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RedditJohn McCain says he won't talk to Syria, Hezbollah, and Hamas. Barack Obama might talk to Syria, but he's having nothing to do with Hezbollah and Hamas. I guess they know something that the Israeli government doesn't.
Over the past couple weeks, it's become increasingly clear that Israel is simultaneously, but separately, conducting talks with Syria, Hezbollah, and Hamas.
The Israel-Syria talks, involving two top aides to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, are sponsored by Turkey. Haaretz, the Israeli daily, reported: "Two days of indirect peace talks between Israel and Syria in Turkey ended Monday, Israeli and Turkish officials said, adding that the atmosphere was positive and the contacts would continue." In India, where he arrived for a five-day visit, President Bashar Assad "said that India could play a 'direct' role in the ongoing talks between Syria and Israel." Talks will resume next month, the Turkish foreign minister said, and according to the New York Times, "The Israeli news media have been rife with reports that the Israeli team will try to persuade the Syrians to have their leaders meet face to face in Paris in mid-July at the conference, organized by President Nicolas Sarkozy of France, to establish a Mediterranean Union." For Assad, the stumbling block for a face-to-face meeting is that he wants the United States to broker the deal, and the White House ain't playing. Possibly for that reason, the French are insisting that a direct meeting isn't likely.
Meanwhile, Israel is encouraging talks in Cairo sponsored by the Egyptian intelligence agency to broker a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. Reports Ynet:
The Hamas delegation, headed by the organization's deputy politburo chief, Moussa Abu Marzouk, held several meetings with Egyptian intelligence minister, Gen. Omar Suleiman, over the past few days.This following a similar visit by the head of Israel's Defense Ministry Security-Diplomatic Bureau, Maj. Gen. Amos Gilad.
Hamas' prime minister says that he expects the talks to succeed. Though neither McCain nor Obama will endorse the Egyptian-sponsored talks, the Israeli national security cabinet has backed them. I guess it's a good thing those militant, pro-Israeli Jewish voters in Florida can't vote in Israel.
Meanwhile, it appears that a deal is close for a prisoner exchange between Israel and Hezbollah that could free the two Israeli soldiers captured in 2006, whose seizure sparked the Israeli invasion of Lebanon that summer. The two Israelis, wounded but presumably alive--although the deal could involve the soldiers' remains, if dead--might be traded as early as Friday for captives held by Israel, though it might take longer. The deal is awaiting the approval of Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah.
None of this means Middle East peace is breaking out. But perhaps the McCain and Obama campaigns ought to take note: even Hamas and Hezbollah are worth talking to.
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Robert Dreyfuss
A chronicle of America's adventures in foreign policy and national security.
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better to jaw jaw, than war, war.
the biggest lie is that negotiation is a sign of weakness.
this should take some of the steam out of those who like to blame Israel for America's failures.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/17/2008 @ 02:31am
Israel hammering out its own terms and taking initiative in encouraging. The No Talk neocon camp here in the US is but the 800 pound gorilla that Israel drags around on a leash for negotiating strength and posture. Israel knows that ultimately, we here in the US can't even manage our own affairs, let alone the affairs of other countries. Much more emphasis should have been placed on Israel handling its own affairs all along. While history would tell us to view this "progress" with some cynicism, I think it does tell the story that there are domestic forces within Israel that are demanding change from the militant no talk no negotiation hawks. There is no military solution in the long run.....and moderate Israeli's know this.
Mossad and Shin Bet will have to be on guard to ensure that extremists do not sabotage the process like they did with Rabin years ago.
This looks like good news!
Posted by OneVote at 06/17/2008 @ 02:51am
Love to see LVLIB on THIS thread too....
talking about how ISRAEL is acting like an "appeaser"!
Posted by Mask at 06/17/2008 @ 03:16am
It's easy to say that you should not talk to these people if you are hiding in America,but if you can't hide from them then you may have a different view.
Posted by i'm nobody at 06/17/2008 @ 03:37am
I think the Israelis are starting to figure out that if they ever want peace they are going to have to try diplomacy rather than the big stick method. They are figuring out that talking to your enemy is not appeasing them it is just trying to solve problems without having to kill people and is to be admired. The neo-con never negotiate only kill method doesn't work because it is not a show of strength it is a show of brutality and lunacy.
Good for Israel. I guess LVL will have to support talking to Hamas and Hezbollah now since Israel apparently determines our foreign policy.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 06/17/2008 @ 03:41am
It's no surprise that US foreign policy, designed by idiots for mega-idiots (majority believing that Saddam was responsible for 9/11) would continue to declare no negotiation with Hamas & Hezbollah. At one time Jews & Arabs shared the same coffee houses, be it one in front & the other in back. Maybe the day will come when at least they can enter a building on either side of a Palestine/Israel border in security & safety.
Posted by Sorelish at 06/17/2008 @ 1:18pm
what's so bad about negotiating? afraid the war will come to an end?
Posted by emile duBois at 06/17/2008 @ 1:35pm
Good to hear. I hope it isn't just useless rhetoric that we usually get from Israel (and the U.S., for that matter).
I hope it continues.
Posted by ShamansBlues at 06/17/2008 @ 2:02pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 06/17/2008
LVLIB...I'm sorry, stunned for a moment...
Did you just say that ISRAEL "is making a bad decision."?!?!?!?!?
How is that possible? It goes against "God's plan"?!?!?!?
Posted by Mask at 06/17/2008 @ 2:18pm
Posted by frankgrits at 06/17/2008
Hey, FRANK...when will McCain start making fun of ISRAEL for talking to the terrorists?!?!?!?
Posted by Mask at 06/17/2008 @ 2:19pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 06/17/2008
Or maybe they realize that the only method to acheive lasting peace is through diplomacy since war only stands to breed more enmity. God you are the most blood thirsty priest I have ever seen. You would rather kill than talk it would seem. Diplomacy is not appeasement no matter how much you war mongers want to paint it that way. The longer you can forestall fighting the more lives you save. If they come to a cease-fire with Hamas and avoid war with Syria why is that a bad thing? Isn't that the reason war wants to go to war with both? In order to achieve a lasting peace in the region? So would it not then make perfect sense that if they manage to achieve a lasting peace without ever firing a bullet that it is a good thing?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 06/17/2008 @ 2:37pm
lvliberty1
that's bullcrap. Israel is the greatest military power in the region, as they have proved over and over again. how exactly are they committing suicide?
Posted by emile duBois at 06/17/2008 @ 3:08pm
lvliberty1
who said anything about letting down your guard? are they going to cashier their soldiers while they negotiate? your are an absurd clown. do you think before you post?
this is not the first time anyone ever negotiated. Israel made peace with its most powerful enemy. they too wanted Israel to be pushed into the sea. they may still wish for it. wishing however doth not make it so.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/17/2008 @ 3:21pm
CCC
You cannot have a honest peace with someone that refuses to change their policy of seeing you destroyed, not just as a nation, but as a people.
What do you negotiate, kill only some of us? or maybe kill us slowly, quickly?
You can only negotiate peace with someone that actually wants peace.
Anything else is suicide.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 06/17/2008
Then why did they agree to a ceasefire and negotiations if they don't want to negotiate? Your theory is not backed up by the facts. It is just more war mongering. If there was no way to neogtiate then why do Hamas keep going through ceasefires and attempted negotiations if they have no interest in negotiating? Do they just like sitting at tables in other countries trying to hammer out details with Israel so they can poke fun at them?
You don't agree to a ceasefire and then agree to talk diplomatically if you have no interest in actually negotiating.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 06/17/2008 @ 3:38pm
I think even you LVL can admit that it is a little odd for a group to spend so much time trying to negotiate with people if they actually have no intention of negotiating with them.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 06/17/2008 @ 3:42pm
Also amazing that somehow an evangelical preacher in southern California four decades out of his mysterious military service with NO foreign policy or Mid-East intelligence bona fides....
somehow knows what's better for Israel than....
Israel?!??!?
Posted by Mask at 06/17/2008 @ 3:47pm
somehow knows what's better for Israel than....
Israel?!??!?
Posted by Mask at 06/17/200
Amazing isn't it?
Wait LVL you live in Southern California?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 06/17/2008 @ 3:53pm
Wow LVL, you impress me. You think a political organization representing an area that is currently militarily occupied could ever pose a real threat to the integrity of the occupiers? In a stretch, with huge civilian support they could wage a successful war against the occupiers ala Iraq. (and this gets harder when the occupiers know the area and speak the language). But really, could Hamas ever take the fight to Isreal? The Isrealites fought off practically the entire region at one point. What makes you think that one little impoverished force representing a relatively small number of people, with little support from it's people could do better? LVL, you lack perspective.
Posted by shadow master at 06/17/2008 @ 3:55pm
it's not that I know better. Opinion is very divided in Israel over this. As I noted, Olmert is desperate given his very low standings and that Ehud Barak wants to dissolve the govt and become PM.
Netanyahus and the majority of conservative Israelis are against this move and if Netanyahu is elected PM in the fall, you will see a different direction.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 06/17/2008
Sooo. You know what is better for Israel than the Israeli government?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 06/17/2008 @ 3:55pm
Wow LVL, you impress me. You think a political organization representing an area that is currently militarily occupied could ever pose a real threat to the integrity of the occupiers? In a stretch, with huge civilian support they could wage a successful war against the occupiers ala Iraq. (and this gets harder when the occupiers know the area and speak the language). But really, could Hamas ever take the fight to Isreal? The Isrealites fought off practically the entire region at one point. What makes you think that one little impoverished force representing a relatively small number of people, with little support from it's people could do better? LVL, you lack perspective.
Posted by shadow master at 06/17/2008
Kind of like when Repubs say Iran or Iraq was or is a credible threat to the survival of the US. Like Iran could ACTUALLY take down the US.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 06/17/2008 @ 3:59pm
they are Israelis, NOT Israelites.
The Israelites is a song by Desmond Decker. a classic
Posted by emile duBois at 06/17/2008 @ 4:21pm
The US must talk to whomever it needs to resolve conflict. This "pre-condition" for talks nonsense is being pushed by AIPAC, and says more about AIPAC's influence over US policymakers than it does concerning what makes the most sense diplomatically.
Don't listen to your lobbyists when crafting US foreign policy, listen to your inner-compass and then do the right thing for America and the world.
Posted by Metteyya at 06/17/2008 @ 4:44pm
You know Mask. I see why you are so cynical sometimes now. Talking on here is making me more and more cynical toward certain people. I am starting to believe that some people are more devoted to their ideology than what is good for the country. I think even if Barack helped broker peace for Israel, lowered taxes, fixed our economy, brought peace to this country and did wonders for school, social security, medical insurance and everything LVL and others like him would still insult him. They don't care how good the country is doing as long as it is not doing it in THEIR way of thinking. This is indicative of the left AND the right.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 06/17/2008 @ 4:56pm
They don't care how good the country is doing as long as it is not doing it in THEIR way of thinking. This is indicative of the left AND the right.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 06/17/2008 |
BINGO! Give this 21 year old a cigar!
Posted by Benchrest at 06/17/2008 @ 5:09pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 06/17/2008
C3, you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket. Your way of thinking is no better than LvLiberty's. Both ideologies are polar opposites.
Posted by ACook at 06/17/2008 @ 5:19pm
C3, you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket. Your way of thinking is no better than LvLiberty's. Both ideologies are polar opposites.
Posted by ACook at 06/17/2008
I am by far not saying Obama is going to actually do this. I don't even think he will accomplish 5% of this. My example is used to only illustrated that even if he DID manage to do all of this people like LV still would not concede that he was good. I know no President could accomplish all of this in 8 years. It isn't possible. It requires successive administrations to accomplish things of this scale. So by no means am I putting my eggs in one basket. Sorry to give you that impression it was just an example not my expectations.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 06/17/2008 @ 5:29pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 06/17/2008
Look, LVLIB's attitudes and opinions on Israel are barely based on geo-politics or even really that much of what Likud thinks or does.
It's based on "the Bible" and "God's plan".
It's not even really what's best for Israel. If giving up land that was "Biblically" their "destined" borders meant a reduction in violence with the Palestinians...he'd oppose it.
Israel MUST have it's "original borders" (no..not 1947 or even '68...try 50 BCE)...or else "God's plan" falls apart.
So if Netanyahu promising another round of "get tough" and Olmert and Barak talking (in defiance of John McCain's warning...heheh) to the Syrians, etc. and failing....furthers "God's plan", but decreases peace....fine with LL.
Posted by Mask at 06/17/2008 @ 8:39pm
The fact no one is noticing is Israel has always maintained lines of communication with both Hamas and Hezbollah. Talking with the enemy has been Israeli foreign policy since their founding, anything else would have been pure suicide. When you're surrounded by intractable enemies, even with superior armanents, you learn to talk.
Posted by yutsano at 06/17/2008 @ 9:47pm
i imagine the israelis want to save a little money......
Posted by frosty zoom at 06/17/2008 @ 9:49pm
and make some money.
they grow some tasty persimmons just waiting for export to their neighbours.
Posted by frosty zoom at 06/17/2008 @ 9:50pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 06/17/2008
Just a small note on this...Israel has gone down this path before with Hafez al Assad with Hezbollah and Yasar Arafat with the PLO and they got crapped on.
Something tells me these meetings will not bear much fruit, even though the Israeli government is pandering to outsiders.
Israel can stop the illegal settlements but there will be no negotiations regarding the return of the Golan Heights to Syria and the right for all Palestinian refugess to return to their former homes. It simply won't happen. Israel cannot afford to allow a little over 4 million Arabs to surround them. For them, it's an issue of security.
Posted by ACook at 06/17/2008 @ 9:57pm
yeah,
that would be like giving georgia back to the cherokee.
better to keep them on the reservation in gaza.
Posted by frosty zoom at 06/17/2008 @ 10:03pm
my friend ibrahim was driven from his home and farm in 1948.
a few years ago he returned to find a jewish family from north africa living in his childhood home.
they invited him in for tea.
then he had to leave.
Posted by frosty zoom at 06/17/2008 @ 10:09pm
frosty zoom
my grandparents summer home in Pommerania is now in Poland. I presume a Polish family is living there. maybe they've dug up the silver and persian carpets buried in the basement.
tough shit.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/17/2008 @ 10:45pm
ever so eloquent....
Posted by frosty zoom at 06/17/2008 @ 11:09pm
English, not my mother tongue, is a great, graphic language.
the above would be not as terse in German.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/18/2008 @ 12:40am
how old is your friend Ibrahim?
Posted by emile duBois at 06/18/2008 @ 12:41am
history allows very few backsies.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/18/2008 @ 12:42am
oh, he expected nothing.
in a way he, was happy for the people living there.
he's got white hair.
Posted by frosty zoom at 06/18/2008 @ 01:53am
Its a Hate Trick, alright.
What is called "appeasement" -- shorthand for behavior and attitudes of anti-semites always looking for how to kill another 6,000,000 more Jews (sarcasm) -- is actually being conducted out of sight, behind everybody's back, by the very very ones supposedly harmed by talking at all (obvious and absurd over-description; some happy that Israeli's are smarter than that)..
...dismissed as a 3-fer hockey feat. Unclear how that applies. Jews (some of them) sure know how to make the filthy look funny (maybe all-- since I'm only now catching on to what this anti-semitism stuff was all about prior to 2000, before Bush announced they were swing votes for his successful '04 bid, maybe there is a lot I never knew about why the holocaust happened, if it did).
Posted by jones at 06/18/2008 @ 09:25am
he has no leadership experience and thus is not ready or qualified in my opinion to be president.
You think that is an insult?
Posted by lvliberty1
it's more than that, it's a lie.
in a comparison with the present occupant's experience Obama is comfortably ahead.
Posted by emile duBois at 06/21/2008 @ 09:13am