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Like all Americans, I was horrified watching pictures of the destruction wrought by the hurricane. And like others who share the name Katrina, I found it eerie hearing and reading my name all over the news. But when Fox started calling the storm Killer Katrina, I prayed some right-wing idiot wouldn't stoop so low as to link me to this human suffering. But wouldn't you know, the biggest dittohead on the block, Rush Limbaugh, is calling the storm Hurricane Katrina vanden Heuvel. National Review's Jonah Goldberg, who has never seen a bad-joke bandwagon he could resist jumping on with both feet, blogged, "It would be pretty cool if Fox played to caricature and repeatedly referred to the hurricane as Katrina vanden Heuvel." He went on to imagine the lines, "The destruction from Katrina vanden Heuvel is expected to be massive. The poor and disabled are particularly likely to suffer from the effects of Katrina vanden Heuvel."
This is how they show respect for those who are suffering and dying--with lame quips? At least Limbaugh has the excuse that drug abuse tends to stunt emotional development. What Goldberg's problem is nobody has yet discovered. Natural disasters should be above infantile politics. (George W. Bush's decision to send his father and Bill Clinton to organize aid for the tsunami was one of his few international PR successes since 9/11.) It's so easy to take cheap shots. (Did you hear the one about OxyContin's new tag line? "What a Rush!")
We should be asking serious questions about why the Iraq War has led the White House to divert funds from an urgent project to upgrade levees and pumping stations in Louisiana, and why there aren't enough National Guard troops on hand in what is one of the worst natural disasters in US history. It is not a time for personal attacks. Let's empathize with those who are suffering and think about how we can help them.
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Katrina vanden Heuvel
Thoughts on politics, current affairs, riffs and reflections on what’s in the news and what’s not--but should be.
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Yes, but doesn't having your name used in such a ridiculous manner at least get the Nation more attention / circulation? Maybe you'll convert a right winger or two out of this. Don't take it too much to heart, and keep up the great work!
Posted by cammycam at 08/30/2005 @ 11:00am
KVH,
You should have refrained from returning the ignoble jab by Rush. He was (is) wrong by what he's doing but you should have remained above the fray.
Posted by USAPRIDE at 08/30/2005 @ 11:33am
Loudmouths like Rush Limbaugh need people to resond to whatever dumb things come out of their mouths. Their entire careers depend upon it. Of course people on the far left can be just as bad. Somehow it makes me feel like I'm in junior high-school all over again. You neomaxizoomdweebie!!!
Posted by Zeddmen at 08/30/2005 @ 11:52am
Jeez, and I was assuming the hurricanes of the past two years were God's wrath on the red states. I'm glad that Rush straightened me out on this. You, Katrina, are all powerful. Keep up the good work!
Posted by No Ditto Hd at 08/30/2005 @ 12:01pm
NO DITTO
What a wonderful sentiment you just expressed, tell me should we on the right judge all of you on the left from the comments of an imbecillic jerk like the one NO DITTO just made?
Then some of you should extend the same courtesy
Posted by CPT at 08/30/2005 @ 12:13pm
CPT, No doubt NO DITTO HD made insensitive remarks, but he does raise an interesting question - will any preachers or other religious leaders claim that the many hurricanes of the past few years are indeed God's judgement, and call the people of these states to repent?
If it happened to San Francisco, you know that some would describe it as God's wrath on homosexuals. It demonstrates one of the problems of fundamentalism - bad things that happen to "bad" people is just the manifestation of judgement, whereas if it happens to "good" people, then "God will help us get through this, because we are on the side of righteousness."
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/30/2005 @ 12:38pm
ILP: It's about faith. Has nothing to do with a persons lifestyle.
Posted by USAPRIDE at 08/30/2005 @ 12:46pm
Let's leave God's wrath out of the situation. Pat Robertson said there would be all manner of natural disasters when Disney World hosted Gay Days and recognized same-sex couples among Disney employees. Most of us on the left ridiculed him for it. We shouldn't apply Robertsonism to the Red States. The weather affects everyone, right and left. If we're looking for political angles on catastrophic weather, this would be a good time to emphasize global warming's link to hurricanes. It only takes a degree or two of ocean warming to greatly increase the strength of tropical storms, turning more of them into hurricanes.
Posted by proudlib at 08/30/2005 @ 12:57pm
PROUDLIB & USAPRIDE, You've missed my point. USAPRIDE, I understand religion very well - no need to state the obvious to me, thanks. My post is not about the essence of faith, it is about the double standard applied by fundamentalist.
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/30/2005 @ 1:09pm
Wear the name with Pride. It's an admission of his fear. Now if only Rush would evacuate when he heard you were coming.
Posted by llewelly at 08/30/2005 @ 1:24pm
Katrina, I feel for you. Just imagine what I go through on a daily basis having the last name that I have!
mikeditto.com [mikeditto.com]
Posted by Michael Ditto at 08/30/2005 @ 1:28pm
I think the hurricane shows that the although folks in the Bible Belt may think they're God's own messengers they find out that it doesn't matter - they get hit with bad weather anyway. I don't attribute meteorology to divine intervention anyway. If it makes them feel good to pray, fine, but those prayers won't change anything any more that a pre-game prayer ensures victory.
Posted by proudlib at 08/30/2005 @ 1:55pm
ILP- I'm not sure what point of yours I missed. We probably agree on all of this. I'm only saying we shouldn't be hypocrites either. I don't think God plays favorites.
Posted by proudlib at 08/30/2005 @ 1:58pm
ILP: I also don't get your point. The word "if" gives too much latitude for some when trying to make a point.
Posted by USAPRIDE at 08/30/2005 @ 2:07pm
ILP--I think you're right that if this had happened in San Fran, Falwell and Robertson would claim it was God's wrath. Didn't Falwell say (many years ago) that AIDS is God's judgement on homosexuals?
Posted by rain man at 08/30/2005 @ 2:08pm
I regret the lack of clarity in my post.
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/30/2005 @ 2:12pm
I think I read somewhere that if the ocean temperature was raised by only 2 degrees it would cause severe weather conditions such as deadly hurricanes, tornados etc, perhaps George W. should have signed on to the Kyoto treaty, but then he does not want to cut into the profits of his corporate supporters and big business. His plans are working very well, with over 1 million more living in poverty this past year (the 4th year in a row) George W. is really on course!!!
Posted by Donny Sykes at 08/30/2005 @ 2:24pm
Katrina:
Nothing that blowhard says surprises me (its his followers I fear) I'll relish when the 'End of Days' occurs and he's 'left behind,' for spreading such rampant treason. He truly fuels every gallon of my liberal pessimism! I can't wait until my patent comes through--I long for the day when I can fullfil the dream I've nurtured every since I illegally immigrated, here, of joining the legion of holy capitalists by selling my dittohead shaped dildos (which I think will prove a big seller amongst the gay christian American communist community.) Love it!!! Go Andrew Sullivan!!Go William F.Buckly Jr. Go go away!!
Posted by Shane at 08/30/2005 @ 2:44pm
I can't believe that Limbaugh and Goldberg have the gall to dub it "hurricane Katrina Vanden Heuvel".
Everyone knows that she only blows that hard when she's a guest on Hardball.
Posted by Log Cabin at 08/30/2005 @ 2:53pm
Believe it Log Cabin--Tis interestin' times we livin' in, indeed!
Posted by Shane at 08/30/2005 @ 3:02pm
help me, help me I'm a liberal who doesn't have a sense of humor!!!!! Geez Kat, don't take yourself so seriously.
P.S. I especially like the hypocritical shot at your 'opponents', nice touch!
Posted by BigDummy at 08/30/2005 @ 3:15pm
BIGDUMMY, Seems kind of callous to make jokes that relate a person to a storm that caused so much misery and death. You obviously don't live in New Orleans.
Maybe you can entertain us with some jokes about the Holocaust or Kurds dying from poison gas or something! You must be the life of the party
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/30/2005 @ 3:37pm
Katrina keep up the great work.
Lets make this a positive, Rush limpbrain and Co have now opened the door. May I suggest starting with
Limbaugh runs away from Limbaugh (Keith Olbermann) posted 8/22 on Keiths Bloggermen site http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/ Then you may want to ask for intel from those who have had a funny experience with Rush say at Pebble Beach during the Pro-Am understand he ran away and hid from a little old ladywith a bar of soap.
No its time to take the fool to task and he's opened the door lets keep it open and see what pops out.
Posted by dycel8r at 08/30/2005 @ 3:59pm
Bush Cuts Vacation to Return to D.C. [talkleft.com], finnally. about time. the worst natural disaster in 50 years and bush virtually ignores it.
Posted by da lurker at 08/30/2005 @ 4:10pm
The amazing thing is that Rush was not wrong when he said the left would find a way to blame this on Bush and the rest of the right. Seems that liberal blogs were abuzz with blame for the hurricane resting on the shoulders of Bush.
I would also like to know how lying about the LA national guard is political activism. When you say the LA NG watched the hurricane from Iraq you are misleading. LA has approximately 11,500 guardsmen. 3000 are deployed. 3500 have been activated for the storm and the balance are available if needed. So how does misleading people about the guard pass as the right thing to do. Seems strange for a person passing herself off as holier than thou.
Posted by Big Dog at 08/30/2005 @ 4:27pm
KVH Rocks! And if P.T. Barnum's assertion there's no such thing as bad publicity is correct, then, as several contributors have stated, the positive blowback from the Neanderthals' viscious comments, for The Nation, Katrina, herself, and for all we conscientiously concerned is, as they say, "all good".
Remember John Redfield's "New Age" mystery thriller, Celestine Prophecy (forerunner to Dan Brown's The DeVinci Code)? The first precept, I recall, is there are no coincidences. Hurricane Andrew devastated south Florida, and with Andrew a family middle name now extending from generations ago, in retrospect, I view it as something of a milestone or benchmark in space/weather/time associated with identity development, even "societal emotional process," from Dr. Michael E. Kerr and Murray Bowen's Family Evaluation.
Maybe Katrina, you're going to now be promoted as the beautiful "poster woman" of the left, hopefully figuratively burying the ditzy Anne Coulter.
Speedy recovery all. It's our choice: bitter or better. Better to rebuild here than "over there."
Lawman
Posted by lewwelge at 08/30/2005 @ 4:32pm
Maybe the first hurricane of next season will be named Ann.
Posted by ash at 08/30/2005 @ 4:33pm
James Kroeger's
The Republican Nemesis [taxwisdom.org]
Explains it all so well...
Posted by Linette at 08/30/2005 @ 4:45pm
Only those with absolutely no education!Wouldn't you agree MaryBadhead? (U.S. liberal elites must stick together.)
Posted by Shane at 08/30/2005 @ 5:05pm
Good one, Grits.
Posted by Shane at 08/30/2005 @ 6:02pm
We have noticed a large number of gas stations in this area of the southeast (not hit by Katrina) running out of gas. I've really been out of it news-wise: is anyone else experiencing this and is this related to the storm?
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 08/30/2005 @ 6:21pm
Related directly to the storm
I've become so tired of the anecdotal human-interest stories that the networks and NPR seem hell-bent on feeding us. I was traveling all day yesterday craving real news reports and all I got were little ditties about Mrs. X and her family having a scary night and Mr. Y having to wait over 2 hours for gasoline in Mississippi. Meanwhile, the initial reports I heard were centered on New Orleans and seemed stupefyingly sunny ("we're lucky, coulda been much worse"). It's nice to look on the bright side, but in the midst of a city that has been turned into a disaster area, such "analysis" seems deliberately callous to those who are suffering.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 08/30/2005 @ 6:27pm
I think the real story is this :
The US suffered a natural disaster. Yet, very few countries are bothering to offer us any aid. Sure, we have deep pockets of our own, and our infrastructure is good enough that in the US, only dozens die while in Indonesia, Sri Landa, etc. 220,000 die from a Tsunami.
But that does not mean that we could not benefit from help from other countries.
When there is a disaster anywhere else in the world, not only do we provide money, but also supplies, military relief assistance, use of our ships and planes, etc. We are criticized for not being fast enough or generous enough.
China wants to be a superpower. But where was their aid, to either the Tsunami or to the US after Hurricane Katrina? Where is the EU aid to the US after Hurricane Katrina?
People are so used to this double standard, that they don't even notice it. But it is a gross double standard...
Posted by kmg4 at 08/30/2005 @ 6:44pm
Dear everybody: Just a brief thought directed at No Ditto Hd, et al. Maybe there should be a little irony symbol for internet convresations, as sometimes gauging tone in the written word is tough and Americans typically have little experience with this subtle form of humor. Irony is when you say something that is the opposite of what you really mean in order to make a point (e.g. "Let's just eat Irish babies!"). This would save a lot of tangential debates and grumpiness. Katrina: There's no such thing as bad publicity. Anyone who doesn't chuckle wryly and groan over this has no sense of humor, and I venture to say I can guess who they voted for.
Posted by Joolya at 08/30/2005 @ 6:52pm
JOOLYA--Here Here!
Posted by Shane at 08/30/2005 @ 6:55pm
Or dare I say? (Ditto.)
Posted by Shane at 08/30/2005 @ 6:56pm
We are in desperate need of a colored alert system for hurricanes.
Posted by JOHN P BOYCE at 08/30/2005 @ 7:03pm
KMG4,
Oh yes, boo-hoo for us. Nobody cares about us. The storm has barely cleared, we have no clear idea about how bad things are and what is needed, yet you expect others to make an instant gesture?
Awfully hard for Americans to play the martyr, doncha think?
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 08/30/2005 @ 7:20pm
TJBEHRENS1,
Hey, we were criticized for 'not responding fast enough' to the Tsunami, 10,000 miles away.
Why so much anti-Americanism?
Posted by kmg4 at 08/30/2005 @ 8:01pm
JPB, I am LOL at your post. I hope it was meant as a joke!
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/30/2005 @ 8:04pm
Right.
But we were not criticized the day after the wave hit. What "anti-Americanism"? Silly. The fact that I don't think the sun revolves around the earth doesn't make me anti-Earth.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 08/30/2005 @ 8:05pm
TJBEHRENS1,
OK, we give it 3-4 days. In that time, if there is little or no help volunteered to us from France, Germany, and China, will you admit that what I said is true (given that you are not anti-American and all)?
Posted by kmg4 at 08/30/2005 @ 8:10pm
Hmmm
As far as God's wrath goes, this storm seems a bit tame.
Additionally, while there are those who would like to see judgement on the wicked, it is clear that Judgement must begin at the house of the God, (1Peter 4:17) which is to say on the church.
It is also clear that when judgment comes, no one is exempt.
Though for wickedness, there are few places I have been which are more so that the corner of Bourbon and St. Anne during Mardi Gras.
Posted by jonb at 08/30/2005 @ 8:19pm
By the Way, this "Mother Nature" stuff is kinda creepy.
Very pagan.
Personification like that is not what I would expect from materialist intellectuals.
Just to clarify the matter, the earth is not my mother. It is just a thing God made. A good thing, and quite impressive. But no mother to me.
Posted by jonb at 08/30/2005 @ 8:23pm
My sister lives in Harvey, across the river from N.O.
I haven't heard any details, but from what I have heard, I think that area is OK.
Posted by jonb at 08/30/2005 @ 8:24pm
BTW, if you donate through MCC, approximately 95% of your money goes to actual relief efforts. (Not sure of exact percentage at this time)
Posted by jonb at 08/30/2005 @ 8:58pm
JONB, if you've been to few places as "wicked" as Bourbon and St. Anne, I don't want to party with you. No offense... :-)
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/30/2005 @ 9:13pm
You been there?
Posted by jonb at 08/30/2005 @ 9:28pm
Maybe your "Wicked-O-Meter" needs calibrating...
Posted by jonb at 08/30/2005 @ 9:29pm
KMG:
The question is: would we accept money from other countries? Or are we too proud?
If we would accept anything, it would certainly only be money. We would not accept other countries coming in with supplies and/or military.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/30/2005 @ 9:37pm
Hey KMG4, You reap what you sow. If you seriously expect anyone to "come running" to assist us: it just shows what a truly delusional asshole you are. What do they all really owe us? Not a whole hell of a lot.
Your great friend,
Bloppy
Posted by bloppy at 08/30/2005 @ 10:32pm
I'm wondering what a government drowned in the bathtub by Grover Norquist would do about Katrina.
Posted by proudlib at 08/30/2005 @ 11:10pm
Ik vermoed dat jij niet zo belangrijk bent. Ik heb zelfs nooit van jouw gehoord voor vandaag.
Posted by elandadem at 08/31/2005 @ 12:05am
This morning (30th) gas went up 14 cents. It's slated to go up 30 cents more sometime tonight, and rumor has it another 30 cents by the end of the week. This in the Omaha area and will push the price of the cheap stuff (gasohol, it's subsidized by a tax break) over $3/gal (anybody besides me remember when gas was 32 cents/gal and diesel was under a dime?). In one nearby town, Treynor, Iowa, the gas stations have run out of fuel. All this because of the predicted - not actual, yet - shortage caused by storm-related refinery shutdown/damage. Fortunately my car (1987 LeBaron) gets 30+ mpg and I stop commuting (550 miles/week)on the 9th when I join the unemployment line.
Posted by Bob A at 08/31/2005 @ 12:32am
Bob A:
here's a solution: move to where you work. Or work near where you live.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 12:49am
Remind me never to get my hard news from those soft-headed loonies at FOX or Limbaugh. Actually, what would happen if next year they had a hurricane named Greta Van Susteren? You would be thought of as a trailblazer.
Posted by wgmadden at 08/31/2005 @ 01:02am
Another idea-- naming rights to these storms could be sold to help defray the cost of cleaning up the aftermath.
Posted by wgmadden at 08/31/2005 @ 01:04am
By the way, segragating whites from non-whites, or to use it's shorthand: "suburban sprawl", is the cause of high gas prices. If white people didn't have to drive so far from their suburbs to the city for work, or from their suburbs to other far away suburbs for work, this country wouldn't use so much gasoline. There would be a greater supply of oil and less demand for gasoline: lower prices. But there's less of a supply of oil and an ever-rising need for gasoline: high prices.
Keep building bedroom communities that provide no business opportunities if you want, but don't cry about high gas prices.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 01:06am
Katrina Darlin:
I am very, very sorry to hear that this pugnacious, addict who calls himself a radio talk show host, Limbaugh has stooped so low and would associate your full name with this terrible, terrible hurricane, Katrina. Then again as you've stated: He has the excuse that drug abuse tends to stunt emotional development. Some things will never ever change.
Limbaugh! He is "POND SCUM"
Posted by Munich at 08/31/2005 @ 01:08am
Borboun and St Anne wicked? You need to get out more. It's more like our President in his youth. Drunk and loud,but not very dangerous. If you want wicked, check out Chicago politics or Rush"It's for my back"Limbaugh. Both will turn your stomach if you take it too seriously, or make you laugh if you take it in stride. I hope Katrina take these attacks as compliments.Guys like Rush used to hit girls they liked on the playground at school. Not athletic, weird name, I've been there. I've grown up though.
Posted by Bulbtop at 08/31/2005 @ 01:29am
I wonder why Shrub decided to go back east 2 days early? He can't do anything more about the hurricane there than he could in Crawford, or wherever he decides to flit to for a money laundering, oops, I mean raising -- soiree. Maybe Camp Casey is just getting too hot? Or maybe his own personal "GOD" provided a timely evasion from the scrutiny of all the sordid activities of his administration.
Posted by Chuck at 08/31/2005 @ 01:31am
Utter disconnect: This photo of Bush today (Tuesday, the 30th) playing guitar while so many, many people are trying to survive and cope with a phenomenal disaster. I am stunned, absolutely stunned.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/capm10208301856
Tue Aug 30, 2:56 PM ET President Bush plays a guitar presented to him by Country Singer Mark Wills, right, backstage following his visit to Naval Base Coronado, Tuesday, Aug. 30, 2005. Bush visited the base to deliver remarks on V-J Commemoration Day. (AP Photo/ABC News, Martha Raddatz)
Copyright © 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
Posted by ellaV007 at 08/31/2005 @ 01:31am
Do you people expect the President to wear a permanent frown on his face? Do you expect him to act like he's mourning his best friend 24/7?
I'm no Bush fan, mind you, but I couldn't give a shit less about every little goddamn thing he does.
You people criticizing Bush for these absolutely inane, personal things, are the same who defended Clinton against the media storm about his sexual life.
Concern yourself with the policies of the office, not the man.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 01:59am
Somehow this doesn't surprise me that Limbaugh would trash Ms. Katrina from The Nation. He's just the kind of a-hole to do it. We should not say "we're shocked" by this. Nothing these bastards do shocks me anymore....
Posted by assbaby at 08/31/2005 @ 04:45am
Dear Katrina, don't you think you better start writing than worrying about "what they say". It's a shame that people living in the US, the richest country in the world, are so vunerable to "natural" disasters as floods and fires,because the infrastucture is old and badly maintained. Every year more people die in the US due to these bad politics, than by terrorist attacks. It's time to wake up !
Posted by fenauxo at 08/31/2005 @ 05:36am
For those who would say that Bush is above criticism with regard to this natural disaster, take a look at this: Did New Orleans Catastrophe Have to Happen? [editorandpublisher.com] Bush's filthy, unnecessary war diverted money away from infrastructure improvements that would have prevented the wholesale destruction of New Orleans (and make no mistake about it, New Orleans is no more). So, yes, I think Bush ought to walk around "with a permanent frown on his face," and with handcuffs on his wrists and shackles on his ankles.
Posted by PMontain at 08/31/2005 @ 05:53am
Wait a minute....
"and warning that the left is going to use this tragedy against the right."
and then Robert Kennedy Jr comes out on Arianna Huffington's blog and says that "Haley Barbour is responsible for what happened to his state" because he opposed Kyoto.
So....uh....doesn't that mean ...(gasp!)...Rush was right???
Posted by Mask at 08/31/2005 @ 06:44am
Mask, If your neighbours tell you to put a fence arround your pool, to avoid your little kids from drowning. An accident happens because you ignored what they said, and you also will be the first to say : "they will use this argument against me". And right they are to do so!
Posted by fenauxo at 08/31/2005 @ 07:27am
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Posted by RogerARTcom at 08/31/2005 @ 07:48am
FENAUXO.....
My point remains....Katrina was upset that Limbaugh said the "left would use the tragedy to attack the right" and Bobby Jr used the tragedy to attack the right.
Kennedy didn't say "This is an example of what global warming can do" or "we could prevent things like this by addressing greenhouse gases"...he said Barbour is "to blame" for what happened to his state, for failing to support a treaty!
It is NO different from some nut like Pat Robertson saying Californians are "to blame" for a serial killer, because they passed an anti-death penalty law. It's using an VAGUELY-related event to attack political opponents on a policy matter.
Posted by Mask at 08/31/2005 @ 09:03am
Katrina,
WhataRush and JonahTheWhale are only displaying the limits of their wit, ignore them for they are fools.
For the others on this blog comentary, consider this:
A 200 truck convoy filled with food, fuel, water, and medical supplies speeding toward the site of the disaster. Numerious amtracks (amphibious vehicles), filled with US troops, fanning out across the landscape to bring hope and safety to the population. Massive amounts (Billions) of US taxpayers dollars being spent to repair a destroyed city's infrastructure.
Too bad that is all happening in Iraq.
Strange, Rush, Jonah, Sean, and the rest of those idiots can't see the plain and simple fact that we, the citizens of the USA, should spend our resources on OUR COUNTRY FIRST.
To me that is PATRIOTISM!
Posted by Maine_Raptor at 08/31/2005 @ 09:43am
Oh yea, I almost forgot,
Someone should give GWB a clue. While he spent yesterday (Aug. 30) giving a speach celebrating the 60th Anniversary of the signing of the unconditional surrender of Japan, closing out WWII, the ACTUAL date of that event was Sept 2nd.
Perhaps he would be better of reading a modern history book, he might just learn something.
Posted by Maine_Raptor at 08/31/2005 @ 10:06am
.
Right! To the rich rightists Katrina is only an occasion for crude and callous laughter. But the warm hearted van den Heuvel, so full of compassion and kindness, recoils at the brutal and crude Amerikanskies. Oh, the Left is so good and the Right so wicked!
The left writhes in solidarity with the unfortunate masses as they shiver, hungry and afraid on rooftops under the raging hurricane.
Mothers keen outside Crawford Texas. The men of Louisiana kill and are killed in Iraq even as their loved ones are drowned and starved in the homeland. Generous KvH suffers it all, tears role down the soft cheeks. This wise and noble Katrina trembles with tender compassion, she stifles her anger, unbowed even though personally abused and savaged. Oh, where is the justice? Oh, where is the sorrow and the pity?
There certainly is no shame.
This humanitarian supported and agitated for a mass murdering police state. She yet hopes and crusades for the triumph of ferocious fanatics.
Hand-wringing for New Orleans by Islamofascist collaborators is the cruelest joke of all.
.
Posted by nacl at 08/31/2005 @ 10:21am
The Quality of Mercy Far from being stingy, the scale of tsunami-related humanitarian aid efforts is unprecedented. But will the generosity last?
Christian Science MonitorJanuary 3, 2005
(CSM) - The top U.N. official for humanitarian aid, Jan Egeland, has offered an apology for implying in the early days of the tsunami disaster that rich countries, especially the United States, were being "stingy" in their relief donations. Now, with over $2 billion in official aid and millions more in private giving going to Asia's victims, Egeland says, "International compassion has never been like this."
…The United States remains the world's largest government aid donor, but it ranks near last among rich nations in aid as a percent of its total wealth. Still, the bulk of all U.S. international assistance comes from individuals, corporations and private groups such as churches - far surpassing private giving per capita in Europe."
The above from: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/62/story_6248_1.html [beliefnet.com]
So although last among rich nations in aid as a percent of total wealth, the U.S. remains the worlds largest government aid donor!
And furthermore the bulk of it comes from corporations, private groups and churches!
I'm just wondering where the outpouring from the International community is for the Katrina victims in the United States?
Oh..
That's right...
The world expects and loves for the U.S. to socially redistribute our wealth to all the needy individuals of the world when it helps them, but they really don't like to have to return the favor when the U.S. needs help.
The word hypocritical comes to mind...
And the left wonders why so many Americans couldn't give a rats behind about International law, France, Germany or the U.N.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 10:41am
Mask I read not so long ago, that 50% of kids, leaving higschool in the US have difficulties reading. This does not mean they can't read, it means they have difficulties getting the sense of what they read. I pointed out that repeating what people say, will not change a iota to the bad situation of America's infrastucture. Please read "Did New Orleans Catastrophe Have to Happen" in the above message of P.Montain, posted at 5.53h. That's the real problem, and not the childish "he said, she said" you all seem to favor! Yes, actual American politics make you all less safer! And Left AND right should react to that.
Posted by fenauxo at 08/31/2005 @ 10:45am
The rumor for years was that liberals were the supposed "intellectuals" and conservatives were lacking the mental facilities for putting together cogent thoughts.
Reading this thread of responses to Katrina's posting, I guess we can put that rumor to bed (with apologies to Zero and I Love Physics and in part to Urmygryo for some rational and reasoned thought).
Posted by love liberty at 08/31/2005 @ 10:51am
For those who would say that Bush is above criticism with regard to this natural disaster, take a look at this: Did New Orleans Catastrophe Have to Happen? [editorandpublisher.com] Bush's filthy, unnecessary war diverted money away from infrastructure improvements that would have prevented the wholesale destruction of New Orleans (and make no mistake about it, New Orleans is no more). So, yes, I think Bush ought to walk around "with a permanent frown on his face," and with handcuffs on his wrists and shackles on his ankles.
Perhaps instead, you ought to read the Constitution. Congress as it often does, was outside of it's Congressional limits when it created that spending in the first place. This was an issue for the State of Louisiana, not the Fed Gov't.
To help direct your understanding, read Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution and the Tenth Amendment.
Do not mistake this post for a lack of caring or concern. I am specifically addressing the issue of responsibility for the levees.
Posted by love liberty at 08/31/2005 @ 11:01am
LOVE LIBERTY, so you honestly argue that expenses of the war in Iraq haven't diverted monies and valuable resources from the cities of America? I think the State of Louisiana might argue you on that premise.
Posted by Shane at 08/31/2005 @ 11:33am
Face it Bush is playing around with some gift guitar yesterday in Arizona. Meanwhile his citizens in New Orleans are watching the flood waters get higher and higher. He cut funding to the Army Corp of Engineers to pay for his tax cuts and his war. He has not even taken the time to address the nation. Is he even back in DC yet. Hello, this is the worst national disaster in our nations history. Maybe he should go hide in Air Force One like he did after 9/11. 200 national guard to watch over and help 12,000 people in the superdome. Damn right were going to politicize it! Yep you bet! Did you catch that YES we are going to shove it down his uncaring throat!
Posted by Salunga at 08/31/2005 @ 11:38am
Hail Salunga! God Bless you!
Posted by Shane at 08/31/2005 @ 11:40am
Thanks Shane you got me on a role then how about this. We are spending 100 billion a year on an immoral and illegal war in Iraq that is actually reducing our security. We refuse to pay our bills and insteads give ourselves tax cuts. So the crying dimwitted neocons wonder why the world will not offer us troops and money? The richest country in the world and you wonder why and are shocked by the fact the world may not want to give us money. My God get a freaking grip.
Posted by Salunga at 08/31/2005 @ 12:07pm
You should consider it a 'badge of honor' if you will to be a burr in the side of folks like RL.
Posted by cpricecpa at 08/31/2005 @ 12:19pm
OKsportsguy, The difference between a developped country and a underdevelopped country, is that in developped countries people are supposed to have not only private insurances, but also a state budget for catastrophes and disasters to help them out. As to your quote from "BELIEFNET", as the name says, you can belief it. You better try to find the facts on serious websites. As comparing the total of the US to single countries one by one is a bit easy! Try to compare it with the EU for exemple?
Posted by fenauxo at 08/31/2005 @ 12:20pm
Salunga,
"We are spending 100 billion a year on an immoral and illegal war in Iraq that is actually reducing our security."
Couple of things here…
"Morality" is relative, it is not a given, as there is not a concise and agreed upon definition of morality.
To you the war in Iraq may be "immoral" to me it's the only moral thing to do, for it would be immoral to continue to allow terrorists to blow themselves up killing innocent civilians in New York, London, Spain, or Israel. To me the only MORAL thing to do is kill all the terrorists in the world.
So don't expect everyone to agree with you on your view of morality in terms of the "immoral and illegal" war in Iraq. Not until morality can be defined with one definition.
"The richest country in the world and you wonder why and are shocked by the fact the world may not want to give us money."
More entitlement mentality. Are you suggesting that the rest of the world is somehow "entitled" to our wealth? Just because we are the wealthiest country in the world that we some how "owe" it to the rest of the world to socially redistribute our wealth, because it's the "right" thing to do? My God I hope my kids don't have someone like you for a professor when they go to college, no wonder all our kids become "progresivised" when they go through school.
People, and the world are NOT entitled to one red cent of the U.S.'s money. We graciously give it to them because we care, how dare them or you question how much we give compared with how much money we have!
If we gave one single dime to the Tsunami victims they had best still thank us for that dime, it was one more dime than they would have had had we NOT given it to them.
From reading the Nation I have become enlightened with the amount of people that seem to really prefer that the U.S. become more of a socialist nation, which is extremely disheartening.
Perhaps I will have to shift the old statement used to quell you guys when you were pushing for increased gun laws from "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers, to you can be "entitled" to my wealth when you pry it from my cold dead fingers".
I am not saying we should not give to those in need, on the contrary, we should! But no one that is on the receiving end of our goodness should ever think they are somehow entitled to our blessings just because we are financially blessed.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 12:22pm
SHANE, The war in Iraq hasn't diverted resources becaused it is financed through debt. Our government is not paying as we go, because federal revenue is approximately $400 billion a year less than federal expenditures. There were and are no "resources" being diverted, Uncle Sam is just charging it on his credit card. If we were not at war we would just be borrowing less.
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/31/2005 @ 12:24pm
"Try to compare it with the EU for exemple? "
No, I wouldn't do that, why should I?
The EU is a COLLECTION of Nations, why would it be fair to compare the U.S. to a collection of Nations?
The bottom line is we give a TON to others in need, and when it's the U.S.'s turn in need the rest of the world convientently turns a blind eye.
Don't make excuses and justify the lack of response, just answer the question, where is the help from the rest of the world for the victims of Katrina?
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 12:26pm
Well, Limbaugh equating your name with this horrible disaster is probably pretty accurate. I deem the destruction of this storm with the destruction caused by liberalism and the people behind the movement. Your beliefs and actions are eroding this country like a hurricane. You depise this country and everything it stands for. You dont believe in the goodness of the people and you look to only find misery and equality of misery. It must be horrible to be you. You are probably happy that some of the people in this storm are suffering because of who they are and that the storm brought suffering to the rich as well as the poor. You are an rich, elitist who has no idea what the real world is all about.
Posted by msboggs at 08/31/2005 @ 12:30pm
Todd, I think you are taking a rather slanted view of the international charity situation. First of all, the tsunami was by far the worst natural disaster of our lives, and the impact of Katrina, while tragic, is miniscule in comparison. Cyclonic storms occur every year, not just in the US but in Central Americ, the Pacific Ocean and Indian Ocean. So many countries have to deal with these issues on an annual basis. Most countries in the world has storm-related damage and deaths, so the approach to these events is always going to be different.
Another aspect is that of course the rich USA is looked to for aid more than other, poorer countries. You cant give what you don't have! Charity must come from those that have because it can't come from have nots.
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/31/2005 @ 12:31pm
Its a matter of your own personal moral compass. You have your opinion. I think we are morally obligated and no I don't think we need to be thanked profusely. Thats narcissism. Look at me I'm so generous. A billion to tsunami victims, now I want the money back because I gave myself an irresponsible tax cut. oh yeah and you didn't thank me enough so I'm mad. We should lead the world by example. IMHO
Posted by Salunga at 08/31/2005 @ 12:37pm
Todd, I can see that you are in dire need of an economics lesson. Unfortunately, I don't have time to go into it right now in the detail required to dispell your delusions. So I will just say this: Go to a deserted island with no society and no infrastructure, no international trade, etc. See how much money you make. It will be nothing. You will be fortunate to scrape together the food, clothing and shelter needed for survival.
You need an interconnected economy and society to make money, and you depend on the labor of others, the resources of others, the capital of others, as we all do. Until you start making money in a vacuum, totally independent of any other person, resource, and capital, then you do not have an absolute right to do whatever you wish. We all have an obligation to others in society because we reap benefits from others in our society. That is a cold hard fact, and you should think about it.
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/31/2005 @ 12:41pm
Physics,
"Charity must come from those that have because it can't come from have nots."
I agree with you that you can't get blood out of a turnip, however there are other ways besides just cash or financial resources that countries can offer, namely manpower. People and boots on the ground, as we did and have done through out history, with the military, national guard, and red cross volunteers to clean up, build temporary shelters, rebuild infrastructure etc.
It's not all about the money, it's about a real heart to want to help, and my argument is that most countries are hypocritical in that they gladly accept our hand outs but rarely want to return the favor.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 12:50pm
Physics,
"We all have an obligation to others in society because we reap benefits from others in our society. That is a cold hard fact, and you should think about it."
I do not disagree with that. My question is still, then where is the "obligation to others in society" when it comes to other countries being obligated to helping out the U.S. ? Because they don't...
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 12:53pm
I've always wondered why right-wing wackos insist on commenting on progressive blogs. Are they mean spirited? Spiteful? Itching for a fight?. But then I realized: the right wing blogs don't allow any comments or dissention, so they have to come to the sites where free speech is tolerated.
Posted by dbaxter at 08/31/2005 @ 12:55pm
OKsportsguy, First of all, this is the first day of the catastrophe, and on the first day of the Tsunami, Americans were silent................ If you think you can't compare the US to EU as to there constitution, you can perhaps accept that as to the number of inhabitants it would be a more fair comparison.For me it seems reasonable that the US gives more to Tsunami victims than Togo, or the Virgin Ilands for exemple. But there is another important reason why rich countries should give more. Wealth has always been, since history is history, accumulated by military strong nations looting the natural resources of other countries. The US is not an exeption. You own them part of your wealth !
Posted by fenauxo at 08/31/2005 @ 12:57pm
Dbaxter,
"But then I realized: the right wing blogs don't allow any comments or dissention, so they have to come to the sites where free speech is tolerated."
To a degree you are absolutely right, and therefore I thank the Nation for hosting a blog that allows true debate, even from those "evil" conservatives like me that disagree with the majority of those on the Nation.
Right leaning blogs are all full of people that agree with each other, that's no fun for me. I want to be challenged, most of the people on the Right blogs are Bushites that continually make excuses for his inconsistencies, and Rush ditto heads.
Thank you The Nation!
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 1:01pm
FENAUXO,
"You own them part of your wealth !"
Ah..
There we go..
You are a communist, you just said it. "You owe them part of your wealth!"
Let me tell you something, communist, I don't "owe" them a pot to pee in. Show me the law that states I owe anyone anything via social redistribution of wealth?
I'm still waiting..
Thank you for showing your true colors.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 1:05pm
Zero,
Thanks for your direct response to me and your continuing comments. I always appreciate that you are honest and objective, unlike many on this site who see circumstances as merely means to political partisanship.
Keep fighting the good fight for honest liberalism, which even though I am in disagreement, I respect when posited by individuals like yourself.
Got to run until this evening.
Posted by love liberty at 08/31/2005 @ 1:30pm
ILP,
You are right about interconnectivity and helping each other. Our ongoing debated is on the role of Fed government, state and local governments, and individual responsibilities. If you want to increase the Fed responsibility in many of these areas that constitutionally belong at the state and/or local level, change the constitution.
No one argues the need, it is the who primarily, and then the when and how.
Posted by love liberty at 08/31/2005 @ 1:34pm
OKsportsguy, The years are passing by quickly, but you must still be living in the MCarthy period. I suppose your "communist" has to be taken as an insult? May I point out that a personel insult in a political discussion is called an Ad Hominem argument? And that ad hominem arguments are used by those who lack of other arguments? But it gives the sign to intelligent people to better leave the discussion!
Posted by fenauxo at 08/31/2005 @ 1:44pm
MSBOGGS, What ratio of rich to poor do you think exists in New Orleans? How about the United States? The looting that's happening in New Orleans as a result of this disaster is symptomatic of the harsh divide between the haves and the have nots that live in America today. Luckily, the small number of liberal elites and rich philanthropists that once lived in New Orleans will be in a postion now to sympathize with the "equality of misery" they now share due to this natural disaster or shall we say God's wrath. Maybe, it's the greedy folks' deserving of a comeuppance for refusing to break bread? There should be lots of fish, now, to distribute, eh? Sure that sounds harsh, but everything is ripe for political debate. From Monica Lewinsky to Terri Schiavo, it doesn't stop.
Countries are weaker when they're at war.
Bush's handicapp is not found in the green, but in the red, white and blue.
Posted by Shane at 08/31/2005 @ 1:51pm
"I suppose your "communist" has to be taken as an insult? "
You should take it as an insult in the same vein that I take "those darn Evangelical Christians" as an insult.
I'm sure you take pride in the fact that you embrace communism as "good" in the same way that I'm proud of the fact I'm an Evangelical Christian.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 1:54pm
Zero, Possibly to reassure the victims and rescue workers that major help is on the way. Come on you know this guy (bush) we need to know hes on the job or at least coming back to work. Concern yourself a bit less with getting the approval of your neocon buddies on the board. Believe me they like you. LL has thanked you. They all should thank you for the middle of the road mushy tone you set.
Posted by Salunga at 08/31/2005 @ 2:06pm
oksportsguy:
How much are you going to donate to help the people hurt by the hurricane? I'd like a barometer for what an Evangelical feels is appropriate in times like these. Also, how much did you donate when the tsunami hit last December?
Thanks.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 2:08pm
LOVE LIBERTY, the only legislation written now is your lovely corporate tax provisions that you know, keep all of our jobs in the west so safe.
Posted by Shane at 08/31/2005 @ 2:10pm
DBAXTER, They come here like they go to democratic campaign rallies. To try to drown out the message. Then a few crocodile thank yous and I really like you for listening blah blah. I've enough of this crap over the years. They are the great manipulators. They try to crush dissent anyway they can.
Posted by Salunga at 08/31/2005 @ 2:12pm
OKsportsguy! "Those darn evangelical christians"! It's a meager answer ! I do not know any overhere, evangelical christians, I mean, but I wouldn't give them any more importance as to their belonging than communists by putting their name in capital letters. I suppose there are good and bad christians, like there are good and bad communists. As I am neither, I can just show respect for their believe, the same as I expect from them tolerance as to my opinions.
Posted by fenauxo at 08/31/2005 @ 2:12pm
OKSG, I don't think you truly understand things the way you think you do. FENAUXO's comment about you "owing" other people is not communism. The first world has built a lot of its wealth through unfair trade situations with third world countries. This is just a fact of history, irrefuteable. If you care to research this, here is a link to help get you started:
http://globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Bananas.asp
If not, fine. let's continue. Do you drive to work? Probably have at some point. You use the internet. Probably have indoor plumbing connected to public water works. Most people do. We owe for those things, and pay in the form of taxes.
There is a similar principle involved on an international scale. Indonesia is a petroleum producer. They contribute to the world-wide supply to help keep the price low. You depend on their product to be able to make your contribution to the economy. Indonesian society, as a whole, has contributed to making your life better. It is a small part of it for sure, but it is there nonetheless.
And you may not want to accept it, but our government has been buddy buddy with Suharto, who ruled Indonesia for nearly 40 years. He was a brutal dictator who oppressed his people and exploited them. But our country was friendly to him because his tactics helped get the oil out to us.
And the scenario is and has been repeated in many countries, all over the globe. But now you act like you did it all yourself, and think those primitives should be grateful for your handouts. You think US wealth came down like mana from heaven, as a "blessing." Wrong.
You owe them whether you believe it or not.
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/31/2005 @ 2:28pm
Bloppy,
Stop being such a delusional faggot. Your anti-Americanism is only surpassed by your faggotism. Stop being such a colon conquistador leftist, and answer simple questions without insulting someone (after which you deserve to receive the same).
You are now on my 'ignore' list.
Posted by kmg4 at 08/31/2005 @ 2:31pm
Salunga:
breathe.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 2:31pm
OKSG, However, I must agree with your point about other countries being able to help in other ways. Maybe France could send soldiers on a humanitarian mission to the Gulf Coast, I don't know. Maybe it is against US law, or maybe the natives would turn out to be hostile to their presence. It certainly has happened to the US before.
But I can't help noticing that a Louisiana National Guard unit is off fighting in Iraq when their community needs them at home. If they were home maybe we wouldn't need any french troops.
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/31/2005 @ 2:34pm
I think the real story is this :
The US suffered a natural disaster. Yet, very few countries are bothering to offer us any aid. Sure, we have deep pockets of our own, and our infrastructure is good enough that in the US, only dozens die while in Indonesia, Sri Landa, etc. 220,000 die from a Tsunami.
But that does not mean that we could not benefit from help from other countries.
When there is a disaster anywhere else in the world, not only do we provide money, but also supplies, military relief assistance, use of our ships and planes, etc. We are criticized for not being fast enough or generous enough.
China wants to be a superpower. But where was their aid, to either the Tsunami or to the US after Hurricane Katrina? Where is the EU aid to the US after Hurricane Katrina?
People are so used to this double standard, that they don't even notice it. But it is a gross double standard...
Leftists find it harder and harder to hide their anti-Americanism under such circumstances.
Posted by kmg4 at 08/31/2005 @ 2:37pm
I wish van heuvel wouldn't say that natural disasters are above politics. Dealing with them shouldn't be hampered by politics - of course! Criticizing the relative level of preparation for them or the way they are handled is quite another matter. It is completely idiotic that such a huge number of national guardsmen are off in Iraq, and the fault for this lies with GWB, period. No way around that one.
Posted by Vic Perry at 08/31/2005 @ 2:37pm
I am not saying all conservatives are stupid, some are and some aren't. But most of them are uninformed. They don't like "social redistribution of wealth" when it is their wealth, but when it is wealth from another country it is ok. Because then it isn't social redistribution, it is a "blessing" from the giant Santa Claus that lives in the sky!
la la la, hum de hum hum, I'm not listening to you I can't hear you la de blah blah I'm a conservative and I don't research anything, I just decide what I want things to be like and that becomes reality.
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/31/2005 @ 2:39pm
Right, progressives are always talking about how great China is. Give it a rest KMG4. As you said, "sure, we have deep pockets of our own."
It's cool. Halliburton can rebuild New Orleans, ya know??
Posted by Vic Perry at 08/31/2005 @ 2:41pm
oksportsguy is clearly hypocritical:
He says he doesn't owe anyone a "pot to piss in", but he claims to be evangelical christian. Christians, regardless of denomination, if they truly live up to their moniker and follow the deeds of Jesus Christ, believe helping the poor and disenfranchised is duty, and obligation if you want to get to heaven.
You do owe people help oksportsguy, Jesus spent his life helping the poor and disenfranchised. Didn't you just post some parable about how it's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get to heaven? If there was ever someone who was living proof of that axiom, it's you.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 2:43pm
KMG4:
Please refrain from using obscenities. I think you probably have something substantive to add to the discussion, but you're going to have to dial down you're personal pettiness.
Thanks.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 2:45pm
URMYGYRO, You see, Jesus died for all their sins. So, they don't need to do anything, but just sit back and judge others.
Posted by Shane at 08/31/2005 @ 2:48pm
URMYGYRO,
Then notice that 'Bloppy' used obscenities towards me first. I merely retaliated.
Please be fair and recognize the obscenities used towards me before I used it. Otherwise, it is merely a double standard.
Posted by kmg4 at 08/31/2005 @ 2:49pm
So few people are talking about the fact we build so many cities in this country behind dikes, plus we are essentially ignoring the effects of global warming. In addition, upstream erosion is a large factor in stressing the capacity of engineered embankments.
My heart goes out to the folks in NO and the family of those lost by this tragedy. However, we have a huge problem that has been over 200 years in the making-- Its our collective lack of common sense environmental planning! Hopefully this is a time we can take stock of the real issues and stop talking about the meaningless.
Posted by John Deck at 08/31/2005 @ 2:51pm
KMG4 - I'm sorry, I didn't see Bloppy's use of obscentities.
Bloppy - Please refrain from using obscentities. It doesn't do anything to bolster your argument. If you keep it up, more and more people will add you to their "ignore list" and you'll be bored showing up here because no one will respond to you.
Also KMG4:
The question is: would we accept money from other countries? Or are we too proud? Would we accept other countries sending us food and manpower?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 2:57pm
"Its our collective lack of common sense environmental planning!"
What's your solution John Deck?
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 3:00pm
"How much are you going to donate to help the people hurt by the hurricane? I'd like a barometer for what an Evangelical feels is appropriate in times like these. Also, how much did you donate when the tsunami hit last December? "
$50.00 tsunami, and $50.00 for New Orleans.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 3:02pm
I don't think we want, collectively, help from other countries in dealing with the effects of the hurricane. It doesn't fit in with our "rugged individualsm" ideal.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 3:02pm
URMYGYRO,
Yes, I would accept money from other countries, although I doubt it was offered or that we need it. The US does not have the highest GDP per Capita in the world, so I don't think 'pride' limits us. Smaller countries like Norway, etc. are higher. We accept the help of others just like we gladly welcomed the troops of Canada, France, Australia, Britain, etc. to help us in Afghanistan in 2001.
Manpower would gladly be accepted, and is something we potentially need more of than money. THat is something we certainly don't have an abundance of, and is less pegged to whether a country is rich or poor. If another 50,000 emergency relief workers from other countries like Mexico, Brazil, India, etc. were sent over, we could benefit from that just as much as a Tsunami-hit Indonesia or Sri Lanka could.
Posted by kmg4 at 08/31/2005 @ 3:05pm
"God helps those who help themselves."
Perhaps, if we weren't spending such an obscene amount of our resources abroad chasing neocon/imperialist dreams we could take care of our problems ourselves.
LOVE LIBERTY:
If your concern is so great with an extra-constitutional action (ie Congress spending on the NO levees), then why no concern over a war without a formal declaration as required by that same document?
Posted by Maine_Raptor at 08/31/2005 @ 3:12pm
LOL.
oksportsguy: We couldn't be more different on so many issues. But guess what: I donated the exact same amount both time!
LOL
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 3:13pm
"And you may not want to accept it, but our government has been buddy buddy with Suharto, who ruled Indonesia for nearly 40 years. He was a brutal dictator who oppressed his people and exploited them. But our country was friendly to him because his tactics helped get the oil out to us."
What's the problem with that, if the oil was in our best interest AND the dictator was "playing nice with us" then befriend the dictator, when the free flow of oil to the US is in jeopardy, or when it fits our economic interests to give us availability to oil, and we get to kill some terrorists along the way i.e. Iraq, and the dictator is not "playing nice" (like in Saddam's case) then take him out.
We (the U.S.) aren't looking out for the best interest of the other nations, at least I hope we aren't, we are looking out for our self interests.
I you need proof, look at all of the wars that have happened in America, American interests were always towards the top of the list of reasons for our involvement.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 3:14pm
Zero, I stand corrected on your political beliefs. Point taken.
Posted by Salunga at 08/31/2005 @ 3:15pm
URMYGYRO: Thats a good question... Here are some ideas with regards to a solution to this mess:
1) US should fully embrace international treaties concerning global warming and should be a leader in this regard, not one of the rogue nations.
2) Demand soil conservation practices be followed. Currently US favors policies which merely encourage good practicies in this regard but this is not enough. Erosion in the Mississippi and other watersheds are lessening the utility of levees.
3) Enact tougher planning laws that are aligned with environmental science rather than politics. So much of planning in our country centers around who has the $ and NOT on what is best for the people or the environment.
While it is difficult to see an immediate change with any of these and may not do much to solve our immediate woes, if we start now we could see some positive affect in 20 years or so.
Posted by John Deck at 08/31/2005 @ 3:19pm
Zero, I stand corrected on your political beliefs. Point taken.
I can go without seeing him on television, forever, actually. But I know this guy and the opposition if they can get a political mile out of this be it crying about how the world has abandoned them or thats why foreign nations suck, they will. In not so many words thats what they are doing on this board today.
Posted by Salunga at 08/31/2005 @ 3:23pm
Todd, that is my point! The US is looking out for US interests, the Brits, French, Germans, etc. are doing the same. We use the leaders, governments, and peoples of other countries to help us economically, and you want to pretend that you do it all yourself.
Stop pretending! You owe them...
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/31/2005 @ 3:28pm
Urmy,
"You do owe people help oksportsguy, Jesus spent his life helping the poor and disenfranchised. Didn't you just post some parable about how it's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get to heaven? If there was ever someone who was living proof of that axiom, it's you. "
Wrong, I'm not rich...
And wrong, I don't "owe" any human anything.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 3:28pm
JOHN DECK, Thanks for an excellent post. I agree wholeheartedly.
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/31/2005 @ 3:29pm
"oksportsguy: We couldn't be more different on so many issues. But guess what: I donated the exact same amount both time!
LOL
"
Ironic, huh?
Perhaps maybe we aren't so different after all?
Ok, well.. ya we are = )
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 3:29pm
OKSG, Maybe a different word than "owe" would communicate the meaning better. Let me say "attribute," as in, much of the economic benefit you enjoy throughout your life can be attributed to the resources and actions of other people. Is that any clearer? I am trying to communicate without confusion here, and don't know if I am succeeding
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/31/2005 @ 3:32pm
Bush is on his way back to Washington as we speak. A day late and some tax dollars short. Maybe he can add this hurricane to his ongoing global warming research.
Posted by Salunga at 08/31/2005 @ 3:44pm
"Let me say "attribute," as in, much of the economic benefit you enjoy throughout your life can be attributed to the resources and actions of other people. Is that any clearer? "
I don't have a problem with attribute. I agree that we have stood next too, and on top of, and destroyed other civilizations when it was in the U.S's best interest, just ask the Native Americans, and the Mexicans. I can attribute some of the U.S.'s and my personal success in life to other countries, I draw the line on whether I "owe" them anything for their contribution.
However in the same vein, we (the U.S.) have "contributed" to many many nations, France and the Russia, during WW2, South Korea during the Korean war, just to name a few. Why do you never talk about our contributions to them, and do they not owe us for those said contributions if in fact you are arguing that I somehow owe them for their contributions?
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 3:45pm
Todd, Damn right France, Russia and other countries owe us for our help in WWII, but in the Soviet Union's case, Stalin's attitude was: Thanks for the help, but we don't owe you for it.
Just like your attitude?
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/31/2005 @ 3:51pm
ILOVEPHYSICS,
"Todd, Damn right France, Russia and other countries owe us for our help in WWII, but in the Soviet Union's case, Stalin's attitude was: Thanks for the help, but we don't owe you for it.
Just like your attitude?"
Thank you for pointing that out. I've been trying for the last 5 or so minutes to think of the right way to put it.
Posted by thejman at 08/31/2005 @ 4:00pm
Didn't France send an army and a fleet to help us at one time? Like oh the American Revolution. Remember the world will turn.
Posted by Salunga at 08/31/2005 @ 4:00pm
SALUNGA, Of course, and we returned the favor - twice! So if you want to keep score...
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/31/2005 @ 4:02pm
God bless those who suffer in New Orleans.
And Katrina, may the Lord grant you thicker skin.
Posted by Beausoleil at 08/31/2005 @ 4:09pm
I also wanted to add that everyone who graduated high school learned about all of the good things that America has done throughout its history (perhaps fueling some of the arrogance?), but they don't really learn of America's worst exploits such as the support of foreign dictators when it supports our interests, like oil or defeating communism. Even if they are killing there own citizens (as in the case of Saddam, Suharto, Contras in Nicaragua etc...). I know I don't remember learning about things like that in high school (and I graduated just 6 years ago). That's the problem. People aren't very informed & at the same time there are some people who work very hard to keep them that way.
Posted by thejman at 08/31/2005 @ 4:10pm
Thejman,
"I also wanted to add that everyone who graduated high school learned about all of the good things that America has done throughout its history (perhaps fueling some of the arrogance?), "
I don't have a problem with a certain amount of arrogance and pride in one's country. I think that might be part of the difference between conservatives and progressives on some issues.
Conservatives proudly wear our red white and blue and sing "proud to be an American" and then progressives get mad because they say they are just as American, and I believe they are, I just think that conservatives are more proud to expose their patriotism.
In a sense telling other countries "look at us we are America! All of that AND a bag of chips!" And progressives are a little more subdued with their patriotism.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 4:15pm
The point of the 4:10pm post was basically to make the point that most people only get one perspective of US history. The one they learn in high school.
Posted by thejman at 08/31/2005 @ 4:17pm
Or driving in their gass guzzling trucks hurling obscenities out the window along with empty cans of beer at us, while we offer silent peace vigils expressing our patriotism. Stereotypes are easy both ways.
Posted by Shane at 08/31/2005 @ 4:22pm
Conservatives proudly wear our red white and blue and sing "proud to be an American"
Well, I don't like to take pride in the work of others. After all, I am a US citizen because I was born here, which had nothing to do with me and everything to do with my parents.
If anyone should be proud that I am an american, it is Mom and Dad. I will content myself with being proud of America, and damn happy to live here.
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/31/2005 @ 4:27pm
Todd,
The following is for you.
"Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted."
Matthew 23:12
I was a bit surprised by your admission of arrogance and pride, even in country; you being a very Christian person.
Posted by oraibi1952 at 08/31/2005 @ 4:30pm
OKSG:
You say that you do not owe any "human" anything. Funny, because in other areas you seem to think that other humans owe you conformity with your personal religious beliefs. For example, woman owe you not to have an abortion because you personally oppose it. Gay people owe you not to be legally married because you claim Jesus condemns it.
Posted by Hman23 at 08/31/2005 @ 4:37pm
Its easier to be a nationalist. You don't have to think things through. Go with your base instincts. Make more balanced people feel guilty for even questioning any action of their country. Scare the weak ones into a corner on any debate with nationalist fervor. Worked for the nazis, works for the bushis.
Posted by Salunga at 08/31/2005 @ 4:48pm
ORAIBI1952
"Todd,
The following is for you.
"Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted."
Matthew 23:12
I was a bit surprised by your admission of arrogance and pride, even in country; you being a very Christian person.
"
Ya, too bad I'm not a perfect Christian, I really wish I were...
Back to what I was saying, I'm damn proud to be an American, and when are the other countries that expect us to help them in times of need going to start helping us?
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 4:49pm
Then feign indignation when compared to Nazis. Go on liberal blogs and try to take control of the thread. Be a general bully goofball.
Posted by Salunga at 08/31/2005 @ 4:50pm
"Gay people owe you not to be legally married because you claim Jesus condemns it. "
No gay people OWE it to themselves to not try to Marry themselves in Oklahoma unless they want to break the law. If they don't want to go to jail, they OWE it to themselves to not try to marry.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 4:50pm
Nothing surprises me about those low-lifes. The worst of it is tht their fans just slurp it up. Rush never met a tragedy he couldn't trivialize or mock.
Posted by MARIE HARRI at 08/31/2005 @ 4:53pm
Pretend your an ok guy. Be a complete ass then throw out the random compliment about how you appreciate the opportunity to post.
Posted by Salunga at 08/31/2005 @ 4:55pm
THEJMAN -- Why complain that kids aren't taught to hate America in high school? What do you think college is for? :-)
Posted by RonS at 08/31/2005 @ 4:57pm
Todd,
There's nothing wrong with a little pride. I don't really take to arrogance all that well though. I like to think that I am a very humble person. At least I try to be. As far as patriotism goes, I think Twain has it right: "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and the government when it deserves it." Thank you for not questioning the patriotism of progressives.
When Bush goes on TV and says disturbing things like:
"God told me to strike at al-Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East."
I take issue with those who put on their red, white & blue & cheer him on. I don't want to see the crusades redux. We really don't need a holy war.
Posted by thejman at 08/31/2005 @ 4:59pm
ORAIBI1952 and HMAN23:
Great posts at 4:30 and 4:37, respectively.
Regarding religion, I think George Calin sums it up best in his book "Napalm and Silly Putty":
Bullshit from the Sky
When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe - in awe! - of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest.
Religion - easily - has the Greatest Bullshit Story Ever Told! Think about it: religion has actually convinced people - many of them adults - that there's an invisible man who lives in the sky and watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And who has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.
And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to remain and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry, forever and ever, till the end of time. But he loves you!
He loves you, and he needs money! He always needs money. He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, but somehow...he just can't handle money. Religion takes in billions of dollars, pays no taxes, and somehow needs a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy shit!
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 5:02pm
Oksportsguy:
The problem is you're proud to be an American. Pride is a sin, one of the seven deadliest. You should be glad.
Be proud of your accomplishments. Being proud of where you're from is like being proud of you're hair color or skin color or some other trait you don't control.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 5:06pm
OKSG:
You avoided my point entirely. I am not talking about the state of the law in Oklahoma. I am asking about the underlying rationale for those people, like you, who support that law - as well as your stance on abortion (which you totally ignored by the way). You seem to be all for economic liberty, but not so for personal liberties. It's the hypocracy of the political Evangelical Christians - they want everyone else out of their business, but they continually support laws that intrude on the personal liberties of others.
Posted by Hman23 at 08/31/2005 @ 5:12pm
"Pretend your an ok guy. Be a complete ass then throw out the random compliment about how you appreciate the opportunity to post. "
Are you referring to me?
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 5:18pm
Zero:
I'll trade in some Michaeangelos for less "faith based initiatives" worldwide.
The "my god has a bigger dick than your god" drama has done lots of harm throughout human history.
Hindus and Muslims and Jews and Christians have been killing eachother for thousands of years because God told them it's the right thing to do. The bloodiest and most brutal wars have been based on religious hatred.
The religious people kill eachother because they believe in the righteousness of their religious beliefs and in the "sanctity of life". Sanctity of life is a term living people promote. Hmmm. Could there be some self-interest involved? It's based on a biased view, to make ourselves feel noble. But let me ask you: if everything that ever lived is dead, and everything alive is going to die, where does the sacred part come in?
Even with all the preaching about the sanctity of life, we don't practice it. Look at what we kill: mosquitos and flies, because they're pests. Lions and tigers, because it's fun. Chickens and pigs, because we're hungry. And people. We kill people. Because they're pests. And because it's fun!
Sanctity of life doesn't apply to cancer cells. No "save the tumors" bumper stickers. Viruses, molds, mildew, maggots, fungus, weeds, intestinal worms, E.coli bacteria, the crabs. Nothing sacred about those things. Just us.
Sanctity of life is, at best, selective. Some forms of life are sacred, and we kill the rest.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 5:21pm
TheJman,
"We really don't need a holy war. "
I agree, although instead of attacking Bush for his statements (which I fully support your right in doing) you might want to talk to the Muslim terrorists that flew planes into New York and the ones that are blowing themselves up in London and Israel, you know the ones screaming "kill the infidels" and "this is the Holy War".
But just in case you don't get a chance to talk to them and get them to stop, I'll support our troops as they kill them.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 5:22pm
Great works of religious inspired art commissioned by the church through the money amassed by telling people the souls of their loved ones were burning in purgatory.
Posted by Shane at 08/31/2005 @ 5:22pm
"It's the hypocracy of the political Evangelical Christians - they want everyone else out of their business, but they continually support laws that intrude on the personal liberties of others."
Yep...
You pretty much nailed it...
And I don't think you are going to change our core value system either, or at least I wouldn't hold your breath.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 5:24pm
OKSG - so your core value system includes intruding on the personal liberties of others? Just checking.
Posted by Fishbite at 08/31/2005 @ 5:27pm
Now that we have defined OKSG (chuckle), I was thinking about another issue related to Katrina:
I have been reading plenty about how Katrina is going to affect gas prices because of the damage done to refineries in the Gulf area hit by the hurricane, as well as the supply lines. We have already seen a jump in gas prices. It is almost a foregone conclusion that consumers will have to pay higher prices. Call me a paranoid pessimest, but I have not seen any discussion on the potential for price gouging by energy and oil/gas companies. I understand that what is done is done, and Katrina certainly will affect the costs for some of these energy companies. As such, I understand that consumers may see some increase in prices. However, I also think that this burden should be shared by corporations as well. But, how do we know that these corporations are not just going to pass along all increased costs to consumers? I would be very inetersted to see the quarterly financials for some of these companies in a few months. Maybe, I am off base, and they will take a hit, but it would not surprise me if the bottom line was as if the storm never happened.
Posted by Hman23 at 08/31/2005 @ 5:33pm
Todd,
Ya, too bad I'm not a perfect Christian, I really wish I were... Todd.
My point exactly.
Posted by oraibi1952 at 08/31/2005 @ 5:37pm
HMAN23 -
Of course the cost will entirely, or almost entirely, be passed on to the consumer. Corporations and rich individuals exist to be rich, the middle class exists to make the corporations and rich individuals rich.
Some middle class folk are upwardly mobile enough to escape to the wealthy class, but, by and large, the wealthy class is a class of inheritence.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 5:44pm
yeah, URMYGYRO and HMAN23, by law corporations are required to maximize profit. Charitable donations, are permitted, however, under the law.
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/31/2005 @ 5:52pm
Nothing substantial though. Can't effect the bottom line lest we hurt the shareholders.(and our CEO's vacation itinerary.
Posted by Shane at 08/31/2005 @ 5:57pm
New Reality show: Where in the World is George Dubya? Contestants who find him get to travel to each exotic golf course and take a few swings with the party guy himself.
Posted by Shane at 08/31/2005 @ 6:01pm
"OKSG - so your core value system includes intruding on the personal liberties of others? Just checking."
Actually, my argument goes like this...
Women that choose to have an abortion are intruding on the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of the unborn baby. So if you want to preach to someone for infringing on the "liberties of others" then you are preaching to the wrong side my friend.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 6:01pm
Or this one's even better: Where in the World is Osama Bin Laden?--contestants challenge the CIA in seeing who can find him first. The winner gets a chance to golf with both GW and Osama.
Posted by Shane at 08/31/2005 @ 6:05pm
Perhaps I will have to shift the old statement used to quell you guys when you were pushing for increased gun laws from "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers, to you can be "entitled" to my wealth when you pry it from my cold dead fingers".
That sounds a lot like Bush's "Bring it on!" Or what the Russian nobility and capitalists were saying to the peasants in 1916.
And as far as foreign countries donating to the USA after disaster, I know there were a hell of a lot of blood drives and financial collection taken in Canada after 9/11 (the blood was refused- the US didn't want socialist Canadian blood, and the money was accepted without any apparent trace of gratitude). A great deal of Canadian money was also sent to Oklahoma after the bombing there.
Posted by madalch at 08/31/2005 @ 6:06pm
I love Canada. You guys are great, especially Dan Akroyd, aka Elwood Blues.
LAWMAN
Posted by lewwelge at 08/31/2005 @ 6:26pm
yeah, Canada rocks the house. Their macrobreweries (Molson and Labatt) are way better than ours (Budweiser and Miller).
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/31/2005 @ 6:29pm
Where's the link Frank?
Posted by Shane at 08/31/2005 @ 6:38pm
Found it.
Posted by Shane at 08/31/2005 @ 6:41pm
OKSG – Hold on there, I'm not doing the preaching. You're the one doing the preaching my friend. So you'll protect the personal liberties of a fetus, but not adult homosexuals? Again, just checking.
Posted by Fishbite at 08/31/2005 @ 6:50pm
Madalch
Amazing how selfcentered Americans are, talking about "financiel help from other Nations" They do not even KNOW, that China lost 1200 people in floods, and more than 900 000 houses were distroyed. They do not even KNOW that Senegal is suffering terrible floods this very moment, nor that Bangladesh lost 500 citizens not even a month ago.
Posted by fenauxo at 08/31/2005 @ 7:05pm
In terms of waiting for financial or other assistance from other nations, perhaps our current and former allies in the Coalition of the Willing are waiting for their payola before "offering their assistance". Hey Poland, we're waiting...
Or perhaps other countries might offer to help us the way we have helped the Iraqis.
I know I'm being stupid, but those here asking for help remind me of old ladies who get angered when young people don't respond with the proper thank you card within the proper allotment of time. Are we a good nation who helps when we are needed or are we the mafia who has a favor at the ready?
I agree with Zero that now is not the time for politicians to get on their soapboxes. However, action would have been nice. I live near those states that were hit and watched the storm for days as it strengthened and followed the forecasted track. Why on earth did it take so long for the local authorities to react and why has it taken so long for the national agencies to get in gear? It required little imagination to envision what has become reality.
Let us pray that there are no more 5-week vacations. There seems to be too strong a connection between them and American tragedies.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 08/31/2005 @ 7:18pm
TJBehrens
Not to say that your White House stopped the necessary works on the levees in New Orleans last year (see WP of today Dan Frankin), because the funds were needed for Iraq. Floods in Bangladesh or Senegal are understandable, but that the richest nation of the world does not repair its levees...............
Posted by fenauxo at 08/31/2005 @ 7:30pm
The Bush Administration has demonstrated again its inability to think abstractedly, and in the process they have failed the people of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama; and our nation.
There is no reason that the military is not on the ground in the Hurricane Katrina-stricken states except for the reasons of incompetence or obtuseness on the part of the Bush Administration.
The same type of non-abstract thinking that applied to post-war, non-planning for Iraq also applies to the lack of pre-planning and recovery planning for Hurricane Katrina.
It's no wonder that we are "waist deep in the Big Muddy"; both in Iraq and at home in America.
Posted by oraibi1952 at 08/31/2005 @ 7:32pm
FENAUXO, That is a stereotype that is just plain wrong. Not all of us are like that.
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 08/31/2005 @ 7:51pm
Don't know if anyone has thought about this yet, but the Bush administration might have just received a giant Christmas present in July. If they can come off with some sort of success in attending the needs of the hurricane ravaged cities and its peoples, his approval ratings could head back up and he might be able to spend some more of his "political capital"...only a "free marketer" could some how inject monetary illustrations into political clout.
Posted by BlueTexan at 08/31/2005 @ 7:54pm
The question no one seems to be addressing is...why wasn't New Orleans vacated under the orders of the mayor PRIOR to the storm hitting? I do have compassion for everyone that had to be rescued, but I just want to know why they didn't leave. Some folks might not have had cars...that's about the only reason I can see why people might have stayed behind. The city should have put people on buses and moved them out. I just don't understand that part of it.
Posted by BlueTexan at 08/31/2005 @ 7:57pm
Zero,
We need to keep the heat on the Bush Administration for their failed pre-planning for HK.
There is no reason that troops couldn't be on the ground right now. We do have airborne and air assault capability. The airborne troops could have been in place within two hours of HK clearing the coast line. Hard rain would not have keep the troops carrier airplanes and helicopters from landing.
Heck, I've been in the backseat of an F-16 fighter jet when we landed on icy runways; some what more dangerous than deploying troops in the rain.
No, the Bush Administration has failed the nation again; and I'm very serious about this and not just being political.
Posted by oraibi1952 at 08/31/2005 @ 8:16pm
Zero,
The news media has been in the HK devastated, coastal areas since within a few hours of the storm leaving the coast.
Posted by oraibi1952 at 08/31/2005 @ 8:20pm
Frank,
The President should have put the Navy and the rest of the military at a high-level of readiness with a 2-4 hour response time being the objective.
Bush and his administration has failed the nation, again; just like with Iraq, a war of choice.
Posted by oraibi1952 at 08/31/2005 @ 8:22pm
Think about how quick Bush and his administration responded to the hurricanes that hit Florida in 2003 and 2004.
Posted by oraibi1952 at 08/31/2005 @ 8:24pm
Frank,
Where are the helicopters landing?
Posted by oraibi1952 at 08/31/2005 @ 8:26pm
Frank,
I agree that it takes time to mobilize and load up supplies, and that is why I'm very critical of the Bush Administration for not doing sufficient pre-planning for HK.
Your statement about time to mobilize and load up supplies helps make my point about the lack of pre-planning.
Posted by oraibi1952 at 08/31/2005 @ 8:28pm
Frank,
We used mobilize and launch 24 F-16 aircraft and 20-30 C-141 aircraft filled with troops and supplies within 24 hours of initial notification. The President and his staff have no sense of urgency for the people harmed by HK.
Posted by oraibi1952 at 08/31/2005 @ 8:30pm
Madalch,
"That sounds a lot like Bush's "Bring it on!"
Ya, pretty much..
So bring it on, if you think you are entitled to the social redistribution of my wealth (what little of it there is anyway).
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 8:30pm
Fishbite,
"So you'll protect the personal liberties of a fetus, but not adult homosexuals? "
Ya, I view fetuses as pure and innocent, and you keep trying to make it seem like I'm a gay basher...
I love gay people, gay people are cool!
They just shouldn't marry, not in my state anyway, they can move to California or New Hampshire, I think they allow gays to marry up there.
Todd
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 8:34pm
Frank,
You maybe right about the vote thing; but it is much more serious than that with this administration. The Bush Administration seems to have no ability to do serious abstract thinking; except for politics.
Posted by oraibi1952 at 08/31/2005 @ 8:36pm
Perhaps it is the money thing.
Posted by oraibi1952 at 08/31/2005 @ 8:38pm
Bluetexan,
"The question no one seems to be addressing is...why wasn't New Orleans vacated under the orders of the mayor PRIOR to the storm hitting? I do have compassion for everyone that had to be rescued, but I just want to know why they didn't leave. Some folks might not have had cars...that's about the only reason I can see why people might have stayed behind"
Current estimates depending upon which news report you are watching/reading suggest that as many as 50,000 people stayed behind.
From what I am reading those that stayed didn't stay out of disobedience, they were primarily mostly poor that didn't have cars or other transportation to get out. It's very sad but it looks like those left behind were left behind simply because they didn't have the financial resources to get a ride out of there.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 8:39pm
Todd,
You are correct about why many of the people stayed behind in New Orleans; no transportation.
The failure to provide mass transportation to evacuate New Orleans was the fault of the Mayor, the Governor, and the President.
Posted by oraibi1952 at 08/31/2005 @ 8:41pm
Plain Bruce,
"Do you support the seatbelt laws? Helmet laws? Child carseat laws? legalizing ALL drugs? Banning cell phones while driving? legalizing DUI? These all fall under "personal liberties" that you so desperately want to protect."
Wonderful comeback argument Plain Bruce, I will start to use that the next time more progressives label me evil and bigoted for my pro choice stance in terms of "personal liberties".
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 8:41pm
Todd
I don't want your wealth, but there are billions of people on this planet who do. Those of us in wealthy countries ignore the plight of the third world at our own peril...
...says the man who has given to charity exactly once in the past ten years (I'm not perfect either).
Posted by madalch at 08/31/2005 @ 8:44pm
Madalch,
"...says the man who has given to charity exactly once in the past ten years (I'm not perfect either)."
I'm not here to judge you personally on what you give or how much you give to charity, but in essence you have stumbled across the chasm between conservatives and progressives in terms of aid to other people.
I do give to charities, the Red Cross, my church, Feed the Children. I like to distribute my wealth when it's MY CHOICE on who it goes too, how much they get, and most importantly, I have some control in knowing that my resources are going to be utilized correctly.
I don't trust the government with redistributing my wealth, the feds already use my federal tax dollars to fund abortions for those on medicaid.
I will socially redistribute my wealth because I want to be a good steward of my resources, and the government isn't.
Where it seems as if most progressives would like to see the government more involved in social programs that redistribute wealth from those that have it, to those that don't.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 08/31/2005 @ 8:49pm
Pride is always inappropriate.
Posted by jonb at 08/31/2005 @ 8:55pm
BTW, I saw in an e-mail that GE had donated $1000000 to the Red Cross, and was matching employee contributions at 50%. To date, employees had given approximately $130000.
Posted by jonb at 08/31/2005 @ 8:57pm
It is a good thing to stop smoking. It is not a good thing if the government makes you stop smoking.
It is a good thing to give to the poor. It is not a good thing if the government makes you give to the poor.
It is the whole idea of freedom as opposed to slavery.
republicans vs democrats. (Though the republicans are a sorry lot, they are worlds better than the alternative.)
Posted by jonb at 08/31/2005 @ 9:00pm
That is the great divide of american politics.
Never be a third party.
Posted by jonb at 08/31/2005 @ 9:03pm
gotta run. I have a dinner date with my youngest daughter.
All y'all have a nice night!
Posted by jonb at 08/31/2005 @ 9:04pm
Zero,
I happened to be in the Keys at the end of last week when Katrina brushed past Thursday night/Friday morning. The forecast at that time was that HK would get up to a Category 4 and head for the AL/MS state line. It hit very close to there a little over 3 days after I experienced it in its much more gentle form. It took two days for the local officials in New Orleans and elsewhere to pay attention so we shouldn't expect the feds to do better. But people at all levels of responsibility blew it. Clearly the biggest issue for New Orleans was the misguided trust in the levees. When you think of other vulnerable areas such as the Outer Banks of NC or the Florida Keys, residents and visitors recognize that they have no protection and get the hell out when even a small storm approaches. That the southern gulf states waited so long is criminal.
As Frank has pointed out, copters are landing. But the ships that could have been nearby will not arrive in the gulf states until early to mid week...that's next week. It's just so sad, so incredibly awful.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 08/31/2005 @ 10:10pm
Todd,
Sorry for the late response. In re your 5:22pm response to me, you said:
"I agree, although instead of attacking Bush for his statements (which I fully support your right in doing) you might want to talk to the Muslim terrorists that flew planes into New York and the ones that are blowing themselves up in London and Israel, you know the ones screaming "kill the infidels" and "this is the Holy War".
But just in case you don't get a chance to talk to them and get them to stop, I'll support our troops as they kill them."
Well, I don't think that OBL and co. are really all that religious. I think that they use religion as a means to their ends. In your 3:14 post you said:
"What's the problem with that, if the oil was in our best interest AND the dictator was "playing nice with us" then befriend the dictator, when the free flow of oil to the US is in jeopardy, or when it fits our economic interests to give us availability to oil..."
Well dude, we did that & look what happened. OBL and others got mad, got religious & rallied some fanatics & flew airplanes into 2 buildings in NYC. Now why would say "play nice with the dictator" who oppresses & beats the living shit out of these people? How could you advocate "playing nice" with a murderous thug. You want to invite him to your house for milk & cookies just so you have access to cheap oil even though it may result in terrorist attacks like those of 9/11? I mean, I know some people do, but c'mon.
Posted by thejman at 08/31/2005 @ 10:46pm
RONS,
Again, sorry for the late responses. When are you going to stop saying that everyone here but your conservative friends hate America? When we deny history & say "the US never supported harsh dictators who beat the shit out of their citizens, who then get extremely pissed at us & carry out guerrilla style terrorist attacks" & "the US never enslave anyone" & " the US never allowed child labor in harsh conditions"? Is that when it's going to stop?
Posted by thejman at 08/31/2005 @ 10:50pm
THEJMAN:
"Again, sorry for the late responses. When are you going to stop saying that everyone here but your conservative friends hate America? When we deny history & say "the US never supported harsh dictators who beat the shit out of their citizens, who then get extremely pissed at us & carry out guerrilla style terrorist attacks" & "the US never enslave anyone" & " the US never allowed child labor in harsh conditions"? Is that when it's going to stop?"
I never said any of the things you quoted, nor am I a conservative. You guys need to get a sense of humour and perspective. To try to get a sense of humour, re-read my statement. For perpsective, think about the fact that a left wing blog gets over 256 responses because the millionairess VANDENEVIL is bent out of shape over what conservative commentators have said about her name, and Ari's blog about Darfur got about 96 comments.
Posted by RonS at 08/31/2005 @ 11:31pm
Got the Rons:
Most of the talk on this thread hasn't been about Katrina Vanden Heuvel personally. You should think about getting your facts right.
Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2005 @ 11:37pm
OKSG: " "look at us we are America! All of that AND a bag of chips!" And progressives are a little more subdued with their patriotism."
No, the difference is that conservatives tend to equate patriotism with blind, unquestioning faith in their government while progressives tend to believe in the founding principles of our country (and would proudly trumpet pride from the hill tops if we'd do a better job of sticking to them).
Posted by AnonymousDog at 08/31/2005 @ 11:38pm
ANONYMOUSDOG,
That is a crock. 'Progressives', who are actually the most regressive, fanatical, and illogical members of society, clearly hate the US and are do anything they can to hurt the US. They are an active fifth-column in America.
The good news is, people have figured that out, and are preventing them from forcing their sordid agenda onto normal people.
Posted by kmg4 at 08/31/2005 @ 11:56pm
Also, OKG, what's your solution to the problem posed below anyway? "I don't trust the government with redistributing my wealth, the feds already use my federal tax dollars to fund abortions for those on medicaid."
What, exactly, do we do with those babies born into terribly impoverished homes? Your side seems to progressively dismantle the public programs intended to help them...and, please, don't "turn back the clock" by talking about how you'd somehow convince all those pregnant women never to have had sex (or be raped) in the first place; neither side appears very effective at lessening our society's overall promiscuity...the last time there was a serious dent in promiscuous sex among young people it took the 80's AIDS scare to do it. Without public programs for such unsavory dilemnas as our nation's youth poverty rates, private charities will not suffice...people, overall (not you, necessarily), are too selfish and simply don't give enough. Or, perhaps, they choose only those charitable organizations whose missions seems to match the donors' beliefs, that they feel "sure" enough about...a natural-enough seeming constraint, yes? Of course, then people are denied aid because of some unwelcome belief they hold, or their religious affiliation, or their government's intractibility (think unspent congressional appropriations for African aid there), etc. You get the idea. And, of course, REALLY unsavory problems just don't get addressed...charities are funny about public image that way.
If you take your disdain for forced donation to it's logical conclusion, we'll be eliminating progressive income tax, Social Security, SSD, Medicaire, Medicaid, etc -- any taxation for any social program. So, that includes parks systems, utilities infrastructure, roadway systems, and a whole slew of federal regulating departments -- those are all based on forced donations.
Only the VERY few items specifically mentioned in the Constitution as duties of the fed would get tax money -- that, mostly, would be the "militia", a term whose meaning has been fully perverted into the military-industrial machine and which has become a public welfare system of its own, and administrative costs of government. Bah! All that does is allow unfettered capitalism to rape everyone but the strong men and corporate elite. (Please, don't try to defend capitalism as some pure, perfect good -- it's not.)
Posted by AnonymousDog at 09/01/2005 @ 12:24am
KMG4, I had seriously contemplated the assertions made in some of your previous posts, but I appreciate your now having ruled out the possibility that you might have anything inteligent to write.
Posted by AnonymousDog at 09/01/2005 @ 12:27am
Anonymousdog:
Yes! KMG4 has been outed quite nicely by you. He lives in the same world as NACL, they are both very hateful towards anyone, especially liberal Americans, that differ from their political ideologies.
Capitalism tries for a delicate balance: It attempts to work things out so that everyone gets just enough stuff to keep them from getting violent and trying to take other people's stuff.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 12:39am
URMYGYRO, thank you for that last humorous bit...made my day!
Posted by AnonymousDog at 09/01/2005 @ 12:55am
Leaving the moniker for this disaster aside, the devastation offers America another chance to see GW Bush in action, as he fails again as leader of this country.
The US Army Corp of Engineers were short changed on theri efforts to fix the problems in the Gulf, because of Bush - the National Guard has been stripped of valueable people and resources to defend their local populations against Mother Nature.
The storm was rated a large serious CAT5 24 hours before landfall - with record setting pressures in the very low 900mB range, Gulf temps 4 to 5 degrees above normal - why did Bush wait?
Why wasn't the National Guard and FEMA notified on Friday or Saturday to gear up?
Think about how long it has taken for the response, and then go read Editor and Publisher here
link
and here
link
Now, after reading these - ask yourself how prepared we are for an attack by Al-Qaeda or the next Time McVeigh.
Posted by shpilk at 09/01/2005 @ 01:12am
"OKSG - so your core value system includes intruding on the personal liberties of others? Just checking."
Actually, my argument goes like this...
Women that choose to have an abortion are intruding on the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of the unborn baby. So if you want to preach to someone for infringing on the "liberties of others" then you are preaching to the wrong side my friend.
Todd, I'm guessing from your argument that you are fairly conservative. If so, does espousing such 'extra judical activist' views cause you any philosopical pain? You are after all creating an entirely new set of government entitlements, for an entirely new class of Americans. I'm curious how this will work: when are the fetuses granted these rights? When the sperm hits the egg? If so the mothers will have to check immediatly into a hospital in case of an all too common spontanious abortion? After all, a life is a life and due dilligence demands medical protection, no? Once we have solved this problem we shall have to turn our attention to protecting the other living organisms found in the human body; cancer cells for instance, are living, growing organisms and incidently have just as much brain wave activity.
Posted by studntbdyrt at 09/01/2005 @ 01:48am
To extend discussion of the sanctity of life b.s. - let's address the sanctity of marriage oksportsguy seems to believe in so much that he is against gay people being allowed to marry. Apparently, oksportsguy thinks gay people will spoil the sanctity of marriage.
Well, here are some statistics:
- Couples marrying today who are between the ages of eighteen and twenty-four have a 75% chance of divorcing.
- The average first-time marriage of the above-described couple will last approximately seven years.
- Those remarrying will have an even greater chance of divorce the second timer around.
- The number of single parent households is one third the number of two parent households.
Approximately 50% of marriages end in divorce. 1 in 2. Yeah - when it fails half the time the institutions is really "sacred".
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 02:12am
ANONYMOUSDOG,
Deny your true nature clumsily if you must, but people have figured out the true nature of leftists.
That is why even the Democratic Senators have rejected the leftist drive against America, and are voting in lockstep with Republicans on important issues like the Patriot Act, tax cuts, the Iraq War, and now, Roberts' SCOTUS confirmation.
While some leftists do it consciously, others do it subconsciously, but their actions are visibly directly in opposition to the interests of the United States of America.
Posted by kmg4 at 09/01/2005 @ 02:17am
And as far as distribution of wealth, what is funny is that leftists/communists scream about redistribution, but are deafeningly silent on the issue of wealth creation. Distribute wealth, they bray, never realizing that wealth has to be created first.
It is obvious that leftists feigned altruism of 'helping the poor' is merely juvenile envy of those who are smarter and more productive than they (the 'rich'). Leftists/communists can't achieve something, so they want to spoil it for someone else in a juvenile display of envy.
There is nothing more to it than that.
Posted by kmg4 at 09/01/2005 @ 02:23am
Oraibi1952 wroteI agree that it takes time to mobilize and load up supplies, and that is why I'm very critical of the Bush Administration for not doing sufficient pre-planning for HK.
Your statement about time to mobilize and load up supplies helps make my point about the lack of pre-planning.
We need to keep the heat on the Bush Administration for their failed pre-planning for HK.
Salunga wrote: Bush is on his way back to Washington as we speak. A day late and some tax dollars short. Maybe he can add this hurricane to his ongoing global warming research.
Posted by SALUNGA 08/31/2005 @ 3:44pm
Every time I come back and scan this site I remain amazed at the seeming ignorance or willful ignoring of the facts by some liberals who post here (again with apologies to those liberals who care about facts). But there are many similar comments like the samples I show at the beginning of this post.
Giving some of you the benefit of the doubt, here are the facts about how President Bush was putting the resources and orgainizations in place to help the people of the Gulf States.
The President did activate FEMA prior to Katrina hitting the Gulf States.
http://www.fema.gov/emanagers/2005/nat082805.shtm
State and Federal Preparedness for Hurricane Katrina Federal Actions:
The FEMA National Response Coordination Center (NRCC) Red Team is activated at Level I (Full Activation). FEMA headquarters is conducting daily video-teleconferences at noon EDT with FEMA Region IV, the National Hurricane Center and the potentially affected States. The FEMA ERT-N (Blue) team was activated and deployed to Baton Rouge, LA at noon August 27. FEMA Region IV: The RRCC in Atlanta activated at Level I (full activation). FEMA Region VI: The RRCC in Denton, TX activated at Level I (full activation).
State Actions:
Alabama EOC is activating, with full operations on 8/27. Florida EOC is at Level 1 (full activation). Georgia EOC is at Level 1 operations. Mississippi EOC activated, State of Emergency has been declared. Louisiana EOC is fully activated, with mandatory evacuation orders issued.
On Saturday, 2 days before Katrina hit:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html
STATEMENT BY THE PRESS SECRETARY
The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.
The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn.
Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent Federal funding.
Representing FEMA, Michael D. Brown, Under Secretary for Emergency Preparedness and Response, Department of Homeland Security, named William Lokey as the Federal Coordinating Officer for Federal recovery operations in the affected area
It seems to me that Bush like all presidents of either party before him, react quickly and decisively in these natural disasters. It is not a partisan issue as a few want so badly to make it to be.
Most of us pull together in these situations without regard to political philosophies. That is one of the great strengths of the American people. It is only those myopic few who lack the integrity or character to look past politics in time of national emergencies that perpetuate some of the nonsense that is posted here.
Posted by love liberty at 09/01/2005 @ 02:25am
And to extend the conversation to the war on drugs that Americans such as oksportsguy thinks are so worthwhile, here are some more statistics:
- the most seriously addicting illegal drugs in America are heroin and cocaine, which kill 2,000 - 3,000 people a year.
- Due to unsanitary needles, injectable drugs cause about a third of the nation's cases of HIV infection.
- Together, all illegal drugs combined are thought to be responsible for perhaps 7,500 deaths a year in America.
- Alcohol, a legal drug, is implicated in 150,000 deaths a year.
- Cigarettes kill 460,000 Americans a year.
- The legal drugs of alcohol and cigarettes kill 570 times the number of people that illegal drugs kill.
- By the most optimistic estimates, law enforcement officials seize only 10-15 percent of illegal drug shipments imported into the United States.
Let's spend all sorts of crazy money on a "war on drugs" that doesn't include the drugs that are real killers. Sounds insane.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 02:25am
KMG4:
If leftists are really as irrelevant as you claim, it seems rather odd that you give them so much attention.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 02:38am
URMYGYRO,
Irrelevant through elected branches of government, yes. However, leftists realized that as long as Americans are allowed to vote, leftist ideas will never be accepted. Hence, leftists try there schemes through the courts, university, and media. Their de-facto alliance with Islamic fundamentalism is dangerous as well.
Leftists still have the power to do great harm to America through undermining our efforts to keep America safe.
Posted by kmg4 at 09/01/2005 @ 02:42am
KMG4 wrote:
"It is obvious that leftists feigned altruism of 'helping the poor' is merely juvenile envy of those who are smarter and more productive than they (the 'rich'). Leftists/communists can't achieve something, so they want to spoil it for someone else in a juvenile display of envy."
Our myths teach that anyone can grow up to be president or a millionaire. Yet, in reality, America has ony one president at a time, and millionaires are literally fewer than one in a million. Individuals constantly drift between feeling great power in determining their own destinies and feeling powerless to accomplish much of anything by themselves. Living in a culture that promises individual happiness and success but fails to provide the means for the vast majority to achieve it causes a great many social problems.
KMG4: are you on this website on a rather consistent basis simply to tell leftists or progressives that you despise their nonconformity to your views? If not, why are you here?
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 02:53am
KMG4:
So you think by anonymously posting on the nation.com you're fighting American political leftists, and by extension, Islamic fundamentalism? That's your contention?
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 02:57am
KMG4:
Do you think Bush's insistence on leaving the borders open to illegal immigrants is helping keep America safe?
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 03:00am
KMG4:
So you think by anonymously posting on the nation.com you're fighting American political leftists, and by extension, Islamic fundamentalism? That's your contention?
No. I am just here for entertainment purposes. I do my actual fighting at the voting booth and in other tangible ways.
Posted by kmg4 at 09/01/2005 @ 03:05am
URMYGYRO,
You think only one in a million is a millionaire in the US? Not true at all. About 8% of the households in the US have a net worth over $1 billion. That is nearly 1 in 12. This is easily verifiable at www.census.gov, and elsewhere.
I also believe that the average person in America does have wealth that most in the world would envy. Check out the Human Development ranks of various countries at www.undp.org.
Posted by kmg4 at 09/01/2005 @ 03:08am
KMG4:
Since 1982, temporary employment in the U.S. has increased nearly 250 percent, while overall employment grew only 20 percent. As a result, these workers suffer the increased stress that comes with a lack fo job security and benefits, adn their numbers are increasing. Many temporary workers complain of feeling like dehumanized objects, mere "fixtures". Temporary employees have become attractive to companies in large part because they lack the rights enjoyed by full-time workers. They save employers a great deal in labor costs because they rarely receive beenfits such as medical, dental, or eyecare insurance, have no pension plans, and sometimes earn minimum wage or below. Plus, if the employees are hired through an agency, the company doesn't have to worry about two large concerns: unemployment insurance and workers compensation.
The temporary and exploited workers of the U.S. won't hold their collective breaths waiting for you to lobby Congress to help them achieve more stable job environments in which to work.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 03:11am
KMG4:
Do you think Bush's insistence on leaving the borders open to illegal immigrants is helping keep America safe?
No, not at all. I think the border should be sealed. If America LEGALLY needs 1 million, 5 million, or 10 million new immigrants a year, then so be it, pass that law and maintain that quota. BUT keep it legal, and recorded.
Neither party will address this issue, however, until something really bad happens that can be traced to the open border.
So, it take it you are a leftist who is opposed to the open border. That is actually rare, and I commend you. Many leftists favor an open border, as talk of sealing the border is immediately branded as racist.
Do you support the brief experiment conducted by the Minute Men?
Posted by kmg4 at 09/01/2005 @ 03:11am
"...why there aren't enough National Guard troops on hand in what is one of the worst natural disasters in US history." You say this as if it were incontraveratable truth. It isn't. You somehow think that just because we have a large deployment to Iraq, that we don't have sufficient resources here to handle a disaster. First, the military's job is NOT disaster relief. Secondly, they have sufficient resources to handle the disaster relief and fight the war on terror. Or perhaps you would like to offer your qualifications as a military strategist? You accuse Rush Limbaugh of demogoguarie, I say, it takes one to know one...
CPL
Posted by rdamurphy at 09/01/2005 @ 03:14am
8% of U.S. households have a net worth of $1 billion?
do you mean $1 million?
If that net worth number includes real estate, that number is deceptive, because housing prices cannot continue to rise as they are. Prices can keep rising, but who's going to be able to afford to buy?
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 03:15am
I don't support a private militia guarding the border.
You can't blame the open border issue on leftists. Bush is a strong president who gets what he wants, even in the face of high public disagreement for a lot of his policies.
Blame Bush for not having the cojones to close the borders, not leftists.
What's Bush's excuse? He's been elected twice and has a republican majority in both houses of congress. Not enough power?
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 03:21am
You may think this is crazy but this is the 1st blog I have ever read. I am floored by the linkage that Rush and other have made with your name and this horrible disaster. Take it as a compliment. We all know that one person, save Hitler, Bin Laden, etc, can not be likened to a natural disaster. Their comments just prove that you are a BIG BLIP on their radar and I would think that is somewhere you want to be. Stay in their face and dont back down. While others have condemned you for taking shots at Rush for his drug use, I applaud you. I live in Rush's original market and the man is a menace. On a seperate note, where is our Government? Where is all the power we so proudly display? How about a "shock and awe" approach to helping the people of the South? I guess if we could link Hurricane Katrina to Bin Laden or Iraq and place blame on them, then, well, we may see some serious action. Unfortunetly it would not be action in the South.....Bush would bomb Afganistan and Iraq. I know this sounds absurd and it is ment to. Take a moment to think about it though. I am, however, suprised that we havent mobilized the Military to find and restore all the lost oil wells and drilling rigs. That would fall right in line with this Administrations policy. I guess the alternative is to drive gas prices up as high a possible on a national level to recoup and possibly make even more profit. Thanks for letting me make my 1st blog comment on your blog. Keep up the great work!
Posted by Bill Cameron at 09/01/2005 @ 03:25am
KMG:
I too am here for entertainment purposes. I'm glad to see someone else admit as much, even if I disagree with a lot of you're politics, at least you're honest in that regard.
Direct me to the appropriate link(s) on the census.gov website to back up your claim of 8% of American households having net worths of $1 million.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 03:29am
Bill Cameron:
Excellent first contribution.
I was speaking with a friend at work today and he said virtually the same thing as you just did, but in a slightly different way: "If Bush was an ancient Greek, Poseidon would be wanted 'dead or alive' right now"
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 03:39am
Meanwhile:
Nearly 1000 Shiites, mostly women and children, died in a Baghdad stampede blamed on fear that a suicide bomber was in their midst.
1000 people can die because of a rumor in Iraq, and Bush is trying to convince us things are progressing well.
By the way, two huge disasters that cause America's economy to start tumbling toward - gasp! - recession. Perhaps it's just not that lucky to have Bush in office. Maybe God's trying to send us a message and we're just not listening.
Well, at least the silver lining is that the rich will probably get another large tax cut. That seems to be the solution to economic woes - just return as much of the tax money possible back to the rich, that's a surefire fix to the country's problems.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 03:48am
And the rest of the country, in the form of higher insurance rates, will pay for the reconstruction of the Southeast. God it feels great to be hated by red staters but foot the bill for them to rebuild.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 03:53am
Doughy Pantload is just annoyed because the Superdome Negros did not sprout gills, as he had hoped.
Posted by Jas6 at 09/01/2005 @ 05:08am
None should expect any better from that big fat drug addicted idiot. Like Bush, he fried his brain with substance abuse and the reslts are real obvious. BTW: Great and tastefully done joke about the Oxy tag line. There's nothing wrong with fighting assanine pomposity with truth.
Posted by edward opacki at 09/01/2005 @ 07:20am
Student,
"I'm curious how this will work: when are the fetuses granted these rights? When the sperm hits the egg? If so the mothers will have to check immediatly into a hospital in case of an all too common spontanious abortion? After all, a life is a life and due dilligence demands medical protection, no? Once we have solved this problem we shall have to turn our attention to protecting the other living organisms found in the human body; cancer cells for instance, are living, growing organisms and incidently have just as much brain wave activity.
When the egg implants on the uterus.
Natural and spontaneous abortions are the act of God, just like hurricanes and earthquakes it's God's call on abortions, not man's.
No, no other cells need protection, just living fetuses.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 07:32am
Thejman,
" How could you advocate "playing nice" with a murderous thug."
I only support "playing nice" with brutal dictators all as it's in the economic and other interests of the U.S.
A good example is Chavez, as long as we continue to get oil, keep playing nice. If he stops, then take him out.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 07:35am
Frank,
"Doesn't our Constitution 'allow' the pursuit of happieness?"
Yes it does...
Our constitution also intends states to govern themselves. The constitution intended the fed's to get involved in very few instances.
The citizens of each state are allowed to vote on ballot initiatives to change the state law.
Our citizens voted on said ballot initiative and defined marriage to be a union of one man and one woman.
The ballot initiative passed by an overwhelming 78% of those in Oklahoma who voted on it.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 07:40am
anonymousdog,
"neither side appears very effective at lessening our society's overall promiscuity...the last time there was a serious dent in promiscuous sex among young people it took the 80's AIDS scare to do it."
I don't speak for all sides, I can tell you that I teach my kids abstinence is the only way to ensure safety from diseases such as HIV and aids, as well as the ONLY way to ensure that one doesn't get pregnant before marriage.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 07:49am
anonymousdog,
"Or, perhaps, they choose only those charitable organizations whose missions seems to match the donors' beliefs, that they feel "sure" enough about...a natural-enough seeming constraint, yes?"
Exactly,
That's what I mean when I said in my previous post:
"I like to distribute my wealth when it's MY CHOICE on who it goes too, how much they get, and most importantly, I have some control in knowing that my resources are going to be utilized correctly."
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 07:54am
Urmy,
"Well, here are some statistics:
- Couples marrying today who are between the ages of eighteen and twenty-four have a 75% chance of divorcing.
- The average first-time marriage of the above-described couple will last approximately seven years.
- Those remarrying will have an even greater chance of divorce the second timer around.
- The number of single parent households is one third the number of two parent households.
Approximately 50% of marriages end in divorce. 1 in 2. Yeah - when it fails half the time the institutions is really "sacred".
"
Now for the statistics on my marriage.
I was 20 when I was first married to my first wife.
She was 18.
I am now 36 still married to my first wife.
She is 34.
We have been married 16 years, and don't plan on divorcing anytime soon.
What's your point?
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 08:30am
KMG & URMY:
Like they say, "There's lies, damn lies and then there's statistics" and nowhere is this truer than when examining the economy perhaps. Concepts like GDP which includes production of "stuff", consumption of "stuff" and negative economic activity like cleaning up after making said "stuff" or even burying anyone whom the "stuff" or its waste product kills (like the cigarete industry lets say, or alcohol) count as a "+" value. Is this sensible? Hmmm.
There is real truth on both sides....yes, there are BOTH a significant number of people with relatively high worth (albeit, much of it in not very fluid assests such as the homes they live in) as well as an increasing number of poor or of the marginally economically viable (folks with multiple PT jobs and higher expenditures due to not having benefits....a product of our new "Bushy" economy). Recognize however, this argues in favor of the Leftist perspective that the economy is becoming less "user friendly" as well as widening the divide between the "haves" and the Have nots".
So end of story is to some degree, both of you are right, but viewed in the broader context it is not a good thing by and large.
Posted by leftofcenter at 09/01/2005 @ 09:48am
How did a discussion about a hurricane morph into an argument about birth control, marriage, and Hugo Chavez and, of course, as always, left vs right?
Posted by proudlib at 09/01/2005 @ 10:13am
ALL
As this thread is about "Mother Nature" and the devastation of the recent hurricane, it begs the question. "When is enough, enough?" A majority of the US populace lives close to coastlines (for various reasons: asthetics, water transport, etc.) and yet we expect the insurance industry to bankroll over and over again the rebuilding of massive areas of destruction which we know WILL happen. In the end, insurance carriers throw up their hands and go bankrupt, leaving FEMA (meaning us) with the bill.
Howzabout when we rebuild such things that we....oh I don't know....build them a couple miles inland perhaps? Leave the coasts more to economic aspects like ports and parks and let us folk get the hell out of the way. Then if people choose to live in the "not safe" zone...the risk and onus are squarely upon them.
New Orleans for instance....in the middle of a swamp next to a lake...and existing dangerously close to catastrophe for many years being below sea level (it's sinking gradually being built on mud and all) and lying square in the middle of the hurricane alley. Massive pumps run constantly to keep the water from rising on a GOOD day in the Big Easy. Obviously today is NOT a good day as New Orleans is now a suburb of Lake Ponchatrain.
In addition, many millions are spent each year keeping the river from assuming its natural impulse to change course down the Atchafalya River valley (a MUCH shorter route that is being blocked off by the Corps of Engineers) only because the seaport and oil refineries are there (both substantially damaged as well.) Oh yes....add millions more per year to keep the ever-lengthening channel open.
This is not to detract from the terrible losses of the residents, nor the intolerable circumstance of looting, nor the heroism of the rescuers. My posit is thus: It will take YEARS and billions of dollars to get the city functional again. (If it even CAN be resurrected.)However given the geography and the costs with the constant maintenance of that geography, would it not make more sense to rebuild somewhere else? Somewhere where the billions could be spent on making a safer, more efficient "city of the future?" Surface light rail could be embedded...decentralized power...etc., etc. If we have to rebuild a city...I say let us build a safer and better one, but let's not build a rack of bowling pins at the end of a lane knowing that the ball will roll again one day!
Posted by leftofcenter at 09/01/2005 @ 10:15am
PROUD
Good question (re: the constant gravitation to left vs right)...although at times I like to explore the differentials to understand them...and hopefully, they us.
Posted by leftofcenter at 09/01/2005 @ 10:17am
Proudlib,
"How did a discussion about a hurricane morph into an argument about birth control, marriage, and Hugo Chavez and, of course, as always, left vs. right? "
Because we are America, we have a competitive mentality inbred in us that makes us want to compete.
To answer your question about left vs. right more specifically, well that's simple, because the Right is… right, and the left is …. just confused.
= )
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 10:22am
KMG4:
Call progressives all the names in the book. It doesn't change the fact that progressive initiatives won the 20th Century. These victories are now such a fundemental part of our nation's social fabric that the vast majority have come to accept that they should be here to stay. So spout your rhetoric, but you will not turn back the clock on progress. We may suffer some setbacks for periods - i.e. the Bush Administration, but the tide will surely move in our direction again, as is evident by the fact that more ane more Americans disagree with the direction Bush is taking the country.
Posted by Hman23 at 09/01/2005 @ 10:27am
leftofcenter,
Couldn't agree with you more, it almost sounds like you were making an argument that people should seriously take a look at their choice of where they live, whether close to a risky area that is at risk to be flooded with sea water like New Orleans or not.
Have I interpreted your argument correctly?
Wait a minute..
Risk, and choice, and people…
This is starting to sound like another thread regarding PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
Hey thanks leftofcenter, you have actually used the same reason and logic that I was discussing the other day on people who choose to do drugs, or choose to engage in risky lifestyle behaviors.
And you are absolutely right, choosing to live in New Orleans is certainly a personal lifestyle choice.
That said, God bless them all, we still need to all pitch in and do what we can do to help the people stranded in LA, and MI.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 10:51am
To Fellow Liberals,
Please note in the quote below how the illiberal conservatives attack the messenger when the illiberal conservative's argument is weak and deceitful.
Every time I come back and scan this site I remain amazed at the seeming ignorance or willful ignoring of the facts by some liberals who post here (again with apologies to those liberals who care about facts).
The following quote illustrates how the illiberal conservatives parrot the words of Bush Administration.
The President did activate FEMA prior to Katrina hitting the Gulf States.
If the President were prescient and concerned enough to activate FEMA, then why didn't he alert the military and return from his 'brush-clearing' vacation before public pressure and political opportunism was evident?
He didn't return because he was too busy trying to denigrate the character of Cindy Sheehan, and because he and his administration suffer from obtuseness, except when it comes to taking care of his wealthy friends.
And when Bush does return to 'duty', the first thing he does is to help his wealthy oil compadres by opening the SPR and easing the environmental laws; these action being examples of how he exploits the miseries of average Americans, miseries caused by manmade and natural catastrophes, to benefit his wealthy friends.
Maybe we'll find Iraq's WMD in New Orleans. You do remember the WMD lie that got us into the Iraq war of choice.
Posted by oraibi1952 at 09/01/2005 @ 11:40am
"We should be asking serious questions about why the Iraq War has led the White House to divert funds from an urgent project to upgrade levees and pumping stations in Louisiana, and why there aren't enough National Guard troops on hand in what is one of the worst natural disasters in US history."
Yell it from the mountain top Katrina! The people who raped the federal government need to take some resposibility for severity of the disaster. The people in those areas feel like they have no country, that no one gives a damn. Giving is how the average man can react. A strong and fiscally sound Federal government is how to be proactive. Its how to prevent catatrophies from spiraling way way out of control. Don't let bush and his neocon allies off the hook.
Posted by Salunga at 09/01/2005 @ 11:44am
Great post ORAIBI1952. The truth.
Posted by Salunga at 09/01/2005 @ 11:46am
Todd:
Am all for personal responsibility....I think we just have a difference of opinion what the results of irresponsibility are at times. And yes, a bit of the bent is regarding that.
However, the louder message (I hope) has to do with throwing good money after bad. Why redo what will be likely be destroyed again? I empathize with the residents' attachment to their "home", but in the end, home is where you park your shoes! Build better and smarter and safer (and elsewhere.) Why make the same mistake again and then expect the citizenry to pay for such folly?
Posted by leftofcenter at 09/01/2005 @ 11:47am
OKSG:
Continuing off-topic: Given your definition of when the fetus obtains rights, can you explain why the Christian Right opposes FDA approval of the morning-after pill for OTC use? I just saw that a senior FDA official resigned yesterday because the FDA is refusing to move forward with approval, even though its own scientific panel unanimously advocate approval. Although some liken this to an abortion - it is not even close. Moreover, it seems that the availability of the morning-after pill could conceivably lower the number of abortions. It does not have any effect after the fertilized egg implants in the uterus. Curious where you come out on this.
Posted by Hman23 at 09/01/2005 @ 11:49am
What a strange discussion! As we say in Holland ; Those who do not honor their past, do not know where they go. "Let's forget about New Orleans, and build another city on better levels". I'm so glad we in Holland decided that the choice of those who lived since hundreds of years at 5 to 6.5 meters under sea level had to be protected by the community. The Delta works, started in 1954 and finished in 1998, are today the proud of every dutchman, and no major inundation have occured since 1954. A visit of the old cities of Amsterdam, Delft or Haarlem gives any intelligent European much more happiness than a visit of Disneyland. So please, take care of your past by taking care of New Orleans, because we in Europe just wonder sometimes if you still know where you are going!
Posted by fenauxo at 09/01/2005 @ 12:14pm
PROUDLIB Because what probably is a paid poster is taking control of the board and catching other posters in his sticky web. Don't let a paid poster take control of the board.
Posted by Salunga at 09/01/2005 @ 12:14pm
Fenauxo:
You don't have hurricanes blowing into Holland every summer either.....Look at the geography of New Orleans. [partial view HERE [washingtonpost.com]
The artifically maintained static nature of the river, the aggradation of its base (raising the top level) and a number of factors have been converging towards this point for anumber of years. I merely point out that it would make more sense "economically" to rebuild where this won't happen.
Posted by leftofcenter at 09/01/2005 @ 12:22pm
leftofcenter,
"However, the louder message (I hope) has to do with throwing good money after bad. Why redo what will be likely be destroyed again? I empathize with the residents' attachment to their "home", but in the end, home is where you park your shoes! Build better and smarter and safer (and elsewhere.) Why make the same mistake again and then expect the citizenry to pay for such folly?"
It's scary sometimes..
But I fully agree with you again!
Could it be that a hard core conservative and a hard core lefty are finding common ground on issues?
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 12:26pm
Hman,
"Continuing off-topic: Given your definition of when the fetus obtains rights, can you explain why the Christian Right opposes FDA approval of the morning-after pill for OTC use? "
No I really can't speak for the entire "Christian Right".
If you want my opinion however, I'll give it too you.
Again for the me the question of justifiable and ethical abortion boils down to what were the reason for the pregnancy and the need for the abortion?
If the reason for the pregnancy was a rape or incest etc. then I believe abortion can be justified, so in this case I would support the morning after pill.
However if some woman got pregnant for what ever reason, and then conveniently decides that it would be easier on HER life if the baby was aborted, then I would not be in favor of her using the morning after pill. The baby's life has rights as well, and you can't punish the baby for the mothers "mistake".
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 12:30pm
OKSG:
But the morning-after pill does not abort anything.
Posted by Hman23 at 09/01/2005 @ 12:36pm
OKSG:
Why don't you read up on the science of the morning-after pill. It has NO EFFECT after a fertilized egg implants in the uterus - your definition of when the fetus acquires rights.
Posted by Hman23 at 09/01/2005 @ 12:38pm
On the topic of why people would choose to live in a place that was destined to fall, I say that not everyone exacty "chooses" to live in a place. Many people are forced to move where they have been offered a job. Some were born and raised there and either don't have the means to leave or are unwilling to abandon family. In fact, I happen to live in a place I'd rather not be (In a red-state! On a major fault-line no less) but my husband was offered a fulfilling job. Sure there are people that build multi-million dollar homes on the shore and are shocked when it is left in ruins, but I'd say a majority of these people affected by Hurricane Katrina were no more to blame than the people that merely went to work on 9/11.
And besides, natural disasters occur everywhere across the country. It's just a matter of picking your poison...hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, blizzards, etc. It could happen to any one of us.
Posted by andria at 09/01/2005 @ 12:59pm
At first, I thought Rush giving a last name to Hurricane Katrina was a game the summer cat ladies played in Palm Beech. When I searched your name on the Internet I realized Rush had crossed the line of broadcasting ethics by giving a pet name of an actual citizen of the United States to Hurricane Katrina.
Rush is so Rude and Immature that America should remove Rush from our community radio stations. Actually, the new tag line for Rush should be is :"Where is the Smack". I hope everyone will call their local Rush radio station and complain by telling the radio Sales Manager that "You do not buy Rush."
Please!!! Not Another Day! Cancel Rush
Posted by cancelRush at 09/01/2005 @ 1:22pm
"But the morning-after pill does not abort anything."
yes, but it intentionally stops the process of the fertilized egg from implanting on the uterus. In other words the root cause of the non implanted egg is still the pill.
Again, I'm not saying the pill shouldn't be produced and used.
It's just like many other drugs, the use and application of the drug must be monitored.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 2:03pm
Andria,
"Many people are forced to move where they have been offered a job. "
People have free will.
People aren't "forced" to take a specific job, they certainly aren't "forced" to move anywhere.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 2:05pm
Todd & Andria:
Whether or not people were "forced" to live in N.O. is kinda beside the point. Well, perhaps a side point. Todd, in truth often times people DO move to a job when they are scarce. Sure, they could choose to NOT work and starve or be homeless, but is that a viable choice?
The query is do we consider it (New Orleans) irretrievably lost and start elsewhere (like on land ABOVE sea level)
BTW: Word is that much of Biloxi is effectively gone too....
Posted by leftofcenter at 09/01/2005 @ 2:13pm
So oksportsguy pretends he's really for personal responsiblity, but he's really just against pre-marital sex. To oksportsguy, if a woman has consensual sex, then suspects the next day she may be pregnant (either for not using protection or believes the protection didn't work), she shouldn't be allowed to take the morning after pill to help ensure she doesn't get pregnant.
Even though oksportsguy doesn't believe human life has taken form yet (remember, it takes about a week for a fertilized egg to become implanted in the uterus - and oksportsguy has made clear that he believes human life doesn't begin until the fertilized egg becomes implanted in the uterus) he doesn't believe in allowing women to use the morning after pill.
By that rationale it's clear oksportsguy is also against condoms, birth control pills, diaphragms, etc because they also prevent fertilized eggs from becoming implanted in the uterus - although they accomplish such by not allowing the eggs to become fertilized in the first place.
More anti-sex rhetoric from a righteous christian man who thinks he knows what's best for everyone's sex life. And why does he think he knows what's best? Because he's looking out for the "third party" - the potential fetus.
By the way, oksportsguy, if God can aborts babies, and man is made in God's image, logic follows than humans can abort babies.
Stay logical (oh, that's right, that's not your strong suit)
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 3:18pm
You took the words right out of my mouth URMYGYRO.
Posted by Hman23 at 09/01/2005 @ 3:38pm
Urmygyro, bravo on your 3:18 post. :)
Posted by RG at 09/01/2005 @ 3:45pm
I'm a Canadian who has just started monitoring this blog, in what I hope is not yet another futile attempt to understand the American psyche. The vast majority of Canadians are very concerned about the terrible impact of the hurricane on the people of the south. However, speaking for myself, the empathy does not transfer to the administration, and when I hear it saying "don't send food, money or disaster expertise, send money" my first thought is "I'll consider sending money when you start re-targettng the two billion dollars per week you currently spend on your war adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan on the considerable domestic problems you have. It seems to me that sending money to the American government right now comes dangerously close to subsidizing it's foreign policy, and I just can't do that. As well, this is a government that conducts its affairs in a manner that flaunts international law, conventions and treaties. How can it with any integrity at all look to the rest of the world for assistance? When 9/11 happened, Canada opened its airports, its homes and its hearts to its southern neighbour and what did it get for it? Arrogance and abuse. Punitive and illegal trade policies that have destroyed communities and families. OK..... enough cathharsis - we are heartbroken with the images we see on TV. We will send assistance, we will send money to the Red Cross and we won't transfer our growing anger with your administration to the innocent victims of Katrina. Just remember as the re- building projects move ahead, the American softwood lumber lobby has convinced the Bush administration to impose illegal duties on Canadian lumber that will add billions to the cost of the homes the innocent victims will need. (actions which have been challenged and declared contrary to international trade laws and the North American Free Trade Agreement repeatedly over many years by both the WTO and NAFTA panels).
Posted by Kutkw'unuukws at 09/01/2005 @ 3:45pm
How the heck did I manage to post a transcript of all the posts in this blog?
I didn't mean to do that.
My apologies.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 3:48pm
Urmy,
"By the way, oksportsguy, if God can aborts babies, and man is made in God's image, logic follows than humans can abort babies.
Stay logical (oh, that's right, that's not your strong suit)"
That's the point about faith, it's faith, not logic.
Urmy if you want to wrap your beliefs, values and ethics around worldly "logic" you go right ahead!
But don't expect everyone to do as you do.
My values, beliefs and ethics come from my faith, which is based on… faith not logic.
That will never change.
And to answer your 3:18 post, you are absolutely right I am "against" premarital sex. Just as I am against gays marrying. That's what my faith tells me is right, I couldn't care less whether you think it's logical or not. LOL.
And hence why I voted for the amendment to change the state constitution to define marriage, and why I would vote for a state amendment that would ban abortion except for rape/incest or life of the mother being in danger, and why I would vote for a state amendment that would make adultery illegal, and many other things that come from my faith, that don't probably don't seem "logical" to you at all.
In case you haven't figured this out yet I couldn't care less about whether you feel my values, beliefs and ethics are "logical" or not.
And it's my values, beliefs and ethics that come from my faith not logic that are the primary criteria I use when voting on election day.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 3:56pm
Jesus Todd, lay off the caffeine man.
Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/01/2005 @ 4:26pm
KUTKW'UNUUKWS, Oh, Canada! I feel for us, too. Believe me, there are Americans attending Anti-war rallies and spending time writing letters to government representatives.
Posted by Shane at 09/01/2005 @ 4:30pm
I only support "playing nice" with brutal dictators all as it's in the economic and other interests of the U.S.
A good example is Chavez, as long as we continue to get oil, keep playing nice. If he stops, then take him out.
Todd
Earth to Todd! Earth to Todd! Hugo Chavez is not a brutal dictator, he was democratically elected.
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 09/01/2005 @ 4:35pm
Todd, I need to boil this down, because you never fully address my posts.
What is the specific reason for your opposition to OTC availability of the mroning-after pill? Because it is the equivalent of abortion? OR because you are against pre-marital sex? OR because you are against all forms of contraception.
Posted by Hman23 at 09/01/2005 @ 4:44pm
What I appreciate most in Todd's comments about land use is his willingness to give the free market over to some central authority. Hey! Wait a second--sounds like Communism if you're telling me I can't build my new set of condos with an ocean or gulf view!
Welcome to the Dark Side, Todd.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 09/01/2005 @ 5:13pm
Oksportsguy wrote:
"And to answer your 3:18 post, you are absolutely right I am "against" premarital sex. Just as I am against gays marrying. That's what my faith tells me is right, I couldn't care less whether you think it's logical or not."
People who say they don't care what other people think are usually desperate to convince other people they don't care what other people think.
If it could be policed, I'm sure you'd be against masturbation too, oksportsguy. Do you think it's ok for married couples to have sex wihtout the intention of getting the woman pregnant?
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 5:14pm
"What is the specific reason for your opposition to OTC availability of the mroning-after pill? Because it is the equivalent of abortion? OR because you are against pre-marital sex? OR because you are against all forms of contraception."
I'm for not allowing women who get pregnant for what ever reason, and THEN decide that they just don't want to have a baby, and think that they have the right to destroy a human life, to make their life more convienent.
In other words, a hypothetical situation…
Woman goes out, sleeps with man and get's pregnant unintentionally. Woman finds out she's pregnant and doesn't "want" to be, and therefore has an abortion to "fix" the problem.
Don't condemn the baby's life for the mistake of the mother.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 5:20pm
"Do you think it's ok for married couples to have sex wihtout the intention of getting the woman pregnant? "
Yes.. they are married.
todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 5:21pm
Urmy,
What I find interesting Urmy, is that although you don't value my belief system as logical, and you obviously disagree with it, you spend so much time engaging in conversation with me.
Why is that?
If I'm so ill-informed and my arguments don't make any sense and aren't logical, why waste your time conversing with me?
You must enjoy the entertainment value as well, there could be no other explanation for it. I know you know you aren't going to "change my mind".
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 5:26pm
OKSG:
That is what I meant when I said before you should read up on what the morning-after pill actually does. No offense, but yours is a common misconception by those that have a knee-jerk opposition because they are anti-abortion. For those woman who use the morning-after pill, they are NOT PREGNANT yet. The pill acts to stop the ovary from releasing an egg to even be fertilized, similar to the normal "pill," or, in a minoirty of cases, it possibly stops a fertilized egg from being implanted in the uterus. It does nothing to stop a pregnancy that has already occurred. Thus, it is contraception, not an abortion.
Posted by Hman23 at 09/01/2005 @ 5:35pm
OKSG:
Also, given that it is contraception, the availability of it will allow many who otherwise may have gotten an abortion to not have one. I think if more anti-abortion folks knew what the morning-after pill actually does, they would support it (maybe if only grudgingly) for this reason (assuming they do not take a stand against all contraception).
Posted by Hman23 at 09/01/2005 @ 5:38pm
OKSG - The entertainment value of reading your endless self-satisfied posts wears extremely thin. Why you think you (or your elected representatives) have the right to impose your sanctimonious views on anybody else is beyond me. So it's OK for married couples to have sex without intending a pregnancy. How about oral or anal sex - still OK? How about two married couples having sex (a foursome I guess)? And if your religion's holiest tracts have the sacred godhead riding a turtle into paradise while he eats BLTs, I hope you don't think you should be able to legislate a ban on selling turtles and a requirement that all citizens eat BLTs on Sunday?
Posted by Fishbite at 09/01/2005 @ 5:39pm
oksportsguy:
i enjoy pointing out your logical fallacies and delusions for my and other logical thinker's benefit. I don't presume I will change you, or that you're even changeable, certainly not on an anonymous blog. I've said many times on these threads I'm here for entertainment value. The entertainment is debating someone like you, who even though you believe in a fantasy, still have to adhere to the rules of humanity. I enjoy exposing you to some reality that crashes through the walls you've built up in your fantasy.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/01/2005 @ 5:55pm
OKSG, re: your 7:49 and 7:54am posts: It's nice of you to carefully pick out the sections of my post to which you feel comfortable replying without addressing the substance.
Posted by OKSPORTSGUY 09/01/2005 @ 07:54am "anonymousdog,
"Or, perhaps, they choose only those charitable organizations whose missions seems to match the donors' beliefs, that they feel "sure" enough about...a natural-enough seeming constraint, yes?"
Exactly,
That's what I mean when I said in my previous post: "
Right! The likely scenario I was describing is the problem with relying exclusively on charity and philanthropy to address unsavory problems. If only the causes with which people feel most comfortable get funds, the really ugly issues will be unaddressed. It's just incredible (or untrue) that you missed my point!
And, in r/t your 7:49 post: I'm glad you teach your kids abstinence as the only 100% effective method of preventing disease and pregnancy. That's great! Now, explain how that has anything to do with the debate (about extramarital sex rates on a national scale) we were having. The original question I posed was (smthg like), What are you going to do with all the babies not aborted (or prevented with the morning-after pill) that will be born into homes that can't support them? Why do you advocate making the problem worse (by denying both early-term abortion and new forms of contraception)?
Posted by AnonymousDog at 09/01/2005 @ 6:03pm
OKSG - The entertainment value of reading your endless self-satisfied posts wears extremely thin. Why you think you (or your elected representatives) have the right to impose your sanctimonious views on anybody else is beyond me.
Because there is no law stating that I can't cast votes for candidates based on my religion as criteria.
Get over it, and get used to it.
It's a fact that progressives need to learn, and they refuse to understand that religious people DO and WILL factor their religion into how they vote.
Hence why Oklahomans voted to define marriage as a union of one man and one woman, by 78% of the population.
Fact of life in a nation made up primarily by Christians, that non Christians will have to deal with.
Todd
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 6:21pm
Urmy,
"I enjoy exposing you to some reality that crashes through the walls you've built up in your fantasy."
Then you are failing miserably, nothing you have said has come near changing my view on any issues.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 6:26pm
"What are you going to do with all the babies not aborted (or prevented with the morning-after pill) that will be born into homes that can't support them?"
There are thousands of loving parents wanting to adopt babies because they can't have children on their own.
Some are even paying outrageous sums of money to go to foreign countries to adopt.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 6:29pm
OKSG and URMYGYRO: I agree with both of you about not rebuilding in areas where predictable future catastrophe will occur. Why do we still build on the coastal islands off N. Carolina? Why were so many allowed to rebuild residential developments in the Mississippi flood plain? Money and influence ruled the day on those (and similar) issues. Laws were subverted and funds flowed around legal barriers. FEMA (read, the taxpayers) shouldn't have to keep bailing out the same disasters. If developers want to keep developing in these danger zones, we need to tax the living crap out of them...do the actuarial work and figure out what the REAL costs are in building there (including the aftermath of catastrophe) and make sure the "retained assets" we have to cover disasters is big enough. Make absolutely certain that it the builders who pay, not the taxpayers. If you want that Carolina coast home, the price just went up...way up to what's realistic.
Perhaps this is a good example through which to illustrate why income redistribution is needed. Disaster recovery requires resources that are easier to obtain (and wait for) by the wealthy and influential. Thereby, the "system" works better for them. That's why they need to give some money back to those for which the system doesn't work so well.
That's not to say that we shouldn't create wealth to begin with (as some right-winger tried to point out far above). Redistributing income through government works is actually one of the FEW ways that REAL wealth (i.e., either productivity or tangible community assets) actually IS created. That's how the tangibles that make life worth living actually come about: public parks, roads, utilities, etc. Those things are the REAL wealth of a society. Money is just a relativistic measuring stick for worth and represents one's ability to buy more "stuff" than the other guy.
Meanwhile, giving tax breaks to the wealthy is probably the LEAST efficient way to generate wealth. The rich are more likely to save or invest that money, and, since that investment is likely in futures/stocks, there is no net gain in production/productivity/wealth. Saving are likewise less than 100% returned to the lending market, AND the lending market isn't really dependent upon savings for pools of money to lend (justs ask the Federal Reserve). So, the rich are lousy conduits for turning money into wealth.
However, if you tax the poor less (or give them larger credits) and make sure that the tax code is applied equitably (to ensure that the wealthy actually PAY), those poor people will immediately spend all that money, thereby injecting it into the economy and increasing production -- actually building wealth. This is not a hair-brained theory; I actually first heard it being espoused by Warren Buffet. Now, if you're more successful than Warren (or just think you know more than he about macro economics), go ahead and try to criticize it.
Posted by AnonymousDog at 09/01/2005 @ 6:29pm
OKSG:
Please respond to my 5:35 and 5:38 posts. Unlike others, i am sure I can change your mind on this narrow issue. :)
HMAN
Posted by Hman23 at 09/01/2005 @ 6:38pm
ANONYMOUSDOG, Good points.
Posted by Shane at 09/01/2005 @ 6:46pm
Todd Todd - Of course there's no law saying you can't vote for the sanctimonious prig of your choice. And they can all get together and hug themselves about how they're doing God's work by banning abortion, discriminating against gays, casting out the heathen and whatever. I did think we had a notion of keeping church and state apart. When we start legislating that adultery is punished by stoning maybe even some of the faithful (hah!) will start to get a little anxious.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/01/2005 @ 6:47pm
Anybody know the ratio of how many of the founding fathers were religious?
Posted by Shane at 09/01/2005 @ 6:54pm
Shane - How about 100%? If true, how does that inform our actions today? The Bible provides guidance on treatment of the babies of our enemies (smash them on the rocks) - not sure how we should treat this advice nowadays. The religiosity of prior generations is certainly interesting from a historical perspective. What it should mean to us today - harder to say.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/01/2005 @ 6:57pm
It's not a new idea: Machiavelli said if you try to assassinate the Prince, don't miss.
How did New Orleans vote in the last election?
Posted by Cassandra at 09/01/2005 @ 8:13pm
Fishbite,
" The Bible provides guidance on treatment of the babies of our enemies (smash them on the rocks)"
Forgot that verse...
perhaps if we implemented that in any terrorist breeding ground states that would be the first step towards really stopping terrorism.
You need to get to the root of the problem.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 9:28pm
California Senate approves bill allowing gay marriage [nctimes.com]
Ok well, there you have it, federalism works!
Californians want queers to marry in their state, the bill was approved in the senate 21-15, and more than likely will clear the house and become law.
At least 12 other states don't want gays to marry and have banned gay marriage in their constitution.
Let the states do what they want, and let the homo's move to those states that are more receptive to them!
Then everyone is happy!
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 9:38pm
OKSG - So now it's queers and homos. And I remember an earlier post when you said you love gays. Getting a mite churlish now. Funny how you christian types are so threateded by homosexuality. Kind of makes you wonder, don't it?
By the way, do you really think we can "get to the root of the problem" by killing terrorists (or their children - I'll assume your suggestion on implementing that was some kind of joke)? We'll gave to get up to genocidal levels for that strategy to work. Oh, but since they're all heathen, that probably machts nichts.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/01/2005 @ 10:22pm
sports guy, you are cruel and nasty, is that what your religion teaches? that Christ fellow was known as the prince of peace. theres also a bit about "who is free from sin may cast the first stone, he meant no one. your point about there being thousands of loving parents to be just waiting to adopt, that is naive and ill informed, they don't want black babies. white babies are in short supply so they'll take asian babies, but black? no way. if you were to try to leave your nasty coccoon you might see that there is a world of compassion and need out there, and religious people that don't spout nonsense about smiting others. you may reenter the human race at any time, but it will mean leaving your certainties behind
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/01/2005 @ 10:23pm
Sorry: threateded -> threatened and gave -> have
Really should use that preview function more.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/01/2005 @ 10:24pm
fishbite, for your edification, when I was growing up in american occupied Germany, the expression used by the GIs was "max nix"
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/01/2005 @ 10:39pm
"you may reenter the human race at any time, but it will mean leaving your certainties behind"
No thanks then, I'll stay where I am.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/01/2005 @ 10:41pm
sports, is that the best you got?
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/01/2005 @ 10:47pm
hmmmm
context is everything.
Anyone know the historical context for that "smash their babies on the rocks" stuff?
(I think I know the passage being referred to, but it is hard to say, as it isn't quite a quote)
Posted by jonb at 09/01/2005 @ 11:30pm
Actually, if I recall correctly, the tradition of naming hurricanes began with the name of a US ambassador's wife. Apparently, she caused quite a bit of moving air. I don't recall the details.
So there is historical precedent.
Though KVH hardly seems worthy of a hurricane of this magnitude.
Also, making light of natural disasters is generally very bad form. Rude, Stupid, Boorish, and Childish.
Posted by jonb at 09/01/2005 @ 11:33pm
OKSG:
Thanks for ignoring my questions. I take it you concede.
Posted by Hman23 at 09/01/2005 @ 11:45pm
sport is one of those authors who make wild statements and when challenged reveal their shallowness, by ignoring challenges. if you can't support what you put out there, and defend it with facts, then you're just masturbating. ignorance is not bliss, it's a crashing bore
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 12:00am
July 2005 Harper's Index--Number of America's nine "Founding Fathers" who denied the divinity of Jesus:7
Posted by Shane at 09/02/2005 @ 12:14am
Johannesrolf,
"if you can't support what you put out there, and defend it with facts, then you're just masturbating. ignorance is not bliss, it's a crashing bore"
Here's the facts.
Progressives are mad because conservatives control the Oval office and Congress.
Progressives are mad because regardless of how much kum-ba-ya singing and hand holding they do, and regardless of how many times they throw around words like "tolerance" and "diversity" states still continue to define marriage as a union of 1 man and 1 woman. What are we up to 12 states now?
Regardless of how much Bush bashing you do, regardless of how many sad mothers you have crying over the lost of their young ones, and regardless of how much you complain about innocent civilian deaths in Iraq, the war continues.
Regardless of how many conservatives you belittle for their beliefs and values, regardless of how many "evil" SUV jokes you crack, SUV's continue to sell, the market on them increases and the price of gas continues to skyrocket.
Regardless of how many times you whine about there not being a viable third party alternative to the dems, and how much you complain about the dem's not really being the party of "true" progressives, the farther to the left you alienate yourself from mainstream America, and the more you realize that there will never BE a "progressive" national party because your rational and beliefs are so far apart from what America wants a candidate would never be elected on a National level running on your platform.
Regardless of many times you ask idiotic questions like "Sport is that all you got", conservatives are still making the calls and running the country.
How's that for facts?
LOL
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/02/2005 @ 12:24am
Rush must be smitten with this news, he's gotta be feeling that old "insert foot in mouth" syndrome, again. His old Oxy solution might be sounding pretty good at the moment.
link
Posted by Shane at 09/02/2005 @ 12:29am
Kumbya, my lord, Kumbya
How does a homosexual deny your freedom of life, liberty and your pursuit of happiness? Why deny his/her? It's hard enough for people to find love. When they do find love, why do you get to stand in their way? Don't you respect love? Marriage is the ultimate expression of two peoples love for one another. Are you aftraid that if you legalize gay marriage, the gays we come after you and attack you with kisses? Get over it. Let people express their mutual love for one another. You pious folks ought to read your good book more often, and let your gods lay judgments and condemnations down in your afterlife. Meanwhile, let our constitutional lawyers uncover and defend Mr.Bill's rights.
Posted by Shane at 09/02/2005 @ 12:45am
Now back to New Orleans...Katrina....if you're viewing these posts, I hope you throughly craft an impenetrable argument in your next editorial to impeach Bush!!! Go after his unlawful war, and it's real home consequences during this horrific disaster.
Posted by Shane at 09/02/2005 @ 01:11am
HMAN23:
I'd be glad if you can persuade oksportsguy that his religious beliefs are hypocritical, but you can't. I've destroyed oksportsguy time and time again when it comes to logic. He just doesn't care.
But, if you think you can do it, go ahead. I don't think you can, but I'd enjoy being proven wrong.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/02/2005 @ 01:35am
To all those who were whining that no foreign countries have offered any aid, according to the Boston Globe at least 25 nations have offered the U.S. humanitarian assistance, including of all countries, Venezuela. U.S. officials have sent mixed signals on accepting the aid. In a public statement, Bush said, "I'm not expecting much from foreign nations because we haven't asked for it ... You know we love help, but we're going to take care of our own business." State Department officials later indicated that we would accept aid, however.
Posted by Hman23 at 09/02/2005 @ 07:43am
A little ways back (last night!) there was a question about a paraphrased biblical text that I'd quoted. It was from Psalm 137:
By the rivers of Babylon we sat mourning and weeping when we remembered Zion.
On the poplars of that land we hung up our harps.
There our captors asked us for the words of a song; Our tormentors, for a joyful song: "Sing for us a song of Zion!"
But how could we sing a song of the LORD in a foreign land?
If I forget you, Jerusalem, may my right hand wither.
May my tongue stick to my palate if I do not remember you, If I do not exalt Jerusalem beyond all my delights.
Remember, LORD, against Edom that day at Jerusalem. They said: "Level it, level it down to its foundations!"
Fair Babylon, you destroyer, happy those who pay you back the evil you have done us!
Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/02/2005 @ 08:08am
OKSG - I'd rather hang on to some semblance of principles than gloat over the fact that my guys are in power. Is it a good thing that the war goes on? A good thing that SUVs sell so well? A good thing that hate and fear are denying gays fundamental rights? You've made a deal with the devil, Todd, and think you're on the side of the angels.
Are you suggesting that because conservatives are still running the country, despite all the progessives' whining, that we should give up and join the pious majority? Or is it the typical bully's chant, crowing over their position of power? Beware, Todd - I heard somewhere that pride goeth before a fall (more Psalms).
Posted by Fishbite at 09/02/2005 @ 08:20am
Fishbite,
"Are you suggesting that because conservatives are still running the country, despite all the progessives' whining, that we should give up and join the pious majority?"
Nope... It's simply called a "reality check"
Here is the reality of your situation, whether you like it or not.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/02/2005 @ 08:36am
OKSG - I understand the reality only too well without any help from you. And I don't like it. So what's your point.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/02/2005 @ 08:41am
sporty, none of those are facts, they are opinions. but enough with this toad.
can we talk about what's going on in New Orleans. can we talk about shame. I am again ashamed to be an american. I am ashamed that the suffereing and devastation in New Orleans are mostly borne by black poor people.
I am ashamed that the authorities "evacuated" a city without making provisions for those who do not have cars and money. I am ashamed of federal officials who attempt to whitewash their miserable failure by blaming the victims by claiming these people chose not to evacuate.
I am ashamed of the socalled president, who cannot help smirking, as he returns to work two days too late, I am ashamed of the secretary of state who is shoe shopping and broadway show watching while New Orleans burns.
I am ashamed that the National Guard, whose job it is to help in these calamities is in Iraq fighting an illegal war. and I am ashamed of armchair ideologues who are prattling their GOP talking points while the country splits apart.these are stains on the national fabric of society which will not soon go away. and I am ashamed of the southern racism that remains firmly entrenched. I am ashamed that no doubt the recovery money sent by congress will go the casino owners and the rich with their beachfront homes.
I am ashamed of the voters here in america who had no problem with Bush when he emptied the treasury with tax cuts for the super rich, plunges the country in a war against a country which did NOT attack us, but when the price of gas rises are discovering their disapproval of this so called president. Moral majority indeed.
there are in this darkness, many americans I can be proud of, those that donate money to the red cross, those who open their homes and their hearts to the unfortunate ones. I am proud also of those countries that have been offering help, help that our government has in explicably refused. why?
the lie of a superior america has forever been washed away by the flood waters
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 08:46am
ponder this: the victims of the bridge stampede in Baghdad are buried while the dead in New Orleans are floating in the river and lie by the side of the road. can we bury american exceptionalism once and for all?
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 09:04am
let's look over this thread and see who got off topic?
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 09:05am
I just came across this ridiculous web site while seeking news about Katrina [the hurricane- -not a person] and I'm mortified by comments from liberals and conservatives alike. This isn't about religon or politics. This isn't anyone's fault. A hurricane is a natural disaster, PERIOD. You people are nuts to make it about anything more than that. I'm logging off now and I'll never return to this lunatic website. Not one of you could form an intelligent thought if your life depended on it. Adios, fools.
Posted by outofhere at 09/02/2005 @ 09:15am
outofhere, you will be missed, sniff
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 09:22am
LOL
Outofhere says it's not about "religion or politics". So where does he go to seek information about a hurricane? A political website.
LOL
Posted by urmygyro at 09/02/2005 @ 09:40am
Nevermind the fact that Outofhere took the time to obtain a user name to check out the blog section of the website.
LOL
Posted by urmygyro at 09/02/2005 @ 09:43am
"OKSG - I understand the reality only too well without any help from you. And I don't like it. So what's your point."
The point is...
Progressives seem to think that they are going to somehow use logic to change peoples beliefs, values, and norms and once you think you accomplish this, the world will all be peaceful and everyone will be voting for progressives, wars will end, peace will be on the earth, and gas will go back to $.75/gallon.
You guys need to realize that you aren't going to change the view of those that oppose you and learn to live with the difference in peoples beliefs and values.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/02/2005 @ 09:53am
Watching and listening to you at the moment on C-SPAN and must say that you are such a breath of fresh air, not only for your intelligence and thoughtfulness, but for your calm. There is so much emotional reaction taking place across the media and by its audience, I'm not sure anyone has a clear rational view of this disaster at this time. Rush Limbaugh is the extreme antithesis of fresh air or lateral thinking in my opinion. I'm glad to have found you today. Finally, a voice that resonates with me in terms of articulating just how complex these issues are... and how the much-needed ideas and imagination expected from our leaders (generally speaking) is disgracefully absent. I believe that the core cause of so much anger centers mostly around many of our leaders' ignorant superstition over truth. The real gravity of this human disaster took far too long for the local and national government to come to terms with - because (in my opinion) there is a lack of leadership now, too many people half-asleep at the wheel. Thank you Katrina. ~David
Posted by DJohnson at 09/02/2005 @ 10:01am
Todd:
do I have to point out the irony of "Progressives seem to think that they are going to somehow use logic to change peoples beliefs, values, and norms " in that wouldn't approaching people through logic be the logical thing to do?
It begs the comment that the people on the right must therefore operate on an illogical basis.
Posted by leftofcenter at 09/02/2005 @ 10:03am
banish logic, banish thoughtful expression, banish science, banish facts, that is sportsguys world, banish him
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 10:10am
Leftofcenter,
"do I have to point out the irony of "Progressives seem to think that they are going to somehow use logic to change peoples beliefs, values, and norms " in that wouldn't approaching people through logic be the logical thing to do? "
You can approach people through logic if you want, I'm not suggesting that you not. I am suggesting that core values that are bred into and instilled into people from the culture, family environment, and religion that they are brought up in are not going to be easily changed, if at all, simply by applying logic.
Most people who's values are in contrast with logic will continue to chose their innate core values over logic everyday. That is the point I am trying to get across, perhaps I'm not communicating it very well.
How many times LofC have you tried make logical arguments in the face of my beliefs? And how many times have I said, ya your logic is right, my belief system must be wrong, I will abandon my faith and believe what you say now?
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/02/2005 @ 10:26am
oksportsguy reminds me of Ned Flanders from the simpsons.
Ned: "Science is like the friend who ruins the movie by telling you the ending before you've seen it. Well, there's some these we don't want to know. Important things."
Posted by urmygyro at 09/02/2005 @ 10:29am
Katrina:Watched you on c-span this morning and sent my brainstorm in to The Nation. You're good! Musky John
Posted by muskyjohn at 09/02/2005 @ 10:32am
Here's how oksportsguy and any chrisitan would express his beliefs (let's pretend today is Good Friday):
"Today is Good Friday, observed by Christians worldwide as a day that commemorates the crucifixon of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, whose death redeemed the sins of mankind"
Without bias, here's how it should be written:
"Today is Good Friday, observed worldwide by Jesus buffs as the day on which the popular, bearded cultural figure, sometimes referred to as The Messiah, was allegedly crucified and - according to legend - died for mankind's so-called sins. Today kicks off a 'holy' weekend that culminates on Easter Sunday, when, it is widely believed, this dead 'savior' - who also, by the way, claimed to be the son of a sky-dwelling, invisible being known as God - mysteriously 'rose from the dead.' According to the legend, by volunteering to be killed and actually going through with it, Jesus saved every person who has ever lived - and every person who ever will live - from an eternity of suffering in a fiery region popularly known as hell, providing - so the story goes - that the person to be 'saved' firmly believes this rather fanciful tale.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/02/2005 @ 10:47am
Urmy,
""Today is Good Friday, observed worldwide by Jesus buffs as the day on which the popular, bearded cultural figure, sometimes referred to as The Messiah, was allegedly crucified and - according to legend - died for mankind's so-called sins. Today kicks off a 'holy' weekend that culminates on Easter Sunday, when, it is widely believed, this dead 'savior' - who also, by the way, claimed to be the son of a sky-dwelling, invisible being known as God - mysteriously 'rose from the dead.' According to the legend, by volunteering to be killed and actually going through with it, Jesus saved every person who has ever lived - and every person who ever will live - from an eternity of suffering in a fiery region popularly known as hell, providing - so the story goes - that the person to be 'saved' firmly believes this rather fanciful tale."
You have got it!
Now the ball is in your court, do you accept the sacrifice and are thus saved or reject the sacrifice?
Don't answer out loud, just something to think about = )
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/02/2005 @ 10:50am
stop this obnoxious religious proselytizing, this ain't no church, sporty is a nasty fuck, no matter how much he cloaks himself in his supposed religious beliefs.
progressives listen up, you CAN do something to counter the reactionary troglodites, send a check to the red cross to help the victims in New Orleans, ok sporty you too, and get thee to Washington on September 24th to protest for peace and against this warmongering adminstration. everything else is just rhetoric
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 10:57am
"ok sporty you too"
Already did, gave online to the Red Cross yesterday.
todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/02/2005 @ 11:02am
Johannesrolf,
"stop this obnoxious religious proselytizing, this ain't no church, sporty is a nasty fuck, no matter how much he cloaks himself in his supposed religious beliefs."
That's why the invented the "ignore this person" button bro.
If you are so offended simply ignore my posts, I can assure you it won't offend me one iota = )
Love ya!
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/02/2005 @ 11:04am
No, I do not accept the fanciful tale.
It's your right to live the dream (literally), but I'm not buying it. The great thing is you'll never be able to prove you're right. Once you're dead, you're dead. Simple.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/02/2005 @ 11:05am
please strike the invective from my last post, I was out of bounds there, my apologies
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 11:10am
OKSG,
Your belief system and core values prevail over logic - congratulations! You must be so proud. That's what we need: more belief and less logic. Wait, that's how this administration already works. Let's all sit around believing that we're making our country safer, let's get a love-fest going about our government because we believe all is going so well.
And you progressives/liberals - stop with all that logic already! So tiresome reading the endless progression of reasoned arguments. In the immortal words of Parappa the Rappa, you just gotta believe!
Posted by Fishbite at 09/02/2005 @ 11:12am
LOL
Fishbite, you're right, down with logic!
In that vein, I'm here to announce to oksportsguy that I'm Jesus. I'm Jesus, and I'm hanging out at thenation 'cause it's the place to be.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/02/2005 @ 11:18am
Hey Fish,
Am I still your favorite Republican?
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/02/2005 @ 11:19am
can we get back to the disaster in New Orleans?
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 11:23am
johannesrolf
what are you going to curse at us some more if we don't snap to at your command?
oksportsguy:
does the fact that there's no proof that you will exist after death bother you at all? I'm not talking about Jesus and scriputures and all that, what I'm talking about is have you ever pondered that perhaps there is no life after death? Do you ever ponder those existential issues?
Posted by urmygyro at 09/02/2005 @ 11:29am
KVH, Just a comment about your much-appreciated appearance on C-SPAN's Washington Journal: I wish that you had replied, shall we say, a bit more pointedly to a couple of the callers late in the show. The caller from Washington, D.C. was so typical of the wacko right, which is so adept at projecting its own sentiments on so-called "limousine liberals". What they don't realize, or more likely, hope those who hear them don't realize, is that calling attention to problems such as racial division does not mean advocating for such problems.
The caller from Florida late in your segment of the show was nothing more than a racist asshole. Since New Orleans is supposedly 67% Black, and the law enforcement institutions are mostly Black (statistics for which I would certainly not take her word), then it's up to them to take care of themselves? And Brian Lamb, the right-wing tool that he is, just let her spout on. Anyway, I was happy to see you on that show, and figured that the level of discussion to which you would be subjected with Lamb as host would probably not be too high. You handled it with aplomb, but I just wish you'd been a little more confrontational with some of the righty blowhards out there. I look forward to your next appearance on AAR's Majority Report.
Posted by Leftfielder at 09/02/2005 @ 11:52am
Todd,
My favorite Republican? now let's not get carried away. You've got a lot of competition out there.
I'm finally seeing some video of troops driving around in N.O. so maybe, finally, some kind of order will emerge. Just in time for everyone's favorite Republican to get some photo ops, mouth a combination of twinkling compassion and indignation (at everyone else) and then get the hell out of Dodge.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/02/2005 @ 11:58am
you may take your religious discussion elsewhere. religion is a matter of faith, in matters of faith rational discussion fails, as it does in matters of taste, de gustibus non disputandum. allow the rest of us to discuss the subject of the thread, which is the hurricane. to the gent wondering whether or how many of the founding fathers were religious. It's irrelevant, religion is a personal matter. read the constitution, a secular document for a secular world. render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, and render unto god that which is god's. I am changing the context of that quote a little but I think it is apt.
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 12:02pm
Since this topic has totally strayed to OKSG's religious convictions, why don't you give me some resolution to my earlier points (5:35 and 5:38 yesterday) regarding the morning-after pill, Todd? Or are you conceding my point and joining the dark side?
Posted by Hman23 at 09/02/2005 @ 12:03pm
or to put it another way, take your religion a shove it up your keista
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 12:04pm
HMAN:
I told you, oksportsguy stops short when it comes to points that really would make him question his beliefs. oksportsguy and I have been having ongoing dialogue for about a month on different threads. I'd be willing to bet if I went back through those threads there'd literally be a dozen or so unanswered questions from me to him regarding religion. He answers what's convenient for him to answer (what he believes doesn't threaten his comfort zone) and then ignores the rest.
Good luck though, if you can crack him you win detective of the year.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/02/2005 @ 12:07pm
What I don't understand is how ANYONE can take anything the Shrubbites say seriously. Out here in WI. we have a saying:"When do you know a NEOCON is lying?....When thier mouths are open!!!" Look,the current breed of Political Prostitute is one that transends party,race,creed.It is based purely on GREED. As Molly Ivins says so frequently;Check the record!!!(Also,follow the money!!!) Makes me wonder:why is jerkicide a felony???
Posted by shadowolf at 09/02/2005 @ 12:17pm
9/2/02 From: Scott "Scooter" McClellan To: GWB Re: Need to Stress the "Real" Victims of Katrina: This Administration
GW: Regarding our talking points, forgive me for restating the obvious; but Karl and I are of one mind that the "real" victims of this hurricane are being lost in all the fear mongering and finger pointing by the Marxist Cabal over at CNN: the Administration. Condie had to come home early from her play; Mike Brown had to feed the media bears even though FEMA only found out about the folks at the Super Dome on Wednesday; and that crook Mr. Jack Cafferty is suggesting there is a class and racial dynamic to all this fuss. The fact is that a lot of us are being put out and on the spot by these self-annointed media "experts." Our recommendation:
1) Stress that there is no "crisis" but only a lack of national confidence that is being stoked by Carter-esque losers; 2) Stress that sleeping out-doors is good and healthy for members of our population who are accustomed to sleeping in tenement buildings; 3) Declare New Orleans a "Floating Economic Opportunity Zone," and send the buses straight back from Houston to let off the passengers so that they can experience the wonders of a "Flotilla of Friedman-esque Self-Improvement Exercises;" 4) Stress that the real losers in all this are poor white stock-holders in Atherton, CA; Lake Forest, IL, and Lincoln, MA, who are now forced to revalue their portfolios in light of the ups and downs of the short commodity markets; 5) Suggest that drinking the fetid pools of water improves the immune system in the event of a "real" biological attack.
More at:
Link: Bush Administration Approved Link: [gwbushdiary.blogspot.com]
http://www.gwbushdiary.blogspot.com/
Posted by Kihnley at 09/02/2005 @ 12:18pm
shadowolf:
I like the "jerkicide".
This administration can aptly be named a "kleptocracy".
Posted by urmygyro at 09/02/2005 @ 12:19pm
"does the fact that there's no proof that you will exist after death bother you at all? I'm not talking about Jesus and scriputures and all that, what I'm talking about is have you ever pondered that perhaps there is no life after death? Do you ever ponder those existential issues?"
No, I am secure in my Faith, that there is a real Heaven and Hell, and my life does not end at the end of my physical existence on this earth.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/02/2005 @ 1:09pm
"Since this topic has totally strayed to OKSG's religious convictions, why don't you give me some resolution to my earlier points (5:35 and 5:38 yesterday) regarding the morning-after pill, Todd? Or are you conceding my point and joining the dark side?"
I'm still pondering it, again I don't have a problem with the morning after for use after a pregnancy/rape.
And I agree with you that you are right on the fact that it just keeps the egg from implanting on the uterus.
Now I'm still struggling with the issue that man is still playing God in the situation in terms of changing the natural progression of the way the fertilized egg would normally implant on the uterus and grow.
Although I do support married people having sex without the intention of pregnancy..
So..
Again, still trying to figure out how I feel on that issue.
I'll get back to you.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/02/2005 @ 1:13pm
hey sporty, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, oh please enlighten us, but spare us your crisis of conscience
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 1:30pm
this thread did not stray it was yanked by some
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 1:31pm
Mary,
"The people bashing OKSG have chosen "Human Reason" as their god. And then bitch at him for injecting religion into the discussion."
Good insight, I was wondering if anyone was ever going to address the point I was making that values, beliefs and ethics don't come from one's logic, they come from one's faith in what ever system they have been raised in.
No, they just will continue to bash me probably = )
But that's ok, I'm used too it.
Todd
Posted by Oksportsguy at 09/02/2005 @ 2:24pm
OKSG:
You're getting there. As to playing God with the natural progression of things, the morning-after pill is basically an increased dosage of the common birth control pill. In most cases it stops an ovary from releasing an egg (as with the pill). There are plenty of contraceptives that alter the otherwise natural progression of things. So unless you are against all forms of contraception, how far does your slope on this go? IUD, condoms, vasectomy?
I understand to some extent what you are pondering. On top of this, I am wondering whether or not this position is something you are willing to trade-off on, given the logic that more use of this (as with any contraceptive) could realistically be expected to DECREASE the number of abortions.
Posted by Hman23 at 09/02/2005 @ 2:26pm
Lack of reason created religion.
Posted by Shane at 09/02/2005 @ 2:27pm
For KMG4: There are plenty of countries who are offering us their support. As for China, well, I think China only worries about helping China.
From the Washington Post: "Mostly, sympathy abounds. Russia offered cargo planes and rescue helicopters. Cuba's national assembly observed a minute of silence in "sorrow and solidarity." The president of Sri Lanka, recalling the spontaneous U.S. assistance in response to the tsunami nine months ago, sent condolences. So did President Hu Jintao of China. Even the leaders of Old Europe are offering their own emergency oil supplies."
Also: Germany Offers Oil Reserves, Supplies to US [dw-world.de]
The reason people criticized the US in the tsunami aftermath was because Bush initially offered a pathetic sum when you consider how rich we are in comparison to most of the rest of the world. Also, Bush takes his sweet time in responding to catastrophic events, even when they happen in his own country. I don't think it is anti-American to want the leaders of your country to show more compassion and less levity.
Posted by KMR at 09/02/2005 @ 2:37pm
oh please. don't you people have any religious blogs to pollute with your god jive. look at the post and the title, it's about the disaster in New Orleans. I don't give a bleep about changing your beliefs, values and norms.
I write in order to discuss, I expect other correspondents to use reason and facts to make their case. this is how discussion and argument have been carried on for a few thousand years, check Socrates and the socratic method. you thrive on blurring distinctions, you have no facts at your disposal because you are illinformed, you spout dogma,
I don't need no god. I am speaking as someone who was educated by Jesuits, who has read the bible numerous times, a pretty good read and yes one of the foundations of world literature, along with the Koran, the Baghvatgita, and many others. why does everything have to be about god?
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 2:38pm
KMG4 Strange you mention Sri Lanka, they have already said they will be sending aid.
Posted by Friscodog at 09/02/2005 @ 2:45pm
KMR:
Don't expect a response from KMG4. His previous whining about a lack of foreign aid offers is obviously baseless. Others tried to make the same argument. As of this morning, 25 nations have offered support, including even Venezuela. On to the next topic . . .
Posted by Hman23 at 09/02/2005 @ 2:48pm
mary take your god and shove it
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 2:52pm
JOHANNESROLF:
God is invoked because it is the great crutch of the religious right. Once cornered, they can fall back on the basis of their faith, because nobody can conclusively disprove it.
Posted by Hman23 at 09/02/2005 @ 2:52pm
how much money has been spent on homeland security? the tragedy in New Orleans does not bode well for the country's preparedness for a terrorist attack. remember the hurricane gave us plenty of warning, an attack is unlikely to do the same.
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 2:54pm
Katrina!
Don't worry about Rush Limbaugh. His followers do not read your stuff anyway. They might not even be able to read.
Posted by Jerry Bitts at 09/02/2005 @ 3:06pm
thank you hman23, I could not have put it better myself.
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 3:26pm
I'm curious. Can someone give me an estimate on how many here an atheist or agnostic.
Please.
Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/02/2005 @ 3:50pm
"are"
Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/02/2005 @ 3:51pm
no way, don't dignify these religious loons with a response. religion is a private matter, don't let the american taleban take over the discussion
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 3:58pm
None of your business USAPRIDE. Unlike others, I do not wear my spirituality on my sleeve.
Posted by Hman23 at 09/02/2005 @ 4:04pm
JOHNANNESROLF: C'mon now. Time to step up to the plate. Where do you stand? Admit to all of us that you believe in no God or supreme being.
After all, it's all about you, right?
Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/02/2005 @ 4:06pm
usapride is on a fishing expedition; he wants to be able to confirm to himself that he's arguing with a bunch of "godless heathens" so he can dehumanize us and make us irrelevant in his mind.
I, for one, and godless.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/02/2005 @ 4:09pm
C'mon guys - step up. Where do ya'll stand.
Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/02/2005 @ 4:13pm
I step up to the plate when I'm playing baseball, and when it's time for dinner, pridebaby. you people have no respect for the rules of this discussion. take your religion and shove it. you have nothing to add to this discussion and you create an impenetrable fog to cover your ignorance, and you can all go fuck yourself. if you are not bound by the rules I am not either, godcreeps
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 4:15pm
Where do you stand usapride?
Posted by urmygyro at 09/02/2005 @ 4:16pm
USAPRIDE: We do not live in a theocracy. If you want that, I suggest Iraq, we have created a nice one there.
Posted by Hman23 at 09/02/2005 @ 4:20pm
There must be another site where folks can take this religious stuff - and I pray to the almighty God that they take it there soon.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/02/2005 @ 4:22pm
I'll take a survey too, how many are in favor of pushing the ignore button on these ignorant god types? I am one in favor
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 4:29pm
Geez, I've really been resisting the ignore button. I wonder if they could add a feature so you could see who's ignoring you? Reminds me of a Bertolt Brecht poem in which an author is upset because his books are not being burned.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/02/2005 @ 4:38pm
Dear Mrs. Vandel Heuvel:
Greetings. I don't usaully post my thoughts on blogs. But I had to, especially after hearing you speak on C-SPAN Radio this morning. I am a true moderate and was surprise to hear in your opening remarks that you were yourself going to portray this issue in such light. However you ended with an attack on Bush everytime. To begin, I am still wonerding, where is the Governor of Lousiana or the Mayor of New Orleans? We do live in a state of Federalism, still? They hold primary responsibility, yet I never heard you take them to task. I can still remember how the Mayor of New York took charge of his city after 9/11. He didn't wait for the federal government. In that light Gov. Jeb Bush was out in force after his state suffered a hurricane assualt last year. The Mayor and Governor of the affected city and state should take the lead, and not the President. If the President should be in charge, then why do we need mayors and governors? The federal government is there to assist not usurp the power of the state. However, when you have a vast portion of society not educated in the basic fundamentals of their own government, one gets a lot of ill informed rambling? Further, this business of the National Guard. The sum total of US forces is over 1,000,000. We only have about 130,000 in Iraq. You do the math. Think about this, after the Tsunami, the US sent an entire Navy fleet (a fleet has many ships, marines, sailors, planes, helicopters, etc) to the affected areas. Even the UN had to acknowledge that without US support the aid effort would have been doomed. The US accompllished this while fighting a war in Iraq. And...before readers start to compare this (tsunami) response to the present one, bare in mind that the fleet was already based in the Pacific. I admire how you, a well education women, used one source to support your claim that not enough funds were available for research studies, etc. Also, from your statement I can assume that you are not well versed in the sciences. Money does not solve this problem, research, anylsis, etc..solves the problem. Throwing more money at an engineer will not make him or her smarter. Only time, studies, test models, etc..will. You claimed that China is still funding US debt. You must not have read "The Economist", had you, you would have realized that the Bush administration has forced China to unpeg her currencies from the US dollar. You also claimed that Bush is playing footsie with China, well, you must have missed Def. Sec. Rumsfield speech on China to the recent Asian summit. You must also have forgotten that Pres. Clinton allowed the sale of sensitive satallite information to China. You praised Mrs. Cindy Sheehan (and I sympathize with her loss), then you forget to mention the other mothers who don't share her view, I guess they don't count. You claim that the world hates the US, yet millions are still flocking to our shores and becoming citizens. Why aren't they going to Europe? I myself, grew up in Europe during the 70s and 80s and attended various international schools. People were jealous of the US then, they still are. The liberal elite in this country are only concerned with Europe's feeling towards the US,(this in my view is an example of the silent racism that exists). Further, I myself am a naturalized citizen of the US and I am very proud of my country. You also said that Bush should have landed instead of flying over the affected areas. Where was he supposed to land. Air Force One is not a boatplane. The last time, (after 9/11), eveyone complained that Bush didn't get to the White House fast enough. Now he did, I guess that this was not enough either. You mentioned genocide as a reality in warfare and security, however, one the worst genocides to date happened under the watchful eye of UN Sec. General Anan, President Clinton, the EU, OAU etc. I am writing about Rwanda. In closing I was not amused that you misrepresented yourself this morning. Maybe your judgement was affected by your anger at Mr. Limbaugh. I do not know. But you do owe the listening public an obligation to be balanced, if not then you are just a propagandist and admit this on the air. Now, we all know that San Fransico, Los Angeles and Seattle are in grave danger from mother nature. Should something happen there, will you blame Bush as well for the fallout?
Regards, Jacien PS: Please feel free to respond.
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 4:39pm
By "ignoring you" in my last post, I meant "ignoring me" or something, not that I'm interested in who's ignoring JOHANNESROLF
Posted by Fishbite at 09/02/2005 @ 4:39pm
Jack031 - Please define "true moderate".
Posted by Fishbite at 09/02/2005 @ 4:43pm
this is unbelievable, these people are ranting on about religion, are you reading the news, New Orleans is a living hell, the federals are reassuring everyone, while on the scene is chaos, they haven't seen any help, the so called pres is prattling on, the police are afraid to go out except in heavily armed convoys, these people have been abandoned, is this america?
read the news america and weep, if every man, woman and child were weeping it would not be enough tears. the veneer of civilization is very thin and in New Orleans it is gone.
don't forget america, remember this, remember, you are witnessing this, and be ashamed to your core
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 4:47pm
Fishbite:
By "true moderate" and mean a "liberal" in the European sense of the word, not the American. Along the lines of Adam Smith laissez-faire.
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 4:51pm
JACK031:
You raise a lot of points, but I will only address the ones directed at the governor and mayor. You draw a comparison to 9/11 and the hurricanes in Florida and how Gulliani and Jeb Bush reacted. Why I am not completely absolving the mayor of N.O. and governor of Louisiana, I think Katrina created a much different situation than the examples you list. Looking at the city level, as bad as 9/11 was, it was confined to a small part of Manhattan. Katrina basically wiped out the entire city of N.O. As such, I do not see how we could have expected the mayor to do much. For one, his manpower lived there; their homes and family were probably of personal concern. It is certainly concievable that many were worried more about personal issues at the early stages than being ready or even willing to react quickly. Plus, any infrastcuture, hardware, and communications the mayor could have used were most likely compromised because of the widespread damage. In contrast, Guilliani had more to work with, so it is not surprising that he was more effective.
As for the state level, I think your points are more valid becasue Katrina did not wipe away the entire state. I think, however, more people focus on the federal government's reaction, as opposed to state/local, because this storm was so large in scope and effect, and it hit major urban centers. The realities of what the hurricane caused was simply beyond anything one state is expected to be able to handle on its own. This was not a storm that merely leveled some hotels and beach houses. It stranded thousands of people across the entire city. I think many people rightly assume that this is the sort of situation where reliance is entusted with the federal authorities because of their larger resources. Thus, they are going to take the lion's share of any criticism.
Posted by Hman23 at 09/02/2005 @ 5:05pm
JOHANNESROLF: You need therapy.
URMYGRO: I haven't been to church on Sunday since I was a kid and had to wear my "click shoes". I believe in God. I believe in a higher power. I don't put myself above this. I don't have that big of an ego. Do you?
Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/02/2005 @ 5:06pm
Jack you are blind and deaf, the mayor of New Orleans has nothing at his disposal, he has 300 cops. washington has the entire homeland security, the army and the nAvy. in new york, and I am a new yorker, the devastation was confined to a few city blocks, and great as the loss of life was, it was over in a few hours. here tens and hundreds of thousands are affected, the death total may outpace that of 9/11,
there was plenty of warning, people are still dying, while we fiddle with moderate and liberal, have you no shame, are you even human, bear witness america. New orleans may be rebuilt in time, but nothing will rebuild the idea of america, the shining city on a hill, we are sinking as a nation, each human dying in New orleans takes with him or her a piece of america, this is worse than Baghdad,
you must bear witness, you must draw the consequences from the actions of our socalled leaders. where are the"big government is so bad" people now? I am waiting, religious loons, for your response to the visions of this hell
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 5:07pm
prideboy, who the hell cares about your religion, shame on you
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 5:09pm
Why do you consider anyone who doesn't believe in God to be automatically arrogant?
I know I can come off as arrogant sometimes. But consider someone who simply says "I respect your belief in God, but I don't believe in God": would you consider them "above it all" because of that belief?
Posted by urmygyro at 09/02/2005 @ 5:26pm
Dear Johannesrolf:
Please inform yourself about Posse Comitatus, before you start advocating that the Federal Government start deploying federal troops all over the place. Further, we are not sinking as a nation, I suggest that you go overseas for a long while and see what a sinking nation is.
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 5:58pm
Dear HMAN23:
Your points are well taken indeed. And I do agree with you somewhat. I think that the US society has gotten used to seeing complex issues resolved in one-hour sitcoms. Perpective is lost. What Louisana is missing is a central command structure, which is the duty of the Governor, not the President of the United States. FEMA assists the structure that the State has in-place. If the President has to do the Governor's job, then of what use is the Governor. I understand that the scale was unanticipated. As such, it WILL take a couple of days to asses the situation. Plus now we have to deal with an urban warfare situation. How in the world were planners supposed to imagine that urban warfare would rise out of this situation? What would happen if National Guard troops start shooting Americans. What would people say then? Even though it has taken about four days, this is a relative short period of time, (I do not which to sound insentative and I do respect the dead).
Jacien
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 6:10pm
Dear HMAN23:
What seems to be missing in this debate is logic. All that I have seen thus far is passion. What do you think?
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 6:23pm
jacko, I did not advocate the use of federal troops, I just pointed out the contrast of where the power lies.
I do however lament the fact that a third of the National Guard troops are in Iraq, and that the National guard we do have were not deployed sooner.
I do not apologize for passion, the poor helpless ones waiting for rescue are passionate, while those whose job it is to provide that rescue are passionless, trying to cover their behind.
I have lived in other countries and I consider myself well informed. do the scenes of New Orleans seem to you american? so what was your point here? as far as troops shooting americans, it wouldn't be the first time. when it came to satisfying the parents of Terry Schiavo and pandering to the right wing religious loons, the president and congress came back in one day. the biggest national disaster, and it takes days for them to rouse themselves. shameful
.no one saw the looting and violence coming? please, we've has race riots, blackouts and there was plenty of violence. when the underclass, and that is what we are talking about, feel abandoned by society, in this case rightly so, you can expect violence. there is plenty of blame to go around but it does not stop before the president. you say it will take a couple of days to assess the situation, where have you been, it has been four days. you are apologizing for failure. we could have used some shock and awe the first day or the second. I am glad to have some substantative discussion instead of whoozy religious twaddle, so I thank you for that.
you need to do more than respect the dead, you must respect the living, those that are suffering and who may be dead if help does not reach them. some righteous anger is also in order.
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 7:53pm
Dear Johannesrolf:
You are not grasping what I am saying. America is a part of the world. These scenes should not surprise you. The problem in New Orleans stem from social breakdown black/white relations that have been years in the making. What we see on TV is just a manifestation. Today I heard that the Mayor of New Orleans, (who is an African-American), assisted and allowed tourists to jump the line ahead of his constituents for buses out of the area. What say you to that. Are you aware that there are about 22,000 National Guard troops in the area now. There are only about 5,000 National Guard troops from Louisana in Iraq. I assure that the state has more then that.
Now, you seem to want to make this personal for some reason, thus the passion. What does Mrs. Shiavo have to do with our issue. You are intent it seems, to bend this into a partisan issue. Well, New Orleans is headed by a democratic Mayor and the State has a democratic Governor, so what? The fact that you are laying all blame at the president tells me that you have an agenda, and that the tragedy is being used to fit in that agenda.
First of all, it does take a couple a days to assess the situation. I served as a US Marine for eight (8) years, and myself, went through two (2) hurricanes, Bertha and Fran back to back in the late 1990s. My base Camp Johnson, was used as a shelter for families, and I had to pull duty in the gym that was used as the shelter. So if you are more qualificafied to assess disaster situation then me, I would like to learn from you. Remember New Orleans was not the only place to get hit, now compare the different situations.
Regards, Jacien
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 9:07pm
Dear Johannesrolf:
Government is government. We need to get away from this entitlement mindset. It does society no good.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 9:27pm
Dear Johannesrolf:
What is "rightous anger"? That sounds a bit religious to me, (not that I am against religion). Please explain.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 9:34pm
I'd just like to say the guy I'm quoting below (from Eric Alterman's blog) is very silly:
Obviously the temptation to mimic the childish insult-politics of right-wing mouthpieces must be strong. Katrina vanden Heuvel, editor of The Nation, makes this same mistake in her attempts to fight back against conservative court jesters making merry with the coincidence of her name being shared by Hurricane Katrina. After correctly pointing out the immaturity and lack of professionalism exhibited by those who get their jollies by linking her name to that of a storm responsible for death and destruction, vanden Heuvel tries to even the score with a few stupid remarks of her own. But her digs against Limbaugh and others fall terribly flat. You don't do yourself any favors by first criticizing and then proceeding to imitate the behavior of jackasses.
Posted by Roryl at 09/02/2005 @ 9:36pm
Jack031 - So 8 years as a grunt and now you're an expert in disaster situations. Be all that you can be really paid off for you. Or maybe that's the army. Anyway, the Terri Schiavo connection was that when the "crisis" (e.g., murder of Terri) was imminent our congress took action immediately. Now, with this new crisis (e.g., thousands struggling to survive), action from our government seemed to take a bit longer.
Where does your entitlement comment come from?
Posted by Fishbite at 09/02/2005 @ 9:45pm
I am not qualified to assess the disaster situation, and I have not clothed this in a partisan issue, although my dislike and disrespect of the president colors my views.I imagine your admiration for him colors yours.
what we see is not only a manifestation, it is a tragedy of gigantic proportions, that did not take a few days to become clear. and I did not lay blame only on Bush but on all those whose responsibility it is help.
even Bush has admitted that the response was grossly inadequate, so maybe you know more than he. the shameful behavior of the pres and the congress during the Schiavo affair offers a great contrast to their actions in this case, that's what it has to do with it
I am very sceptical of your number of 22 000 troops today, maybe that's what has been promised, but that too is not exactly my point. I am saying that this has been four days too late. I repeat there is blame to go all around but it does not stop before the president.
while it is true that New Orleans was not the only place hit, the situation there was so catastophic and the response so inadequate, and the suffering so severe, that this was the one I am talking about. you may speak of the others if you wish.
your personal anecdote is irrelevant to me and I do not get the point you are trying to make.
that america is part of the world while true, but again your point escapes me. my point is that these are scenes we would exspect from a third world country, but not from the most powerful and rich country in the world.
and this situation did not exactly come as a surprise, they even had simulated exercise recently, all the computer models had predicted this course of events. the administration preoccupation with Iraq, and taxcuts for the wealthy, led to repeated cuts in spending for this looming danger.
if I have an aganda, what is yours? apologist for the Gop which controls all levers of power? the figure of a third of the national guard being in Iraq came from the Wasghington Post, but perhaps again you know better.
now if I may truly get personal, I am not impressed by your marine cops anecdote. I do not regard those in uniform as heroes or our finest. I am not impressed by medals, my grandfather was a highly decorated soldier, two iron crosses, my father was conscripted,and lost his health and any kind of normal life in the war, my uncles served, my stepfather served in the american military.
I marched against the Vietnam war, had to take drastic measure to escape the draft. I have a 15 year old son and I can tell you that he will not be in the military, if a draft comes, he will be taken over my dead body. I do however know what war does to a country and its people, something that most americans do not, never having experienced a war on their soil.
america's wars have with two exceptions been reckless adventures, against far outgunned foes, clumsy shameful affairs all. I studied military history briefly in ROTC but have studied world history extensively, I'm always glad to compare readinglists, an offer that has never been accepted by right wing bloggers.
I am not negating your experience or your views, much as I disagree with them, I just wanted to be clear where I am coming from. remember this is a liberal blog.
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 9:49pm
thanks Fishbite
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 9:51pm
Jacko, your views on government are hazy, what does that mean, entitlement? you have worked for the government, are presumably still being remunerated by them. may I ask why you are not in Iraq?
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 9:53pm
Dear Johannesrolf:
Please re-read what I wrote and respond again. Maybe the second time, I will understand where you are going with this.
Regards, Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 9:54pm
what you see is what you get, this was a lenghty post, respond if you wish, I read your post contuously while I composed my response to you, perhaps you can allow me the same courtesy
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 10:02pm
Dear Fishbite:
Now lets put matters in context. When I reference my Corps experience that was in response to Johannesrolf issues with assessing a situation. The point that I made was that it takes a while to assess a situation. If one has standing water, with power lines that could electricute, etc., etc, (I personnally came across that situation), a satallite image will probably not tell you this, maybe? How do you detect all the wildlife in the water? Do you just jump in and go to work? So these things take time. Further, I made it clear that if Johannesrolf had a better solution, that I would like to learn from him/her. Instead I got attacked for being with the GOP. Earlier I said that I was a "liberal" in the European sense of the word, not the American, so how one could come to the former conclusion I don't know.
Congress knew that they wouldn't affect Mrs. Shiavo. It was all for show. All for election. If one can't see through that, well?
Did I answer your question?
Regards, Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 10:07pm
Dear Johannesrolf:
You said that this was a "liberal log", what about "Freedom of Speech"?
Also, although I am not a "right-wing" blogger, I do have a degree in History and would glady go through my reading list with you.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 10:15pm
it did not take a couple of days to assess this situation, a few minutes watching the news on the first day was enough
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 10:17pm
Jacko31 - not really. My question was about your use of the word "entitlement".
I hope the military folks weren't planning to dive into standing water, certainly without checking for alligators and such first. I'm just wondering why the impressive column of military amphibious vehicles or whatever they were that we saw driving through N.O. TODAY couldn't have shown up earlier, say on Wednesday. I haven't heard that they were delayed while folks cleared out the power lines and snakes in the water.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/02/2005 @ 10:18pm
Jacko31 - where does the freedom of speech complaint come from? No one's shutting you down. Speek away, oh liberal of the European persuasion.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/02/2005 @ 10:19pm
Goodnight all - will catch up tomorrow.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/02/2005 @ 10:21pm
Dear Johannesrolf:
Your last statement REALLY scared me. You know all this from watching TV?!! Stop watching TV, please. Serious.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 10:22pm
so you're a liberal Bush apologist. and your last entry is merely silly, you can do better than that
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 10:26pm
Fishbite you're precious, pleasant dreams
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 10:28pm
when I said that this was a liberal blog I did not imply that your comments were not welcome, I have taken great care to respond to you, something I would not have done were I not interested in conversing with you, no need to be paranoid
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 10:31pm
Dear Johannesrolf: ' You wrote:"america's wars have with two exceptions been reckless adventures, against far outgunned foes, clumsy shameful affairs all."
What wars are you talking about? 1) The Revolutionary War 2) Civil War 3) Spanish American War 4) World War I 5) World War II 5) The Barbary Pirate's War
Please explain.
Regards, Jacien
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 10:49pm
Dear Johannesrolf:
What is this Bush thing with you. Please research the word "liberal" in its classic sense, Adam Smith, etc..
Regards, Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 11:04pm
I wasn't going back that far, I mean Vietnam, Grenada, Dominican republic, Phillipines, Honduras, Guatemala, Panama, Nicaragua, Columbia, going on as we speak. the whole big stick policy, Monroe Doctrine, I guess Spanish american war is in there too, and most of all Iraq. I can see that you are a sincere thoughtful person and I don't mean to tar you with such a wide brush. you see, when writing one has to deal with sportsguy and USApride, and that takes a toll. also the jesus freaks were freaking me out. and seeing the suffering up close, so to speak, affected me very much emotionally. I was trying to give voice to these feelings, so if I was hasty in judging you, I'm sorry. I do however want to point out that Bush himself called the relief effort unacceptable, the first time I have ever heard him admit any shortcomings, and so it' s a bit odd that you seem so intent on apologizing for him. rest well, and may we cross words again, without being cross
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/02/2005 @ 11:08pm
Dear Fishbite:
I do not have enough facts to answer your question. We have to wait for the situation to settle down and then assess the situation.
Regards, Jacien
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 11:19pm
Jacko:
I understand what you are saying about emergency planning for a more "typical" incident, and emergency planning falls first on the states. However, this storm was not by the book. From the first days of this storm it was readily apparant (or should have been to federal officials) that this was something that the feds were going to need to jump on, quickly. We are talking about some of the poorer states in the country, by the way, so I question how equipped we could really expect them to be to cope with what happened. You also seem to imply that the governor did not have a proper plan in place. I am not sure where you get that or what plan he could have had under a best-case scenario; the sense I get from the news is that there was a failure at the federal level. Bush himself said it was unacceptable.
What we did not see was an immediacy of action. Maybe this is to blame on bureaucratic issues with the agencies involved. I have not laid all blame solely on Bush for the delayed response. While I certainly take my shots at him on other issues, my criticism has been pointed at the federal authorities at-large. Nonetheless, this causes me to question the capability of our federal leadership to act decisively in a time of national emergency (whether it is environmental or a military attack). For the past four years, billions of dollars have been spent on homeland security - at the federal level. Well, you tell me, after seeing this run, how much assurance does this give you? Some say this was totally unexpected, but this is not true. A class 5 hurricane was tracked for days. It was known that this exact type of storm could cause the levees to break causing massive flooding in urban areas. Even assuming for a moment that it was unexpected, a terrorist strike would also be so. Is this the response we should live with?
Small point: I think "urban warfare" is a little of an exagerration.
On an end point, I do not think I have been overly passionate about this, and have offered some logical points, so I do not quite understand your mention of this in your response to me.
Posted by Hman23 at 09/02/2005 @ 11:19pm
Dear Johannesrolf:
You wrote:
"I mean Vietnam, Grenada, Dominican republic, Phillipines, Honduras, Guatemala, Panama, Nicaragua, Columbia, going on as we speak."
Now with execption of Panama, those foes were not outmatched. As far as Columbia, I have a few Columbian friends and they do not like the FARC, etc...Maybe you agree with the FARC, ELN. etc..Battalion Dignidad, who knows, but
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 11:29pm
Dear Johannesrolf:
Maybe you should tell all the Hollywood elites to move from California and give it back to Mexico. Tell the Texans to move. Maybe the Arizonians. Well no, give the country back to England, and they can in turn give it back to the Native Americans and you can go back to the land of your forefathers. Go further, tell the Anglo Saxons to leave Britain,etc.. lets go back our original state.
Goodness!
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 11:39pm
Dear HMAN23:
Once again you have made some great points!
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 11:42pm
Posted by jacko31 at 09/02/2005 @ 11:42pm
Jack, whether you have friends in Colombia or not, and whether FARC are nice people or not, the fact is that the US is again involved in a civil war in a country far away, in a war hidden from its citizens.
I would prefer my government to be an honest broker for peace. your post about the wars and mini wars is just silly. let's forget for a moment the gun boat diplomacy practiced by the US in central america and concentrate on the two big wars, Vietnam and Iraq.
when the government uses lies and subterfuge to get into a war, it should not be surprised when public support for the adventure dwindles. you see in both cases our opponent knew what they are and were fighting for. the vietcong were fighting for their country, and had been doing so against the french colonialists, the japanese, the french again, installed by US, and finally the US. the american forces were fighting for the idea of anti communism.
in Iraq, we are fighting the government of Iraq, and they are fighting for their own survival, and for their dominance of Iraq, while we are fightng for the idea of bringing freedom and democracy to the mideast, or whatever. I plead guilty to being off topic here, but the war in Iraq has everything to do with the disaster in New Orleans, as funds for the reconstructions of the levee structures were diverted to the Iraq adventure.
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 08:04am
Jacko, what was this thing with posse commitatus?
By DEB RIECHMANN, Associated Press Writer 11 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - President Bush, seeking to stem criticism that a slow federal response has contributed to needless misery, said Saturday he is ordering additional active duty forces to the hurricane-battered Gulf Coast. ADVERTISEMENT
"The enormity of the task requires more resources," the president said. "In America we do not abandon our fellow citizens in their hour of need."
Bush said 4,000 active duty troops are already in the area and 7,000 more will arrive in the next 72 hours from the Army's 82nd Airborne from Fort Bragg, N.C., 1st Cavalry Division from Fort Hood, Texas, and the Marines' 1st and 2nd Expeditionary forces from Camp Pendleton, Calif., and Camp Lejeune, N.C.
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 10:58am
I guess you didn't really know what you were talking about
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 10:59am
I have no more words about the tragedy in New Orleans, so I will paste from news sites, read them and weep:
By Mark Egan Fri Sep 2,11:44 PM ET
NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - With the rotors of President George W. Bush's helicopter sounding overhead, New Orleans' poor and downtrodden recounted tales of murder, rape, death threats and near starvation since Hurricane Katrina wrecked this city. ADVERTISEMENT
Ending days of abandonment since the hurricane struck on Monday, the U.S. National Guard handed out military rations and a bottle of water to thousands of evacuees -- the first proper meal most had eaten in days.
But as the masses lined up outside, herded by Army troops toting machine guns, inside the convention center where these people slept since Monday was the stench of death and decay.
Leroy Fouchea, 42, waited in the sweltering heat for an hour to get his ration -- his first proper food since Monday -- and immediately handed it over to a sickly friend.
He then offered to show reporters the dead bodies of a man in a wheelchair, a young man who he said he dragged inside just hours earlier, and the limp forms of two infants, one just four months old, the other six months old.
"They died right here, in America, waiting for food," Fouchea said as he walked toward Hall D, where the bodies were put to get them out of the searing heat.
He said people were let die and left without food simply because they were poor and that the evacuation effort earlier concentrated on the French Quarter of the city. "Because that's where the money is," he spat.
A National Guardsman refused entry.
"It doesn't need to be seen, it's a make-shift morgue in there," he told a Reuters photographer. "We're not letting anyone in there anymore. If you want to take pictures of dead bodies, go to Iraq."
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 11:16am
In addition to Guard help, the federal government could have activated, but did not, a major air support plan under a pre-existing contract with airlines. The program, called Civilian Reserve Air Fleet, lets the government quickly put private cargo and passenger planes into service.
The CRAF provision has been activated twice, once for the Persian Gulf War and again for the Iraq war. Jacko, I suggest you reread your posts. my view is that you were defending the indefensable.
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 11:22am
in fact I suggest all of us should reread our posts of yesterday
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 11:25am
Dear Johannesrolf:
Goodmorning. For every news article that you find, I can give you supporting the other. It is called research. Maybe you should have sent your resume to FEMA years ago. I am sure that they could use your advise.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 12:33pm
Dear Johannesrolf:
As far as countries interfering in other countries business consider this:
(by the way you are wrong about the US installing the French in Indochina, the French got there back in the 1800s)
Guinea in Liberia Liberia in Sierra Leone France in Ivory Coast Turkey in Cyprus Greece in Cyprus Italy in Lybia Syria in Lebanon Norway in Indonesia Australia in Indonesia and on and on and on......
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 12:38pm
Dear Johannesrolf:
It took MONTHS to activate CRAF.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 12:41pm
Jacko31 - Yeah, part of what the right has managed to do is eliminate the notion that there is such a thing as objective truth. As far as you're concerned, the NYT, Wash Post, AP, Reuters, Knight-Ridder, etc. are just providing their own spin, right? So, whatever article or blog you find that conflicts with these news sources proves ... what exactly?
Posted by Fishbite at 09/03/2005 @ 12:42pm
Jacko31 - So if anyone else did it (interfere with other countries) it's OK for the US to do it too? Gosh, and I guess the newthink must be 2 wrongs (or 3 or 4) DO make a right.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/03/2005 @ 12:43pm
Dear Johannesrolf:
You base your entire thesis on US foreign policy on Vietnam and Iraq? What about the Mashall Plan, etc...You seem to have a limited grasp on history. History that suites your agenda.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 12:44pm
Fishbite I never said that. What I said in the interest of true research and scholarship is that ONE CAN ALWAYS FIND RESEARCH TO PROVE THEIR AGENDA. HAVING WRITTEN 100S OF PAPERS IN COLLEGE I KNOW THIS FACT. THE TRUTH IS ALWAYS SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE.
JACKO31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 12:47pm
Dear Fishbite:
My point with intervention is that it is part of "real-politik", (even the Clinton administration intervened in other Countries business, Haiti, Bosnia, Liberia, etc...) Human nature. I am sure that you intefer in other people's lives. Political entities are are the emdodiment of human nature. Read "The Federalist Papers", Adam Smith, Rosseau, etc..
That might help you understand the political nature of human beings.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 12:52pm
Dear Fishbite and Johannesrolf:
Is you both have the time and resources a couple of good 200-300 level political science and history classes at the college level could help expand your knowledge a lot.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 12:56pm
Sorry that was supposed to be "IF"
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 12:57pm
Dear Fishbite and Johannesrolf:
By the way, I read "The Economist", "The Financial Times" (both European publications) and the "Washington Post". "The Economist" and "The Financial Times" both require a high degree of intellect to comprehend.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 1:01pm
Dear Fishbite and Johannesrolf:
The reason that I wrote the above is due that your counter arguments are "living room talk" and devoid of any substance. It is infact, playground banter. Please elevate your capacity in order to stimulate a real debate. Thank you.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 1:11pm
Jacko31 - Oh, the condescension. Please, pardon me if I am not awed by your reading and comprehension skills. Forgive me also if I feel like I've forgotten what the heck we're arguing about. If someone expresses disagreement, all of a sudden it becomes living room talk or, god forbid, playground banter? Liberal of europe, elevate thyself, then come back and talk with the grownups.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/03/2005 @ 1:21pm
Dear Fishbite:
Please explain in detail how how arrived at the above conclusion.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 1:23pm
Dear Fishbite:
Sorry again, that should have been "how you"
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 1:24pm
Jacko31 - Another thing- the truth is not "somewhere in the middle". The truth is not derived by taking an average. There really is a series of facts, things that actually take place. These are the what, when, where kind of things. Now, as to the why, the implications of what happened, the implications and conclusions we draw from them. That's where differences can reasonably be expressed.
I'm wondering about the 100s of papers you wrote in school if your purpose was to find any source to prove your point. Hey, you probably could have written a paper on how the world is flat or the holocaust didn't occur. What relevance does that have to our discussion?
Posted by Fishbite at 09/03/2005 @ 1:27pm
Jacko31 - What conclusion? Please state the conclusion you believe I reached in detail. With that in place, I will attempt to explain in detail how I reached it.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/03/2005 @ 1:28pm
Dear Fishbite:
Please explain in detail why and how you arrived at the following:
"the NYT, Wash Post, AP, Reuters, Knight-Ridder, etc. are just providing their own spin, right?"
"So if anyone else did it (interfere with other countries) it's OK for the US to do it too? Gosh, and I guess the newthink must be 2 wrongs (or 3 or 4) DO make a right"
"If someone expresses disagreement, all of a sudden it becomes living room talk or, god forbid, playground banter?"
I am trying to figure whether it was a genuine thought or whether is was by prejudice.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 1:32pm
Dear Fishbite:
I guess you believe in absolutes, you wrote: "Another thing- the truth is not "somewhere in the middle". Interesting. You must have possesion of "The Truth", or know where to find it.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 1:35pm
Dear Fishbite:
You wrote:"Hey, you probably could have written a paper on how the world is flat or the holocaust didn't occur", what in the world gave you that impression of me, especially knowing what I have written thus far?
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 1:37pm
Dear Fishbite:
You wrote:"I'm wondering about the 100s of papers you wrote in school if your purpose was to find any source to prove your point", that made no sense at all, period.
Please explain how one writes a paper without sources to find sources to prove a point.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 1:42pm
Jacko31,
You said: For every news article that you find, I can give you supporting the other.
I inferred, perhaps incorrectly, that you meant that news organizations like the NYT, Wash Post, AP, Reuters, Knight-Ridder, etc. were just providing their own spin, that for everything they reported, you could provide a contradictory report. I associated this with what I characterize as a right-wing concerted effort to eliminate the concept of any agreed-upon truth, only the truth filtered through a political perspective.
I believe you provided a brief response on real-politik, situations where countries believe they have to take action in other countries in response to my '2 wrongs make a right' comment. I believe we differ on how a country can best pursue its own self interest.
You characterized my and other folks' comments as playground banter without any explanation and thus would not comment further until the interchange was more elevated.
Whatever I post represents "genuine thought", I think, certainly not fake thought. And guess what, Jacko my true moderate, we all operate within our set of prejudices, even you.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/03/2005 @ 1:47pm
Dear Fishbite and Johannesrolf:
Well I must leave, got to watch some college ball. I am sure that my company will be missed.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 1:48pm
Dear Fishbite:
"I believe we differ on how a country can best pursue its own self interest."
I was wondering, do you buy 100% American made? If you do but foreign goods, do you know how the trade agreements were reach between both countries.
What are your views on agricultural subsidies, Doha, NAFTA, CAFTA, etc...
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 1:53pm
Jacko31 - I'm not sure I can express myself clearly enough for you. Or perhaps you're intentionally being obtuse. The entertainment value of explaining myself to you has waned, dramatically. This is my final post on this topic, whatever the heck the topic is. Yes, I believe there is a 'truth', a set of facts that corresponds to what really happened somewhere. How many people were killed during some incident in Iraq, for example, who did the killing, what was going on at the time, etc. I am not in possession of this truth, but I believe that through careful investigation the truth can be uncovered. Do we disagree on this?
I also believe that if someone chooses to write a paper on the flatness of the world, for example only, they would likely find numerous sources that could support this position. I'm not saying that you did this, just that it could be done. Do we disagree on this?
That's it, I conclude our interactions, Jacko31. Thanks for the memories. Unless there's actually an on-topic discussion. Then, I'll dive back in.
Posted by Fishbite at 09/03/2005 @ 1:55pm
Dear Fishbite:
You wrote: "I associated this with what I characterize as a right-wing concerted effort to eliminate the concept of any agreed-upon truth, only the truth filtered through a political perspective."
And the left doesn't do the same? Stop being so partisan. You seem better then that.
Further please give me some examples of some agreed upon "truths".
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 1:57pm
jacko, the US installed the french after the japanese were defeated. in fact the US asked the japanese to stay on for a while after they had been defeated to give the french a chance to come back. my chronology was clear.
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 3:10pm
jacko, your posts have gotten condescending and snide and pretty much useless. we ALL went to collge and wrote hundreds of papers. this thing with Marshall plan is absurd I was talking about wars, you are fudging distinctions. we all read, I too read the Economist etc, Rousseau too, don't puff yourself up. this last round of posts was really beside the point. Fema did a terrible job, Bush did not lead, until the fourth day. there will be much fall out from their failures. perhaps they can invite you to testify for the defense. Fishbite, bravo, this fool must be put in his place, you've done so.
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 3:20pm
the problem with the "evacuation" of new Orleans can be summed up this way: if you're white, you're alright, if you're black, get back.
the myth of a classless society has been buried forever
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 3:49pm
Dear Johannesrolf:
The History of Indochina doesn't begin in after 1945. The French colonized the place completelt in 1887. During WWII the Japanese invaded the place. With US help the Japanese were defeated and the French took back their colonial possesion.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 6:18pm
It's a grrrrreat opportunity to really include Benign Energy resources in the restoration and reconstruction of New Orleans.
Always love to get away from the BS PR/PC media obfuscation wagging the dog and see the facts in places like this. Too bad the truth is only surfacing in certain pockets...
PS. And beware of Red Cross. Their track record has been reported on many occasions to be far from clean where the total money distribution for actual relief is concerned. Better to find a local N.O.'s charity instead.
Posted by emg at 09/03/2005 @ 6:21pm
Dear Johannesrolf:
I seriously doubt that you read "The Economist". And then calling me names when you run out of something intellligent to say. Rather childish, really. Further, the Marshall plan had noting to do with war? You wrote:"this thing with Marshall plan is absurd I was talking about wars, you are fudging distinctions." Ask yourself why was the Marshall plan needed. Frankly, revisionist history is not history. I doubt your credentials.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 6:24pm
Dear EMG:
I agree with you.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 6:25pm
Check this site [prisonplanet.com] out if you haven't yet..
Posted by emg at 09/03/2005 @ 6:47pm
it's nice to see agreement somewhere.
Posted by emg at 09/03/2005 @ 6:56pm
Dear EMG:
Thank you. I wonder how prepared are Los Angeles, San Francisco and Seattle? Hopefully events in New Orleans will spark concerns or at least re-energize the debate.
Jacko31
Posted by jacko31 at 09/03/2005 @ 7:21pm
All,
I second what FrankGrits laid out concerning Sean Rightwing Hannity and Rush the drug addict Slimebaugh. Ms. Vanden Heuvel you have a heart of gold and you are truly one of the greatest treasures that the honest liberal left has to offer. The United States would be losing an incredible voice for social justice were anything to happen to you. Keep up the good work and as Harry Truman said,
Well tell the Rightwingers (Republicans) the truth and they think its hell!!
Posted by POSEIDON at 09/03/2005 @ 7:35pm
jacko, please, you have no idea, when I was talking about war I was talking about war, not POST war. the Economist isn't exactly Ulysses, it is a right wing publication similar to the Wall st journal.why you would think that readership of that publication is some kind of badge of intellect or erudition is beyond me. I have not hawked any credentials, and your posts were so dumb and so ignorant of what I had to say.
the americans brought the french back, what I said in this regard is the fact, they asked the Japanese not to withdraw from indochina after the war, until the french returned. the french were installed by US. they would not have been in any position to take Indochina back by themselves, having no real army left, and very shaky leadership. this was the first of the US's betrayal of HO CHI MINH, who after all had cooperated with the US in defeating the Japanese. the second betrayal was the cancellation of the promised 1954 nationwide Vietnamese elections, which Ho would have won easily. also they did not defeat the Japanese with US help, that's just ridiculous. how would a Vichy government of France be in any position to fight against Japan? your ignorance is showing baby.
in fact, the Japanese invasion of Indochina was the casus belli of the war, it was the final straw for the US. for the Japanese the casus belli was the embargo of steel the US had slapped on Japan. then there were four months of talks to try to avoid war
it's as if you didn't actually read my post but just go off to hear yourself talk.
a bit more post WW2 history. one of the american ideas for germany was the Morgenthau plan, so we'll have a little quiz, oh educated one. please describe the Morgenthau plan for us.
sorry readers, this must be awfully tedious for you, but this clown makes statements that bear little relation to facts so I have to rebut, it's tedious for me too
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 8:46pm
Jacko, of course you can just google the morgenthau plan, but that's cheating, honor system. my point is that the Marshall plan was the answer to the morgenthau plan, and it did not come about for some time after war's end
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 8:52pm
for those still interested in the subject of this thread, here's a little tidbit from the news wires. still terribly proud to be american?
By ALLEN G. BREED, Associated Press Writer 18 minutes ago
NEW ORLEANS - Thousands more bedraggled refugees were bused and airlifted to salvation Saturday, leaving the heart of New Orleans to the dead and dying, the elderly and frail stranded too many days without food, water or medical care. ADVERTISEMENT
No one knows how many were killed by Hurricane Katrina's floods and how many more succumbed waiting to be rescued. But the bodies are everywhere: hidden in attics, floating among the ruined city, crumpled on wheelchairs, abandoned on highways.
And the dying goes on
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 8:56pm
"It seems almost as if a nuclear weapon went off in New Orleans." – Nell Henderson" I find this extremely offensive, it trivializes the suffering of the victims of the two atom bomb attacks, which after all were of a much higher magnitude. anyone else feel that way?
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 9:13pm
Haliburton hired for New Orleans clean up. any outrage out there?
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 9:20pm
in case you missed this:
Many in New Orleans described nights at the mercy of rapists and murderers. They complained security forces sent to guard them at the city's convention center were trigger happy and killed innocent people.
"They killed a man here last night," Steve Banka, 28, told Reuters. "A young lady was being raped and stabbed. And the sounds of her screaming got to this man and so he ran out into the street to get help from troops, to try to flag down a passing truck of them, and he jumped up on the truck's windshield and they shot him dead."
Those who fled the city and found shelter elsewhere described horrific scenes in New Orleans' neighborhoods before they escaped.
"There were bodies floating everywhere. Lots of them. Some had bullets in them," said Michael Davis, 18, as he described his escape from a neighborhood that was immersed in more than 10 feet of water earlier this week. He ultimately found refuge at a domed arena in Lafayette, Louisiana
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 9:57pm
The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, enacted during the post-Civil War reconstruction period, prohibits federal military personnel from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States. But the president can waive the law in an emergency.
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/03/2005 @ 10:48pm
IN EMERGENCIES BUSH'S MALFEASANT ADMINISTRATION (pyramid scheme).. that can ONLY be depicted as macro and utter corruption.. (which has never been a secret by any stretch of the imagination) not to leave out all guilty by association mind you, and definitely not forgeting to mention the lack of conviction by the people of even the most limited mental wherewithal regarding, STILL CONTINUE TO CAUSE...
CONJUNCTION JUNCTION WHAT'S YOUR FUNCTION??!
... doomed to repeat hisory...
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Posted by emg at 09/04/2005 @ 11:38am
And standing outside the White House with signs for a day is the best that will be done with years of incriminating evidence...??
P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!
The people are about as much the disaster as Bush. But let's say you get Bush eventually with what, tax evasion? And then have Cheney? And then who, Rice? I'd say start minding legal minds, again, but since that's been overtly made a practical impossibility.. by Supreme Couruption... it's up to competent people to get it together. I've spelled it out enough. Is there any competent people out there integral enough to initiate what's right...???? Does anybody with wherewithal have a damn clue?
Posted by emg at 09/04/2005 @ 12:12pm
on to your next blog
hell, i'd get more out of MAD magazine.
Posted by emg at 09/04/2005 @ 12:17pm
I want to thank Jacko for his spirited defense of Bush's failure. from practically the first day you were so helpful explaining why help did not arrive. we were so heartened by your patriotic defense of the incompetents, pointing out that it takes time to assess the situation, regaling us with a trenchant anecdote from you own personal experience.
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/05/2005 @ 09:26am