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RedditConsumer activist Ralph Nader railed against the deregulations that made possible the orgy of greed that led to the current banking crisis. He warned that the crisis was coming. He challenged the members of Congress and presidential candidates to address it when other the politicians were arguing about whether it was fair to compare Barack Obama to Paris Hilton and Sarah Palin to a pig.
Now, the independent candidate for president is railing against the bailout of the banks and the new challenges that a congressional majority that includes Democratic presidential candidate Obama and Republican John McCain has created for American taxpayers and American democracy.
Here's the word on the bailout from Nader and his running-mate, Matt Gonzalez:
Now that Congress has done the dastardly deed in approving Bush's bailout, Ralph Nader, independent candidate for president, is issuing a call for American taxpayers to summon their members of Congress who voted for this wrongheaded $700 billion bailout of the Wall Street speculators and crooks to meet in a local public auditorium and answer up for their surrender to the corporate welfare kings and banksters.After the empty champagne bottles are carted away on Capitol Hill and the legislative wastrels receive their signing pens at the Bush ceremony in the White House comes the reckoning back home. The days before the election are when taxpayers have the greatest leverage over their senators and representatives. It is the time when even cowardly legislators can neither run nor hide from the outrage, the sense of betrayal and gross unfairness pouring forth from the people of America of all political backgrounds. No wonder 90 percent of the people believe America is in decline.
Taxpayers can obtain information with much detail taking apart this bailout deal from many sources. The Nader/Gonzalez website contains a ten point plan that shows how to legislate in the public interests of the workers, consumers and tax-payers, punish the wrongdoers and prevent another such financial collapse of casino capitalism from a repeat future rush to Washington to feed at the trough of socialism.
Americans are crying out -- ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! For themselves and their children. Summon your senators and representatives to a school auditorium before November 4, 2008 and instruct them in no uncertain terms. After all, your senators and representatives are supposed to work for you, not against you and for the corporate greedhounds and gamblers with your pension, mutual funds and small investor's money.
Ask why they didn't require speculators to fund their own bailout while you, the taxpayer, pay 5-10 percent sales tax for necessities. Speculators buy $500 trillion of securities derivatives each year and don't pay one penny. A mere 1/10 of 1 percent sales tax on purchases of these derivatives would raise $500 billion per year to pay for their bailout. Let the speculators fund their own bailout
Why didn't they comprehensively re-regulate the financial services industry to prevent future collapses?
Why didn't they give shareholders the authority to control the companies they own including their out-of-control bosses?
Why didn't they provide the resources for a corporate crime crackdown?
The New York Times lead editorial this Thursday lamented the "sweetened" version of the bill passed by Senate for doing too "little to avert the defaults and foreclosures that are pushing house values ever downward," and called it "unwise and unfair" to leave struggling American homeowners out of the bailout bill. Why did this bill provide nothing to prevent or avert homeowners' foreclosures?
Dallas Federal Reserve Bank President Richard Fisher chalked up the cause of the financial markets crisis to "a sustained orgy of excess and reckless behavior."
Now Congress has engaged in its own sustained orgy of excess and reckless behavior.
Socialism is fine for the uber-wealthy, not so good for the poor, I guess is the new theory.
40 million uninsured, people dying because they cannot afford basic health care? Tough titties! Incestors in fear that their house of cards might fall... hand them 700B.
where is the "personal responsibility"? Where is the "free mkt"? Are we supposed to trust the same people that got us into this mess to get us out?
Crock of Stimpy!
Posted by crabwalk at 10/04/2008 @ 09:41am
Some of O's top contributors:
Goldman Sachs
Citigroup
JPMorgan Chase
UBS
Lehman Bros
McCain:
Merril Lynch
Citigroup
Morgan Stanley
Goldman Sach
JP Morgan Chase
Credit Suisse
Wachovia
Bank of AMerica
Lehman Bros
Bear Stearns
Is it any wonder that these graduates of the top business schools in America, these Titans of industry, these economic geniuses NEED YOUR money to get them back into their mansions and clubhouses?
Are they going to give back ANY of the millions they raped from us?
whys doesn't the MSM ask about these connections and the back scratching that is all too apparent? Could it have anything to do with the millions these companies pay for add space? Nahh.
Vote Nader.
Posted by crabwalk at 10/04/2008 @ 10:13am
I'm glad there has been a bailout. Sure, it's socialism, but I'm a socialist.
Of course, it would have been better to distribute more money to people who really need it and less to those who really don't. This is how real socialism is supposed to work.
And of course, it would have been much better to have regulated the financial system thoroughly enough to have prevented an expensive disaster like this. But we didn't, so we now have to take the medicine.
What I would like to see my fellow Americans realize is the bankruptcy of the notion that wealth is created by investors, rather than by workers with natural resources. For 30 years and more, we have been living under the delusion that all wealth is created by investors, the "golden geese" who would give us everything we wish for, if only we would agree to fatten them.
This is why we tax investment income so little, placing most of the burden on income generated by work, for example through social security taxes. We should listen to Nader and tax investment income more, so that people who get the most of this would think a little more carefully before they start playing shell games with other people's money. And we should make the rich pay their fair share for social security.
I believe every kind of tax should be progressive. A little investment income should be taxed at a low rate, a lot at a higher rate. The same goes for every other kind of income.
The only ethical thing to do with an excess of good fortune is to share it.
Posted by JakobFabian at 10/04/2008 @ 10:56am
Maybe Nader should have run for a national office that he could win so he could try to do something rather than just talk because anyone can talk and criticize if you aren't the one who has to vote in order to get reelected.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/04/2008 @ 11:19am
Obama is out. wont vote for him or anyone who voted for the bail out.Let my congress people know about it. We need a national strike against this crooked plan
Posted by pachonegro at 10/04/2008 @ 12:26pm
And now the usual CRABWALK/ZERO/Looney lowell combo...
with a GOP poser or two thrown in for good measure.
Another thing (McCain or Obama) good about November 5th...
Ralph Nader off the radar screen for another 4 years.
Posted by Maskdelta at 10/04/2008 @ 12:57pm
Michael Moore has a 10 point plan called "Mikes Rescue Plan." It is actually quite good.
www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=237
Posted by chaoszen at 10/04/2008 @ 1:26pm
But the horse is already out of the barn..
Posted by chaoszen at 10/04/2008 @ 1:30pm
"He warned that the crisis was coming. He challenged the members of Congress and presidential candidates to address it when other the politicians were arguing about whether it was fair to compare Barack Obama to Paris Hilton and Sarah Palin to a pig."
which was soooo long ago!!! geez! if we had just listened to ralph WAAAYYYYY back when "the politicians were arguing about whether it was fair to compare Barack Obama to Paris Hilton and Sarah Palin to a pig." we might have avoided this whole mess!
not...
lot of good points from mr. nader, as always, but...
i think pensioners and many others would have a lot more to complain about if this sickening rush job bailout had not been passed.
hopefully once the repugnant satano-aynrandos are ot of the presidency, congress and the president will have some time to sit down and hash out some real reform and progressive stuff...with the support of a non satano-aynrando pack of incompetants bumbling their way through executive privilegeland...
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 1:53pm
Ralph Nader off the radar screen for another 4 years.
Posted by Maskdelta at 10/04/2008 @ 12:57pM
Any meaningful change, in any area, off the radar screen for another 4,8 or more years.
But it doesn't matter to anyone with a myopic, "it's always been two parties, so everything else is irrelevant", point of veiw.
Remember, a vote for Nader is worse than a vote for Bush. Right?
Posted by Malcontent at 10/04/2008 @ 1:55pm
Posted by Malcontent at 10/04/2008 @ 1:55pm | ignore this person | warn this person
look...i like nader and generally agree with him...
but it looks like obama will end up winning this election and be the next president of the USA...
and yes...i am indeed pretty convinced his administration will not implement half of what i in my wildest dreams would like, nor what you seem to think is realistically possible in the near future...
if obama spoke like nader or kucinich...he would not stand a chance...at least now.
don't pass some kind of bailout, let our economy tank out great depression style...and THEN indeed i see some kind of nader or kucinich having a real shot at power...
but the problem with that is that would involve sitting back and allowing such to happen.
i'll wait to judge an obama/biden presidency until it has had the chance to do something on which it can be judged.
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 2:06pm
with the support of a non satano-aynrando pack of incompetants bumbling their way through executive privilegeland...
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 1:53pm | ignore this person | warn this person
oops...should read "without the "support" of..."
oh well.
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 2:08pm
Posted by JakobFabian at 10/04/2008 @ 10:56am
Well said. Although this is "disaster capitalism" as Zero point out, given that the dems are likely to potentially control all 3 arms of government within a few years, this is an opportunity to quasi-nationalize the banking industry within the left's ideological framework.
Part of the problem of the "bailout" is its semantic interpretation. The current situation is a perfect example of the necessary symbiosis between government and industry. Both are necessary. Had we failed to act, the resonance of the crippling of the wealth producers of our nation would be felt harshly widespread. Now that we have acted, the stage is set to remodel the economic infrastructure and distribute wealth in Keynsian tradition. I think we'll see this even if McCain happens to win-- because it'll be necessary to transcend the looming recession.
Posted by FcukReagan at 10/04/2008 @ 2:31pm
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 2:06pm
I think you're right that if we really had not acted and a 2nd great depression is the result, a Nader or Kucinich could much more easily take office with a sudden, mass awakening of economic populism. But don't discount the fact that the right will preach their brand of populism as well; that this is all somehow the result of the godless, amoral Hollywood culture-- "God, Guns, and Gays!" Recent history, at least, has shown that enough people are dumb enough to buy this.
Posted by FcukReagan at 10/04/2008 @ 2:40pm
Real change in Washington will come when the two party stranglehold is broken.
Obama has this one wrapped up which means four more years (at least) of big money special interest groups running the country.
A vote for Nader is not thrown away. The number voting for alternate party candidates grows with every passing election. It's only a matter of time before a majority discover the dems and repubs are the same sorry group.
NADER/GONZALES '08
Posted by bleedingheart at 10/04/2008 @ 3:51pm
The number voting for alternate party candidates grows with every passing election. Posted by bleedingheart at 10/04/2008 @ 3:51pm
What percentage of the vote do you suppose Nader will get this year?
Posted by FcukReagan at 10/04/2008 @ 4:04pm
bleedinheart-It should only take another hundred years or so for Nader and other third parties to put the big two down.In the meantime we get Bush and possibly McCain.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/04/2008 @ 4:08pm
the only thing more pathetic than ralph nader running year after year after year are the people who continue to vote for him. seriously, folks, it ain't happening. your vote actually hurts the chances of the "lesser of two evils" (as nader voters surely see the democratic party) from getting into office. so while you may give yourself a nice little pat on the back and reassure yourself by pompously stating " i voted for nader", you should also realize you made no change whatsoever and could have done the same thing sitting at home and never going to the voting booth.
Posted by palehorse67 at 10/04/2008 @ 4:25pm
Ralph Nader off the radar screen for another 4 years.
Posted by Maskdelta at 10/04/2008 @ 12:57pm
and with it the truth......
obviously, appearing out of the blue every four years is not the answer.
but this robbery is ROBBERY.
and I am gonna pay for it!
it ain't even my frikkin' country!
por favor.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 4:26pm
don't pass some kind of bailout, let our economy tank out great depression style...
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 2:06pm
but this "bailout" is robbery!
and it won't even work.
cross your toes.......
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 4:28pm
man,
the u.s. is 70 trillion in debt!
the jobs are ALREADY gone.
next comes the credit card defaults, the car loans......
it is so frikkin' stupid and greedy.
whatever happened to the glorious work ethic?
i guess it was given to china as collateral.
the debt on bus goes round and round!
so fucking stupid.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 4:31pm
Posted by bleedingheart at 10/04/2008 @ 3:51pm
oh, blow it out your ass.
i'm too pissed to tolerate your bullshit.
go picket an abortion clinic or something.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 4:33pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 4:33pm
chill, we've been getting f****d for 8 years. what's one more sweetheart deal?
Posted by palehorse67 at 10/04/2008 @ 4:35pm
mccain = worstererererestestest
obama = worstererererestest
grrrr.
hedge against inflation -- stop eating!
credit! credit! credit!
how much debt do YOU have?
i hear people complain about this bailout,
yet they personally have thousands and thousands in debt.
THAT is hypocrisy.
grrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 4:36pm
the economy shuts down because there is no credit available.
what the fuck?
doesn't anybody live within their means?
grrrrrr.
HALF OF U.S. FEDERAL DEBT IS "OWNED" BY
THE
U.S.
GOVERNMENT!!!!!!
what does THAT MEAN?
and i gotta pay for this.
fire up the presses!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 4:38pm
ibbs,
you may think the quran is nuts,
but at least god got this part right:
[2.275] Those who swallow down usury cannot arise except as one whom Shaitan has prostrated by (his) touch does rise. That is because they say, trading is only like usury; and Allah has allowed trading and forbidden usury. To whomsoever then the admonition has come from his Lord, then he desists, he shall have what has already passed, and his affair is in the hands of Allah; and whoever returns (to it)-- these arc the inmates of the fire; they shall abide in it.
[2.276] Allah does not bless usury, and He causes charitable deeds to prosper, and Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner.
[2.278] O you who believe! Be careful of (your duty to) Allah and relinquish what remains (due) from usury, if you are believers.
[3.130] O you who believe! do not devour usury, making it double and redouble, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, that you may be successful.
[4.161] And their taking usury though indeed they were forbidden it and their devouring the property of people falsely, and We have prepared for the unbelievers from among them a painful chastisement.
[30.39] AND WHATEVER YOU LAY OUT AS USURY, SO THAT IT MAY INCREASE IN THE PROPERTY OF MEN, IT SHALL NOT INCREASE WITH ALLAH; AND WHATEVER YOU GIVE IN CHARITY, DESIRING ALLAH'S PLEASURE-- IT IS THESE (PERSONS) THAT SHALL GET MANIFOLD.
brother, can you spare a dime?
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 4:41pm
chill, we've been getting f****d for 8 years. what's one more sweetheart deal?
Posted by palehorse67 at 10/04/2008 @ 4:35pm
8 years??!?!?!?!?
wtf?
part of this mess started with carter.
part of this mess started in 1913
part of this mess started in 1944
part of this mess started in 1971.
and 200+ years of war, war, war, war ‘es el colmo!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 4:48pm
doesn't anybody live within their means?
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 4:38pm
are you kidding? shit this is america!
Posted by palehorse67 at 10/04/2008 @ 4:48pm
part of this mess started with carter.
part of this mess started in 1913
part of this mess started in 1944
part of this mess started in 1971.
and 200+ years of war, war, war, war ‘es el colmo!
i'm talking about corporations getting handouts and taxcuts and supposedly this is supposed to "trickle down". it's funny, the only time i talk about something "trickling down" is when i'm pissing on something.
Posted by palehorse67 at 10/04/2008 @ 4:51pm
you should also realize you made no change whatsoever and could have done the same thing sitting at home and never going to the voting booth.
Posted by palehorse67 at 10/04/2008 @ 4:25pm
and that is so, so, sad.
well, maybe i should give them more credit.
doh!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 4:54pm
i know what you're talking about.
but it isn't just the last eight years.
it's been a long, long time.
sure the last eight have been particularly nasty,
but it ain't nothing new.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 4:56pm
i don't know. i hate to get radical, but it's trying times like these that make one think that maybe karl marx was right, that the working class will get fed up with the bullshit and do something about it. with the level of apathy in the american political system today (though the obama campaign has sparked something), mr. marx's comments are nothing more than wishful thinking.
Posted by palehorse67 at 10/04/2008 @ 4:59pm
that the working class will get fed up with the bullshit and do something about it.
Posted by palehorse67 at 10/04/2008 @ 4:59pm
lions - bears, tomorrow at one!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 5:07pm
. ..We are down to a two party system -.- and neither party is listening to the people. Both parties approved the $700 Billion Dollar Bailout and now they are sitting on either side of the table deciding how to divide it up. . ..Taxtation Without representation was the cry for the first revolution. I don't know if its time for a second revolution with the first war cry or not, BUT it is time for people to write in the candidate whom they feel is the best for the country "regardless of party" & "regardless of whom the party selected" ..Vote For Whom You Really Feel Is The Best for The Country - The Hell With The Party - Just As they Said The Hell With You
Posted by bbednarz at 10/04/2008 @ 5:13pm
I can no longer bear to watch this debacle continue to unfold. My alienation is complete. The ink isn't dry on the bill authorizing the Great Treasury Raid of 0 and 8 yet and the cronies are already lining up at the trough. This country is run by a regime of shameless kleptocracy. That is my conclusion.
Posted by Zero at 10/04/2008 @ 12:33pm | ignore this person | warn this person
How about we rename this splendid piece of legislation 'The Congressional Bailout and Wall Street Full Employment Bill'?
Warren Buffet buying up shares of Goldman Sachs even before the bill was signed.....you know this was a done deal before the start.....just had to add the right amount of pork.
Posted by OneVote at 10/04/2008 @ 5:41pm
we are down to a one party system, Herr Bush and Herr Paulson, Frau Pelosi, and Herr Reed, Herr Obama, and Lord McCain all more than willing to do nothing for years and then scramble to find a "FIX" so the whole damm thing doesn't collapse. What is the difference between the 2 major parties, one likes war more than the other? You are in a facsist state if Herr Paulson can order you not to short stocks unless it pleases him. This is reverse robin hood, taking from the poor and giving to the rich.
Posted by jlenahan at 10/04/2008 @ 5:45pm
Posted by palehorse67 at 10/04/2008 @ 4:25pm
I've never voted for Ralph Nader before. However, this year he makes the most sense. If a sane foreign policy is your central issue, as it is for me, this is what it looks like:
1. McCain: Anything but sane foreign policy.
2. Obama: Almost as bad as McCain, except he'd rather be fighting in Afghanistan.
Add in his position on the bailout, contrasted with say Sanders or Feingold's position, and I think Obama might just qualify as different rather than the "lesser of two evils".
So, I'm left looking at third parties - all of which agree that U.S. foreign policy needs to change. Except:
3. McKinney: 9/11 Truther. I saw something the other day where she thinks the government executed people after Katrina. Basically, crazy land.
4. Barr: Former Republican drug warrior, man behind the Defense of Marriage Act, and now...Libertarian? I don't think so. Not someone I can vote for.
5. Baldwin: "...our goal [is to] restore American jurisprudence to its original Biblical common-law foundations." No thanks, Constitution Party.
Which leaves me with the only two sane choices, Ralph Nader or staying at home.
Since I like to let all parties know that I vote and since I care about more than just national races, I'll vote, and I'll vote Nader - and it has nothing to do with pompous this or that, principles or what have you. It's simply the logical choice given my concerns.
Posted by srjenkins at 10/04/2008 @ 5:48pm
srjenkins -How did Nader vote on the issues?How did he do as mayor,gov,or as a state or national representative?In other words,has he done anything,but talk?
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/04/2008 @ 6:17pm
Nader is just another all talk no action politician who promises progressives the world,but gives them nothing.Way back long ago Nader did some good,but that was way back then.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/04/2008 @ 6:20pm
brother, can you spare a dime?
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 4:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person
well...yes...
but without a bailout payrolls wont get made and pension funds are tanking...
i'm beyond being pissed off at this stuff. i've been predicting something like this for at least a decade and the mortgage mess is onlly the specific, immediate cause...
the big picture is an untenable need for the american consumer to ever increase his/her consumption while suffering ever decreasing real meadian cost of living adjusted income...
first the average schmuk stopped saving in order to consume more...then the average schmuk was extended absurd lines of credit long before the mortgage mess...
so the chinese make ever more crap that our schmuks buy...but our schmuks don't make more money to spend and the fat cats sure wont pay their schmuks more...they just extend them more easy credit, encourage them to keep spending like there's no tomorrow, and bitch when schmuk defaults on loans...
but all other factors held equal, even with new debtors reaching majority and entering the credit hamster wheel and old debtors dieing and falling off the wheel...
there still arrives that unavoidable moment where schmuko the consumer clown cannot continue to increase spending and cannot get anymore credit...
and so the mortgage crisis tees it all off...
but unlike 1929, we have the chance to almost immediately respond and attempt to mitigate the mess, and heaven willing we will have a solid keynsianesque economic policy prez to lead us back to normalcy and sustainable economic soon.
this reckoning was inexorable, considering the economic policies and trends of the last 30+ years. like it or not i think this bailout was needed.
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 6:33pm
like it or not i think this bailout was needed.
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 6:33pm
not THIS bailout.
it's something akin to fighting terrorism by invading countries.....
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 6:48pm
hey ibbs,
check this out:
The problem has been masked for years as middle- and lower-income Americans found ways to live beyond their paychecks. But now they have run out of ways.
The first way was to send more women into paid work. Most women streamed into the work force in the 1970s less because new professional opportunities opened up to them than because they had to prop up family incomes. The percentage of American working mothers with school-age children has almost doubled since 1970 -- to more than 70 percent. But there's a limit to how many mothers can maintain paying jobs.
So Americans turned to a second way of spending beyond their hourly wages. They worked more hours. The typical American now works more each year than he or she did three decades ago. Americans became veritable workaholics, putting in 350 more hours a year than the average European, more even than the notoriously industrious Japanese.
But there's also a limit to how many hours Americans can put into work, so Americans turned to a third way of spending beyond their wages. They began to borrow. With housing prices rising briskly through the 1990s and even faster from 2002 to 2006, they turned their homes into piggy banks by refinancing home mortgages and taking out home-equity loans. But this third strategy also had a built-in limit. With the bursting of the housing bubble, the piggy banks are closing.
The binge seems to be over. We're finally reaping the whirlwind of widening inequality and ever more concentrated wealth.
The only way to keep the economy going over the long run is to increase the wages of the bottom two-thirds of Americans. The answer is not to protect jobs through trade protection. That would only drive up the prices of everything purchased from abroad.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 6:52pm
http://www.nytimes.co
m/2008/02/13/opinion/13reich.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 6:53pm
even hiding inflation under the chinese carpet isn't working anymore.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 6:53pm
"An open, competitive and liberalized financial market can effectively allocate scarce resources in a manner that promotes stability and prosperity far better than government intervention,"
Mr. Paulson told an auditorium full of officials in Shanghai in March, 2007.
Henry P. Coyote, Genius........
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 7:01pm
"There is a real element of anger and frustration around the planet that this is a U.S.-originated problem with global repercussions," John Manley, a finance and foreign affairs minister under former prime minister Jean Chrιtien, said in an interview. "The world will be looking for a loss of hubris from the United States as a result of this."
PALIN/OTHER GUY '08
Shining Hill, By Golly!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 7:05pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 6:52pm | ignore this person | warn this person
oh, thanks!
women entering the workforce - i was forgetting that - yes indeed, another factor.
but i think this bailout, as imperfect as it is, might be the chewed up wad of bubblegum we need to hold back the water until competant, decent, solid leadership can take over and effect real repairs to the system.
inexorable...
i also wanted us to go invade afghanistan with enough force and resources to capture and/or kill bin laden, destroy the taliban who was harboring him, and finance a mini-martial plan to develop that hellhole and get out while they still liked us...
in this, obama and i see eye to eye.
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 7:23pm
mini-marshall plan...man - dyslexia brainfarting day!
got family visiting - maybe thats it...
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 7:25pm
"The US, through USAID and the University of Nebraska, spends millions of dollars developing and printing textbooks for Afghan schoolchildren. The textbooks are filled with violent images and militant Islamic teachings, part of covert attempts to spur resistance to the Soviet occupation. For instance, children are taught to count with illustrations showing tanks, missiles, and land mines. Lacking any alternative, millions of these textbooks are used long after 1994; the Taliban are still using them in 2001."
"University of Nebraska academic named Thomas Gouttierre leads the textbook program. Journalist Robert Dreyfuss will later reveal that although funding for Gouttierre's work went through USAID, it was actually paid for by the CIA. Unocal will pay Gouttierre to work with the Taliban (see December 1997) and he will host visits of Taliban leaders to the US, including trips in 1997 and 1999 (see December 4, 1997 and July-August 1999)"
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 8:00pm
"The Associated Press will later report that the Enron corporation bribes Taliban officials as part of a "no-holds-barred bid to strike a deal for an energy pipeline in Afghanistan." Atul Davda, a senior director for Enron's International Division, will later claim, "Enron had intimate contact with Taliban officials." Presumably this effort began around 1996, when a power plant Enron was building in India ran into trouble and Enron began an attempt to supply it with natural gas via a planned pipeline through Afghanistan (see 1995-November 2001 and June 24, 1996). In 1997, Enron executives privately meet with Taliban officials in Texas (see December 4, 1997). They are "given the red-carpet treatment and promised a fortune if the deal [goes] through." It is alleged Enron secretly employs CIA agents to carry out its dealings overseas. According to a CIA source, "Enron proposed to pay the Taliban large sums of money in a tax' on every cubic foot of gas and oil shipped through a pipeline they planned to build." This source claims Enron paid more than $400 million for a feasibility study on the pipeline and "a large portion of that cost was pay-offs to the Taliban." Enron continues to encourage the Taliban about the pipeline even after Unocal officially gives up on the pipeline in the wake of the African embassy bombings (see December 5, 1998). An investigation after Enron's collapse in 2001 (see December 2, 2001) will determine that some of this pay-off money ended up funding al-Qaeda."
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 8:01pm
" Taliban representatives in Texas, 1997. [Source: Lions Gate Films] Representatives of the Taliban are invited guests to the Texas headquarters of Unocal to negotiate their support for the pipeline. Future President George W. Bush is Governor of Texas at the time. The Taliban appear to agree to a $2 billion pipeline deal, but will do the deal only if the US officially recognizes the Taliban regime. The Taliban meet with US officials. According to the Daily Telegraph, "the US government, which in the past has branded the Taliban's policies against women and children despicable,' appears anxious to please the fundamentalists to clinch the lucrative pipeline contract." A BBC regional correspondent says that "the proposal to build a pipeline across Afghanistan is part of an international scramble to profit from developing the rich energy resources of the Caspian Sea."
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 8:02pm
like i said,
this bailout is like trying to end terrorism by invading countries.....
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 8:04pm
its all quite similar to what happened leading up to 1929, adjusted for specifics and scale.
no rocket science to see it for what it is.
its the "making it appear to be something other than what it is" that takes rocket science and advanced degrees in finance, economics and business.
thats the trick, to twist all data, evidence, and common sense intuitive observation to fit into a self serving, excuse making, ideological framework which so perfectly distorts ugly reality into pretty reality...
and as year followed year and median income decline was offset by women entering the workforce, cessation of saving on the part of the consumer, extension and acceptance of absurd lines of credit, and an increasingly materialistic culture of pointless consumption...
very smart people have labored to explain away the obvious (that a day of reckoning was inexorable), hiding the truth (to themselves as well as the rest of us) behind trick financing, clever ideology presented as fact, and a magic chest full of smoke and mirrors doubletalk and numbers arranged to lie.
well its over. time for the dems to come clean up this all to familiar (to the student of history) mess...
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 8:13pm
save some money,
stop making people so angry.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 8:13pm
like i said,
this bailout is like trying to end terrorism by invading countries.....
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 8:04pm | ignore this person | warn this person
if we had stuck to afghanistan from the gitgo...and devoted the resources needed...and not dived headfirst into the stupid suckhole of baghdad...
i think it would have gone almost swimmingly. the world liked us after 9/11. it was actually a golden opportunity...that the mushmouth's handlers blew and blew bad.
i have absolutely no problem with invading countries who harbor REAL enemies and are therefore are real enemies themselves, or at least their govs...
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 8:20pm
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/04/2008 @ 6:17pm
I must admit, questions like:
1. How did X vote on the issues?
2. How did s/he do as mayor, gov, or as a state or national representative?
These aren't questions that interest me. I'm more interested in what they say they believe, whether I think what they are saying is good, and whether I think they mean it.
If we were to use the method you suggest, then we are always going to be limited to status quo candidates.
For example, let's assume you had a libertarian bent, who'd you vote for if you had to chose between Ron Paul, Mike Gravel and say a political novice like Mary Ruwart? I don't know about you - but Mary seems like the sanest choice of the three.
Now, vary the game. What about Mary Ruwart, Mike Huckabee, Hillary Clinton? What about Jeb Bush, Bill Richardson, and Mary Ruwart? Etc. I can think of many three-ten person sets where the record of those that get selected by your criteria - and I think this is how most major party candidates are selected, and it is part of the problem - make me want to look elsewhere.
Posted by srjenkins at 10/04/2008 @ 8:40pm
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 8:13pm
It's theft. Plain and simple. The government is taking our tax dollars and putting it in the hands of people that have clearly demonstrated they don't know what they are doing. That's not bubble gum, that's stupid.
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 8:20pm
<i>i have absolutely no problem with invading countries who harbor REAL enemies and are therefore are real enemies themselves, or at least their govs...</i>
Then you are no different than the Bush advisors you don't like. A war of aggression is a war of aggression - any way you slice it.
Posted by srjenkins at 10/04/2008 @ 8:45pm
i have absolutely no problem with invading countries who harbor REAL enemies and are therefore are real enemies themselves, or at least their govs...
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 8:20pm
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/01/0081346
Afghanistan: where Obama's legacy went to die.
Posted by FcukReagan at 10/04/2008 @ 9:08pm
srjenkins-I'm far more interested in what people do than what they say and that particularly pertains to politicians.I learned many years ago how little talk means.It's easy for Nader to talk since he has never had to do and talk is,as always,cheap.If you harbor enemies that attack me,like Afganistan and Pakistan, then attacking you is not a war of aggression,but a defensive war.Iraq did not attack us or ours so that is a war of aggression.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/04/2008 @ 9:15pm
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/04/2008 @ 9:15pm
"I'm far more interested in what people do than what they say and that particularly pertains to politicians.I learned many years ago how little talk means."
That's where believability comes in. The bottom line is that there are precious few politicians that have a record I have any respect for - Sanders, Feinstein, Kucinich - so it is rare to get beyond talk. Obama is an excellent example of the problem.
"If you harbor enemies that attack me,like Afganistan and Pakistan, then attacking you is not a war of aggression,but a defensive war."
Under international law, it's aggression - whether you recognize it or not.
Posted by srjenkins at 10/04/2008 @ 9:22pm
srjenkins-I could care less if it's considered to be a war of aggression under international law.I prefer reality to legal speak.NATO is involved and the international community does not seem upset by us getting rid of the taliban or going after AQ and views it as a direct response to 9/11, which it is..If you don't want attacked then kick the people responsible out of your country.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/04/2008 @ 9:45pm
I think ultimately this bailout will do middle-class and poor Americans a favor.
Already we are recognizing that vast parts of this military/corporate complex we call our government are primarily interested in sucking our lifeblood. Period. They are immoral athiests(my apologies to the moral athiests) who are planning on taking everything they can in this life because for them there is no reckoning to come.
Where it benefits us is that we are withdrawing from their twisted, greedy universe. I see it every day. People talk about buying property, opening savings accounts, planting gardens and unloading their once prized stuff. People are talking about achieving energy independence on their own. There is talk of pulling back and relying on our own resources, though the financial "giants" have left us precious few.
I know the wingers are the ones who scream "class warfare" or "socialism" every time anyone says the words fair or equitable regarding the common folk. However, watching Harry Reid and Mitch McConnell spout the same self-congratulatory BS made me realize that if real class warfare broke out there would be more than a few privileged Democrats watching their estates burn on the way to the guillotine.
If that doesn't make them nervous it should.
Posted by Pogge at 10/04/2008 @ 9:52pm
Posted by srjenkins at 10/04/2008 @ 8:45pm | ignore this person | warn this person
yes i am different.
the bushies responded to a ghastly attack from THESE guys by concentrating on THOSE guys.
i would have never attacked iraq. i would indeed have concentrated our power in afghanistan, crushed our enemies mercilessly, and made an honest effort to help the people of afghanistan recover from their horrible government and the horrible results of their horrible government's actions.
i have zero problem with the invasion of afghanistan other than the fact that it was muffed and doomed as a result of the black suckhole of baghdad.
the world was with us, nato was and is involved, and i believe afghanistan is a just and justifiable war.
ok, to be fair, i AM indeed evil, so i have no problem with the idea of crushing those who would crush me and certainly no peoblem with crushing those who TRIED to crush me.
but those stupid incompetant evil bastards of the bush administration crushed the wrong guys and allowed the real enemies to escape!
i hope there is still an opportunity to crush bin laden and his guys, because i truly believe they are every bit as bad as that idiot neocon, horowitz, says...
though it may be too late and if so perhaps we should cut our losses and bide our time, looking out for our own welfare.
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 9:54pm
Posted by srjenkins at 10/04/2008 @ 8:45pm | ignore this person | warn this person
theft? no...
an attempt to prevent a lot of pain for everyone.
will it work? i hope so.
if not...not good, though at least it should usher in good government and a second new deal to fix all the fuckups from the last three decades...
we shall see...
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 10:03pm
Posted by Pogge at 10/04/2008 @ 9:52pm | ignore this person | warn this person
well, with a new administration pushing responsible government, it may be the first stumbling step toward a better system eventually.
funny how excess in one extreme eventually destroys itself, laying the foundation for excess in another, opposing extreme...
ah, bipolar sequential balance, hallmark of a somewhat functional bipolar democracy!
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 10:08pm
Posted by JakobFabian at 10/04/2008 @ 10:56am | ignore this person | warn this person
yup...
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 10:21pm
But which administration Dex?
My greatest fear,pre-Palin anyway, was that John McCain didn't really have the energy or intellect to meet global challenges. A lot of this is the result of discussions with my parents who are the same age. They admit that as they have aged they are less and less INTERESTED in being on the cutting edge of anything. I like Obama because he is curious and intelligent, kind of like those precocious founding fathers, though all indications are that Obama has far superior family values. :)
However, I did figure we could muddle through with McCain for four years if a Dem congress could keep him from nuking anybody, but Palin, Holy Mother of God, the woman is just skin with a lot of bubbly air inside.
I read a post that claimed Cindy McCain looked sour when John and Sarah shared a stage because she was jealous. I think she, particularly being trained as a teacher, is just as horrified as every other intelligent woman I know that her husband put this cutesy, folksy shallow shark a heartbeat away from the presidency.
Posted by Pogge at 10/04/2008 @ 10:25pm
Posted by Pogge at 10/04/2008 @ 10:25pm | ignore this person | warn this person
yeah...i have not yet begun to celebrate, but i think mrs. mooseburger was the nail in the mccain coffin.
they just cant disguise her unfitness to be prez...and with mccain's age and all...
i think picking her won obama an election.
and as for obama...i believe he is as sincere as any pol can be and be elected prez. i have confidence he will do what has to be done whatever it is called, ideologically. if i'm wrong, i'm wrong, but i'm usually right...;)
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 10:34pm
Well, I'm going to sleep hoping you are right as rain. Buenos Noches.
Posted by Pogge at 10/04/2008 @ 10:42pm
for years the satano-aynrando right crowed about how awesome our system was compared to those stupid europeans and their womanly socialism!
and the satano-aynrandos had some nice numbers to back up their quacking. the europeans experienced slower growth than we.
but it all turns out that the slower growth was in fact sustainable and our absurd growth was not...so who's stupid now?
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 10:42pm
Posted by Pogge at 10/04/2008 @ 10:42pm | ignore this person | warn this person
me too soon.
buenas noches y mejores mananas...
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 10:44pm
Obama should appoint Nader Sec. of Commerce or the Treasury, maybe even work out a deal with Ralph now to say he's going to. Let the two campaign together. Nader's been an American hero when he's not running for president, has a 100% pro-consumer (= 95% of us) perspective, has worked hard for decades and accomplished MUCH.
Posted by Jan Kees at 10/04/2008 @ 11:03pm
Obama should appoint Nader Sec. of Commerce or the Treasury, maybe even work out a deal with Ralph now to say he's going to. Let the two campaign together. Nader's been an American hero when he's not running for president, has a 100% pro-consumer (= 95% of us) perspective, has worked hard for decades and accomplished MUCH.
Posted by Jan Kees at 10/04/2008 @ 11:04pm
Afghanistan: where Obama's legacy went to die.
Posted by FcukReagan at 10/04/2008 @ 9:08pm | ignore this person | warn this person
nah...
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 11:08pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/opinion/05rich.html?hp
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 11:24pm
Brother can you spare a couple billion!
The only way to keep the economy going over the long run is to increase the wages of the bottom two-thirds of Americans. Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 6:52pm
That is the best single idea I have heard in this post. Increasing the minimum wage to $15.00 an hour would help the economy in a big way. Trickle-up economics is the only way out of this mess.
What people fail to understand is that economic change always comes from the bottom up. Also anyone who wants to import goods into the U.S. should be charged a tariff. A stiff tariff if they are former American companies who have shipped our jobs overseas. That way the exploitation of cheap labor would do them no damn good.
How quickly then would manufacturing jobs stream back to us? After all we are willing to work harder than anyone else right? Sure there would be some pissed off fascists. So what? It would take a bit of time before we would see positive results and we might have to pay higher prices for awhiile. But we will be making more money to offset that.
In the meantime the government will have to be the employer. Hell, we need infrastructure and there is lots of work to do. We could do an Apollo program on alternative energy programs, and take the lead in that arena. Lots of jobs there to.
All is not lost if we have the right leadership. But that is the gazillion dollar question. "Right Leadership."
Posted by chaoszen at 10/04/2008 @ 11:59pm
oh, blow it out your ass. i'm too pissed to tolerate your bullshit. go picket an abortion clinic or something. Posted by frosty zoom at 10/04/2008 @ 4:33pm
wow.
excuse me.
guess i was grumpy.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:02am
if we had stuck to afghanistan from the gitgo...
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 8:20pm
perhaps.
(it's seldom worked there before. and it doesn't usually last long.)
but that point is moot.
prevention is always cheaper than cure.
but that point is moot, too.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:06am
The SUN'Ll come out
TomorROW
Bet your BOTTOM DOLLar
ThaT TOmorrow
There'll be SUN ! ! ! ! !
Just thinkin' about
tOMORrow
Clears awayaway the cobwebs,
And thE SORROw
''''Til there's none!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:08am
sarah palin - almost as mushmouthed as king mushmouth...
palin, quacking happily in colorado, said this...
"We see America as the greatest force for good in this world. If we can be that beacon of light and hope for others who seek freedom and democracy and can live in a country that would allow intolerance in the equal rights that again our military men and women fight for and die for all of us."
ok...lets see here...
We see America as the greatest force for good in this world."
so far so good. complete sentence...subject and verb with properly placed direct object...solid...
but then there's this gem...
"If we can be that beacon of light and hope for others who seek freedom and democracy"...
still solid...but then there's this...
"and can live in a country that would allow intolerance in the equal rights that again our military men and women fight for and die for all of us."
what???? whats that supposed to mean? wow...is this what miss south carolina sounds like when she's all growed up and barracudaized???
later, attempting to attack obama by association to former radical and now education professor bill ayers, she made sure to note that not only does she read the new york times (that would have been a newspaper she could have quoted to katie couric...but not if she only started "reading" it after the couric debacle when handlers started shoving newspapers in her face and telling her which parts of them to read and quack about) but she gives that liberal bastion quite a compliment...
Posted by dexter666 at 10/05/2008 @ 12:09am
Brother can you spare a couple billion!
Posted by chaoszen at 10/04/2008 @ 11:59pm
if you let me leverage your TED spread......
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:10am
"Well, I was reading my copy of today's New York Times and I was interested to read about Barack's friends from Chicago," Ms. Palin said at the fund-raiser in Englewood, Colo. "Turns out one of Barack's earliest supporters is a man who, according to The New York Times, and they are hardly ever wrong, was a domestic terrorist and part of a group that, quote, launched a campaign of bombings that would target the Pentagon and U.S. Capitol. Wow. These are the same guys who think patriotism is paying higher taxes."
WOW INDEED! crazy what ya learn once ya start readin them fancy shmansy newspapers!!!
really mrs mosseburger?
Posted by dexter666 at 10/05/2008 @ 12:11am
This from Alexander Cockburn on Stephin-Fetchit today:
"I never heard anyone speculate that Obama might, against all the odds, rally to the “No to Bailout” cause. His Yes was pure. He told reporters in Clearwater, Florida last Wednesday that "issues like bankruptcy reform, which are very important to Democrats, is probably something that we shouldn't try to do in this piece of legislation." In addition, he said that his own proposed economic stimulus program "is not necessarily something that we should have in this package.
"In the crunch, almost invariably, Obama does the wrong thing and in my opinion he always will. Just count out the moments of surrender: reauthorize the Patriot Act? Aye, from Obama. The “class action fairness act”, sought by Big Business for years. Aye from Obama. Capping credit card interest rates? No-o-o from Obama. FISA? Aye from Obama. With Robert Rubin at his side, his bailout vote was as sure as that of the harlot of the credit card companies, the six-term senator from Delaware, Joe Biden."
Progressives, vote Nader!
Posted by john lowell at 10/05/2008 @ 12:15am
Increasing the minimum wage to $15.00 an hour would help the economy in a big way.
Posted by chaoszen at 10/04/2008 @ 11:59pm
let me adjust that a touch.
"The only way to keep the economy going over the long run is to increase the wages of the bottom two-thirds of Humans."
equilibrium must be sought.
or librium, maybe
that, and retie money (aka "consumption") to the earth.
oh, and educate educate ecudate.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:15am
"Some of his comments that he has made about the war that I think may -- in my world disqualifies someone from consideration as the next commander in chief."
ooooooh! nice one mrs mooseburger...
some of his comments that he has made (as opposed to those comments he has not made) about the war that i think may - in my world - disqualifies someone from consideration...
WHAT? what the hell is that supposed to mean?
Posted by dexter666 at 10/05/2008 @ 12:24am
and take the lead in that arena.
better hurry.
Lots of jobs there to.
and none to soon.
All is not lost if we have the right leadership.
every watch pigeons in flight?
But that is the gazillion dollar question.
i live in the past of the future.
"Right Leadership."
sshhh.... don't give them any ideas.
Posted by chaoszen
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:36am
How quickly then would manufacturing jobs stream back to us?
i don't particularly want them back. we need to do cooler things and live more humbly. generosity is a virtue, i've been told. let other people enjoy a more hospitable live while we turn off a few appliances...
After all we are willing to work harder than anyone else right?
good point.
Sure there would be some pissed off fascists.
convince them that there better ways to make their children safe.
So what?
MILES!
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=TR5b0Eryr1U&fmt=18
COLTRANE!
(and the rest....)
It would take a bit of time before we would see positive results and we might have to pay higher prices for awhiile.
that you would. i'd rather pay more for the products made overseas. and have fewer. equilibrialize. give them a semblance of the "wages" and environmental standards that you feel are deserved by your neighbours.
of course, being able to do this means finding a sensible way of powering transportation.
it seems shipping costs (there's that nasty inflation again) may tamper down the trade-a-whirl)
http://www.redondo.com/rff/tiltawhirl.jpg
But we will be making more money to offset that.
no, make less.
In the meantime the government will have to be the employer.
hmmm.
Hell, we need infrastructure and there is lots of work to do.
smaller vehicles would be an excellent start. they wear down the stuff more slowly.
We could do an Apollo program on alternative energy programs,
MOON POWER!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:36am
ALSO ANYONE WHO WANTS TO IMPORT GOODS INTO THE U.S. SHOULD BE CHARGED A TARIFF.
no. one should not do business with "unscrupulous individuals". set the example. efficiency has it's advantages
A stiff tariff if they are former American companies who have shipped our jobs overseas.
ah, vengence. tempting, but ineffective at this point. create better jobs. and don't do business with "unscrupulous individuals".
the reason for job loss is not wages and environmental standards here, the reason is inflation. if things were really priced at the earth's capacity to yield them, "omnieuropean" consumption would be slowed considerably.
so, to keep the profit margin above that of inflation, production has been shipped elsewhere to be swept under a madeinchina mat. unfortunately this has many disadvantages.
THAT WAY THE EXPLOITATION OF CHEAP LABOR WOULD DO THEM NO DAMN GOOD.
ah, but it does you good. read the labels. don't do business with "unscrupulous individuals".
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:36am
"The only way to keep the economy going over the long run is to increase the wages of the bottom two-thirds of Humans." Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:15am
Frosty, thats where tough Tariffs come in. Call me crazy, but if the largest consumers on the face of the Earth inact strong trade legislation that eliminates the greedy desire to exploit cheap labor, what happens?
In order to stay in business those countries that have cheap labor will inevitably have to raise the wages of their workers in order to enable their own workers to buy the products they produce.
Not that complex. And it puts a big fat stick up the ass of the uber rich.
Posted by chaoszen at 10/05/2008 @ 12:45am
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/opinion/05rich.html?hp
while, it does keep my glass half full to see the demise,
i feel gloating is a dangerous thing.
even if it's true.
something's fishy. why'd he take the weekend off?
it's raining in sedona:
http://www.wunderground.com/radar/radblast.asp?
ID=FSX®ion=c2&lat=34.84084320&lon=-
111.79756165&label=Sedona%2c%20AZ
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:46am
The McDonald's in Sedona, Arizona is the only one in the world with turquoise arches. They are not yellow because the city thought they would mesh poorly with the surrounding red rocks. The first color McDonalds offered was turquoise which the city accepted.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:46am
Unfortunately it also puts a big fat stick up the ass of Mother Earth and the raping of her precious resources. But that is another story...
Posted by chaoszen at 10/05/2008 @ 12:50am
use less.
it's easy.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:55am
Not that complex.
Posted by chaoszen at 10/05/2008 @ 12:45am
welcome mats are nicer than walls.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:57am
just don't offer your "money" to nasty people.
fix myself first.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:58am
or whatever that means....
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:58am
The first color McDonalds offered was turquoise which the city accepted.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 12:46am
The city of Sedona should have told McPoison to take their business elsewhere.
The food in Sedona was just fine without them. I have been there quite a few times and the last thing I would have thought of is. "Where the Hell is McDonalds?"
Posted by chaoszen at 10/05/2008 @ 12:58am
that is because it is omnipresent.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 01:01am
that is because it is omnipresent.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 01:01am
well, i guess it is.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 01:02am
The first thing I would think when visiting Sedona would be, "Allright,who's got the Peyote."
Posted by chaoszen at 10/05/2008 @ 01:04am
Posted by dexter666 at 10/05/2008 @ 12:11am
egad!
she's started reading!
pull the lever; shut down the tubes!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 01:04am
i believe he is as sincere as any pol can be and be elected prez.
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 10:34pm
me, too.
cross your toes.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 01:07am
doesn't going to mcdonald's produce the same effect?
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 01:10am
It's just a day trip from Sedona to Canyonlands National Park. Spend about two weeks in a tent there and you get a whole other perspective on the Universe.
But I digress..
Posted by chaoszen at 10/05/2008 @ 01:13am
It's all distraction to cover the fact that the GOP ticket has nothing to offer us re ideas or visions.
Posted by mimsky at 10/04/2008 @ 10:39pm
chaoszen says there's peyote in sedona.
maybe that's why mr. mccain took the weekend off.
he's discussing a new "visionary strategy" with his "advisors".
could be....
might work..
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 01:13am
DON JUAN/DATURA '08
A Vision For America!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 01:15am
don't worry h.s.,
i stick to chammomile tea...
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 01:16am
Spend about two weeks in a tent there and you get a whole other perspective on the Universe.
But I digress..
Posted by chaoszen at 10/05/2008 @ 01:13am
perhaps not.
perhaps that is the issue at hand.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 01:17am
oh, no.
BAILOUT BELOW!
BATTEN DOWN THE HUTCHES!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 01:20am
THE NADIR OF THE BAILOUT,
THE BAIL OF OUT AND OUT,
THE OUT OF BAIL AND OUT ON BAIL,
THE BALEFUL OF BAILOUT,
THE BALEFUL BAILOUT,
THE NADIR OF THE BAILOUT.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 01:25am
Oct. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Citigroup Inc. said a New York state court judge granted an order extending the bank's ``exclusivity agreement'' with Wachovia Corp., after Wells Fargo & Co. announced a competing bid for the North Carolina lender Friday.
no comment.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 01:27am
Garry Marr And Danielle Wong, National Post
Published: Saturday, October 04, 2008
It took 12 years, but the housing boom in Toronto is finally over.
For the first since 1996, prices in the city have begun to fall. Houses are now sitting on the market longer and less of them are selling, in a trend that appears to be picking up steam.
<<<>>>
FEWER!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 01:30am
Canyonlands, Utah
I will be there in about 3 weeks. Tucked amongst the sedimentary multicolored sandstones. In an RV that looks completely out of place. With a jutesack of Peyote, Spring Water and 4 cases of MRE'S.
Posted by chaoszen at 10/05/2008 @ 01:34am
I need a break..
Posted by chaoszen at 10/05/2008 @ 01:35am
Master of Religious Education (MRE)
yup.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 01:58am
What Caused the Financial Crisis? An article in the NY Times, "Pressured to Take on Risk, Fannie Hit a Tipping Point," is causing many people to wonder if Fannie and Freddie caused the financial crisis.
First, let me clarify the question......
http://economistsview.typepad.com/economists
view/2008/10/what-caused-the.html
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 02:13am
KRAUTHAMMER CONCEDES!!!!!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content
/article/2008/10/02/AR2008100203043.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 02:39am
Crisis, what Crisis?
Supertramp.
Posted by chaoszen at 10/05/2008 @ 02:40am
HA!
Musicians Use Both Sides Of Their Brains More Frequently Than Average People
ScienceDaily (Oct. 3, 2008) --
Supporting what many of us who are not musically talented have often felt, new research reveals that trained musicians really do think differently than the rest of us. Vanderbilt University psychologists have found that professionally trained musicians more effectively use a creative technique called divergent thinking, and also use both the left and the right sides of their frontal cortex more heavily than the average person.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 02:49am
Im a left handed guitar player. And my right wrist has carpal tunnel. So I strum alot. God has a twisted sense of humor..
Posted by chaoszen at 10/05/2008 @ 03:11am
The carpal tunnel started directly after I bought a Gibson SG for $1000 dollars. I'm still trying to figure out what that means exactly, in a spiritual sense.
Posted by chaoszen at 10/05/2008 @ 03:17am
LONDON -- The senior British commander in Afghanistan says that a decisive military victory there is impossible and the Taliban may well be part of a long-term solution for the country.
The Sunday Times newspaper quotes Brig.-Gen. Mark Carleton-Smith as saying that the alliance is not going to win the war.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 03:27am
i'm both handed.
god gave me two, after all.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 03:29am
the Taliban may well be part of a long-term solution for the country. Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 03:27am
I spent some of my lifetime in Herat, Kandahar, Kabul and Mazar-e-Sharif. There was no mention of any Taliban then. Although it did seem that there was a certain amount of Pashtun extremism.
The women were like black ghosts in their full body garmets, looking through a mesh where eyes should be. Occasionally the wind would lift and/or outline the bodies underneath. Quite exotic.
The men were all sex-starved and almost blatantly homosexual. You see a man cannot marry until his family can pay a dowry. And poverty is endemic.
I was unfortunate enough to be travelling with an Irish girl and felt honor bound to protect her from the horny masses. The Aghani men would laugh at me for protecting what they deemed an uncovered whore. That led to some rather awkward situations.
Oh well..
Posted by chaoszen at 10/05/2008 @ 03:58am
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/04/2008 @ 9:45pm
It is attitudes like yours that gives people like Bush the power to hijack our government and do what they want with it. So, next time you talk about the problem of two party government, recognize you are part of the problem.
Posted by dexter666 at 10/04/2008 @ 9:54pm @ 10:03pm
"i have zero problem with the invasion of afghanistan...i have no problem with the idea of crushing those who would crush me and certainly no peoblem with crushing those who TRIED to crush me."
Or apparently anyone that might perhaps be in the way. bin Laden isn't the Taliban. And to draw the line and say Iraq is out of bounds but Afghanistan and Pakistan are in because...oh, I feel justified about it, isn't any different than deciding that Iraq, Iran, Lebanan or wherever else you feel like going and can feel justified about. I'm sure LVL will tell you we are quite justified to go into all those places too. Same moral problem that extends left to right.
You're just as much a part of the problem as Bush. Point blank. And this kind of militarism makes Bush possible.
Posted by srjenkins at 10/05/2008 @ 10:48am
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All defendants, except for Happ, were initially indicted in May, 2006. United States District Judge Algenon L. Marbley will preside over the case which is scheduled for trial on November 5, 2007. All defendants except for James K Happ? Who is James K Happ really is.......
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Posted by sasha2008 at 10/05/2008 @ 11:44am
srjenkins-You were unable to show that attacking a country that harbors people who attacked us is the same thing as attacking a country that had nothing to do with any attacks on us.Trying to claim that that makes us the same as Bush was pathetic.You are just as self righteous as luvvy,however.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/05/2008 @ 11:55am
srjenkins-Lets put this on a personal level.If someone murders your family and then hides in someones house that knows that this person murdered your family,but doesn't care and is still willing to hide the person are you saying that the police should not storm the house to get the person who murdered your family just because the person hiding them was not personally involved?
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/05/2008 @ 12:42pm
"They are immoral athiests(my apologies to the moral athiests) who are planning on taking everything they can in this life because for them there is no reckoning to come."
Posted by Pogge at 10/04/2008 @ 9:52pm
While I appreciate the 'apologies', I take exception to your point of view here.
Whether they actually are religious whack jobs, (which by the way, is what they all claim), or they are just using the blindness created in a great many citizens by their adherence to ancient fairy tales and the anti-intellectualism that breeds (read; fact-free)...the effect is the same.
Anyone who can recite bible verses, but not the bill of rights, is easily manipulated, especially when you can play on the fear that disagreement with their views is somehow evil, or lacking in ethical clarity.
Religion twists minds, celebrates ignorance and causes wars. Let's at least attempt to keep it out of politics.
Eric
Posted by Malcontent at 10/05/2008 @ 1:44pm
The men were all sex-starved and almost blatantly homosexual.
Posted by chaoszen at 10/05/2008 @ 03:58am
ever watch IFL?
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 1:48pm
srjenkins-Lets put this on a personal level.If someone murders your family and then hides in someones house that knows that this person murdered your family,but doesn't care and is still willing to hide the person are you saying that the police should not storm the house to get the person who murdered your family just because the person hiding them was not personally involved?
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/05/2008 @ 12:42pm
the key is to avoid the kind of situation where someone wants to kill you.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 1:51pm
i mean "al-qaeda" doesn't seem to worried about iceland....
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/05/2008 @ 1:56pm
FZ-There will always be those who want to kill.Try a little reality for a change of pace.AQ seems to care about everywhere and have killed on every continent expect Antarctica.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/05/2008 @ 1:59pm
FZ-Are you saying that crime victims are responsible for what happens to them and not the criminal?
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/05/2008 @ 2:00pm
Regarding the area around Sedona. Lived in the town of Jerome as a kid in the last couple years of United Verde's underground copper operation. Sedona at the time was viewed as "elitist" by most of the mining folk. It sure as hell is now. However it remains user friendly & its beauty can't be denied. After all, I'm a liberal.
Posted by Sorelish at 10/05/2008 @ 2:35pm
Here's Dave Lindorff on Stephin-Fetchit and the Democrats:
"The lesson is clear. No grassroots rebellion that focuses on Congress as its battleground, or that counts Republican or Democratic elected officials as its troops, will go anywhere. The government party will hew to the people with the money.
"A wiser course of action would be the wholesale rejection this Election Day of all incumbents who voted for the bailout bill in both House and Senate. Do that once, and watch how much better Congress responds to citizen pressure the next time around."
Still want to vote Obama when Nader is availble, progressives?
Posted by john lowell at 10/05/2008 @ 4:57pm
Posted by srjenkins at 10/04/2008 @ 5:48pm
allow me to clarify my points. first, i'm sure nader has many redeemable policies, but unless you get the necessary votes, those policies mean absolutely nil. so he can say all he wants, because at the end of the day, the guy has no chance in hell of getting elected.
my second point would be that i don't believe the guy has the necessary judgment for the job. i'm sure you'll refer to his policies, but that's not what i'm talking about. people (the media, the public, myself for that matter) are criticizing mccain on picking palin, a neophyte to washington/global politics. nader one-ups mccain on the inexperience ticket and picks matt gonzales, who served on the board of supervisors for san francisco, ran for mayor of san francisco and lost.
my third and last point would be that this country, in the state it is now, is not ready for the nader/gonzales ticket. we cannot go from that far right to that far left overnight.
sorry for the pessimism/cynicism, i await your rebuttal.
Posted by palehorse67 at 10/05/2008 @ 5:44pm
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/05/2008 @ 11:55am
The point is that this whole "country who harbors" argument basically leaves the door wide open to attack any country you want. The President asserts he has "good intelligence" that al-Qaeda is in Iran, Palestine, various countries in Africa, etc., and there is no end to your "just war", and when we frame it this way, we see just how little justification there is for it. And the argument isn't any different than the Bush Doctrine. In fact, it enables it.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/05/2008 @ 12:42pm
I've seen this argument before as well. It would be more analogous to argue that once my family gets killed, I am justified in attacking the house myself.
And even if we give your argument the most charitable reading and pretend the police argument is legitimate, what if the house was occupied by the elderly and children? What if the house was a heavily armed gang controlled house? What if invading the house would be used as an excuse by local residents to riot? What if we didn't know exactly which house - and had to enter a hundred to find him?
Your framing dictates the right answer. Change the framing, and we see that the answer is a lot more complex and a lot less obvious. It also precludes other options like putting an APB out on the suspect, negotiating, or even forgiveness. The Amish school shootings are one example of that last approach that maybe we in the U.S. could learn something from.
Posted by srjenkins at 10/05/2008 @ 5:46pm
Posted by palehorse67 at 10/05/2008 @ 5:44pm
I understand where you are coming from and I tihnk it is reasonable. We just have different opinions on this matter. But, I would like to press a few points.
For one, voting for someone might not always be about getting someone elected. For example, let's imagine that your state has ballot access laws that automatically put a party on the ballot if it wins above a certain percentage in a gubernational election. So, I could vote for a third party and achieve a victory - even if my candidate loses. It is setting the groundwork for victory in the future, because ballot access is a significant obstacle facing all third parties.
I think your judgment argument is the strongest. I agree Nader doesn't have as good of judgment as I would like. However, I think he has better judgment than Bush or McCain, certainly. So, I don't see it as a disqualifier.
I think the inexperience argument is just a way to shore up supporting a mentality that goes for status quo candidates - which I addressed in my post on 10/04/2008 @ 8:40pm.
I'm also not particularly convinced by arguments asserting that the country is not being ready for radical shifts in political ideology. I think sea changes do happen in environments like these and any radical shift will happen quickly - not over a long period of time. I think rising of political movements follows the Tipping Point observations viewed elsewhere.
I could probably make a few other points, but I think this covers some important ones. And, I also see that there is something to the other side of these positions - none being more right than the other.
Posted by srjenkins at 10/05/2008 @ 6:01pm