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RedditThat bogus "terrorist plot" in New York has fallen from the headlines, but its pernicious impact lingers on. My earlier piece on this story, written late last week, drew a lot of comments, and a number of people contacted me about the story, too.
Here are a few updates.
First, a sensible AP story puts it in perspective, emphasizing the role of the FBI's agent-provocateur who entrapped the four men now charged in the "chilling" terrorism plot:
What happens to these cases after the media spotlight fades and the noise dies down? And are the snitches involved reliable?"Most of these guys don't get tried," said security analyst Bruce Schneier. "These are not criminal masterminds, they're idiots. There's huge fanfares at the arrest, and then it dies off."
The New York men arrested last week were ex-convicts down on their luck. In federal court, one admitted that he'd recently gotten stoned. "I smoke it regularly," he told the judge. Not to worry, he added, "I understand everything you are saying." ...
However, court statistics show that most domestic terrorism cases never make it to trial.
And why don't then make it to trial? Because nearly every one of them is utterly bogus.
A reader of The Dreyfuss Report forwarded an interesting piece that reveals some information about the FBI's agent-provocateur in the New York case, apparently a Pakistani immigrant who'd been busted for felony fraud and then recruited by the FBI to go around searching for domestic "terrorists." He was involved in a case in upstate New York several years ago, helping to frame an Iraqi Kurd named Yassin Aref in an unrelated "terrorism" plot:
When illegal eavesdropping failed to turn up any improper activity on Yassin's part, the FBI engaged a Pakistani immigrant named Malik, who already had been convicted of 80 to 100 felonies in a scheme to market fraudulent drivers licenses, and essentially told him that the government would make all of his legal troubles go away (and cancel his scheduled deportation) if he could entrap Yassin into terrorist activity by means of a concocted "sting."According to the fictitious plot, the government set Malik up as a supposed secret arms merchant who sold missiles to terrorist groups, particularly JEM (Jaish-e-Mohammed), which sought to liberate Muslim Kashmir from India. Malik offered to loan money to a member of Yassin's mosque if Yassin would witness the transactions for free in the Islamic tradition (as a notary does, under American law)--a perfectly legal and even praiseworthy act by Yassin, under normal circumstances.
For a proper "sting," Malik was to tell Yassin that the money for the loan came from the sale of missiles to JEM, which intended to use the missiles in an assassination in New York City. If Yassin witnessed the loan transactions with the intent to help Malik conceal the illegal source of the money for the loan, he would be guilty of several terrorist-related crimes.
But Malik did not give Yassin the necessary information for him to understand the illegality of the plot, the loan, or the witnessing. As a result, the sting never developed; instead, it became a simple frame-up by the government.
You can read the whole piece, by one of Aref's attorneys, here.
The New York Post has more details on the agent-provocateur's role in the earlier case, too:
The FBI informant in the Bronx synagogue terror plot helped convict two Albany Muslims on terror-related money-laundering charges three years ago.Shahed Hussain, 52, an upstate motel owner, turned informant in 2002 after being busted on fraud charges while working as a translator for the Department of Motor Vehicles. The man, who had helped immigrants cheat on driver's tests, began cooperating with the FBI in a bid to win leniency in court and avoid deportation to Pakistan.
The informant then posed as an arms buyer who needed to launder money from the sale of a shoulder-launched missile to be used to kill a Pakistani envoy. His act duped Albany pizzeria owner Mohammed Hossain into laundering cash for him, while Yassin Aref, an Albany imam, acted as a witness.
Hossain and Aref were convicted and sentenced to 15 years in prison.
Several of the informant's tenants told The Post that he claims to be a "spy" for the FBI, and that he "blew out of here Tuesday night." One tenant said the cooperator was on the telephone "a few weeks back . . . telling somebody about buying guns."
Aref's lawyer, Terence Kindlon, called the informant "a liar and a sneak and a trickster."
Hossain's lawyer, Kevin Luibrand, said the informant "completely lied" to his FBI handlers about information in the Albany case.
You can read more about the new case at the New York Times blog, which also has some interesting links.
The Times also has detailed profiles of the four men accused in the latest case, all petty criminals with only the most tenuous connection to Islam and no connection whatsoever to any terrorist groups.
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it indeed appears that this was not exactly the big hooha the fbi trumpeted it to be.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/25/2009 @ 3:23pm
And we'll be reading about more sting-op frame-ups from the NYPD, as we draw closer to the '12 GOP primaries & multibillionaire Bloomberg's buying of the GOP presidential nomination.
Once that nomination is securely in his pocket, look for something more spectacular to make Mike B look like superman next to wimpy floundering Obama, sinking in 2 wars & massive unemployment.
We the People have much more staged excitement to look forward to.
Posted by sloper at 05/25/2009 @ 3:25pm
We the People have much more staged excitement to look forward to.
Posted by sloper at 05/25/2009 @ 3:25pm | ignore this person | warn this person
looks like...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/25/2009 @ 3:38pm
it indeed appears that this was not exactly the big hooha the fbi trumpeted it to be.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/25/2009 @ 3:23pm
all in time for the BIG SPEECHES!
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/25/2009 @ 3:41pm
TERROR ALERT LEVEL RAISED TO TEA ROSE!
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/25/2009 @ 3:45pm
all in time for the BIG SPEECHES!
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/25/2009 @ 3:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person
the linked story about the kurdish imam does indeed appear to be a tragic miscarriage of justice.
the lives of the "newcastle four" appeared tragic enough without the government's help...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/25/2009 @ 3:52pm
Instead of the subtle misdirection Dreyfuss, why don't you answer the questions you are suggesting.
1. Do you believe there are no Muslims in the US who are either planning or would like to engage in jihadist efforts against the US?
2. If they had successfully driven suicide vehicles into targets here, would you still refer to them as merely inept minor criminals?
BTW, #2 does not require a genius IQ, just a willing body.
I believe like many on the left, you are too willing to dismiss the idea that there are a sizable number of Muslims in this country with radical Islamic views.
For instance the 2006 Pew Poll on Muslims in America showed that 15% of Muslims under 30 believe suicide bombings are an acceptable means of defending Islam. If 25% of American Muslims are btw 18-29, that means 52,500 support that means of attack.
If only 2% believe that such attacks are legitimate inside the US, that means over a 1000 young adult Muslims are potential suicide murderers in the US. And probably 2-3 times that number would carry out other kinds of attacks if given the opportunity.
So, I have no problem rooting out anyone who might fall into this subset of America.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/25/2009 @ 5:01pm
Anti, it doesn't matter if there are 1 or 10 or 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 would-be terrorists in the United States. They all, each and every one, deserve due process. However, if indeed there are any radical Muslims here at home who believe in terrorism, so far at least they have not acted out those beliefs, I am sure you would agree, for the most part, since there have been no actual terrorist attacks.
There is a vast difference between someone who is angry, even filled with rage, about some issue or other, and someone who acts on that anger. I am sure that if the FBI wanted to, it could send agent-provocateurs into, say white pool halls in the South and recruit a few angry, beer-swilling good ole boys to go out and burn down a black church, especially if they offered them money, access to weapons, and so on. All that would prove is that angry, alienated people can be provoked to violence.
As to your point about: what if they had been successful? Did you miss the part where there was no plot -- repeat, no plot, nothing, nada -- until the FBI's errand boy showed up and cooked one up?
As for the existence of radical Muslims: yes, there are quite a few, I suspect. The more we torture, allow Abu Ghraibs, invade Muslim countries, and so on, the more there will be. But being "radical" is not the same thing as being a "terrorist."
Posted by RobertDreyfuss at 05/25/2009 @ 5:13pm
Here is the Pew poll link. I also underestimated the percentage between 18-29; it is 30%, not 25%.
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf
Posted by antisocialist at 05/25/2009 @ 5:15pm
As for the existence of radical Muslims: yes, there are quite a few, I suspect. The more we torture, allow Abu Ghraibs, invade Muslim countries, and so on, the more there will be. But being "radical" is not the same thing as being a "terrorist."
Posted by RobertDreyfuss at 05/25/2009 @ 5:13pm
This is a strawman. Jihadists did not have any of those incidents prior to the Iraq war to provoke them; yet, we see that the jihadist movement has been on a steady increase for more than 50 years.
As noted in the following example, it is hatred of Jews and Christians that fuels their actions, not any incidents of wrong-doing on our part that may occur.
<It is the very existence of the Jews, not their actions or even their Zionism, that fuels the rhetoric of many Islamic political and religious leaders. "If the Jews left Palestine to us, would we start loving them? Of course not ... They are enemies not because they occupied Palestine. They would have been enemies even if they did not occupy a thing," said Egyptian cleric Muhammad Hussein Ya'qoub. "... You must believe that we will fight, defeat, and annihilate them, until not a single Jew remains on the face of the Earth." (Al-Rahma TV (Egypt), Jan. 17, 2009)
Saudi Sheikh Muhammad bin Abd Al-Rahman Al-'Arifi, Imam of the mosque of King Fahd Defense Academy, discussed the coming Muslim conquest of the Vatican. Citing a Hadith in an article posted on the Kalemat website in 2002, he stated: " We will control the land of the Vatican; we will control Rome and introduce Islam in it. Yes, the Christians, who carve crosses on the breasts of the Muslims will yet pay us the Jiziya [poll tax paid by non-Muslims under Muslim rule], in humiliation, or they will convert to Islam ">
Posted by antisocialist at 05/25/2009 @ 5:20pm
Posted by RobertDreyfuss at 05/25/2009 @ 5:13pm | ignore this person | warn this person
all politics and proselytizing aside...
i'm no fan if islam, as i'm sure you have noted if yo have read my rantage...but...
i'm struck by how few domestic muslims SEEM to have jumped onto the violent jihad bandwagon and how "normal" they have behaved in a difficult situation, all theological points aside. is this because american muslims are largely secular, laid back compared to saudi whabbists, well watched by our government, or some combination of the above?
have you watched "undercover jihad" by the british investigative reporting show, dispatches?
how many american mosques are talking like that? are those who are serious? what is the nature of this phenomenon known as islam in the context of our specific history and future?
is asking these questions bad or simply discomfiting?
didn't mean to seem shrill and mocking of your point, by the way. like i said above, the original appears more barney fifesque the more i hear...though the earlier referenced story looks more sinister. poor guy...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/25/2009 @ 5:26pm
What this episode may accomplish is point up that the FBI is not really interested in getting the sort of information that the CIA was after and some claim they got from KSM. The separate operation goals are chalk on cheese, so it seems and on the evidence this episode only highlights that. Ali Soufan's similar little escapades do nothing to dispel that impression
We have maybe a dozen Muslim "terrorists" now tried and given long gaol sentences. I'm not sure any were sting operations but none of them committed any crime, except under recently (post 9/11) enacted Anti-Terrorism legislation, where apparently it is a very serious crime to contemplate and talk, particularly on police tapped mobiles, to one another about potential targets. Civil libertarians here claim the laws are draconian and should be repealed. Perhaps the success FBI sting operations depend on similar legislation.
The glaring difference with the CIA enhanced interrogations seems to be not so much to get "want to be" more or less harmless "terrorists" locked away but to prevent the 9/11 type events occurring by getting information in a way that means those so interrogated could never be convicted in a court on the basis of that evidence. That indicates different goals.
The FBI it seems, sets up situations to get terrorist and potential terrorist recruits locked away, which may also be a good thing, whereas the CIA is primarily about preventing TTB scenarios.
If this is so, it puts a big dent in the claim that the FBI could have got the information the CIA got with its methods. It seems it has not got the score on the board, linked directly to TTB scenarios and is unlikely to while its objectives are different. All the more reason to release info that would settle that doubt very quickly.
Posted by lrjones4 at 05/25/2009 @ 7:20pm
Those who want these staged law enforcement's theatricals to go on while ignoring the real security threats facing the nation must have few loose screws in their brains.
The grand heist orchestrated by the Wall Street Mafia has deprived millions of Americans of their livelihoods and financial security is being ignored by the government. Matter of fact, the government has rewarded the same criminals with hundred of billions of dollars to camouflage their crimes.
The renegade ex-president and his war criminal cohorts have taken our sleeping nation to an illegal war through lies and deception. Ten of thousands Americans died and wounded, and the cost of the illegal venture is in trillions of dollars. They all got away with it while the nation is left holding the bag.
How about the NeoCons mercenaries who fabricated evidence to take us to an illegal war to promote the Israeli interest, then walked away unscathed?
Even idiots should instinctively know the priorities of our law enforcement at this critical juncture of our nation's history. Instead, resources are being wasted chasing few retarded idiots and enticing them to concoct a grand fantasy, just to fabricate a self-serving political propaganda.
Law enforcement agents better be staking the real terrorists who bankrupted the nation and who brought death and misery to thousands of innocent Americans in a bogus war.
Posted by CripThink at 05/25/2009 @ 8:14pm
Just another case of trying to bring down a brother.
Profilin' motherfuckers.
Posted by bleedingheart at 05/25/2009 @ 9:37pm
"Bogus" hardly begins to get at what we are looking at here as a type of deceitful event. And some posters are ready to predicate on the expectation of more? ?
You are dead wrong to do so; it is suicide for America
The type of event we have here is psychosemiotic: imposing a reign of existential terrorism against those who would think anti-semitoc ("eager to kill Jews") thoughts. Setting up and busting poor dupes from Newburgh for acting on that idea. The entire case consists of video of them planting what can be proven they thought was a bomb, with recorded voices expressing rage, hate, intention to kill, let the jury decide. If that's all they need, this sting operation has defeated justice in the US, already a joke to many.
This links, time and content-wise, to AIPAC's April spy trial victory, overturning years of FBI work to keep Mossad from taking over. The same rogue element might be tweaking the CIA here, by showing it could heist one of the Firm' notorious old stingers, first supplied to Al Queda, to sting anew! -- any and all would be enemies of "America and Jews." ("..they showed anger at Americans and Jews" was a favorite media mantrum quoted about the Newburgh Muslim Terrorists)
There is a case to be made here for a new kind of hi-concept criminality, inflicting irreversible and irrevocable fear, correspondant with the wanton and depraved indifference to human life, dignity and civilized, if not religious respect for masculinity, shown in pictures of torture of Muslim males at Abu Ghraib. Sort of like treating New York City residents, and the rest of us, like that. The death penalty would be appsropriate here, I think. It poisons American discourse about Israel forever to accept this false flag operation. -- Right RD?
Posted by jones at 05/26/2009 @ 01:42am
If only 2% believe that such attacks are legitimate inside the US, that means over a 1000 young adult Muslims are potential suicide murderers in the US.
yet it hasn't happened. (it very well may, as the human animal has the unappealing ability to fulfill the darkest of prophecies. chaos breeds chaos.) but many mass killings have. what? 11, 15 at a go not sufficient enough to trouble our collective psyche?
And probably 2-3 times that number would carry out other kinds of attacks if given the opportunity.
and yet it hasn't happened. maybe THEY're happy because they have jobs and tvs and don't live under a dictatorship. maybe they're happy.
So, I have no problem rooting out anyone who might fall into this subset of America.
hmmm. one can remove an infected tooth with pliers or sledgehammers. but remember, chaos breeds chaos.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/25/2009 @ 5:01p
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/26/2009 @ 01:54am
Anti, it doesn't matter if there are 1 or 10 or 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 would-be terrorists in the United States. They all, each and every one, deserve due process.
these sentences would have been more effective joined with a comma. or perhaps a dash. even a semi-colon. but not a period. it does matter if there are terrorists. unfortunately, people just kinda seem to ignore the nihilistic jihad that is slowly seeping out of the fetid depths of our societies ickiness.
but yeah, due process 111%.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/26/2009 @ 01:58am
However, if indeed there are any radical Muslims here at home who believe in terrorism, so far at least they have not acted out those beliefs, I am sure you would agree, for the most part, since there have been no actual terrorist attacks.
that's what i keep trying to tell these folks. the pumpkin rots from within....
There is a vast difference between someone who is angry, even filled with rage, about some issue or other, and someone who acts on that anger.
that's why it is very troubling to see our children become murderers.
I am sure that if the FBI wanted to, it could send agent-provocateurs into, say white pool halls in the South and recruit a few angry, beer-swilling good ole boys to go out and burn down a black church, especially if they offered them money, access to weapons, and so on.
humans are so gullible...
All that would prove is that angry, alienated people can be provoked to violence.
even angry, alienated peoples.
As to your point about: what if they had been successful?
again, the danger of self-fulfilling prophecies.
Did you miss the part where there was no plot -- repeat, no plot, nothing, nada -- until the FBI's errand boy showed up and cooked one up?
ever listen to nat king cole?
As for the existence of radical Muslims: yes, there are quite a few, I suspect.
alas...
The more we torture, allow Abu Ghraibs, invade Muslim countries, and so on, the more there will be.
alas...
But being "radical" is not the same thing as being a "terrorist."
or a clusterbomb manufacturer for that matter.
Posted by RobertDreyfuss at 05/25/2009 @ 5:13pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/26/2009 @ 02:04am
This is a strawman. Jihadists did not have any of those incidents prior to the Iraq war to provoke them; yet, we see that the jihadist movement has been on a steady increase for more than 50 years.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/25/2009 @ 5:20pm
hmmm....
"Britain imposed a Hāshimite monarchy on Iraq and defined the territorial limits of Iraq without taking into account the politics of the different ethnic and religious groups in the country, in particular those of the Kurds and the Assyrians to the north. During the British occupation, the Shi'ites and Kurds fought for independence. Faced with spiralling costs and influenced by the public protestations of war hero T. E. Lawrence in The Times, Britain replaced Arnold Wilson in October 1920 with new Civil Commissioner Sir Percy Cox. Cox managed to quell the rebellion, yet was also responsible for implementing the fateful policy of close cooperation with Iraq's Sunni minority.[3][4] In the Mandate period and beyond, the British supported the traditional, Sunni leadership (such as the tribal shaykhs) over the growing, urban-based nationalist movement. The Land Settlement Act gave the tribal shaykhs the right to register the communal tribal lands in their own name. The Tribal Disputes Regulations gave them judiciary rights, whereas the Peasants' Rights and Duties Act of 1933 severely reduced the tenants', forbidding them to leave the land unless all their debts to the landlord had been settled. The British resorted to military force when their interests were threatened, as in the 1941 Rashīd `Alī al-Gaylānī coup. This coup led to a British invasion of Iraq using forces from the British Indian Army and the Arab Legion from Jordan. [edit]"
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/26/2009 @ 02:07am
This is a strawman. Jihadists did not have any of those incidents prior to the Iraq war to provoke them; yet, we see that the jihadist movement has been on a steady increase for more than 50 years.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/25/2009 @ 5:20pm
hmmm....
At the subsequent 1919 Paris Peace Conference and Treaty of Versailles, Turkey's loss of its Middle East empire was formalized. The British had in the interim made two agreements. In the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence there was an undertaking to form an Arab state in exchange for the Great Arab Revolt and in the Balfour Declaration in 1917 to "favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" while respecting the rights of existing non-Jewish communities". The Faisal-Weizmann Agreement of the same epoch declared the compatibility of Jewish and Arab nationalist aspirations. McMahon's promises could have been seen by Arab nationalists as a pledge of immediate Arab independence, an undertaking violated by the region's subsequent partition into British and French League of Nations mandates under the secret Sykes-Picot Agreement of May 1916 which became the real cornerstone of the geopolitics structuring the entire region. The Balfour Declaration, likewise, was seen by Jewish nationalists as the cornerstone of a future Jewish homeland on both sides of the Jordan River. Prior to the conference Emir Faisal, British ally and son of the king of the Hijaz, had agreed in the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement to support the immigration of Jews into Palestine and the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine, while creating a large Arab state based in Syria. When the conference did not produce that Arab state, and under pressure from Islamists, Faisal called instead for Palestine to become part of his new Arab
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/26/2009 @ 02:09am
"In 1882 opposition to European control led to growing tension amongst native notables, the most dangerous opposition coming from the army. A large military demonstration in September 1881 forced the Khedive Tewfiq to dismiss his Prime Minister. In April 1882 France and Great Britain sent warships to Alexandria to bolster the Khedive amidst a turbulent climate, spreading fear of invasion throughout the country. Tawfiq moved to Alexandria for fear of his own safety as army officers led by Ahmed Urabi began to take control of the government. By June Egypt was in the hands of nationalists opposed to European domination of the country. A British naval bombardment of Alexandria had little effect on the opposition which led to the landing of a British expeditionary force at both ends of the Suez Canal in August 1882. The British succeeded in defeating the Egyptian Army at Tel El Kebir in September and took control of the country putting Tawfiq back in control. The purpose of the invasion had been to restore political stability to Egypt under a government of the Khedive and international controls which were in place to streamline Egyptian financing since 1876. It is unlikely that the British expected a long-term occupation from the outset, however Lord Cromer, Britain's Chief Representative in Egypt at the time, viewed Egypt's financial reforms as part of a long-term objective. Cromer took the view that political stability needed financial stability, and embarked on a programme sort of of long term investment in Egypt's productive resources, above all in the cotton economy, the mainstay of the country's export earnings. This marked the beginning of British military occupation of Egypt that lasted until 1936. In 1906 the Denshawai incident provoked a questioning of British rule
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/26/2009 @ 02:11am
You must believe that we will fight, defeat, and annihilate them, until not a single Jew remains on the face of the Earth." (Al-Rahma TV (Egypt), Jan. 17, 2009)
Posted by antisocialist at 05/25/2009 @ 5:20pm
sounds like you, larry.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/26/2009 @ 02:12am
is this because american muslims are largely secular, laid back compared to saudi whabbists, well watched by our government, or some combination of the above?
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/25/2009 @ 5:26pm
no, it's because they have jobs and mini-vans and grassy soccer fields and tv.
plus, they don't have dictators.
i see quite a few muslim men missing finger parts.
happiness sure beats pissed-offedness.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/26/2009 @ 02:13am
i need i'd find some more human folly quickly:
DUM DA DUMM!!!!
NATO says Georgia will join as maneuvers are held
NATO reiterates Georgia will become a member as joint military exercises continue
DAVID NOWAK AP News
May 25, 2009 11:35 EST
NATO said Monday that Georgia will eventually become a member -- reaffirming its support for the country with which it is hosting joint military exercises, to Russia's dismay.
just that old, sweet, song.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/26/2009 @ 02:24am
the wheels on the bus..
"Russian Uranium Sale to U.S. Is Planned
By ANDREW E. KRAMER and MATTHEW L. WALD Published: May 25, 2009
MOSCOW -- Russia, already a large supplier of nuclear-reactor fuel to Europe and Asia, is expected on Tuesday to sign its first purely commercial contract to supply low-enriched uranium to United States utilities.
With the signing, Russia's nuclear-fuel trade with the United States will shift to a commercial footing, similar to Russia's dealings with other consumers of fuel, like France and the Netherlands, both longtime buyers of Russian uranium."
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/26/2009 @ 02:29am
"The FBI set up "Abdul Enterprises, Ltd." in 1978. FBI employees posed as Middle Eastern businessmen in videotaped talks with government officials, where they offered money in return for political favors to a non-existent sheikh. A house (4407 W St. NW, Washington, D.C.), along with a yacht in Florida and hotel rooms in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, were used to set up meetings between various public officials and a mysterious Arab sheikh named "Kambir Abdul Rahman" who wanted:
To purchase asylum in the U.S.
To involve them in an investment scheme
To get help in getting his money out of his country
Much of the operation was directed by Melvin Weinberg, a convicted con artist, who was hired by the FBI for that purpose. It was the first major operation by the FBI to trap corrupt public officials; up until 1970 only ten members of Congress had ever been convicted of accepting bribes.
On February 2, 1980, NBC Nightly News became the first media outlet to break the story that FBI personnel were targeting members of Congress in a sting operation. The FBI had codenamed the operation "Abscam", a contraction of "Abdul scam", after the name of the company."
σrale.....
the wheels on the bus..
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/26/2009 @ 02:33am
what is the nature of this phenomenon known as islam in the context of our specific history and future?
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/25/2009 @ 5:26pm
The great European flow of migration to North America, which began in the middle of the 17th century and continued into the 20th century, was particularly attractive to those from Bavaria who wished to escape either poverty or religious persecution. For many Bavarian tenant farmers, the chance to own their own land was a major incentive. So the widespread colonization of the United States began in 1650, when many immigrants from Germany settled in pockets in Pennsylvania, Texas, New York, Illinois, and California. In Canada, German settlement centered in Ontario and the prairie provinces. Among those of this surname listed in various historical records were: Abraham Dryfoos, who settled in Philadelphia in 1860; Joseph Dryfoos settled in Philadelphia in 1860; Barnard Dryfus settled in Philadelphia in 1841; Sam UEL Dryfuss settled in Philadelphia in 1840.
i think you'll be o.k. the u.s. constitution is stronger than those musty ol' books.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/26/2009 @ 02:40am
Historical symmetry ...
Sen. Harrison Williams Jr. (R-NJ), who was the bribee caught by the FBI in Abscam, had been the senate overseer of the securities industry, e.g. mutual funds & outfits like Madoff's.
His dad, Harrison Williams Sr., was a Wall St pyramider, not unlike Madoff, who also ended up in prison. Williams Sr schemes were later outlawed in the '30s ... & forced abroad (remember Bernie Cornfeld & IOS?), but Reagan era dereg cleared the decks for pyramiding once again, and the Obama admin shows no inclination so far to forbid these scams.
Legacies.
Posted by sloper at 05/26/2009 @ 04:00am
Posted by antisocialist at 05/25/2009 @ 5:20pm
I notice you completely skipped over everything he said to go after the one point you thought you could attack. There have been more than 50 years of exploitation in the Muslim world starting long before Iraq. The west has had it's hand busy in the heart of the Muslim world for a long time. If you don't know that you need to take a history lesson. So this argument that it was only the Iraq war that gave them reason to hate the west is laughable at best.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 05/26/2009 @ 04:19am
WTF IS THIS "frosty zoom" trying to do/say? Cover up for the macaca Jews (There are two kinds of Jews...) by spamming the obvious?
WHat's going on here? Is ol' Frosty the board's "FBI informant in the Mosque?" Every gate gets its it own keeper, I guess. .
Where is Dreyfuss' reply to my point it is a new dimension of high criminality that deserves the death penalty for that particular way of being?
Posted by jones at 05/26/2009 @ 06:30am
I'll put it up again
"Bogus" hardly begins to get at what we are looking at here as a type of deceitful event. And some posters are ready to predicate on the expectation of more?
You are dead wrong to do so; it is suicide for America
The type of event we have here is psychosemiotic: imposing a reign of existential terrorism against those who would think anti-semitoc ("eager to kill Jews") thoughts. Setting up and busting poor dupes from Newburgh for acting on that idea. The entire case consists of video of them planting what can be proven they thought was a bomb, with recorded voices expressing rage, hate, intention to kill, let the jury decide. If that's all they need, this sting operation has defeated justice in the US, already a joke to many.
This links, time and content-wise, to AIPAC's April spy trial victory, overturning years of FBI work to keep Mossad from taking over. The same rogue element might be tweaking the CIA here, by showing it could heist one of the Firm' notorious old stingers, first supplied to Al Queda, to sting anew! -- any and all would be enemies of "America and Jews." ("..they showed anger at Americans and Jews" was a favorite media mantrum quoted about the Newburgh Muslim Terrorists)
There is a case to be made here for a new kind of hi-concept criminality, inflicting irreversible and irrevocable fear, correspondant with the wanton and depraved indifference to human life, dignity and civilized, if not religious respect for masculinity, shown in pictures of torture of Muslim males at Abu Ghraib. Sort of like treating New York City residents, and the rest of us, like that. The death penalty would be appsropriate here, I think. It poisons American discourse about Israel forever to accept this false flag operation. -- Right RD?
Posted by jones at 05/26/2009 @ 06:32am
actually, there are 13.2 million types of jews.
as to yourcaca, i'm not really interested.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/26/2009 @ 07:31am
Posted by antisocialist at 05/25/2009 @ 5:01pm "For instance the 2006 Pew Poll on Muslims in America showed that 15% of Muslims under 30 believe suicide bombings are an acceptable means of defending Islam."
Here's another poll result for you. A 2004 ICM poll found that 71% of American Christians would be willing to die for their religion.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/3518221.stm
Posted by raaustin at 05/26/2009 @ 08:03am
Posted by antisocialist at 05/25/2009 @ 5:01pm
Larry, if it was "1000 Christian pro-life extremists out of millions, who believed that killing abortion doctors was justified".....same standard from you, right?
Posted by Mask at 05/26/2009 @ 08:03am
In order to justify the existence of the Orwellian "Patriot Act" and the funding of the Dept of "Homeland Security" the F.B.I needs to cook up these stings every so often. It is undoubtedly a case of entrapment. Reminds me of the MSNBC series "To Catch a Predator". The method to catch these so-called sexual predators is a process developed by "Perverted Justice", an apt and ironic description.
These are both examples of making news instead of reporting it. In both cases most of these cases are dropped. It is all about the money. For the dept of Homeland Security, the F.B.I and Perverted Justice.
It is all just another example of the sick and twisted condition of a Nation that knows nothing, thinks nothing and feels nothing.
We are in deep doo-doo. Wake up America!
Posted by chaoszen at 05/26/2009 @ 08:13am
I created a dossier on FBI entrapment since 9/11 at:
http://louisproyect.wordpress.com
Posted by lnp3 at 05/26/2009 @ 08:15am
Some of us play the part of the Canary in the Mine Shaft. When that plucky bird ceases to sing, something noxious and foul is in the air!
Posted by chaoszen at 05/26/2009 @ 08:27am
Posted by lnp3 at 05/26/2009 @ 08:15am
I will check it out 1np3.
Posted by chaoszen at 05/26/2009 @ 08:31am
(I checked it -- good stuff. Is there really a Bard official named Botstein?)
The criminality in this (NYC fake bomb plot) is not the low level entrapment by one bad FBI apple. This was scripted down to fine details, to set up ironclad "eager to kill Jews" "hatred of Americans and Jews" propaganda front, oxygen that it is for Israel's cause.
Just expressing them is enough to get you stung hard, if not strung up, according to today's NY Daily ews' clever editorial "Error on Terror". The error is not that the authorities did anything wrong, you understand; neversay.
You see, they really ARE all alike, using DHS Napolitano to finger all of us whom they hate. In a memo so absurd it had to be retracted with apologies to returning soldiers for politically branding them as suspicious citizens. But now broad punishments must be pressed with death penalty for the inner cabal responsible for even thinking they could pull off these black flag operations. It's gonna keep happening until that's done, they get so much PR mileage out of the cringong, bed-wetting, and the like.
I blog at sidthomas.blogspot and I push for repudiation of debt and massive collective cleansing of every influence that has followed the surge" after the 2006 national election, which was a criminal reversal of the will of the people expressed in the vote to get the hell out of Iraq. The entire '08 campaign must also be repudiated, along with the entire act of Larry Obama Parks playing Al Jolson in blackface singing Mammy and, of course, anyone who voted for either Bush. They are all anti-American snake brain satan worshippers whose agenda is Protocol #3.
Posted by jones at 05/26/2009 @ 10:23am
The west has had it's hand busy in the heart of the Muslim world for a long time. If you don't know that you need to take a history lesson.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 05/26/2009 @ 04:19am
Young grasshopper, you continue to look and respond with a severe case of myopia. You see only what you want to see in my responses. You, along with most of your jihadist apologists here are the ones guilty of ignoring history. As I noted on the previous thread, it was Islam that began soon after it's inception to declare war on all civilization outside of itself
<I guess Spain and Italy were guilty of conspiring against Islam and that's why the Muslims invaded Spain in 711 AD and Italy in 828 AD.
Or the historic Battle of Tours 732 AD where Charles Martel defeated the Moors invasion of Europe.
<The Battle of Tours followed 21 years of Umayyad conquests in Europe which had begun with the invasion of the Visigothic Christian Kingdoms of the Iberian peninsula in 711. These were followed by military expeditions into the Frankish territories of Gaul, former provinces of the Roman Empire. Umayyad military campaigns had reached northward into Aquitaine and Burgundy, including a major engagement at Bordeaux and a raid on Autun. Charles' victory is widely believed to have stopped the northward advance of Umayyad forces from the Iberian peninsula, and to have preserved Christianity in Europe during a period when Muslim rule was overrunning the remains of the old Roman and Persian Empires>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
continued
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 10:45am
To CCC continued on Islam
Then you have the later waves of onslaught by Islam in the 17th century
The later invasions of Europe including the battle of the Gates of Vienna 1683
The Jihadis besiege Vienna but Polish Heroism saves the day
<During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries the Christian inhabitants of southeast Europe lived in perpetual fear of Muslim invasions. The Mongol-Tartar raiding parties laid waste to the countryside, abducting captives for slaves and ransom; while Ottoman Turkish occupation meant at the least - pillage, sacrilege and extortion.
While for the Mongols-Tartars the sole purpose of waging war was material gain, before they had succumbed to Islam, the aim changed to imposition of Islam after the Mongol Khans after Hulagu Khan embraced Islam. The Turks who has embraced Islam in the 10th century, expressly invaded the Byzantine Empire and later Europe with the aim of converting the Europeans to Islam at the pain of death.
The Turks after overrunning Serbia, Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary, now lunged at the heart of Central Europe by repeatedly attacking Cracow and Vienna. They focused on Vienna as that was the major city, the capture of which would open their advance into Poland and Germany. Sensing the danger, in the winter of 1682-3, Poland, Prussia (Germany) and Austria came to an agreement providing for joint action against a Turkish invasion and promising relief in case of a direct attack on Vienna or Cracow.>
http://www.historyofjihad.org/austria.html
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 10:49am
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 10:49am
But that was only "15% of Islam", right, Larry?
the other 85% were innocent "devotees", right?
Posted by Mask at 05/26/2009 @ 11:03am
But that was only "15% of Islam", right, Larry?
the other 85% were innocent "devotees", right?
Posted by Mask at 05/26/2009 @ 11:03am
Mask, quit misusing the term devotees with my statements. You keep placing the term diametrically opposite of my postings.
it is the 15% that are the devotees (using your example); just as less than 30% of American Christians are actually devotees of Christ.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 11:26am
More on the siege of Vienna
<Kara Mustapha Pasha lead an Ottoman force of 140,000 against Vienna, defended by 11,000. The Viennese gave up their suburbs, withdrew inside the fortified town and prepared for a siege; Emperor Leopold had moved to the western regions of his Habsburg domains. While the siege (July 14th - Sept. 12th) made progress and the area surrounding Vienna was subjected to raids, relief armies had gathered in various regions of the Empire and in Poland (which had been a French ally and thus a Habsburg enemy, but was drawn into the Habsburg camp by papal diplomacy).
Vienna was a strong fortress, but by the end of August 1683, the city was in mortal danger of collapsing to the Turkish attack. Food and ammunition were inadequate, and on September 1, the Turks exploded a mine under the walls and captured one part of the city. Outside the walls however the outlook was brighter. The defeat of a Turkish corps at Bisamberg allowed for the concentration of the allied armies northwest of Vienna. Most importantly 30,000 Poles under their warrior-king Jan Sobieski, the savior of Vienna and Europe, had arrived.
Due to the shock tactics of Christian battalions like these the Turks lost about 15,000 men who constituted the cream of their cavalry on the field, while the Western allies lost less then 4000 martyred and wounded. Vienna had been delivered in the nick of time, since earlier that same day the Turks had exploded mines that had given them access to the city.
The Turks never recovered from this battle, while the Ottoman Empire survived for another two hundred plus years, from here onwards it was merely a holding action. For Poland, this was her last great moment on centerstage when she saved Europe from Islam.>
http://www.historyofjihad.org/
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 11:28am
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 11:28am
You have absolutely no value whatsoever. You are irrelevant. You speak nonsense. Yes, Larry that means no-sense. Take your miserable life somewhere else. You are part of the problem and will never be part of any solution. Go away and begone with you. You wretch..
Posted by chaoszen at 05/26/2009 @ 12:52pm
The whole point of this has nothing to do with "Islam". The point is that if they can do a sting with these people, they can find a way to do it with you or me. That's what's really scary.
Posted by etherbunny at 05/26/2009 @ 12:57pm
You have absolutely no value whatsoever. You are irrelevant. You speak nonsense. Yes, Larry that means no-sense. Take your miserable life somewhere else. You are part of the problem and will never be part of any solution. Go away and begone with you. You wretch..
Posted by chaoszen at 05/26/2009 @ 12:52pm
So, not only do you despise the ideal of open debate, but you also despise history, unless it fits into your anti-American ideals.
You are so fringe that you cannot even recognize it.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 1:12pm
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 11:26am
Sorry, what IS your term for those 85% of "Muslims" (like the folks in Iraq) who THINK they are Muslims, but really aren't?
"You are so fringe that you cannot even recognize it."----Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 1:12pm
CHAOS, just to determine your "mainstream" status-
1. Do you believe most Muslims aren't "really Muslims"?
2. Do you think Dick Cheney was one of the greatest Vice-Presidents we've ever had?
3. Do you believe that you are a "prophet of God" because some fellow evangelical Christians told you you were?
4. Have you ever fought demons and witches?
Posted by Mask at 05/26/2009 @ 1:33pm
I remember a couple of conservatives criticizing Obama's speech on terrorism/national security last week by saying he didn't even bother to mention the "terror plot busted in Brooklyn." I guess they don't care that he didn't mention it because there really was no terror plot.
Posted by zmann at 05/26/2009 @ 1:39pm
4. Have you ever fought demons and witches?
Posted by Mask at 05/26/2009 @ 1:33pm
Do you understand that millions upon millions of Christians have fought in the spirit with demons and many with witches over the centuries.
Do you understand the power over communities around the world that many witches hold even today?
I confronted witches in South Africa, one who carried a snake in a jar to intimidate the local residents. One who had some women terrified of his powers,several of us confronted and sent away from the village after showing him powerless against the G-d we serve. I have confronted demon possessed people in the US, Philippines, Mexico, the Caribbean, and Taiwan. All of whom practiced witchcraft.
You have no idea what you mock.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 1:48pm
Don't you see they are all macacaju take outs, etherbunny?
(maybe Attaturk was Botstein or vice versa)
The implications of this blatant act of existential terrorism Dreyfuss incompetetently tries to address is, to make anyone who doesn't oppose it complicit in its guilt ... so attention MUST be diverted. They will not repond to the real issue raised by this blackflag false bomb "plot". That is a mark of cowardice that ultimately invites its own destructuion at the hands of this reverse Nazism (they don't break down your door at night; they tell you they have STOPPED someone from breaking down your door at night heheheh).
REPUDIATION <=> PUNISHMENT <=> COLLECTIVE CLEANSING (MACACAJU is a brand of being not necessarily connected, though often paradigmatically identified, with a particular bloodline descent.)
Any real American, Any real Christian -- which already excludes anyone calling themselves by these terms who voted for anti-American/Christian Bush -- must renounce this attempt to bring hatred and death to Muslims and/or Jews, even as Any Real humanity left in the soul of whoever sees the religious depravity in Abu Ghraib defilement of Arab male masculinity knows that's not normal. That it is a condition of eternal shame and judgment on the order of the Armenian massacre -- along with drome bombing wedding parties and pre-emtive white phospherous strikes on Gazans. I'd call it an unsustainable metaphysics, and call upon human individuals to seek soul salvation by gettingaway from it if at all possible. Play your Jeremiah Wright Christ card there, if you've got one. The lultz has taken out your soul twaddle.
Posted by jones at 05/26/2009 @ 2:08pm
You have no idea what you mock.---Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 1:48pm
Sure I do, Larry.
A part-time preacher, part-time insurance salesman/accountant, full-time HYPOCRITE with delusions of grandeur and the abject self-righteousness to accuse others of being "fringe", when his views and claims border on the delusional.
Posted by Mask at 05/26/2009 @ 2:13pm
Sure I do, Larry.
A part-time preacher, part-time insurance salesman/accountant, full-time HYPOCRITE with delusions of grandeur and the abject self-righteousness to accuse others of being "fringe", when his views and claims border on the delusional.
Posted by Mask at 05/26/2009 @ 2:13pm
No, my views are shared by 100's of millions
Gallup Poll May 2004
<Although belief in God seems to have remained relatively stable over the last several decades, Gallup research indicates that belief in some other supernatural beings may be on the rise. In 1994, 72% of Americans said they believed in angels, and that percentage has increased to 78% today. Belief in the devil has increased from 55% in 1990 to 70% in 2004>
http://tinyurl.com/
Earlier 2003 Gallup article
<Sixty-eight percent said in a May 2001* poll that they believe in the devil, 20% said they don't, and 12% said they aren't sure. Majorities of Americans of every political inclination, region, educational level, and age group said they believe in the devil.
Nor does higher education appear to quash belief in the devil. While Americans with postgraduate degrees are less likely to believe in the devil (55%) than college graduates (68%) and those whose education doesn't extend past high school (70%), a majority of postgrads still believe in the devil.
So we might expect belief in the devil to have largely evaporated. It hasn't. Regardless of political belief, religious inclination, education, or region, most Americans believe that the devil exists.>
http://tinyurl.com/oqu2rn
How does that make me fringe, Mask?
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 3:27pm
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 3:27pm "How does that make me fringe, Mask?"
If your poll numbers are right, you may not be fringe, but that doesn't keep you from being a little loony. Give my regards to Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy while you gather your forces to combat Satan!
Posted by raaustin at 05/26/2009 @ 3:59pm
Thank you, The Nation.
For my entire life I have believed that the most aggressive, most prolific slayer of humans based on their choice of faith has been those who call themselves "Christians".
Thanks to antisocialist's documentation, I now see that there are others who do not call themselves "Christians' who are challenging that dedicated lot for the crown.
At last I see that the unbroken string of "Christianity's" success in crushing the heathens on the battlefield goes hand in hand with the lesser efforts of those who call themselves "Muslims" (or Moors or whatever ancient branch of Islam antisocialist wants to lump in with them.)
It's a freaking miracle that some of us are "allowed" by the "Christians" and "Muslims" of this planet to exist, at all, since we mock both "believers" with equal gusto.
Get a life, antisocialist. Trotting out historical data on one religion certainly does not validate the obscene behavior exhibited by the particular madness to which you, yourself, subscribe.
Posted by stupidscript at 05/26/2009 @ 4:09pm
Here's another poll result for you. A 2004 ICM poll found that 71% of American Christians would be willing to die for their religion. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/3518221.stm Posted by raaustin at 05/26/2009 @ 08:03am
Yeah, I read it, but it's complete crap. Most American Christians would KILL for their religion, but dying for it is a completely untestable assumption. Of course they would SAY that. I can almost guarantee that they would RUN if someone started shooting at them. Or maybe a religious war? That would get no support from the rest of the world; maybe about as much as the muslim 'religious wars'.
Posted by ficheye at 05/26/2009 @ 4:23pm
Nor does higher education appear to quash belief in the devil. While Americans with postgraduate degrees are less likely to believe in the devil (55%) than college graduates (68%) and those whose education doesn't extend past high school (70%), a majority of postgrads still believe in the devil.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 3:27pm
Aren't these numbers skewed a little? This isn't a poll of all americans, just ones who 'profess' to be christians. And doubt about the veracity of christians who don't go to church or do much of anything else except wear a cross and flaunt the bible is growing daily. In a book called the 'Fall of the Evangelical Nation' by Christine Wicker ( a former fundamentalist), it is painstakingly documented that many so called christians lie reflexively when asked if they go to church on sundays, and most do not. Many are double and triple counted as members, and many belong to two or three churches. So they lie because they know that's the answer required so their team can win.
And let's tackle your main fantasy: Many churches are dropping the belief in the devil and hell completely. It would seem logical to assume that many people who took the poll don't realize that the very church or churches that they currently belong to don't believe in hell anymore. Because they stopped going to the church. They don't know what the hell is going on, really.
I believe western religion is a sickness that is far, far removed from the teachings of Jesus. Sadly, for the rest of the world, the main tenets of christian belief exist within the pages of a surreal tome called the bible which can conveniently be interpreted at will to mean various things.
Oopps. Gotta go! Rexella and Jack Van Impe are on the tube. We're all gonna die!
Posted by ficheye at 05/26/2009 @ 4:46pm
Posted by ficheye at 05/26/2009 @ 4:46pm
1.The results on belief and level of education was all Americans, not just Christians.
2. I have read Ms Wicker's data and it is seriously flawed to put it kindly.
While there certainly are "mega churches" that inflate their attendance, it is certainly the exception more than the rule.
There are too many internal consequences for falsely reporting this data in most congregations. It just isn't helpful.
Also, it is true that attendance as general rule has been declining in some denominations while increasing in others.
And another trend that Ms Wicker doesn't address is that the home churches are the fastest growing segment of church growth in the US and many other countries. This is the platform that myself and other pastors I know foster. We mostly share a view that smaller congregations are better in a variety of ways and that the home church eliminates the need for large church budgets for buildings and salaries. It is also more representative of the early church.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 5:20pm
Larry, if it was "1000 Christian pro-life extremists out of millions, who believed that killing abortion doctors was justified".....same standard from you, right?
Posted by Mask at 05/26/2009 @ 08:03am
1000 so-called Christian's killing abortion doctors would be absolutely wrong and you know that is and has been my stance.
Plus, there is no scripture that they could cite to justify those actions.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 5:29pm
1. looks like dreyfuss basically called this right in that the fbi should not have crowed so loudly and should be careful about how it uses assets.
2. i wish someone would watch this google video piece and comment on it.
Dispatches - Undercover Mosque
if this is what goes on in mosques i hope the FBI has infiltrated them.
the main one featured in the video was preaching hatred, murder, treason, revolution...
i'm by no means a christian defender or apologist, so that is not my angle. i tend to trend leftward politically.
but based upon my readings of the koran, the hadithas, and the fruit of my curiosity...
having a hard time finding a lot of sympathy for a religion that thinks i should be killed.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/26/2009 @ 5:33pm
How distant these comments about religious hatred are from the issue this (fake bomb plot against Jews framed to abuse Muslims and terrorize the population in general) raises .... is a measure of how dead this political system already is. Now: turned against the Cheezus christians; probably a Jew appropriately pointing out how morally inferior they are to those who have stood with the right wing male strip toturers.
The Nation is the only place I've seen in the MSM that even has the degree of criticism Dreyfuss shows, minimal that it is. Yet, the incident itself is pure neocon nazi Reichstag fire stuff, mutatis mutantis, and deserves what was meted out at Nuremberg. To slide past this attack, which everyone who can is obviously trying to do -- 'move on' the torturers and drone killers always say, smilingly. Move on! -- is the way cowards die, running away from theirs and other's karma. I will never have to live a single day with the terrible guilt and shame that will dog these inhuman beings every minute of every day for the rest of their lives; which for them, who did, or would, pull off this "eager to kill Jews" political shit, should be painful, unremediable, extended indefinitely in this body and accirsed for all time after its gone.
I do so will it.
Amen
Posted by jones at 05/26/2009 @ 6:03pm
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/26/2009 @ 5:33pm
Have you ever been in a mosque in America?
Posted by zmann at 05/26/2009 @ 6:24pm
Posted by zmann at 05/26/2009 @ 6:24pm | ignore this person | warn this person
no. the saudi wahabbist strain seems especially intolerant.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/26/2009 @ 6:44pm
Ibb,
here's some somber food for thought
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 6:46pm
Ibb,
having watched it through, the main discrepancy I saw was the US statistic. It is overstated on the US numbers.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 6:50pm
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 6:50pm | ignore this person | warn this person
that WAS sobering. got some questions about the overall math, but intend to do some research. not saying its bogus, just how i work.
by the way, i thought you handled yourself with class vis-a-vis some posters here who were less than kind. despite our theological differences you are a class act, and your history lesson was solid.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/26/2009 @ 7:04pm
by the way, i thought you handled yourself with class vis-a-vis some posters here who were less than kind. despite our theological differences you are a class act, and your history lesson was solid.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/26/2009 @ 7:04pm
Thanks for your kind words. I just don't understand some of the need for such vile language.
And history is history, whether they like it or not
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 7:31pm
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 7:31pm | ignore this person | warn this person
i mean, lord knows i have spewed my rantage before, but we're all big boys and girls here (well...uh...lol)...
but i try to stick to the substance and have a good time. no need to be so angrily personal. perhaps coming from a background of HEAVY interpersonal conflict i have a hard time holding grudges, an aversion for utterly demonizing those with whom i spar, and try to avoid too much meanness...
unless i sense meanness in my opponent, in which case all bets are off and my mean, sadistic side has an opportunity to come out and play...
but such cruelty is ultimately kindness and i cannot ever remember you sinking to such levels.
oh well...reminds me of the old loony toons cartoon about the wolf and the sheepdog beating the hell out of each other at work then socializing after and before...
but yeah - despite my GENERAL allegiance to my fellow lefties, i see more than a tad of ideologically acceptable historic ignorance in some.
nobody perfect, eh? except me...
;)
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/26/2009 @ 7:42pm
Posted by zmann at 05/26/2009 @ 6:24pm
I have, for my Intro to World Religions class a few years ago. Funny thing was the guy delivering the sermon (hell, I don't even know the proper term...Sheikh? Imam?) was admonishing the Muslims there to be more like the Christians of various denominations who go door to door and elsewhere, spreading their faith. Not a single hateful word about anything.
Posted by zmann at 05/26/2009 @ 8:28pm
Posted by zmann at 05/26/2009 @ 8:28pm | ignore this person | warn this person
hmmm...
who knows?
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/26/2009 @ 8:55pm
larry,
your mere presence here fringifies you.
fringes are way cooler and the food is much better.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/27/2009 @ 12:16am
I'll comment on these above ones because they're finally getting down to where each other and themselves are at, which is where I start. But World Religions? - Sufism? Gurdjieff?
Anything Muslims do against "Americans and Jews" today, as instanced in this NYC fake bomb "plot", can be objectively understood and explained through the historical actions of Reagan, Sharon, and the AIPAC ZPC (Zionist Power Configuration -- J. Petras; now there's a leftist) -- for starters; widening to neoeconazis with kabullah marriage between Madona and Child + Fran Drescher as Sec. of Health and Welfare, Nimoy singing "It's All Good" atop St. Peters Square, while Hanks yanks shorts to pull the Camerlengo's demon out of pickpocket (Ms. Pre-)jeans.
(personal religions note: I believe a third DNA strand has been sent through the Pleadieans to save what is left of human soul on earth before it is eaten by snake brain NMO satanists led by those duped by B-o-o-sh & co.)
to use may know no psychology, philosophy (including metaphysics), psychohistory (inc. fetal origons of experience) or -- most importantly -- psychosemiotics (relating metaphysics to sign use through psychology -- one needs some analytical depth psyche for that
Posted by jones at 05/27/2009 @ 05:07am
Posted by antisocialist at 05/26/2009 @ 3:27pm
How many of those millions claimed they have "FOUGHT witches and demons", Larry...as you have?
How many of those millions claim they are a "prophet of God" because the Pakistani Businessman's Congregation (or whatever) said they were?
You're more fringe than chaoszen could ever dream of.
Posted by Mask at 05/27/2009 @ 08:21am
When it comes to homegrown terrorist plots the left always come across just like those that deny the Holocaust.
The similarites are kind of spooky....
"it never happened", "it was all a put-up job", "just lies and propaganda", etc, etc,...
Kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it? Is there a connection between those that would deny the Holocaust and those that would deny the existence of homegrown islamic terrorism? What kind of agenda might these two groups have in common?
Makes one go hmmmmm.......
Posted by vertigoskippy at 05/27/2009 @ 10:22am
Posted by vertigoskippy at 05/27/2009 @ 10:22am | ignore this person | warn this person
i don't think so. people view the world through their own belief systems, left right, muslim, christian, whatever.
if your opinion of humanity is generally favorable, you are probably less likely to acknowledge threats and wickedness from other people and groups.
this attitude is a luxury.
i think that at the moment, however, many on the left have allowed the mistakes of the previous administration and their hatred of it cloud their judgement in terms of islamic extremism, etc...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/27/2009 @ 10:45am
Posted by vertigoskippy at 05/27/2009 @ 10:22am
So what about Eric Rudolph and Tim McVeigh???
Posted by Mask at 05/27/2009 @ 11:14am
I want the drugs that jones apparently is taking. His posts reflect neural synaptic patterns that adults should not try at home without kids' supervision.
Posted by gren at 05/27/2009 @ 12:31pm
Posted by gren at 05/27/2009 @ 12:31pm | ignore this person | warn this person
yummy yummy word soup...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/27/2009 @ 1:36pm
"Kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it? Is there a connection between those that would deny the Holocaust and those that would deny the existence of homegrown islamic terrorism? What kind of agenda might these two groups have in common?
Makes one go hmmmmm......."
Posted by vertigoskippy at 05/27/2009 @ 10:22am "
Yep -- this is what I mean by Double Reverse (see "gay marriage"). It is called "group psychotic insight" (paradigm: "abortion clinics killing the Unborn are like Nazi gas chambers for Jews." - John Cardinal O'Hare).
Are you suggesting that those who claim there was a holocaust are like those who frame fake hate attacks against Jews in NYC? good god man I don't really hate jews, but this is macacaanything. I'd say "get a grip", but that may be just what's wrong.
Posted by jones at 05/27/2009 @ 1:39pm
Attorneys: Fort Dix Terror Plot 'Planted and Nurtured' by FBI Informanats
FBI insiders concocted and encouraged farcical pizza delivery terror conspiracy
Steve Watson Infowars.net Friday, Dec 12, 2008 - Excerpt
'Lawyers in a case relating to a much vaunted 2007 terror plot have concluded that FBI informants were the key figures behind the operation and that the accused, six foreign-born Muslims, were merely bungling patsies.
Defense attorneys have denied there was any plot, arguing two FBI informants concocted and encouraged the conspiracy because they were being paid and promised legal immigration status, reports the New Jersey Star-Ledger.'
prisonplanet.com
Wow - same modus op.
This one went trial, with convictions on conspiracy charges. What ever happened to entrapment as a defense?
Posted by OneVote at 05/27/2009 @ 5:12pm
Posted by OneVote at 05/27/2009 @ 5:12pm | ignore this person | warn this person
1. prisonplanet.com
2. "Lawyers in a case relating to a much vaunted 2007 terror plot have concluded that FBI informants "
lawyers? related to the case in what way?
3. "Defense attorneys have denied there was any plot"
which is what defense attorneys do...
not picking on you...just critically analyzing.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/27/2009 @ 7:22pm
There's some around the corner from where you are, no doubt, gren, if you think that might help out.
Actually, I HAVE noticed the more pronounced neural circuitry thing since taking up the habit some 45 years ago, trying to figger out what people like Hayden and Dave Horowitz were doing in RAMPARTS, which seemed entirely off the wall, and I wanted to be just like them ...
As for having a kid around -- had to be my own, and it actually went back into recovering memories from the fetal origins of experience, which is where I learned about the Unborn and 'gay marriace' (there were these two guys over in the corner of the womb-surround, see, whispering, doing stuff -- one could see they wouldn't make it to the morning after) and human sacrifice of fetal heroes who tried to get out of the damn thing what with all the oxygen cut off by the poisoous placenta (right wingers heheh).
But it can't take extra neural circuitry to see macacaju here:
"Kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it? Is there a connection between those that would deny the Holocaust and those that would deny the existence of homegrown islamic terrorism? What kind of agenda might these two groups have in common? "
(please note use of "homegrown". All the hip news reports made sure to include that. Homegrown. Right down here at Newburgh! - where I, in fact, attended a People's party conference for Barry Commoner back in '72. THAT requires neural circuit of snake brain satanic bibble proportions to get imo .. don't you think? )
Posted by jones at 05/28/2009 @ 07:33am
Posted by RobertDreyfuss at 05/25/2009 @ 5:13pm
Mr Dreyfuss, Anti is basically on a religious crusade of his own. He has no tolerance for any religious beliefs counter to his own and has no problem whatsoever of entrapping American citizens as you pointed out nor does he have any problem with torturing and wire tapping American citizens if they fall into his "questionable"category.
There is no discussion with people like Anti because his mind is already made up. These people are guilty before they commit a crime and do not deserve due process of the law. In short, these people are sub-humans to him innocent or not.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 05/28/2009 @ 07:59am
which is what defense attorneys do...
not picking on you...just critically analyzing.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/27/2009 @ 7:22pm | ignore this person | warn this person
well - it took the jury 5 1/2 days to reach a verdict on the latest prosecution of the Fort Dix terrorists - and so one might naturally conclude from the length of jury deliberations, that defense attorney arguments resonated with one or more of the jurors.
Posted by OneVote at 05/28/2009 @ 08:52am
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/27/2009 @ 7:22pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Ib - how about NY Times....more credible to you than prisonplanet?
'The investigation began in January 2006, after an electronics store clerk notified the F.B.I. that one of the men had brought in a video for duplication that showed 10 young men firing assault weapons at an outdoor range and shouting "God is Great" in Arabic. Among the 10 men in the video were the three Duka brothers and Mr. Shnewer.'
'The jury deliberated for six days before returning its verdict against the defendants: three brothers -- Shain, Eljvir and Dritan Duka -- and Mohamad Shnewer and Serdar Tatar'
'Jurors declined to comment about their verdict but asked Judge Kugler to read their statement saying in part, "This has been one of the most difficult things that we have ever had to do." '
5 Are Convicted of Conspiring to Attack Fort Dix, NY Times, By PAUL VON ZIELBAUER and JON HURDLE Published: December 22, 2008
Posted by OneVote at 05/28/2009 @ 09:03am
Posted by OneVote at 05/28/2009 @ 09:03am | ignore this person | warn this person
i'll look into it some more.
i am not suprised the case was difficult for the jurors to decide. fine lines, and all.
its kind of like threatening to kill the president. you can later say "aw jeez...i wasn't really gonna DO it..."
but not an excuse. the threat is the violation of the law, just as the plotting of the terrorist action is the violation.
just because the plotters are stupid, lazy, sloppy, or half ass (thankfully) makes them no less guilty of conspiracy.
stupid, lazy, sloppy, or half ass folk cause all sorts of misery in this world. if nets are cast and a few pathetic fish get caught...so what?
if there were no sting operations would there be nobody plotting to blow things up? good question. i can't answer it, but i'm comfortable with erring on the safe side, myself.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/28/2009 @ 09:37am
stupid, lazy, sloppy, or half ass folk cause all sorts of misery in this world. ...Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/28/2009 @ 09:37am
Reminds me of a line out of Animal House. "Fat, drunk and stupid are no way to go through life son." This, of course, was quoted by the infamous dean Wormer.
Have you ever watched the movie W. Kind of has a familiar ring to it less the fat part. But stupid, lazy, sloppy, half ass and of course drunk fit in nicely as the movie points out.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 05/28/2009 @ 11:22am
tell jones
synchronicity strikes. 1976 was my first presidential election vote, and I voted for Barry Commoner, who I think was running on the Citizens Party line.
Posted by gren at 05/28/2009 @ 4:24pm
I have recently read several books that deal mainly with terrorism. "Blood That Cries Out From the Earth", by James W. Jones, is an excellent an work on the subject, I highly recommend it. I think that it is a shame that the more that we as a nation know about terrorism, the more we are able to provoke it. The Arab terrorist, is usually a recent convert, or born-again, same as in home grown Christian terrorist, who bombs abortion clinics, or shoots abortion doctors or nurses. Many of the cases that the FBI makes, are made by constant provocation, these informants, are paid for their work, and they are paid well. Before I left the U. S. I lived across a private road from an informant, one of the things that he did was to convince people, that one could make a good living on the other side of the law, for his life style was part of this con, after all he was living good. The things that he and the FBI did to me trying to entrap me outrageous, some are even beyond belief. I would have to guess that I had over 100 flat tires, due to nails , that he would put in the tires on my auto, always drivers rear. From 1989, through 2004 I would have to estimate over ten thousand Pepperballs impacted the roof of my house. The snitch had sky lights installed in his roof, on the back side of his roof behind the crest where he could fire Pepperballs at my home without me being able to capture this activity on video. Pepperballs are big and slow therefore they travel in a rather steep arch, like a artillery shell, and can be shot over a object that acts as a blind. I think that all of the provocation was mainly because they wanted to force me to move, and they were willing to set me up in a crime in order to do this.
Posted by berlinfoto at 05/28/2009 @ 11:43pm