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RedditBy the now, it's maddeningly familiar. A scary terrorist plot is announced. Then it's revealed that the suspects are a hapless bunch of ne'er-do-wells or run-of-the-mill thugs without the slightest connection to any terrorists at all, never mind to Al Qaeda. Finally, the last piece of the puzzle: the entire plot is revealed to have been cooked up by a scummy government agent-provocateur.
I've seen this movie before.
In this case, the alleged perps -- Onta Williams, James Cromitie, David Williams, and Laguerre Payen -- were losers, ex-cons, drug addicts. Al Qaeda they're not. Without the assistance of the agent who entrapped them, they would never have dreamed of committing political violence, nor would they have had the slightest idea about where to acquire plastic explosives or a Stinger missile. That didn't stop prosecutors from acting as if they'd captured Osama bin Laden himself. Noted the Los Angeles Times:
Prosecutors called it the latest in a string of homegrown terrorism plots hatched after Sept. 11."It's hard to envision a more chilling plot," Assistant U.S. Atty. Eric Snyder said in court Thursday. He described all four suspects as "eager to bring death to Jews."
Actually, it's hard to imagine a stupider, less competent, and less important plot. The four losers were ensnared by a creepy FBI agent who hung around the mosque in upstate New York until he found what he was looking for. Here's the New York Times account:
Salahuddin Mustafa Muhammad, the imam at the mosque where the authorities say the confidential informant first encountered the men, said none of the men were active in the mosque. ...Mr. Cromitie was there last June, and he met a stranger.
He had no way of knowing that the stranger's path to the mosque began in 2002, when he was arrested on federal charges of identity theft. He was sentenced to five years' probation, and became a confidential informant for the F.B.I. He began showing up at the mosque in Newburgh around 2007, Mr. Muhammad said.
The stranger's behavior aroused the imam's suspicions. He invited other worshipers to meals, and spoke of violence and jihad, so the imam said he steered clear of him.
"There was just something fishy about him," Mr. Muhammad said. Members "believed he was a government agent."
Mr. Muhammad said members of his congregation told him the man he believed was the informant offered at least one of them a substantial amount of money to join his "team."
So a creepy thug buttonholes people at a mosque, foaming at the mouth about violence and jihad? This is law enforcement? Just imagine if someone did this at a local church, or some synagogue. And the imam says the people "believed he was a government agent."
Preying on these losers, none of whom were apparently actual Muslims, the "confidential informant" orchestrated the acquisition of a disabled Stinger missile to shoot down military planes and cooked up a wild scheme about attacking a Jewish center in the Bronx.
The only one of the four suspects who appears to have aroused any suspicion was Payen, a Haitian native who attended the Newburgh mosque. Assistant imam Hamid Rashada said his dishevelment and odd behavior disturbed some members, said the assistant imam, Hamid Rashada.When Payen appeared in court, defense attorney Marilyn Reader described him as "intellectually challenged" and on medication for schizophrenia. The Associated Press said that when he was asked if he understood the proceedings, Payen replied: "Sort of."
Despite the pompous statements from Mayor Bloomberg of New York and other politicians, including Representative Peter King, the whole story is bogus. The four losers may have been inclined to violence, and they may have harbored a virulent strain of anti-Semitism. But it seems that the informant whipped up their violent tendencies and their hatred of Jews, cooked up the plot, incited them, arranged their purchase of weapons, and then had them busted. To ensure that it made headlines, the creepy informant claimed to be representing a Pakistani extremist group, Jaish-e Muhammad, a bona fide terrorist organization. He wasn't, of course.
It is disgusting and outrageous that the FBI is sending provocateurs into mosques.
The headlines reinforce the very fear that Dick Cheney is trying to stir up. The story strengthens the narrative that the "homeland" is under attack. It's not. As I've written repeatedly, since 9/11 not a single American has even been punched in the nose by an angry Muslim, as far as I can tell. Plot after plot -- the destruction of the Brooklyn Bridge! bombing the New York Subways! taking down the Sears Tower! bombing the Prudential building in Newark! -- proved to be utter nonsense.
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Robert Dreyfuss
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"they would never have dreamed of committing political violence"
I never realized, Mr Dreyfuss, that mental telepathy was one of your skills???
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 07:58am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercover_Mosque
well we can debate the legality of sting operations but for the most part the courts say they are ok..
so the men were stupid, eh? in fact most hardened criminals who get caught do in fact suffer from low IQ's. frustration with navigating the world often leads to criminality of all sorts with such people, regardless of the crime, and since they are not too bright, they are more likely to get caught.
just not feeling the love here...
i would say that if someone comes up to you trying to recruit you into a violent terrorist organization to shoot down aircraft and blow up synagogues and you go along with it and end up arrested and rotting in jail...
PROBABLY should never have gone along with the plot in the first place, you know?
at least they will get fed and have a place to pass out and be a lot less likely to commit other crimes motivated by less ideological reasons...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 08:22am
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 08:22am
Mr Dreyfuss, is of course, merely presenting the EQUALLY false "mirror image" of Cheney....that of "Nothing wrong here. Nothing happening. FBI 'entrapping' people. There are zero, zip, nada extremists in the US!"
Intense naivete versus the Right's intense paranoia.
Unfortunately THAT lends fodder to them as "Once again, showing how the Left are dupes and won't protect us!".
In his own way, Mr Dreyfuss does MORE damage than Cheney, who atleast only retains a die-hard 30% of Hard Right support...while most of the country doesn't like the Emperor Palpatine figure.
But Mr Dreyfuss' attitude is then casually (if falsely) linked to everybody who disagrees with Cheney and to the Obama Administration as "more liberal pacifism and love of the terr'urrists!"
(as we will no doubtedly soon here from our local Right-wing posters!)
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 08:53am
read the new york times article in its entirety.
mr. dreyfuss cherry picked his quotes and i'm not sure a reading of the entire article (just 2 pages) conveys the same sentiments at all.
example as a follow up...
at least they will get fed and have a place to pass out and be a lot less likely to commit other crimes motivated by less ideological reasons...
like...
"David Williams, who lately had grown a beard and taken to reading the Koran on slow nights at a steakhouse job, was described as particularly violent by prosecutors on Thursday. When the plan to buy guns from a woman in Newburgh fell through, it was David Williams who quickly improvised, arranging to buy a gun from a man he described as a "supreme Blood gang leader" in Brooklyn, Mr. Snyder said. After buying the gun in the company of the informant, David Williams said he would have shot the gang leader if he were alone with him, and kept his $700."
or...
"Mr. Payen, described as a nervous, quiet sort who took medication for schizophrenia or a bi-polar disorder, was unemployed and living in squalor in Newburgh. His last arrest, in 2002, was for assault, after he drove around the Rockland County village of Monsey, firing a BB gun out of the window -- striking two teens -- and snatching two purses. A friend who visited Mr. Payen's apartment on Thursday said it contained bottles of urine, and raw chicken on the stovetop."
this guy needs to be institutionalized for his own and other's safety regardless...or...
"Onta Williams had been addicted to cocaine since he was a teenager, according to his lawyer, Sol Lesser, at his sentencing in 2003. Mr. Cromitie has spent 12 years in prison, most recently for selling drugs to undercover officers behind a school."
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 08:54am
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 08:53am | ignore this person | warn this person
pretty astute analysis, as usual. i'm just looking at these guys' charcters and wondering what kind of sympathy is expected?
shall we march in support of the poor, stupid "newburgh 4" whose stupidity led to them getting thrown in jail for plotting to kill people?
jeez...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 08:59am
This whole situation reads like a cartoon version of the former administration's 'modus operandi'...
They were better at creating enemies... and 'enemy combatants'... than defeating them.
Just like in Orwell's 1984...;^)
...because the 'issue' was actually... the total subjugation of the US... and at this, they succeeded.
Until now.
Posted by ttr at 05/22/2009 @ 09:23am
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 08:59am
Well, the Other Side is pretty silly too.
Despite all the RW blog attempts to boost Cheney, do they REALLY expect us to believe that his "Vindication Tour" would lead to...
a speech at the 2012 GOP Convention???
Not likely. They're not THAT stupid, dishonest about his "growing popularity" and "how right he is"...but not stupid!
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 09:34am
Dreyfuss, like other ideological partisans, immediately judges the situation despite the lack of facts, by simply making assumptions -- he alleges as if it were fact that it was the undercover agent who cooked up the plot and incited these four innocent naifs. Dreyfuss may prove to be correct or he may prove to be wrong -- but doesn't reason require us to know the actual facts before we leap to conclusions. In other words, if Dreyfuss had merely speculated that this might be a matter of entrapment, instead of concluding it to be so, he would be contributing to a discussion and understanding. But by jumping the gun, he merely reveals his own prejudices. Sigh.
Posted by gren at 05/22/2009 @ 09:42am
Certainly the US is already full of evil characters just waiting for the right moment to wreak violence on innocent targets.
But instead of rooting them out and actually making our home safer, we infiltrate mosques and coach losers on how to be just dangerous enough to be a PR score.
Despite the tough talk of the Cheney/Bush/neocon types, we have become a nation of frightened little pussies.
Reject the fearmongerers.
Posted by drhammer at 05/22/2009 @ 09:46am
"fearmongers"
Posted by drhammer at 05/22/2009 @ 09:48am
mask, can you at least concede a few of mr. dreyfuss's claims? if so, which claims will you concede?
Posted by darladoon at 05/22/2009 @ 10:17am
So a creepy thug buttonholes people at a mosque, foaming at the mouth about violence and jihad? This is law enforcement? Just imagine if someone did this at a local church, or some synagogue. And the imam says the people "believed he was a government agent."
Sure Dreyfuss...'cause we all know that if you send undercover agents into churches and synagogues, you are likely to find people who can't wait to kill Muslims; they're simply waiting for an undercover agent to give them that final push...
Sorry, but this is the most pathetic thread you've posted todate.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/22/2009 @ 10:21am
BTW Mask,
It won't surprise you how proud I was of Cheney and his speech yesterday.
While Obama often came off yesterday as whiney, Cheney reminded the nation what mature and informed leadership offers the nation in maintaining eternal vigilance against those who would destroy us.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/22/2009 @ 10:22am
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 09:34am | ignore this person | warn this person
despite my lack of sympathy for the poor persecuted, moronic, would be terrorists...
it seems the FBI has crowed a bit too loudly over this for its own good. it WAS like shooting fish in a barrel, and not, in my opinion, the tip of an all encompassing, eminent threat of an iceberg.
but it does serve notice to more competant would be terrorist types that the US government is hunting for them.
good.
an ounce of prevention...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 10:30am
against those who would destroy us.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/22/2009 @ 10:22am
cheney made a speech about goldman sachs?
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2009 @ 10:32am
ibble,
richard perle is looking for you.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2009 @ 10:34am
i think the american people would be better served if the FBI sent agents into high schools and post offices.
to get the real terrorists.
THEY'LL EAT YOUR CHILDREN!
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2009 @ 10:35am
Why does the FBI run sting ops to catch morons?
To keep the fear up, the heat hot & their high budget requests for "terror fighting" guaranteed granted.
Posted by sloper at 05/22/2009 @ 10:37am
Kudos, Mr. Dreyfuss!
For upholding typical Leftists' assessement of the GWOT.....anything that got stopped, like this Gang-of-4 and the Jersey Pizza Boys, and NO innocents died, have got to be "Bogus"!
Well done.....and MASK gets 50% credit on his "analysis"!
Posted by Happy at 05/22/2009 @ 10:51am
"While Obama often came off yesterday as whiney, Cheney reminded the nation what mature and informed leadership offers the nation in maintaining eternal vigilance against those who would destroy us"
antisocialist, can you tell us (specifically) which policies of cheney's that obama has reversed or ceased?
and please, don't talk about the "legal memos" or the "torture photos."
tell us, speficially, which counter-terrorism policies of mr. cheney that obama has ceased or reversed.
i'm waiting.....
Posted by darladoon at 05/22/2009 @ 10:58am
Posted by darladoon at 05/22/2009 @ 10:17am
No, DD, doesn't work that way. Somebody can claim "The Sun is a bright object...yellowish in color...and in the sky"...
and then add "and I think that Sun People are living on it" and you don't just "concede the earlier points"!
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 11:28am
Posted by antisocialist at 05/22/2009 @ 10:22am
Well, that's great, Larry.
Only have TWO questions-
1. So, does that mean you'd like to see Dick Cheney speaking at the 2012 Republican National Convention, in a prime-time address?
2. How did the FBI catch those two guys...
without waterboarding anybody?!?!??!?!??
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 11:30am
mask, be quiet please. let's let anti answer the question. it's a fairly simple one....
Posted by darladoon at 05/22/2009 @ 11:33am
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 10:30am
As with most things, a "Sensible Middle" approach works. Not the "Round them all up and throw 'em in Gitmo...we'll sort out guilt later" of Cheney...
or the "It's all entrapment of poor dumb ex-cons...there are no extremists" of Robert Dreyfuss.
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 11:34am
a self-fulfilling prophesy.....
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2009 @ 11:40am
tell us, speficially, which counter-terrorism policies of mr. cheney that obama has ceased or reversed.
i'm waiting.....
Posted by darladoon at 05/22/2009 @ 10:58am
Interesting response. It begs the question; does this mean that you now support the policies of Bush/Cheney?
But to name a couple
1. Enhanced interrogation techniques
2. Gitmo
3. Changing the name from war on terror to "Overseas contingency operations"
4. No longer acts of terrorism
<But, consider this new word play from DHS concerning real terrorist acts (Muslim extremists who actually attacked the United States out of hate, bent on destruction). Those will no longer be called "terrorists," or "acts of terrorism." They are now to be called "man-caused disasters." According to an interview Napolitano gave to a German magazine, the new phrase "demonstrates that we want to move away from the politics of fear, toward a policy of being prepared for all risks that occur.">
Man-caused disasters? Political correctness run amuck.
4. Changing the procedures for the Military Tribunals to introduce more civil court procedures. This is the antithesis of even the Geneva Accords.
this includes extending Habeas to Gitmo Prisoners which is outside of all international law on prisoners of war (which is certainly more reflective of who they are then as criminals).
5. plans to transfer some Gitmo prisoners to US Courts.
That said, I have previously stated that I'm pleased that Obama has not fully yielded to the howls from the left and still maintains at least a form of the successful policies instituted by the Bush Administration in the War on Terror.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/22/2009 @ 11:45am
Only have TWO questions-
1. So, does that mean you'd like to see Dick Cheney speaking at the 2012 Republican National Convention, in a prime-time address?
2. How did the FBI catch those two guys...
without waterboarding anybody?!?!??!?!??
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 11:30am
1. Yes, I would. I've said repeatedly that I believe Cheney to be the greatest VP the nation has ever had. My view remains with events like yesterday. New CNN poll prior to yesterday's speech shows Cheney rising 8 points in his favorables to 37%. And with speeches like yesterdays, he will continue to rise.
As to your 2nd question, it's a bogus question.
1. Who has ever said that the only way we get intel is from interrogations of detainees?
2. No one who supports the enhanced interrogation techniques has ever said or even suggested that they are applicable in every instance. As Cheney reminded Americans yesterday, those techniques were applied very selectively with only a few detainees when it was determined that no other methods (contrary to Ali Soufan) were effective.
What the left has attempted is to portray these techniques as having been widely used with vast numbers of detainees. This lie is used to try and manipulate public opinion with an obvious falsehood.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/22/2009 @ 11:51am
Posted by antisocialist at 05/22/2009 @ 11:51am
Cool, Larry. There's a moment of bipartisanship, I'm sure you'll find here at "TN".
We would ALL like to see Dick Cheney giving a prominent speech at the 2012 GOP Convention....just not for the exact same reasons.
I think, though, you might find a BIT of resistance from....some Republicans!
BTW, how high up in approvals do you think Cheney will go? 50%, 65%? Your 37% while good (and only ONE poll) doesn't really break out much past the conservative base.
Oh, and one other question...this is the SAME "Dick Cheney" who told us that the Iraq War would only cost $50 Billion....that Saddam had re-constituted his nuclear program and and 1000s of tons of WMDs....and that the insurgency was in its "last throes" in 2005, right?
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 11:58am
Posted by darladoon at 05/22/2009 @ 11:33am
Uh, DD....you asked ME.
"mask, can you at least concede a few of mr. dreyfuss's claims? if so, which claims will you concede?"----Posted by darladoon at 05/22/2009 @ 10:17am
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 12:01pm
without waterboarding anybody?!?!??!?!??
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 11:30am
waterboarding?
child's play:
"Clive Stafford Smith, who has represented 50 Guantánamo prisoners, including 31 still imprisoned there, has seen the IRF teams up close. "They're goons," he says. "They've played a huge role."
While much of the "torture debate" has emphasized the so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques" defined by the twisted legal framework of the Office of Legal Council memos, IRF teams in effect operate at Guantánamo as an extrajudicial terror squad that has regularly brutalized prisoners outside of the interrogation room, gang beating them, forcing their heads into toilets, breaking bones, gouging their eyes, squeezing their testicles, urinating on a prisoner's head, banging their heads on concrete floors and hog-tying them -- sometimes leaving prisoners tied in excruciating positions for hours on end."
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2009 @ 12:08pm
"They brought their pepper spray and held him down. They held both of his eyes open and sprayed it into his eyes and later took a towel soaked in pepper spray and rubbed it in his eyes.
"Omar could not see from either eye for two weeks, but he gradually got sight back in one eye.
"He's totally blind in the right eye. I can report that his right eye is all white and milky -- he can't see out of it because he has been blinded by the U.S. in Guantánamo."
In fact, Stafford Smith says his blindness was caused by a combination of the pepper spray and the fact that an IRF team member pushed his finger into Deghayes' eye.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2009 @ 12:10pm
posted by ROBERT DREYFUSS on 05/22/2009 @ 07:56am
A breath of fresh air, your writing today. This "counter-terrorism" bust is, at best, a very bad made-for-TV PR piece for the FBI, who want to look like they are "protecting us from terrorists".
Posted by syfriendly at 05/22/2009 @ 12:12pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2009 @ 12:08pm
Come on FZ, you KNOW what guys like Larry, SJCHER, HAPP, etc. will say when THAT stuff comes out.
"Okay, so what? We tortured a FEW obviously-guilty-or-they-wouldn't-be-in-Gitmo Mooos'lims. It 'saved lives'!!!!!....Can't prove it, but Dick Cheney says so, and how can you not trust him?!"!""!?"
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 12:12pm
" ... As I've written repeatedly, since 9/11 not a single American has even been punched in the nose by an angry Muslim, as far as I can tell ..." --- Dreyfuss
Incorrect - about a year ago, an angry (deranged) Muslim cab driver walked into a Jewish Federation center in Seattle and opened fire, killing one and injuring others. The guy was certifiable and has been locked up.
Posted by syfriendly at 05/22/2009 @ 12:19pm
"1. Enhanced interrogation techniques"
wrong, bush stopped using waterboarding long before he left office.
"2. Gitmo"
wrong. gitmo is still open. in fact, senate just voted 90-6 to keep it open. when it closes i will concede this particular point.
"3. Changing the name from war on terror to "Overseas contingency operations""
wtf?!
"4. Changing the procedures for the Military Tribunals to introduce more civil court procedures. This is the antithesis of even the Geneva Accords."
again, WRONG. obama has not introduced any civil court procedures for detainees. obama can detain and imprison indefinitely anyone he wants. and detainees cannot challenge their imprisonment.
"5. plans to transfer some Gitmo prisoners to US Courts."
US prisons, not necessarily US courts. and even if suspects are able to challenge their detention, what is wrong witht that?
antisocialist, educate yourself, my friend. please, educate yourself.
Posted by darladoon at 05/22/2009 @ 12:20pm
Regardless of the obvious PR element in this latest "thwarting" of a terror attack within the USA, I'm sure dedicated agents remain in place in Islamic institutions throughout the country ready to blow the whistle in defense of the nation.
But there is another struggle going on within the boundaries of this nation & it might be termed a "war" in a sense. I'm referring to those who want to perpetuate greed & deprivation both here & abroad.
For those of us who wish to reverse this in a peaceful manner, I would call it the War on the Terrible.
Posted by Sorelish at 05/22/2009 @ 12:40pm
This not the first, and won't be the time, our law enforcement will appeal to the lowest common denominator to inflame the sense of fear in America. Enticing those with low IQ to commit violence is a scheme that is honed to perfection by the FBI. The stunt of entrapping mentally limited individuals can work as well around churches and synagogues if tried with the same vigor. Eight years of fear mongering has led the nation to two costly wars; to the delight of the Military Industrial Complex. Domestically, the drought in the, Bush-Era's much bragged about, home-grown terror is threatening the relevancy of the Patriot Act. And thus, fabricating such incident is essential to justify the continuous violation of our civil liberties.
Real, premeditated home-grown terrorism is not new to America. The Jewish Defense League (JDL) is a hard core domestic terror group co-founded by the American/Israeli Fanatic Rabbi Meyer Kahane in 1969. According to the FBI record, the JDL has committed 18 domestic terror incidents, resulting in 7 death and 22 injuries. The most notable was planting a bomb at the office of the Palestinian American Alex Odeh which resulted in his death. However, to the FBI, the JDL is a sensitive political issue which compels the FBI to sit on its hands; while pursuing easy targets among the mentally impaired.
Posted by CripThink at 05/22/2009 @ 12:51pm
What an asinine rant. I'm appalled that The Nation would allow such drivel.
Posted by cj21 at 05/22/2009 @ 1:10pm
The FBI has not given the JDL a free pass, and no Jewish group condones JDL lawlessness.
On December 12, 2001, JDL leader Irv Rubin and a member named Earl Krugel were charged with planning a terror attack against the office of Arab-American Congressman Darrell Issa.[16] Authorities claimed that the two also planned attacks on the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City, California. Rubin maintained that he was innocent. On November 4, 2002, at the federal Metropolitan Detention Center in Los Angeles, California, Rubin fell 18 feet to the concrete floor below. He was in a coma for 10 days before dying on November 13. The prison's official report was that he slashed his own neck before throwing himself over the railing.[17] Many have noted that this was an unusual method of committing suicide, and although the incident has been ruled a suicide, some of Rubin's supporters have alleged murder.[18][19] On February 4, 2003, Earl Krugel pled guilty to conspiracy and weapons charges stemming from the terrorist plot, and was expected to serve up to 20 years in prison. He was murdered by another inmate while at the Federal Correctional Institution in north Phoenix, Arizona on November 4, 2005.
Posted by gren at 05/22/2009 @ 1:18pm
Entrapment -- FBI creating lifetime terrorists
Today the intelligent middleclass FBI announced that they had trained four slow thinking laboring men how to be terrorists, fooled them into planting what they thought was a bomb, and with an authentic looking anti-aircraft gun taught them how to shoot down airplanes.
Lets see now, a year long sting operation involving five officers and at a total cost of about a million, and all to teach four youth how to vent their anger in violence. Sleeper terrorists perhaps, depending on how good was the thought control, for after cooking behind bars from ten to twenty years we could see a violent and horrific end to such horrific government stupidity.
Four American youth with no record of violence or ties to a terrorist group, and a burning desire to see visible signs of progress toward Israel not bombing babies in Gaza. Surely they should have been thought controlled in the reverse direction.
A better way, have the FBI train activists not terrorists. For one officer at a cost of $100 to tax payers could have spent a day teaching them how to differ openly against the rich and powerful, could have given them a free ride to a federal building, and could have given them posters to carry and flyers to hand out. Unless of course the goal of government is to increase violence, so that those most powerful may continue to be multinational capitals most rich.
Posted by Alabama.John at 05/22/2009 @ 1:34pm
antisocialist, educate yourself, my friend. please, educate yourself.
Posted by darladoon at 05/22/2009 @ 12:20pm
Darla, it appears you need education and at least to keep up with current events.
"1. Enhanced interrogation techniques"
wrong, bush stopped using waterboarding long before he left office.-
But retained the authority to use them again if necessary. Obama announced that he was changing that policy.
"2. Gitmo"
The subject is Obama's foreign policy, not the response of Congress. Obama signed the executive order to close Gitmo on his 1st day in office.
"3. Changing the name from war on terror to "Overseas contingency operations""
wtf?!
Well, most of us said the same thing. The Obama Admin says that they don't want to inflame emotions by using terms like terrorism or war on terror. I noticed you didn't respond to my fav new Obama term "man caused disasters" rather than acts of terrorism.
"4. You are wrong Darla as released by the White House on May 19
<Today, the Department of Defense will be seeking additional continuances in several pending military commission proceedings. We will seek more time to allow us time to reform the military commission process. The Secretary of Defense will notify the Congress of several changes to the rules governing the commissions.>
"5. plans to transfer some Gitmo prisoners to US Courts."
Obama's May 21st speech
<The president laid out a five-part strategy to draw down the population at Guantánamo.
First, detainees who can be tried in the civilian federal court system for alleged crimes will be transferred to the US for trial. The first such transfer will be Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani to stand trial in New York
Posted by antisocialist at 05/22/2009 @ 1:35pm
Rabbi Kahane, the co-founder of the JDL, moved to Israel in 1971 where he became member of the Israeli Knesset and a folk hero. In addition to encouraging his followers in the US to continue their terror campaign, Kahane advocated transferring all Palestinians out of Israel. Until he was killed in 1990, Rabbi Kahane, the leader of the JDL terror group, was allowed to keep his US Passport.
Many Terrorists members of the JDL have sought refuge in Israel after committing crimes or convicted by the US. The FBI knew that many of these criminals were hiding on Jewish settlements on the West Bank, but refused to act for political expediency. No JDL member was ever convicted for the murder of Alex Odeh.
Posted by CripThink at 05/22/2009 @ 1:38pm
because fundamentally misleading propoganda should not be allowed to linger -- Israel banned Rabbi Kahane's political party many years ago. His was a trivial political freakshow that Israel closed down.
Posted by gren at 05/22/2009 @ 1:46pm
Rabbi Kahane and JDL are as relevant to this discussion as little green men in flying mushrooms.
Posted by gren at 05/22/2009 @ 1:47pm
Rabbi Kahane and JDL are as relevant to this discussion as little green men in flying mushrooms.
Posted by gren at 05/22/2009 @ 1:47pm
The Jewish Defense League (JDL) is classified by the FBI as domestic terrorist group; there is no Islamic Domestic Terror League on the FBI roster. When the topic is domestic terrorism, it is important to point out who are the real domestic terrorists. It is so gratifying that the Dreyfuss Report is not guarded by a Zionist editor.
Posted by CripThink at 05/22/2009 @ 2:01pm
prophets don't need education.
their knowledge is divine!
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2009 @ 2:07pm
YOGI THE BEAR CAUGHT IN TERRORIST PLOT!
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2009 @ 2:09pm
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 11:34am | ignore this person | warn this person
i agree. i tend to be slightly more draconian here than i might be elsewhere. my oppositional defianct dedication to finding or dragging back to a center, i guess.
but lord knows some on the left here a david horowitz and autonomically fly to the opposite position. i feel a duty to pound folks over the head here on this issue.
just because horowitz says it don't make it wrong...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 2:10pm
I have little doubt that the FBI closely monitors, if it has not in fact infiltrated, the JDL. It would be irresponsibility of the highest degree if the FBI did not monitor, if not infiltrate, Islamic communities identified as attracting and promoting jihidist support. The idea that mosques (or shuls or churches) should be safe sanctuaries for those planning criminal acts is quaint but misguided. It is not paranoid to investigate whether there are domestic Moslems planning criminal activity in support of jihad. Whether the FBI had information identifying the Newburgh mosque as a suspect community I don't know and neither do you. Whether these guys were legally entrapped or not, I don't know and neither do you. Do I trust the government. No. Is there a possibility that there could be a bombing by exremist elements in the It's a delicate balance. No perfect stance.
Posted by gren at 05/22/2009 @ 2:14pm
all this typing and nothing happened.
and yet, when some kid goes to school and kills many, nary a word.
the terrorist lies within.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2009 @ 2:20pm
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 2:10pm
And most of the distrust obviously rests on the Right, not Left.
Again, we have Cheney on his "Vindication Tour" acting like he's an "expert in defending America", when he's the SAME GUY who told us Iraq would only cost $50 Billion....that Saddam was upto his armpits in nerve gas and nuclear centifuges...and the insurgency was in its "last throes"....in 2005!
But Robert Dreyfuss and the embrace of a stereotype of the Left doesn't help either.
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 2:23pm
tell frosty zoom Maybe this arrest is BS, maybe not. But "nothing happened" is the wrong standard. We want arrests to be made before, not after, something happens.
Posted by gren at 05/22/2009 @ 2:24pm
Judge Questioning the Prosecution: "Let me get this straight. An FBI informant completely lured these four men ("losers, ex-cons, drug addicts") into a wide-ranging plot, who any rational person would say could have never come up with (let alone followed through with) the scenarios on their own. Correct?" Prosecution: "Correct." Judge: "Further, is it also true that the informant provided the means to everything - the idea, money, ways of getting the weapons, and instructions on how to implement all the plans?" Prosecution: Uh, also correct, your Honor." Judge: "And finally, did the FBI make additional plans to release this story to the public and major media as a "Terrorist Plot" that was "Busted" - well before the unsuspecting men were ever arrested?" Prosecution: "Ah, uh, yes. Is this a problem?" Judge: "These men shall be set free - immediately! They will carry no record of their arrests - other than the substantial reparations you will pay them. Case Closed!" www.SeaClearly.com
Posted by SeaClearly at 05/22/2009 @ 2:27pm
Reading some of these comments, I think a lot of people miss the point. In this case, the focus of attention should be on the fact that the 4 losers who got arrested were not going to be terrorists on their own, ever, the fact that the "informant" apparently behind the bust was more of an operator than a simple information source who ran a good part of the operation, and himself was a plea-bargained criminal being used by the FBI, and the fact that the FBI wants to look like it is "fighting terrorism".
These four idiots should probably have been left to their own devices, where they would not have been able to attempt to locate and acquire an anti-aircraft missile on their own. Those aren't sold at Target or the local gun shop, and these fools had to try twice to buy a pistol between the four of them.
The informant/operator is a very shady figure in all this.
Posted by syfriendly at 05/22/2009 @ 2:30pm
Syfriendly is right (and Sy, I stand corrected on the Seattle incident). The issue here is not that these four guys are sympathetic or innocent, it's that there is an enormous gap between the global War on Terrorism promoted by Cheney and Co. and the relatively small and manageable terrorism problem that actually exists here at home. Maybe these guys were a threat and maybe they weren't but whatever threat they posed is a minor, manageable, law enforcement issue. It has nothing to do with the War on Terrorism. It is far more likely that had the FBI stayed out of that mosque, these guys would have grumbled about Jews and other "enemies" and then robbed a liquor store or something. Relax, everybody.
Posted by RobertDreyfuss at 05/22/2009 @ 2:44pm
Again, Mr Dreyfuss, when did mental telepathy and clairvoyance become your forte'?
"No big deal...they'd have robbed a liquor store or something. Relax."?
Isn't that just the mirror image of Cheney's "They'd have bought a nuke from Saddam and blown up Manhatten"?
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 2:56pm
Now, to hit the Other Side...
a fascinating bit of video from Dick Cheney talking at the American Enterprise Institute.....no....not the other day....
in 1994! And YES...he WAS right back then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnV4tMvI0ME
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 2:57pm
Audio trouble....here's a better link-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YENbElb5-xY&feature=related
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 3:11pm
Relax, everybody.
Posted by RobertDreyfuss at 05/22/2009 @ 2:44pm | ignore this person | warn this person
lol...thats no fun...
;)
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 3:30pm
The issue here is not that these four guys are sympathetic or innocent,.....Maybe these guys were a threat and maybe they weren't but whatever threat they posed is a minor, manageable, law enforcement issue. It has nothing to do with the War on Terrorism.....
Posted by RobertDreyfuss at 05/22/2009 @ 2:44pm
It's when you write stuff like this, that reminds me why when I first read you (before indiv. photo accompanied the blog), I assumed you were an intern-level journalist.
In the aftermath of 9/11, there is NO turning back to the Pre-9/11 mindset. Our worst fears of `man-made-disasters' are no longer just a car bomb going off next to a federal building or somebody going postal in a school or atop some university tower.
Why is it so convenient to forget that today, nuclear material have spread far and wide from multiple sources including the old Soviet Union.....chemical weapons are fairly simple and used (Japanese "man-made disasters").....and AQ left evidence of its desire to make biological weapons?
One key issue, even if not obvious here on the blog, is these 4 individual's willingness to become undertake Jihad.
IF the FBI did NOT take them down now, some elements of entrapping notwithstanding, I can easily see the day (since I too, have some telepathy capability) when Bin Laden's 18th cousin, hands a real `Disaster' to them and have them plant it in Central Park or Madison Sq. GArden....or even more likely, have them unwittingly become suicide `Disaster' planters.
The ranks of Islamo Fascists are filled with low-IQ types, same as today's Nazis or the KKK, don't ya think?
Posted by Happy at 05/22/2009 @ 3:34pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2009 @ 10:34am | ignore this person | warn this person
i'm warning you frosty. one of these days i'm gonna mock you something awful...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 3:44pm
"In the aftermath of 9/11, there is NO turning back to the Pre-9/11 mindset. "
the so-called "pre-9.11 mindset" really only refers to that short period of time between january 20, 2001 and september 11, 2001.
Posted by darladoon at 05/22/2009 @ 3:50pm
shall we march in support of the poor, stupid "newburgh 4" whose stupidity led to them getting thrown in jail for plotting to kill people?
jeez...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 08:59am
No, we should march in support of the principle that the government should not be using sting operations against people who are not even suspected of a crime.
That the government should not engage in the disruption of political or religous organizations not suspected of a crime.
That the government should not target organizations based on such general characteristics as religion, political ideology or even bigotry, absent reasonable suspicion of a crime.
And that the government should not engage in the circular act of encouraging people to commit a crime, facilitating their actions, and then arresting them for engaging in the government-inspired and assisted criminal activity that they were not even suspected of previously engaging in.
Don't march in support of the Newburgh 4. March so that the government can't do the same thing to you.
Posted by cka2nd at 05/22/2009 @ 4:07pm
but it does serve notice to more competant would be terrorist types that the US government is hunting for them.
good.
an ounce of prevention...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 10:30am
No, it serves notice to the real terrorists that the FBI is wasting its time and resources on entrapment schemes to get easy arrests and uncritical press coverage. And, it serves yet again to drive the mass of American Muslims into suspicion and non-cooperation when they would probably be the best source of information about honest-to-God extremists.
Posted by cka2nd at 05/22/2009 @ 4:12pm
As with most things, a "Sensible Middle" approach works. Not the "Round them all up and throw 'em in Gitmo...we'll sort out guilt later" of Cheney...
or the "It's all entrapment of poor dumb ex-cons...there are no extremists" of Robert Dreyfuss.
Posted by Mask at 05/22/2009 @ 11:34am
The problem is, your middle is rarely sensible.
I doubt that Mr. Dreyfuss questions the existence of ANY Muslim extremists in the U.S., and I certainly don't, but the real question is, what evidence, if any, existed against any of the Islamist "terrorists" the FBI ensnared in their entrapment schemes?
Posted by cka2nd at 05/22/2009 @ 4:27pm
ultra-conservative radio talk show host gets waterboarded and........guess what?
it's "torture, absolutely"
ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0
Posted by darladoon at 05/22/2009 @ 4:57pm
Posted by cka2nd at 05/22/2009 @ 4:12pm | ignore this person | warn this person
i disagree (and might be wrong, in that what i'm about to say is pretty close to what i want to think) in that i think it may point to the possibility that MOST, perhaps THE GREAT MAJORITY of american muslims are good, god fearing, hard working, dignified, LOYAL, citizens and have resisted such crap.
but its hard to say. islam has a very deceitful side which is unnerving. google "undercover mosque". if several popular currents of the religion are "preaching" anything like the vile, treasonous, hatred i heard on that video, its something i WANT the fbi or whoever watching.
and if a few idiots get dragged up out of the gutter and into jail in the process, big effin deal. they werent going anywhere else...
and i think its perfectly legal.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 5:16pm
Posted by cka2nd at 05/22/2009 @ 4:12pm | ignore this person | warn this person
don't answer this if you don't want, not intending to get personal, so divulge as little personal information as you can, but...
whats the deal with your moniker? cka2nd
not meaning to mock, but its always bugged me for some reason. i can't associate it with anything in my head, so never remember it, or remember it as "C...ndtovs..2" or something.
mine means nothing, so don't ask. lol
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 5:35pm
but its hard to say. islam has a very deceitful side which is unnerving. and if a few idiots get dragged up out of the gutter and into jail in the process, big effin deal. they werent going anywhere else... and i think its perfectly legal.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 5:16pm
ibbleblibble,
So name a goddamn religion that is devoid of this "unnerving deceitful stuff" which you don't seem to like. Free samples of unnerving materials from Christianity and Judaism are available upon request, if you wish to expand your horizon. Would you care suggest how many of these "unnerving" Christians and Jews should we also arrest to make you happy?
People should not be dragged out and thrown in jail because their level of IQ or religion do not fit your standard; I thought that due process means something in America.
Posted by CripThink at 05/22/2009 @ 7:07pm
i'm warning you frosty. one of these days i'm gonna mock you something awful...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 3:44pm
relax, brother.
it's just that you are becoming more and more violent and, to be honest, it's rather disheartening.
i'm not naïve; i read <i>a lot</i> (just ask the nsa)...
i also understand the darkness found in everyone's heart. nonetheless, almost everyone, regardless of their religion (and the crazy shit their crazy books say) is more interested in dinner and tv.
to say that THOSE people are bad because they see "god" in a different way than you do is......
well, it kinda reminds me of lots of the history i've read, except they weren't muslims; they were jews or buddhists or christians or yellows or blues or purples.....
i just read crip's deal. that, too.
careful, or they're coming for the buddhists next.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2009 @ 7:29pm
Look for more sting ops by NYPD once multibillionaire Bloomberg gets his illegal 3rd mayoral term. These will be meant to package the multibillionaire as a defender of the homeland in contrast to a wishy-washy self-righteous weak on terror Obama, when the multibillionaire buys the GOP nomination in '12 & tries to buy the WH.
Posted by sloper at 05/22/2009 @ 8:55pm
Sorry, but this is the most pathetic thread you've posted todate.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/22/2009 @ 10:21am | ignore this person | warn this person
Quite right! This is like a "flashback" to the 1960s and 70s leftist mentality which shows Dryfuss's misplaced loyalties. I'm sure he cheers loudly when the tactic is used against Democrat congressmen and mayors!
Note to self; Never,but never disagree repeatedly with SHINEY NICHOLMAN as he will bar you from posting and you have to get creative.!!!!! comancheamerican
Posted by BigPasture at 05/22/2009 @ 10:46pm
rio,
did they kick you out again?
that's just plain wrong.
hey, nation!
i agree with everything rio has ever written.
so,,, there.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2009 @ 11:27pm
"Plot after plot -- the destruction of the Brooklyn Bridge! bombing the New York Subways! taking down the Sears Tower! bombing the Prudential building in Newark! -- proved to be utter nonsense." -Dreyfuss
And yet, a couple dozen men have been convicted for these plots.
So, either these men are all innocents, wrongly convicted, or this post is..... utter nonsense.
Posted by twillie at 05/22/2009 @ 11:30pm
careful, or they're coming for the buddhists next.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2009 @ 7:29pm | ignore this person | warn this person
we're not people of the book, even...they just kill us when they take over.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 11:56pm
YOGI THE BEAR CAUGHT IN TERRORIST PLOT!
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/22/2009 @ 2:09pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I always wondered what happened to him, thought he might have filched his last picnic basket and got shipped to Canada!
Posted by BigPasture at 05/23/2009 @ 12:14am
D. Boone killed a bar, totally demolished a librul picnic chest & ate three orders of curly fries...
In the year of aur l-rd, etc, etc.
Posted by Sorelish at 05/23/2009 @ 12:58am
and i think its perfectly legal.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 5:16pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Yep, everywhere you look there seem to be useful idiots willing to pick up a gun or anything handy to rob a convenience store, liquor store just to kill someone for $20.00! Terrorist are more fun!
Don't mind seeing any of them carted off and destined to become the "flavor of the month" symbol of American injustice and the new "social victim" symbol for the wacko leftist to epitomize and work to free them, disreguarding the human misery they cause leave a trail of behind them, before they commit their next atrocious acts!
Posted by BigPasture at 05/23/2009 @ 01:16am
9/11 made Bush, Cheney, Guliani et al. It's all they have.
Their popularity was in the horse latitudes and they needed an islamic terrorist.
All they could come up with were these bargain basement Bin Ladins and this entrapment nonsense only shows how desperate they were.
Posted by koroviev at 05/23/2009 @ 02:49am
Again Again and Again,the bad Moslums are after to kill the Jews. Question should be--who in Government circles authorized the operation?
Posted by geo1671 at 05/23/2009 @ 06:44am
The question which arises here is: Why does FBI squanders its resources on such idiotic projects?
There are potentially millions in America who would might be talked into doing harm to Jews or US military establishment.
Does the FBI have the resources to go after them all?
The same goes for detaining potential enemies in foreign countries and keeping them in Guantanamo.
There might well be a couple of million of them in Iraq, and even more in Afghanistan alone.
There are perhaps a couple of hundred million such potential enemies of America all over the world.
Can US use its resources chasing self-made enemies for years to come?
The root of trouble is US military on foreign soil. Find a substitute for that and Americans can sleep easy again.
Pat Buchanan puts it well: THEY ARE HERE BECAUSE WE ARE THERE!
Posted by I-opener at 05/23/2009 @ 08:00am
Funny, isn't it, that when it comes to the incarceration of not-very-bright, easily-led minority men our friends on the reactionary, libertarian right praise the government for swift and brutal action; even though the nefarious aborted plot would have little or no effect upon our daily lives.
Yet, when the government slaps the wrists of so-called "masters of the universe" of Wall Street our same friends on the reactionary, libertarian right scream police brutality!
Posted by ETSpoon at 05/23/2009 @ 08:22am
Posted by CripThink at 05/22/2009 @ 7:07pm
Thank you.
Posted by cka2nd at 05/23/2009 @ 09:31am
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/22/2009 @ 5:35pm
Taking it on faith here that you're not a government agent, they are my initials.
Posted by cka2nd at 05/23/2009 @ 09:34am
I am more fearful of the guy living in my town who just purchased a weopen at a gun show with out having a background check than I am these guys. I don't recall any recent attacks, the last several years, on society domesticly from other than white males. Some of them follow a exstream belief system. Oh, we can't utter that phrase "right wing exstreamist" now can we? But we sure can say "Muslim" and it's ok to trash those persons beliefs.
Posted by mfrede at 05/23/2009 @ 10:12am
Yet, when the government slaps the wrists of so-called "masters of the universe" of Wall Street our same friends on the reactionary, libertarian right scream police brutality!
Posted by ETSpoon at 05/23/2009 @ 08:22am
Care to provide evidence that any conservative here has defended any Wall Street crooks?
Posted by antisocialist at 05/23/2009 @ 12:38pm
Either this was a chilling terrorist plot, or it was a sting operation--the government can't have it both ways.
If the informant hatched the plot and paid these guys to take part, it's not a very impressive sting operation, either--more of a police makework project.
Posted by Lindsay_Beyerstein at 05/23/2009 @ 12:53pm
They really were not Mulsims? Prison converts to Islam, hanging around a mosque? I see, they were just misled catholics. To top it off, they were "tricked" into a terrorist plot. Now, all of a sudden, the people at the mosque suspected the "recruiter" was a federal agent - BS, how stupid do you think people are? If someone comes upto you and tries to induct you into some terror plot, what do you do if you are not inclined to participate? Call the FBI and report it moron - it covers your ass. Otherwise you will be caughtup in the plot if it is a sting, and if you are inclined to participate, you will be screwed anyway.
The fact is, it doesn't matter how much of a loser someone is, if they get the right connections and materials, they could have killed hundreds. Good work FBI.
Posted by pyeatte at 05/23/2009 @ 12:54pm
Posted by snowball666 at 05/23/2009 @ 10:30am: You seem to think only white collar crime exits and should be punished. Clearly there are all types of crime and they should be delt with accordingly on their own terms. Unfortunately, many on the left think political differences of opinion is a crime.
Posted by pyeatte at 05/23/2009 @ 1:03pm
To me it's the same updated,racist,slavemaster kkk type activity. Only thing different it has a strange twist of nazi type terror. After reading the book by Christian Parenti " Lock Down Amerikkka " I can see that we are in a serious police state,population control type of a society now. I say welcome to the new world of disorder.
Posted by Soul601 at 05/23/2009 @ 2:22pm
What astonishes me is that the original msm news pieces on this weren't accompanied by a laugh track, or, more seriously, weren't followed instantly by some newsperson saying: "How much longer must we be insulted by some dimwit FBI careerist flushing tax dollars while turning his back on his professional duty to pursue real criminals in favor of crafting bogus terrorists out of mentally-challenged ghetto superlosers? What a transparent load of crap."
Why did we have to wait days for Robert Dreyfuss to state the obvious, while the msm sells and resells a self-evident load of bull?
Are Americans brain-dead?
Posted by get.real at 05/23/2009 @ 3:06pm
Uh, they're far from the first terrorists to be pretty freaking stupid and who enjoy smoking pot. History is replete with terrorists exactly like them:
http://tinyurl.com/rbshrm
Posted by HotRocks at 05/23/2009 @ 7:59pm
Posted by get.real at 05/23/2009 @ 3:06pm
Hey brain dead..unlike you, some of us try and remember 9/11.
Go back into your dark hole.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/23/2009 @ 9:31pm
My response to this article and the other articles by The Nation columnists that are soft on political Islam:
http://theactivist.org
Some of The Nation contributors are great, its still the best left-of-center mag in the nation, but you can't be serious when it comes to some of these statements.
Posted by bhaskar at 05/23/2009 @ 10:24pm
"Four Men and a Fake Stinger Missile"
"The 10 things that gave away the laughable FBI plot"
http://msrb.wordpress.com/
Posted by beguiled at 05/23/2009 @ 10:31pm
As opposed to Bernie Madoff...he didn't kill anyone for his $20...any of the 250,000,000 times he did it!
Big Pasture. Bigger cowpie. I smell Bandini.
Posted by snowball666 at 05/23/2009 @ 10:30am | ignore this person | warn this person
What part of a "FOOL" and his money will soon be parted is not credible reality for you?
Cite the in depth investment analysis pursued by his "investors" that gave them pause to place all their money with such flim flam artists as this Maddof?
In every single case ever it has been the unsophisticated naive trusting investor that chose to make the leap to fool without investigating the investor?
Posted by BigPasture at 05/23/2009 @ 10:57pm
>This is law enforcement? Just imagine if someone did this at a local church, or some synagogue.
Ah, er, they'd probably report the guy rather than join up with him. Are you that much of a dumbass to not be able to tell the difference between various groups in society? Or am I stereotyping and not being fair.
Fuck you.
Posted by Wiles at 05/23/2009 @ 11:20pm
You "conservatives" can't even be bothered to learn anything about Islam aside from stupid Internet rumors and whatever the MSM spoonfeeds you and yet you want the rest of us to march along in goose-step when you inform us, with all seriousness, that Islam is a threat to the United States.
I should hope Muslims would practice jihad. It is important to their religion, and the vast majority of the time it's about internal struggle, not about going around blowing people up. When it becomes about warfare, I have to ask: so what? The Qur'an does not teach that Muslims should turn the other cheek. God demands that people who are being harmed should not commit suicide by failing to resist. Let's face it, if there were enough Muslims who wanted to take over the United States and they had enough hardware to pull it off, you white Christians and Jews would take up arms regardless of what your religions say about it. So then you have no right to expect Muslims to remain silent when *they* are attacked... over. and over. and over again. Try reading up on the history of European meddling in the Middle East and other Muslim areas, sometime. If you think you can stomach it.
Israel itself is founded on stolen land. All the way back in the Old Testament is nothing but bragging about how "God" told the Hebrews to slaughter all Pagans living in "their" land. If a bunch of religious people got together in the U.S. today and started killing their unbelieving neighbors so as to take over their homes, and claimed God told them to do it, there'd be a huge public outcry and it'd make Waco look like a campfire marshmallow roast.
Continued...
Posted by danaseilhan at 05/23/2009 @ 11:28pm
...But we let it happen in Israel. Why? Because a bunch of NUTS claimed God gave them the land. We don't let that fly here--we executed Son of Sam for what "God" told him to do. Get more than one psycho in one spot in the Middle East to slaughter for "God's" land, though, and that's perfectly okay?
Maybe some of us sympathize with them 'cause we think slaughtering the American Indians for THEIR land was cool too? That's got to be it. Then we wonder why Muslims are pissed off. Even if some of them are being opportunistic about it... doesn't make what "Israel" is doing any less wrong. Theft is theft. Oppression is oppression. Murder is murder. We PAY them to do all these things.
Then some of us whine and pule and cry about how terrible it is that some Muslims--gasp!--stand up for themselves!
If plastique and dynamite had existed from the 1400s to the present day I guarantee you there would be no United States and no Internet and I would be singing my child to sleep in Tslagi, if I existed at all. Violence in the face of hopelessness is a near-universal human trait.
As for "political Islam," welcome to the real world, where people who profess beliefs should probably also live by them. How do you think it looks when you say you believe in being kind to children and then punch your infant child in the nose? How is it any different to say you believe in praying five times a day, then blow it off 'cause Jerry Springer's on? The personal is political, and vice versa. Don't claim beliefs you won't practice. Likewise, don't practice something you don't believe in. Devout Muslims already grok this.
continued again...
Posted by danaseilhan at 05/23/2009 @ 11:34pm
Do I agree with Islam or believe in it? From what I know of it, some parts I agree with, some parts I still wrestle with--a sort of intellectual exercise, because for practical reasons I don't know that I would make a very good Muslim.
But I don't have to be a Muslim to know b.s. when I see it. I don't have to put up with oppression or violence-baiting or slander or any of the rest of it. And so I won't.
See, I'm a woman, and I'm a feminist. And I came of age in the early nineties, and I saw the violence that went on in this country in the name of the Christian God year after year--that went largely unreported, or underreported, or given short shrift in some way in the news. I found the Army of God website as it existed at that time; I knew about the Nuremberg web page before it became trendy in the media.
And in all that time I never saw any meaningful opposition coming from the conservative camp, and y'all had ample opportunity to offer it.
And what they were doing was TERRORISM. And usually, they got away with it.
So I tell you what. You go round Donald Spitzer and his little friends up, and you send their butts to federal prison. And then you get up in front of God and everybody, denounce Israel, denounce Christian terrorism here at home, and apologize for those eight years of Bush and the eight of Reagan before him. (Bush the Elder was a bit of a lightweight by comparison.) And then maybe I'll concede that you mean to "protect" my country by sending FBI agents into mosques to harass mentally disturbed people.
Until then? Bite me.
Posted by danaseilhan at 05/23/2009 @ 11:40pm
Posted by danaseilhan at 05/23/2009 @ 11:40pm
Please, for the sake of society, either take your meds or admit yourself into a mental ward. You are a danger to yourself and society.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/23/2009 @ 11:45pm
"I found the Army of God website as it existed at that time; I knew about the Nuremberg web page before it became trendy in the media. And in all that time I never saw any meaningful opposition coming from the conservative camp, and y'all had ample opportunity to offer it."
I didn't see much opposition from the liberal or feminist camps, either.
"Try reading up on the history of European meddling in the Middle East and other Muslim areas, sometime. If you think you can stomach it."
Try reading up on Muslim meddling in North Africa and Spain, if YOU can stomach it.
I would take issue with some of your other points, but you don't seem to be thinking too clearly.
Posted by twillie at 05/24/2009 @ 12:10am
Twillie,
I guess Spain and Italy were guilty of conspiring against Islam and that's why the Muslims invaded Spain in 711 AD and Italy in 828 AD.
Or the historic Battle of Tours 732 AD where Charles Martel defeated the Moors invasion of Europe.
<The Battle of Tours followed 21 years of Umayyad conquests in Europe which had begun with the invasion of the Visigothic Christian Kingdoms of the Iberian peninsula in 711. These were followed by military expeditions into the Frankish territories of Gaul, former provinces of the Roman Empire. Umayyad military campaigns had reached northward into Aquitaine and Burgundy, including a major engagement at Bordeaux and a raid on Autun. Charles' victory is widely believed to have stopped the northward advance of Umayyad forces from the Iberian peninsula, and to have preserved Christianity in Europe during a period when Muslim rule was overrunning the remains of the old Roman and Persian Empires>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
Or the later invasions of Europe including the battle of the Gates of Vienna 1683
The Jihadis besiege Vienna but Polish Heroism saves the day
<The Turks after overrunning Serbia, Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary, now lunged at the heart of Central Europe by repeatedly attacking Cracow and Vienna. They focused on Vienna as that was the major city, the capture of which would open their advance into Poland and Germany. Sensing the danger, in the winter of 1682-3, Poland, Prussia (Germany) and Austria came to an agreement providing for joint action against a Turkish invasion and promising relief in case of a direct attack on Vienna or Cracow.>
http://www.historyofjihad.org/austria.html
Posted by antisocialist at 05/24/2009 @ 12:28am
BTW that history of jihad website is an excellent resource to counter the lie that Muslims only reacted to the Christian Crusaders.
Islam began attempting to conquer the entire world as soon as the religion was formed. They tried to conquer Europe all the way to Moscow and Asia eastward into India.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/24/2009 @ 12:31am
I thought this sounded fishy and like a entrapment when I saw the first news story on it. Our "law enforcement" are a bunch of Keystone Cops--except, not funny. K. Scott
Posted by kscott at 05/24/2009 @ 07:37am
The link from this story to "comments" doesn't work. What is wrong? K. Scott
Posted by kscott at 05/24/2009 @ 07:40am
Having the patsies manipulated by a coached provocateur seems to be the method of choice for generating cases to justify the bogus war on terror .
Recall how the NY FBI in '93 encouraged, financed and even gave the "targets" real explosives and detonators and the go-ahead to kill American Citizens .
Taxpayers money was used to kill Americans ! So why isn't Herr Chertoff and the Feds working at the time brought up on charges of Treason and Mass murder ?
Posted by Adze at 05/24/2009 @ 09:01am
Not wanting to adopt the smearing tactics of the left I sort of held my peace on the sweet and gentle interrogation methods of the FBI that get such great intelligence. You know, they are not like those nasty crims down at the CIA who waterboard. Well the sneaky clean Ali Soufan is a pretty mean horrible bastard, in my estimation,who got another Arab, a physician no less, 25 years with his non- harsh interrogation methods. Consequently I'd tend to have doubts about any of the intelligence the FBI got. Including on these four derros. (aka bogans)
Who's for a little bit of honest torture?
"In 2005, Soufan approached Florida doctor Rafiq Abdus Sabir and pretended to be an Islamist militant, and asked him whether he would provide medical treatment to wounded fighters in the Iraq War. [8] When Sabir agreed to provide medical treatment, he was arrested and sentenced to 25 years' imprisonment for supporting terrorism.[9]" Wilki
That in isolation may just mean Ali was having a bad day. But the fact that he is clearly a (stinging) megalomanic is probably why Cheney got him sacked from the KSM job:
"A Lebanese-American FBI agent, Ali Soufan was instrumental in a number of high-profile anti-terrorism cases both in the United States and abroad, before retiring from the force after publicly chastising the CIA for not sharing information with him which could have prevented the September 11th attacks."
Ho hum. Could only happen in America.
Posted by lrjones4 at 05/24/2009 @ 10:10am
Ali is probably a megalomaniac too.
Posted by lrjones4 at 05/24/2009 @ 10:19am
we executed Son of Sam for what "God" told him to do.
no we didn't. Son of Sam has been incarcerated since 1977.
Posted by emile duBois at 05/24/2009 @ 6:32pm
Posted by snowball666 at 05/24/2009 @ 11:29am
Yeah wasn't too sure what to call him, I wanted it to be more clinical than simply "delusions of grandeur" then I had a brilliant Ali like thought. Why not look it up in the dictionary?
"Megalomania (from the Greek word μεγαλομανία) is a historical term for behavior characterized by delusional fantasies of wealth, power, genius, or omnipotence -- often generally termed as delusions of grandeur or grandiose delusions. It is a Greek word ,"megalo" meaning "very large", "great", or "exaggerated" and "mania" meaning obsession...."
What I did note in a bit of research (aka looking at wikipedia) is that the FBI and the CIA despised each other's information gathering techniques and Ali, it seems not only was obsessed with his own place at the pinnacle of brilliant interrogators but was almost (if that were possible) equally obsessed with bringing the CIA down.
Posted by lrjones4 at 05/24/2009 @ 6:54pm
If you had a fervent belief (let's be generous) that your techniques were more effective than 'The Company', and you believed, like Cheney, that your work was the difference between 9/11 taking a backseat to something worse and avoiding same, wouldn't you be 'obsessed'?
Posted by snowball666 at 05/24/2009 @ 7:09pm
Probably not. But I haven't yet got a psychiatric certificate to prove that I'm not a Megalomaniac so who knows? However a healthy self awareness isn't a bad sort of immunisation against one's own fervent beliefs.
Posted by lrjones4 at 05/24/2009 @ 7:31pm
Surprised? Uh.. NO.
How do you avoid criticizing the sacred cow of the Military-Industrial-Complex without a real or imagined enemy?
Posted by politicky at 05/24/2009 @ 10:31pm
Posted by snowball666 at 05/24/2009 @ 7:09pm
Though I am interested in outcome, we have been led to believe that process can alienate surprise, surprise, our enemies and also the uncommitted. But what is their choice? American "cruelty" or American "treachery"?
Or put another way the CIA or the FBI.
Which do you think they would choose?
But then perhaps they just don't give a stuff.
Posted by lrjones4 at 05/25/2009 @ 07:15am
Posted by CripThink at 05/22/2009 @ 7:07pm | ignore this person | warn this person
islam has certain concepts which explicitly instruct followers on how to decieve non muslims. google terms suchas ketman and taqqiya, though the latter is associatewith shia.
also watch dispatches' "undercover mosque" on google video.
in my opinion people tend to be decietful and hypocritical, sometimes for good reasons.
such islamic concepts make perfect sense - if you live amongst folk who do not share your beliefs, and your beliefs involve overthrowing their society and instituting a code of laws that makes a mockery of the traditions of the original population...and yer going to tax those who fail to convert and kill those who wish to leave and (insert one abomination after another here to liberal ideas of western style democracy) it makes damned good sense that you...
lie to those who outnumber you and might be terified and outraged if they found out what you REALLY think and have planned for you when not engaged in the politeness of decieving you into thinking they are just like you in terms in intention...
but how many in the USA think like this? i don't know.
how many are their who do and don't think about this?
i don't know, but i'm not assuming godlike powers. but if there exist muslim congregations here like those exposed for the treasonous, bigotted, hatred wspoused therein...i want fbi agents infiltrating them and keeping an eye on them.
if they preach anything like what i have seen and heard, they are indeed an obvious hotbed of recruitment and hate/violence enabling propaganda and need be monitered...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/25/2009 @ 08:08am
Taking it on faith here that you're not a government agent, they are my initials.
Posted by cka2nd at 05/23/2009 @ 09:34am | ignore this person | warn this person
smart. i think i might be a government agent, though, so deep undercover even I don't know it...
perhaps we all are...lol...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/25/2009 @ 08:21am
Theft is theft. Oppression is oppression. Murder is murder.
nonsense is nonsense.
Posted by emile duBois at 05/25/2009 @ 08:38am
Posted by snowball666 at 05/25/2009 @ 09:38am | ignore this person | warn this person
uh oh...u figgered it out...
hide!!!
lol
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/25/2009 @ 10:05am
<i>Posted by snowball666 at 05/25/2009 @ 09:38am </i>
THAT'S why everyone loves anonymous voting! It's a smokescreen. But no longer!
I'm also amused that this whole thing gets going right around the time Angels and Demons came out in the theater.
Posted by Thrawn at 05/25/2009 @ 10:38am
in my opinion people tend to be decietful and hypocritical, sometimes for good reasons..... but how many in the USA think like this? i don't know. ...how many are their who do and don't think about this? ....i don't know, but i'm not assuming godlike powers. Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/25/2009 @ 08:08am
ibble....,
You seem to be Googling straight from the "Protocols of the Elders" without acknowledging your plagiarism. Spewing such claims about any religion requires proper citation and references from that religion's texts; a task that seems to exceed the limited intellectual capacity which you have displayed so far. It seems that the scholarly hat you are assuming has too loose a fit over your modest brain size.
Aside from your Googling BS, can you support your claims from a recognized Islamic text? Your claim of conspiracy can also be applied to the Bankers who robbed half of our nation wealth, to the Neocons who took us to war based on lies and false pretenses and to those who spied on our nation to the benefit of a foreign entity; motivated by dual loyalty. Which of the above citizen groups should we begin to monitor, and when should the routing up begin? My advise to you, little brother, is to keep your thoughts to yourself, because honestly, I am not sure that you know a sh*t of what you are talking about.
Posted by CripThink at 05/25/2009 @ 1:00pm
Posted by CripThink at 05/25/2009 @ 1:00pm | ignore this person | warn this person
"You seem to be Googling straight from the "Protocols of the Elders" without acknowledging your plagiarism."
i'm at work and have no time to footnote you top death. wiki "ketman". google "undercover mosque".
"Spewing such claims about any religion requires proper citation and references from that religion's texts;"
really? why can't i just read a religion's texts, check out some commentary, and offer an opinion? what i said requires nothing whatsoever.
"a task that seems to exceed the limited intellectual capacity which you have displayed so far. It seems that the scholarly hat you are assuming has too loose a fit over your modest brain size."
well, i tell ya what...why don't you define the term "ketman", and please be very scholarly about it. and review the documentary as well, and present a fully cited and fotnoted scholarly review for us.
because i dont think you have the slightest inkling beyond the immediate assumption that all religions are equally good or bad or whatever sappy leftist cumbaya drivel you think you are supposed to believe in order to maintain your good, compassionate, intellectual lefty creds up to date.
as a bad and mean lefty who refuses to twist unpleasant reality to conform with what i want to believe, perhaps you can teach me a few tricks about life and how to misread it.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/25/2009 @ 1:43pm
The "informant" in this case (more accurately, he should be called the creative director) was also the informant in this even sketchier case:
http://nepajac.org/Strock.htm
Apparently he has a record also of lying to the FBI, but they used him again, sending him out to find and cultivate (and even offer money to, it seems) losers and psychos who could play the lead parts.
As a commenter on another site pointed out, the FBI wanted to keep it in NYC but not make it too scary, so the "informant" had the team scope out Riverdale, not a big Manhattan synagogue -- and coached them to go after a Newburgh Air National Guard plane, not a passenger plane out of JFK.
Real terrorists with even a modicum of sophistication have little to fear when the FBI devotes its resources to making a reality show for entrapping nobodies. These four, jobless, eating rice and beans at Denny's, getting high, and doing petty crimes, never would have dreamed up the plan on their own, much less had the competence, knowledge or financial resources to carry it out.
And now real terrorists can rest secure that the FBI is looking the other way, seeking out PR wins through cases it cooks up itself. I'd be pretty angry if I were a congregant at the Riverdale synagogues, which the FBI has now made targets for every psychotic anti-Semite with a weapon.
Posted by carolyna at 05/25/2009 @ 2:06pm
Posted by danaseilhan at 05/23/2009 @ 11:28pm:
You have a rather demented and twisted world view.
Posted by pyeatte at 05/25/2009 @ 2:23pm
Posted by pyeatte at 05/25/2009 @ 2:23pm | ignore this person | warn this person
did you understand what it was?
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/25/2009 @ 5:32pm
I think the FBI has really started to lose it's reputation, they apprehended so many innocent people that now when ever there is a new bust people can't help but think whether some more innocent people are in trouble thus tarnishing the image of the U.S even further, the intelligence needs to be improved to bring the real culprits to justice to garner support from Americans as well as the rest of the world.
http://www.formationshouse.com/company_formation.htm
Posted by Mr.Incorporation at 05/26/2009 @ 02:04am
Actually I think its time people try to realize what the actual threat right now is.
<a href="http://www.formationshouse.com/company_formation.htm">Company Formation</a>
Posted by Mr.Incorporation at 05/26/2009 @ 02:24am
the FBI plant came with a suitcase of cash, paying these poor shlubs to be patsies.
Posted by emile duBois at 05/26/2009 @ 08:17am
The agenda of the elite in the USA since the 1960s has been about making Israel look good and the Muslims look bad.
We've had 35 years of the media telling us and giving examples of how bad the Palestinian terrorists were, but little to nothing of an unbiased and complete background of how this situation all came about. The Likud in Israel have the same agenda.
In the USA it is acceptable to trash all Muslims and unacceptable to be critical of Israel or those who put Israel first. This it is shown to be true of anonymous internet bloggers whose critical posts on Israel are deleted or "moderated". But for politicians or professionals to be critical of Israel has been shown to be career suicide. The FBI is not alone in understanding this bias and thus we have agents working the system to gain atta-boy points by entrapping these idiots as Muslim extremists.
While there are extremist Muslims, we've been sold a bill of goods that only tells half of the story. I'm not convinced the true story of 9-11 has been told.
Posted by ZMR at 05/26/2009 @ 10:52am
I'm not convinced the true story of 9-11 has been told. Posted by ZMR at 05/26/2009 @ 10:52am | ignore this person | warn this person
get a grip, mon ami.
the 9/11 attack in characterized by and owes its success to an inevitable simplicity. you cannot get more basic than boxcutters and airplanes.
all conspiracy theories suffer from the fatal flaw of over complication.
Posted by emile duBois at 05/28/2009 @ 08:38am