Buzzflash
del.icio.us
Digg
Facebook
Mixx it!
RedditLet's leave aside, for today, Vice President Biden's incredibly destructive comments on Israel's "sovereign" right to bomb Iran, remarks that are widely being interpreted in the Middle East as a green light from the United States for Israel to launch an attack. If the bungling veep meant what he said, then we're in big trouble. Even if he didn't, it's bound to give fuel to Iran's hardliners in their inane campaign to blame the US, the UK and Israel for Iran's home-grown opposition movement. Thankfully, comments from a White House spokesman and from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs may have undercut Babblin' Joe this time.
In Iran itself, efforts by the Ahmadinejad-Khamenei regime to silence the opposition clearly aren't working yet. The street protests, brutally suppressed, have quieted. But the political opposition continues to build.
Most important, none of the oppositionists are backing down. Mir Hossein Mousavi, Mehdi Karroubi, and former President Khatami have all continued to press their challenge to the regime. According to a reformist newspaper in Iran, Etemad-e-Melli, Mousavi is planning to organize a political party that can carry the movement forward. (There are, in Iran, no real political parties. In the election, although Mousavi ran with the support of the reformist establishment, students, the business class, women, and other constituencies -- including many clerics -- he did not have a political party to support him, with offices in cities and provinces and a staff.)
Mousavi also laid out a detailed challenge to the fraudulent, June 12 presidential election, in a 24-page document issued Saturday. He pointed out that the interior minister, who counted the votes, and the head of the Guardian Council, who certified the bogus result, are both close allies of Khamenei and Ahmadinejad who'd endorsed the president's reelection. He noted that the commanders of the Revolutionary Guard had said they wouldn't accept anyone but Ahmadinejad. And he charged that twenty million extra ballots were printed. Amid charges that he is a traitor and threats to arrest him, Mousavi's latest moves show that he isn't giving up.
Meanwhile, Rafsanjani -- reportedly still busily rallying clerics to support an effort to overturn the election -- met in public with relatives of those arrested in the regime's post-election crackdown, a defiant act that raises his profile. And Khatami issued a blistering statement about the fraud and the subsequent crackdown:
"Many people voted because we called for a high turnout. With this result and the way of confrontation (with post-election protests) you can be sure that even us (reformers) cannot ask people to take part in the next election. ..."If you want to calm the atmosphere, why are you carrying out mass arrests? Oppressing people will not help end the protests. If these people have committed crimes, why are their legal rights as citizens not preserved, why don't they have access to a lawyer, why are they not tried in a court, why haven't they been charged?"
And he blasted the circus-style "confessions" by those under arrest:
"Obtaining confessions in front of cameras is a useless old method. Confessions under pressure are not valid."
Most stunning, and widely reported, is the fact that a leading clerical body in Qom, Iran's religious capital, issued a strong statement calling the election a fraud. The statement, from the Association of Researchers and Teachers of Qom -- a mainstream group that includes many reformists in its ranks -- said:
"Candidates' complaints and strong evidence of vote-rigging were ignored. ... Peaceful protests by Iranians were violently oppressed. Dozens of Iranians were killed and hundreds were illegally arrested. The outcome is invalid."
In a statement reported by PressTV, an Iranian state-controlled satellite broadcasting network, Rafsanjani further criticized the election during his meeting with the families of those arrested:
"People from across the country created a very positive and epic scene by showing up at the polls, but unfortunately the events that followed and the problems that were created for some turned bitter. I do not believe that any alert conscience could be content about the circumstances that have unfolded. By respecting the rights of all citizens, we must try to maintain our unity and understanding and raise the trust in our system and its credibility among the people and prevent enemies from taking advantage."
Rafsanjani is playing a middle game, trying to appeal to those on the fence, in part by appealing to them to rise in defense of the entire system. Many conservative clerics, caught in the middle, fear that the reformists push Iran down a slippery slope toward the collapse of the entire system, so Rafsanjani is making the oppositve argument: that the regime's own actions threaten disunity and political explosions that could spell the end of the Islamic Republic. As chairman of the Expediency Council, a clerical body designed to resolve disputes within the system, and as chairman of the Assembly of Experts, another body of clerics who have the responsibility to appoint -- or dismiss -- the Leader, Ali Khamenei, Rafsanjani wields great power.
None of this, of course, is enough to force a new election or to remove either Ahmadinejad or Khamenei, who are committed to hanging on to power by force of arms. At the very least, the regime's intelligence apparatus knows about every detail of what's happening behind the scenes, and they won't permit Mousavi, Karroubi, Rafsanjani et al. much maneuvering room. But it shows that the opposition isn't giving up, and that Round Two of the post-election showdown may be underway soon.
Share this article
Robert Dreyfuss
A chronicle of America's adventures in foreign policy and national security.
RSS
Dreyfuss: in all honesty, the West's characterization of Moussavi as a "reformer" is probably a bigger problem then any Israeli bombing plans. For one thing, Israel is not going to be allowed to bomb anything while Obama is President; this means their proxies here in the US will try to limit Obama to a single term, but also means there is no near-term bombing threat. More important, though, is that the degree to which US- and Britain- based parties and figures - both governmental and private - are defining Moussavi as a "reformer" and siding with him. The degree of Western involvement now in Iran's internal politics is decidedly at the level of "interference" and given that, yes, Western intelligence and covert operations will be taking place in Iran even right now, the situation threatens to escalate into "US intervention" in Iran's internal affairs.
Historically, attempting to intervene in Iran's affairs is a bad idea.
On a final note, it would be really, really, really helpful if Western journalists be they yourself or Roger Cohen and the NYT or any others would, instead of simply referring to Moussavi as a "reformer" or "centrist", and leaving people with a rhetorically-generated sunny image in their minds, actually present Moussavi's history, as well as the histories of the figures around him (eg Rafsanjani).
These "reformers" have decidedly corrupt and questionable histories ...
Posted by syfriendly at 07/06/2009 @ 11:08am
Dreyfuss: My point is that Western journalists are painting what really could be a power struggle internal to Iran between factions that aren't ultimately too different into some black-and-white, good-vs-evil struggle between the Khameini-Ahmadinejad axis of evil and the forces-of-light Moussavi-Rafsanjani alliance. This is probably not an entirely accurate picture, and it may be a bad idea to convince the public here that one side is truly better than the other. Pragmatically, one side may be more desirable from the views and agendas in Western politics vis-a-vis Iran, but that falls into the category "interference" not the category "siding with the forces of light/"reform" in Iran. Western journalists may be really misleading the public.
Posted by syfriendly at 07/06/2009 @ 11:19am
Let's just keep it simple now-
You can choose from-
1. Robert Dreyfuss is right.
2. "Israel should and WILL bomb the crap out of Iran."
3. "Anybody criticial of Iran, even Iranians, are pawns of the Vast Israeli-Western Imperialist Consspiracy!"
or 4. "Who the f**k knows what is going on over there, anyway?"
Should about cover everybody, yes?
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 11:23am
and which camp do you fall into, mr. everybody?
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/06/2009 @ 11:37am
ok...whatever happens...
LETS STAY OUT OF IT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS...
meddling on our part is, more than usual, fraught with danger.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/06/2009 @ 11:46am
Syfriendly, in my Nation cover story I painted a long, detailed and nuanced protrait of the pro-Mousavi coalition that was anything but black and white.
On the other hand, what IS black and white is that it's the regime that is arresting peaceful protestors and oppositionists, shooting people in the streets, forcing confessions, and so on.
The pro-Mousavi coalition includes those who support the Islamic Republic system and those who don't, along with those who take a middle ground. It includes businessmen who are angry about Ahmadinejad's mismananagement of the economy. It includes conservative clerics who want to preserve the power of the clergy in politics, who believe that Khamenei is discrediting political Islam, Iran-style. As I said in the Nation piece, Mousavia and his allies are hardly revolutionaries. But they're being pushed into a corner in which, more and more, it looks like some sort of "revolution" is their only option.
Posted by RobertDreyfuss at 07/06/2009 @ 12:21pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/06/2009 @ 11:37am
Definitely #4, FZ.....you?
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 12:26pm
Posted by RobertDreyfuss at 07/06/2009 @ 12:21pm
Sorry, Mr Dreyfuss, but by not recognizing the total legitimacy of Ahmadinejad's election....the total "fifth columnist for Israel" nature of the so-called "protestors"...and the fact that this is all an evil plot by the West to bring down an independent-of-their-corporate-control country...
you're a mere dupe of AIPAC and likely not even a dupe, but a willing co-conspirator.
Sorry to break it to you.
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 12:28pm
Mr Dreyfuss,
I'm no supporter of VP Biden, but you clearly distorted his remarks which I watched and listened to yesterday.
He made it clear (and it was the correct thing to say), that Israel is a sovereign nation that determines for itself what it needs to do to defend it's security. He was making it clear that we don't dictate to Israel how, when, or even who they defend themselves against, because they are not under the authority of the US.
Do you prefer instead that he said that "the US will tell Israel whether they can defend themselves or not"?
Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 12:29pm
Would Israel be "defending " itself like Bush "defended" the US against Iraq?
They should be more worried about Pakistan falling apart than Iran using a Bomb. They should be more worried about granting human status to the Palestinians in refugee camps than about Ahmadinejad. If they could finally put their theological ideology aside and replace it with humanity, they could pull the rug right out from under the Muslim extremists in Iran and the Arab nations.
Or they can kill thousands of other people kids and repeat the last 40 years.
Posted by crabwalk at 07/06/2009 @ 12:37pm
Antisocialist, the fact is that even during the Bush administration, the US told Israel (in 2007-2008) in point blank terms that attacking Iran is forbidden. They sent Admiral Mullen over there to do it. I don't necessarily expect Biden to say so publicly, but he could have said: "None of want Iran to get a nuclear bomb, but the fact is Iran is not very close to achieving that goal. So we have lots of time to deal with it diplomatically. In the meantime, we urge all parties, including Israel, to avoid taking any action, including military action, that could have extremely dangerous and incalculable consequences for the entire region." PS That's pretty much what Mullen said, again, yesterday.
Posted by RobertDreyfuss at 07/06/2009 @ 12:42pm
Posted by RobertDreyfuss at 07/06/2009 @ 12:42pm
But at the end of the day, Biden and Obama both know that Israel will as is their right, take whatever steps they determine necessary to defend their security. So Mullen's statement is meaningless other than communicating Obama's lack of stomach for confrontation.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 12:44pm
Posted by RobertDreyfuss at 07/06/2009 @ 12:42pm
Keep in mind, Mr Dreyfuss, Larry (antisocialist) holds it as a matter of RELIGIOUS FAITH that Iran will go to war with Israel.
All thoughts and analysis stem from that and can never contradict that.
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 12:50pm
Obama's lack of stomach for confrontation.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 12:44pm
Sick and twisted analysis.
Have you not had enough death and destruction in your life? Why is your answer to these problems always "Bomb the hell out of those children, let gOd sort 'em out"? Have you not realized, in your 6 decades on this earth, that the people in power are not the ones that will pay the cost for your desire to see someone, anyone, punished?
Seeing as Israel has attacked Iran (and Lebanon, Syria, Egypt etc) and Iran has not attacked Israel, an argument can easily be made that it is Iran that needs to protect itself from the only nuclear bombs in the region.
Yes, Isreal has the right to defend itself, but the idea of pre-emptive strikes has been worn out with Bush's failed attempts in Iraq, and Israels continued killing of more civilians than terrorists.
Posted by crabwalk at 07/06/2009 @ 1:07pm
Keep in mind, Mr Dreyfuss, Larry (antisocialist) holds it as a matter of RELIGIOUS FAITH that Iran will go to war with Israel.
All thoughts and analysis stem from that and can never contradict that.
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 12:50pm
Nice strawman Mask. my opinion on Iran's intentions has nothing to do with whether or not other countries can determine their own national security apart from the US.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 1:08pm
Pro Israel provocative statements are very much expected from lackluster politicians like "I am A Zionist" Joe Biden. Joe Biden has few distinguished achievements to justify his long political career other than his relentless ass- kissing of the AIPAC crowd. We Americans should prepare ourselves for more bloody wars if we continue to allow politicians like Biden to mold us closer into the Zionist's agenda.
Serving as proxy provocateurs to further the Israeli Biblical crusade is not in the American interest period. We should have learned our lesson from following the lead of the Israeli-Firsters Neocons into the Iraq war. This war served no one but the Neocon's motherland Israel.
It is the same Neocons crowd with some spineless politicians in Congress, whose sole existence depends on the Zionist's largess, want us to attack Iran. The Israelis want us to launch another bloody and costly war to make them feel secure after the thievery and genocide they have committed against the Palestinians.
It is sheer hypocrisy to just focus on a hypothetical future Iranian threat while ignoring the Israeli present threat to the peace and stability of the Middle East. The Iranians will gladly give up any nuclear ambition if the Israelis dismantle their vast and illicit nuclear stockpile. The Iranians will be more than willing to compromise if the Israelis also cease their defiance of over 125 outstanding UN resolutions against them. But it is a pipedream for America to remain the sponsor of a lawless state like Israel while expecting Iran to play by the rules.
Maybe the Iranians have their internal differences, but let's harbor no illusion about the strength of the Iranian unity if America is fool enough to follow Zionist Biden's Advice.
Posted by CripThink at 07/06/2009 @ 1:24pm
Posted by RobertDreyfuss at 07/06/2009 @ 12:21pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Thanks for directing me to your cover story, which I'll definitely read. I think my point (that Western journalists are really not telling the public much about the so-called "reformers") holds true even if you yourself have produced deeper coverage of these figures. However, if you are providing people with deeper information where others are not, then "Good Journalist!" to you.
Posted by syfriendly at 07/06/2009 @ 1:30pm
Posted by RobertDreyfuss at 07/06/2009 @ 12:21pm | ignore this person | warn this person
As a final note on this matter to you, I really encourage you to think carefully about hoping for a "revolution" in Iran that brings Moussavi et al into power. A lot of people are dying tragically already. How much is "reform" in Iran worth, if it isn't really much reform? How many lives? One of the saddest aspects of politics in the Muslim world, I am sure you'll agree, is the way that bloodshed and death tends to readily accompany political dispute. Let's all hope one way or another for fewer dead Iranians -
Posted by syfriendly at 07/06/2009 @ 1:34pm
Does anyone else find it odd that Dreyfuss has repeatedly responded to comments posted by Syfriendly, who is his biggest booster on this site. Almost as if some of syfriendly's comments are a set-up to allow Dreyfuss to respond to softball criticisms and questions. Probably I'm far off base, but I'm curious whether anyone else has questions about those interactions.
Posted by gren at 07/06/2009 @ 1:42pm
Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 1:08pm |
I didn't say that, Larry. I said
"Keep in mind, Mr Dreyfuss, Larry (antisocialist) holds it as a matter of RELIGIOUS FAITH that Iran will go to war with Israel.
All thoughts and analysis stem from that and can never contradict that."
Is that basically true or not?
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 2:07pm
I didn't say that, Larry. I said
"Keep in mind, Mr Dreyfuss, Larry (antisocialist) holds it as a matter of RELIGIOUS FAITH that Iran will go to war with Israel.
All thoughts and analysis stem from that and can never contradict that."
Is that basically true or not?
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 2:07pm
Again, that has nothing to do with the topic. It is a strawman argument about Israel's soveriegnty.
My views on what the Bible says about the future have ZERO to do with whether Obama should attempt to dictate Israel's decisions on self-defense. Or do you know hold to the view now that a Democrat is in office that the president should control other govt's?
Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 2:12pm
Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 2:12pm
Do your RELIGIOUS VIEWS impact your opinions and analysis of Iran, Israel, and events surrounding those two counntries....or not?
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 2:20pm
Do your RELIGIOUS VIEWS impact your opinions and analysis of Iran, Israel, and events surrounding those two counntries....or not?
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 2:20pm
Again Mask---
My religious views have NOTHING to do with the topic.
I can only surmise from your refusal to answer that you indeed support the idea of a Democratic President (and only a Democratic President) dictating to other countries what their decisions on self defense must be.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 2:28pm
You know Nothing about what you propose to be an "expert" on.
Posted by IlyaKuryakin at 07/06/2009 @ 1:42pm
I wouldn't be so harsh on Robert Dreyfuss. Maximizing the number of clicks and hits are the ultimate objective of anyone in this field. I am sure that Robert would love to go back to write again about his true field of expertise; that is the Arab/Israeli conflict. However, reporting truthfully about the Arab/Israeli conflict comes with hefty price tag (ask any journalist). I am sure that Robert Dreyfuss has suffered the consequences of his objectivity every time he delved into Arab/ Israeli conflict issues. Reporting on Iran comes second on the reward/punishment scale; however, it is a refuge that is worth coming to occasionally to hide from the wrath of the Zionist bulldogs.
When we don't agree with Robert Dreyfuss; let's do that with civility.
Posted by CripThink at 07/06/2009 @ 2:38pm
Somebody needs to put a sock in Biden's mouth.When Israel attacked Iraq's nuclear plant, it was inactive and without nuclear material. Iran's plants are fully operational and "successful" attacks on them could produces a number of Chernobyls. Israel would feel the blow back from such an attack.This is stupid!
Posted by pjcasey at 07/06/2009 @ 2:43pm
Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 2:28pm
The topic is Iran and tangentially Israel....you start from a basic world-view that a war between Israel and Iran is INEVITABLE, unavoidable, "destined"...true?
That's a pretty heavy element to your analysis and opinion on this topic, isn't it?
And again, on what BASIS is your view that war with Iran is inevitable?
(Also, interesting that you don't want to embrace it....isn't that somewhat like "denying God"????)
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 3:16pm
Illyakuryakin-Declaring yourself to be aware is as pathetic as those who come on here declaring themselves to be brilliant.The reason you people feel that you must tell us that you are aware or brilliant is because you know that that is not reflected in your posts so you hope that we are ignorant enough to take your word for it.Most are not that ignorant and we will decide if you guys are aware or brilliant based upon your posts and will not take your word for it.Nothing you have posted even implies that you are aware and,mostly,you just attack people.
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/06/2009 @ 3:17pm
The Obamanation that makes desolation is sure strongly favoring proping up terrorist states all while diminishing and even interferring in the soveriegn actions of democratic ones like all good marxists should! I'm sure he will make great efforts to bridle his VP's future openess and transparentcy!
Posted by BigPasture at 07/06/2009 @ 3:24pm
Posted by BigPasture at 07/06/2009 @ 3:24pm
Hey, RIO...Obama thinks the Sun is yellow and is a big ball of fire in space...
surely you're not going to let that stand uncontested, are you?
LOL
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 3:32pm
Yea, the Obamanation that makes desolation has a real "love affair" going on with marxists and totalitarians all over the world fool in a Mask!
"U.S. officials say Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton plans to meet ousted Honduran President Manuel Zelaya this week. It would be the highest-level contact the Obama administration has had with Zelaya since he was deposed last week.
Zelaya is expected in Washington on Tuesday following an unsuccessful attempt to return to Honduras over the weekend that deepened the country's political crisis. The State Department says the administration remains committed to seeing a restoration of democratic order in Honduras and deplored the use of force against Zelaya's supporters.
Zelaya tried to fly back Sunday, but his plane was not allowed to land by Honduran authorities. Clashes between police and soldiers and thousands of Zelaya supporters left at least one fatality. "
Posted by BigPasture at 07/06/2009 @ 3:41pm
Question Mask, would Obama bow or kiss Chavez's hand or is a courtsey more his style?
Posted by BigPasture at 07/06/2009 @ 3:43pm
bigpasture-Obama would just shake his hand ,like every other politician would.
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/06/2009 @ 3:57pm
"U.S. officials say Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton plans to meet ousted Honduran President Manuel Zelaya this week.
Posted by BigPasture at 07/06/2009 @ 3:41pm
You did not seem to mind when Hillary met with the Israeli Fascist Evigdor Lieberman and shook his hand too.
Posted by CripThink at 07/06/2009 @ 4:16pm
Posted by CripThink at 07/06/2009 @ 4:16pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Hmmm... you must mean Avigdor L. the Official Foreign Minister of Israel rather than a deposed Marxist Zelaya seeking to wrest control of a Democratic country from its congress, supreme court, and the citizens!
I see no resemblance, but I'm sure in your mind there is! A jewish fascist is an oxymoron, but considering the sourse, not surprising.
Posted by BigPasture at 07/06/2009 @ 5:43pm
In Jewish Palestine's 100 years of existence, every provocation, land grab and war has been started and / or maintained by Israel under the excuse / lie of "self defense." When Biden the Bubble Head says Israel has a right to "defend" itself, it means, in no uncertain terms, that the administration (hence America) will look the other way when Israel starts another war. This man is truly twisted.
Thanks, Mr. Dreyfuss, for clarifying your position in the comments.
Posted by DejaVu at 07/06/2009 @ 6:38pm
Hmmm... you must mean Avigdor L. the Official Foreign Minister of Israel rather than a deposed Marxist Zelaya seeking to wrest control of a Democratic country from its congress, supreme court, and the citizens!
Posted by BigPasture at 07/06/2009 @ 5:43pm
No he means the democratically elected leader of Honduras who was illegitimately removed by the military in a coup.
And no, he did not seek to wrest control of a Democratic country.
He proposed that an additional ballot box be provided at the next election with the text:
"Do you agree with the installation of a fourth ballot box during the 2009 general elections so that the people can decide on the calling of a national constituent assembly? Yes or no.""
Furthermore, since the Honduran constitution forbids a president from succeeding himself or herself, Zelaya's name would not even be on the ballot in the November election. How, then, could he have extended his term? Answer: He couldn't, and, furthermore, he had no intention of doing so.
You really should try to refrain from soiling yourself so often. Even for a wingnut, it is unbecoming.
Posted by Shingo at 07/06/2009 @ 6:52pm
The topic is Iran and tangentially Israel....you start from a basic world-view that a war between Israel and Iran is INEVITABLE, unavoidable, "destined"...true?
That's a pretty heavy element to your analysis and opinion on this topic, isn't it?
And again, on what BASIS is your view that war with Iran is inevitable?
(Also, interesting that you don't want to embrace it....isn't that somewhat like "denying God"????)
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 3:16pm
What it is, with my responses to you is that I'm not being sucked into going off track like you are prone to attempting with everyone.
My Biblical views have NOTHING to do with the right of Israel to determine their own continued existence apart from the president of the US (regardless of party) trying to dictate their self defense.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 6:53pm
I see no resemblance, but I'm sure in your mind there is! A jewish fascist is an oxymoron, but considering the sourse, not surprising.
Posted by BigPasture at 07/06/2009 @ 5:43pm
Yes, I mean the illegitimate fascist Avigdor Lieberman, the Foreign Minister of the illegitimate fascist State called Israel. He is a man who openly calls for the expulsion the Palestinian owners of their land to create an exclusive religious State. Even a moron like you should see this as a criminal act of apartheid. After all, you are deploring Marxists because they take away people's freedom; aren't you.
Beside Zelaya, can you comment about our long history of supporting right wing military Juntas in South America? Including those who rapped nuns, committed mass murders and overturned democratically elected governments? We Shook their hands, embraced them and gave them money and military assistance.
Posted by CripThink at 07/06/2009 @ 7:21pm
DREYFUSS: "If the bungling veep meant what he said, then we're in big trouble."
Who's "we"?
After Joe B. complimented some guy as an articulate, clean black man....look what happened?
After Joe B. said that BHO will be `tested' within 6 months of Inauguration, he's already passed ALL the tests with 58% Approval!
Stop scaring "we"!
Posted by Happy at 07/06/2009 @ 7:26pm
My Biblical views have NOTHING to do with the right of Israel to determine their own continued existence apart from the president of the US (regardless of party) trying to dictate their self defense.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 6:53pm
We don't believe you antisocialist. because quite frankly, your support of Israel borders on pathological and goes well beyond supporting Israel's existence.
When Obama gave his speech in Cairo, you attacked him for using the terms occupation and occupied territory, arguing that it contradicted US policy.
Only an evangelical end to timer would be so obsessed with preserving the illegal settlements in the occupied territories.
Posted by Shingo at 07/06/2009 @ 7:36pm
"If the bungling veep meant what he said, then we're in big trouble." Posted by Happy at 07/06/2009 @ 7:26pm
No trouble Happy, it is chicken Biden coming to roost at his Zionist Coop.
Posted by CripThink at 07/06/2009 @ 7:39pm
Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 6:53pm
So the discussion is on a matter of WAR between Israel and Iran (which a bombing would be)...
and your unshakable religious belief ON the inevitability of such a war...is irrelevant??!???!?!?
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 7:45pm
cripthink-You,quite obviously,have no clue as to what a Zionist is and just use the term to mean anyone who leans towards Israel which is,hardly,what a Zionist is.If you guys want to be taken seriously then you may wish to use these terms properly and try not to sound so paranoid where you see Zionists under your bed.
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/06/2009 @ 7:57pm
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/06/2009 @ 7:57pm
Now, IN, that's not fair...I asked CripThink about his theory on Zionism and how he came about it-
Crip-"Well, I, uh... I... I... first became aware of it, Mask, during the physical act of love....Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed.
Luckily I... I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence.
I can assure you it has not recurred, Mask. Women uh... women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh... I do not avoid women, Mask."
Mask: No?
Crip: But I... I do deny them my essence.
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 8:05pm
Mask-I have become aware of many things during the physical act of love,but never became aware of anything related to politics.Although,there were some times where I became aware of economics since I paid for the physical act of love.
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/06/2009 @ 8:19pm
Nice strawman Mask. my opinion on Iran's intentions has nothing to do with whether or not other countries can determine their own national security apart from the US. Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 1:08pm
Er... Is Ms Palin online to translate?
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 07/06/2009 @ 8:43pm
Er... Is Ms Palin online to translate?
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 07/06/2009 @ 8:43pm
Priceless.
Posted by Shingo at 07/06/2009 @ 9:19pm
cripthink-You,quite obviously,have no clue as to what a Zionist is ... Posted by i'm nobody at 07/06/2009 @ 7:57pm
nobody,
Apparently, you are nobody in the intellectual sense as well. Go read an elementary essay on the history of the Zionist movement and educate yourself, I have, certainly, never invited you to my classroom. Clearly, I don't count on people of your lightweight caliber to take what I say seriously. The lurking Zionists understand me very well and that what counts. I don't speak to win a popularity contest among idiots. I am a victim of the Zionists, and I mean every word I say. Biden called himself a Zionist; it is not a term that I coined. Go bark at different tree and spare me your shitty sermons.
Posted by CripThink at 07/06/2009 @ 9:31pm
cripthink-I see,that like so many others, you went for the juvenile put down rather than attempt to learn something or show that you do know what a Zionist is..I do not need to study an elementary essay because I studied to become Jewish for several years and am quite aware of what a Zionist is.I'm just trying to get you to find out what a Zionist is.You are not a victim of Zionists nor are there lurking Zionists who understand you nor do you have a classroom and I do not need you to invite me to respond to you and will do so whenever I feel like doing so.You seem to be troubled and quite paranoid and you can get help for that,but I would suggest that you avoid Jewish therapists.
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/06/2009 @ 9:40pm
You seem to be troubled and quite paranoid and you can get help for that,but I would suggest that you avoid Jewish therapists.
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/06/2009 @ 9:40pm
Ah, more facts began to trickle in; you are then a very complicated Zionist who harbored physiological scars for millenniums. Tell us how it felt when your Zionist ancestors practiced the rituals of slaughtering Palestinians women and children in Deir Yassin, in Qana, in Nabateyah, in Gaza and Jenin. Take a live tour to learn your bloody history; you jerk, maybe it will shed some light on the real meaning of Zionism: http://resistance.jeeran.com/massacres/006.htm
Posted by CripThink at 07/06/2009 @ 10:06pm
Crip-"Well, I, uh... I... I... first became aware of it... Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 8:05pm
Mask,
You act as the constant pokes you got in the butt causing you to bleed, go seek medical attention at a proper facility boy; sorry, can't undue it.
Posted by CripThink at 07/06/2009 @ 10:13pm
Posted by Shingo at 07/06/2009 @ 6:52pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Well now isn't that special! An incompetent student of revisionist history has spoken!
Posted by BigPasture at 07/06/2009 @ 10:13pm
My Biblical views have NOTHING to do with the right of Israel to determine their own continued existence apart from the president of the US (regardless of party) trying to dictate their self defense. Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 6:53pm
Here, have some more planes....
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 07/06/2009 @ 10:30pm
cripthink-Actually,I'm not a Zionist even though I do support Jews and Israel.Never did become Jewish nor would Jews be my ancestors even if I had finished my conversion to Judaism.I'm glad that you got to call me a jerk,however,because your constant name calling let's me know what your real intellectual level is as did your amazingly childish response to Mask.You have nothing to teach anyone,but you do have much to learn,but until you do something about your paranoia you will never be able to learn anything.So,no I'm not a complicated Zionist who has harbored psychological scars for millenniums.I'm older,but not thousands of years old.
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/06/2009 @ 10:42pm
Well now isn't that special! An incompetent student of revisionist history has spoken!
Posted by BigPasture at 07/06/2009 @ 10:13pm
I'm still to decide of an insult from a village idiot equates to a compliment.
Posted by Shingo at 07/06/2009 @ 11:27pm
(R) osted by CripThink at 07/06/2009 @ 9:31pm
omg
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 07/06/2009 @ 11:46pm
cripthink-Actually,I'm not a Zionist even though I do support Jews and Israel....
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/06/2009 @ 10:42pm
nobody,
Hey man, I give a shit about what you are or how old you are. I judge you based on how you conduct yourself when you talk to me. You initiated your conversation like a jerk and I called you as you presented yourself.
It obvious to me, from your conflicting statements about who you are and what you support, that you are a miserable brain-washed, like millions of your compatriots who are victims of the Zionist Propaganda Machine. I sent you the link which is a visual tour of the savagery your Zionist friends have inflicted on the peaceful Palestinian people. The same people who opened their arms and hearts to the Jews who ran away from Hitler's persecution. And what did the Zionists do in return; they ran a genocide campaign to massacre, pillage and expel Palestinians from their homes and villages. These are the real Zionists I am talking about. The reason I use that term is to avoid using the word "Jews", since that is not fair. There are honorable Jews who stood and fought bravely to bring justice to the Palestinians.
It behooves you put your life in order and decide what you want, before pointing fingers at others and accuse them of being paranoid. So far you seem to be a confused old man who can't make up his mind.
Posted by CripThink at 07/06/2009 @ 11:53pm
I called a post on the Zionist / Jew distinction some threads back and the poster replied to the effect: to the anti-semite it's all the same. I hear ya, man
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 07/07/2009 @ 12:04am
<i>Posted by IlyaKuryakin at 07/06/2009 @ 1:42pm </i>
If you have some grounds for suggesting that having ballots all counted before polls are closed or (even better) having 100% turnout can best be explained by a legitimate election...I'd love to hear how. While you're at it, you could explain how the dissident movement is completely run by the U.S.
This should be interesting...because if either of those two is false, your position becomes awfully hard to sustain.
Posted by Thrawn at 07/07/2009 @ 12:08am
I called a post on the Zionist / Jew distinction some threads back and the poster replied to the effect: to the anti-semite it's all the same. I hear ya, man
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 07/07/2009
Unfortunately, to the Israeli apologist, this conflation is the gift that keeps on giving.
Posted by Shingo at 07/07/2009 @ 12:41am
You really should try to refrain from soiling yourself so often. Even for a wingnut, it is unbecoming.
Posted by Shingo at 07/06/2009 @ 6:52pm
When discussing Iran or Chavez, soiling is the starting point for the neo-cons.
-------------
Nice strawman Mask. my opinion on Iran's intentions has nothing to do with whether or not other countries can determine their own national security apart from the US. Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 1:08pm
Why can't Iran determine THEIR national security interests without the interference from the US or Israel? They have been attacked by Israel. If Iran had had nukes in the 1980's a MILLION of their people might still be alive instead of having been killed by our ally.
Classic Larry Double Standard.
If you don't think that your views on this subject are heavily influenced by your theological ideology, you do not have very good self awareness. But, we already know that about you.
Posted by crabwalk at 07/07/2009 @ 06:04am
I think that one of your major faults, Larry, is that you simply are incapable of walking even a foot in other people shoes.
Posted by crabwalk at 07/07/2009 @ 06:08am
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/06/2009 @ 8:19pm
Uh, I'M....that's from "Dr. Strangelove".
Posted by Mask at 07/07/2009 @ 08:01am
cripthink-Never made any conflicting statements,but your response was paranoid to the extreme with the craziness about my Zionist friends,propaganda machine,etc etc etc.Your claim that the Pals are peaceful people shows that,like so many others on here,that you have lived a very sheltered life and are clueless about your fellow humans.There is no group on the planet Earth that are all peaceful nor has there ever been any such group that was nor is anything ever as one sided as you and the fanatically pro Israel people believe things to be.Truth always exists closer to the middle which is why I only lean towards Israel,but do not support all that they do..Your response about putting my life in order made no sense at all just as your claim that you know all about me based upon one quick response to you made no sense.My guess is that you are another coward who would never call me names to my face,but hide behind your computer and do so.I know to reject your views because yours are identical to what I have read on neo nazi and the KKK website and they are always wrong about everything.Most of the anti Israel crowd do not sound just like them,but you and a couple of others do.Actually,I would not be considered to be an old man,yet and am just older,like I stated.It is your ego that tells you that people must agree with you in order to be considered to have their life in order,but,again,that is not reality based which means that you are detached from reality.
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/07/2009 @ 11:14am
Mask-Never saw Dr Strangelove.
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/07/2009 @ 11:22am
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/07/2009 @ 11:22am
You should. Buck Turgidson sounds like Larry/antisoc...and Major T.J. Kong sounds like HAPPY.
heheh
Posted by Mask at 07/07/2009 @ 12:01pm
Mask-Will have to check it out.
Posted by i'm nobody at 07/07/2009 @ 12:10pm
Dr. Strangelove is the best... Peter Sellers is also, actually the whole cast. A guy named or nom de plume Herb Gold wrote a short story titled The Day They Got Boston about a punch card that accidentally (?) finds its way into the computer of doom but I don't remember if it was before or after Strangelove. Who cares anyway? Seems like the prayers of the majority are coalescing into a mushroom cloud conclusion
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 07/08/2009 @ 01:19am
Pax has a "duh" flash:
If these a**holes are going to nuke the world, we had better g**damn well take away the means, every last one. The problem is global coordination, "brothers and sisters, mommies and daddies, brats and brat-ettes" everywhere around the world
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 07/08/2009 @ 01:37am
Global strikes (or a "time out" if you will) in all states with nuclear weapons until framework for disarmament is established and thereafter until the work is done. Finished. End of an era. And we are not the dinosaurs.
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 07/08/2009 @ 10:58pm