DeLay Indictment: Beyond Damage Control?

Minutes after the news hit that a Texas grand jury had indicted House Majority Leader Tom DeLay on one count of criminal conspiracy in a case of alleged campaign money laundering, I was in a Washington power-lunch restaurant for a prearranged encounter with Eric Dezenhall, a former Reagan administration official who is one of the top crisis management experts in town (and a writer of entertaining novels on politics, the mob, and celebrity). As I sat down at the table, I said, "The obvious question is...." Dezenhall nodded. He knew. But before he could say anything, a message came in on his Blackberry from a reporter for a major newspaper: had Dezenhall yet been retained by DeLay? He had not. He usually does not handle political cases; he prefers corporations and celebrities. But as DeLay was preparing to step down temporarily as majority leader (as is required by a House rule the GOPers tried to eliminate earlier this year), Dezenhall was happy to think aloud about what a damage-control strategy for DeLay might entail.

"The first thing he must do," Dezenhall said, "is to realize that his objective is to get acquitted, not to look good. He must understand that damage control does not equal damage disappearance. He has to save what is save-able. He might not be able to save everything: his freedom; his political career, and his financial prospects. His life has changed; he has to focus on acquittal." At the same time, he added, DeLay has "to stick with his brand and fight back savagely." And will he depict himself as a martyr being crucified because of his devotion to the conservative cause? I asked. "What does he have to lose at this stage?" Dezenhall answered. "He has to dig in, stay in character and depict the indictment as unholy and agenda-driven. Show contrition? Nah, that's total horseshit."

Dezenhall also noted that from this day on, DeLay's target audience is the to-be-named-later jury that will hear the criminal case against him: "He and his advisers have to concentrate and what will work with a Texas jury. A media roadshow involving someone in a legal case never pays dividends. And DeLay is sufficiently divisive and that does not lend himself well to a careful TV interview. What does pay off is whipping up the preexisting prejudices of the the jury pool." While Dezenhall said that DeLay ought to "speak up within the confines of his brand," he noted that DeLay "is always vulnerable to coming off looking mean, and mean does not go well with juries." (Before DeLay became majority leader, Representative Curt Weldon, a GOP hawk, once observed, "We need someone who can go on national TV and present a good, positive image of the Republican Party and not a mean-spirited image.")

DeLay's team, Dezenhall continued, may also consider playing the leak game. With DeLay indicted on a conspiracy charge, it could be that Travis County DA Ronnie Earle flipped one of the coconspirators. There are several ways of establishing a conspiracy charge--say, obtaining memos or emails that lay out the conspiracy--but one clear way is by obtaining the testimony of one of the schemers. If Earle does have an insider spilling all, DeLay will need to undermine that witness--perhaps before any trial. This could lead to a "media game," Dezenhall said. "Things are leaked to get the person or people who were flipped. This will be done through leaks to the media. The point from DeLay's perspective is, don't love me, but hate him." Above all, Dezenhall added, DeLay has to proceed with the understanding that he "cannot get people to change their fundamental perception of him."

******

Don't forget about DAVID CORN's BLOG at www.davidcorn.com. Read recent postings on Bill Frist, a rightwing cat fight, Bush's photo-opping and other in-the-news matters.

*******

Shortly after this conversation, it looked as if DeLay had been at the table with us. In a videotaped statement--which precluded questions from reporters--DeLay proclaimed that Earle was a "rogue district attorney," who had brought "one of the weakest and most baseless indictments in American history." DeLay claimed, "I have done nothing wrong." He noted that everyone of the "frivolous allegations" previously tossed at him by opponents had ben dismissed. That's not precisely true. The weak-kneed House Ethics Committee last year issued two reports that showed that DeLay had improperly pressured a fellow House Republican to vote for George W. Bush's Medicare legislation (offering to endorse the member's son in a congressional primary if the member voted the right way), had improperly (through his staff) asked the Federal Aviation Administration to find a plane with Democratic Texas legislators who had left the state to thwart a DeLay redistricting scheme, and had improperly held a golfing fundraiser with energy executives when energy legislation was pending in Congress. For all this, DeLay received a few taps on the wrist. The ethics committee noted that three fundraisers for a political action committee linked to DeLay and eight corporate donors to this PAC had been indicted for allegedly funneling illegal contributions to GOP state candidates. Now that DeLay has been indicted as well in this case, will the ethics committee undefer action?

Besides all this, DeLay has been implicated in other rule-bending or -breaking episodes. In 1999, the ethics committee privately chastised him for threatening an industry lobby group for daring to hire a Democrat. The Washington Post once quoted an unnamed lobbyist who claimed DeLay would not allow him to plead his client's case to the GOP leadership because he had not donated to Republicans. (Can you say "extortion"?) And, more notably, DeLay has been drawn into the net of the wide-ranging scandal involving Jack Abramoff, the indicted GOP lobbyist who allegedly bilked Indian tribes, who allegedly commited wire fraud (in a Florida casino deal that ended up with one of his minority partners being murdered allegedly by hit men), and who apparently picked up the tab for overseas trips with DeLay.

The Texas indictment--in which DeLay and his associates are accused of illegally running corporate contributions through the national Republican party in order to skirt the state ban on corporate donations to local candidates--is but one questionable episode in DeLay's history. But it is now the biggest and most direct threat to his future. Conviction could lead to a fine and imprisonment--and removal from the House. His lawyer quickly dismissed the indictment as a "skunk." And DeLay came out hammering. But, as Dezenhall pointed out, there is only so much DeLay can do. Spin cannot derail the criminal proceedings underway. A judge and a jury will have the last word on this indictment. The former exterminator who became arguably the most powerful man on Capitol Hill (see my piece on how he took control of NASA) is at the mercy of others whom--we assume--he cannot bully. And the damage to come may end up being beyond his control.

Comments (131)

1. Good, that's done. Now can we get Karl Rove and the Plame leak back on the front burner?

   Posted by barnesgene at 09/28/2005 @ 4:45pm

2. Oh, hell...let's throw Bolton on there too...we can make a meal of it!

   Posted by leftofcenter at 09/28/2005 @ 4:50pm

3. Who would buy that Rove engineered the timing of the Delay indictment?

   Posted by urmygyro at 09/28/2005 @ 4:52pm

4. Zero - true. kinda like a rapper needs a rep so he can sell cds.

   Posted by urmygyro at 09/28/2005 @ 5:08pm

5. Facing a Texas jury will be an uphill battle for Mr. DeLay.

   Posted by Hman23 at 09/28/2005 @ 5:32pm

6. ZERO:

   Although I agree with your general assesments, DeLay could very easily be toast in this case. I cannot imagine too many Republicans that will be willing to stick their own necks out for this guy considering that he is going to be facing a Texas jury at the end of the line - not a good prospect for those in powerful positions as well as large corporations. For example, plaintiffs lawyers LOVE Texas juries - some of the largest money verdicts come from that state (see Vioxx). Given that the future is so unknown, maybe some of the hardcores will stick up for him in public, but most will shy away and not risk their own reputations. I do not see a rise in the ranks for Mr. DeLay.

   Posted by Hman23 at 09/28/2005 @ 5:40pm

7. Although the indictment of Tom DeLay is important, a higher priority is to find out what Admiral Poindexter and his data mining folks are doing.

   Posted by oraibi1952 at 09/28/2005 @ 5:42pm

8. Mr. DeLay's time has come. Considering the harshness of Texas imprisonment standards, the idea that one of his colleagues has "turned" has to be a real possibility. All good things come to an end and all bad things end badly. Mr. DeLay is probably going to play the game as Mr. Corn's friend has suggested. If he is guilty, it won't save him. If he is found innocent, I am afraid what will happen to the Republic with Mr. DeLay returning unbowed by the experience.

   Posted by Terry Day at 09/28/2005 @ 6:10pm

9. all I can say is.....remember Whitewater?? All that money thrown into that useless investigation and now that the Republicans are facing inditements from everywhere, they're crying foul? They were relentless when it came to "investigating" Clinton's Whitewater deal and after all that, no one was charged and no charges were brought against Clinton. This Aministration and Party's philosophy is..."do as I say, not as I do"

   Posted by sophieg60 at 09/28/2005 @ 7:00pm

10. Rio Bravo - It seems you have opted for pure obfuscation. What is your position on the DeLay indictment? Innocent man attacked without cause, trumped up politically-motivated charges without substance? What? You seem bereft of meaningful comments on any of the DeLay articles. A big Ho-Hum back atcha!

    Posted by Fishbite at 09/28/2005 @ 8:29pm

11. He'll be fine. Just needs to get one of those liberal lawyers, with all that "rights of the accused" and "due process" stuff we've been hearing about.

    Posted by MyParadigm at 09/28/2005 @ 8:30pm

12. This will never see a day in court. All the things I have heard about this inditement from the legal beagels on the air is that there is nothing there.

    It will be thrown out like most of the other cases from this Texas prosecuter. The real trial has already taken place in the media. Remember the famous statement.. It is the seriousness of the charges that matters...

    Delay will come out of this ok and the GOP will gain more seats in the House, Senate and will capture the White House once again. They are blessed by the enemies they have and the only outrage will be on these pages.

    Posted by john maasch at 09/28/2005 @ 8:41pm

13. I don't think the Delay news today matters. Nothing seems to be there after listening to all of the various legal pundents. It is good for the national media but little else. 527's are a bigger problem.

    This Delay thing appears to be an attempt to get some feel good time for all the frustrated dems who lament their absolute loss of power. This will not get power back. Ideas and plans will gain some back. Just chewing your opponent up without providing anything worthwhile will just promote contemt. GOP couldn't PICK a better group of enemies. Man are they blessed. Gore,Kerry, Dean, Schumer,..my GOD!!

    Dems can't win elections in the arena of ideas and are now looking like muggers with sour grapes. Attack everything in sight and blame Bush for all things. Amazing, the only thing safe from attack by Dems are the terrorists......hmmmm

    Posted by john maasch at 09/28/2005 @ 8:43pm

14. PS If it ever does come to trial it will be heard in Houston, Delays home town. Good jury pickins.

    Posted by john maasch at 09/28/2005 @ 8:52pm

15. "Are we the only ones with political instincts–This whole thing about not kicking someone when they are down is BS – Not only do you kick him – You kick him until he passes out – then beat him over the head with a baseball bat – then roll him up in an old rug – and throw him off a cliff into the pounding surf below!!!!!" -Tom DeLay

    Posted by proudlib at 09/28/2005 @ 9:49pm

16. Such a different and disappointing time in politics. We witnessed not so long ago how previous Congressional asswipes were wiped off the political map: Rostenkowski, Livingston, Wright, Traficant. But now seems not to be the time for ethics; now is the time for power. Unless he is legally prevented from running in 2006, he will win. If he is prevented from running, he will take his little hammer from the halls of Congress to the backdoor politics of lobbying and the RNC. The problem is not that Delay is a truly awful human being. Clearly he is evidence that a higher being has nothing to do with individual human conception and development. Rather, the problem is that awfulness is a prerequisite for being judged "effective" in today's political climate.

    Let us hope that 2006 is a year to remember. I just don't know how much more of this I can take.

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 09/28/2005 @ 10:46pm

17. I grew up in '70s Maryland, home to Spiro Agnew, his corrupt successor Marvin Mandell, and my Congressman Bob Bauman. Democrats could make no headway against Bauman until it came out that he was having an affair with one of his young male pages. It was a proud time to be an eastern Marylander. Yet, for all that, those guys were pretty quickly eliminated from politics.

    Oh for the return of justice, at least justice as defined by "you do wrong, you incur suffering."

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 09/28/2005 @ 10:51pm

18. Hey Maasch - this is a criminal case brought by a state prosecutor in Texas, not some Congressional investigation led by Clinton, Schumer et. al. Sounds like you have been listening to the wingnut conspracy theories too much today. How up to speed are you on Earle anyway? 27 year career and a history of getting convictions of both Reps and Dems from what I have read (4x as many Dems mind you).

    Your response is pretty predictable - dismiss it and say "it does not matter" (just let the reality sink in a minute - he was indicted for a fucking felony; even Clinton couldn't pull that one off). I even heard one GOP talking head say, hey, this isn't even a crime in some states. DeLay's defense counsel should take notes - that is a good one.

    What takes the cake is that you believe this actually helps the GOP. Hell, maybe if Frist gets indicted maybe you guys will get a supermajority in both houses.

    Finally, you obviously do not know too much about Texas juries. Texas state court is no place for a defendant (criminal or civil), especially a powerful one.

    Posted by Hman23 at 09/28/2005 @ 11:03pm

19. I have been listening all day to various legal beagels discuss this and it seems Earle is quite the political hack himself. Going after everyone of his enemies especially near election time. Half is enemies are conservative Dems.

    I think he will shortly run for office. we shall see.

    Posted by john maasch at 09/28/2005 @ 11:29pm

20. Look at the right cry tears for DeLay, a limp dick hood who could'nt' find the time of day to speak up for Frances Newton or any of the other death row inmates denied due process. Well, what goes around comes around. Lay down in shit, get up with flies.

    Posted by Jayarjunyah at 09/28/2005 @ 11:40pm

21. They aren't crying for him. They know this is poiltical and he will not see a day in court. He has already be found guilty by people like you. This inditement will be dropped as all the others by Earle have been.

    Posted by john maasch at 09/28/2005 @ 11:49pm

22. Maasch--what other indictments by Earle have been overturned? I haven't been listening to the legal pundits, so I haven't been made aware of these yet.

    Posted by matthewg at 09/28/2005 @ 11:56pm

23. Matt,

    I have heard that Senator Hutchinson was indited and demanded trial by jury. Earle dropped inditement days before trial and after her election. There were 3 other people, all dems, all dropped before trials and elections. I do not have names but they will be brought up soon I am sure. My info admittedly is hearsay from media. Apparently he is viewed as a party hack by both sides down there and his reputation is known as one who goes after his ememies in this way. Trial by media and damage is done.

    He also wants to run for governor of Texas. Politics down there is tough, I guess.

    Posted by john maasch at 09/29/2005 @ 12:13am

24. Any bets out there that next SC justice pick will be filibustered no matter who is picked and Bush will pull the trigger on Senate rules change, called constitutional option?

    Posted by john maasch at 09/29/2005 @ 12:17am

25. The funny thing about your posting, John Maasch, is that you don't have any problem with the idea of people with much less power than Tom Delay not getting their due process. I'll bet his case does see at least a day in court, just for the sake of appearances. That's what both sides of this system are all about, appearances. And if he does miss out, it's because he got decent representation, which is something people like you have never had a hard time denying people like me. Incidentally, I doubt you've ever personally met anyone like me. We learn early on to hold our tongues around people like you, for fear of losing jobs, etc. But it's not because we're afraid of you, we're just waiting for a chance to push you out a tenth story window. You think you know people like me, schmucko. Let me assure you, you'll never see us coming.

    Posted by Jayarjunyah at 09/29/2005 @ 12:42am

26. Was that over the line? So has been the execution of every death row prisoner denied due process, or full legal representation. I'm not sorry if it offends you. I never sleep. I never forget.

    Posted by Jayarjunyah at 09/29/2005 @ 12:44am

27. Jatarjunyan,

    No I do not know you or anything about you. Nor do you know me. A ten story window? Maybe Earle should do us all a favor and take a look at you.

    I have reread your post and can't figure out what would make you say "people like you" Is that a "you people"? On the contrary, I don't want to deny you any help you obviouisly need.

    Tenth story window? Would you then be the innocent one on death row after the push?

    Emotional horseshit is what you spew. I am throught with this blog,. I tried it for a week to get to know some liberal thought and I have found more emotional biased hate here than anywhere else. I am disappointed behond repair.

    God help us if anyone like you comes to any kind of power, much less in charge of someone else's hard earned money.

    No, I try not to be in a position to meet anyone like you. Seek help now.

    Posted by john maasch at 09/29/2005 @ 01:05am

28. God help us if anyone like you comes to any kind of power, much less in charge of someone else's hard earned money.

    No, I try not to be in a position to meet anyone like you. Seek help now.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 09/29/2005 @ 01:05am

    John, don't worry about Jayar; he's just a Mumea Abdul Jamal wannabe. I've stared down many like him in South Central LA, in South Africa (chased a local witch doctor out of a village by breaking the jar he carried a snake in, killed the snake and took away all his power with the village), and in places I can't name.

    Some here from the left like to sound tough, but they just want good hard debate. Some live by emotions and wouldn't know a fact if they walked into it. And some are just hardcore leftists who are so out of the mainstream, they can't even spell it.

    Posted by love liberty at 09/29/2005 @ 01:31am

29. Lets focus on the "Rule of Law": anyone is innocent until proving the contrary, in the meantime the justice indicts people, so that the true can be sorted out, and than the law can be applyed. Why should Delay be an excemption, if he is innocent, good for him, if not, well go and serve the sentence.

    Besides can anyone explain me why neo-cons say Ronnie Earle is a liberal hack, and Roberts is competent and fit, to my point of view both are rather the same, they are doing their job from the optics of their ideology...........

    Posted by areyouok at 09/29/2005 @ 05:25am

30. Any chance of Molly Ivins getting called for jury duty?

    Posted by rlewis at 09/29/2005 @ 08:07am

31. Yeah, and to balance why not Negroponte, Brenner, .......... keep it in the family

    Posted by areyouok at 09/29/2005 @ 08:30am

32. I remain carefully pessimistic. My heads been beating against the wall of injustice too often when thinking about this crowd. They get away with everything. I read some comments about facing a Texas jury and how that may not bode well for Hammer. I guess I need some enlightement on this theory. Certainly Texas jurists are hard core when dealing with crimes committed by Blacks and Hispanics. But Delay might skate if he gets a bunch of Evangelical hypocrits.

    Posted by wjfalcone at 09/29/2005 @ 09:09am

33. DeLay has nothing to worry about. His cronies - especially with the Governor of Texas - will take care of Tommy. Texas Republicans are so corrupt that even the term "corrupt" does not do justice and we need a stronger term to convey how utterly villainous this political party has become.

    Just like the Governor of Kentucky, Ernie Fletcher, when things got sticky for his pals he just pardoned all of them before the indictments were even handed down. Fletcher pardoned nine buddies involved in his administration's hiring practices after promising to "clean up Frankfort." Business as usual for the repugs. And most interestingly, had no shame or contrition over their actions. Look at the Republican administration in Ohio, California, Florida, the list goes on and on. Republicans = unethical, unprincipled and unscrupulous. They are all dirty.

    This is what will happen for DeLay. He will be pardoned and quickly be back to business as usual. The Republicans are power hungry, soulless group of people that is the epitome of anti-Christian, anti-religious, anti-American, anti-democracy, anti-Consitution ever to come to power in our history. It is time for all decent, honest and patriotic Americans to stand up to these thugs and get them out of DC, our state capitals, local government, and school boards. We cannot stand another year of this nonsense.

    Posted by KyDemocrat at 09/29/2005 @ 09:15am

34. WJFALCONE

    I agree with you, therefore I call this crowd an economic interest grouping and not a party. If the same would happen in another country, the crowd would call it banana republics. I hope america likes bananas, because we will have to eat plenty of them.

    Besides, do you have any relation with the famous italian anti-mafia Judge Falcone, who was assassinated by...the mafia.

    Posted by areyouok at 09/29/2005 @ 09:15am

35. John Maasch, maybe you should re-read your original post to me and see if you can figure out what would compel me to use a phrase like "people like you". I borrowed it from you, actually, and your response to my post was exactly what I would expect, since it was you who initiated the talk on "types".

    As for LoveLiberty, no thanks. Can't say I ever wanted to be Mumia, especially given the way your crowd has dealt with him. Witch doctor? wHA HA HA HA HA HA! Give me a fucking break, oh great white hope. I've no doubt you've stared down gangsters in LA, after supporting gangsters like D Lay, small time chiselers are nothing. You're afraid to challenge the real criminals.

    Or, as that great patriot Sam Adams said: "Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; may your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget ye were our countrymen."

    There's some "tough talk" for you, eh? Now, I'm off to see my shrink.

    Posted by Jayarjunyah at 09/29/2005 @ 09:37am

36. KYDEMOCRAT,

    What do you think of the term "debauchery"?

    It will be interesting to see if Bush's and DeLay's "Banana Republic of Texas" can rid itself of the callous corrupt conservative culture and the radical religious right's rampant rabidness.

    Posted by oraibi1952 at 09/29/2005 @ 09:38am

37. Don't you have to found guilty in order to be pardoned? If the charges against DElay are dropped before they actually hit the court, then what is left to pardon?

    Kydemocrat,

    To whom shall we turn to after we "wake up'? Hillary? DEan? You think they are what we need?

    God help us all.

    Posted by john maasch at 09/29/2005 @ 09:48am

38. Below a free text essay:

    "The banana republic of texas" orchestrated a pre-emptive war on the Republic, taking power by using weapons of electoral destruction, and using global geopolitical and natural catastrophes to increase the cash-flow of its partisan corporate world, in order to milk-out the country, and spend the result in corruption, debauchery and rampant extremist rabidness. I told you, in fact we are going bananas

    Posted by areyouok at 09/29/2005 @ 09:54am

39. People keep saying this Earle guy is a "hack". 50 cases against people with political connections, 3 cases thrown out. Not a bad record. And he was good enough to get an indictment on DeLay, one of the most powerful folks in the country. I suspect the "hack" label has been given to him by his sore-loser victims. He was successful in getting the indictment. Only his enemies? Well, I'd never call someone who indicted me for anything a friend. The important thing this whole mess really brings up is our corrupt method of procuring money for politicos. As long as the current system exists, there will be corruption. Here's to hoping that this will give campaign finance reform a chance...

    Posted by wereverywhere at 09/29/2005 @ 10:40am

40. This Delay thing appears to be an attempt to get some feel good time for all the frustrated dems who lament their absolute loss of power. This will not get power back. Ideas and plans will gain some back. Just chewing your opponent up without providing anything worthwhile will just promote contemt. GOP couldn't PICK a better group of enemies. Man are they blessed. Gore,Kerry, Dean, Schumer,..my GOD!!

    Dems can't win elections in the arena of ideas and are now looking like muggers with sour grapes. Attack everything in sight and blame Bush for all things. Amazing, the only thing safe from attack by Dems are the terrorists......hmmmm

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 09/28/2005 @ 8:43pm

    all I can say is.....remember Whitewater?? All that money thrown into that useless investigation and now that the Republicans are facing inditements from everywhere, they're crying foul? They were relentless when it came to "investigating" Clinton's Whitewater deal and after all that, no one was charged and no charges were brought against Clinton. This Aministration and Party's philosophy is..."do as I say, not as I do"

    Posted by SOPHIEG60 09/28/2005 @ 7:00pm

    I can't say it better than SOPHIEG60.

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 10:52am

41. JOHN MAASC says -

    Don't you have to found guilty in order to be pardoned? If the charges against DElay are dropped before they actually hit the court, then what is left to pardon?

    No, not in Kentucky. The Kentucky Attorney General issued subpoenas for many top officials in the Fletcher administration. Through testimony and records (most notably e-mails) it was discovered that there was an organized effort to get rid of long time government Civil Service employees by forcing them to take assignments very far from home, forced retirements or just leaving no choice but quitting so that those positions could be filled by the fat cats who work for the Republican party (equally unqualified as Brownie). Things were getting really hot for the Governor so he just decided to "stop" the investigation by pardoning everyone involved even though no indictments had been handed down. Fletcher actually said, "For the best of our state, so we can get back to screwing Kentucky." (Okay, that screwing part was my addition, but you get the idea.) All Fletcher has done now though is backfiring in his face.

    Without the threat of prosecution these Fletcher flunkies are now being subpoenaed before the Grand Jury and are being forced to testify. They can't take the Fifth because they don't have any worries of self incriminations. Wonder if these guys have anything to say about Fletcher in all of this mess? Stay tuned, this could get interesting.

    And yes, ORAIBI1952 I think the term "debauchery" is a perfect description of these people. The Bush Administation is going to make the Tea Pot Dome scandal seem like, well... a tea party.

    The long and the short of it? Republican Party has turned into the special interest, corporate whoring, kill the minorities, send women home, lying Christian Taliban.

    Think about it - do you really see that much difference between the scenes on TV of the Middle East with wild-eyed zealots wandering the streets toting guns and demanding everyone believe like them and the repugs in Congress as wild-eyed zealots wandering the streets of American demanding everyone believe the same as they do? Same tactics, different countries.

    Posted by KyDemocrat at 09/29/2005 @ 12:41pm

42. Our current blogs really have become silly. After a few posts last night, I stopped and started getting ready for bed. My wife asked me what I had been writing. After giving her a summary, she looked at me as if I were the dumbest, dullest man alive--not an impossibility, mind you. My only excuse was that The Nation and much of the rest of the media is consumed right now with purely political issues, things which have little substance nor much connection to our daily lives.

    And so Love Liberty brings up the image of ridding a South African witch doctor of his power by stomping on a snake (he does not refer to "stomping" as his preferred method of demonic snake murder, but I chose it for its expressiveness--strangulation was a close second, however). I need humor like this, so I am grateful to him. But my immediate counter-image was one of Jayarjunyah walking into his local evangelical church and ridding its mortal master of his power simply by removing the collection plates. Ahhh, if only churches appreciated the phrase, "behind closed doors".

    With that said, I'm not going to worry about Delay any more. I have work to do to make certain that my grinning "moderate" democratic senator gets his ass served to him on a plate in 2006.

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 09/29/2005 @ 1:26pm

43. I do see a differnece between the Taliban and GOP. What frightens people like me is that you can so easily connect them.

    I think I am through with the Nation site. Very little common sense and an overabundance of emotional histerics.

    This is my last post.

    I have had my prejudices about liberals in general confirmed. All emotion irrational rambles about American taliban,Delay, Haliburton, Bush.........evil nature of all conservatives.

    It is sad to be so miserible.

    Posted by john maasch at 09/29/2005 @ 2:01pm

44. I cannot fathom why "The Hammer" is "so important" today on "The Nation" and...

    Baucus (D-MT), Yea Bingaman (D-NM), Yea Byrd (D-WV), Yea Carper (D-DE), Yea Conrad (D-ND), Yea Dorgan (D-ND), Yea Feingold (D-WI), Yea Johnson (D-SD), Yea Kohl (D-WI), Yea Landrieu (D-LA), Yea Leahy (D-VT), Yea Levin (D-MI), Yea Lieberman (D-CT), Yea Lincoln (D-AR), Yea Murray (D-WA), Yea Nelson (D-FL), Yea Nelson (D-NE), Yea Pryor (D-AR), Yea Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea Salazar (D-CO), Yea Wyden (D-OR), Yea

    voting FOR the stealth candidate John Roberts gets nothing.

    THIS is why I voted for Kerry in '04...and the sad part is, NONE of those 21 will face any reprecussions and probably HALF of them will vote for the NEXT one as well and claim "Well, we have reservations, but we'll give 'em a chance".

    and few on or reading "The Nation" will care come their re-elections!

    Posted by Mask at 09/29/2005 @ 2:17pm

45. John,

    I am assuming your not here, but for the sake of nothing...What a wonderful thing it is to have prejudices confirmed! It makes things so easy what with the lazy poor people in the South, the criminal African-American communities, those dirty illegal Latinos, straight-shootin' Republicans with Tax 'n' Spend Democrats, and of course all those freedom hating infidels who follow the teachings of Mohammed.

    Whew! Now that that's done I can put on my Birks, light up a dooby, play my guitar and make sweet love to my harem of former flower children.

    Now which group is it that is stereotypically considered "critical thinkers"? Can't seem to recall...

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 09/29/2005 @ 2:28pm

46. Oops! Me and my big mouth about grammar and I wrote "your" instead of "you're". Thirty lashes, but of course as a leftie, I'll enjoy them.

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 09/29/2005 @ 2:29pm

47. "If a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand" (Mk3:25)

    United we stand, divided we fall. Aesop

    Democracy is in a crisis in the USA. Both parties probably love that we sit here and argue back and forth. If we continue to hold to what we think we know, continuing to ignore the facts just so a red can one up a blue, then we deserve to lose our democracy.

    MOst who have read my post would assume that I am a leftie...but I am not one or the other. I am a humanist. I am a history buff. I am a literature buff. I am a cultural study buff. And no one "pod" in the American Pea Pods of political beliefs can restrain my ability to be a free, critical thinker.

    For those of you who have the courage, try to ingest this:

    BERLIN (27 February 1933) - "'This is a God-given signal! If this fire, as I believe, turns out to be the handiwork of Communists, then there is nothing that shall stop us now crushing out this murder pest with an iron fist.' --- Adolf Hitler

    "This crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take a while. We will rid the world of the evil-doers." - President George W. Bush, 16 Sept

    Since we all love quotes, let's play the who said this game:

    1) "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."....

    2) "To those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve.... They give ammunition to BLEEP'S enemies and pause to BLEEP'S friends. They encourage people of good will to remain silent in the face of evil. Our efforts have been crafted carefully to avoid infringing on BLEEP'S rights, while saving BLEEP'S lives."

    Enabling Act (passed after Reichstag Fire)

    Patriot Act (9/11)

    Dachau (earliest internment camp - not a "death camp" at least in early days)

    Guantanamo indefinite detention camp (built by Haliburton, President Cheney's company)

    Quotes: 1. Hermann Goering 2. John Ashcroft

    George Bush:

    The victor will never be asked if he told the truth. --Adolf Hitler

    This administration:

    There is a road to freedom. Its milestones are Obedience, Endeavor, Honesty, Order, Cleanliness, Sobriety, Truthfulness, Sacrifice, and love of the Fatherland. --Adolf Hitler

    George W. Bush and Cronies:

    What luck for rulers, that men do not think. --Adolf Hitler

    George W. Bush and Christian Fundalmentalists:

    Who says I am not under the special protection of God? --Adolf Hitler

    America's dumbing down of education:

    When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side," I calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already... What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community."

    Adolf Hitler

    As for the Christians that support this war...fundamentalists that they are....that is a laugh. They ought to call themselves Godians, because they do not know Christ. "Love thy neighbor as thyself." "Turn the other cheek." "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (I wonder if "Christians" would appreciate having others come into their country to impose their religious beliefs on them, and then, having to be forced to accept it because they are poor, and hungry, and want a better life. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.)

    Regardless if you believe in Jesus Christ or not...if he was alive today, he would be labeled a "pinko, leftist, pacifist!"

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 3:14pm

48. There's no point in jumping up and down over a Ronnie Earle indictment; they all come to naught. This one is likely to unravel particularly quickly as the statute in question explicitly excludes federal officeholders.

    It is especially unseemly to be jubilant over a whiff of odor from DeLay while a stench is coming out of Chuck Schumer's office. You are making silly when you have not even recovered yet from looking hysterical following Katrina and stumblefooted during the Roberts hearings.

    PS: It is not a House rule that a leader must step down on indictment but a GOP rule. The Dems have no such rule.

    Posted by chaztips at 09/29/2005 @ 3:48pm

49. Areyouok:

    I meant to respond earlier. I am not related to Judge Falcone. But my father was nicknamed "Bananas." It had nothing to do with Banana Republics, however.

    Posted by wjfalcone at 09/29/2005 @ 4:54pm

50. Rio,

    Don't bother with Woplock. She is as she says a secular humanist. The only person she really believes in and trusts is herself. As you noted, this so-called "free thinker" is so consumed with stereotypes, it is a wonder she ever can find a free thought.

    I'll let the opening statement of the Humanist Manifesto III determine whether Woplock is even honest about her politics.

    Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.

    Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness. Progressive cultures have worked to free humanity from the brutalities of mere survival and to reduce suffering, improve society, and develop global community. We seek to minimize the inequities of circumstance and ability, and we support a just distribution of nature's resources and the fruits of human effort so that as many as possible can enjoy a good life.

    The responsibility for our lives and the kind of world in which we live is ours and ours alone.

    http://www.americanhumanist.org/3/HumandItsAspirations.php

    There you have it Rio; with Humanists like Woplock, we must bow before her greater wisdom. She has evolved beyond us since she no longer needs a higher power (God) to teach her right from wrong. LOL

    Posted by love liberty at 09/29/2005 @ 5:15pm

51. I see JAYA is still on the warpath. That dude has some serious pent up anger. I believe he's a teacher. Could you imagine your kid in his class? God help us.

    Regarding Ronnie Earle. Didn't he try to bring charges against Delay something like 5 times before, with no grand jury convinced to indict?

    He's a partisian hack.

    Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/29/2005 @ 5:21pm

52. I'm curious. How many times were charges brought against John Gotti before they stuck? Does your comment, USAPRIDE, basically mean that Ronnie Earle is a partisan hack until he proves that DeLay si a hypocritical, criminal bully? Because I am betting this is simply opening the floodgates for federal prosecution for DeLay. Then we'll be pointing to Earle as prescient.

    Posted by jorcheim at 09/29/2005 @ 5:38pm

53. I find DeLay's statement yesterday sickening. He's probably the most hated man in Congress and I can't for him to get convicted. This DA, who is having the fact that he's a Democrat held against him, has indicted more Democrats than Republican in Texas.

    On 'The Abrams Report' DeLay's attorney was being interviewed and, although he called him the Texas DA partisan, he denied that having indicted more Democrats than Republicans in Texas shows he's not partisan. Unreal.

    Posted by ChiroDoc at 09/29/2005 @ 5:42pm

54. RIO BRAVO

    "1.The real question is how can you be right about anything, anybody, or how can you conclude any of your assumtions are correct?"

    I base what I see on history.

    1. We have loss our media. Big Brother is the government which happens to be Republican now. I grew up with politics all around me; I hate politics. I lean to the left, yes, but that doesn't make me a democrat. I refuse to let anyone stick me into an American Peapod -- everyone has to have their label. It doesn't matter which party is in control, they all want to control the media. Turn your attention to Rupert Murdoch, and the fact that since 1993, the number of corporations that control the majority of our media has dropped from 50 to 5 (please, note this is not to mean that all media is owned by the 5; if so, great alternative programs wouldn't exits, such as FSTV): Time Warner; Disney; Murdoch's New Corporation, Bertelsmann of Germany, Viacom (formerly CBS), and GE's NBC is a close 6th. Do you think that if a ride in DisneyLand killed someone that the media owned by Disney would have it all over their news? Murdoch controls media overseas also; it is no hidden fact that his is a multi million dollar donor to the Republican party. And yes, if a Democrat could have gotten there before him, they would have jumped on it too. We are not talking about RED VS BLUE; we are talking about unfair reporting, which just happened to be loss completely (through FCC "deregulation") in the Reagan and Bush administrations. Of course, this couldn't have been the political agenda of either party since the American Public shut down the Vietnam war, could it? After all, isn't Vietnam the last protest Americans were heard on? After all, didn't this administration steal the election in Florida? (Be careful...I live in Florida...I know what happened. I also know those that were cheated of their votes went to Congress to have their voices heard, and not one senator red or blue would stand behind them. So it doesn't matter who -- they are all dirty.

    "2.Where do you get your authority from?"

    From newspapers; alternative views; historians; literature of the times; manifestos -- a whole lot of places. Maybe you could start reading some yourself:

    1984 - George Orwell

    Adventures of Huckleberry Finn (1885) - Mark Twain

    Adventures of Tom Sawyer - Mark Twain

    Age of Reason - Thomas Paine

    Andersonville (1955) - MacKinlay Kantor

    Animal Farm - George Orwell

    Arabian Nights

    As I Lay Dying (1932) - William Faulkner

    Beloved - Toni Morrison

    Black Beauty - Anna Sewell

    Bless Me, Ultima - Rudolfo A. Anaya

    Bluest Eye - Toni Morrison

    Brave New World - Aldous Huxley

    Call of the Wild - Jack London

    Can Such Things Be? - Ambrose Bierce

    Candide - Voltaire

    Canterbury Tales - Geoffrey Chaucer

    Catch 22 - Joseph Heller

    Catcher in the Rye (1951) - J.D. Salinger

    Fahrenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury

    Fanny Hill - John Cleland

    Frankenstein - Mary Shelley

    Gone With the Wind - Margaret Mitchell

    Grapes of Wrath (1939) - John Steinbeck

    Hamlet - William Shakespeare

    Handmaid's Tale - Margaret Atwood

    House of Spirits - Isabel Allende

    Howl - Allen Ginsberg

    I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings - Maya Angelou

    Jude the Obscure - Thomas Hardy

    King Lear - William Shakespeare

    Lady Chatterley's Lover - D.H. Lawrence

    Leaves of Grass - Walt Whitman

    Lolita (1955) - Vladimir Nabokov

    Lord of the Flies - William Golding

    Lysistrata - Aristophanes

    Macbeth - William Shakespeare

    Merchant of Venice - William Shakespeare

    Moll Flanders - Daniel Defoe

    Monk - Matthew Lewis

    Native Son - Richard Wright

    Nigger of the Narcissus - Joseph Conrad

    Nineteen Eighty-Four - George Orwell

    Of Mice and Men - John Steinbeck

    Origin of the Species - Charles Darwin

    Portnoy's Complaint (1969) - Philip Roth

    Rights of Man - Thomas Paine

    Satanic Verses - Salman Rushdie

    Scarlet Letter - Nathaniel Hawthorne

    Separate Peace - John Knowles

    Silas Marner - George Eliot

    Song of Solomon - Toni Morrison

    Sons & Lovers - D.H. Lawrence

    To Kill a Mockingbird - Harper Lee

    Tropic of Capricorn - Henry Miller

    Twelfth Night - William Shakespeare

    Ulysses - James Joyce

    Uncle Tom's Cabin - Harriet Beecher Stowe

    Wrinkle in Time - Madeleine L'Engle

    Should I bother you with the list that the government finds as its favorite, such as Mein Kampf, anything on socialism or communism...should I continue to bore you?

    "3.Who is your God?"

    My God lies within my heart, within my spirit...where He is supposed to be. NOt in church walls, or on the papers written in order to control the populace. My GOD gave me a mind, and a conscieous that allows me to THINK for myself, so that I can avoid "false prophets." There comes a true freedom when you do the right thing for the sake of the right thing instead of doing it out of some primative fear that you will burn in Hell.

    WHO is your God?

    "4.If you don't have one why should anyone who has one listen to you on any moral issue?"

    So you say that only God freaks have morality???

    YOu don't deserve an reply to this one.

    "5.Anyone can quote the Holy Bible out of the context of the book, chapter, or verse to convey or confirm false ideology; hence varied churches of differing dogma so why is your usage germaine to anything?"

    Because the conservative in charge seem to think that they follow the Bible, and it is their "quote[s of] the Holy Bible out of the context of the book, chapter, or verse to convey or confirm false ideology" that this administration is running on.

    "6.Is this now a "Dr.Phil" society where everyone feels "you either get it or you don't" and each person bases their response to others only on their needs for self actualization because in their secular humanistic existence theirs is the only reality plausable?"

    The other George said it better...."forget...forget...."

    "Yea, it is so simplistic and self gratifying NOT to proceed past behavioral psychology 101 labeling, or use the vulgar expletives other liberals on these threads use so unrestrained with. Hmmmm, maybe that is the reason for maintaining these blogs? Simple capitalistic suscribership! What do you think?"

    I don't think you ever passed Psych 101. I on the other hand did. I graduated with a 3.89, thanks to a C on a feminist based research paper that I did for a chauvenist prof that I had....I knew that that he would grade me hard for taking the feminist's position, but I didn't care.

    Now in all fairness....you should have to answer you own questions.

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 5:44pm

55. LOVE LIBERTY

    Thanks once again for passing your judgment on me.

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 5:46pm

56. WOPLOCK:

    I think I'm in love...

    Posted by jorcheim at 09/29/2005 @ 5:51pm

57. I'm curious. How many times were charges brought against John Gotti before they stuck? Does your comment, USAPRIDE, basically mean that Ronnie Earle is a partisan hack until he proves that DeLay si a hypocritical, criminal bully? Because I am betting this is simply opening the floodgates for federal prosecution for DeLay. Then we'll be pointing to Earle as prescient.

    Posted by JORCHEIM

    JORCHEIM,

    They aren't going to get it. They cannot see....

    I read that Ronnie Earle prosecuted 15 higly political cases. Of those 12 were Democrats. I also read that upon being 1 date late for filing his campaign's contributions received, he filed charges against himself and paid the fine.

    He may be anal about the law and prosecuting political scum, but to say "He's a partisian hack" is a blind attempt to disregard the truth with the typical of todays red's washover with a simple word or phrase, although they offer no proof.

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 5:53pm

58. WOPLOCK:

    Erle is well known in Austin as a tough-as-nails legal eagle who does things by the book. As I said on another post, my folks live in TX, near AUS/SA, and while they are both Republicans, they LOVE Earle. I think they are also both voting for Kinky Friedman, presuming he gets the requisite 50k signatories on his petition.

    The bottom line, I think is this. To quote Jack Nicholson, in his role as the Joker in Batman... "This town needs an enema." We need to clean out the nooks and crannies of the houses of power, starting with people just like DeLay, who seek to exploit and bend the system to their will simply to stay in power. Whether those people happen to be Repugs or Dems, they all need to be cleansed. But thank God DeLay is getting is just desserts.

    Posted by jorcheim at 09/29/2005 @ 5:58pm

59. JORCHEIM

    Cheers :-D

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 6:03pm

60. Cheers? hahaha... you've spent too much time with some Limeys.

    Posted by jorcheim at 09/29/2005 @ 6:07pm

61. I just love to see the apologists defend the behaviour of their "fine " Christine brethren. Is the "Hammer" a biblical referance? If this guy is the example of Christian, coservative compssion , I'll turn to Satan worship! These guy's have no idea who Christ is - you can tell by their actions. Bush and all his so called Christian friends are phonies!

    Posted by NO-NONSENSE at 09/29/2005 @ 6:09pm

62. Kinky Friedman was great on Bill Maher. Did you see?

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 6:09pm

63. "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.".... Hermann Goering

    Or as Bush said:

    "either you are with us, or you are with the terrorist."

    I guess that makes me a terrorist. LOL

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 6:12pm

64. Oh yes... he's very easy to like... and while I don't agree with all his positions, he isn't beholden to so much corporate largesse. Let's just hope if he gets elected, he doesn't start whoring himself.

    Posted by jorcheim at 09/29/2005 @ 6:13pm

65. More Nazi wisdom:

    "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."

    Goebbels

    Sounds like the Iraq War to me...

    Posted by jorcheim at 09/29/2005 @ 6:14pm

66. More and more Nazi Wisdom:

    "The art of propaganda lies in understanding the emotional ideas of the great masses and finding through a psychological correct form, the way to the attention and hence to the heart of the broad masses."

    Adolf Hitler....

    In today's syntax:

    The art of propaganda lies in understanding human fears and finding a way to instill fear and emotion so that the majority of people quit using their intellect and base their judgments on what the fear and think instead of what they know.

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 6:21pm

67. *what they fear and think instead of what they know.

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 6:22pm

68. RIO BRAVO

    Patiently waiting for your answers.

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 6:26pm

69. WOPLOCK:

    Are you married? :D

    If not, you wanna be?

    Posted by jorcheim at 09/29/2005 @ 6:39pm

70. JORCHEIM,

    I'm flattered, but I am with children. LOL

    One of my children I pulled out of school and am homeschooling now. Here in S. Florida, they are trying to make the public school kids wear uniforms and all. I raised my children to be free-thinkers, and they are...we have lively political debates here.

    My son, while in school, was asked what would he do different with the government. He's in the 8th grade, and he replied, "I would get rid of the Presidential office. Why do we need one when we can elect people to vote and make the laws." (I paraphrased.)...to which his teacher announced to the class that my son was an "anarchist" and he was sent to detention.

    I pulled him out and we home school via the computer.

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 6:54pm

71. FRANKGRITS,

    I've read most. That is the banned book list.

    I'm sure the leaders and corporate heads have read quite a bit, but I imagine their main reads include, but are not limited to:

    The Prince by Nicolò Machiavelli

    Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 6:57pm

72. I am curious to know what broadcast news people watch.

    I have satellite, so I watch quite a few, but I seem to watch CNN and FSTV the most... varying viewpoints between the two.

    Am I missing a good source? I only ask because I have MS, and sometimes reading is difficult for me.

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 7:02pm

73. JORCHEIM: Did you campare John Gotti to Tom Delay!!!

    This is just plain laughable.

    Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/29/2005 @ 7:06pm

74. USA Pride, a genuine and much appreciated concern on your part, but the fact of the matter is I view politicizing my students as unprofessional and unethical. Many of the parents of my students are conservative, but stood with me twice when I was laid off by the district, because the fact is I don't indoctrinate young people or force my politics on my students. Which is not to say they don't know where I'm coming from in class forums, but I do believe in the most widespread and challenging dialogue in my classroom. Anything other practice is backwards. It's not about me.

    NO, I save the rage for guys like you in forums like this. It's cathartic, it's even amusing, and don't try to tell me you're above the practice. But I understand and respect your concern about how students are exposed to political discourse, and I appreciate you raising it, really. First thing I've ever agreed with you on.

    That's not to say I don't find other outlets for what I genuinely believe in, or that I'm not active on a number of fronts. But that's not what I teach, not on the public time or dime.

    Loved the comment about the collection plates, Tjbehrensi. There. Got it all said. Back to the fireworks.

    Posted by Jayarjunyah at 09/29/2005 @ 7:28pm

75. JORCHEIM: Did you campare John Gotti to Tom Delay!!!

    Posted by USAPRIDE 09/29/2005 @ 7:06pm

    JORCHEIM, How dare you?! LOL....Don't you know that no one ever kissed Delay on each cheek?

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 7:35pm

76. JAYARJUNYAH,

    And you are moving to S. Florida to teach? When?

    Thank you for doing a selfless job...someone kids wherever you live may actually grow up thinking!

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 7:37pm

77. Woplock and Jorchiem,

    I enjoyed your posts today. They resonate with great cartoon in this week's New Yorker. Two guys in a suits are talking, and the caption is "Encouraging dissent is a good way of finding out who the traitors are." :>

    Cheers!

    Posted by 9patch at 09/29/2005 @ 7:38pm

78. J: I hope I'm not overstepping here. Please let me know if I am. Why were you laid off? Was it simple economics, or something else?

    Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/29/2005 @ 7:40pm

79. Ah, budget cuts, you know. Not enough seniority, etc. And so it goes. Thanks for asking.

    Posted by Jayarjunyah at 09/29/2005 @ 7:58pm

80. J: Well, I hope you are gainfully employed and enjoying a comfortable living. All things considered that is.

    Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/29/2005 @ 8:08pm

81. with Humanists like Woplock, we must bow before her greater wisdom. She has evolved beyond us since she no longer needs a higher power (God) to teach her right from wrong. LOL

    Posted by LOVE LIBERTY 09/29/2005 @ 5:15pm

    No need to scoff. Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done. For some of us, the golden rule is self-evident. For others, well, they must have the Super Dad in the sky tell them to treat others the way they want to be treated. Which one are you?

    Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 09/29/2005 @ 8:18pm

82. ILOVEPHYSICS:

    I think he's the one who sees the vengeful, wrathful God of the Old Testament, rather than the one he likes to tell everyone he sees, that being the loving God of the New Testament. Either way, I think he's worshipping Mammon.

    Posted by jorcheim at 09/29/2005 @ 8:26pm

83. Delay is worse than Gotti simply because he uses strong arm tactics, hurts anyone who dares to defy him and still has the audacity to call himself a Christian. My brother is a minnister and I know some fine Christians - none of them have anything in their character that would earn them such a nickname as the "Hammer" ! .......

    So again, I must assert that this scumbag is the worst kind of Human being - He pretends to be moral and high minded but he is just another power hungry rat! Gotti wasn't a hippocrite either - he never pretended to be altruistic! It could be argued that Delay is much more dangerous than a guy like Gotti because his influence is far greater........

    Tell me of any real Christian that would embrace the characteristics that have earned this guy such a moniker?

    Posted by NO-NONSENSE at 09/29/2005 @ 8:32pm

84. RIO BRAVO, LOVE LIBERTY

    "with Humanists like Woplock, we must bow before her greater wisdom. She has evolved beyond us since she no longer needs a higher power (God) to teach her right from wrong."

    Thank you, and when you get up from saying your daily prayers to God Bush, please, answer the very questions you posed to me, or can you?

    Well, fellow lefties, since I have now been assigned that PeaPod, at least I finally got a conservative to say the word "evolved."

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 8:54pm

85. NN: Delay is worse than Gotti? Help, I'm going insane!

    I want at least one of you progs/libs to denounce that statement.

    C'mon, just one with some balls. If it doesn't come, you all have exposed youselves as insincere slugs.

    Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/29/2005 @ 9:09pm

86. USAPRIDE,

    Do you know for a fact that Delay doesn't have any bodies at the bottom of rivers wearing concrete boots?

    If I understood you wrongly, then I apologize in advance, but it sounded slightly like you were alluding to Italian Mafioso stereotypes, which of course, were the worse bad guys ever on the face of this earth. Of course, I may be paranoid.

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 9:14pm

87. I think what no nonsense was attempting to say is that at least Gotti was who he was and didn't pretend to be something else.

    You know what I am talking. Who is more honest? The hooker on the street, or the woman who stays with her husband because he has a nice bankroll and an elegant house? Or better yet, because he may one day be the President? That goes for red and blue.

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 9:17pm

88. USAPRIDE:

    And just so you know, I do equate Gotti with DeLay. In fact, it's well known in Texas that some of the scams DeLay has pulled off would make old man Gotti blush as a corpse. But seeing as you know everything, you probably already knew that.

    Posted by jorcheim at 09/29/2005 @ 9:21pm

89. This is incredible. Please, somebody out there on the left denounce this nonsense. This is boring. Where's all the real and sincere posters? I guess none of you have the balls. Just gonna sit this one out I see.

    Gotti and Delay... Wait, sounds like a good name for one of those Mafia Italian hangouts. But, knowing Delay, he'll make it into a franchise and ruin the charm.

    Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/29/2005 @ 9:33pm

90. USAPRIDE:

    A crook is a crook. I bet you're one of those guys who believe that Nixon really didn't do anything wrong.

    Posted by jorcheim at 09/29/2005 @ 9:45pm

91. Are the people comparing DeLay with Gotti the base of the Democratic Party? I hope not. If so the party is hopelessley lost.

    Posted by Zeddmen at 09/29/2005 @ 9:45pm

92. ZEDDMEN:

    The republic is hopelessly lost. Who cares about the Democratic party anyway? As I have stated before, the Dems are just as bad as the Repugs. There's very little difference between the two.

    Posted by jorcheim at 09/29/2005 @ 9:49pm

93. JORCHEIM: No, Nixon was a crook. He deserved what he got.

    Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/29/2005 @ 9:55pm

94. I'm afraid the entire world is hopelessly lost.

    Posted by Zeddmen at 09/29/2005 @ 9:56pm

95. USAPRIDE:

    Well, at least I still have a scintilla of respect for you. How about G. Gordon Liddy?

    Posted by jorcheim at 09/29/2005 @ 9:59pm

96. Amazing amazing our democracy! Martha Stewart the home goddess went to jail and Delay the criminal regals.

    Posted by HelenDAO at 09/29/2005 @ 10:00pm

97. JORCHEIM: Liddy - bad. Arrogance is his soulmate.

    Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/29/2005 @ 10:05pm

98. USAPRIDE:

    Your stock is rising. Maybe Frist can try doing some insider trading on your value, before it precipitously falls again.

    Posted by jorcheim at 09/29/2005 @ 10:07pm

99. I know you will all miss me, but I must retire. But if pain keeps me awake...I may return...so beware!! :-D LOL

    Both parties are foul.

    Guess that makes me not only a terrorist, but an anarchist too.

    I'm proud of that because I join many great people. Wish I had some tea to throw into the bay. Do you suppose Pepsi would do?

    I leave you with a song. You think we would have "evolved" beyond war now...rational talk is still a thing of the future.

    War What is it good for Absolutely nothing War What is it good for Absolutely nothing

    War is something that i despise For it means destruction of innocent lives For it means tears in thousands of mothers' eyes When their sons go out to fight to give their lives

    War What is it good for Absolutely nothing Say it again War What is it good for Absolutely nothing

    War It's nothing but a heartbreaker War Friend only to the undertaker War is the enemy of all mankind The thought of war blows my mind Handed down from generation to generation Induction destruction Who wants to die

    War What is it good for Absolutely nothing Say it again War What is it good for Absolutely nothing

    War has shattered many young men's dreams Made them disabled bitter and meanlife is too precious to be fighting wars Each day War can't give life it can only take it away

    War It's nothing but a heartbreaker War Friend only to the undertaker Peace love and understanding There must be some place for these things today They say we must fight to keep our freedom But lord there's gotta be a better way That's better than War

    Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 10:08pm

100. AMEN to that.

     Posted by jorcheim at 09/29/2005 @ 10:09pm

101. Yes HELEN,

     But Martha had the gall to lie about an action that was not illegal. DeLay is lying about actions that his indictment says are illegal. You see the difference of course. You see that Martha's punishment had to be harsher than anything the DeLay's will be.

     But in many ways they are the same. If you've got money and you get slapped on the wrist, you can always buy really cushy cufflinks that serve as wrist protection and you'll soon have a new show or a new job as a political strategist.

     All the rest of us can do is sigh and whine. Sigh!

     Posted by tjbehrens1 at 09/29/2005 @ 10:09pm

102. Sorry...but one last thought.

     I think all should enter the age when they come to blog. I would rather not verbally beat up on an 18 year old. It also might explain some of the totally uninformed responses.

     Just a last minute thought.....I know what I can do with it. LOL

     Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 10:13pm

103. And how many candles were on WOPLOCK's cake last birthday?

     Posted by tjbehrens1 at 09/29/2005 @ 10:20pm

104. THIS JUST IN:

     THE HAMMER GET'S NAILED!!!!

     Posted by POSEIDON at 09/29/2005 @ 10:24pm

105. READ ALL ABOUT IT!!

     TOMMY BOY DELAY INDICTED!!

     Posted by POSEIDON at 09/29/2005 @ 10:25pm

106. good read http://prorev.com/legacy.htm

     Posted by ibwright at 09/29/2005 @ 10:25pm

107. JORCHEIM: If you're still out there, no hard feelings. Maybe we can toe it up one day. I'm not coming up your way. Let me know if you ever plan to be in central Florida.

     I'll step up. I think it would be fun. No boxing, just man to man. Let me know.

     See ya later.

     Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/29/2005 @ 10:26pm

108. USAPRIDE:

     I wasn't talking about boxing. I was talking about no holds barred type stuff, which is what I compete in.

     And ok. No hard feelings. Let's just keep it to the issues. And not personal attacks. I think we can both try to take that advice.

     Posted by jorcheim at 09/29/2005 @ 10:30pm

109. JORCHEIM: Agreed. No need to be rude to one another.

     But please, think about my offer. Maybe you could plan a vacation down this way. And yes, we are on the same page with regard to setting. For better or worse, passion is the key element to our existence.

     Anyway, sleep tight my freind.

     Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/29/2005 @ 10:37pm

110. 41

     Not a babyboomer....not a generation X'r....

     We are the PeaPodless generation....LOL Oh my jokes are really bad.

     Not back lurking...had to set my PVR to catch PBS special on the 60's....LOL..as if you care why I am here...TMI?

     Posted by woplock at 09/29/2005 @ 10:54pm

111. I'm 39 with the big one looming less than 3 months from now.

     So now we know that if we find ourselves in an argument we are both sufficiently mature to insult each other with both barrels blazing. Not planning on it, but you never know on these sites...

     Posted by tjbehrens1 at 09/29/2005 @ 11:01pm

112. A well-timed insult can turn a boring thread into a fun thread!

     Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 09/30/2005 @ 01:43am

113. No need to scoff. Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done. For some of us, the golden rule is self-evident. For others, well, they must have the Super Dad in the sky tell them to treat others the way they want to be treated. Which one are you?

     Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS 09/29/2005 @ 8:18pm

     No, I just don't have the arrogance to think that I am greater than God. All wisdom, all grace, all mercy, and all love comes from God. To attribute it to ourselves is to be guilty of Satan's fall, he loved and honored himself more than God.

     Posted by love liberty at 09/30/2005 @ 01:54am

114. LOVE LIBERTY

     Thanks once again for passing your judgment on me.

     Posted by WOPLOCK 09/29/2005 @ 5:46pm

     Actually, we judge ourselves guilty when we refuse to submit to God and give Him the glory He is due. That is at the heart of free will.

     Posted by love liberty at 09/30/2005 @ 01:57am

115. LOVE LIBERTY

     Lucky for you, my pain is keeping me from sleep. God's divine plan?

     We've been here before LL; I have admitted to you that in your eyes I am a heathen of the worse sorts. I would have it no other way.

     You didn't respond to my question earlier. If a person from another country came here to shove their religion down your throat in between spoons of rice and beef, would you like it? If you were starving and poor, and all that was on your mind was a meal and a chance at living, would you listen? Would you pay that price for a meal, shelter, and clothing? Would you like it? Keep in mind Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

     Oh..and by the way...quit wasting your time on trying to convert me...been there done that.

     George Carlin said it best:

     "Religion is sort of like a lift in your shoes. If it makes you feel better, fine. Just don't ask me to wear your shoes."

     Posted by woplock at 09/30/2005 @ 02:09am

116. LL, We are just going to have to agree to disagree on religion. There is NO WAY you will EVER convince me that Satan is real. Think of how impossible it would be for me to convince you to renounce christianity, and that is how impossible it is for you to get me to believe your preaching.

     Posted by ILOVEPHYSICS at 09/30/2005 @ 02:11am

117. RIO BRAVO,

     You made me smile. :-)

     I have made and am making my spiritual journey, it just doesn't fall into the doctrines of any church. I have studies religions across the globe, and have the utmost respect for Joseph Campbell. Everyone has a hero; he is mine. What a delight it would have been to meet him in life.

     I am going to elaborate here for you in the hopes that I don't offend the board, but also in the hopes that it will get you and LL off my back. :-D

     I have lived a hard life. I am totally disabled, barely able to make ends meet, and although I had done everything "right" in life (went on to higher education, went through voc rehab, went to church every Sunday, was a loyal and faithful wife, blah, blah, blah.), the "God" that I grew up seem to keep knocking me down, or never seemed to answer my prayers. Please, don't bother me on that last statement, I know what the Christian reply to that is. Anyways, one day as I struggled to push my walker through the snow (I used to live in Indiana) trying to make it to my next class on time (part of voc rehab), a perfectly formed snowflake fell on my black backpack that was in my walker basket. I stopped, and marveled at it. At that moment, I was filled with an inexplicable awe. I was no longer angry at God. But with this came a sense of the mysterious. I have no other word for it. I do not believe that any person can say what "God" is. I do not believe in the literal translation of the Bible. I do see its value as a work of literature; I do see its value as a guide for a time in our distant history when humans had no form of law. LL accused me of being "arrogant," when in fact I am quite the opposite. I don't presume to know anything about God. I don't try to make Him a human by sitting him on a throne in heaven looking down on us over his overflowing white beard while checking his list to see who has been naughty or nice. To do so, one might as well call him Santa Claus. I am amazed by the unknown. And I do hold to one solid belief about God, if he meant for us to have all these churches, why did he give us a brain and a conscieous if we need a man or woman behind a pulpit telling us right from wrong? We have more than brains...we have minds, and that is what distinguishes us from the other animals in this world.

     I respect everyone's right to decide what God means to them. I highly resent (which is evident in my posts) when people try to force their beliefs on to someone else.

     Here...a poem that I wrote...go ahead...laugh.

     Power

     Take your cassocks, collars, and beads.

     What use are they to me?

     Take your rituals, temples, and sacred texts.

     What meaning have they for me?

     Take your Hell and fear of Armageddon.

     They are powerless over me.

     For I have seen Power

     in white, red, yellow, black, and brown;

     It gleams on the petals of daffodils, pansies,

     and dandelions. Bounding forth from

     oak to pine to palm spiraling downward--

     not on golden wings, but on bluebirds

     or blackbirds, or pigeons

     -- for all that matters.

     Power wears the mask of evil unveiling good,

     Pushing me forward through time, directing

     my quest -- not for the end, but to experiences

     of being one with Him.

     Happy? Will you and LL leave me alone now, and just debate the issues? Please? :-D

     Posted by woplock at 09/30/2005 @ 04:05am

118. I still cannot sleep...let's see what idle time has spawned!

     20 books or writings that in Woplock's humble opinion all people should read (in no particular order):

     1. The Prince - Nicolò Machiavelli 2. Manifesto of the Communist Party - Karl Marx 3. Mein Kampf – Adolf Hitler 4. Principles of Political Economy: And Chapters on Socialism – John Stuart Mill 5. A Modest Proposal – Jonathan Swift 6. Paradise Lost – John Milton 7. The Metamorphosis – Franz Kafka 8. Heart of Darkness – Joseph Conrad 9. Silas Marner – George Eliot 10. The Mythic Dimension: Selected Essays 1959-1987 (Collected Works of Joseph Campbell) 11. As I Lay Dying – William Faulkner 12. Paradise – Toni Morrison 13. The Color Purple – Alice Walker 14. Tintern Abbey – Willaim Wordsworth 15. Charlotte Perkins Gilman – The Yellow Wallpaper 16. A People's History of the United States – Howard Zinn 17. American Holocaust: The Conquest of the New World – Dean Stannard 18. Mourt's Relation: A Journel of the Pilgrims at Plymouth – William Bradford and Edward Winslow 19. Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West – Dee Brown 20. The Bible

     Some are hard to ingest, but as we all know...not everything that is good for us tastes good. LOL

     Posted by woplock at 09/30/2005 @ 05:27am

119. Once again, I'm sorry....but John Nichols is covering the REAL story this week (Roberts)...it's not "The Hammer".

     in ten years....

     1. We will be out of Iraq, one way or the other

     2. 99% of New Orleans will be back in business

     3. Bush's poll numbers COULD be in the 60s again

     4. Nobody, but a few wonks, will remember Michael Brown, Cindy Sheehan OR Tom Delay.

     5. But... CHIEF JUSTICE John Roberts will be starting his SECOND health-filled decade at the United States Supreme Court.....probably along with the OTHER one, possibly two, possibly THREE "Bush-43" appointees.

     Posted by Mask at 09/30/2005 @ 08:58am

120. A more pertinent question is to ask waht does PRIDE think of OLLIE NORTH - that dopey schill for Reagan? North is the best example of how loyalty can be exploited for the wacky agenda of corrupt administration. Let us not forget that it was Reagan who first said, " we will not deal with terrorists." Then he just went ahead and did it covertly!.........

     I think it is perfectly fair to compare these people who defame the character of our nation to mobsters! Now Bush is doing the same thing and he has the same kind of people working for him. Hell, they learned everything they know from their evil Republican forefathers - like Henry Kissinger. These guys are the modern day MACHIAVELLI'S! And yes they are global mobsters! they don't destroy nieghborhoods though - they destroy entire nations! How many lives is a guy like Kissinger responsible for ending?.......

     So , yeah these guys are just as bad because they have vast influence - beyond even our borders - and they get rich from politics - the lowest form of human exsistance!

     Posted by NO-NONSENSE at 09/30/2005 @ 10:33am

121. DELAY is a "Christian" thug! Again I ask any of you " Born agains" to defend the character of this guy? Come on ! Let's here it for schemeing, strong arm behaviour! Don't all Christians believe in that! You dimiss the severity or legitamacy of the indictment but let's hear you clearly defend this guy so we can see your true character!

     Posted by NO-NONSENSE at 09/30/2005 @ 10:47am

122. MASK,

     I agree with you, but there wasn't any "legitimate" reason to not let him through, if you go by the hearings, since he did the double talk two-step so well.

     The next nominee, I do believe, will be met with a full-fledged filibuster. And if another right "fanatic" gets through, well, what can I say? That's what we get when only half of the VAP votes. I'm planning to "sign up" to register voters, then I'm hitting the streets. I don't care how they vote, as long as they vote. We can't have a democracy without voters; we can't let these bozo's, red and blue, know that we mean business if we don't vote. This is the only way that I can think of to actively participate in bringing back our democracy. If someone has a better idea, I'd love to hear it. The US needs to have a huge turn-over in the next election. I just wonder if anyone is aware of the fact that the US has a 98% return rate to the Congress. (Oops..maybe shouldn't have called that fact...can't remember where I read it at..), and the Soviest have a 92% return rate. What does that tell us about how well we know our Congress?

     Mask, if it makes you feel any better, I find it amusing that the right probably put a closet homesexual on the court!

     (Of course, when someone is trying to fight what one thinks is his "demons," it could prove costly for our homosexual community.)

     Posted by woplock at 09/30/2005 @ 10:58am

123. ON LIBERTY.. ON PRIDE... ON BRAVO... ON BLITZEN!

     Come on guys- you gladly tow the "sliegh" full of crap for your party! This guy is the SANTA CLAUS of your party! He's the guy that delivers! Let's hear you sing his praises! Tell us all how a fine Christian earns the name " HAMMER " !

     Posted by NO-NONSENSE at 09/30/2005 @ 10:59am

124. Please, excuse typos, and transposed letters!! No sleep! LOL *Soviets *closet homosexual etc....etc....etc.......

     Posted by woplock at 09/30/2005 @ 11:02am

125. NN: You shouldn't use stereotypes, lest you be stereotyped.

     Posted by USAPRIDE at 09/30/2005 @ 11:56am

126. Pride;

     It doesn't get any lamer than that! Come on man , pony up! Is it stereotyping to suggest that Christians are supposed to behave in a more honorable manner than a guy like DELAY! You just can't recognise your parties hypocracy! I guess it's ok to be the "HAMMER" for Jesus!......

     Come on, you guys always are full of platitudes - lets hear you stand up for your party's heroe!

     Posted by NO-NONSENSE at 09/30/2005 @ 12:06pm

127. NO-NONSENSE,

     You may appreciate this question. LOL....I laugh, but the question is a serious one.

     Why is that in this great, rich, supposedly leader of the world, country that a president can be tried for impeachment over a lie about a blow-job, but not over a lie that started a war?

     Is this the American Puritan ethic running strong? So we can kill and invade because of Divine Providence and/or Manifest Destiny, to promote our "superior" lifestyle, but we can't have oral sex or adultey because, of course, those are far more terrifying than sanctions that kill children, and bombs that wipe out populations? We all know that blow jobs and adultry does more damage to the moral fiber of this great country than does the rape and subjugation of entire cultures. Right?

     I would like a legitimate response to this serious question. No political glossing over with "whatever." No Bible thumping. No red or blue. No, "Oh, you would defend all of Clinton's action?" because no I would not. This is a simple question which answer is packed with, what I believe, truckloads of what runs rampant in this country...hypocrisy. A straightforward reply is all I ask.

     Posted by woplock at 09/30/2005 @ 12:21pm

128. What's that I here?..........

     Is it the sound of silence? No, I think it's the sound of BULLSHIT blowing in the wind! Only one lame response from Pride!......

     No you can't defend this guy because he is indefensible! He is the epitamy of Right-Wing, Christian hypocracy!

     Posted by NO-NONSENSE at 09/30/2005 @ 12:22pm

129. RIO BRAVO,

     In all fairness to No-Nonsense, many did the same thing to me, even though I went at length (which is well beyond the scope of this board) to answer questions about my beliefs. I told all that I didn't belong to any PeaPod, but I continuely referred to as a leftie, liberal.

     Posted by woplock at 09/30/2005 @ 12:26pm

130. In other words, quit nit-picking, and answer the question.

     It's obvious his question is directed at supporters of Delay.

     Nit-picking, IMHO, is just another avoidance tatic.

     Posted by woplock at 09/30/2005 @ 12:30pm

131. Woplock;

     Forget it! These guys don't answer questions. They don't have answers just hollow rhetoric!

     Posted by NO-NONSENSE at 09/30/2005 @ 12:40pm