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RedditLast Thursday, in what was billed as his very first on-the-record address, Lt. Gen. Keith Dayton, U.S. security coordinator for Israel and the Palestinian Authority, spoke to the 2009 Soref Symposium organized by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. WINEP, of course, is the chief thinktank for the Washington-based Israel lobby.
And in his talk, Gen. Dayton delivered an important warning.
First, the background. For the past three and a half years, Dayton has lived and worked in Jerusalem and across the West Bank, overseeing the creation of three Palestinian battalions of troops, hand-picked in the West Bank, trained at an academy in Jordan, and then deployed in the occupied territory.
The three 500-man battalions are intended to grow, to as many as ten battalions. Their mission, he said, is to "create a Palestinian state." Recognizing that many in the WINEP audience were not exactly enamored with the idea of an independent Palestine, Dayton told his audience: "If you don't like the idea of a Palestinian state, you won't like the rest of this talk."
From the detailed description provided by Dayton, it's clear that the Palestinian forces he's enabling could certainly be accused of carrying out the self-policing of the West Bank for the Israelis. Because the West Bank is, after all, occupied by Israel and riddled with illegal settlements besides -- plus beset by a surrounding wall, 600-plus intrusive checkpoints, and a network of Jews-only highways -- the Palestinian troops are utterly at the mercy of the Israelis. Each recruit is vetted by US security forces (i.e, the CIA), then vetted by Shin Bet, the domestic intelligence arm of Israel, and then by Jordan's super-efficient intelligence service, before they begin their training in Jordan. Dayton made it quite clear that the Palestinian units thus trained are primarily deployed against two targets in the West Bank: against criminal gangs, and against Hamas.
So far, they've received $161 million is US funding.
Dayton described how, during the Israeli assault on Gaza last December and January, the West Bank remained quiet -- even though some analysts were predicting an upsurge of sympathy for Hamas, which controls Gaza, along with violence, even a third intifada. "None of these predictions came true," said the general, who added that the Palestinian battalions allowed peaceful demonstrations of solidarity with Hamas, but kept the lid on violent actions. Israel, he said, "kept a low profile," and not a single Palestinian was killed in the West Bank during the three-week carnage in Gaza.
Most of the work he's done, Dayton said, occurred in the West Bank after the June, 2007, Hamas takeover in Gaza. "What we have created are 'new men,'" he added.
Now for the warning. Recognizing that by organizing and training thousands of Palestinian troops, professionally led, he is creating in effect a nationalist army, Dayton warned the 500 or so WINEP listeners that the troops can only be strung along for just so long. "With big expectations, come big risks," said Dayton. "There is perhaps a two-year shelf life on being told that you're creating a state, when you're not." To my ears, at least, his subtle warning is that if concrete progress isn't made toward a Palestinian state, the very troops Dayton is assembling could rebel.
Dayton was responding to a question from Paul Wolfowitz, the neoconservative former deputy secretary of defense, who now hangs his hat at the neocon-dominated American Enterprise Institute. "How many Palestinians see your people as collaborators?" Wolfowitz asked. In answering Wolfowitz, the general acknowledged that Hamas and its sympathizers accuse the Palestinian battalions of being "enforces of the Israeli occuption." But he stressed that each one of them believes that he is fighting for an independent Palestine. The unstated message: the United States and Israel had better deliver. Thus the two year warning. Which, to me, sounds spot on with the Obama administration's timetable.
One more thing: General Dayton signed up for another stint in the West Bank. And how long did he agree to serve? Yes--two years.
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Robert Dreyfuss
A chronicle of America's adventures in foreign policy and national security.
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Sounds like they will be well prepared to serve in the "Palestinian Army" aka the Jordanian Army in 2 years.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/10/2009 @ 10:14pm
Mr. Dreyfuss, please back up your contention that there are "Jews-only" highways anywhere in the world. There are certainly "Israeli-only" highways in the disputed territories, however your characterization of such roads as "Jews only" is false and pejorative. This is not the first time in recent months that you have made disparaging insinuations against Jews in this column, and some of us are wondering if you are planning to continue with the public insults.
Posted by izthatafact at 05/10/2009 @ 10:29pm
"and not a single Palestinian was killed in the West Bank during the three-week carnage in Gaza. "
If that's a notable accomplishment, we've got a *long* way to go.
At least they're not planning on using that Palestinian army to invade Gaza and depose Hamas. Or at least, it wasn't mentioned.
My question though is what is the real reason thee battalions were created? If they're as thoroughly vetted as this article states, and they prove effective at deterring violence, then shouldn't the Israeli forces pull out of the West Bank once they prove competent? That would be a good goal for this force...and it would give them their (mostly) independent Palestine, minus any negotiation hangups.
Posted by zmann at 05/10/2009 @ 10:48pm
humans are so stupid.
start an army so you can build a country.....
it's like having a lobotomy so you can do calculus.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 12:05am
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 12:05am
Dunno, FROSTY. If it wasn't for the Canadian army, Dick Cheney probably would have ANNEXED you guys in 2003 and Rumsfeld would have said "the Canuck WMDs are north, east, south, and west of Ottawa!"
Posted by Mask at 05/11/2009 @ 06:38am
hi mask.
did you have a nice vacation?
i understand the futility of wanting a militarily-free world,
but how do i explain that to my son?
is this the best we can do?
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 07:31am
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 12:05am | ignore this person | warn this person
well of course in a perfect world, no army is a wonderful oprion. til then some will need armies, or at least some kind of armed security.
it IS a shame with all the problems that await us in the furure, that worldwide we shaved apes continue spending so much on militaries, but...
i would have a hard time concieving the possiblity of a traumatized place like the west bank WITHOUT a few hard men in uniform...
1500...three battalions...
good investment.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/11/2009 @ 07:31am
i would have a hard time concieving the possiblity of a traumatized place like the west bank WITHOUT a few hard men in uniform...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/11/2009 @ 07:31am
get me off this hopeless orb!
well, maybe after springtime....
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 07:36am
get me off this hopeless orb!
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 07:36am | ignore this person | warn this person
try some of these places...
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/About/Education/SpaceSettlement/70sArt/art.html
i go there from time to time...
i especially like the cylindrical designs.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/11/2009 @ 07:54am
is this the best we can do?---Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 07:31am
Yes, it is.
And yes, nice time off, thanks.
Posted by Mask at 05/11/2009 @ 08:04am
oh, the wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'....
(uh, reo. my apologies.)
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 08:11am
Toronto student's space colony design wins NASA contest
Saturday, May 9, 2009 CBC News
A Toronto high school student's detailed vision of a space settlement -- a spinning, cylindrical-shaped structure capable of holding 10,000 residents -- was named the winner of an annual NASA competition.
Eric Yam, a Grade 12 student Toronto's Northern Secondary School, took the grand prize in his age group of NASA's Space Settlement Competition, becoming the first Canadian to win the award in the contest's 16-year history.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 08:14am
is this the best we can do?
by frosty zoom
Yes, it is.
by Mask
well, i know <i>you</i> would say that.
get me rothberg on line 6......
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 08:17am
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 08:17am
I'm saying that we have nation-states and their sovereignty often if not always depends on a national defense of SOME sort. Even Switzerland has an army, even air force.
Posted by Mask at 05/11/2009 @ 08:43am
Was this just your normal racism, Anti? Or a smokescreen to cover the fact that you won't allow Palestine to self-police and deal with Hamas because that would eliminate your ranting points?
Posted by snowball666 at 05/11/2009 @ 08:24am
What is racist about Arabs serving with other Arabs in a nation where the greatest number of so-called "Palestinian Arabs" already live. Yes, more "Palestinian Arabs" live in Jordan than live in the West Bank and Gaza.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 08:58am
eek!
WISCONSIN COURT UPHOLDS GPS TRACKING BY POLICE
MADISON, Wis. - WISCONSIN POLICE CAN ATTACH GPS TO CARS TO SECRETLY TRACK ANYBODY'S MOVEMENTS WITHOUT OBTAINING SEARCH WARRANTS, AN APPEALS COURT RULED THURSDAY.
However, the District 4 Court of Appeals said it was "more than a little troubled" by that conclusion and asked Wisconsin lawmakers to regulate GPS use to protect against abuse by police and private individuals.
As the law currently stands, the court said police can mount GPS on cars to track people without violating their constitutional rights -- EVEN IF THE DRIVERS AREN'T SUSPECTS.
Officers do not need to get warrants beforehand because GPS tracking does not involve a search or a seizure, Judge Paul Lundsten wrote for the unanimous three-judge panel based in Madison.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 09:04am
I'm saying that we have nation-states and their sovereignty often if not always depends on a national defense of SOME sort. Even Switzerland has an army, even air force.
Posted by Mask at 05/11/2009 @ 08:43am
oh, i know that. i do have access to the internets.
just sayin' humans are really stupid.
countries are stupid.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 09:06am
What is racist about Arabs serving with other Arabs in a nation where the greatest number of so-called "Palestinian Arabs" already live. Yes, more "Palestinian Arabs" live in Jordan than live in the West Bank and Gaza.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 08:58am
you should get your european butt off aboriginal land, you so-called "american".
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 09:07am
or maybe we should give your land back to "original" owners.
if it can work in so-called "israel" after 2000 years, i'm sure it can work in california after 150.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 09:10am
you should get your european butt off aboriginal land, you so-called "american".
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 09:07am
Why? they didn't originate here either. they just got here ahead of us, were defeated, and there's no chance they will rise up again and overthrow us. If they could, I'd probably leave.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 09:15am
What is racist about Arabs serving with other Arabs in a nation where the greatest number of so-called "Palestinian Arabs" already live. Yes, more "Palestinian Arabs" live in Jordan than live in the West Bank and Gaza.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 08:58am | ignore this person | warn this person
Can you spell "mercenary." Vetted by Shin-Bet -- oh please. How many Bedouin are on the US payroll? Bedouin already do much of Israel's nasty work in Gaza. -$161 million - sounds like a branch of Blackwater.
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 09:17am
Why? they didn't originate here either. they just got here ahead of us, were defeated, and there's no chance they will rise up again and overthrow us. If they could, I'd probably leave.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 09:15am
asshole.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 09:22am
Why? they didn't originate here either. they just got here ahead of us, were defeated, and there's no chance they will rise up again and overthrow us. If they could, I'd probably leave.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 09:15am
asshole.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 09:22am
Wrong, FZ. Or maybe half-correct. As I have always suspected, the word is "Coward."
Posted by onthehelm at 05/11/2009 @ 09:30am
Wrong, FZ. Or maybe half-correct. As I have always suspected, the word is "Coward."
Posted by onthehelm at 05/11/2009 @ 09:30am
And which branch of the service were you in?
and what did you do to fight US enemies?
leftwing windbag and probable coward.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 09:34am
Posted by snowball666 at 05/11/2009 @ 09:20am
Not forcing anyone. There are over a million Arabs who are Israeli citizens and vote in their elections.
But for those who don't want it and are demanding a nation, why don't they join the nation that was formed from that territory for them and is where most of the Arabs from that territory now reside?
As opposed to their current plan which is to "push the Jews into the sea"
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 09:37am
As opposed to their current plan which is to "push the Jews into the sea"----Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 09:37am
So how you figure YOUR "push the Arabs 'back' into Jordan" plan is going?
Posted by Mask at 05/11/2009 @ 09:45am
'According to Dr. Kedar, "the Bedouins did not want to belong to the state, and the state did not want them to belong either. They serve in the IDF because they need a livelihood, they don't share the Zionist ethos. And in the midst of this, some of the youths develop a Palestinian ethos, especially the ones in the North, because of their proximity to the fields. They no longer want to be nomadic, and they connect to those...'
Homegrown terror – Bedouins strengthen ties to Palestinians
Yael Levy Published: 05.04.09, 23:33 / Israel News - YNET
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 09:46am
Officers do not need to get warrants beforehand because GPS tracking does not involve a search or a seizure, Judge Paul Lundsten wrote for the unanimous three-judge panel based in Madison.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 09:04am
Got any scoop on US Census using GPS coordinates in lieu of mailing address in the upcoming 2010 Census? These coordinates can be fed to satellites for instantaneous real time satellite surveillance.
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 10:04am
'According to an online Yahoo program, the Global Position System coordinates for the White House, probably one of the best-known publicly owned buildings in the world, are 38.898590 Latitude and -77.035971 Longitude. And since you know that, it's no big deal for the White House to know the coordinates for your front door, is it?
Some people think it is, and are upset over an army of some 140,000 workers hired in part with a $700 million taxpayer-funded contract to collect GPS readings for every front door in the nation.
The data collection, presented as preparation for the 2010 Census, is pinpointing with computer accuracy the locations and has raised considerable concern from privacy advocates who have questioned why the information is needed. The privacy advocates also are more than a little worried over what could be done with that information.
Enhancing the concerns is the Obama administration's recent decision to put White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel in an oversight role over the census, which will be used to determine a reapportionment of congressional seats and could be used to solidify a single political party's control over the nation, its budget, military and future.'
LIFE WITH BIG BROTHER Census GPS-tagging your home's front door Coordinates being taken for every residence in nation - Excerpt
Posted: May 05, 2009 8:32 pm Eastern
By Bob Unruh © 2009 WorldNetDaily
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=97208
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 10:09am
'Jordan's ruling class is made up of people of Bedouin Arab descent,....'
Source: Wiki
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 10:19am
Back to the topic of the column.
The problem with the left is that it is so invested in ideological purity, that it undermines its own interests and goals. West Bank Palestinian society has lacked law and order, and been subjected to the thuggery of Hamas and Fatah militant extremists. Don't take my word for it; the PA generals say the same thing. Vetting is necessary to ensure that the PA professional military is not infiltrated by Hamas or Fatah militants. Across the ideological spectrum we should be applauding this development. It is a necessary step towars peace. To accuse these Palestinian forces as being Israeli stooges is both insulting and stupid.
Posted by gren at 05/11/2009 @ 10:30am
should have said "PA security officials" instead of "PA generals".
Posted by gren at 05/11/2009 @ 10:43am
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 10:09am
I'm sorry, did you just cite...
WORLD NET DAILY?!?!?!?!?
The "news source" that was looking for Obama's "real" birth certificate a few months ago?????
Posted by Mask at 05/11/2009 @ 11:06am
Very clever, Israel. Guess you're hoping for an expanded civil war, Hamas vs. PA. Unification of the two would simply make for a bigger target. The unbridled transparency of this thing is sickening. The two-state solution is sticking to the pan.
Dayton is right though. There's still hope.
Posted by Sorelish at 05/11/2009 @ 11:40am
Mr. Dreyfuss, please back up your contention that there are "Jews-only" highways anywhere in the world. Posted by izthatafact at 05/10/2009 @ 10:29pm
Robert Dreyfuss has reported accurately on the existence of Jews-Only highways in the West Bank. The article below points to a conversation between a reporter and an Israeli soldier who was confiscating a Palestinian vehicle because the Palestinian driver drove on such designated road:
"When a Palestinian drives on such a road, his vehicle is confiscated and he is sent on his way. On one occasion I witnessed such an encounter between a driver and a soldier who was taking down the details before confiscating the vehicle and sending its owner away. "Why?" I asked the soldier. "It's an order--this is a Jews-only road", he replied. I inquired as to where was the sign indicating this fact and instructing [other] drivers not to use it. His answer was nothing short of amazing. "It is his responsibility to know it, and besides, what do you want us to do, put up a sign here and let some anti-Semitic reporter or journalist take a photo so he that can show the world that Apartheid exists here?" http://www.imemc.org/article/46484
Lying for Israel is a fatal affliction of the American Zionist movement. Like racist South Africans, they will persist in denying reality until it is too late. There is a difference between facts and what the Zionists don't like to hear.
Posted by CripThink at 05/11/2009 @ 1:07pm
So how you figure YOUR "push the Arabs 'back' into Jordan" plan is going?
Posted by Mask at 05/11/2009 @ 09:45am
I think Netenyahu has a better chance than those who proceeded him.
And certainly that is a better option for the Arabs then they are offering the Jews.
I saw the King of Jordan's threat this weekend that Israel had the choice to cave in to the Arabs or face war within a year.
Israel will tell them to pound sand, and Obama also is he is foolish enough to betray an ally.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 1:10pm
larry,
you're right!
nuke them so-called palestinians,
especially the christians.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 1:13pm
O little town of Bethlehem,
How high our walls do grow;
Above the checkpoints and the guns
The silent stars do cry;
And in thy dark streets moveth
The bulldozers to the shacks.
The hopes and fears of little kids
Who see their brother's corpse.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 1:19pm
If antisocialist is not a Palestinian troll whose purpose is to delegitimze Israel and Zionism by expressing extremist positions, he might as well be. He does not represent the views and positions of mainstream Israelis and Zionists.
Posted by gren at 05/11/2009 @ 1:19pm
For Christ is born of Mary,
And gathered all above,
While mortals sleep the angels keep
Their watch of wondering love.
O morning stars, together
Proclaim the holy birth !
And praises sing to God the King,
And peace to men on earth !
NUKE 'EM, LARRY!
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 1:19pm
Posted by CripThink at 05/11/2009 @ 1:07pm
He may have been thinking that Israeli Arabs (Muslims, or Israeli Christians) may be allowed to drive on the road...Israeli-only, not Jew-only. But I suppose we won't know until he responds.
Posted by zmann at 05/11/2009 @ 1:24pm
It would be nice, for the sake of fairness, if Americans will dispatch another General, like Dayton, to Israel. His main mandate should be to purify the Israeli Government from the Fascist elements in its midst (for the sake of peace). Top on the list of such fascists should be Bibi Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman. Leadership of the Religio-Fascist movement of the Jewish settlers on West Bank should be included on such list. Few Fanatic Rabbis who spew hatred of Palestinians and advocate pure racist Jewish State should also be targeted.
Posted by CripThink at 05/11/2009 @ 1:28pm
If antisocialist is not a Palestinian troll whose purpose is to delegitimze Israel and Zionism by expressing extremist positions, he might as well be. He does not represent the views and positions of mainstream Israelis and Zionists.
Posted by gren at 05/11/2009 @ 1:19pm
Gren, while I find your comments overall to be semi-balanced, your statements here show that you actually disagree with nearly 70% of Israelis.
And since you are fairly new to this site, I can tell you that myself and my views are welcomed in Israel and have been for decades. In 1989 I had to turn down a gracious offer from Israel to receive a commission as an officer in the IDF. It was offered because of my my military and intelligence experience, and my many years of support for Israel.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 1:32pm
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 1:10pm
So, can we drag a prediction out of you?
WHEN (ballpark it) will Netanyahu drive into Gaza and the West Bank, round up the "Palestinians", and start giving them the choice of "Israeli citizenship" or being put on a cattle car for Amman?
And, uh, of course, what if "some" of them don't want to go and obey what San Remo and the League of Nations thinks they should do???
Posted by Mask at 05/11/2009 @ 1:42pm
He may have been thinking that Israeli Arabs (Muslims, or Israeli Christians) may be allowed to drive on the road...Israeli-only, not Jew-only. But I suppose we won't know until he responds. Posted by zmann at 05/11/2009 @ 1:24pm
zmann,
First of all, it is not a secret that the Israelis built these racist highways to facilitate safe passage for the Jewish Settlers on the West Bank. It is analogous to giving the thieves who take over your land a safe passage. How would it sound to you if we take over Mexico, and then, build Americans-Only roads there?
Posted by CripThink at 05/11/2009 @ 1:45pm
So, can we drag a prediction out of you?
WHEN (ballpark it) will Netanyahu drive into Gaza and the West Bank, round up the "Palestinians", and start giving them the choice of "Israeli citizenship" or being put on a cattle car for Amman?
And, uh, of course, what if "some" of them don't want to go and obey what San Remo and the League of Nations thinks they should do???
Posted by Mask at 05/11/2009 @ 1:42pm
I took King Abdullah of Jordan seriously this weekend when he issued the Arab threat against Israel.
Before Israel even gets to a point to consider such a move, the Arabs evidently plan to launch another war like the '67 war against Israel.
That should be bigger news and of more concern than where 1.5 million Arabs live.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 1:46pm
How would it sound to you if we take over Mexico, and then, build Americans-Only roads there?
Posted by CripThink at 05/11/2009 @ 1:45pm
If we took over Mexico, they would be American roads.
Actually, if we took over Mexico, it would probably be the best thing that could happen to give the Mexican people a future.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 1:48pm
hey antisocialist
I respect your opinion, and your passion. But the Israeli polls show, and human nature confirms, that if Israel and the PA reached an agreement in which the PA gave up the claim for a right to return and agreed on borders pursuant to which Israel would keep the 5% of the West Bank inhabited by four urban centers, 65 - 70% of Israelis would support the peace treaty.
No one in Israel except for religious extremists oppose a withdrawal from almost all of the West Bank. The disputed issue is East Jerusalem only.
Posted by gren at 05/11/2009 @ 2:03pm
Hey antisocialist
I also respect your apparent military experience and accomplishment. But I do not believe that the military can provide Israel with permanent security in the absence of a peace treaty. My sister and my cousins live in Israel, and I have spent much time there. Living in a constant state of war is destroying the Israeli heart and soul. Too much sorrow, too much anger, too much hate is infecting our people.
Posted by gren at 05/11/2009 @ 2:09pm
Actually, if we took over Mexico, it would probably be the best thing that could happen to give the Mexican people a future.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 1:48pm |
Anti-Social,
You can't resist the temptation, can you?
Your racist nature does not need introduction and your foul smell is a trade mark. Tell me monk: What did you promise your Israeli recruiters in return for admitting you to the IDF? How much American classified national security materials were planning to pass on to them "considering your military and intelligence back ground".
The evangelical movement must have expanded a lot of clout to get an idiot like you to serve at any intelligence capacity. And the IDF recruiters must have been quick to realize the futility of having someone of your limited intellectual in their ranks.
Posted by CripThink at 05/11/2009 @ 2:13pm
No one in Israel except for religious extremists oppose a withdrawal from almost all of the West Bank. The disputed issue is East Jerusalem only.
Posted by gren at 05/11/2009 @ 2:03pm
Many in Likud support the idea. Certainly it is favored by those in Yisrael Beiteinu, Shas, United Torah Judaism, and National Union.
Combined these represent almost 50% of Israelis
I am on record as supporting the Israeli Initiative of Benny Elon
http://tinyurl.com/IsraeliInitiative
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 2:33pm
Posted by CripThink at 05/11/2009 @ 1:45pm
You should ask some right-wingers a similar question...the NAFTA highway!!!
And I was pointing out something that I didn't notice he included in his post when I replied this morning, sorely lacking sleep. Apologies.
Posted by zmann at 05/11/2009 @ 2:37pm
What Mr. Dreyfuss refers to as "a network of Jews only highways" are in reality "Israeli only" roads. Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindi, atheists, whoever, are allowed to use those roads as long as they are licensed to drive in Israel. To blithely call them "Jews only" belies the chimerical nature of that fine distinction many so-called "progressives" have lately been trying to make between "anti-Zionism" and "antisemitism". If those self-designated philosemitic anti-Zionists want a non-pejorative adjective, they could try "apartheid" roads, or "thieves" roads or somesuch. That they insist on falsely using "Jews only" as a negative identifier betrays their anti-Jewish prejudices. Mr. Dreyfuss's own prejudice can also be inferred by the stunted quality of the character of the only participant on this board who has chosen to defend him on this point.
Posted by izthatafact at 05/11/2009 @ 2:41pm
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 1:10pm | ignore this person | warn this person
It is absolutely insane, that you are characterizing what the King of Jordan said as a threat to wage war on Israel. The King of Jordan himself said no such thing. The King of Jordan said that unless Israel, the US, Syria, and Lebanon worked out the problems and made a peace agreement, there is a real likelihood of another major crisis in the Middle East or in the Islamic world in the next 1-2 years.
Did you read the article by Dreyfuss above? The Jordanian government is cooperating with the CIA and Shin Bet to create a friendly occupation force for Israel in the Occupied Territories. Jordan is not threatening Israel. Jordan is working with Israeli intelligence and the Israeli military and government to create an occupation force that suits Israel.
You are such a bent man! Just warped -
Posted by syfriendly at 05/11/2009 @ 2:43pm
tell antisocialist
Actually, even Leiberman supports withdrawal from the west bank settlements, including the one in whicg he currently lives. Shas also supports withdrawal, though it is adamantly opposed to giving up any part of East Jerusalem.
Anyway.
Posted by gren at 05/11/2009 @ 2:44pm
Posted by izthatafact at 05/11/2009 @ 2:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person
The roads all link "settlements" in the Occupied Territories and the Israelis that travel them are primarily "settlers" ie fanatical expansionist Zionist Jews. Dreyfuss is not misrepresenting these roads.
Posted by syfriendly at 05/11/2009 @ 2:44pm
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 1:46pm
Wasn't really my question.
Given "Reagan" Netanyahu (Bibi just silly as a nick) WHEN (again, ballpark it) does The Great Annexer make his move on Gaza and the West Bank and push out the "un-cooperative" "Jordanians"?
Fall this year....Winter-Spring 2010....Summer 2010? What?
Posted by Mask at 05/11/2009 @ 2:54pm
It is absolutely insane, that you are characterizing what the King of Jordan said as a threat to wage war on Israel. The King of Jordan himself said no such thing.
You are such a bent man! Just warped -
Posted by syfriendly at 05/11/2009 @ 2:43pm
Really? Perhaps this will help clear your mind.
Interview with Richard Beeston
<If you don't succeed in your peace plans, will it matter?
We're going to have a war. Leading up to the Lebanese war, I said there was going to be a conflict with Israel. I said it four or five months before. I said it would happen either in Lebanon or Gaza. It was Lebanon. In November, I said there would be another war in Lebanon or Gaza. I thought it would happen when Obama was in office but was surprised by it happening a month earlier. If we delay our peace negotiations, then there's going to be another conflict between Arabs or Muslims and Israel in the next 12 to 18 months -- as sure as the other conflicts happened.
So that's the alternative -- to have another round of war, and death and destruction. But its implications now resonate far beyond the Middle East region. There are other challenges in Afghanistan and Pakistan. We have a lot more on our plate to deal with. If the call is in May that this is not the right time or we are not interested, then the world is going to be sucked into another conflict in the Middle East.>
http://tinyurl.com/qmpggn
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 3:20pm
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 3:20pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Try reading for comprehension. The King said:
" ... If we delay our peace negotiations, then there's going to be another conflict between Arabs or Muslims and Israel in the next 12 to 18 months -- as sure as the other conflicts happened ..."
and the King said:
" ... If the call is in May that this is not the right time or we are not interested, then the world is going to be sucked into another conflict in the Middle East ..."
and the King said these things to national media in countries with whom he and his kingdom are cooperating, specifically, the US, the UK, and Israel, amongst others. The King's intelligence forces specifically are working closely with the intelligence services of Israel and the US to create a proxy occupying force to maintain the O.T. for Israel. The King is warning that the Islamic world is going to erupt again if the current regimes in Israel and the US do not make a real effort on a peace agreement with Lebanon and Syria. This is not the King of Jordan "threatening Israel with war" as you put it. You are an absolutely demented individual. The King of Jordan is telling the governments that he is closely cooperating with (did you read Dreyfuss' article located above all your rants?) that the option of spending several more years in an unresolved conflict with the Palestinians and Israel's immediate neighbors will produce another meltdown in the Middle East.
Posted by syfriendly at 05/11/2009 @ 3:36pm
The King also said:
" ... What we are talking about is not Israelis and Palestinians sitting at the table, but Israelis sitting with Palestinians, Israelis sitting with Syrians, Israelis sitting with Lebanese. And with the Arabs and the Muslim world lined up to open direct negotiations with Israelis at the same time. So it's the work that needs to be done over the next couple of months that has a regional answer to this -- that is not a two-state solution, it is a 57-state solution.
That is the tipping point that shakes up Israeli politicians and the Israeli public. Do you want to stay Fortress Israel for the next ten years? The calamity that that would bring to all of us, including the West? This has become a global problem. We are saying to the Israelis that this is an issue that is far bigger than you Israelis and the Palestinians. This is where I think the Obama Administration gets it. I am very, very concerned about having a conference in six months' time, and another one in a year's time, that doesn't work. I think we're going to have to do a lot of shuttle diplomacy, get people to a table in the next couple of months to get a solution ..."
Note the concluding sentence "I think we're going to have to do a lot of shuttle diplomacy, get people to a table in the next couple of months to get a solution ..."
This is not a threat of war. "Shuttle diplomacy" does not involve warfare.
Posted by syfriendly at 05/11/2009 @ 3:39pm
oh, the wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'....
(uh, reo. my apologies.)
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 08:11am
You mean Journey, not Speedwagon, right?
(snicker)
Posted by Benchrest at 05/11/2009 @ 3:49pm
Was there some conflict of interest in having Google do it instead?
Posted by snowball666 at 05/11/2009 @ 11:40am
Wasn't aware that Google had access to military spy satellites, or military's or military's precision GPS systems? Military's sat will read a dime in the palm of your hand. What is Google offering again - street level views.
The idea here is to link persons with precise GPS coordinates, not physical addresses with street level views which are done for commercial purpose such as real estate listings, etc. Still, some people are pissed at Google's intrusion eh?
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 4:29pm
The "news source" that was looking for Obama's "real" birth certificate a few months ago?????
Posted by Mask at 05/11/2009 @ 11:06am | ignore this person | warn this person
Maskie....you denying it is happening? Please provide proof to the contrary other than your disbelief.
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 4:32pm
Posted by syfriendly at 05/11/2009 @ 3:39pm
Your dodging the issue.
I'll post again what King Abdullah said.
Beeston: "If you don't succeed in your peace plans, will it matter?"
King Abdullah: "We're going to have a war."
More from King Abdullah: "Here is one final opportunity. If the only player in this equation between the West, the Arabs and the Muslims that is not being helpful and is against peace is Israel, then let's call it for what it is. Let Israel understand that the world sees Israeli policy for what it is."
Seems pretty clear like a threat to me.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 4:37pm
Vetting is necessary to ensure that the PA professional military is not infiltrated by Hamas or Fatah militants. Across the ideological spectrum we should be applauding this development. It is a necessary step towars peace. To accuse these Palestinian forces as being Israeli stooges is both insulting and stupid.
Posted by gren at 05/11/2009 @ 10:30am | ignore this person | warn this person
Maybe we can start vetting our own military and political leadership as well. Posted on Dreyfuss' previous blog -
'Tomorrow is the day the rubber meets the road," AIPAC president David Victor told the conferees Monday before they disbursed for regionally oriented pre-lobbying briefings at the Washington Convention Center. "This is a moment of danger… We are the only constituency in America making this [anti-Iranian] case."
AIPAC launches push for Iran sanctions; Andrew Glass, Politico; 05/04/09 - Excerpt
There you have it folks. From the mouth of AIPAC.'
Only constituency pushing for Iran sanctions - pushing us ever closer to war. AIPAC is saying is. And you Zionists think I am paranoid??????
Seems like a handful of well connected extremists are causing us trouble as well.
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 4:42pm
first, seeking sanctions is an alternative to war.
Second, AIPAC is not the only constituency pushing sanctions. The AIPAC spokespeople are egomaniacs who eggagerate their power, prestige and importance, this giving anti-Zionists fuel for fire.
Posted by gren at 05/11/2009 @ 4:53pm
Posted by gren at 05/11/2009 @ 4:53pm | ignore this person | warn this person
the kind of sanctions sought = war
similar to 500,000 dead Iraqi children which Madeline Albright said "was worth it."
the idea is to starve Iran into submission, and seeks to enlist the help of the "world" in doing so.
Okay....so what other lobbyist groups are supporting sanctions?
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 5:00pm
While Ehud Olmert and Mahmoud Abbas were wheeling and dealing at Annapolis, several Israeli government ministries and security agencies were deploying their combined resources in a massive operation aimed at Israel's southern Negev Desert. While the eyes of the world are on the West Bank and Gaza, Israel is in the middle of a campaign to complete the displacement of Palestinian Arabs who are also Israeli citizens.
The indigenous Bedouin are the target, and their lands are required by the state in order to complete the implementation a master plan for the Negev. The plan relegates the Bedouin to ghetto enclaves while allocating huge swathes of territory for Jewish suburban development and agricultural communities. The Negev is the final frontier inside Israel, the last tract of largely undeveloped land in the state. Israel has virtually completed the dismemberment of Palestinian lands in the center and north of the country, and now is consolidating the "Jewish redemption" of the southern desert.
These Bedouin lands are coveted by the Jewish National Fund (JNF) which has published plans to move large numbers of Jews to the Negev. To make way for new JNF communities, the "unrecognized" villages of A-Tir, Um Al-Hiran, and Twail Abu Jarwal were destroyed during 2007 in military-style operations involving large forces of police and soldiers, displacing hundreds of families. The Interior ministry has also sent airborne crop dusters to poison the Bedouin fields with broad-spectrum herbicides. The feared Green Patrol, a paramilitary unit of the Ministry of Agriculture, conducts these operations.
There are over 150,000 Bedouin in the Negev desert, with well-established territorial rights dating back to the Ottoman Era.....
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 5:01pm
Bedouin lands in south confiscated to make room for more Jewish communities
Fred Schlomka Published: 01.06.08, 09:06 / Israel Opinion
YNET News - Israel's Quiet War
cite to above
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 5:03pm
tell onevote
You're changing a material term of the discussion. The original quote and my comment referred to "constituencies", not lobbying groups. Perhaps you can identify a constituency that is opposed to sanctions. Even Obama has not ruled out increased sanctions if diplomacy doesn't work, and administration officials have expressed disappointment over the Iranian response to Obama's overtures.
Re: the Bedoins. The US, state and local governments repeatedly have and continue to condemn private property for public use. I do not know if Israeli law requires just compensation as does the American constitution, or whether the Bedoin actually own the property that the Israeli government is claiming for state use. This is a public policy issue, not a Jewish / Arab issue.
Posted by gren at 05/11/2009 @ 5:12pm
Good luck tracking Anti, but Wisconsin will try (even if you're NOT a suspect! without a warrant?! The ACLU should be on that like flies on poo).
Posted by snowball666 at 05/11/2009 @ 5:05pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Let us hope.
Finding front doors ain't the idea. And no, we don't need military accuracy to find front doors, but it sure is nice when you want to do some recon from orbit. Say you are a suspect. Put you on real time, and everyone that comes and goes from your coordinates can be surveiled, your comings and goings, etc. Really creepy.
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 5:36pm
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 4:37pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I'm not misreading or dodging jack doodely squat. When the King says "we're going to have a war" he is referring to it as a calamity for everyone. You are attempting to distort and selectively pick a few words out of hundreds because these words appeal to your bizarre, demented world view. You can read that one sentence over and over and over again. Just don't pretend that the sentence, taken out of the context of all the other sentences in all the paragraphs of the transcription of what the King of Jordan said can be twisted into some sort of crazed theory on your part that the King of Jordan is threatening war on Israel. Get fucking real. The article under which you are posting your looney comments describes how the King of Jordan has ordered his intelligence services to work with the CIA and Shin Bet to create a proxy occupation force for Israel in the O.T. In the interview with the King you are citing as support for your demented, weird conclusions, the King of Jordan is talking about shuttle diplomacy to avoid a war, which would be in his opinion a calamity for the entire world. The problem that he is seeking to avoid is the problem of the intransigence and basic desire to avoid making peace on the part of the current Israeli regime, and the real possibility that the current US regime will roll over and let the crazy Israelis continue on in some delusional haze of triumphalism and militant imperiousness. Which is a real threat.
Then, like the weirdo you are, you take one sentence, and pretend that this is all that was said. Either you are a moron, obstinately a moron, or you are simply bent, obstinately bent, or some combination of the two.
Posted by syfriendly at 05/11/2009 @ 5:44pm
Posted by gren at 05/11/2009 @ 5:12pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Yeah - eminent domain Israeli style with paramilitary Green Patrol........
Oh lets see - how about Iranian Americans with relatives back home, would that constitute a constituency?
Or how about US business interests that will be hurt by sanctioning Iran? Is that a constituency?
Or how about European mutli-nationals that will be criminalized if they trade with Iran? These multi-nationals have offices in US. Are they are constituency?
How about the folks domestic and international that will be suffer as we bargain away one group (such as Georgians for instance, or Tibet) as we try to enlist Chinese and Russian cooperation on sanctions with Iran.
Only chorus I hear in support is from your constituency, consistent with what AIPAC is telling us.
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 5:44pm
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 4:37pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Yes, you idiot, you must be right: impoverished, underdeveloped, and militarily weak Jordan is threatening nuclear-armed, rich Israel with war. What's next? The U.A.E. is going to threaten to invade Israel?
Posted by syfriendly at 05/11/2009 @ 5:47pm
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 4:37pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Yes, the first step in waging war on a foreign country is to have your intelligence service work its intelligence service to help the foreign country shore up its controversial territorial claims in a way that gives political cover and aid to your enemy. This is how clever people fight a war! By furthering the interests of their enemies!
(I've seen in a couple comments on this web site that you apparently claim to have some sort of military background; the only thing that could be certain in this regard is that, if you did have military background, with you in the military, your side is certain have lost any conflict it got into.)
Posted by syfriendly at 05/11/2009 @ 5:52pm
similar to 500,000 dead Iraqi children which Madeline Albright said "was worth it."
the idea is to starve Iran into submission, and seeks to enlist the help of the "world" in doing so.
Okay....so what other lobbyist groups are supporting sanctions?
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 5:00pm
So, you were also against sanctions for South Africa?
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 6:02pm
Yes, you idiot, you must be right: impoverished, underdeveloped, and militarily weak Jordan is threatening nuclear-armed, rich Israel with war. What's next? The U.A.E. is going to threaten to invade Israel?
Posted by syfriendly at 05/11/2009 @ 5:47pm
Right (lol); 'cause we all know that Jordan and the other Arab nations have never attacked Israel before.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 6:03pm
Israel is an apartheid state. After destroying whatever secular Left was in the Arab world during the Cold War, if we are confronted with the choice between apartheid and political Islam that would be a hard choice to make, but it's hard to see Israel as anything but an apartheid state based upon dispossession.
Zionism's original sin was that, just like projects to build Islamic states, it was a racist project, even though a lot of its founders wrapped it in a left-wing veneer. It caused dispossession and violence in the region.
Obviously the only realistic course is a two-state solution, but I find it hard to believe that any so called "progressives" could argue in the acceptability of a "Jewish" state.
Posted by bhaskar at 05/11/2009 @ 6:17pm
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 6:03pm | ignore this person | warn this person
That was 1967. That same year, Israel attacked and destroyed the USS Liberty, a blatant act of war against the US. By your "reasoning", the US should be preparing for an Israeli assault on American forces in Iraq any day now.
You seem to be in absolute denial of reality. The article under which you are posting your looney comments about the King of Jordan threatening war on Israel describes how the King of Jordan is having his intelligence service hand-pick and assist in the training of proxy occupation forces for Israel in the O.T. The King, claiming that the US and Israel need to make real progress on peace initiatives with the Palestinians, Lebanon, and Syria, is working closely with the Israeli government, military, and intelligence services - and the CIA - to help Israel stabilize the West Bank in a way that gives political cover to Israel.
You somehow manage to conclude that, therefore, Jordan is planning war on Israel. You are sufficiently dense as to provoke jealously from the average neutron star.
Posted by syfriendly at 05/11/2009 @ 6:22pm
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 5:00pm
So, you were also against sanctions for South Africa?
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 6:02pm | ignore this person | warn this person
You really think the two are analogous? Sanctions against domestic apartheid are analogous to sanctions against Iran to preserve Israeli hegemony over nuclear weapons? What is the opinion of Iranian Jews of Israel? Are they calling for sanctions against Iran?
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 6:59pm
Posted by gren at 05/11/2009 @ 5:12pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Forgot to ask Gren - you think AIPAC represents the "Jewish Constituency," or is it more accurate to say that it represents the Zionist constituency of Israeli and American Jewry?
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 7:04pm
Posted by syfriendly at 05/11/2009 @ 6:22pm
Jordan attacked Israel in the '48 war and seized the West Bank as a result of that war.
It was not until the '67 War when Israel took back the West Bank from Jordan, not Arabs living in Israel.
It is true that Jordan elected to stay out of the '73 War waged by Egypt and Syria against Israel.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 7:13pm
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 4:32pm
Simple question, OV...
that the same World Net Daily that was making the stink about Obama's "real" birth certificate...
or not?
Posted by Mask at 05/11/2009 @ 7:14pm
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 6:03pm | ignore this person | warn this person
CAPE TOWN (JTA) -- A letter from a group of Jewish South Africans published in a Cape Town newspaper tells Jewish leaders who support Israel's Gaza operation not to speak for them.
Nearly 100 Jews signed the letter, which appeared Monday in the Cape Times daily, attacking a statement supporting Israel's decision to launch a military operation against Hamas in the Gaza Strip. The statement was issued by the South African Jewish Board of Deputies, the South African Zionist Federation and the office of the chief rabbi on behalf of the community.
While the group recognizes the existence of communal structures, it is "distressed that they purport to speak for us and the many Jews who are uncomfortable with the destruction in Gaza, claiming one collective view for the entire community." The letter calls the approach of the communal bodies "irresponsible" in view of the divergence of opinion within the community.
It describes Israel's response in Gaza as "inhumane and disproportionate collective punishment prohibited under international law" while "strongly opposing" the rockets Hamas has been firing into Israel. It calls on communities "vocal in their support for the Palestinians" to condemn the latter.
About 15,000 protesters marched on the South African parliament last week under the banner of the Muslim Judicial Council against Israel's actions in Gaza.
"We call on the Jewish Board of Deputies not to exacerbate local tensions with statements that demonstrate a lack of compassion for Palestinian lives," the letter concludes.
Among the letter's signatories were the principal of the University of Cape Town, Max Price....
JTA 01/13/09
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 7:15pm
or not?
Posted by Mask at 05/11/2009 @ 7:14pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Don't know - is it?
So ya think they are out to get Obama with this article?
Why does the government need GPS coordinates on every household? Census and redistricting fraud? Tell me what ya know about it, if anything.
Here is a posting on Ron Paul's website:
'Census used GPS to mark my front door ?? Posted May 1st, 2009 by almfree Some of you may have heard the strange news surrounding the now on-going census. I've been reading 'rumors' and 'facts' from different web sources for a few days now and found it to fall in the conspiracy- weird news side of things.
I just talked to my neighbor who spoke directly with the Federal census man while he was standing on his front porch. It's true- at least in my neighborhood- a burb of Rochester, NY.
The census taker simply walks to the FRONT porch/door of every house and then marks his handheld GPS to mark the location. That's all he did here... my house included, and my neighbor watched him move through the rest of the block....
So let me ask all of you- WHY DOES THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT NEED TO KNOW THE LATITUDE/LONGITUDE OF MY FRONT DOOR?
Constitutionally the census is to collect the total number of PEOPLE- not names, birthdates, relationships, etc. yet this is reportedly going on too, and now I believe it.
Something's not right.
Any input?'
Suppose your beloved BO could fill us in on what the hell the Census is up to, or is this "confidential." Tell how the Patriot Act has been used beyond its stated original scope again. Just like you thought that NSA spying on us was a conspiracy theory right Maskie??
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 7:29pm
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 7:13pm | ignore this person | warn this person
"Took back the West Bank in 1967"?!?!! Israel was never entitled to the West Bank.
You're as bad as the Holocaust deniers, just on the opposite side of the coin. They have some weird need to pretend that the Holocaust didn't happen or "wasn't so bad" ... you have this deranged need to subscribe to an equally fictional historical narrative.
You are a lot like one of these Lyndon LaRouche supporters I encounter the streets from time to time - the goal is to avoid contact, there is no point in trying to talk to these people because they, like you, are trying to inhabit a parallel universe where reality matches whatever fantasies you subscribe to.
And you are hiding from the entire issue - the only reason we are having this (for me, idiotically silly) drawn-out comment thread interaction (I couldn't bring myself to call it a dialog, you're just bent) is because you can't seem to understand that you are claiming that Jordan is threatening (nuclear-armed, militarily huge) Israel with war - directly underneath an article you apparently didn't read, because it describes how Jordan is working with the US and Israel to create a security framework TO ISRAEL'S ADVANTAGE in the West Bank.
Now, this is it for me. I have some time on my hands this evening, and you gotten more of it than you ever rate. Go take your bizarre theories and declaim them from your town square from atop an orange crate. I suggest you team up with a Holocaust denier, a really neo-NAZI type - the two of you would be the funniest act since Abbot & Costello, and more absurd than anything Monty Python ever produced.
Posted by syfriendly at 05/11/2009 @ 8:11pm
I suggest you team up with a Holocaust denier, a really neo-NAZI type - the two of you would be the funniest act since Abbot & Costello, and more absurd than anything Monty Python ever produced.
Posted by syfriendly at 05/11/2009 @ 8:11pm
I hardly think I would team up with someone I consider an enemy of humanity
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 9:50pm
You mean Journey, not Speedwagon, right? (snicker) Posted by Benchrest at 05/11/2009 @ 3:49pm
oops.
Posted by frosty zoom at 05/11/2009 @ 10:38pm
Seems pretty clear like a threat to me.
Posted by antisocialist at 05/11/2009 @ 4:37pm
ARE YOU KIDDING ME LVL. That wasn't a threat at all. He was saying that if a peace talk does not come inevtiablly someone is going to go to war with Israel. He isn't saying he wants war. He isn't saying he is going to cause war. He is saying war is inevitable if peace is not found. Do you even read these things or do you just glance over them and then make up a meaning? Or do you live in some alternate reality where when the King of Jordan says that the US, Israel and The Arab world need to meet at a table to discuss peace in order to prevent a coming war, that is actually a threat.
You need to rejoin us in reality Anti. Put down whatever darla just handed you.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 05/11/2009 @ 10:47pm
Thank God for the likes of Keith Dayton - it'll certainly be a relief to show the world that America is not 100% Israel's lapdog for a change! So maybe next time Israel wants to go on another hunt for unarmed Palestinians to kill, some of those IDF sadists will learn what it feels like for a change!
Posted by guitar102 at 05/11/2009 @ 10:58pm
'Jordan, considered a key Arab ally of the United States, helps train Iraqi troops and is host to the headquarters of many international aid agencies that pulled relief workers out of Iraq as the insurgency there deepened.'
Hotel blasts kill dozens in Jordan Al-Zarqawi 'prime suspect' in nearly simultaneous suicide attacks
Thursday, November 10, 2005; Posted: 2:42 a.m. EST (07:42 GMT)
CNN Excerpt
Posted by OneVote at 05/11/2009 @ 11:30pm
hey Onevote
You're response is interesting.
If iranian americans are against the american policy of sanctions because it would be detrimental to their ancestoral homeland and their foreign countryman, that is good in your book, even though you attack AIPAC because it allegedly takes positions based on the needs and desires of an ancestoral homeland and foreign countryman.
And you are making common cause with US corporations and European multi-nationals basein their amoral pursuit of profit.
I know consistency and principle can be inconvenient sometimes when it comes to bashing Israel and AIPAC, but this is ridiculous.
Posted by gren at 05/12/2009 @ 08:23am
tell onevote
AIPAC doen not represent any Israeli constituency. Moreover, it could not represent the Israeli constituency because Israel, like all communities, is pluralistic with numerous constituencies whose postions and goals often contradict each other.
The same with both American Jews and Zionism.
AIPAC for the most part represents itself. Usually, but not always, its positions, though not so often its rhetoric, is consistent with that of the majority of American Jews. I think American Judaism is potentially split on the issue of Obama's evident intention to be proactive in mid-east peace negotiations, depending on the substantive positions Obama takes. Interestingly enough, the recent reports that the Palestinians may "modify" their peace demands to "allow" for an internatuionalized Old City appears to reveal that up to now the Palestinians apparently have been demanding sovereignty over the entire Old City. That would be consistent with Israel's complaint that the Palestinians have been unreasonable and unrealistic in peace negotiations. While Obama will need to lean heavy on Netanyahu to offer up all of the Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem, (much of which Livni apparently already had offered up), he will need to lean even heavier on the PA to concede the 5% of the West Bank which contains 4 Israeli urban areas (consistent with the Israeli offer at Taba).
Posted by gren at 05/12/2009 @ 08:37am
Posted by gren at 05/12/2009 @ 08:37am | ignore this person | warn this person
Gren - thanks for your analysis on AIPAC.
My attack on AIPAC? Look....the issue here is AIPAC trying to sell Iranian sanctions as of benefit to America - a stated goal of AIPAC is to try to convince us all that Israel's security interests are precisely our own. Now the Iranian Americans have every right to be concerned about their homeland as do the Zionists - never denied that. But let us call it what it is. The selling of Israel's interests as American interests in order to get US support goes way way beyond the pale.
Posted by OneVote at 05/12/2009 @ 10:47am
Onevote
Whether Iranian sanctions promote a legitimate American interest, as opposed to an Israeli interest, is a fair question to ask. As is my tribal (Jewish) custom, I will answer the question with a question: do you think North Korean sanctions are in America's legitimate interest? If yes, then what is your distinction between North Korea and Iran. If no, then I disagree with you, but I acknowledge and respect your consistency.
Posted by gren at 05/12/2009 @ 11:04am
Onevote
AIPAC and Israel aside, Iran poses a curious and potentially critical question. The possibility that Iran seeks regional hegemony, fueled by both religious and nationalistic fervor, is real. Such Iranian hegemony would not be in America's interest. Certainly we do not know if that is Iran's agenda, but it's substantial support for Hezballah and Hamas is troubling.
I agree that diplomacy is a preferred first option, and that demonizing Iran is counterproductive. However, one should not be blind to the possible threat just because Israel and AIPAC have that perspective.
Posted by gren at 05/12/2009 @ 11:11am
Posted by gren at 05/12/2009 @ 11:11am | ignore this person | warn this person
Well, is North Korea still perceived as a threat? Kim lives high on the hog, and the people suffer.
Cuba - 50 years of sanctions, and nothing to show but suffering of Cuban people. Softening of Cuban policy occassioned by old age of Castro, rather than sanctions.
Nuclear deterrance or Iranian plans for hegemony? So we take out Saddam. What did you expect from Iran? Iraq is on their border for crying out loud.
I believe that a model of economic cooperation with 'recalcitrant' nations will bear more fruit. Harken back to Vietnam era vis a vis China. China is our biggest overseas lender today - self-serving of course, but do you feel threatened by the "Red Menace" today? Our leaders warned of Mao's plans for world hegemony too. Funny that our economic foreign polcy may have facilitated such a peaceful conquest, but do note that it wasn't at the end of a gun barrel.
Posted by OneVote at 05/12/2009 @ 11:56am