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RedditAs Israel presses its bloody assault on Gaza, dropping broad hints that it is planning a ground attack to complement four days of bombings that have killed hundreds, it's clear that Israel's actions are likely to bolster, not weaken, the very enemy it is fighting.
Writing in the Washington Post, Palestinian journalist Daoud Kuttab points out that, before the latest crisis, Hamas was in sharp decline. The headline on his thoughtful piece is: "Has Israel Revived Hamas?" He says: "Israel appears to have given new life to the fledging Islamic movement in Palestine."
Over the past two years, Kuttab notes, Palestinian support for Hamas -- an ultrareligious, terrorist-inclined wing of the fanatical Muslim Brotherhood movement -- has declined sharply, from a 30 percent in 2006 to 22 percent in August, 2007, to just 17 percent in 2008 -- compared to 40 percent for Fatah, the mainstream, secular nationalist wing of the Palestinian body politic. Kuttab points out that Hamas has "turned down every legitimate offer from its nationalist PLO rivals and Egyptian mediators." Now, he says, the attacks are a "bonanza for Hamas" and says that Israel's assault will achieve "results exactly the opposite of its publicly proclaimed purposes."
Writing in the Wall Street Journal, and reflecting the views of Israel security hawks such as Bibi Netanyahu, Bret Stephens says that the Israeli campaign -- like the campaign in Lebanon that killed thousands in 2006, in the disastrous war against Hezhollah -- will not defeat Hamas. "The green flag of the movement will fly defiantly over the tallest building left standing," says Stephens. Unless, that is, the Israelis learn from Lebanon, 2006, and act decisively to crush Hamas once and for all. Problem is, that's an impossible task. Far more likely, Israel will end up radicalizing the Palestinians once again, weakening Fatah and strengthening Hamas. And that makes peace talks, and a settlement, less likely.
An intelligent news analysis piece in the Times from Stephen Farrell asks the key question:
The questions remain: Why did Hamas end its six-month cease-fire on Dec. 19? Will it -- can it -- unleash suicide bombers into Israel in retaliation? And will the devastation in Gaza make Palestinians fall into line behind Hamas, as they reliably have in the past, or will Hamas lose their support as Gazans count the escalating cost in blood and destruction?
Why, indeed? Like Israeli extremists such as Netanyahu, who thrive on conflict, Hamas too seems to have believed that it could revive itself by provoking its giant military adversary.
Farrells wonders: "A major question remains whether Hamas expected the shock-and-awe Israeli offensive that has left Gaza reeling." Hamas may not have expected the full brutality that Israel unleashed. In yesterday's post, I pointed out that the Mossad is reported to have concluded that Hamas was only seeking to make a show of force before trying to rengotiate the ceasefire on more favorable terms. But, in any case, its foolhardy decision to have ended the ceasefire and unleashed the rocket barrage seems idiotic in retrospect.
Yesterday, on NPR, I heard the official Hamas spokesman say -- without a shred of credibility or evidence -- that the rocket barrage since December 19 was unleashed by Israeli provocateurs in Gaza, seeking to provide Israel with an excuse for its all-out bombing campaign. Comments like that can only make Hamas look like pathetic, conspiracy-mongering fantasists.
Farrell's analysis points out that many Palestinians, so far at least, are rallying around Hamas, and he wonders:
More important is whether once away from television cameras and foreign journalists, Palestinians will vote for Hamas in presidential and parliamentary elections, which could take place within a year.
In Israel, the bloody holocaust they've unleashed is an election game, wherein Netanyahu and his slightly more moderate rivals in the Olmert-Livni bloc compete with each other to show who is best at slaughtering Palestinians. In Palestine, a similar election dynamic is underway.
In all of this, Obama continues his silence. Here's a way for him to end it: He ought to blame President Bush for his stunning refusal to get involved earlier this month, when Hamas started to say it that it would end its ceasefire. That was a perfect opportunity for the United States to end its boycott of Hamas and to sit down with Egypt, the Palestinian Authority under President Abbas, and Saudi Arabia and talk to Hamas. And Obama ought to say so. Don't hold your breath waiting for him to do it, though. We only have one incompetent president at a time.
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Robert Dreyfuss
A chronicle of America's adventures in foreign policy and national security.
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Bush sit down and talk with anyone are you mad...he does not believe in diplomacy, he is a bomb first and ask questions later kind of guy!!! Don't you remember, he won't talk to "terrorists" and that would involve anyone who does not agree with US policy!!! Whether we or Israel like it or not, Hamas are the leaders of Palestine right now and we will have to talk to them at some point. Did the UK not end up talking with Sinn Fein and peace was brought about....did we not talk with Col Gadaffi and peace was brought about...it can be done. We can't let Israel dictate to us who we may or may not talk to because they say so...they are the main problem anyway and we have given them too much support over the years and that should stop. Who are the ones who own nuclear weapons we wonder...could it be Israel, oh my so they do and they need our help!!! PLEASE.!!!
Posted by Caj at 12/30/2008 @ 10:23am
Posted by comanchenation at 12/30/2008 @ 10:38am
See?...I knew he wouldn't get the irony.
heheh
Posted by Mask at 12/30/2008 @ 10:51am
Posted by comanchea Posted by comanchenation at 12/30/2008 @ 10:43am
Typical response from I assume from someone who thinks that dropping bombs everywhere solves everything!!! If we have the mind set that creating war is the only way to resolve anything then we'll be in wars around the world forever. Negotiations should be top priority in any dispute, talk is a far better solution...it at least should be given a try!!! It unfortunately has been the case with Bush that he did not believe in talking to anyone....anyone that is who did not believe in US policy. Anyone who disagreed with the US policy are singled out as 'terrorist organizations"....such load of crap.
Posted by Caj at 12/30/2008 @ 11:00am
'In all of this, Obama continues his silence'
Obama will comment once he gets the green light from Israel, and only after Israel accomplishes or fails to accomplish its military objective. That is the way. Remember Lebanon?
Your article today entertains strategy over stupidity, and I suspect that in the days ahead, you will consider "desperation," a motivating force that has elements of both.
Posted by OneVote at 12/30/2008 @ 11:11am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians
it was actually Israel that broke the ceasefire on Nov. 5th, 2008 .
Posted by celticfc1983 at 12/30/2008 @ 11:21am
Obama will comment once he gets the green light from Israel, and only after Israel accomplishes or fails to accomplish its military objective. That is the way. Remember Lebanon?
Posted by OneVote at 12/30/2008 @ 11:11am
I hope you are wrong on that notion, but I do think he will have to take a stronger stance on Israel, we are too involved in this constant backing of them regardless. It does appear that his initial remarks seem very much like Bush's in the sense we are a "friend" of Israel...we need to be a friend to Palestine too as far as I'm concerned. So, I guess we will have to wait and see what happens once he gets into office....I hope that all this uproar around the world will make him think twice before putting Israel back on that pedestal.
Posted by Caj at 12/30/2008 @ 11:23am
Everey 30 years, Americans are given three days to feel that the United States could be something other than a septic tank. We had those three days this year, believing that Obama would behave like a human being instead of like an American President.
It was a nice thought while it lasted.
Posted by rykart at 12/30/2008 @ 11:38am
So, I guess we will have to wait and see what happens once he gets into office....I hope that all this uproar around the world will make him think twice before putting Israel back on that pedestal.
Posted by Caj at 12/30/2008 @ 11:23am | ignore this person | warn this person
His cabinet appointments thus far are not promising. He will have to fight his own cabinet to be even handed. This will take an exceptionally strong individual with absolute moral conviction.
Posted by OneVote at 12/30/2008 @ 11:41am
it was actually Israel that broke the ceasefire on Nov. 5th, 2008 .
Posted by celticfc1983 at 12/30/2008 @ 11:21am
Now that is not news that the ardent followers of Israel want to hear because they only see Palestine at fault here. I'm glad you enlightened them on the subject though.
Posted by Caj at 12/30/2008 @ 11:43am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians
it was actually Israel that broke the ceasefire on Nov. 5th, 2008 .
Posted by celticfc1983 at 12/30/2008 @ 11:21am | ignore this person | warn this person
'Ehud Barak, the Israeli defence minister, had personally approved the Gaza raid, the Associated Press said. The Israeli military concluded that Hamas was likely to want to continue the ceasefire despite the raid, it said. The ceasefire was due to run for six months and it is still unclear whether it will stretch beyond that limit.'
Source: excerpt from above link
Posted by OneVote at 12/30/2008 @ 11:55am
Posted by rykart at 12/30/2008 @ 11:50am
So you're just a nut....I see.
Posted by Mask at 12/30/2008 @ 11:56am
It is obvious that Israel is making a stupid (and brutal, and morally abhorrent) decision to pursue this massacre. They seem incapable of relating to their neighbors and adversaries through any means besides violent means. Nobody is accusing them of being intelligent, just destructive.
Posted by syfriendly at 12/30/2008 @ 12:01pm
Dreyfuss, logical and impartial as ever, has it all figurued out.
Israel has a right to protect itself. But the more successfully Hamas is punished for assaulting Israel the more Hamas gains the sympathy of the world and the support of the Arabs. Thus IDF military action only helps Hamas and ever more so the longer the pummeling continues. Therefore, the well meaning "journalists" Dreyfuss and Kuttab, counsel Israel to stop. Protecting herself only makes her the aggressor, whom right minded people must loath and oppose. To win she must lose; she must not let Hamas get ahead of her in the business of losing. It is for her own good.
Such are the rules of the game, the Catch 22, with which these geniuses think they can ensnare Israel.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 12/30/2008 @ 12:03pm
mask
The fact that we never came to terms with our criminality in nagasaki, hiroshima, hanoi etc is what has led inexorably to iraq, with 1.2 million people massacred, torture chambers set up around the world, a nation torn to pieces and incalculable human suffering with not a single soul held to account. For you, bush receiving some less than flattering press is sufficient.
Perhaps you are so fatalistic as to believe this cycle of genocide can never be broken and must play itself out in endless permutations for eternity. maybe that's your view of the "karmic wheel."
That's a pretty dreary view.
The victims of the Khmer Rouge have persisted in seeking justice for decades but you are ready to instantly pardon the American monsters so that their replacements can continue this carnage. That doesn't seem reasonable to me. We very nearly wound up with McCain as president---a man who continues to publicly refer to his napalm victims as "gooks." Because we never dealt with the horror of Vietnam.
Chomsky has spoken of "de-Nazifying" America. I see that as absolutely essential. One day, perhaps not very far into the future, America is going to destroy the entire earth, if some rather dramatic housecleaning doesn't take place.
Posted by rykart at 12/30/2008 @ 12:34pm
oh...and thanks for the spectacular revelations on the Mid East crisis, mask.
Yes...let's have some impartial negotiations with the Israelis!!!
By God---why hasn't anyone thought of that?
Posted by rykart at 12/30/2008 @ 12:41pm
Posted by rykart at 12/30/2008 @ 12:41pm
Neither you nor LVLIBERTY (nor any cohort that are virtually identical, if you merely swap out the names "Israel" with "Arabs"...or "Chomsky" with "Pat Robertson"...or "Vince Foster" with "9/11 Truthers")....matter.
Neither of your views will be the predominant view. LVLIB got closest with Dubya, but no "Chomskyite" will influence any Democratic President (despite what you hope or the Right declares).
Extremists fail...every time, to paraphrase Gandhi. Neither will LL's dream of a "de-Islamified Middle East" (Yes, he ACTUALLY suggested once that a 'possible scenario' for a peaceful, secure Iraq was...the Iraqis converting to Christianity)....nor the rabidly anti-Israel crowd (i.e. you)'s dream of Israel dragged in shackles to a bargaining table where their only option is "Agree to what Hamas wants or else"....
will come to pass. In fact, the Lunatic Fringe (here and in Eastern Med) do more to harm real chances for peace than almost any other factor...so...
Congrats, on being part of the problem, not part of the solution. Maybe you and LL can form a club with Netanyahu and Mashal.
Posted by Mask at 12/30/2008 @ 12:50pm
lv--your crap is too stupid to even bother reading.
Who is supporting Israel's violation of Palestinian rights? Who is in cahoots with them?
Egypt. (Where Mubarack just got through entertaining Livni, to help prepare the Gaza massacre)
Jordan.
Saudi Arabia.
All the Arab governments of the Mid East.
What a laughable kook you are.
Posted by rykart at 12/30/2008 @ 12:52pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/30/2008 @ 12:
Larry, why are you willing to go right upto the edge of your arguments...but not all the way?
What is your SOLUTION then? Do you anticipate a "Islamic Reformation" and overthrow of this supposed pan-Islamic denial of Israel's right to exist? If so, give evidence or indications of it.
Otherwise what IS your solution to (put it in YOUR terms) "Israel's security"?
Give us some specifics...."Keep killing anybody that ascends to leadership of Hamas and Hezbolllah"?...."Total war" (Your recommendation for "winning" the War on Terror, as I recall) "with 'Dresdenizing' of the Gaza and the West Bank".
Step up and show the courage of your convictions. Atleast rykart talked about "naval blockades starving out the Israelis"....you on the Other Side of the Fringe should have some specifics to match.
Posted by Mask at 12/30/2008 @ 12:54pm
What a laughable kook you are.----Posted by rykart at 12/30/2008 @ 12:52pm
Again, for those not paying attention...
this is from somebody who recommended "a naval blockade to starve the israelis into submission, after which, more serious tactics of persuasion will be brought to bear."
Irony overload.
Posted by Mask at 12/30/2008 @ 12:55pm
mask...it's not what Hamas wants, it's what the entire world wants. Read the UN votes.
In the meantime, you really ought to do something about your pervasive sense of hopelessness.
Take heart! America is becoming more and more of an irrelevant joke each day. China now offers advise to this pitiful debtor nation on how manage its economic affairs. And we better listen--because THEY crack the whip now.
The US is mired in multi-billion dollar scandals, its infrastructure is crumbling under our feet and anti-Americanism is the fastest growing ideology on earth. The writing is on the wall---America is finished. Sure--it'll take time to finally kick the legs out from under it, but in the end, that may not even be necessary. America is hanging itself with its own rope.
It's the pro-America and pro-Israel crowd who are the Dinosaurs. So cheer up.
Posted by rykart at 12/30/2008 @ 1:03pm
"The writing is on the wall---America is finished."----Posted by rykart at 12/30/2008 @ 1:03pm
Hmmm, packed and applying for that Canadian visa, are we?
LOL. Or just another "America is doomed...but no, I'm sticking around because I enjoy utter chaos and the coming dictatorship and martial law" type?
Posted by Mask at 12/30/2008 @ 1:06pm
Well, You can't have it both ways! There have been many complaints in this magazine about collateral damage in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I doubt if it equals the collateral damage in Gaza or, for that matter, in Lebanon. Certainly, any collateral damage is to be avoided, but don't expect the world, and the Arab World in particular, to love Israel for bombing Gaza. Israel may win a tactical victory in Gaza, but this "victory" may, in the long run, be a strategic loss. Hamas may lead the Palestinian state that will one day emerge beside Israel. This is called unforeseen consequences!
Posted by P. J. Casey at 12/30/2008 @ 1:10pm
No mask...you're right.
America is fit as a fiddle. It's not in decline. Not in the least! Its military hasn't had the crap beaten out of it over and over and over and over by countries that barely even have a standing army. We're winning!
We're winning EVERYWHERE and our vibrant economy is soaring!!!
Sure.
And I'm Reinhold Messner.
Posted by rykart at 12/30/2008 @ 1:12pm
It amazes me to continually read the anti-Jewish sentiments of the left here. You'd think this was a site designed to draw out Hitler lovers.
Like all anti-Jews, you leftists seem to thrive on the idea that Israel is evil and Arabs good.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/30/2008 @ 12:16pm | warn this person
"Anti-Jewish" Liv? Those who criticize the actions of Israel's government are "anti-Jewish"?
Ever thought that Israel's atrocity may be fueling "anti-Jewish" feeling throughout the world? Perhaps the "lefties" you cite are in fact "pro-Jewish." Christian Zionists are doing little to promote goodwill towards Judaism, rather they are fanning the flames of resentment and hatred. Perhaps you are the hand maiden?
Posted by OneVote at 12/30/2008 @ 1:17pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/30/2008 @ 12:16pm
Funny I see you want to commit genocide on the Arabs. I guess that makes you an Anti-Arab racist.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/30/2008 @ 2:14pm
Criticism by Churches in the U.S.A. The General Assembly of the National Council of Churches in November 2007 approved a resolution for further study which stated that the "theological stance of Chistian Zionism adversely affects:
justice and peace in the Middle East, delaying the day when Israelis and Palestinians can live within secure borders relationships with Middle Eastern Christians [prior reference to the Jerusalem Declaration on Christian Zionism] relationships with Jews, since Jews are seen as mere pawns in an eschatological scheme relationships with Muslims, since it ignores the rights of Muslims interfaith dialogue, since it views the world in starkly dichotomous terms" The Reformed Church in America at its 2004 General Synod found "the ideology of Christian Zionism and the extreme form of dispensationalism that undergirds it to be a distortion of the biblical message noting the impediment it represents to achieving a just peace in Israel/Palestine." The Mennonite Church published an article that referenced what is called the ongoing illegal seizure of additional Palestinian lands by Israeli militants, noting that in some churches under the influence of Christian Zionism the "congregations 'adopt' illegal Israeli settlements, sending funds to bolster the defense of these armed colonies." As of September 2007, listed among American churches that have criticized Christian Zionism: the United Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church (USA), and the United Church of Christ. * Source: Wikipedia
Posted by OneVote at 12/30/2008 @ 2:15pm
"The writing is on the wall---America is finished."----Posted by rykart at 12/30/2008 @ 1:03pm
People have been saying America is finished since America started. Give me a break.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/30/2008 @ 2:16pm
Posted by Mask at 12/30/2008 @ 12:54pm
He gave me his solution the other day. It is just as unrealistic and lacking in any direction of practicality as the rest of the solutions offered. That's the problem, every side wants some impractical and impossible solution to the problem. That's why this problem will never go away because no one offers realistic solutions.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/30/2008 @ 2:19pm
When will people learn that bombing populated areas only creates terrorists, it doesn't stop them? For all of you saying Israel should bomb Palestine until Hamas disappears if American planes flew over your home and bombed killing your wife and children, what would you do?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/30/2008 @ 2:21pm
rykart at 12:08pm asked:
<< Do you honestly think this massacre is going to REDUCE deaths in Israel? >>
No, but I honestly think it will INCREASE awareness in Palestine that when Hamas ends a cease fire and blindly shoots 300 rockets into Israel, there are consequences. Don't you?
<< Just wait until the inevitable suicide bombings commence. >>
It sounds like you can't wait. And it sounds like you forget, Hamas' declared goal is the obliteration of Israel. That means it commits atrocities whenever it can. If it hasn't lately it's for the same reason al Qaeda has not followed up 9/11: it couldn't. When that changes and a chance appears, it will be seized, no provocation is necessary.
<< The Palestinians are not going to have their women and children butchered by these scum and let Israel off the hook for it.>>
The scum butchering the Palestinians is their leadership. It is responsible for the suffering of the population. The people are the chief Arab weapon against Israel and they are expendable. For that reason all of Israel's peace offers, not least the generous offer of 2000 have been spurned. The leadership does not want a Palestinian state. It wants an occupation, a nation in agony, an open wound for which Israel can be blamed. That this strategy has destroyed three generations of Palestinians does not matter to Hamas or to other militant Arabs. Nor to fools like you.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 12/30/2008 @ 2:22pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/30/2008 @ 2:19pm
Of course. Switch out the sides, and there's no real differnce between a "rykart" and a "lvliberty".
Granted rykie will propose OUT LOUD lunacy like "naval blockades of Israel"...while LL always just "hints" at his "solution".
Posted by Mask at 12/30/2008 @ 2:24pm
Oh, Oh, not again....
Yesterday Dreyfuss accused Hamas of tactical stupidity in provoking Israeli's "shock and awe". Today "it is clear" Israel's shock and awe is likely to "bolster" Hamas. So what is it? Who knows? Dreyfuss gets confused and goes on to quote some who believe over time it will help or damage support.
What remains is the insistence Hamas is fanatical, ultra religious ,etc, etc. Dreary and historically incoherent. Nothing to explain the rise in support of Islamic movements in popularity throughout the region. whether in Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, or Somalia. There is little interest or understanding of what is locally and regionally important, and the nature of the appeal. This has been going on since the overthrow of the Shah by Khomenei, the rise of Hezbollah, and on and on.....
It might help reading from the publications and journalists of that region and rely less on the WSJ, NYT, and Washington Post. With the internet easy enough to reach out to the Intl Herald Tribune, at least, or The Lebanon Star for another.
Sadly, Dreyfuss doesn't get anywhere, ignores the changes in the region, the greater story of the decline and splintering of leadership among Israelis and Palestinians since the loss of Arafat or Sharon. Or the decline of Eqyptian and Saudi influence and their own internal weaknesses And given US active incompetence to mediate anything, maybe, back off, leave it to others and rethink why it has failed so consistently since Carter. Qatar was capable with Lebanon, and Turkey seems to "get it" better between Syria and Israel.
Dreyfuss prefers to bash Hamas.
Charlie M.
Posted by cmsandia at 12/30/2008 @ 2:24pm
Granted rykie will propose OUT LOUD lunacy like "naval blockades of Israel"...while LL always just "hints" at his "solution". Posted by Mask at 12/30/2008 @ 2:24pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I didn't suggest America was about to starve the Israelis into submission, mask. You're silly if you think that. (Actually, you're silly, regardless).
I simply pointed out the obvious, which is that America could end the Israel-Palestine conflict on terms agreed to by overwhelming international consensus and it could do it very quickly if it WANTED to. A naval blockade would hardly be necessary, since the hebraic rat hole of Israel is wholly dependent on the US for life support. It would be very simple to force it to accept international law.
(though a naval blockade obviously holds a certain appeal for justice-minded people, nauseated at Israel's decades of brutality. )
Posted by rykart at 12/30/2008 @ 3:05pm
There are many Arabs living there who would accept Israeli citizenship under the terms of the Israeli Constitution, just as 15% of the current Israeli population which is Arab does now. They live in peace, and with full rights. Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/30/2008 @ 3:02pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Actually, I like your idea. Why don't you propose to your Israeli friends that they do just that--permit the return of those they have expelled and grant them full rights of citizenship.
Posted by rykart at 12/30/2008 @ 3:12pm
ps...the Israelis do not have a constitution, lv.
It would help your case (though admittedly, not much) if you learned at least something about the state you are perpetually cheerleading for.
Posted by rykart at 12/30/2008 @ 3:16pm
solution: (i) EQUITY (yes naive!) for the downtrodden. (ii) the purveyors of arms/weapons being disarmed of their political and economic power (even more naive!!) (iii) the moderates on both sides getting into some sort of leadership roles and starting a dialog on at least (i) above. and do not discount the shelling from gaza being done/instigated by israelis, just like the attack on mumbai was also facilitated by the indian intelligence recruiting agents in afghanisatn, planting them in pakistan and guiding them to attack india. the end almost always justifies the means. i agree though that just like the us created the taliban, israel has revived hamas .. so they will all live to buy more weapons.
Posted by tamza at 12/30/2008 @ 3:27pm
Why is it if you have a different point of view to the Israeli conflict you are automatically "anti semite", just the same as if you don't agree with Bush you are "un-patriotic". You don't have to be anti anything or un patriotic to disagree with anyone...we may not agree with you but we are entitled to our opinions.
Posted by Caj at 12/30/2008 @ 3:50pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/30/2008 @ 3:02pm
So your solution is...Gaza and the West Bank, after years of being the nominal Palestinian state....reverts back to Israel.
And what exactly is the incentive for Palestinians to now accepting NO homeland where that have atleast a vague one? What if they say "no"?
Posted by Mask at 12/30/2008 @ 4:54pm
Posted by rykart at 12/30/2008 @ 3:05pm
and for the Other Side of the Spectrum...
what if the Israelis said "no"? They've suffered much worse than a economic depression that would result from no trade....not even Noam Chomsky would see Israeli children starving from lack of aid, so all they have to do is put up with some hardships....like the Palestinians have.
Or don't you in your virulent anti-Israelism think that Israelis TOO could "hold out" rather than surrender?
Posted by Mask at 12/30/2008 @ 4:56pm
What's the alternative?
The alternative for Hamas would have been to multiply the approach of the nonviolent boatloads of people who were in the last month bringing supplies to Gaza, ignoring or violating the Israeli blockade. This approach was building support in much of the world, pointing out the injustice and violence of the blockade. Instead of canceling the cease-fire and aiming rockets once again, they could have turned those boats into a multitude.
The alternative for the Israeli government would be to say: --- Instead of scornfully rejecting the Saudi/ Arab League proposal for a region-wide peace settlement among Israel, all Arab states, and a viable Palestinian state, we encourage it, and encourage its proponents to press Hamas to join in, while making clear that for us the deal must include only very small symbolic numbers of Palestinian refugees returning to Israel itself, and control of the Jewish Quarter and the Western Wall in the Old City of Jerusalem. And we encourage, instead of blocking, a Palestinian government of national unity, including Hamas as well as Fatah.
And we negotiate openly with Hamas toward ending the blockade, welcoming European and Egyptian aid and investment, releasing the members of their parliament we are holding in jail, and in exchange, get an end to the rocket attacks by Hamas and their acceptance of governmental responsibility to control other groups that may try to continue.
And the alternative for the US government would be to use the disaster of these reciprocal attacks to call for all the above: To insist on a regional Middle East peace conference, to insist that even a Netanyahu government of Israel and even a Hamas leadership of Gaza or Palestine take part and accept a decent peace, to connect the end
Posted by awaskow at 12/30/2008 @ 5:13pm
the NATION loses all credibility when it puts up LAUGHABLE lines like " the elections in Israel have spurned a who can kill the most Palestinians to get elected" bs. Katrina, you better get your publication back in reality before you fully fall off the cliff !
Posted by lokeys at 12/30/2008 @ 5:20pm
What kind of independent journalism is this? Parroting the old crap that Hamas is "terrorist" and the Muslim Brotherhood is "fanatical" isn't exactly stepping out of the mainstream, is it, squawk squawk!!
Why is it that anything the US says is automatically deemed to be the truth? I direct readers to this article, it is definitely food for thought and better than this crummy piece of bullshit journalism:
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/123008.html
Read it, you might learn something.
Posted by beautifulady2003 at 12/30/2008 @ 5:31pm
What kind of independent journalism is this? Parroting the old crap that Hamas is "terrorist" and the Muslim Brotherhood is "fanatical" isn't exactly stepping out of the mainstream, is it, squawk squawk!!
Why is it that anything the US says is automatically deemed to be the truth? I direct readers to this article, it is definitely food for thought and better than this crummy piece of bullshit journalism:
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/123008.html
Read it, you might learn something.
Posted by beautifulady2003 at 12/30/2008 @ 5:33pm
Israel's Merciless Reputation
'Israel's deadly response on Hamas and an already beleaguered Gaza Strip is increasingly looking like retaliation for the unexpected resistance campaign headed by Hezbollah in 2006 and less like a strategic counterattack against Hamas militants. The timing of the attack, when U.S. President George Bush is leaving office, the global economy is in crisis, and many in the Western world are celebrating the new year, suggests that Israel waited to choose an ideal time to wage this unforgiving show of strength.'..............
'This point was illustrated in an analysis by Yossi Sarid, published over the weekend in Israel's Haaretz Newspaper. Sarid wrote: "A million and a half human beings, most of them downcast and desperate refugees, live in the conditions of a giant jail, fertile ground for another round of bloodletting. The fact that Hamas may have gone too far with its rockets is not the justification of the Israeli policy for the past few decades, for which it justly merits an Iraqi shoe to the face."
'Gaza has already been shut to the outside world for some 19 months, making it more of an open-air prison for its 1.5 million residents. Now, according to international aid agency Oxfam, most humanitarian work in the territory has been forced to a standstill and a program that would feed 25,000 people had also been put on hold.'........
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/ postglobal/vivian_salama/2008/12/israels_merciless_reputation.html
Is it me, or do I detect more mainstream media type advertising on The Nation lately? GM, AT & T, SmartMoney, etc. No wonder this story is being handled the MSM way....i.e., Hamas is stupid, Hamas trying to provoke Israel to build its image and support, etc. Let's hear the true story.
Posted by OneVote at 12/30/2008 @ 5:53pm
It seems the more a lie is repeated the easier it becomes to believe - even at The Nation.
Hamas, for all its faults, did not refuse a coalition gov't with Fatah. It was Fatah who very loudly refused to join Hamas in a joint government. It was not Hamas who broke the cease fire on Dec. 19 but Israel on Nov. 4 (a good date to miss the news cycle in the US) with a rocket attack into Gaza killing four.
And as far as these overgrown bottle rockets go, more than half fired never reach Israel. Of those that do nearly all land on nothing. From 2004 till now 15 Israelis had been killed by rocket fire. That is two less than the average number of Palestinians Israel kills every week. When one consider this in addition to the equally murderous blockade perhaps we should start speaking of Hamas' desperate efforts at self-defense.
Posted by Rosser at 12/30/2008 @ 6:14pm
NEMESIS: The following was narrated to me by a Palestinian. "I am a Palestinian Christian of the Eastern Orthodox faith. I was born in 1958 on a farming village in what was defined as the West Bank. My father worked hard tending to an olive-tree orchard and a few acres of cereal crops. He had a wife and four small children to support. My father was a peaceful apolitical man who would never hurt even a fly. In 1969, when I was 11-years old, I was returning from school with my siblings and I saw a group of armed Israeli soldiers with a bulldozer poised to demolish our home. I led my siblings to a spot behind a wall and watched. My Mother was standing at the door wailing and my father, with his arm around her, was trying to console her while he was shouting to the soldiers begging them not to destroy our home which had stood there for five generations. Just as one Israeli was advancing toward my parents, another Israeli soldier aimed his machine-gun at my parents and killed them both. With only a casual glance at the murderer, and without removing the dead bodies, the Israeli in charge ordered the bulldozer operator to proceed with the demolition. Some of the soldiers -including the murderer- were laughing while the bulldozer's tracks ran over the bodies of my parents which were mixed with the debris. Fearing for our lives, my siblings and I ran to the house of my grandparents. We found them also crying and when, in tears, I told them what we had just witnessed my grandmother fainted. My grandfather was also crying while he tried to revive my grandmother. "They did the same thing to several other houses," he said. At that moment, I took a silent oath in my parents' memory that I would avenge their murder. I repeated the oath with my siblings a year later when we learned
Posted by Magister at 12/30/2008 @ 6:20pm
"As Israel presses its bloody assault on Gaza, dropping broad hints that it is planning a ground attack to complement four days of bombings that have killed hundreds, it's clear that Israel's actions are likely to bolster, not weaken, the very enemy it is fighting."
Ahhh, how civilized we've become when we can sit back with the cool disconnect of reasoned thought. Rather than point out the need to reprimand the unrestrained lust for carnage that the Israeli government demonstrates over and over again on a beaten and occupied people we speculate about whether or not the shameful killings will strengthen the "enemy".
That level of disconnect from humane considerations takes a great deal of education and development to obtain. Sterile, tactical and removed from all sentiment of grief for the murdered masses. Just another day in Gaza or Lebanon or Syria or . . . back to the maps and the math.
Please direct me to the stories that are demanding justice, civility, humanity and accountability? This tale is too long and painful to pretend that it's just politics and tit for tat.
Posted by Soullab at 12/30/2008 @ 7:37pm
Narative by a Palestinian continued:
... that our olive-tree orchard was leveled to clear the grounds for a Jewish settlement. As the years passed, we became resistance fighters and our enemy is the Zionist Occupation Government and its armed instruments. The continuing murders and destruction in which the Israelis engaged with abandon was a constant motivating factor that urged us not to repress our rage but to continue until our last breaths. I ask you: Are we entitled to met retributive justice where we had no other recourse to obtain justice? The Israeli propaganda machine has succeeded in convincing the United States government to brand our retributive acts as terrorism. But who are the terrorists, Those who, so brutally and inhumanly, murdered our parents and destroyed our home or us? "
Posted by Magister at 12/30/2008 @ 7:44pm
Narative by a Palestinian continued:
... that our olive-tree orchard was leveled to clear the grounds for a Jewish settlement. As the years passed, we became resistance fighters and our enemy is the Zionist Occupation Government and its armed instruments. The continuing murders and destruction in which the Israelis engaged with abandon was a constant motivating factor that urged us not to repress our rage but to continue until our last breaths. I ask you: Are we entitled to met retributive justice where we had no other recourse to obtain justice? The Israeli propaganda machine has succeeded in convincing the United States government to brand our retributive acts as terrorism. But who are the terrorists, Those who, so brutally and inhumanly, murdered our parents and destroyed our home or us? "
Posted by Magister at 12/30/2008 @ 8:08pm
If Obama does not take a strong stance against the genocide being committed againsat the Palestinian people, he loses all the honeymoon grace of the world community, and betrays the majority who elected him. His silence is appalling, cowardly, and a grave mis-step.
Posted by wise42j at 12/30/2008 @ 9:13pm
"Extremists fail...every time, to paraphrase Gandhi."
I assume this is tongue in cheek as Gandhi was considered an extremist by the British government. Among other extremists who clearly failed were the folks who brought us Magna Carta and signed the Declaration of Independence, as well as the women's suffragists, abolitionists...failure everywhere you look!
It seems in history that many of those who are labeled extremists at their time are the ones who push forward contrarian ideas that eventually reach fruition towards a more just world.
Posted by onthehelm at 12/30/2008 @ 9:38pm
Who was targeted in the London bombings-people on trains and buses, not the military or police.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/30/2008 @ 3:06
and whom did israel target when it covered the south of lebanon with cluster bombs?
Posted by frosty zoom at 12/30/2008 @ 11:25pm
Jordan is a peace with the Paistinians today... Even as the Palistians tried to take over Jordan as their own. Final peace was acheived after Jirdan attacked, killed, destoyed,and defeated the Palistians utterly as the expelled them entirely.
Today they have total peace ... Even with Israel..... Complete victory by one side over the other might he the solution....it might not he "peaceful"....but it might end the constant state of war there.
Posted by YourJomamma at 12/31/2008 @ 01:40am
Regarding the loony "LOVELIBERTY":Israel is not about to annex the West Bank and give them the vote. That would be the non-violent end of the "Jewish state". Instead, Israel would prefer to expel or exterminate the Arab residents of the West Bank. Currently, the strategy is to starve the Palestinians out. Israel just wants the land-not the humans who have lived there for ages. It is a cruel and evil strategy, supported by the U.S. supporters of Israel: the Israeli lobby, and most politicians, including the coming president Obama. Their names will live in infamy.
Posted by philbq at 12/31/2008 @ 02:04am
The supreme irony is that the Jewish people, who were expelled and exterminated in Europe, are doing the same thing to the Palestinians. And this irony is unseen by the craven U.S. politicians who assist.The latest is Obama. They are blind and deaf to the savagery inflicted upon innocent civilians in Gaza. History will judge them harshly.
Posted by philbq at 12/31/2008 @ 07:14am
Such are the rules of the game, the Catch 22, with which these geniuses think they can ensnare Israel. Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 12/30/2008 @ 12:03pm
Israel ha had the same strategy for 60 years.
How's that working for them?
If one were to go about the world warring for "freedom and democracy", wouldn't one want to see all peoples residing in ME countries counted as citizens of the country in which they live? One person/one vote.
Wouldn't it be great if Palestinians had little purple fingers after voting in a total Israelis election?
How many NEW Hamas members are being created this week? I will bet that more are created than killed, perhaps not as many Hamas members will be created as non-Hamas people will be killed.
Hamas launched rockets with the intent to kill civilians (of which their are few in Israel as most citizens are members of the military), they manage to kill none.
Israel attacks Hamas knowing full well they will kill non-Hamas as well, killing 350 people so far.
Neither of these groups deserves our support. They are both evil.
Posted by crabwalk at 12/31/2008 @ 07:23am
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/30/2008 @ 5:57pm
So again, what your solution is....
is, for peace, the PALESTINIANS must give up land (Gaza/WB)...to Israel?
Posted by Mask at 12/31/2008 @ 08:50am
Something to think about.
Imagine yourself living in the Gaza ghetto. You are completely locked in an area of 139 square miles along with 1.5 million people. That's 10,800 persons per square mile. By comparison, Bangladesh with 2,200 people/sq. mile, is considered the world's most densely populated country. You are totally dependent upon a well armed and unfriendly neighbor for the passage of food, fuel and medicine into your land. You are ruled by a corrupt government and ignored by the world. The price of oil is way down and there is nothing like a little instability in the region to drive it back up, so even your Arab neighbors ignore you. Your Palestinian brothers a few miles away left you swinging in the breeze when their democratic elections did not go the way they wanted. Finally, you know that elections are coming up in Israel and in every election, like clockwork, you get sucked into their war games choreographed to garner Israeli popular support.
What would you do to get the world's attention?
Posted by TheMayor at 12/31/2008 @ 09:06am
Hamas has never entered into an honest cease fire. They only use the pause to rearm. They have stated the only real solution is the liquidation of Israel. Take their word for it. Israel is doing the right thing in the face of continuing rocket shots from Hamas and the likelyhood in the near future of longer range rockets from Iran being utilized. Both Hamas and Hezbolla are backed by Iran. One meaningless ceasefire after another only prolongs the inevitable.
Posted by pyeatte at 12/31/2008 @ 11:38am
Posted by pyeatte at 12/31/2008 @ 11:38am
Again, recitation of the problem....your solution?
Posted by Mask at 12/31/2008 @ 12:16pm
And once again LVLIBERTY is confusing a general desire for Israel to not act like murderous assholes with anti-semitism.
The first post I saw mentioning anything anti-jewish was YOURS Mr. LIBERTY.
Anti-zionist is NOT, in any way, shape, or form, anti-jew. Get it through your thick skull and into that tiny brain of yours.
This is sort of like the lead up to the election...Everything bad said about Ms. Palin was suddenly sexist, and an affront against women. This complaint coming from REPUBLICANS some of the most sexist, misogynistic clowns to walk the Earth.
While rich and hilarious in some ways, it's also really sad, dishonest, and lame.
It's amazing how much LVLIBERTY and COMANCHENATION end up sounding so much like that which they hate, LOONY LIBS!
lolol
Obama should be starting up his Marxist gulag any day now, right boys?
Posted by TexasFlood at 12/31/2008 @ 12:23pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/30/2008 @ 5:57pm
So again, what your solution is....
is, for peace, the PALESTINIANS must give up land (Gaza/WB)...to Israel?
Posted by Mask at 12/31/2008 @ 08:50am
Well DUH, everyone knows they're all just mean caca-head terrorists "over there" and that they don't deserve basic human rights like the citizens of Israel apparently do.
Everyone also knows that there is only ONE side to this conflagration as evidenced by statements like "Israel has a right defend itself" even though that would logically mean that Palestine ALSO has the right to defend itself if you're looking at it even slightly objectively.
Objectivity, however, is not a quality LVLIBERTY has.
Posted by TexasFlood at 12/31/2008 @ 12:28pm
The real question is, what would LVLIB and his buddies do if he had his home bulldozed/blown up, and saw his wife and children splattered by a bomb dropped from an Israeli airplane...
I would love to know what your reaction would be...
I already know what mine would be.
Posted by TexasFlood at 12/31/2008 @ 12:30pm
I guess I'm just jew-hating again! LOL!
Posted by TexasFlood at 12/31/2008 @ 12:32pm
Seems like the best way for Israel to beat Hamas is to kill the Palestinians with kindness---food, aid, economic development, power plants, etc. Once the Palestinians find Hamas no longer has a foil, they may stop supporting the extremists in their midsts.
Honey works better than vinegar.
Posted by metogame at 12/31/2008 @ 1:39pm
Posted by TexasFlood at 12/31/2008 @ 12:32pm "I guess I'm just jew-hating again! LOL!"
I don't know, you tell me.
Israel does not go to war out of a vacuum. It is very easy to avoid war with Israel - don't fire rockets or send suicide bombers into their country trying to kill Jews. It is very easy to live in peace. War is also easy. Your choice. Just don't whine about it. I guess the most dispicable characteristic of the radical Islamists is their tendency to hide behind non-combatents (women and children) when firing their weapons - I believe that is one definition of a coward.
Posted by pyeatte at 12/31/2008 @ 1:56pm
This is pure bullshit. If the Israeli and palestinian leadership really wanted peace, there would be peace. It's about money and power. Peace is not profitable. Call me whatever you want, I don't give a damn about either side. Although, I would rather see US taxpayer funds used for taxpayers in America instead of giving to those who can take care of themselves.
Posted by k330k at 12/31/2008 @ 2:12pm
There is nothing in my post about genocide or killing of any Muslims. I've stated in other posts that jihadist groups like Hamas must be destroyed because they have no room for compromise with Israel. they have codified in their Charter that Israel must be destroyed and all Jews killed in obedience to the Qu'ran. Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/30/2008 @ 2:49pm
Kind of the same way you arrive at the fact that everyone here must hate Jews because we want to find a peaceable solution.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/31/2008 @ 2:18pm
I hope one day you will see your rabid hypocrisy LVL. The fact that you can come on here and call everyone Anti-Semitic and say we hate Jews and then have the audacity to get indignant when someone cause you an Anti-Arab with just as much proof as you leveled would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.
The fact that when I say I am dating a Jew you feel the need to differentiate between Orthodox or Secular so you can still say that I am anti-Semitic is also hilarious. I don't think Anti-Semitic people differentiate between secular Jews or Orthodox Jews I think they hate all Jews. Did I ask you if you wife is Orthodox Black?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/31/2008 @ 2:35pm
You can't even begin to get indignant when someone calls you racist if you do it freely in generalization LVL. You have reprimanded people for calling you racist with no proof before. Maybe you should take some of your own advice.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/31/2008 @ 2:47pm
Objectivity, however, is not a quality LVLIBERTY has.----Posted by TexasFlood at 12/31/2008 @ 12:28pm
Oh, yes, he's deeply concerned for the Arabs. For instance on their faith, he's said-
"Of course I hate Islam. It is the work of the devil designed to steer people away from the true G-d. It is a religion based upon hate. It is a religion who's doctrines require the murder or subjugation of others."----Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/06/2008 @ 1:16pm
Smearing Obama (The Sequel) posted by Ari Berman on 10/06/2008 @ 11:18am
And is able to judge their intentions....
"When you are at war with someone, it is kill or be killed.....
If it is only 1%, it is a deadly prognosis for mankind. That as they have shown is equally if not more so the case even for the rest of Islam.
With 700 million to 1.2 billion according to estimates, that equals 12 million Muslims who are either terrorists or sympathetic to the terrorists and their goals."----Posted by lvliberty1 at 09/18/2008 @ 2:24pm
How Wide Will Bush's War Be? posted by Tom Engelhardt on 09/16/2008 @ 3:27pm
And he has a solution for dealing with them...
"Tell the military to take off their safety's, find some "Patton" style leaders; also, think Dresden; tell the president, his advisors, and the military staff to quit worrying about public opinion and just destroy every enemy-no prisoners."----Posted by LVLIBERTY1 10/21/2007 @ 10:50am
And lest you think AMERICA ranks higher than Israel...
"1. I trust Israeli intelligence more than our own and they disagree with the NIE"----Posted by LVLIBERTY1 02/26/2008 @ 6:40pm
"2. Ultimately Israel is more important than the US in God's plans..... But my first allegiance is to God, with country a very distant second."---Posted by LVLIBERTY1 03/03/
Posted by Mask at 12/31/2008 @ 3:25pm
Their charge was not anti-arab. They said that my first posting was anti-jewish. Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/31/2008 @ 3:21pm
I wasn't talking about their post.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/31/2008 @ 3:41pm
It is a very important distinction and your ignorance on the issue gives me more answers than you think. Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/31/2008 @ 3:22pm
There is no ignorance on the issue LVL. Again you make the wild and stupid assumptions while simultaneously disparaging those who do the same you hypocrite. My point is that a Nazi or an Anti-Semite in the general sense of the worse does not differentiate a secular and orthodox Jew. They hate all Jews. The fact that you think it matters reveals a lot about you LVL. I hope one day you can lift that cloud of ignorance and rabid hatred from around your head and maybe listen to some of the advice and claims you constantly make instead of leveling them to everyone else while ignoring them yourself.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/31/2008 @ 3:45pm
The extreme cruelty of Israel is again on display for all to see. As in Lebanon, Israel indiscriminately bombs civilian areas, knowing but not caring that countless innocent people (children too) are being killed. Perhaps such heartless slaughter is possible because Israel views Arabs as less than human. Rather like the Nazis viewed the Jews. How sadly ironic.
Posted by philbq at 12/31/2008 @ 4:19pm
The fundamental points that seem to escape some of the posters here and virtually the entire mainstream media is that Israel:
a. has economically blockaded Gaza for months, causing enormous suffering;
b. broke the most recent ceasefire, as it has repeatedly done in the past in both Gaza and Lebanon (if memory serves, its record is far worse than Hamas or Hezbollah's when it comes to violating ceasefires);
c. as unproductive as some forms of violence usually are, including terrorism as conducted by individuals, groups or states, people will react with it when they are under occupation, attack or some other kind or constant pressure.
I have no truck with Hamas and its religous ideology, and I may question its tactics and overall strategy, but I damn well stand with the Palestinians in there fight to overcome the Israeli occupation. I also have no truck for anti-semites like rykart ("hebraic rat hole," "God's Chosen---spoiled rotten from the cradle") even when they make a few good points along the way.
The reality is, Israel's Jews cannot be driven out of Palestine, whether the European or American ones who emigrated voluntarilly or the Sephardic Jews driven out of the Arab world (their homes for centuries) in a vile crime during the middle part of the 20th Century. But the Palestinians living under occupation (effective if not in name) or in exile (mostly by Israel's doing) must be allowed to become full citizens of a non-sectarian, democratic state of Palestine, side-by-side with Jew and Druze, and with no established religion or religous discrimination.
How to get there will have to be the subject of another post.
Happy New Year, all.
Posted by cka2nd at 12/31/2008 @ 5:26pm
{modified}
If like the Jews, I had been engaged in trying to kill Arabs, I would understand that there are consequences to my actions.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/31/2008 @ 2:09pm
just imagine, somewhere "over there" you have a counterpart fiddling with a mortar tube. He is firm in his commitment to his values.
Posted by crabwalk at 12/31/2008 @ 5:37pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/31/2008 @ 5:15pm
Again I tell you. Ask a Nazi if they care if the Jew is orthodox or secular. See what they say. It doesn't make a difference if you are an Anti-Semite or a Nazi. It's kind of like how the KKK believes if you have one drop of black blood in you, then you are all bad.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/31/2008 @ 5:50pm
just imagine, somewhere "over there" you have a counterpart fiddling with a mortar tube. He is firm in his commitment to his values. Posted by crabwalk at 12/31/2008 @ 5:37pm
That's impossible. LVL can't put himself in other peoples shoes. He thinks the world is black and white. That he right and everyone who disagree with him is wrong.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/31/2008 @ 5:52pm
A lot of the comments on this website are clearly anti-semitic, and that includes you at times. Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/31/2008 @ 5:54pm
And I think many of your comments are Anti-Arab. And show a genocidal mindset.
The problem is if you contend with my statement you contend with your own. You don't understand that I am basing my statement exactly off yours. That's what's funny about this argument. I'm not arguing whether I am anti-Semitic because I am not and I know that. I don't need to convince you because in the end your opinion makes no difference to me. I could call you a racist all I want it doesn't change your opinion of what you are. I am trying to point out the absurdity of your stance and your statement that everyone on here is an Anti-Semite who is akin to the Nazi's in dealing with the Jews. I hope others on here can see that because you are as zealous as any terrorist member when it comes to your view on things. You are not willing to accept criticism and unwilling to listen to consider any other opinion.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/31/2008 @ 6:04pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/31/2008 @ 5:54pm
Oh and by the way just for my own sake. I am more committed to finding a peaceful and equitable solution for both sides than most because I recognize that this constant bickering and posturing is not going to help either of them. If you want to make the Jews safe then stop them from posturing and making war. It's only going to get better when Muslims and Jews learn to shake and hands change. Because war will only create more zealots. I don't care what religion or race you are. All I want is for people to learn to live together.
You can say that's Anti-Semitic all you want, but the ORTHODOX Jews I am friends with and work with would disagree with you.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/31/2008 @ 6:08pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/31/2008 @ 5:54pm
Oh and LVL. I want to ask you. Who's lives are more important. Innocent Palestinians or innocent Israelis?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/31/2008 @ 6:13pm
But humor me, provide the anti-Jewish posting I have supposedly made.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/31/2008 @ 1:23pm
I didn't say you yourself were being anti-jewish, I said you were the first person to mention anything of the sort.
Posted by TexasFlood at 12/31/2008 @ 12:30pm
If like the Arabs, I had been engaged in trying to kill Jews, I would understand that there are consequences to my actions.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/31/2008 @ 2:09pm
RIGHT.
Because all those who have had their homes and families destroyed by Israeli are guilty of trying to kill Israelis? Seems like you are a tad ignorant of the entire situation.
All I know is if I was minding my own business and somebody, anybody blew my wife and child into little pieces, I would do anything in my power to strike back at that person.
Maybe you're a bigger coward than I originally suspected.
Posted by TexasFlood at 12/31/2008 @ 6:27pm
Israel does not go to war out of a vacuum. It is very easy to avoid war with Israel - don't fire rockets or send suicide bombers into their country trying to kill Jews. It is very easy to live in peace. War is also easy. Your choice. Just don't whine about it. I guess the most dispicable characteristic of the radical Islamists is their tendency to hide behind non-combatents (women and children) when firing their weapons - I believe that is one definition of a coward.
Posted by pyeatte at 12/31/2008 @ 1:56pm
Now now, I never once said Israel DIDN'T have a right to defend itself, just like I never said Palestinians are innocent peasants being raped and taken advantage of by the evil Israelis.
I just think anybody who is willing to say one side of brutal murderous assholes is better than the other side of brutal murderous assholes, is fucked in the head.
Posted by TexasFlood at 12/31/2008 @ 6:30pm
If it is only 1%, it is a deadly prognosis for mankind. That as they have shown is equally if not more so the case even for the rest of Islam.
With 700 million to 1.2 billion according to estimates, that equals 12 million Muslims who are either terrorists or sympathetic to the terrorists and their goals."----Posted by lvliberty1 at 09/18/2008 @ 2:24pm Posted by Mask at 12/31/2008 @ 3:25pm
Ah yes, more delusional conspiracies from a nutcase. Go figure.
Posted by TexasFlood at 12/31/2008 @ 6:31pm
A lot of the comments on this website are clearly anti-semitic, and that includes you at times.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/31/2008 @ 5:54pm
STOP LYING SIR.
Once again, the only person on this comments section mentioning anti-semitism is YOU.
STOP LYING.
Posted by TexasFlood at 12/31/2008 @ 6:41pm
Neither. but it isn't Israel that doesn't want to live in peace.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/31/2008 @ 7:05pm
Not all Palestinians want to destroy Israel. But you are now making a choice about who's life you consider more important. The reason is. If this comes to a war. Somebody's innocent people are going to die. You can avoid the question all you want but the fact that you are saying that innocent Palestinians lives must be sacrificed so Israel can save it's innocent lives. That's the problem. In these types of situations you have to choose whose lives are more important.
"My only zealotry is for my faith and for that I am unapologetic. "
Hmm. So is Hamas'
"You keep saying that I'm anti-Arab, yet I've never had a problem with Arab people. I have Muslim friends whom I've known for 20 years. I have a Muslim neighbor with whom I get along very well."
And yet you keep saying I am Anti-Semitic while I have the same. Maybe you should learn from your own claims instead of making blanket statements?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/31/2008 @ 7:12pm
"You keep saying that I'm anti-Arab, yet I've never had a problem with Arab people. I have Muslim friends whom I've known for 20 years. I have a Muslim neighbor with whom I get along very well."
THAT was exactly what I wanted you to say by the way. That destroys every claim you have made before about me being an anti-Semite because you have no evidence and I as well have Jewish friends, had a Jewish roommate and am dating a Jew.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/31/2008 @ 7:14pm
Now you see rarely do I argue a point of view with you. I generally show to others and hopefully sometimes yourself how absurd your statements can be.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/31/2008 @ 7:14pm
Sure, Israel wants to live in peace after they steal all the land of the Palestinians. It is the peace after imperial conquest and genocide.
Posted by philbq at 12/31/2008 @ 9:52pm
I wonder how people would react to this if the Palestinians were Irish.
Posted by onthehelm at 12/31/2008 @ 10:10pm
All this talk about religion makes me sick. I'm going out and get drunk. Try to have a Happy New Year.
Posted by philbq at 12/31/2008 @ 11:09pm
I really wish that there weren't so many bad arguments floating among the discourse. I want to hit a few of them now (including, in the next post, some weird liberal arguments):
1) "Islam= committment to the destruction of Israel" Why is that? Liberty argues that this is the case because he can find specific verses in the Qu'ran that seem to back up his point of view. First off, as a minister and student of theology he should know that this is a terrible approach (and it doesn't take much perusing of the Old Testament to see why). Lacking both an immediate textual context and a broader theological context, this argument fails. Second, it's just empirically false that most Muslims believe what he's attributing to them. The generalization he's making is utterly unsupported by reality.
Lest anyone think I'm just trying to go after Liberty here, he's just correct in pointing out that the "racism" accusation makes no sense. "Islam" isn't a race, it's a religious framework that can be (and often is) adopted by people of widely varying ethnic origin. Like any idea or set of ideas, it should be open to strong scrutiny.
2) Though I completely agree with Liberty that Christianity entails placing loyalty to God above loyalty to any nation, his basis for a supreme place for Israel in God's plan seems a bit bizarre. One, I don't see how the doctrines of Christianity allocate unique importance to one particular geographical location (for example, does Jesus accept the notion that God is uniquely present in the Jerusalem Temple?). Two, and related, it is a grave mistake to conflate the Israel-entity described in the Old Testament with the modern-day UN-created nation of Israel. Certainly, there's no basis for assuming that Israel's government is automatically in the right.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/01/2009 @ 03:09am
I just want to address two other arguments that have cropped up, one of them pretty extreme and one of them just a muddled back-and-forth linguistic argument:
1) "Hamas isn't terrorist, this is just US propaganda." Really? This argument seems to adopt the "if the US says it, it's probably wrong" premise. But no. To the extent that Hamas deliberately targets innocent people...yes, they are terrorist. Important note: this is not at all mutually exclusive with criticizing Israel's actions (as many in Israel's own government do, contrary to both "opposition to Israeli policy is anti-Semitism" and "Israel is just out for more land, plain and simple.")
2) What exactly is anti-Semitism? This has been thrown around a lot with little to no real analysis. It doesn't mean "defending a policy contrary to the interest of most Jews"; this is why many (though not all; see his correct call- out of rykart) of Liberty's attacks and some of the countervailing responses don't make sense. Anti-Semitism actually requires something more along the lines of a hatred/dehumanization of Jews as a class. Though saying "but I'm not attacking ALL Jews/some can be nice!" (again, see Rykart) isn't enough to not be anti-Semitic, criticizing the actions of Israel's government does not by any stretch of the imagination make one anti-Semitic. No government should be immune to criticism, and if a government really is committing genocide or doing other atrocious things, we shouldn't be afraid to call them out on it. When this turns into dehumanization/demonization of an entire CLASS of people...then you have a real problem.
Examples:
Hamas=evil-->not anti-Arab statement
Arabs=evil-->clearly anti-Arab statement
Same difference applies for anti-Semitism.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/01/2009 @ 03:26am
The war is between Israel and Palestine and not with Hamas
Israel and its proxy have succeeded to trap the world by saying that the war is with Hamas and not with the Palestinians people. This is a complete false. The real war is between the Israelis and the Palestinians legitimate rights to live as decent human beings in their own lands. Dr Richard Diamond, my boss at Boston University Medical Center, has said the land so small to accommodate two people. Simply you can not replace millions of people from their lands with foreigners from all over the world. Israel has succeeded in defeating the PLO in Lebanon in 1982 with their mighty army massacring thousands of innocent people. However Israel has also succeeded in creating more formidable enemies Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas within their territory. In the first Intifada 1987 Palestinian resistance (including Hamas) had used only stones for their struggle. The Israeli Army used excess force against them and crashed the uprising. In The second Intifada Palestinian resistance were cornered to use arm struggle.
I strongly believe that if Israel wins the war against Hamas by crashing them, other more terrifying organizations will appear. I am really afraid that more extremism will be spread not just in Palestine but against innocent Jews who live peacefully in other parts of the world.
Politicians do not read history well. Alqaeda was only formed after more than half a million US soldiers were placed in Saudi Arabia in 1991 Gulf war.
I strongly believe that if there is a real democracy and justice for all people (not just for the privileged sect of the society in this case is the Jews) in Israel then Palestinian people would prefer live as Arab Israelis than as Palestinians. Even further the Jordanians, Sy
Posted by tabuni at 01/01/2009 @ 06:40am
I don't think it's really a case of being for one side or the other....which I suppose we all do tend to choose sides in this conflict, it's a case of what is right. I'm sure all the people on both sides want an end to this violence...it's the leaders who need to come together and have serious discussions and resolve this on going problem. We in the US don't need to be taking sides either, which we have done for years in the favor of Israel...that inflames the people of Palestine and around the world. Peace can never be achieved if we and Israel won't acknowledge Hamas as the chosen leaders here....we can't dictate who we want as the leaders of Palestine, before we will talk to them!!! I thought we believed in democracy and freedom of speech, and the Palestinians have spoken and they chose Hamas....we can't talk all that stuff to other nations if we only use when it suits us.
Posted by Caj at 01/01/2009 @ 09:23am
ahhhh, I almost pine for the Good 'Ol Days when the cons used to wax eloquent about how overthrowing Saddam would lead to peace between Israel and the Palestinians!
"The road to Jerusalem leads through Baghdad,' They said.
It looks like the road to more Islamist militant recruitment ran through Baghdad.
now they say "'The road to Jerusalem leads through Tehran.'"
Be afraid.
Posted by crabwalk at 01/01/2009 @ 09:28am
The International press has condemned Israel for its "disproportionate" response to Hamas rocket attacks. Israel's response to this criticism has been shrill in condemning the "avowed intent" of Hamas to destroy Israel. I have gathered some statistics from Israeli sources. They may help the reader put Israel's actions of the past few days in perspective; + In all of 2008 twice as many Israelis were murdered by other Israelis than were killed in terrorist attacks by Hamas. + Israel bombs killed six times more Palestinians during the past week than the number of Israelis killed by Hamas during all of 2008. + Twice as many Israelis were killed in traffic accidents during this past week than were killed by Hamas rockets during the same period.
Posted by TheMayor at 01/01/2009 @ 11:49am
For me, there is no longer any "Israel" in the sense that this group of people is apparently little more than a band of savages; here is their "foreign minister" today in the New York Times - itself an overt propaganda outlet - denying that there is any humanitarian crisis today in Gaza. This is unthinkable.
" ... Hours before the strike on Mr. Rayyan, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni left for a brief visit to France where she was meeting with President Nicolas Sarkozy and other French officials for "an exchange of opinions and ideas" and to share information about Israel's intentions and plans, an Israeli official said. French leaders are seeking ways to promote a cease-fire to allow humanitarian aid to be delivered into Gaza. But, speaking in Paris, Ms. Livni again rejected the idea.
"There is no humanitarian crisis in the Strip, and therefore there is no need for a humanitarian truce," she said, according to a Foreign Ministry statement quoted by Reuters. She said Israel had been supplying "comprehensive humanitarian aid" to Gaza ..."
No decent human being could say such a thing with a straight face.
Posted by syfriendly at 01/01/2009 @ 12:59pm
I also do not believe that any woman could look at what has transpired in Gaza over the last year and issue such a statement. "Livni" is clearly not possessing of any feminine or maternal identity, whatever the case. No woman could ever be so completely devoid of human compassion or honesty about brutality. Children have been bombed into oblivion and "Livni" denies that there is even crisis. To Hell with "Livni".
Posted by syfriendly at 01/01/2009 @ 1:18pm
TheMayor at 11:49am writes:
<<I have gathered some statistics ... [to] help the reader put Israel's actions of the past few days in perspective
Have you helped the reader put US losses in Iraq in perspective by noting that our 4,100 + body count in Iraq, across five (5) years, is ten times smaller than our 41,000 + deaths EVERY year on US highways?
Did you note that every day of Mayor Dinkins' administration twice (2 x) as many Americans were murdered on the streets of New York City, than died across the bitterest four years in Iraq?
Around 25,000 people die needlessly in our hospitals every year, because their body sores are neglected. That exceeds ten fold the 2,500 who died in the Twin Towers. Does that suggest, 9/11 was no big deal?
You want to confuse the fact that Hamas threw a cease fire to the ground and fired 300 rockets into Israeli villages.
Initially, that only killed 3 people, one Israeli and two Palestinian sisters aged 13 and 5, struck by duds that fell short inside Gaza.
The kind of proportionality you think fair, would have required Israel to slay one Palestinian and two of its own people.
The Hamas cleric Muhsen Abu 'Ita has just reiterated in a televised interview: "The annihilation of the Jews here in Palestine, is one of the most splendid blessings for Palestine."
That is the side you and your friends speak up for, a fanatic mindset openly sworn to obliterate a nation.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 01/01/2009 @ 1:39pm
HappyLonghorn,
It is obvious that your primitive understanding of the Palestinian/ Israeli conflict catalogs your brain in a much smaller class than a Peanut.
In what boundaries do you want Hamas to recognize Israel in? It is Israel that refuses to define its borders. Israel still occupies all the Palestinian West Bank and refuses to pull out. Even in Gaza, the Israelis are still controlling 25% of the total Gaza land in what they call security zone which Palestinians can't enter. They are still controlling all border crossings to Gaza; all its airspace, ports and territorial water. It is Israel that has been starving Gazans and denying them the right to live. The Palestinian President Mahmud Abbas has been negotiating peace with Israel since 1993 and all what he got from the Israelis is more check-points, more annexation of land and more demolition of Palestinian homes. The Israelis have built an Apartheid wall which steals 20% of the best fertile Palestinian land of the West Bank and 80% of its water resources. The Israeli ex-Prime Minister and ex-terrorist, Yitzhak Shamir, once said that he welcomes negotiating with the Palestinians so long as the negotiation never ended. This should tell you about the Israeli seriousness about peace negotiation.
Despite the Israeli propaganda which exaggerates the threat of Hamas, facts pint otherwise. In the last 8 years Hamas rockets have killed 20 Israelis; meanwhile, the Israeli Occupying army have murdered 7000 Palestinians and injured 50,000; mostly children. You and I are partners to this crime, since we give Israel 6 billion of our tax dollars to subsidize the Israeli crimes against the Palestinians.
Posted by CripThink at 01/01/2009 @ 1:50pm
>>>In Israel, the bloody holocaust they've unleashed is an election game, wherein Netanyahu and his slightly more moderate rivals in the Olmert-Livni bloc compete with each other to show who is best at slaughtering Palestinians.<<<
Netanyahu is trying to scare Israeli voters into submission to his candidacy, much like Bush did in 2004.
Hopefully, Israelis will be smart enough to see through this, and realize they need a REAL CHANGE from the tit-for-tat violence politics of the past if they are to ever have meaningful peace with the Palestinian people.
Also, this recent conflict proves what I have been saying all along - Obama must break with AIPAC and engage democratically elected Hamas in direct talks if he is serious about peace between Palestinians and Israelis. You simply can't exclude Hamas and have ANY legitimacy with any peace deal because they control most of the land and population of Palestine.
Posted by Metteyya at 01/01/2009 @ 2:03pm
The argument that "Israel's actions are likely to bolster, not weaken, the very enemy it is fighting" seems to implicitly assume that it would be better if Israel engaged in conduct that would make Hamas weaker, which begs the question of whether Hamas is a "bad" entity. But if we're evaluating bad entities, then we can start by looking at those which constitute the greater evil. Historical patterns of conduct suggest that the Israeli military constitutes a greater threat to world peace and safety than Hamas does. So maybe we should be talking about whether Hamas is doing the right thing to weaken the Israeli military rather than about whether Israel is doing the right thing to weaken its enemy.
Posted by israelkillsbabies at 01/01/2009 @ 2:43pm
but the difference is that my faith does not spell out in writing that another any group of people do not have any right to exist. And unlike Hamas, my faith does not put into writing that any other people are "monkeys and pigs" who must be killed by the faithful in order to satisfy my G-d.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/31/2008 @ 10:22pm | ignore this person | warn this person
lvliberty1,
Those who live in glass house should't throw stones at others.
Do you want me to start listing all the Talmudic insults of non-Jews; especially Christians? Those are numerous and despicable and I don't want to get into religion unless you force me to do that. I suggest that you start showing some objectivity and respect since you truly live in glass house.
Posted by CripThink at 01/01/2009 @ 3:57pm
HappyLonghorn,
Yes, I am fully aware of your dual loyalty, you jerk.
In addition of giving money to Israel; you are probably part of the spying ring which has been stealing American secrets and passing them to Israel. What is your relationship to Jonathan Pollard, Larry Franklin, Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman? Are you member of AIPAC? http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=6890
Posted by CripThink at 01/01/2009 @ 4:13pm
HappyLonghorn,
Because you are speechless jerk, who prefers to utter obscenities instead when get stuck. Go ahead pull out you Anti-Semitism shield and crawl under it.
Posted by CripThink at 01/01/2009 @ 4:25pm
Did you note that every day of Mayor Dinkins' administration twice (2 x) as many Americans were murdered on the streets of New York City, than died across the bitterest four years in Iraq?
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 01/01/2009 @ 1:39pm
Huh? That's like, thousands of people a day, which is preposterous.
Posted by cka2nd at 01/01/2009 @ 4:53pm
Lvliberty1,
But Israel creation and its ongoing genocide against the Palestinians is based on ancient Biblical Prophecy. Hamas is a byproduct of over half a century of Jewish ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homes and land. All these atrocities against the Palestinians are justified under the theory of the Chosen People who were given the land by God. In 1917 the Jewish population in Palestine was less than 50,000. In 1948, and with help of the British Administration of Palestine, that number grew to 500,000. Since then, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians has been going on unabated. Why it is that a Polish Jew who was born in Warsaw, Poland has more right to the land than the Palestinian who was born in Haifa and his family lived there for generations?
What would you do if you were a Palestinian? Say you were born in Jaffa and here comes the Jewish Gang of the Irgun, Haganah, or Stern to push you out of your home and bring a Jewish settler from Russia to live in your Home; would you fight back?
Posted by CripThink at 01/01/2009 @ 5:20pm
What is truly amazing is to witness week after week, month after month, the far left defend a jihadist organization committed to the death of a people and a nation. Perhaps this is the true reality of the "progressive" movement. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/01/2009 @ 4:51pm | ignore this person | warn this person
lvliberty1,
Better to get used to it, the Israeli propaganda machine in the US is losing its monopoly over brain-washing Americans; the internet has broken that monopoly. Rupert Murdoch and associates should go back to Australia or rethink their strategy. The Racist Israel is losing ground; exactly as did the racist White South Africa before its demise. This is a moral revival of humanity against the fascist, brutal, killing machine of Israel. This moral revival is an imperative; you don't need to be progressive to defend the helpless Palestinians from Israeli brutality. I am not even a "progressive", I am a registered Republican.
Posted by CripThink at 01/01/2009 @ 6:06pm
lvliberty1,
I invite readers to go back to search the history of the following Zionist Gangs: The Haganah Gang, the Stern Gang and the Irgun Gang. These gangs were formed with assistance from the British Administration of Palestine to terrorize Palestinians to flee their homes. One of these Gang's legacy is the Massacre of Deir Yassin. Between April 9 and 11 of 1948 the Jewish terrorist Gang Irgun attacked the Palestinian village of Deir Yassin and slaughtered 120 Palestinian Villagers in cold blood. This and tens other massacres committed by these Jewish Gangs had spread fear among Palestinians across the land. An exodus by Palestinians ensued and the Jewish terrorists moved in ten of thousands of European Jews to settle in the vacant Palestinian homes. Famous Jewish terrorists who were leading members of these Gangs:
Menahim Begin (An ex Israeli Prime Minister) was member of the Irgun Terrorist Gang.
Yitzhak Shamir (Another ex Israeli Prime Minster) was member of the Stern Terrorist Gang
Ariel Sharon (An ex Israeli Prime Minister) was member of many of these terrorist Gangs.
The Israeli history is built on terrorism against the Palestinians from day one
Posted by CripThink at 01/01/2009 @ 7:01pm
Crip---you are so right on!!! "LOVELIBERTY" justifies the slaughter of innocent civilians without remorse. (God sees you.) Israel is a cruel imperialist creation conducting genocide (ironically) on their captive Arab subjects, with U.S. funding. Considering the numerous Israeli spies caught tranfering classified info, I am sickened that "LOVELIBERTY" has so little loyalty to this country. I do not believe in dual loyalty.
Posted by philbq at 01/01/2009 @ 9:38pm
I don't see it as dual loyalty really. America's imperialist and racist aims, its lust for Mid East hegemony are largely consistent with Israel's.
Other than this minor point--I'm in full agreement with philbq (and crip).
Death toll in Gaza now over 400.
Posted by rykart at 01/01/2009 @ 10:12pm
It is so disgusting to see all the U.S. politicians (including our great Democrats) turning a blind eye to mass murder in Gaza (or Lebanon), and acting as cheerleaders for Israeli imperialism. When Obama went on bended knee to the AIPAC convention, I knew where he was at. He supports Israeli genocide in Palestine because he knows where the money and power is: the Israeli lobby. Human rights means nothing to him and the other Democrats.
Posted by philbq at 01/01/2009 @ 11:07pm
For the last time, the "Israel lobby" is not some all-powerful entity that directs and controls U.S. foreign policy. This absurd claim has been beaten already many times before, and is still wrong. One, it should be suspect on its face because it sounds eerily like the conspiracy theories propagated into antisemitic narratives like the Protocols. Two, it pretends that countries like Saudi Arabia aren't also influential. Three, it ignores the Iraq War because (as I've pointed out and never gotten adequate response to) Israel did not initially want us to go war with Iraq (because that would set up Iran, who they feared and fear much more, as a greater power in the region).
Also, much of this analysis ignores the fact that when Israel evacuated Gaza (huge swaths of it at the very least), Hamas moved in and used it as a base from which to fire rockets into Israel BEFORE November 2nd. While the ceasefire was operative, they stockpiled weapons to use later on. Hamas has done absolutely nothing to stabilize things (and their failure to recognize even the EXISTENCE of Israel is kind of a problem).
Also...the claim that Israel is attempting to commit genocide is just bizarre because it pretends that citizens (and, for that matter, political parties) within Israel are exclusively Jewish. As has been pointed out already, a substantial number of citizens are Arabs, and there is a fairly influential Arab political party in the Israeli legislature. Are there legitimate establishment-of-religion issues towards religions other than Orthodox Judaism? Yes, and this does need to be dealt with. However, there is not, I repeat not, genocide.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/02/2009 @ 12:53am
That is such complete B.S. The Israeli lobby is real and all-powerful. Everybody in Congress knows it. That's why hardly anyone ever votes against anything that AIPAC wants. Of course the Israeli lobby was pushing for the Iraq war. If you had your t.v. on, you saw the media agents of Israel nonstop leading up to the vote in Congress and the invasion:Richard Perle, Frank Gaffney, peter Beinert, Joe Lieberman, William Safire, Jonah Goldberg, Daniel Levine, et all. In fact, the corporate media was so packed with talking heads telling us that we must remove Saddam because he had WMD, but the corporate media wouldn't allow any anti-war voices on air. Now that it is obvious that there were no WMD (only Israel has nukes), the mouthpieces for Israel are trying to slither out of respondsibility for this unnecessary invasion and occupation that has cost $1 trillion, amillion American and Iraqi lives, and strengthened Iran. And don't play the cheap "anti-Semetic" card. It's a misnomer: historically all people from the area of Palestine are Semites. Hebrew and Arabic are Semite languages. But most of the Jews of Israel are of European descent, and are not Semites. So the slur is not only a cheap attempt to deflect critics of Israeli imperialism, it is also in accurate. Finally, genocide is the proper term for what Israel is doing in the West Bank. It is grabbing the land and will expel or kill the Palestinians who live there. Just like we did to the Native Americans here.
Posted by philbq at 01/02/2009 @ 07:41am
Naturally Israel can't be in the right. Which it is.
What other nation would allow missiles to be launched from a contiguous territory and then simply do nothing?
The U.S.? No way. Any Arab nation? A laugh.
The fact is that Gaza could work for maximum autonomy if it wanted. Try and entice businesses, but that would only work if violence abated
Gaza is in a strategic position -- near Arab nations, proximate to the European Union. It has wonderful beaches, perhaps tourism? A financial sector?
It seems people here, some anyway, have forgotten that Israel unilaterally withdrew its forces hoping that would be taken as an action of good faith. Yes, it exerts control still over the borders. Then again most of those borders are with Israel, so it's hardly too surprising.
If the Gazans stopped firing missiles, stopped importing weapons through the tunnels under Rafah, stopped encouraging terrorism bombers, and rid itself of Hamas, it could have a future; won't be Hong Kong anytime soon, but it could be something other than what it is: A center for terrorism and violence.
Posted by J. Saxon at 01/02/2009 @ 08:37am
Gaza is a prison, with Israel and Egypt the cruel prison guards. Israel temporarily withdrew its troops, but has sealed the borders. That is a prison, with over a million people starving and dying with no medicine. The overarching problem is the Israeli refusal to allow an independent Palestinian state. That is the cause of the militancy in Gaza. The supreme irony is the Jewish state treats Palestinians with such Nazi-like cruelty. And the verbal defenders of Israel try to justify it.
Posted by philbq at 01/02/2009 @ 09:17am
The small amount of food and medicine being allowed into gaza is a drop in a bucket. It is only symbolic to suit Israeli propagandists like you.
Posted by philbq at 01/02/2009 @ 10:02am
The most salient point made on these pages is that Israel has created it's own Warsaw Ghetto, in which it uses tactics the Nazi regime would be most proud.
THAT is the great irony and failure of morals in this debacle that had been going on for 60 years.
If you thought the Shia in Iraq should have risen up and thrown off Saddam, then you should agree the the Palestinians should rise up and trow off the yoke of imprisonment. For cris sake, they need permits to move their donkeys around, women die in labor at check points and people have lived their whole lives in internment camps.
Anybody that comes here and talks about "freedom"or "liberty" and then backs Israelis killing of children as perfectly responsible "defense" is a moral coward and mucho hypocrite. Especially those that use UN resolutions or equivalents from 1924, then refuse to acknowledge the dozens of UN resolutions ignored by the theocratic Israeli government.
Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2009 @ 10:55am
one of dozens
"The Council) Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive and lasting peace in the Middle East; Calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, to rescind it's previous measures and to desist from taking any action which would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and in particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the occupied Arab territories."
George W. Bush, 2004 a demand that "Israel withdraw its troops from the West Bank without delay."
During the period between 1967 and 2000, Iraq was the subject of 69 Security Council resolutions. By comparison, Israel, our closest "ally" in the Middle East, has been the subject of 138 resolutions. Not surprisingly, most of those resolutions call upon Israel to comply with basic principles of international law embodied by the UN Charter. Many of them condemn actions taken by Israel and call upon Israel on more than one occasion to comply with previous resolutions that Israel ignored and continues to ignore to this day.
Resolution 111: " ... 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".
Resolution 127: " ... 'recommends' Israel suspends its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem".
Resolution 162: " ... 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".
Resolution 171: " ... determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".
Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2009 @ 11:06am
And as I also stated, my ultimate loyalty is to G-d, not a nation. Not the US, not Israel.----Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/31/2008 @ 4:40p
Well first, that's a nice little "semantic difference" again too. "I'm not pro-Israel, I'm pro-God's Plan which means doing everything to see that Israel gets everything it wants, even to re-taking Gaza and the West Bank, and the Palestinians can become Israelis or lump it....but that doesn't mean I'm pro-Israel...just pro-God's Plan for Israel!!!"
Ah-ha.
Second, almost everything in my post were QUOTES from you...on both Israel, Islam, and "how to fight the War on Terror"....
I'll let them speak for themselves.
Posted by Mask at 01/02/2009 @ 11:08am
Resolution 111: " ... 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".
Resolution 127: " ... 'recommends' Israel suspends its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem".
Resolution 162: " ... 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".
Resolution 171: " ... determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".
Resolution 228: " ... 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control".
Resolution 237: " ... 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".
Resolution 248: " ... 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".
Resolution 250: " ... 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".
Resolution 251: " ... 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
Resolution 252: " ... 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
Resolution 256: " ... 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".
Resolution 259: " ... 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".
Resolution 262: " ... 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".
Resolution 265: " ... 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan".
Resolution 267: " ... 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem".
Resolution 270: " ... 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon".
Resolution 271: " ... 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".
Resolution 279: " ... 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon".
Resolution 280: " ... 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon".
Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2009 @ 11:15am
Resolution 592: " ... 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".
Resolution 605: " ... 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians.
Resolution 607: " ... 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Resolution 608: " ... 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
Resolution 636: " ... 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
Resolution 641: " ... 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 672: " ... 'condemns' Israel for "violence against Palestinians" at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
Resolution 673: " ... 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations.
Resolution 681: " ... 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 694: " ... 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
Resolution 726: " ... 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.
-------
Yep, Israel is the victim here.
Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2009 @ 11:22am
Not only will this latest killing spree by Israel NOT destroy Hamas, it will increase the enrollment of Al Qaeda.
But, apparently that is the goal of the neo-cons.
Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2009 @ 11:29am
<i>Posted by philbq at 01/02/2009 @ 07:41am </i>
There's a lot to get to here, but I'll hit the genocide argument first because it's really bad. Look, there is no "ethnic" difference between the Arabs who are Israeli citizens and the Arabs who suffer in the Gaza Strip. Therefore, the very existence of Arab citizens and political parties exposes the absurdity of this claim.
As far as the antisemitism goes...yes, I realize that the word it came from is a linguistic term that includes Arabs as well as Jews. I used it more-or-less as a placeholder, and used the "modified" version that is generally understood to refer specifically to anti-Jewish persecution/demonization. I think the "Israel Lobby" fits that a little too well because it posits a shadowy network of agents (very loosely-defined, whose common characteristic seems to be, curiously, "being Jews who also say neocon things") who control the US government for their own purposes.
As far as the rest of the "Lobby" analysis is concerned, "they run everything and everyone knows it" isn't a response. The only real substantive argument made here is that people who you posit represent the Lobby pushed for Iraq. One, this doesn't respond to the "spillover/putting Iran in a strong position" analysis. Two, it assumes that "Jewish + neocon=Lobby," which is a nice way of defining terms to make your argument work. Three, though AIPAC clearly exists, it's not even remotely all-powerful; that assumption ignores the existence of other lobbies like the Saudi lobby. Four, Ariel Sharon actually counseled Bush AGAINST invading Iraq because he was concerned precisely about some of the consequences now (empowering Iraq, having violence spill over, etc.).
Posted by Thrawn at 01/02/2009 @ 11:32am
1923:
Balfour Declaration:
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
---------------------
I think the it is important to keep in mind that much of the former Ottoman empire was split by and ruled over by western powers. THEY made the new rules, often along with Arab rulers the brits/french installed, but often AGAINST the desires of the Arabs that lived in these regions. In 1948 the king of Haus Saud warned that the creation of Israel would be a mistake, he was ignored.
Israel needs to say "these are our borders, anybody within these borders is an Israeli citizen and is due all rights and benefits of citizenship." Then the rest of us should wash our hands of the region.
Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2009 @ 11:40am
I think everyone has forgotten that, without Israel, there would be no Hamas. The group that originally led to the development of Hamas was encouraged by the far-right in Israel to counter al Fatah. It seemed logical at the time, very much akin to the US support for anti-Soviet elements in Afghanistan (although we know how well that turned out in the end). But a good theory doesn't always make for the best reality, especially when the equation involves a profit margin and domestic agendas that profit from terrorism/counter-terrorism. (Just look at Vietnam.) Terrorism is terrorism. Until the notion of "good terrorist" versus "bad terrorist" is removed from the list of problem solving options without exception, we will continue to see innocent people killed. This is especially true when both sides of the equation require an "enemy" to survive economically and politically. Far-right elements with Israel maintain power and profit from the continuation of this conflict as do their counterparts in groups like Hamas. In this case, both groups can convince a crowd that their cause is just. And to some degree, only the most biased would say it was improper for one or the other to defend themselves. But their methods? Their methods are killing innocent men, women, and children. Bottom line: The peoples of Palestine and Israel deserve better. A child killed by Hamas is the same as a child killed by Israel. Enough of this "Cold War" as industry model is enough!
Posted by Infokronea at 01/02/2009 @ 11:44am
Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2009 @ 11:22am
Another hypocrisy for those who use "He violated 17 UN resolutions" for why we had to invade Iraq.
Posted by Mask at 01/02/2009 @ 12:15pm
Not only will this latest killing spree by Israel NOT destroy Hamas, it will increase the enrollment of Al Qaeda.
But, apparently that is the goal of the neo-cons.
Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2009 @ 11:29am
The only problem is LVLIB and HAPPY will never find the balls to condemn open oppression of Palestinians by Israelis.
LVLIB likes to cherry pick bits and pieces of rhetoric written/spewed by religious fanatics (much like himself, go figure), and then wants to act like that ONE person somehow represents the entire Arab or muslim community.
5 seconds later, he'll whine and complain about being grouped in with those nasty fundamentalist christians, and aren't we all just so IGNORANT not to know the distinction. On top of it all, he'll manage to completely miss how that makes him look completely full of shit.
lol
He's a hypocrite, but at least it's good for a chuckle from time to time.
I wonder if Mask can pull out any quotes of LVLIB or HAPPY or their friends rallying for war based on the fact that Saddam would not obey the UN, while in the same breath, decrying the UN as a haven for corrupt and evil people.
It must be nice to be so selective about one's outrages.
Still waiting on the Marxist Barack Obama to start filing you people into concentration camps. At least it'll be quiet for a while.
Posted by TexasFlood at 01/02/2009 @ 1:32pm
Posted by TexasFlood at 01/02/2009 @ 1:32pm
Usually, LVLIB is smarter than to point out the "He violated 17 UN resolutions" excuse for the invasion of Iraq. He KNOWS that it'd get thrown back in his face on Israel and his general dis-like of the UN.
Plenty of others on the Right who do though. Typically, when you point out that ISRAEL has violated numerous UN resolutions, they'll skip to the NEXT excuse ("He WOULD have reconstituted his WMD program...he killed 100K Kurds...he had invaded his neighbors!") and suddenly act like they never said anything about "violating UN resolutions".
BTW, the UN resolutions thing is really the DUMBEST move the neo-cons ever came up with...since most of them (if not all) LOATHE the UN and would love to see it gone or atleast us out of it. And their use of "Saddam violating UN resolutions" just shows how desperate they were to come up with ANY "crediblity" for the invasion...even citing an organization they wanted us to get out of YEARS BEFORE the UN had made any resolutions against Saddam.
Posted by Mask at 01/02/2009 @ 1:43pm
Posted by Mask at 01/02/2009 @ 1:43pm
Oh I'm quite familiar with that so-called argument. It has been the auto-argument of many an internet contrarian.
In the end, it ain't nothing but a thing. LVLIB et al are the same cold war leftovers populating blogs all across the internets. Absolutely terrified of the fact that their outdated and self-contradicting viewpoints are becoming more irrelevant with each passing minute.
It's just a shame they have to take out all of that anxiety and aggression they can't show in the real world, on all of us.
LVLIB is especially scary (and vocal) with his "US VS. THEM!" mentality. Perhaps that's why I pick on him so much.
Posted by TexasFlood at 01/02/2009 @ 2:05pm
THRAWN --- you come back with pathetic evasions: Genocide IS being inflicted on all Palestinians who are not Israeli citizens. The Israeli lobby ALWAYS gets what it wants in Congress. Obama had to go to AIPAC on bended knee to be approved for the nomination. To use "anti-Semite" for "anti-Jew" IS inaccurate and cheap. (The defenders of Israeli aggression use it for anyone who speaks out about Israeli brutality.) And the Israeli lobby DID push the Iraq war. I STAND BY ALL MY POINTS.
Posted by philbq at 01/02/2009 @ 2:34pm
Posted by TexasFlood at 01/02/2009 @ 2:05pm
In LL's (and other righties) mind-set, everyhting is "WOrld War-II"...."bad guy in your way"?
You roll in with the tanks, drop bombs, demolish buildings, kill everything in sight (often "regretably and their own fault" killing civilians)....and you "win the war".
And if you aren't winning, it simply means you didn't drop "enough" bombs or kill "enough" people.
Even by their own examples contradict their viewpoint....they often cite Petraeus and "the Surge". But even that wasn't about "rolling tanks into enemy strongholds" and "blasting away insurgents in street-to-street fighting (like Stalingrad or something)". It was about security zones and sweeps...not "Patton and the 4th rolling into Bastogne".
Just as his "political solutions" are simplistic even ridiculous. His idea on "peace in the Middle East" is....the Palestinians GIVE UP Gaza and the West Bank to Israel, even to agreeing to become Israeli citizens. If they don't 100% surrender, it's 'not Israel's fault that they have to kill them...it's their own hardheadness in not giving into God's Plan!'
Which is also interesting given his attack (Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/30/2008 @ 12:16pm) on the "radical nature" of Islam where it concerns Israel....that according to HIS religious views, Israel cannot give up one inch of "God's Promise" to the Palestinians!
Or his Islamophobic resolution to how Iraq can remain peaceful and free...despite his proclamations against the Islamic faith....LVLIB's "possible" solution"?
The Iraqis convert to Christianity!!!
Posted by Mask at 01/02/2009 @ 2:54pm
Posted by Mask at 01/02/2009 @ 2:54pm
Just imagine how it would blow his mind if he realized that his saying he hates Muslims is no different than my saying I hate Christians!
I wouldn't hold my breath however lol.
Posted by TexasFlood at 01/02/2009 @ 4:01pm
Except I've never once said I hate Muslims. I don't hate anyone and have repeatedly said so. I hate evil and I hate evil ideologies, but not people. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/02/2009 @ 4:42pm
Weird how you can make that differentiation when it's your beliefs but you are entirely capable of doing that when it's other peoples beliefs. For instance you call anyone who criticize Israel's government's actions as being Anti-Semitic. Never seeing the disjointedness and the pure ignorance of reality of that statement.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/02/2009 @ 5:17pm
"capable"
Meant to be incapable.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/02/2009 @ 5:49pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/02/2009 @ 4:
So, it'd be okay if Texas said he "hated CHRISTIANITY"...with no insult to Christians, right?
Posted by Mask at 01/02/2009 @ 7:35pm
Posted by Mask at 01/02/2009 @ 7:35pm
Well it's not a hateful ideology.
We can just ignore the past millennium of war and unspeakable acts committed in the name of Christianity.
LVLIBERTY doesn't "hate" anybody. Now he'll try to semantically worm his way out of post after post of anti-arab and anti-muslim rhetoric.
What a joke.
Guess I'm just anti-semitic.
Posted by TexasFlood at 01/02/2009 @ 8:01pm
And I don't hate Christians. I just hate liars and snake-oil salesmen.
It's just unfortunate that there are so many "Christians" that fall into either of those categories.
Posted by TexasFlood at 01/02/2009 @ 8:04pm
You fellows can't mount an argument without outright lies, as TexasFlood's slandering of lvliberty1, aboutr Muslims, or this 11:06aml crabwalk complaint:
<<During the period between 1967 and 2000, Iraq was the subject of 69 Security Council resolutions. By comparison, Israel, our closest "ally" in the Middle East, has been the subject of 138 resolutions.>>
He omits that most of those UN resolutions faulting Israel were GENERAL ASSEMBLY votes participated in by some of the worst police states and tyrannies in the world. Whereas the condemnations of Iraq were UN SECURITY COUNCIL resolutions which don't simply express the pique of a mob but of the UN's highest body. Those have an entirely different authority and standing in law.
Furthermore, there are two kinds of UNSC resolutions. Those issued under Chapter 6 require negotiation between the contending parties. Chapter 7 resolutions are beyond requesting negotiations, conciliation etc., they demands obedience and compliance, period. Iraq was in default of many of those final, Chapter 7 resolutions. Israel is not. Security Council chastising of Israel is ever via Chapter 6.
Crabwalk's ignorance, stupidities and lies are endless. So what if Israel lacks a written constitutuion, so does the UK. Stalin gave the USSR a magnificent constitution in 1936; much good it did his people. But when Hamas writes a constitution that vows the obliteration of Israel, that doesn't count.
Crabwalk thinks the problem is that Israel has not defined its borders when the problem is that most of the Arabs, certainly Hamas and Hezbullah, are on the record as opposed to any sovereign Jewish state in the region, regardless of its borders.
Where is there a single post here where any of you guys speak honestly and factually?
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 01/02/2009 @ 8:36pm
>>>Crabwalk thinks the problem is that Israel has not defined its borders when the problem is that most of the Arabs, certainly Hamas and Hezbullah, are on the record as opposed to any sovereign Jewish state in the region, regardless of its borders.<<<
WRONG!
Hamas leaders are on record as saying they would consider a Jewish state based on the pre'67 war borders as a resolution to the 50-year conflict.
The problem is that AIPAC has been pushing this "no talking to Hamas nonsense" so we never get to hear what their democratically elected leadership would accept - at least not in the mainstream US press.
Posted by Metteyya at 01/02/2009 @ 8:41pm
Hamas: We'll recognize Israel within '67 borders
Faction's spokesman at Palestinian parliament voices pragmatic, surprising declarations during Ramallah conference; 'we, Hamas, are committed to calm up to this moment,' he says
Ali Waked Published: 05.11.06, 00:19 / Israel News
The Hamas movement is ready to recognize agreements signed with Israel, and in fact recognize Israel, but only within the '67 borders, senior Hamas member Khaled Suleiman said Wednesday.
According to Suleiman, the movement will be ready to accept a Palestinian state inside the '67 borders and will not operate to thwart diplomatic negotiations held by Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas.
In a Ramallah conference, the Hamas faction spokesman in the Palestinian Legislative Council said that "the Palestinian government is unauthorized according to the Palestinian constitution to negotiate with Israel, but does not oppose a possibility that Abbas will do so."
"All the government can do is reach a calm, and we, Hamas, are committed to a calm up to this moment," he added.
Suleiman noted, however, that his government will not arrest any Palestinian gunmen under any condition. He added that this was unacceptable as long as Israel continues its targeted killings and enters Palestinian towns and communities.
Referring to the international Quartet's demands of the Hamas-led government to recognize agreements signed by the PA with Israel, Suleiman said that "these agreements are a reality which we view as such, and therefore I see no problem."
In spite of these remarks, Suleiman was skeptical regarding the chances to reach a solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict through negotiations.
Posted by Metteyya at 01/02/2009 @ 8:47pm
(continued from above)
In spite of these remarks, Suleiman was skeptical regarding the chances to reach a solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict through negotiations.
"The problem is not the Hamas victory, but rather the dead end the negotiations reached since Camp David and the Israeli claim regarding the absence of a Palestinian partner. We see Israel is only interested in a Palestinian partner who will be ready to accept its policy of unilateral moves," he said.
Posted by Metteyya at 01/02/2009 @ 8:48pm
Why Hamas' recognition of Israel is reported widely in Israel, Europe and the Arab world but NOT in the US should be cause for concern of all who love a truly "free" press.
Posted by Metteyya at 01/02/2009 @ 8:51pm
Metteyya at 01/02/2009 @ 8:51pm says:
<< According to Suleiman, [senior Hamas member Khaled Suleiman] said Wednesday. the movement will be ready to accept a Palestinian state inside the '67 borders >>
You are a brazen liar Mettayya. You are quoting a 11 May 2006 statement by a nobody.
The reason the US, the EU, the Quartet, and countries like Egypt and Jordan oppose Hamas is because Hamas rejects Israel's right to exist and the legitimacy of previous Palestinian agreements with Israel.
Hamas has been firing its rockets into Israel because she has vowed not to relent in obeying the mandate of its charter: to "obliterate" Israel.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 01/02/2009 @ 9:39pm
I just found this gem from crabwalk at 12/31/2008 @ 07:23am:
<<Israel has had the same strategy for 60 years. How's that working for them? >>
Which other country began with so little, has overcome so any enemies, and has achieve so much so much in 60 years?
In 1948 a UN consensus, which included the USSR awarded 600,000 survivors of the gas chambers a crust of land in Palestine. Immediately the Arabs spokesman predicted: "There will be a momentous slaughter, a war of extermination." He promised that the partition line between the Arabs and the Jews "will be nothing but a line of fire and blood." The Palestinian leader, Husseini addressed the Arab world thus: "I declare a jihad, come my Muslim brothers, slaughter the Jews, slaughter them all."
That war, instead of wiping out the Jews, caused 600,000 Arabs to flee and left Israel with more land than the original partition resolution decreed.
In May 1967 the Egyptians, drew up their tanks at Israel's borders and along with Syria, Jordan and Iraq announced that the previous defeats would now be avenged and that Israel's last hour was at hand. The resulting war left the Jews in possession of the W/Bank, Gaza and the Golan. They offered to return it in a land for peace deal. The Arabs at Khartoum replied with the 3 NO.
Today Israel, has a high tech economy, a $185 billion GDP. He 7 million people live in a real democracy surrounded by 300 million Arabs in police states. No Arab society enjoys both a decent standard of living and human rights, with one exception, the 1.2 million Israeli Arabs.
That is what Israel has achieved, in 60 years. It is the Palestinians, whose single minded devotion to exterminating the Jews has achieved nothing. And you support them, and their goal.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 01/02/2009 @ 10:03pm
And you support them, and their goal. Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 01/02/2009 @ 10:03pm
Which, for most Palestinians involves being able to drink clean water, go to work without standing at checkpoints for hours or days, not being picked up and "interrogated" by Israelis, having a say in the government that rules them and basic control over their lives.
I am a bad man for wanting them to have so much.
Tell us, oh wise HUGGY, how many Security Council resolutions regarding Israel has the US vetoed or caused to me withdrawn with threat of veto?
How many kids have to die till you will feel your vengeance sated ? I ask the same of the fucknut launching a rocket into a neighborhood. I can ask either of you and expect the same answer, as you will kill each others children and clamor for "justice" for the deaths of yours while you celebrate the deaths of theirs. And maybe 60 years from now you can put that on the list of accomplishments, your side killed more of their children. Congratulations on reaching the pinnacle of civilization.
Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2009 @ 10:35pm
..."caused to be..."
Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2009 @ 10:37pm
Plans within plans within plans.
Posted by Mask at 12/30/2008 @ 10:13am
This first post is perhaps the only intelligent and insightfull comment made on this entire post.
On the other end of the spectrum we have RIO, who is really outdoing itself lately.
I guess that's what happens when you guzzle directly from the nozzle on the Koolaid Keg..
Posted by chaoszen at 01/02/2009 @ 11:12pm
It is really rather simple in this case. And the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is rarely simple.
If Israel would end the intolerable blockcade, the Palestinians would most likely stop firing steroidal bottle rockets at Israel. And Israel would have no excuse to grind them into dust.
On the surface the blocade seems to be the crux of the matter. And that is precisely the intolerable situation that Israel will not concede. Otherwise they would have no excuse to trounce a weaker opponent and keep those dollars coming in..
Plans within plans within plans.
Posted by chaoszen at 01/02/2009 @ 11:26pm
<i>Posted by philbq at 01/02/2009 @ 2:34pm </i>
Simply making accusations against a particular group should not be enough in this context. In addition to this thread involving discussion, where persuasion means backing up the assertions you make, accusations above all should have to be proven. And of all the kinds of accusations, those that have an extraordinarily nasty history should not be made without pretty substantial proof.
So where is it? The all-powerful Israel Lobby whose repeated concerns and thoughts about Iraq were virtually ignored, unless "the Lobby" is simply defined as those who are "Jewish + neocon"? The genocide of all Arabs near Israel...except for the more than a million who are treated as full citizens?
I don't at all believe that you're an antisemite. Yes, I realize that this term is just a linguistically incorrect term, minus the "-", but it's the only term I know of that is clearly understood in common usage to mean "anti-Jewish" in the sense of dehumanization/otherization. And yes, I recognize that the state of Israel is not even close to perfect; I am, believe it or not, very troubled by many of the things they are doing. I would just ask that when you engage these questions, you provide very strong evidence for those accusations that have historically been tools for corrupt and destructive purposes. I do not simply believe that everything Israel does is right; I ask only that we tread carefully around accusations with the kind of history that these have. The Israeli governing officials may be wrong, and they may be going distinctly beyond the bounds of what's morally justified, but they are not "new Nazis," and they're not trying to exterminate any ethnic population.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/03/2009 @ 01:27am
crabwalk wrote @ 10:35pm:
<< I am a bad man for wanting ... Palestinians being able to drink clean water, go to work without standing at checkpoints for hours or days, not being picked up and "interrogated" by Israelis...>>
You lie. If you cared about the Palestinians and not about anti Israel propaganda you would know: -
One of the first things the Israelis undertook in the W/B and Gaza in 1967 was to lay pipes and connect villages and towns to their water carrier. People no longer had to rely on local pumps, often connected to fetid wells. For the first time they had clean running water, and their average water consumption per man tripled. The Jews strung electric wire and for the first time Pal villages had electricity. Education was mandated for all and abysmal Pal literacy was soon the best in the Arab world. The Jews set up baby clinics and skly high pre 1967 infant mortality figures crashed. Given access to hospitals in Israel, Palestinian life expectancy added two years. For the first time they had access to a judicial system that was not corrupt. Income doubled within ten years via hundreds of small Israeli/Paelestinian partnerships and over 100,000 men found high paying jobs in Israel.
That and more is in UN statistics as layed out by the esteemed Neue Zuricher Zeitung.
You haven't the least interest in Palestinians. You pretend to virtue when your priority is your bigotry. Tell me how much you worry about the water supply in Darfur. How much you grieve over 200,000 murdered Darfurians, 2 million black African farmers driven off their lands, not 6o years ago, but now! ? You disgusting hypocrite.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 01/03/2009 @ 02:23am
Thrawn --- Of course I am not anti-Jew. I am pro-civil rights. I believe Palestinians should have their own independent nation living in peace beside Israel. I would like Palestinians to be able to travel to their work without going thru checkpoints. I would like Palestinians to be able to travel on the same roads as Israelis in the West Bank, instesd of the current aparthied system. I don't like the land of Palestinians being stolen for illegal settlements. I don't like Palestinian homes being bulldozed thru collective punishment, which is a violatin of the Geneva Accords. I oppose the illegal and cruel wall being built of Palestinian land, walling people off from their work and their farms. I want freedom for all people, including Palestinians. It is that simple.
Posted by philbq at 01/03/2009 @ 07:34am
I encourage all supporters of Israel here to go to Huffingpost.com and read the excellent piece by M.J. Rosenberg, Director of the Israel Policy Project, called "Where is Israel Going?" Here is a Jewish voice speaking wisdom about the furure of Israel. All of Israel's problems stem from the occupation, and will be solved with an independent Palestinian state. Not all Israeli voices are Zionist loonies, thank God.
Posted by philbq at 01/03/2009 @ 07:54am
Typo: That's huffingtonpost.com
Posted by philbq at 01/03/2009 @ 08:26am
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 01/03/2009 @ 02:23am |
I am a hypocrite, I never deny it.
If the US had not gone off hunting AQ in Iraq, and causing it to grow, maybe some of those blessed troops could have gone into Darfur.
But, that was called anti-American in 2003. Which side of that argument were you on?
Again I ask, how is Israels strateegery working? They have doing the same thing for 60 years, expecting different results. Same with Hamas. only for less time.
If you learned to read you would know that I have no patience for either side of this conflict, I think they are both armed children. It just happens that Israel should be the grown up here first, they hold the aces, they have the upper hand and control the outcome. Regardless of what happened in '68 or '24, today the Palestinians live in a ghetto of Israels making. They are held hostage by a minority of Israleis and Palestinians.
When you goin' to Iraq Huggy? the road to peace in Jerusalem leads through Baghdad, remember?
Posted by crabwalk at 01/03/2009 @ 10:02am
Hamas killed... it looks like zero this time
Israel killed 400
AQ killed 2700
the US killed 700,000.
Hamas is still growing
AQ is still growing
intent means squat. Results matter.
Pride kills
Pride kills kids
do feel proud that you kill kids? Does that make you better than Usama? Do you strive to be just slightly better than Usama, Saddam and Yasar? If so, you are doing great cons!Keep it up, Hamas and AQ could not ask for better friends, they don't care about children either, they will use them as pawns just as you do.
Posted by crabwalk at 01/03/2009 @ 10:09am
HUGGY, do you use products made in China? Do you shop by price only, leading you to eschew American made products in favor of cheaper Communist made products? Do you support MFN status for China?
If so, you support the regime in Darfur. And Burma.
But maybe you are like HAPPY, as long as the dividend checks come in on time, he don't care who dies. God Bless America.
Posted by crabwalk at 01/03/2009 @ 10:14am
HeyCrab...I notice there is no response to my last post suggesting that the cheerleaders of Israeli imperialism read a moderate Jewish opinion at Huffingtonpost. My theory is that the fanatical Zionists (some of whom infect this site) don't want to hear or acknowledge sensible Jewish voices. They only want opinions that support their imperialist obsession. What do you think of my theory?
Posted by philbq at 01/03/2009 @ 11:50am
philbq @ 07:54am wrote:
<<go to Huffingpost.com and read the excellent piece by M.J. Rosenberg ... All of Israel's problems stem from the occupation >>
The conclusion of your "excellent" piece is ridiculous.
It ignores that the "occupation" was brought on by this pre-occupation mind set:
"...we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel." – President Nasser of Egypt, November 18, 1965
Leaders of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, the PLO, etc, spoke thus in May 1967:
"Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight . . . "
"We will not accept any ... coexistence with Israel."
"The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel . . . . standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. ... the critical hour has arrived." –
"This is our chance Arabs, to deal Israel a mortal blow of annihilation, to blot out its entire presence in our holy land"
"The Arab people is firmly resolved to wipe Israel off the map"
"The Gulf of Aqaba, by the dictum of history and the protection of our soldiers, is Arab, Arab, Arab."
"The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear – to wipe Israel off the map. "
"We want war. War is the only way to settle the problem of Israel. The Arabs are ready."
Upon Israel's offer, 2 weeks after the war, to swap the conquered land for peace, the Arabs replied: No peace, no compromise, no negotiations.
Sure, "All of Israel's problems stem from the occupation."
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 01/03/2009 @ 1:27pm
crabwalk
You are not aware of the foolishness of your gibber, and the nakedness of your malice. I am an idiot for trying to talk to you.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 01/03/2009 @ 1:34pm
>>>Hamas has been firing its rockets into Israel because she has vowed not to relent in obeying the mandate of its charter: to "obliterate" Israel.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 01/02/2009 @ 9:39pm<<<
You are simply parroting the "official line" we hear in the US mainstream press. If read all of the other newspapers from around the world during that May-June '06 timeframe, including the official Hamas document that was the source for the stories, you would know that you have hoodwinked by the AIPAC dominated US press like most Americans.
Just like immediately after 9/11, the Israeli bombings inside Syria, and the recent episode in Georgia and South Ossetia, the US press can NOT be trusted when the story concerns Jews and Israel.
But don't take my word for it, start reading news around the world and then compare it to the crap we are getting here in the US concerning news on Israel.
Posted by Metteyya at 01/03/2009 @ 5:15pm
LongHorn,
It is only new Nazis like you who enjoy and support the Israeli genocide against the children of Gaza. Your idol racist state, Israel, has created a new Warsaw Ghetto in Gaza. It is an irony of history that the Jewish children of the Holocaust and the Warsaw Ghetto are repeating the same war crimes against the Palestinians today.
Have you learned your lesson from Lebanon yet? Few hundred fighters of Hezbollah have kicked Israel's ass so hard, despite Israel's air superiority and despite murdering over a thousand Lebanese civilians. Israel will not fair better in Gaza, despite its relentless campaign to terrorize the civilians there. The Israelis have killed near 500 Palestinians and injured over 2500, mostly civilians, but it has not broken the will of the Palestinians to fight. The Palestinians are fighting for their homes and the land they lived in for generations, they can't be defeated. The Israelis, who came from New York, Poland and Russia don't belong there in Palestine. Look what happened to racist South Africans, even after two hundred years of oppressing the black natives. They have gone to the trash heap of history. This will be the fate of racist Israel
Posted by CripThink at 01/03/2009 @ 5:28pm
<i>Posted by Metteyya at 01/03/2009 @ 5:15pm </i>
What does the Georgia/South Ossetia incident have to do with Jews and Israel? And, as I've had to ask many times and have NEVER gotten ANY answer for...what is your basis for believing that AIPAC "dominates the press." And no, saying "most people in the press like Israel" is not enough. If you're going to claim a clear and deliberate link, you have to back it up.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/03/2009 @ 5:55pm
Thrawn,
The control of the Jewish Lobby in America is not limited to the media only, but extends to all major facets of America's cultural life. The quote below tells the story:
Jeffrey Blankfort quotes Benjamin Ginsberg from his book, The Fatal Embrace: Jews and the State: "Since the 1960s, Jews have come to wield considerable influence in American economic, cultural, intellectual and political life. Jews played a central role in American finance during the 1980s, and they were among the chief beneficiaries of that decade's corporate mergers and reorganizations. Today, though barely 2 per cent of the nation's population is Jewish, close to half its billionaires are Jews. The chief executive officers of the three major television networks and the four largest film studios are Jews, as are the owners of the nation's largest newspaper chain and the most influential single newspaper, the New York Times." Then Blankfort adds: "That was written in 1993. Today, ten years later, ardently pro-Israel American Jews are in positions of unprecedented influence within the United States and have assumed or been given decision-making positions over virtually every segment of our culture and body politic. This is no secret conspiracy. Regular readers of the New York Times business section, which reports the comings and goings of the media tycoons, are certainly aware of it. Does this mean that each and every one is a pro-Israel zealot? Not necessarily, but when one compares the US media with its European counterparts in their respective coverage of the Israel-Palestine conflict, the extreme bias in favor of Israel on the part of the US media is immediately apparent." End of quote.
Posted by CripThink at 01/03/2009 @ 6:14pm
<i>Posted by CripThink at 01/03/2009 @ 6:14pm </i>
This is an extraordinarily telling post. Its true colors become all too clear right at the outset, when the alleged entity is called NOT "the ISRAEL Lobby" but "the JEWISH Lobby." Then, the entire post is directed at chronicling the "massive Jewish influence" in all areas of our cultural life.
I wonder how many people are familiar with (and again, forgive the term; it's the closest available) early German antisemitism. Its accusations were virtually identical to those being made here (except change "German culture" to "American culture").
It's one thing to argue that Israel's actions in Gaza are morally unjustified; I have no problem with that line of argument whatsoever, and think that to SOME extent its criticisms are fair and on-point. This, on the other hand, is something else entirely. What CripThink provides here is nothing more than warmed-over German antisemitism translated into an American forum. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you...the 21st Century Protocols.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/03/2009 @ 6:36pm
Posted by crabwalk at 01/02/2009 @ 11:15am: the list of UN resolutions against Israel. The problem is, it simply shows the one-sided UN bias against Israel. It makes it sound like Israel got up one sunny Sunday morning and decided to attack and kill for the hell of it. Not one single reason of why attacks and wars are fought. The current UN effort is being broadcast as I am writting...same worthless junk, no demand for Hamas to stop its rocket attacks, just condem Israel - what BS!
Posted by pyeatte at 01/03/2009 @ 7:09pm
Thrawn,
I do realize that truth is awfully inconvenient sometimes, but just before you unleash your infamous anti-Semitism outcry, you ought to read my remarks again. Those were not my words; those were the words of the Jewish Author: Benjamin Ginsberg.
Posted by CripThink at 01/03/2009 @ 7:16pm
<i>Posted by CripThink at 01/03/2009 @ 7:16pm </i>
That isn't good enough, or are you insufficiently familiar with J.K. Rowling's character Voldemort? Hateful and destructive ideologies deserve to be condemned no matter who speaks them. Perhaps you can explain how the notion of a still-poorly defined "Jewish lobby" with characteristics indistinguishable from the "Jewish conspiracy" of 19th-century German antisemitic thought can be seen as anything but a repetition of old trash that should have disappeared more than 50 years ago.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/03/2009 @ 7:44pm
Thrawn,
Yes, but bashing people based on their religion and ethnicity should be deplored based on universal moral principles and against all people, not when it only targets Jews. Would you condemn the Anti-Palestinian, Anti-Arab, Anti-Muslims bashing which is spread by Jewish movie Producers and directors in Hollywood and the mainstream media?
And how about the anti Arab racism in Israel? It is a known fact that the dehumanization of Arab and Arab-bashing in Israel is responsible for the strong public sentiment in Israel which condones murdering Arab civilians in cold blood. This sentiment was demonstrated in 1948, 1967, in the Israeli wars on Lebanon and the current war on Gaza.
In the early 1980's, General Rafael Eitan, the Chief of Staff of the Israeli Forces at the time announced that the "Arabs were stoned cockroaches in a bottle". He got away with it, he also got away with the murder of many thousands of Lebanese civilians in the 1st Lebanon war.
Posted by CripThink at 01/03/2009 @ 8:19pm
<i>Posted by CripThink at 01/03/2009 @ 8:19pm </i>
Absolutely; I could not possibly agree more. Bashing of Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians as groups should be roundly condemned. While I am completely fine with having and expressing strong disagreements against a particular religion's tenets, hatred of broad swaths of people based on their religion, race or ethnicity is morally deplorable.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/03/2009 @ 8:49pm
Thrawn --- Never will you hear a voice critical of Israel allowed as a guest on a television news show. Instead you hear apologists for Israel. Of course the corporate media bans the great thinkers of the Left generally: Chomsky,Parenti,Cockburn,Zinn,etc. (It would be dangerous to the propaganda system to have the public stimulated into thinking free thoughts.) For "liberals, they allow Peter Beinart(a Zionist warlover if ever there was) or Joe Leiberman (Israel's most faithful agent in Congress.)Guests are carefully selected to give the pro-Israel spin on the Gaza massacre.
Posted by philbq at 01/03/2009 @ 10:31pm
Glen Greenwald of Salon.com has a very perceptive piece on the complete pro-Israel opinion in U.S. politicians (I read it at commondreams.org.) The most recent Rassmussen poll shows that a clear majority of Democratic voters (55%/33%)oppose the Israeli bombardment of Gaza. But tellingly all the Democratic leaders in Congress blame Hamas for all the killing and carnage in Gaza. That should demonstrate the bias for Israeli violence. Pelosi only talks about the security of Israel, but does not talk about the security of the U.S. This fanatical loyalty to Israel is widespread among U.S. politicians. They know where the money and power are at. Slaughtering Muslims cannot improve U.S. security in the big picture, but U.S. politicians have allegience primarily to Israel. And the bombs are paid for by U.S. taxpayers. Dennis Kucinich has spoken out against the cruel Israelimassacre, but he is not allowed on the media. If you doubt the pro-Israel media bias, you must be very stupid or dishonest.
Posted by philbq at 01/03/2009 @ 11:00pm
<i>Posted by philbq at 01/03/2009 @ 10:31pm </i>
If all of this is the case, then why did Mearsheimer and Walt's book (a work with very little original scholarship) end up near the top of the bestseller list?
No one doubts that Israel has at least some fair measure of influence; a number of different lobbies (including, as no one has yet responded to, the Saudi lobby) influence our policy. However, it's far from clear that the "Israel Lobby" possesses anything near dominance over policy. For example, Mitchell Bard conducted a study (between 1945 and 1984) in which he found that when "The Lobby" was pushing for something, they won 60% of the time. They won 95% of the time when the president was with them, and 27% of the time when the president was not with them. That's a fair amount of influence, but it's nothing near the massive conspiracy that you seem to posit.
And also, as a final note, saying "you have to be stupid or dishonest not to buy X" isn't an argument.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/03/2009 @ 11:20pm
I do not wish to be rude, but to deny the all-powerful influence of AIPAC in Congress is rather like denying gravity because it cannot be seen. You cannot name a vote in Congress that went against the wishes of the Israeli lobby. The Saudis are no comparison: influencial friends of Israel are across the media, press, and entertainment business. Saudis are not. When you deny the pervasive influence of AIPAC, I wonder if you are being dishonest, or hopelessly naiive.
Posted by philbq at 01/03/2009 @ 11:30pm
Thrawn,
Let's talk a bit about the Israeli Lobby in America. Since you mentioned the work of Mearsheimer and Walt's, Can you get Mearsheimer and Walt's as guests on a single major US TV network?
The Lobby has, further, prevented ex President Jimmy Carter from speaking at the Democratic Convention in Denver last year, because he wrote a book critical of Israel. This was an unprecedented feat in the history of political conventions that an ex president of the United States was barred from speaking at his Party's political convention.
It was reported lately, that Tzipi Livni, the extremist Israeli Foreign Minister, has recently fired a stern warning to President-Elect Obama. The warning was delivered to Obama via a phone call to the "Wonna be Zionist" Joe Biden. Livni warned that if the Israelis felt that Obama's rapprochement toward Iran crossed the Israelis comfort zone, that the Israelis will unleash their full power of their Lobby against Obama. I have no doubt that Obama has gotten the message; after all who is Obama to challenge the mighty Israeli lobby? This is precisely why Obama will never dare to utter a world, even if Israel pushes Gaza to Stone Age.
Posted by CripThink at 01/04/2009 @ 12:12am
Posted by CripThink at 01/04/2009 @ 12:12am
And a lot of that is nothing but hearsay.
Seriously as bad as the war-lovers here are, some of you all are almost on the same level.
Posted by TexasFlood at 01/04/2009 @ 01:47am
Although, thinking that it's "okay" for Israel to launch airstrikes against an occupied and comparatively unarmed group of people means you're sick in the fucking head.
Let's all at least get that clear.
Posted by TexasFlood at 01/04/2009 @ 01:49am
And your point is...? (Rather incoherent, I must say.) Crip, you are so right: Meirsheimer and Walt writes a controversial book about Israeli control of the discourse regarding Israel, and to prove their point, they are banned from any major network t.v. interview or discussion. Are you listening,Thrawn? And since the Democratic party leadership is completely obedient to the Israeli lobby, Jimmy Carter is banned from speaking at the convention. His crime was telling the truth about aparthied conditions in the occupied territories. This is clear evidence of the complete power of the Israeli lobby for any sensible objective person.
Posted by philbq at 01/04/2009 @ 06:36am
As noted on an earlier thread, if you want to see the "Israel can do no wrong" Right to clam up...
ask them for their SOLUTION to the conflict?
You'll get the Religious Right "Biblical borders of Israel" Crowd (like LVLIB) offering up incredible ideas like "The Palestinians should just give up Gaza and the West Bank and if they're nice, Israel will let them become citizens of Israel!".
But your rank-n-file Neo-con...won't answer except VERY vaguely. They can't.
Their only choice will be "Keep killing the Palestinians until they start acting nice (aka, do whatever Israel wants)". And they know how that would make them sound as much as the Religious Right sounds.
Posted by Mask at 01/04/2009 @ 08:18am
we hear a lot about how Israel prevented food and medicine from reaching Gazans. we also hear a lot about the many tunnels the Hamas used to smuggle rockets into Gaza.
why did they not use these tunnels to bring in food and medicine?
Posted by emile duBois at 01/04/2009 @ 11:17am
Israel's plan is diabolicly clear: to expel or exterminate all Palestinians and take their land. They certainly will not be allowed to become Israeli citizens. That would mean no more "Jewish State".
Posted by philbq at 01/04/2009 @ 11:19am
the rockets Hamas fires into Israel are aimed at civilians. there is no moral high ground for the palestinians.
Posted by emile duBois at 01/04/2009 @ 11:19am
the west bank was a part of Jordan until "67. its residents could be described as Jordanians. Jordan washed its hands of them 40 years ago. Gaza had been a part of Egypt. its residents should be described as Egyptians.
the fact is the neighboring arab countries don't want the "palestinians". they have kept the refugees in camps since '48.
the pages of the Nation are a microcosm. no one seems to push for peace.
you don't have to be an antisemite to criticize Israel's policy, but many here who do are. coincidence?
Posted by emile duBois at 01/04/2009 @ 11:40am
<i>Posted by philbq at 01/04/2009 @ 06:36am </i>
On Mearsheimer and Walt...what I've already provided has basically answered this objection. They weren't widely interviewed (though they did get some major interviews, for example with Colbert and I think Stewart) because they didn't really offer new scholarship.
As for the all-powerful Israel Lobby...even a cursory check of the media is sufficient to falsify your claim. Just taking a look at MSNBC, the Washington Post and the New York Times, I found articles that are far from uniformly positive about Israel. One features a large picture of a wounded Palestinian boy, and none of them whitewashes their accounts so as to ignore or downplay criticism of Israel's actions.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/04/2009 @ 1:48pm
the jews made us do it.
this serves as a blanket excuse for any bad thing our gov't does or has done.
Posted by emile duBois at 01/04/2009 @ 2:12pm
>>> One features a large picture of a wounded Palestinian boy, and none of them whitewashes their accounts so as to ignore or downplay criticism of Israel's actions.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/04/2009 @ 1:48pm<<<
But will any of these news organizations "break" with the AIPAC party line and call for direct talks with Hamas?
It is one thing to show Israeli brutality, which has the effect of terrorizing Palestinians, and quite another thing to call for concrete action that has a real chance of ending the conflict.
When the NYT breaks with the AIPAC official line, I will be the first to congratulate them. But so far, just more of the same, with a little bone here and there to placate the Palestinians so they don't totally lose credibility with their readers.
Posted by Metteyya at 01/04/2009 @ 6:53pm
>>>I have no doubt that Obama has gotten the message; after all who is Obama to challenge the mighty Israeli lobby? This is precisely why Obama will never dare to utter a world, even if Israel pushes Gaza to Stone Age.
Posted by CripThink at 01/04/2009 @ 12:12am<<<
This is PRECISELY the nonsense that has kept me out of politics!
If I were Obama, I would write Livni back and tell her, "HOW DARE YOU THREATEN THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. WITH THE STROKE OF THE PEN I CAN END ALL OF YOUR FOREIGN AID AND CONDITION FUTURE AID ON THE CONSENSUS OF THE US TAXPAYER. I WILL IMMEDIATELY CALL FOR PUBLICLY FUNDED ELECTIONS AND MAKE CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS LIKE THE ONES FROM YOUR AIPAC OPERATIVES A CRIMINAL OFFENSE IN AMERICA. THEN WHERE WILL YOU GET YOUR POWER FROM?"
Posted by Metteyya at 01/04/2009 @ 7:10pm
Posted by Metteyya at 01/04/2009 @ 7:10pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Obama is far too diplomatic to try this kind of shabby power play.
Posted by emile duBois at 01/04/2009 @ 7:38pm
one more thing, the president does not have the power to do what you suggest. it is congress which appropriates the money, not the pres.
Posted by emile duBois at 01/04/2009 @ 7:42pm
MAKE CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS LIKE THE ONES FROM YOUR AIPAC OPERATIVES A CRIMINAL OFFENSE IN AMERICA.
the pres has no power to do this.
Posted by emile duBois at 01/04/2009 @ 7:47pm
>>>Obama is far too diplomatic to try this kind of shabby power play.
Posted by emile duBois at 01/04/2009 @ 7:38pm<<<
You are correct - the diplomatic thing would be to say:
I KNOW IRAN'S ACTIVITIES IN THE REGION ARE A CONCERN TO THE US AND ISRAEL, AND I WILL DO EVERYTHING IN MY POWER TO ENSURE THAT IRAN DOES NOT DEVELOP A NUCLEAR WEAPON AND CURTAILS ITS SUPPORT OF TERRORIST GROUPS.
Then do PRECISELY what I said in my previous post, but do not single out Israel, just change the way we fund elections and distribute foreign aid so that it is consistent with campaign pledges to reduce the influence of lobbyists.
Posted by Metteyya at 01/04/2009 @ 7:52pm
he does not have that power.
Posted by emile duBois at 01/04/2009 @ 8:29pm
Let's hypothetically, reverse the situation on the ground in Gaza. Let's assume that Jews were at the receiving end by Palestinian F-16s in Gaza. Let's, further, assume that Palestinians murdered over 500 Jews and wounded over 2700 in seven days in Gaza, mostly civilians and children. 1. Obama would have interrupted his Hawaiian vacation and rushed back to Washington. He would declare that being silent about murdering innocent Jews is morally reprehensible. He would urge President Bush to place the resources of the US at Israel's disposal to lift the Palestinian siege of the Jews in Gaza. 2. Congress members would have interrupted their break and rushed back to Washington to convene an emergency session. 99 Senators and 422 Congressmen, across party line, would have signed a resolution asking the president to immediately dispatch our Marines to break the Palestinian siege of Gaza. Congress would pass resolutions to freeze all Palestinian assets in American banks and enacts an economic and military embargo to punish nations that supply arms to the Palestinians. Congress would further deem the Palestinians in violation of the Arms Export Control Act for using American made F-16s to kill civilians. 3. The Secretary of State to be, Hillary Clinton, would hold a press conference and call for the obliteration of the Palestinians 4. The American mainstream media would play the murdering of Jews in Gaza 24 hour a day, uninterrupted. They will show the savagely torn bodies of Jewish kids and their wailing mothers and their funerals, play-by-play. Well, Ladies and Gentlemen, the Israelis have just murdered 506 Palestinians and wounded over 2700 in Gaza, after they starved them for six months. America was kept silent and in the dark about this crime by the Israeli lobby.
Posted by CripThink at 01/05/2009 @ 04:12am
let's get real folks. Hamas would be proud to murder 506 Israelis, and their amen corner here at the nation would nod.
Posted by emile duBois at 01/05/2009 @ 10:14am
after they starved them for six months.
if Hamas can smuggle rockets into Gaza, they could easily have smuggled food and medicine using the same tunnels.
Posted by emile duBois at 01/05/2009 @ 10:24am
I think this is what the left divides and is defined by: To support an Islamistic/religious movement in the name of supressed people or a democratic state and a solution between societies. Whatever Israel did the last thirty years there were always these odd thinkers of an obscure left who produced the same sentences all over again: Israel produces this kind of terrorists, by its action, which ever. In reality, by its existence. As we describe this thinking in Europe, it is always the Jew who provokes and is guilty. And how do we call this thinking?
Posted by fritzwunderlich at 01/05/2009 @ 12:12pm
Posted by fritzwunderlich at 01/05/2009 @ 12:12pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Fritzl, don't confuse jew with Israeli. while most Israelis are jewish, only a small percentage of jews is Israeli.
Posted by emile duBois at 01/05/2009 @ 12:18pm
"And for the Jews, there is no Talmudic commentary calling for the extinction of any people because of their ethnicity or nation" Actually, the Talmud DOES sanction the killing of non-Jews, it also sanctions sex with babies and other unbelievable atrocities.
I just don't understand that if the rest of the world is so outraged, and it seems to be (except for the silent complicit Jewish population of America: silence=death), then why don't all these countries boycott Israel and impose the most stringent international sanctions. It did work in South Africa. Israel DOES sell ammunition and weaponry to Mugabe's Zimbabwe, so it really is a rogue state which is out of control.And Israel doesn't advertise this, but it is sensitive to world opinion; That's why the despicable propaganda film "Waltz With Bashir" has been released to coincide with the current genocide in order to whitewash Sharon's conviction of atrocities committed at Sabra and Shatilla.The only medicine Israel understands is money, and the world has to treat Israel as the abomination it is, a despicable pariah and rogue state..It wouldn't hurt to have the International Court declare the war crimes it is guilty of, just like it did with Sharon. It is increasingly apparent that Obama is milquetoast, the useless sort like Harry Reid.
Posted by mystic7 at 01/05/2009 @ 3:04pm