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RedditIsrael's (outgoing) prime minister, Ehud Olmert, has pretty much confirmed the news -- first reported by CBS yesterday -- that Israel bombed a convoy of arms dealers in Sudan in January to destroy a reported shipment of weapons from Iran to Hamas."Israel hits every place it can in order to stop terror, near and far," said Olmert.
An analysis from Amos Harel in Haaretz says that Israel's concern was that Iran might be sending advanced missiles to Hamas:
A reasonable assumption would be that Iran sought to provide Hamas with Fajr missiles, whose deployment in Gaza would constitute what the IDF terms as "a weapon that shifts the balance." During the Gaza lull, Hamas smuggled Katyusha rockets with an increased range from 20 kilometers to 40 kilometers. If it successfully managed to obtain Fajrs, Hamas could have placed Tel Aviv within missile range, which is exactly the coup it has sought in an effort to create the impression of a victory over Israel.
I'm not sure if that is a "reasonable assumption" or not, though it isn't outlandish. But the raid, which reportedly killed between 30 and 40 people and destroyed 17 trucks, is a big deal, even though it occurred months ago, and it could severely destabilize Sudan, inflame relations between Arab countries, Iran, and the United States, and set the stage for a response by Iran.
As Reuters reports:
Any public confirmation of a foreign attack would have a major impact in Sudan, where relations with the West are already tense following the International Criminal Court's decision this month to issue an arrest warrant for President Omar Hassan al-Bashir on charges of Darfur war crimes.
Bashir, of Sudan, was in Cairo yesterday meeting Egypt's President Mubarak. Sudan has also confirmed that the attack took place.
That same report, from the Times of London, quotes an Israeli source suggesting that US intelligence cooperated with Israel in planning the attack:
Eitan Ben Eliyahu, a former Israeli air force chief, told [Israeli] army radio that the reported Sudan raid showed that it was still too early to draw up a final assessment of the offensive in Gaza."One of the essential elements of this operation was the strengthening of co-operation, particularly with the United States, to prevent arms smuggling to Hamas," he said.
And the scope of Israel's operations may have been bigger:
In recent weeks, the outgoing Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has alluded to a series of "major operations" carried out during his term of office.In another unexplained incident, warplanes bombed five fishing boats off Sudan's Red Sea coast on January 16, wounding 25 people, Sudanese security sources told AFP.
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"it could severely destabilize Sudan"
Sudan is "stable"? So what's going on in Darfur is "stability"?!?!??
Hmmm.
Anyway, interesting despite the rhetoric from our Iran-o-phobic Right (even Netanyahu) that Israel considered an arms convoy in Sudan MORE of needing attack...
than Iran's nuclear program?!??!??
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 10:18am
When did Israel go from a respected city state to a Nation of thugs supported with the full throated backing of the united states? Can we continue to fund this rogue element of the global community? I didn't believe that insanity was transferable, but it seems to spread like the common cold.
Posted by julien38 at 03/26/2009 @ 10:26am
So the converse of Mr Dreyfuss's conclusion (and that it seems of Julien38) is that it is good to let the Sudan continue to develop as an open market for terrorists?
And that advances peace in the ME and elsewhere how?
Bravo to Israel for taking action. Certainly no one can credit the UN for doing anything productive there.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 10:42am
here is an appropo address to the UN by Egypt in 2006 concerning the failure of the UN to stop this development
Statement by the Arab Republic of Egypt to the "United Nations Conference to Review Progress Made in the Implementation of the Programme of Action to Prevent, Combat, and Eradicate the Illicit Trade in Small Arms and Light Weapons in A11 Its Aspects"
delivered by H.E. Ambassador Malted Abdelaziz Permanent Representative to the United Nations 28th of June 2006
The UN programme of action provides a clear framework for the international community's action in combating the illicit trade in small arms and light weapons .
The principles and purposes enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, including respect for the sovereignty of states and their territorial integrity and the right to self-defense, as well as the right to self-determination, in particular of peoples under foreign occupation .
The need for further efforts to combat the illicit trade in small arms and light weapons in Africa which represents by far the region most affected by such illicit trade and the emergence of conflicts . Prime among such efforts is the iu11 implementation and respect for arms embargoes and measures to address its violations.
http://tinyurl.com/dmr55e
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 10:51am
Unclear exactly what Dreyfuss' point is, but if the implication is that Israel should not have bombed an arms convoy in Sudan which could have put its national security at risk, then we can disregard it as nothing more than Dreyfuss' expected Israel-bashing. He's so predictable and dogmatic that he's incredibly boring.
Posted by gren at 03/26/2009 @ 10:55am
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 10:42am
"Israel right or wrong...as long as it's not doing anything peaceful, of course!"
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 10:56am
Anyway, interesting despite the rhetoric from our Iran-o-phobic Right (even Netanyahu) that Israel considered an arms convoy in Sudan MORE of needing attack...
than Iran's nuclear program?!??!??
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 10:18am | ignore this person | warn this person
Not sure if that's the calculus here.
It is what Israel can get away with isn't it?
'Israel has "Iranisan" operations going via Kurdish and Iranian separatist faction proxies, assassinations of key nuclear scientists, economic sabotage, politcal sabotage, etc. Report: Israel secretly sabotaging Iran's nuclear program
British Daily Telegraph quotes US intelligence officials as saying Israel using assassins, sabotage, double agents and front companies to interrupt and delay Islamic Republic's nuclear drive
Ynet Published: 02.17.09, 08:31 / Israel News
Israel is using assassins, sabotage, front companies and double agents in an effort to interrupt the Iranian nuclear program, US intelligence experts told the British Daily Telegraph.'
Posted by OneVote at 03/26/2009 @ 10:57am
Bravo to Israel for taking action. Certainly no one can credit the UN for doing anything productive there.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 10:42am | ignore this person | warn this person
Well - getting the bar rolling on Israeli war crimes in Gaza is productive isn't it Liv?
Posted by OneVote at 03/26/2009 @ 11:01am
'Olmert hints: Israel operates everywhere against terror
Amid reports of aerial strike on arms convoy in Sudan in January, PM says 'Israel operates wherever it is possible to harm terror infrastructure.' On peace process: I presented Abbas with unprecedented offer and asked him to sign. That was six months ago; I'm still waiting
Attila Somfalvi Published: 03.26.09, 16:57 / Israel News
"Israel operates wherever it is possible to harm terror infrastructure in a way that increases our deterrence," outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Thursday amid reports that in January, a weapons convoy in Sudan that was carrying weapons intended for Hamas was struck by the Israeli Air Force.'
Posted by OneVote at 03/26/2009 @ 11:06am
"Israel right or wrong...as long as it's not doing anything peaceful, of course!"
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 10:56am
So you've now gone over to the side that says Israel has no right to defend itself?
Where you one who protested when Clinton bombed an aspirin factory in Sudan?
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 11:13am
I wouldn't shed any tears if every government military facility and weapons convoy in Sudan was used as target practice by any airforce in the world. Enjoy the fruits of genocide, Sudan.
Posted by Guiles at 03/26/2009 @ 11:14am
When did Israel go from a respected city state to a Nation of thugs supported with the full throated backing of the united states? Can we continue to fund this rogue element of the global community? I didn't believe that insanity was transferable, but it seems to spread like the common cold.
Posted by julien38 at 03/26/2009 @ 10:26am | ignore this person | warn this person
Been awhile Julien.
'Evidence of Israeli War Crimes in Gaza Contributed by Stephen Lendman on Wed, 2009-03-25 19:11. In sections: Occupied Palestine Terrorism War Incriminating Evidence of Israeli War Crimes in Gaza - by Stephen Lendman
Throughout its history, Israel has willfully and repeatedly committed crimes of war and against humanity, always with impunity. Yet under customary legal standards and norms (including Geneva, Hague, the UN Charter, S.C. and G.A. resolutions), it's lawless, a serial abuser, a threat to the region and humanity, mostly as an oppressive occupier. Attacking Gaza is the latest episode in its six-decade reign of terror satisfying the definition of genocide against defenseless Palestinian civilians. This article covers more evidence from some disturbing but unsurprising newly published information.
On March 19, in the first of a series of articles, Haaretz headlined: "IDF killed civilians in Gaza under loose rules of engagement." Military correspondent Amos Harel revealed Israeli soldier and pilot ("dirty secret") testimonies of being ordered to kill unarmed civilians and destroy their property - accounts at variance with official claims that only military targets were attacked and that "Israeli troops observed a high level of moral behavior during the operation." Defense Minister Ehud Barak calls the IDF "the most moral army in the world."'
Posted by OneVote at 03/26/2009 @ 11:18am
Israeli War Crimes Under the Black Flag
By URI AVNERY; February 2, 2009 - Counterpunch
http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery02022009.html
Posted by OneVote at 03/26/2009 @ 11:22am
So you've now gone over to the side that says Israel has no right to defend itself?
Where you one who protested when Clinton bombed an aspirin factory in Sudan?
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 11:13am
No, I think Masks point wasn't that Israel has no right to defend itself. He was mocking you because the only time you agree with Israel is when they make war. If they do something that seems peaceful you criticize them.
Were you for bombing aspirin factories?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/26/2009 @ 11:34am
Were you for bombing aspirin factories?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/26/2009 @ 11:34am
I will be one who doesn't criticize Clinton for the bombing as a "diversion". I think he just received bad intel. The reasoning was solid, the intel bad.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 11:47am
No, I think Masks point wasn't that Israel has no right to defend itself. He was mocking you because the only time you agree with Israel is when they make war. If they do something that seems peaceful you criticize them.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/26/2009 @ 11:34am
Wrong; it's whose definition of peaceful. I will certainly agree that when the left deems something Israel does as peaceful, that is a sure sign that it is against Israel's future as a nation.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 11:49am
CCC,
I answered your question on the LGBT thread.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 11:51am
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 11:49am
Okay, Larry, name something peaceful that Israel has done that you agree with.
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 11:58am
CCC,
I also answered your challenge on the "thoughts on the Press Conference" thread.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 11:59am
Commander confirms Netanyahu war plans Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:36:18 GMT
The last Israeli aggression against the Gaza Strip claimed the lives of at least 1,350 Palestinians. Israel is preparing for all-out war on multiple fronts that include Iran, Syria and Lebanon, a senior military commander claims.
Israeli army Home Front Command Major General Yair Golan said Sunday that Tel Aviv is preparing for "all possible scenarios", indicating that one such scenario would be to fight a simultaneous war against Iran, Syria and Lebanon.
The confirmation comes as US President Barack Obama seeks "new beginnings" with its arch-rival Iran. The US offer has been met with world praise but with fury in Tel Aviv.
Israeli media outlets late on Sunday began propagating wild scenarios that Iran is using the Lebanese Hezbollah to recruit Palestinian fighters to carry out terror attacks on Israel.
Source: PressTv
Posted by OneVote at 03/26/2009 @ 11:59am
UN: Israel broke six-month truce in Gaza Tue, 24 Mar 2009 07:46:57 GMT
The UN report confirms Israel was the party that broke the truce. A new UN report exposes a bit of misinformation peddled by the US and Israel and shatters the Zionist illusion that the Gaza war was legal.
The report, prepared by human rights investigator Richard Falk, confirms that Tel Aviv was indeed the party that violated the Egyptian-brokered six-month truce in Gaza.
Source: PressTV
Posted by OneVote at 03/26/2009 @ 12:03pm
Any one who still thinks that Israel will accept a two state solution is delusional. Israel wanted to take over Iraq, it didn't happen. Look at a map Israel wants the Gaza, couldn't they use our really effective patriot missiles to defend against the tin can missiles, made in china, that the Palestinians had. oops. I don't believe the Israelis anymore. They had embargoed the Gaza so tightly that the Palestinians had no place to go except starve to death. Better to die for a cause. I don't know if the convoy they blew up was a food and medical supply convoy or an arms convoy and I wouldn't take their word for crap right now.I think they have become the masters of the kabuki two step. The danger is that they push China and Russia closer together and give those two humanistic regimes a chance to impact the middle east more than they have so far. I'm not against war I'm against stupid. I don't want to waste anymore precious human blood on stupid. We have created enough rage for one century. We must also not confuse Israel with Judaism.
Posted by julien38 at 03/26/2009 @ 12:14pm
Okay, Larry, name something peaceful that Israel has done that you agree with.
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 11:58am
1. Agreeing with the British Mandate partition in 1946 that gave the Arabs 75% of the land.
2. the peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt.
3. The Israeli Initiative, the Right Road to Peace
http://tinyurl.com/crl2pv
Maybe you ought to read A Durable Peace: Israel and Its Place Among the Nations by Benjamin Netenyahu; he gives the prescription for peace in the ME...allow Israel to continue as a nation.
http://tinyurl.com/cozumc
that's a start
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 12:31pm
Why doesn't anybody realize that this is most likely only the beginning of a conflict? Consider the French and the Germans: centuries of medieval warfare, Frederick, Napoleon, WWI, WWII, and only then were the boundaries fixed and peace achieved. Or Serbia: the story goes back at least to the battle of Kosovo in the 14th century. The parties involved then, the Ottoman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Tsar of all the Russias, where are they now? And the conflict continues.
Most likely this new struggle in the lands around Jerusalem will still be in the headlines in some distant future when Saudi Arabia, Iran, the European Union, The United States, and the People's Democratic Republic of China won't appear in any history books with "modern era" in the title.
Posted by Mistral at 03/26/2009 @ 1:27pm
Good for the Israelis. I'll take their "reasonable assumptions" long before I'll take those of Mr Dreyfuss: Gotta figure the former is based much more on facts than political outlook.
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 03/26/2009 @ 1:27pm
Good for the Israelis. I'll take their "reasonable assumptions" long before I'll take those of Mr Dreyfuss: Gotta figure the former is based much more on facts than political outlook.
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 03/26/2009 @ 1:27pm
Good for the Israelis. I'll take their "reasonable assumptions" long before I'll take those of Mr Dreyfuss: Gotta figure the former is based much more on facts than political outlook.
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 03/26/2009 @ 1:27pm
Oh, brother! "Reasonable assumptions," eh? Israel comes up with a zillion excuses as to why it should go on the attack. And since they're using US dollars and weaponry, the US gets tarred with the same brush. But let's just let them do whatever they want with impunity. If what they're doing, say, when they bomb Gaza, is on the up & up, why did they not allow foreign journalists into Gaza to record what was happening? Could it have been that they didn't WANT the world to know they were perpetrating genocide?
"Maybe you ought to read A Durable Peace: Israel and Its Place Among the Nations by Benjamin Netenyahu; he gives the prescription for peace in the ME...allow Israel to continue as a nation.
Posted by antisocialist"
In case you haven't been paying attention, the Palestinians have agreed to recognize Israel's right to exist. But it's Israel who is trying to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the [Israeli] map! Take a look at the maps of Israel and the Occupied Territories over the years. lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com > Maps
Oh, and Hamas? Yeah, Israel propped up Hamas back when Fatah was the Palestinians' governing force. Were you aware of that? Seems they took a page from the US's book.
Posted by DiMAndrews at 03/26/2009 @ 2:03pm
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 12:31pm
Isn't the "Israel Initiative" whereby Israel retakes all of Gaza and the West Bank and tells the Palestinians to become Israeli citizens or move to Jordan?
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 2:06pm
Let's stick to facts instead of propoganda.
http://www.mideastweb.org/lastmaps.htm
If you have a source for different facts, bring it on and let's discuss. But ideological propoganda is for brainwashed dopes.
BTW, Livni apparently was offering similar terms (i.e., 93% of the West Bank for a Palestinian state) to the PA since Annapolis, but the militant extremists of Fatah and Hamas continue to hold an effective veto over any Israeli offer which does not allow a right to return and complete Palestinian sovereignty of the Temple Mount and the Arab quarters of the Old City. Since Israel will never make that offer, it is a stalemate.
Posted by gren at 03/26/2009 @ 2:16pm
What Israel does is Israel's business, but , besides al-Qaida, I am leery of U.S. involvement in operations against nationalist insurgencies that do not pose a threat to the United States. Whatever one's opinion, Hamas is a major player in Palestinian politics, and therefore central to the peace process. Everyone must be brought to the table if there is to be a two state solution.
Posted by P. J. Casey at 03/26/2009 @ 2:26pm
We're next, if we don't all sign up for the zionists next war, with Iran.
Posted by DejaVu at 03/26/2009 @ 3:00pm
i'm so sick of this nonsense.....
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/26/2009 @ 3:09pm
In case you haven't been paying attention, the Palestinians have agreed to recognize Israel's right to exist. But it's Israel who is trying to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the [Israeli] map! Take a look at the maps of Israel and the Occupied Territories over the years. lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com > Maps
Posted by DiMAndrews at 03/26/2009 @ 2:03pm
I see we have another jihadist apologist joining the fray.
Your statements are full of the usual Arab lies.
The Arabs received 75% of the British Mandate land back in 1947-It's now called Jordan
And recognizing Israel? That's a joke. I can quote all day long from both Fatah and Hamas on the destruction of Israel-and current quotes at that.
Start with
Sheikh Nizar Rayan (Arabic: نزار ريان, also transliterated Rayyan) (March 6, 1959 – January 1, 2009) was a top Hamas leader who served as a liaison between the Palestinian organization's political leadership and its military wing. Also a professor of Islamic law, he came to be considered a top clerical authority within Hamas after the death of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004.
Rayan was fundamentally opposed to the state of Israel.[15] According to writer Jeffrey Goldberg, he at one time stated, "True Islam would never allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God."[25] Goldberg also reported that Rayan said he believed Jews are a "cursed people" some of whom were transformed into pigs and apes by Allah,[25] and that Jews must pay for murdering the prophets of Islam and "closing [their] ears to the Messenger of Allah."[25]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizar_Rayyan
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 3:11pm
I will be one who doesn't criticize Clinton for the bombing as a "diversion". I think he just received bad intel. The reasoning was solid, the intel bad.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 11:47am
Do you agree that we should have then withheld aid and not helped them rebuild their factory? Leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths in the region?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/26/2009 @ 3:22pm
American writer Jeffrey Goldberg states that when he asked Hamas hardliner[47] Nizar Rayyan if he could envision a 50-year hudna (cease-fire) with Israel, Rayyan responded, "The only reason to have a hudna is to prepare yourself for the final battle. We don't need 50 years to prepare ourselves for the final battle with Israel. Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God."[48] Steven Erlanger of the New York Times comments that Hamas excludes the possibility of permanent reconciliation with Israel. "Since the Prophet Muhammad made a temporary hudna, or truce, with the Jews about 1,400 years ago, Hamas allows the idea. But no one in Hamas says he would make a peace treaty with Israel or permanently give up any part of Palestine.".[49] Mkhaimer Abusada, a political scientist at Al Azhar University writes that Hamas talks "of hudna, not of peace or reconciliation with Israel. They believe over time they will be strong enough to liberate all historic Palestine."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
Article 7 of the Hamas Covenant provides the following quotation, attributed to Mohammed: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
It is contained in Hadith Sahih Al-Bukari Book 52 number 176-177
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 3:25pm
And Abbas and Fatah are no different than Hamas
And Fatah is no different
In an in-depth interview published today in the Jordanian daily Al-Dustur on February 28, Abbas said that the PA is "unable" to pursue armed conflict for now, but said that "in the future stages things may be different."
He rejected Israel as a Jewish state, and said that it was the PA's rejection of Israel's Jewishness that almost aborted the Annapolis Conference last November.
Abbas said that he won't demand that Hamas recognize Israel. In fact, as PMW has reported in the past, he said that the only "recognition" of Israel he demands of a Palestinian unity government is to recognize Israel as its adversary.
Here are some quotes from that interview:
"Now we are against armed conflict because we are unable. In the future stages, things may be different... " The Palestinian President emphasized his rejection of what is described as the Jewishness of the state [Israel], and said: "We rejected this proposal at the Annapolis conference last November in the USA, and the conference was almost aborted because of it..."
http://www.likud.nl/extr452.html
"When Israel's ideology will collapse, and after we take Jerusalem, Israel's ideology will collapse altogether, and then we will proceed with our own ideology, inshallah [if Allah wills], and we will throw them out of all of Palestine." So said Abbas Zaki, the Palestinian Authority's ambassador to Lebanon on Lebanese television last week, according to a translation by MEMRI (Middle East Media Research Institute). April 14, 2008
http://www.likud.nl/extr457.html
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 3:28pm
The Palestinian Jews would make the Nazis blush
Posted by ehross at 03/26/2009 @ 3:59pm
Do you agree that we should have then withheld aid and not helped them rebuild their factory? Leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths in the region?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/26/2009 @ 3:22pm
Not at all. I'm simply saying that I didn't and don't criticize Clinton for making what he thought was a sound judgment at the time militarily.
Once we learned the error, it was good to make amends.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 4:10pm
Placing aside the stupidity entailed in helping Israel, a nation hated by all its neighbors, attack Hamas, a party we will ultimately negotiate with if there will ever be peace and if we are ever to be seen as honest brokers for peace, helping Israel violate Sudanese sovereignty was stupid, too. The US should cease facilitating Israeli violence. Sudan has a terrible regime but if the US is to facilitate what could be taken as an act of war against Sudan, it should be because the US wishes to go to war with Sudan, not because the Israelis can't relate to the Palestinians with any solution besides subjugation and violence.
Posted by syfriendly at 03/26/2009 @ 4:48pm
Once we learned the error, it was good to make amends.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 4:10pm
Just asking, trying to get your perspective on that matter.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/26/2009 @ 4:50pm
" ... This is a war against an entire people, not against specific terrorists.` The whole thing was turned into something very religious and messianic.' ..."
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=32676
We need to understand that the Israelis are not modern, Western sophisticates like us. They are in general: backwards, and frequently racist, and frequently religious and/or nationalist fanatics. They have a complete history of failing to relate to the rest of the world around them through any means but violence or threats of violence or disregarding of law. The fanaticism in particular on the rise in Israel should disquiet American political leaders and give them reason to pause before facilitating any further acts of Israeli violence.
Posted by syfriendly at 03/26/2009 @ 4:50pm
We need to understand that the Israelis are not modern, Western sophisticates like us. They are in general: backwards, and frequently racist, and frequently religious and/or nationalist fanatics. They have a complete history of failing to relate to the rest of the world around them through any means but violence or threats of violence or disregarding of law.
Posted by syfriendly at 03/26/2009 @ 4:50pm
if there was any doubt about the bigotry of Syfriendly, this post should end that.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 5:56pm
To accept the existence of the Palestinian Jews we are asked to treat the Palestinian children as worthless, They not entitled to return to their home/homeland, to be shot if it suits the goals of the Jewish rabbis/military storm troopers, to have no future, to be ruled [if allowed to live] by a fanatical religious extremist cult. Surely the time is now to deal with these causative animals
Posted by ehross at 03/26/2009 @ 6:11pm
A famous historic person is said to have said, "By their fruits you shall know them." The more the government of Israel or Sudan or Saudi Arabia acts to dehumanize other human beings, the more inhuman the government becomes. The same is true for Hamas, the Taliban and the United States government. Actions speak much louder than words, and any act of violence screams and swears by this inverse moral law. The ever shifting and elusive future 'good' ends will always justify any and all present 'evil' means. A "War on Terror" is the same as a "War on Humanity" Living gods and supermen are always founded upon the bones of the 'less than supermen' and the all too human gods created to evince the same false claim. One shudders to think why none of this history and our common humanity matters to the blind and deceptive leaders of these nations.
Posted by architect at 03/26/2009 @ 6:46pm
Posted by syfriendly at 03/26/2009 @ 4:50pm |
All of this has no evidence to support it. While I am not for Israel killing Palestinians I don't agree that they have a bloody culture. They have had to defend themselves many times in the past through no fault of their own. They are no more a violent people than anyone else. Yes there religion is important to them. Does that make them fanatics? No. Hamas are fanatics. The Jews as a whole are just Jews. There are some fanatics amongst them but not even most of them are.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/26/2009 @ 6:51pm
So why was this decision to bomb a Sudanese convoy bound for Hamas bad again?
Posted by Thrawn at 03/26/2009 @ 7:01pm
More Arab peace talk
Hamas would "definitely not" be prepared for coexistence with Israel should the IDF retreat to its 1967 borders. "It can be a temporary solution, for a maximum of 5 to 10 years. But in the end Palestine must return to become Muslim, and in the long term Israel will disappear from the face of the earth." -- Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar Yediot Ahronot, June 24, 2005
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 7:14pm
Fatah's "peace" constitution
CHAPTER ONE
Principles... Goals.... Methods
The Movement's Essential Principles
Article (1) Palestine is part of the Arab World, and the Palestinian people are part of the Arab Nation, and their struggle is part of its struggle.
Article (2) The Palestinian people have an independent identity. They are the sole authority that decides their own destiny, and they have complete sovereignty on all their lands.
Article (3) The Palestinian Revolution plays a leading role in liberating Palestine.
Article (4) The Palestinian struggle is part and parcel of the world-wide struggle against Zionism, colonialism and international imperialism.
Article (5) Liberating Palestine is a national obligation which necessities the materialistic and human support of the Arab Nation.
Article (6) UN projects, accords and resolutions, or those of any individual which undermine the Palestinian people's right in their homeland are illegal and rejected.
Article (7) The Zionist Movement is racial, colonial and aggressive in ideology, goals, organisation and method.
Article (8) The Israeli existence in Palestine is a Zionist invasion with a colonial expansive base, and it is a natural ally to colonialism and international imperialism.
Article (9) Liberating Palestine and protecting its holy places is an Arab, religious and human obligation.
Article (12) Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence.
Article (13) Establishing an independent democratic state with complete sovereignty on all Palestinian lands, and Jerusalem is its capital city, and protecting the citizens' legal and equal rights without any racial or religious discrimination.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 7:16pm
more from the Fatah "peace" constitution
Article (17) Armed public revolution is the inevitable method to liberating Palestine.
Article (18) Entire dependence on the Palestinian people which is the pedestal forefront and on the Arab Nation as a partner in the fight, and realising actual interaction between the Arab Nation and the Palestinian people by involving the Arab people in the fight through a united Arab front.
Article (19) Armed struggle is a strategy and not a tactic, and the Palestinian Arab People's armed revolution is a decisive factor in the liberation fight and in uprooting the Zionist existence, and this struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished and Palestine is completely liberated.
Article (22) Opposing any political solution offered as an alternative to demolishing the Zionist occupation in Palestine, as well as any project intended to liquidate the Palestinian case or impose any international mandate on its people.
http://www.mideastweb.org/fateh.htm
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 7:21pm
So why was this decision to bomb a Sudanese convoy bound for Hamas bad again?
Posted by Thrawn at 03/26/2009 @ 7:01pm
Once the jews have been eliminated we can focus all of our righteous anger on the christian menace.
Posted by gangpapist at 03/26/2009 @ 7:27pm
Thrawn
Good idea, The Catholics celebrate St Bartholomew Day, The day the French Catholics massacred the Protestants.
Another lunatic religious sect..........
Posted by ehross at 03/26/2009 @ 8:33pm
Hey, Larry, did you miss my question...
the "Israel Initiative"....it's your plan for Israel re-taking Gaza and the West Bank permanently, right?
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 8:34pm
Hey, Larry, did you miss my question...
the "Israel Initiative"....it's your plan for Israel re-taking Gaza and the West Bank permanently, right?
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 8:34pm
It's not my plan Mask. But I agree with most of it.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 8:46pm
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 8:46pm
Yes...and the basic premise of it is.....?
(or was I basically right?)
Posted by Mask at 03/26/2009 @ 9:04pm
Terrorist countries that destabilize the region should be met with overwhelming force.
That's why I support flattening Israel--a nuclear-equipped Nazi menace--as soon as possible
Posted by rykart at 03/26/2009 @ 10:04pm
<i>Posted by rykart at 03/26/2009 @ 10:04pm </i>
Surely you can't POSSIBLY argue that this doesn't cross the line into antisemitism. It's literally "so all of those people who live in Israel, ALL of them...kill 'em, they're not really human beings at all. And by them...I mean Jews." The fact that the scope is confined to Israel doesn't excuse it.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/26/2009 @ 10:27pm
Posted by Thrawn at 03/26/2009 @ 10:27pm
Can you imagine how many Abu Ghraibs and worse there would have been in Iraq if military people looked at Iraqis or Afghans the way people like rykart and others look at Jews?
Posted by gangpapist at 03/26/2009 @ 10:48pm
i'm so sick of this nonsense.
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/26/2009 @ 10:49pm
i'm so sick of this nonsense.
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/26/2009 @ 10:49pm
It's not gonna end. Ever.
Posted by Benchrest at 03/26/2009 @ 11:56pm
It's like I said....ANY thread even vaguely discussing Israel breaks down into a few middle of the roaders...and
"________ are evil! They only want to kill people! No peace is possible with such monsters! Let the Other Side do whatever it takes to end their maliciousness, they are the agreived party!!!"
(simply a matter of filling in the blank with which ever side you don't like....Israel or Hamas)
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 08:35am
Were you for bombing aspirin factories?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/26/2009 @ 11:34am
I will be one who doesn't criticize Clinton for the bombing as a "diversion". I think he just received bad intel. The reasoning was solid, the intel bad.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/26/2009 @ 11:47am | ignore this person | warn this person
This is classic - Don't criticize Clinton for action on bad intel - But Bush is a war criminal for acting on bad intel (not just ours, the entire world's)regarding WMD in Iraq. This is the reason nobody takes the Left seriously on foreign policy.
Posted by ProudLibertarian at 03/27/2009 @ 08:51am
Posted by ProudLibertarian at 03/27/2009 @ 08:51am
I'm sorry, PL....did you just call anti-soc...a "Leftist"?!???!?
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 10:40am
I'm sorry, PL....did you just call anti-soc...a "Leftist"?!???!?
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 10:40am
Yes, he did.
Pretty funny!
Posted by Benchrest at 03/27/2009 @ 10:45am
Posted by Benchrest at 03/27/2009 @ 10:45am
Good Lord, do you really think there could be ANYBODY so far to the Right that they would think LARRY!!!!! is a "Leftist"??!?????!?
That's so far off one end of the political spectrum as to be in some kind of hyperspace!
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 11:11am
And little Marty Peretz over at his home, The New Republic, is running around waving his toy guns shouting at the top of his voice "Don't F*CK With the Israelis!"(the actual headline to his story about this), seemingly delighted at the death and destruction his beloved Israeli air force has rained down on Sudan.
He's also very touchy about any remarks left that reflect badly on him or the Israelis, and uses his power there to delete any comments detrimental to his beloved cause, Israeli domination of the Middle East, or that question him personally!
Posted by wagonjak at 03/27/2009 @ 11:16am
Good Lord, do you really think there could be ANYBODY so far to the Right that they would think LARRY!!!!! is a "Leftist"??!?????!?
That's so far off one end of the political spectrum as to be in some kind of hyperspace!
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 11:11am
I've got to admit that I got a good laugh when I read that post by Proudlibertarian.
He/she must be new here. I mean, even I know that I'm to the right of many people.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 11:21am
PL: "This is classic - Don't criticize Clinton for action on bad intel - But Bush is a war criminal for acting on bad intel (not just ours, the entire world's)regarding WMD in Iraq. This is the reason nobody takes the Left seriously on foreign policy."
Bush isn't a war criminal for acting on bad intel, he is a war criminal for manufacturing bad intel to support his predetermined policy. Including outing undercover CIA agents to punish those who objected to his manufactured intel. Manufactured links to terrorism, stories of yellow cake uranium, sending back intel assessment multiple times until he got the assessment he wanted. It's possible that Cheney drove most of this, but Bush certainly turned a blind eye to it so that he could get the results he wanted.
Posted by Guiles at 03/27/2009 @ 11:29am
This is classic - Don't criticize Clinton for action on bad intel - But Bush is a war criminal for acting on bad intel (not just ours, the entire world's)regarding WMD in Iraq. This is the reason nobody takes the Left seriously on foreign policy.
Posted by ProudLibertarian at 03/27/2009 @ 08:51am
Actually, LVL is a die hard right winger. You are obviously new here.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 03/27/2009 @ 11:33am
Rykart:"Terrorist countries that destabilize the region should be met with overwhelming force.
That's why I support flattening Israel--a nuclear-equipped Nazi menace--as soon as possible"
Comments like this make it easier to tar rational critics of Israel with the antisemetic broad brush. You are helping the hardliners in U.S., Israel and the Arab world continue the conflict. Congratulations on enabling Israeli oppression with your raving lunacy.
Posted by Guiles at 03/27/2009 @ 11:54am
My previous post also applies to comments by syfriendly, particularly those quoted by LL/AS.
Posted by Guiles at 03/27/2009 @ 12:00pm
He/she must be new here. I mean, even I know that I'm to the right of many people.----Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 11:21am
Faint pride, Larry. You make Limbaugh look like Jim Jeffords.
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 12:17pm
It is profoundly racist NOT to bomb israel.
If any other country in the region had attacked, brutalized and massacred its neighbors repeatedly, in the course of their oppression and dispossession of indigenous inhabitants, as Israel has, the US would attack it and destroy it and few would argue with the wisdom of doing so.
Posted by rykart at 03/27/2009 @ 12:24pm
Faint pride, Larry. You make Limbaugh look like Jim Jeffords.
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 12:17pm
though you didn't intend it that way,thank you; I agree.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 12:31pm
'CBS reported that 39 people were killed when Israeli Air Force planes bombed the convoy in eastern Sudan, destroying 17 trucks. It is understood the trucks were due to travel north, through Egypt, where their cargo was reported to be headed into Gaza.
Sudan, however, has claimed the death toll was much higher -- Sudan's Minister for Highways, Mabrouk Saleem, told al-Jazeera the trucks were carrying civilians, rather than weapons, and that about 800 people were killed. He said among the dead were people from Sudan, Ethiopia and Eritrea.'
Olmert hints that his jets hit Sudan convoy; The Australian, 03/28/09; John Lyons - Excerpt
Anybody seen any photographs? Sudan would be pretty stupid to try to run a convoy of 17 arms carrying trucks while under constant satellite surveilance. I heard the convoy was basically incinerated - leaving little evidence. No survivors. Were incendiaries used? Very strange - like Saddam's march home on the road of death during the first Gulf War.
Posted by OneVote at 03/27/2009 @ 12:44pm
one vote
Don't worry. Guiles assures us it is legal for israel to use these people as target practice.
Posted by rykart at 03/27/2009 @ 12:52pm
<i>Posted by rykart at 03/27/2009 @ 12:24pm </i>
Hmm...let's see. Attacking and massacring neighbors. Nope, not so much. Whom have they attacked and massacred? Combined forces sitting on their border? Not a bad thing. Hezbollah? Also legitimate. Hamas? See rockets (plus the ones they may have been trying to get through Sudan).
But what about the indigenous population part? Though I fully concede that they did some really bad stuff when they went in, the fact remains that they have not at all been trying to wipe out that population. The whole reason they built the wall was to stem attacks, and even then they've still been shipping supplies to the Palestinian population. Israel is far from perfect, but it's not even remotely near what you're describing.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/27/2009 @ 12:57pm
one vote
Don't worry. Guiles assures us it is legal for israel to use these people as target practice.
Posted by rykart at 03/27/2009 @ 12:52pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Well it would seem that Israel could release some satellite photos and attack tapes to document that the convoy was not in fact carrying civlians. Likely, you don't knock off a convoy of 17 trucks with one pass. Tapes and satellite recon could show alot.
Posted by OneVote at 03/27/2009 @ 1:01pm
Sudan, however, has claimed the death toll was much higher -- Sudan's Minister for Highways, Mabrouk Saleem, told al-Jazeera the trucks were carrying civilians, rather than weapons, and that about 800 people were killed. He said among the dead were people from Sudan, Ethiopia and Eritrea.'
Olmert hints that his jets hit Sudan convoy; The Australian, 03/28/09; John Lyons - Excerpt
Anybody seen any photographs? Sudan would be pretty stupid to try to run a convoy of 17 arms carrying trucks while under constant satellite surveilance. I heard the convoy was basically incinerated - leaving little evidence. No survivors. Were incendiaries used? Very strange - like Saddam's march home on the road of death during the first Gulf War.
Posted by OneVote at 03/27/2009 @ 12:44pm
This would be the same Sudan that denies any genocide in Darfur?
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 1:07pm
"The whole reason they built the wall was to stem attacks, "
thrawn..kindly educate yourself:
http://tiny.cc/B3jyf
Latest on israel massacre in Sudan:
http://tiny.cc/rFryC
Posted by rykart at 03/27/2009 @ 1:12pm
This would be the same Sudan that denies any genocide in Darfur?
This would be the same Israel that denies a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, denies the use of white phosphorus in gaza, denies that the wall is illegal under international law, denies that the settlements are illegal under international law, denies the atrocities reported by the entire human rights community......??
Posted by rykart at 03/27/2009 @ 1:15pm
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 12:31pm
NP, I won't stand for ANYBODY to call you a "Leftist"....LOL
BTW, I'd still like a more definitive answer to my question...
the "Israel Initiative" that you support, is basically "Israel retakes Gaza and the West Bank permanently and the Palestinians can either lump it or move back to 'their real home' Jordan".....right?
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 1:51pm
Posted by OneVote at 03/27/2009 @ 12:44pm
This would be the same Sudan that denies any genocide in Darfur?
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 1:07pm
So Sudan carries the burden of proof here?
Posted by OneVote at 03/27/2009 @ 2:13pm
Rykart:"Don't worry. Guiles assures us it is legal for israel to use these people as target practice."
Your reading comprehension is lacking. I specifically said military targets, and I made no assertions as to the legality of Israel's actions, I just said I wouldn't shed any tears over military targets of a genocidal regime.
I've quoted you directly when responding to you and I haven't distorted your words. Please show me the same courtesy.
Posted by Guiles at 03/27/2009 @ 2:20pm
guiles
It's the fact that you seem to see no issue in Israel violating Sudan's sovereignty and dropping bombs on what the Israelis---notorious pathological liars---claim is a military target, that I find troubling.
Recently, such military targets in Gaza have included 3 UN schools for children, numerous civilian homes, mosques, government ministries, traffic police, etc.
On the other hand, you imply that bombing a murderous regime responsible for untold suffering is "anti-semitic" should the regime be located in Tel Aviv.
Curious.
Posted by rykart at 03/27/2009 @ 2:26pm
So Sudan carries the burden of proof here?
Posted by OneVote at 03/27/2009 @ 2:13pm
yes, since they also claim it was the US who carried out the attack.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 2:30pm
Rykart:"It is profoundly racist NOT to bomb israel.
If any other country in the region had attacked, brutalized and massacred its neighbors repeatedly, in the course of their oppression and dispossession of indigenous inhabitants, as Israel has, the US would attack it and destroy it and few would argue with the wisdom of doing so."
I don't see anybody advocating we attack and destroy China, which has done all the things you mentions in Tibet.
Quite a few of us were against the current war in Iraq, which did similar things in the Iran war and to the Kurds. Saddam's regime killed far more Iranians than Israel has killed Palestinians.
"Flattening" Israel would kill many civilians, including many palestinians who make up 20% of Israel's population. You propose an insane overreaction to the Israel's occupation of Palestine, when Israel could most likely be forced to the negotiating table simply by cutting off U.S. aid. Your proposed "final" solution for Israel is so outrageous it actually helps Israel by making them look like a victim. Enjoy helping the Israeli right wing with your insanity.
Posted by Guiles at 03/27/2009 @ 2:43pm
BTW, I'd still like a more definitive answer to my question...
the "Israel Initiative" that you support, is basically "Israel retakes Gaza and the West Bank permanently and the Palestinians can either lump it or move back to 'their real home' Jordan".....right?
Posted by Mask at 03/27/2009 @ 1:51pm
I fully agree with the initiatives conclusions that only through this solution will there ever be any chance for peace in the region.
BTW, it is never mentioned any more, but until 1988, Arabs living in the West Bank were Jordanian citizens. King Hussein revoked their citizenship when Arafat launched the first intifada.
And as noted in the initiative, various polls show up to 50% of Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza are open to moving to another country if they have a decent opportunity for a new life.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 2:44pm
Guiles
You talk about the "Israeli right wing." I don't know who that is. Tzipi Livni has far more blood on her hands than Avigdor Leiberman (though this may soon change). The "civilians" you speak of (probably a misnomer in a militarized society with mandatory membership in a terrorist organization, the IDF) enthusiastically support the Gaza massacre with very close to unanimity, according to Israeli polls.
We're talking about a thoroughly Nazified society which poses an intolerable threat not only to the region but to the world, owing to Israel's huge nuclear arsenal and their history of violent psychosis.
China has not sealed the Tibetans in an open air concentration camp where it starves and bombards them from air, sea and land. Nor do I see any evidence they constitute a nuclear threat.
As to the Iran-Iraq tragedy, I'm sure you are aware that that was a Made-in-America affair.
Posted by rykart at 03/27/2009 @ 3:57pm
Posted by OneVote at 03/27/2009 @ 2:13pm
yes, since they also claim it was the US who carried out the attack.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/27/2009 @ 2:30pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I am concerned about the pretext of attack (this was a major arms convoy with serious armaments?). That burden is on Israel as the aggressor.
Considering our pro-Israel media, there would be little likelihood that any evidence disputing Israel's claim will ever the light of day.
Posted by OneVote at 03/27/2009 @ 5:59pm