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RedditPresident Obama got some strongly worded advice yesterday on how to deal with Israel's Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu, who'll be making his first visit to the United States as Israel's new leader in mid-May. The Obama-Netanyahu meeting promises to be a showdown.
Zbigniew Brzezinski, the veteran strategist and hardliner -- who was Jimmy Carter's national security adviser -- told a conference yesterday that in the history of US peacemaking in the Middle East, the United States has never once spelled out its own vision for what a two-state solution would look like. That, said Brzezinski, is exactly what President Obama needs to do. And fast.
Brzezinski was speaking at a conference on US-Saudi relations sponsored by the New America Foundation and Saudi Arabia's Committee on International Trade. Brzezinski, who advised Obama early in the presidential campaign, was exiled from Obamaland after his less-than-devout support for Israel made him a liability.
"The United States has to spell out the minimum parameters of peace," said Zbig. Perhaps in deference to the conference's Saudi sponsors, Brzezinski said that there is an "urgent need for a US-Saudi alliance for peace in the Middle East." Other speakers on a star-studded opening panel were Chuck Hagel, the former Republican senator from Nebraska and Prince Turki al-Faisal, who served for decades as the head of Saudi Arabia's intelligence service.
Turki, who also served as Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the United States, warned Obama to preempt Netanyahu, who intends to tell the president that there can't be progress in the Israel-Palestine conflict until the United States solves the problem of Iran's pursuit of nuclear weapons to Israel's satisfaction. Obama, said Turki, should tell the Israeli leader: "Mr. Netanyahu, you have to listen to me first." Rita Hauser, the veteran conservative strategist on the panel, agreed: "Netanyahu has to learn very quickly that the president means business."
Hauser, long associated with the RAND Corporation and other thinktanks, also said bluntly that the United States is going to have to deal with Hamas, which she called a "central element" of Palestinian politics. "Hamas will control Gaza," she said. She urged the administration to take steps to encourage the formation of a Palestinian unity government, involving Hamas and Fatah, the central pillar of the old Palestine Liberation Organization.
Obama, said Hauser, will find it politically difficult to talk to Hamas. (Translated: She means that the Israel lobby and its friends in Congress would go ballistic.) So she recommends that Washington encourage the Europeans in their dialogue with Hamas and allow Saudi Arabia to help broker a deal. (Egypt is already trying to swing a Fatah-Hamas deal.) The current chaos in Palestinian circles benefits Israel, she said, and she accused former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of deliberately splintering the Palestinians by withdrawing from Gaza, an action that allowed Gaza to fall to Hamas.
A Hamas-Fatah accord is an important, even crucial, first step in making any progress toward an Israel-Palestine two-state solution, which Obama says he supports strongly -- and which Netanyahu opposes. Getting it done won't be easy, however. At the conference, Turki pointed out that "the popularity of Hamas skyrocketed" after the December-January invasion of Gaza by Israel. "In the eyes of the Palestinians," he said, "Hamas came out a winner." As a result, it might be a lot harder to convince Hamas to make concessions.
But both Saudi Arabia and Egypt, of course, are suspicious of Hamas, not only because of its radicalism but because of its ties to Iran. According to the Egyptians, who are sponsoring talks in Cairo between the two Palestinian factions, Iran is pressing Hamas to resist a deal. Writing in the Wall Street Journal today, Abdel Monem Said Ali of Egypt's premier thinktank said:
After the war [in Gaza] ended, Egypt resumed its efforts to reach a long-term cease-fire. Iran pressured the Hamas leadership to resist. Cairo's ongoing effort to build a Palestinian unity government, by bringing together Fatah and Hamas, has also been undermined by intense Iranian pressure on Hamas.
Obama needs to tell Netanyahu, in public or privately, that he supports a Hamas-Fatah accord and that the United States will deal with a Palestinian unity government. He needs to explain to Netanyahu that he won't be diverted by Israel's alarmist cries about Iran, instead maintaining the focus on the two-state solution. And, as Brzezinksi says, Obama needs to outline his vision for a deal. The world knows what it means: the removal of Israel's illegal settlements in the West Bank, the withdrawal of Israel to its '67 borders, the partition of Jerusalem in some fashion to allow the Palestinians to have their capital in East Jerusalem, and an equitable deal over the Palestinians right-to-return to the former Palestine, involving a hefty financial compensation to those who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 and 1967. The world knows it. Now, Obama has to say it.
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Robert Dreyfuss
A chronicle of America's adventures in foreign policy and national security.
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Hear hear ! At long last some wise words . American policy in the middle east should recognise that even-handedness is the only way to regain the confidence of Arabs, muslims and all fair-minded people .Uncritical support for Israel was seen for what it is;namely, collusion in the occupation ,the apartheid rule, assassinations,home demolitions ,uprooting of olive trees and the land-grabbing Wall. The interets of Israel seemed to come BEFORE not after US interests.A classic example of the tail wagging the body at will. Nobody wants to throw Israelis into the sea. Nobody CAN do it .The Arab-Saudi offer of land for peace and mutual recgnition is on the table since 2002; but there are no takers .Instead of reponding in kind we hear the voices of expansionist Israeli hawks who make more threats and still cry wolf! Israel needs tough love ; because living indefinitely as a fortified garrison is not feasible in the long term.It threatens its own future and endangers the security of those who offer uncritical support .
Posted by KhalidAlmubarak at 04/28/2009 @ 09:12am
So many faults with this article, it's almost too much to respond to.
But let's start with why if Obama actually cares about the ME, he would even listen to Brzezinski who is one of the architechs of the current problem.
Brzezinski set up this current ME mess with his advice on Iran, Israel, and Arafat and the Arabs in Israel.
As to responding to Netenyahu; what Dreyfuss is actually calling for is the president of the US to dictate how another nation conducts it's foreign policy. Fortunately Netenyahu and the Israeli people have shown they care more about survival than to listen to suicidal rantings and demands from other nations.
Then you have this idiot woman Hauser who states that the current Hamas problem is Sharon's fault for giving Gaza to the Arabs. While I certainly agree that giving the Arabs Gaza was stupid, it can hardly be blamed for the resulting violence against both Israel and other Arabs.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 09:33am
Right.
Now how do you move well over 100,000 Israeli "settlers" out of the stolen lands & back within the '67 borders?
They are "established facts" as Moshe Dayan promised they would be. They the death grip on any Israeli govt & via Aipac a death grip on the US.
Any ideas for extrication from that grip?
Posted by sloper at 04/28/2009 @ 09:35am
Any ideas for extrication from that grip?
Posted by sloper at 04/28/2009 @ 09:35am | ignore this person | warn this person
Note that Nitwityahu's visit is strategically timed to follow AIPAC's 2009 Policy conference in early May - in which 2/3 of Congress is anticipated to attend one or more events scheduled over 3 days.
Don't expect any sweeping public pronouncements from BO.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 10:03am
Brzezinski set up this current ME mess with his advice on Iran, Israel, and Arafat and the Arabs in Israel.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 09:33am | ignore this person | warn this person
Care to explain this sweeping generalization in slightly more detail?
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 10:06am
Brzezinski set up this current ME mess with his advice on Iran, Israel, and Arafat and the Arabs in Israel.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 09:33am | ignore this person | warn this person
Care to explain this sweeping generalization in slightly more detail?
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 10:06am
He was the one behind Carter's failure to support the Shah against the Islamic Clerics. That gave us our ongoing problem with Iran.
He again was the chief instigator against Israel during Carter's time in office which has produced the past 30 years of conflict. It was his and Carter's joint anti-semitism that led them to continuously side with the Arabs against the future of Israel and the Jews.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 10:13am
He was the one behind Carter's failure to support the Shah against the Islamic Clerics. That gave us our ongoing problem with Iran.
He again was the chief instigator against Israel during Carter's time in office which has produced the past 30 years of conflict. It was his and Carter's joint anti-semitism that led them to continuously side with the Arabs against the future of Israel and the Jews.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 10:13am | ignore this person | warn this person
Liv.....Israel was selling arms to Iran during the Iran-Iraq War. If removing the Shah was such a threat to Israel, one would think that they wouldn't be selling arms to the Islamic Clerics right?
Carter is anti-semitic? Based on what? Even-handedness? Neutrality would have resolved the Israeli-Palestinian conflict long ago. And, as long as Israel sucks at our nipple, we do have a right to dictate their foreing policy.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 10:29am
As to responding to Netenyahu; what Dreyfuss is actually calling for is the president of the US to dictate how another nation conducts it's foreign policy.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 09:33am
the ironies in this statement have fractal implications.
Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 10:37am
Liv.....Israel was selling arms to Iran during the Iran-Iraq War. If removing the Shah was such a threat to Israel, one would think that they wouldn't be selling arms to the Islamic Clerics right?
Carter is anti-semitic? Based on what? Even-handedness? Neutrality would have resolved the Israeli-Palestinian conflict long ago. And, as long as Israel sucks at our nipple, we do have a right to dictate their foreing policy.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 10:29am
I did not say that removing the Shah was tied in any way to Israel. I noted the effect it had on the US. It was a disasterous position against US security as evidenced first by the taking of the Embassy hostages in '79.
Carter is so anti-semitic and has been thoroughly denounced as such be Christians in this country.
And no, abiding by a treaty agreement in which Israel and Egypt receive US funds does not give us the right to dictate another country's foreign policy. Which other country that is a recipient of the 39 billion we gave in foreign aid in FY2009 do you want to dictate to? Kenya? South Africa? Jordan? the UN? just a few among the many nations and the UN we give foreign aid money to.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 11:06am
So long as Israel, through its American proxies and rich American donors, has such a grip on the executive and legislative branches that the president cannot even appoint his own officials if Israel disapproves of them, and that the president cannot conduct foreign policy with respect to the Middle East and Israel without core members of his own party attempting to derail him, and so long as Israeli spies in the US cannot be prosecuted because congressional officials intervene in prosecutions on their behalf, there is no hope for improvement or positive change vis-a-vis the Israel problem.
Posted by syfriendly at 04/28/2009 @ 11:13am
Dreyfuss as USUAL is WRONG! But the BIGGER QUESTION is whether he is genuinally WRONG as a LEFT-WING Dupe or "Deliberatly" WRONG because: a) He is on somebody's MIDDLE EASTERN" Funded" "PAYROLL" b)He puts his Left-Wing Loyalties ahead of what's right,IN FAVOR of WRONG! c)He is a Vicious Anti-Semitic POS who HATES ISRAEL d) ALL of the above Dreyfuss, What do you see when you look in the mirror?
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 11:14am
" ... Turki, who also served as Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the United States, warned Obama to preempt Netanyahu, who intends to tell the president that there can't be progress in the Israel-Palestine conflict until the United States solves the problem of Iran's pursuit of nuclear weapons to Israel's satisfaction. Obama, said Turki, should tell the Israeli leader: "Mr. Netanyahu, you have to listen to me first." Rita Hauser, the veteran conservative strategist on the panel, agreed: "Netanyahu has to learn very quickly that the president means business." ..."
Basically, Israel is holding any discussion of the Palestinian situation whatsoever hostage to either a US military strike on Iran, or the US greenlighting an Israeli military strike on Iran. Of course, either such strike would melt the entire Persian Gulf region down into a cauldron of violent turmoil, but, hey, this is Israel we're talking about, they seem unable to comprehend a relationship with the rest of their world not defined by unnecessary and epic violence, anyway. However, the point is that Israel's pathological inability to move away from violence and the threat of violence in dealing with its neighbors has become a total obstacle to any progress whatsoever in the region.
I predict that the Obama administration will do nothing to better the situation. They've demonstrated that they will not prosecute Israeli spies, or appoint their own choice of intelligence officials, because Israel's proxy operations in the US in the form of its lobby and its donor and its mass media access are too big of a threat.
Posted by syfriendly at 04/28/2009 @ 11:18am
The harsh reality which will hamper Obama in any confrontation with Netanyahu exists within his own party. Netanyahu, with AIPAC support, can motion to Israel's bulldogs in Congress to turn against Obama and derail his domestic agenda. The Israeli agents in our Congress (The Pelosi, Feinstein, Jane Harman, etc…) have always placed Israel's interest way ahead of the American interest.
It was the indicted Israeli spy master and AIPAC executive, Steven Rosen, who boasted to a friend once: "He (Rosen) pushed a napkin across the table.' you see this napkin?' he said.' in twenty-four hours, we could have the signatures of seventy senators on this napkin"
Israel can rally its servants in Congress on a napkin, or toilet paper to disgrace Obama, if he chooses to confront Netanyahu. Obama knows it and so does Netanyahu.
The late Israeli terrorist and Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, clearly illustrated the Israeli hegemony over America when he sternly lectured his buddy Shimon Peres: "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." --Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (speaking to Shimon Peres, as reported on Israel Radio [in Hebrew, Kol Yisrael], 3 October 2001) The "Obama-Netanyahu showdown" is the wrong term; Obama is too weak and too lonely to confront Netanyahu. AIPAC has turned the US Congress into an Israeli Occupied Territories.
Posted by CripThink at 04/28/2009 @ 11:42am
Dreyfuss aside, Reading the comments of you "Wine/Brie Art Gallery" Liberals, one has to ask some Basic QUESTIONS? a)Do you Liberals have any conception of right and wrong, whether in general or re: Israel and the Jihad against Israel and the West? b)What about the MURDEROUS Palestinians do you find so "Cuddly"?Is it their BRUTALITY? Perhaps the Abuse and "Honor Murders" of their women?,or is it their "Educational Model" of Raising Vicious Murderers(incl. Suicide Bombers)raised on HATRED? c)Perhaps it's their SELF-CREATED Circumstances in which they just REFUSE to accept that they CANNOT and WILL NOT Destroy Israel, but won't stop trying. d)You want to Reward the Arab/Muslim World for being Murderous and Uncompromising, NOT wanting to face the FACT that should they ,with your GLEEFUL Assistance ever, God Forbid, achieve what they want( Israel's destruction,America's Submission and or Conquest and Destruction to follow ), YOU LIBERALS will be FIRST to learn the TRUE meaning of what it means to be a Non-Muslim Dhimmi under their RULE. LIBERALS, You're FRAUDS, claiming to be for , LOL, "Peace and Justice"HA! LIBERAL "EMPERORS": -YOU HAVE NO CLOTHES!!!
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 11:43am
"Sy(anything but)Friendly", You are the "Wine/ Brie"Lefty Dupe PERSONIFIED! Of Course,If you REALLY believe what you post re: Israel, you're a Jew-Hater who DOES NOT want democratic Israel to DEFEND itself from those who try to DESTROY her and her population. Iran and the Palestinian Jihadists they support are the Enemy- Israel is America's most LOYAL FRIEND and ALLY, but you ATTEMPT to TURNSPEAK the REALITY. YOU and The LEFT are NOT on America's or Freedom's SIDE.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 12:02pm
I did not say that removing the Shah was tied in any way to Israel. I noted the effect it had on the US. It was a disasterous position against US security as evidenced first by the taking of the Embassy hostages in '79.
Carter is so anti-semitic and has been thoroughly denounced as such be Christians in this country.
And no, abiding by a treaty agreement in which Israel and Egypt receive US funds does not give us the right to dictate another country's foreign policy. Which other country that is a recipient of the 39 billion we gave in foreign aid in FY2009 do you want to dictate to? Kenya? South Africa? Jordan? the UN? just a few among the many nations and the UN we give foreign aid money to.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 11:06am | ignore this person | warn this person
Oh I see....Zig screwed up the ME because of his advice on Iran, etc., and this has nothing to do with Israel. check.....and I will hold you to it. Israel has had no problem selling arms to Iran to fight Iraq, but now that Iraq has been neutralized beyond ability to even wimper, Israel wants to get after Iran. Very much BS. Israel also has no problem selling arms and technology to China, which in turn provides arms and technology to Iran, which in turn (according to Israel) arms Hamas and Hezbollah.
Christian Zionists calling Carter anti-semite? Liv.....you must be joking? The Cloth is but ass wipe from these zealots.
Military Aid Liv. Do you differentiate between Military Aid and Economic Aid - which Israel has sucked from us for decades. How about providing arms to Pakistan and military aid to Musharraf. No strings attached? How about arms sales to Saudi - no strings attached in that deal?
They don't get our aid when they don't follow OUR WILL.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 12:04pm
antisocialist-Why is it not okay for people to decide what is in a republicans heart,like McCain,but it is okay to decide what is in a democrats heart,like Carter?
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 12:13pm
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 12:02pm
bok!
Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 12:15pm
Israel is America's most LOYAL FRIEND and ALLY
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 12:02pm
actually, that's canada.
Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 12:15pm
Beast"/Snowball666(YES WE KNOW WHAT 666 MEANS), The one(s) who should be getting on a plane are YOU and your fellow Left-Wing Terrorist WORSHIPPERS! You would receive a "WARM" wecome in the "Islamic Republic of Iran" and/or the "Kingdom of Saudi Arabia". Either place would find your Liberal ideas 'charming',(NOT),and they will "encourage" your NON-SHARIA Lifestyle, especially the DRINKING of ALCHOHOL among other Western "customs', Your "Protesting" their treatment of women, any criticism(s) you might have with their Government,its policies,Islam,etc.. You 666 ,and your Fellow Travellers , are the ones who SIDE with America's Enemies!
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 12:22pm
choy-666 means Caesar Nero.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 12:24pm
Frosty Zoom-Snowball? 1 Lefty posing as 2? That's the Left-Wing Way- When they can't convince with Facts, They Dazzle with BS
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 12:30pm
actually,
it's just you and me, choy.
Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 12:33pm
choy-You haven't posted any facts and have just ranted and called people names.By your logic that means that you are a lefty.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 12:37pm
"nobody"- 666 also is code for "THE BEAST"(NOT THE TV PROGRAM), THE "ANTI-CHRIST",et al., and other "mysteries" Google 666 and see what you get.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 12:51pm
choy-Actually,666 comes out to Nero and has nothing to do with any beast.People made that up because they do not know what the word "shortly"means in the first sentence of Revelations and want this to be long term prophesy, even though it isn't.Of course,it would be silly for it to be long term prophesy since we already know how the story ends making the whole thing rather boring and pointless.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 12:56pm
choy-You haven't posted any facts and have just ranted and called people names.By your logic that means that you are a lefty.
Posted by i'm nobody REALLY? What is not factual about THE TRUTH. You LEFT-WINGERS are EXACTLY as I Describe you,and either you know it and are just "Acting Out" or you REALLY ARE DELUSIONAL.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 12:56pm
antisocialist-Why is it not okay for people to decide what is in a republicans heart,like McCain,but it is okay to decide what is in a democrats heart,like Carter?
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 12:13pm
Are you able to distinguish between person decisions and political views that are openly expressed and demonstrated? Evidently not.
Carter has gone out of his way to be dismissive of Israel and the Jews and a sellout to the Arabs.
Unless he repents, he is cursed by G-d for his decisions.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 12:57pm
choy-I'm not a left winger and you have done nothing more than state opinions which have nothing to do with truth.It is your out of control ego that makes you believe that your opinions constitute truth.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 1:01pm
antisocialist-In other words,it is as we said it was and your views on the subject are partisan and hypocritical.Of course,you have no idea if Carter needs to repent or if he is an anti Semite nor can you say what sin he is supposed to repent from nor do you decide who God will curse.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 1:10pm
Carter has gone out of his way to be dismissive of Israel and the Jews and a sellout to the Arabs.
Unless he repents, he is cursed by G-d for his decisions.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 12:57pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Reminds me of The Salem Witch Trials. Carter is guilty of nothing except of having a view different from your own and he must confess and repent of what you accuse him of to be saved from the curse of G-d.
Man....what are you smoking today?
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 1:16pm
couple points on what seems to be an obsession with blaming the American-Israeli relationship for all ills in the ME: 1) to suggest that Israel has a stranglehold on our foreign policy regarding the middle east as it relates to Israel AND ITS IMMEDIATE SURROUNDINGS is absolutely accurate. The judeo-christian lobby sees to that fact, and all one need do is look at our annual budgetary expenditures on Israel. I have many relatives there, but we care for them like a retarded stepchild.
2) However, that same lobby does not have as much power with regards to how we deal with most other countries in that region (Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi). Our unilateralism and recklessness with the Iraq war is the reason we are gun shy right now with regards to iran. Thanks George! Iran has in fact given us much cause for alarm and certainly cause for military action (in this liberal's opinion). But we can't do shit because of the prior administration's fetish with imperialism by way of imposing western democracies on the arab world (google project for a new american century).
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 1:26pm
"nobody" , This is not an "out of control" ego of mine, but rather your Typical Liberal Left-Wing TURNSPEAK. What is TRUTH is that you Wingnuts aren't used to someone coming to one of your 'media" sites and TELLING FACTS! If you choose to pretend you're not a Left-Winger, that's your choice, but if you weren't we wouldn't be having this discussion. Of course , your Definition of Left-Wing may be skewed, if you think you're not. Than of course there is ALWAYS THE POSSIBILITY that you think the Jihad against America,The West, Israel/Jews is not the FASCISM it is.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 1:29pm
choy-I see that you are claiming that you decide what my views are and that I do not get to make that decision for myself based on the beliefs that I know that I have.Claiming that you decide what I believe in is further proof that your ego is out of control.You have yet to post facts and are just claiming that you make all decisions for all people.That is based on ego and not facts or truth.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 1:33pm
Rose, Your relatives, if they exist in Israel, would be ASHAMED of your views. You're ,of course, thanks to America's Freedoms ,Free to have your views , but You're WRONG and your "relatives" would be the first to tell you that, unless they're Jew-Hating/Israel-Hating Palestinian Arabs.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 1:38pm
i have to chime in with the defenders of Jimmy Carter. Have any of you haters even read his books? He is not an anti-semite. He simply approaches the I/P situation from the standpoint of insuring the protection of human rights on both sides. READ THE BOOKS FIRST!!!!! If you don't want to buy them, borrow them from the library.
Theists tend to be so bent on their religious texts, they make not enough time or care for other readings--that is the essence of their ignorance.
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 1:40pm
However, that same lobby does not have as much power with regards to how we deal with most other countries in that region (Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi).
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 1:26pm | ignore this person | warn this person
You joking? Protection of Israel very much part of Iraq occupation. US turning a blind eye to Israeli funding and support of Kurdish guerillas attacking western border Iran and Baluchistan separatists on eastern border isn't supported by AIPAC? What about Israeli operatives plans to destablize Iranian government and assassinate scientists involved with the nuclear development program? AIPAC policy on this issue please? What about Israel's interest in India - they sell arms to India vis a vis Pakistan. You'll remember Mumbai. Afghanistan - are you kidding? Afghanistan is on the eastern border of Iran as I recall. Israeli operatives already in southwestern Afghanistan. Whats happening with embassies under attack in Kabul?
Israel and Iraq have no border disputes, so there is no reason why a state of war should continue to exist between them once Saddam is gone. The opening of an Israeli embassy in Baghdad, and an Iraqi one in Israel, would serve as a tangible sign that a truly post-Saddam era has emerged.
Since the new Iraqi government will owe its very existence to the United States, the Bush Administration will be in a good position to twist its arm on this issue and make it happen.
As the aftermath of the last Gulf War proved, the way forward in the Middle East will not come by forcing Israel to make concessions that threaten its existence. It will come by compelling the Arab states to accept Israel's right to exist, and to finally end their century-long struggle against Jewish self-determination.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 1:47pm
An Israeli embassy in Baghdad? By Michael Freund February 6, 2003
Originally published in the Jerusalem Post.
Cite to above.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 1:48pm
choy-Now you are claiming to speak for peoples relatives that you do not know.You speak only for you and do not speak for that persons relatives,the left,or me.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 1:48pm
"actually,
it's just you and me, choy."
Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 12:33pm Actually it's me AGAINST A Left-Wing '"wolfpack" unless you are a one-person gallery of screen names.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 1:49pm
one other point. to all the religious folks on this blog: If you are blindly faithful, that is to say that you believe first and ask questions later, how is it that this practice of self-imposed blindness does not carry over into your other intellectual pursuits?
if i were blindly faithful of anything, i would be worried that i was always susceptible to blindly accepting non-proveable notions simply because they fit alongside my primary blind-faith-based beliefs. To practice blindness breeds more blindness no?
For example, if my math equations, no matter what the numbers being worked with, always have to equal to 5, how can i endeavor in any sciences where i will undoubtedly need to call on math for help? Just wondering...
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 1:51pm
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 1:40pm | ignore this person | warn this person
And do give us your recitation of the history of Saudi arms deal that we had to get permission from Israel for? Didn't Israel negotiate a new $30 billion dollar aid package over 10 years just for the right of the US to assert its sovereignty. What hogwash you peddle.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 1:53pm
You Lefties ARE TOTALITARIANS-You Brook no opposition, even when the opposition tells the TRUTH. You create your own "truths" and FALSE realities and than insist that those who EXPOSE you are Factless, Clueless, and Egocentric.HA! You Liberals have demonstrated that rather than being the "Highly Intelligent" and "fair"persons you think you are, you're REALLY DELUSIONAL& Easily Led "Sheeple" who are ASSISTING TRUE EVIL !
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 2:03pm
choy-You tell people who they are and what they believe in and then claim that it must be truth because you said so and then you state how you love freedom even though you,also,claim that you decide what everyone believes in, who everyone is,and what truth is.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 2:08pm
Unless he repents, he is cursed by G-d for his decisions.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 12:57pm
everybody knows god hates sweaters.
Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 2:21pm
"actually, it's just you and me, choy."
Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 12:33pm
Actually it's me AGAINST A Left-Wing '"wolfpack" unless you are a one-person gallery of screen names.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 1:49pm
you
are
sharp.
Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 2:23pm
"nobody", You're QUITE the Liberal Turnspeak Artist. First ,it's about my "ego",RATHER than addressing the OBVIOUS Facts that you &and your Left-Wing Fellow travellers choose to deny, because it's easier to create a smokescreen and ATTACK the Messenger, than address the truth that the LEFT is in bed with those who mean the Free World HARM (including the Destruction of Israel). Next you Lefties will Whine about my Typing or use of Capitals ,Anything at all except the real issue(s). Saying Facts aren't Facts is typical Left-Wing Self-Deception. btw, When it comes to ego, nobody has a bigger ego than Left-Wing ELITISTS.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 2:31pm
antisocialist-In other words,it is as we said it was and your views on the subject are partisan and hypocritical.Of course,you have no idea if Carter needs to repent or if he is an anti Semite nor can you say what sin he is supposed to repent from nor do you decide who God will curse.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 1:10pm
1. Genesis 12:2-3 and John 4:22
Without the Jews and Judaism, there is no Christianity. The Jews remain for Christians, G-d's chosen people.
He is one of those whom G-d speaks of in Jeremiah 23:16,17
16 This is what the Lord of Heaven's Armies says to his people:
"Do not listen to these prophets when they prophesy to you, filling you with futile hopes.
They are making up everything they say. They do not speak for the Lord!
17 They keep saying to those who despise my word,
‘Don't worry! The Lord says you will have peace!'
And to those who stubbornly follow their own desires, they say, ‘No harm will come your way!'
2. His support of infanticide
I'm reflecting a widely held opinion of Carter
http://tinyurl.com/dho2jg
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 2:33pm
Sharp enough to figure you out "frosty".
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 2:34pm
choy-You just keep on believing that you decide who I am and what I believe in,but I truly hope that you are not offended when I say that I do not recognize your right to make such decisions and will not go by your decisions.Sorry.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 2:42pm
Carter was such a DISASTER that even Ted Kennedy challenged him for the Democratic nomination in 1980. Carter and Brezinski FACILITATED the Iranian Revolution, in fact they were its midwives. "Jimmy the Dhimmi" is on the Jihadist's PAYROLL. How many copies of his book have been purchased by WEALTHY Middle Eastern Nations? What and WHOM influenced Carter's publisher to Publish his screeds, and who provided the $$$ for Carter's "Advance"? Watch the Lefties TWIST these Legitimate Questions around.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 2:47pm
antisocialist-Carter is anti abortion and we do not know if Judaism was required for Christianity to exist nor do your other quotes mean that Carter is an anti Semite and cursed.Christians do not go by the OT except for those who pick and choose,but such people should be ignored.Christians believe that they are Gods chosen and considering the deal that Christians get compared to others they are correct,if true.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 2:49pm
"nobody", I don't DECIDE! Your posts REVEAL who you are and what you believe.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 2:50pm
Iran has close ties with "secular" Syria, as well as Sunni Hamas. Religious orientation has nothing to do with their support for the Palestinians. The Palestinians have broad support throughout the Islamic world. The Palestinian groups are nationalist, and internal problems in neighboring countries have nothing to do with the Palestinians. While there needs to be reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah, both the Arab Middle East and Iran need to come together to support the Palestinians.
Posted by pjcasey at 04/28/2009 @ 2:52pm
Liberals are Amazing, When any Non-Liberal comes to a Public forum such as this,and begins to state to them what it is they're saying, they CAN'T HANDLE IT! They're ONLY Comfortable spreading their Falsehoods to each other and can't Stand Alone to defend what's UNdefensable, their WRONGHEADED NONSENSE and HATRED.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 2:58pm
choy-What views have I expressed that you claim show political bias?
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 3:08pm
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 2:58pm
choy
Resistance is futile, although don't consider yourself assimilated. We don't want you.
Posted by Sorelish at 04/28/2009 @ 3:15pm
One Vote:
not sure you have really proven that US is truly under some kind of Zionist stranglehold in the totality of US international policy-making. Yes, with regards to certain MID decisions (but most of those are tied to war on terror or the coming rapture).
If you are bothered by the strong lobby, you have the Christian Right to thank for that. Don't blame Israel for reaping the current rewards left to her by the coming rapture. Would you not do the same if you were in Israel's shoes?
Also, of course we allign ourselves with the only true democracy in the middle east. It is a bastion for us from which to push our imperialistic ends, no? It is quite the partnership.
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 3:19pm
CHOY, all you are doing is RANTING. It leaves us nothing with which to work. Do some homework (not bible-based), and come back to us with a strong argument.
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 3:21pm
pjcasey posted: "Iran has close ties with "secular" Syria, as well as Sunni Hamas. Religious orientation has nothing to do with their support for the Palestinians. The Palestinians have broad support throughout the Islamic world." CASEY:HAHAHA! Nothing to do with Religion?? It's EVERYTHING to do with ISLAMIC JIHAD and the Rejection of a Non-Islamic Nation's presence in It's Ancient and Ancestral HOMELAND.
"The Palestinian groups are nationalist, and internal problems in neighboring countries have nothing to do with the Palestinians ."
EXCEPT when they WANT to Blame Israel for Everything,Everywhere. btw, Arabs are considered part of the "Arab Nation" and the "Palestinian Arab" Identity is a post 1967 CONSTRUCT to use as a Weapon against Israel. Sovereignty. The Artificial State is Jordan , which is Majority "Palestinian Arab" ruled by a Hashemite Beduoin "Consolation Prize"(by the British) Monarchy.
"While there needs to be reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah, both the Arab Middle East and Iran need to come together to support the Palestinians."
AND WHY Do You Say that Casey?
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 3:21pm
Maybe more important is for the US to recognize the equality of national aspirations at work, and find out what is important to Palestinians. If it had done so earlier maybe Hamas' electoral victory wouldn't have come as such a surprise. As is, not clear the US has earned much trust among Palestinians, and while accepting the obvious that it requires a unified political government to speak for all sectors of Palestinian society for any real resolution, it may be better for the US to back off and allow regional actors, Turkey or Qatar, mediate.
Charlie M.
Posted by cmsandia at 04/28/2009 @ 3:26pm
Rose, Why don't you Look in the Mirror and ASK yourself where YOUR Moral Compass is? Furthermore,I'll match my Middle East Knowledge with any of you or any other Left-Wing Anti-Israel Hatemongers. Rose, YOU can't take the Truth!
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 3:28pm
"choy-You tell people who they are and what they believe in and then claim that it must be truth because you said so and then you state how you love freedom even though you,also,claim that you decide what everyone believes in, who everyone is,and what truth is."
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 2:08pm
And deep down, they all know it, the ones that come here do... in any case.
I think it is the only way they know of to be validated.
Posted by V at 04/28/2009 @ 3:29pm
antisocialist-Carter is anti abortion and we do not know if Judaism was required for Christianity to exist nor do your other quotes mean that Carter is an anti Semite and cursed.Christians do not go by the OT except for those who pick and choose,but such people should be ignored.Christians believe that they are Gods chosen and considering the deal that Christians get compared to others they are correct,if true.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 2:49pm
Every time you comment on Judaism and Christianity, you reveal more ignorance about both. You absolutely know next to nothing about either from what I've seen in your responses over the past few years.
I will grant you though on Carter that I've found some more recent comments where he has changed his tune on abortion. But that wasn't always his position. In fact during the 76 campaign he ran both ways on the issue depending on who he was addressing. Nor did he begin speaking out against his party's position until very recently. He always endorse the Dem platform previously.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 3:34pm
Choy, you keep using cliche ideas to make your points and sometimes your points are just invective vitriolic spew. My moral compass, as you put it, is my business. Secondly, i am a jewish born American with Israeli ties, so my opinion counts for more than just liberal talking points. Thirdly, and follow this point closely please, just as questioning the actions of the third reich does not mean a hatred of all Germans, or calling the actions of the Bush administration criminal and punishable by an international war crimes tribunal, does not equate to hatred of Americans, it is NECESSARY to challenge the actions of the Israeli government with regards to all maters we have laid out on the table. Read the Toyota principles. good book. Successful entities are not afraid to criticize themselves.
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 3:37pm
V, They think this and other Left-Wing Sites are Cyber Wine and Brie Parties in an On-Line "Art Gallery"and they MUST Validate Their "views"to each other, as you say.Liberals DO NOT Tolerate opposition partly because they won't let Truth get in the way of Their Agenda. Also, since Real Facts and Morality is AGAINST these Liberal Cretins, their Deflections and Sideshows are all they have left. They Literally keep trying to shove Square Pegs in Round Holes and give their $#!_ credibility with their Elitism.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 3:44pm
antisocialist-I realize that you believe that all who disagree with you are ignorant,but that view is based on arrogance and ego and not reality.As I have told you numerous times and as I have proven numerous times I do know what Jewish and Christian beliefs are,but as I have stated numerous times to you I have arrived at a different view from yours based on obeying Jesus and seeking the truth.Like the Jews and others I do not see Jesus in the OT and for that reason am not sure that Jesus has anything to do with the OT or Judaism.That view is based on reading the OT over 50 times cover to cover while studying to convert to Judaism..Jesus said- "the way is narrow and few would find it" and you keep repeating the views that the overwhelming majority have.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 3:49pm
choy, "literally" means literally. so no, we don't literally try to shove square pegs in round holes. it is just far more satisfying to argue with people who can demonstrate a good command of the language. This good command of which i speak, generally indicates a high level of study or book reading--or both. By your frequent use of the word "elitism" and your poor use of grammar, you have shown your colors and i think we are duly unimpressed with your uneducated, lazy and bible-based arguments. That is the crux of it, dude. nothing personal, just go get a decent college education, or read some books on the issues before you babble away your gut-based ideas.
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 3:51pm
Rose, If you're a "friend" of Israel, than God HELP HER. IF you're a Jewish born American with Israeli "ties" than you FLOUT that to give your ANTI-ISRAEL LEFT-WING Hate Propaganda FALSE "credibility". You really SHOULD check your MORAL COMPASS, for you think that TURNING AGAINST your OWN Flesh and Blood's Fight for SURVIVAL is "right" Tell me Rose, HOW DO YOU FACE the Mirror?
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 3:54pm
Rose, Rose, Rose, Command of the "language". You are truly an Elitist. I'll match my command of the English Language with yours anyday,and NO I'm certainly not HIDING in a University, PROTECTED by Tenure, Poisoning minds Like many on this Forum may be, you included. When you "LEFT-WING Academics" can't convince with False Facts, you start to play English 101/102. Rose, I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you this, but no matter how much you go against YOUR OWN, the LESS Respect your fellow Lefties Really Have For You
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 4:06pm
I'm glad you've chosen to expose yourself to the group, Choy.
Let's see, is it blind patriotism, blind nationalism or blind religious furvor that is most clouding you? i say maybe all three.
As for me, i believe in the integrity of the human collective to work towards a common goal. There is no evidence to support the "Flesh and Blood" credo, with regards to defending the father or motherland from outside influence. Unless of course you are Nazi Germany.
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 4:09pm
Let's just hope our Dear Leader shows a little more courage than he did standing up (or NOT) to the bankers, capitalistas and their media enablers. With Obama and Satan in the ring, my money is going with Satan.
Posted by DejaVu at 04/28/2009 @ 4:11pm
i care not what my "fellow Lefties" think of me with regards to my opinions being different at times. That is the beauty of being a lefty. we answer to no one. If you noticed how i treated the objections raised to me by "One Vote", you can conclude that I respect his opinions and facts to the point of letting go somewhat of the debate with him. His homework on the issue of Israel having the US in its pocket is quite heady. I will have to research further to approach him again. So you see, liberals can disagree and still respect eachother. You on the other hand love a good leader to follow. We, not so much. We would rather read the facts as they exist in totality and slowly come to judgement thereafter. Some of these traits are admittedly also a problem, as evidenced by our frequent inability to come together as a party successfully. Praise be to Obama, that may change for the near future. But don't dismiss school. it teaches you how to think critically beyond what your gut asks of you.
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 4:21pm
As to responding to Netenyahu; what Dreyfuss is actually calling for is the president of the US to dictate how another nation conducts it's foreign policy. Fortunately Netenyahu and the Israeli people have shown they care more about survival than to listen to suicidal rantings and demands from other nations.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 09:33am | ignore this person | warn this person
Antisocialist-- When Obama speaks to Netenyahu he will be speaking about U.S. foreign policy and cancelling the right wing Israelis their blank check to carryout their state-sponsored terrorism. A two-state solution it will be!!!
Posted by rnewby at 04/28/2009 @ 4:22pm
. A two-state solution it will be!!!
Posted by rnewby at 04/28/2009 @ 4:22pm
It happened over 60 years ago. The arab state that was formed in Palestine is now called Jordan. There will be no further dividing of Israel.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 4:30pm
Rnewby: I think we really ought to reconsider the position that Israel carries out state-sponsored terrorism. That is entirely one-sided and misses the entirety of the political and cultural history of the conflict. Israel has been up against a politically mandated annihalation of the jews in israel, by the palestinians for a long time--and now with hamas. If the Native American Indians tried that with us now, we would wipe them out over night and we could make a good argument to do so. All things being equal, i think Israel has the right to demolish the homes of suicide bombers and inflict severe blows at times. I also think it is deploreable that Jewish settlements go up in border areas to incite violence. But this is not a one-sided issue!
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 4:30pm
If anybody wonders if Mr. Peanut, Jimmy Carter, is anti-Semitic, read his book "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid"
Then you will know he is anti-Semitic.
I read the book a couple of months ago. It is one-sided, biased and distorted.
Carter obsesses about perceived "wrongs" against the Palestinians, but doesn't spend much time or concern on Israelis being murdered by homicide bombers. He lumps those things in his "concern" about Middle East violence.
Thus Carter hyper-concentrates on Palestinian claims that Palestinian farmers produce rots while waiting to go through border crossings, but doesn't pay a whole lot of attention to Israelis being blown up while eating lunch in a pizzeria.
There is not a whole lot of balance to that book, nor is there any balance at all in Mr. Peanut's mind.
Posted by sjchermak at 04/28/2009 @ 5:09pm
Rose , I don't DISMISS School, REAL SCHOOL. I even WENT to College. What the Left-Wing Infiltration of Academia is DOING is Indoctrinating(BRAINWASHING) Left-Wing Anti-American, Anti-Israel(also in many cases Anti-Semitic)Falsehoods into Tommorow's Leaders. It's BECAUSE of my knowledge of these Wingnut's that I say what I DO. They can't stand their ground in any FACTUAL Argument, but Academia is a Nice, Safe ,and Sheltered "Base" to Attack us from Within, and claim that their ON-PAPER credentials maketheir nonsense any more credible .
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 5:10pm
Rose, Your response to "rnewby" means that you may not be admitted to the next Art Gallery Wine/Brie Gathering because even you realize that the ONLY satisfactory outcome for the Arab/Iranian/Muslim Jew-Haters is for Israel to disappear. If you made your views on favoring Israel's existence OFF-LINE in Real World, the Lefties would OSTRACIZE you, because they DEMAND 100% Lockstep.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 5:22pm
One Vote:
not sure you have really proven that US is truly under some kind of Zionist stranglehold in the totality of US international policy-making. Yes, with regards to certain MID decisions (but most of those are tied to war on terror or the coming rapture).
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 3:19pm
Your argument was that 'The Lobby' didn't have much influence outside of Israel's immediate neighbors. Now you appear willing to concede that it extends beyond "immediate neighbors." While Christian Zionists are supportive of AIPAC, they are but a cog in wheel of Zionists and not a primary reason for AIPAC's inordinate influence. This inordinate influence predates the war on terror, and in fact, we were trying to undermine Iraq long before 9/11. GWOT is cover Neoconservative Doctrine which was largely hatched by those with alliance to AIPAC. Take a look at founding members of PNAC. This organization existed prior to 9/11.
Don't talk to me about alliance with the Middle East's only democracy. This is an AIPAC and Israeli sales pitch for support that I don't buy in to. This statement is filled with utter hypocrisy. For instance, Israel thought it would be wonderful to establish an embassy in Iraq as long as George Bush held a gun at the head of Iraq's puppet government. Come on - you aren't fooling anyone with this logic.
Nazi felt they were justified too. If you were a Nazi, would you have done the same? Remember, Jews declared economic war on Hitler through boycott designed to bring him down first. If I were a Zionist zealot, I suppose that I would do anything I could get away with. Just don't drag me and my country along with you. And don't ask for my tax dollars, or military support.
I have given you facts - where are yours?
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 5:38pm
I emplore other lefties here to respond to Choy's claim above. That is absurd, as i am a thinking, breathing lefty surrounded by other lefties who accept me AND my differences IN REAL WORLD SITUATIONS. Jeez.
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 5:39pm
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 4:30pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I do appreciate that you are a more reasoned supporter of Israel, i.e., Carter, and recognition of extremist religious elements fueling the ideology behind the insanity. That is a positive in this debate.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 5:44pm
Nazi felt they were justified too. If you were a Nazi, would you have done the same? Remember, Jews declared economic war on Hitler through boycott designed to bring him down first. If I were a Zionist zealot, I suppose that I would do anything I could get away with. Just don't drag me and my country along with you. And don't ask for my tax dollars, or military support.
I have given you facts - where are yours?
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 5:38pm
Racism will always reveal itself sooner or later.
here we have another racist making the pitch that the Jews deserved to die in the ovens because supposedly they declared economic war on Hitler.
So when during the 1920's when he wrote Mein Kampf did the Jews declare economic war on Hitler? Right after he got out of prison?
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 5:47pm
Rose, Your response to "rnewby" means that you may not be admitted to the next Art Gallery Wine/Brie Gathering because even you realize that the ONLY satisfactory outcome for the Arab/Iranian/Muslim Jew-Haters is for Israel to disappear. If you made your views on favoring Israel's existence OFF-LINE in Real World, the Lefties would OSTRACIZE you, because they DEMAND 100% Lockstep.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 5:22pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Choy.....your nonsense is the very underpinings of anti-semitism that has grown by leaps and bounds since 2006 Lebanon and 2008/2009 Gaza. You are the true anti-semite, and manys Jews outside of Israel and New York recognize this. You are not going to win this game. You are vastly outnumbered, and your day will come. You had better make peace now, rather than later.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 5:55pm
So when during the 1920's when he wrote Mein Kampf did the Jews declare economic war on Hitler? Right after he got out of prison?
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 5:47pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Check out the website JewsAgainstZionism Mr. Preacher. They are the ones who acknowledge this - and they fix much of the blame of atrocity on Jews squarely on the shoulders of Zionists, and extremist ex-military rabble rousers like yourself who live with the guilt of their crimes against humanity ordered by their government, but seek new adventure, vicariously or otherwise, inciting others to violent acts supposedly under the auspices of G-d. Shameful. Seek help Liburty.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 6:01pm
KEEP "IMPLORING",Rose. It will get you nowhere. You're OUT of Lefty Lockstep only in that you Support Israel's "Right to Exist" and you'll see your fellow Liberals will prove me accurate -That's why you're 'Imploring', BECAUSE you Know I'm correct. You're with them, but they're NOT with you. Time for that LOOK in the MIRROR ,Rose. You're Lefty Friends are ONLY your Friends WHEN you Agree with them, and the issue of Israel's Existence is where the" Rubber meets the Road". Rose ,Time to face the facts, It's not Only between Left and Right, But between Right and Wrong(Left).
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 6:01pm
choy-I have friends and a wife who call themselves lefties,but they do not require that I agree with them in order to be married to me or to be my friend.Same goes with people who call themselves righties.I get along with them,too even when we disagree.Many of you just do not know how to play well with others.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 6:06pm
choy-If you study a little history you'll discover that neither side is always right.In fact,people who have all left wing or all right wing views are never right about much of anything.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/28/2009 @ 6:13pm
one vote:
a good deal of reading between the lines informs your seemingly definite outcomes. I favor skepticism over certainty when dealing in matters of who funded who and when. Recall Obama and his obvious ties to the Weather Underground. With regards to your "not buying into" israel as the lone western democracy in the ME, not sure what "facts" support your claim to the contrary. Israel is a functioning western democracy about as religious as Massacheussetts on a Sunday. Palestinians, while de facto treated like blacks in the Boston 70's, actually have a voice in parliament and the full right to vote in elections. The number of Palestinians in Israel is roughly 1 million. That is 1 in 6.
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 6:14pm
"Choy.....your nonsense is the very underpinings of anti-semitism that has grown by leaps and bounds since 2006 Lebanon and 2008/2009 Gaza. You are the true anti-semite, and manys Jews outside of Israel and New York recognize this. You are not going to win this game. You are vastly outnumbered, and your day will come. You had better make peace now, rather than later."-"OneVote" posted
HAHAHAHA-Lmao Congratulations ,OneVote", for Providing a LIVING EXAMPLE of "TURNSPEAK" Who ARE you trying to fool,"OneVote"? Incidentally, "OneVote", the Sun still rises in the East and Sets in the West ,unless the Left can TURNSPEAK that also. Lebanon 2006 and Gaza were BOTH LEGITIMATE Cases of Israeli Self-Defense and YOU KNOW It? "You are not going to win this game. You are vastly outnumbered, and your day will come."-"OneVote"says Hmmm, that's mighty "Liberal". Tell us "OneVote", did you ONLY cast one vote,or was it One per Polling Place thanks to ACORN?
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 6:21pm
oh jeez, choy. lest we forget the 5 to 4 decision to elect bush by the supreme court.
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 6:24pm
And ACORN only worked to get people to the polls and registered. it is the precincts that ensure no doubling up occurs. what does ACORN have to do with that???
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 6:26pm
Rose, I'm sorry that you can SEE that Your Fellow Lefties Aren't Rising in your Defense. Why? Because you SUPPORT Israel's "Right to Exist". Everything said about Left-Wing Scum is TRUE!
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 6:28pm
The Neocons tried to drum up anti-ACORN sentiment nearing the elections to generate fear and skepticism of that group. It backfired. ha!
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 6:28pm
Okay, LEFTIES...
Chime in...
Israel have no right to exist?
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 6:31pm
Rose, You're STILL being Delusional.
"And ACORN only worked to get people to the polls and registered"-you say.
Yes , Illegal&Fraudulant Registrations being brought out to vote. One example: The kid in Cleveland who said on Tv that ACORN paid him to register 762x.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 6:33pm
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 6:14pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Nothing so complicated as Palestinian second class citizenship....though we could certainly debate on that issue.
Democracy - is democracy inherently good?
We are a democracy - are we inherently good when our democracy is ruled by moneyed elite? Isn't this the same thing as sham elections?
We are a democracy, and we have done some pretty outrageous and heinous things.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 6:33pm
Rose, Their SILENCE is DEAFENING!
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 6:34pm
How many times did 'One Vote" Vote?In how many places?
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 6:37pm
give them time, silly.
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 6:39pm
"We are a democracy, and we have done some pretty outrageous and heinous things."-"OneVote"posted "OneVote" is an AMERICA-HATING cretin who wouldn't be Free to spout the Hatred for his own country that he does if we weren't.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 6:42pm
Very accurate assessment of the problems at hand Mr. Dreyfuss. Brzezinski being removed from the mix (and the addition of Dennis Ross to, of all things, dealing with Iran) shows just how much our foreign policy in the Mideast is dictated by a foreign state's lobby. I've had the displeasure of hearing Dennis Ross speak at an NYU panel and he had talking points that sounded exactly like Israeli rightwing Likudniks, militaristic and alarmist to the point of making chicken little look like sgt. rock. Ross was, not surprisingly, crushed by his better equipped opponents in the discussion including Rashid Khalidi (yes, the same prof. whom that dimbulb Palin denounced, not knowing that her boy McCain had 'palled around' with him in the past as well). Let's keep in mind a few things here, Iran's leadership lives off of demonizing the US, which they find hard to do now as they want to stay in power. Israel's the easy target simply due to their own imperialist behavior. IF Israel accepts the Arab League proposal or its near equivalent, Iran's leaders lose big-time. One would think the frothing at the mouth alarmists would see this as a benefit, but as is usual with the neo-con mold, they prefer to do things the hard and ineffective way, 'bomb, bomb, bomb Iran'. It may also be the case that Obama will wait until a 2nd term before doing something radical like actually putting pressure on the Israelis as well as the Palestinians, something that hasn't been done since the first Bush administration oddly enough.
Posted by nukemind at 04/28/2009 @ 6:46pm
give them time, silly.
Posted by Rose52775 at 04/28/2009 @ 6:39pm | ignore this person | warn this person
well....dictatorships can change with time to.......given time.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 6:47pm
Rose, I'm sorry you have to face this UGLY TRUTH about the Left. Believe me, I learned about them a long time ago. The old Liberal Democratic Party was a Patriotic Party that Stood with our Allies, but it's been slowly getting to this NEW LEFT/"Progressive" Party that is George McGovern's CURSED Legacy.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 6:48pm
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 6:42pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Don't confuse love of country with love of its ruling elite. The two are very different. True Patriots realize this.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 6:50pm
Check out the website JewsAgainstZionism Mr. Preacher. They are the ones who acknowledge this - and they fix much of the blame of atrocity on Jews squarely on the shoulders of Zionists, and extremist ex-military rabble rousers like yourself who live with the guilt of their crimes against humanity ordered by their government, but seek new adventure, vicariously or otherwise, inciting others to violent acts supposedly under the auspices of G-d. Shameful. Seek help Liburty.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 6:01pm
I see you couldn't bring yourself to defend your statement.
How could the Jews declare war on a rabble rouser just coming out of prison who had no position in govt and no power?
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 6:55pm
NOTE*-"OneVote" WON'T answer how many VOTES he/she cast. So in THIS Lefty "paradise" ,Rose still WAITS for A Lefty to support her in her RIGHTFUL Support of Israel's "Right to Exist",but their Silence is Deafening and "OneVote" continues to AVOID the Question of whether or not He/She only Voted Once.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 6:57pm
I see you couldn't bring yourself to defend your statement.
How could the Jews declare war on a rabble rouser just coming out of prison who had no position in govt and no power?
Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 6:55pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Check the website I gave you. You are avoiding the issue - again.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 7:29pm
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 6:57pm | ignore this person | warn this person
One person - one vote = democracy.
2% of persons - controlling majority of the US domestic population on foreign policy in the Middle East = de facto dictatorship.
Don't tell me you love democracy and America. You love the fact that our politicians can be bought and controlled so easily.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 7:35pm
'This charismatic individual, the Rebbe of Satmar, Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, did not mince any words. Straight to the point he called Zionism "the work of Satan", "a sacrilege" and "a blasphemy". He forbade any participation with anything even remotely associated with Zionism and said that Zionism was bound to call the wrath of G-d upon His people. He maintained this stance with unwavering bravery from the onset of Zionism whilst he was still in Hungary up until his death in New York where he lead a congregation numbering in the hundreds of thousands. Grand Rabbi Teitelbaum, scion to a legacy of holy mystics and Hassidic Masters unfortunately had his prediction fulfilled. We lost more than six million of our brothers, sisters, sons and daughters in a very horrible manner. This, more than six million holy people had to experience as punishment for the Zionist stupidity. The Holocaust, he wept, was a direct result of Zionism, a punishment from G-d.'
THE ROLE OF ZIONISM IN THE HOLOCAUST Article by Rabbi Gedalya Liebermann - Australia - Excerpt from JewsAgainstZionism
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 7:45pm
choy, your posts reveal you to be a complete nitwit. for sake of settling your puerile argument, I would like to go on record as having left-of-center politics, and also supporting israel's right to exist. so kindly shut up about your stupid obsession with how lockstep everyone is who reads the Nation.
Posted by canaro71 at 04/28/2009 @ 7:50pm
Isn't choy some kind of vegetable?
Posted by ficheye at 04/28/2009 @ 8:17pm
I'm bringing out the TRUE Lefty Face: "choy, your posts reveal you to be a complete nitwit. OF COURSE THEY DO IN YOUR LIBERAL 'TURNSPEAK' WORLD.MY BAD FOR SPEAKING TRUTH TO LUNACY. AND LIKE ALL LEFT-WINGERS , WHEN YOU CAN'T SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENT,YOU RESORT TO NAME CALLING AND ATTEMPT TO BELITTLE THE "INTELLIGENCE'OF THOSE WHO SEE RIGHT THROUGH YOU!
for sake of settling your puerile argument, I would like to go on record as having left-of-center politics, and also supporting israel's right to exist. so kindly shut up about your stupid obsession with how lockstep everyone is who reads the Nation." IT CERTAINLY TOOK LONG ENOUGH. SO YOU AND ROSE SEE WHAT COMPANY YOU'RE IN. BTW, THE ONLY ONES IN LOCKSTEP ARE THE LEFT-WING, GOOSE-STEPPING IN LOCKSTEP TO BE EXACT!
Posted by canaro71 Isn't choy some kind of vegetable?"ficheye"posted
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 9:08pm
"Isn't choy some kind of vegetable?"-ficheye posted.
Now here's another Liberal, whose screen name is a CLEVERLY spelled slur on Asians. Guess WHAT? Liberals AREN'T REALLY Liberal ,in the Classic sense.
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 9:14pm
One can be sure that the ONLY Rabbi "OneVote"would ever quote is one who sides with his OWN People's Enemies because he opposes Israel's Re-Birth before the "Coming of the Messiah".
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 9:51pm
Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 9:51pm | ignore this person | warn this person
There are a few more I could quote if you would like.
Who would have guessed that the Messiah would come back as a Snow Cabbage!
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 10:14pm
Congress looks to bolster Iran sanctions Congress moves to give Obama more sanctions leverage against Iran Matthew Lee, Associated Press Writer On Tuesday April 28, 2009, 9:17 pm EDT
'WASHINGTON (AP) -- Congress is taking up a bipartisan proposal which would give the Obama administration more leverage over Iran by toughening economic sanctions on foreign oil and shipping firms that aid Tehran.
A group of Democrats and Republicans introduced legislation Tuesday that would give the president expanded authority to crack down on companies that export gasoline and other refined petroleum products to Iran.
The Senate bill is expected to pass because it has broad support from both Republicans and Democrats and is not opposed by the White House. A similar bill is expected to be introduced in the House.
Administration officials have signaled they would not block the proposal despite recent U.S. overtures to Iran. President Barack Obama and senior U.S. diplomats have directly appealed for Iran to cooperate in talks over the country's nuclear buildup, but Tehran has veered between interest and rejection.
Despite its own large oil reserves, Iran now imports as much as 40 percent of its gasoline because it has limited capacity to refine crude oil.'
Oh yeah...."The Lobby" doesn't wag the dog.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 10:29pm
Now here's another Liberal, whose screen name is a CLEVERLY spelled slur on Asians. Guess WHAT? Liberals AREN'T REALLY Liberal ,in the Classic sense. Posted by choy at 04/28/2009 @ 9:14pm
You'll have to tell me what the hell you are talking about. Is fish eye an asian slur? If so, I've never heard it and I have a lot of asian friends.
I've had this name for years and never thought about it being a slur on Asians. My original thoughts were about combining the word 'microfiche' with the word 'eye'. To say that it's a slur just shows you to be oversensitive to the issue. And there are so many weird names here that I didn't even think you were asian, if you really are.
Having a sense of humor really helps things along here. Your hatred is palpable even before you know where someone stands. Relax and you may get into some lively debates. And the use of capital letters signifies SHOUTING, which won't really get you into any reasonable discourse either.
Posted by ficheye at 04/28/2009 @ 10:57pm
"ficheye" Thanks for interperting your Sn. Yes, in that other spelling , it is an Anti-Asian slur.
Posted by choy at 04/29/2009 @ 01:08am
@choy: shut the f**k up you dumb nitwit. People like you should have been thrown of a cliff at birth. Get your blueberry picking ass back to your mountain cabin and go wank of to your Palin2012 poster. You are the reason why people are pro choice.
Posted by blowfly at 04/29/2009 @ 08:48am
Check the website I gave you. You are avoiding the issue - again.
Posted by OneVote at 04/28/2009 @ 7:29pm
I read it and it still doesn't support your accusation.
Hitler wrote Mein Kampf which included his plans for the Jews approx 8 years before the Jewish boycott.
So the point and the question remains:
How could a guy with no power, no position, inflame the Jews and what were they attacking in 1925? (BTW, they didn't attack anyone in 1925).
Posted by antisocialist at 04/29/2009 @ 09:49am
"@choy: shut the f**k up you dumb nitwit. People like you should have been thrown of a cliff at birth. Get your blueberry picking ass back to your mountain cabin and go wank of to your Palin2012 poster. You are the reason why people are pro choice."
Posted by blowfly
HAHAHAHA! Now THERE is the Left-Wing "mind". Blowfly, the BEST part of YOU ran down your mother's leg!
Posted by choy at 04/29/2009 @ 10:10am
James Lazar
I caanot understand how persons who claim to be American citizens forward the interests of a foreign dependent state ahead of their own. Many of your semi-literate correspondents seem to have nothing to sy except to accuse anyone who criticizes Israel's racist policies as being anti -semitic. I am sure Joseph Goebbels will be rolling in his grave when he realises that the best students of his are the Isreali staters First.
Posted by JamesLazar at 04/29/2009 @ 10:32am
HAHAHAHA! Now THERE is the Left-Wing "mind". Blowfly, the BEST part of YOU ran down your mother's leg! Posted by choy at 04/29/2009 @ 10:10am | What people like you don't understand is the fact that your dualist view on everything isn't going to resolve anything. Your "either you are with us or against us" philosophy has never made any sense and only reinforce my view of your hillbilly, guntouting, beerdrinking, bible quoting personality. While people are actually having a meaningful debate which others enjoy to follow, you come here with no arguments and no brain what so ever. You speak about "truth", well to say it in the words of a character you can relate to "you can't handle the truth". Being critical of Israeli policies does not equal anti-Semitism. Being critical of either Bush or Obamas policies does not mean one is more or less patriotic. Those selfish Palestinians don't realise what great neighbours they have, right. You need people to tell you what to think since you have zero capabilities to find out anything on your own, nor do you have any analytical capacities. Or wait, maybe god speaks to you directly as well. I guess so since your arguments consist solely on emotional rantings which basically come down to "we're good, you're evil". People like you deserve no respect whatsoever.
Posted by blowfly at 04/29/2009 @ 10:55am
while criticizing Israel is not necessarily anti-semiticism, blaming the Jews for the Nazi assault on Jews and the Holocaust is a most dispicable vile racism. It saddens me that there was not an outcrying here against One Vote's descent to a level even lower than his usual indecent perch. For those who are interested in facts instead of anti-Jewish propoganda, see the following :
http://www.ajhs.org/publications/chapters/chapter.cfm?documentID=230
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 12:02pm
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 12:02pm
Then you unfortunately missed my repeated debunking of Onevote on his dispicable charge.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/29/2009 @ 12:06pm
tell antisocialist
Sorry. I was not clear. I appreciated your response, but given the "camp" you are in, that was a given. It is those who criticise Israel and American Zionists, often unfairly and in the most prejudicial terms, but who clainm that their criticism is not tainted by anti-Jewish prejudice, that I was addressing. None of those individuals protested at all at the disgusting libel. Imagine the response to a comment that blacks asked to be lynched by protesting Jim Crow laws. But blaming the Jews for Nazi attrocities ruffles no feathers here.
And that is why Jewish supporters of Israel consider much of the criticism against Israel and American Zionists in this space as tainted with anti-semiticism.
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 12:29pm
Remember, Jews declared economic war on Hitler through boycott designed to bring him down first.
complete nonsense, one
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 12:52pm
But blaming the Jews for Nazi attrocities ruffles no feathers here.
not so.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 1:09pm
It saddens me that there was not an outcrying here against One Vote's descent to a level even lower than his usual indecent perch.
don't worry. it was only because I had not arrived on the scene.
one vote is just another lunatic who's message is: "the jews did it".
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 1:12pm
emile-I do not read one votes stuff ever since I tried to talk sense to him about his conspiracy theories.Waste of time.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/29/2009 @ 1:16pm
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/29/2009 @ 1:16pm | ignore this person | warn this person
makes sense to me. sometimes I forget who's who, with all the pseudonyms and all.
choy is quite a piece of work too. whattajerk.
I came to this thread after seeing the media matters montage of Fox Obama bashing, wait, not bashing, tinkling on his shoes.
this thread struck me the same way.
don't miss that video, folks.
I think that tea bag stunt should result in their license being revoked. not in the public interest.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 1:27pm
emile-Choy is one of those who likes to call people names and does so on here because it's safer than to do so face to face.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/29/2009 @ 1:31pm
there are two issues that turn up the temperature here, Israel and abortion.
what fun. er, not
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 1:32pm
yes. I saw no "facts" at all, only nyah, nyah.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 1:34pm
A note to "antisocialist" and all other "friends of Israel": Constant use of the term "anti-semitic" in regard to anyone who doesn't agree with Israel 100% is anti-productive in dealing with real issues of anti-Semitism. It is akin to "crying wolf." Furthermore, using this term so loosely only serves to render any argument or ideals that you are trying to support as mere static or noise...
Posted by Saoud at 04/29/2009 @ 1:54pm
How could a guy with no power, no position, inflame the Jews and what were they attacking in 1925? (BTW, they didn't attack anyone in 1925).
Posted by antisocialist at 04/29/2009 @ 09:49am | ignore this person | warn this person
If you bothered to read the date in question was 1933. My "despicable charge"..........that is rich.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 2:10pm
It saddens me that there was not an outcrying here against One Vote's descent to a level even lower than his usual indecent perch.
don't worry. it was only because I had not arrived on the scene.
one vote is just another lunatic who's message is: "the jews did it".
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 1:12pm | ignore this person | warn this person
JR....you might try disputing the factual basis of what I (Jews Against Zionism) asserted instead of attributing Jewish anti-zionism to anti-semitism.
'The war by the international Jewish leadership on Germany not only sparked definite reprisals by the German government but also set the stage for a little-known economic and political alliance between the Hitler government and the leaders of the Zionist movement who hoped that the tension between the Germans and the Jews would lead to massive emigration to Palestine. In short, the result was a tactical alliance between the Nazis and the founders of the modern-day state of Israel - a fact that many today would prefer be forgotten.'
The Jewish Declaration of War on Nazi Germany The Economic Boycott of 1933
Article from The Barnes Review, Jan./Feb. 2001, pp. 41-45. The Barnes Review, 645 Pennsylvania Ave SE, Suite 100, Washington D.C. 20003, USA.
The context of my statement was an exchange with Rose that postulated the hypothetical that if I were a Zionist, wouldn't I do the same (atrocities, land grab, espionage, assassinations, etc.). I stated that perhaps I would, and that in the same vein, Hitler likely felt justified in his actions against Jews who plotted against him and nascent Nazi Germany. Note that the economic boycott was designed to invoke hardship on all Germans, not just Nazi, similar to the Palestinian plight.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 2:22pm
'The war by the international Jewish leadership on Germany...
war? how many tanks, how many planes, how many U-boats?
see? complete nonsense.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 2:32pm
OneVote-Are you trying to compare a boycott with the holocaust?
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/29/2009 @ 2:33pm
'According to The Daily Express of London of March 24, 1933, the Jews had already launched their boycott against Germany and her elected government. The headline read "Judea Declares War on Germany - Jews of All the World Unite - Boycott of German Goods - Mass Demonstrations." The article described a forthcoming "holy war" and went on to implore Jews everywhere to boycott German goods and engage in mass demonstrations against German economic interests. According to the Express:
The whole of Israel throughout the world is uniting to declare an economic and financial war on Germany. The appearance of the Swastika as the symbol of the new Germany has revived the old war symbol of Judas to new life. Fourteen million Jews scattered over the entire world are tight to each other as if one man, in order to declare war against the German persecutors of their fellow believers.
The Jewish wholesaler will quit his house, the banker his stock exchange, the merchant his business, and the beggar his humble hut, in order to join the holy war against Hitler's people.'
The Jewish Declaration of War on Nazi Germany The Economic Boycott of 1933
Article from The Barnes Review, Jan./Feb. 2001, pp. 41-45. The Barnes Review, 645 Pennsylvania Ave SE, Suite 100, Washington D.C. 20003, USA.
"Holy war".....isn't that the same underpinning as Intifadah and Islamic militancy? Sure seems so to me.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 2:36pm
international Jewish leadership...
hahahaha. put two jews together on any subject, and you get three different opinions.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 2:37pm
OneVote-Are you trying to compare a boycott with the holocaust?
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/29/2009 @ 2:33pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Nope. Comparing Zionist rationalization with Nazi rationalization.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 2:38pm
hahahaha. put two jews together on any subject, and you get three different opinions.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 2:37pm | ignore this person | warn this person
well said JR - perhaps Palestinians and Lebanonese are not all of one mind as well - heck, throw in Iranians as well.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 2:40pm
one vote-It is impossible to compare those two nor have you.You are not even trying to compare apples to oranges,but are trying to compare apples to a rock.Zionists are not nearly as like minded as you believe and it is quite understandable that Jews would want a homeland considering what Christians,Muslims,and people,like yourself,have done to them.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/29/2009 @ 2:43pm
war? how many tanks, how many planes, how many U-boats?
see? complete nonsense.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 2:32pm | ignore this person | warn this person
how many Israeli dead compared to Palestinian dead in Gaza? Bottle rockets versus F-16s.
you ever go hungry JR - ever been thrown out onto the street after you can't pay your rent - ever had you money embezzled by your banker - ever had to see your children go shoeless? economic sanctions are a slow death. To wit: how many Iraqi children dead because of economic sanctions against Saddam? 500,000 - as Madeline Albright stated - "it's worth it."
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 2:44pm
it is quite understandable that Jews would want a homeland considering what Christians,Muslims,and people,like yourself,have done to them.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/29/2009 @ 2:43pm | ignore this person | warn this person
"what I have done to them"?
Aren't you jumping to conclusions here?
Making certain assumptions you shouldn't be?
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 2:47pm
one vote-your kind incites the violence just as the hard core anti gay and anti abortion types incite the violence.Of course,you all claim innocence and then continue the rhetoric until violence happens and then you run and hide, as we saw when McVeigh did his thing and at other times.What killed the anti abortion movement was the acts of violence that came about because of the fiery rhetoric..You give a fiery,but very one sided view just like those other people I mentioned whose rhetoric incited violence.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/29/2009 @ 2:56pm
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/29/2009 @ 2:56pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Funny that my views have received rabbinical endorsement.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 3:00pm
An open question to everyone on this thread:
Should the Arabs suffer any penalty in the form of lost territory the way the Germans did after World War II (for example, the loss of Danzig and Konigsberg)?
Posted by Mistral at 04/29/2009 @ 3:09pm
onevote-Antisocialists views have pastoral and rabbinical support.I do not care about either.My reasons for supporting Israel are practical and not for religious reasons.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/29/2009 @ 3:10pm
Funny that my views have received rabbinical endorsement. Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 3:00pm | ignore this person | warn this person
yes funny indeed. anyone can be a rabbi. there is no Vatican like hiercharchy. so that's meaningless.
the maudlin ever go hungry too is a sick joke. germany, whose history you are ignorant of, had two complete currency devaluations, one in '23 and one in '29 the great depression. in addition germany was paying war reparations, so if any children went hungry, you might look for the reasons there.
give it up, you know nothing.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:10pm
Posted by Mistral at 04/29/2009 @ 3:09pm | ignore this person | warn this person
what an absurd, and ahistorical question. germany lost far more than those two cities. Pommerania, east prussia and more to both Russia and Poland. the germans have come to terms with that. there is no right of return. if there was I would be summering at the baltic sea, the way my mom and my grandparents were.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:16pm
economic sanctions are a slow death.
I guess you approve of the Pearl Harbor attack by the Japanese.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:18pm
give it up, you know nothing.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:10pm | ignore this person | warn this person
ah....so Zionists figure it is okay to kick a man why he is down. Economic recovery under boycott might be a little difficult wouldn't you say? How would you feel if you had suffered years of deprivation and someone told you I am going to make it worse for you unless you do exactly what I want? Would you feel angry? Might it inspire you to retaliate against your oppressor?
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 3:19pm
give it up you nazi swine apologist.
get it?
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:21pm
My reasons for supporting Israel are practical and not for religious reasons.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/29/2009 @ 3:10pm | ignore this person | warn this person
My reasons for opposing Zionism and its undue influence over our foreign policy are practical and for nonreligious purposes. Rabbinical endorsement defuses all arguments that my views are based on anti-semitism or intolerance of Judaism as religious practice.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 3:24pm
give it up you nazi swine apologist.
get it?
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:21pm | ignore this person | warn this person
what was that about a low perch?
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 3:27pm
one vote.
this is just some abstract argument to you. not to me.
My family lived and suffered through these events, I witnessed first hand the aftermath. Americans are often clueless. they did not get bombed and their civilian populations did not get chewed up by the allies on one side and the russians on the other.
one small commando attack, and americans are ready to throw their constitution and their freedoms into the trash. Berlin was bombed five or more times a day and during the night. Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagazaki, Tokio, the list is endless.
it wasn't the jews who started the war. don't come to me with your revisionist crap. Pfui!
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:29pm
Rabbinical endorsement
there are millions of rebbes. the one in Brooklyn was and is the messiah to thousands.
there are even rebbes for christ.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:31pm
you nazi swine apologist.
there are two ways to read the above.
one is that you are an apologist for nazi swine.
two is that you are a nazi swine and an apologist.
take your pick.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:42pm
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:29pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Emotion often clouds judgment.
Understand - I am not saying that what Hitler did was justified or excusable!!
I am saying that rationalizations are human nature, and that a Jew and a German are human, and as such, will rely on such rationalizations in order to "moralize" primal atrocity against others. The Holocaust does not justify Gaza. The Jewish boycott does not justify the Holocaust.
I refuse to let Holocaust sympathy be cover for Zionist atrocity.
And the bombings you reference were unspeakable horrors.
But, if you are against such horrors, you must be consistent in your logic, and rationalizations should not be used to excuse one group and condemn another that are guilty of similar crimes.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 3:42pm
take your pick.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:42pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Is there really a difference in your mind?
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 3:44pm
there are even rabbis who break into a mosque and machine gun worshippers to death.
and those who advocate this.
we got 'em too, like the satanic preacher par example.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:45pm
Rabbinical endorsement
there are millions of rebbes. the one in Brooklyn was and is the messiah to thousands.
there are even rebbes for christ.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:31pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Yep!
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 3:47pm
But, if you are against such horrors, you must be consistent in your logic, and rationalizations should not be used to excuse one group and condemn another that are guilty of similar crimes. Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 3:42pm | ignore this person | warn this person
this is all bullshit. you are putting words in my mouth. I have never excused or rationalized anything.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:47pm
Let's be clear about the facts.
There are numerous Chassidic sects. The Satmers are shunned even by the other Chassidic sects, much less by orthodox and non-orthodox Jews. The Satmer opposition to Zionism is based on their fanatical fundamentalist belief that Jews cannot return to Israel until god sends the Messiah. Given their hatred of Zionists as secular athiests, the Satmer engage in the same sort of hate mongering as do right wing evangelicals against gays. Indeed, the Iranian hate-in on the Holocaust was attended by a splinter Satmer rabbi who endorsed A's Holocaust denial.
More to the point, the link I provided clarifies that the boycott was a response to the Nazi attacks on the Jews, which had begun 2 years earlier.
Calling OneVote a virulent anti-semite is not throwing the term around. It is testifying to the truth.
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 3:52pm
this is all bullshit. you are putting words in my mouth. I have never excused or rationalized anything.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:47pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I see. So name calling and potshots instead of refutation by fact and argument is what exactly?
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 3:55pm
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 3:52pm | ignore this person | warn this person
good point. in addition Hitler in his Mein Kampf was quite specific as what his plans for the jews were.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:57pm
refutation by fact
that has already happened. you have not addressed my arguments at all. what a waste of time.
I do not write this for the nutcase one vote. I write for everyone else.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 4:04pm
Let's clarify some more.
The anti-Israel argument that the Holocaust doesn't justify any action by Israel against the Palestinians, is a canard because neither Israel nor American Zionists do, or need to, justify any Israeli action as allowable because of the Holocaust.
The Nazis did not undertake the Holocaust because of the ineffective boycott of German goods by a relatively limited number of Jews. The Holocaust was undertaken because of a virulent strain of irrational racial hatred.
The Israelis and Palestians (and other Arabs) are at war over possession of land, just like innumerable wars over the course of human history which had nothing to do with racial hatred. Bad things happen in war. The issue isn't whether the Palestinians have a right to undertake action to demand their own sovereignty. The issue is whether some of their actions (suicide bombings, missle attacks on Sderot) cross the line into unacceptable terrorism.
In any event, but for the presence of Hamas, Israel and the PA already would have concluded a peace agreement which would have given the Palestinians 93% of the West Bank and an additional 3% land compensation. Hamas' refusal to accept the existence of Israel, and it's fanatical religious jihad to restore Muslim sovereignty to all of the mid-east, is the obstacle to peace.
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 4:06pm
Calling OneVote a virulent anti-semite is not throwing the term around. It is testifying to the truth.
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 3:52pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Here is your classic Zionist.
Rather than give you any facts, he name calls. His rationalization is that I am an anti-semite, and so my argument must be dismissed summarily.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 4:10pm
The anti-Israel argument that the Holocaust doesn't justify any action by Israel against the Palestinians, is a canard because neither Israel nor American Zionists do, or need to, justify any Israeli action as allowable because of the Holocaust.
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 4:06pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Funny that the Holocaust always come up in discussions of Zionism, especially from the Zionists. Like Rose postulated - wouldn't you do the same if you were a Zionist. Please Gren.....preach to a wider audience than your Zionist buddies here will ya. I can't relate.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 4:15pm
'The world knows what it means: .. the withdrawal of Israel to its '67 borders, the partition of Jerusalem in some fashion to allow the Palestinians to have their capital in East Jerusalem....' -- Robert Dreyfuss
'As Uri Avnery, the veteran Israeli writer and peace activist expostulated here furiously in the wake of this last sentence: "Along comes Obama and retrieves from the junkyard the outworn slogan ‘Undivided Jerusalem, the Capital of Israel for all Eternity'. Since Camp David, all Israeli governments have understood that this mantra constitutes an insurmountable obstacle to any peace process. It has disappeared - quietly, almost secretly - from the arsenal of official slogans. No Palestinian, no Arab, no Muslim will make peace with Israel if the Haram-al-Sharif compound (also called the Temple Mount), one of the three holiest places of Islam and the most outstanding symbol of Palestinian nationalism, is not transferred to Palestinian sovereignty. That is one of the core issues of the conflict. On that very issue, the Camp David conference of 2000 broke up."...' -- Alexander Cockburn -- CounterPunch.org -- 13 June 2008
Posted by HonestLiberal at 04/29/2009 @ 4:21pm
Honest liberal --
I'm curious why you support the Muslim demand for undivided sovereignty to the Temple Mount over the Jewish offer for shared sovereignty, given that it is Judaism's holiest site where the Temple was located.
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 4:25pm
there are even rabbis who break into a mosque and machine gun worshippers to death.
and those who advocate this.
we got 'em too, like the satanic preacher par example.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 3:45pm
Well pathological liar,,,cite when I have ever called for Rabbis or any other spiritual leader to go into a mosque and machine gun worshippers to death..
You won't be able to of course. Your twisted views only place you where you throw slurs against anyone with whom you disagree. you can be as vile as some of the worst that even you condemn.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/29/2009 @ 4:38pm
The Nazis did not undertake the Holocaust because of the ineffective boycott of German goods by a relatively limited number of Jews. The Holocaust was undertaken because of a virulent strain of irrational racial hatred.
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 4:06pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Similar to Jewish racial hatred of Palestinian Arabs in Israel right Gren?
Tell me when the League of Anti-Semites was formed in Germany and why?
Was it "racial hatred" or was it based on bigger principals such as ethnocentrism by choice, fostered myths of religious, cultural and biological superiority (keep the race pure...no intermarriage), and refusal to assimilate? Catch a little hypocrisy here Gren - Germans Jews didn't want to be discriminated against, but had no problem with discriminating against German Gentiles? Go figure.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 4:42pm
I don't think HonestLiberal expressed any opinion about the status of the Temple Mount.
I think HonestLiberal's point was that President Obama has already said that he strongly opposes the position that Mr. Dreyfuss says President Obama should take.
Posted by Mistral at 04/29/2009 @ 4:43pm
'From its' inception, many rabbis warned of the potential dangers of Zionism and openly declared that all Jews loyal to G-d should stay away from it like one would from fire. They made their opinions clear to their congregants and to the general public. Their message was that Zionism is a chauvinistic racist phenomenon which has absolutely naught to do with Judaism. They publicly expressed that Zionism would definitely be detrimental to the well being of Jews and Gentiles and that its effects on the Jewish religion would be nothing other than destructive. Further, it would taint the reputation of Jewry as a whole and would cause utter confusion in the Jewish and non-Jewish communities. Judaism is a religion. Judaism is not a race or a nationality. That was and still remains the consensus amongst the rabbis.'
THE ROLE OF ZIONISM IN THE HOLOCAUST Article by Rabbi Gedalya Liebermann - Australia
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 4:52pm
hey one vote --
I enjoy your posts. One, they're entertaining, in the same way that I find right wing talk radio nutcases entertaining. Two, you do for antisemitism what the KKK does for anti-civil rights. So keep on ranting; it's a long strange trip.
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 4:53pm
Mistral, don't bother. Posters to this blog can misinterpret even such a simple thing as a cut-and-paste! Like above when DuBois took you to task because you didn't list ALL the territories the Germans lost because of their aggression.
Posted by HonestLiberal at 04/29/2009 @ 4:53pm
Hey Mistral and Honest Lib --
don't understand your apparent offense; none was intended. It is not unreasonable to assume that you agree with the quote you paste. Quite frankly, I still don't understand your post or Mistral's explanation, but I don't mean to be insulting. It was a neutral question seeking a discussion.
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 5:01pm
More to the point, the link I provided clarifies that the boycott was a response to the Nazi attacks on the Jews, which had begun 2 years earlier.
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 3:52pm | ignore this person | warn this person
'While there were sporadic eruptions of violence against Jews in Germany after Hitler came to power, this was not officially sanctioned or encouraged. And the truth is that anti-Jewish sentiments in Germany (or elsewhere in Europe) were actually nothing new. As all Jewish historians attest with much fervor, anti-Semitic uprisings of various degrees had been ever-present in European history.
In any case, in early 1933, Hitler was not the undisputed leader of Germany, nor did he have full command of the armed forces. Hitler was a major figure in a coalition government, but he was far from being the government himself. That was the result of a process of consolidation which evolved later.
Even Germany's Jewish Central Association, known as the Verein, contested the suggestion (made by some Jewish leaders outside Germany) that the new government was deliberately provoking anti-Jewish uprisings.
The Verein issued a statement that "the responsible government authorities [i.e. the Hitler regime] are unaware of the threatening situation," saying, "we do not believe our German fellow citizens will let themselves be carried away into committing excesses against the Jews."
Despite this, Jewish leaders in the United States and Britain determined on their own that it was necessary to launch a war against the Hitler government.'
The Jewish Declaration of War on Nazi Germany The Economic Boycott of 1933
Article from The Barnes Review, Jan./Feb. 2001, pp. 41-45. The Barnes Review, 645 Pennsylvania Ave SE, Suite 100, Washington DC
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 5:03pm
Trust me
Some say trust is the root cause of secrecy and secrecy breeds corruption, but how childish.
So come let us be adult about it as Obama has bright white and shiny teeth. A sure sign of change and we must trust that all torture goons from Bush on down shall end up on death row, all Wall Street executives and zombie bank CEO's shall earn prison wages, high finance, GM and Chrysler shall be nationalized and resold for a profit when the economy recovers, all our troops shall come home and all war materials including those in Israel shall be recycled for peaceful use. And finally our fascist capitalist Republic shall overnight be transformed into a social democracy most perfect.
Now, am I a prophet or am I a prophet?
Posted by Alabama.John at 04/29/2009 @ 5:05pm
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 4:53pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Glad you are amused. Better scholars than you would disagree with your premise however. Only in America through suppression of truth and ignorance do you maintain your hegemony over myth making. Even in Israel you are laughable.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 5:08pm
Just in case anyone's wondering about onevote's sources, here's what Sourcewatch says about the Barnes Review:
The Barnes Review is an anti-Semitic web site whose primary propaganda goal is disparagement of Jews and denial that the Nazi Holocaust ever occurred. The home page of the Barnes Review has included articles with titles such as "The Myth of the Six Million" and "Jewish History, Jewish Religion," which states, "When the Roman historian Tacitus pointed out 19 centuries ago that the Jews are unique among the races of man in their intense hatred and contempt for all races but their own, he was only repeating what many other scholars had discovered before him."
onevote -- I'd really be impressed if you'd add some quotes from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 5:30pm
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 5:30pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Soucewatch huh?
SourceWatch is a free encyclopedia of people, issues, and groups shaping the public agenda that is being written collaboratively on this web site. It catalogues descriptions and details of PR firms, activist groups and government agencies as well as the criticisms that are made of these groups from different perspectives. (More...)
You may not agree with all of the criticisms, and if you think something that appears here is unfair, you can fix it! The site is a Wiki, meaning that anyone, including you, can edit any article right now by clicking on the edit this page link that appears in every article in SourceWatch. As more and more people edit the articles, they improve in quality all the time. (More...)
Kind of like Wikipedia Gren isn't it?
So any Zionist who wants to slander a source is free to do so. And we all know how rabid Zionists are when it comes to wallpapering the truth.
Funny that SourceWatch doesn't have a knowledge base of JewsAgainstZionism....from which the Barnes Review article came from.
Why don't you try to refute what the Barnes Review article stated rather than your AIPAC media watchdog BS posts.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 5:53pm
'You may not agree with all of the criticisms, and if you think something that appears here is unfair, you can fix it!'
Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 5:30pm | ignore this person | warn this person
LMAO - what a crock of sh_t you are!
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 5:56pm
Barnes Review publisher
Willis Carto-so anti-semitic, even the John Birch Society kicked him out.
http://www.williscarto.com/carto.html
http://www.williscarto.net/
In 1984, Willis Carto was among those involved in starting a new political party called the Populist Party. As with many other Carto creations, this group quickly fell out of the hands of Carto in a hostile takeover from disgruntled former associates. This Populist Party, which critics charged was an electoral vehicle for current and former Ku Klux Klan and Christian Identity members, was not a continuation of the earlier Populist Party of the late 1800s, which was a left-wing party. The Populist Party started by Willis Carto was a party of the far right, and is best known for running David Duke as its Presidential nominee in 1988, and former Green Beret officer Bo Gritz in 1992. It disbanded by 1996.
In 2004, Carto joined in signing the New Orleans Protocol on behalf of American Free Press. The New Orleans Protocol seeks to "mainstream our cause" by reducing violence and internecine warfare, and was written by David Duke. There are few movements on the American far right that have not been influenced in one way or another by Willis Carto in the last 50 years.
http://www.fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Willis_Carto
Posted by antisocialist at 04/29/2009 @ 6:08pm
Posted by antisocialist at 04/29/2009 @ 6:08pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Yes Liv ADL (Jewish Anti-Defamation League) is critic of truth and Willis Carto.
Note this stunning hypocrisy about Holocaust deniers........
In 2007, Abraham Foxman came under criticism for his stance on the Armenian Genocide. Foxman had opposed calls for the U.S. Government to recognise it as a "genocide".[47] "I don't think congressional action will help reconcile the issue. The resolution takes a position; it comes to a judgment," said Foxman in a statement issued to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency. "The Turks and Armenians need to revisit their past. The Jewish community shouldn't be the arbiter of that history, nor should the U.S. Congress." The ADL felt the safety of Israel, which considers Turkey a rare Muslim ally, was paramount to the issue.[48]
In early August 2007, complaints about the Anti-Defamation League's refusal to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide led to the Watertown, Massachusetts unanimous town council decision to end their participation in the ADL "No Place for Hate" campaign.
In early August 2007, an editorial in The Boston Globe criticized the ADL saying that "as an organization concerned about human rights, it ought to acknowledge the genocide against the Armenian people during World War I, and criticize Turkish attempts to repress the memory of this historical reality."[49]
On 17 August 2007, the ADL fired its regional New England director, Andrew H. Tarsy, for breaking ranks with the main organization and saying the ADL should recognize the genocide.[48]
In a 21 August 2007 press release, the ADL changed its position to one of acknowledging the genocide but maintained its opposition to congressional resolutions aimed at recognizing it.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 6:53pm
continued........
Foxman wrote, "the consequences of those actions," by the Ottoman Empire against Armenians, "were indeed tantamount to genocide."[51] The Turkish government condemned the league's statement.[52] Andrew H. Tarsy was rehired by the league on 27 August,[53] though he has since chosen to step down from his position.[54]
The ADL was criticized by many in the Armenian community including The Armenian Weekly newspaper....
Source: Wikipedia
Of the primary goals of (J)ADL is promotion and maintaining Holocaust memory of Jews in Nazi Germany. They do not extend that courtesy to other groups who have suffered Holocaust, however. ADL works assiduously to slander any person, group, or organization that disputes their version of Holocaust.
A rich read of ADL's history is worth everyone's time and effort to gain perspective on manipulation of perception.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 6:59pm
On April 8, 1993, police seized Bullock's computer and raided the ADL offices in San Francisco and Los Angeles, California. A search of Bullock's computer revealed he had compiled files on 9,876 individuals and more than 950 groups across the political spectrum. Many of Bullock's files concerned groups that did not fit the mold of extremist groups, hate groups, and organizations hostile to Jews or Israel that the ADL would usually be interested in. Along with files on the Ku Klux Klan, White Aryan Resistance, Islamic Jihad and Jewish Defense League were data on the NAACP, the African National Congress (ANC), the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), the United Auto Workers, the AIDS activist group ACT UP, Mother Jones magazine, the TASS Soviet/Russian news agency, Greenpeace, Jews for Jesus and the National Lawyers Guild; there were also files on politicians including Democratic U.S. Representative Nancy Pelosi, former Republican U.S. Representative Pete McCloskey, and activist Lyndon LaRouche.[42][43] Bullock told investigators that many of those were his own private files, not information he was passing on to the ADL. An attorney for the ADL stated that "We knew nothing about the vast extent of the files. Those are not ADL's files. … That is all [Bullock's] doing."[44] As for its own records, the ADL indicated that just because it had a file on a group did not indicate opposition to the group. The San Francisco district attorney at the time accused the ADL of conducting a national "spy network", but dropped all accusations a few months later. [45]
In the weeks following the raids, twelve civil rights groups led by the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee and the National Lawyers Guild, filed a lawsuit demanding ADL release its survellance information
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 7:06pm
and end its investigations, as well as be ordered to pay punitive damages.[46] The plaintiffs' attorney, former Representative McCloskey, claimed that information the ADL gathered constituted an invasion of privacy. The ADL, while distancing itself from Bullock, countered that it is entitled like any researcher or journalist to research organizations and individuals. Richard Cohen, legal director of the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Alabama, stated that like journalists, the ADL's researchers "gather information however they can" and welcome disclosures from confidential sources, saying "they probably rely on their sources to draw the line" on how much can legally be divulged. Bullock admitted that he was overzealous, and that some of the ways he gathered information may have been illegal.[44]
The lawsuit was settled out of court in 1999. The ADL agreed to pay $175,000 for the court costs of the groups that sued it, promised that it would not seek information from sources it knew could not legally disclose such information, consented to remove sensitive information like criminal records or Social Security numbers from its files, and spent $25,000 to further relations between the Jewish, Arab and black communities. When the case was settled, Hussein Ibish, director of communications for the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC), claimed that the ADL had gathered data "systematically in a program whose clear intent was to undermine civil rights and Arab-American organizations".
Source: Wikipedia
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 7:08pm
onevote -- I'd really be impressed if you'd add some quotes from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Posted by gren at 04/29/2009 @ 5:30pm | ignore this person | warn this person
of which there were several going back centuries. a popular subject, the drinking of the blood of goyim children for pesach.
it's all a matter of blaming the victim. that too is age old.
gren, I presume sarcasm, which is a fine reaction.
why these people come here with their shopworn history is astonishing to me.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 7:52pm
why these people come here with their shopworn history is astonishing to me.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/29/2009 @ 7:52pm | ignore this person | warn this person
why we let refugees into our country with allegiance to another astonishes me. Israel awaits you JR. Go.
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 8:28pm
Such a divisive, historically mixed up issue.
The Jews should definitely exist in Israel. They have always lived in Judea and they should live there now.
But can someone educate me about why it's acceptable to create more developments in Palestine? It seems to me that it just creates more anger and resentment.
I seek enlightenment on this, but to be clear, I am not a follower of western religious mythology. I do not believe that they, or anyone for that matter, are 'gods chosen people. I would put forth that we ALL are, if anyone is at all.
Posted by ficheye at 04/29/2009 @ 9:34pm
tell ficheye:
fair question. The following response is obviously my personal view, but I beleive not untrue.
Most Israelis, and Zionists, today wish that the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza (the latter of which have all been abandoned)had not been developed, with the exception of those in East Jerusalem and the Etzion Bloc (the Etzion bloc contained jewish communities before the 1947 massacre by Jordanian Royal Guard forces). Except for 4 urban areas very close to the Green Line (which involve approximately 5-6% of the west Bank) and areas of East Jerusalem, Israel has offered to abandon all other settlements in a peace treaty. all current development that you read about takes place in those areas.
The obstacle to peace is not the setllements. Rather, it is the division of East Jerusalem, determining sovereignty of the Temple Mount, and the right of return. The PA likely would make the compromises that could meet Israel's offers on those issues but for the effective veto power of Hamas and extreme militant Fatah factions which would condemn the PA for treason for compromising on those issues and provoke a civil war.
Posted by gren at 04/30/2009 @ 08:21am
I seek enlightenment on this, but to be clear, I am not a follower of western religious mythology. I do not believe that they, or anyone for that matter, are 'gods chosen people. I would put forth that we ALL are, if anyone is at all.
Posted by ficheye at 04/29/2009 @ 9:34pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Check out the documentary "The Wall" on Youtube..........
statements such as Gren's above are absurdly minimalist such as glossing over water rights sucked dry by Jewish enclaves and restriction of rights of access to use major transportation routes built to serve those enclaves. The Israeli government even subsidizes the construction of and purchase of residential units in occupied territory. Much of this construction is financed with bonds underwritten and guarranteed by the United States government - a clear violation of the use of US debt financing underwriting, guarantee and subsidy.
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 08:48am
tell onevote --
when you're right, you're right. The division and allocation of scarce water rights is another fundamental and difficult issue. For example, the Dead Sea is drying up because the demand on the Jordan River empties it before it reaches the Dead Sea. Ultimately, to benefit both the Israelis and Palestinians, it will be necessary to increase the insufficient supply of water, probably with a reservoir system linked to the mountains in Turkey.
(unless you can provide a credible source for the bond accusation, I'll have to assume that's just more rabid propoganda.)
Posted by gren at 04/30/2009 @ 08:57am
Posted by OneVote at 04/29/2009 @ 8:28pm | ignore this person | warn this person
by any standard I'm sure that I have contributed more to this country in my almost 50 years here than you have. my contribution will last as long as there are libraries. I am a footnote to be sure but you? you are nothing.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/30/2009 @ 09:01am
Posted by gren at 04/30/2009 @ 08:21am | ignore this person | warn this person
there will be no right of return, and I seriously doubt Jerusalem will again be divided. wars have consequences.
as far as a palestinian state in the west bank is concerned, what economy will support it? they used to have jobs in Israel, before they started to blow up busses and pizzerias. those jobs will NEVER return. small surprise.
let arabs take care of arabs. it is something they have never done. they are still warehousing refugees TWO generations later. their grandchildren are supposed to have a right of return? not gonna happen.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/30/2009 @ 09:11am
(unless you can provide a credible source for the bond accusation, I'll have to assume that's just more rabid propoganda.)
Posted by gren at 04/30/2009 @ 08:57am | ignore this person | warn this person
Wanna bet?
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 09:27am
I am a footnote to be sure but you? you are nothing.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/30/2009 @ 09:01am | ignore this person | warn this person
Well....are you a "historian" or a "propagandist."?
Alan Dershowitz is a propagandist, although he would claim that his books are unbiased, and based on historical fact.
Check out Norman Finklestein's NPR debate with Zionist Dershowitz - pretty much says it all. Yuck!
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 09:38am
Recruiting American Jews for Israel
The U.S. government funds Israel's ongoing program to remove the native population of Palestine, primarily Muslims and Christians, and supplant them with European-American Jewish colonists. Our tax dollars facilitate this ethnic cleansing and colonization of Occupied Palestine.
Why do seemingly normal, middle class Jewish American families take part in genocidal ethnic cleansing?
While some sick individuals might get a "thrill" from moving into property stolen from a family expelled fromtheir home at gunpoint by the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF), our observations indicate that fun and profit serve asthe primary motivation for relocating to Occupied Palestine. The Israeli government offers American Jews subsidized mortgages at interest rates far lower than anything available to non-Jews. The subsidies are funded by Israeli bonds and underwritten by U.S. loan guarantees. The new mortgage holders are allowed to sink their credit card debts into Israeli mortgages valued in shekels, whichare practically guaranteed to depreciate relative to the dollar. (See http://www.tehilla.com/homes).
While these "ethically challenged" American Jews stay in Israel, they are offered free Hebrew classes and living expenses for up to one year, paid by the Israeli government.
The cost of "doing business" with Israel is not only financial but moral.
The system creates suburban sprawl in the Holy Land, environmental devastation and mass homelessness of the original, rightful non-Jewish property owners. Most Palestinians under Israeli government control are not citizens and have no rights under Israeli law.
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 10:10am
OneVote and his sources do not acknowledge that the roots of political antisemitism (as contrasted with the ancient, pre-political, religious / cultural antisemtism) in the German-speaking areas of Europe began early in the 19th century as Jews began to gain some political rights. Before political emancipation, there was no such thing as political antisemitism. This political antisemitism was expressed by liberals as a resistance to Jewish citizenship based on perceived Jewish social and economic exclusiveness, and it was expressed by conservatives as a repulsion of the economic and social threat of Jewish assimilation.
In the late 19th century Wilhemine era, a racial theory of antisemitism evolved to conform to the rise of German nationalism as an international force. By postulating a physical rationale for Jewish "otherness" it gave a common idiom to both the anti-exclusiveness and the anti-assimilationist Jew haters. It was at this time in history (around 1875), when Jews began to be heavily persecuted by all factions for being simultaneously too assimilated and not assimilated enough that the modern Zionist movement was born.
This racial theory of antisemitism was applied and refined by Hitler and the Nazis long before they achieved power("Mein Kampf" was written in 1924), and it formed the basis of the political "final solution" to their Jewish problem.
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 10:11am
OneVote´s statement that in 1933 Hitler had not yet consolidated his power was just one German leader among many is historically false. Hitler became chancellor in January of 1933, and by March of that year he had successfully dissolved the Reichstag (parliament) and been freely handed the dictatorial powers that he would wield until his death in 1945. It is true that he required another year-and-a-half or so to bring the army fully under his personal control, but this is a dynamic that concerns Germany's foreign policy whereas the antisemitism discussion is one of domestic policy. Nobody disputes that the SS and all the various interior ministries and police agencies were 100% under Hitler's domination by March of 1933. The first anti-Jewish laws were decreed by Hitler promptly in March of 1933 and were one of the very first official acts of his formal dictatorship. The limited international boycotts that followed (not exclusively Jewish-organized, by the way) began in direct response to these discriminatory antisemitic decrees. Most serious historians have concluded that the progression of Hitler'anti-Jewish policies were intitally regulated by his gauging of the severity of the international response and that his intention (and the ideology of the Nazi party) from the beginning was to eliminate Judaism from all German-speaking territory.
OneVote or anybody else who claims that Nazi antisemitic policy was a reaction to Jewish economic pressure is either stupid or malicious. The quality of his grammar suggests that OneVote isn't stupid, so the conclusion is that he's malicious. Given his further enthusiastic endorsement of the obnoxious and factually unsupportable thesis that Germany's Zionist leaders were in collusion with Hitler leads to the further conc
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 10:12am
Lands to which the Jewish Agency holds title are only leased or deeded underconditions that prevent transfer or use by non-Jews. Such discrimination would be illegal in the USA.The Israeli government organizes the eviction (nishul) of Palestinians (usually uncompensated) through transfers of the land to specialized organizations like the Jewish Agency or the Israel Lands Authority (ILA), or Israeldiscovers military or security requirements that "necessitate" the transfer of property from Palestinians to the Army.Eventually, the ILA develops the stolen land to create or expand Jews-Only settlements. The contractors employedby the ILA and its helper organizations build the homes and necessary infrastructure. They are typically connectedto government and military officials and all profit tremendously from the US-financed plunder and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population.Local travel agents often double as recruiters and real estate brokers for Israel. American Jews willing to relocate to stolen properties are not usually subject to credit checks when they seek an Israeli mortgage because the Israeli government subordinates its fiscal responsibility to the goal of overwhelming the Palestinians demographically.Most American olim (immigrants) do not settle permanently in Occupied Palestine. They live there for a couple ofyears and then sell their house when the value goes up and come back debt free. They enjoy a nice vacation and make a profit as well.
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 10:12am
Here's how it works:
Jewish aliyah (immigration to Israel) organizations engage in ongoing campaigns to recruit American Jews. Theyadvertise in the Jewish media, through Jewish run travel agencies, and on college campuses.Suppose you are an American Jew with $60,000 in educational or credit card debt. You might attend a class at thelocal Jewish Community Center or take part in some organized pro-Israel activity. At some point you will meet anofficial or semi-official shaliah (recruiter/emissary) who will explain the deal to you.
Page 2 2. Say you have a $60,000 debt, are paying $2,000 a month rent and you owe another $1000 in various loan payments and other expenses. You can get a $160,000 mortgage in Israel for less than $400/month. Try getting that from Fannie Mae!3. You and your family get free health insurance. Can't get that in America! 4. The Israeli government will pay your living expenses for at least 6 months. What a deal! 5. You get Israeli citizenship and all the rights the native population does not have.6. Settlers in the more recently ethnically cleansed Occupied Territories get lower tax rates and other special benefits than those settling in "Israel Proper."
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 10:14am
Qualified individuals may receive free plane tickets to Israel from organizations like Birthright Israel.8. You can apply for an additional $5,000 - $25,000 stipend from organizations like Nefesh b'Nefesh (Soul to Soul - i.e. Jewish souls) You should be able to live for one year without working, at which point your home has accrued in value as the settlement has expanded and amenities have improved. You should be able to sell your home at a profit, pay off your debt and return to the USA debt free. Once back home you will be strongly encouraged to contribute generously to your local Congressmen. Doesn't it sound like payback for the pleasant vacation and good fortune made possible by the U.S. government simply because you are Jewish?
http://www.nogw.com/download/2005_recruiting_americanjews.pdf
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 10:18am
OneVote or anybody else who claims that Nazi antisemitic policy was a reaction to Jewish economic pressure is either stupid or malicious. The quality of his grammar suggests that OneVote isn't stupid, so the conclusion is that he's malicious. Given his further enthusiastic endorsement of the obnoxious and factually unsupportable thesis that Germany's Zionist leaders were in collusion with Hitler leads to the further conclusion that OneVote is clearly antisemitic.
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 10:19am
OneVote or anybody else who claims that Nazi antisemitic policy was a reaction to Jewish economic pressure is either stupid or malicious.
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 10:12am | ignore this person | warn this person
JewsAgainstZionism claim this. Your tawdry attempt to characterize this as my irrational thesis solely is obvious, as is your bias.
Israel claims that killing and wounding Palestinians in gross disproportionality is justified by bottlerocks that were in fact fired in response to Israeli violation of ceasefire. Who is the con artist here again? Both Hitler and Israel use gross distortion and rationalization. That is my point.
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 10:30am
This racial theory of antisemitism was applied and refined by Hitler and the Nazis long before they achieved power("Mein Kampf" was written in 1924), and it formed the basis of the political "final solution" to their Jewish problem.
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 10:11am | ignore this person | warn this person
While you are at it - give us the history of "The Chosen People"....lol.
Talk to me about Jewish racism against Arabs, and in fact the derivation of refined terms and terminology that describe "goyim," including "goyim" that are useful service to Jews.
You have no moral authority. The treatment of the Armenian genocide recognition proves that your badge of morality is a self serving noose on the gallows of hypocrisy.
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 10:39am
OneVote's continued attempts to morally equate Nazi Germany to contemporary Israel is further evidence of his shameless antisemitism.
Let's recap:
1) He claims that the Nazi's anti-Jewish policies were the result of Jewish economic warfare against the Aryan German people
2) He claims that Jewish leaders collaborated with Hitler in the Judenrein policies of Nazi Germany
3) He claims that Israeli policy in Gaza is morally equivalent to total, genocidal extermination.
If he doesn't admit to being an antisemite, then he is also a coward.
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 10:44am
"before they started to blow up busses ..." Emile DuBois: You claim you have contributed so much to this country in fifty years? For someone who cannot spell the plural of "bus", it's really hard dealing with the ignorant and bigoted rubbish that inhabit this country. Your "contribution" is delusional. If you couldn't educate yourself, stop lecturing others.
Posted by mystic at 04/30/2009 @ 10:46am
Mystic,
You call Emile Dubois ignorant because he used the word "busses" and you don't think that "busses" is an English word. My copy of Webster´s collegiate dictionary gives "busses" as well as "buses" as acceptable plural forms of "bus". Please tell us again who is ignorant.
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 10:54am
If he doesn't admit to being an antisemite, then he is also a coward.
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 10:44am | ignore this person | warn this person
Why don't you tell us a little bit about Wilhelm Marr and how Hitler's Mein Kampf borrowed much of Marr's reasoning. Marr by the way married Jews, so it is highly questionable that his theories were based on Aryan "racism."
Quote to us specific passages in Mein Kampf that foretells in no uncertain terms of the "final solution" you reference, including specific methodology and means.
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 10:55am
busses, like kisses. ya got me there. I can take it as well as dish it out.
your foaming at the mouth history is risible.
"Busses" is an alternative spelling for "buses" (the plural of "bus"), but "buses" is always the first spelling given in dictionaries, indicating its prevalence. ahhh.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/30/2009 @ 10:57am
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 10:54am | ignore this person | warn this person
thank you.
sorry for the :bragging". it's a reflex to when I am told I should go back to where I came from, or such.
I'm 63. I have long since given up the quest to be modest about my "accomplishment" such as they are.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/30/2009 @ 11:01am
I'm 63. I have long since given up the quest to be modest about my "accomplishment" such as they are.
Posted by emile duBois at 04/30/2009 @ 11:01am | ignore this person | warn this person
sin of hubris - no wonder you are such a meatball.
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 11:11am
OneVote wants to know where Hitler discusses the final solution in "Mein Kampf". However, as a devoted admirer of the Fürher OneVote already is aware that in 1924 Hitler was not yet discussing any political plans to physically assasinate all of the Jews; ideologically he would have been satisfied with a solution that freed German-speaking lands of the Jews through forced emigration. After assuming dictatorial power and perceiving that the war he started made the mass expulsion of the Jews a logistical impossibility, he enabled the bureaucracy and internal security services to formulate and execute the policy of extermination. That's one of the reasons we call it "The Final Solution" and not "The Initial Solution".
OneVote still hasn't admitted his antisemitism. I'm happy to call myself a "Zionist", which as far as I can tell is a less popular distinction on this board than "antisemite". Why is OneVote being such a coward?
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 11:20am
That's one of the reasons we call it "The Final Solution" and not "The Initial Solution".
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 11:20am | ignore this person | warn this person
So you admit that Hitler was a work in progress. So, Jewish antagonisms may have aggravated Hitler and worked to evolve a more devasting solution compared to say early on offers of relocation to elsewhere without physical harm, that fit in nicely with Zionist plans for Palestine?
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 11:27am
OneVote, we´re all "works in progress". However I do not admit that Hitler's policy against the Jews had anything at all to do with Jewish antagonizing. He was determined from the beginning (from the 1920's, at least) to rid all German-speaking lands of the Jews no matter what it took. What the Jews did or did not do had no effect on his ideology or his policies. Your belief that the Jews were responsible for the Holocaust and that Jewish leaders collaborated in this policy to advance their Zionist program is clear evidence of your antisemitism. You are a coward for refusing to call yourself an antisemite. Hitler was never afraid of his antisemitism; he was proud of it. Why are you afraid? Why aren't you proud?
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 11:34am
OneVote still hasn't admitted his antisemitism. I'm happy to call myself a "Zionist", which as far as I can tell is a less popular distinction on this board than "antisemite". Why is OneVote being such a coward?
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 11:20am | ignore this person | warn this person
I am anti-Zionist. For Zionist propagandists, anti-zionism and anti-semitism are equivalent. This is patently and irrefutably false.
I would glady vote for moving Israel to say North Dakota. It would be cheaper for the United States in the long run, and we could finally rid of our government of Zionist infestation that is destroying us from within and without.
So, I welcome Israel to move to United States with open arms. Would you agree to lobbying Congress and Israel to move to North Dakota?
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 11:42am
OneVote, now you are just being stupid. How could we possibly rid our government of "Zionist infestation" by moving all of the Zionists here? Unless part of your relocation scheme involves depriving the Jews of their civil and political rights. (Does it?). Furthermore, what are we going to do when angry North Dakotans start blowing up busses in protest?
I don't disupte that you are an anti-Zionist as you claim, and I agree that anti-Zionism and antisemitism are not the same thing. However they are not at all mutually exlusive; many, if not most, anti-Zionists are antisemites or have some antisemitic beliefs. So far you have neither admitted nor denied being an antisemite, but we all know that you are one. Do you admit being an antisemite? If not, why not?
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 11:50am
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 11:34am | ignore this person | warn this person
Your subjective opinion is just that, your subjective opinion. Jews disagree with you, and that is there opinion, supported by facts and history. Your revisionism to your Zionist ideology doesn't make truth.
Zionist responsibility for the Holocaust is threefold.
1. The Holocaust was a punishment for disrespecting The Three Oaths (see Talmud, Tractate Kesubos p. 111a).
2. Zionist leaders openly withheld support, both financially and otherwise, to save their fellow brothers and sisters from a cruel death.
3. The leaders of the Zionist movement cooperated with Hitler and his cohorts on many occasions and in many ways.
cite to: JewsAgainstZionism
'On December 7, 1938, Ben Gurion, the first head of the Zionist ‘state of Israel' declared "If I knew it was possible to save all the children in Germany by taking them to England, and only half of the children by taking them to Eretz Israel, I would choose the second solution. For we must take into account not only the lives of these children but also the history of the people of Israel."
Yvon Gelbner, "Zionist policy and the fate of European Jewry", in Yad Vashem studies (Jerusalem, vol. XII, p. 199).
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 11:56am
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 11:50am | ignore this person | warn this person
Would you support moving Israel to North Dakota or not? Make North Dakota the Jewish Homeland - no more Zionism, problem solved.
Mr. Salem Witch Trial.....I am sure you are a proud supporter of Mukassey as head of the Holocaust Memorial to.
Your dog in heat humping the leg of anti-semitism isn't going to work. What are you going to do - waterboard me??
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 12:01pm
'many, if not most, anti-Zionists are antisemites or have some antisemitic beliefs.'
Posted by izthatafact at 04/30/2009 @ 11:50am | ignore this person | warn this person
Does that include Jews Against Zionism? Oh...they are just self-loathing Jews who refuse to embrace their Judaism.
Your are borderline psychotic with this assertion, and your beliefs are the very reason for the resurgence of Jewish anti-semitism world wide.
Now...since you are an admitted Zionist, are you anti-semitic? Do you dislike Palestinian Arabs for no particular reason other than that they are not Zionist Jews?
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 12:12pm
Gren,
Thanks for the clarification about the old city and the water rights as well.
In my mind the struggle over the city of Jerusalem will never be resolved to anybody's satisfaction. And If the water disappears because of a growing population in Israel, there can only be trouble ahead.
It also seems that when you bring any aspect of religious division into it there is no end to that argument either. Stick with real estate and water. Even though it's doubtful any agreement can be reached, still it's more likely that resolving religious differences.
Posted by ficheye at 04/30/2009 @ 12:33pm
Is Waterboarding Torture? Mukasey: Yes, if It's Torture
By Paul Kiel - October 18, 2007, 12:20PM
'Mukasey has firmly established that he's against torture -- yesterday he even compared it to the Holocaust (see also here).'
Oh my....anybody see just a little bit of hypocrisy here. Mukassey gets a five year stint...nice. A supporter of Bush/Cheney torture who equates such action to Holocaust who serves on the HM Council?
TWELVE MEMBERS APPOINTED TO UNITED STATES HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL COUNCIL WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Before leaving office, President George W. Bush named 10 new members and reappointed William J. Danhof and M. Ronald Krongold to the United States Holocaust Memorial Council, the governing body of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. The Council consists of 55 Presidential appointees in addition to 10 Congressional representatives and three ex-officio members from the departments of Education, Interior and State. Each will serve a five-year term that expires in January 2014, except for Alan I. Casden, who is serving the remainder of a term that expires January 2011.
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 1:19pm
tell ficheye
Amen.
Posted by gren at 04/30/2009 @ 1:21pm
Let's take the longer view.
Since it's so easy to obtain nuclear weapons (and even easier to build radiological weapons - conventional weapons combined with radioactive materials such as waste from medical diagnostic or similar equipment), sometime in the 21st century most likely somebody in the Middle East will set one off. What do you think the world community should do after one or more cities in the area are fried or poisoned?
If you want a more specific scenario, try this: Yom Kippur, 2036, a large truck carrying cylinders of propane approaches West Jerusalem. The driver stops as a motorcyclist cuts in front of him and stops. The driver gets out, apparently to argue with the biker, but then gets on the back of the motorcycle and they both roar off. Fifteen minutes later the truck and its cargo explode in an enormous fireball. Weeks later, investigation reveals that most of the "propane" cylinders in fact contained highly radioactive materials diverted from a nuclear power waste processing plant, possibly from one of the ex-Soviet republics. Tens of thousands of people are contaminated. Most of the city is rendered uninhabitable.
How likely is this?
What should be done in response to this?
What should be done now to reduce the possibility that this will happen?
Posted by Mistral at 04/30/2009 @ 3:29pm
With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus stealing her from her people. With every means he tries to destroy the racial foundations of the people he has set out to subjugate. Just as he himself systematically ruins women and girls, he does not shrink back from pulling down the blood barriers for others, even on a large scale. It was and it is Jews who bring the Negroes into the Rhineland, always with the same secret thought and clear aim of ruining the hated white race by the necessarily resulting bastardization, throwing it down from its cultural and political height, and himself rising to be its master.
guess who?
Posted by emile duBois at 04/30/2009 @ 5:05pm
Jewish Hypocrisy on the Issue of Intermarriage - Excerpt
By Patrick Grimm 02/26/2008
Judaism and Zionism are both based on extreme ethnic supremacism. For those people not familiar with the tenets of Judaism and its political wing named Zionism, this is a reality that will become clearer once one starts reading the statements, books, articles and transcripts of lectures put out by mostly Zionist Jews, whether they be religious or non-religious. What makes the ethnocentrism of Jews so unique is how adamant it has proven to be when compared to the attitudes of other ethnicities. Jews, at least the politically and religiously aware ones, oppose the marriage of a Jew with a non-Jew (Gentile or Goy) in the most strident language possible. In fact, the religion of Judaism contains powerful prohibitions in its texts (the Torah and Talmud) against Jews mingling their blood with those who don't share their Jewish heritage.
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 5:33pm
On Jewish Intermarriage - Biblical Prohibition - Excerpt
Marriage between persons of different races or tribes. A prohibition to intermarry with the Canaanites is found in Deut. vii. 3, where it is said: "Neither shalt thou make marriages with them [any of the seven nations of the land of Canaan]; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son." The reason stated for this prohibition is: "For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods" (ib. vii. 4); and, inasmuch as this reason holds good as regards intermarriage with any idolatrous nation, all Gentiles are included in the prohibition (R. Simeon, in 'Ab. Zarah 36b; comp. Ḳid. 68b;
Excerpt: JewishEncyclopedia
Posted by OneVote at 04/30/2009 @ 5:59pm
By Morgan Strong, from 'Consortium News'
In 'When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?', Dr. Sand, an expert on European history at the University of Tel Aviv, says the Diaspora was largely a myth – that the Jews were never exiled en masse from the Holy Land and that many European Jewish populations converted to the faith centuries later. Thus, Sand argues, many of today's Israelis who emigrated from Europe after World War II have little or no genealogical connection to the land. According to Sand's historical analysis, they are descendents of European converts, principally from the Kingdom of the Khazars in eastern Russia, who embraced Judaism in the Eighth Century, A.D. The descendants of the Khazars then were driven from their native lands by invasion and conquest and – through migration – created the Jewish populations of Eastern Europe, Sands writes. Similarly, he argues that the Jews of Spain came from the conversion of Berber tribes from northern Africa that later migrated into Europe.
The Zionist Narrative Sand, himself a European Jew born in 1946 to Holocaust survivors in Austria, argues that until little more than a century ago, Jews thought of themselves as Jews because they shared a common religion, not because they possessed a direct lineage to the ancient tribes of Israel. However, at the turn of the 20th Century, Sand asserts, Zionist Jews began assembling a national history to justify creation of a Jewish state by inventing the idea that Jews existed as a people separate from their religion and that they had primogeniture over the territory that had become known as Palestine. The Zionists also invented the idea that Jews living in exile were obligated to return to the Promised Land, a concept that had been foreign to Judaism, Sand states.
Posted by ficheye at 04/30/2009 @ 6:37pm
tell ficheye
I'm not sure what your point is. Dr. Sand's opinion is a minority opinion on this matter, and is contradicted by DNA research which to my lay analysis appears to substantiate the anscestorial link between the Judean Jews and European Jewery. You also should know that Jews, religious and secular, for 200 years kept Jerusalem in their hearts and prayers and considered it the jewish homeland to which they would return. Zuionism merely said let's go back now instead of waiting for the Messiah.
BTW, there was a significant jewish population in Israel even before modern Zionism began. Jews always were the majority of the population in the old city of Jerusalem, and Safed also was a large Jewish community, as well as other locations throughout Israel.
Posted by gren at 05/01/2009 @ 09:17am
tell ficheye
2000, not 200. my bad
Posted by gren at 05/01/2009 @ 09:35am
there's a couple of black guys on the street corner in Harlem, who will tell you THEY are the real tribes of Israel.
Posted by emile duBois at 05/01/2009 @ 11:03am
tell ficheye I'm not sure what your point is. Posted by gren at 05/01/2009 @ 09:17am
I am aware of the history of Jews in the area of Jerusalem that you mentioned. I'm somewhat dubious of your assertions about DNA research however. I'd appreciate a link. I've only read that one article about Dr. Sand. The mitigating point to me, and a confusing one, is that other Jews seem to agree with him. (article found at consortiumnews.com)
I seek information only. By posting a point of view which questions just one part of Jewishness and their behaviors regarding Palestinians, I got the response I wanted, which was to get another opinion on the Jewish claims to definite ethnic origins. Thank you.
This is such a touchy and divisive problem that it can be very difficult to be seen as anything other than anti semitic if one merely questions this issue.
Again, I go on record as believing the Jews should definitely have the right to be a nation, ethnic purity notwithstanding, but that they should refrain from expanding their settlements into areas outside of Judea proper, now Israel. They also, in my opinion, should resolve the issue of housing for Palestinians in an honest and constructive manner, as well as addressing the water claim problems. As far as I can tell, and feel free to clarify (without abuse please), the water problem seems to be chiefly because of the ever growing industry and population of the Jewish state. I humbly await information from those in the know.
Posted by ficheye at 05/01/2009 @ 6:23pm
tell ficheye
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html
Posted by gren at 05/04/2009 @ 12:26pm
Go Jews.
Posted by apoorspic at 05/04/2009 @ 9:42pm
Obama will get his clocked cleaned. Wait a minute, it's PC to be anti-semitic.
Posted by apoorspic at 05/04/2009 @ 9:43pm