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RedditIn 2000, the Surgeon General released a report describing "the silent epidemic of oral diseases" affecting mainly the poor due to lack of access to dental care. Two weeks ago, that silence was broken in Maryland when a 12 year old homeless boy, Deamonte Driver, died tragically due to an untreated molar infection which spread to his brain.
Driver's death has again drawn attention to how very few dentists are available to the poor and working class. In Maryland, for example, only 900 out of 5,500 dentists even accept Medicaid. As a consequence, there is a struggle to get an appointment, and travel time can take as much as three hours for a single dental visit. Moreover, in the case of Driver's mother, according to The Post, "…bakery, construction and home health-care jobs she has held have not provided insurance."
In response to this child's horrific death, Maryland's junior Senator, Ben Cardin, introduced the Children's Dental Health Improvement Act of 2007 last week that would authorize $40 million (less than 4 hours of Iraq funding) to help community health centers hire dentists to serve poor children. It would also help states in increasing Medicaid reimbursement rates for dentists.
As Cardin said on the Senate floor: "It is outrageous today that in America, a young boy can die because his family can't find a dentist to remove an infected tooth. It is not enough simply to mourn Deamonte's death. We must learn from this failure of our health-care system and take action to make sure it never happens again. Congress must act to make sure every child in America has access to quality dental care."
A Maryland State Senate bill had already been introduced to provide $2 million annually over the next three years to expand dental clinics for the poor. But after the initial Washington Post stories about Deamonte "added urgency" to the bill, it has subsequently been revealed that the $6 million in state funding will not necessarily be available. According to The Post, Thomas M. Middleton, the bill's sponsor, said that "in the event that there is some money, that money will be targeted where there is the greatest need." Middleton is optimistic he can work with the Health Secretary to move around previously budgeted resources but there are no guarantees.
The outrage is, as recently elected Maryland State Senator and Nation contributor Jamie Raskin said, "We always have enough money for things we don't need – like funding the war in Iraq, or boondoggle projects that will make developers a lot of money. But when it comes to things we do need – like dental care for kids – suddenly there's no money. The fact is states are scrambling to patch together a fundamentally broken health care system, but until we move to a universal, single-payer type of approach, that's how it's going to be."
Raskin also pointed out that poor dental care – such as rotting teeth, abscesses and gum disease – results in adverse social outcomes as kids grow up and enter the workforce. "If we are consigning our kids to poor dental health," Raskin said, "we are limiting their opportunities for a lifetime."
If ever there were a case of skewed priorities this is one – and the costs couldn't be clearer or more heartbreaking. A child has lost his life due to a toothache, and our government's callousness to easily remedied suffering has been revealed.
Now that this epidemic is no longer silent who will lead a humane and sane response?
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Katrina vanden Heuvel
Thoughts on politics, current affairs, riffs and reflections on what’s in the news and what’s not--but should be.
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In Maryland, for example, only 900 out of 5,500 dentists even accept Medicaid. As a consequence, there is a struggle to get an appointment, and travel time can take as much as three hours for a single dental visit.
I find it hard to believe that it takes 3 hours to go anywhere in Maryland.
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 03/11/2007 @ 7:35pm
That said, it is absurd that we don't have universal health insurance in this country. Republicans keep us stuck in the 1800's...
Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 03/11/2007 @ 7:36pm
Ya, know, I missed that one...Free dental care.
...they just keep comin'...yeah, thats a right too...
I have a question, which will confused everyone here,
... but were where the parents? I know that poverty and no dental care is the fault of Bush and the greedy oil companies, but if there is an infection that big in the boys mouth, the kid had to be in pain EVERY time he chewed, for what, days? months?.. his mouth had to smell as bad as babys diaper....why wasn't someone contacted? His welfare agent, school counselor, WIC, Food stamp program, head start...some one has to start to notice breath that smells like he had been eating shit for breakfast...are you telling me that in 12 years the parents couldn't come up with $ 65 for a dental exam, say, saving $ 6.00 a year for ten years ...would pay for the filling?
When I was at Marquette and decided NOT to attend dental school, I noticed they had a free ..FREE, program for the poor for all dental care...all they had to do was show up and get assigned a student..
One last question, I would like to know if the parents or parent, smoke or drink alcohol, does the kid have air Jordans or skate board crapp at $ 100 a pop.....those items are more expensive per year than dental visits...I would demand to interview the parents before I started to bitch about the lack of another program that the kooks here want to make a federal resposibility...
BY the way, when do I get my free hair cuts? We need a program for free hair cuts...
Posted by john maasch at 03/11/2007 @ 7:59pm
"In Maryland, for example, only 900 out of 5,500 dentists even accept Medicaid."
And my guess fewer and fewer will accept medi-whatever since they pay so little of the bill...if a filling is $ 65 and the cost is $30 or more, and the govt/insurance wants to pay $40...I would refuse too...it is a recipe for bankruptcy.
Thats why Hillary care will have to be FORCED on all of us, those who don't want it but must pay for it, and those who do not want to perform it at those prices.... all this will equal..shitty care and service
And that is usually the case from what I have heard from my family and friends who practice various medical disciplines.
Posted by john maasch at 03/11/2007 @ 8:05pm
And how soon until it becomes..."free caps"..."free whitening"?
BTW, he tried to make amends in his second, but doesn't ILP's FIRST post sound rather..."Maskian"?
hehe
Posted by Mask at 03/11/2007 @ 9:12pm
JM You're the only one blaming bush and oil companies.You can have this type of infection with no smell at all.You'd be amazed how many people have had to have body parts cut off or died who had little,if any, idea anything was wrong.Free haircuts from you and whitening from the other no compassion semi human.A child died.Please,at least, say nothing rather than mention oil companies,haircuts,Air Jordans,whitening,etc.Have respect.You two should just pretend the child was white so you can feel a little compassion.
Posted by i'm nobody at 03/11/2007 @ 9:25pm
I think the deeper problem in Katrina's argument is that it never really does any kind of comparative analysis. It posits a flaw in the status quo, and then just asserts that universal health care will solve this problem and virtually any others as well. This is problematic since any system we can come with is going to have flaws and difficulties.
Regardless of how we individual feel about universal health care, we need to recognize that there's a legitimate debate to be had; both those in favor of universal health care and those against it need to recognize that there are often very reasonable considerations motivating the opposing stance. Personally, I oppose universal health care because I think that it will make the system worse, but I recognize that there are legitimate claims to be made on the other side of the issue. That's also why I was really glad to see all of the deeper debate on universal health care on some other threads, and would very much like the Nation's own articles to reflect that this kind of legitimate disagreement exists.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/11/2007 @ 10:10pm
Let's face it: the US government is dominated by people who are the rich, and are for the rich. The highest offices of power are occupied by figures and staff who completely loathe and hate anyone who has to work for a living, in particular, anyone who is poor. These people have an entire ideological perspective on the government and the economy in general which is predicated on the idea that all government processes and economic processes first and foremost exist to make wealthier those who all already rich. If you have to find work to sustain yourself in the US then the US government and US political power on the national level is not about you. US political power on the national level is about the plutocracy managing its economy according to its own profit interests. These people would rather not ever see a poor person, defined as anyone who is not part of the exclusive 2% club.
Posted by ZERO 03/11/2007 @ 10:06pm
How do you justify this conclusion?
Posted by Thrawn at 03/11/2007 @ 10:13pm
NOBNODY,
"Have respect.You two should just pretend the child was white so you can feel a little compassion."
White? What the fuck? A kook and loon remark, and uneducated at best. Shame on you..I am embarassed for you...
I do have respect, this child needs help and he is not getting from his family...I still need more info on the parents..maybe the child is in an abusive home? I have an oral surgeon in my family...he read this...
This type of decay, to the jaw, one would feel...
This to me is child abuse...if, as Frank thinks, they are too poor for anything, then some govt agency is in their lives in some manner...I, as a member of Franks bigger family, don't think it has anything to do with Repub or Dem party, but parental failure on a massive scale..not a failure of me to buy him dental care..
Posted by john maasch at 03/11/2007 @ 11:51pm
Frank and the typical fairness
Yikes....
...we all need to be treatd fair...in the real world grown ups teach their children that of all things life has to offer, good and bad, "fair" isn't one of them...like a child yelling.."it isn't fair!!! and my responce is, no, it isn't, but thats it sometimes..and it happens to everybody..".
Posted by john maasch at 03/11/2007 @ 11:55pm
I see ZERO is at it again....poor tortured soul...must be tough living with him in his house hold...
It just isn't FAIR!!!!!
Posted by john maasch at 03/11/2007 @ 11:58pm
...I, as a member of Franks bigger family, don't think it has anything to do with Repub or Dem party, but parental failure on a massive scale..not a failure of me to buy him dental care..
Could I get a towel for you now that you've finished washing your hands?
Posted by canaar at 03/12/2007 @ 12:12am
...And how soon until it becomes..."free caps"..."free whitening"?
I suppose that will cost us some money all right and I realize that I'm a piker in this group having only a five figure tax bill.
I can bear that cost a whole lot easier than I can bear the cost of validating his freedom to die as a child. What kind of village does it take to stand by and watch a child die when the village had the resources to intervene successfully?
"...Some kind of government agency in their lives in some manner." I think our nation has been pretty successful at shedding much of that kind of obligation over the last twenty-seven years.
I wonder how long it takes an abscess to become septic? Social workers case loads in Maryland are probably a lot more reasonable than they are in other places.
Now I feel all better.
Posted by canaar at 03/12/2007 @ 12:27am
You really ought to read the Washington Post article before you comment, Mr. Maasch. It's very clear that the mother is not to blame. When she was told to wait from Oct 5 until Jan 18 - 4 months - before seeing an oral surgeon, because that was the first available appointment - do you really think she had any choice? Do you think she or anyone else could have or should have foreseen what the consequences of that wait time would be? Do you really believe that if anyone had known, they would have allowed things to unfold as they did?
Blaming the child's death on so-called 'parental failure' is a repugnant insult and frankly, you should know better than to stoop to that level.
No one is asking you to foot the bill for this child or his living siblings, Mr. Maasch. But it's worth reflecting on what things might have to change in order for a society not to reflexively turn away from the entirely preventable death of a twelve year old boy. Perhaps the things that need to change have less to do with tax structures and medicaid funding, and more to do with how we respond when he hear about the misfortunes of other people.
Posted by maddox at 03/12/2007 @ 12:33am
correction, last sentence:
when WE hear ...
Posted by maddox at 03/12/2007 @ 12:34am
MAX,
"No one is asking you to foot the bill for this child or his living siblings, Mr. Maasch..
Sure you are...its in the article posted above.
"Congress must act to make sure every child in America has access to quality dental care."
4 months..what about the other 2 years? There was a bigger problem than 4 months, a bad tooth and then one child dies..
I am saying there is more to this than we have been told.
If you read any more into my posts then you are fishing.
Posted by john maasch at 03/12/2007 @ 12:40am
Leave No Dentist Behind
This should be the motto of the American Dental Association - one of the richest and influential health PAC's out there.
The ADA has fooled everyone into believing they actually care about poor people by foisting fluoridation on all of us - a failed concept, by the way, wasting hundreds of millions of your tax dollars and endangering your health.
Far from putting themselves out of business with fluoridation, dentists now make more money than many physicians while working fewer days and fewer hours doing expensive dentistry, cosmetic work and giving spa treatments to those who can afford it or have great insurance.
There are groups willing to fill the void left by these dentists to work in dentist-deficient rural areas.
Dental Health Aide Therapists (DHATs)are sort of advanced dental hygienists trained in about three years to drill, fill and pull teeth in people and geographic regions where dentists won't go. They have worked for decades in other countries as effectively and more cheaply than dentists. The first U.S. DHAT is working in Alaska. However, the ADA and the Alaska Dental Society are suing them to get them to stop.
Organized dentistry wants you to believe they care so much about the rural people there that, while they won't go to Alaska and fix their teeth at all, they don't want the Alaskans to suffer sub-standard dental care. Yeah right. Organized dentistry just doesn't any group infringing on its lucrative monopoly.
Whether you like it or not, you are paying for the emergency room treatment of America's low-incomed when dentists refuse to treat their early decay. Dentists must be required to accept a certain number of patients who are on Medicaid for what's given them or do it for free. They are rich enough and have enough extra time and need to give back to the taxpayers who have helped support their education and/or dental schools.
Organized dentistry has created an epidemic of tooth decay and an oral health crisis on their watch. Why would you give more money to their failed system of dental care?
There's also a good article about how allowing more dental hygienists to work in states which could alleviate the problem without just putting more money into dentists rich portfolio's
"Saving Dentistry from the Jaws of Defeat" http://www.american.com/archive/2007/march-0307/saving-dentistry-from-th e-jaws-of-defeat
Posted by CK at 03/12/2007 @ 05:48am
Posted by CANAAR 03/12/2007 @ 12:27am
My question was on the INEVITABLE expansion into just about everything "dental"...like universal health care will eventually pay for free nose jobs and tummy tucks.
Why?...because politicians will use the system to keep the MIDDLE CLASS supportive of them and will HAVE to offer increased benefits to do so. And liberals who came up with the original "basic benefit" program....won't stop them.
Posted by Mask at 03/12/2007 @ 06:27am
Inevitable expansion into elective care?
I believe I would characterize that argument as putting a strawman to work as a scarecrow. Don't try to do something right...it may turn into something bad.
I can see how people might consider that government is inept and doesn't work to the benefit of the people. That was the enitre point of the Reaganistas and they've done a bang-up job with it. With the current occupant of the WH, hell, they don't even have to pretend to want to govern effectively anymore.
Posted by canaar at 03/12/2007 @ 07:41am
Well, as one literally at the threshold...
The well heeled have every bit of an attitude of entitlement as those at the opposite end of the socioeconomic spectrum. There are fewer of the filthy rich than there are of the unwashed poor, and in general, the upper echelon is more sophisticated at coaxing what they want from the system, but the attitude is the same.
Any 'fix' in the system needs to emphasize keeping people well (i.e. paying for primary care) rather than dumping dollars into intervention. We waste billions on preventable illnesses (e.g. COPD from smoking) and/or preventable complications to long term illnesses (e.g. diabetes) that can be managed by primary care docs - if they have enough time to do so.
Under our present 'system,' primary care is under reimbursed, forcing care providers to double and triple book schedules just to make ends meet in their practices. Lack of acute visit appointments forces people with non-emergency problems into energency departments, where care is extremely expensive.
Dental care IS a form of primary care; emerging evidence links untreated dental disease to increased risk of coronary artery disease, and in one British study, pancreatic cancer.
This young boy should never have died from a preventable illness, and yes, there is plenty of blame to go around.
I see an awful lot of people in my ER with dental disease - some of it real, some of it factitious. The real disease is quite horrific and I can do little for it other than a nerve block, some antibiotic and pain medicine. I know damn well that the patient will be back, because they don't have money for the dentist. And for you, Maasch(k), I do point out to patients that if they have money for smokes, quitting would allow them to save enough money for dental work.
Changing things here in the States is going to be painful, akin to passing a kidney stone the size/texture of a peach pit. The 'market' won't work, as the medical care is too complex, and there are too many variables (cost of medical education, rural care) that the market cannot account for.
What I find absolutely hilarious in all of this is that nobody pontificating about solutions (i.e. the blowhards running for president, governor, etc) really ever seem to get around to asking those of us in the trenches what to do. They just appoint another panel of schmucks from Blue Ribbon University who haven't practiced dick in 30 years and then perseverate over the panel's recommendations.
Was that cynical?
Posted by skeletonman at 03/12/2007 @ 09:41am
'energency' = emergency
Posted by skeletonman at 03/12/2007 @ 09:44am
As tragic as this boys death is, KVH's reaction to it is so typical. Like quail shooting with a cannon, she wants to correct a single death with a complete revamping of the system-and not even the correct revamping of the system.
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 03/12/2007 @ 09:48am
I have no training in dentistry, so I can't help that way. I'm a graduate student, so I can't build a clinic. But I DO know that God loves EVERYONE, even those without insurance and homes, so I will buy toothbrushes, toothpaste, floss, and rinses and give them to my local homeless shelter. And I will pray for some of you completely nasty and mean-spirited freaks (MASK) who obviously get pleasure out of seeing people suffer. Wow, isn't that the meaning of conservatism..."Vote conservative. Won't you help us benefit from the suffering of others?"
Posted by AmyInIndiana at 03/12/2007 @ 09:50am
...Like quail shooting with a cannon...
Posted by CHIP THORNTON 03/12/2007 @ 09:48am
So, going hunting with the Vice President, in other words.
Where did he shoot that guy, again?
Oh, yeah. IN THE FACE
Posted by skeletonman at 03/12/2007 @ 10:10am
It's worth posting a link to the NY Times article [tinyurl.com] that ZERO mentioned earlier. The health of tens of thousands of children is treated in the most cavalier fashion imaginable by the don't-give-a-damn Republican elite none of whom in their entire lives have experienced a challenging economic circumstance.
"Under a 2006 federal law, the Deficit Reduction Act, most people who say they are United States citizens and want Medicaid must provide "satisfactory documentary evidence of citizenship," which could include a passport or the combination of a birth certificate and a driver's license.
Some state officials say the Bush administration went beyond the law in some ways, for example, by requiring people to submit original documents or copies certified by the issuing agency."
How precious is it to refer to this as a Deficit Reduction Act when the Republicans have spent us into the biggest budget deficit in history with their profligate war which has harmed our national interests rather than served them?
For example:
A FORMER Iraqi defence minister whose 10 months in office coincided with the disappearance of more than $US800 million ($1 billion) from the ministry's coffers is living openly in Amman and London despite a warrant for his arrest.
He left Baghdad before the next government discovered that a fortune had been looted from his ministry's account in what one senior investigator has called "one of the largest thefts in history".
Hazem al-Shaalan, a small businessman in London until Saddam Hussein was ousted in 2003, rose in a year to take one of the most important jobs in the interim government that ran Iraq from 2004 to 2005.
http://tinyurl.com/2xsny2
Now that's a stirring Republican-style rags-to-riches story. Promoted from proprietor of a London pizza joint to Iraqi defense minister to retirement ten months later with $800 million in shrink-wrapped American currency with apparent total immunity. The only job requirement was the ability to praise to the skies the "American liberation".
It's astounding to witness the Republican cretins here with their laser-like focus on poor children with health problems as representative of all that's wrong with their world.
Posted by fromredbird at 03/12/2007 @ 11:41am
To give us a measure of the sociopathic level of the Republican cretins posting here at The Nation we need only peruse the most recent poll on American attitudes toward universal health insurance. What the poll reveals more than anything is a general ignorance among the American public that universal health coverage would have a lower net cost than the current non-system. That ignorance is contributed to by the poll itself with questions like:
Should the federal government guarantee health insurance for all Americans, even if that meant the cost of your own health insurance would go up, or is it not the government's responsibility?
From the article:
The poll found Americans across party lines willing to make some sacrifice to ensure that every American has access to health insurance. Sixty percent, including 62 percent of independents and 46 percent of Republicans, said they would be willing to pay more in taxes. Half said they would be willing to pay as much as $500 a year more.
Nearly 8 in 10 said they thought it was more important to provide universal access to health insurance than to extend the tax cuts of recent years; 18 percent said the tax cuts were more important.
A quarter of those with insurance said someone in their household had gone without a medical test or treatment because insurance would not cover it.
One question offered a choice between the current system and a national health insurance program covering everyone, administered by the government and financed by taxpayers. Thirty-eight percent said they preferred the current system, 47 percent the government-run approach.
The Clinton plan, itself an attempt at a compromise, collapsed under attacks from an array of interests, including the insurance industry, which warned that the plan amounted to a big government takeover.
Mr. Blendon noted that many politicians were seeking a blend between the private market and the government in their health plans. http://www.tinyurl.com/2qxo7d
Posted by fromredbird at 03/12/2007 @ 11:53am
Fromredbird,
Did the article say for how long this lower net cost would last? In fact, where is the article? I'd like to read it. My own personal view as to how to solve the medical crisis is a little out of the mainstream, but I look at Universal Health as at least a second best method and certainly better than what is happening now, which is, slow, semi socialist strangulation that merely pays lip service to a free market system. Do you have a link?
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 03/12/2007 @ 12:09pm
Posted by CANAAR 03/12/2007 @ 07:41am
Where did I say "don't do it"?
Not much point in saying "do it" or "don't do it" really...it WILL happen, just like "universal health care".
The system is broke and we are DOOMED to it now.
Posted by Mask at 03/12/2007 @ 12:36pm
And I will pray for some of you completely nasty and mean-spirited freaks (MASK) who obviously get pleasure out of seeing people suffer.
Posted by AMYININDIANA 03/12/2007 @ 09:50am
Well, AMY, I'm an agnostic. So I guess I won't be praying for people who are hyperbolic demogogues who say "If you don't say something good about giving away 'free' stuff, you want people to be in PAIN!!!"
Posted by Mask at 03/12/2007 @ 12:39pm
"Sixty percent, including 62 percent of independents and 46 percent of Republicans, said they would be willing to pay more in taxes. Half said they would be willing to pay as much as $500 a year more. "
Who wouldn't be happy to get medical care for $ 500 more a year in taxes!!!!!! Premiums for a family of 4 is over $900 a MONTH...so another $ 500 a year and I'm coverd?
I gotta bridge I will sell you for, surprise, $ 500....and come back next year I'll sell you another one.
Posted by john maasch at 03/12/2007 @ 12:52pm
We must be kidding ourselves if we think we can improve healthcare in this country....no the only viable solution is to move to Dubai!!!
Posted by freedomplease at 03/12/2007 @ 1:01pm
Yes, it can take 3 hours to get anywhere if you have to rely on buses! And it's wonderful that Marquette has a free dental clinic, so do other dental schools - but how the hell do you get there? Everyone does not have a car, nor can everyone take a day off work to sit for hours on public transportation trying to get there - not to mention the repeat visits, etc. As for why teachers, social workers, etc did not notice bad breath? My sister had an infection in her tooth and did not have terrible breath and it took repeated visits to the dentist and an expensive antibiotic to eradicate it. Another problem is that these kinds of resources - even if available where you live - are not necessarily well known.
Posted by bisharry at 03/12/2007 @ 2:41pm
Driver's death has again drawn attention to how very few dentists are available to the poor and working class. In Maryland, for example, only 900 out of 5,500 dentists even accept Medicaid
This is the key line and KVH doesn't even do us the honor of examining why this is. She simply jumps right to the conclusion that socialized medicine is the answer. Typical, and wrong (IMHO, of course). Just think, government can't figure out how to run medicine when it only affects certain parts of the population, and people here want them (government) to handle things for the entire country. Brilliant.
BTW, this line also offers a little more insight into what health care workers think about government medicine.
Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 03/12/2007 @ 12:53pm
Part of the answer is right on the thread but the problem is that you don't want to hear or read anything about healthcare that doesn't support your perennial contention that the best healthcare system is one that serves only the well off and f*** the less well off:
"Under a 2006 federal law, the Deficit Reduction Act, most people who say they are United States citizens and want Medicaid must provide "satisfactory documentary evidence of citizenship," which could include a passport or the combination of a birth certificate and a driver's license.
Some state officials say the Bush administration went beyond the law in some ways, for example, by requiring people to submit original documents or copies certified by the issuing agency."
Medicaid isn't "government medicine". Medicaid is a healthcare program the powers that be are holding hostage and making inefficient in any manner they can imagine so they can use it as a poster child for rationalizing a system that serves only the more fortunate.
Posted by fromredbird at 03/12/2007 @ 6:34pm
The United States spends 16 percent of its gross domestic product on health care, more than twice the median among industrialized nations, said the fund's president, Karen Davis.
Yet only 49 percent of U.S. adults receive all recommended screening and preventative care, an indicator of health care quality, the scorecard said. Even among adults with year-round health insurance coverage, the percentage was 52 percent.
Similarly, the United States ranks 15th among 19 industrialized nations surveyed for medically preventable deaths. France, the leader in this category, has 75 deaths per 100,000 people compared with 115 in the United States.
The United States also has the highest rate of infant mortality among 23 nations studied for that indicator, with seven deaths for every 1,000 live births compared with a median level of 4.4.
"If we closed just those gaps that are described in the scorecard, we could save at least $50 billion to $100 billion per year in health care spending and prevent 100,000 to 150,000 deaths," the report stated.
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/15591260.htm (link expired)
Results of the simulation of a single-payer universal healthcare system in California:
The savings in administrative costs (about $20 billion in the first year) would help pay for both the uninsured and underinsured. The approximately 25% of healthcare costs that is spent on administration would be reduced to about 4% (similar to Medicare's administrative costs.) All components of administration would save significantly.
Businesses would realize an average savings of 16% compared to what they pay today. There is actually a wide range of savings among business, in part depending upon the number of employees.
"Under all of the plans here, there is an increase in costs, reflecting the fact that you'd have more insured people using more health services.... But ...under the single payer program, we show that there is a net reduction in spending. We actually spend less, in the aggregate, on health care. The reason for this is that there are very large administrative savings that are realized through using a simple, single program to pay for health care. There are also some bulk purchasing savings which we believe could be quite substantial."
- John Sheils, The Lewin Group. Concluding remarks on the micro-simulation of the nine health care reform proposals, Healthcare Options Symposium, Sacramento, April 12, 2002
Link [healthcareforall.org]
Half of health care spending is wasted, study finds [tinyurl.com]
Although delays and other problems have caused support to dip slightly, Canadians still overwhelmingly back their universal health program. They think of their health care system as a mark of their national identity, something that separates them from Americans.
Meanwhile, a recent ABC News poll showed that while Americans value the quality of U.S. health care, 62 percent think the nation should shift to a universal health insurance program like Canada's.
By many measures, Canadians are healthier than Americans, with a longer lifespan and lower infant mortality, even though they spend much less on medical care. Canadians devote about 10 percent of their gross domestic product, the total of a nation's goods and services, to provide full health coverage for all citizens. American health costs account for about 14 percent of GDP, yet 45 million Americans have no health insurance and many more have limited coverage.
One of the main culprits pushing up the cost of care in the United States is the expense of administering a plethora of complicated health plans. It has been estimated that any large health insurer in a midsize U.S. state spends more on administration than is spent on health administration in all Canada.
When it comes to billing, the Canadian system is a simple matter of sending an invoice to the Ministry of Health, which pays on a fee-for-service basis, she explained. In the United States, there are so many insurance companies, each with its own rules covering not only the patient but also the doctor -- as Kurosu learned when she had to wait months for an insurance company to approve her.
U.S. health insurers nickel and dime doctors by always sending bills back and questioning everything, she said. "It's like a game to see how long they can forestall payment."
France Health care as percentage of GDP: 9.6 Health expenditure per person: $2,567 Universal care funded through mandatory health insurance provided by Social Security, with private supplemental coverage filling gaps..
Germany Health care as percentage of GDP: 10.8 Health expenditure per person: $2,820 All individuals are enrolled in government-approved health insurance plans partly financed by employer and employee contributions, although high- income workers may buy private insurance instead..
Japan Health care as percentage of GDP: 8 Health expenditure per person: $2,131 A dual system in which workers enroll in insurance programs through their jobs, while all others join Japan's national health insurance plan..
United Kingdom Health care as percentage of GDP: 7.6 Health expenditure per person: $1,989 A publicly funded National Health Service provides free care, with the option of private insurance for those wanting treatment outside the state system..
United States Health care as percentage of GDP: 13.9 Health expenditure per person: $4,887 Federal and state governments pay most of the cost of care for seniors and the poor, with employer or individually financed insurance available for others. About 45 million people lack coverage.
*2001 figures Source: World Health Organization, Chronicle research
Many Americans still believe that the U.S. health-care system is the best in the world, and that its only major problems are that it costs too much and leaves too many people uninsured. But the fact remains that Americans live shorter lives, with more disabilities, than people in countries that spend barely half as much per person on health care. Pouring more money into the current system won't change that. Nor will making the current system even more fragmented and driven by short-term profit motives. But learning from the lesson offered by the veterans health system [tinyurl.com] could point the way to an all-American solution. Note: this is how a Democratic administration resuscitated Veterans healthcare after it was run into the ground by Reagan and the Republicans. They didn't want a public healthcare system to work because all Americans would realize that it could work just as well for them.
Paperwork is 21% of health costs . . . $26 billion goes to administration each year in state
-- About 34 percent of private health care spending in California each year goes to administrative costs.
-- Private insurers spend about 8 percent of premiums on billing.
Link [tinyurl.com]
Our inefficient healthcare system makes American businesses less competitive and creates an uneven playing field domestically:
"Clearly, the American industry has a disadvantage in terms of health care cost because in Japan and Europe, those costs are socialized," said Michael Flynn, director of the University of Michigan's Office for the Study of Automotive Transportation.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0502/10/A01-85815.htm
"Look at airlines," he said. "Old-time companies like United, Delta, American, Continental are competing against Southwest and JetBlue, which don't offer retiree health benefits, have much younger workforces and pay less. It's a huge competitive disadvantage."
http://tinyurl.com/3wo52
Supermarket owners said they had to reduce health care costs to remain competitive with nonunion chains such as Wal-Mart, which offer lesser or no benefits and have lower overall labor expenses.
"We have hundreds, maybe thousands, of employees whose spouses work for Wal-Mart. Ironically, they're relying on our health care, and they're pricing below us and they're taking our business," said Steve Burd, chief executive of Safeway, which is based in Pleasanton.
. . . employer-provided coverage is incompatible with a global economy in which goods and labor cross borders freely.
http://tinyurl.com/42ftc
Right-wingers argue that excessive government involvement and insufficiently developed market mechanisms are also at fault -- even though we have the least statist system in the First World, and health inflation has worsened since competition became official policy in the 1970s. When Canada adopted its publicly financed system in 1971, it and the U.S. both spent just over 7% of GDP on health care. By 1990, the U.S. was up to 12.3%, vs. Canada's 9%.
The causes of health inflation lie instead in the fragmentation of the U.S. system. Thousands of governments are involved, as are thousands more private insurers, providers, suppliers -- and, increasingly, auditors and consultants. One study, by Steffie Woolhandler and David Himmelstein, estimates that U.S. administrative costs are three to four times Canada's, and account for half the spending difference between the two. Canadian hospitals have practically no billing staffs, and since the provincial authorities are the only insurers, insurance overhead is minimal. Canada's health plans devote 0.9% of spending to overhead, compared to U.S. figures of 3.2% for Medicare and 12% for private insurers. Medicare's expenses are bloated by contracts with private insurers, who charge 7 times what it costs Canada to process claims.
But administrative costs are not the entire story. U.S. physicians earn 5.5 times the average salary, up from 4.5 in the late 1970s (despite an increase in the number of doctors per person), and well above Germany's 4 times, Canada's 3.5, and Japan's 2.5. And drug costs are higher here than elsewhere; national services drive a much harder bargain with producers than our fragmented providers can.
http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Paying-for-health.html
The United States has a health care system unique in the developed world. Costs are high, employers pay most of the bills and tens of millions have no coverage. Polls show that most Americans believe the system doesn't work and want universal coverage.
The United States spends nearly $5,000 per person on health care -- more than twice the amount of some other industrialized countries. But it's not making us live any longer. Canada, for example, spends about 60 percent less per person than the United States but has longer life expectancies.
Drugs represent the fastest growing part of the health care bill, with Americans paying the world's highest prices for medication. While the industry says it needs to charge high prices to finance research and development, the largest pharmaceutical companies in 2002 spent 14 percent of their revenues on research and development while devoting 31 percent to marketing and administration.
Doctors are becoming more aggressive in administering treatment. A study published in the August journal of Health Affairs found the top 15 medical conditions accounted for about half the overall growth in spending, with most of the costs associated with a rise in treatment rates rather than just the cost per treatment going up.
. . . hospital and medical group consolidations . . . have created powerful provider groups that can command higher reimbursements and all-or-nothing contracts from payers.
Link [tinyurl.com]
Also see: Link [pnhp.org] -and- Link [healthcareforall.org]
Posted by fromredbird at 03/12/2007 @ 6:38pm
PLAIN BRUCE, self-described physician, if you want to make your case about the horrific nature of "government healthcare" what you need to do is show us an example of a 12 year old homeless boy who died tragically due to an untreated molar infection which spread to his brain in some country with universal healthcare like, for example, France or Germany or even, horror of horrors, third-world Cuba.
Go ahead, show us some examples of children dying from lack of healthcare like here in the civilized USA.
Posted by fromredbird at 03/12/2007 @ 6:44pm
I saw that tragic story on the news, but as a nurse, I can you there's more to this story then meets the eye. The mother should have taken him to a children's hospital, not an adult hospital. They have dentists on call for cases like that, even there isn't a dental clinic in her neighborhood.
If she's on Medicaid, she has a host of resources available that could have helped her in that situation. She could have called the United Way and they would have directed her to a free clinic or dental school also the Salvation Army, her local church, Catholic Social Services, or the Department of Family and Children's Services were also available to the family.
IMO, every effort was not taken to get this boy proper medical attention.
Posted by ACook at 03/12/2007 @ 6:55pm
"Go ahead, show us some examples of children dying from lack of healthcare like here in the civilized USA."
Posted by FROMREDBIRD 03/12/2007 @ 6:44pm
FRB, a lot children do die from lack of proper healthcare in Europe, they simply choose not to talk it. BTW, the Driver family is not homeless....just ignorant.
Also, they don't have good dental hygiene over there either. They have a higher incidence of gum disease then we do. You can find the reviews in the ADA, American Journal of Medicine, the British Dental Journal, and the International Journal of Dental Hygiene.
Posted by ACook at 03/12/2007 @ 7:10pm
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 03/11/2007 @ 7:59pm
"frigging wanker" is about all I can think to respond to such crap
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 03/11/2007 @ 8:05pm
The very reason we need universal health care
ALL - and especially Chip
This happens all too commonly - when I used to live in HI I know of just such a case. Welfare recipient couldn't get an oral surgeon until the whole side of his head swelled up....they tried to drain but it was too late (and no JM...he wasn't a crack-head, or alcoholic, or wearing $200 Nikes...) He just simply could not afford to be ill in America.
Posted by ACOOK 03/12/2007 @ 6:55pm
You have obviously never been "really poor" - often they do not even know where to go. They usually get bounced around to various free clinics and if they are lucky, wind up in a real hospital. However, generally folks with a bad tooth are steered away from hospitals...unless its a trauma.
Posted by leftofcenter at 03/12/2007 @ 7:25pm
Posted by ACOOK 03/12/2007 @ 6:55pm
"You have obviously never been "really poor" - often they do not even know where to go. They usually get bounced around to various free clinics and if they are lucky, wind up in a real hospital. However, generally folks with a bad tooth are steered away from hospitals...unless its a trauma."
Posted by LEFTOFCENTER 03/12/2007 @ 7:25pm
LOC, yes I did grow up poor. My family didn't have the money for dental care, (especially with 12 children) but there were free clinics we could go to. And IMO, had Ms. Driver taken her son to a children's hospital, we wouldn't have discussion.
Posted by ACook at 03/12/2007 @ 8:10pm
they should write a country music song about you.
(it'll give the robots something to line dance too)
Posted by Will C. at 03/12/2007 @ 10:28pm
I gotta bridge I will sell you for, surprise, $ 500....and come back next year I'll sell you another one.
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 03/12/2007 @ 12:52pm
But if you sell the bridge how will everything you hear travel in one ear and out the other?
Posted by Will C. at 03/12/2007 @ 10:31pm
Go ahead, show us some examples of children dying from lack of healthcare like here in the civilized USA.
Posted by FROMREDBIRD 03/12/2007 @ 6:44pm
3-4 summers ago when thousands died in France from the heat. It was the peak of the "holiday" season when the medical community was understaffed.
Posted by Sliver at 03/12/2007 @ 10:34pm
3-4 summers ago when thousands died in France from the heat. It was the peak of the "holiday" season when the medical community was understaffed.
Posted by SLIVER 03/12/2007 @ 10:34pm
ha ha ha ha
if you read or even understood what you yourself just wrote you might have noticed and perhaps even grasped that it was heat and not the lack of health care that killed the people in france.
Posted by Will C. at 03/12/2007 @ 10:41pm
Will C. So neglect doesn't kill people, heat kills people...now I get it..I feel so smart seeing things the way you do.....
Posted by davebarlett at 03/12/2007 @ 11:42pm
any other insights for us????
Posted by davebarlett at 03/12/2007 @ 11:43pm
You really ought to read the Washington Post article before you comment, Mr. Maasch. It's very clear that the mother is not to blame. When she was told to wait from Oct 5 until Jan 18 - 4 months - before seeing an oral surgeon, because that was the first available appointment -
Posted by MADDOX
Maddox, sounds like our worst fears about socialized medicine are encapsulated right here..no doubt this was a government, or free clinic, which will also no doubt be sued the hell out of..........KAT?
Posted by davebarlett at 03/12/2007 @ 11:52pm
Will C. So neglect doesn't kill people, heat kills people...now I get it..I feel so smart seeing things the way you do.....
Posted by DAVEBARLETT 03/12/2007 @ 11:42pm
We'll let's see. The neglect you suffered as a child didn't kill you. Instead it turned you into the amazing hamsterman.
maybe it's time to try heat?
Posted by Will C. at 03/13/2007 @ 12:10am
any other insights for us????
Posted by DAVEBARLETT 03/12/2007 @ 11:43pm
wouldn't they be lost on you
Posted by Will C. at 03/13/2007 @ 12:12am
3-4 summers ago when thousands died in France from the heat. It was the peak of the "holiday" season when the medical community was understaffed.
Posted by SLIVER 03/12/2007 @ 10:34pm
Oh, damn! Thanks, Will, I have way too many posters on my ignore list. SLIVER just pointed out how backward France was compared to the USA. They have to have a heat wave to kill children. We don't need any friggin' heat wave - we have moral indifference and studiously applied neglect.
Posted by fromredbird at 03/13/2007 @ 01:47am
DAVEBARLETT DID HIT THE BEST ONE OUT OF THE PARK..AND I HOPE OUR FRIEND..
"LEFT OF CENTER WANKER" OF "WE NEED UNIVERESAL HEALTH CARE NOW"
HAD A CHANCE TO LOOK AT THE RESPONSE FROM FELLOW GENIUS, MADDOX..
"Maddox, sounds like our worst fears about socialized medicine are encapsulated right here..no doubt this was a government, or free clinic, which will also no doubt be sued the hell out of..........KAT?
"SUCCINTLY BRILLANT OBSERVATION"..
THE VERY THING THAT DRIVES CANADIAN PATIENTS INTO MY FAMILYS DR OFFICE IN WISCONSIN AND MINNESOTA...
A PREVIEW OF WHAT THE IDIOTS ON THE LEFT HAVE IN STORE FOR ALL US DUMB ENOUGH TO ACCEPT IT OR NOT FIGURE AWAY AROUND IT..
btw, Does ""LEFT OF CENTER WANKER" mean you curve left? I am sure there is a govt program to fix that for you.
Posted by john maasch at 03/13/2007 @ 03:23am
A 12 year old child dies of a tooth infection and most commentators seem to think that this is acceptable. Excuse me for being a European, but the lack of health care is only one thing that shocked me in this article. A 12 year old child is homeless? His mother has had a series of jobs, it is possible for someone to work and still be homeless? In the richest nation in the world?
Posted by sior at 03/13/2007 @ 04:59am
if you read or even understood what you yourself just wrote you might have noticed and perhaps even grasped that it was heat and not the lack of health care that killed the people in france.
Will...where do the people in your trailer park go for heat stroke, heat exhaustion, and dehydration? Dairy Queen?
Alot of folks that died that summer in France were already in nursing homes and medical facilities. We get plenty of heat waves here, but none that kill thousands.
Posted by Sliver at 03/13/2007 @ 06:19am
USA Today 8/14/03
Find a forecast:
Posted 8/14/2003 6:43 AM Updated 8/14/2003 8:46 PM
Advertisement Today's Top Weather Stories
• Nation's weather: Warmer in the East; storms for Texas and Mississippi Valley - 7:32 AM • Two killed after flooding in San Antonio area - 4:19 PM • Melting snow causes dangers for farmers - 11:04 AM • Strong storms move across Texas - 8:14 AM • Farmer says tornado blew check to Ga. - 3:53 PM • Add USATODAY.com RSS feeds Add USATODAY.com RSS feeds
French health officials: Heat wave kills about 3,000 PARIS (AP) -- France's worst heat wave on record has killed an estimated 3,000 people across the nation, the Health Ministry said Thursday, as the government faced accusations that it failed to respond to a major health crisis. (Related photos: Europe's heat wave)
It was the government's first official death toll estimate. After days of complaints about the slow government response, the government on Wednesday launched crisis management measures usually reserved for epidemics, terror attacks and catastrophes.
With many families gone on vacation, "there are a lot of elderly people alone in big cities in August," said health ministry spokeswoman Laurence Danand.
Danand said an exact figure would be released next week on the number of heat-related deaths, based on a survey of all private and public medical institutions, including retirement homes.
Under the crisis measures enacted Wednesday, hospitals in Paris mobilized a large number of beds to treat victims and called back health care workers from their vacations.
Critics said it amounted to too little, too late. One hospital official faulted the government for failing to act on warning signals from doctors in late July and early August.
"We said, 'Watch out, something's happening. There are a lot of people arriving' -- but no one listened," said Patrick Pelloux, head of France's emergency physicians' association, on Europe-1 radio.
Record-high temperatures have been set in numerous cities across France, and the capital has baked under heat at or exceeding 98 degrees.
98 degrees?? That's like 4 months of every year in Texas. We see that in Ohio 4-5 days ever year.
The lesson: Nobody bothered to take action because they relied on the government to do it. The only problem was, they were on vacation too.
Posted by Sliver at 03/13/2007 @ 06:59am
Quite a lot could be said about the heat wave in France. I believe it needs to be pointed out that heat waves were very uncommon in Europe before the recent effects of global warming made themselves felt. Most places there don't even have air conditioning. The weather was predictably cool and rainy all the time. Not anymore.
It seems that "Maasch" and others from the "universal healthcare is evil" crowd have put "FromRedBird" on their "ignore" list. So many facts, and they don't even blink. Greetings and many thanks also to "Sior."
Posted by JakobFabian at 03/13/2007 @ 08:20am
Ah, I never grow tired of reading and hearing all the wrong-winged bullshit. Oh, the horrors of health care for all! As long as you and yours are covered, to hell with the 47M who aren't, right?
Oh yes, I almost forgot--just go to am emergency room like all the illegals, right? Sure, that will get you proper health care. And of course they don't mind when you drop by with non-life-threatening conditions. No, not at all. It really is as good as being a "FTW" wrong-winger with posh health care coverage. No shit, stop laughing, it is!
Then we have this:
Let's face it: the US government is dominated by people who are the rich, and are for the rich... --ZERO
How do you justify this conclusion?--THRAWN
Are you serious? I'm guessing s/he justifies it by simply being awake in 2007's United States of America. You know, how every candidate for high public office is corporate funded, how bribery is legalized under the guise of "lobbying"...all that silly, imaginary shit the wrong-wingers love so much.
Posted by Left is Right at 03/13/2007 @ 11:33am
OK...if we want to talk lobbying and campaign funding, check this one out http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110009776
(Didn't want to RESE the place up by posting the entire article.)
Posted by Sliver at 03/13/2007 @ 11:51am
Posted by ACOOK 03/12/2007 @ 8:10pm
I don't know where the nearest children's hospital was in this child's area, but in my own neighborhood its 2 hours away. While unsure, I feel farily confident that this persons money situation probably means that transportation could have been an issue, probably knowledge of what to do might have been an issue. I can only assume that as the parent was waiting for an appt (months away) that they were following telephone instructions from the dental office. As to "free clinics"....I must assume they are few and far between because I haven't seen one in years. I went to one once...they looked at my teeth and poked around. Told me I had a periapical cyst and that I should schedule an appt with an oral surgeon. (The free clinic wasn't equipped to do such things) Could this have been an issue as well? I don't know...and neither do you.
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 03/13/2007 @ 03:23am
Have you and DAVEBARTLETT gotten a room so we don't have to see your wanton grab-assing? I was trying to be somewhat tasteful in insulting your loads of crap. I shouldn't have thought to spare the list of what is deserved to you. So ... you and the rest of your mindless cretins should crawl back under whatever rock you came from.
As to your "OUT OF THE PARK...SUCCINTLY BRILLANT OBSERVATION" drivel....its just that...mindless drivel.
...and still no sensible response to the fact that we are the only industrialized nation without universal healthcare, and we have the statistics to show for it. The United States is:
#3 in public and #1 in private healthcare $dollar per capita and #1 in overall health related spending
#29 in Healthy life expectancy at birth (right behind Slovenia)
#27 in pharmaceutical drug access, a 30.6% obesity rate, #40 in infant mortality, #31 in expected overall lifespan
(stats courtesy of Nationmaster.com)
Posted by SIOR 03/13/2007 @ 04:59am
Didn't you hear...the mindless Neocon mantra is that its their own fault. If they were really worthwhile, they'd be rich and it wouldn't be an issue. In fact, I think they believe taht every should be rich. Gotta wonder how the economics of that would work....
Posted by leftofcenter at 03/13/2007 @ 12:10pm
Posted 8/14/2003 6:43 AM Updated 8/14/2003 8:46 PM
Advertisement Today's Top Weather Stories
• Nation's weather: Warmer in the East; storms for Texas and Mississippi Valley - 7:32 AM • Two killed after flooding in San Antonio area - 4:19 PM • Melting snow causes dangers for farmers - 11:04 AM • Strong storms move across Texas - 8:14 AM • Farmer says tornado blew check to Ga. - 3:53 PM • Add USATODAY.com RSS feeds Add USATODAY.com RSS feeds
Record-high temperatures have been set in numerous cities across France, and the capital has baked under heat at or exceeding 98 degrees.
Posted by SLIVER 03/13/2007 @ 06:59am
Gee Sliver, hope you're not a climate change denier. Your post sounds a lot like Al Gore.
Posted by bjkron at 03/13/2007 @ 12:30pm
BJ
For shame....you know that this whole "global warming nonsense" is just a political ploy. I'm betting its the polar bears who are doing it.....trying to get federal assistance no doubt. Worthless hairy ursids.
Posted by leftofcenter at 03/13/2007 @ 1:03pm
For me, this provides another view and I believe BOTH this and ALGORES movie should be viewed side by side and OPENLY AND PUBLICLY debated..
The Great Global Warming Swindle
1 hr 16 min - Mar 9, 2007 - (3390 ratings)
... But just as the environmental lobby think they've got our attention, a group of naysayers have emerged to slay the whole premise of global warming.
It is interesting.
Posted by john maasch at 03/13/2007 @ 1:49pm
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 03/13/2007 @ 1:49pm
6 guys with tin foil hats?
Posted by leftofcenter at 03/13/2007 @ 2:41pm
...the "a group of naysayers" that is
Posted by leftofcenter at 03/13/2007 @ 2:41pm
PB
obesity certainly is a health issue, yes? As to the infant mortality, if we have the best shouldn't we be a helluva lot closer to #1 regardless? (I am somewhat unimpressed with the logic against live births being defined as a child that breathes - actually sounds pretty reasonable to me.)
The point being of course, that we hem and haw over the idea of universal health care, and it is pretty clear that nations with universal health care are, by and large, healthier.
Howzabout we just discuss lifespans then....?
Posted by leftofcenter at 03/13/2007 @ 3:38pm
Under our present 'system,' primary care is under reimbursed, forcing care providers to double and triple book schedules just to make ends meet in their practices. Lack of acute visit appointments forces people with non-emergency problems into energency departments, where care is extremely expensive.
Have you been talking to my primary care doctor, Skeletonman? Every time, and I do mean every time, I go into his office for one of my diabetes maintenance visits, he says almost exactly the same thing to me and tries to pitch it to me as a possible story.
And it's a story that I might have written had he not come really close to sending my 83-year-old mother home with a broken collarbone and six cracked ribs because he didn't feel that she needed an x-ray after falling down the stairs.
Now, he and I are about to have a "Come to Jesus" meeting, only he doesn't know it yet.
Posted by edwriter at 03/13/2007 @ 4:17pm
I find it so sad to read the posts on this site, the repetitive, mindless regurgitation of nonsense makes me ill. A 12 yr old dies from a completely preventable death and all you can say is "was he wearing Air Jordan's"? The depth of that callousness takes me aback. But I can see the hypocrisy and ignorance in this. How can the Right be for family values, Judeo-Christian morals and still profit a view like this? What is more anti-family than child dying that didn't need to?
If Jesus saw a child die from a infected tooth do you think he would have asked what kind of shoes his Mother bought him?
Posted by TheCraftyB at 03/13/2007 @ 5:25pm
the infant mortality rate is an example of the old saying about statistics. Were you aware that there is a difference in what is considered a "live birth?" (the definition is integral to determining infant mortality rate). Some countries don't count it as a live birth if the baby lives less than 24 hours. Some don't count it if a baby dies and is less than a certain size or gestational age. The US uses the definition of live birth as any baby that is born alive, regardless of size, lifespan, etc. Hence, our statistics tend to look worse.
Check "infant mortality rate" on Wikipedia, which discusses the magic of this statistic.
Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 03/13/2007 @ 3:10pm
So, if those were adjusted the US would move from "#29 in Healthy life expectancy at birth (right behind Slovenia)" and "#40 in infant mortality" up to #1?
There's the answer! The babies aren't really dying! It's all a myth!
Posted by fromredbird at 03/13/2007 @ 6:28pm
If Jesus saw a child die from a infected tooth do you think he would have asked what kind of shoes his Mother bought him?
Posted by THECRAFTYB 03/13/2007 @ 5:25pm
This is an illustration of the actual extreme sociopathy of almost all of the Republican boosters posting here. Their unspoken attitudes are undoubtedly worlds worse and would make them pariahs even in their own party. I think it's laughable when some "liberal" gripes that I'm mean to them.
Posted by fromredbird at 03/13/2007 @ 6:33pm
Not to mention the likely reality that the child had footwear far from anything even remotely resembling Air Jordans.
As Solzhenitsyn said, "People who are warm don't understand people who are cold."
Posted by fromredbird at 03/13/2007 @ 6:35pm
Posted by SLIVER 03/13/2007 @ 06:19am
Will...where do the people in your trailer park go for heat stroke, heat exhaustion, and dehydration? Dairy Queen?
I don't live in a trailer park hamster boy. This means you are remarkably stupid today. Here let me demonstrate. Dehydration and heat exhaustion? Dairy queen is an excellent place to go. Get yourself a nice cold misty slush. or better yet, a big cup of ice water. Heat stroke is a little different story. For that you need a bath tub full of cold water and at least one person to keep your head above water, two or more to get you in and then two or more to get you out. And that's assuming it's only you they have to worry about. You can quickly run out of manpower and bathtubs if there are more in line behind you.
lot of folks that died that summer in France were already in nursing homes and medical facilities. We get plenty of heat waves here, but none that kill thousands.
A lot of folks eh? Since you are going out of your way to be specific, that also means a lot of folks weren't in medical facilities or nursing homes. But no matter. France also has a mild climate just like we do on the west coast. This means there is less air conditioning than there is throughout most of the rest of this country. A freak heat wave, the typical rapid onset of heat stroke coupled with the fact that it renders its victims unconscious means they are not calling out for help and they can be dead before anyone even knows they are in trouble.
The same thing happens in our country in homes that lack air conditioning every summer and we have one of the most technologically advanced health care systems in the world. But in our country you hamsters blame the victims and not the health care system
That's the difference
Posted by Will C. at 03/13/2007 @ 7:30pm
Posted by SLIVER 03/13/2007 @ 06:19am
. . . squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak . . .
Scurrying faster adds no value to your life and thought.
Posted by fromredbird at 03/13/2007 @ 9:31pm
Reb & WillC
You mean like this Sque aky wheel
Posted by leftofcenter at 03/13/2007 @ 9:46pm
What is more anti-family than child dying that didn't need to?
If Jesus saw a child die from a infected tooth do you think he would have asked what kind of shoes his Mother bought him?
Posted by THECRAFTYB 03/13/2007 @ 5:25pm
Curious....what's your stance on abortion??
Gee Sliver, hope you're not a climate change denier. Your post sounds a lot like Al Gore.
Posted by BJKRON 03/13/2007 @ 12:30pm
Not at all. I happen to live about 25 miles south of a constant reminder that this place used to be much colder. It's called Lake Erie...ever hear of it?? It's been here much longer than cars, electricity, or any sort of industrialization. Or perhaps people, for that matter.
Posted by Sliver at 03/13/2007 @ 9:47pm
Will...try carrots. They like carrots.
Posted by Sliver at 03/13/2007 @ 9:50pm
Will...try carrots. They like carrots.
Posted by SLIVER 03/13/2007 @ 9:50pm
OK... Want a carrot?
Posted by Will C. at 03/13/2007 @ 10:55pm
Should you come up with a substantive thought, I'll be happy to respond to it.
Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 03/13/2007 @ 10:15pm
If you don't know how the numbers have to be altered so that the results generate an accurate comparison or have any idea of how these new results would affect US placement in the world, then you own posts lack substance.
Maybe that's why redbird is having a difficult time giving you a substantive response
Posted by Will C. at 03/13/2007 @ 11:01pm
PB
No, I understand just fine....agreed there is some uncertainty in the mishmash of stats (like they say...lies, damned lies, and statistics) However, the stats (one or the other) indicates that we are a far cry from #1 in at least several fundamental health-related respects.
Like I said a bit further on....lets use a more neutral comparator: let's get rid of the two you find fault with and try again....
#29 in Healthy life expectancy at birth (right behind Slovenia), #27 in pharmaceutical drug access, #31 in expected overall lifespan
Your turn....
Posted by leftofcenter at 03/13/2007 @ 11:22pm
I normally just ignore your posts, but this was funny.
Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 03/13/2007 @ 11:46pm
So you sold your bridge. Excellent technique for preventing traffic between the ears.
Posted by Will C. at 03/14/2007 @ 07:58am
Sounds like there are many other physicians there who are dissatisfied with the situation.
Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 03/13/2007 @ 11:46pm
Come on bruce. Unable to get your stats strait you jump into the standard hamster hole of "many".
That's not substance
Posted by Will C. at 03/14/2007 @ 08:04am
PLAIN BRUCE, the substantive responses of others to your insubstantive sand-throwing have been adequate. Suffice it to say that the last resort of those not supported by the facts is invariably to dispute the validity of the data while failing to produce any of their own.
In any case, you are the one who has no substantive response after that bodacious, nearly RESE-like post on healthcare that I uploaded.
Posted by fromredbird at 03/14/2007 @ 11:12am
FRB:
Almost forgot. On the last thread, you thought it dubious that I had a colleague in Germany who was unhappy with their system and wanted one more market-based. You may be interested in this link:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1934995,00.html?maca=en
Sounds like there are many other physicians there who are dissatisfied with the situation.
Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 03/13/2007 @ 11:46pm
I doubt that I expressed any disbelief there were such a person. I probably expressed disbelief that this one person meant Germans preferred the American non-system to what they had.
In any case, in reference to your doctor's strike story- when the UAW goes on strike does that mean horses are better than cars? I think not.
Posted by fromredbird at 03/14/2007 @ 11:19am
I can't recall if I've discussed this with you or JR so I apologize if I sound like a broken record, but a nation's health statistics are not necessarily a reflection of it's health care system, but more likely it's overall health habits.
Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 03/13/2007 @ 11:19pm
Do you consider 45 million Americans with NO HEALTHCARE a bad habit?
Posted by fromredbird at 03/14/2007 @ 11:23am
PLAIN BRUCE'S reference for infant mortality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality_rate
184 United States 6.50 185 Taiwan (Republic of China) 6.40 186 Cuba 6.33 187 Korea, South 6.28 188 Faroe Islands 6.24 189 Italy 5.94 190 Man, Isle of 5.93 191 Aruba 5.89 192 New Zealand 5.85 193 San Marino 5.73 194 Greece 5.53 195 Monaco 5.43 196 Ireland 5.39 197 Jersey 5.24 198 United Kingdom 5.16 199 Gibraltar 5.13 200 European Union 5.10 201 Portugal 5.05 202 Netherlands 5.04 203 Luxembourg 4.81 204 Canada 4.75 205 Guernsey 4.71 206 Liechtenstein 4.70 207 Australia 4.69 208 Belgium 4.68 209 Denmark 4.56 210 Slovenia 4.45 211 Spain 4.42 212 Switzerland 4.39 213 Macau 4.37 214 France 4.26 215 Austria 4.18 216 Andorra 4.05 217 Germany 3.93 218 Czech Republic 3.93 219 Malta 3.89 220 Norway 3.10 221 Finland 3.00 222 Japan 2.80 223 Sweden 2.43 224 Hong Kong 2.40 225 Iceland 2.34 226 Singapore 2.10
A well documented example illustrates this problem. Historically, until the 1990's Russia and the Soviet Union did not count as a live birth or as an infant death extremely premature infants (less than 1,000 g., less than 28 weeks gestational age, or less than 35 cm in length) that were born alive (breathed, had a heartbeat, or exhibited voluntary muscle movement) but failed to survive for at least 7 days.[2] Although such extremely premature infants typically accounted for only about .005 of all live-born children, their exclusion from both the numerator and the denominator in the reported IMR led to an estimated 22-25% lower reported IMR.[3]
If we assume, which is a big assumption, that the US IMR could be accurately adjusted for purposes of comparison to 75% of the reported IMR, then the US would still fall between the Netherlands and Luxembourg, substantially behind about twenty countries that are less economically powerful than the US. The data also indicate that this is in spite of the fact that we spend more per capita for healthcare than a lot of, if not all of, these other countries. Keep in mind that this ignores the possibility that other countries might also have an even lower IMR if their reporting procedures were altered in the same manner.
In any case, it's plain that some Americans are getting good healthcare and others are being left to die.
Posted by fromredbird at 03/14/2007 @ 11:45am
By the way, PLAIN BRUCE, are you maintaining that Germans are fed up with their 3.93 deaths per thousand live births and live in envy of America's 6.50 -or- 4.875 deaths per thousand live births?
Posted by fromredbird at 03/14/2007 @ 11:49am
PB
#29 in Healthy life expectancy at birth (right behind Slovenia), #27 in pharmaceutical drug access?
Getting more difficult to obfuscate?
As to the obesity idea....you are right, it not the fault of the healthcare industry, but it is, in large part addressable by it. We seem to be stuck in this overpriced, insurance-bureaucracy-bloated, reactive healthcare paradigm. Howzabout if we had a more pro-active healthcare scenario. Where someone notices their belt is a bit tight and instead of failing 5 or 6 fad diets, is able to walk into a dietician/nutrionist/lifestyle therapist and get some specific advise.
Not everyone is able to eat a "doo-blay chez" and stay healthy-ish. I like many Americans, am a type2 diabetic. I eat healthier, and exercise more, than much of the population, but it does little good as my metabolism is broken. (well, seriously fucked up is perhaps more accurate) Of course, in a reactive scenario, all I can hope for is to be able to afford the right pills to keep me from dying (which I can only get on the gray market from non-US manufacturers, as Actos is so overpriced as to be ridiculous) - no pharmacy benefits at either PT job dontcha know
But on the up side, having multiple PT jobs counts as job growth in a Bush-whacked world!
Is universal healthcare "THE" answer....perhaps not, but it is certainly a better answer than what we have, and I sold think any sane person would agree.
Posted by leftofcenter at 03/14/2007 @ 12:28pm
ooops...spell check...."should" in last line
Posted by leftofcenter at 03/14/2007 @ 12:30pm
Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 03/14/2007 @ 12:59pm
Actually PB, I've always lead a reasonably healthy lifestyle...but yes, I did become MORE aware afterwards (threat of death will do that.) I've been a "semi-vegetarian" since high school, and big on whole grains, fresh fruits & veg - and even back when, my fast-food consumption was a mere fraction of most folks'.
I will toss back, that if we had more proactive healthcare, perhaps I could have staved off the big T2D for a bit, but it is likely a genetic predisposition. (My inability to metabolize metformin is likely an indicator of fundamental metabolic quirks)
Maybe if the costs of healthcare premium was linked to...oh, I dunno, being healthy, then a more market-oriented universal system could be approached. However, health insurance for profit is always doomed to fail as it is banking on the A) healthy people not using services and B)deaths of unhealthy payees to reduce outlay.
As to your "no liberals want to pay for" line....crap and obfuscation. Remember, we're liberal...we LOVE to spend money, right?
Posted by leftofcenter at 03/14/2007 @ 3:22pm
Agree with most of what you say. You know my thoughts on the current system-it's horrid. You and I disagree on which way to turn next.
Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 03/14/2007 @ 5:08pm
how about a system that put's more dollars into health care with greater efficiency.
For example a single payer system of health insurance administered by government of the people with lock box protections and invested in the US economy through a stock index fund owned by the people and operated by the treasury department with strong congressional oversight.
Posted by Will C. at 03/14/2007 @ 11:18pm
Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 03/15/2007 @ 12:06am
Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 03/15/2007 @ 12:19am
I see no need to respond to these numerous assertions when you have supplied absolutely no reference to supporting data or information.
Posted by fromredbird at 03/15/2007 @ 11:17am
FRB:
U.S. physicians earn 5.5 times the average salary, up from 4.5 in the late 1970s (despite an increase in the number of doctors per person), and well above Germany's 4 times, Canada's 3.5, and Japan's 2.5.
I refer you back to my earlier link that discussed German physicians' strike over poor reimbursement and overworked conditions.
I also posed this question to you last time: do you know of any American physicians that would take a 30% pay cut? 20%? 10%? Before answering, remember that doctors here nearly had a collective aneurysm over a possible "piddly" 5% decrease in Medicare reimbursement for 2007. (Just for fun, watch the fit hit the shan later this year when Congress tries to pass a scheduled 10% decrease for 2008.)
Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 03/15/2007 @ 12:34am
If the point you're trying to make is that US physicians prefer to make more money relative to the average person, even in a country that is wealthier than others, than any other physicians in the world relative to the average person, well, I don't feel any great need to disagree with you.
I was talking to a plumber the other day who thinks he should be making eight times more than the average person. By your reasoning that would mean he's an oppressed individual.
I would like you to explain, however, if Medicare reimbursements are so parsimonious how do these American physicians manage to make 5.5 times the average salary?
Posted by fromredbird at 03/15/2007 @ 11:23am
Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 03/15/2007 @ 12:34am
Maybe the cut wouldn't feel as deep if lots of those pesky malpractice insurance premiums went away....along with the majority of the current helath insurance industry. (When universal health care happens, they can come work for that new bureaucracy funded by what used to be insurance premiums feeding company CEOs, now diverted to....wait for it....healthcare costs!)
Posted by leftofcenter at 03/15/2007 @ 12:04pm
PB
I should hope with a centralized system all the "potatoes" would be more or less the same size (to use your metaphor)...but as a preface to your rationale, what $$ portion (do you suppose) stuff like malpractice takes out of Drs. pockets? After all, it likely isn't on your list as it is a present cost of business that is passed on to the patients?
As to the "red tape"...I would posit with the present "Babylon" of insurance crap, that it is now not just red tape, but a rainbow of color and pattern. At least with a single-payer system it would be *just* red tape (we prefer to call it "ribbons" ...to wrap our potatoes!)
Posted by leftofcenter at 03/16/2007 @ 11:17am