Buzzflash
del.icio.us
Digg
Facebook
Mixx it!
RedditCharles Jackson, media coordinator for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), was anxious last week as today's anniversary of Hurricane Katrina approached. The city had declared that on this day it would seize whatever homes had not yet been cleaned-up or reclaimed in order to resell and/or demolish them – without even notifying the former residents.
"We are trying to get the deadline extended to November," Jackson said. "Why hit people with another act of devastation on the anniversary? How about a little compassion?"
But compassion has been in as short supply as clean water in the Lower 9th Ward over the last year. ACORN had 9,000 member families in New Orleans when Katrina hit, and one year later 7,500 have not yet returned. It looked as though they might not have homes to return to at all.
However, yesterday marked a small victory for ACORN. The New Orleans City Council amended its seizure order so that residents with homes scheduled for gutting and cleaning by ACORN (or 15 other groups) will be deemed in compliance (it should be noted that the city is not providing any funds to groups like ACORN for this vital work). For homes not yet scheduled for clean-up, the city will attempt to contact the owners twice in 60 days before proceeding to take possession of the property. Jackson says that ACORN didn't get everything it wanted with this compromise but at least it stopped the bulldozers for now.
"We had already fought to get the anniversary deadline amended so that the Lower 9th residents and the elderly were exempted due to hardship," Jackson says. "But what about New Orleans East and other parts of the city? We've literally got neighborhoods with thousands of homes where we've been able to get, maybe, one family back. Lower-income families can't even afford the transportation to come back here. Now at least we've gained a little more protection for struggling families we are working with."
The work to protect homeowners, tenants and neighborhoods began in the immediate aftermath of the disaster when Mayor Ray Nagin announced that the city would demolish approximately 50,000 homes in the wake of the flooding. In December, the city was set to bulldoze the first 2,500 homes when ACORN members won a settlement requiring that homeowners be notified and given the opportunity to appeal before any action is taken.
That same month, ACORN launched its "Home Clean-Out Demonstration Program" to handle the work that the government is still failing to do. ACORN crews clean out debris, gut the interior of homes, eradicate mold and provide roof repair free of charge (ACORN spends an average of $2,500 per home). Without this remediation, many of the homes would deteriorate beyond repair. Which, perhaps, is exactly the result being hoped for by some power elites in the city.
As of August 1, ACORN crews had cleaned and gutted 1,450 homes. There are more than 1,000 homes on the waiting list. More than 5,000 volunteers have helped with the project, including students on spring break, and workers from the AFL-CIO, and the Canadian Autoworkers Union.
"At the program's peak we were gutting hundreds of homes per week," Jackson says. "Now that's down to maybe 20-30 homes per week. Volunteers can't afford the skyrocketing hotel prices and FEMA closed Camp Algiers in July."
Camp Algiers housed volunteers in town to help with the cleanup and rebuilding efforts, so it was a vital resource for groups like ACORN, Catholic Charities, Common Ground, and Habitat for Humanity. But a cut in funding has shut the camp down.
"We're hopeful though that with the anniversary, and the Spike Lee documentary, people will refocus their efforts to get down here, support our work financially, do whatever they can to help New Orleans come back," Jackson says.
In addition to the clean-up work, ACORN has gained a place at the table for long-term planning efforts. Not surprisingly, it looked early on as if low- and middle-income families would be shut out of the process. The Mayor's "Bring New Orleans Back Commission" proposed to direct resources first to the areas that received little or no flood damage. Other neighborhoods had from January to May to "prove their viability."
Jimmy Reiss, a member of the Commission articulated ACORN members' worst nightmare when he said: "Those who want to see the city rebuilt want to see it done in a completely different way: demographically, geographically, and politically."
ACORN didn't wait for more bad news. Instead it met with city planning partners from Cornell University, the Pratt Institute, and Louisiana State University to solicit input on rebuilding. The organization also held community meetings with displaced New Orleanians in the cities where they were currently relocated. This collaborative effort produced detailed plans for the neighborhoods of the Lower 9th Ward and New Orleans East. On July 21st ACORN Housing was recognized as one of 16 "official" New Orleans planning teams. The planning teams will submit neighborhood plans to the Mayor and City Council and – upon approval – will be part of the Unified New Orleans Plan" to direct resources for rebuilding as well as serving as the city's long-term vision.
Jackson says this victory cannot be overstated: "It means the people's voices are being heard." And none too soon, either.
According to the Institute for Southern Studies, as of June 30 only 37 percent of New Orleans pre-storm population of 460,000 had returned; no federal funds had been dispersed to rebuild homes – zero; and the New Orleans suicide rate had increased 300 percent since the hurricane.
"We are committed to staying here until the job is done," Jackson says. "But we're also trying to get the word out: 1 year later, all is not well here."
The small victories of ACORN and its allies have been hard-earned. As Chris Kromm writes in this week's issue of The Nation, "Ask Gulf activists what it will take to turn around the region's fortunes, and many will come back to the idea that the Katrina movement must go national – even international." Regarding the international perspective, the Institute for Southern Studies indicates that legal scholars believe that 16 of the 30 UN Principles guiding the handling of "Internally Displaced People" were violated in the case of Katrina.
To help ensure that the suffering of Katrina victims is not compounded by greed and opportunism, there are actions you can take: Contribute financially or Adopt a Home; volunteer with the Home Clean-out Demonstration Program; or contact your federal representatives via the ACORN Legislation Action Hotline at 800-643-9557.
One year after the initial devastation, be a part of the movement to demand that the rebuilding of New Orleans is undertaken in accord with our greatest democratic principles.
Share this article
Katrina vanden Heuvel
Thoughts on politics, current affairs, riffs and reflections on what’s in the news and what’s not--but should be.
RSS
"The city had declared that on this day it would..."
That would be MAYOR NAGIN and friends, right? (yes, noted above as well).
Yet, Nagin has been given a "pass" on any responsibility DURING "Katrina"....is he "guilty" in its aftermath?
Posted by Mask at 08/29/2006 @ 1:40pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 08/29/2006 @ 1:39pm |
If you remember, PETER ROTHBERG came up with the same thing with his "International Tribunal".
When I pressed him on it, he said it was mistake and that it wasn't really "international", it was domestic politics.
I wonder why Ms vanden Heuvel is raising it again as an "international" "issue"?
Posted by Mask at 08/29/2006 @ 1:42pm
Liberty, why in the world is wanting international attention on the Handling of displaced people a sign of working against sovereignty? The U.S. has often led such efforts on behalf of victims overseas. Can't we apply that same level of scrutiny at home as well?
Posted by gregokauf at 08/29/2006 @ 1:48pm
Also (no, not going RESE/PLUNG or ZERO spamming...just a note)
I love the fact that ACORN was engaged in both "union busting" (until caught and exposed) AND trying to exempt themselves from the California minimum wage (immediately following trying getting it raised in Wisconsin!).
Posted by Mask at 08/29/2006 @ 1:52pm
"Yet, Nagin has been given a "pass" on any responsibility DURING "Katrina"....is he "guilty" in its aftermath?"
Posted by MASK 08/29/2006 @ 1:40pm
Now, I'm the last one to be an apologist for Ray Nagin; from day one he has seemed way out of his depth.
But other than that clown Brown, who has been held accountable?
Posted by drhammer at 08/29/2006 @ 1:53pm
liberty--
slow down, you are making totally outrageous leaps of logic. this is actually one of katrina's finest pieces of writing in a long time.
katrina, thanks again. you are clearly one of the sanest voices out there---and you always look wonderful on television! love your style, girl......
Posted by darladoon at 08/29/2006 @ 2:07pm
If you thought this article was goofy, check out Naomi Klein's.
Posted by woodyee at 08/29/2006 @ 2:07pm
Posted by DRHAMMER 08/29/2006 @ 1:53pm |
Doc, you want to attack Nagin? Hope you like fishing, cuz I think you'll open a can of worms.
Another of those "rifts that's not a rift" moments, but I think you'll find a few on the Left here and elsewhere that will split with ACORN and friends, over attacking Nagin (pre, during, or after Katrina).
It's kind of a trap, based on the obvious need to blame Bush and the FEMA fiasco, but then it gets "murky" when you start throwing in Blanco and Nagin. Fear of "diluting" the blame on the Fed (plus good ol' fashioned partisanship) kept the blogger apologists from going after Kathleen and Ray TOO hard, for fear that it would become a "Everybody (both Ds and Rs) was at fault"...and somehow lose the "issue" of "Katrina" as a hammer against Bush.
(For the record...seems to me from mayor to governor to President...the whole bunch were screw-ups!)
Posted by Mask at 08/29/2006 @ 2:15pm
now naomi makes tremendous leaps of logic. but she's still quite young, and extraordinarily busy.
katrina is a mature woman, been around a long time. did her thing already...she's on cruise control now. naomi still has some work to do.
you all have to understand that, unless you've seen first hand the damage down there, or you have friends and family down there, it's almost impossible to grasp the sheer magnitude of pain and loss. can you imagine losing everything you own? your dog? your brother? your record collection?
dude, this sh*t is for real. it's about as bad as it gets. like dante's circle of hell for many...
Posted by darladoon at 08/29/2006 @ 2:15pm
Is it true that on Bush's recent trip all of his televised speeches were in front of a big banner that said, "GULFCOAST REBUILT"?
Posted by fromredbird at 08/29/2006 @ 2:16pm
and speaking of groups helping out : burning man did a tremendous amount of work last year for new orleans. they have incredible survival skills, the burners. many are still down there helping out....www.burningman.com
Posted by darladoon at 08/29/2006 @ 2:17pm
(Suppose I'm on her "Ignore" list...but curious)
"(KVH) been around a long time. did her thing already...she's on cruise control now." What does THIS mean???
"you all have to understand that, unless you've seen first hand the damage down there" DARLA, when did you go to New Orleans?
Posted by DARLADOON 08/29/2006 @ 2:15pm | ignore this person
Posted by Mask at 08/29/2006 @ 2:22pm
Posted by MASK 08/29/2006 @ 2:15pm
I wrote "Now, I'm the last one to be an apologist for Ray Nagin; from day one he has seemed way out of his depth."
This is an attack?
Posted by drhammer at 08/29/2006 @ 2:25pm
"you all have to understand that, unless you've seen first hand the damage down there, or you have friends and family down there, it's almost impossible to grasp the sheer magnitude of pain and loss. can you imagine losing everything you own? your dog? your brother? your record collection?
dude, this sh*t is for real. it's about as bad as it gets. like dante's circle of hell for many...
Posted by DARLADOON 08/29/2006 @ 2:15pm | ignore this person "
Darladoon - Excellent post and this is something we need to remember.
Posted by woodyee at 08/29/2006 @ 2:39pm
"...from day one he has seemed way out of his depth."
This is an attack?
Posted by DRHAMMER 08/29/2006 @ 2:25pm
I'm sorry...it's an "endorsement"...or "defense" of the man!?!??!?
Posted by Mask at 08/29/2006 @ 2:52pm
There has been a tendency to forget the real lesson's of Katrina.
Yes Ray Nagin was not as good as he could have been. Perhaps Kathleen Blanco should have called the Guard in sooner.
But the real lesson of Katrina is that "shit happens". After September 11, 2001 we ALL knew that "shit" could happen and so was born a massive new government cabinet level post called Homeland Security. Homeland Security is supposed to stop the man made "shit" from happening, but knowing that some "shit" will still happen is supposed to provide a coordinated federal response so that a region can be helped by the whole as quickly and efficiently as possible. There is a VERY good reason for this, and that is, that it is feasable that a future ration of "shit" might be BIOLOGICAL. If our federal reaction time is not at least 10,000 times better coordinated than our reaction to Katrina, under biological attack we will ALL be dead. Nationwide and worldwide.
Katrina exposed the fact that our federal government is no better capable of disaster preparedness than they were on September 11, 2001 despite the billions funnelled into the program.
Is HS simply wasted money? Or is it just that Republican governments don't know how to set up entities like HS? Either way, as a taxpayer, something has to change.
Posted by freedomplease at 08/29/2006 @ 3:03pm
"Perhaps the good socialists at Acorn and others like Darla and other leftists can name another country that provides money, food, lodging, and even temporary replacement homes when a major natural disasters strikes?"
sure, cuba, canada, iceland, japan, you want more?
liberty, we liberals do not have grand, totalizing theories anymore. republicans do (let the market decide everything is a good case), but we don't.
and why are you so afraid of socialist democracies? think you'll have to learn russian or something?
Posted by darladoon at 08/29/2006 @ 3:27pm
Conservative New Orleans mantra: Nagin socialist liberal Nagin socialist liberal Nagin socialist liberal.
This has to be chanted 1000 times to make up for each time a liberal says "FEMA".
Posted by LiberalPride at 08/29/2006 @ 3:30pm
Posted by LIBERALPRIDE 08/29/2006 @ 3:30pm
LP, is it okay to chant "Nagin, from day one he has seemed way out of his depth!"?
Posted by Mask at 08/29/2006 @ 3:37pm
sure, cuba, canada, iceland, japan, you want more?
and why are you so afraid of socialist democracies? think you'll have to learn russian or something?
Posted by DARLADOON 08/29/2006 @ 3:27pm
This is the second time in as many days...that DARLA has referred to Cuba as a "democracy"!!!
Posted by Mask at 08/29/2006 @ 3:38pm
The mental disorder known as liberalism causes people like darlaloon and henry bellafonte to believe that cuba is a democracy! I say the AMA should begin to treat it as such!
Posted by barry25 at 08/29/2006 @ 3:49pm
and you could add so much more, liberalpride:
"carter appointee"
"feminist governor"
"clinton appointee"
"activist judge"
Posted by darladoon at 08/29/2006 @ 3:50pm
I think Jimmy Carter was recently quoted as saying that Tony Blair is too " Pro-American"! If that doesn't show where his ( and most liberals who defend him )loyalty stands I don't know what does. My god, how much more evidence do we need that liberalism is truly a mental disorder than a former U.S. president saying that a foreign leader is TOO "Pro-American"! Traitorous insanity I tell you! These people are absolute nut-cases! This does, however, explain Carter's total failure as president, it must have been intentional!
Posted by barry25 at 08/29/2006 @ 3:57pm
I've said this before and I'll say it again.
Katrina is what happens when EVERYBODY screws up. Not just the Feds. Not just the State Government. Not just the Local Government. Everyone.
There are folks here in my hometown of Philly who survived Katrina, came here, and still ain't right because they're not only battling the post traumatic stress disorder connected to what's happened to them, they're also dealing with the realization that the governmental entities that they trusted to keep their families from drowning to death totally screwed up.
You have to be made of stronger stuff than I am to deal with something like that without opening up a can of whip ass on everyone you see with a FEMA jacket on. I know that if it were me, and I had to sit and watch as my mother drowned because the folks that were supposed to rescue us sat on their asses and watched CNN while denying that I was even in trouble, somebody would have some buckshot in their ass.
Oh, and Barry25, can you tell me what a comment from Jimmy Carter about Tony Blair and the fact that everyone, including most of the folks that voted for him in his own country, sees him as Bush's Bitch has to do with reconstructing New Orleans? Do you think that if you're going to go on a rant that you can at least keep it to the subject at hand?
Posted by edwriter at 08/29/2006 @ 4:36pm
they're also dealing with the realization that the governmental entities that they trusted to keep their families from drowning to death totally screwed up.
Posted by EDWRITER 08/29/2006 @ 4:36pm | ignore this person
Key political point, ED.
Do those people then think that some "new leadership" of those governmental entities will fix the problem...or that under ANY political leadership, those entities cannot be trusted?
Posted by Mask at 08/29/2006 @ 4:51pm
Socialist, socialist, socialist. The FEMA should not have any other responsibilities except to help pad the pockets of the already wealthy.
Posted by LiberalPride at 08/29/2006 @ 4:54pm
Why, the national govt in Cuba does a good job of protecting its citizens against hurricanes - and they're SOCIALIST! You want us to be like Cuba? Why, Cuba ought to get rid of medical care, get those plantations up and running again, and for goodness sakes STOP protecting people against hurricanes.
Thank goodness that in America, the FEMA understands that they are ONLY supposed to help wealthy people become even wealthier, and mouthpiece the President's lies as Heckuva Job Brownie has done. Why, protecting people from hurricanes, that's Socialist, Socialist, socialist, liberal, socialist, Nagin, socialist, I TELL YOU!!!
Posted by LiberalPride at 08/29/2006 @ 4:57pm
One thing that can help people avoid being the victims of hurricanes is to heed the WARNINGS that they are given well in advance. Another thing that can be done is for the local gov't to at least use government vehicles ( abandoned school buses:see ray nagin )to help people evacuate! You know, you morons are really something special. You blame Bush for Katrina, but have no criticism of the local and state officials. If someone breaks into your house and holds your family hostage, who has the ability to be the first responder to your home? The federal gov't of the FUCKING local police station right down the street. If a fire breaks out in your neighborhood, who you gonna call on, moron? The fire department in Washington D.C. or the FUCKING local fire dept. right down the street? It's sooooo obvious that, just like the tsunami, you hateful jerkoffs take any tragedy and immediately assign blame to Bush because you can't see reality due to your blind hatred for Bush. The local authorities failed miserably, the state authorities failed miserably, and the federal gov't failed miserably, and that's reality. Gov't always fails, no matter who is in charge. That's why so many rational conservatives would rather keep much more power and money in the private sector. By the way, Ray " bonafide racist/chocolate city" Nagin was probably the most miserable failure of all, and yet they re-elected him! Well, some people get what they ask for, let's hope the people of New Orleans don't, for their own sake!
Posted by barry25 at 08/29/2006 @ 6:15pm
I know that many Liberals here are able to articulate what exactly Ray Nagin did wrong - but can any Conservatives? What exactly did Ray Nagin do wrong - apart from endorse George Bush for President?
Posted by LiberalPride at 08/29/2006 @ 6:21pm
F***ING liberal socialist hateful socialist racist Nagin
Posted by LiberalPride at 08/29/2006 @ 6:24pm
What exactly did Ray Nagin do wrong - apart from endorse George Bush for President?
Posted by LIBERALPRIDE 08/29/2006 @ 6:21pm | ignore this person
I'll tell you, son, heres what he did. Socialist friggin socialist liberal commie socialist, hateful racist socialist friggin liberal Demoncrat. Ray Nagin, that socialist liberal communist socialist, FUCCKING FUCCKING socialist. Hateful socialist liberal socialist. Now dont say I cant articulate my position, liberal.
Posted by LiberalPride at 08/29/2006 @ 6:27pm
Specifically, what did Ray Nagin do, that makes him a racist?
Posted by LiberalPride at 08/29/2006 @ 6:33pm
Liberalpride, where have you been? Did you hear his comments about making new Orleans a "Chocolate city"? Can you explain what he meant, if it wasn't racist? If Bush said "we're gonna make Crawford a vanilla city", I'm sure you wouldn't have brought up race, right? Now, since your head has been in the sand for the last year, I'll tell you one glaing mistake: A YARD FULL OF SCHOOL BUSES THAT NAGIN HAD CONTROL OF, SITTING UNUSED THAT COULD HAVE EVACUATED HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, GIVEN THE FACT ( ACCORDING TO LIBERAL FREAKS THAT BLAME BUSH ) THAT SUPPOSEDLY EVERYONE KNEW 3DAYS BEFORE KATRINA THAT THIS WAS GOING TO BE A CATASTROPHIC EVENT! Got it, moron!
Posted by barry25 at 08/29/2006 @ 6:46pm
So now that I easily answered both of your idiotic questions with facts, do you really want to set yourself up for more clownin'? Think before you write/spin!
Posted by barry25 at 08/29/2006 @ 6:49pm
Posted by LIBERALPRIDE 08/29/2006 @ 6:21pm
Sarcasm aside...what IS your view of Nagin? The "Spike Lee" view...or the "ACORN" view?
Posted by Mask at 08/29/2006 @ 7:06pm
We really shouldn't fault Homeland Security too much considering their basic assignment- to protect the American people from the dangerously dangerous danger of terrorism and remind them of it on a daily basis except within 90 days of Presidential and Congressional elections when they should be reminded of it at least two to three times a day.
Posted by fromredbird at 08/29/2006 @ 7:34pm
I said the same just the other day to a liberal friend who asked me what I knew of Ray Nagins role in the failures, about the buses. Notice, liberals not rushing to Ray Nagins defense - & that includes Spike Lee.
Posted by LiberalPride at 08/29/2006 @ 7:46pm
Sorry to change the subject, but it's quite apparent that another oppressed member of the "religion of peace" ( terrorist: you know , the people you libs constantly defend ) just ran over I think 12 innocent civilians in San Fran. ( predicted lib response: "yeah, but Christians do this kind of shit all the time too" ). But before you panic, libs, I think you can rest assusred that the MSM will be defending this terrorist by claiming he is bipolar just like the MSM did with the terrorist who shot those innocent women in Seattle ( yeah, but those women were Jews, so who cares ) recently. I know I know, George Bush's ME policies drove this oxygen-thief to do this!
Posted by barry25 at 08/29/2006 @ 7:54pm
Dont apologize Barry, because you havent changed the subject, the subject on here is still New Orleans
Posted by LiberalPride at 08/29/2006 @ 7:56pm
Dont apologize Barry, because you havent changed the subject, the subject on here is still New Orleans
Posted by LiberalPride at 08/29/2006 @ 7:56pm
Liberalhide, I got to give you credit, it's been 5 min. and you still haven't blame Bush for the rampage of an oppressed member of the "religion of peace" you know, those terrorists that really aren't a threat to U.S. citizens, the ones who are just being used by Bush and Rove to scare us into voting for them/fear-mongering)
Posted by barry25 at 08/29/2006 @ 8:06pm
The subject is not "what liberals would probably say". Incidentally, your post caused me to actually read the article here being discussed, interestingly I dont see too much criticism of George Bush in it - for that I would fault the author.
Posted by LiberalPride at 08/29/2006 @ 8:09pm
Posted by BARRY25 08/29/2006 @ 7:54pm
There are no "religions of peace".
Peace is only attainable with justice and freedom. These are only acheived through rational ththought.
As long as your belief system allows you to rationalize the irrational, no progess can be made.
Muslims are as dangerous as christians and jews.
Eric
Posted by Malcontent at 08/29/2006 @ 8:13pm
Nagins remark about "rebuild a chocolate city" - didnt offend me, BUT, a whole lot of other liberals, it did offend.
Posted by LiberalPride at 08/29/2006 @ 8:23pm
Nagin is an ambitious dick, who worships at the pee-trough of Bush and minions. As for "Love Liberty" and "Mask", they are simply dicks without value or purpose.
Fall is approaching,( and the day of reckoning for Bush butt-wipers)
Love, bloppy
Posted by bloppy at 08/29/2006 @ 8:41pm
I found this from the article as an interesting contradiction:
ACORN and its allies are making headway in the fight to give poor and middle class citizens of New Orleans a voice in rebuilding their city.
And then the article, and the media states that people are just not returning there. Not even to clean up their own properties and to prevent them from being razed. Is this way the war on poverty is just 40 or so years old, with no end in sight?? By design?? Hmmmm...
Posted by Sliver at 08/29/2006 @ 10:37pm
Placing the idiot "conservative" prattlers aside,
...And here I thought you ignored most of us on here. Damn, now I'm disappointed. So, if you haven't already done so, please do so now.
Posted by Sliver at 08/29/2006 @ 10:49pm
Malcontent, you've made it obvious of how much you truly are in denial over what religion ( Islam ) is by itself the single most dangerous on the planet. Pull your head out of your ass, get over the deep-seeded anger towards Christians that causes you to irrationally act as if they are in any way comparable to Islamic radicals, before it's too late. The liberal establishment in SF is now getting it's first taste of the threat we all face, but I'm sure, they, like you, will keep their head in the sand until it's too late! I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks any religion today, is as dangerous to our civilization as Islam, is a danger to us, themselves, and the world as a whole. Malcontentforreality, you're a moron!
Posted by barry25 at 08/29/2006 @ 10:56pm
By the way, seems as though the "Conservative" media hasn't had much if anything to report on this act of terrorism by a member of "the religion of peace". I mean, he only ran over 12-13 or so people. Now, a real crime, like the supposed rape of a black stripper by 3 rich white kids, now that is a true crime worthy of reporting!
Posted by barry25 at 08/29/2006 @ 10:59pm
how does the neo-conservative movement sustain? confronted with the most mundane criticisms, its adherents bristle with contempt. even christopher hitchens is cracking.
Posted by darladoon at 08/29/2006 @ 11:57pm
more education + less children = liberal
less education + more children = conservative
less education + more children + amnesia = neo-conservative
Posted by darladoon at 08/30/2006 @ 12:07am
Posted by BARRY25 08/29/2006 @ 10:56pm
ooo baby... The evangelic church is much more dangerous then the big three combined.
Posted by Will C. at 08/30/2006 @ 12:08am
Yet, Nagin has been given a "pass" on any responsibility DURING "Katrina"....is he "guilty" in its aftermath?
Posted by MASK 08/29/2006 @ 1:40pm | ignore this person
From the KVH article...
"The work to protect homeowners, tenants and neighborhoods began in the immediate aftermath of the disaster when Mayor Ray Nagin announced that the city would demolish approximately 50,000 homes in the wake of the flooding. In December, the city was set to bulldoze the first 2,500 homes when ACORN members won a settlement requiring that homeowners be notified and given the opportunity to appeal before any action is taken."
I wonder why Ms vanden Heuvel is raising it again as an "international" "issue"?
Posted by MASK 08/29/2006 @ 1:42pm | ignore this person
Again, from the article...
"Regarding the international perspective, the Institute for Southern Studies indicates that legal scholars believe that 16 of the 30 UN Principles guiding the handling of "Internally Displaced People" were violated in the case of Katrina."
Key political point, ED.
Do those people then think that some "new leadership" of those governmental entities will fix the problem...or that under ANY political leadership, those entities cannot be trusted?
Posted by MASK 08/29/2006 @ 4:51pm | ignore this person
And yet again from the KVH article...
"According to the Institute for Southern Studies,...no federal funds had been dispersed to rebuild homes – zero; "
Posted by Lillian at 08/30/2006 @ 12:10am
does anyone else here find laura bush somewhat vacant? she gave an interview today. the interviewer was lobbing huge softball questions, and laura felt confident throughout the duration. the interviewer dispelled any doubts mrs. bush, or the rest of us, might have of her husband's competence when she (the interviewer) appeared dismayed that future historians might negatively characterize bush's presidency BECAUSE of his less than adequate response to katrina. the interviewer practically encouraged mrs. bush to disagree---that her husband, in fact, does care about poverty, and the racial connection to it. it was like some sort of faux heart-to-heart discussion you might hear on a woman's morning talk show. fluff, fluff, fluff.
how bad does bush have to fuck up before the neo-conservatives drop him?
Posted by darladoon at 08/30/2006 @ 12:16am
I'm sorry...it's an "endorsement"...or "defense" of the man!?!??!?
Posted by MASK 08/29/2006 @ 2:52pm | ignore this person
Do those people then think that some "new leadership" of those governmental entities will fix the problem...or that under ANY political leadership, those entities cannot be trusted?
Posted by MASK 08/29/2006 @ 4:51pm | ignore this person
Sarcasm aside...what IS your view of Nagin? The "Spike Lee" view...or the "ACORN" view?
Posted by MASK 08/29/2006 @ 7:06pm | ignore this person
Way to go Mask...3 false dichotomies in one thread...in the space of just a few hours. Are you shooting for a new record in "Mask-box" building?
I'm beginning to think that someone (Zero?) hit the nail directly on the head the other day when mentioning the thought that perhpas Mask is being paid by some wingnut organization to post on this site.
Posted by Lillian at 08/30/2006 @ 12:17am
is anyone else curious what mrs. bush looks like without make-up?
what she needs is a nice full afternoon, smoking good mendocino kind, on a nude northern california beach.
Posted by darladoon at 08/30/2006 @ 12:19am
-- Bobby Jindal is a Republican congressman from Louisiana.
Posted by RIO BRAVO 08/30/2006 @ 01:08am
lucky for him... the republicans control our country.
it's too bad that right now they (the republicans) are way too busy with the flubbing
Posted by Will C. at 08/30/2006 @ 01:14am
Will C. , that's it, you're last post concerning the evangelic church confirms the fact that you are certifiably insane. Hate to say it, and I hope that no one ever has to taste the wrath of the "religion of peace", but when the next attack by the occurs in this country, let it be on those ( morons like will ) who deny the threat we are all facing. Reality is gonna have to hit idiots like will dead in the mouth before we can all unite against the true threat we all face. Rio, well stated, but again, your talking to people who feel they are entiitled to coddling by our gov't. It's ingrained in their minds, gov't is the end-all be-all, so it's like telling a spoiled child that he/she cannot have everything because money doesn't grow on trees....they can't/won't/refuse to rationalize it! They expect to be taken care of by others. In the end, I believe a large part of a liberal's problems are due to the fact that they just won't grow up. Because I thought like these juveniles when I was a teen and young adult! It's only when life kicked me in the ass, was I able to finally see that I was the cause of almost if not all my problems! i think the word is MATURITY!
Posted by barry25 at 08/30/2006 @ 01:52am
Posted by LILLIAN 08/30/2006 @ 12:17am
And another LILLIAN counter-response with no specifics...
WHY is saying a man is "out of his depth" not an attack on him, as Doc claimed?
Either the government entity fails or its leaders failed..what's the "third" choice?
Nagin is either a good or bad (or perhaps fair) mayor....what's YOUR view? (careful now, remember a few libs still want Nagin blameless!)
Posted by Mask at 08/30/2006 @ 07:15am
"WHY is saying a man is "out of his depth" not an attack on him, as Doc claimed?"
The inability to make a distinction between an "attack" and an unflattering assessment of someone's capabilities is yet another illustration of the black/white, you're-either-with-us-or-you're-against-us mindset that is the prerequisite of BushCo.
Posted by drhammer at 08/30/2006 @ 08:04am
"I'm beginning to think that someone (Zero?) hit the nail directly on the head the other day when mentioning the thought that perhpas Mask is being paid by some wingnut organization to post on this site."
Posted by LILLIAN 08/30/2006 @ 12:17am
We've all made note of the apologists and contrarians who seem to come here solely to argue and/or distract or hijack threads, simulaneously dissing the Nation website, its contributors, and its participants. Some of them will be quick to tell us how little value or impact this loony left-wing site has in the real world, while spending more time here than even the most left-leaning blogger. It does make one wonder.
Can it really be that satisfying to spend the day urinating in other people's lunchpails?
(And I hope no one construes this as an attack...)
Posted by drhammer at 08/30/2006 @ 08:22am
Posted by BARRY25 08/30/2006 @ 01:52am
so you're saying I'm insane because the evangelic church is the most murderous, vile, satanic abomination that ever existed.
or because you belong to it.
Posted by Will C. at 08/30/2006 @ 08:48am
Either the government entity fails or its leaders failed..what's the "third" choice?
Posted by MASK 08/30/2006 @ 07:15am
the government entity hypothetically fails (see: mask)
Posted by Will C. at 08/30/2006 @ 08:50am
and an unflattering assessment of someone's capabilities
Posted by DRHAMMER 08/30/2006 @ 08:04am
Okay, Doc...how IS that described? "constructive criticism"?
Do I detect a bit of "edging your bets" in your assessment of Nagin? Neither wanting to go after him (and risk getting lumped in with the "racist" Nagin critics), but neither wanting to give him a pass...given the new "ACORN" view of him as a "Republican-lite trying to screw over the little people"?
Does "out of his depth" mean stupid...or something else?
Posted by Mask at 08/30/2006 @ 09:18am
Posted by WILL C. 08/30/2006 @ 08:50am
WILL, I gotta laugh. DRHAMMER talks about me wanting "to come here solely to argue"....and yet that's EXACTLY what you do on half my posts.
What is the ANSWER? Was it a failure of the institution or the people running it? Not sure what "hypothetically fails" means?
If you don't have an answer (even a simplistic one like your "cut off all trade to China today" answer to global warming and trade deficits)...just call me a hamster or something else that was clever the first time(out of 50,000), again.
Posted by Mask at 08/30/2006 @ 09:21am
On totally unrelated fronts:
The mating cry of the WingNuts going into fall is "Islamo-fascism!" Off the AP wire:
Republicans Target 'Islamic Fascism' Wednesday, August 30th, 2006 at 6:40am
President Bush in recent days has recast the global war on terror into a "war against Islamic fascism." Fascism, in fact, seems to be the new buzz word for Republicans in an election season dominated by an unpopular war in Iraq.
Bush used the term earlier this month in talking about the arrest of suspected terrorists in Britain, and spoke of "Islamic fascists" in a later speech in Green Bay, Wis. Spokesman Tony Snow has used variations on the phrase at White House press briefings.
Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., in a tough re-election fight, drew parallels on Monday between World War II and the current war against "Islamic fascism," saying they both require fighting a common foe in multiple countries. It's a phrase Santorum has been using for months.
And Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on Tuesday took it a step further in a speech to an American Legion convention in Salt Lake City, accusing critics of the administration's Iraq and anti-terrorism policies of trying to appease "a new type of fascism."
------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------- Ahhhh.."No child left behind..." How's that working out. Let's see.....
- AUGUST 30th, 2006 SAT scores show biggest drop in 31 years (factoids from various news feeds)
SAT scores have taken their biggest tumble in a generation...
Nationwide reading scores on the admissions exam fell five points among college-bound students this year, to an average 503, the lowest point since 1994. Math scores dropped two points, to 518.
School districts across the nation have reported lower composite scores based on a number of factors. Once we have fully evaluated the data associated with the 2005-06 administration of the test...(said one district official)
Students from private independent schools fared the best in Florida, followed by students from religious-affiliated private schools and followed by public school students. Scores improved in direct proportion to family income increases, as well as by the education level of the parents.
Posted by leftofcenter at 08/30/2006 @ 09:44am
Posted by MASK 08/30/2006 @ 09:18am
"Okay, Doc...how IS that described? "constructive criticism"?"
No. It has already been described, as an unflattering assessment of someone's capabilities.
"Do I detect a bit of "edging your bets" in your assessment of Nagin? Neither wanting to go after him (and risk getting lumped in with the "racist" Nagin critics), but neither wanting to give him a pass...given the new "ACORN" view of him as a "Republican-lite trying to screw over the little people"?"
No. You do not detect a bit of me hedging my bets. I have no dog in that hunt, and no concern with which group you choose to lump me.
"Does "out of his depth" mean stupid...or something else?"
It means he may lack all the skills or experience necessary to perform the job, and you know it. Does the fact that you ask anyway mean that you're stupid, or that you just feel compelled to create an argument for its own sake?
Posted by drhammer at 08/30/2006 @ 09:46am
Posted by LEFTOFCENTER 08/30/2006 @ 09:44am
On "Islamo-Fascism", the new BushCo buzzword-
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0828-23.htm
(A wonderful, topical Thom Hartmann piece, with some slightly unsettling historical background.)
I recommend it to all.
Posted by drhammer at 08/30/2006 @ 09:52am
I said this yesterday, but still the debate rages about the federal government's role in rebuilding (fair enough given that it is a year since Katrina hit). But while you are all taking sides on what the Fed's role in long term rebuilding should be, please don't for a moment forget that the Fed has to be responsible for short term disater reaction.
Silly posters here like LVL, Rio, Barry and Maasch will attempt to muddy the waters of the debate with "libertarian" arguments about the long term rebuilding.
But there can be absolutely NO argument about the Fed role in the short term. A biological agent could be released in East Bumblefuck, Iowa tomorrow and unless East Bumblefuck, Iowa happens to be ready with hundreds of spare hermetically sealed hospital rooms and tens of thousands of vacinations and thousands of biological suits with independent breathing apparatus then we'll all be needing a Federal government that knows how to mobilize quickly (not in 5 days) and knows what they're doing when they get there (even if cell towers are down and roads are impassable).
Over the course of one week Katrina showed the complete incompetence in HS as to what they could do in event of attack. Over the course of the last year the Federal government has shown how incompetent they are at rebuilding.
Both issues are important, but let's not lose sight of the short term disater reaction issue.
Posted by freedomplease at 08/30/2006 @ 09:53am
I watched Spike Lee's documentary last night. Outstanding.
Bluetexan -
If you are out there, I want to apologize for picking a fight with you last week regarding the race v. class issue and the pace of reconstruction. Apart from Lee's movie, I have read a lot more since then on the subject, and while I am still not totally convinced that race is the predominant issue as opposed to class, I DO understand your point. I also see that there was a lot to the reconstruction (or lack thereof) that I was not aware of. There is simply no excuse for some of the things that have not happened yet (but as far as laying blame, I do feel that is shared amongst many different levels of government). More importantly, I recognize that I was in advertently diverting attention from the most important issues - that many, many people need a lot of help and that our country let N.O. and the Gulf Region down. If I was going to pick a fight with anyone it should have been with some of the uncaring slobs who frequent this board. I hope I did not come off as one of those to you, and I do apologize.
Posted by Hman23 at 08/30/2006 @ 09:53am
Posted by DRHAMMER 08/30/2006 @ 09:46am
Just seems a VERY fine "distinction", Doc.
"unflattering assessment"..."lack all the skills or experience necessary to perform the job"....
yet that's not an attack?
Perhaps it's the term "attack" that the stumbling block? Surely, calling the man an "idiot" and "incompetent" would qualify, no?
My point, from the original point, was that there seems to be SLIGHT "rift" among the Left over Ray Nagin, and that even "unflattering assessments", which last year guys like Limbaugh and Hannity engaged in, were met with opposition from those who wanted Nagin AND Blanco "let off the hook" (for political reasons).
Maybe not anymore. Nagin obviously pissing of the Hard Left (like ACORN) with is re-building plans. Blanco raked over the coals by Spike Lee.
But as I noted before the "danger" is...that it "spreads the blame around" and could dilute it as a political issue. SO, it's a bit of a quandry.
Posted by Mask at 08/30/2006 @ 10:18am
Mask,
Wills little hamster, mantits, and evengelical comments never were clever and he has no answers...ever. Just bitch about the guys running a huge inefficient congolmerate called government..yet they ignore the efficiencys of free enterprise simply because there is a profit involved(evil profit, that is).
There are 2 types of groups involved..competent and incompetents..with both vying for control of the one thing all want..money...the people running Louisiana were Democrats, mostly black, but many white. Now if there was a showcase for democratic party liberals, it would have been Louisiana, it should have been the crown jewel..right in the middle of the red state south..a shining star showing the policys,capability, and ideals of the wonderful dems...and what was shown to the world and the nation? Exactly that and demonstrated once again why they should not be left in control of a good will store, muchless the machinery of government. Incompetents..from the police dept on up to the Governor..Dems through and through.. TOTALLY INCOMPETENT.
The levees are run by democratic controled, appointed commitees who are supposed to maintain and improve the levees. Money was provided to build and improve levee system... ALL, especially those who live there, knew the real situation and their condition...where are these people? Why are they not investigated? Why not interview them and FOLLOW the money? We have NEVER received answer to the buses...and now a year later..same complaint. Whos gonna help me? Wheres my check? New Orleans is not rebuilt because there is NO plan...no one is in charge down there...Nagin gets re elected just to keep the city black...but there is no plan. Misssissippi hs come along way because there was and is a plan.
Rules, codes, regulations all fight each other and as a result nothing happens...one idiot who regularly lectures here ad nauesum actually wanted to know why there is no national plan to return all the people back to NO..No where to put them ...there is no shortage of money, just competents to know where, how and when to spend it correctly. No one is going to rebuild a crime ridden, dangerous to even walk there, drug ifested neighborhood ghetto just to keep it black...period. It was a horrible area and those hopuses can not and should not be rebuilt. Even if they did the cost of rebuilding a house that generated $ 400 in rent would now have to generate $ 1000 in rent...should I pay this too? Below sae level so we can all do this again? NO. One can see the influence in Houston of this group who lived in NO...and Houston IS looking for a way to get rid of these people..NO has an opportunity to get a second chance and build something new and better...it needs a plan...and someone to carry out the plan. It is painfully obvious to everyone, including an "International Tribunal" that the problem starts with the local people and works it way up to the Governor...and the feds..But the feds are not and should not be in charge of rebuilding NO..Louisianans should WANT to do this...the feds(you and me) want to provide the money and we do..not the construction crews..they are coming from Mexico as the locals are not showing up to work in their own neighborhoods to work in many areas..this alone should be very telling...
We witnessed a disaster all knew was coming and all failed,... to blame it all on Bush and the feds is to invite another failure next time...we have seen the Dems in action down there and it is not pretty....it is incompetent to the max....and the locals seem to have replaced the incompetenrts with the same people..in the name of keeping the city chocolate. Good luck.
Posted by john maasch at 08/30/2006 @ 10:25am
But as I noted before the "danger" is...that it "spreads the blame around" and could dilute it as a political issue. SO, it's a bit of a quandry.
Posted by MASK 08/30/2006 @ 10:18am
Only a quandry for the folks who think the politics of it perdominate, Mask. That is a pretty thin minority of poeple.
Posted by Hman23 at 08/30/2006 @ 10:26am
"predominate"
Posted by Hman23 at 08/30/2006 @ 10:33am
Maasch -
oooh boy . . . that was lot to swallow. You need to take a step back and look at your self in the mirror.
Posted by Hman23 at 08/30/2006 @ 10:38am
Only a quandry for the folks who think the politics of it perdominate, Mask. That is a pretty thin minority of poeple.
Posted by HMAN23 08/30/2006 @ 10:26am
REALLY?!?!?.....So all those bloggers I read back last September, who were soft-balling Nagin and Blanco, and posting "Brownie, you're doing a ROTTEN job" 1500 times a day.... were a "minority"?
Wow! Who knew?
Posted by Mask at 08/30/2006 @ 10:55am
Posted by MASK 08/30/2006 @ 10:55am
Of course that you are assuming that those who held that view did so for only "political" reasons.
Posted by Hman23 at 08/30/2006 @ 1:29pm
Hman,
"oooh boy . . . that was lot to swallow.".....better not let Will read this from you....
Its just like eating an elephant(great metaphor,eh)..one bite at a time...it is alot...people are being hurt by unecessary regulations down there and local politics...LOCAL incompetentcy.
Posted by john maasch at 08/30/2006 @ 1:31pm
Maasch –
Let's take this apart.
yet they ignore the efficiencys of free enterprise simply because there is a profit involved(evil profit, that is).
Please explain to me how free enterprise is going to solve the reconstruction problems, specifically how it is going to return low-income residents to their homes.
Exactly that and demonstrated once again why they should not be left in control of a good will store, muchless the machinery of government.
If you are going to focus attention of incompetence, focus it on the individuals involved. This is hardly an indictment on "liberalism" or the Democratic Party as a whole any more so than Bush, Chertoff and FEMA's incompetence is an indictment on all things conservative. Following your logic, and if you admit that there were mistakes on the federal level (which I think you must do if you are being honest), aren't those an indictment on allowing anyone from the right to control issues involving homeland security? You need to move away from using this as a sledge-hammer against a political ideology. When massive amounts of people are at risk, dying, or have had their lives and property devastated, political ideology should not enter into the picture. What about that can't you get? When I criticize Bush for his dreadful and inept leadership during this crisis, or Chertoff or FEMA's poor showing, I am not attacking conservative philosophy so don't be one of those people that gets so defensive about protecting all things Republican. I direct my anger at the specific individuals involved. You look at the "D" next to Nagin and Blanco and that is all the evidence you need. But I am willing to admit that you could have thrown a number of different Republicans in as president or selected other conservatives to run HS or FEMA and the situation would have been handled better. Not sure why you cannot do the same thing.
The levees are run by democratic controled, appointed commitees who are supposed to maintain and improve the levees.
The construction of the levees was run by the US Army Corp of Engineers. They should be called to answer for it. And sure, the politicians who were supposed to be overseeing it should also bear some responsibility. But, at some point you have to get beyond looking back and passing out demerits and address the current situation. It is absolutely embarrassing when you look at what the Netherlands have been able to construct and look at the past levee system in N.O., and what they are designing now. There is simply no excuse why the richest nation in the world was not able to better protect the levees and certainly no reason that something like the system in the Netherlands (or even improved system) cannot be done today.
We have NEVER received answer to the buses
The buses, the buses, the buses! Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. Nagin was supposed to save the city with a fleet of school buses. Who the f*%! Was he supposed to get to drive them? Those school bus drivers making $10/hour, the cops who didn't show up for work. Sure, the buses COULD have been utilized in theory. What you seem to ignore is that in a disaster like this, it is EXPECTED that local services, communications, and responses will break down – because THEY ARE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STORM! Those local responders have homes in the area, perhaps they were trapped too, they may have had personal issues that trumped civic concerns. This is why in cases when things like Katrina happen, a Federal response is demanded. And don't even try to compare this with what the NYPD and NYFD did on 9/11 if you think about going down that road. As bad as 9/11 was, the damage was confined to a much smaller area.
No one is going to rebuild a crime ridden, dangerous to even walk there, drug ifested neighborhood ghetto just to keep it black...period. It was a horrible area and those hopuses can not and should not be rebuilt.
This is rich. We should only fix the neighborhoods that those living outside deem non-horrible. Punish people because they happen to live in an area with a higher crime rate. Even if it was a "horrible" area under your standards, who are you to say anything about whether it is rebuilt? You didn't live there. These aren't YOUR homes we are talking about.
I won't even get into the rest, but only will say that all this talk about federal money and what should be spent on what is bullshit. New Orleans is a major port city on the most important river in our country. It has a rich history that is folded into our entire nation's. Most importantly it has American citizens who need help. Rebuilding New Orleans is important to the country as a whole and if you do not recognize this, I don't know what to say. – it should certainly be a bigger priority for this country than rebuilding Iraq.
Posted by Hman23 at 08/30/2006 @ 1:38pm
And Maasch, THAT thought never entered into my mind.
Perhaps Will is on to something.
Posted by Hman23 at 08/30/2006 @ 1:39pm
Of course that you are assuming that those who held that view did so for only "political" reasons.
Posted by HMAN23 08/30/2006 @ 1:29pm
Gee, HMAN...what a cynic I am! OF COURSE those that lambasted the Republican President, and played down or even left blameless the Democratic Governor of LA or the Democratic Mayor of NO ....weren't being "political"!
Or the fact that it was immediately added (along with Iraq) to a list of things that "Democrats should run against in Nov. 2006" by political operatives like James Carville and Paul Begala!
Posted by Mask at 08/30/2006 @ 2:25pm
Leftofreality has made my point. The private sector is more capable and effective than gov't will ever be. Independant private schools fared best, followed by those darn evil religious schools and coming in last would be the public ( we're gonna show your kids how to use condoms and focus on homosexuality in the first grade ) schools! Just another example of why big gov't always fails and why as much control as possibble should be left in the hands of the private sector. Lib's just don't like the private sector because they are required to perform and when they are required to perform they fail, so they need the protection of gov't and unions in order to keep a job. It's just that simple. Thanks again, for proving my point, leftofreality!
Posted by barry25 at 08/30/2006 @ 2:36pm
By the way, anyone heard anything about the member of the "religion of peace" running down all those people in S.F yesterday? Ya, me neither! Damn that conservative media!
Posted by barry25 at 08/30/2006 @ 2:39pm
Nevermind, I just read up on it and the member of " the religion of peace" was just misunderstood. You see, he was upset because of an arranged marriage, and, in order to get out of it, he ran over 14 or more peoiple, killing at least one. This is a customary procedure in Afgan culture, you see. Just like the other member of the " religion of peace " who shot all those women ( who cares, they were only Jews ) in Seattle last month. He was just bipolar ( like most libs on this blog ), so we need to be tolerant and understanding. We need to find out how George Bush could have caused this man to target and murder Jews! Place the blame where it tulry lies. Be a deep-thinker!
Posted by barry25 at 08/30/2006 @ 2:47pm
Hman,
How are you?
Last, first..
"Rebuilding New Orleans is important to the country as a whole and if you do not recognize this,"...
... you should recognize that I do, from my post, its just that who should do it is my entire post..the ones who watched their own city sink from the Hotelroom/ city hall? or a planning committee of private /public partnership with realistic ideas on how to improve and not repeat the past. Private expertise and efficiency along with COMPETENT government help is a necessity for success.
No one, private or public should want to rebuid in a below sea level area again, much less set up the conditions for another ghetto area developing 3 months after the last house is built there. That are was more dangerous than Iraq.. People WILL not invest in an area that will rot away in front of their eyes as most government housing areas do. Throw in below sea level and you have a perfect recipe for failure and repeats.
Ah, the buses..you have made a nice list of excuses but no answers...
3 days BEFORE a Cat 5 storm approaches someone MIGHT have said..we need to evacuate the low areas...lets use all those buses sitting in the parking lot(governement owned busses)..and if some guy won't drive his fellow citizens out for $ 10 an hour, then neither should he be DRIVEN out, ...are you really saying out of 100,000 people you couldn't find drivers to help save their neighbors?...who drives the bus? The same people who drive the same voters from the same area to the voting polls on election day...the Democratic ward chairman!!!!! Same number of people from the same addresses. How about Ol' Jesse his self, who has ridden in more worhtless bus rides than any man in America...he could have been a real help, but showed up AFTER the flood, looking for cash and TV time.. or maybe some of those who were sitting on the roof might have been enticed to get a FREE ride out before the roof was even considered. The people maybe be poor, black, white whatever, but they can't be that stupid to sit and watch ......
Yes, the levess were consucted by USCE, but where overseen and run by locals comissions,appointees, by those who ran the city(which is why I am pointing out the Dems)could there have been better ones? yes, but they never showed up....these people are RESPONSIBLE for the money they receive to repair, up grade or redesign the levess.....there are 3 separate comissions....any word from them? As far as dems in my post,...HMAN, THEY CONTROLED ALL THE OFFICES IN NEW ORLEANS AND THE STATE..THIS WAS THEIR MOMENT TO SHINE ..THIS WAS THEIR MOMENT TO SHOW HOW WELL THEY CAN RUN THE CITY AND STATE..INSTEAD,THIS WAS THEIR COLLAPSE...AND YES...ALL OF THEM IN LOUISANA FAILED. If it were a company, they would all have been fired and deservedly so..not given a job requiring more responsibility..IE..Nagin..and then decry when they have no plan...and all that horse shit about chocolate city...imagine a white guy saying the reverse...people here on this blog would emotionally crack up more than they are now...
The Feds should and do provide money..but they can not cave you from your self or your own inactions to help yourself...but they should be available to help in a general way..with advice, cash and bulk equipment to help (helicopters)with a job that is too big and short on time for one entitiy alone(the partnership I was refering too earlier)...the FEDS should help with killing off competing regulations and should clear away beurocratic hurdles...not micro management, which they are the worst at ...
Posted by john maasch at 08/30/2006 @ 2:55pm
Correction.."The Feds should and do provide money..but they can not cave.." should read "save"
Posted by john maasch at 08/30/2006 @ 3:00pm
Mask -
Most people do not approach EVERY topic as you do, with a view towards the political ramifications and gamesmanship. Most people call it as they see it - and if that view is that Bush, his administration, FEMA and DHS should take more of the heat than the local officials, there is validity for it outside of political affiliations (BTW - although you guys keep repeating it over and over, I don't know too many people completely absolving Nagin).
To me it's pretty straightforward - expectations and whether those expectations were met after Katrina. I CAN look back and acknowledge mistakes Nagin made, but given that 80% of his city was underwater, I wouldn't have expected him or anyone else in his situation to handle everything alone or even that well. But when the entire structure of local government is shattered by this disaster, I DO expect that an intact Federal government CAN and SHOULD step in - and that they execute this without failure.
p.s. on the blame-game spectrum, Personally I would put Blanco in between. I think she played politics and bureaucrat when fast action was needed, but early on Bush or Chertoff needs to step in say enough and demand some action, take control, etc.
Posted by Hman23 at 08/30/2006 @ 3:01pm
Maasch, well stated, although it will fall on deaf ears and blind ( blinded by hatred ) eyes. By the way, are you also a plant by some wing-nut organization?
Posted by barry25 at 08/30/2006 @ 3:02pm
Posted by HMAN23 08/30/2006 @ 3:01pm
HMAN, if it was devoid of political gamesmanship...then I wouldn't have any aspect of politiccal gamesmanship to put on it.
But it does....uptil the recent "Republicanization" of Ray Nagin (a la ACORN and friends), the blogs ONE YEAR AGO TODAY were ripe with endless attacks on Bush, FEMA and the Fed (deserveded ones as I see)...and when somebody would mention Blanco or Nagin, endless apologisms or obfuscations about their complicity.
And it was ALL political.
And they were NOT a "very thin minority" (Posted by HMAN23 08/30/2006 @ 10:26am), but every blog from Slate to Daily Kos to the Air America blogs (plus a few TV and radio pundits)....I know, I was there!
I also see nothing wrong with it...if it's admitted to and you're willing to weather the charge of hypocrisy. Ignoring YOUR side's faults while playing up the OTHER side's is as old as politics.
But let's not deny it happens...or claim it's a "tiny fraction".
Posted by Mask at 08/30/2006 @ 3:15pm
Maasch, well stated, although it will fall on deaf ears and blind ( blinded by hatred ) eyes. By the way, are you also a plant by some wing-nut organization?
Posted by BARRY25 08/30/2006 @ 3:02pm | ignore this person
Barry,
Yes,
I am a seminar poster from the right wing conspiracy Hillary discussed on TV in her pink dress, under the portrait of Lincoln, with the ever brillant Katie Couric(of the "What America really wants to know , Harrison, Is will you direct?" fame)and as such..I lie. Always, and I hate America, too...and I want everybodys money tax free as I am a greedy selfish member of the private sector. I am an imperialist, too..there's more, of course..and you?
Posted by john maasch at 08/30/2006 @ 3:20pm
Ya, all those listed along with "war-monger",the always effective "racist", and last but not least, a "hamster" ( a-la will, "evangelic satanic christians are by far the most dangerous religion in the world" or something to that effect) !
Posted by barry25 at 08/30/2006 @ 3:29pm
Maasch -
The defenders of Bush and the federal gov't cannot have it both ways. When discussing Nagin and the buses, you want to talk about three days before the hurricane hit and attack Nagin for not getting 100% evacuation YET when the light is shown on FEMA and Bush it's "NOBODY forsaw that the levees would breech or that the flooding would be THIS bad."
Like I told Mask, it's about expectations, and nobody should expect that the mayor of ANY city N.O.'s size is going to get everyone out before landfall. So while one can look back and say he should have done this or that, it should not have mattered. FEMA should have been prepared for that expected reality and they were not.
And as for housing. ghettos, etc. I am not sure where you are going. Nobody is talking about replicating the ghettos and the problems with them. But, there were people who lived in government-subsidized housing. I am curious what "setting up the conditions for a ghetto" means to you - what are those conditions, poor people who need government housing? Just want to make clear you advocate erasing them from considertation.
And again Maasch, whomever failed in La. should be blamed on a individual basis. Sure, in this case, you get to use the "event bad" = "Democrats bad" rationale but I am wondering, do I get to play that same game as well on other issues? Careful now . . .
Posted by Hman23 at 08/30/2006 @ 3:31pm
MASK -
First of all, "most people" do not post to blogs. Second, the ones that did, with a few execptions, recognized that Nagin and Blanco had much to answer for. If any attention was focused on the feds to a greater extreme it was for the non-political reason that it was expected that the federal government would do more than it did given the situation - and by failing in the way they did, received most of the anger - not a CRAZY proposition.
Posted by Hman23 at 08/30/2006 @ 3:40pm
First of all, "most people" do not post to blogs. ---this will come as a surprise to those on them, who claim to "represent the true majority" (a la Ned Lamont).
Second, the ones that did, with a few execptions, recognized that Nagin and Blanco had much to answer for. ----NOW, not then. THEN it was "Nagin and Blanco couldn't do anything" or "They did everything possible"
Posted by HMAN23 08/30/2006 @ 3:40pm |
a taste----
http://www.slate.com/
?id=3936&tp=ballotbox&action=next&date=09/10/2005%2 010:23:26
Posted by Mask at 08/30/2006 @ 3:51pm
HMAN,
"you get to use the "event bad" = "Democrats bad" rationale but I am wondering, do I get to play that same game as well on other issues? Careful now . . . "
Actually , I said ...Bad event occured in Louisiana at the time Dems in charge of Louisiana, and nothing done in Louisiana by those in charge in Louisiana= Bad dems in Louisiana...nows this is the last half of equation...Bad events passed + Same Dems still in charge+ blaming Feds while doing nothing or no plan in Louisiana=bad Dems in Louisiana.
Yes you get to play...
I'll help you..
Repubs in charge of national economy =they are responsible for spending our money into the shit house...and those responsible should be fired..but not replaced with bigger tax raising spending Demoncrats...the public can decide...this is a national issue with the feds..on the other hand the over all economy is doing quite well under any total measuring stick.
I am refering to the State issues and a disaster many saw coming...it is too easy to hammer the feds and ignore the state in charge..my only point in this part of my post first line of action never showed up.....
" "NOBODY forsaw that the levees would breech or that the flooding would be THIS bad." "
agreed, but, all knew the levees could not withstand ccat 4 or 5,and they have admitted errors and are trying to help.I don't see a blame game occuring at the fed level...look the Feds make an easy target, even for me, but they may not be the totally inept culprit here, especially now,....a year later..
public housing? yes, it is needed, but can you name one that hasen't fallen into crime zones?
Posted by john maasch at 08/30/2006 @ 4:24pm
The fed on many levels fail and succeed..however, in this case, the State of Louisiana failed at all levels and all events...and at this time the entire levels are filled with dems and few repubs...the dems are still in charge, in fact same ones...and still they fail..it is not a good reflection...the Dems may not want to make Katrina a running point in November...it is a knife that has 2 edges..
Posted by john maasch at 08/30/2006 @ 4:30pm
Posted by BARRY25 08/29/2006 @ 10:56pm
Who's really in denial here?
Oddly, you have chosen the one thing we actually agree on, to argue about. Fundamentalist muslims are extremely dangerous.
Nothing is as dangerous as fundamentalist religionist. This would INCLUDE christians, jews, etc.
Are you a christian? Would this explain your myopic denial about your sanity as well?
Eric
Posted by Malcontent at 08/30/2006 @ 5:40pm
Malcontent, I believe in Christ, do not attend/belong to any church, and agree that any fandamentalist religion can be very dangerous yet there is only one religion on the face of this planet that preaches: either you convert or you die! You are in denial, sir! No factions of Christians, Buddhists, Jews, are sawing off the heads of inncoent civilians, blowing themselves up to kill innocent women and children, teaching their children to kill innocent women and children, killing other muslims who don't fit their idea of who a muslim should be. Radical Islam is a culture of death, period! No other religion comes close, none! If this is hard for you to understand, you're are incopetent moron, and may you be the next victim of these oxygen-thieves! I am sick and tired of having the same argument with you sheep. You're morons, it's just that simple, no different that the appeasers ( France ) was in dealing with Hitler. So, if there are gonna be more victims of the culture of death, let it be those who deny it exists and who facilitate it!
Posted by barry25 at 08/30/2006 @ 6:00pm
ILL, I gotta laugh. DRHAMMER talks about me wanting "to come here solely to argue"....and yet that's EXACTLY what you do on half my posts.
What is the ANSWER?
Posted by MASK 08/30/2006 @ 09:21am
the government entity hypothetically fails (see: mask)
you know, I gotta laugh. you ask questions that I provide answers.
but you never answer my questions. You just try to change the subject
Posted by Will C. at 08/30/2006 @ 9:10pm
Liberal morons, please go to www.snopes.com/katrina/politics/carcrush.asp to find out how great a mayor Ray Nagin really is. He was offered 5 million to allow a company to come in and remove all the abandoned/damaged vehicles and refused. Instead, Ray " chocolate city " Nagin opted for a plan that will cost the city 23 million for a net cost of 28 million to the city of New Orleans. And this incopetent moron is asking American taxpayers for 50 billion to fix his mess. I say, at the very least, the Bush administration should deduct 28 million from whatever relief money Nagin is given and let the financial genius figure out for himself how to make up the rest. Again, more proof that liberals don't know how to manage money, gov't, or even school buses. The people of N.O. voted this moron back in, so they should have to suffer the consequences of the decisions he has made. 28 million subracted from all relief from the federal gov't is justified in this case. Maybe, when the people of N.O. feel the ramifications of thier poor choice at the polls, we'll finally see change!
Posted by barry25 at 08/30/2006 @ 10:55pm
snopes.com... and fox news... and a company from texas
Bwah Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Posted by Will C. at 08/30/2006 @ 11:07pm
Do you deny the story is factually accurate? Be a man and answer a simple yes or no! Either way I got you backed into yet another corner! Ahhhh, my little bitch just continues to set himself up for clownin'! Answer yes, and I'll prove you wrong with facts. Answer no, you look like a fool for implying that fox or snopes is bending the truth even though it's proven fact. My little hamster!
Posted by barry25 at 08/30/2006 @ 11:24pm
Do you deny the story is factually accurate? Be a man and answer a simple yes or no!
Posted by BARRY25 08/30/2006 @ 11:24pm
I'm certain the story is factually accurate. I'm also certain the story omits key facts.
Posted by Will C. at 08/31/2006 @ 09:07am
there's always a catch to the thing that too good to be true
Posted by Will C. at 08/31/2006 @ 09:07am
but you never answer my questions. You just try to change the subject
Posted by WILL C. 08/30/2006 @ 9:10pm
Ask me one.
Posted by Mask at 08/31/2006 @ 09:59am
Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 08/31/2006 @ 08:00am
Regardless of cause and effect, a recent article (I'll try to link it) showed that there IS a distinct "baby bust" problem for the Left.
The Right, by tradition, belief, or whatever...is having more kids statistically. The Left, by tradition, belief, or whatever...is having LESS.
Ergo, to be blunt, liberalism is being "bred out of existance", as the number of kids raised in conservative environment rises, and those raised in liberal environments falls.
Posted by Mask at 08/31/2006 @ 10:02am
Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 08/31/2006 @ 09:28am
BTW, your "key phrase" in your discussion of Christian vs Muslim violence...is "modern day".
Historically, almost 95% until the end of the 19th Century, most of the violence commited was on the part of those calling themselves "Christian", not "Muslim".
Posted by Mask at 08/31/2006 @ 10:04am
The Right, by tradition, belief, or whatever...is having more kids statistically. The Left, by tradition, belief, or whatever...is having LESS.
it should read "..is having fewer.
this is simple minded beyond belief, no one is born liberal or conservative, c'mon now, don't waste your time and ours with tripe such as this.
Posted by johannesrolf at 08/31/2006 @ 10:10am
Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 08/31/2006 @ 11:03am
Good....RIO didn't yesterday. (he noted (paraphrasing) that "Muslims have been violent oppressors for 1400 years"...a false statement).
And not sure that modern day Islam produces a larger percent...or if they produce a MORE PROMINENT percent. And this can't be traced to the religion, but the NATIONS that most Muslims live under.
After all RWANDA is 95% Christian....so was it Christianity or national tribalism that caused the Genocide of the 90s?
Posted by Mask at 08/31/2006 @ 11:09am
so was it Christianity or national tribalism that caused the Genocide of the 90s?
since the conflict was between Hutus and Tutsi, it was obviously tribal in nature. why spend time pondering the obvious?
mask, you might consider a hiatus from posting, get out a bit more, enjoy what ever summer there is left, your posts are skirting irrelevance when they aren't wallowing in it.
Posted by johannesrolf at 08/31/2006 @ 11:13am
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 08/31/2006 @ 11:13am
I'm sorry, JOHANN....do I have to spell it out, when I'm being RHETORICAL in my question.
I KNOW it was tribalism. I was trying to make a point to MARYBRET, that she can't apply this broad brush of "Islam is a religion of violence" simply because it comes out of countries that are Islamic.
Rwanda is Christian....Turkey is Islamic. Which one would YOU have rather lived in around April-July 1994?
Posted by Mask at 08/31/2006 @ 12:20pm
Liberal ==> (causes) more education + less children
it should read ...fewer children
Posted by johannesrolf at 08/31/2006 @ 12:29pm
Posted by MASK 08/31/2006 @ 10:02am
That link I promised...
[[http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008831]]
Posted by Mask at 08/31/2006 @ 1:06pm
MASK,
"Ergo, to be blunt, liberalism is being "bred out of existance", as the number of kids raised in conservative environment rises, and those raised in liberal environments falls. "
That doesn't hold true in the minority community nor the Mexican immigrant community. The familys of both black and hispanic familys have more children per house hold than your basic suburban white liberal, which I assume is your base measurement.
If you add the 95% Black community to the liberal columns in voting and the effort by the Dems to have ilegals vote or at the least have no form of ID required to vote, which has the same effect, then your number of conservatives are in deep trouble and will eventually lose all future elections. This will happen, in my humble opinion.
Posted by john maasch at 08/31/2006 @ 1:17pm
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 08/31/2006 @ 1:17pm
Couple of false assumptions, JOHN...
1. There is no "population boom" among African-Americans. Even if you take the old stories of "welfare queens having a dozen kids so she gets more welfare"...welfare reform in 1995 ended that. Plus, there's actually a DROP in African-American population, due to poorer health care and more men in jail (we can debate those issues later).
2. Latinos are not monolithically "liberal". As a matter of fact, they tend to be social conservatives (as Catholics) and fairly moderate on economic issues. Bill Richardson, leading Latino Dem (and a hopeful for 2008) put the NM National Guard on the border WELL before Dubya did. He also cut taxes.
3. The LEADERSHIP...that's got to count too. Ralph Reed and Tucker Carlson's wives may be popping out the kids, but except for Bobby Kennedy Jr, the liberal elites are holding it down to one or two at most. (Lead by example on the "population problem", I suppose).
Which means in 25-35 years, those dozens of Reed, Carlson, Kristol, etc kids will outnumber the few vanden Heuvel, Corn, Feingold, or Boxer kids. And apparently there won't even BE any Nader or Kucinich kids to play with at all!
Posted by Mask at 08/31/2006 @ 3:21pm
Mask, this is drivel, why pursue?
Posted by johannesrolf at 08/31/2006 @ 3:37pm
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 08/31/2006 @ 3:37pm
Demographics and politics are "drivel"?
Posted by Mask at 08/31/2006 @ 3:40pm
Which means in 25-35 years
this is drivel.disguised as demographics and politics.
Posted by johannesrolf at 08/31/2006 @ 3:58pm
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 08/31/2006 @ 3:58pm
Okay, JOHANNES...what's the flaw in Mr Brooks' article?
Posted by Mask at 08/31/2006 @ 4:43pm
Okay, JOHANNES...what's the flaw in Mr Brooks' article?
what article?
I don't know how old you are, but I would be particularly cautious as to what will happen in 35 years from now. I for one am quite certain that I will not be around to check the accuracy of my predictions.
you may pontificate all you like, I'll call them as I see them. when you have a subject I will be glad to discuss. this is not one of them.
Posted by johannesrolf at 08/31/2006 @ 5:38pm
if you are referring to an article by David Brooks, I do not read this individual at all, I consider him an idiot.
Posted by johannesrolf at 08/31/2006 @ 5:40pm
on the topic of New Orleans reconstruction, I would like to draw a historical parallel with the Berlin airlift, where in a gargantuan effort a blockaded city was kept alive. every three minutes a plane landed in Berlin, filled with heating fuel, food and other essentials. this went on for a long time, until the blockade was lifted. I'm sure it was a very expensive effort. quite a contrast with the attention paid to New Orleans. the Berlin airlift was undertaken to spite the soviets in the cold war. makes one almost nostalgic for the cold war. if only we could fix New Orleans to spite somebody.
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/01/2006 @ 2:26pm
the airlift went on for a year.
Posted by johannesrolf at 09/01/2006 @ 2:36pm