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RedditThe announcement by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas that he will not run for reelection is the exclamation point on the utter collapse of the Obama adminstration's Middle East policy. Launched to great expectations -- the appointment of George Mitchell, Obama's Cairo declaration that the plight of the Palestinians is intolerable -- it is now in complete disarray. It is, without doubt, the first major defeat for Obama's hope-and-change foreign policy.
Here's how it unraveled. First, Obama began a test of strength with Israel over that country's policy of illegal settlements, an expansion of its occupation of the West Bank driven by extremist, right-wing settlers who are fanatical, Bible-believing cultists who think that Israel has some God-given right to that territory. The settler-kooks -- indeed, one of their past leaders was named Rabbi Kook -- are supported by ultra-hardliners in Israel's security establishment, who see the West Bank as strategic depth in Israel's defense posture. What happened after Obama told Israel it had to stop settlements? Nothing. Score: Netanyahu 1, Obama 0.
Next, the Obama adminstration capitulated, refusing to insist on any penalty for Israel's defiant intransigence. Not even a hint of any retaliation by the United States to enforce what it had called the path to a peace deal. No talk of reducing US aid to Israel, or cutting back on US-Israeli military cooperation, or anything. Score: Netanyahu 2, Obama 0.
Then, while all this was going on, Obama hinted that he might announce, this fall, something like a comprehensive US plan for the Middle East. Everyone knows what a solution looks like: withdrawal by Israel from the West Bank, dismantling of the settlements, an end to the Gaza embargo, the division of Jerusalem, some swapping of land to account for slight changes in borders (especially around the capital), and a formula to account for the Palestinians' right-of-return, involving financial compensation -- plus security arrangements. But months later, Obama has refused to even hint at his own plan for the region, caving in to Israel's demands that all of that be saved for "negotiations." Score: Netanyahu 3, Obama 0.
Finally, the United States cravenly supported Israel over the Goldstone Report on Gaza, the report that accused Israel (and Hamas) of war crimes during the December-January conflict there. Score: Netanyahu 4, Obama 0.
Secretary of State Clinton then put the final icing on the rotten cake, praising Netanyahu, an extremist, far-right ultra-nationalist, for his decision to expand, not halt, settlements. Clinton's blunder, which shocked and stunned Palestinians and Arab leaders, represented the ultimate cave-in to Netanyahu and Co. Final score: Netanyahu 5, Obama 0.
Reports the New York Times today:
"Mrs. Clinton's visit, which she characterized as a success, sowed anger and confusion among Palestinians and other Arabs after she praised as 'unprecedented' the offer by the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, to slow down, but not stop, construction of Jewish settlements in the West Bank."
One of the Palestinians' most experienced, veteran deal-makers, Nabil Shaath, a Fatah old-timer said of Obama's collapse:
"There was high expectation when he arrived on the scene. Now there is a total retreat, which has destroyed trust instead of building trust."
Abbas may or may not reconsider his decision, and of course the elections that are supposed to take place in January are still in limbo over the inability of Fatah and Hamas to strike a deal. But, by refusing to compel Israel to make a real offer to the Palestinians, the United States has once again shafted Palestinian moderates like Abbas, who can't credibly claim to have won anything for their constituents. In so doing, Obama is fueling the extremists, bomb-makers, and rocket launchers in Hamas, a fundamentalist, Muslim Brotherhood-founded movement that wants no compromise. Heck of a job, Baracky!
Abbas said that he was "surprised" -- bitterly angry and really pissed off, is more accurate, I am sure -- by Clinton's comments on Israel's settlements policy. And Clinton, asked about Abbas' move, delivered an insouciant fuck-you to Abbas: "We talked about his own political future. I look forward to working with President Abbas in any new capacity."
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Robert Dreyfuss
A chronicle of America's adventures in foreign policy and national security.
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Obama treats Israel the way he treats the big Wall St banks, with tender loving care.
Maybe that's Obama &Co's idea of change, but few progressives will share it. Look for their opinions to take effect Election Day '10 & '12, when they vote for progressives or stay home. Obama behaves as if progressives have no where else to go, but to vote for him regardless; he may be in for some big surprises.
Posted by sloper at 11/06/2009 @ 09:12am
NICHOLS: ".....Nabil Shaath, a Fatah old-timer said of Obama's collapse:
"There was high expectation when he arrived on the scene. Now there is a total retreat, which has destroyed trust instead of building trust."
.....Heck of a job, Baracky!"
Mr. Nichols, I think you will be saying "Heck of a job, Baracky", a lot, and, at an increasing pace!
That load of Magic, seems to be wearing off, no?
I don't think in the foreign policy arena, anybody trusts BHO, not even......HIMSELF!
Posted by Happy at 11/06/2009 @ 09:24am
NICHOLS: "....the United States cravenly supported Israel over the Goldstone Report on Gaza, the report that accused Israel (and Hamas) of war crimes during the December-January conflict there."
Now, why did you put parenthesis around "and Hamas"? A subconscious or conscious acknowledgment that the Report was a UN setup to go after Israel from the get-go?
Posted by Happy at 11/06/2009 @ 09:26am
Posted by Happy at 11/06/2009 @ 09:24am
So Happy, you agree with Mr Dreyfuss...
or just can't bring yourself to NOT criticize Obama even when he does something you agree with???
Posted by Mask at 11/06/2009 @ 09:28am
STOP THE JIHAD!
EXPEL ALL THE PALESTINIAN SAVAGES FROM GAZA AND THE WEST BANK!
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 09:29am
BTW, does anybody here NOT know how this thread is going to break down?
Larry/Rio/rightwingnut/etc. on one side...
OV/excalibur/etc. on the other?
"AIPAC Zionist stooges" versus "Jew-haters who want to bring back the Holocaust"?
Posted by Mask at 11/06/2009 @ 09:31am
Posted by Mask at 11/06/2009 @ 09:31am |
I smell a caged deathmatch!
In the red corner (heheh)...King David and Solomon...the dynamic duo fresh from distributing whiskey-pete to all the little boys and girls.
In the opposite corner...Hussein Arab and Saddam...the effervescents from the fertile crescent.
No (bank account) holds barred!
Posted by snowball777 at 11/06/2009 @ 09:55am
US AND ISRAEL WANT THE PEACE TREATY AS PER THEIR TERMS AND THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO PALESTINIANS(EXCEPT PRESIDENT ABBAS).UN AND US ARE HELPLESS AGAINST THE ZIONIST MIGHT. THE RIGHT WING MEDIA ALSO HELP THE ISRAEL. NO UN RESOLUTIONS HAS PASSED AGAINST ISRAEL DUE TO THE VETO POWER OF US AND UK. EVEN THE GOLDSTONE REPORT ON ISRAELI WAR CRIMES ON GAZA IS NEGLETED BY THE SUPER POWERS.
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/06/2009 @ 10:11am
RIGHTWINGNUTCASE, ISRAEL IS THE AGGRESSOR COUNTRY.THEY MUST LEAVE THE OCCUPIED LAND.RESISTANCE IS NOT TERRORISM.
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/06/2009 @ 10:19am
Obama Fails in Middle East
posted by Robert Dreyfuss on 11/06/2009 @ 08:56am
The Middle East mess has been going on since before the President was born, and will most likely be in the headlines his grandchildren will read over their morning coffee and baguettes in their retirement homes.
There is a story about a young research physicist who asked a famous professor what would be a good area of study. The advice? "Don't work on a problem that Einstein worked on ... and failed to solve."
Critizing the President for failing to solve this particular problem is like sitting on the porch of a house in a reclaimed cypress swamp in Louisiana and saying that the President could do something about hurricanes, if he only worked a bit harder.
Posted by Mistral at 11/06/2009 @ 10:23am
VISIT.WWW.ISRAELSOCCUPATION.INFO WWW.GILAD.CO.UK. DON'T WATCH JUNKS LIKE CNN,BBC,FOX etc.etc. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/06/2009 @ 10:26am
Great piece. It's a sad day when telling the truth is what constitutes exceptional journalism, but that's the sick state of affairs these days in our over-the-top racist propaganda machine known as the American Media.
But thank you for doing the right thing, especially the part about our reptilian Secretary of State.
Posted by DejaVu at 11/06/2009 @ 10:43am
A PEACE IS POSSIBLE IF US AND IT'S ALLIES STAND BY THE JUSTICE.THEY TRYING TO FORCE THE PEACE TREATY AS PER ISRAELI TERMS.THAT IS WHY IT IS FAILING.THEY EVEN CAN'T STOP THE SETTLEMENT EXPANSIONS AND THE FORCIFUL EVICTION OF PALESTINIANS.
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/06/2009 @ 10:45am
Obama is a Jew...... in spirit and probably in ethnicity as well. Don't hold your breath for a change in our policies in the Middle East.
Posted by DejaVu at 11/06/2009 @ 10:49am
Who are we to impose peace on war loving nations? Both sides are at fault (Goldstone Report) and both sides deserve each other.
Posted by jfair at 11/06/2009 @ 10:53am
obama is a jew
posted by dejavu at 11/06/2009 @ 10:49am
aren't you supposed to follow a statement like this with the obligqtory:
"...not that there's anything wrong with that!"
.
.
.
.
oh no! the upper case letters... they've... been pirated again!
Posted by Mistral at 11/06/2009 @ 10:57am
Obama is a Jew...... in spirit and probably in ethnicity as well. Don't hold your breath for a change in our policies in the Middle East.
Posted by DejaVu at 11/06/2009 @ 10:49am
Anti-semitic statements like that add nothing to the debate and certainly do not help the Palestinian cause or the fight against Zionism.
I don't really give a crap whether you are an anti-semite or not, but if you are, please keep those sentiments to yourself.
Posted by cka2nd at 11/06/2009 @ 11:00am
Larry/Rio/rightwingnut/etc. on one side...
OV/excalibur/etc. on the other?
"AIPAC Zionist stooges" versus "Jew-haters who want to bring back the Holocaust"?
Posted by Mask at 11/06/2009 @ 09:31am | ignore this person | warn this person
Excuse me?
For a week now, I have been critical of the 'pant suit wearing John Bolton' Bama appointed as SOS. Even mainstream media hints at Bama's failure at even-handedness, and moderate Israeli press thinks Bama/Clinton have permanently squandered perceived good will occassioned by Bama's false promises to the Muslim world.
Bama is just another "black man" trojan horse used by Jews, a fact that the American Muslim community is painfully aware of. Jews have used the black community to ride into power on "liberalism's" coattails for decades. Do notice that Jews, today, are more similar to conservative WASPS - and the rise of Neo-Conservatism is correlated to increasing and disproportionate Jewish presence in our federal government, and at all levels of society. The average Jew makes double what the average American does.
Mask - you have no problem bringing terrorism home to this Country. I am going to hold you personally responsible - past and present.
You do not want to talk about the problem because you are the problem.
Posted by OneVote at 11/06/2009 @ 11:02am
But, by refusing to compel Israel to make a real offer to the Palestinians, the United States has once again shafted Palestinian moderates like Abbas, who can't credibly claim to have won anything for their constituents.
posted by Robert Dreyfuss on 11/06/2009 @ 08:56am
Calling Abbas a "moderate" is like saying that a murderer is still basically "good". Abbas has NEVER deviated from the PLO/Fatah charter to seek the destruction of Israel. He has maintained that position when speaking to Arab audiences.
You don't have to do any lengthy research to uncover this. Simply to to 110th CONGRESS 1st Session, H. RES. 758
<Whereas on October 3, 2006, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said, `It is not required of Hamas, or of Fatah, or of the Popular Front to recognize Israel.';
Whereas on February 9, 2007, President Mahmoud Abbas openly signed the Mecca Agreement with Hamas, a terrorist organization, which does not recognize Israel and calls `for confronting the occupation' of Israel;
Whereas in May 2006, President Mahmoud Abbas endorsed the `Prisoner's Plan', a document produced by jailed Palestinian terrorists, that calls for continued terrorism against Israel, does not accept Israel's existence as a Jewish state, and abrogates Palestinian obligations under the Declaration of Principles, signed at Washington, DC, on September 13, 1993, (commonly referred to as the `Oslo Accords'), and the 2003 Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (commonly referred to as the `Roadmap for Peace');
continued
Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 11:03am
posted by Robert Dreyfuss on 11/06/2009 @ 08:56am
continued on HR 758
<Resolved, That the House of Representatives--
(1) urges Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, who is also Chairman of his Fatah party, to officially abrogate the 10 articles in the Fatah Constitution that call for Israel's destruction and terrorism against Israel, oppose any political solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and label Zionism as racism; and
(2) condemns the continuing existence of these articles as part of the Fatah Constitution.>
http://tinyurl.com/yep8ek2
Arutz-7, November 12, 2008.
<Palestinian Authority Chairman and Fatah leader Mahmoud Abbas, speaking in Ramallah in memory of his predecessor Yasser Arafat, praised "the path of the shahids [martyrs] -the path we cherish." He added, "It is aimed at upholding the Palestinians' nationalist and sovereign resolutions."
Abbas told thousands at the rally, "The Palestinian leadership will continue to follow Yasser Arafat's path until a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital is established." Arafat carried out or ordered dozens of terrorist attacks before he died four years ago
http://www.likud.nl/extr470.html
Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 11:06am
Why would anyone have expected different. Obama has failed to change anything. Here comes the cycle again.
Posted by jobbo at 11/06/2009 @ 11:43am
One Vote, if the Palestinians got their own state, it would be a brutal Saddamite dictatorship committed to Sharia law and war on Israel. It would be a terrorist training camp and AQ sponsor. We know this because the inferior Palestinian savages have repeatedly stated that this is what they want in polls. As such, giving them their own state will only strengthen the jihadists.
The real way to crush the jihadist movement is to fund, arm, train, and give military assistance on a grand scale to the Iranian resistance; declare the Iranian government illegitimate; do whatever else necessary to destroy the Iranian government; obliterate, from high altitude and long distance, all known Saudi military assets, all known and suspected Saudi terrorist training camps, all Saudi government buildings, all Saudi mosques and madrassahs, and the residences of all Saudi-affiliated leaders, imams, clerics, and government officials when they are most likely to be occupied (mosques during the day and residences at night) before occupying Saudi Arabia with overwhelming force and making it a free country; leave Afghanistan and let the Taliban mass it's forces together for a takeover, then destroy them almost completely with the most massive assault our government can carry out; and severely restrict immigration from the Third World.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 12:10pm
Now wait a minute Robert, you used to say Bush failed in the Middle East.
Now, Obama too?
So who do you reccomend to solve this problem.
Maybe Chinggis Khan- He'd simply set down a no fighting rule and slaughter anyone who disobeyed it. period. end of discussion. That would work. I mean think about it. You'd either have no fighting or no people-which means no fighting!
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 11/06/2009 @ 12:10pm
The average Jew makes double what the average American does.
Posted by OneVote at 11/06/2009 @ 11:02am
Documentation-show us the evidence to back up your anti-semitic rant
Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 12:19pm
Abbas' threat is an empty threat and nothing to get excited about. He will run, but maybe it would be better if he didn't. Abbas gets credit for rejecting militancy for diplomacy, but his administration still incites the population with false accusations against Israel (see the recent bogus claims that the Zionists allegedly were attempting to take over the Temple Mount and were provoking a crisis.) Also, he refuses to signal to the Palestinians that the right of return and the demand for all of East Jerusalem will have to be compromised for a peace treaty. Such a signal not only is necessary to prepare the Palestinians to support such negotiations, but would be the signal many centrist Israelis are waiting for to be able to believe again in the possibility for peace (a belief that was extinquished by Arafat refusing to respond to Barak's offer at Camp David except to reject it out of hand, and the ensuing commencement of the Second Intifada which was joined by the Palestinian police who were armed pursuant to the terms of the Oslo Agreement.)
It takes two to make peace. Both Israel and the PA share the blame for their failure to end this tragedy and finally put a stop to the suffering, destruction, hate and death that this conflict has caused.
Posted by gren at 11/06/2009 @ 12:21pm
That's because the average Jew is more intelligent than and creates more wealth than does the average American, stupid. Liberals hate success, which makes Jew-hatred a perfect prejudice for them.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 12:23pm
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 12:10pm | ignore this person | warn this person
clearly you are an anti-semitic provacateur who seeks to provoke and incite opposition to Israel through your crude charicature of an extremist racist Zionist lunatic.
Be gone, and take your vileness with you.
Posted by gren at 11/06/2009 @ 12:24pm
Obama ought to know his limitation!
AIPAC boasted once that they could collect 70 senators' signatures on a napkin in 24 hours.
Considering that Obama needs 60 of those senators to pass any of his programs shows the futility of standing to Israel.
The Israeli lobby is in full control of our Congress; America's interest always comes second to that of Israel.
Posted by CripThink at 11/06/2009 @ 12:38pm
Posted by snowball777 at 11/06/2009 @ 09:55am
There's Dastu off the turnbuckle with a back smash!
Rightwingnutcase flies into the ropes and smashes onto the mat.
Larry/antisoc using the Sleeper hold....but Deja Vu hits him with the folding chair!!!!
Mean Gene Okurland...what do you think?
Posted by Mask at 11/06/2009 @ 12:41pm
"I don't really give a crap whether you are an anti-semite or not, but if you are, please keep those sentiments to yourself.
Posted by cka2nd at 11/06/2009 @ 11:00am"
I'm 1/4 Jewish, SFB. Maybe it's the 1/4 that's not brain dead.
Posted by DejaVu at 11/06/2009 @ 12:52pm
"and the rise of Neo-Conservatism is correlated to increasing and disproportionate Jewish presence in our federal government, and at all levels of society"
Yes, why ARE Jews (along with East Asians) so disproportionately successful? Why aren't all groups equally successful with complete statistical equilibrium in accordance with racial quotas? It couldn't possibly be because some groups achieve more than others; there must be some hidden, sinister oppression holding back certain groups to the benefit of others. Obviously, to redress this, Jews and East Asians MUST be racially discriminated against, especially in academia, and standards MUST be lowered for the most unsuccessful groups (blacks and Hispanics) to guarantee "equal opportunity".
Occam's Razor isn't on your side.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 12:56pm
'Maybe Chinggis Khan- He'd simply set down a no fighting rule and slaughter anyone who disobeyed it.' -- Chip Thornton
'Nobody dies...without Ming's permission.' -- Ming The Merciless -- 'Flash Gordon'
Posted by HonestLiberal at 11/06/2009 @ 1:04pm
Righwingnutcase, what you and others like you fail to realize is that all peoples of all races are capable great things. There is no super race, only super individuals.
Posted by jfair at 11/06/2009 @ 1:17pm
"Righwingnutcase, what you and others like you fail to realize is that all peoples of all races are capable great things."
Actually, I agree with that. It hardly proves that there being more intelligent individuals with Jewish and East Asian backgrounds is a sign of sinister oppression of other groups.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 1:37pm
Documentation-show us the evidence to back up your anti-semitic rant
Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 12:19pm
"These political successes may well reflect our economic success. The median income in the United States is about $25,000 a year. That means that one half of all Americans earn more than that, and one half earn less. The median Jewish American income is double that, i.e., $50,000 a year."
Dr. Gerhard Falk - American Jews
'They also made more money than the average US citizen (46 percent of Jews in the US make more than $100,000 a year), and more than half of them said they believe the US should continue to be involved in world affairs'
New Study Claims US Jews Have Reasons to Be Proud
Reported: 16:30 PM - Jun/25/08
Arutz Sheva - Excerpt
Posted by OneVote at 11/06/2009 @ 1:58pm
Rightwingnutcase:
Aren't the Palestinians being oppressed by Israel?
Posted by jfair at 11/06/2009 @ 2:00pm
Posted by HonestLiberal at 11/06/2009 @ 1:04pm
Flash!....AH-AHHHHHH!
Posted by Mask at 11/06/2009 @ 2:11pm
Not at all.
Palestinians want a state in order to escalate the war on Israel.
They want to destroy Israel. Israel doesn't want to be destroyed. Israel has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and that includes the right to resist those who seek to take such privileges from it through physical force.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 2:12pm
"First, Obama began a test of strength with Israel over that country's policy of illegal settlements, an expansion of its occupation of the West Bank driven by extremist, right-wing settlers who are fanatical, Bible-believing cultists who think that Israel has some God-given right to that territory."
Really bad writing.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 2:17pm
I think you are making too much of Clinton's words. The US policy under Obama is still an end to the settlements as this is necessary for a two-state solution.
"Slowing down" is certainly a move in the right direction, and I think Obama will continue to urge more moves in this direction that will eventually end the settlements all together.
Israel has ALWAYS used the settlement issue as a bargaining chip to gain leverage in the peace negotiations. And at some point they will bargain this away to get what they think is a fair deal.
Posted by Metteyya at 11/06/2009 @ 2:17pm
Rightwingnutcase
The Palestinians were forced off their homeland by Zionist and forced to live as refugees. Only later to be walled in like livestock and burned to death by white phosphorous(Goldstone Report). Any cry for justice falls on the deaf ears of the US and the UN security council. How is that not Oppression?
Posted by jfair at 11/06/2009 @ 2:23pm
Really bad writing.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 2:17pm
Hey Nutcase,
Your hallucination BS is harming your cause. I am surprised that your Zionist friends are letting an idiot like you to go on with your stupid pontification.
Can you tell us next how did the Zionists come to Palestine to find no people there, then went on to build a shining city on the hill.
Posted by CripThink at 11/06/2009 @ 2:33pm
The only thing this page makes clear is that Americans, by and large, know Jack Squat about the history of Israel. Granted, it takes a little bit of work to research the subject, since some very powerful people with a Naziesque agenda who also have a hugely disproportionate say in information management in this country have made it difficult, to say the least. Try reading some of the racist rants of David Ben Gurion, Israel's founder, for starters. Just don't so it on a full stomach, as a word of advice. Chaim Weitzman is another one; try reading about his back-door dealings with the Rothschilds, the Jewish National Fund, Lord Balfour, etc. This is just a start and it's not even the beginning, of course.
I know it won't make any difference to Christians who are programmed to BELIEVE beyond rationality, but for those who can still think for themselves, it might just be a MAJOR awakening.
Posted by DejaVu at 11/06/2009 @ 2:46pm
Posted by DejaVu at 11/06/2009 @ 2:46pm
DejaVu,
You are presenting a valid argument.
The price tag for our ignorance of the ME is near 5 billions given to Israel annually. Please note that the cost of Iraq and Afghanistan is excluded from this calculation.
Posted by CripThink at 11/06/2009 @ 2:53pm
Posted by DejaVu at 11/06/2009 @ 2:46pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Is Jack Squat by any chance related to Jack Horner, or Jack-be-Quick, or Jack Sprout. Your characterization of history as the tale of good guys and bad guys is right out of Mother Goose Land.
Posted by gren at 11/06/2009 @ 2:54pm
It would be ONE thing if Arabs made claims and Jews made the opposite claims.
That is hardly the case.
Jews of character around the world point out that the Israelis are racist filth from the toilet who are disgracing world Jewry and committing hideous, inexcusable crimes. They are backed up in these assertions by unanimous reports of the human rights community.
Sorry, the whole world isn't crazy.
The Israelis are crazy and they have to be taken apart.
Posted by rykart at 11/06/2009 @ 3:10pm
I am so DAMN tired of people who hate Jews or Arabs posting on these threads, who ascribe specific traits to those peoples as a group, some shared savagery, corruption or mental illness, or whatever. I don't care if you are part of that group, or partially so. Nor do I care if you are bigoted - bigotry is no basis for holding a political point of view but far be it from me to tell you to be an asshole or not. However, expressions of bigotry are offensive, impolite, un-civilized and do NOT contribute a GOD-DAMNED (sorry, Larry) thing to a conversation.
So, if you just can't keep yourself from calling Palestinians savages or accusing Obama of being a Jew (as if that's a bad thing) or saying that ALL Israelis are crazy, then SHUT THE F*** UP!
If, however, you can make your point without including such crap, then please, type away.
I swear to God, I have never, ever complained to the moderators on this or any other website about a specific individual, but you SOB's are driving me to that point.
Posted by cka2nd at 11/06/2009 @ 3:28pm
"The Palestinians were forced off their homeland by Zionist and forced to live as refugees."
The Jews did not displace anyone, because no one permanently resided there. It was a land inhabited by nomadic, Bedouin tribes. The whole region was nothing but deserts and swamps. Only about 120,000 Arabs resided in an area that covered the territories, the state of Israel and Jordan. When Mark Twain visited the area, he wrote he found nothing but a wasteland. Israel did not go to war against a Palestinian state and occupy its land. Rather, Israel was attacked by six Arab countries at once. She defended herself, defeated her attackers, and won the so-called territories, not from the Palestinians, but from Jordan and Egypt. Jerusalem was never the capital of any state but Israel. It was certainly never the capital of a country that never existed (Palestine). Why should the Palestinians get any part of it? Because they want it? Because they have terrorists? Jerusalem, under the current Israeli control, is a free and open city. Israel, as a democracy, guarantees freedom of religion within its borders. Contrast this fact with areas that have come under Palestinian occupation. What percentage of Christians have left in recent years because they cannot stand the harassment and persecution? Most Arabs living in Palestine today are not indigenous to the region. It was not until after the Jews had changed deserts and swamps into a productive and thriving land that the Arabs started migrating there. Arafat himself was born and raised in Cairo, Egypt.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 3:28pm
Posted by cka2nd at 11/06/2009 @ 3:28pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Thank you.
Posted by gren at 11/06/2009 @ 3:36pm
Nutcase:
120,000 individuals hardly counts as nobody (if that figure is even correct). Mark Twain visited 100 years before Palestinian occupation. Besides, according to your logic, it would be acceptable if a foreign group settle in Yellowstone National Park and deem it their own country just because nobody is living there. Its nothing but geysers and pine trees. The Israelis have no legitimate claim to the land. I also do not condone the use of war and violence by the Palestinians, Israelis, or any other country. Killing is never justified.
Posted by jfair at 11/06/2009 @ 3:51pm
Besides, winning a war does not justify the oppression of displaced peoples.
Posted by jfair at 11/06/2009 @ 3:54pm
Posted by jfair at 11/06/2009 @ 3:51pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Jews legally purchased, moved to, and developed land. They moved to cities and lived and worked. The UN voted to partition land where no country existed into 2 states -- one being Israel, the other Palestine. What's illegitimate about their claim. The Palestinian claim to a state in the west Bank and Gaza is legitimated on the exact same basis.
Posted by gren at 11/06/2009 @ 3:55pm
Posted by gren at 11/06/2009 @ 3:55pm
Very good point gren. I concede that the Israelis have claim to the land. (Although not their new settlements) That does not justify the use of White Phosphorous, Civilian Shields, or the destruction of Infrastructure (i.e. hospitals) in the Gaza strip.
Posted by jfair at 11/06/2009 @ 4:11pm
Posted by jfair at 11/06/2009 @ 4:11pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Fair enough.
Posted by gren at 11/06/2009 @ 4:15pm
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 12:23pm
And of course such an incredibly narrow- minded sentiment is supposed to explain why the American Jewish community is noticeably further to the left than the American public at large, right?
Posted by nkurland at 11/06/2009 @ 4:37pm
The facts are the facts.
Jews and East Asians are noticeably and measurably more intelligent and successful than other groups, just as blacks are noticeably and measurably less intelligent and less successful than other groups.
You can draw from that whatever conclusions you like.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 5:04pm
They're more accomplished, sure. However, stretching that into a blanket statement claiming that they're inherently more intelligent is pure nonsense.
Posted by nkurland at 11/06/2009 @ 5:13pm
I never said they were "inherently" more intelligent.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 5:18pm
BTW, does anybody here NOT know how this thread is going to break down?
Larry/Rio/rightwingnut/etc. on one side...
OV/excalibur/etc. on the other?
Posted by Mask at 11/06/2009 @ 09:31am
plus
Mask/no one else. Sitting on the fence because he hasn't got a bloody clue what the conversation is about.
Come on Mask be bold and say something controversial. Otherwise you will end up with a chronically sore bum.
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/06/2009 @ 5:20pm
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 5:18pm | ignore this person | warn this person
That's like saying that because an inordinate number of wall street criminals are Jews, there is therefore a Jewish predisposition to financial fraud.
Most Jews are idiots just like most people are idiots. A handful of Jewish geniuses doesn't propel them into some exalted class or confer chosen people status on them, regardless of how the filth of israel attempt to spin the matter.
Posted by rykart at 11/06/2009 @ 5:28pm
The facts are the facts.
Jews and East Asians are noticeably and measurably more intelligent and successful than other groups, just as blacks are noticeably and measurably less intelligent and less successful than other groups.
You can draw from that whatever conclusions you like.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 5:18pm
Oh, of course not. I suppose its a mere coincidence that you keep making blanket statements like "Jews and East Asians are noticeably and measurably more intelligent and successful than other groups," But hey, that's not prejudiced since the self annointed color-blind winger is making the claim, right?
Posted by nkurland at 11/06/2009 @ 5:33pm
Actually, self-proclaimed.
Posted by nkurland at 11/06/2009 @ 5:34pm
"Most Jews are idiots just like most people are idiots"
True, but the average Jew does have a higher IQ than the average Palestinian; the average Asian has a higher IQ than the average white; the average white has a higher IQ than the average Hispanic; and the average black has the lowest IQ of all.
This may just be due to welfare and bad cultural ideas rather than innate differences. As I say, draw whatever conclusions from this that you wish to.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 5:35pm
"But hey, that's not prejudiced since the self annointed color-blind winger is making the claim, right?"
It's not prejudiced because all the empirical evidence supports the claim and rejecting it due to emotion requires a blatant refusal to embrace reason and accept the facts of reality.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 5:38pm
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 5:38pm
All you did was cite IQ, something highly dependent on environment. You then proceeded to ignore the fact that racial differences in IQ are in fact not based on genetics, or any inherent difference betweeen races or ethnic groups. Here's a brief opinion piece from someone who happens to have a knowledge of the topic:http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/opinion/09nisbett.html
Exactly which eugenicist are you getting your information from?
Posted by nkurland at 11/06/2009 @ 5:47pm
You can draw from that whatever conclusions you like. Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 5:04pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I wonder what conclusion you draw from the fact that virtually ALL high achievers in science, art and music are liberals. Indeed, the term "right wing intellectual" is very close to an oxymoron. About the closest they ever came to an intellectual was Wm Buckley. Pretty pathetic.
Posted by rykart at 11/06/2009 @ 6:05pm
"You then proceeded to ignore the fact that racial differences in IQ are in fact not based on genetics, or any inherent difference betweeen races or ethnic groups."
So, you acknowledge that these IQ differences do in fact clearly exist, but chastise me for not pointing out "the fact that racial differences in IQ are in fact not based on genetics," as if such a claim were a "fact". Then you direct me to an "opinion piece" in support of a view that you just stated was an objective matter of record.
Yet, I have never made any claim related to genetics in all of this discourse. Nevertheless, the "preemptive" defense continues to argue against charges that have yet to be made, even when I bend over backwards and say things like "this may just be due to welfare and bad cultural ideas rather than innate differences". Why so easily provoked and upset by my words, nkurland?
The truth is that no one really knows if these racial IQ differences are genetic or not. Don't be a man of faith. This matter has not been proven. Frankly, I'd bet on the other side if I were a gambling man, based on a brief comparison of even the most backward European country to even the most advanced African one, especially given that Africa is the richer continent in terms of natural resources.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 6:12pm
Most Jews are idiots just like most people are idiots. A handful of Jewish geniuses doesn't propel them into some exalted class or confer chosen people status on them, regardless of how the filth of israel attempt to spin the matter.
Posted by rykart at 11/06/2009 @ 5:28pm
You Americans certainly love colourful language. What is the "filth of israel"? Domestic and industrial waste?
My observation is that Israelis lives in a tiny pocket of a fairly useless portion of land that has virtually no natural resources. My guess is that is what the UN, cynically, thought when it gave it to them.
There are about 7.5 million Israelis in a land area of about 20,000 km2 and about 2.5 million Palestinians in about 6000 km2. That seems to me to be about a fair distribution of pretty useless land.
The only other factor is cultural significance and there seems little doubt that Israel has the superior cultural claim on historical grounds.
So what is all the fuss about?
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/06/2009 @ 6:13pm
"the term "right wing intellectual" is very close to an oxymoron."
I'm not so sure about that one. The left protests in support of radical feminism AND the Taliban. Its lack of cognitive ability is quite striking.
But, of course most artists are leftists, though little they produce is any good. That's quite fitting.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 6:21pm
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 6:12pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Childish and a very clumsy camouflage for your oft-expressed racism and hatred, particularly toward islamic peoples who, as I pointed out, have made some of the most extraordinary strides in thought of any culture you want to name.
More to the point, the differences in ability, cast of mind, talent, predilection, temperament, achievement are so much enormously greater within groups than between groups as to make any of the differences between races you claim to exist, totally meaningless in determining the mental abilities of a given individual, which is all that matters in the end.
A very short time ago, you saw VERY few women in highly mathematical areas of physics and cosmology. You could count them on one hand. Now there are a ton.
As to the Jews, they like to have it both ways. Einstein is typical of Jewish genius, but the far more plentiful Jewish filth like Bernie Madoff, Benjamin Netanyahu, Adam Sandler, Alan Slime-owitz or Mayer Landsky are somehow NOT representative. That's transparent hypocrisy.
Posted by rykart at 11/06/2009 @ 6:21pm
"Childish and a very clumsy camouflage for your oft-expressed racism and hatred"
I've rarely said anything you might call racist, and have never expressed hatred towards whole ethnic groups.
"particularly toward islamic peoples who, as I pointed out, have made some of the most extraordinary strides in thought of any culture you want to name."
Yeah, right.
The Persians do have a wonderful heritage to take great pride in, but Arabs have very little to be proud of about their past.
"More to the point, the differences in ability, cast of mind, talent, predilection, temperament, achievement are so much enormously greater within groups than between groups"
Boilerplate.
One might say the same thing of gender, but few would argue gender is a social construct (except for The Nation).
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 6:33pm
The left protests in support of radical feminism AND the Taliban. Its lack of cognitive ability is quite striking. Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 6:21pm | ignore this person | warn this person
as I say..rightists are pretty dumb, not to mention, pathologically dishonest. Could that be why the rightwing vermin in Washington empowered the Taliban and other religious psychotics in the first place, equipping them with weapons and even training to make them more insane than they were to start with?
Who are the anti-Taliban forces? Start with the Revolutionary Association of Women of Afghanistan (RAWA) --a leftist organization that has been in the trenches battling Taliban extremism decades before Americans could locate Afghanistan on a map.
Recently, my university hosted a huge scientific gala in which many noble prize winners and guiding lights in physics, biology and chemistry spoke. You could NOT for the life of you find a rightist among them. They are 100% liberal. Stephen Hawking was ill and had to speak by teleconference. He recently blasted the filth of Israel for their abominations in Gaza. He's anti-war and liberal. Einstein was anti-war and liberal. You can't really point to anyone who has done anything worthwhile in the sciences who is not.
Smart people are liberal.
Dumb people reject science, reject evolution, reject stem cell research, pray in their silly churches and vote for garbage like John McCain and Sarah Palin.
If I were you, I'd be more worried about the association of political bent with intelligence, than the pseudo-science of race and IQ.
Posted by rykart at 11/06/2009 @ 6:34pm
I never said they were "inherently" more intelligent.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 5:18pm
It's pretty obvious that within an ethnic grouping intelligence owes a lot to genetic factors. That is just saying physiology is inherited and is thus all genetic. Nurture or environment has to do with the exploitation of what has been inherited.
Back in the 70s IQ testing went out of favour. I noticed about that time that much was made of the fact that on average, Japanese consistently scored much higher than white Australians. That seems good enough reason to me to blame environmental factors . Probably all the Sushi they eat and say a bit of left over radiation from Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Oh yeah. Pull the other one. Simply more self serving drivel from the social "sciences". So still keep hoping grandad and his dad were highly intelligent. Which is not really fair or democratic. But that's life.
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/06/2009 @ 6:36pm
Robert Dreyfuss reports up above:
"....Final score: Netanyahu 5, Obama 0 ......"
All right!!!!
The New York Yankees won Wednesday night and now Mr. Dreyfuss says Bibi has won, as well.
We are on a roll here. This has been a good week.
Good for America, good for Israel, good for Canada and all other countries in the world who are interested in peace and justice and fairness.
Israel has a right to exist, and the terrorists who seek to deny it that right need to understand that.....they are to blame for the failure for there to be lasting peace in the Middle East......
They already know they are to blame because their objective is now, as it always has been, no Israel.
They need to understand they will not get away with it. They need to understand that they are causing innocent people to suffer with their intransigence. They need to understand they will be held accountable.
Right now, they don't care and most of the rest of the world and much of the left here in America does not blame them much less seek to hold them accountable.
So maybe the first behavior modification needs to happen to the left here at home as well as those with anti-Israel sentiment around the world.
If the day comes where the world support or concurrence with the terrorists disappears, and they realize they are alone, then maybe some of the more moderate of them will realize their dream of no Israel will never happen and for the sake of the innocent people on their side, they will give up.
Let us hope.
Posted by sjchermak at 11/06/2009 @ 6:36pm
"Dumb people reject science, reject evolution, reject stem cell research, pray in their silly churches and vote for garbage like John McCain and Sarah Palin."
Who's rejecting evolution now?
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 6:40pm
I don't want to overstate the case. There ARE rightwing Nazi creeps who are smart. Nobody could call Edward Teller dumb. A Nazi maybe. But not dumb. Though again, he's the standout among that brilliant crop of early 2oth century physicists. The rest, virtually to a man, were liberals.
Posted by rykart at 11/06/2009 @ 6:40pm
Who's rejecting evolution now? Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 6:40pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I give up. Who's rejecting evolution?
Posted by rykart at 11/06/2009 @ 6:41pm
The leftists who say there are no races in the human species.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 7:08pm
Obama is fueling the extremists, bomb-makers, and rocket launchers in Hamas, a fundamentalist, Muslim Brotherhood-founded movement that wants no compromise?
What utter nonsense, the Muslim Brotherhood has been this way since their inception many decades ago and the idiots in Hamas follow along.
Far from a diplomatic failure, this has been a success because it makes the Palestinians face their own malignate society for what it is. If they want peace, all they have to do is stop attacking Israel. That, of course, will not happen so Israel should keep building settlements on the West Bank and firing back when fired upon.
Posted by pyeatte at 11/06/2009 @ 7:28pm
The leftists who say there are no races in the human species. Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 7:08pm | ignore this person | warn this person
You appear duty-bound to prove my point that rightists are anti-thought and anti-science.
What you're saying is utter nonsense, rejected by the scientific community.
Here is a brief post from Talkorigins, a site largely devoted to debunking rightwing creationism and rightwing scientific ignorance of biology:
Genetic studies show that humans are remarkably homogeneous genetically, so all humans are only one biological race. Evolution does not teach racism; it teaches the very opposite.
http://tiny.cc/OJCj4
Posted by SmashIsrael at 11/06/2009 @ 7:58pm
I take it that gender is a social construct as well, since there is more in common between men and women than distinguishes them from one another?
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 8:07pm
Understanding why and how race exists is really quite simple. Giant desert? Virtually impassable mountain range? Giant sheet of frozen tundra? Ocean? What a remarkable coincidence that every barrier between races coincides with one or more of these geographical barriers. Sure, people occasionally get through, so occasionally the races will mix - but not in any proportion to the overall population size.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 8:11pm
"Here is a brief post from Talkorigins, a site largely devoted to debunking rightwing creationism and rightwing scientific ignorance of biology:"
I'm no creationist.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 8:12pm
"Here is a brief post from Talkorigins, a site largely devoted to debunking rightwing creationism and rightwing scientific ignorance of biology:" I'm no creationist. Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 8:12pm | ignore this person | warn this person
But modern biology considers race as much of a calumny as creationism. that was my point.
Posted by SmashIsrael at 11/06/2009 @ 8:30pm
If they want peace, all they have to do is stop attacking Israel. That, of course, will not happen so Israel should keep building settlements on the West Bank and firing back when fired upon.
Posted by pyeatte at 11/06/2009 @ 7:28pm
Hey pyeatte,
Do you really know what the f*ck you are talking about man?
Mahmud Abbas has never fired a shot at Israel; he has been negotiating peace with them since Oslo in 1993, before Hamas even existed. What did Abbas get from Israel in return? He got more confiscation of Palestinian land, more Jewish settlements on the West Bank, more military checkpoints, and more stealing of Palestinian water resources.
How would you compromise with someone who kicked your ass out of your own home? Do you give him half of it?
Posted by CripThink at 11/06/2009 @ 8:35pm
It is sad indeed that the first African-American president defends in Israel exactly the kind of institutionalized bigotry, apartheid oppression, and racism the civil rights movement defeated in this country, a victory that made his election possible.
George H.W. Bush forced a showdown with Yitzhak Shamir over Israel's West Bank settlements by threatening to link $10 billion in loan guarantees to Israel's compliance with a settlement freeze. Why can't Obama do this?
This is a battle the US and Obama can win at a stroke, without a single life being lost and within a matter of weeks or months.
Bring in legislation to ban all bilateral trade with Israel until its government complies with international law, the UNSC and the Geneva Conventions.
If Mr Obama is really interested in "change" we can believe in then he needs to "change" the same old rhetoric, and dogmatic, unquestioned, unconditional support of Israel. Level the playing field and be an honest broker of the "change" he is espousing. Obama is no fool but AIPAC, Rahm, and our useless Congress have done their their best to bias Obama to be an Israel firster. Shameful. Shameful.
Is it frustrating that Obama cannot make a decision and then see it through. But his strategy may be this...wait until the 2010 elections are over. Do not make waves with AIPAC until he has ensured a Dem majority then turn the screws on Israel and cut their aid if they still refuse to meet their roadmap obligations. Don't forget, the guy still has three years to go.
I will be proud of the day when the President can put the interest of America before the interest of Israel and not be crucified for it by AIPAC, Israel, the neocons, etc. The oath of allegiance that I said everyday in school was to America, not Israel.
Posted by Betz55 at 11/06/2009 @ 9:13pm
There are very few decent people on earth who don't want to see the disgusting Nazi pigsty called Israel reduced to rubble.
Posted by SmashIsrael at 11/06/2009 @ 9:26pm
"NEWS & LETTERS, January-February 2004 Earthquake exposes fault lines in Iranian society A devastating earthquake Dec. 26 rocked Iran's Kerman province, 1,000 kilometers (600 miles) southeast of the capital, Tehran. It registered 6.3 on the Richter scale. The area most affected was the city of Bam. The quake left up to 85% of Bam's houses and buildings destroyed or beyond repair. The death toll, according to Iranian government figures, is over 35,000, almost half of the city population, with many buried in mass graves. But other sources put the death toll at between 40,000 and 50,000 people. This is the deadliest quake the world has seen since 1990, when 40,000 were killed in Rodbar in Gilan province, located in northern Iran. Bam's historic, 2,000-year-old historic citadel was reduced to rubble. Who is responsible for the non-natural causes of such an extensive human tragedy? Many believe that if the houses had been built properly, the dead could number 100 or fewer. Why did the Islamic regime neglect to create appropriate housing during its rule over the past 25 years? This shows the complete disregard by the regime toward people's lives and safety.
We are in the 21st century, but the Islamic Republic remains unprepared for naturally caused catastrophes and acts very slowly to rescue people when they occur."
So backward have the Mullahs made their wretched country that 90,000 Iranians have died from earthquakes that should have killed no more than 200 people combined. In addition, the brutal totalitarian dictatorship in Tehran has killed 175,000 Iranians since 1979. All in all, it has caused the deaths of more than a quarter of a million people. Its invasion of Iraq left four times that many dead. Presumably, Iran is also a "disgusting Nazi pigsty"?
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 9:41pm
We should all look down at the ground and shed bitter tears over the scum of SHITerot.
But the scum of SHITerot are squatting on an Arab village they ethnically cleansed.
I'm glad they are being rocketed and hope they are wiped out because they deserve to be wiped out.
What decent person cares about the Nazi garbage of SHITerot? What decent person cares about the fate of the Nazi hoodlum Gilad Shalit?
Try him for war crimes..
Execute him
This ought to have been done a long time ago.
Posted by SmashIsrael at 11/06/2009 @ 9:50pm
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 9:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Predictable and highly selective history.
The mullahs are nuts. Many if not most are out of their fucking minds.
How did we wind up with these religious zombies? I'll tell you how. We destroyed the democratic, secular leadership of Mossadegh with a CIA engineered coup so that we could install a brutal puppet and extract the oil we coveted. Now you're surprised the iranians don't like us?
NOTE: the Ayatollah Khomeni was a dangerous psychopath...a kook. If you want to apply the term "islamofascist" to anyone, he fits the bill. However...he called a meeting of Iranian Jews when he came to power and said "these are protected citizens. They will NOT be expelled from iran. There will be no pogroms. They will live here as full Iranian citizens" and so it has remained.
It is the subhuman dirt of Israel who are the regional problem and everybody knows it. I'm proud to say that Jews of conscience have been among the MOST outspoken in denouncing the filth of Israel and their-Nazi-inspired dung heap.
Posted by SmashIsrael at 11/06/2009 @ 10:10pm
"How did we wind up with these religious zombies? I'll tell you how. We destroyed the democratic, secular leadership of Mossadegh with a CIA engineered coup so that we could install a brutal puppet and extract the oil we coveted. Now you're surprised the iranians don't like us?"
It's pretty obvious that Massadegh was none of our damn business. It's clear that Harry Truman was right to have refused to support the British-planned coup and that Eisenhower was wrong to approve of it. Mucking around in Persia was not written in our government's Constitutional job description.
However...
1) Massadegh was a Socialist allied with the USSR who nationalized private industry. 2) Massadegh was hostile towards America. 3) Most importantly, the entire coup was planned on the assumption that its success depended on the support of Iranians who favored the return to power of the ousted Shah. 4) Iranians were divided in their support of leaders; some fought to reinstall the Shah, and America aided them. 5) Rather than an unprovoked act of aggression, this is closer to covert involvement in another country's internal civil war. 6) The British probably were motivated by oil, but not the US, as we had no oil fields in Iran for Massadegh to nationalize. We got involved due to Cold War paranoia. 7) A secular Socialist government in Tehran allied to the USSR could have inspired more extreme religious fervor than did the Shah. 8) The highest estimate I've seen for deaths caused by the Shah is 16,000. No tyranny is ever good, but he was clearly a better leader than any other Middle Eastern leader of his time. 9) Under the Shah, there was an elected parliament.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 11:03pm
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 11:03pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Well if it was ONLY 16,000 iranians killed in the CIA coup, I assume you're not someone who would raise a fuss about less than one fifth that number killed in the WTC attack, despite the fact the US went totally ape shit over it and launched several high profile massacres and torture jamborees that have left over 1 million dead and counting.
Your reading of the Mossadegh coup is little more than a rehash of US justifications for this crime, all thoroughly debunked by the documentary evidence. Mossadegh had no fondness for the USSR, wanted to make peace with the west on any terms short of the US and britain stealing Iran's natural resources while keeping the populace in wildly unjust bondage. He was NOT anti-American and the cold war rumblings were a cheesy pretext, nothing more. There was essentially NO popular movement against Mossadegh in Iran, other than that whipped up by CIA/MI6 shock troops handed hard cash to launch anti-Mossadegh protests and beat up opponents---again, unequivocally documented by Kermit Roosevelt and the rest of our gang of thugs. You are crazy to say that the US was not up to its neck in the plot to steal Iraq's oil--the Shah we installed immediately cut a deal allowing the US and the UK to split 80% of the take.
Posted by SmashIsrael at 11/06/2009 @ 11:31pm
I meant "steal IRAN'S oil" obviously.
Posted by SmashIsrael at 11/06/2009 @ 11:37pm
You're right. The coup was an unconstitutional and illegal crime.
"that have left over 1 million dead and counting."
The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. However--and here is the clinching and obvious point--Saddam Hussein was not going to survive. His regime was on the verge of implosion. It had long passed the point of diminishing returns. Like the Ceausescu edifice in Romania, it was a pyramid balanced on its apex (its powerbase a minority of the Sunni minority), and when it fell, all of the consequences of a post-Saddam Iraq would have been with us anyway. To suggest that these consequences are attributable only to intervention is to be completely blind to reality. The choices were two and only two--to experience these consequences with an American or international presence or to watch them unfold as if they were none of our business.
In 2006, the bloodiest year of the Iraq war, a bit more than 200 Iraqi civilians were killed (none on purpose, by the way) by American soldiers. All the other civilian deaths were caused by the terrorists and insurgents that the American troops were in Iraq to defeat and to protect the Iraqis from.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/07/2009 @ 12:48am
True, but the average Jew does have a higher IQ than the average Palestinian; the average Asian has a higher IQ than the average white; the average white has a higher IQ than the average Hispanic; and the average black has the lowest IQ of all.
Posted by rightwingnutcase
This stupidity reminds me of Archie Bunker.
Posted by koroviev at 11/07/2009 @ 01:03am
"My observation is that Israelis lives in a tiny pocket of a fairly useless portion of land that has virtually no natural resources. My guess is that is what the UN, cynically, thought when it gave it to them. "
You have guessed incorrectly. The UN gave the Israelis the land on which they were a majority or in which they were a large minority. The UN didn't tell them where to set up shop.
Posted by brunowe at 11/07/2009 @ 07:20am
RIGHTWINGNUTCASE, YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME, AS WELL AS THE NATION READERS' TIME BY WRITING THE BLATANT LIES. ALL WITH A MINIMUM COMMENCE SENSE KNOW, ISRAEL IS THE CULPRIT AND IT IS THE OBSTACLE TO THE PEACE IN MIDDLE EAST.THE WORLD NOW KNOW THE TRUTH. IN THIS TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED WORLD , IT IS DIFFICULT TO SUPPRESS THE TRUTHS.PALESTINE IS FOR PALESTINIANS.
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/07/2009 @ 07:36am
RIGHTWINGNUTCASE DESERVE A NOBEL PRIZE FOR MOST BLATANT LIES IN SUPPORT OF ISRAEL.
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/07/2009 @ 07:41am
Dreyfuss has written a clever column - but he failed to mention Obama's dire warning to Israel during his address to the UN General Assembly. "The United States does Israel no favors when we fail to couple an unwavering commitment to its security with an insistence that Israel respect the legitimate claims and rights of the Palestinians." Obama's threat to link arms shipments and diplomatic support for Israel to peace negotiations and the rights of Palestinians to their own land. This statement got zero coverage in the US media, but it got a lot of critical coverage in Israel. This omission is the glaring error in Dreyfuss' hyperbolic but amusing case.
Posted by malleusmaleficarum at 11/07/2009 @ 09:23am
"My observation is that Israelis lives in a tiny pocket of a fairly useless portion of land that has virtually no natural resources. My guess is that is what the UN, cynically, thought when it gave it to them. "
You have guessed incorrectly. The UN gave the Israelis the land on which they were a majority or in which they were a large minority. The UN didn't tell them where to set up shop.
Posted by brunowe at 11/07/2009 @ 07:20am
Old rush of blood to the head problem persists, I notice B.
I think the whole lot, under the British Mandate was/is, when contrasted with other Arab states, a tiny pocket of fairly useless land that has virtually no natural resources. It was what was given to both sides that led me to guess there was some UN cynicism in being so "generous". Now that is only a guess but maybe you have some inside information on the feelings of those so "generous".
That consideration should lead a thoughtful person to ask why it was so important to each side to live in such a location. For Israel that is fairly easy to answer. It was the birthplace of ancient Israel. It's a little harder to find a reason for Palestinians to want to kill and be killed for it.
Of course the Arabs weren't too keen on letting the Jews have any of it, let alone the 56% the UN suggested go to Israel in the UN Partition. So the 47-48 Civil War, whilst it was still a British Mandated territory, to be followed, after independence, by the Arab-Jewish War in 1948.
That really set the tone for the conflict right up to today and indicates the difficulty of any resolution.
Like America and Europe we seem, at least at governmental level to support Israel's right to statehood in more or less its present location. That makes it near impossible for any permanent resolution.
I guess.
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/07/2009 @ 09:23am
US must cut off all the helps to Israel, then only Israel would heed to US words on Middle East.
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/07/2009 @ 09:43am
The UN didn't tell them where to set up shop. Posted by brunowe at 11/07/2009 @ 07:20am | ignore this person | warn this person
other choices were Uganda and Argentina.
one famous Zionist quit when the Uganda plan fell through.
Posted by emile duBois at 11/07/2009 @ 10:22am
Posted by koroviev at 11/07/2009 @ 01:03am | ignore this person | warn this person
why repeat this racist drivel?
Posted by emile duBois at 11/07/2009 @ 10:24am
George H.W. Bush forced a showdown with Yitzhak Shamir over Israel's West Bank settlements by threatening to link $10 billion in loan guarantees to Israel's compliance with a settlement freeze.
and how did this work out?
Posted by emile duBois at 11/07/2009 @ 10:26am
The UN voted to partition land where no country existed into 2 states -- one being Israel, the other Palestine. Posted by gren at 11/06/2009 @ 3:55pm | ignore this person | warn this person
this is wrong. PALESTINE was divided into Israel and Transjordan, which is now the country of Jordan.the West Bank was, thanks to this division, a part of Jordan. Jordan lost this in the last war there. they do not want it back, incidentally.
your post is disappointing. I was under the evidently mistaken impression you knew the history of the region better than you have shown
Posted by emile duBois at 11/07/2009 @ 10:32am
"why repeat this racist drivel?"
Find a study on average IQ of distinct ethnic groups that contradicts what I wrote or admit that you reject objective reality in favor of subjective emotion.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/07/2009 @ 1:22pm
(46 percent of Jews in the US make more than $100,000 a year)
Gosh, even the kids? o to be in Oleanna...
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 11/07/2009 @ 3:08pm
So settlements are the problem and are driven by extremists, huh? Why didn't peace-loving Arabs grab their state in 1948? Since Jewish and Arab state creation was the first Middle East relevant resolution by the UN, isn't it reasonable to enforce it forst meaning that all Arab states have to recognize the Jewish state of Israel? Aren't Palestinian policies driven by Hamas which is extremist, to say the least? Didn't Israel leave Gaza and get rockets in return? What did Palestinians ever offer and deliver? Anyway, these are all inconvenient questions that Mr. Dreyfuss, in his hatred for Israel, doesn't want to mention which, of course, makes all his insane Nation followers happy. And by the way, brave Mr. Dreyfuss who thinks that he defies Israeli lobby (or Jewish lobby, as Mr. Buckanan likes to call it on MSNBC) doesn't publish his e-mail (as all Nations contributors, of course) so he is not bothered by difficult questions that he doesn't know the answers to.
Posted by teasethegeese at 11/07/2009 @ 3:39pm
US must cut off all the helps to Israel, then only Israel would heed to US words on Middle East.
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/07/2009 @ 09:43am
Look Datsun I think the reason that the US and other "Christian" countries won't cut off aid to Israel is that there are at least some warm feelings about their Judeo/Christian roots by not only Christian "Christians" but also by agnostic and atheistic "Christians".
I was listening to a clue-y political commentator yesterday talking about why Kevin Rudd, our PM who wears his Christianity and church attendance as a badge of honour, is still so popular, in not only a much more secular country than the US but also perhaps the most multi ethnic/cultural country in the world.
He said, though only a very small percentage of Australians go to church and not many more believe in God or religion, there is great respect for someone who does and stands up for what he believes. Currently that does not apply here to the other monotheistic religion and I suspect the same is true of the US and Europe.
That is a roundabout way of saying there is still a general respect for the Judeo/Christian roots or basis of our society.
So it is with present Israel. I notice some of the strongest support for the state of Israel comes from politicians who certainly by their pronouncements on religion are certainly agnostic if not atheistic.
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/07/2009 @ 4:49pm
That raises the issue of the pro-Israel Jewish lobby. The real point is why does its message resonate with so many politicians?
My suggestion is because of empathy with the Judeo/Christian basis of our societies.
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/07/2009 @ 5:07pm
I notice some of the strongest support for the state of Israel comes from politicians who certainly by their pronouncements on religion are certainly agnostic if not atheistic. Posted by lrjones4 at 11/07/2009 @ 4:49pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I notice that the MOST vehement condemnation of Israel comes from humanist Jews, repulsed by the vermin of Israel and their horrifying, loathsome crimes.
A by-no-means-comprehensive review of some of the more recent atrocities of course are to be found in the Jewish jurist Goldstone's report:
http://tiny.cc/TG0Ln
Posted by rykart at 11/07/2009 @ 5:08pm
hello my heideggerian friends.
You know it's interesting. The leftist Jew-haters have this false narrative about how Israel came to be - which goes something like "refugees from Europe stole the orchards of peace-loving Arabs who had no connection to Nazis or Holocaust, stole little girls lollipops..."
Funny, I just found an article from way back before this narrative took hold in of all places, the Nation! Must have been some guilt over Molotov-Ribbentrop. Won't find that here anymore! A 1947 piece called "The Grand Muftis Long Ties to Terrorism" or something. Look it up.
In fact, it was al-Husseini who rebuilt al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock, precisely because he wanted to annex for Muslims (who had plenty of holy sites) the ONLY holy site, and unquestionably the spiritual center of Judaism.
Can you imagine if Mecca and Medina were razed and infidel temples built there, than the House of Saud regaining control, but leaving the infidel temples intact out of sympathy to the infidels!
Posted by gangpapist at 11/07/2009 @ 6:00pm
Posted by rykart at 11/07/2009 @ 5:08pm
I was trying to indicate why Datsu is on a hiding to nothing with his proposal that the US stops its aid to Israel.
Your comments are about a group of Jews, who in terms of practical outcomes are inconsequential, they also fail to influence policy because of the prevailing pro-Israel culture of the West.
On the Goldstone report I heard on local radio an Israeli apologist say that the testimony collected from Gaza was taken from individuals in public meetings chaired by the Hamas leadership. If that indeed is so the trash bin is the best destination for a report that collects evidence in that manner.
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/07/2009 @ 6:31pm
Posted by CripThink at 11/06/2009 @ 8:35pm: Where have you been for the last few decades? Hamas and the other degenerate organization called Hezbollah has accepted only the extinction of not only Israel but of all Jews the world over. You want peace? Stop killing Jews. Peace would come overnight.
Posted by pyeatte at 11/07/2009 @ 6:43pm
Posted by SmashIsrael at 11/06/2009 @ 9:50pm:
Perhaps you are angry because you are living 70 years too late and in the wrong country. You would have made a great SS guard - right attitude and everything.
Posted by pyeatte at 11/07/2009 @ 6:48pm
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/07/2009 @ 6:31pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I wouldn't worry about that too much, lr. The people still supporting Israel are the real bottom of the barrel pre-hominids, genetically incapable of not lying, and pretty much everybody knows that by now.
I don't see a strong pro-Israel culture anymore. People are out of work, having their homes foreclosed, without prospects. By and large they do NOT want billions more US dollars sent to the Nazi feces of Israel. Yes, the lobby are a vocal, extremely well funded and well organized, but they can no longer plug all the holes in the dike. More and more prominent Jews are condemning Israel. Israeli leaders come to make their case at our universities and are identified as war criminals and shouted off the stage or pelted with rotten eggs. Their "anti-Semite" broken record that always served them in good stead doesn't work anymore. Everyone is sick of them. The more they cry "anti-Semitism" the more everyone sees through them now.
They are the Piltdown Man of political movements--an utter hoax.
Posted by rykart at 11/07/2009 @ 6:51pm
He can console himself by curling up on the sofa and watching "The Reader." It's about this dude who bones a totally hot SS guard with some big ol titties! And it's totally not judgmental and did I mention titties?
It's not as exciting as raping some kike slut while she begs for her putrid life, but it's close.
Posted by gangpapist at 11/07/2009 @ 6:54pm
Posted by rykart at 11/07/2009 @ 6:51pm |
If that's how you get your jollies dream on. I don't come to this topic with a powerful bias as you do and thus think my view of the world on this matter is more objective than yours.
Incidentally going by this thread, which one would expect to be somewhat sympathetic to your position, you seem to be outnumbered even by the Lefties who reject your extreme position.
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/07/2009 @ 7:04pm
Incidentally going by this thread, which one would expect to be somewhat sympathetic to your position, you seem to be outnumbered even by the Lefties who reject your extreme position. Posted by lrjones4 at 11/07/2009 @ 7:04pm | ignore this person | warn this person
It's support for Israel that is the extreme position. It's the United States rejection of the UN report on atrocities in Gaza that is the extreme position--a position rejected by the entire world. Take a look at the UN votes over the last 10 20 30 40 years...always the same. The whole world on one side, Israel and the US on the other.
If you lived in Nazi Germany, you'd find anti-Nazism to be the "extreme position." That's only natural. Here in the US, one can be comfortably insulated from the international outrage and utter disgust with Israel.
..same is true for the US position on ending the embargo against Cuba, as this helpful chart indicates.
Year Votes (Yes-No) No Votes 1992 59-2 US, Israel 1993 88-4 US, Israel, Albania, Paraguay 1994 101-2 US, Israel 1995 117-3 US, Israel, Uzbekistan 1996 138-3 US, Israel, Uzbekistan 1997 143-3 US, Israel 1998 157-2 US, Israel 1999 155-2 US, Israel, Marshall Islands 2000 167-3 US, Israel, Marshall Islands 2001 167-3 US, Israel, Marshall Islands 2002 167-3 US, Israel, Marshall Islands 2003 173-3 US, Israel, Marshall Islands, Palau 2004 179-3 US, Israel, Marshall Islands, Palau 2005 182-4 US, Israel, Marshall Islands, Palau 2006 183-4 US, Israel, Marshall Islands, Palau 2007 184-4 US, Israel, Marshall Islands, Palau 2008 185-3 US, Israel, Palau 2009 187-3 US, Israel, Palau
Posted by rykart at 11/07/2009 @ 7:12pm
More UN Votes: take note of those bearing on israel-palestine:
http://tiny.cc/gTzT0
Who are the extremists, again?
Posted by rykart at 11/07/2009 @ 7:28pm
Posted by rykart at 11/07/2009 @ 6:51pm
Maybe you're right.
"Well, WHITEY is waking up to the Jew conspiracy bullshit that has been thrown into the face of all Whites for quite some time.
WHITEY is sick and tired of being the scapegoat for all the crimes of racial violence in the United States.
WHITEY is buying guns and ammunition at a record pace .... no-stop since the Marxist Communist Obama entered illegally (not a U.S. confirmed citizen) into the White House, and WHITEY is awakening to the Jews and their` financial rip-off of the U.S. Treasury (U.S. taxpayers) and the giving of such, to the JEW banks, lending financial houses, and to the Jews themselves without having to disclose where and how much money went where!!
The writing is on the wall. Even the blind and dumb are starting to smell a rat (Jew). Even ordinary Joe and Jane Doe are stocking up on food, guns, and ammunition. Something they have never done in their life before, and at a record pace. No longer do the masses just see the smoke of their problems, but now they see the FIRE which is creating that terrible smoke and smell in their nation. Of course, the terrible smell is the Jews and their Black hordes who they buy off to be their axe men and criminals in the streets of the United States."
http://www.aryan-nations.org/index-2.htm
Whitey is with you!
Posted by gangpapist at 11/07/2009 @ 7:44pm
Posted by rykart at 11/07/2009 @ 7:12pm
I thought I made clear the point that the only relevant supporters Israel needs are the US and Europe. The votes against and the abstentions came from that group. The UN is a paper tiger and this report whilst Israel's chief backers are not buying it will be about as effective as other UN resolutions against Israel. My understanding is that this resolution will be non binding anyway.
If America and Europe are consistent backers of Israel why don't the Arabs/Palestinians seek to get other nations to act as mediators? The answer to that question I suggest gives the game away and points up why all your fun and games with demeaning name calling and wild hopes will not change the present relationship between Israel and the West.
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/07/2009 @ 8:37pm
The barbaric Palestinians are inferior culturally, morally, politically, intellectually, and philosophically to the Israelis.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/07/2009 @ 8:54pm
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/07/2009 @ 8:37pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Hi LR. I'm guessing you did NOT examine the link of UN votes because ALL of Europe has opposed the US-Israel axis of evil. Yes it's true we have veto power and have managed through the enormous power of the US to maintain this grim status quo in the Mid East. No argument there. But the member countries of the UN, virtually ALL of them, oppose the position of the US. on Israel.
As I pointed out..same deal with America's idiotic and destructive punishment of CUBA--187 countries calling for the end of the embargo in the oct 2009 vote, Israel, the US and Palau (a tiny pacific atol we have bought off) are the no votes. The whole of Europe along with every other nation on one side, Israel and the US on the other and likewise for pretty much ALL the votes concerning Israel-Palestine.
Why?
Well, that depends on your viewpoint. If you're pro-Israel, it's because every country on earth and every human rights organization on earth has it in for poor Israel. If on the other hand, you're a normal human being, it's because of the obviousness of the Palestinian cause and the utter legal and moral bankruptcy of the Israelis.
Posted by rykart at 11/07/2009 @ 9:48pm
The fact is, the case for Israel is so outlandish and transparently absurd, that you can not possibly maintain it without hundreds of millions of dollars poured into a well-oiled propaganda machine.
You must talk about the holocaust 16,000 times a day. You must bring up the (entirely mythical) exodus from Egypt. You must marshall every scrap of pseudoscience to try to hoodwink an unsuspecting public into the idea that there is such a thing as a Jewish people, linked over the millennia to the land of Israel. You have to spend a fortune whitewashing crimes and strong-arming the rest of the world to tow the line. You have to silence those who speak out by ruining their careers. You have to have a 24/7 racist campaign to cast the Palestinians as violent barbarians.
And with all this--the system is breaking down. Not only does the most illustrious Jew who ever lived, Albert Einstein, declare that the Israelis are Nazis and Fascists, we find the same attitude in many other luminary Jews. They are ALL "self-haters" ? Everyone is lying about Israel? ALL the human rights organizations are actually neo-Nazi front groups?
So the always ludicrous "case for israel" at some tipping point, becomes unsustainable. One is convinced of the existence of the Easter Bunny up until the moment the whole lovely idea collapses under its own weight. That has started to happen.
Doubtless, there is a long way to go. But injustice on such a perverse scale can not be hidden from the light of day forever. Sooner or later people come to their senses and demand justice. That is not going to be a pleasant day for Israel. at the moment, they seem as invincible as the German murder state they have modeled themselves on. But things change.
Posted by rykart at 11/07/2009 @ 10:16pm
"Doubtless, there is a long way to go. But injustice on such a perverse scale can not be hidden from the light of day forever. Sooner or later people come to their senses and demand justice"
It's funny how much outrage leftists can muster towards the freest and most prosperous Middle Eastern nation even as they ally themselves with genocidal Stalinist dictatorships that kill people by the millions (such as North Korea). Over the last 60 years, North Korea has killed more than 4 million people. It runs concentration camps with gas chambers. Yet, the only outrage expressed by the left is anger (STILL!) directed at America for liberating the South Koreans.
The left never calls for an end to aid to North Korea. It never demands we boycott brutal totalitarian dictatorships like Iran, Sudan, Zimbabwe, or Cuba. The left wants to boycott the only free country in the entire Middle East, but none of these tyrannies. Why? Liberals HATE FREEDOM. They want to crush democracy worldwide, in South Korea, in Iraq, and in Israel. They demonize America in order to express the view that freedom DOESN'T WORK.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 12:20am
Posted by rykart at 11/07/2009 @ 10:16pm
Checked your URL again and could not find the General Assembly vote on the Goldstone Report. Here is the information I was relying on, from JP, to make my claim about Europe:
The UN General Assembly approved on Thursday an Arab-backed resolution endorsing the Goldstone Report, paving the way for the matter to be sent to the Security Council.
"18 states voted against the resolution:"
I've removed all except European nations and of course the most important nation on earth and that little Anglo/French enclave to your north:
"(Australia, Canada) Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Netherlands, Poland, Slovakia, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and Ukraine."
"44 states abstained:"
I've removed all except European nations and left Russia in:
Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, , Finland, France, Georgia, Greece, Iceland Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Monaco, Montenegro, Norway, Republic of Moldova, Romania, (Russian Federation), Sweden, and United Kingdom.
114 states voted in favor of the resolution:
Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bosnia, and Herzegovina, Cyprus, Ireland, Kazakhstan, Malta, Portugal, Serbia, Slovenia, Switzerland and Uzbekistan.
I've been a bit generous with "European" because I think you need a bit of help. Even so you must admit they are a pretty raggle taggle bunch and unlikely to change the face of the ME.
To summarize: The big European players UK, France, and Germany either voted against or diplomatically abstained. So the US-European major Israel support group has not been destabilised by the Goldstone Report.
I think your recording system must be a bit up the shit. Could you afford a filing clerk?
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/08/2009 @ 01:28am
Re: Obama Fails in Middle East
It's easy to add up the problems faced by a new President who promised everything including Middle East Peace and count him out after the first inning when you're looking in from the peanut gallery. From there you can take pot shots at anyone including Rabbi Tzvi Yehudah Kook by making childish fun of his name. The real deal in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza is that this is truly heavy lifting with lots of powerful players including the Religious Parties in Israel. Although George Michell and to a lesser extent Secretary Clinton have done their share of listening it will take time and the ability to absorb a substantial amount of failure to make any meaningful progress in the shifting sands of Middle East diplomacy. Obama and his team are still learning. They'll learn more at the GA Conference this weekend from the members of a rather potent American Jewish lobby. And clearly the Secretary got to hear an earful during the later days of her recent Middle East adventure. The solution to this conflict has at least as many enemies as friends. I would hope that the Nation would be willing to hold its water in lieu of a more reasonable timetable for the development of such a worthy outcome.
Larry Snider
Posted by llarry at 11/08/2009 @ 01:32am
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/08/2009 @ 01:28am | ignore this person | warn this person
144 countries, (including Switzerland--depository of the Geneva Conventions)--voted to send the Goldstone report to the UN Security Council.
I guess lrjones, echoing that great defender of Enlightenment values, Avigdore Leiberman--will declare this "a moral victory for Israel."
That's a good one.
To normal human beings, 114-18 against the putrid garbage of Israel and their war crimes is a slam dunk. To the Israelis, it's "a moral victory."
Pretty UNremarkable that Italy, led by the anti-Semite and darling of Israel, Silvio Berlusconi, voted against the measure as did a handful of other coerced or bought off nations, including the ever-reliable Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Paulu and Tuvalu--countries which join Israel and the US routinely as the ONLY 7 countries ON EARTH opposing the resolution on 'peaceful settlement of the Palestine conflict'--a measure put forward every year for 40 years.
The 44 abstentions ARE remarkable, given Israel and the US's hysterical lobbying efforts and formidable abilities to punish countries that don't fall in line, particularly in the midst of a global financial crisis.
In other news, "Israel dismally fails the requirements of a tolerant pluralistic society, according to a new report from the U.S. State Department. "
as reported in ha'aretz:
http://tiny.cc/elKAJ
Posted by rykart at 11/08/2009 @ 08:54am
114 countries, sorry.
Still, not bad.
Posted by rykart at 11/08/2009 @ 08:56am
Further--without fear of the bullying tactics of the US and Israel, would you guess that most of the 44 abstentions would vote FOR the measure or AGAINST it?
I think we both know the answer to that.
Posted by rykart at 11/08/2009 @ 09:00am
I wonder when you lot are going to move over, pull down your cities, plant forest on your farmland, fill your mines and quarries and give your country back to the Native Americas. I never cease to be amazed at people who expect the Isrealis to give up everything and get very upset when they don't. Strange personalities, people who are totally incapable of seeing a situation from another person's point of view. Small wonder you are bogged down in Afghanistan and even more understandable that your homeland security is such crap, ref The Mad Major of Texas.
Posted by fibogel at 11/08/2009 @ 09:23am
One more thing, lr. If the UK's abstention constitutes "a moral victory for Israel" why are the little pro-Israel ebola viruses in Britain so enraged about it?
http://tiny.cc/361Qi
Posted by SmashIsrael at 11/08/2009 @ 10:24am
So settlements are the problem and are driven by extremists, huh?
yes. the settlements are obviously illegal. the west bank is under a military occupation.
the settlements are also really, really expensive for Israel. they will realize that they cannot afford them any longer.
how there is going to be an independent state in the west bank puzzles me. where is the economy going to come from there? the west bank palestinians used to have jobs in Israel, before they again resorted to blowing up shit. those jobs will never return. the west bank is fed by the UN and other aid agencies, none of them arab it appears.
Posted by emile duBois at 11/08/2009 @ 12:04pm
Posted by rykart at 11/08/2009 @ 08:54am
Sorry R but you've been done like a dinner. My contention was and is that traditional European support for Israel is still in place. (and that along with US solidarity with Israel is all that matters for its security).
It seems reasonable to me that perhaps on the principle of never poking a stick at a mad dog, some proven supporters of Israel have on those sort of diplomatic grounds abstained from voting.
I did have a cursory look at the report and it seems that the information gathering by the commission did in fact hold "unprecedented" public meeting to gather information and evidence:
UN Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict - Press Release
Fact Finding Mission Concludes Unprecedented Public Hearings
7 July 2009, Geneva – The United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict today completed its final round of public hearings, which are part of its ongoing investigations into the December 2008 – January 2009 military operation in Gaza and the circumstances that surrounded it, whether before, during or after. Last week in Gaza and this week in Geneva, the Mission held four days of hearings during which it heard stories of intense pain, loss and suffering from the people of Gaza, Israel and the West Bank.
"The aim of holding these public hearings – and this is the first time in such a UN fact finding mission that public hearings have been held – was to show the human side of the suffering; to give a voice to the victims so that they are not lost among statistics," Head of the Mission Justice Richard Goldstone told journalists on 7 July in Geneva.
"...Some people had also been unwilling to testify in public hearings because of fear of possible restrictions."
UN style justice aka just old style propaganda?
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/08/2009 @ 12:33pm
Posted by SmashIsrael at 11/08/2009 @ 10:24am
Oh you mean a a reporter from the Left leaning Guardian? Thank you for directing our attention to this classic bit:
"Poor Judge Goldstone now regrets how his good name has been used to single out Israel. The Swiss paper Le Temps reports him complaining that "This draft [UN human rights council] resolution saddens me … there is not a single phrase condemning Hamas as we have done in the report. I hope the council can modify the text." Fat hope."
"The truth is he was suckered into lending his good name to a half-baked report – read its 575 pages and see. He said that, as a Jew himself, he was surprised to be invited. He shouldn't have been, and should never have accepted leadership of a commission whose terms of reference were designed to excuse the aggressor, Hamas, and punish the defender, Israel.
"The council's decision was to "dispatch an urgent, independent, international fact-finding mission … to investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law by the occupying power, Israel, against the Palestinian people throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territory, particularly in the occupied Gaza Strip, due to the current aggression, and [it] calls upon Israel not to obstruct the process of investigation and to fully co-operate with the mission".
Sort of confirms my growing suspicion that it really was nothing more than a propaganda exercise. Thank you for that useful info. Perhaps you like ryfart need a secretary/censor to make sure you don't stuff up your cause by injudiciously posting information like this. Do they have a propaganda school over there you could attend to brush up a bit on your appalling skills. Ryfart will be angry with you for stuffing up his little game.
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/08/2009 @ 12:52pm
Don't mind the name calling lr, but could you be slightly more imaginative? OK..sorry I asked.
I'm also sorry the facts make an idiot and a liar of you, a point only highlighted by your last, empty post. Keep trying, while your at it, to cast the Goldstone report as some sort of aberration, rather than a document entirely in consonance with tens of thousands of pages of reports of similar atrocities in the Occupied Territories, courtesy Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Physicians for Human Rights, Israel's Bt'selem, Ha'aretz and the rest of the "wildly anti-Semitic peoples" of the earth.
It's amusing to see Israel eating its own children. The Israeli finance minister labels the pro-Israel, lifetime Zionist Goldstone--you guessed it--"an anti-Semite."
Israel is fast becoming like the Republican party, currently represented by textbook psychotics like Palin and Limbaugh, all normal humans having long since fled their ranks. They seems to be a good fit for you though and I'd hate you to lose what few (albeit repulsive) friends you've got left.
Posted by rykart at 11/08/2009 @ 1:53pm
Posted by rykart at 11/07/2009 @ 7:12pm:
Sorry rykart, but the Jews are not the ones that get off bombing restaurants and markets hoping to kill women, especially pregnant ones. You want to side with that type vermin - it's all yours, wallow away.
Posted by pyeatte at 11/08/2009 @ 4:17pm
Posted by rykart at 11/08/2009 @ 1:53pm
The Goldstone Report found that Hamas, which attacked Israel repeatedly before Israel responded in self-defense, committed war crimes against Israel. It also stated that Israel's military offensive against those who unilaterally initiated aggression and committed war crimes against it constituted a "war crime" AS WELL.
This is standard leftist boilerplate about moral equivalency and the cycle of violence. If a foreign government committed war crimes and aggression against America, and America responded by destroying that government, this would be a "war crime" by the standard of the report because the American retaliation would have been greater in scale than the initial assault on America.
In other words, if America responded to Pearl Harbor with an attack on Japan that killed more people than died in Pearl Harbor, this would be a disproportionate response and a war crime by the standards of the report.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 4:42pm
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 4:42pm | ignore this person | warn this person
..have been mildly entertained by the sheer clumsiness of your lies, but really...don't you think it's going a BIT far to imply in your post that you have actually READ the Goldstone report?
Posted by rykart at 11/08/2009 @ 6:10pm
Be gone, and take your vileness with you.
Posted by gren at 11/06/2009 @ 12:24pm
Thank you Gren.
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 6:37pm
The Goldstone Report found that Hamas, which attacked Israel repeatedly before Israel responded in self-defense, committed war crimes against Israel.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 4:42pm
Wrong.
The Goldstone Report documented what took place after Israel broke the ceasefire with Hamas on November 4th.
Prior to that date, Hamas fired no rockets for 4 months, observing the ceasefire with Israel.
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 6:39pm
It's funny how much outrage leftists can muster towards the freest and most prosperous Middle Eastern nation even as they ally themselves with genocidal Stalinist dictatorships that kill people by the millions (such as North Korea).
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 12:20am
That's funny. The State Department just described Israel as an intolerant society.
"Israel dismally fails the requirements of a tolerant pluralistic society, according to a new report from the U.S. State Department. "
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126286.html
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 6:42pm
Jews and East Asians are noticeably and measurably more intelligent and successful than other groups, just as blacks are noticeably and measurably less intelligent and less successful than other groups.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 5:04p
You sound like an advocate for social Darwinism. Gren has already told you to get lost. You are making Jews look bad, but then, maybe your're a closet anti Semite who's agenda is just that?
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 6:45pm
Calling Abbas a "moderate" is like saying that a murderer is still basically "good". Abbas has NEVER deviated from the PLO/Fatah charter to seek the destruction of Israel. He has maintained that position when speaking to Arab audiences.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 11:03am
Abbas is a US and Israeli puppet. He makes dumb statements in public for domestic consumption, then takes his orders from Tel Aviv.
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 6:46pm
Abbas told thousands at the rally, "The Palestinian leadership will continue to follow Yasser Arafat's path until a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital is established." Arafat carried out or ordered dozens of terrorist attacks before he died four years ago
Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 11:06am
And Olmert told the House of Congrats that he believes in Israel right to all the land from Jordan to the sea, for which he received a standing ovation.
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 6:50pm
Whereas on February 9, 2007, President Mahmoud Abbas openly signed the Mecca Agreement with Hamas, a terrorist organization, which does not recognize Israel and calls `for confronting the occupation' of Israel;
Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 11:03am
Resistance to occupation is legitimate and covere3d under international law, meanwhile, Israel flouts dozens fo UN resolutions and the Geneva Conventions, by maintaining their illegal occupation.
BTW. Hamas is the elected government in Gaza.
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 6:53pm
Posted by rykart at 11/08/2009 @ 1:53pm
Ha, Ha Rykart like your perseverance but bit masochistic aren't you. I think you know you are flogging a dead horse.
If only you could turn all that endeavour to a worthwhile cause. Who knows ? You could help make the real world a better place.
I don't know about your mate though. Perhaps he was only destined be be a carrier of placards. He should leave the heavy lifting to you. He hasn't got your sweet turn of phrase when you describe the enemy.
Just a little irrelevancy (from your perspective I mean) In English Law which includes yours, ours, India's etc, etc, and even old Brit's itself, show trials are OK and can serve a useful purpose eg Nuremberg but.... and here is where Goldstone scrapes the bottom of the barrel, evidence is collected discretely so it cannot be contaminated. That is what Goldstone did not do in collecting the "evidence".
That, I guess, is one reason your federal House, which is made up mostly of lawyers, it seems, gave Goldstone the trash can treatment. It simply did not meet the American standard of justice. Bully for them.
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/08/2009 @ 6:56pm
Documentation-show us the evidence to back up your anti-semitic rant
Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 12:19pm
If it is anti-semitic to suggest that the average Jew makes double what the average American does, then why is it not anti-semitic for rightwingnutcase to suggest that Jews and East Asians are noticeably and measurably more intelligent and successful than other groups?
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 7:08pm
Only to a leftist does the obviously superior performance of a group suggest that group's inferiority, because leftists hate success.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 7:18pm
Leftists hate Jews, but I wonder why they don't hate East Asians more. True, they suport North Korea, which has killed 4 million East Asians, and they think Asians should be racially discriminated against in academia, but they aren't that vehement about it.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 7:21pm
Most Jews are leftists.
So why do you hate Jews rightwingnutcase? Why are you such an anti Semite?
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 7:23pm
"Jews and East Asians are noticeably and measurably more intelligent and successful than other groups, just as blacks are noticeably and measurably less intelligent and less successful than other groups.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 5:04p
You sound like an advocate for social Darwinism. Gren has already told you to get lost. You are making Jews look bad, but then, maybe your're a closet anti Semite who's agenda is just that?"
How am I making Jews look bad, but not East Asians?
I'm not Jewish or East Asian, so my words cannot reflect negatively on them.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 7:24pm
Shingo is proof that not all Jews are intelligent.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 7:25pm
"That's funny. The State Department just described Israel as an intolerant society"
The UN recently had a resolution expressing concern over "profound" racism in Japan.
Japan and Israel are more tolerant than any Middle Eastern nation. In Iraq, Sunnis and Shiites kill each other by the tens of thousands. Kuwait was ethnically cleansed of Palestinians. In Iran, Baha'is are persecuted and massacred. The Gaza strip is the most hysterically racist and anti-Semitic piece of land on the face of the earth.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 7:33pm
By the standards of the Goldstone Report, America is guilty of war crimes against Japan for its "disproportionate" response to Pearl Harbor.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 7:35pm
"And Olmert told the House of Congrats that he believes in Israel right to all the land from Jordan to the sea, for which he received a standing ovation."
There's nothing wrong with that.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 7:37pm
There's nothing wrong with that.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 7:37pm
It's against international law for a start.
"By the standards of the Goldstone Report, America is guilty of war crimes against Japan for its "disproportionate" response to Pearl Harbor."
There's no disputing that. America is guilty of war crimes against Japan and American leaders would have been tried for these crimes if America had lost.
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 7:41pm
So basically, we should have just done the same thing to a harbor in Japan and then gone home?
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 7:42pm
"In Iraq, Sunnis and Shiites kill each other by the tens of thousands."
You mean, after the US have invaded or support the wars between them?
"Kuwait was ethnically cleansed of Palestinians. "
That's the same Kuwait that we support and you described as tolerant and progressive right?
"In Iran, Baha'is are persecuted and massacred."
Persecuted yes. Massacred, no.
"The Gaza strip is the most hysterically racist and anti-Semitic piece of land on the face of the earth."
It's about the same as the settler communities in the West Bank.
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 7:44pm
"That's the same Kuwait that we support and you described as tolerant and progressive right?"
Yup.
Besides, who can blame them for kicking out the inferior Palestinian savages?
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 7:45pm
So basically, we should have just done the same thing to a harbor in Japan and then gone home?
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 7:42pm
Destroyed their military yes, not nuke their population. We also committed war crimes in Dresden.
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 7:47pm
But Shingo, if destroying their military killed more people than died in Pearl Harbor, that would be "disproportionate" as a response and hence a war crime.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 7:50pm
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/06/2009 @ 12:10pm
clearly you are an anti-semitic provacateur who seeks to provoke and incite opposition to Israel through your crude charicature of an extremist racist Zionist lunatic. Be gone, and take your vileness with you.
Posted by gren at 11/06/2009 @ 12:24pm
wow, that's a fancy way of calling the viceroy an asshole.
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/08/2009 @ 9:20pm
We should have overthrown the government of Iran in 1979. If we had, thousands of American lives would have been saved and 9/11 never would have happened. The Soviets would never have invaded Afghanistan, the Taliban would never have come to power, and Iran would never have unilaterally invaded Iraq without provocation. Thousands, if not tens of thousands, of Israelis would have been saved, as would the lives of the 175,000 Iranians killed by the current mad regime. Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and virtually all terrorist organizations would have been technologically, militarily, and financially crippled before they ever got started. International terrorism would have lost its most important sponsor even as it was just starting out.
We must invade Iran now. It supports, arms, trains, and funds AQ and the Taliban. It has killed hundreds of American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is planning on invading Bahrain. It will start a nuclear arms race throughout the Middle East that will increase the chances of a nuclear terror strike on America while decreasing our ability to pinpoint the state responsible if such were to occur. It is waging a proxy war on us every day. It has threatened genocide against Israel. It was involved in 9/11. It chants "Death to America!" every Friday night.
Not invading Iran now may have consequences as catastrophic as the consequences we've suffered for not invading Iran three decades ago.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 9:36pm
We should have overthrown the government of Iran in 1979. If we had, thousands of American lives would have been saved and 9/11 never would have happened.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 9:36pm
Thanks for that rightwingnutcase. We can always count on you for some comic relief.
Debating you is like debating creationists. Never let evidence ge tin the way of a good piece of right wing BS.
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 10:04pm
Not invading Iran now may have consequences as catastrophic as the consequences we've suffered for not invading Iran three decades ago.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 9:36pm
What's happened to you rightwingnutcase? A few weeks ago , you were arguing that an attack on Iran woudl be a bad idea and disastrous. You even painted Persians as noble and progressive.
Since you lost your marbles and went all KKK on black people, it seems you want to destroy all Muslims.
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 10:24pm
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 10:24pm | ignore this person | warn this person
ah shingo. Still trapped in that reality-based community, I see.
Posted by rykart at 11/08/2009 @ 10:35pm
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/08/2009 @ 9:36pm
This has to go down as your most deranged and unhinged post ever, even by your deranged and unhinged standards.
I suspect you long ago gave up trying to contribute anything worthwhile to this blog and are now simply posting outrageous BS just for kicks and attention.
Iran had nothing to do with the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. In fact, Zbigniew Brzezinski has admitted that the US financed Islamic extremists to provoke the Soviets into invading.
Taliban would never have come to power becasue of our policy or arming the warlords. Iran were attacked by Iran and never have invaded Iraq. Tens of thousands, of Israelis haven't been killed to save. Hezbollah and Hamas were created by Israel.
Iran are enemies of AQ and never supported them or the Taliban, whom they are also enemies with. Iran has not killed any American soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan. Iran is planning on invading Bahrain. Iran is not making nukes. It is not waging a proxy war on us. It has never threatened genocide against Israel. It had no involvement in 9/11 as the 911 Commission verified.
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 10:36pm
Sorry, that should have read "Iran is not planning on invading Bahrain" seeing as they've never attacked or invaded anyone in 300 years.
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 11:05pm
Sorry, that should have read "Iran is not planning on invading Bahrain" seeing as they've never attacked or invaded anyone in 300 years.
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 11:05pm
Yeah, they prefer to use terrorists they've housed and trained in the Beka Valley for decades to do their attacking and invading.
In 1996, a howitzer was discovered in Belgium that had been shipped from Iran to be used in a terrorist attack in Germany.
Highly placed Iranian officials were implicated in the assasination of Kurdish leaders in Germany, known as the "Mikonos Affair".
Iranian intelligence has also led the way in murdering opponents to the Iranian regime outside of Iran. Yes, murder committed in other countries.
Iran directed the 1983 suicide bombings of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 61 people, the Marine barracks in Beirut, killing 39 people, and the French army barracks in Beirut, killing 74.
Let's get this straight. Iran is not the Switzerland you seem to want it to be perceived as. There are other ways to "attack and invade" other countries besides rolling tanks across a border. Iran is a terror sponsor, no two ways about it.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/09/2009 @ 07:44am
Sorry, that should have read "Iran is not planning on invading Bahrain" seeing as they've never attacked or invaded anyone in 300 years.
Posted by Shingo at 11/08/2009 @ 11:05pm
Yeah, they prefer to use terrorists they've housed and trained in the Beka Valley for decades to do their attacking and invading.
In 1996, a howitzer was discovered in Belgium that had been shipped from Iran to be used in a terrorist attack in Germany.
Highly placed Iranian officials were implicated in the assasination of Kurdish leaders in Germany, known as the "Mikonos Affair".
Iranian intelligence has also led the way in murdering opponents to the Iranian regime outside of Iran. Yes, murder committed in other countries.
Iran directed the 1983 suicide bombings of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 61 people, the Marine barracks in Beirut, killing 39 people, and the French army barracks in Beirut, killing 74.
Let's get this straight. Iran is not the Switzerland you seem to want it to be perceived as. There are other ways to "attack and invade" other countries besides rolling tanks across a border. Iran is a terror sponsor, no two ways about it.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/09/2009 @ 07:44am
Iran directed the 1983 suicide bombings of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 61 people, the Marine barracks in Beirut, killing 39 people, and the French army barracks in Beirut, killing 74. Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/09/2009 @
certainly seems less offensive than blowing up a civilian hotel, massacring 92 innocent people--an evil deed the current Nazi parasite leader of israel shows up to celebrate!
http://tiny.cc/v3lXN
(We'll leave the recent terrorist civilian massacre in Gaza outlined in Goldstone's report aside for the moment, as well as America's terrorist assault on Iraq which has left one million dead and counting)
Get a clue.
Posted by rykart at 11/09/2009 @ 11:02am
Yeah, they prefer to use terrorists they've housed and trained in the Beka Valley
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/09/2009 @ 07:44am
Ah, you mean the terrorists who have twice driven Israel out of Lebanon? The ones who resisted occupation? How dare those Lebanese not succumb to the will of Israel right? BTW. Hebollah have never invaded anyone.
"In 1996, a howitzer was discovered in Belgium..."
Really? According to whom? I'd love to read the report on that.
I guess you forgot all about how the US blew and Iranian airliner out of the air in Iranian air space, killing all 290 on board? The US captain was awarded a medal by Reagan.
"Iranian intelligence has also led the way in murdering opponents to the Iranian regime outside of Iran. Yes, murder committed in other countries."
Wow. What kinf of country carries out extra judicial killings!! Oh wait...
Extrajudicial Assassinations As Official Israeli Policy http://tinyurl.com/yh7yedv
US extrajudicial reach extends to assassination of spouses and progeny http://tinyurl.com/ye6f835
"Iran directed the 1983 suicide bombings of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 61 people..."
Actually that was carried out by Lebanese nationals (Hezbollah) who were pissed at the US military presence in their country and pissed at the US for the shelling of southern Lebanon by the USS New Jersery.
"Iran is a terror sponsor, no two ways about it."
Posted by Shingo at 11/09/2009 @ 6:52pm
"Iran is a terror sponsor, no two ways about it."
So are we. The US supports the al Qaeda affiliated group, Jundulla, as it carries out suicide attacks in Tehran. Jundulla is Kaleid Sheik Mohammed's old gang. The same KSM who masterminded 911.
The US supports the MEK (Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization) as they set off bombs in Tehran. The MEK as lsted byt eh state department as a terrosit group and have killed Americans.
Now, remind me again who sponsors terror?
Posted by Shingo at 11/09/2009 @ 6:53pm
Rav Kook = Rabbi Cook
BTW, President Obama also called for Arab countries to offer steps toward normalization of their relations to Israel as the incentive for Israel to agree to a settlement freeze, and he couldn't get one Arab country to offer anything of note. That is why, IMHO, he has backed off from forcing a settlement freeze on Israel.
Posted by YM at 11/09/2009 @ 7:13pm
"What's happened to you rightwingnutcase? A few weeks ago , you were arguing that an attack on Iran woudl be a bad idea"
I've undergone an ideological conversion.
"You even painted Persians as noble and progressive."
Historically, yes. The Persian people have been.
"Since you lost your marbles and went all KKK on black people"
I went all KKK on black people?
"Iran had nothing to do with the Soviets invaded Afghanistan."
I never claimed it did. The Soviets wouldn't have occupied Afghanistan if we were occupying its neighbor, Iran.
Iran invaded Iraq in an act of naked aggression, killing a million people.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/09/2009 @ 11:13pm
"I suspect you long ago gave up trying to contribute anything worthwhile to this blog and are now simply posting outrageous BS just for kicks"
Not quite, though I do enjoy arguing for points of view I don't really believe in to provoke a reaction from the loons here at the Nation.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/09/2009 @ 11:16pm
"it seems you want to destroy all Muslims."
Absurd.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/09/2009 @ 11:18pm
"Iran invaded Iraq in an act of naked aggression, killing a million people."
How could it have been a naked act of aggression if Iraq had already attacked Iran and both countries were in a decade long war?
Was the US attack on Japan in WWII a naked act of aggression?
"Not quite, though I do enjoy arguing for points of view I don't really believe in to provoke a reaction from the loons here at the Nation."
The loons are ones who believe that Iran had anything to do with 911.
"Absurd."
Your posts? Yes they are.
Posted by Shingo at 11/09/2009 @ 11:55pm
BTW, what caused you to undergo an ideological conversion? Did you have mental breakdown or did you take a bad trip?
Posted by Shingo at 11/09/2009 @ 11:58pm
RIGTHWINGNUTCASE, I never saw a liar like you all in my life.Iran attacked Iraq?Even a mentally retarded person knows the truth.Your comments in support of racist Israel will never get the desired results.The world has changed a lot.People have the opportunity to know the truth.They are now not depend fully on junks like BBC,CNN,FOX etc. I can't call you a fool,nutcase because fools will beat me for spoiling their name.
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/10/2009 @ 12:06pm
We can't open the eyes of people who are pretend as sleeping just by calling.Nutcase is one.
Betz55 and shingo. thanks for your postings.
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/10/2009 @ 12:20pm
"How could it have been a naked act of aggression if Iraq had already attacked Iran and both countries were in a decade long war?"
According to John Mearsheimer, Iran threatened Iraq, carried out terrorism against Iraq, tried to assassinate members of Saddam's regime, and planned on eventually assassinating Saddam. Saddam invaded a small part of Iran in 1980 to counter this aggression. He withdrew in 1983. Iran then invaded Iraq using suicidal human wave attacks. It refused any peace deal until 1988, when the UN finally got Iran to surrender.
"Iran attacked Iraq?Even a mentally retarded person knows the truth."
The notion that Iraq attacked Iran was one of the many lies the Bush administration insinuated to support its pointless war in Iraq.
"BTW, what caused you to undergo an ideological conversion?"
The Objective Standard.
Iran is the most serious threat to America since Axis Japan.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/10/2009 @ 5:03pm
TELL US AN EXAMPLE TO PROVE AN IRANIAN THREAT TO US.
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/11/2009 @ 11:49am
NUTCASE, I WILL TEACH YOU SOME HISTORY ABOUT MIDDLE EAST LATER. Post your doubts. I have the patience to teach a moron like you.
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/11/2009 @ 11:55am