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RedditThe headlines are scary. "Iran ready to build nuclear weapon, analysts say," screams CNN. "Iran Has More Enriched Uranium Than Thought," shouts the New York Times. "Iran has enough uranium to make bomb," proclaims the Jerusalem Post.
Don't believe any of this nonsense.
What Iran has is one ton or so of low-enriched uranium. You can't build a bomb with that. To do so, Iran would first have to re-enrich all of it to weapons-grade uranium, which it isn't doing. Right now that uranium is under lock and key, watched over by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). In order to enrich it, Iran would have to do so right in front of the inspectors, who'd tell us all about it, or kick the inspectors out and do it secretly. Either way, (a) we'd know about it, and (b) it would still take Iran a long time, many months, if not a year or two, and that's assuming that they do it right and that the machines don't break down.
So President Obama can relax.
I'm not one of those Pollyannas who think that the Iranians are all innocent. In my view, the mullahs who run Iran want a bomb. Some analysts believe that they're pushing ahead as quickly as they can to get there, while others think that what Iran wants is simply a "Japan-like" capability to assemble a bomb when and if the Iranian military thinks its needed. In any case, however, Iran isn't there yet, and they haven't taken the necessary next step, namely, to enrich the fuel to weapons-grade. (Not only that, but we can't be sure that Iran actually knows how to make a bomb, even if has the enriched uranium, nor -- despite its recent missile and satellite launches -- does it have the capability to deliver a weapon.)
Buried in the Times story, but headlined elsewhere, is the news that Mohammad ElBaradei, the IAEA chief, says that surprisingly Iran has slowed, not accelerated, its program of enrichment lately, perhaps as a sign to the Obama administration that it wants to talk. ElBaradei called it a "political decision," meaning that it's not a technical slowdown.
Another alarmist piece on Iran showed up this week in the Los Angeles Times, headlined: "U.S. now sees Iran as pursuing nuclear bomb." Now, I don't disagree with the conclusion that Iran is "pursuing" a bomb. But the LA Times story was based on thin reeds. It purported to show that the December, 2007, US National Intelligence Estimate, which concluded that Iran had halted work on its military nuclear program, was being reversed by the Obama administration. Here's the lede:
"Little more than a year after U.S. spy agencies concluded that Iran had halted work on a nuclear weapon, the Obama administration has made it clear that it believes there is no question that Tehran is seeking the bomb."
That's utterly bogus. The evidence the newspaper cites has nothing, repeat nothing, to do with any new NIE or intelligence conclusion. (The Obama intelligence team hasn't even figured out where their parking spaces are yet, never mind reassessing the Iranian nuclear effort.) What the article cites, instead, is (1) a misstatement by Obama, during a news conference, in which the president said something about Iran's "development of a nuclear weapon," and then corrected himself, and (2) testimony by Leon Panetta, the utterly unprepared CIA director, at his confirmation hearings, in which poor Leon said the following:
"From all the information I've seen, I think there is no question that they are seeking that capability."
Problem is, Panetta hasn't seen any -- repeat, any -- classified information yet. Now, I attended those hearings, and Panetta was speaking before he became CIA director, and he was speaking about what he's read in the papers, not what he learned from reading secret reports. He's entitled to his opinion, but that's all it is. It certainly has nothing to do with any new conclusion reached by the intelligence community.
The point is, there's plenty to time for Obama to work out a deal with Iran, presumably one that would enlist Iran's help with Iraq and Afghanistan, Hamas and Hezbollah, and other problems, including the nuclear file, as part of a broad arrangement. And it seems certain that Obama understands that it's important to get Russia's help in dealing with Iran, which is why the administration has pledged to "hit the reset button" on relations with Moscow. As John Hughes, a former Reagan administration State Department official, wrote approvingly in the Christian Science Monitor this week:
"All the signs suggest that in return for Russian pressure upon Iran to end its military nuclear program, the Obama White House quid pro quo would abandon the missile defense project the Bush White House had planned to build on Russia's doorstep. ..."Could [Russia] then exert what remains of its considerable influence on Iran to curtail its military nuclear program? Russia has no desire to see Iran become a nuclear weapons-wielding power in the Middle East. But the price must be right before it is ready to spend political capital to prevent that from happening. It remains to be seen whether abrogation of the American antimissile project in Eastern Europe meets that price."
Making a deal with Iran will take lots of intricate diplomacy. That will take hime. Fortunately, Obama has lots of time.
Unless, that is, Bibi Netanyahu does something rash.
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Robert Dreyfuss
A chronicle of America's adventures in foreign policy and national security.
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Mr. Netanyahu is the person to watch in the next 6 months. Though, with Bibi in power, Obama may be able to play 'good cop' in diplomatic efforts with Iran and Hamas. It will be interesting to watch the dynamics. Yet, overall, the US re-emphasis on diplomacy should pay dividends.
If it does, Obama will have a foreign policy victory. I certainly hope the vociferous far right would 'hope' this positive outcome will pass.
Posted by erazma at 02/20/2009 @ 09:51am
Here is the sentence that will be completely ignored by the left when posting to this article
"Now, I don't disagree with the conclusion that Iran is "pursuing" a bomb"
Iran is pursuing having a nuclear weapon. They do have technology information they received from Pakistan for development of a nuclear weapon.
They have been testing new long range missiles capable of carrying a nuclear warhead.
Yet the left will maintain that Iran has only peaceful intentions.
Thankfully, Israel has put Netenyahu in as PM and the world will be safer if and when Israel takes action.
Posted by antisocialist at 02/20/2009 @ 10:09am
"Don't believe any of this nonsense. "
I agree...Iran wants peace...so did Germany...
Do not believe the leaders of those "misunderstood countrys" who say they want to erase Israel, want the 12th,13th, or whatever IMAN to return, that they are willing to martyr 30% of their population for doing the Islamic work of ALLAH, or willing to send 1,000,000 children into mine fields armed only with the security of going to paradise, complete with going away partys for family and friends......
After all, the real problem are with those who run around screaming "we are being threatened"...they are the real loons and the real dangerous ones.....
like Churchill...
Posted by YourJomamma at 02/20/2009 @ 10:13am
It is not serious to say that 'the left' does not believe that Iran is 'persuing a bomb.' The problem I have with your analysis is that you seem to believe that the Iranians are so dumb or crazy as to have the idea that as soon as they get a bomb, they must use it to begin WWIII. This is both right wing scare tactics and paranoia.
After the checks of the cold war were lifted, proliferation inevitably became a major issue and problem. Yet, the basic tenants of MAD still exist. The Iranians know this. And, yes, spare me the inevitable "but they say they will destroy Israel." The problem with this is that even muslim and arab countries will find this idea untenable (not to mention the vast majority of the Iranian public).
Iran is looking for the bargaining power that having a bomb gives a country. It is sad, but true that having nuclear weapons affords governments clout. Yet, those same governments are loath to actually use the weapon. It is used for leverage.
Luckily, the US now has a president capable of creating the conditions and the framework to deal with Iran. At least, unlike the previous administration, Obama will not push Iran toward it's nuclear ambitions with overblown, unreal, and yes immature rhetoric.
Posted by erazma at 02/20/2009 @ 10:46am
"Do not believe the leaders of those "misunderstood countrys" who say they want to erase Israel, want the 12th,13th, or whatever IMAN to return, that they are willing to martyr 30% of their population for doing the Islamic work of ALLAH, or willing to send 1,000,000 children into mine fields armed only with the security of going to paradise, complete with going away partys for family and friends"
Posted by YourJomamma at 02/20/2009 @ 10:13am | ignore this
I want a million dollars, I want a million dollars.... sorry, scratch that... I want a million Euros, I want a million Euros.
Ok, now I've clearly expressed my desire for a large sum of money, should I be taxed immediately on that amount, or should I be taxed on the amount that I currently earn?
There is a difference between reality and rhetoric. The last US President (what was his name again????) called himself a compassionate conservative. His actions went on to demonstrate that he was anything but. Can the chickenhawks that got us into the mess in Iraq based on an overinflated threat please not do the same in Iran.
Posted by audacity at 02/20/2009 @ 10:55am
Yet, the basic tenants of MAD still exist. The Iranians know this. And, yes, spare me the inevitable "but they say they will destroy Israel." The problem with this is that even muslim and arab countries will find this idea untenable (not to mention the vast majority of the Iranian public).
Posted by erazma at 02/20/2009 @ 10:46am
you want to explain how any Muslim countries or even the Iranian people have any power or influence over the Iranian Mullahs?
The Iranian Mullahs have made it clear that they believe that their losses in a nuclear war with Israel are worth it if it rids the world of Israel and it's Jews.
Posted by antisocialist at 02/20/2009 @ 11:11am
Fortunately, Iran is not Germany in terms of it's relative military might; the Iranians are not expansionist. This situation seems to me is more akin to Pakistan/India.
Arab nations have no love lost for Iran. As for what influence these nations or the Iranian people have over the mullahs, it is the understanding that MORE is at stake than 30 percent of the Iranian population. Their lives and the sovereignty of the country would be at stake- not to mention the countries physical existence.
I don't know (nor do you) if the mullahs are willing to destroy their country or not. Yet, I think that a strictly military response by Israel or the US would strengthen the mullahs and hurt Israel's security long term.
Detente with the soviets and eastern, central europe took time and patience. Peoples can defeat dictatorships eventually. This is true in Iran too.
I understand that sometimes it takes military intervention to solve problems. It was right to go into Afganistan, for instance. Yet, I don't see the upside for that type of response in Iran in the near term.
Posted by erazma at 02/20/2009 @ 11:37am
Posted by erazma at 02/20/2009 @ 10:46am | ignore this person | warn this person
good post, but it's pursuing, not persuing
Posted by emile duBois at 02/20/2009 @ 12:00pm
Robert Dreyfuss says on the home page that "..........Obama has plenty of time to work out a deal with Tehran. Unless Bibi flies off the handle......"
Fortunately, Bibi knows that Obama's time would eventually run out as Obama seeks a "deal" with Iran, and all of a sudden "whoops" the terms of the "deal" will be different when Iran does get their bomb.
Due to that, Bibi will not "fly off of the handle".... if necessary, others will be the ones who fly, directed by Bibi (as Israeli Commander-In-Chief), and not off of the handle, either, but to Iran to destroy facilities that would make an Iranian nuke.
So Obama will be upstaged on this, but in private (he will not admit so publically) he will be grateful to Bibi that he won't have to worry anymore about an Iranian nuke.
Posted by sjchermak at 02/20/2009 @ 12:58pm
Warmongers lying again, as always. You want the world to treat Iran as this existential threat, as if they were Hitler Germany. Jomama specifically mentions Iran and Germany together.
To the rest of the world, including most Nation readers, it's the US (and its kid brother Israel), who are the new Nazi Germany. We "feel threatened" by country after country, and attack (and occupy) them against their will. Hitler used the same rhetoric.
Now you want to do it to Iran, but we're not buying it. So AS and JM, stop trying to terrify people who know better. Go back to Free Republic.
Posted by DavidSpero at 02/20/2009 @ 1:02pm
I don't know (nor do you) if the mullahs are willing to destroy their country or not. ....
Posted by erazma at 02/20/2009 @ 11:37am
Read more on the desire of Islamic expansion, the loss and humilation of past glories and the ever belief that ALLAH justifies jihad. Even educated western muslims believe and support jihad, by an alarming number, I believe the average guy in Iran probably wants to be left alone to live his life...as I am sure the average German in the 30s wanted, too.
but others had big desires...those being the people in charge..
Iran may be worse than German expansionists...Iran believes, as does it citizensry, that God is ordaining the destruction of Israel...with religion logic,realistic military after effects and forethought go out the window. Especially if you believe God placed you in the position right now with your finger on the button...so he must want me to use it or he wouldn't have given it to me..for his glory and my jihadistic martyrdom, of course...and don't forget the virgins.
Iran will send the world up in flames someday.
Posted by YourJomamma at 02/20/2009 @ 1:10pm
The idea that the leaders of Iran are irrational players needs proof. If you argue that the Iranian elites have clearly stated that they are ready to see the destruction of Iran its people and its culture for the sake of nuking Israel you should learn Farsi, bring the actual quotes and translate them. Excerpts from western media (who get their cue from MEMRI) or from the Sunni funded Al Jazeera (hardly an objective source on issues Shia) are not really that credible as sources.
Moreover please note:
What one says is often very different from what one does. To assume that simply because they are devout and even fundamentalist the leaders of this Muslim country with a long history want to die in order to serve a most useless task is ludicrous and has no real precedent in Islamic history. I teach Byzantine history and in centuries of wars with the Caliphate the Romans (Byzantines) faced rational thinkers striving to serve ideological but also very rational goals, not crazy ideologues striving for transcendental realities. You will be hard pressed to find an Islamic leader, however devout, who led suicidal war for religious reasons.
Beyond that, why are we not worried that a state which is bound by sheer demography to become fundamentalist-controlled (Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Jews have many more children) already has 200 nukes? How about the idea of Shas in control of the nuclear weapons (and they are not even Ultra-Orthodox).
All this discussion is, however, pointless if you operate with the a priori assumption that you are the reasoned western man fighting the "lunatic" orientals. You should still remember, however, that you work on an assumption, not a fact.
Posted by dimik72 at 02/20/2009 @ 1:41pm
good post, but it's pursuing, not persuing
sorry for the typo...I am aware of this. I also used it's incorrectly. It should be 'its.' But that depends on what the meaning of the word 'its' is.
Posted by erazma at 02/20/2009 @ 1:43pm
Dreyfuss, you are so funny. "In order to enrich it, Iran would have to do so right in front of the inspectors, who'd tell us all about it." I am curious, what on earth would Iran have to worry about? You guys would only deny that it was true or wring you hands - that is about point your backbone turns to jello. They would have to set off a nuke and you would still say it was Israel who did it - anyone but Iran.
Posted by pyeatte at 02/20/2009 @ 2:12pm
Clearly, no one wants Iran to have a nuclear weapon. But I think we have to put this situation in context. There is a curious fact little known to most outside of Congress and Iran: the same folks that lied us into Iraq generated a similar body of "evidence" against Iran. Furthermore, the material was produced at approximately the same time. (Perhaps we got a price break if we bought propaganda in bulk?) If I were Iran and was faced with a body of propaganda that indicated that radical far-right elements were hell-bent to go to war with me, I might be a tad inclined to try and get a nuke myself (and keep extremists in power out of fear). Bottom line: I think we should all wish Secretary Clinton luck. She's going to need it.
Posted by Infokronea at 02/20/2009 @ 2:13pm
Beyond that, why are we not worried that a state which is bound by sheer demography to become fundamentalist-controlled (Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Jews have many more children) already has 200 nukes? How about the idea of Shas in control of the nuclear weapons (and they are not even Ultra-Orthodox).
All this discussion is, however, pointless if you operate with the a priori assumption that you are the reasoned western man fighting the "lunatic" orientals. You should still remember, however, that you work on an assumption, not a fact.
Posted by dimik72 at 02/20/2009 @ 1:41pm
Ah, I didn't think it would take very long for the truth to come out. We have another anti-semite onboard.
The real problem are those nasty jews who occupy less than 1% of the ME. According to our Byzantine prof, these nasty jews are busy prolifically spitting out children and can't wait to use nuclear weapons against peaceful Muslims.
A serious question apart from Iran;
Which side of the debate do you fall-did the decline of science, economic mastery, and culture in the Byzantine Empire come from moral decay or accumulated effect of the Arab invasions?
Posted by antisocialist at 02/20/2009 @ 2:51pm
I don't think Israel will be directly attacked by Iran, unless Israel launches a preemptive strike against them. Israel will face harassing fire from rockets and mortars now and in any future conflict. Since the firing began in 2000 until the Gaza operation, nineteen people were killed by rockets and another eighteen by mortar shells. They have lost more people in a single terrorists attack than all those years of rockets and mortars. However, terrorism effects a limited number of people in a single event. The rockets and mortars disrupt the lives of the general population over a long period of time and are therefore more effective. It will not stop even if they eliminate Hamas, because other organizations have and will imitate them. A diplomatic solution is the only option.
Posted by P. J. Casey at 02/20/2009 @ 3:00pm
'The nuclear program of Iran was launched in the 1950s with the help of the United States as part of the Atoms for Peace program.[1] The support, encouragement and participation of the United States and Western European governments in Iran's nuclear program continued until the 1979 Islamic revolution that toppled the Shah of Iran.[2]'
'1950s and 60s
The foundations for Iran's nuclear program were laid after a 1953, CIA-supported coup deposed democratically-elected Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh and brought Shah (King) Mohammad Reza Pahlavi to power.[13]
A civil nuclear co-operation program was established under the U.S. Atoms for Peace program. In 1967, the Tehran Nuclear Research Center (TNRC) was established, run by the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran (AEOI). The TNRC was equipped with a U.S.-supplied, 5-megawatt nuclear research reactor, which became operational in 1967 and was fueled by highly enriched uranium.[14] Iran signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) in 1968 and ratified it in 1970. With the establishment of Iran's atomic agency and the NPT in place, the Shah approved plans to construct, with U.S. help, up to 23 nuclear power stations by the year 2000.'
Source: Wikipedia
Posted by OneVote at 02/20/2009 @ 3:37pm
Posted by P. J. Casey at 02/20/2009 @ 3:00pm: "I don't think Israel will be directly attacked by Iran". Well the whack-job president of Iran, if it were up to him, indicated he would be glad to lose a million people if he could wipe out Israel. Perhaps he was joking, perhaps not, but If I lived in Israel I don't think I would be very comfortable guessing which way this could turn. You seem rather casual about a "few" rockets and mortars. If radical, blood thirsty Canadians were doing that to us, we just might do something about it. The elimination of Hamas is a valid goal - if another group pops up, eliminate them. You say a diplomatic solution is the only option - that's been the mantra for decades. Only problem is, for the muslims, the only diplomatic solution is the elimination of Israel and the death of all Jews. Some negotiation. That does not sound very appealing to me.
Posted by pyeatte at 02/20/2009 @ 3:41pm
Someone points out that Israel has 200 nukes and the most warlike gov't meaning the newly-elected one in the Middle East. The War Mongers immediately call that post anti-Semitic.
Critics of Israel don't have to rely on questionable translations of one politician's rhetoric to find evidence. The Israelis actually do attack and destroy their neighbors, most recently in Gaza and Lebanon. Once again, you, not the "Left" or the jihadists, are the real fascists, .
Posted by DavidSpero at 02/20/2009 @ 4:03pm
The Israelis actually do attack and destroy their neighbors, most recently in Gaza and Lebanon. Once again, you, not the "Left" or the jihadists, are the real fascists, .
Posted by DavidSpero at 02/20/2009 @ 4:03pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Don't forget Israel's use of the Kurds as proxy to attack Iran as well.
'Now, Israel has hundreds of agents, including members of Mossad operating in the Kurdish areas of northern Iraq. In addition Mossad is now conducting covert operations in Kurdish areas of Iran and Syria. One former Israeli intelligence officer told Hersh "It's Realpolitik. By aligning with the Kurds Israel gains eyes and ears in Iran, Iraq and Syria."'
Democracy Now - interview with Sy Hersh on 06/22/04.
Posted by OneVote at 02/20/2009 @ 4:15pm
Someone points out that Israel has 200 nukes and the most warlike gov't meaning the newly-elected one in the Middle East. The War Mongers immediately call that post anti-Semitic.
Critics of Israel don't have to rely on questionable translations of one politician's rhetoric to find evidence. The Israelis actually do attack and destroy their neighbors, most recently in Gaza and Lebanon. Once again, you, not the "Left" or the jihadists, are the real fascists, .
Posted by DavidSpero at 02/20/2009 @ 4:03pm
Weak attempt to ignore the real hate-
you know, his comments that these orthodox jews are busy breeding more than anyone else.
Substitute black or hispanic and you would be shouting racist.
Posted by antisocialist at 02/20/2009 @ 4:26pm
Coming home after my daily rounds......saw a large & high billboard by the highway.......
Simple sign of a child's face, all yellow background....message says "Pray for Gaza"....below the face: "www.pray4gaza.???".
You know what was my first millisecond flash thought when the billboard registered? Terrorists!
I was a bit chagrined at my own reaction.....but, hey, chalk this up to the Iranians!
Posted by Happy at 02/20/2009 @ 4:38pm
Well the whack-job president of Iran, if it were up to him, indicated he would be glad to lose a million people if he could wipe out Israel. Perhaps he was joking, perhaps not, but If I lived in Israel I don't think I would be very comfortable guessing which way this could turn
Posted by pyeatte at 02/20/2009 @ 3:41pm
The whack job president doesn't have any say whether Iran uses its imaginary nukes. He has about as much power as our VP(excluding cheney of course). Imagining the nutjob PM of israel using a nuke in the region should be more of a concern. Ooops, was that anti-semetic?
Posted by stpwarsnow at 02/20/2009 @ 5:25pm
Anti-socialist: drop the anti-semitic stuff. The concern on demographics is not mine, it is that of secular Jews in Israel. It is my Israeli secular fellow academics (not only them) who have issues with the gradual high-jacking of their country. But I guess you would describe them as self-hating Jews.
I have personally done more than enough to teach my students about my own nation's Jewish history and my own country's erasure of its fascinating Jewish past. Your comments can only be insulting. Still as you ask, my comment barely notes that when we orientalize people with Burkas we should also look at the familiar versions of fundamentalism that we have come to accept uncritically.
Please also note that when Israel makes arguments about the demographic time-bomb that it faces - given Arabic birth-rates - nobody criticizes that as racist. When Muslim parties take over (often through elections) a secular Muslim country we bemoan it but when the same is in the process of happening in Israel and someone notes it that person is anti-semitic.
On Byzantium: By the eleventh century the empire was on the path to some sort of Renaissance. It had pushed back the Caliphate and was THE Mediterranean superpower. Intellectuals like Psellos were channeling Machiavelli four centuries earlier and the classics were on a rebound, as was astronomy and other sciences. What happened next is fascinating and can only be explained as system-breakdown. Put (too) simply, a very prosperous society bristles under authoritarian rule, a system made for the monolithic society of the "Dark Ages" fails to accommodate that. Civil wars ensue, and just then three different invasions take place (Normans, Petcheneges, Seljuks). The military aristocracy takes over and the window closes on social reform.
Posted by dimik72 at 02/20/2009 @ 7:01pm
Let me edit the following part of my text because more misrepresentation might ensue:
>> It is my Israeli secular fellow academics (not only >> them) who have issues with {{{{ what they >> perceive as }}}} the gradual high-jacking of their >> country.
Posted by dimik72 at 02/20/2009 @ 7:21pm
Anti-socialist: drop the anti-semitic stuff. The concern on demographics is not mine, it is that of secular Jews in Israel. It is my Israeli secular fellow academics (not only them) who have issues with the gradual high-jacking of their country. But I guess you would describe them as self-hating Jews.
Posted by dimik72 at 02/20/2009 @ 7:01pm
I responded that way because your insertion of the comments on Jewish orthodox birth rates was entirely irrelevant to a discussion on Iranian nuclear ambitions. Thus,any objective observer would likely conclude it a as denigrating Jews.
Posted by antisocialist at 02/20/2009 @ 7:26pm
"Bomb ..." will be mentioned, will be repeated over and over and over again, it will be repeated ad nauseum. Until the belief in an Iranian bomb will no longer be questioned, until it is taken for granted.
It will be the singular datum found sufficiently worthy of extrapolation from all data ... historic, intelligence (and considering the mind set of people I speak of, using the representatives of conservatism posting here ... the Sunday Comics, too), presently available.
By the weak minded for their minions ...
Posted by V at 02/20/2009 @ 8:44pm
We have another anti-semite onboard.
Projected by antisocialist at 02/20/2009 @ 2:51pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/21/2009 @ 12:03am
>>Don't Let the Iran Headlines Scare You <<
Ridiculous!
Even the headline: IRAN HAS THE A BOMB, would not scare The Nation readers. In fact, it would delight most of them.
IRAN ABANDONS NUCLEAR WEAPON AMBITION, that headline would scare Dreyfuss' crowd.
He knows it. His readers know it. So who is he kidding?
Dreyfuss is all about delusions and illusions, when he is not pitching outright lies.
He says, you can't build a bomb from a ton of LEU. But 75% of the energy and time it takes to make HEU is spent on light enrichment. Once you have ore that is 4 to 5% U-235 the rest is quick and easy.
Moreover, why does Iran go to so much expense, time and trouble, and accept debilitating economic sanctions, and int't badmouthing for the ability to make fissile material? The world, France, Russia, others, have offered to supply Iran with whatever fuel her nuclear power reactors would require.
And why does Dreyfuss treat this ambition so lightly, coming from a regime which believes in the imminent return of the 12th imam and considers Israel a "disgraceful blot" that should be "wiped off the face of the earth"?
Dreyfuss notes, ElBaradei recently said, Iran's enrichment program has slowed down. But why?
Oil is down to $35 a barrel and they are short of funds. Dreyfuss ignores that in that same Paris press conference, on Tuesday the IAEA head said, according to Reuters:
Iran was still not cooperating on the nuclear power station in Bushehr and "is not giving answers on its past nuclear activities"... "Iran right now is not providing any access or any clarification with regard to those studies or the whole possible military dimension"... "They shut off any cooperation with the agency over the past few months," he was quoted as saying.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 02/21/2009 @ 12:17am
I have the solution of the Israeli-Palestinian question.
For every 90 days that Hamas refrains from sending rockets or dangerous devices into Israel, 25,000 settlers will vacate the West Bank & East Jerusalem.
In 3 to 4 years if this agreement holds up, the Palestinian state will be ready to set up shop. Leaving buildings intact would be a great plus for the Israelis in forging positive world opinion. Alterations in the path of the security fence might help too.This would be somewhat different from the Gaza settler withdrawal which did little to stem West Bank settler incursion happening at the same time.
How sound?
Posted by Sorelish at 02/21/2009 @ 12:41am
pyeatte - there is a relatively large and prosperous Jewish population of long heritage in Iran (a nation without even one nuclear weapon) , Iranian Muslims do not seek their death - indeed, until the nation of Israel was forced upon the land of Christians and Muslims in Palestine Jews lived harmoniously with Muslims in many majority Muslim nations, and still do today in Egypt, Turkey, Yemen and Indonesia,etc. - your capricious and bigoted slander that "for the muslims, the only diplomatic solution is the elimination of Israel and the death of all Jews" is such a self- evident lie that it denies any legitimacy to rest of your warmongering rhetoric - much truer to the facts is it that many Israeli Jews, who have 200 nuclear weapons, seek the annihilation of all non-Jews from the entire land of Palestine and have no restraint to see non-Jews endure the most grotesque and inhumane of suffering their US funded and stocked war machine can inflict
Posted by nonukes at 02/21/2009 @ 12:51am
Obamanation may YET prove that he is the same kind of blinded leftist FOOL that Jimminey Peanutman Carter was involving Iran! I think we can safely for now sit back and watch as he bargins for the same U.S.A. meaninglessness in the middle east that Carter achieved!
It will make no one happy except the Iranians and Syrians who will continue supplying Hamas, Hezzbolah, and any other Islamic extremist organization that is determined to kill as many Israelis as possible.
Let us hope that such a ship of fools as Obamanation has assembled for foreign meddling does not kill too many innocents while fondling the facism of Islam!
Posted by comancheamerican at 02/21/2009 @ 12:54am
"Even the headline: IRAN HAS THE A BOMB, would not scare The Nation readers. In fact, it would delight most of them. "
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 02/21/2009 @ 12:17am
I have been thinking about the level of virtue (I say virtue because one could pick, stupidity, asinine, ignorant, jack-ass, so forth, so on, enough material for a chapters worth of dissertation and still not plumb the depths of stupidity, ignorance, etc. etc. ...; see what I'm saying? Virtue encapsulates all of the above as it were.), relative to the lack thereof.
Allowing such dysfunctional drivel as the above to rise, let alone define the level of discourse would mean one must needs share some parts of the (pathology) malady. Hence the balancing act needed for its refutation, lest it be thereby unjustly dignified indirectly or by accident, in the process ....
Posted by V at 02/21/2009 @ 01:18am
Well..utter nonsense. The missle shield is BECAUSE of Iran. It would be just like Obama to shuck aside principle. If history has taught us anything (except for those in public school) is that Israel will never ever allow Iran to get a nuke. Israel warns, talks, demonstrates its foreign policy for 50 years. The now apparent lack of U.S. 'power' to help Israel with overflights for an attack, combined with European weakness, and Russian and Chinese actions at the UN make a strike by Israel ineveitable, although it won't be a conventional one. Iran just miht get a nuke after all but not in the way they planned!
Posted by mike63 at 02/21/2009 @ 02:55am
The usual Zionist suspects are out in droves going after Iran, using the same bogus claim about Iran's quest for the bomb.
The same shameless Zionists are conspicuously silent when it comes to the Israeli nuclear stockpile. The 200-400 Israeli nuclear warheads are aimed at every major population center in the Middle East, including Tehran; this is undisputed fact. Let Iran build the bomb in self-defense. Iran will never dare to mess up with us.
The same Zionists burry their heads in the sand when they speak of Iran's Islamic imperatives and tendencies behind the drive for the bomb. I want to remind these Israeli agents that religious extremism has been an Israeli monopoly since its creation. Israel is a nation erected on extreme religious principles and led by Jewish fanatics throughout its short history. Israel bloody criminal history, as well as, its ongoing territorial expansion are based on explicit religious pretexts. Iran has never attacked or occupied anyone in the last 300 years.
Just because the Zionist-controlled New York Times or L.A Times made a claim about Iran does not make such claim true. Does anyone in his own mind expect the Senate Intelligence Committee, chaired by the Zionist Dianne Feinstein; to confirm Leon Panetta at the CIA had he not cast a shadow of doubt on Iran? Our congressional hearings are mere carnivals where appointees display their unwavering allegiance to the Israeli agenda.
The Jewish lobby has turned our foreign policy into a joke; we Americans are paying dearly for allowing our congress to become an Israeli occupied territory.
Posted by CripThink at 02/21/2009 @ 04:41am
the missile shield, which has never worked, installed in Poland to guard against Iran. great nonsense.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/21/2009 @ 10:25am
Demonizing and warmongering Iran to protect Israel is wrong. The Iran 'issue' is 100% Israeli.
Unlike Iran, Israel simply has too much to hide and wants to keep it that way.
When is Israel going to sign the NNPT which Iran has done?
When is Israel going to allow IAEA inspections which Iran has done?
The US and Israel want Iranian nuclear transparency? Then Israel better be just as transparent.
US silence about Israeli nuclear weapons and lack of membership to the NNPT while maintaining such harsh rhetoric towards Iran's nuclear program, legally allowed to enrich uranium as a NNPT member is outright double standard BS that the United States has been following in its foreign policy.
Israel has its own nuclear arsenals and they are the biggest recipient of our aid in the world. The world has condemned Israeli behavior with almost 200 UN resolutions which Israel chooses to ignore, with US backing.
Why is Israel, a rogue nuclear state allowed to lay waste to every international law and convention without criticism and their "enemies" are not entitled to raise a hand in their own defense ?
Cut the billions of dollars we give Israel each year, we need the money here at home, not financing 'security' for our biggest welfare client.
Good news? There will be when the US recognizes a two-state solution, a separation between Israel and this one, the United States.
Why don't we put it to vote and see how many Americans and world citizens want to continue supporting the world's biggest welfare client, Israel ?
Posted by Betz55 at 02/21/2009 @ 10:29am
CripThink: I should say that for the sake of accuracy we should clearly state that Israel was not founded on religious principles. Its founders were hyper-secular socialists. The state of Israel was more or less Labour dominated till the seventies when Likud came in. The Orthodox were for years marginal (though since 67 used as a convenient excuse for creating a fait accompli on the ground in the occupied territories: "we need to have the army there to protect those crazy people who want to live there").
The tragedy of Israel is that it is not only sliding towards neo-liberal right wing economics, with much of its Labour-built welfare state gutted, but also towards the religious right. It is a slow gradual process and it is why many secular Israelis hold on to their dual nationalities as a safety guarantee.
You can no longer be openly a secular woman in much of Jerusalem. Female friends of mine who have had to study there were waiting for the weekends so that they could flee to Telaviv. In Jerusalem the reaction of the Orthodox to the behavior of the secular people is not too different from that Ahmadinejad's minions. Vitriol and other acids are thrown to the faces of girls wearing mini skirts, taxis and other cars are stoned if they drive on Saturday. Basically not much different that Tehran.
Still religion was not one of the concerns of the founders of the country.
Posted by dimik72 at 02/21/2009 @ 1:03pm
FACT: Iran has a RIGHT to nuclear weapons, if they want it! Why can other nations have nukes and some can't?
This whole argument is a bunch of hypocritical BS.
Posted by ZombieNation at 02/21/2009 @ 3:34pm
dimik72,
I do agree with you that Zionism needed a unifying theme to attract Jews of multi-nationalities to come to colonize Palestine in the early days. Now the Zionists are struggling to contain the religious monster they have nurtured. No two will disagree that theocracy is the prevalent paradigm in Israel today; despite the thin veneer of secularism the Israelis try to project to the outside world. We all remember the Jewish women who were violently mobbed when they attempted to cross the man-only line to the Wailing Wall.
Israeli theocracy, women right in Israel; the prevalent draconian Talmudic set of rules, which dictate Jews relationship to non-Jews, are taboos to the western world. We are not allowed to delve into these topics or discuss them openly. The Anti-Semitism curse will hang over our heads if we dared examine these topics. This falls into the sphere of criticizing Israel; only Jews can criticize Israel with some restraint; non-Jews will be quickly dismissed as Anti-Semites if dared to criticize Israel.
When it comes to religious zealously and militarism I see great similarity between Israel and Iran on all fronts. However, it is Iran that is punished for its extremism while the Israelis are allowed to arm to the teeth with a vast stockpile of nuclear variety.
Posted by CripThink at 02/21/2009 @ 5:16pm
children in iran,
HAVE IRANIAN PARENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/21/2009 @ 5:45pm
children in iran,
EAT GRAPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/21/2009 @ 5:46pm
children in iran,
PLAY WITH TOYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/21/2009 @ 5:46pm
EGAD,
LOCK YOUR DOORSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/21/2009 @ 5:46pm
V at 01:18am begins with:
>>I have been thinking...<<
. . . and then shows what he considers, thinking.
He sweated over that little smoking pile. You can smell it reeking, you can see the excited flies buss all around it. And he is happy and proud of it, the pretentious idiot; such is what passes for thinking on these boards.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 02/21/2009 @ 8:35pm
dimik72 at 1:03pm says:
>> Vitriol and other acids are thrown to the faces of girls wearing mini skirts, <<
Rubbish. There was such a case years in Jerusalem years ago when ultra orthodox out-patients were let loose. Similarly, some maniacs attacked abortion doctors in the US some years back. But those were aberration. Doctors are safe in the US and sexy girls are safe in Israel, even in crazy orthodox neighborhoods. Sure, they'll get nasty look, maybe a yelled insult, but for acid look to the the stuff sloshing in your skull, dimik72. As to the religious kids stonning cars on the Sabbath, that stopped years ago when one of the rabbis egging them on was jailed.
For real religious lunatics look at your friends here, CripThink for example. Hating and slandering Jews is his religion, the craziest, most fanatic creed ever, and to whose congregation you apparently belong, and certainly condone with your silence.
As to Ahmadinejad, he and his messianic friends believe in the 12 Imam and that that requires wiping out "the blot" that is Israel.
To make anything in Israel equivalent to that is idiotic, but you are fully up to that.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 02/21/2009 @ 8:43pm
Buzz, not buss
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 02/21/2009 @ 8:47pm
Hugo, look for:
McClatchy Washington Bureau Print This Article Print This Article
Posted on Thu, Aug. 07, 2008 In Jerusalem, Muslim handles Sabbath chores for Jews Dion Nissenbaum | McClatchy Newspapers
As you can see it is recent and it is not really about the issue under discussion. Still, I am just going to excerpt a small relevant part:
Jerusalem's most conservative neighborhoods cordon off their streets with metal gates to make sure that no one who's breaking the Sabbath rules drives through. (At one point some years ago in Jerusalem, cars that accidentally drove into orthodox Jewish neighborhoods on the Sabbath were stoned.) -------------
Now I do not know about you but even though I do understand that there are parts of cities in the western world where I would not go because there is crime, there is no place where I would not be allowed to go because some group has decided that their religious belief bars me from its public spaces (like streets or squares).
As for vitriol: it takes a few cases to make a point and basically limit the freedom of a whole segment of the population. My Jewish, secular, female friends in Jerusalem felt oppressed last year not "years ago."
Again, if you accept that parts of the country can be controlled by a religious minority, how is the said country different from Pakistan whose government just recently made arrangements for Sharia law in Swat?
As for religious fanatics: I am an equal opportunity critic. Iranians are as much of a problem as Israelis and Evangelical Christian. They are all allies as their hatred props one another in power to the detriment of the secular among us. Look below for a final point.
Posted by dimik72 at 02/21/2009 @ 9:12pm
For real religious lunatics look at your friends here, CripThink for example. Hating and slandering Jews is his religion, the craziest, most fanatic creed ever. Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 02/21/2009 @ 8:43pm Zionist Hugo_Pirovano,
Can you name a single difference between the 12 Imams theory of Ahmadinejad and the Zionist ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to resurrect the 2nd Temple of Solomon in the Greater Israel? At least Ahmadinejad hasn't begun his murderous campaign on the road to his grandiose fantasy yet; the Israelis have been murdering Palestinians for the last 80 years on the road to their fantasy.
Half of the Zionist's guilt complex and criminality will be instantly healed if they just look in the mirror before pointing fingers at others; especially those whom they accuse of harboring religious fantasies.
Posted by CripThink at 02/21/2009 @ 9:26pm
On another note Hugo: I happen to believe that fighting racism in all its forms, whether anti-semitism or other is an essential duty of every civilized nation or individual citizen. In view of this I can only tell you that the liberal application of the term anti-semite against critics of Israel, many of whom are actually Jewish, is but a way to weaken the term.
I have, however, an even graver concern. I do believe that the holocaust was the greatest tragedy of western European civilization (possibly of world history). I believe this not just because it destroyed communities that were hundreds if not thousands of years old and killed millions of people. That is but one dimension of the holocaust. The other is that the holocaust was the product of the same ideological and cultural trends that on the other side of the spectrum gave us the best of western civilization. It demonstrated the Janus-like face of our culture and showed how close to carnage even the most "civilized" nations and people among us can be.
The facile attacks on critics of Israel that label them as anti-semites cheapen the word and create in society a cynical view of those who use the term. And as those attacks are often associated with invocations of the holocaust (not in your case here), they fundamentally trivialize what may have been the most tragic event in world history and make the bulk of society cringe at the thought of even engaging with the problems underpinning the study of racism and the holocaust.
So you may keep going down this path if you wish. The only thing you achieve is guarantee that in a generation or two the revisionists, the true racists and enemies of historical truth, would have won simply because you would have discredited all that is valuable in anti-racist discourse.
Posted by dimik72 at 02/21/2009 @ 9:39pm
There´s no evidence that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons. ZERO EVIDENCE. So, the UN sanctions are illegal. If Israel/United Bluff attack Iran for no reason other than MADNESS and ISRAELI PROPAGANDA, we´ll be back in 1932 economically, not least because of the closure of the Strait of Hormuz. And it will be a war of a hundred years. If we attack them, they´ll probably use an A-bomb in e.g. Chicago in 5-10 or 15 years. But then we asked for it ! How can Obama and Gates claim that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons with ZERO EVIDENCE for that claim ? Are they mad ???
Posted by claus at 02/22/2009 @ 2:53pm
Thankfully, Israel has put Netenyahu in as PM and the world will be safer if and when Israel takes action. Posted by antisocialist at 02/20/2009 @ 10:09am
Weird. I just read headlines saying that Netanyahu was willing to work with Obama for diplomatic solutions in the Middle East. Look like he isn't as hawkish as you hoped. Even he is becoming inspired by Obamamania as you guys like to call it I guess.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/22/2009 @ 3:54pm
Thankfully, Israel has put Netenyahu in as PM and the world will be safer if and when Israel takes action. Posted by antisocialist at 02/20/2009 @ 10:09am
Weird. I just read headlines saying that Netanyahu was willing to work with Obama for diplomatic solutions in the Middle East. Look like he isn't as hawkish as you hoped. Even he is becoming inspired by Obamamania as you guys like to call it I guess.
http://tinyurl.com/cpcmps
See. If he's willing to acquiesce on Palestine and give up their own land my God what else is he willing to do?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/22/2009 @ 3:55pm
Remember when Israel pulled out of Gaza, and Sharon had a stroke? Pat Robertson said that was God smoting him for defying his (God's) will.
Maybe if Netenyahu works out a deal with Obama and the Palestinians, something similar will happen to him!
Posted by FDR43 at 02/22/2009 @ 5:18pm
Posted by FDR43 at 02/22/2009 @ 5:18pm
Crazy fundy Christians.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/22/2009 @ 5:47pm
Here's something to consider: whatever Israel does (such as attack Iran), they do with American complicity - Israel won't attack without American knowlege.
Posted by FDR43 at 02/22/2009 @ 5:51pm
Here's something to consider: whatever Israel does (such as attack Iran), they do with American complicity - Israel won't attack without American knowlege. Posted by FDR43 at 02/22/2009 @ 5:51pm
All true.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/22/2009 @ 11:46pm
Posted by FDR43 at 02/22/2009 @ 5:51pm
Well ... true after a fashion, but the threat of such a card has in fact been played from time to time in the past.
The same people, the same generals who were against the Iraq war from the beginning (not the Imp's war, but when "Cheney" was pushing for it some 20-25 years ago ...) say that Israel would perhaps, win, but not survive such a mid-east conflagration. So they in effect threaten suicide, to the end they would take us with them.
That's what is different this time, if they do something so pathological now, they go off the edge alone. So in a round about way, I agree with your assessment.
However I will note though, that certain actions taken by Israel were not with American complicity, but pressure ...
Posted by V at 02/22/2009 @ 11:52pm
INTO THE TEETH of THE DOG
All through history man was born to struggle Surviving nature, disease, greed, and war. Since his conception he has remained the same Choosing to serve evil or good as before.
Our boys and girls face the teeth of the dog In hot spots all over our earth. They leave their families and all they love To protect and preserve what liberty is worth.
The foes they face are the mad dogs of man With a desire to kill, disfigure and enslave. They sing and dance to the death of others Teaching principles of hate till the grave.
Support our troops who battle the horde While we live the good life back home. When you see a soldier show them your smile Say "hello we love you and your not alone."
THE MAD DOGS OF MAN
Wherever dwell the mad dogs of man There is corruption, plunder and hate. In every city, town, or village Those who promote distrust deserve their fate.
All are born as an innocent child Till mislead by others along the way. God has always loved his children Though it breaks His heart when they stray.
The mad dogs of man never repent For they have no sense of shame or sorrow. Worshiping dominance and the dark side of life Abusing victims as if there were no tomorrow.
God gives the will to sin no more And to overcome evil unwilling to cease. The mad dogs of man must be stopped Who murder, rape and destroy world peace.
Samson, Solomon, and David Were chosen by God to stand tall. They faced great odds and the fear of death Refusing to ignore their call.
The time has come for the good men of earth To band together to restrain the horde. Standing firm against tyranny where it exists Putting the mad dogs of man to the sword.
All Poems By Conservative Poet Tom Zart Most Published Poet On The Web
TOM ZART'S RADIO POEMS
You can hear all of To
Posted by TomZart at 02/23/2009 @ 6:08pm
SATAN'S HORDE SHALL BE REMOVED
Overrun with war and uncontrolled leaders Our world becomes more dangerous each day. Dishonest politicians, criminals and the media Survive by their falsehoods at play.
Bible believers preach, that the end is near Our world as a whole is beyond reform. God will eradicate all which is wicked By His fire of eruption and storm.
To evil's victory, I will never concede May its supporters anguish in hell. By the grace of God and the power of faith The goodness of man will prevail.
What we accomplish is heaven's measure As patriots respond to the threats of man. Protect and defend what we love till death As the soldiers of Satan arise from the sand.
SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF WORLD WAR III
Our sons and daughters serve in harms way To defend our way of life. Some are students, some grandparents Many a husband or wife.
They face great odds without complaint Gambling life and limb for little pay. So far away from all they love Fight our soldiers for whom we pray.
The plotters and planners of America's doom Pledge to murder and maim all they can. From early childhood they are taught To kill is to become a man.
They exploit their young as weapons of choice Teaching in heaven, virgins will await. Destroying lives along with their own To learn of their falsehoods too late.
The fearful cry we must submit And find a way to soothe them. Where defenders worry if we stand down The future for America is grim.
Now's not the time to fight one another Or kiss our enemy's cheek. All through history it remains the same The strong enslave the weak.
May God continue to bless America Refusing evil, the upper hand. It's up to us to stay resolute Defending the liberty of Man.
All Poems By Conservative Poet Tom Zart Most Published
Posted by TomZart at 02/23/2009 @ 6:10pm
THE MISSILES ARE COMING
I stare at the dust as it tries not to fall Swirling in the sun streams from the windows on the wall. Down in the valley ring lonely church bells Sounding their message as the devil's brood swells.
The missiles are coming though I can't tell you when As they drop down upon us our lifestyles shall end. You can hide underground or fly far away Their lingering fallout will find you someday.
No more small children shall toddle off to schools Because of mistakes of grownup mad fools. Believing in space men and the ships, which they fly You can bet as it happens, they'll watch it and cry
The generals are playing a death game of dare With missiles in the silos and bombs in the air. There'll be time for anger, there'll be time for greed But the time shall be lost for planting the seed.
FORMIDABLE FOE
America is the birthday cake of earth As the ants march from every direction. Thank God for all who have sworn to defend her Serving with love, honor, pride, and affection.
Since the first day George Washington marched off to war There have been those who have wished our demise. Their hatred, fueled by jealousy and greed Was defeated by our brave and the wise.
Once again, we must face a formidable foe Who have pledged by their God to destroy us all Misusing their faith as an excuse to kill As for a worldwide jihad, their leaders call.
Some say we should try to appease them For if we resist, they'll hate us even more. But the David's among us shall cast our stones Defeating them, as it was done before.
All Poems By Conservative Poet Tom Zart Most Published Poet On The Web
TOM ZART'S RADIO POEMS
You can hear all of Tom Zart's 330 poems of love, war, faith and more 24-7 on web radio at
http://internetvoicesradio.com/Arch-TomZart.htm
Tom
Posted by TomZart at 02/23/2009 @ 6:13pm
dimik72 at 02/21/2009 @ 9:12pm said:
>> it is recent and it is not really about the issue under discussion. Still, I am just going to excerpt a small relevant part: Jerusalem's most conservative neighborhoods cordon off their streets<<
You can't be bothered to offer a link, and say it does not bear on the the discussion, so don't expect me to google it. Moreover, that Haredi streets are cordoned off on Sabbaths is not only a non-sequitur, it is a ridiculous objection.
NYC allows its tiny minority of ultra-orthodox Jews to cordon off their Crown Heights and Williamsburg neighborhoods during the High Holidays. Little Italy has streets cordoned off for the San Gennaro Feast.
Why is it shocking that pious Jews are allowed to close to traffic on the Sabbath a few streets where only they live, in their holy city? Who has reason to be offended except self righteous bigots? Moreover anyone can enter, just not with an automobile.
When did you last complain that Saudi Arabia has whole cities, Mecca and Medina, where non Muslim may not enter. The entire country is closed to Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahai and others. There, and in many other Muslim country, displaying a crucifix or bible is forbidden.
But you, you broad minded soul, are disgusted that you can't drive in the streets of Hasids on the Sabbath.
You say, >> I am an equal opportunity critic.<<
Baloney. You equate Sharia, that stones adulterers to death and whips girls who show their legs, and hangs homosexuals, that severs limbs, and murders apostates - with the Jews who prohibit traffic on the Sabbath and with Evangelicals who send missionaries to Africa.
You pretend to broadmindedness but are bigot. Get thee to your temple of virtue, and take your friend, the Cripto Nazi with you.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 02/24/2009 @ 08:36am
Good post,
Opposing massive baseless propaganda always helps....alas if one is a warmonger Nazi, changing his/her mind is not that easy, he/she is always self-righteous.
Yet posting this is a tiny step in the right direction for building a more civil future..
Thanks Robert
Posted by humanist_woderer at 02/24/2009 @ 5:21pm
This is one huge unprecedented step from an ageing Brit living peacefully in a tiny village in France but having read the comments from antisocialist and hugo I am ... speachless. It is akin to reading the 'thoughts' of the characters in what my grandchildren seem to find entertainting in their bat-super-spider-joker-man films. I have to defend my sanity by believing that you are not human but dropouts from one of those early 1960's CIA LSD experiments. Do you not have children or family? Can you really equate Iranians or Arabs with their leaders. I am mostly mild mannered but would take great exception to being equated by by French friends with Blair or Thatcher merely because I have a British passport. The best translation I have read of the Iranian President's infamous statement is 'the zionist experiment will fade into the pages of history' (The whole speach can be found on-line with many slightly different versions but none like those originally published in Haaretz). This is a far cry from we must kill all Jews. It should also be remembered that this was a speach to a very conservative group of students and we all know that politicians say what they think their audience wants to hear. Your anti-semitic jibes were well countered by others here but you must surely be aware that close to 90% of the jewish population of Israel are not semites so why do you persist with this? To other Nation readers I must apologise for intruding in your space but it is now very late at night and the time I find my 'daily news' on the internet. I usually have the 'sang froid' to read and digest but tonight I am afraid was too much even for a phlegmatic Brit with 57 years behind him and friends all over the world some of whom are Jewish who would have been as offended as me.
Posted by bjreid15 at 02/24/2009 @ 7:25pm
bjreid15 at @ 7:25pm wrote:
>>To other Nation readers I must apologise for intruding in your space <<
Not at all.
This space is meant for people like you.
Which is to say, for those who can say everything they know in twenty seconds, unimpeded by the truth, common sense, or a shred of sanity.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 02/25/2009 @ 02:45am
Dear Hugo. In the present climate your wrath is distasteful. Were I a theist I would pray for those jews, moslems, christians and others who have to suffer the consequences of people on all sides with such entrenched opinions as you. As it is I can just feel sorry for humanity.
Posted by bjreid15 at 02/25/2009 @ 03:29am
Hugo if you wish to think of Israel by using Saudi Arabia in the discussion then you are certainly not doing a favor to Israel. Personally I would be happy to see Saudi Arabia turned into a UN-managed protectorate, its oil equitably distributed to its people and more to the point its women liberated. My views of Saudi Arabia, however, (absurd as they are from a the standpoint of international law) should have nothing to do though with criticism of Israel for whatever issue.
If your basic idea about everything is that anyone who criticizes states you like is a Nazi or an anti-semite then there is no point of arguing. If my effort not to use ad hominem attacks bothers you then seek the problem in your thinking not in my tone.
But then again I am not in the business of teaching people manners. What I will, however, suggest is that you read B'Tselem, Uri Avneri's writings, and the work of Israeli peace movement people. Maybe Amira Haas and Gideon Levi will also do. I ask this of you since if they can say what they say on their country and it be acceptable then I am not sure why the rest of us have to adhere to another standard. Also I ask you to do this as they have fought for their country or at least served in its armed forces and understand the implications of its actions. Maybe you have also defended Israel with your life. I still do not see how that would make your rudeness Kosher.
I do not equate Sharia with that, but with modesty patrols and acid attacks. Google the latest (August 2008). I will of course be harsher to Israel because Israel is a country that could conceivably be reasoned with. I do not expect a dialog with Saudi Arabia. I can only petition and lobby my government for sanctions. But with Israel I can hopefully have a dialog.
Posted by dimik72 at 02/25/2009 @ 9:31pm