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RedditThe withdrawal of Chas Freeman as chairman of the National Intelligence Council, following two weeks of vituperative attacks on him by the amen chorus of the U.S. Zionist lobby is a black mark on the Obama administration.
As I wrote two weeks ago, when the campaign against Freeman began, if Barack Obama can't stand up to the likes of Marty Peretz, Jonathan Chait, Steve Rosen, and other snarky critics, and if the White House can't defend a critical intelligence pick when that person is savaged by Republican sharks smelling blood in the water, then how can we expect Obama to stand up to Bibi Netanyahu and his even more radical ally, Avigdor Lieberman, when they confront Obama over Middle East policy?
It's sad, and worrying.
Expect gloating in the pages of The New Republic, National Review, The Weekly Standard, at Fox News, in the corridors at the American Enterprise Institute and AIPAC, and in the right-wing and neocon blogs.
Joining in on the trashing of Freeman were the (let's face it) hard-line Jews of the Democratic Congress, including Senator Charles Schumer of New York, Rep. Steve Israel (yes, he is actually named "Israel") of New York, and of course, that former Democrat, Joe Lieberman -- all of whom crowded into the amen corner with AIPAC.
The Post, writing this morning about opposition to Freeman by seven Republican members of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, quoted Freeman from 2007: "The brutal oppression of the Palestinians by the Israeli occupation shows no sign of ending. ... American identification with Israel has become total."
You can, apparently, believe anything but that.
Nearly four years ago, I interviewed Freeman about the disastrous appointment of Porter Goss as CIA director, who was installed by then-President Bush as a political watchdog over an agency that is supposed to speak truth to power. Goss, Freeman told me then, was sent to Langley to "impose a vision on [the CIA] that its analysts and operatives reject as simply not based on reality," he told me. "It's totalitarian. We are going to end up with an agency that is more right-wing, more conformist, and less prone to produce people with original views and dissenters."
I guess we know, now, that there's no room for dissenters in the intelligence community, now, either.
Late on Tuesday, Freeman issued the following statement:
To all who supported me or gave me words of encouragement during the controversy of the past two weeks, you have my gratitude and respect.You will by now have seen the statement by Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair reporting that I have withdrawn my previous acceptance of his invitation to chair the National Intelligence Council.
I have concluded that the barrage of libelous distortions of my record would not cease upon my entry into office. The effort to smear me and to destroy my credibility would instead continue. I do not believe the National Intelligence Council could function effectively while its chair was under constant attack by unscrupulous people with a passionate attachment to the views of a political faction in a foreign country. I agreed to chair the NIC to strengthen it and protect it against politicization, not to introduce it to efforts by a special interest group to assert control over it through a protracted political campaign.
As those who know me are well aware, I have greatly enjoyed life since retiring from government. Nothing was further from my mind than a return to public service. When Admiral Blair asked me to chair the NIC I responded that I understood he was "asking me to give my freedom of speech, my leisure, the greater part of my income, subject myself to the mental colonoscopy of a polygraph, and resume a daily commute to a job with long working hours and a daily ration of political abuse." I added that I wondered "whether there wasn't some sort of downside to this offer." I was mindful that no one is indispensable; I am not an exception. It took weeks of reflection for me to conclude that, given the unprecedentedly challenging circumstances in which our country now finds itself abroad and at home, I had no choice but accept the call to return to public service. I thereupon resigned from all positions that I had held and all activities in which I was engaged. I now look forward to returning to private life, freed of all previous obligations.
I am not so immodest as to believe that this controversy was about me rather than issues of public policy. These issues had little to do with the NIC and were not at the heart of what I hoped to contribute to the quality of analysis available to President Obama and his administration. Still, I am saddened by what the controversy and the manner in which the public vitriol of those who devoted themselves to sustaining it have revealed about the state of our civil society. It is apparent that we Americans cannot any longer conduct a serious public discussion or exercise independent judgment about matters of great importance to our country as well as to our allies and friends.
The libels on me and their easily traceable email trails show conclusively that there is a powerful lobby determined to prevent any view other than its own from being aired, still less to factor in American understanding of trends and events in the Middle East. The tactics of the Israel Lobby plumb the depths of dishonor and indecency and include character assassination, selective misquotation, the willful distortion of the record, the fabrication of falsehoods, and an utter disregard for the truth. The aim of this Lobby is control of the policy process through the exercise of a veto over the appointment of people who dispute the wisdom of its views, the substitution of political correctness for analysis, and the exclusion of any and all options for decision by Americans and our government other than those that it favors.
There is a special irony in having been accused of improper regard for the opinions of foreign governments and societies by a group so clearly intent on enforcing adherence to the policies of a foreign government – in this case, the government of Israel. I believe that the inability of the American public to discuss, or the government to consider, any option for US policies in the Middle East opposed by the ruling faction in Israeli politics has allowed that faction to adopt and sustain policies that ultimately threaten the existence of the state of Israel. It is not permitted for anyone in the United States to say so. This is not just a tragedy for Israelis and their neighbors in the Middle East; it is doing widening damage to the national security of the United States.
The outrageous agitation that followed the leak of my pending appointment will be seen by many to raise serious questions about whether the Obama administration will be able to make its own decisions about the Middle East and related issues. I regret that my willingness to serve the new administration has ended by casting doubt on its ability to consider, let alone decide what policies might best serve the interests of the United States rather than those of a Lobby intent on enforcing the will and interests of a foreign government.
In the court of public opinion, unlike a court of law, one is guilty until proven innocent. The speeches from which quotations have been lifted from their context are available for anyone interested in the truth to read. The injustice of the accusations made against me has been obvious to those with open minds. Those who have sought to impugn my character are uninterested in any rebuttal that I or anyone else might make.
Still, for the record: I have never sought to be paid or accepted payment from any foreign government, including Saudi Arabia or China, for any service, nor have I ever spoken on behalf of a foreign government, its interests, or its policies. I have never lobbied any branch of our government for any cause, foreign or domestic. I am my own man, no one else's, and with my return to private life, I will once again – to my pleasure – serve no master other than myself. I will continue to speak out as I choose on issues of concern to me and other Americans.
I retain my respect and confidence in President Obama and DNI Blair. Our country now faces terrible challenges abroad as well as at home. Like all patriotic Americans, I continue to pray that our president can successfully lead us in surmounting them.
I'll be updating this post during the week, so stay tuned.
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Robert Dreyfuss
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Independent thinker? I guess so was Mao's policies Freeman agreed with and the Islamic Terrorist that plauge the world!
"Mr. Freeman's selection as chairman of the council was a poor choice from the beginning," Hoekstra said. "Given his financial dealings with a Chinese state-run oil company and the backing of his think tank by the government of Saudi Arabia, it raises serious questions about the vetting that was done by the administration. Mr. Freeman's extensive record of questionable public statements, including those that seemed to defend the Tiananmen Square massacre and raise questions about the American character following the 9-11 attacks, should have been more than enough to give the administration pause."
Posted by comancheamerican at 03/10/2009 @ 6:38pm
Obama running about average, Mr Dreyfuss.
Remember the stink over Hilda Solis?...but she made it through.
But since the magic words ("Israel", "AIPAC", etc.) have been spoken the Great Spell of Thread-Making has been cast and we're in for a hundred posts on the Usual Stuff.
Posted by Mask at 03/10/2009 @ 6:43pm
Blame Obamanation Mask his appointee had all the fine charactoristics of Mao, Marx, Lenin, and maybe even a little Adolf all rolled into one! Israel is a very convenient scapegoat for all the anti-semetics and other haters of the world!
Posted by comancheamerican at 03/10/2009 @ 6:48pm
>>>"The brutal oppression of the Palestinians by the Israeli occupation shows no sign of ending. ... American identification with Israel has become total."<<<
That pretty much sums it up!
How can ANYONE take issue with this statement by Freeman? The central stumbling block in getting peace between Israel and the Palestinians is the US's lopsided support for the views of right wing elements within the Israeli government.
By selling out our "honest broker" status to the Israeli Lobby, we are no longer seen as a credible and constructive player in the peace process there. And given the intelligence lapses that led to our invading Iraq, why would anyone in their right mind want more of the same AIPACers in key positions in our intelligence community?
They say Israeli intelligence is superior, but I say if it is we are getting the short end of the stick, as the Israeli intelligence that is given to us appears to be self-serving and not an honest appraisal of what is actually going on.
US and Israeli government interests share many points in common, but where they diverge - and ending the conflict in Palestine is one area - we need to make it clear to Israel and their lobbyists in no uncertain terms that WE WILL NOT ALLOW THE TAIL TO WAG THE DOG because the interests in international peace, security, and world stability require us not to.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/10/2009 @ 6:55pm
Israel is a very convenient scapegoat for all the anti-semetics and other haters of the world!
Posted by comancheamerican at 03/10/2009 @ 6:48pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Speak of the devil and along comes Metteyya!
Posted by comancheamerican at 03/10/2009 @ 7:09pm
Now, tell us which Party politicized just about every Bush appointee?
Regardless of your party, our process "to confirm" someone today, leans far more toward "to challenge" someone.....and then, for the opposition party, if possible, to chew the nominees up and spit them out if possible.
Reap what you sowed!
Posted by Happy at 03/10/2009 @ 7:10pm
>>>Speak of the devil and along comes Metteyya!
Posted by comancheamerican at 03/10/2009 @ 7:09pm<<<
If I am an anti-Semite, THEN WE ALL NEED TO BE ANTI-SEMITES!
Standing up for honest intelligence gathering is in THIS country's best interest, and for those who are citizens of the US but swear allegiance to a lobby of a foreign government, I ask you to consider the definition of treason:
"whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death".
Providing false and misleading intelligence to this country to influence it to take actions that are not in its best interest IS treason.
And while Israel is NOT an "enemy" of the United States, corruption of our political process is a mortal enemy of this country. The Israeli Lobby has TOTALLY corrupted the US Congress with their donor base, and it is time to end this corruption and all others like it by taking money completely out of the political process for good.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/10/2009 @ 7:24pm
'I guess we know, now, that there's no room for dissenters in the intelligence community, now, either.'
AIPAC's way or the highway. Monkey on the back calling the shots. We are the frickin laughing stock of the world in addition to being its biggest pariah next to Israel. Great job BO. Feinstein, Schumer and Lieberman leading the Democratic "change you can believe in" congressional vanguard. Really the last straw of the appearance of an even handed foreign policy posture down the toilet.
The politicization of national intelligence. Sounds alot like Bush status quo. Heil AIPAC.
Posted by OneVote at 03/10/2009 @ 7:24pm
And if I were Obama, I would CONTINUE to appoint people who he believes share his view that US intelligence should not be politicized, and force these lobbyists of foreign governments out in the open where they are most uncomfortable.
There is simply no way these lobbyists will win with the American people given the intelligence lapses in Iraq and the public's disdain for being tricked into war!
Posted by Metteyya at 03/10/2009 @ 7:31pm
Posted by Metteyya at 03/10/2009 @ 7:24pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Next stop Iran Mett.
Posted by OneVote at 03/10/2009 @ 7:37pm
Let's face it; American foreign policy in the Middle East is dictated to us by Israel. An agent of a foreign government on trial here for espionage (Rosen) can stop a presidential appointment of a high-level intelligence official that DOESNT EVEN REQUIRE SENATE CONFIRMATION.
Our foreign policy is dictated by a foreign power.
Posted by syfriendly at 03/10/2009 @ 7:41pm
Mr. Freeman's extensive record of questionable public statements, including those that seemed to defend the Tiananmen Square massacre and raise questions about the American character following the 9-11 attacks, should have been more than enough to give the administration pause."
Posted by comancheamerican at 03/10/2009 @ 6:38pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Funny that Bill Clinton's foreign exposure didn't hurt Ms. Clinton's appointment. Please....give us some credit Rio. Your strawmen are burning.
Posted by OneVote at 03/10/2009 @ 7:43pm
It's ok, the Palestinians aren't really people anyway (let Israel cleanse the land of them as is their goal) and the US doesn't have any interests in the Middle East that conflict with Israeli interests, anyway. Who needs to care.
Posted by syfriendly at 03/10/2009 @ 7:48pm
It seems there is good news this week. It brought an instant smile to my face.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/10/2009 @ 7:49pm
The biggest contributions -- more than $25 million each -- came from two donors: the Children's Investment Fund Foundation, a London-based philanthropy organization founded by hedge fund manager Chris Hohn and his wife, Jamie Cooper-Hohn, and UNITAID, an international drug-purchase organization formed by Brazil, France, Chile, Norway and Britain.
The list highlights ties between the Clintons and Indian interests, including Amar Singh, an Indian politician who met with Hillary Rodham Clinton in September to discuss an Indian-U.S. civil nuclear agreement. He gave $1 million to $5 million. The Confederation of Indian Industry gave $500,000 to $1 million.
The governments of Kuwait, Qatar and Oman each gave $1 million to $5million.
Federal law does not require presidents to disclose donors to their presidential libraries and sets no limits on their amounts. By contrast, individuals can give no more than $2,300 to a presidential candidate per election.
Clinton had refused to reveal contributors, contending that his donors had been promised confidentiality.
His White House predecessor, former president George H.W. Bush, has disclosed the gifts to his library.
The foundation listed donors in broad categories with the highest being "$1 million and above." Donors who gave more than $1 million include members of the Saudi royal family and the governments of Japan, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates.
Details on contributions to the current President Bush's library have not been released.
Bill Allison, a senior fellow with the Sunlight Foundation watchdog group, said all the donations should be public. "There are a lot of people here who have done more than $25 million worth of favors for Bill Clinton," Allison said. "If we are concerned about $2,300 campaign.
Posted by OneVote at 03/10/2009 @ 7:55pm
cite to above:
'Bill Clinton discloses foundation donors'
By Fredreka Schouten, USA TODAY 12/18/08
Posted by OneVote at 03/10/2009 @ 7:56pm
" ... Joining in on the trashing of Freeman were the (let's face it) hard-line Jews of the Democratic Congress, including Senator Charles Schumer of New York, Rep. Steve Israel (yes, he is actually named "Israel") of New York, and of course, that former Democrat, Joe Lieberman -- all of whom crowded into the amen corner with AIPAC ..."
Yes, let's face this. The only way to address this issue one would think is to not vote for any Jewish politicians again. And that's said; where would Henry Waxman or Russ Feingold be without our votes? And where would we be without them? Unfortunately, the Feingolds and Waxmans are the minority. Instead, we have officials named "Israel" or out-and-out hardline Zionists like Lieberman conspiring to keep national foreign policy in the Middle East under the control of Israel. It could be that the only answer is to not vote for Jewish politicians who do not take a critical stand on Israel ever again.
Posted by syfriendly at 03/10/2009 @ 8:04pm
I correct myself; on reflection, I recall that both Waxman and Feingold (who otherwise amongst the knights-in-shining-armor in the government) are both serious Israel boosters. It really just may be that, if one wants to see a hope of real change from the terrible status quo created by Israel, its Lobby, and rich American Jews, one simply has to stop voting for Jewish politicians.
Posted by syfriendly at 03/10/2009 @ 8:10pm
http://www.counterpunch.org/spinney03102009.html
There, for those interested, is a great article on the fraud referred to as "peace process".
Posted by syfriendly at 03/10/2009 @ 8:15pm
"If I am an anti-Semite, THEN WE ALL NEED TO BE ANTI-SEMITES!"
Spoken like a true anti-Semite.
Posted by mickyboy212 at 03/10/2009 @ 8:35pm
"....given the intelligence lapses that led to our invading Iraq, why would anyone in their right mind want more of the same AIPACers in key positions in our intelligence community?"
i don't think anyone here can answer that (with a straight face) except myself......
as soon as this article was penned, the legions of non-thinkers descended upon it like vultures. of course, any critic of israel *must* be either a) insane, b) anti-semitic, or c) both.
Posted by darladoon at 03/10/2009 @ 9:28pm
Posted by mickyboy212 at 03/10/2009 @ 8:35pm
The strange thing about this phony anti-Semite personal attack to avoid dealing with the message of improper and immoral influence of the Israeli Lobby over our intelligence gathering, is that those who are in charge in Israel are not even Semites, they are European Ashkenazis. And Arabs are ALSO Semites.
So are you saying I am anti-Arab as well?
This just goes to show you how ignorant and empty the lobby really is, and how vulnerable they are if they are forced out of the shadows to defend their desire to control US intelligence.
It is very straightforward to defeat this and ANY lobby that wants to control our government with their donor base. You tell Congress you have "one" shot to get it right so you never have to face reprisals from these lobbies ever again, which means (1) publicly funding all federal elections AND (2) placing "reasonable" restrictions on the free speech of so-called "independent" groups from running ads for or against a candidate withing 90 days of any election.
The majority in Congress will vote in favor, and the Supreme Court will uphold this limited restriction on the free speech of these groups.
With the stroke of the pen, we could end ALL undue influence in Washington, including the Israeli Lobby.
Like all bullies, if you stand up to them and force them to defend in front of everyone else, they fall on their faces once they realize they have far less power than they originally thought.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/10/2009 @ 9:32pm
"I believe that the inability of the American public to discuss, or the government to consider, any option for US policies in the Middle East opposed by the ruling faction in Israeli politics has allowed that faction to adopt and sustain policies that ultimately threaten the existence of the state of Israel. It is not permitted for anyone in the United States to say so. This is not just a tragedy for Israelis and their neighbors in the Middle East; it is doing widening damage to the national security of the United States."
In all probability, this statement is correct, but above all, it is very well articulated. Chas Freeman has responded more eloquently to his rejection than most appointees respond when they are accepted!
I also liked Freeman's phrase "mental colonoscopy of a polygraph." The man has a way with words! I hope we haven't heard the last of him. Something tells me we haven't.
Perhaps what we need in Israel and Palestine is some embarrassing, but hopefully not too deadly calamity – something like the economic crisis, maybe – something that makes it obvious not only to smart people like Freeman, but even to the densest dullards in our foreign-policy establishment (including plenty of gentiles, too), that the Near East needs a better plan than perpetually repeated violent retribution. We all need to stop waving bloody shirts and take some time out for grieving and healing. We need to think about nonviolence, about justice and law, and about the decades-old mismatch between religiously cloaked intentions and their blood-soaked consequences in this miserable region.
We need to do some new thinking. But I'm afraid we have resolved to try every possible stupid thing first before we proceed toward anything smart.
Posted by JakobFabian at 03/10/2009 @ 9:57pm
<i>Posted by syfriendly at 03/10/2009 @ 8:10pm </i>
Good thing the ban on religious test for public office doesn't apply to individuals' private rationales for voting, no? They're free to be as bigoted as they want...
<i>Posted by Metteyya at 03/10/2009 @ 7:24pm </i>
This argument is simply awful. First off, your entire argument begs the question as to what policy moves are actually in US interests. Second, it basically precludes all meaningful advocacy because everyone who advocates for something within government is necessarily biased towards that position. We like it that way. Third, your entire treason argument relies on corruption of the political process as an "enemy" of the United States. What does this even mean? When the treason statute talks about "enemies," it means real entities, not abstractions. Helping perpetuate poverty, for instance, is probably bad, but no one could rationally argue that it's treason because to define it as an enemy in the strict sense doesn't make any sense.
I'm going to ask all of you yet again...define for me what constitutes the Israel Lobby. I don't need exact lists or anything like that; just give me some idea as to what you're referring to rather than pointing at phantoms. Is everyone whose viewpoints tend to agree with Israel's policy positions part of this Lobby?
Posted by Thrawn at 03/10/2009 @ 10:00pm
Now the pundits discover America! Well, Obama does have what it takes - rhetoric.
---------
A Turning Tide? Obama still has the approval of the people, but the establishment is beginning to mumble that the president may not have what it takes.
Howard Fineman Mar 10, 2009 Surfer that he is, President Obama should know a riptide when he's in one. The center usually is the safest, most productive place in politics, but perhaps not now, not in a once-in-a-century economic crisis.
Swimming in the middle, he's denounced as a socialist by conservatives, criticized as a polite accommodationist by government-is-the-answer liberals, and increasingly, dismissed as being in over his head by technocrats.
Posted by HelenDAO at 03/10/2009 @ 10:07pm
"It is very straightforward to defeat this and ANY lobby that wants to control our government with their donor base. You tell Congress you have 'one' shot to get it right so you never have to face reprisals from these lobbies ever again, which means (1) publicly funding all federal elections AND (2) placing 'reasonable' restrictions on the free speech of so-called 'independent' groups from running ads for or against a candidate within 90 days of any election."
I like these ideas, "Metteyya." I have only some minor points to make. You can ignore them if you've read them before.
(1) If we really want Congress to have only one shot to get things right, we should consider perhaps making it unicameral. I believe this would offer many advantages.
(2) On the other hand, I think it is extremely difficult to place "reasonable restrictions" on any kind of "speech." Let's be clear. Campaign financing is NOT speech. Ads, however, ARE speech, and political speech at that. I'd rather not restrict them in any way.
But here's what I WOULD do. I'd require every ad, political or otherwise, to display, like the Surgeon General's warning on cigarettes, the number of people who actually endorse it. So a grassroots organization could display its millions, but an astroturf organization would have to admit that it's underwritten by only a few corporate fat-cats.
This would be the first step toward making the media reflect the views of the majority of people, rather than the majority of dollars.
Posted by JakobFabian at 03/10/2009 @ 10:53pm
I'm going to ask all of you yet again...define for me what constitutes the Israel Lobby. I don't need exact lists or anything like that; just give me some idea as to what you're referring to rather than pointing at phantoms. Is everyone whose viewpoints tend to agree with Israel's policy positions part of this Lobby?
Posted by Thrawn at 03/10/2009 @ 10:00pm
if someone agrees with israel's taking people's houses and land and then subjugating them to walls and checkpoints and humiliation,
they are just cruel.
israel is lucky to exist; not everybody who gets jacked around on this planet gets a brand new country carved out of other people's orchards.
and so,
the israelis need to calm down and give thanks to god for what they've got and stop the theft.
it couldn't be more obvious.
all this other dilly-dallying about lobbies is just pathetic.
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/10/2009 @ 11:05pm
The Israeli-Firsters are rejoicing the demise of Chas Freeman; a man of honor who spoke truth to power. The Zionist servants in Congress have proven again that America's interest always comes second to that of Israel.
Israeli gang members like Chuck Schumer, Joe Lieberman and Marty Peretz should be given a lie detector test to ascertain their loyalty to America. Steve Rosen should be arrested and placed in the same cell with the Israeli Spy Jonathan Pollard. Rosen is up to his ears with the FBI after he was caught in the act spying on America for Israel. AIPAC must be plotting with friends in Congress to appoint an Israeli-Firster at the NIC. The Israelis are in desperate need to have a fabricator at the NIC. AIPAC is looking for someone with unqualified loyalty to the Israeli Agenda; and who is willing to lie to lead America into fighting the next war for Israel. The drums of war on Iran are on the rise in Israel; two known fascists are now leading the Israeli government. they are determined to drag the US to attack Iran. A Zionist at the NIC will give a great boost to this Israeli plot.
Posted by CripThink at 03/10/2009 @ 11:07pm
This would be the first step toward making the media reflect the views of the majority of people, rather than the majority of dollars.
Posted by JakobFabian at 03/10/2009 @ 10:53pm
Nutty to require ads to display how many `endorses' it! Would require an `independent' poll for most issues while heavily favoring the internet community, no?
The media is doing fine w/out any more regulation nor your insinuated intervention! It's actually being reformed as we chat, for NOT reflecting "the views of the majority of people", hence losing subscribers, NOR "the majority of dollars", hence losing advertisers.
Posted by Happy at 03/10/2009 @ 11:08pm
The number of people who endorse an ad would be required by a gathering of verifiable signatures, "Happy," both on and off the Internet. It is still possible to write signatures on paper, you know!
People would evaluate advertisements better if they had a better idea how many people they actually represented. Only a plutocrat could feel threatened by this modest innovation.
And there is no force in Nature that can possibly cause a "loss of advertisers" in ANY medium. Not even public radio and public television can keep them out completely, even though they impose quite a lot of restrictions on ads, and I dearly wish they would be more strict.
My concern is rather the opposite of yours – namely, that all news, even in so-called public media, will someday soon become nothing but a paid advertisement, and that the truth will someday soon be defined as that which attracts the fattest investments.
Posted by JakobFabian at 03/10/2009 @ 11:37pm
I have soooooooo had it with Israeli hawks running United State's Middle Eastern foreign policy.
Posted by politicky at 03/10/2009 @ 11:41pm
You guys are right. The Jews should not be allowed to influence policy. I mean, don't be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus. Don't think you can fight racial tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that racial tuberculosis. This Jewish contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Jew, has been banished from our midst.
Posted by gangpapist at 03/10/2009 @ 11:54pm
Like I said before; Blame Obamanation his appointee had all the fine charactoristics of Mao, Marx, Lenin, and maybe even a little Adolf all rolled into one! Israel is a very convenient scapegoat for all the anti-semetics and other haters of the world.
Posted by gangpapist at 03/10/2009 @ 11:54pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I think all these leftist posters follow MEIN KAMPH religiously as did its author! No Holy Bible nonsense for them!
Posted by comancheamerican at 03/11/2009 @ 12:10am
larry porn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo48YpNOesQ&feature=related&fmt=18
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/11/2009 @ 12:11am
Anyone who attacks the policies of Israel is not an anti-Semite. And anyone who did not attack the genocide in Gaza in anti-humanity. Including the Jews in America. Israel in its paranoia has become fascist, creating a system of apartheid, which we would not accept, but for the power of AIPAC and the Jewish lobby. It has strayed very far from the lofty, ethical moral high ground it started with. I always remember President Obama at the Wailing Wall, where an Israeli kept shouting, "Obama, Israel is not for sale." And how they took his prayer and published it in their newspaper. Israel must accept a two-state solution, and we must help the Gazans re-build Gaza. We need to take a hard line with Israel because they have gone too far and damaged us as well as themselves. I am disappointed about this failed appointment, but I have faith that our policies are changing. It will take time.
Posted by jonnirae at 03/11/2009 @ 12:17am
For those who believe that America will ever be free from the scourge of the Israeli Lobby better read these very telling quotes:
"I've never seen a President -- I don't care who he is -- stand up to them [the Israelis]. It just boggles the mind. They always get what they want. The Israelis know what is going on all the time. I got to the point where I wasn't writing anything down. If the American people understood what a grip those people have got on our government, they would rise up in arms. Our citizens certainly don't have any idea what goes on." --Admiral Thomas Moorer, former chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff (quoted in: They Dare to Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel's Lobby by Paul Findley, former Illinois congressman)
"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." --Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (speaking to Shimon Peres, as reported on Israel Radio [in Hebrew, Kol Yisrael], 3 October 2001)
Posted by CripThink at 03/11/2009 @ 12:17am
Posted by JakobFabian at 03/10/2009 @ 10:53pm
Constitutional amendments to the structure of our government require 3/4th of all state legislatures - a VERY tall order. It is much more likely to succeed by staying within the structure and simply publicly funding the federal elections.
Just like you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater, the Supreme Court has consistently held that free speech rights are NOT absolute, and reasonable restrictions are allowed to further some legitimate government purpose like "integrity of our political process".
The fact that these groups can run ads the other 9 months out of the year would make the restriction during the last 90 days reasonable. It is just like telling the fire yeller that he can go yell at the top of his lungs if he is not in a crowded place, but restricting his free speech in enclosed public spaces to protect the public from harm.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/11/2009 @ 12:29am
"spoken like a true anti-semite" - why do you always insist everyone HAS to be pro-semite? it is you that confuses anti-ethnic cleansing, anti-justice, anti-lawlessness, anti-torture, anti-nazi-like-atrocities etc as anti-semetic.
anyone who read bamford's "shadow factory" or saw pbs's "spy factory" learned much of datamining and filtering flows via this foreign outfit in israel. how ironic that outspoken freeman, who just might want to return american policy and control back to our soil, is beheaded by the israeli lobby.
Posted by replynation at 03/11/2009 @ 02:30am
Would that those who brought us to this place be silenced and better minds be heard. But, "the best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity." (Yeats) he blood feud continues!
Posted by Lichthardt at 03/11/2009 @ 03:39am
The fat lady has finally sung.
Off came the mask, up heaved the bosom, down plunged the dagger onto a marshy lung. The hilt twanged denial as Chas sang and the catchup ran down, down the proscenium and into the bald timpanist's tympanum. Thus has this heel on whitewalls stretched his operatic finis to the LaRouchian mini.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/11/2009 @ 05:53am
I have never once made a post expressing any opinions about Israel, Zionism or Aipac, yet by decrying the blatant anti-Semitism, excuse me Jew hatred, of certain posters I learn that I am a hawk, a lobbyist, a this and a that.
Some people are just malicious misguided rabble rousers.
Posted by mickyboy212 at 03/11/2009 @ 05:59am
"The strange thing about this phony anti-Semite personal attack to avoid dealing with the message of improper and immoral influence of the Israeli Lobby over our intelligence gathering, is that those who are in charge in Israel are not even Semites, they are European Ashkenazis. And Arabs are ALSO Semites. "
That's an incredibly ignorant statement. First of all, the European Ashkenazis are diaspora Jews, and consequently Semites. Further, the term anti-semitism has its origins in 19th century European Judeophobia, it has nothing to do with Arabs.
"The fact that these groups can run ads the other 9 months out of the year would make the restriction during the last 90 days reasonable. It is just like telling the fire yeller that he can go yell at the top of his lungs if he is not in a crowded place, but restricting his free speech in enclosed public spaces to protect the public from harm."
That's an unsupported conclusion. There is no logical connection between being able to run issues ads the rest of the time and being barred from doing so within 90 days of an election. Further, running issue ads isn't even remotely analogous to yelling "Fire!".
Posted by brunowe at 03/11/2009 @ 07:23am
Thrawn at 03/10/2009 @ 10:00pm asked:
>> Is everyone whose viewpoints tend to agree with Israel's policy positions part of this Lobby?<<
You bet they are. They are all part of Lobby. Everyone who supports Israel is part of that lobby, and they are all vile and wicked.
And you are dumb, Thrawn, not just naive, but a real meathead.
Listen to -
gangpapist at 03/10/2009 @ 11:54pm
>> The Jews should not be allowed to influence policy. I mean, don't be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus. Don't think you can fight racial tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that racial tuberculosis. This Jewish contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Jew, has been banished from our midst. <<
Who here among the anti-Zionists who hate Israel but have nothing against Jews, speaks up when a Nazi like gangpapist crawls out of his hole.
Nobody, because they all agree with that reptile, they are just more circumspect.
CripThink at 12:17am wrote, quoting Sharon:
>> "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." as reported on Israel Radio [in Hebrew, Kol Yisrael], 3 Oct 2001 <<
Nothing like that was ever said, or reported by Radio Israel. It is a complete fiction, like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion slander. Which does not deny it endless repetition across the Internet.
But when these creatures are called bigots and anti-Semites, the righteous opponents of Israel grow indignant.
You phonies, you scoundrels.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/11/2009 @ 08:33am
<i>Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/11/2009 @ 08:33am </i>
Wait, what just happened? Neither gangpapist nor myself actually agrees with what posters such as syfriendly and CripThink are saying. Here's what was going on:
1) Gangpapist, unless I'm completely missing the boat, was not expressing what he believes there. He was taking what others said to what he believes is its logical conclusion. In other threads, he's consistently called people out for what he believed crossed the line between opposition to Israeli policy and straight antisemitism.
2) I wasn't expressing uncertainty, I was calling them out to actually define this "Israel Lobby" that they continue railing against. For those who may be uncertain, it's important to make critics actually define their terms rather than letting them get away with striking at shadows.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/11/2009 @ 08:47am
If you think there is no "Israel Lobby" please explain how Freeman was not allowed to be appointed. He appears to be more than qualified, he worked with republicans in the past, including Nixon.
----
"Who here among the anti-Zionists who hate Israel but have nothing against Jews, speaks up when a Nazi like gangpapist crawls out of his hole.
Nobody, because they all agree with that reptile, they are just more circumspect. "-HUGO
Quite a statement there HUGGY. Doesn't leave much room for debate, does it? I Find his comments about Jews to be disgusting. What does that do to your preconceived notions?
What if I think a foreign govt should not influence presidential appointments? I seem to remember something about Bill Clinton and China. But then again, that was back when some missing travel papers were a constitutional crisis, not the current situation where actual violations of the constitution are to be ignored.
It is really disgusting how much crap appointees have to go through, no wonder we don't have lot's of quality people in govt, if they are human someone will rise up and call them the next Satan. The fact that a foreign govt lobby has more influence than the President speaks volumes. I wonder what the opinion of the cons would be if the Venezuelan lobby objected to one of Obamas appointments. Would they leap to the defense of Venezuela? Or would they whine and moan about foreign interference?
Posted by crabwalk at 03/11/2009 @ 09:27am
Thrawn at 08:47am wrote -
>>Gangpapist, unless I'm completely missing the boat, was not expressing what he believes there. He was taking what others said to what he believes is its logical conclusion. <<
I have not read gangpapist before. I would like to see a post that unmistakably expresses his point of view. If you are right, I apologize. But even then, he should have given some indication that he was venting, and that those were not his sentiments.
In any case, this place teems with posters whose anti-Jewish racism is stark and blood red. They pretend to merely have a political axe to grind, but in fact almost all are rabid bigots when they are not actually Arabs.
When I first started peeking into forums, around ten years ago, there were plenty of Arab handles on the various talk boards. Now those names are largely gone replaced by non-ethnic nicks.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/11/2009 @ 09:29am
So, while we are at war, ANTI smiles when an intelligence appointment get's hogtied by a foreign govt.
mmmm,, soak in that patriotism.
Maybe instead of moving south, you should look east?
Remember The Liberty!!
Posted by crabwalk at 03/11/2009 @ 09:35am
Posted by comancheamerican at 03/11/2009 @ 12:10am | ignore this person | warn this person
I will give you today for response, but I see no reason to read your drivel anymore. You are not very bright, you are a sheep. If you have had an original thought in the last year I missed it.
( ignore this person)
Posted by crabwalk at 03/11/2009 @ 09:39am
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/11/2009 @ 09:29am
HUGO, am I an anti-Semite Jew hater?
Posted by crabwalk at 03/11/2009 @ 09:40am
Israel should have the right to lobby U.S. elected representatives on policies that affect Israel.
Similarly, American citizens should have the right to vote in Israeli elections. Since every Israeli citizen receives more U.S. tax dollars than the average American citizen, and the Israeli electorate has more impact on U.S. foreign policy than the American electorate, the influence should work both ways.
It is unjust that a majority of Americans are excluded from participation in Israeli use of our national resources and political process by virtue of our religion and ethnicity.
Posted by nelsonalexander at 03/11/2009 @ 09:48am
'Mr. Freeman has a longstanding record of defending China's authoritarian regime. In his view, for example, China's nationwide democracy movement in spring of 1989, which protested government corruption and embraced international norms of human rights, was only the "propaganda" of "dissidents." That movement ended in the use of tanks and machine guns to massacre hundreds unarmed protesters in Beijing on June 4, 1989," but Mr. Freeman wrote, as recently as three years ago, that "the Politburo's response to the mob scene at 'Tiananmen' stands as a monument to overly cautious behavior on the part of the leadership" ' -- Letter from 87 people, including Dan Wang, Gang Liu and others jailed after the Tienanmen Square protests, to President Barack Obama -- 5 March 2009
Posted by HonestLiberal at 03/11/2009 @ 09:49am
Posted by nelsonalexander at 03/11/2009 @ 09:48am
Not sure about the amount received/person but...
: )
Posted by crabwalk at 03/11/2009 @ 09:52am
HUGO, this is the guy that married my wife and I
http://www.templebethemeth.org/tbe/leadership
Posted by crabwalk at 03/11/2009 @ 10:01am
HUGO, this is the guy that married my wife and I
Posted by crabwalk at 03/11/2009 @ 10:01am
ooh,
polygamy!
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/11/2009 @ 10:13am
Who here among the anti-Zionists who hate Israel but have nothing against Jews, speaks up when a Nazi like gangpapist crawls out of his hole.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/11/2009 @ 08:33am
Gangpapist, unless I'm completely missing the boat, was not expressing what he believes there. He was taking what others said to what he believes is its logical conclusion.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/11/2009 @ 08:47am
It is funny and amusing to watch the Zionists in a state of disarray and confusion. They have been thrown off track by a pretentious drunken sailor named Gangpapist. Ganpapist simply had too many beers when he initiated his late night hallucination. The Zionist Hugo_Pirovano should settle his own score with Gangpapist; rather than asking for my help. I normally ignore those with impaired judgment because of excessive drinking. You will hear from Gangpapist in the afternoon hours, since he is still under the influence now.
One more telling quote by the legendry Senator William Fulbright about the powerful Israeli Lobb:
"The Israelis control the policy in the congress and the senate." --Senator James William Fulbright, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (speaking on the CBS News program Face the Nation, 7 October 1973)
Posted by CripThink at 03/11/2009 @ 10:37am
anti-semitic echoes
The "amen corner." Thus the Nation joins in Pat Buchannon's disgusting Jew-baiting under the cloak of anti-Zionism. Dreyfuss should be ashamed of himself. His form of defense of Freeman demonstrates why fFeeman was unacceptable. The Nation should be ashamed of sanctioning such prejudicial screed.
Posted by gren at 03/11/2009 @ 10:45am
The "amen corner." Thus the Nation joins in Pat Buchannon's disgusting Jew-baiting under the cloak of anti-Zionism. Dreyfuss should be ashamed of himself. Posted by gren at 03/11/2009 @ 10:45am
gren,
Apparently blaming the Nation and Robert Dreyfuss is much easier than looking in the mirror. Maybe you can explain how Robert Dreyfuss is an Anti-Semite.
Posted by CripThink at 03/11/2009 @ 10:58am
Anytime one of these threads get going, see much on the "solutions" angle...
I mean aside from the syfriend "Embargo Israel" or lvlib/antisoc "Send the Pallies back to Jordan" ones?
Posted by Mask at 03/11/2009 @ 11:05am
This nation needs to wake up to the war being waged by Israel on Americans. They take our tax dollars, and use it to corrupt our politicians and political process.. they are far more dangerous than all of AL QUIDA put together.
The press is either complicit or silenced by them for the most part, for the exception of the Nation and such publication, we the people would not even know about the depth of depravity of AIPAC and its supporters.
As to the Jewish Americans that support AIPAC, they should be questioned as to their dual loyalties are complicit to the Israeli apartheid regime.. they are not Americans. It is sad that our country opened its doors to these people, to only become some of the worst influence in our country history since the colonist fought off the Loyalists in the American Revolution against King George. I say they should be shipped out to Israel once and for all, as we did with the Loyalists to London.
Traitors to the core.
Posted by oc2001 at 03/11/2009 @ 11:30am
Posted by brunowe at 03/11/2009 @ 07:23am
No one is talking about restricting ISSUE ads - only ads for or against a particular candidate within 90 days of an election. This is a NECESSARY compliment to publicly funded federal elections, as what would be the point of such elections if candidates still had to listen to these groups out of fear of being targeted in the last 90 days?
As for the other 9 months, the public will tire of seeing attack ads that are too far out from an election, and will prefer to focus in the last 90 days like they do now. And even if a group is successful at beating down the favorable rating of a candidate during those 9 months, the candidate has an "unfettered" opportunity in the last 3 months to get his constituents to properly focus on his or her record and what they want to do if re-elected.
You have to call the bluff of lobbying groups like AIPAC or they will continue to distort US policy in favor of their narrow interests over the interests of the American people.
It is in the interest of America and the world (and Israel's long term interest) to end the conflict in Palestine. If right-wing Jews don't see it this way that is fine, but they have NO right to control US policy to keep the conflict going.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/11/2009 @ 11:45am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo48YpNOesQ&feature=related&fmt=18
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/11/2009 @ 12:11am |
Thanks Frosty. That was a cool video. Isn't science wonderful?
Posted by antisocialist at 03/11/2009 @ 11:54am
It is also in America's best interest and the world for us to not invade another country that does not pose a "real" threat to us or others.
Honest intelligence gathering is the KEY to avoiding more unnecessary wars, and it is therefore ENTIRELY inappropriate for a lobbying group of a foreign country to have ANY say over who the president appoints in the US intelligence community.
This is a SERIOUS national security issue, and we need to have this debate IN PUBLIC as to the appropriateness of lobby of a foreign country determining who the US appoints in "its" intelligence gathering community to protect its "national" interests.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/11/2009 @ 12:03pm
Thanks Frosty. That was a cool video. Isn't science wonderful?----Posted by antisocialist at 03/11/2009 @ 11:54am
Speaking of science, Larry (off-topic...since this thread is going to be predictable)....
never got your take on a question on the other thread...
If Mankind just popped in 10,000 BCE....what were the Neanderthals? Apes?
Posted by Mask at 03/11/2009 @ 12:09pm
oc2001 at 11:30am said:
>> It is sad that our country opened its doors to these people <<
Here we have another principled opponent of Israel. Of course the AIPACists and Zionists immediately seek to beslime such patriots as anti-Semities and fascists.
What attracts this scum to The Nation?
They find it warm and cozy cuddling up with such as Richard Dreyfuss, formerly an editor for a Lyndon LaRouche screed.
These precincts are at bottom left fascist. Not all of The Nation's readers or contributors are of that persuasion. There are plenty of sincere and innocent naifs among them, still, ultimately, the direction, the inclinations of this journal is left fascist. It grieved at the demise of the Soviet Union and of Mao's China. It had good words for Pol Pot. It is totally silent on Darfur. But it tore out its hair at the idea of ejecting murderous Saddam and the fascist Baath. It wanted the US to lose in Iraq, for the hope of a democratic Baghdad to fail, and Islamist fanatics to win. It sympathizes and rationalizes Hamas and Hezbollah, organizations pledged to the extermination of a nation of Jews. And its attracts stark bigots in the way poop attracts flies.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/11/2009 @ 12:12pm
I hate to say it so early in a new administration, but it appears that the voters are not going to get the change they voted for any time soon.
Instead of taking advantage of the mandate given to them, the administration acts as if it only won a plurality at the polls. If the WH won't use its political capital now, when will it?
Posted by RPK at 03/11/2009 @ 12:12pm
Richard Dreyfuss: "Rep. Steve Israel (yes, he is actually named 'Israel')"
Yes, Israel is an ancient and honored name, either first or last. Not only Jews are called Israel. There is a Hawaiian singer named Israel, among many others.
Richard Dreyfuss is telling us what to name our children. Think of the arrogance and irrational hatred underneath such an idiotic comment. Richard Dreyfuss would like to erase the word "Israel" from human language. Next he'll tell us that "Jew" is a dirty word.
Disgusting!
Posted by Kurtlane at 03/11/2009 @ 12:13pm
nelsonalexander 09:48am:
You gibber rubbish!
During WWI, from 1914 to 1917 Americans with Anglo roots urged Congress to help the Allies, while Americans of German extraction lobbied on behalf of the Central Powers. Again in 1939 London and many people who identified with UK lobbied Washington for help. We ended up making and paying for much if not most of their weapons, food and fuel. Nor do Irish Americans, Cuban Americans, Taiwanese Americans, etc., hesitate today to press Congress on behalf of ethnic causes. Why can't Jews who see their coreligionists threatened with extinction?
Incidentally, the Palestinians have received more US aid per capita than the Israelis. The US has since '48 been the largest donor to UN organisations feeding, housing and educating Palestinian refugees. This year we are giving $900 million to Gaza. That works out to $600 for every Palestinian in the strip, nevermind the more indirect US contributions to the UN, and what the Europeans and Arabs contribute. Israel receives $3 billion for 7 million Israelis. That amounts to $428 per individual.
What does the US get in return? The Palestinians, in gratitude have hijacked and murdered Americans, bombed the Marine barracks, etc. They hate us and danced on the rooftops on 9/11.
Thoughout the Cold War the oil fields were safe, sans a single GI. Why? The US had the IDF containing Egypt, Syria and Iraq. Nasser said, the road to Riyadh goes through Tel Aviv. Had he gotten to Tel Aviv the Gulf's oil fields would have gone to his Soviet patrons. Israel's military remains our one reliable ally over their, whatever happens. We have bled for Britain, France, Italy, Holland, SKorea, VN, Bosnia, Kosovo, etc. No US serviceman has ever fought or died for Israel.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/11/2009 @ 12:22pm
Check out former senior CIA officer Ray McGovern on the damage that Obama's acquiesence to rightwing Israeli pressure is causing US interests abroad:
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/031109a.html
Posted by sloper at 03/11/2009 @ 12:23pm
If Mankind just popped in 10,000 BCE....what were the Neanderthals? Apes?
Posted by Mask at 03/11/2009 @ 12:09pm
they were most likely hominids, but not apes.
It is fairly clear that G-d created for whatever purposes, several classes of hominids that died out mostly before the appearance of man. It has become clear thanks to DNA that even where there was overlap, there was no interbreeding.
Why they existed is a mystery and I have no real interest in knowing why, because it has nothing to do with the history of mankind and it's relationship with G-d.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/11/2009 @ 12:24pm
So "AntiSocialist" claims to know of the mechanics of "God's" creations? It must be nice to be omniscient! Too bad that the fossil record says otherwise, but what are facts when God's your bud.
Posted by RPK at 03/11/2009 @ 12:30pm
So "AntiSocialist" claims to know of the mechanics of "God's" creations? It must be nice to be omniscient! Too bad that the fossil record says otherwise, but what are facts when God's your bud.
Posted by RPK at 03/11/2009 @ 12:30pm
You must be the one who doesn't know the facts. DNA studies in the past 10 years have proven conclusively that Neanderthal has no relationship to Humans. You may feel free to google and learn something.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/11/2009 @ 12:32pm
polygamy!
Posted by frosty zoom at 03/11/2009 @ 10:13am
What does the folding of paper into cranes have to do with A Rabbi, a Minister and an Atheist walking into a bar?
Posted by crabwalk at 03/11/2009 @ 12:45pm
It (The Nation) is totally silent on Darfur. -Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/11/2009 @ 12:12pm
Death in Darfur
Jen Marlowe | posted May 9, 2008 (web exclusive)
Darfur's Divided Rebellion
Shane Bauer | posted October 25, 2007 (web exclusive)
Gaza and Darfur
Alexander Cockburn | December 18, 2006 issue
Genocide in Darfur
Act Now!
Still Dying in Darfur
Aug 24, 2005
Jul 19, 2004 .
Darfur: Actions Against Atrocities
Hold China Accountable on Darfur
Ruth Messinger & Jerry Fowler | posted July 14, 2008 (web exclusive)
Downplaying Darfur
Stamps for Peace/H.O.P.E. for Darfur
Act Now!
Posted by crabwalk at 03/11/2009 @ 12:54pm
"It is fairly clear that G-d created for whatever purposes, several classes of hominids that died out mostly before the appearance of man."ANTIAmerican
Oh boy.
You will be pleased that you have left me speechless.
Posted by crabwalk at 03/11/2009 @ 12:56pm
It is fairly clear that G-d created for whatever purposes, several classes of hominids that died out mostly before the appearance of man.----Posted by antisocialist at 03/11/2009 @ 12:24pm
So Neanderthals pre-dated a Cro-Magnon "Adam & Eve"?
Posted by Mask at 03/11/2009 @ 1:06pm
'...Steve Israel (yes, he is actually named "Israel")...' -- Robert Dreyfuss
Clinton Backer Bob Kerrey on Smearing Obama posted by Ari Melber on 12/18/2007 @ 06:07am
'...Yet Kerrey's comments are distinct because he is the highest level Clinton supporter to publicly push the Muslim smears against Obama, and he is also ratcheting up the rhetoric. In a series of high profile interviews, Kerrey has gone out of his way to cover every aspect of the smears – saying "Muslim," "madrassa," "Hussein"...' -- http://www .thenation.com/ blogs/state_of_change/26 1078
Posted by HonestLiberal at 03/11/2009 @ 1:08pm
Interesting that the cons oppose a man appointed by George H W Bush and former employee of Richard Nixon.
This guy sounds like someone that REALLY knows the world, someone that would be a good addition to a well rounded administration that is not afraid to listen to multiple viewpoints. We had a one sided admin for 8 years, time for a change of pace.
WIKI biography-
"Freeman was born in Rhode Island, and lived and was educated in the Bahamas where his father was in business, returning to the United States at age 13. After studying at Yale University under a scholarship, he studied at the National Autonomous University of Mexico and received a J.D. from Harvard Law School.[3]
He joined the United States Foreign Service in 1965, working first in India and Taiwan before being assigned to the State Department's China desk. There he was assigned as the principal interpreter during United States President Richard Nixon's 1972 first visit to the People's Republic of China. He later became the State Department Deputy Director for Republic of China (Taiwan) affairs.[3]
After various positions within the State Department he was given overseas assignments as deputy chief of mission in Beijing, China and then Bangkok, Thailand, before being selected as principal deputy assistant secretary of state for African affairs in 1986. During these assignments he attained a working knowledge of several languages. He became United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia in November 1989, serving during Operation Desert Storm, until 1992.[3]
From 1992 to 1993 he was a Distinguished Fellow at the Institute for National Strategic Studies. From 1993 to 1994 he was Assistant Secretary of Defense, International Security Affairs. From 1994 to 1995 he was Distinguished Fellow, United States Institu
Posted by crabwalk at 03/11/2009 @ 1:13pm
These precincts are at bottom left fascist. Not all of The Nation's readers or contributors are of that persuasion. There are plenty of sincere and innocent naifs among them, still, ultimately, the direction, the inclinations of this journal is left fascist. It grieved at the demise of the Soviet Union and of Mao's China. It had good words for Pol Pot. Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/11/2009 @ 12:12pm
Zionist Hugo_Pirovano,
And who gave a slimy Zionist like you the mandate to profile the contributors to the Nation? It is quite ironic for an idiot like you to judge the naïve, the misled and the hard core communist among us; just because it happened that we don't share your affinity to a racist foreign state (Israel). Cool off your heels; this thread is not about China, Pol Pot or Saddam Hussein. The conversation happened to be about the undue influence of a tiny sh*tty state called Israel on America. Instead of going wild shedding your filthy profanity; you may summon your sanity and respond to some of the valid points about the specific topic of the Israeli control of our foreign Policy. Hiding under the fig-leaf of Anti-Semitism is not going to help your cause.
Posted by CripThink at 03/11/2009 @ 1:13pm
Did Rep Israel ever call on congress to investigate the Bush families "relationship with the Saudi government " ?
They call the former ambassador from Haus Saud "Prince Bandar Bush". We all know the long history the family has with the Islamic state, are they "Arabs"?
Posted by crabwalk at 03/11/2009 @ 1:18pm
'What does the US get in return? The Palestinians, in gratitude have hijacked and murdered Americans, bombed the Marine barracks, etc. They hate us and danced on the rooftops on 9/11. '
'No US serviceman has ever fought or died for Israel.'
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/11/2009 @ 12:22pm
Hmmmmm...............maybe you and Alan Dershowitz ought to write a book on this subject. While you are at it, tackle USS Liberty and Iraq (both wars).
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 1:35pm
What we have here is basically a Bush-Clinton-Obama axis in the White House that takes it's orders from AIPAC. The Obamies are basically an amalgam of Bush-Clinton thinking that has been pandering to Israel for the last 20 years. Clinton, Bush II, and now Obama are all toadys for Israel. The fact that Steve Rosen who is on trial for espionage against the U.S. and still can have this much influence while waiting for trial says it all really.
Posted by jimijazz at 03/11/2009 @ 1:37pm
'The blast and crushing debris kills 220 Marines, 18 Navy personnel, and 3 Army soldiers, 241 in all, most sleeping in their cots at the time. (70 men are injured. The Lebanese janitor for the building is killed.) It is the highest single-day death toll for American soldiers since the Vietnam Tet offensive.
A few minutes later another truck smashes into the French compound two miles away, killing 58 French soldiers. Mr. Ostrovsky continues:
"Within days, the Israelis passed along to the CIA the names of 13 people who they said were connected to the bombing[s] ..., a list including Syrian intelligence, Iranians in Damascus, and Shi'ite Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah.
"At Mossad headquarters, there was a sigh of relief that it wasn't us who got hit. It was seen as a small incident so far as the Mossad was concerned – that we had stumbled over it [that is, onto it in advance] and wouldn't tell anybody. The problem was if we had leaked information and it was traced back, our informant would have been killed. The next time, we wouldn't know if we were on the hit list.
"The general attitude about the Americans was: ‘Hey, they wanted to stick their nose into this Lebanon thing, let them pay the price.'"
Excerpt:
The Beirut Marine Baracks Bombing
http://ariwatch.com/OurAlly/BeirutBombing.htm
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 1:43pm
"What does the US get in return? The Palestinians, in gratitude have hijacked and murdered Americans, bombed the Marine barracks, etc. They hate us and danced on the rooftops on 9/11" (Pirovano 12.22p.m.)
Sorry to disappoint you. Those dancing men were the Mossad. Google it. And while we're at it, this is not the only time Israel has murdered Americans. In cold blood Israel murdered 34 crewmen on the USS Liberty in 1967. Google it.By the way, Mr Smart Guy, the primary motivation for the 9/11 hijackers WAS the one-sidedness of the US with Israel against the Palestinians. I won't go into the Jews who helped the Nazis slaughter their fellow Jews in WWII to get a homeland in Palestine, or the Armenian Holocaust, or the massacre at Shatilla and Sabra, the Gazan holocaust ooops, those were all non-Jews they killed (which they're allowed to do because the Talmud says that it's OK). Now let's see why were Jews kicked out of 47 countries over the last 1000 years?
Posted by mystic7 at 03/11/2009 @ 2:02pm
"The general attitude about the Americans was: ‘Hey, they wanted to stick their nose into this Lebanon thing, let them pay the price.'" Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 1:43pm
It was confirmed by the ex Mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky (now hiding in Canada) that the Israelis knew in advance about the attack on the US Marines in Lebanon and failed to warn the Americans. 241 American Servicemen were killed in the attack and 60 injured. Ostrovsky believes that the Israelis were furious about Regan sending the Marines to Lebanon to interfere with the Israeli Army's murderous operation there and decided to teach the Americana a lesson. This is the same Israel which sucks Billions of Dollars from us annually; the same Israel which attacked and murdered our sailors when they bombed our Navy ship the USS Liberty. It is the same Israel which is being defended by many on this Blog.
Posted by CripThink at 03/11/2009 @ 2:19pm
So Neanderthals pre-dated a Cro-Magnon "Adam & Eve"?
Posted by Mask at 03/11/2009 @ 1:06pm
Probably, but so what? They were not human.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/11/2009 @ 2:32pm
Mr. Dreyfuss, Can you actually comment on the CNOOC board involvement and critics associated to the Middle east think tank to put them in context?
Thanks,
Posted by ledesourseur at 03/11/2009 @ 2:33pm
This is just a reminder to anybody who uses "google it!" as evidence for something:
Google the phrase "tree octopus" and check out the campaign to save the great northwestern tree octopus. Get involved!
Posted by Mistral at 03/11/2009 @ 2:47pm
Like the USA, Israel is a nation of good natured fools who are largely ignorant of the depravity and criminality of their own government.
I really feel sorry for honest Jews who just want a decent life, like the rest of us. Because right now the leaders and power brokers of Israel are causing the whole world to unite against it.
This will only continue to get worse unless Israelis can reign in their evil government. This is not antisemitism, this is simply the world recoiling at numerous Israeli crimes in Gaza.
I also believe the very well coordinated, and well documented Israeli army of cyber volunteers who monopolize chat rooms and comments threads are doing much more to harm their nation than they are doing to help it.
Israel has become a terrorist state in reality, perception and in its propaganda machinery. But I live in a big glass house called the USA, so I have no rocks to throw.
Posted by LesserOf2Evils at 03/11/2009 @ 3:10pm
Probably, but so what? They were not human.---Posted by antisocialist at 03/11/2009 @ 2:32pm
Were they "animals"?
Posted by Mask at 03/11/2009 @ 3:19pm
This is the same Israel which sucks Billions of Dollars from us annually; the same Israel which attacked and murdered our sailors when they bombed our Navy ship the USS Liberty. It is the same Israel which is being defended by many on this Blog.
Posted by CripThink at 03/11/2009 @ 2:19pm
Israel is not our ally. It is a blood sucking parasite whose appetite can not be quenched. The self serving swine who defend the infestation of our government with foreign operatives are the very ones that are responsible for the significant increase in anti-semitism world wide, which reinforces the hysteria of their of their base of support, i.e., 'Israel and Jews as victims.'
We can not look to our government for restoration of control of "our" government obviously. We must look to ourselves. When things get bad enough, suppression of the will of the majority will end, and likely not via the voting booth. History has a way of repeating itself, fortunately or unfortunately as the case may be.
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 3:23pm
Israel has become a terrorist state in reality, perception and in its propaganda machinery. But I live in a big glass house called the USA, so I have no rocks to throw.
Posted by LesserOf2Evils at 03/11/2009 @ 3:10pm | ignore this person | warn this person
With US sponsorship. Throw all the rocks you want.
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 3:38pm
Why do they have negotiations in out-of-the way places like Oslo? Perhaps Israel would understand the i;portance of giving up territory in exchange for peace if they held negotiations in a place that has a certain symbolism? Kaliningrad? The Aksai Chin region of China? Constantinople? Schleswig-Holstein?
Posted by Mistral at 03/11/2009 @ 3:43pm
From a realistic and practical point of view, is there any way that the influence of the pro-Israeli lobby on our government can be reduced?
Some here have gone so far as to say that, in effect, the American government takes its marching orders from Israel. In other words, it's not so much that Israel strongly influences American policy, but rather that American policy is de facto an extension of the Israeli government. Personally, I think that is going too far. But few can dispute that the efforts of the Israeli government and pro-Israeli American Jews to influence the American government have been entirely successful.
Posted by FDR43 at 03/11/2009 @ 3:51pm
And that IS problematic, is it not?
The American govt is supposed to represent and further the interests of the AMERICAN govt, right? Not be beholden to ANY foreign nation - even George Washington warned us against that in his farewell address.
Posted by FDR43 at 03/11/2009 @ 3:54pm
Here is a question for the pro-Israel zealots (those who think our policy of one-sided and virtually unconditional support for Israel is a good policy): is it EVER the case that American and Israeli national interests are NOT coterminous? And if so (if there is such a circumstance), do they agree that AMERICAN national interests should come first?
Posted by FDR43 at 03/11/2009 @ 3:56pm
'It must never be forgotten that nothing that is really great in this world has ever been achieved by coalitions but that it has always been the success of a single victor. Coalition successes bear by the very nature of their origin the germ of future crumbling, in fact of the loss of what has already been achieved. Great, truly world-shaking revolutions of a spiritual nature are not even conceivable and realizable except as the titanic struggles of individual formations, never as enterprises of coalitions.'
From Mein Kampf
And what a splendid example of this is the destruction of Chas Freeman by the Lobby. America beware!
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 3:58pm
One Vote,
A word of advice: indications that you have been reading Mein Kampf are not exactly going to undermine accusations that you are an anti-Semite.
I'm not saying reading it necessarily makes you one (anymore than reading Dap Capital makes one a Marxist), but surely you see the trap you are stepping into!
Posted by FDR43 at 03/11/2009 @ 4:07pm
Das
Posted by FDR43 at 03/11/2009 @ 4:08pm
Not to mention the incredible irony of, in effect, accusing Jews of using Nazi-like tactics.
Posted by FDR43 at 03/11/2009 @ 4:12pm
Robert, you need to apologize for this post. Pointing out that some of the critics of Freeman are Jewish is over the line. There are many critics (most, in fact), who are not Jewish. All you have done is provided a forum for your readers to argue that Jews should not be elected to office. You should be ashamed.
Posted by hophmi at 03/11/2009 @ 4:20pm
Das
Posted by FDR43 at 03/11/2009 @ 4:08pm | ignore this person | warn this person
'Zionism was supported by the German SS and Gestapo.[3] [4] [5] [6] Hitler himself personally supported Zionism.[7] [8] During the 1930's, in cooperation with the German authorities, Zionist groups organized a network of some 40 camps throughout Germany where prospective settlers were trained for their new lives in Palestine. As late as 1942 Zionists operated at least one of these officially authorized "Kibbutz" training camps[9] over which flew the blue and white banner which would one day be adopted as the national flag of "Israel".[10]'
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/nazisupport.cfm
This is a Jewish website, comprised of True Torah believers. Are they anti-semites too?
Secondly, Jews often reference Mein Kampf.
What you mean to say is Mein Kampf is off limits to certain groups, i.e., gentiles.
Sorry pal....I am not buying it.
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 4:49pm
Not to mention the incredible irony of, in effect, accusing Jews of using Nazi-like tactics.
Posted by FDR43 at 03/11/2009 @ 4:12pm | ignore this person | warn this person
You don't think Gaza and West Bank bear any similarity to genocide and displacement practiced by Hitler?
If so, I would love to hear your explanation.
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 4:52pm
'Marr took these philosophies one step further by rejecting the premise of assimilation as a means for Jews to become Germans. In his pamphlet Der Weg zum Siege des Germanentums über das Judentum (The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism, 1879) he introduced the idea that Germans and Jews were locked in a longstanding conflict, the origins of which he attributed to race -- and that the Jews were winning. He argued that Jewish emancipation resulting from German liberalism had allowed the Jews to control German finance and industry. Furthermore, since this conflict was based on the different qualities of the Jewish and German races, it could not be resolved even by the total assimilation of the Jewish population. According to him, the struggle between Jews and Germans would only be resolved by the victory of one and the ultimate death of the other. A Jewish victory, he concluded, would result in finis Germaniae (the end of the German people). To prevent this from happening, in 1879 Marr founded the League of Antisemites (Antisemiten-Liga), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany posed by the Jews and advocating their forced removal from the country.'
Source: Wikipedia; Query: Wilhelm Marr
Marr by the way married Jews. The Palestinian debate going on in Israel right now. See any similarities?
Marr is considered to have coined the term anti-semitism.
By the way, the Mein Kampf quote above bears obvious similarity to Marr's philosophy about the possibility of a "coalition" between Jews and Germans.
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 5:01pm
Probably, but so what? They were not human.---Posted by antisocialist at 03/11/2009 @ 2:32pm
Were they "animals"?
Posted by Mask at 03/11/2009 @ 3:19pm
I answered that previously. the Neanderthals were hominids, but not human. The DNA tests have shown that conclusively
Posted by antisocialist at 03/11/2009 @ 5:07pm
Not to mention the incredible irony of, in effect, accusing Jews of using Nazi-like tactics.
Posted by FDR43 at 03/11/2009 @ 4:12pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Give a read to Chapter 8 "From Character Assassinatiion to Murder" by Julius Schoeps in the book Unwilling Germans, The Goldhagen Debate.
Also interesting is the question of complicity of the so called liberal or moderate Germans, denounced by Jews for Holocaust silence and lack of government toppling outrage.
Can the same be said for liberal or moderate Jews vis a vis Palestine who give sanitized and intellectualized lip service to possibility of problem, but do nothing concrete to stop it? Where is the outrage?
Seems to me like we are dealing with very similar issues here.
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 5:32pm
Chas Freeman, the Obama administration's choice to serve in a key U.S. intelligence post, abruptly withdrew Tuesday after House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and numerous other congressional leaders complained to the White House that he was too closely tied to Saudi and Chinese government interests.
The resignation of Freeman represents another serious "vetting" embarrassment for the White House and a personal blow to Dennis Blair, President Obama's national intelligence director. After choosing Freeman to head the National Intelligence Council, Blair had publicly defended his choice and insisted as recently as this week that he had no intention of withdrawing the selection. On Monday, Freeman himself was telling people on Capitol Hill that the more criticism was heaped on him, the more intent he was on fighting to stay at the intelligence council.
And. . .
But Pelosi in particular was upset about public comments that seemed to belittle the Chinese human-rights movement--a cause she has championed for years. In 2005, for instance, Freeman was quoted as writing in a public e-mail about the Tiananmen Square massacre: "[T]he truly unforgivable mistake of the Chinese authorities was the failure to intervene on a timely basis to nip the demonstrations in the bud … In this optic, the Politburo's response to the mob scene at 'Tian'anmen' stands as a monument to overly cautious behavior on the part of the leadership, not as an example of rash action.
Who knew Pelosi was a Jewish Neocon?
Posted by comancheamerican at 03/11/2009 @ 6:07pm
All right...here we go:
Right off the top, same question that I have put to EVERYONE, with NO RESPONSE: Can you please define for me what this supposedly all-powerful Lobby entails? Yes, I know AIPAC exists, and yes it exercises influence, just as many other lobbying groups exercise influence in favor of interests they care about (including Saudi government officials, as Crabwalk himself points out). To further than that, you need a lot more than just, as I've said, shooting at phantoms.
Moreover, some of these arguments are just awful. I'll tackle a few, and then maybe spill onto another post:
AIPAC was not in strong support, and arguably not at ALL in support of the invasion of Iraq. Why? Because it could (as it did) empower Iran, who they were and are rightly even more concerned about. I've yet to see any response to this basic strategic point.
<i>Posted by mystic7 at 03/11/2009 @ 2:02pm </i>
Congratulations; you unambiguously cross the line here, though I must say that outright lies don't become you. The Liberty incident has been dealt with in these discussions before. The "Jews helping slaughter fellow Jews" point is awful for two reasons. One, generally they didn't; they sometimes took jobs at the camps, but never (from what I know) actually killed anyone. Two, this was in the middle of the Holocaust! Are you suggesting that these people should have been tried at Nuremburg? This is retarded. Three, what was the connection to Palestine, again? When the Nazis were slaughtering Jews, they were past the point of giving them ANY homeland; this was the "kill all Jews" phase, so again your argument is dumb. Armenian Holocaust? Eh? This was the Ottoman Empire.
Continued...
Posted by Thrawn at 03/11/2009 @ 6:41pm
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/11/2009 @ 09:29am
My hangover has finally subsided and I'll try to clear things up.
My post last night, after "I mean," was a direct quote from Hitler, and a ruse, an attempt to perhaps lure an anti-zionist hater into my trap.
Superior intellects like mine, boozy and drug-addled though I may be, sometimes employ these backdoor methods.
Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
The methods of the papist who travels among many like unto himself are often shrouded in inscrutability, but in time, all shall come to light.
Posted by gangpapist at 03/11/2009 @ 6:43pm
<i>Posted by CripThink at 03/11/2009 @ 2:19pm </i>
This seems awfully shaky, AND it took place in the early 80's. Pretty thin reed to hang a holistic position like this on, even if your claims are true.
<i>Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 4:52pm </i>
No? I agree with you that they're...bad, but...no, they're not anything near gas chambers, oddly enough...
<i>Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 5:01pm </i>
Marr's theory is also unmistakably anti-Jewish; this seems pretty intuitive.
<i>Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 5:32pm </i>
No, you can't analogize them. One, one of these populations has actually been bombed by members of the other. Two, as I've said, this isn't a genocide, even though it's still bad. Three, notwithstanding the other two, the analogy would have to be to "people with German connections worldwide," and I think we can agree that this tweaking would make the argument silly. Should Israelis speak up more about this? Well, yeah.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/11/2009 @ 6:46pm
I answered that previously. the Neanderthals were hominids, but not human. The DNA tests have shown that conclusively.----Posted by antisocialist at 03/11/2009 @ 5:07pm
Okay, did the "homonids" have "souls"?
Posted by Mask at 03/11/2009 @ 7:11pm
As someone who supports Israel's right to exist, first let me say that: 1. Israel has committed sins against the Palestinians. 2. The settlers are antagonistic and counterproductive. 3. If I were Palestinian, maybe I would be at the photo shop getting an air-brushed pre-suicide poster for momma.
I do find the framing of the issue by the hard-core anti-zionist side is either disingenous or misinformed. 1. Israel was not simply "carved out of the orchards" of the Palestinians for the benefit of the ashkenazi refugees. The history pre-‘48 is far more complicated than that, and involves ill-will, as well as outreach, on both sides. 2. It is simply not true that there is a total disconnect between the Nazis that created the refugee crisis and the Palestinians who refused to accept them, or the other Arab governments that have tried to destroy them, or Arab Jew-hatred in general.
Many of the Palestinians followed Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, who favored the annihilation of the Jews not only in Palestine, but in all the ME, and said as much. They have been cynically used ever since as pawns by everyone from Nasser, to Gaddafi, to Hussein, to Ahmadinejad. If Israel were either destroyed, or the crisis ever solved, it would be declared a victory, but would in fact be a loss to the Arab regimes. They would no longer have their smokescreen to divert attention from the dictator's who compete to be the strongman of Pan-Arabia, and the proxy Shia vs. Sunni death cults that they support, who have murdered many more Arabs and Muslims than the worst Israeli fascist has dreamed of.
Posted by gangpapist at 03/11/2009 @ 7:41pm
Further, if Israel were destroyed, it would mean a complete collapse and dissolution of any kind of humanism and morality in the world. The final nail in the coffin of the "Never Again" mantra. This would perhaps be a victory for the radical Left, as it would mean the triumph of moral relativism. After Holocaust II, all would be disillusion, morality meaningless, no such thing as "good" or "bad" deeds, only deeds.
Israel is the only nation in the world openly targeted for annihilation by multiple nations. Does nobody on the Left have the capacity to imagine how that could psychologically produce on occasion counter-productive, even outright inhumane behavior, or do the apologetics apply only to the Palestinians? This does not mean Israel should be written a blank check. The people of Israel have a right to exist. If the Palestinians cannot respect that, righteous as some of their anger may be, they will never move forward.
Posted by gangpapist at 03/11/2009 @ 7:42pm
Posted by Thrawn at 03/11/2009 @ 6:46pm | ignore this person | warn this person
So - because Israel hasn't sent any Palestinians to a gas chamber yet, they can not be guilty of crimes commensurate with Nazi? Not dispositive.
Marr's theory is anti-semitic, but so is Israel's view of Arabs - also anti-semetic by the way. Hitler no doubt stole a page from Marr. Marr did marry Jews, and so his no possibility of assimilation ideology was more complex and perhaps more reflective than the innate germanic hatred of Jews concocted by Zionists such as Goldhagen.
Zionist theory espouses a Jewish state and majority from within as well as occupied terrority. How is this different from purification of Germany?
World Jewish Congress declared war on Hitler before Hitler retaliated against Jews. They sought to bring the Nazi down through economic boycott and turmoil first - 1933. This isn't a de facto hostile action? Sorry. We killed 500,000 Iraqi children that way before we ever invaded Iraq. Please be sincere.
Israel violated Palestinian terrority and provoked the breaking of ceasefire on Nov. 5, 2008. Bunker busting bombs used in Gaza sold to Israel by US in Sept. 2008. This was a done deal Thrawn.
Stop being an apologist. Glad we can agree that liberal and moderate Jews here and in Israel can do much more to stop the atrocity and insanity. Our government can do more to, but with the Zionists firmly in control, that is not likely to happen.
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 7:54pm
The people of Israel have a right to exist. If the Palestinians cannot respect that, righteous as some of their anger may be, they will never move forward.
Posted by gangpapist at 03/11/2009 @ 7:42pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Wonderful Zionist understatement of "the conflict."
Check out "The Iron Wall" documentary on YouTube. Little bit more going on here than Israel's right to exist.
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 8:07pm
<i>Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 7:54pm </i>
No, status quo absence of gas chambers isn't dispositive, but the fact that there will never BE anything even remotely on the level of gas chambers or anything else IS.
As for the theory, I'll deal with it briefly. Actions inconsistent with a theory do not cure the theory itself. Moreover, the concept of a Jewish state wold be problematic in the way you describe if it was coupled with driving non-Jews out. Was it? No. Am I concerned that there have been far-right politicians in Israel advocating that? Yes; though it's worth noting that they have been bombed and repeatedly targeted for annihilation, I think it's still repulsive. But (and this is targeted at Crip/syfriendly) that certainly doesn't justify calling them inhuman or vermin or anything like that.
World Jewish Congress? Hmm, that's interesting for a couple of reasons. One of which is that they didn't even exist until 1936; poverty had been a serious issue in Germany long before that. And why was it a serious issue? The Depression plus war debts. Unless you buy the "Jews ran the world's economy" theory" that comes straight out of the Protocols, your claim here has no merit whatsoever. It would also be an attack on all boycotts ever.
Additionally...declared war against Hitler? For one thing, the idea that they had the power to create even worse conditions in Germany is laughable to begin with. Compounding that, why might they do so? Oh yeah, because his campaign platform was "the Jews are to blame!" Could that possibly have affected their opposition to his regime?
Finally, if Hamas stockpiles weapons, is the appropriate response to wait till they're fired. Granted, it also isn't "kill everything," but that just makes both you and Israel's army wrong.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/11/2009 @ 8:08pm
Posted by gangpapist at 03/11/2009 @ 7:41pm
You are missing the point!
AIPAC and the Israeli government wanted the US to invade Iraq, and helped make the case with phony intelligence concerning WMDs.
Now, they are trying to make the same case for invading Iran by making this country appear to be far more threatening than it actually is, in which "our" National Intelligence Estimate that showed abandonment of the Iranian nuclear program in 2003 is supposed to be ignored in favor of THEIR intelligence.
To complete this scheme they get Feinstein to chair intelligence in the Senate, and then she tries to bring in Jane Harman - an unabashed AIPACer - to head US intelligence! After that effort failed with the appointment of Panetta and Admiral Blair, the Israeli Lobby, through their surrogates in Congress, start working on the intelligence underlings - and Freeman was the logical target.
There is absolutely no doubt in any reasonable person's mind who is paying attention, that the Israeli Lobby wants to control US intelligence so they can make the case for an invasion of Iran, an invasion of Syria, and then an invasion of Lebanon to complete their mission of weakening all of Israel's neighbors, as this is what Likud and the right wing in Israel believe to be "real" Israeli security.
The problem with this scheme is that the US would suffer the economic consequences of such ill-advised invasions that would make the current economic meltdown look like a walk in the park, and world stability and security would be irreparably damaged to such an extent that we may never recover.
We should at least have a PUBLIC debate about this rather than letting this lobby do its destructive dirty work in secret!
Posted by Metteyya at 03/11/2009 @ 8:11pm
Posted by Thrawn at 03/11/2009 @ 8:08pm | ignore this person | warn this person
On March 12, 1933 the American Jewish Congress announced a massive protest at Madison Square Gardens for March 27. At that time the commander in chief of the Jewish War Veterans called for an American boycott of German goods. In the meantime, on March 23, 20,000 Jews protested at New York's City Hall as rallies were staged outside the North German Lloyd and Hamburg-American shipping lines and boycotts were mounted against German goods throughout shops and businesses in New York City.
According to The Daily Express of London of March 24, 1933, the Jews had already launched their boycott against Germany and her elected government. The headline read "Judea Declares War on Germany - Jews of All the World Unite - Boycott of German Goods - Mass Demonstrations." The article described a forthcoming "holy war" and went on to implore Jews everywhere to boycott German goods and engage in mass demonstrations against German economic interests. According to the Express:
The whole of Israel throughout the world is uniting to declare an economic and financial war on Germany. The appearance of the Swastika as the symbol of the new Germany has revived the old war symbol of Judas to new life. Fourteen million Jews scattered over the entire world are tight to each other as if one man, in order to declare war against the German persecutors of their fellow believers. The Jewish wholesaler will quit his house, the banker his stock exchange, the merchant his business, and the beggar his humble hut, in order to join the holy war against Hitler's people. The Express said that Germany was "now confronted with an international boycott of its trade, its finances, and its industry....
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 8:20pm
The Express said that Germany was "now confronted with an international boycott of its trade, its finances, and its industry.... In London, New York, Paris and Warsaw, Jewish businessmen are united to go on an economic crusade."
The article said "worldwide preparations are being made to organize protest demonstrations," and reported that "the old and reunited nation of Israel gets in formation with new and modern weapons to fight out its age old battle against its persecutors."
This truly could be described as "the first shot fired in the Second World War."
http://www.wintersonnenwende.com
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 8:23pm
<i>Posted by Metteyya at 03/11/2009 @ 8:11pm </i>
I've already beaten this multiple times over. The Israeli government didn't want an invasion of Iraq because it would destabilize the Iraq-Iran balance of power. This argument has NEVER been responded to. If they want an invasion of Iran, your argument becomes even worse, because they haven't succeeded and are nowhere close to doing so. What happened to them being "all-powerful"?
<i>Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 8:20pm </i>
As I said, there was no World Jewish Congress at the time (the article never specifies one), but that's not a really crucial point.
The really crucial point is that your argument here completely lacks any sort of context, though your article itself makes this point for me. One, there's no basis for the claim that they were capable of bringing down an economy. Two, why do they want to boycott these goods? Because half of Hitler's platform was literally Jew-hatred, and because Germany was persecuting Jews! Somehow, this never makes its way into your analysis. Interestingly enough, one could easily equate it with divestment from South Africa's apartheid government...except even more clearly justified.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/11/2009 @ 8:34pm
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 8:23pm
You seem to be going down the road of the Jews had it coming to them then, and they have it coming to them now. I might have to sit out the Israel/Palestine blogs. This is too depressing.
I am starting to believe that Holocaust II is in the making. It's not just a ploy by the Jew lobby. Already we see Leftists leaning towards the beginnings of a new Holocaust I revision.
We have movies like "The Reader" winning Oscars for inviting us to sympathize with an illiterate Nazi-executioner because she has breasts.
I said before that I sympathize with Palestinians, and if I were in that position, who knows what I might do.
I ask again, why, with all the destruction and oppression in the Arab world, is the evil eye so singularly focused on Israel? Do you think that if Israel ceased to exist the ME would be a happier place?
Posted by gangpapist at 03/11/2009 @ 8:42pm
Posted by Thrawn at 03/11/2009 @ 8:08pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Pardon me Thrawn - which is more repugnant....killing a Palestianian by cluster bomb or a gas chamber again?
Israel has never driven Palestinians out of its terrority?
Does an acknowledged 700,000 in 1949 count?
'During the conflict 711,000 Arabs, according to UN estimates, or about 80% of the previous Arab population, fled the country.[61] The fate of the Palestinian refugees today is a major point of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.[62][63]'
Wikipedia....
Yeah right....they all just decided to leave voluntarily.
You acknowledge Israel broke the ceasefire. Thank you. So this was a preemptive attack (in violation of US military aid which is supposed to be used for self defense - hahahah) which killed over 1350 Palestinians. Very good Thrawn. So Hitler was preemptively removing the Jewish threat then. That should be okay by you then.
As to economic conditions in Germany, Nazi support grew because things started getting better for Germans - and many Germans felt that throwing off the yoke of Jewish financial monopoly (whether real or imagined) played a part in that.
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 8:47pm
Posted by Thrawn at 03/11/2009 @ 8:34pm
I know you don't know me, but let me tell you a story.
A college friend of mine from Berkeley invited me over his place one evening to watch the bombing of the first Gulf War on Iraq. He was born in Israel and a member of AIPAC - the central group in the Israeli Lobby.
One of the remarkable things when we watched the bombings together was how into it he was...he kept egging the planes on and hoped that somehow they would GET SADDAM.
Needless to say, he was heartbroken when George HW decided NOT to "finish the job".
This same friend invited me to an AIPAC meeting in San Francisco one day after the Gulf War had ended, and guess who was the guest speaker at the meeting?
Dianne Feinstein!
It was clear to me that Feinstein and the group thought HW should have finished the job, as the "theory" expressed at the time is that a puppet government of the US would be a great BUFFER for Israeli security.
This "buffer theory" persisted at AIPAC, and YES they did want Bush W. to invade Iraq and "finish the job", and on the AIPAC website prior to the invasion they had numerous "calls to action" to try to influence Congress to support an invasion of Iraq.
After it became clear AFTER the war that a Shia led government would lead Iraq and that such a government would be allied with Iran, the buffer theory was proven wrong and then AIPAC scrambled to re-write history to make it look like they did not want the Iraq invasion.
These are the facts, but don't take my word for it, go talk to some people who have been around AIPAC a while and they will admit as much.
They miscalculated with their buffer theory, and now have a new "ultimate security" theory that requires the weakening of all of Israel's neighbors.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/11/2009 @ 8:48pm
I ask again, why, with all the destruction and oppression in the Arab world, is the evil eye so singularly focused on Israel? Do you think that if Israel ceased to exist the ME would be a happier place?
Posted by gangpapist at 03/11/2009 @ 8:42pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Absolutely not. Just want Israel to acknowledge Palestinian rights to exist as well. And, I don't want us pissing off the entire planet by supporting expansionist Zionism. I have no problem with US defending Israel against real attack either. But I don't think we should be taking preemptive action such as threatening Iran with nuclear attack, and if Israel has nukes for deterrance, why shouldn't Iran. The neocons have gone way way too far, and the Zionists are part and parcel of this destructive and counterproductive ideology. The Zionists have a stranglehold on our foreign policy and I want that to stop.
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 8:59pm
Posted by Thrawn at 03/11/2009 @ 8:34pm | ignore this person | warn this person
How is this for context....does Gaza represent a true threat to Israel or just a nuisance?
So Ahmadinejad says let us get rid of the Jews. Israel takes that pretty seriously don't they....so much so they want the US green light to nuke the hell of them. Context becoming clear?
Jewish financial interests were substantial and could cause Hitler a problem. They declared war on Hitler. If we use Israel as a yardstick, it doesn't matter whether the declarant is a serious threat or not does it.
Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 9:11pm
Here is the President of AIPAC, 10 days after we invaded Iraq:
"Dear friends,
We gather at a solemn and awesome moment in the history of our nation and in the history of Israel. The President of the United States is leading American forces to take on one of the countries in theaxis of evil.
A country, run by a ruthless dictator intent on using his WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION against American interests and allies abroad; a country that HARBORS TERRORISTS; a country that routinely paid the families of Palestinian homicide bombers 25,000 dollars in blood money for the killing of Jews."
Notice the reference to WMDs and HARBORS TERRORISTS, which were the 2 pillars in the phony intelligence leading up to the invasion of Iraq.
It is UNDENIABLE Thrawn that AIPAC wanted us to invade Iraq and actively participated in spreading phony intelligence that tricked us into doing "their" will.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/11/2009 @ 10:08pm
<i>Posted by Metteyya at 03/11/2009 @ 10:08pm </i>
OK, this is AFTER the invasion. Getting behind the Administration after the invasion is either inevitable or has already begun isn't proof that they agreed with it from the outset; it's proof that they wanted to stay politically relevant.
Moreover...why have we not bombed Iran? And further, why is there no indication whatsoever that we WILL bomb either Iran, or Syria, or for that matter...any other country in the Middle East.
As a caveat...I will confess that your story is somewhat persuasive, but I still think that the facts at least undercut the "all-powerful Israel Lobby" myth, if not the claim about Iraq.
<i>Posted by OneVote at 03/11/2009 @ 9:11pm</i>
First off, let's avoid the monolithic "Jewish interests" label to assume that all decisions from WWII to today are made by the same entity. Second, I think we've finally (more or less) agreed that the boycott of Hitler's Germany was completely justified, so I think we can at last kick that out of the realm of relevancy.
Ahmadinejad says "let's get rid of the Jews" and they take that seriously? Yes! Is it a certain predictor? No. Should it be ignored? No, you'd be dumb to, especially after a Holocaust has already been carried out and antisemitism (again, best available term, sorry) still simmers in Europe and is going strong in the Middle East.
As for Gaza, particularly in the status quo...I think it could more fairly be classified as a nuisance than a real threat, so long as they or their mission don't get strong support from neighboring regimes (Hezbollah, anyone?).
Posted by Thrawn at 03/11/2009 @ 10:16pm
An Independent thinker? What sillyness. The guy was essentially taking the worldview of our enemies, much like the awful President Carter. Taking the view of people that wish us ill-will is, at best, adolescent in nature. Good riddance.
Posted by pyeatte at 03/11/2009 @ 10:27pm
Here is a Near East report from AIPAC 2 months before we invaded Iraq that treats WMDs in Iraq as fact.
"January 20, 2003
Preparing to Protect
Faced with the prospect of an Iraqi missile attack involving chemical or biological weapons, Israel is working in various ways to safeguard its population.
As the Israeli military prepares its missile defense ahead of a possible war with Iraq, the IDF Home Front Command has taken significant steps to deal with the aftermath of a potentially successful Iraqi attack on Israel.
Israel has been working to prepare for possible attacks with weapons of mass destruction
Israeli security services have conducted numerous exercises recently to prepare for the immediate aftermath of an attack with weapons of mass destruction. "nuclear, chemical or biological missiles can hit one of our cities," said Colonel Gili Shenhar, chief of development for the Home Front Command. "Our goal is to prepare our country for that.""
Posted by Metteyya at 03/11/2009 @ 10:27pm
Exposing the Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestinians does not equal defending Arab Dictatorships. Just a passing historic note; all 23 Arab Dictators came up with an Arab initiative to normalize all economic an political ties with Israel, if Israel pulls back to its 1967 borders. Ariel Sharon responded to the Arab initiative by unleashing his forces to totally ravage the Palestinian Authority's infrastructure in the West Bank and re-impose total Israeli control over the entire West Bank. When Herzl was talking grandly in 1895 in the privacy of his diary about "our own country," Jews were hardly one-twentieth of the population of Palestine. When Britain's Balfour Declaration promising a Jewish state in Palestine was issued in November 1917, there still were only an estimated 55,000 Jews among another 670,000 Muslim and Christian Palestinians. Massive ethnic cleansing of Palestinians took place between 1917 and 1948 by three Zionist terror groups; the Haganah, the Stern Gang and the Irgun. Palestinian villages were ransacked and thousands of Palestinians were murdered in cold blood to terrify Palestinians to flee their homes. 750,000 to 800,000 Palestinians were not permitted by Israel to return to their homes after its creation in 1948. There was contentious disagreement between Ben-Gurion and other Zionist leaders pertaining to the fate of Palestinians prior to 1948. Ben-Gurion believed that keeping a small minority of Palestinians in Israel will burnish Israeli claim of being an inclusive democracy; other Jewish leaders disagreed; they wanted all Palestinians out. No one is threatening Israel today, except the weight of its own racism.
Posted by CripThink at 03/11/2009 @ 10:31pm
For those who still see an Israeli triumph of democracy in the ethnic-cleansing of Palestinians ought to listen to the future Israeli Prime Minster:
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when the world's attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." --Binyamin Netanyahu, when he was Israel's deputy foreign minister in 1989, quoted in Yediot Ahronot.
Not a single American official is calling for not speaking to the sly racist Netanyahu. The American attitude is summed up in: We will not speak to Hamas, unless Hamas recognizes a fellow like Netanyahu, but will deal with any Israeli Government; no matter how racist or anti peace it happens to be.
Posted by CripThink at 03/11/2009 @ 10:46pm
It's not smear tactics when you tell the truth.
Posted by pyeatte at 03/11/2009 @ 10:57pm
5 months before invading Iraq , this is what AIPAC was saying in their briefing book to members of Congress:
"Iraq and Iran remain the greatest threats to Israel. Both deny Israel's very right to exist. Both have used chemical weapons in the past, are engaged in active programs to develop or acquire nuclear, chemical and/or biological weapons, and the missiles to deliver them.
Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, who attacked Israel with 39 Scud missiles just ten years ago, continues to threaten Israel with destruction as he violates UN Security Council resolutions mandating an end to Iraqi WMD programs and requiring arms monitoring. Since the expulsion of UN arms inspectors in 1998, Iraq has reportedly accelerated its program to rebuild its weapons of mass destruction.
In Iran, the expected deployment of the Iranian Shihab-3 ballistic missile will alter the strategic balance in the Middle East. Intelligence assessments have stated that Iran could be within five years of a nuclear weapons capability."
ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE SUCKS!!!
Posted by Metteyya at 03/11/2009 @ 10:59pm
OneVote at 4:52pm asked:
>>You don't think Gaza and West Bank bear any similarity to genocide and displacement practiced by Hitler?<<
Hitler destroyed Europe's Jews though they were law abiding and productive citizens, not least of Germany.
In May '48, Azzam Pasha, speaking for the Palestinians announced:
"This will be a war of extermination ... spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades"
The Palestinian leader, Hajj Amin Husseini called on the Arab world to invade and "slaughter the Jews."
Jamal Husseini, told the Security Council that April:
" The Jewish Agency told us yesterday ... the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight."
They fought, lost and 600,000 fled. The 110,000 who stayed are now Israel's 1.5 million Arab citizens. They are the only society among the Middle East's 400 million Muslims to live in a real democracy and enjoy both a decent standard of life and full human rights.
After June '67, Israel controlled Gaza and W/B. Within a years they brought electrification to the area, piped in water so that consumption per capita rose 3 fold. Within 10 years they raised Palestinian literacy from the lowest in Arab world to the highest, reversed atrocious infant mortality numbers, increased life expectancy by 2 years, more than doubled income and for the first time gave those people access to fair and uncorrupt courts. The two Intifadas reversed much of that progress, but it was real and stands in UN records.
The G &W/B population increased five fold under Jewish guns. Israel is infinitely stronger than the Palestinians yet they bombard Israel and threaten her with extermination.
But you say the Jews are behaving like Nazis.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 12:04am
Okay, did the "homonids" have "souls"?
Posted by Mask at 03/11/2009 @ 7:11pm
No
Posted by antisocialist at 03/12/2009 @ 09:22am
The only outrage was that of appointing Charles Freeman in the first place.
It would be like appointing the grand dragon of the Klu Klux Klan to head the civil rights commission. The man was anti-Israel to the core, and you don't appoint someone who detests one of our most important allies to a post of strategic importance. No Jewish organization complained when Obama appointed George Mitchell as his envoy to find a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and Mitchell has criticized Israel's settlement policy, the checkpoints, and not allowing more aid into Gaza. Nevertheless, Israeli's know Mitchell is fair. Freeman, on the other hand is a conspiracy theorist who blames everything on the Jews. The appointment was a mistake from the beginning.
Posted by markjefferykoch at 03/12/2009 @ 09:50am
Posted by antisocialist at 03/12/2009 @ 09:22am
You Are There - Starring the Clairvoyant Preacher /or did you simply look into the mirror this morning?
Speaking of mirrors. You'd better trim that long white hair & beard. Bullet Bob Dornan would be mighty displeased if he saw you. Getting the raspberry at the next John Birch Society meeting could be devastating.
Posted by Sorelish at 03/12/2009 @ 10:11am
No----Posted by antisocialist at 03/12/2009 @ 09:22am
So why did they engage in ritualistic burial, even to carefully, even lovingly putting their dead in the ground and surrounding them with their possessions and flowers?
(BTW, go to answersingenesis.com where they try to debunk that!)
Posted by Mask at 03/12/2009 @ 10:12am
But you say the Jews are behaving like Nazis.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 12:04am | ignore this person | warn this person
'Lieberman loyalty proposal finds support in U.S. By Ben Harris · February 10, 2009
NEW YORK (JTA) – As Yisrael Beiteinu vaulted into third place in Israel's elections, capturing 15 Knesset seats, several American Jewish organizational leaders defended the party's controversial leader, Avigdor Lieberman.
Some liberal Israeli and Jewish groups have condemned Lieberman as a fascist -- the left-wing Meretz Party even compared him to the late far-right Austrian politician Joerg Haider -- for his proposal to require Israeli citizens to sign an oath of allegiance to the Jewish state in a bid to curtail Israeli Arab political power.
But the Anti-Defamation League, an organization that is quick to spot instances of discrimination, says Lieberman is right to be concerned about apparent acts of disloyalty by Israeli Arabs.
Abraham Foxman, the ADL's national director, noted with concern the trips by Arab Israeli Knesset members to enemy states and expressions of solidarity with Hamas by Israeli Arabs during Israel's recent military operation in the Gaza Strip.'
Source: JTA.org
Depends on which side of the fence you are on Hugo, and that "fence" is both literal and figurative.
So German Jews denounced the 1933 boycott and swore an oath of loyalty to Germany?
Posted by OneVote at 03/12/2009 @ 11:49am
'The Jewish resistance during the Holocaust was the resistance of the Jewish people against Nazi Germany leading up to and through World War II. Due to the careful organization and overwhelming military might of the Nazi German State and its supporters, many Jews were unable to resist the killings. There were, however, many cases of attempts at resistance in one form or another, and over a hundred armed Jewish uprisings.'
Source: Wikipedia
Posted by OneVote at 03/12/2009 @ 11:51am
For the US to wake up, there is more of these openly anti US national interest Jewish interference needed. Wall Street fiasco, Medoff making disappear 65 B, Iraq fiasco, etc etc .. well .. American Jews know all this will lead to a backlash soon .. things now open for all to see and no need of guessing anymore .. slowly slowly many US politicians turning against this. Time is against Israel and South African destiny model is ahead.
For Natanyaho & Liberman, first it was Holocaust , then came Jews without home and terrorist .. and now they defending liberal democracy and clash of civilization and Judeo Christian value against Islam values .. Hehehe .. all excuses to usurp indigene homes ..
Will not work ..
Posted by Giani at 03/12/2009 @ 11:58am
In Ha'aretz on Jan. 25 2002, correspondent Amir Oren cites Israeli military sources for the admission that the IDF has studied the Nazi operations against the Warsaw Ghetto as a model for what the IDF is doing against the Palestinian ghetto today.
I.E. "The Stroop Report" ...
Sharon's press spokesman, Ra'anan Gissen on the truth as wither or no IDF officers were studying the Nazi Warsaw Ghetto strategy ...
Gissen: "Some officers may have been looking at that. They thought that it was similar, because you would be fighting street-by-street against the Palestinian Authority. The real problem is those who refuse to serve." (A movement had begun among Israeli reservists, resisting the IDF's strategy) "They may have to face a court-martial. They will have to face the consequences, if they do not serve when they are called up; that is the real problem."
Israeli Chief of Staff Gen. Shaul Mofaz told the Knesset (parliament) that the goal of this "Operation Security Imperative," is to crush the the Palestinians' "will and capability to act against us."
So no matter the neurotically anal, reductionist splitting of hairs, certain analogies do in fact hold, are based on truth and the facts on the ground.
Were obvious all along.
Posted by V at 03/12/2009 @ 11:59am
>>>Freeman, on the other hand is a conspiracy theorist who blames everything on the Jews. The appointment was a mistake from the beginning.
Posted by markjefferykoch at 03/12/2009 @ 09:50am<<<
You are missing the point as well!
Freeman is NOT an envoy or a diplomat - HE IS AN INTELLIGENCE OFFICIAL!!!
His concern about Israeli intelligence being self-serving rather than an honest assessment of the risks we face is well founded, and Obama would be well served with more people like Freeman who understand how our intelligence was manipulated in the past to justify an illegal invasion of another country.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/12/2009 @ 12:02pm
'Mr Block: He So Clever Behold the Washington-speak:
For example, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), often described as the most influential pro-Israel lobbying group in Washington, "took no position on this matter and did not lobby the Hill on it," spokesman Josh Block said.
But Block responded to reporters' questions and provided critical material about Freeman, albeit always on background, meaning his comments could not be attributed to him, according to three journalists who spoke to him. Asked about this yesterday, Block replied: "As is the case with many, many issues every day, when there is general media interest in a subject, I often provide publicly available information to journalists on background."
Greenwald notes how Block's games - now you see me, now you don't - corrupt our discourse:
Reporters agreed to keep AIPAC's "private" involvement a secret by allowing them to do everything "on background," and -- far worse -- then allowed what they knew to be the false impression to be created that AIPAC had no involvement in the campaign.
Instead of the truth, what we have is AIPAC insinuating (through Mark Mazzetti's article) and Fred Hiatt outright stating that Freeman's accusations of AIPAC's involvement are false and deranged -- all because journalists concealed AIPAC's involvement by agreeing to keep it all off the record and therefore pretending it didn't exist.'
Excerpt: The Daily Dish, Andrew Sullivan, 03/12/09
You have media complicity in keeping AIPAC under the radar. Why? Because their influence is anti-american and the majority of Americans want an even handed approach. This is just disgusting.
Posted by OneVote at 03/12/2009 @ 12:17pm
So no matter the neurotically anal, reductionist splitting of hairs, certain analogies do in fact hold, are based on truth and the facts on the ground.
Were obvious all along.
Posted by V at 03/12/2009 @ 11:59am | ignore this person | warn this person
Great post V. Thanks.
Posted by OneVote at 03/12/2009 @ 12:21pm
If I wasn't aware that I'm on Nation's website, after reading Mr.Dreyfuss's article I would guess that it was by Mr. Buchanan in Human Events. (incl. the amen chorus (corner) phrase.
By the way Israeli government's support for attacking Iraq under Sharon was only pro forma. He was aware that Sadam's Iraq as well other Sunni states were sworn enemies of Iran. Who can ignore that a million people perished in the 80's in the war between Iraq and Iran and of course the US and Sunni states supported Iraq. The only exception was Syria which is run by a minority, Alawites, a Shiite people.
Sir you are no less a demagogue than Rushbo.
Posted by mamatata at 03/12/2009 @ 2:16pm
BTW, for those interested, I saw a devastating refutation from a Washington Post editorial:
<<But let's consider the ambassador's broader charge: He describes "an inability of the American public to discuss, or the government to consider, any option for U.S. policies in the Middle East opposed by the ruling faction in Israeli politics." That will certainly be news to Israel's "ruling faction," which in the past few years alone has seen the U.S. government promote a Palestinian election that it opposed; refuse it weapons it might have used for an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities; and adopt a policy of direct negotiations with a regime that denies the Holocaust and that promises to wipe Israel off the map. Two Israeli governments have been forced from office since the early 1990s after open clashes with Washington over matters such as settlement construction in the occupied territories.>>
The editorial was called "Blame the Lobby," for anyone who's interested.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/12/2009 @ 2:52pm
V at 03/12 @ 11:59am wrote:
>> In Ha'aretz on Jan. 25 2002, correspondent Amir Oren cites Israeli military sources for the admission that the IDF has studied the Nazi operations against the Warsaw Ghetto as a model for what the IDF is doing against the Palestinian ghetto today.<<
I skip most of your posts, and generally dismiss what I do read, because the unmitigated lies and distortions you, like CripThink, Metteyya, etc., vomit are best ignored.
An instance is your Amir Oren example. His account about preparations for an armored raid into a fortified Pal position, within a residential area, which lasted a few hours and killed four gunmen, said this -
"In order to prepare properly for the next campaign, one of the Israeli officers in the territories said not long ago, it's justified and in fact essential to learn from every possible source. If the mission will be to seize a densely populated refugee camp, or take over the casbah in Nablus, and if the commander's obligation is to try to execute the mission without casualties on either side, then he must first analyze and internalize the lessons of earlier battles - even, however shocking it may sound, even how the German army fought in the Warsaw ghetto."
That IDF study produced the opposite tactic of how the Nazis defeated bunkers in a city. The Germans simply artilleried the entire neighborhood and then sent in sapers to dynamite every building still standing. I.e., they blew up all the residences with all their thousands of men, women and children, burying the fortified basements, and followed up with flame throwers. A dozen escaped through a sewer.
Whereas, as Oren notes, the IDF studied how to neutralize bunkers within residential housing while avoiding or limiting "casualties on either side".
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 3:10pm
CripThink at 10:46pm attributed this to Netanyahu:
>> "Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China ..." <<
CripThink also claimed, Israel Radio reported Sharon saying, the US is in America's pocket. Complete inventions.
His friend Mystic 7 says, Masada agents, involved in 9/11, danced as the Twin towers burned.
His other friend, One Vote has a post which maintains: it was the Jews who declared war on Hitler, not the other way around.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 3:19pm
Posted by mamatata at 03/12/2009 @ 2:16pm
It is NOT demagoguery to simply point out the obvious attempts by AIPAC to control the intelligence Obama uses to make serious policy decisions by trying to influence who gets appointed to important posts in the US intelligence community.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/12/2009 @ 3:27pm
Posted by Thrawn at 03/12/2009 @ 2:52pm
While it is true that AIPAC does not get its way all of the time, the issue in this article is its efforts to control US intelligence by influencing who gets appointed to important intelligence posts.
Given the sorry track record of Israeli intelligence that led to the invasion of Iraq, we ALL should be concerned about Israeili operatives trying to influence US intelligence gathering and analysis.
You did NOT respond to my posts above in which I cite AIPAC documents that clearly used bogus intelligence to try to influence Congress to invade Iraq.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/12/2009 @ 3:30pm
Metteyya on 03/11 @ 10:27pm -
Metteyya offers an AIPAC report describing Israel strenuously preparing against an Iraqi WMD attack, 2 months before we invaded.
His earlier 10:08pm post argued, AIPAC was "spreading phony [WMD] intelligence that tricked us into doing "their" will."
Which was it? Either they knew the WMD alarms were phony, or they sincerely feared an WMD attack.
If the latter holds than why should a pro Israel organization not spread the alarm and ask for US help? That is the point of operating a lobby.
Of course the Israelis sincerely believed Saddam retained WMD and would target them. He had threatened "to bathe half of Israel in a sheet of flame." All the intelligence services, including those of UK, Russia, Italy, France, ect., were convinced that Iraqi retained WMD, even Hans Blix.
Very real WMD had in fact been in Iraq's arsenal. Unknown was: that Saddam had had them destroyed so that the inspectors would not find them, but secretely, so as to keep everyone afraid of him.
As a result the Israelis spent $100 million on precautions, including gas masks for all their people.
In short, fear of Saddam's WMD was real. So too his support of terrorists and his $25,000 martyr bonuses.
Had Bush ignored that threat, he would have deserved impeachment. He was obliged to heed the spy agencies unanimous warnings, to consider the worst scenario.
A president's highest duty is to protect the US and her interests. Though those warnings proved erroneous, to have neglected them would have been irresponsible to the point of treason.
A policeman who ignores a gun leveled at a citizen because he is not sure it is loaded, loses his badge, or certainly should, EVEN IF it is later established, the gun was empty.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 3:33pm
>>>I skip most of your posts, and generally dismiss what I do read, because the unmitigated lies and distortions you, like CripThink, Metteyya, etc., vomit are best ignored.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 3:10pm<<<
Do you care to provide "specific vomit" from me that you believe is untruthful?
I am very willing and able to respond to any specific issue you have with any of my comments with facts.
General conclusory statements without any specific facts that you find objectionable are the kind of statements that will be ignored.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/12/2009 @ 3:36pm
Metteyya at 03/12/2009 @ 3:36pm
>>Do you care to provide "specific vomit" from me that you believe is untruthful? <<
I did at 3:33.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 3:39pm
>>>Very real WMD had in fact been in Iraq's arsenal. Unknown was: that Saddam had had them destroyed so that the inspectors would not find them, but secretely, so as to keep everyone afraid of him.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 3:33pm<<<
If you really believe this Hugo, then you are admitting that Israeli intelligence was FLAWED!
All Obama is saying is if their intelligence was flawed, then let's not RELY on people they want to appoint in our intelligence community!
We simply cannot afford another ill-advised war.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/12/2009 @ 3:40pm
ABOUT DARFUR
No, The Nation has not once written about Darfur, in a way that matters. Complaining about the Chinese oil deals does not count.
What counts is taking the Arab League to task for not demanding that Sudan, its member state, for which it has responsibility, stop its genocide in Darfur and its dishonor of the Arabs and Islam.
The Nation, while it has endless time and space to bewail the the fate of 600,000 Palestinian farmers displaced 60 years ago in the course of a war the Arabs started, it is mum about two million black farmers who did nothing to cause much less deserve being ethnically cleansed by Arabs, and having over 200,000 murdered by Arabs, nevermind the countless rapes.
Nowhere has The Nation, addressed this issue. Because it is cowardly, rotten to the bone, and left fascist.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 3:44pm
Assuming all the Anti Israel bias attributed to Chas Freemen is well-founded; should Americans, for the sake of balance, be concerned about the appointment of many Israeli citizens to high places in our government. An example of grave concern would be the newly appointed White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel. Mr. Emanuel is an Israeli Citizen and the son of an Israeli terrorist, ex member of the Stern Gang. Mr. Emanuel left his job in the US in 1991 and went back to Israel to serve in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF). It is worthy to note that Rahm Emanuel has never served in the US armed Forces. Rahm's Father, Benjamin Emanuel, was quoted by the Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv:
"Obviously he'll influence the president to be pro-Israel. Why wouldn't he? What is he, an Arab? He's not going to be mopping floors at the White House," the elder Mr. Emanuel told the Israeli daily Ma'ariv,
The same Freeman's critics will consider it grave heresy and borders on Anti-Semitism to merely doubt the loyalty and bias judgment of Rahm Emanuel when it comes to the Middle East.
Posted by CripThink at 03/12/2009 @ 3:46pm
His other friend, One Vote has a post which maintains: it was the Jews who declared war on Hitler, not the other way around.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 3:19pm
Hugo.....it was a Jewish group that claimed that Jews declared war on Hitler first - "they fired the first shot".......nice try.
By the way do you have any factual proof of the radio broadcast of Sharon as being false other than it being denied. You are a little short on citation for your opinions, but that doesn't surprise me, as you likely have none.
Posted by OneVote at 03/12/2009 @ 3:52pm
Posted by CripThink at 03/12/2009 @ 3:46pm
You can be "pro-Israel" in that you support Israel's right to exist in secure borders, but still question the activities of their lobby in Washington that undermine the accuracy of US intelligence.
You can also be "pro-Israel" as defined above, but be pro-Palestinian as well, in that, like Israel, you support the Palestinians right to exist in its own state in secure borders.
The two are NOT mutually exclusive, but Israel's lobby (AIPAC) treats the two as mutually exclusive.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/12/2009 @ 3:58pm
Metteyya at 03/12 @ 3:40pm wrote -
>> If you really believe this Hugo, then you are admitting that Israeli intelligence was FLAWED! <<
Of course I believe that.
The Israelis conducted an extensive review of that intelligence failure and concluded, not that it was "FLAWED", but that the Mossad, like all the other intelligence services was wrong.
But it issued no reprimands and demanded no real changes in the running of Mossad, because they did not find the operation, FLAWED.
Mossad came up with the most reasonable and responsible analysis of the situation. Having added up all the materiel delivered to Iraq over 20 years, and after subtracting what Saddam had expended in war, and what the inspectors had destroyed, they still found Iraq in possession of enough Scuds and toxic chemicals for a sizeable WMD arsenal. Concluding, that he was hiding those weapons and munitions was not flawed thinking, it was sensible. It proved wrong because no one anticipated that that genius would destroy his muscles in secret, while still seeming to flex them in public.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 4:02pm
Posted by CripThink at 03/12/2009 @ 3:46pm | ignore this person | warn this person
See:
http://www.viewzone.com/dualcitizen.html
US/Israeli dual citizens in our government is just unbelievable. We are in fact ruled by Washington/Tel Aviv.
Check out the exemption that pertains to Israel only as the article cited above.
The 1940 Nationality Act
Section 401 (e) of the 1940 Nationality Act provides that a U.S. citizen, whether by birth or naturalization, "shall lose his [U.S.] nationality by...voting in a political election in a foreign state."
Posted by OneVote at 03/12/2009 @ 4:11pm
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 4:02pm
Without getting into the details of Mossad operatives inside of Iraq that "knew" the weapons were destroyed, let's assume you are correct - Mossad was wrong.
If you believe that, then why wouldn't it be prudent for Obama to not RELY on Israeli intelligence going forward?
And if you believe this is prudent, why would it not also be prudent to resist key appointments suggested by the Israeli lobby to posts in the US intelligence community?
The whole point of this article, and the central reason why I am upset about the Freeman thing (can't speak for others), is that Obama needs ACCURATE INTELLIGENCE, and Freeman was someone who would have provided accurate intelligence but was nixed by the Israeli lobby.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/12/2009 @ 4:12pm
OneVote at 03/12 @ 3:52pm
>> it was a Jewish group that claimed that Jews declared war on Hitler first - "they fired the first shot".......nice try. <<
It was the Nazis who in the 1933 said, because the Jews refused to buy German goods after Hitler had come to power, they were declaring war against The Reich and that justified the anti-Jewish legislation and persecutions that followed. And you repeat that Nazi propaganda line.
You ask:
>> do you have any factual proof of the radio broadcast of Sharon as being false other than it being denied. You are a little short on citation for your opinions, but that doesn't surprise me, as you likely have none.<<
Understand, you must prove the existence of what you affirm, I don't have to prove it does not exist.
But initially The Voice of Israel Radio was supposed to have cited that quote as part of a Sharon/Peres conversation during a specific cabinet meeting. Sharon was supposed to have turned to Peres and to have said, "you always claim we have Israel in our pocket..." It turned out that on the date attributed to that conversation, there was no cabinet meeting.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 4:20pm
Metteyya at 03/12/2009 @ 4:12pm
Your post is gibberish.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 4:22pm
>>>Your post is gibberish.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 4:22pm<<<
Gibberish?
The need for ACCURATE INTELLIGENCE in the aftermath of an illegal invasion of another country is NOT gibberish!
The need to resist appointments to key post in our intelligence community suggested by the Israeli lobby that was responsible for influencing Congress with false intelligence on Iraq is NOT gibberish!
We simply cannot afford another ill-advised war, and one of the KEYS to preventing this from happening is cleaning up our intelligence community so that it is free from the influence of foreign lobbies, and can provide accurate intelligence to the President.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/12/2009 @ 4:33pm
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 4:20pm | ignore this person | warn this person
So we are suppose to believe the word of a convicted war criminal, whose son also spent time in jail? I think this a public relations cover up.
Lodge your WWII complaint against the Jewish Group who makes such claims - who has also received numerous endorsements by noted rabbis.
Posted by OneVote at 03/12/2009 @ 4:40pm
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 3:10pm
You read everything I post, stop lying (I know its hard but you can at least do something heretofore you have not ... and try). In any case I will, bite.
At the gates of Yassergrad by By Amir Oren, was an egg or two, perhaps even the flour, but not the cake ...
http://tinyurl.com/9jrzn8
I notice you didn't reference the Ra'anan Gissen comments.
Nor as anyone who had a T.V. and watched, saw ... the annihilation of Palestinian infrastructure, both governing and civilian.
Also at the time 200 reserve soldiers and officers from the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) were circulating a powerful letter declaring their refusal to serve in the Israeli occupied territories. The soldiers charged that they "were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people.... We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country...."
So, if you will, as only the choir you hope to preach to (it gets smaller daily ... doubtless) will believe you out of hand ... what other "lies" have I told? As I have made it a point to go direct to sources, or state that it is merely my opinion, you will prove me a liar on other fronts-issues, or reveal yourself to be full of shit.
Or if the above is the best you can do, then fuck you anyway.
Have a nice day.
Posted by V at 03/12/2009 @ 4:42pm
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/12/2009 @ 4:20pm | ignore this person | warn this person
By the way...the quote from Sharon is as follows:
Ariel Sharon: "We control America". May 25, 2007 by December
Ariel Sharon:
"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?t=4742
Posted by OneVote at 03/12/2009 @ 4:47pm
P.S. (date of quote):
Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001.
Posted by OneVote at 03/12/2009 @ 4:48pm
The Israel Lobby is terrified that the world will finally realize its monumental crime on 9/11.It forgets that the world already knows.It's the boy crying wolf all the time.Propaganda only works so far.
Posted by mystic7 at 03/12/2009 @ 4:50pm
<i>Posted by mystic7 at 03/12/2009 @ 4:50pm </i>
Conspiracy theories? Hooray! Warrants, justifications? Don't need 'em!
<i>Posted by OneVote at 03/12/2009 @ 4:47pm </i>
Hmm...that doesn't sound fraudulent at all...
Also, the claim is false; see the editorial I gave that completely rips it apart by showing multiple major issues on which the "invincible Lobby" has apparently been insufficient.
<i>Posted by Metteyya at 03/12/2009 @ 4:33pm </i>
You're right, it's not gibberish, it's just a bad argument. First off, the structure of the argument is literally "they got something wrong, therefore we should never rely on them ever again." That's a terrible standard since all intelligence agencies will have flaws and occasionally get things wrong. Second, even if this is true, so what? We probably shouldn't bank everything on Israeli intelligence; why shouldn't they be able to express legitimate concerns that they have? Moreover, why shouldn't people who independently don't want Israel destroyed be able to voice concerns that they have?
<i>Posted by OneVote at 03/12/2009 @ 3:52pm </i>
On the Hitler thing...which I thought we'd gotten rid of but apparently not...you keep conveniently leaving out the fact that Hitler rose to power on a wave of "let's get the Jews." Again, see analogy to South African divestment.
As far as the broadcast goes...I've already shown why the claim in it is simply wrong. You can't go "Sharon said this...now prove he didn't!" When you're making allegations, YOU have the burden of proof, just as Hugo pointed out.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/12/2009 @ 5:24pm
Hugo, take note that the link that these anti-semites provided comes ultimately from a "Palestinian" source-besides all the Aryan Nation links.
Isn't it interesting that they cite an Israeli radio program yet cannot provide any transcript or audio that backs up this falsehood.
We are experiencing more and more of these Anti-Semites who seem to be coming out of their dark roach holes looking for acceptance of their hatred of Jews.
It is a wonderful thing that the Nation blogs are as open as they are. But as is the case with freedom, it means that freedom hating scum also have the right to a voice.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/12/2009 @ 5:38pm
>>>You're right, it's not gibberish, it's just a bad argument. First off, the structure of the argument is literally "they got something wrong, therefore we should never rely on them ever again." That's a terrible standard since all intelligence agencies will have flaws and occasionally get things wrong. Second, even if this is true, so what? We probably shouldn't bank everything on Israeli intelligence; why shouldn't they be able to express legitimate concerns that they have? Moreover, why shouldn't people who independently don't want Israel destroyed be able to voice concerns that they have?
Posted by Thrawn at 03/12/2009 @ 5:24pm<<<
It wasn't just an innocent mistake, Thrawn, IT WAS A "MONUMENTAL" TRILLION DOLLAR MISTAKE that just "happened" to coincide with the Israeli government and their US lobby's desire to have the US invade Iraq.
You are correct, this does NOT mean that you shouldn't listen to Mossad ever again, but to suggest as some at AIPAC have that Israeli intelligence is the best in the world and should be relied on more than our own intelligence is where I think there is disagreement.
The mere fact that they got it so wrong on such an important question with enormous international legal and diplomatic implications, serious loss of 10s of thousands of lives, and trillions of dollars in US taxpayer money, makes it simply good management to resist efforts by this same Israeli lobby to appoint people in our intelligence community that would be less inclined to question Israeli intelligence.
Posted by Metteyya at 03/12/2009 @ 6:17pm
now prove he didn't!" When you're making allegations, YOU have the burden of proof, just as Hugo pointed out. Posted by Thrawn at 03/12/2009 @ 5:24pm
Thrawn,
I posted the original Sharon's broadcast. Let me list it again:
"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." --Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (speaking to Shimon Peres, as reported on Israel Radio [in Hebrew, Kol Yisrael], 3 October 2001)
This is a well referenced citation and can't be disputed just because you don't like the content. Why don't you or Hugo call the Israeli original broadcaster (Kol Yisrael) to confirm the accuracy of the broadcast. It is piece of cake for Hugo; he speaks Hebrew fluently. Sharon statement is not anything new; every politician in Washington knows that the Israeli Lobby control and runs our political establishment; Sharon was merely confirming the obvious.
Israel also knew about the planned attack on our Marines in Lebanon in 1983 and refused to pass on the information to us. If you want more information and confirmation of this story, you may Read: By Way of Deception, the Making of a Mossad Officer, By the Ex Israeli Mossad Officer Victor Ostrovsky; Published by Wilshire Press. Ostrovsky is currently hiding in Canada out of fear of reprisal by the Mossad.
I truly understand why guys like you and Hugo_Pirovano refuse to believe such reports; these stories are part of the inconvenience truth about Israel betrayal of America. The Israeli Lobby wishes to shove such revealing information under the rug for good.
Posted by CripThink at 03/12/2009 @ 6:23pm
BTW, Larry...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Neanderthal_child.jpg
How is it THIS is a "soulless hominid"...
but a 20 cell blastocyst is a "baby"?
Posted by Mask at 03/12/2009 @ 6:23pm
But as is the case with freedom, it means that freedom hating scum also have the right to a voice. Posted by antisocialist at 03/12/2009 @ 5:38pm
Anti-Social Rasputin:
You better stick to your black magic rituals you Monk. I am grateful that I don't owe my freedom to thug like you. What freedom are bragging about you black robe? The counterfeit version of your Bill of Rights was published in 3000 B.C; you don't belong to the 21st Century.
Posted by CripThink at 03/12/2009 @ 6:43pm
How is it THIS is a "soulless hominid"...
but a 20 cell blastocyst is a "baby"?
Posted by Mask at 03/12/2009 @ 6:23pm
How many times would you like me to repeat my answer. Even your beloved evolutionists now agree because of the DNA that neanderthals were not related to mankind.
Just as other animals do not have souls, neither do neanderthals.
If you want to argue with the scientists, go argue with them.
Posted by antisocialist at 03/12/2009 @ 7:11pm
'On March 27, 1933 the planned protest at Madison Square Garden was attended by 40,000 protestors (New York Daily News headlines: "40,000 Roar Protest Here Against Hitler").
Similar rallies and protest marches were also held in other cities. The intensity of the Jewish campaign against Germany was such that the Hitler government vowed that if the campaign did not stop there would be a one-day boycott in Germany of Jewish-owned stores.
Hitler's March 28, 1933 speech ordering a boycott against Jewish stores and goods was in direct response to the declaration of war on Germany by the worldwide Jewish leadership.
That same spring of 1933 there began a period of private cooperation between the German government and the Zionist movement in Germany and worldwide to increase the flow of German-Jewish immigrants and capital to Palestine.
Growing anti-Semitism in Germany and by the German government in response to the boycott played into the hands of the Zionist leaders. Prior to the escalation of anti-Semitism as a result of the boycott the majority of German Jews had little sympathy for the Zionist cause of promoting the immigration of world Jewry to Palestine. Making the situation in Germany as uncomfortable for the Jews as possible, in cooperation with German National Socialism, was part of the Zionist plan to achieve their goal of populating Palestine with a Jewish majority.
"For all intents and purposes, the National Socialist government was the best thing to happen to Zionism in its history, for it "proved" to many Jews that Europeans were irredeemably anti-Jewish and that Palestine was the only answer: Zionism came to represent the overwhelming mjaority of Jews solely by trickery and cooperation with Adolf Hitler." [1]'
Posted by OneVote at 03/12/2009 @ 9:11pm
Cite to above:
Excerpt:
The Zionist War on Nazi Germany,
JewsAgainstZionism.com
Posted by OneVote at 03/12/2009 @ 9:14pm
On the Hitler thing...which I thought we'd gotten rid of but apparently not...you keep conveniently leaving out the fact that Hitler rose to power on a wave of "let's get the Jews." Again, see analogy to South African divestment.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/12/2009 @ 5:24pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Well....a major Jewish group will differ with you Thrawn - sorry this doesn't quite fit into your view of Holocaust.
As to Sharon...already have proved it. It was quoted in 2001, and reputable websites still carry the quote in 2009. If you boys did not say it, I find unbelievable that it would still be quoted on reputable websites. Further, what Sharon said is the truth isn't it.
Posted by OneVote at 03/12/2009 @ 9:19pm
Posted by antisocialist at 03/12/2009 @ 7:11pm
No, they agree that Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals couldn't inter-breed.
Again, look at that picture and tell me that child is a "soulless hominid"....
but you get worked into a tizzy over a 20 cell blastocyst being a "baby".
(BTW, to any that care, who won't be much...too fascinating learning that "Nazis created Israel" or whatever bizarre Ahmadinejad thing you have going....
the point of Larry's sub-classification of the Neanderthals is simple. It allows him his "10,000 BCE Garden of Eden" and Adam & Eve Cro-Magnon to be the first "real humans" on the planet...
which fits nicely with a revised "Bishop Ussur" view of history.
Throw in the poor Neanderthals, Java Man, Peiking Man, etc. as relatives and not some kind of "anthropoidal freaks" or demon-spawn...and the time-line is ruined.
Ergo that poor child is some souless (since it predates "Adam") "homonid animal"....while cellular clusters are "real human babies".)
Posted by Mask at 03/12/2009 @ 10:14pm
<i>Posted by OneVote at 03/12/2009 @ 9:19pm </i>
I won't deal with the Sharon thing because it's just going to be a stalemate. Instead, I'll engage the important point, which is the shockingly bad argument you insist on continuing to make.
Your argument is awful, and the fact that a Jewish group happens to say otherwise is not an argument, much less proof.
Quite frankly, the claim is a pack of lies. Are you actually contending that Hitler's response to the German Jewish population was because of the widespread resentment against him by the international Jewish community? Seriously? To even suggest this reveals a complete lack of understanding of the context of antisemitism within Germany, much less across Europe.
Here's the fatal flaw, the tiny little question you conveniently forget to ask: why did the Jewish population protest Hitler to begin with? Could it have had anything to do with the fact that "Jews are evil" was his entire platform?
Oh, and why we're at it, why was Hitler sending Jews to Palestine, again? That's right, to get them out of Germany. Why? Because a great deal of his efforts were focused on finding a "final solution" to the Jewish question. An early wave of that thought was to just remove all Jews from Germany. Later on, though, he and many of the leadership became convinced that this just wasn't going to cut it, and he would have to kill them all.
To suggest that Hitler did what he did against the Jewish population because they provoked him is a disturbing combination of bad economic analysis and worse history, easily adaptable to apologize for one of the worst regimes in all of human history.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/12/2009 @ 11:01pm
By the way, it's worth noting that the devastating indict of the "all-powerful Israel Lobby" hypothesis out of the Washington Post has yet to be responded to.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/12/2009 @ 11:11pm
Christopher Ketcham, AlterNet:
Israel runs one of the most aggressive and damaging espionage networks targeting the U.S., yet public discussion about it is almost nil. http://www.alternet.org
"Whether it's a Democratic or Republican administration, you don't bad-mouth Israel if you want to get ahead," says former CIA counterterrorism officer Philip Giraldi. "Most of the people in the agency were very concerned about Israeli espionage and Israeli actions against U.S. interests. Everybody was aware of it. Everybody hated it. But they wouldn't get promoted if they spoke out. Israel has a privileged position and that's the way things are. It's crazy. And everybody knows it's crazy."
http://www.antiwar.com/mcgovern/?articleid=14389
America is a mere colony for a tiny State called Israel. Israel extorts our money, bribes and intimidates our Congress and feeds our helpless public its trashy propaganda. The Freeman fiasco has shown our president as weak, helpless man with very limited options when it comes to confronting the powerful Israeli lobby.
Posted by CripThink at 03/13/2009 @ 12:34am
<i>Posted by CripThink at 03/13/2009 @ 12:34am </i>
Hardly. Telling that there's STILL no response to the editorial. Colony indeed.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/13/2009 @ 01:25am
<<But let's consider the ambassador's broader charge: He describes "an inability of the American public to discuss, or the government to consider, any option for U.S. policies in the Middle East opposed by the ruling faction in Israeli politics." That will certainly be news to Israel's "ruling faction," which in the past few years alone has seen the U.S. government promote a Palestinian election that it opposed; refuse it weapons it might have used for an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities; and adopt a policy of direct negotiations with a regime that denies the Holocaust and that promises to wipe Israel off the map. Two Israeli governments have been forced from office since the early 1990s after open clashes with Washington over matters such as settlement construction in the occupied territories.>>
The "ruling faction" in Israel is responsible for the illegal settlements on Palestinian land, which has been the key stumbling block in reaching an end to the conflict. This faction insists on blockading even humanitarian assistance to Gaza and the severely limiting the right to travel.
This faction is also chiefly responsible for creating a split in the former PLO with Hamas and Fatah, in a divide and conquer strategy that attempts to pit these two groups against each other to deflect attention away from their oppressive actions.
So the question is NOT whether this right-wing faction that governs Israel gets its way all the time with the US, the question is whether the US can "consistently" act in its own national interest when those interests diverge from that of the Israeli right wing?
As long as members of Congress are afraid of being targeted in the next election cycle by Israeli lobby, the answer to this question is, NO!
Posted by Metteyya at 03/13/2009 @ 06:10am
<i>Posted by Metteyya at 03/13/2009 @ 06:10am </i>
I don't really understand the difference between those two. There are really only three kinds of policies that relate to Israel:
1) Those where US and Israeli interests align
2) Those where US and Israeli interests conflict
3) Those where US and Israeli interests are neither in communion nor in conflict
"The Lobby" wouldn't really matter much for (1), I think that's clear, and it might matter for (2). A clear test, however, is for (3), because a lobby is clearly not even remotely all-powerful if it can't work to bring about outcomes that are important to it when those outcomes wouldn't otherwise take place. The standard is therefore whether, when the US government takes one position and the Israeli right-wing takes a different one, and this is on an important issue, who wins. For your position to hold, it should be "the Lobby" winning. The point of the editorial is: the conspiracy theory is false (or at least way overstated) because the reality is not nearly that simple. Iron control? Not even close.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/13/2009 @ 07:36am
To suggest that Hitler did what he did against the Jewish population because they provoked him is a disturbing combination of bad economic analysis and worse history, easily adaptable to apologize for one of the worst regimes in all of human history.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/12/2009 @ 11:01pm
You are forgetting the point Thrawn.
You claim that you can't make analogies to what is happening in Israel vis a vis the Palestinians, and I claim that you can. Israel claims that Palestinians provoke it, thus justifying its disproportionate nationalistic military and social actions. Hitler did the same.
I have pointed out to you that there were Jewish provocations of Hitler....I don't deny that those provocations were righteous. Why don't you grant the Palestinians the same objectivity?
Both Holocaust and Palestinian genocide and displacement are deplorable, and both have examples in history such as Turkish Armenians. It is hypocritical of you to deny this, but you seem to want to foster the myth that Israel has a higher moral ground, and is not perpetuating the same nationalistic and intolerant motivations that have driven evil since the dawn of human collective or social existence. The facts just don't support the myth.
Posted by OneVote at 03/13/2009 @ 11:48am
<i>Posted by OneVote at 03/13/2009 @ 11:48am </i>
While there are moral grounds for criticizing what Israel has done, I don't think the analogy works at all.
1) The genocide part. Applies to Nazi Germany...clearly does not apply to Israel's actions.
2) Claiming provocation isn't enough; actual provocation is relevant. Thus, it's not enough to say "both claimed provocation." The question is: were they provoked? Was the Israeli government provoked? Well, at the outset, I think the answer is clearly yes; Israel was attacked once and had massive numbers of tanks on its border a few years after. So do they have reasonable fears of destruction by entities that have sought it before? Yes. Should they have done what they did to civilians, particularly recently? Not a chance.
Can Hitler legitimately claim provocation? No. That seems like a pretty easy answer. Everyone who's going on the offensive claims provocation; the question is whether their claim is legitimate. Early on, Israel's claim clearly was, unambiguously. Can Palestinian innocents also claim provocation, particularly in the status quo? Sure they can; I won't challenge that in the least. I'm just saying that this is a very complex situation.
Finally, and the core of my whole position, is that the "all-powerful Israel Lobby hypothesis" is overblown at best and false at worst.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/13/2009 @ 3:14pm
OneVote at 03/13/2009 @ 11:48am wrote:
>>Israel claims that Palestinians provoke it, thus justifying its disproportionate nationalistic military and social actions. Hitler did the same. . . Both Holocaust and Palestinian genocide and displacement are deplorable <<
The illogic, the dishonesty on these boards, the massive contempt for the discernment of The Nation audience, is astonishing.
The stupidity of such posters; where else is there such transparent bigotry and deceit expectorated under the mask of righteous indignation?
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/13/2009 @ 3:20pm
Finally, and the core of my whole position, is that the "all-powerful Israel Lobby hypothesis" is overblown at best and false at worst.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/13/2009 @ 3:14pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Which begs the question of why they chose to character assassinate Freeman covertly?
So - you are right and the perception of a majority of Americans who pay attention are wrong on AIPAC's influence?
I don't think so, but I respect your right to your opinion, and your gruding acknowledgment that at least some of Israel's actions are worthy of criticism.
Posted by OneVote at 03/13/2009 @ 4:04pm
The stupidity of such posters; where else is there such transparent bigotry and deceit expectorated under the mask of righteous indignation?
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 03/13/2009 @ 3:20pm | ignore this person | warn this person
'Another Jew Against Zionism 3-10-9
Dear Jeff,
Many of us Jews are reading your website very often these days. We feel very sad that the Zionists, once again, destroyed our civilization.
The main problem is not the Zionists...but us - the simple, poor Jews - who still do not realize the Zionist trap we fell into. Only about 3% of Jews are hardcore, rabid Zioniists...who highjacked our religion and leadership.
To my fellow Jews: you must watch: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
To illustrate it, I am enclosing a LIST OF QUOTATIONS I just received from my family in Israel. It shocked me, it may shock some of your readers, too.
Sincerely,
Tsvi Cohen Florida USA '
Source: rense.com
Jews and Gentiles together will put a stop to you Hugo.
Posted by OneVote at 03/13/2009 @ 4:10pm
<i>Posted by OneVote at 03/13/2009 @ 4:04pm</i>
Some interesting irony worth noting...
First this:
<<Which begs the question of why they chose to character assassinate Freeman covertly?>>
And then this:
<<So - you are right and the perception of a majority of Americans who pay attention are wrong on AIPAC's influence?>>
A couple of ironies here on the "question-begging." First, the claim that "they" (whoever "they" refers to; who is it, precisely?) assassinated Freeman's character and bear unique responsibility for his downfall is itself question-beggining. Second, the claim that the "majority of Americans who pay attention" embrace this conspiracy theory is itself a GIGANTIC assertion, and thus the argument that relies on it begs the question.
In short, your entire response rests on two huge assertions. It's not enough to defend them by saying "anyone who's paying attention knows AIPAC runs everything," both because I've already clearly falsified that claim (with STILL no response) AND because the argument would be structurally invalid by virtue of being circular.
And two final brief notes, in part to other posters:
1) Death tolls don't tell the whole story, not when people have 15 seconds to huddle in bomb shelters every time the siren goes off signaling a Hamas rocket approach.
2) Not only have extremely high causalty reports been at least modified if not disproven completely, we should be more generally wary of reports that for structural reasons are bound to incline more to Hamas and are likely to be based on split-second statements rather than vigorous fact-finding.
Posted by Thrawn at 03/15/2009 @ 11:16pm