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RedditI watched President Obama's Cairo speech from Dubai, the sprawling and frenzied city of gold and shopping malls on the shores of the Arabian--er, Persian--Gulf. (I'm on my way to Tehran tomorrow, to report on the July 12 presidential elections there, and I'd better keep my "Arabian" and "Persian" Gulfs straight.)
Based on early returns from a decidedly unrepresentative sample of Arab public opinion, Obama hit a home run. I agree. (Incidentally, it's not easy to find Arabs in Dubai, a desert kleptocracy run by a super-rich ruling clan, whose population is overwhelmingly from South Asia, East Asia, southern Sudan, and other parts of Africa.) In Dubai, at least, and in its media, Obama's speech was topic one, two and three all week.
That's good and bad. Obama's arrival in Saudi Arabia and Egypt was greeted in two ways. First, it had the trappings of a visit by an all-powerful but distant Great White Father--okay, he's black, but anyway--on whose words the fate of the Arab and Muslim world hangs, which is understandable in light of the fact that American troops and sailors are everywhere. And second, in contrast, sophisticated Arab opinion was truly hopeful that Obama's remarks would make concrete the sharp break with the Imperial America as represented by the administration of George W. "Crusader" Bush. I think the latter prevailed. Obama was appropriately humble, and he laid down important markers that signal a new U.S. approach to the Middle East and beyond.
And, as CNN reported, "No one threw a shoe at his head."
He acknowledged the current state of tension, along with the history of colonialism and Cold War power politics that treated Muslim nations as chess pieces. He correctly laid the root of the tension on the Muslim world's reaction, especially among conservatives and the Islamic right, to "modernity and globalization." He acknowledged that a speech doesn't change everything. He quoted the Quran, and he spoke eloquently of the West's (and the world's) debt to Islamic civilization. "I have known Islam on three continents," he said. And he added: "Islam is part of America." Words, true – but words that I have been waiting for a long time to have heard from a president of the United States.
With Osama bin Laden's recent communiqué still echoing, Obama drew out the contrast between Islam and bin Laden's version of "violent extremism." He said that the United States has no designs on Afghanistan and no plans to establish permanent bases there. And on Iraq, he said the same: "We pursue no bases, and no claim on their territory or resources"--i.e.,, oil. And he reiterated that all U.S. forces will be out of Iraq by 2012. (All of this, of course, will require some insistence by American voters and the "Arab and Muslim street" to hold Obama to his promises.)
But it was on Palestine that Obama hit the gong:
For more than 60 years they've endured the pain of dislocation. Many wait in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighboring lands for a life of peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They endure the daily humiliations -- large and small -- that come with occupation. So let there be no doubt: The situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable. And America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian aspiration for dignity, opportunity, and a state of their own.
How long has it been since a president spoke movingly about Palestinian suffering? And in a speech so high profile, even game-changing?
He even nodded to Hamas, acknowledging that Hamas has support among the Palestinians, and – amazingly – did not refer to the organization as a "terrorist group." And, of course, he kept up the pressure on Israeli expansionism by yet again slamming the settlements in the occupied territories – an issue, that likely as not, will bring down Bibi Netanyahu's right-wing government.
On Iran, Obama stated clearly that Iran has the right to peaceful uses of nuclear energy. Indeed, it is precisely that issue that will be at the core of the coming U.S.-Iran dialogue, since for Iran its ability to enrich uranium on Iranian soil is a no-compromise concern. Yet there are plenty of ways to finesse, regulate, and internationalize that.
On democracy, Obama said that "there is no straight line" to create representative governments in the Muslim world, such as Egypt – meaning that he won't push too hard, a la Bush and the neoconservatives, for instant democratic transformation. I think he hit precisely the right note.
His closing was pure Obama:
The Holy Koran tells us: "O mankind! We have created you male and a female; and we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another."The Talmud tells us: "The whole of the Torah is for the purpose of promoting peace."
The Holy Bible tells us: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God."
The people of the world can live together in peace. We know that is God's vision. Now that must be our work here on Earth.
Okay, it's a speech. But it's a good start.
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Robert Dreyfuss
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The speech was so good that it leaves Obama with an immense amount of game-changing actions to effect & soon. Otherwise suspicion, doubt & anger will grow only greater in a disappointed Islamic world.
Posted by sloper at 06/04/2009 @ 10:22am
This was pure political spin in an art form.
Obama is demonstrating that he will do anything, say anything to be accepted.
He will even help with the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people if it will draw him acceptance among those who are in greater number (the Muslims).
All during his campaign, he ran from his Muslim roots. Now he boasts about them.
He is the ultimate hypocrite, liar, and may well be the most dangerous president in our history.
Christians and Jews should be concerned about what levels this man will sink to, in selling out to Islam.
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 10:31am
Obama's speech was not as bad as one might have feared....actually not too bad at all.
He seemed to steer away from his normal tendency towards apology and America-blame.
There is one point for sure he was wrong about and 2 things he does not understand:
- He said Iraq was a war of choice. It of course was not - it was a war of absolute necessity in order to stop Saddam (who would have been making WMD again had he not been stopped, who would have given or sold it to terrorists, and who would have rejoiced as the terrorists used the WMD to kill millions of us.
- Obama does not understand that Iran has no intention of stopping the development of a nuclear weapon, and that nothing the world has done so far has made a dent in their effort to do so. He also most likely does not understand that something different than what has been done before will have to be done to prevent Iran from creating a nuclear weapon. I believe that Bibi Netanyahu does understand what that something different will have to be. It is something different that will cause the political Left in this country to go into an absolute fit when it does happen.
- Obama does not appear to understand that most of the Arab and Palestinian world does not want peace with Israel, they want no Israel, and have no intention of backing off of that goal.
The Palestinian suffering that is happening now can be blamed on the Arab world, the Palestinian leadership, many of the member countries in the U.N., and others such as the political left in this country. These groups have either caused the suffering by their actions, or enabled those who cause the suffering to keep causing the suffering by not understanding who is to blame.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/04/2009 @ 10:45am
Sarcastic reminder to Mask,
Just in case you plan on commenting, you will note that the time stamp on my post above is 10:45 am, which would be Central Daylight Time......
.....which is well ahead of 11 am Central Daylight Time which is the same as noon Eastern Daylight Time.....
......which means that no events that take place at noon Eastern Daylight Time have happened yet.........
..... including events that occur electronically, such as radio broadcasts, for example.......
......if you get my drift, which you absolutely do but will not admit it, of course.......
Posted by sjchermak at 06/04/2009 @ 10:49am
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 10:31am
Oh, you're just mad he was quoting that "hippie-dippie peacenik" stuff from the Bible...and not the "Kill! Kill! Kill!" stuff.
LOL
Posted by Mask at 06/04/2009 @ 10:51am
Me think that Magic is setting the stage to run as the POTUS of the Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Muslims....
Hopey and Changey, World Edition!
Posted by Happy at 06/04/2009 @ 10:53am
Well, actually, SJCHER, I'm sure you and Rush had your criticisms of Obama's speeches prepared...last night. LOL
But I actually want to focus on this-
"Obama does not appear to understand that most of the Arab and Palestinian world does not want peace with Israel, they want no Israel, and have no intention of backing off of that goal."----Posted by sjchermak at 06/04/2009 @ 10:45am
So does that include Iraq?
(oh, yes...you smell the trap...but can you avoid it?????)
Posted by Mask at 06/04/2009 @ 10:53am
Rather.....POTNWW (President of the Non-White World)!
Posted by Happy at 06/04/2009 @ 10:55am
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 10:31am | ignore this person | warn this person
oh its not so awful. i share your reservations concerning islam, but...
"This was pure political spin in an art form."
its a political speech... whats it supposed to be?
"Obama is demonstrating that he will do anything, say anything to be accepted."
really? by giving a speech in which he did not hector his listeners? what should he have said? "yer all a bunch of violent followers of a satanic religion and should be like us!"???
when you go into someone's house...best to be polite, eh?
"He will even help with the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people if it will draw him acceptance among those who are in greater number (the Muslims)."
perhaps he's trying to do the opposite (save israel) by doing the same...
"All during his campaign, he ran from his Muslim roots. Now he boasts about them."
he has no muslim roots and you know the deal about the campaign. stop being hypocritical and pretending to believe such. you know how that smear thing works - do not participate in it.
"He is the ultimate hypocrite, liar, and may well be the most dangerous president in our history."
oh...he's the antichrist. got it...
"Christians and Jews should be concerned about what levels this man will sink to, in selling out to Islam."
more hyperbole please...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 06/04/2009 @ 10:58am
Posted by Happy at 06/04/2009 @ 10:55am
So logically, you'll be supporting the guy or gal who's running for POTWW ...President of the White World.
Huh.
Posted by Mask at 06/04/2009 @ 11:02am
Mask,
You get great amusement by patrolling the blogs and taking bloggers comments going from minutes ago back to whenever it was that the blogs started, and parsing words or over fixating on words, wth the goal of "trapping" people.
Hey, if it floats your boat, and makes you happy, then enjoy!
Of course I can avoid the trap.
Yesterday or recently I said that there would be peace in the middle east at the end of the century (answer 12 on Mistral's survey) and one of the reasons why would be by that time more Middle East Arab nations, like Iraq, would be democracies (thanks to the start of it by George W. Bush) that would not have hatred of the Jewish People.
That is 91 years from now. Right now we are talking about today..... and today most Arab entities do not want peace with Israel.... the people in those countries are not in charge of their own futures now......not even close.....
And I do not perceive that Obama will be the one to bring about any change in that circumstance....
It may not really be any U.S. President doing that over the next 91 years... it would be the people in the Middle East seeing for themselves that democracy is possible in their region in an Arab/Muslim/Islamic country..... where before it was assumed there and here that it was not possible.
So I have avoided the trap... try again.. your first try will be to say I haven't answered your question and I haven't avoided your trap... so try one beyond that since I already assume that will be your first response.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/04/2009 @ 11:04am
Oh, you're just mad he was quoting that "hippie-dippie peacenik" stuff from the Bible...and not the "Kill! Kill! Kill!" stuff.
LOL
Posted by Mask at 06/04/2009 @ 10:51am
No, I heard him reverse himself from his campaign where he denied any Muslim connection, but now boasts to Muslims about his Muslim roots, and hearing the call to prayer as a boy in a Muslim nation. I heard him lie about the clash of civilizations. I heard him (at least to the Muslim world) promise the destruction of Israel. I heard him lie about the Muslim contribution to America.
I heard him lie about the nature of Islam
<I have come here to seek a new beginning between the United States and Muslims around the world; one based upon mutual interest and mutual respect; and one based upon the truth that America and Islam are not exclusive, and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles - principles of justice and progress; tolerance and the dignity of all human beings.>
or lies like this one
< And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.>
Obama's use for the first time by any US president of the word "occupation" is not only a lie, but runs counter to US policy since 1948.
Obama now showing his Muslim leanings, then proceeds to share a Muslim lie that no Christian would ever utter;
<and a place for all of the children of Abraham to mingle peacefully together as in the story of Isra, when Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed (peace be upon them) joined in prayer.>
It's a story that never took place and one that denigrates Christianity and Judaism. If Obama gives credibility to that story, he is denying his Christian beliefs.
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 11:10am
Speeches don't change games - particularly mind games where people read history to their agenda. (LVL)
Posted by srjenkins at 06/04/2009 @ 11:51am
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 11:10am | ignore this person | warn this person
Still waving that sign on the street corner, are you?
Posted by syfriendly at 06/04/2009 @ 11:54am
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 11:10am
Your post just emphasizes your absolute ignorance about... well basically everything.
"No, I heard him reverse himself from his campaign where he denied any Muslim connection"
Did he? He stated he was not a Muslim. He never stated he had no muslim "connection" whatever that implies.
Please tell me how he promised the destruction of Israel in his speech? How crazy are you?
"It's a story that never took place and one that denigrates Christianity and Judaism. If Obama gives credibility to that story, he is denying his Christian beliefs."
Please explain yourself. How do you know it never took place? How does it denigrate Christianity or Judaism? I think you hatred and Fear dominate your soul. Good luck getting through the gates of Heaven with a heart full of hatred.
What lies did he tell about the nature of Islam? That they are peaceful by nature? They are, probably more peaceful than Christians.
Anti, you have been so corrupted by the darkside, by fear, and hatred, that you refuse to accept someone who is not of like mind, who actually stands in front of world and focuses on peace and acceptance. I feel sorry for you.
Posted by Extraneous at 06/04/2009 @ 11:58am
To say "repairing America's rift with the Muslim world" is precisely backwards. We should be speaking about the Muslim world's rift with the rest of the world. After all, Islam declared war against the rest of the world 1400 years ago. That basic doctrine, as set forth in the Koran and sayings of Muhammad, have not changed. Here are some passages from Islam's holy texts: FROM THE KORAN: --The unbelievers are your inveterate enemy. (4:101) -- Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. (48:29). -- Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme. (8:40) -- Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. (2:193) -- We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. (3:151) -- I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers. (8:12) FROM THE SAYINGS OF MUHAMMAD: -- Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' " -- Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, ..." -- Muhammad said: "Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, … "
Posted by Montedoro at 06/04/2009 @ 12:10pm
Posted by sjchermak at 06/04/2009 @ 11:04am
91 years?!?!???!?.....so after 98.999% of the world has DIED off...
Bush will be proven right?
But UNTIL then, you are BOTH correct that "Most Arabs want to see Israel destroyed...including Iraqis" AND that Bush was (sorry, will be) proven right when he said the Iraqis will be "democratic, peaceful, and an ally to us and nice to Israel."
Yes...you avoid the trap, all right!...LOL
Posted by Mask at 06/04/2009 @ 12:14pm
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 11:10am
Okay, so from "He's a GODLESS Commie"...we're back to "He's a secret MUSLIM!"
Gotcha.
Posted by Mask at 06/04/2009 @ 12:16pm
I can almost hear Jane Harman's teeth-gnashing from here, 1,200 miles away. Atta boy, Mr. President.
Posted by DejaVu at 06/04/2009 @ 12:19pm
It's just amazing how many rightist freaks are coming out of the woodwork as diplomatic outreach to the Muslim world actually begins to take place. It'll steadily worsen, the tirade of demented rants, as these people continue to see their worldview crashing down around their ears.
Posted by syfriendly at 06/04/2009 @ 12:25pm
It's really quite ironic that The Nation's chat rooms read like ultra-right looney-tunes therapy group sessions. Maybe it's akin to a "trail-of-tears" routing of the right that has led them to this lonely, desolate reservation.
Posted by DejaVu at 06/04/2009 @ 12:25pm
This column is another example of Dreyfuss being a partisan propogandist hack. He makes it seem like Obama shares his view that the Palestinians are innocent victims, thus implying that Israel alone is to blame for the current situation. But in fact Obama also said in his speech that "the Palestinians must abandon violence." Obama condemned "the shooting up [of] old women on a bus. He called on the Palestinians "to focus on what they can build. The PA must develop its capacity to provide for the needs of its people."
Obama is a wise leader because he knows the facts and speaks the truth. He has told the arab world that the alleged right to return is a non-starter for peace and called for it to be dropped from the Saudi plan. It takes two to make peace; both the Israelis and the PA are obstacles to peace at the moment.
Posted by gren at 06/04/2009 @ 12:27pm
It takes two to make peace; both the Israelis and the PA are obstacles to peace at the moment.----Posted by gren at 06/04/2009 @ 12:27pm
gren, you're going to lose friends on the Right....daring to blame Israel for even PART of the problem!
heheh
Posted by Mask at 06/04/2009 @ 12:29pm
While I have not heard the complete speech, some out takes sounded rather positive. I was pleased that he offered talks with Iran without preconditions and will generally work with people to solve problems. Whatever ones opinion of Hezbollah or Hamas, they are a facts on the ground and a dialogue with them would be helpful. Talks can be useful, if not to resolve conflicts, at least to mitigate them. Self determination is, of course, an individual and collective right, but it is an an internal process, and it cannot be imposed by outside forces who do not understand the internal dynamics of the situation.
Posted by pjcasey at 06/04/2009 @ 12:30pm
Montedoro, Anyone can pick and choose quotes out context and out of history and use those quotes to attempt to prove a point. You probably wont' read this but it provides a bit of context on the Koran and words of Muhammad.
"Muhammad himself survived several assassination attempts, and the early Muslim community narrowly escaped extermination by the powerful city of Mecca. The Prophet had to fight a deadly war in order to survive, but as soon as he felt his people were probably safe, he devoted his attention to building up a peaceful coalition of tribes and achieved victory by an ingenious and inspiring campaign of nonviolence. When he died in 632, he had almost single-handedly brought peace to war-torn Arabia.
Because the Koran was revealed in the context of an all-out war, several passages deal with the conduct of armed struggle. Warfare was a desperate business on the Arabian Peninsula. A chieftain was not expected to spare survivors after a battle, and some of the Koranic injunctions seem to share this spirit. Muslims are ordered by God to "slay [enemies] wherever you find them!" (4: 89). Extremists such as Osama bin Laden like to quote such verses but do so selectively. They do not include the exhortations to peace, which in almost every case follow these more ferocious passages: "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them" (4: 90)."
Posted by Extraneous at 06/04/2009 @ 12:32pm
"He is the ultimate hypocrite, liar, and may well be the most dangerous president in our history"
and bush was honest and kept us safe (except for that one little stumble in september of 2001, and two disastrous occupations of foreign countries).
Posted by darladoon at 06/04/2009 @ 12:47pm
hey mask
I'm not on the right. This is part of the problem. If one says anything in support of Israel, one gets classified as being on the right. It is the mirror image of someone being accused of anti-semitism just because he criticises Israel for a particular policy or action.
Posted by gren at 06/04/2009 @ 12:58pm
I appreciated Dreyfuss's article, then scrolled down and was dismayed by the utter nonsense that too often passes for reader commentary in The Nation's online forums.
Unfortunately, this happens more often than not.
You would think that a publication of The Nation's caliber would be able to sustain a discursive community of higher quality than this. We all lose when a handful of diligent if abysmally foolish people are able to establish the tone and terms of conversation, if only because they seem to have so little else to do with their time.
So what can be done? Please consider requiring people to identify themselves by name, so that they face at least some accountability for what they write. If numskulls such as "antisocialist" were forced to do so, perhaps they would think twice before despoiling these spaces for others. Or maybe not. But it would be worth a try, no?
Posted by jra9151 at 06/04/2009 @ 1:08pm
Excellent speech. For those inhuman abstractions who cherish violence and terrorism and rejoice on the ruins of their own temples, this still may not satify. Whatever he say may never be enough. But for those who love peace--and for most reasonable people, men and women of goodwill--Obama has taken an important step toward a new world order. Bless his soul!
Posted by drsam8 at 06/04/2009 @ 1:13pm
" Please consider requiring people to identify themselves by name, so that they face at least some accountability for what they write."
so your last name is "9151"? are you a robot?
on the other hand, i actually agree with you.
Posted by darladoon at 06/04/2009 @ 1:21pm
My name was given as jra9151 because that is the way my account was set up and honestly I didn't give it a whole lot of thought when signing up. But, for whatever it is worth, my name is John Abbott. However you slice it, these discussion spaces are a mess and I wish the good people at The Nation would address the problem.
Posted by jra9151 at 06/04/2009 @ 1:30pm
This was more than good because it appears to recognize the failure of a policy that has existed as long as I can remember and has contributed to greater and greater instability, dislocation and harm to the people of that region and us.
Whether action will follow time will tell, but words due mean something. recognizing Hamas has earned its authority as an agent of resistance and unconditional statement of Palestinian national self determination which appears implicit feels right. And the same could be said for Hezbollah. At least if there is an expectation of reaching any fundamental accord with Syria, Iran and Lebanon.
Charlie M.
Posted by cmsandia at 06/04/2009 @ 1:36pm
Posted by jra9151 at 06/04/2009 @ 1:08pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Agreed completely - seymour
Posted by syfriendly at 06/04/2009 @ 1:38pm
Obama says;
The Talmud tells us: "The whole of the Torah is for the purpose of promoting peace."
Torah ,aka, the five books of moses, aka, the old testament--"Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
If these 5 books, and the old Testament are about promoting peace, I'll eat my hat. How about war, pillage, vengeance, etc.
All of the religions that Obama cited today are of the "kill for peace" variety
Posted by hkaplan at 06/04/2009 @ 1:39pm
Still waving that sign on the street corner, are you?
Posted by syfriendly at 06/04/2009 @ 11:54am
Nope. I've never done that.
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 1:46pm
Posted by gren at 06/04/2009 @ 12:58pm
Perhaps I am mistaken on your take on OTHER issues, gren.
Posted by Mask at 06/04/2009 @ 1:54pm
Posted by jra9151 at 06/04/2009 @ 1:08pm
So, I agree with you, but this is one of those unsolvable problems on the internet. No matter what kind of attempt you make to assert an identity, it is quite easy to defraud.
And to follow, the people who are setting this tone are more likely than not doing it on purpose, with some higher agenda of distracting the readers of the Nation, taking their message off point, and diffusing the effect of their publication.
This happens on every leftist publication forum, and perhaps on every rightist forum.
Instead of strengthening their bases, there are nuts everywhere who are (perhaps rightfully) excluded from their supposed communities and come to espouse their misled opinions elsewhere. There is also the possibility that these opinions are here merely to discourage understanding of the delicate difference between the left and right.
Regardless, there is little the Nation can do besides close their doors entirely, and this, I can imagine we agree, would be worse than having people with extreme views on their doorstep.
Ryan
Posted by ryandunn at 06/04/2009 @ 1:55pm
But, for whatever it is worth, my name is John Abbott. However you slice it, these discussion spaces are a mess and I wish the good people at The Nation would address the problem.---Posted by jra9151 at 06/04/2009 @ 1:30pm
Well first...
HEY, ABBOTT!!!!!!!!
(sorry, couldn't resist)
Second, HOW ...EXACTLY would you like to see "TN" "address" this "problem"???
Posted by Mask at 06/04/2009 @ 1:56pm
Please tell me how he promised the destruction of Israel in his speech? How crazy are you?
"It's a story that never took place and one that denigrates Christianity and Judaism. If Obama gives credibility to that story, he is denying his Christian beliefs."
Please explain yourself. How do you know it never took place? How does it denigrate Christianity or Judaism? I think you hatred and Fear dominate your soul. Good luck getting through the gates of Heaven with a heart full of hatred.
What lies did he tell about the nature of Islam? That they are peaceful by nature? They are, probably more peaceful than Christians.
Anti, you have been so corrupted by the darkside, by fear, and hatred, that you refuse to accept someone who is not of like mind, who actually stands in front of world and focuses on peace and acceptance. I feel sorry for you.
Posted by Extraneous at 06/04/2009 @ 11:58am
Moses never had any meeting with Mohammed who was born about 700 years after Moses died.
The only meeting that Mohammed had with Jesus was on the day he died when he went before the Judgment Seat of Jesus and then on to the compartment of Torments in Sheol.
The Qu'ran and Muslim history speaks to Obama's lie about Islam being a religion of peace.
As to Christianity, you are welcome to the challenge I've made to others: cite one verse in the NT where Christianity is called to war against others to bring them to Christianity. Just because nations have used the name of Christianity in their power grabs against others, doesn't mean it was about Christianity. The Qu'ran however is specific throughout it's text about endless war against anyone who will not submit to Islam and to destroy all Jews.
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 1:58pm
So what can be done? Please consider requiring people to identify themselves by name, so that they face at least some accountability for what they write. If numskulls such as "antisocialist" were forced to do so, perhaps they would think twice before despoiling these spaces for others. Or maybe not. But it would be worth a try, no?
Posted by jra9151 at 06/04/2009 @ 1:08pm
Welcome to the board. I am actually known by most of the regular bloggers here by my real name as I have been one of the few to actually reveal my real name.
It is Rev. Larry Robinson
and I provide an email address for further dialogue (although few take up the challenge)
tabernaclehope@hotmail.com
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 2:01pm
Moses never had any meeting with Mohammed who was born about 700 years after Moses died.
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 1:58pm
You obviously have not read the story then. I only know the cliff notes..
For your enlightenment. "The Isra begins with Muhammad (570–632) resting in the Kaaba in Mecca, when the archangel Gabriel comes to him, and brings him the winged steed Buraq, the traditional lightning steed of the prophets. The Buraq then carries Muhammad to the "farthest mosque". The location of this mosque is not explicitly stated in the Qur'an, but is traditionally considered to be the Noble Sanctuary (Temple Mount) in Jerusalem. [4] Muhammad alights, tethers Buraq, and leads other prophets in prayer. He then re-mounts the Buraq, and in the second part of the journey, the Mi'raj, is taken to the heavens, where he tours the circles of heaven, and speaks with the earlier prophets such as Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, and then is taken by Gabriel to Allah." Etc.
Sure the story is fantastical and I am dubious from the start. However, it is no more fantastic than stories in other books more widely subscribed to in the west.
Posted by Extraneous at 06/04/2009 @ 2:26pm
"Obama Hits A Home Run"
well, the words may be a home run but i bet the actions will be more like a bunt.
Posted by frosty zoom at 06/04/2009 @ 2:31pm
This was Obama's Pacem In Terris, and with this speech he has placed himself and the USA in a high and moral place in the future resolution of the terrorism problem. He has made the world believe.
Posted by Sidney Lanier at 06/04/2009 @ 2:50pm
"cite one verse in the NT where Christianity is called to war against others to bring them to Christianity."-----Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 1:58pm
But REMEMBER, you HAVE to use the NEW Testament ONLY....because that's the only part of the "Word of God" that counts...
except when we need to use the Old Testament, then both count...
but on "wars" and "aggression"...ONLY the New Testament....because that's the only section that means anything...
except when the OT is needed.
Posted by Mask at 06/04/2009 @ 3:06pm
Posted by jra9151 at 06/04/2009 @ 1:08pm | ignore this person | warn this person
better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.
you are but the latest of a crowd of people bemoaning the low standards here, without actually posting anything of interest and value.
you want meaningful posts? you can start here.
or just leave us alone.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/04/2009 @ 3:17pm
Posted by jra9151 at 06/04/2009 @ 1:08pm | ignore this person | warn this person
better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.
you are but the latest of a crowd of people bemoaning the low standards here, without actually posting anything of interest and value.
you want meaningful posts? you can start here.
or just leave us alone.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/04/2009 @ 3:18pm
Sure the story is fantastical and I am dubious from the start. However, it is no more fantastic than stories in other books more widely subscribed to in the west. Posted by Extraneous at 06/04/2009 @ 2:26pm | ignore this person | warn this person
you want fantastical, check the Mormon story. hahahahahaha.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/04/2009 @ 3:19pm
There is likely to be little change in US policy; Here's a few reasons because of what he did NOT say: (1) Obama speaks of traume to US on 9/11 --- but not one word of thousands of orphans and widows left in Iraq, or of civilians killed in the "necessary" Afghan war; (2)He says Palestinians have suffered "in pursuit of a homeland", and of their "dislocation"--- but they already had a homeland and suffered from being ethnically cleansed and dispossessed; (3) He says building of settlements "has to stop"--- What about those that have already been built on land that belongs to the Palestinians? These 3 facts alone indicate a continuation of the one-sidedness of the US which was the primary motivation of the 9/11 hijackers (who were Saudi not Palestinian).
Posted by mystic at 06/04/2009 @ 3:22pm
Posted by Montedoro at 06/04/2009 @ 12:10pm | ignore this person | warn this person
whattacluelessfoolyouare. what countries has "Islam" invaded and turned into a slaughterhouse? why the good ole USA, of course.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/04/2009 @ 3:24pm
who has done so? why the good ole USA, of course.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/04/2009 @ 3:24pm
>>>Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 10:31am<<<
Larry,
You MISSED the most important part of the speech:
"It's easier to start wars than to end them. It's easier to blame others than to look inward. It's easier to see what is different about someone than to find the things we share. But we should choose the right path, not just the easy path. There's one rule that lies at the heart of every religion -- that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. (Applause.) This truth transcends nations and peoples -- a belief that isn't new; that isn't black or white or brown; that isn't Christian or Muslim or Jew. It's a belief that pulsed in the cradle of civilization, and that still beats in the hearts of billions around the world. It's a faith in other people, and it's what brought me here today.
We have the power to make the world we seek, but only if we have the courage to make a new beginning, keeping in mind what has been written.
The Holy Koran tells us: "O mankind! We have created you male and a female; and we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another."
The Talmud tells us: "The whole of the Torah is for the purpose of promoting peace."
The Holy Bible tells us: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." (Applause.)
The people of the world can live together in peace. We know that is God's vision. Now that must be our work here on Earth."
Posted by Metteyya at 06/04/2009 @ 3:30pm
you want fantastical, check the Mormon story. hahahahahaha.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/04/2009 @ 3:19pm
Exactly, but really no more fantastic than the bible (Creation of the world in a week, world wide floods, plagues, visits by angels, parting oceans, Moses living multiple lifetimes, walking on water, turing water into wine, rising from the dead, etc).
One of my favorite books: "No man knows my history" by Fawn Brodie. A biography of Joseph Smith.
It is interesting how accepted a fantasy can become, if given enough time. I see no valid reason to accept one religion over another when they are all equally fantastic. Yet people are willing to kill over it. The power of blind faith never ceases to astound me.
Posted by Extraneous at 06/04/2009 @ 3:47pm
BTW, does THIS sound like a person who believes in a "religion of peace"?
"3-5 nuclear weapons against China and a threat to Russia to keep in line or they would have been next would have given the world a much better opportunity for peace than we have seen as a result of not letting MacArthur achieve the victory that we should have."---Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/10/2007 @ 4:32pm
"Tell the military to take off their safety's, find some "Patton" style leaders; also, think Dresden; tell the president, his advisors, and the military staff to quit worrying about public opinion and just destroy every enemy-no prisoners."-----Posted by LVLIBERTY1 10/21/2007 @ 10:50am
Posted by Mask at 06/04/2009 @ 3:57pm
Yet people are willing to kill over it. The power of blind faith never ceases to astound me. Posted by Extraneous at 06/04/2009 @ 3:47pm | ignore this person | warn this person
very, very few people now are killed for their religious beliefs.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/04/2009 @ 4:07pm
Posted by Mask at 06/04/2009 @ 3:57pm
Yes Mask, we all know that you don't believe in self defense and that you would rather have more US soldiers killed by restricting their ability to take the upperhand.
We can add to that the way that you have come out of the closet and now view Islam as the good guys and the US as the evil ones.
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 4:38pm
All of the religions that Obama cited today are of the "kill for peace" variety Posted by hkaplan
Alas, all too true. Obama was jiving, very skillful jiving, heartwarming if you don't look beyond the surface, but jive nonetheless.
Re unwelcome posts: The Nation provides a highly effective corrective mechanism -- Ignore this person. Try it, you'll like it.
Posted by sloper at 06/04/2009 @ 4:47pm
Let's look closer at how young, educated Muslims viewed Obama's speech
<But other lines, such as when Obama vowed to protect the American people from violent attack, were met with stony silence.
"In Ankara, I made clear that America is not – and never will be – at war with Islam," Obama said. "We will, however, relentlessly confront violent extremists who pose a grave threat to our security. (Silence from the crowd.) Because we reject the same thing that people of all faiths reject: the killing of innocent men, women, and children. (More silence.) And it is my first duty as president to protect the American people." More silence.
And when the president talked about the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on America, he was met with only stares from the audience.
"I have unequivocally prohibited the use of torture by the United States, and I have ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed by early next year," Obama said to applause and whistles of approval.
But he was met with silence when he said: "The sooner the extremists are isolated and unwelcome in Muslim communities, the sooner we will all be safer."
Similarly, when Obama talked about "America's strong bonds with Israel" and said that bond "is unbreakable" there was no applause.>
continued
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 5:02pm
Nor was there any applause when, in one of the strongest parts of his speech, Obama stood up to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, a Holocaust denier, by saying,: "Six million Jews were killed -- more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, it ignorant, and it is hateful."
There was no sign of agreement from the audience as Obama went on: "Threatening Israel with destruction -- or repeating vile stereotypes about Jews -- is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of Israelis this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the people of this region deserve." This was met by more silence.
Nor was there any applause when, in one of the strongest parts of his speech, Obama stood up to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, a Holocaust denier, by saying,: "Six million Jews were killed -- more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, it ignorant, and it is hateful."
There was no sign of agreement from the audience as Obama went on: "Threatening Israel with destruction -- or repeating vile stereotypes about Jews -- is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of Israelis this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the people of this region deserve." This was met by more silence.
http://tinyurl.com/r8drkd
And yet the left and the anti-semites are cheering this as somehow a great speech that unites the world.
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 5:05pm
Posted by sloper at 06/04/2009 @ 4:47pm | ignore this person | warn this person
ebonics don't suit you.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/04/2009 @ 5:15pm
>>>Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 5:05pm<<<
Let's try giving you the KEY part of the speech again, Larry - hopefully this may help you with this "good guys/bad guys duality that you keep clinging to:
It's easier to start wars than to end them. It's easier to blame others than to look inward. It's easier to see what is different about someone than to find the things we share. But we should choose the right path, not just the easy path. There's one rule that lies at the heart of every religion -- that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. (Applause.) This truth transcends nations and peoples -- a belief that isn't new; that isn't black or white or brown; that isn't Christian or Muslim or Jew. It's a belief that pulsed in the cradle of civilization, and that still beats in the hearts of billions around the world. It's a faith in other people, and it's what brought me here today.
We have the power to make the world we seek, but only if we have the courage to make a new beginning, keeping in mind what has been written.
The Holy Koran tells us: "O mankind! We have created you male and a female; and we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another."
The Talmud tells us: "The whole of the Torah is for the purpose of promoting peace."
The Holy Bible tells us: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." (Applause.)
The people of the world can live together in peace. We know that is God's vision. Now that must be our work here on Earth."
Posted by Metteyya at 06/04/2009 @ 5:26pm
He Hit A Home Run in a T-ball field....in the sandlot of the Nile!
Posted by Happy at 06/04/2009 @ 5:57pm
1.The people of the world can live together in peace. We know that is God's vision. Now that must be our work here on Earth."
Posted by Metteyya at 06/04/2009 @ 5:26pm
Should I believe your view or that of Jesus? I think I will trust Jesus over your opinion.
Matthew 24:3, 6-8,12
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold"
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 6:07pm
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009
I'm sorry, but you're just wrong (and I truly dislike saying that in a political sense). On all points.
Obama's speech was not selling out to Muslims; it's not selling Israel or America down the river....
Look, we need to find the similarities of our faiths and creeds, and look to those for guidance, instead of looking to our differences to determine policy. Extremists of any type, whether they be Christian, Jewish or Muslim, must be shunned, for it is they who are causing all the problems. I can understand, anti, why you are so vehemently against him; he represents reason, which is always the enemy of religion (i.e. the apple). He is asking people to use their minds, not their hearts, to come up with a peace plan. If we don't we die.
Israel is not pursuing policies of peace when they continually expand settlements, in spite of agreements they have signed onto to limit settlements. The Palestinians, including Hamas, must recognize Israel's right to exist, if only as a measure of good faith to move the peace process forward.
The MOST telling thing he said was that Israel understands that the Palestinians aren't going anywhere, and the Arabs and Palestinians understand that Israel isn't going anywhere. If they can say that in the backrooms with the President of the United States, then he outed them all into the public sphere with that simple statement.
I applaud his speech, not because it was particularly brilliant, but because it stated, in simple terms that even the basest politician can understand, that America stands for peace not war...and that is something the Islamic world needed to hear after 8 years (and more to come) of constant war.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 06/04/2009 @ 6:22pm
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 6:07pm
You REALLY have bought into this warmongering version of Christianity - you want more war, more conflict between nations to hasten the second coming of Jesus.
What about the passage in the Christian Bible that says ""Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God" did you NOT understand?
Why did you fail to comprehend the GREATEST commandment taught by Jesus to treat your neighbor in the manner you would like to be treated?
This Sarah Palin version of Christianity that you seem to identify with that is rooted in the crazy book of Revelations (not a narrative from Jesus) turns Jesus upside down, and I think you and I both know who that serves.
Even if you believe the words in your last post from Jesus and refuse to view them in context of the GREATEST commandment, haven't there been enough wars, famine, and earthquakes in the world ALREADY so that it is now time for peace?
Think about it.
Posted by Metteyya at 06/04/2009 @ 6:24pm
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 "Just because nations have used the name of Christianity in their power grabs against others, doesn't mean it was about Christianity"
seems like you forgot a little something called the CRUSADES, reverend.
Posted by sirhcus at 06/04/2009 @ 6:27pm
there is little doubt the rev. antisocialist is a rapturist. it is the duty of the rapturist and fundamentalist christian to ensure that "nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows" or else their unyielding faith will prove to be a fallacy. the same can be said for the fundamentalist muslim. we of sound mind are caught in the middle of this religious struggle. that is truly frightening.
Posted by sirhcus at 06/04/2009 @ 6:33pm
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 "Just because nations have used the name of Christianity in their power grabs against others, doesn't mean it was about Christianity"
seems like you forgot a little something called the CRUSADES, reverend.
Posted by sirhcus at 06/04/2009 @ 6:27pm
No, it seems you have either been taught a revisionist history or never taught at all.
Islam began by invading Persia, India, and North Africa, before invading Europe at the beginning of the 7th Century. They held Southern Spain until 1492.
They advanced on France reaching near Paris before Charles Martel defeated them at the Battle of Tours in 732.
or the invasion of Rome in 846 AD.
Or perhaps you never studied the Battle of Vienna in 1683 When Austria was nearly lost before the heroic efforts of Polands Jan Sobrieski saved Vienna.
The Crusades were a defensive response, not an offensive one.
http://www.historyofjihad.org/persia.html
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 6:53pm
Sirhcus,
A more extensive list on all of the regions of the world that Islam invaded.
http://www.historyofjihad.com/sitemap.html
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 6:54pm
there is little doubt the rev. antisocialist is a rapturist. it is the duty of the rapturist and fundamentalist christian to ensure that "nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows" or else their unyielding faith will prove to be a fallacy. the same can be said for the fundamentalist muslim. we of sound mind are caught in the middle of this religious struggle. that is truly frightening.
Posted by sirhcus at 06/04/2009 @ 6:33pm
While it is true that I believe the promise of the Rapture for believers, what you completely misstate is that NONE of the events that Jesus spoke of must happen for the Rapture to occur. The Rapture of believers is independent of those events.
You are stating the distortions mostly promulgated by nonbelievers and the minority of believers who believe the Rapture to occur after the 7 year tribulation. Most Protestant believers hold to the same view as the Apostles and the early church; that the Rapture is always deemed to be imminent, yet unknowable as to the day and the hour; it is the hope of the believer to be spared from the time of Jacob's Trouble, otherwise known as the Great Tribulation.
The other misconception is that believers can affect the time of the Rapture. That is completely untrue.
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 7:00pm
Oh, and BTW, my name is... um.... Stephen Carver.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 06/04/2009 @ 7:06pm
Stephen_Carver1,
You say ".....and the Arabs and Palestinians understand that Israel isn't going anywhere......."
No.
Some may "understand" this.
I believe most do not "understand" this.
I believe not only do most Arabs/Palestinians NOT "understand" this, but that they ARE of the belief that they can someday make it go somewhere.
That somewhere is out of existence.
Despite whatever they say publically, most indications are that privately they believe otherwise.
I do not believe they have really come to terms with an acceptance of the existence of Israel, and they do not intend to do so.
91 years from now, as I pointed out on a recent thread, I think enough will have done this, but now that is not the case.
The worst example of this (the public/private disconnect between their wishes) was demonstrated by the murderer Arafat.... when at one point he admitted in English that Israel had a right to exist......
......and yet in Arabic the message went out in other ways to keep on with jihad and intifada.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/04/2009 @ 7:07pm
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2008
you are very adept at the spin, like an orb spider.
let me remind you what you said: "Just because nations have used the name of Christianity in their power grabs against others, doesn't mean it was about Christianity"
and your going to convince me that the Crusades was not about Christianity, regardless of whether it was defensive response to Muslim invaders. the crusaders intent was take back the Holy Land. how is that not about Christianity?
Posted by sirhcus at 06/04/2009 @ 7:19pm
Wow, Obama is so smart! And, he's cool. He is distancing the U.S. from Israel to minimize the reaction to the inevitable strike against Iran by the Jewish state. He knows its coming, and he's probably actually happy about it. The middleast duped again like we were! Ha-HA!
Posted by mike63 at 06/04/2009 @ 7:25pm
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009
you nevertheless believe in a silly story and that's what this is truly all about. it behooves the rapture right for nation to rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, otherwise they (and you) would be working side by side your brothers and sisters to find peace among all nations, among all religions. your posts suggest a harbinger of hatred and vengefulness and intolerance. not very Christlike.
Posted by sirhcus at 06/04/2009 @ 7:28pm
My name was given as jra9151 because that is the way my account was set up and honestly I didn't give it a whole lot of thought when signing up. But, for whatever it is worth, my name is John Abbott. However you slice it, these discussion spaces are a mess and I wish the good people at The Nation would address the problem.
Posted by jra9151 at 06/04/2009 @ 1:30pm
How do we know that is not an alias.? My name is Jones which being such a popular moniker effectively makes me anonymous. If you were to say my old man was Bud and used to crack jokes with Lou we still wouldn't be any the wiser. Incidentally Jones's never spell Lou like that. Not the Boadicean ones anyway.
How about giving us your present address? The number of your police file also would help to prove you are fairdinkum.
Posted by lrjones4 at 06/04/2009 @ 7:30pm
you nevertheless believe in a silly story and that's what this is truly all about. it behooves the rapture right for nation to rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, otherwise they (and you) would be working side by side your brothers and sisters to find peace among all nations, among all religions. your posts suggest a harbinger of hatred and vengefulness and intolerance. not very Christlike.
Posted by sirhcus at 06/04/2009 @ 7:28pm
Since you consider it all to be a silly story, how would you know what is Christlike?
Posted by antisocialist at 06/04/2009 @ 7:46pm
Posted by mike63 at 06/04/2009 @ 7:25pm
If Israel strike Iran for pursuing peaceful nuclear power allowed under the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty that Israel refuses to sign, he will PERMANENTLY damage US-Israeli relations and be driven from the political scene, just like in 1997.
Fools never learn.
Posted by Metteyya at 06/04/2009 @ 7:47pm
I appreciate Ryan's thoughtful response to my original proposal, and stand corrected in respect to Rev. Larry Robinson. I also acknowledge that it is easy enough for people to establish fraudulent identities in entering these forums, and that there is no one approach that in itself will elevate the level of discussion in these spaces.
But, to use a simple analogy, I routinely lock the doors of my car, not because this promises me absolute immunity from theft, but because it offers some measure of deterrence. When it comes to these forums, the convention that has emerged in many spaces is that anonymity-via-alias serves as the default option. And it seems to me that, just as some might construe my leaving my car doors unlocked as an "invitation" to theft, so too many people take this anonymity as license to spout whatever nonsense they wish. And why not, as the usual rules of personal accountability that guide most public discourse seem here to have been suspended.
You will notice that Amazon in recent years changed its rules of engagement, in effect requiring its online participants to put their names behind their opinions. The results, I think most would agree, have been overwhelmingly positive. Why not, as one measure out of many, try implementing such a policy at The Nation as well?
Posted by jra9151 at 06/04/2009 @ 9:23pm
Posted by jra9151 at 06/04/2009 @ 9:23pm | ignore this person | warn this person
why don't you leave us alone here. participate or not, as you wish, but stop bitching.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/04/2009 @ 9:40pm
Wonder if Obama got GW to write the religious parts of his Cairo Speech. Looks like Bush's Muslim friends have stuck by the good old US and with its new president.
President's Greeting for Ramadan - November 5, 2002
I send greetings to Muslims in the United States and around the world as you observe the holy month of Ramadan.
Islam is a peace-loving faith that is practiced by more than one billion people, including millions of American Muslims. These proud citizens contribute to the diversity that makes our country strong, and the United States is grateful for the friendship and support of many Muslim Nations that are vital partners in the global coalition to fight against terrorism.
The Qur'an teaches that Ramadan is a time for fasting, prayer, worship, and contemplation. Muslims observe this month by renewing their dedication to caring for those in need, doing good deeds, and strengthening family and community ties. These actions reflect many of the values that Muslims share with people of other faiths across our Nation and around the world, including courage, compassion, and service.
America remains committed to freedom, justice, and opportunity for all people. During this season of reverence and examination, we continue to work together for a future of peace, tolerance, and understanding.
Laura joins me in sending our best wishes for a blessed time. May you be well during Ramadan and throughout the coming year.
GEORGE W. BUSH
November 15, 2001
"The Islam that we know is a faith devoted to the worship of one God, as revealed through The Holy Qur'an. It teaches the value and the importance of charity, mercy, and peace."
September 28, 2001
[I know] that the Muslim faith is based upon peace and love and compassion.
All GW's own work. And much more.
Posted by lrjones4 at 06/04/2009 @ 9:42pm
America has great speech writers and a great orator to deliver them.
What more could we ask for?
It's like American Idol with a motorcade!
Posted by bleedingheart at 06/04/2009 @ 9:57pm
Posted by bleedingheart at 06/04/2009 @ 9:57pm | ignore this person | warn this person
All you have to do is totally ignore the truth of the reality of our nations now precarious continued existence (made entirely possible by Obamanation and the Demoncrats)and open the doors wide to all our enemies to make our destruction complete! Now this Obamanation that makes desolation is just completing it!
Posted by BigPasture at 06/05/2009 @ 12:36am
You cannot blame the Palestinians for the state they are in, that one goes to the British and all the other colonial powers that divided this land after ww1.
more importantly, Mr Obama has shown that he is not only the president of the USA but of the whole world. Finally a visionary leader like Ghandi and Mandela.
I'm afraid that a few will inevitably try to destroy what he is trying to do, from all sides of the argument.
I look forward to watching the whole speech on he web some time.
Finally an American president with his own balls.
Posted by victor rivera at 06/05/2009 @ 12:40am
If you know anything about people from the middle east is that they have centuries of experience dealing with negotiation, and the destruction of Israel is one of their trading chips. They will eventually come to the table to negitiate and negitiate and negitiate. Then the onus will be on the other side.
In the end everyone wants peace except for the gun, tank, bomb, mine, balistic rocket, granade, bullet, machine gun, fighter plane helicopter gunship, warshp,destroyer, and laser gun making countries like x, y and zee.
Posted by victor rivera at 06/05/2009 @ 12:53am
The panic in the posts of antisocialist and sjchermak, is so palpable, you can almost smell it.
Netanyahu thought he had Obama's measure and left Washington with his head spinning.
Mitchell is performing like a star. The Israelis are claiming that there was an agreement between Bush and Sharon to allow the settlements to expand.
Netanyahu's envoy advanced the argument of the informal letter between former president George W. Bush and Israel's former prime minister Ariel Sharon, stating that the "settlement blocs" would remain in Israeli hands even in a peace agreement, and thus construction of new homes could continue there.
Mitchell retorted by showing Meridor that another of the letter's sections enshrines the principle of "two states for two peoples." "That's also written in the letter -- do you agree to that?" Mitchell asked pointedly.
Absolutely priceless.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 01:05am
Sjchermak,
"I do not believe they have really come to terms with an acceptance of the existence of Israel, and they do not intend to do so. "
Similarly, Israel has never come to terms with the idea that Arabs are not sub human.
"The worst example of this (the public/private disconnect between their wishes) was demonstrated by the murderer Arafat.... when at one point he admitted in English that Israel had a right to exist...... "
A blatant lie. Arafat recognized Israel's right to exist at Olso. And then Israel killed him for his trouble.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 01:16am
Antisocialist,
"And yet the left and the anti-semites are cheering this as somehow a great speech that unites the world."
Because it has united the world. The speech has received overwhelmingly approval and support from the world at large. The only detractors are the right wing flat earth socieity and Zionist extremists.
After all, the last US president who gave a speech in the Middle East, had a shoe thrown at him, so we've come a long way.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 01:36am
antisocialist
Like most self avoiwed Chritians, especially the dispensationalists and end of timers, you are a hypocrite.
You put out the challenge for others to cite one verse in the NT where Christianity is called to war against others to bring them to Christianity.
But the NT is just one part of the Bible is isn't it and isn't the entire Bible the founding document of Christianity?
Isn't it because it is all too inconvenient to explain away the fire and brimstone quotes from the OT and Revelation and the Book of Daniel?
"The Qu'ran however is specific throughout it's text about endless war against anyone who will not submit to Islam and to destroy all Jews."
So what you're saying is that the Muslims who protected the Jews from the Christians in Spain were violating the Qu'ran?
Are you saying that when Saladin conquered Jerusalem, he was violating the Qu'ran by not only allowing the Jews and Christian to remain, but to continue practicing their own faith?
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 01:46am
"The Crusades were a defensive response, not an offensive one."
Rubbish. The Crusades and the Spanish inquisition were about conquering land and forced conversion.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 01:48am
Sjchermak
You didn't miss a single wingnut / seriously spoonfed nutter point, did you?? A normal tendency towards apology ? America-blame? Good God, doesn't Oabam know that America is never in the wrong?
- There is no doubt that Iraq was a war of choice. Saddam didn't need to be stopped because Saddam was going nowhere. The Duelfer report told us that his WMD program ended in the earl 90's. The Senate report of 2007 told us that he had no links to terrorists, hence he would not have given or sold what he didn't have to terrorists. Hence, the terrorists would not have had any WMD to kill millions of us.
-Iran has no need to stop development of a nuclear weapons because it never started. The 2007 NIE stated that Iraq had no WMD program since 2003, and even then, that assumption was based on a stolen laptop that the CIA says is of dubious origin. The IAEA has concluded time and time again that there is no evidence of a nuclear weapons program in Iran. - Even the right wing Jerusalem Post quotes Israeli defense officials as saying that Iran might have enough material for a nuke by the end of the year IF they decide to enrich the LEU stocks to HEU. - Bibi Netanyahu is the biggest liar and con man who said 911 was a good thing. Anyone who believes a thing he says is mentally ill. -You do not appear to understand that 22 Arab States and Palestinian have offered to recognize Israel as per the 1967 borders and normalize relations with Israel. You don't understand that the fact that Israel has rejected the offer and described it as dangerous proves that Israel is more concerned with stealing land than peace.
Blaming the Palestinian leadership for being massacred by Israel is like blaming Jewish leaders in Germany for allowing the Holocaust to take place.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 02:11am
antisocialist
You are either a liar or you are suffering from paranoid delusions
You said:
"I heard him (at least to the Muslim world) promise the destruction of Israel."
Please quote the passage from his speech that promises the destruction of Israel. If you're unable to , then an admission that you are mentally ill will suffice.
You said:
< And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.>
That's not a lie, your just an ignorant bigot. Islam was eh first religion to allow mixed marriages. When the Msulism conquered Spain, they allowed other religions to remain and did not destroy any houses of worship.
"Obama's use for the first time by any US president of the word "occupation" is not only a lie, but runs counter to US policy since 1948."
a) The occupied territories got their name from being the theater of occupation so that was not a lie. b) It is the prerogative of the US President to set US policy, so who cares about policies that date back to 1948? Obama won the election. Your side lost. Get over it.
"Obama now showing his Muslim leanings."
Translation. Obama is not an Islamophobe and like you.
"It's a story that never took place and one that denigrates Christianity and Judaism."
Why does it denigrate Christianity and Judaism and not Islam? Oh I forgot, your an Islamphobe.
In any case, all of those characters are a myths, so who cares if it never took place?
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 02:33am
If Mitchell is doing as effective a job as presented here, good for him. Should he prove too effective, however, he could end up like Prince Bernadotte, who was also doing a fine fair job, when Zionist terrorists took him out.
Stuff happens.
The NYTimes reports this a.m. that ME reactions to The Speech are mixed. What a surprise. Rather more interesting will be ME reactions to US actions that were promised in the speech, should these actions come to pass.
Posted by sloper at 06/05/2009 @ 02:53am
Yes, even though this was just a speech, I must admit that Obama has surprised at how bold he has been to face down Bibbi and the Israeli lobby.
Obama isn't even stopping to visit Israel on this trip, which is almost unheard of for a US president.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to the NYTimes on this matter. They tend to fall over themselves to kiss Israel's ring at every opportunity.
Consider the distorted analysis that David Sanger produced about Obama's meeting with Neteyahu in Washington. While the rest of the world reported that Obama laid down the law with Netenyahu, Sanger's version of events was that Netenyahu was able to have his way with Obama.
That turned out to be a lemon didn't it?
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 03:05am
One more thing antisocialist,
Obama also broke with US policy when he admitted US involvement in the 1953 coup which overthrew the government of Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh.
As we all know, this is an undisputed fact.
So tell us antisocialist, as a Christian, are you opposed to our president telling the truth and admitting our crimes, or does your version of Christianity tolerate lies and acts of violence?
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 03:14am
"Obama also broke with US policy when he admitted US involvement in the 1953 coup which overthrew the government of Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh."
Right, Shingo. Undisputed historical fact, and until quite recently bragged about as one of the CIA's greatest accomplishments.
Obama as much as apologized for toppling a democratically elected Iranian govt. Major change in US presidential behavior. This surely did not go unnoticed in Israel. But, big but, how will the Israeli govt & military establishment (not much difference between the 2) react? Their historical record is consistently one of removing obstacles to Israeli expansion.
Stuff happens.
Posted by sloper at 06/05/2009 @ 03:26am
Shingo,
You seem to have missed stuff like the Kay report after the Iraq war where Saddam's own people told us the intent was to re-start the WMD programs again once the heat was off; and the Pentagon report that showed Saddam was intent on becoming more and more of a troublemaker in the Middle East, and that included increasing ties by him to terror organizations.
Thus, Saddam would have been making WMD again, he would have sold or given it to terrorists and they would have used it to kill millions of us.
Normally, I would say it is what it is, but of course it is not what it is --- because George W. Bush and Tony Blair stopped it from becoming what it is!
With regard to Iran and nukes, I guess everyone in the world except you knows Iran is developing a nuclear weapon.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/05/2009 @ 03:31am
sjchermak,
I missed nothing about what was reportd after the war. David Kay was one of the main proponents of the WMD lies and admitted he was wrong, wrong, wrong.
The Duelfer rport stated there was no evidence of Saddam restarting his WMD programs. Nothing. That was just BS to placate Bush.
Saddam had no ties to terror organizations either as the SSCI September 2007 Report told us.
So no, Saddam would not have been making WMD again and as he didn;t trust terrorist s, he would NOT have sold or given anything to terrorists, so no, would not have what they didn't hace to kill millions of us.
George W. Bush and Tony Blair stopped nothing, Tehy are liars and war criminals.
With regard to Iran and nukes, there is no evidence whatsoevr of a nuclear weapons program.
Either produce a link to evidence of a nuclear wepoans progam in Iran or you are a liar. No one in the world knows Iran is developing a nuclear weapon, becasue no one in the world has any evidence that Iran is developing a nuclear weapon.
BTW. I have a background in nuclear energy so I know a lot more about this subject than you ever will.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 03:44am
There's a commercial in the U.S. that says "friends don't allow other friends to drive drunk" which means a true friend saves you from harming yourself. Barack Obama is a true friend of Israel because if Israel continues on its present course of taking more and more land there will only be two solutions left to the conflict: either keep the Palestinians in a giant prison without any rights or else have a bi-national State. Neither of these two options are acceptable, and the best choice is a two State solution.
The settlers take badly needed money away from the elderly, the poor, the hungry and the disabled and it's long past the time that those funds were spent inside Israel to help those who truly need it.
There is a fantasy among the right wing in Israel that either the Palestinians will disappear or else go to Jordan. They don't understand the grievances of people who see someone from Chicago or New York move to a settlement on land taken from them who now call it theirs. The settlers have made a two State solution close to impossible.
I am a moderate Democrat and a fervent supporter of Israel and I believe that President Obama is a true friend of Israel and a true friend sometimes has to tell you things you may not want to hear but in the long run are in your best interests, and he said those things yesterday in his speech.
Posted by mjkoch at 06/05/2009 @ 05:51am
Obama has said what should have been done long ago.America is a multicultural,multi-religious country where all are welcomed. Something that the neo conservatives should remember. He quotations of the Quaran,the Talmud and the Bible are correct. The Bush approach of antagonism and the Big stick does not work. We need to find what binds us together in dialogue, not what divides us through hate and ignorance.
Posted by willyscanlon at 06/05/2009 @ 06:02am
jkoch,
I am in complete agreement. When rught wing fundamentalists suggest that Obama is trying to destroy Israel, it is akin to suggesting that denying a heroin addict access to more drugs is murder. Allowing Israel to progress down this path is allowing them to hasten their own destruction.
In the minds of the Isreli firsters, anything less that unconditinal indulgence of Israel's every wished is anti Semitic.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 06:04am
Obama has said what should have been done long ago.America is a multicultural,multi-religious country where all are welcomed. Something that the neo conservatives should remember. He quotations of the Quaran,the Talmud and the Bible are correct. The Bush approach of antagonism and the Big stick does not work. We need to find what binds us together in dialogue, not what divides us through hate and ignorance.
Posted by willyscanlon at 06/05/2009 @ 06:11am
Shingo,
You declare Tony Blair a war criminal.
I would love to see a debate between you and Tony Blair on the subject of Iraq. He is far more articulate than me, and he would wax your ass so bad in a debate you would not know which end is up.
You tout how you have a background in nuclear energy. So what? I mentioned on one of these threads recently that Jimmy Carter had training in nuclear power in the Navy, and he had no common sense whatsoever.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/05/2009 @ 07:19am
A blatant lie. Arafat recognized Israel's right to exist at Olso. And then Israel killed him for his trouble. Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 01:16am | ignore this person | warn this person
this is a lie.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 07:20am
Posted by victor rivera at 06/05/2009 @ 12:53am | ignore this person | warn this person
it's negotiate, negOtiate.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 07:24am
willyscanlon,
You say ".....America is a multicultural,multi-religious country where all are welcomed. Something that the neo conservatives should remember......"
Actually, the "neo conservatives" or even just regular Conservatives understand this, and have made it possible, and propose policy to continue it, to a far greater extent than any liberal ever has.
Conservatives do not concern themselves with people's skin color or gender, but with their qualities and capabilities.
Liberals constantly concern themselves with these issues in determining who should do what, these issues are deemed to be the qualifications (see Sotomayor, Sonia) rather than a person's qualifications.
And rather than promote equality and opportunity and leveraging the work people have done in the past to make equality and opportunity a reality, Liberals want these issues to be continually present as issues used to slam those who are not politically liberal, to promote those who are politically liberal, to promote liberal policy, and to keep people who have been denied opportunity in the past under the wing of liberal/goverement dependence so as to justify the continuation of liberalism and the creation of even more liberalism.
Posted by sjchermak at 06/05/2009 @ 07:26am
sjchermak,
Yes Tony Blair a war criminal and I would have a ball debating Tony Blair on the subject of Iraq. He is a liar and a fraud who took Britain to war with Iraq because like Bush, he blieved it's what God wanted him to do.
Blair is a liar. Liars, like yourself, are very easy to debate.
He is one of the most pathetic and clueless people I have ever had to listen to.
So I take it you had no luck producing any evidence that Iran has nukes. I knew you wouldn't be able to find it. After all, 16 intelligence agencies say there is no evidence, the IAEA says there is no evidence, and even the Israeli government has no evidence.
Your lies as so easy to pick apart, it's like taking candy from a baby.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 07:40am
sjchermak
Conservatives are hosts to the most racist and extramist elements in this country. All white supremacists are Conservatives. All Islamophobes are Conservatives.
Conservatives are the ones who created secret prisons, gave us toture and secret rendition. Conservatives are the ones who gave us the DHS, the Patriot Act, illegal wire taps and indefinite detention and got rid of habeus corpus.
Conservatives are opposed to rasiging the minimum wage and believe in taxing the poor.
Fortunately Conservatism is now dead. The Consevratives will be out of power for many years and good riddance.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 07:46am
Sorry to break it to you emile duBois
Israel–Palestine Liberation Organization letters of recognition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel- Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition
It must be tough to be a right wing dead ender in this day and age.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 07:50am
Incidentally sjchermak,
Just to prove what a hypocrite you are. You said that Sotomayor was unqualified and yet Bush chose chose Harriet Miers, who didn't know the first thing about law for the same position.
You are such a basket case. No wonder the Conservative base is such a freak show.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 07:53am
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 07:50am | ignore this person | warn this person
you are an ass. I have never been a right winger.
Arafat was not murdered by Israelis. it is believed he died of AIDS.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 08:03am
Shingo, mostly good posts from you, newbie.
my views have been expressed in great detail. I suggest you google my present nom de plume, or my previous one, johannesrolf.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 08:08am
emile duBois,
Calling peopel names is a sure sign you're losing the argument.
I just eductaed you in the reality of the Olso accords. I haven't got time to teach you how to read.
You don't havbe to be a right winger. A left wing Zionist can turn into a rabbid wingnut at the very mention of the world Israel. You are pa prime example.
Arafat was under house arrest by the Israelis until he died. The rumour that he died from aids is an Isreli story (ie. a lie). It's not like Israel doesn't have an active assassination program.
I won't waste my time googling you. If oyu have something to say, then let's hear it. Put up or shut up.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 08:13am
Incidentally emile,
Yo mentioned a previous nom de plume. Why the change? Have you been banned in the past?
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 08:14am
I have never been banned. I just felt like a change.
Arafat's cause of death will always be in dispute, as no autopsy was performed.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 08:32am
"Arafat's cause of death will always be in dispute, as no autopsy was performed."
How convenient. It's so similar to how Israel banned foreign media from entering Gaza. That way, Israel gets to tell the story.
Like I said, Arafat was under house arrest by Israel. The controlled everything that went in and out of the house he died in. That meant they controlled the food he ate, the air he breathed and the water he drank and bathed in. Poisoning him would have been like child's play.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 08:37am
my views on Israel and the palestinian question are far more nuanced than yours. this may be because I have taken the trouble to study the history of the region.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 08:40am
his wife and his group did not even claim that he was poisoned. you are holier than the pope on this one.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 08:47am
I used to be nuanced, but I gave up on nuance when Israel started slaughtering cvilians by the thousands.
If you had indeed studies the history of the region, you would share a similar sense of outrage. It sounds to me that you are conflating study with with being indoctrinated.
You are much easier to see through than you think.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 08:47am
His wife and his group have gone to groung the way that say, Mordechai Vanunu has.
Israel is very good at silencing people. Just ask Amira Hass, who was just arrested for going into Gaza.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 08:49am
His wife and his group have gone to groung the way that say, Mordechai Vanunu has.
try english.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 08:52am
It's almost too easy to make a liar of you Emile,
"Bassam Abu Sharif, who for many years served as an adviser to Yasser Arafat, claimed on Saturday that the former Palestinian Authority chairman died after being poisoned by Israel. "
Ex-Arafat aide: Chirac knows Israel killed Arafat http://www.jpost.com/servl /Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull cid=1186066377190
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 08:52am
Shingo,
The Conservative base are the ones who pressured President Bush to withdraw Harriet Miers' nomination!!
Conservatives do not believe in taxing the poor. What lib told you that?
There are many economists who say that raising the minimum wage is counter productive and causes harm, not help to the people libs claim they are helping.
Check out Dr. Walter E. Williams of George Mason University....
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/
He would wax your ass on economics just like Tony Blair would do to you on Iraq.
Are you aware that the wealthy pay most of the tax in this country now?
Check it out at www.irs.gov
White supremacists are not welcome in Conservatism......if they identify themselves as Conservatives it is the supremacist that is doing that, and they are totally unaware, as you are, of what Conservatism is.........
Why is the Patriot Act wrong? You can not defend that one......
Posted by sjchermak at 06/05/2009 @ 08:53am
Here's another Emile:
The Jerusalem Post reported on 4 November that Uri Dan, a close confidant of Ariel Sharon, has stated that the latter had "eliminated" Yasser Arafat "through his cooks".
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 08:54am
sjchermak,
George Bush WAS a Conservative. Some conservatives pressured President Bush to withdraw Harriet Miers' nomination.
Conservatives have always taxed the poor. Obema lowered taxes on anyone earnign less than $250k.
The minimum wage is now what brought Wall Street to it's knees. It was insane bonus that CEO's paid to themselves.
Tony Blair told British Parliament that Saddam could launch a missile attack on London in 45 minutes. It was a blatant lie. He's so think and uneducated that his first Iraq dossier was an old univerity theis plagiarised from the internet, complete with spleeing mistakes.
How dumb can you get?
The wealthy pay harldy any tax in this country and certainly pay the lowet tax rate.
Teh republicna party is the party of old white men. Everyone knows it. At Republican rallys during the presidential campaign and there were signs attacking Obama for being black. At tea party rallies there were signs attacking Obama for being black. White supremacists are very at home with Conservatives.
The Patriot Act is a facist piece of legislation that was last found in the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. I can see whay you are so much in favor of it.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 09:03am
has Arafat's wife claimed that he was poisoned? No? end of argument.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 09:12am
Sorry emile, but I nailed you.
You said "his group did not even claim that he was poisoned" and I prioved you a liar.
Even an associate of Sharon admitted to poisoning Arafat,
Case closed. You lose Zionist.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 09:17am
BTW Emile,
Did you say something about having stuied the history of the region?
Was that a joke or were you being serious? Because it was very funny.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 09:20am
.Did you say something about having stuied the history of the region?
try english. don't look now, but you are foaming at the mouth.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 09:33am
"try english. don't look now, but you are foaming at the mouth"
Just what I thought. You haven't got a clue about the history of the region have you Emile?
If you had studied the history of the region, you'd know what happened during the Oslo accords and you'd know that Arafat's associates did believe that Arafat was killed by Israel.
The problem with you Zionist stooges is that you've become so lazy and accustomed to relying on propaghanda and lies, that you stopped being able to think for yourselves. The games over Emile. Everyone can see through your BS.
May I suggest that in future, you do some research on subjects you know nothing about before wasting people's time.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 09:42am
Smith, Palestine and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Sixth Edition
An even more sweeping challenge to the accepted view was proposed by Leon Carl Brown in his book, International Politics and the Middle East (1984), suggestively subtitled Old Rules, Dangerous Games. Brown went one step further than Yapp by linking nineteenth century Balkan developments to contemporary Arab politics and to the recurring patterns underlying the dynamics of the inter-Arab state system to the present day.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 09:46am
Shingo
hahahahahaha
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 09:46am
So you learned how to cut and paste Emile, Am I supposed to be impressed?
You haven't even tried to address the arguments in which I soundly defeated you, so you thought you'd go and plagiarise someone's work to try and impress me is that it Elime?
How very sad and pathetic. What does Leon Carl Brown have to say about the Olso accords and Arafat's murder?
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 09:50am
Shingo,
You are just an electronic stereotype. If Conan O'Brian or Dave Letterman were trying to satire what a typical lib is, they could not come up with something better than what you are naturally.
You say:
".......The wealthy pay harldy any tax in this country ......"
You apparently did not go to:
www.irs.gov
If it is not blantly obvious to you... that is the IRS website.....find the area where you can download or view historical tax revenue by income distribution......
......I have done this.......
Crunch the numbers.....
You will find the wealthy pay MOST of the tax.....
You will find the poor pay NO tax.....
This is the Internal Revenue Service website....
this is not a Conservative website.....
it is what it is......
You are such a wingnut that I am sure when George W. Bush was President and if you downloaded the data ...... you would claim that it was fake data and the data came from a server in Karl Rove's office and not the IRS!!!
But now your person, Barack Obama, is President so what is on the IRS website would be the truth, now........
And it will still tell you the wealthy pay most of the tax in this country......
I will admit I have one thing (and only one) in common with the anti-Semitic Mr. Peanut Jimmy Carter......
I apparently have no common sense wasting time arguing with you.... given you have no clue what you are talking about!
Posted by sjchermak at 06/05/2009 @ 09:53am
I cited the sources of my studies of the region.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 09:56am
Typo above,
In my post above "Conan O'Brian" should be "Conan O'Brien"
Posted by sjchermak at 06/05/2009 @ 09:56am
you seem to be under the mistaken impression that standing on a soapbox shouting makes you a taller person.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 09:59am
Yes the wealthy pay the smallest percentage of their income in taxes and my second point is that since Obama came to office, those earning less that 250k pay less taxes than under Bush.
Prove I'm wrong.
I noticed you gave up the argument on Iraq WMD, Iranian nukes and the genius of Tony Blair. Clearly you've run out of ideas on that score.
You have been soundly proven wrong on every topic we've debated, It's obvious who hasn't a clue.
BTW. Here's another morsel for you. It looks like Neo Nazis are perfectly at home with Conservatism.
Far Right, Neo-Nazis, Islamic Fundamentalists Forge Alliance http://www.msmagazine.com/news/printnews.asp?id=6496
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 10:02am
"you seem to be under the mistaken impression that standing on a soapbox shouting makes you a taller person"
No, but addressing the topic of the debate and providing links to back up ones argument makes one a much more informed one.
Where did you learn to tap dance? You seem to have a great deal of trouble stating on topic.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 10:04am
"I cited the sources of my studies of the region."
Firstly, you cited one paragraph from , "Smith, Palestine and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Sixth Edition " which does not prove you studied it.
Secondly the article is unlrelated to the debate at hand, which suggests you haven't studied it at all, but thought that by throwing it into the argument (albeit out of context) you'd impress me.
Didn't work. You're still pathetic.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 10:09am
it is through the study of history, that we find that not every thing is starkly black and white.
you wish to believe that Arafat was poisoned, fine. to present it as fact however is specious. at the very least one might say that the cause of death is disputed.
I did not respond to your Oslo line.
you are just barking up the wrong tree.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 10:13am
Hey sjchermak,
It looks like you got it wrong, even on the tax issue. Is Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, rich enough for you?
Buffett blasts system that lets him pay less tax than secretary
"Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, has criticised the US tax system for allowing him to pay a lower rate than his secretary and his cleaner. "
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece
This is too easy sjchermak,
You're like Sean Hannity with a bad hangover.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 10:13am
Firstly, you cited one paragraph from , "Smith, Palestine and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Sixth Edition " which does not prove you studied it.
I did no such thing. I cited Smith. Brown, too, I cited, albeit in a comment on that book.
I have often cited these books. and I have often challenged hysterical posters like you.
this will have to do. trading insults with you is a crashing bore, as are you.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 10:16am
OK Emile,
At least we've back on topic.
Yes, the cause of Arafat's death was was unconclusive, but highly suspicious. But factor this into the equation:
1. Israel had made countless attempts on his life 2. He was under house arrest by Israeli agents 3. Arafta's associates believe he was poisoned 4. Sharon's associate saidhe was poisoned.
With regard to Oslo, the argument was whether Arafat had recognized Israel and I provided a link that proves he agreed to do so.
Israel–Palestine Liberation Organization letters of recognition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel- Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition
I am not barking up the wrong tree. You just can't stay on topic.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 10:19am
Shingo,
This is absurd.
The wealthy pay most of the tax in this country......look it up at www.irs.gov....
have you gone to www.irs.gov ??
this has nothing to do with tax rates....we are talking about total amount of tax.......
tax rates don't matter....in this argument with you... .
where tax rates DO matter is when you are trying to grow the economy.....then you LOWER the tax rate.....
and more money is available for people to invest or spend......including for wealthy people to invest or spend....
so they grow their businesses and hire more people and start more companies and thus their income grows and THEN.... in many cases......
they wind up paying more in total tax amount even though they are being taxed at a lower rate....
.....and thus the treasury has more revenue.....
this is why you cut tax rates.......this is why JFK advocated cutting tax rates and then LBJ cut the tax rates......
and the result is what you see at www.irs.gov
Look up the data, crunch the numbers.
Warren Buffet is one person....last I knew there are over 300 million people in the United States of America.....
thus the Warren Buffet example means absolutley nothing.....
the relevant data is for the entire country at www.irs.gov
rather than spinning your wheels, go to www.irs.gov and crunch some numbers, eh?
Posted by sjchermak at 06/05/2009 @ 10:44am
There are two sides to the problem and the terrorism and hatred from the Palestinian side has been unrelenting but try and put yourself in the Palestinian's shoes. Every square inch of land you would need to build a State is being taken away and the Israeli government is chained to the settlers. What hope do you see as a Palestinian? What light at the end of the tunnel do you see?
A former senator from North Carolina once said of the Syrians "The Syrians want land, not peace." Unfortunately, that can also be said of the right wing in Israel. Israel's security will not be endangered by freezing the settlements (as has been called for the past forty years) and publicly supporting a two State solution. What will endanger Israel's safety and security is to continue taking more and more land and thus make a two State solution impossible. That should be unacceptable to every Israeli.
I remember watching the television as Anwar Sadat's plane landed in Israel and I watched him descend from the plane and greet all the waiting Israeli government officials. It was surreal. No one thought it was possible that such an event would ever happen. It takes bold leadership to make a leap of faith and try to bridge differences, end decades of hatred, and bring peace to their people and Israel does not have that in Netanyahu and the status quo and demographics are working to the detriment of Israel. A two State solution and giving back land may be difficult for Israel but a true leader does not look only to today but looks to the future for his people and will do what is truly best for them.
Posted by mjkoch at 06/05/2009 @ 11:38am
I did not think it possible to find a new blogger that could insult both the right and the left as this young idiot, Shingo has done.
it is obvious from his posts that he relies entirely on spin from sites like Electronic intifada or perhaps radioislam.org?
And his knowledge of US history and politics is equally misinformed.
This is not someone who is capable of intelligent debate.
Posted by antisocialist at 06/05/2009 @ 11:44am
mjkoch
Bibi is a direct result of the latest intifada. when people are subjected to attacks, it is hard for them to think and act clearly. look what happened to our country after we were attacked. this of course is also true of the palestinians.
I think Obama made a good start.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 11:46am
well, the words may be a home run but i bet the actions will be more like a bunt.
Posted by frosty zoom at 06/04/2009 @ 2:31pm
I'm thinking more like a single...but as long as it advances the runners...it's a good thing, as Martha would say.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 06/05/2009 @ 1:00pm
Posted by sjchermak at 06/04/2009 @ 7:07pm
I was stating what Obama said in his speech...that the Israeli politicians and the Arab and Palestinian politicians know that the other side isn't going anywhere. Yes, there will always be the "death to Israel" radicals, and the fanatical Jews who hate the Palestinians and Arabs, but they can no longer be tolerated by people who say they want peace. Obama totally outed them into the public sphere by telling the world, "Here's what they say in private."
By revealing that fact in such a major speech, he was telling the politicians that they can no longer go back to their people with incendiary remarks like "Death to Israel" without being made to look like fools in the public sphere. There's a fate worse than death for a politician!
That is a monumental shift of focus. He also put the Israelis on notice by saying, "OK, if you REALLY want the bombing to stop, you have to stop the settlements." He put the Palestinians on notice by saying, "OK, if you REALLY want a homeland, recognize Israel's right to exist."
A peace process does not happen overnight. Because Reagan didn't follow up on Carter's Camp David accords, the process was perverted into endless war. Obama's speech simply said to all the parties involved, "Grow up and act like adults, because ultimately, no one will win." That's been acknowledged by the politicians in the backrooms...and now it's on the table in public. That's what Obama was saying.
"It's easier to start a war than to end one." Truer words have never been spoken. Peace is hard.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 06/05/2009 @ 1:20pm
Obama is very very very explicit about how wrong holocaust denial is,yet says not a word about Israel--or the US for that matter--denying very very very explicitly the Armenian Holocaust. It's bad that the Jews were victims, yes, but how about the Jews perpetrating the holocaust of the Palestinians in Gaza? How about Israel refusing to co-operate with the UN investigation of Israeli war crimes? How Obama lectures to the world and claims that the US does NOT torture, yes but he doesn't say the US still renditions people to other countries--like Egypt--to be tortured as we speak. Jermey Scahill, who wrote "Blackwater,The Rise Of The World's Most Mercenary Army" told Amy Goodman on Democracy Now about two weeks ago that the US IS STLL practicing torture despite what Obama says.
Posted by mystic at 06/05/2009 @ 1:24pm
...it is believed he died of AIDS.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 08:03am
OMG. I have never heard that. Really? Is there a link or something with more info on that?
Thanks.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 06/05/2009 @ 1:36pm
this is of course disputed by some, and confirmed by some. I would google Arafat and aids. just use your bullshit detector, and believe what you will.
Stephen, do you live in NYC?
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 2:14pm
Emile - no, I live in Los Angeles.
Overall, I am truly amazed by the political insight and execution of this particular trip overseas.
1. He visits Saudia Arabia, spiritual home of Islam and meets with the King, protector of the two most holy Islamic sites (Mecca and Medina). They meet at the King's ranch...shades of Bush bringing state leaders to HIS ranch?
2. Visits Cairo, hotbed of radical Islam, home of the Islamic "street," and home to one of the oldest continual civilizations on earth, and gives a major speech at a university known for its secular views, in which he asks the three major parties to peace (Muslims, Jews and Christians) to get over themselves and find common ground. The speech is met with both positive and negative reviews (as expected), because he knew he wouldn't make everyone happy.
3. The next day he visits Buchenwald with Elie Weisel and the German Chancellor, reminding everyone that the Jews (who don't like being blamed for anything going on in the Middle East) are victims in all of this, too. He also confirms his statement of a day before that not only does Israel have the right to exist, but that the Israeli politicians, understanding and having lived through holocaust, need to bring real compassion to the table with the Palestinians, not just their overbearing arms superiority.
Political masterstroke, and a very Christian thing to do. Blessed be the peacemakers for they are the sons of god.
I don't know about the rest of ya'll, and I certainly don't agree with every choice he's made (or will make, I am sure), but I get the feeling watching him that's he's at least two steps ahead of everyone else. The world is seeing the political skill of the man who beat the Clinton machine; and Hillary is now at his side.
Brilliant.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 06/05/2009 @ 2:33pm
"this is of course disputed by some, and confirmed by some. I would google Arafat and aids. just use your bullshit detector, and believe what you will.
Stephen, do you live in NYC?
Posted by emile duBois"
Emile, I almost always disagree with you, and hurahh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You right on this.
Posted by mystic at 06/05/2009 @ 3:26pm
"The Talmud tells us: "The whole of the Torah is for the purpose of promoting peace." (hkaplan) Please don't confuse the Torah and the Talmud. The Talmud says it's OK for Jews to kill non-Jews; Here are a few quotes but google the rest--it gets much worse:
"The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts." Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b
"It is permitted to take the body and the life of a Gentile." Sepher ikkarim III c 25
Moed Kattan 17a: If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.
Posted by mystic at 06/05/2009 @ 3:42pm
On a serious note, what are you guys having for dinner tonight?
Posted by WWW at 06/05/2009 @ 3:44pm
shrimp and rulo. what's rulo? a small green plantain, which fries up like a potatoe.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 5:04pm
potato
Posted by emile duBois at 06/05/2009 @ 5:04pm
antisocialist,
It alarms me that someone who is so politically and idelogiclaly biased as you would be ina positino to give cousel to others. You are an extrmist wuth distubing ideas.
The left/right paradigm is one that those on the right tendto obsess about, because it is presents false choices. I do not believe that my positions or ideas need to be tempered by or conform to pre-determined ideological ideas.
Your derogatory reference to Electronic intifada or radioislam.org underline your islamphobic position, though that has already been extablished. When I debate Zionist propaghandists like yourself, I go out fo my way to cite mainstream news sources for the very reason you just demonstrated.
We have already established also that you are prepared to lie to make your point ie, that Obama promised to destroy Israel. You obviously inhabit an alternative universe where lack of evidence for the existence of Iraqi WMD and Iranian nukes proves that they exist.
You won't debate me simply because I am exposing you as a fraud and a liar.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 5:16pm
Emile,
You could google Arafat and aids, just liek you could Google Israel and 911, but all that proves is that there are conspiracy theories out there.
Or you could refer to 2 articles from the Jerusalem post that report that someone close to Ariel Sharon and an associate of Arafat believe he was murdered by Israel.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 5:19pm
sjchermak,
Yes it is absurd that a man like Buffer pays a lower tax rate than his own cleaner.
The wealthy pay most of the tax in this country, yes, but they also pay the lowest tax rate.
So why do tax rates not matter? You know perfectly well that the wealthy get to keep a greater percentage of their income, so they pay less tax.
Tax rates all that matters, period. The wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation's net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%. How could they not therefore pay the highest volume of tax, even if the poor were taxed at 50%?
Warren Buffet is one person yes, but it doesn't matter that he is one person. He is redivulously wealthy and yet pays less tax than his cleaner.
Why would his case be any different than the rest of the 300 million people in the United States of America. Aren't all 300 million bound by the same tax rules and the same tax brackets?
If Warren Buffet paid only 1% of tax on his income and his cleaner 35%, he'd still be paying more tax than her, but it's obvious who would be more dissadvantaged at the end of the day.
You're the one spinning your wheels.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 5:35pm
This is really wild stuff:
......the wealthy pay harldy any tax in this country.....
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 09:03am
........The wealthy pay most of the tax in this country, yes........
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 5:35pm
..........I do not believe that my positions or ideas need to be tempered by or conform to pre-determined ideological ideas. ............
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 5:16pm
My comments (about the 5:16 pm post) :
1. You didn't really need to make that statement.... it is kind of blatantly obvious.
2. I can't imagine what kind of ideology WOULD accommodate all your wild stuff.
3. I would have no idea if Conan O'Brien or David Letterman ever come to this site, if they do and if they have seen your postings they are probably jealous right now they didn't think of your stuff first to use in their opening monologues. Do you have a copyright on it? Can they still use it anyway?
Posted by sjchermak at 06/05/2009 @ 8:20pm
You won't debate me simply because I am exposing you as a fraud and a liar.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 5:16pm
Not at all, debating you is simply unfair. It's not right for me to debate with some one like yourself that suffers from a complete lack of cognitive capacity.
It's about the equivalent of me arm wrestling with one of my grandchildren. There's no pleasure in something where the other side has no capacity to win.
Since coming on this site, you deny all historical record of world history. In debating others like Schermak on taxes, you show yourself ignorant of the data.
You called Emile a right wing zionist which had to get all of us on both the right and the left laughing. Emile is a hardcore leftist by his own admission.
You are nothing but a little juvenile twerp who has let some leftist professors and some anti-semitic websites manipulate your already feeble brain.
Most of the bloggers are not engaging you because both the right and the left here are accustomed to sorting out those who can actually debate and those who just spout lies and propaganda like yourself.
Come back here when you grow up and can engage in adult debate.
Posted by antisocialist at 06/05/2009 @ 10:12pm
sjchermak,
Want to her some wild stuf?
"You will find the poor pay NO tax..... " Posted by sjchermak at 06/05/2009
And yet, Warren Buffet has stated that he pays a lower tax rathe than his cleaner.
Too easy.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 10:29pm
antisocialist,
I have already demonstrated that you are a liar and blinded by a cult like ideology, so you might find that arm wrestling me will probably break your frail limbs.
For example, suggesting that I denied all historical record of world history is extreme hyperbole seeing as the only topic we have even addressed is the Israel Palestine issue.
Schermak fails to comprehend the distinction between tax money tax rates. He also is among the few dead enders who still believe that Iraq was a threat before we invaded and calims that everyone in the world knows Iran has nukes, when no one has produced any evidence.
He also believes in some myth that Arafats last words before he died was that he recognized Israel existence, even though he's singed a mutual agreement of recognition with Israel during the Oslo accords.
Emile, who apparently has never heard of the Oslo accords either, can claim to be a hard core leftist, which might be the case with regards to anything beyond the Israeli Palestine issue, but as I explained, even hard core leftist with a Zionist bent are capable of shape shifting into right wing Zionists at the mere mention of Israel.
Emile also prefers to believe that Arafat died of aids (based on the fact you can Google it) while iarguing that 2 Jerusalem Post reports which claim that Araft was poisoned are inconclusive.
BTW. I never took the Jerusalem Post to be an anti-Semitic web site.
Another thing anti Socialist, most of the bloggers are not engaging me because they are disagreeing with you. After all, the only members of the Zionist flat earth society here are yourself, Emile and sjchermak and you.
I am still awaiting the quote from Obama's speech that includes the promise to destroy Israel.
Take your time.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 10:36pm
antisocialist,
It ocured to me that you are not a Christian. After all, if Jesus did exist, he was probably the purest soclialist of all, and seeing as you are antisocialist, that can only mean that you partake in worsipping the anti Christ.
Fascinating indeed.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 10:38pm
That clatter you hears was the sound of antisocialist's dentures hitting his monitor as he screams impotently at his computer. antisocialist angrily shakes his cane at the heavens and wipes the spittle off his screen, "....Christians and Jews should be concerned about what levels this man will sink to, in selling out to Islam.
...He will even help with the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people if it will draw him acceptance among those who are in greater number (the Muslims).
...All during his campaign, he ran from his Muslim roots. Now he boasts about them.
...He is the ultimate hypocrite, liar, and may well be the most dangerous president in our history."
Jaysus, do you still wear a fedora?? Carry a sap around in your pocket?
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 10:58pm
antisocialist,
It ocured to me that you are not a Christian. After all, if Jesus did exist, he was probably the purest soclialist of all, and seeing as you are antisocialist, that can only mean that you partake in worsipping the anti Christ.
Fascinating indeed.
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 10:38pm
Just another evidence of your ignorance. The "Jesus the socialist" is just pure nonsense from leftists. Jesus never advocated govt aid. He commanded personal responsibility for helping others.
Posted by antisocialist at 06/05/2009 @ 11:15pm
Jesus advocated paying tax, when he said render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, because Caesar's identity appeared on the currency at the time.
Jesus advocated charity and social services when he said "If you have two coats, give one to the poor. If you have extra food, give it away to those who are hungry."
Jesus attacked the concept of greed, which is the foundation of captilism.
Jesus never advocated govt aid, but advocated communal aid, which is a socialist value.
Biblically documented teachings of Jesus Christ clearly show that Jesus is a Liberal.
His philosophy, based in compassion, equality, inclusion, forgiveness, tolerance, peace and - most importantly - love, is 100% Liberal.
God hates those who sow discord and stir up trouble (Proverbs 6:19).
The one that most exposes you as anti Christian is "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God" (Matthew 5:9).
You have demonstated that you are no peacemaker. You are commited to division and maintaining hatred and conflict.
You never bothered to explain why you are only prepared to discuss references of violence from the New Testament and not the rest of the Bible.
Oh, and that quote from Obama's speech that calls for Israel's destruction would be most appreciated. After all, lying is not a Christian vaue is it antisocialist?
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 11:57pm
On the whole, I agree with Dreyfuss's article. However,I find his characterization of the UAE as a "desert kleptocracy" to be the same kind of crude stereotype that Obama objected to in his speech. The UAE does have problems certainly. But its rulers are not rich because they have stolen from their people. They are rich because they have sold oil, and in fact they have been fairly generous in spreading the wealth around among their citizens, if not to their foreign laborers. The UAE governmant has supplied its people with schools, roads, and hospitals. The Emiratis themselves have a high standard of living, and the professionals from other countries fair reasonably well also. There is much room for improvement in the UAE, especially in the ways in which recruiting companies can exploit helpless and desperate Asisan workers. But to characterize the Emirati government as a pack of thieves simply reflects the writer's ignorance of the complexity of the problem and perhaps his stereotypes of Arabs,
Posted by inuae at 06/06/2009 @ 11:21am
Oh, and that quote from Obama's speech that calls for Israel's destruction would be most appreciated. After all, lying is not a Christian vaue is it antisocialist?
Posted by Shingo at 06/05/2009 @ 11:57pm
Calling for establishment of a nation of people sworn to your destruction in the center of your nation is calling for Israel's destruction. When mortars can be fired at will to every city in Israel, Israel is not safe.
Giving moral equivalency to people who are committed to your death is not acting as a fair agent.
Posted by antisocialist at 06/06/2009 @ 12:55pm
"Calling for establishment of a nation of people sworn to your destruction in the center of your nation is calling for Israel's destruction."
Posted by antisocialist at 06/06/2009 @ 12:55pm
Firstly, the West Bank and Gaza are not in the center of Israel.
Secondly, the creation of a Palestinian State and a freeze of illegal settlements has been US policy for decades. In fact, even though Israel has only been paying lipp service to these policies, they have even been Israeli policy.
"Giving moral equivalency to people who are committed to your death is not acting as a fair agent."
They are committed to their own independence and freedom. As Ben Gurion said, the struggle is about 2 people with equally legitimate claims for nationhood.
BTW antisocialist, do you subscribe to the John Hagee school of dispensationalists who believe that the creation of an Israeli state is a prerequisite to the rapture?
Posted by Shingo at 06/08/2009 @ 8:31pm