voter registration databases against other databases, the act does not dictate what states must do with the inevitable mismatches. Citing the imperfections of database matching, she has declined to direct county election boards to use these mismatches as grounds for purging voters. Although the Supreme Court's ruling was on fairly narrow procedural grounds--stating that "We express no opinion on the question whether HAVA is being properly implemented"--the Court essentially vindicated Brunner's stance. The decision, according to the Brennan Center's Adam Skaggs, "protects more than 200,000 citizens of Ohio from being disenfranchised because of typos."
So while there has been important and valuable reporting and attention paid to the possibilities of organized voter suppression and election fraud, what may well be a greater threat to a fair and democratic election is legal disenfranchisement and poor preparation. Those in favor of a more just democracy argue that the focus should be on making sure there are suitable numbers of people processing voter registration forms, poll workers, and emergency paper ballots (in the event of voting machine failures) in addition to provisional ballots. Keeping back-up equipment on hand on election day would also be well advised, along with troubleshooting staff that could be dispatched to precincts to deal with problems as they arise.
These common sense measures would go a long way toward insuring that on November 8th we witness a historic election, and not a historic tragedy.
Co-written by Nicholas Jahr, a writer and researcher based in New York who has worked as an international election observer.
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Katrina vanden Heuvel
Thoughts on politics, current affairs, riffs and reflections on what’s in the news and what’s not--but should be.
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Isn't it funny how Vanden Heuvel doesn't say a word in this longwinded whine session about voter fraud that exists on the left side of the spectrum? As if it's ONLY Republicans that monkey with voter registrations. Suuuuure. What a disservice to readers who wish to be educated and informed about problems with our democratic process, wherever they might exist. She is a blind partisan, a propagandist, and an oxygen thief. Shame on her.
Posted by jimmylove at 10/20/2008 @ 1:17pm
thank you kvh! thanks for this article and for everything you are doing. the hardball interview was incredible. thank you. thank you. thank you.
Posted by loveloki at 10/20/2008 @ 1:20pm
'The faux-outrage ... is so transparently faked, so expertly cynical its almost surreal. ... Obama just broke down laughing. I was too. It was the only reasonable reaction....Just to get this out of the way: in the real world, there is no such thing as voter fraud. ...No, of course not. You would have to be a paranoid doofus to believe that. ...In the meantime, it is, as it so often is, up to the media to call this was it is: deranged and paranoid. ' -- Christopher Hayes -- The Nation -- 19 October, 2008 -- http://www.thenation.com/blogs /jstreet/373896/how_i_ committed_voter_fraud?rel= hpbox
Posted by HonestLiberal at 10/20/2008 @ 2:02pm
Katrina, as noted above, you are revealing your essential dishonesty in today's Editor's Cut. Widespread fraud in ACORN registrations is an established fact, with tens if not hundreds of thousands of phony registration forms having been submitted in various battleground states. You must know this is true, and still, you call efforts to root out this fraud 'voter suppression'. Please, Katrina, retain some shred of integrity and stop the lying.
Posted by pontificus at 10/20/2008 @ 2:26pm
I think KVM is still bitter from getting crushed by George Will on Stephanopoulis the weekend before last. After another of her long-winded whine sessions, Will calmly replied, "It would be hard to state the truth with more elegant imprecision." OUCH! Not exactly the treatment she's used to at her wine and cheese parties, I'm sure.
Posted by jimmylove at 10/20/2008 @ 2:54pm
I've often thought that it tends to be a wash between "voter fraud" and "voter suppression"...
with the losing side always complaining the loudest.
Ergo, with Obama's good polling numbers, and talk of a veto-proof Dem Congress...
the RIGHT is now doing the loudest whining (a la "ACORN").
Posted by Maskdelta at 10/20/2008 @ 3:02pm
HI LOKI!
jimmylove:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/autorank
/Articles/VoterFraudProjectVote.jpg
voter fraud is not a big problem.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/20/2008 @ 3:07pm
Pontificus, if you can't tell the difference between submitting phony registration forms for people who are not going to vote in the election (forms flagged whenever possible by ACORN, by the way), and suppressing the votes of actual registered voters, then you're really not prepared to contribute anything useful to this discussion.
Posted by richcarl at 10/20/2008 @ 3:07pm
jeez...a third stolen election and things could get ugly. this is serious stuff. worth fighting for...
Posted by dexter666 at 10/20/2008 @ 3:11pm
Pontificus, if you can't tell the difference between submitting phony registration forms for people who are not going to vote in the election (forms flagged whenever possible by ACORN, by the way), and suppressing the votes of actual registered voters, then you're really not prepared to contribute anything useful to this discussion.
Posted by richcarl at 10/20/2008 @ 3:07pm | ignore
Ponti has yet to contribute any useful comment to any discussion. He does seem to full of information, however, it is mostly WRONG!
Posted by Truthman at 10/20/2008 @ 3:14pm
Liberals would not be so dismissive of the voter registration fraud and ACORN's questionable tactics if it were occurring in places, and among voter blocks, that were predominantly Republican. If that were the case, they'd be raising a big stink. But since it's in urban areas where 90% of the people in question would vote Democrat, they minimize it's impact. Amazing. Anyone who denies this is either naive or lying.
Posted by jimmylove at 10/20/2008 @ 3:18pm
Katrina, Loved ya on msnbc, regarding the evil Congress woman. Wow, what passion!
Posted by Truthman at 10/20/2008 @ 3:18pm
Posted by richcarl at 10/20/2008 @ 3:07pm
Oh yeah? And how do you know that the phony registration forms that ACORN somehow forgets to flag (the states report there have been thousands of them, and that ACORN has been lying about actually flagging them) do not result in phony absentee votes? When you combine this with KVH's the left's attempts to stop the authorities from actually making people prove they are who they say they are, I'd say the overall pattern of fraud is fairly clear.
It seems to me that KVH sees any attempt to make voters prove their ID as 'voter suppression'. Perhaps when it comes to fraudulent votes that ACORN apparently hopes to foment, that's exactly right.
Posted by pontificus at 10/20/2008 @ 3:19pm
Hey PONTI, how about some proof for some of your figures (i.e. hundreds of thousands).
Or did you just make something up again?
Though I did hear that Mickey Mouse registered.
Think he will try to show up?
Posted by Hman23 at 10/20/2008 @ 3:24pm
jimmylove-I would not care if ACORN did this in republican areas because I'm not paranoid and don't think that many people named Mickey Mouse are going to show up to vote.Nor do I believe in massive conspiracies.Doing something like what you guys claim ACORN is doing could affect a local election on a lower state level,but could not affect a POTUS election.Too many people would have to be involved.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/20/2008 @ 3:25pm
5 guilty please for multiple voting in 4 years.
Get real PONTI.
Posted by Hman23 at 10/20/2008 @ 3:26pm
5 guilty pleas for multiple voting in 4 years.
Get real PONTI.
(damn auto spell check)
Posted by Hman23 at 10/20/2008 @ 3:27pm
She is a blind partisan, a propagandist, and an oxygen thief. Shame on her.
Posted by jimmylove at 10/20/2008 @ 1:17pm | ignore this person | warn this person
calling someone an oxygen thief...that you, barry25?
what a nasty, mean thing to say...
what if someone called you the poster child for abortion?
are you not a partisan?
Posted by dexter666 at 10/20/2008 @ 3:29pm
ponti-Yes,that's why both Gore and Kerry won.Because ACORN gave them the election by doing what you claim.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/20/2008 @ 3:31pm
I think that I will legally change my name to Mickey Mouse so I can have some fun at the next election.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/20/2008 @ 3:35pm
Mickey Mouse doesn't have to show up anywhere. All he has to do is mail in his ballot from any valid address in the United States and it will be counted.
At the end of the day, I agree with the premise that the voter fraud issue will not swing the election. I believe Obama has it in hand regardless. What I disagree with is the hypocrisy and the partisanship. If there were efforts to suppress the votes of wealthy white Republicans, do you think KVH or anyone else here would be crying for them? You think she would write this impassioned column about how that disenfranchises them or jeopardizes the democratic process? Please.
This BS is not about asssuring the democratic process as it is about assuring the votes of a group of people who will check the box for Obama (or any other Democrat) at least 85-90% of the time. Let's be honest.
Posted by jimmylove at 10/20/2008 @ 3:36pm
Jimmylove-Do you have any idea how many people would have to be involved in sending in all those phony forms?
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/20/2008 @ 3:41pm
To anyone that wants to bring up ACORN:
MICKEY MOUSE IS NOT GOING TO SHOW UP IN NEVADA WITH AN ID CARD AND CAST A BALLOT!!
GET IT?
Do you understand that difference between fraudulent voter cards being submitted and ACTUAL voter fraud? Someone with a Mickey Mouse and Dallas Cowboys Id's would have to go down and actually cast a ballot to commit voter fraud. Since that is not going to happen, there is NO FRAUD!!
What did happen is that some lazy people wanted to get off of work early and turned in some bogus registration cards with fake names. These bogus cards were pointed out by ACORN officials themselves but ACORN is required to turn in ALL of the cards -fake or not. So to call all of ACORN scandalous or make anything of it is simply retarded.
You know what is actually criminal? The Diebold machines used in the 2000 and 2004 elections that were programmed to flip votes from democrat to Republican. This was on orders from Republicans and one of the programmers did blow the whistle.
You know what else is now criminal? Spreading false information in Virginia to discourage people from voting like the Republicans did in the past.
YOu know what else? How about Karl Rove's tactics where they used the "caging" schemes to disenfranchise mostly black soldiers who were fighting for us in BAGHDAD. Yep... our own military member's votes did not count cause of this scheme.
THAT IS AGAINST THE LAW!!!!!
http://www. rollingstone. com/politics/story/23638322/block_the_vote www. stealbackyourvote. org http://www. gregpalast. com/block-the-vote/
Posted by birdyspice at 10/20/2008 @ 3:56pm
To anyone that wants to bring up ACORN:
MICKEY MOUSE IS NOT GOING TO SHOW UP IN NEVADA WITH AN ID CARD AND CAST A BALLOT!!
GET IT?
Do you understand that difference between fraudulent voter cards being submitted and ACTUAL voter fraud? Someone with a Mickey Mouse and Dallas Cowboys Id's would have to go down and actually cast a ballot to commit voter fraud. Since that is not going to happen, there is NO FRAUD!!
What did happen is that some lazy people wanted to get off of work early and turned in some bogus registration cards with fake names. These bogus cards were pointed out by ACORN officials themselves but ACORN is required to turn in ALL of the cards -fake or not. So to call all of ACORN scandalous or make anything of it is simply retarded.
You know what is actually criminal? The Diebold machines used in the 2000 and 2004 elections that were programmed to flip votes from democrat to Republican. This was on orders from Republicans and one of the programmers did blow the whistle.
You know what else is now criminal? Spreading false information in Virginia to discourage people from voting like the Republicans did in the past.
YOu know what else? How about Karl Rove's tactics where they used the "caging" schemes to disenfranchise mostly black soldiers who were fighting for us in BAGHDAD. Yep... our own military member's votes did not count cause of this scheme.
THAT IS AGAINST THE LAW!!!!!
http://www. rollingstone. com/politics/story/23638322/block_the_vote www. stealbackyourvote. org http://www. gregpalast. com/block-the-vote/
Posted by birdyspice at 10/20/2008 @ 3:57pm
Do you realize that in order for Mickey Mouse to cast a ballot from any address, he would have to be registered as an absentee ballot? And that numbered ballot would have to be sent to an address where somebody actually resides and fills it out then sends it in?
What we've seen from the bogus applications sent in from those $8 an hour workers from Acorn who just wanted to get off work early is just a bunch of silly names with bogus addresses. These bogus addresses included non occupied homes and business addresses.
For these fake registrations to cause any damage to the election, a person would have to be at said address when these absentee ballots were delivered, fill them out and send them in.
I hardly believe that Acorn has operatives waiting at these fake addresses for these pieces of mail to arrive to do this. Also, I hardly believe that they're intercepting mail addressed "Mickey Mouse" who is signed up at an address for the local Kinkos in order to commit such fraud.
Most important, these registration cards were not even signed up for absentee status for this potential fraud to occur. It's just not going to happen. AND... no one has a Mickey Mouse Id to go down to their local polling place to vote on election day.
This whole Acorn thing is just plain stupid.
Posted by birdyspice at 10/20/2008 @ 4:38pm
What has happened is this:
The Republican voter suppression tactics include disenfranchising those by using one popular caging scheme, experts say, involves mass mailings sent to voters at their listed addresses. If the mail is returned as undeliverable to an address, partisan operatives seek to have that voter removed from the rolls.
But such efforts only TARGET minority neighborhoods and often snag the poor, who move more frequently, and college students, whose addresses can change several times within years. AND MINORITY MILITARY MEMBERS WHO ARE SERVING IN BAGHDAD.
This sounds all good though, right? I mean.. doesn't it just sounds like Republicans are doing the honorable thing by making sure only eligible people vote, right?
WRONG!! They don't mass mail these to EVERYONE to ensure everything is kosher.. they don't mail these to white, republican neighborhoods who would be disenfranchised the same.. they only target democratic, minority and poor areas.
It was found out that Karl Rove used this tactic even against military members. See.. a black man in the military can't answer his mail so this mass mailing will disenfranchise him. They sent these to Jacksonville, Florida areas for instance. THIS IS ILLEGAL.
Of the voters turned away in Florida, 54 percent of them were black. These were not criminals. Turns out that tactics used include disenfranchising anyone with a similar sounding name to any known felon. This is racist!! White republicans don't have names like "Juan Garcia" or "Jamal Jackson" Jeb Bush had installed policemen at poor neighborhoods polling places on election day. Why? Cause he knew these people would protest. And protest they wanted but were threatened with arrest.
DEMOCRACY IS BEING THREATENED IN THIS NATION!
Posted by birdyspice at 10/20/2008 @ 4:52pm
LvLiberty-Polls have nothing to do with the fact that Mickey Mouse and Mary Poppins are registered to vote and are based on phone calls to real people which is why they tend to be accurate when looked at from a scientific point of view.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/20/2008 @ 5:07pm
That's just great that there is evidence of Acorn $8 an hour workers trying to get off early that made bogus applications for voting.
THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT MARY POPPINS, DICK TRACY, AND MICKEY MOUSE AREN'T GOING TO VOTE.
This whole thing is ridiculous. Why in the world aren't you all reading about the Diebold machines that had it in their coding to flip democrat votes to republican? THAT IS ACTUALLY SOMETHING THAT AFFECTS THE ELECTION.
How about the fact that our own Republican leaders work to disenfranchise minorities currently serving in our military?
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!! Fake applications do not result in ballots being entered for fake, deceased individuals with kinko's and Walmart addresses. No one at Walmart is answering mail for "Mickey Mouse" to cast a ballot on his behalf.
This argument is BOGUS!!
What some Acorn workers did was bull for sure. But to say that it has anything to do with Obama or that it is "voter fraud" is an absolute lie. To say that it has any bearing on this election is absolutely false as well.
The only people that can complain about this is ACORN becaus they are the ones who got ripped off by these workers who didn't want to do a full days worth of work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by birdyspice at 10/20/2008 @ 5:16pm
2,000 bogus registration forms do not affect the 200,000 to 400,000 legit new registrations in favor of Obama.
So to say that this small number is affecting "emotions" is simply bogus.
The fact is, new registered voters outnumber republicans almosts 2 to 1. Young people are simply more liberal. These are facts.
But I guess Republicans want to cry over something when they lose. They don't want to admit that they'd lose over substance.
Posted by birdyspice at 10/20/2008 @ 5:20pm
LIBERTY -
Who did Mickey Mouse say he planned to vote for in the new Gallup poll?
Posted by Hman23 at 10/20/2008 @ 5:33pm
But I guess Republicans want to cry over something when they lose. They don't want to admit that they'd lose over substance.
Posted by birdyspice at 10/20/2008 @ 5:20pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Are you kidding? The 2000 election was "stolen" in Florida from Al Gore.....who merely needed to WIN HIS OWN STATE and Florida would not have mattered. Yes, Gore could have lost Florida by ONE MILLION votes, and still won the election simply by winning Tennessee. Do the electoral math. What kind of loser can't win their own state? Al Gore.
Or, John Kerry was "swiftboated" in 2004....when the real reason he didn't win was his woeful inability to connect with anyone who he didn't perceive to be as evolved and sophisticated as him. He knocked it out of the park in San Francisco though. What kind of loser couldn't beat W in 2004? John Kerry.
If it's not the Supreme Court's fault, it's Karl Rove's fault. If it's not his fault, it's Ralph Nader's fault. If it's not his fault, it's the vote suppressors' fault.
And the Republicans cry? Please.
Posted by jimmylove at 10/20/2008 @ 6:10pm
These ACORN stories take away from what may be remembered as a revolutionary campaign run by a brilliant man. Barack Obama is changing (for the good) the way elections work. He has built the broadest network of grassroots organizers, perhaps ever. Despite great economic uncertainty, his supporters donated to the campagin in record numbers in September, again in small <$100 increments. He is drawing volunteers from all walks of life. He has done more to unite this country with his executive authority as CEO of this campaign than W has done as President for the last eight years.
And God willing (yes, you can be a Democrat/liberal and be religious), his victory in November will be so decisive that it will spurn a political movement which will render the Republican part irrelevant for a generation.
To everyone here, make sure you volunteer to be a poll checker on Election Day. We must remain vigilant, however I believe the conservatives are in the final death throws of their insurgency against a wave of liberalism which is about to come.
Posted by DGKusel at 10/20/2008 @ 6:21pm
And the Republicans cry? Please.
Posted by jimmylove at 10/20/2008 @ 6:10pm
This coming from someone who is already making up excuses two weeks BEFORE the election!
LOL!!!
Posted by Hman23 at 10/20/2008 @ 6:23pm
@jimmylove
it is fact that both gore and kerry won the popular vote.
it is also fact that gore was going to win in florida when the supreme court magically decided they were going to suspend the recount.
it is fact that these voter machines were rigged.
these are facts, stupid. if you want to see our democracy flushed down the toiled, then by all means, argue for the ugly side. you are only arguing against everything america stands for.
if we have rigged elections, then we are no better than those that are against us. WE are the third world nation.
we all know good and well that post voting poll numbers favored both gore and kerry by large margins. NEVER before in history were these post polling numbers so off. and these times it showed the numbers being off by as much as 20%.
You don't see the corruption in your party? reallY? you don't read? you didn't see the evidence of the voting machines being programmed to favor the republicans? you didnt see how jeb bush delivered the votes to his brother? you didnt see how bush's first cousin awarded florida to george on fox news? you don't see how they target democratic neighborhoods? you don't seee how they target minorities in our military? you don't see how they lie and distort facts?
omg.. keep drinking the koolaid, man. you're a lost cause.
Posted by birdyspice at 10/20/2008 @ 6:41pm
and some of the biggest sh*t of all. I am white. I live in a white neighborhood. My older brother and sister are black just like Obama. For some reason, they having trouble with their registrations. I have not.
What's troubling about this is that I have just been married in the last 90 days moving to a different place. My sister and brother have beeen married for umpteeth years but they've seen that they and there neighbors have been questioned based on where they live.
Why hasn't anyone questioned me? I haven't even changed my name on my Dl or SS Card. I just registered to vote. Where are the questions for me? There is none. I have a white name in a white neighborhood and i claimd to be "non-partisan".
If you don't see the racism going on in your world, then no one needs to look any further than my own backyard - my family.
I have seen firsthand how we're treated differently. It's ridiculous. The scariest thing of all: my brother was a Marine for 12 years. They tried to disefranchise him. My brother, a college educated, christian man was disenfranchized.
Now.. put that in your pipe and smoke it.
I am sick of Republicans acting like this stuff is legit.. They don't know.. they don't see it everyday. I happen to be a part of this "grand" race and I get to share it among my friends and biracial family.
You guys just don't get it. Unless you're there in the dumps seeing what they do, you just don't get it!!!! You're over there in your suburbs talking how everything is "ok"... blah blah blah...
You need a reality check. You need to come down to these polls when minorities are locked out for 12 hours and then you'll see just what we're talking about.
Us whites waited for maybe 10 minutes to vote and we were complaining about THAT!!
Posted by birdyspice at 10/20/2008 @ 7:06pm
Hey Birdy,
I think it's time for your Xanax. I also come from a bi-racial family (I have a half-sister that is black and a half-brother that is Latino), I am not a Republican, and I don't live in the suburbs. I just hate leftwing elitist crybabies, particularly those self-righteously believe that liberals are above dirty politics, corruption, and fraud. These are not the dominion of "the right", and any honest person knows it. If you don't, I think it's time to look in the mirror before you accuse me of drinking Kool-Aid.
But it's nice of you to call me stupid, simply because I disagree with you. It's just typical of the view of the leftwing elites...who preach open-mindedness and free speech...unless you disagree of course. Amazing.
Congrats on your nuptials. And thanks to your brother for his service to our great nation...the greatest on earth.
Posted by jimmylove at 10/20/2008 @ 8:00pm
Actually, I guess I'm from a tri-racial family!
Interestingly, each of them are Democrats who are successful and happy, register to vote AND vote quite easily, and have never been whined about perceived systemic or institutionalized racism that no longer exists.
Posted by jimmylove at 10/20/2008 @ 8:07pm
@jimmylove
I think it's time for your morphine because you obviously need to be committied.
"I just hate leftwing elitist crybabies," only proves you're out of touch and just like McCain, out of time.
Yeah... Me and my older brother and sisters who are black and native american indian are such elitist crybaby snobs.
You wanna know the funniest part?
Never in history has a black man ever been accused of being "elitist".
But that is what you crazy right wingnuts accuse Obama of being.
And that is what you said about me and my family today.
It is HILARIOUS that just yesterday, you and your kind said my family should be on the back of the bus but today you call us "elitist".
Wow.
Posted by birdyspice at 10/20/2008 @ 8:41pm
"Your example means nothing. My bi-racial family's experience cancels your experience. Not only my wife, but my 3 step-sons, and my extended family don't have those same problems. I'm not saying it doesn't happen and that it's not wrong when it does. I just don't believe using my own family experience that it is as widespread as you are trying to indicate."
**Merely knowing a black person doesn't count. that's why it's that huge joke when white people say, "i know a black guy" or Palin says " i have a good gay friend"
it doesn't matter if you two white people know a couple of minority people to stand here on this post and say you know a damn thing about them.
the bottom line is that having step kids or a wife or whatever that is a part of a different race doesn't make you an authority to say anything about them.
but while i sit here while my brother advises me in his actual experience with racism trumps what you have to say.
i am a white (actually native american indian) that grew up defending my brothers and sisters. don't you dare EVER try to tell m because you married someone of a different race that you EVER dealt with what i did or my family did growing up when we were just little kids
(expletive( you!!!!!!!
to pretend you know anything about standing in the rain for 12 hours at the voting booths while machines were "broken" is beyond comprehension.,
I'm sick of you people saying because you merely know one person of color makes you some sort of expert on the actual trials and tribulations these people have been through.
I've been there with my Marine brother. Arugably, he is more American than me. I have unique experience to see how two equal siblings were treated differently based on our race.
Posted by birdyspice at 10/20/2008 @ 8:56pm
don'te tell me about racism. my bro just reminded me of something:
many years ago, our city had a float to include in big parade in a major city. ALL of use that contributed went out in our own cars to not only watch but contribute or be on the float itself.
As we left in our caravan which included whites, hispanics, and blacks, for whatever reason, two of our cars that were all traveling at the same speed were pullled over by these big city cops.
im sure you can guess that the two pulled over was my black brother's car and the hispanics. funny, right?
yeah.. i saw in the rear view and pulled over too.
I was angry with the police. they claimed that my brother an a red light. i knew that was crap because my other friend went through just fine without being pulled over.
those cops were there checking my brother's heartrate claiming that he must be on coke.
i yelled at them and said the light was green. but they weren't counting on a white girl challenging them. i was angry. i was pissed. i told them where we just came from and thy were being racist. i demanded a supervisor right away.
those cops let my bro and his friend go almost right away. they tried to say, "oh.. i just thought i heard a heart murmer and i just had his health in mind". they said "sorry".. we were just doing our job.
SHUT UP!!!!!!! bullsh*t!!!!
They racially profiled my brother - a guy that was on leave from the marines.. and they were sorry for doing it only cause a white girl called them on it. I'm sick of you people saying racsim doesn't exist. I have seen it first hand!!
Posted by birdyspice at 10/20/2008 @ 9:14pm
I never accused Obama of being an elitist, nor your family. You're inferring that because you desperately want to place me into a category of people you hate. I don't know if you're an elitist crybaby...not to bruise your ego, but frankly, I could care less. But you sure are defensive about it, so you're not making a very good case for yourself if you think I'm accusing you of that. I'll overlook this possible self-incrimination and give you the benefit of the doubt.
I am accusing Katrina of being an elitist, which is how this all got started. I also accused John Kerry of it, and frankly, I'm not alone. But you decided to set your sights on me, and insulted me by calling me stupid because you don't agree with me. Then, most recently, you called me a racist by saying that I (and my "kind") said that your family should be on the back of the bus. I have a black sister and a Latino brother...remember? Not to mention a Latina wife born in Mexico City. The only thing I said about your brother is that I honored his service to our nation. And you think conservatives are divisive? Wow.
I haven't been called stupid very often, and I've NEVER been called a racist. I never thought I would be accused of both in the same day. I'm afraid this says more about you than it does about me, but since Jesus would forgive you...I will too. :)
Posted by jimmylove at 10/20/2008 @ 9:18pm
And btw, only an idiot would say racism does not exist. Racism has been an inevitable part of human history, and I'm sure will always exist to some extent. It's relative, not absolute.
But the type of systemic and institutional kind of racism that we used to have in this country is dead. In less than a month, we'll have an African-American president. I think that says it all. The sky is the limit for every American.
The cops that pulled your brother over should have been fired or at least written up. They're jerks...but they do not represent any institution in America...not anymore anyway.
Posted by jimmylove at 10/20/2008 @ 9:29pm
but, dangit, something my bro just reminded me that i forgot to say:
my mother which is also his mother is a 911 dispatcher. My father, his stepdad now, is a sheriff deputy.
My father has absolutly said that minorities are pull over in disproportionate numbers. It was my OWN father that told my older brother to be especially careful because of the racism even though he was driving the family car.
Luckily for my brother, the milliion times he was pulled over and I was not, as a white looking girl and he a black looking boy, they'd look up the license and let us go.
But would if my brother wasn't a marine or a stepson of a sheriff? My brother would have been held on bogus accusations. I'm sick of you people pretending this sh*t no longer exists.
I am the family that is sure proof that it does.
Please... reject McCain/Palin and their racist tactics.
Posted by birdyspice at 10/20/2008 @ 9:30pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/20/2008 @ 7:57pm Your example means nothing. My bi-racial family's experience cancels your experience.
You are officially on my "whacko" list after reading this strangely familiar response. It reminds me of the Pokemon type trading card games my kid loved to play when he was little. Minus the racial thing this is what the kids used to say to each other as they conducted their "turns" or "plays."
"Your tendril-whip has no effect on me because I summon AGILITY!"
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 10/20/2008 @ 9:47pm
. Whew! Hot words, man. Settle down, folks. Racism is alive everywhere in the world albeit at varying degrees and spread of influence and almost always cut both-ways.
The thing to get het up about is maintenance of vestiges of racisim affecting the outcome of policy decision starting with elections of public officials. Episodic or anecdotal experiences can fire enthusiasm in waging battles and are useful if they shed light on what to do to minimize if not totally erase the recurrence of such. An essential step on this is, as America's Founding Fathers emphasized, eternal vigilance. Go out. Organize. Divide and coordinate areas of responsibilities.
If the Democrats feel they are (again?) to be cheated, then they're failing in their task of vigilantly protecting the electoral process hereabouts -- haven't they some 8 years to do so counting only the last two elections? If they get cheated again, well, perhaps they deserve to be cheated. Whining is such a blah.
So tell us: What have you done along this concern? Do you think preaching to or upbraiding the Republicans is the thing to do for this problem? (A vice versa question.) Eloquence alone can not ensure victory at the polls, you know. Neither is it all that important in being presidential... (That is, if you can not ensure the electors' votes, well, you fail the first test of leadership.)
Will we witness another "meltdown" of the electoral process? (And all those millions of dollars contributed to the effort gone where the mortgage premiums of thousands went.) .
Posted by AJdlReyes at 10/20/2008 @ 10:13pm
hi frosty!
:)
Posted by loveloki at 10/20/2008 @ 10:28pm
Posted by loveloki at 10/20/2008 @ 1:20pm
Wow ... welcome back Loveloki ... good to see you around. Here you go, a little sumthin, sumthin I put together for my students (check out the BBC link on the page as it pertains to this thread...and the McCain supports in line is kinda scary)
http://home.avenuebroadband.com/~dvaughn58/campaign08.html
Posted by leftofcenter at 10/20/2008 @ 10:53pm
lvliberty hates liberals,but lives in a very liberal state where his biracial family is accepted and what he needs to do is move them to one of our more conservative states in one of the more conservative areas in one of those states to get a lesson in reality.He will go running back to the liberal state.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/20/2008 @ 11:14pm
Katrina,
I was complete and amazed at your response on MSNBC. Your an intellectual at her finest. I'm proud to hear your opinion and I hope to hear it more often. As a legal resident and not being able to vote in the next election, I supported Ralph Nader when I was 17 holding signs at major intersections:. Thank you for your opinion and your voice your voice counts for many of us who can't vote. Thank You.
Obama 08
Posted by Burnout at 10/20/2008 @ 11:29pm
Posted by jimmylove at 10/20/2008 @ 8:00pm | ignore this person | warn this person
if after the last few years you buy into that bullshit about both sides being equally iniquitous you are either ignorant, an idiot, an ideologue, or some combination of the three.
i'm not saying the dems are perfect...far from it. but the lie that the dems are just as bad as the repugnants just serves the cause of the repugnants.
perhaps they actually believe such. empathy challenged assholes DO have a hard time understanding their moral/ethical superiors and those who do bad deeds do ever bullshit themselves by telling themselves everyone else is doing it too.
and those antisocial personality types that seem to so thoroughly infest the modern republican party that are honest to themselves have no problem obfuscatingly accusing their opponants of their own iniquity.
they are sociopaths, after all.
Posted by dexter666 at 10/21/2008 @ 12:00am
Systemic and institutional racism is not dead. The law is racist (see Critical Race Theory). The clearest example of that is looking at the difference between the punishments for crack and cocaine possession. You have to possess 12-times as much cocaine as crack to receive the same punishment. How was the 12-times amount arrived at? It was an arbitrary number that Congress decided on. They are essentially the same drug, but look who uses each of them. And Obama hasn't won yet, so you can't say that's an example of how far we have come and how blacks can achieve anything now. The polls show that Obama's lead is narrowing as the election nears, and right as there is talk about Rev. Wright coming back into McCain's bag of tricks. People can say that they're legitimately concerned about national security or protecting their investments, but it really boils down to racism and classism. And the fact that such things actually work and influence a person's vote says a lot about this society.
Posted by dubbs33 at 10/21/2008 @ 12:08am
hi leftofcenter! thanks. good to "see" you too.
:)
i'm still here reading most of the time... just haven't felt like posting. i couldn't get your link to work. but i'll try it again.
Posted by loveloki at 10/21/2008 @ 01:17am
Your example means nothing. My bi-racial family's experience cancels your experience.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/20/2008 @ 7:57pm
i'll take your negro, and raise you two jews and a laotian.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/21/2008 @ 01:33am
Not only my wife, but my 3 step-sons, and my extended family don't have those same problems. I'm not saying it doesn't happen and that it's not wrong when it does. I just don't believe using my own family experience that it is as widespread as you are trying to indicate.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/20/2008 @ 7:57pm
Not only myself, but my wife, my son, and my friends don't eat meat. I'm not saying it doesn't happen and that it's not wrong when it does. I just don't believe using my own family experience that it is as widespread as you are trying to indicate.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/21/2008 @ 01:37am
Posted by dexter666 at 10/21/2008 @ 12:00am
beautiful, ibble. and so true
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/21/2008 @ 01:33am
hilarious, frosty. good one.
leftofcenter, i found a pretty funny one under--dvaughn58/gop2008. but i can't find--dvaughn58/campaign08.
Posted by loveloki at 10/21/2008 @ 01:45am
hey loki,
your vote looks like it may actually mean something.
poor larry,
his vote is worthless.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/21/2008 @ 02:13am
i'll take your negro, and raise you two jews and a laotian.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/21/2008 @ 01:33am
Frosty, that was fab! My side hurts from laughter.
Posted by Truthman at 10/21/2008 @ 07:56am
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/20/2008 @ 7:57pm i'll take your negro, and raise you two jews and a laotian.
The gods must be crazy
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 10/21/2008 @ 08:58am
Isn't it funny jimmylove how most of the cheating in recent years has come from the Republican's! They haven't won an election in years they didn't cheat at. But, they are always the first to accuse the Democrats of doing it. We have already figured out what this ACORN flap is about. When the Republican's lose (which they are likely to due to ineptness) they can instantly point to ACORN and start screaming. Talk about a sorry bunch of whiners and losers. As always you keep reminding me why I stopped voting Republican and haven't been the slightest bit sorry I did!
Posted by ganddw42 at 10/21/2008 @ 09:59am
We Republicans shouldn't be upset about the Democrats stealing the election by voter fraud. Who do you think they learned it from?
Posted by abell12ct at 10/21/2008 @ 10:18am
Anyone who knows anything about voter fraud knows that problems with multiple voting are miniscule.
The Repubs exploit the electorates ignorance of this fact every election cycle. It is voter supression through Repub tactics like voter caging and voter I.D. legislation that is their stock and trade. They have to steal elections because otherwise they can't win them.
Fooled Again by Mark Crispin Miller and a number of books by Greg Palast explain all this in detail.
Unfortunately not to many people read anymore..
Posted by chaoszen at 10/21/2008 @ 10:34am
Speaking from personal experience, crack is much more dangerous and addictive than cocaine. To say they are the same drug is wrong. It takes about 12 grams of cocaine to make 1 gram of crack. I can't remember the exact ratio because I was whacked out of my mind at the time. but maybe that is where they got the ratio. That being said, I don't think that increasing jail time is the right way to go. What is needed is 12x the effort and money to help people get off crack.
Posted by abell12ct at 10/21/2008 @ 10:37am
I believe that all this whining and fussing the Neocons are doing with ACORN is just a prelude to contesting the election results in November.
That will be their last ditch effort to throw a cloud over the election.
Posted by chaoszen at 10/21/2008 @ 10:46am
Posted by abell12ct at 10/21/2008 @ 10:37am
????????...
Posted by chaoszen at 10/21/2008 @ 10:47am
????????... Posted by chaoszen just responding to a post by dubbs33
Posted by abell12ct at 10/21/2008 @ 10:57am
If we can get a 15 point lead in the polls by Nov 3 I would say that it would be near impossible for the cons to steal this election. We may already be there however.
I think the polls are not accurate due to methods of voter polling. Not many younger voters have land lines anymore. So I think we already may have a big enough lead to "steal proof" this election.
Which makes it even more important to do what is necessary to get younger voters to the polls.
Posted by chaoszen at 10/21/2008 @ 11:00am
yes frosty. thankfully the voter suppression tactics were nipped in the bud here in montana. too bad that's not the case everywhere.
Posted by loveloki at 10/21/2008 @ 11:01am
Posted by loveloki at 10/21/2008 @ 11:01am
Maybe Montana will set an example and start a "trend". That would be a refreshing change and a "good on ya" for Montana.
Posted by chaoszen at 10/21/2008 @ 11:10am
I used to live in Lolo near Missoula. Great State.
Posted by chaoszen at 10/21/2008 @ 11:13am
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/20/2008 @ 7:57pm Your example means nothing. My bi-racial family's experience cancels your experience.
I think every example means "something." And I find the notion of experiences cross-cancelling during debate to be absurdity, that's all.
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 10/21/2008 @ 11:16am
If lvlibery ever gets out of a liberal state he will discover just how widespread racism really is.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/21/2008 @ 11:58am
Posted by loveloki at 10/21/2008 @ 01:45am | ignore this person | warn this person
hee hee - how you doin love?
Posted by dexter666 at 10/21/2008 @ 12:20pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/20/2008 @ 7:57pm Your example means nothing. My bi-racial family's experience cancels your experience.
And in afterthought, calmed-down, I am sincerely sorry for having dissed you as whacko rather than the notion you presented. It was itself rather childish and I hope you will accept my apology for this. I'm human. I think.
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 10/21/2008 @ 12:57pm
Your example means nothing. My bi-racial family's experience cancels your experience. Not only my wife, but my 3 step-sons, and my extended family don't have those same problems. I'm not saying it doesn't happen and that it's not wrong when it does. I just don't believe using my own family experience that it is as widespread as you are trying to indicate.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/20/2008 @ 7:57pm
B.S. Liverlips. Try coming on down to the good ole south come election time. The white burbs neighborhoods can find free parking, get in and vote and be done in minutes.
Try Fulton County in Atlanta and see if that's the case. Inner city folks don't get the free parking and may have to walk blocks to get to their polling place only to stand in line because amazingly enough only one in three of the machines for 1000 people is working.
Then there is always the old put the voting area on a one way street and then block the one way so nobody can get to the building to vote.
You continue to post your lies and B.S. and hide behind God, and your black family members, but you know damn well that you are lying rev boy. Do the black folks in your family vote the same way as you and hold your ultra conservative views?
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/21/2008 @ 2:12pm
Thanks for this article. A good place to start in making it a successful election, however, is getting the date right. The election is on November 4th, not November 8th.
Posted by bridoc at 10/21/2008 @ 2:17pm
Wow.. this exchange was almost like watching a tennis match...I was so engrossed in the "conversation", that I didn't hear someone in the same room talking to me! It certainly is food for thought.
Posted by graywolf765 at 10/21/2008 @ 2:42pm
Ok then Jimmylove - why don't you enlighten us? What evidence do you have (key word here being evidence).
Posted by tim4change at 10/21/2008 @ 2:57pm
Okay, so let's see how many of you can tell the difference between voter fraud, election fraud and voter registration fraud ?
From the posts I've read, not many of you know.
Please educate yourselves and read - that means turning off FOX news, CNN and all the other MSM stations you get your information from.
Mark Crispin Miller is a Professor of Media, Culture and Communication at New York University. Miller earned his bachelor's degree from Northwestern University in 1971, and his doctorate in English from Johns Hopkins University in 1977. Although he specialized in Renaissance literature, Miller is best known as a media critic. Before joining New York University, Miller served as director of film studies at Johns Hopkins University.
He has written books like FOOLED AGAIN: THE REAL CASE FOR ELECTORAL REFORM and he is the editor of LOSER TAKE ALL: ELECTION FRAUD AND THE SUBVERSION OF DEMOCRACY.
Go ahead - I dare any of you to just read.
Posted by timenotonmyside at 10/21/2008 @ 4:12pm
Okay, so let's see how many of you can tell the difference between voter fraud, election fraud and voter registration fraud ? Posted by timenotonmyside at 10/21/2008 @ 4:12pm
Well, the 2000 election would fit the category of election fraud....ie the supreme court appointing the president of the United States. We were hoodwinked into thinking our votes actually counted.
What I was bringing up here is voter intimidation tactics as well as election fraud.
We need to overhaul our federal election system. If it's federal, it should be run by the federal government, not the states. All federal elections including congress should fall under federal jurisdiction and the approach should be uniform state to state and the friggin election day should be a holiday so everyone can vote and take part if they want to.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/21/2008 @ 4:30pm
Why can't voter registration and actual voting just have the same guidelines nationwide?
How about Oregon - by mail?
I've been voting in Maryland and upstate New York since 1963. Never had to show ID. Just gave my name which they checked on their list.
Only had to show my card once when two precincts voted in the same school - so I would know whether to turn left or right.
Florida was ridiculous Monday - four to six hours in line while each and every driver's license was checked against Voter ID card, by machine!
Posted by max843 at 10/21/2008 @ 4:39pm
Obama's "Common Sense" solutions: 1) Create American Jobs by increasing personal and corporate taxes 2) Deal with rising inequality by making those that already pay the vast majority of taxes pay even more (check it out at www.irs.gov). The top 50% of income earners paid 97.1% of all federal income taxes in 2006. How about ways in which we can help the bottom 50% participate rather than just receive? (better eductaion, help with dislocation, re-training, etc) 3) Maintain American flexibility and innovation in the face of an increasingly competitive world by creating more entitlements, regulations and opening the door to stronger unions 4) Convince Iran and other would-be proliferators to give up their nuclear ambitions by slapping them with lofty speeches 5) Move the US to the left while all other leftist nations are moving to the right Does any of this matter? Or is it completely trumped by the fact that he's a great speaker, elegant, smart, looks presidential?
Posted by FairShare at 10/21/2008 @ 4:57pm
With some people bringing up ACORN (28 donations garnered by me since last week, by the way), can someone please give me the data on how many convictions of actual voter fraud involving ACORN have been handed down--cases where people voted illegally. If memory serves, that number involving all registrants--not just those signed up by ACORN--has been about five a year under the Bush Administration.
FairShare wrote that Obama wants to "Move the US to the left while all other leftist nations are moving to the right." Not getting into Venezuela and Bolivia, as well as quite a few other South and Central American nations, how much further to the so-called right could we actually go? If nothing else, would not "common sense" say that things are just a slight bit fucked up in this country? Or maybe I am missing something on how well the economy is doing these days and how fun and exciting the military life is?
Posted by onthehelm at 10/21/2008 @ 5:20pm
I really shouldn't spend so much time reading this blog, but it sort of gives me an anthropological thrill and there are some funny people writing stuff here.
But the thing that really amazes me are all those like lvliberty1, FairShare, jimmylove et al who are obviously right wing, seem not too well informed, and spend time reading and blogging on a rather left leaning periodical.
Shouldn't they be boning up on some right wing broadsheet so they can try and win votes from the so called "undecideds" for those bullies in the WhiteHouse?
Maybe they find the writings of their own pundits less interesting to read, or the blogs are lame, or they can't get a rise or heard there?
Makes for interesting reading...sometimes.
KVH seems to me to be pretty fast on the draw and full of info, and of course has her opinion, which is why she writes for the Nation. I read her with relish and am happy to top my facts with some from her pages aswell as others. I don't get why a critique of the other side constitutes whining. It is just a critique.
I go to www.RealClearPolitics.com too recently, as they have an extensive range of opinions. But I must say I usually get bored reading anything partisan from the right as it is almost always boring in the predictable inaccuracies and uncourageous lack of social responsibility.
Another thing, do the GOP know what "socialism" is, let alone voter fraud, voter registration fraud and election fraud? I just want to let you all into a small secret, there is absolutely no chance of the USA ever becoming a socialist country, even if everyone wanted it!
Posted by marilynm at 10/21/2008 @ 6:31pm
I just want to let you all into a small secret, there is absolutely no chance of the USA ever becoming a socialist country, even if everyone wanted it!
Posted by marilynm at 10/21/2008 @ 6:31pm
Interesting comment-why do you say that?
Posted by meathelmet at 10/21/2008 @ 6:39pm
Implementing a socialist welfare state in the USA right now would be too expensive for the US govt. even if they taxed the hell out of absolutely everyone;
secondly the kind of infrastructure changes and bureaucratic overhaul is mind boggling to think about;
...plus the demographics and the enormous antipathy to any such idea would be a tremendous impediment, as well as the shear size of the country and its population.
The socialism that exists in European countries like Denmark, Sweden and Holland, amongst others, is a thing grown over decades, with much consensus building within compact populations, a (till now) general level of education unimaginable in the USA, and a Calvinistic attitude to materialism and consumerism which drives its markets in a completely different way.
Posted by marilynm at 10/21/2008 @ 7:23pm
So sad it's come to this... to having to combat real fears about the election being stolen. Aren't these the campaign tactics of anti-democratic dictators like Mugabe and various other banana state ego-maniacs? Who is setting the example here?
Posted by ValereP at 10/21/2008 @ 7:48pm
hi ibble, i'm doing well. and you?
hi chaoszen. i've been reading your stuff for quite awhile now. great posts. i believe wolfgang and i'mnobody spent some time living in montana as well. i'm in beautiful butte. lolo/msla is nice too. eastern montana can get pretty strange though, with all of the militia types.
Posted by loveloki at 10/21/2008 @ 8:00pm
There is a huge difference between the kind of problems that are going on with voter registration and these caging techniques. Flawed voter registration is easily caught--and in the case of Acorn, the names listed on some of those forms were not people, and no people would have shown up to vote. McCain's claim that Acorn workers' actions in turning in phony registration forms threatens to erode the very fabric of our democracy is wildly hystrionic, and not even vaguely the case. Challenging voters on election day and purging the rolls in the weeks before the election leave duly registered voters with little recourse. Such actions HAVE threatened, and stained, our democracy.
Posted by gypsyesquire at 10/21/2008 @ 8:21pm
damn,
you know i voted very recently.
the federal government sent me a voter card because i checked the "please send me a voter card" box on my tax form.
i took the card, showed no i.d., they checked off my name from the list,
they gave me a piece of paper,
i went behind a cardboard screen,
i put an "X" with a pencil and
put it in the box.
it's not rocket science.....
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/21/2008 @ 9:46pm
loveloki-I spent some time in the Bozeman area and lived for quite awhile in Kalispell and had a small farm in Eureka(while working in Kalispell) and spent some time in the mountains around Trego.My favorite state.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/21/2008 @ 10:09pm
I have to ask jimmylove to support his contention with facts. If it is true that the Democrats are perpetuating voter fraud then it is important to confront this as well. The ACORN situation hardly qualifies as fraud.
The ACORN "scandal" is an overblown attempt by the Republicans to discredit the very successful effort to get out the vote by this admittedly liberal organization. They are understandably unnerved by the success this organization has had. Nevertheless, it hardly constitutes fraud to sign up a fictitious person, as they are wont to imply. After all, there is only one "Mickey Mouse" and he'll probably vote for McCain anyway. The worst that could happen is that the fictitious voters simply won't show up on polling day. Big deal! This is hardly a justification for purging rolls by itself - something Republicans seem willing to do at the drop of a hat provided they stand to benefit.
Posted by samonet_az at 10/21/2008 @ 10:23pm
I believe there should be mandatory voter registration for eligible citizens to put a stop to this insanity. But, conservatives may not like that because it would include all people.
Posted by Mrstreet_23 at 10/21/2008 @ 11:49pm
Voter registration needs to remain voluntary. The right to vote - or the right to register to vote, for that matter - comes with the implied right NOT to vote (or register to vote). It's a short step from requiring citizens to register to vote to requiring them to vote. Requiring citizens to vote effectively removes from them the right to vote.
The free will of man, I believe, is God-given. It is self-evident that we all continually exercise choice on a moment-by-moment basis between two or more alternative courses. The inherent rights implied by free will ALSO must extend to the choice to take or NOT take actions in the exercise of these rights.
Posted by samonet_az at 10/22/2008 @ 12:38am
KVH, Bobby Kennedy was on Rachel Maddow tonight also covering this issue. I also saw an HBO documentary, "Uncounted," which goes over what happened in 2000 and 2004, what's improved and the changes that still need to be made. Personally, I think the biggest issues are that the counties are not prepared for either close elections or heavy turnout. Early voting and mail in ballots help. I am voting by mail-in this year, but I really miss going to the voter booth with everyone. We can still get better. Everyone deserves to have a voice by voting. Decisions should not disenfranchise any demographic or party.
Posted by QuakerBeach at 10/22/2008 @ 01:34am
Move the US to the left while all other leftist nations are moving to the right Does any of this matter? Or is it completely trumped by the fact that he's a great speaker, elegant, smart, looks presidential?
Posted by FairShare at 10/21/2008 @ 4:57pm
You sound like a friend of mine with the wealthy paying 97.1% of the wealthiest paying for the bottom 50% of the population. Have you ever considered that if you are in that top 2.9% you are enjoying the lion's share of the benefits of what our government provides?
Point one. A lot of the wealthy folks including some of the small business people make money based on international businesses such as having things made in China and shipped back to the U.S. The U.S. Navy protects shipping lanes for U.S. businesses at tax payer expense ie, protecting the top 2.9% business ventures. Don't believe me, see what's happening off Somalia. Ever heard of pirates?
If our system crashes, the wealthies have the most to lose, not the poorest. If you don't have anything, you don't have anything to lose now do you.
We've seen where the neoconservative agenda has gotten us....on the brink of complete financial collapse. We could stand to move a little to the left and have a president who doesn't just spew forth Milton Friedman horseshit on a daily basis....the free market system will solve all B.S. Greedy businessmen look out for number one. They could give a shit less about the U.S. economy or even the U.S. standing in the world. They only care about making as much money for themselves as possible.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/22/2008 @ 03:57am
I used to live in Lolo near Missoula. Great State.
Posted by chaoszen at 10/21/2008 @ 11:13am
Is the paper mill still in operation there? I remember driving from Great Falls to Missoula and getting to inhale that lovely smell on the trip in. Missoula is a pretty cool town I have to admit.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/22/2008 @ 04:00am
Katrina- Just today it was reported here in Hamilton County Ohio (Cincinnati) that our lovely prosecutor subpoenaed voter records looking for foul play. Joe Deters is the CHAIR of Southwest Ohio McCain campaign. Sound familiar? Because it is: the re-incarnation of Ken Blackwell. I called the prosecutor's office wondering why any issues, if any at all, cannot be decided by the Board of Elections.
As for ACORN, people need to get the facts. Paid canvassers were submitting false registrations in an attempt to make more money. ACORN has to turn in the forms to the county boards of elections BY LAW. They took the step to flag the suspicious ones. No fraud on ACORN's part.
Katrina- Saw you on Hardball in response to Bachmann. GO GIRL!
Posted by furtail at 10/22/2008 @ 06:19am
I really shouldn't spend so much time reading this blog, but it sort of gives me an anthropological thrill and there are some funny people writing stuff here.
Implementing a socialist welfare state in the USA right now would be too expensive for the US govt. even if they taxed the hell out of absolutely everyone; ...................... Posted by marilynm at 10/21/2008 @ 7:23pm
marilynm ,
I loved reading your posts, especially the one about ''anthropological thrill''.
I too get a tickle at the enormity of American's lack of education. Considering they obviously have the tools in their hands.
Posted by timenotonmyside at 10/22/2008 @ 08:12am
"The free will of man, I believe, is God-given. It is self-evident that we all continually exercise choice on a moment-by-moment basis between two or more alternative courses. The inherent rights implied by free will ALSO must extend to the choice to take or NOT take actions in the exercise of these rights."
Well, shit, I believe in unicorns, thereby it is self-evident that the flowers disappearing from the meadows this time of year is due to unicorn grazing and thereby the inherent right for the birds to mow down the lilies must also extend to the right for them to mow down the unicorns.
Oh, wait, we live in a society where you also have responsibilities, and many similar societies understand one of those responsibilities is to at least cast a ballot, even if you write in "God, the unicorn, last seen bloodied under the blade of the bird in the field."
The idea that we must protect the right not to vote is absurd, but does have a long history. See Jim Crow.
Posted by onthehelm at 10/22/2008 @ 08:58am
Posted by timenotonmyside at 10/22/2008 @ 08:12am
Yes, but obviously too many of them have their hands on their tools instead!
Posted by leftofcenter at 10/22/2008 @ 09:16am
LOL ... check out the GOP's voting shenanigans
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#27313459
Posted by leftofcenter at 10/22/2008 @ 09:20am
LOL ... check out the GOP's voting shenanigans
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#27313459
Posted by leftofcenter at 10/22/2008 @ 09:27am
ooops .. sorry about the double - still say this new blog engine blows Nation
Posted by leftofcenter at 10/22/2008 @ 09:31am
AMY GOODMAN: Just days after reports that six early voters in at least two West Virginia counties claimed their votes were switched from Democrat to Republican, a couple in Nashville, Tennessee reported similar problems with paperless voting machines. In West Virginia, one voter said, "I hit Obama, and it switched to McCain. I am really concerned about that. If McCain wins, there was something wrong with the machines."
Remember that old windows "joke" app that put a tile up with the question: "Are you satisfied with your salary?" There were a no and a yes button to click on. Clicking no forced the tile to move to a new location on the desktop and repeat the question and options. Clicking yes would cause the app to display the message: "We thought so," and exit.
It's no joke when it comes to an election.
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 10/22/2008 @ 5:00pm
KATRINA I LIKE YOU. you have plenty of guts and style keep up the good work. sometime next year come over to europe and have a nice cup of coffee with my friends and i. we would love to chat with you. J A democatsabroad munich germany
Posted by reality check at 10/22/2008 @ 7:45pm
Where did conservatives come by this habit of making outrageous statements and calling them facts, while providing no objective evidence to back up their rants?
I'm talking about statements like this one, above:
"Widespread fraud in ACORN registrations is an established fact, with tens if not hundreds of thousands of phony registration forms having been submitted in various battleground states."
Holy Hannah! We liberals have been very busy stuffing ballot boxes, haven't we? But where are these hundreds of thousands of phony registration forms? Are they being hidden by the Vast Left Wing Conspiracy? If so, then how to the conservatives know they exist?
Well, actually they don't know that they exist. They enjoy spreading lies like this. And so I'm about to answer my own question that began this response. To wit:
For years the Limbaughs and their radio ilk have been lying with impugnity. Now their acolytes are using the same approach, one that had been made infamous by the Nazi mouthpiece, Dr. Goebbels. He said that if you tell a big lie long enough, the less skeptical among us will take it as fact.
So, that leads us to conclude that conservative responses to blogs like this are coming either from people who are knowingly using The Big Lie or those who have been duped to believe it.
Posted by elcomputo at 10/23/2008 @ 01:30am
"Isn't it funny how Vanden Heuvel doesn't say a word in this longwinded whine session about voter fraud that exists on the left side of the spectrum? As if it's ONLY Republicans that monkey with voter registrations. Suuuuure."
Posted by jimmylove
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well *Jimmylove*, why don't YOU point us to any and or all Democratic-Party chicanery with the vote! I'd like to know about that as well...!
Posted by Weatherguesser at 10/23/2008 @ 07:00am
One of my students (I live in rural Indiana) told me yesterday his brother went to the courthouse now twice to register to vote - the 2nd time with his brother as witness .... and he is STILL not registered to vote per the county clerk.
Funny how that only seems to happen to Democrats in "swing" states....?
Posted by leftofcenter at 10/23/2008 @ 07:25am
Jimmy Love, do you really believe that wealthy white voters will be systematically purged from the voters rolls in this country? Do you really believe that voter supression will ever happen against wealthy whites? Come on. I am not going to get outraged over an event that is a fantasy possibility just like Joe the Plumber's fantasy future income that he is trying to protect.
Let's just talk history. Allegations against ACORN aren't new. It has happened in past elections. They are just allegations. There is no proof that ACORN is promoting the registration of fraudulent voters. We know this is a red herring. However, voter supression is alive and well in this country and disportionally affects African Americans. According to RFK, JR, the spoilage rate of black votes is NINE times that of white voters. Their precincts get the fewer and older machines that are more inclined to have problems.
As far as your experience versus that of birdyspice. I am sure a lot depends on where you live and what the state laws are. They differ by state and by who is the Secretary of State. If it is a Dem they will try to do all they can to be sure that voter suppression doesn't happen. There are only 4 or 5 cases of actual voter fraud versus thousands of voters purged. That is the issue that should sicken anyone who believes in a Democracy. It's too bad those from the right don't get upset about the thousands of disinfranchised voters as they do about the possibility that 5 people might actually commit voter fraud.
BTW, it is on CNN right now that Ohio's Sec of State is getting death threats simply because the US Supreme Ct rules in her favor.
When you go to vote carry this # 1-866-OURVOTE. You will be connected with an atty to help with issues.
Posted by loria at 10/23/2008 @ 08:46am
The truly real danger is that Republicans will work to get Judge Molloy and others like him removed from the bench, calling them "activist" and replaced with right wing ideologues...
Posted by adp3d at 10/23/2008 @ 5:28pm
The difference between voter registration fraud and voter suppression is gigantic. If Mickey Mouse tries to vote, he will have to prove who he is and where he lives. If he lies about it, he would be easy to prosecute.When you take someones legal vote away through caging, misinformation and making it difficult to register and vote, that's vote fraud. You can't go back and uncage or unsuppress a vote after an election. The Republican party has been caging for years. The crooks behind voter suppression should go to jail, starting with Karl 'Cagecrook' Rove.
Long live Katrina Vanden Heuvel
Those of you afraid of Acorn need to get a life and learn the truth for once. I'm not a Democrat, but todays Republican party is the biggest group of dishonest, filibustering whiners I have ever seen.
Posted by Douglos at 10/24/2008 @ 05:42am
Voter suppression of lower income Americans is not just a myth. It's a fact. Republicans know, and have stated so openly, (check out Paul Wyrick of the Heritage Foundation) is that their chances for winning increase when fewer people vote. That is to say that if they can keep minorities, the young, and low-income Americans from having access to the polls, they have a better chance of putting candidates in office who will continue to stack the decks for the rich. Conservatives, who clearly yearn for the days of dominance of 'wealthy land owners', are pulling out to stops to ensure that newly registered voters, largely Democrats, are left out of the process. Thomas Jefferson and our founding fathers are turning over in their graves right now.
Posted by KellyS at 10/24/2008 @ 10:13am
In > 2000, it was Katherine Harris - -
2004, it was Kenneth Blackwell - -
and in 2008, who is it going to be ?????????????
If this time it turns out to be another ''surprise'' victory for the GOP in the end, against all polls and predictions, this country is doomed to become a 'Banana Republic' for good !!
Posted by Mad As Hell at 10/24/2008 @ 4:19pm
Unless the corrupt Repugnant officials are removed from state offices in FL & OH, nothing will improve; it is a shame after eight years, they are in the same hole - -
It took less time to get a man on the moon, back in '69 !!!!!!!!!
Acorn Attacks are Cover for Republican Voter Suppression (200,000 voters removed in Ohio), and Vote Fraud Operations!
In 2004 Ohio exit polls all day had Kerry ahead by 6-7%, then late afternoon and evening after polls closed... totals REVERSED!
The GOP continues to resist attempts to subpoena Michael Connell, a shady Republican computer operative who programmed the 2000 Bush-Cheney web site.
Connell was also hired by former Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell in 2004 to tabulate the Ohio vote count. Under Connell, Ohio's vote totals were shunted to a computer bank in the same basement in Chattanooga, Tennessee, that housed the servers of the Republican National Committee.
In the early hours of the morning after election day, vote totals mysteriously began shifting from Kerry to Bush, swinging the 2004 election.
Connell's cyber-security industry colleague Stephen Spoonamore, a Republican and former McCain supporter, has said that Connell may be able to shed light on vote count rigging in the 2008 vote count as well. Attorneys in the King-Lincoln- Bronzeville civil rights lawsuit have thus far been unable to secure Connell's sworn testimony.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=10553
Posted by Mad As Hell at 10/24/2008 @ 4:22pm
"Oh boys, can you code it?" - Stan Rogers
A work song for programmers
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 10/25/2008 @ 10:29am