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RedditVoteVets has a new ad out against John McCain.
Here's the text:
John McCain says it's okay with him if the U.S. spends the next 1,000 years in Iraq. That's some commitment to the Iraqi people, Senator McCain...This is my little boy. He was born a year after I came home from Iraq. What kind of commitment are you making to him? How about 1,000 years of afforable healthcare? Or 1,000 years of keeping America safe? Could we afford that for my child, Senator McCain? Or have you already promised to spend trillions in Baghdad?
In an email released yesterday, McCain's campaign wants you to know that the ad "flat out lies about John McCain's positions." In fact, the precise quote is "10,000 years" in Iraq. Just more senseless thuggery from what the email calls the "angry Liberal Left" (in this case, a young mother and Iraq veteran concerned about her child's future).
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As PONTIFICUS told me, "almost none" of the guys and gals who fight or fought in Iraq are "liberals"....
so obviously this woman is lying and is probably some some hippie chick who has never been outside of Berkeley and ...uh....stuff!
Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 10:06am
so obviously this woman is lying and is probably some some hippie chick who has never been outside of Berkeley and ...uh....stuff!
Posted by MASK 02/26/2008 @ 10:06am
Mask, You know that the Pontificator believes that only rethugs have values and serve this country. Us dems who served in the military don't count because we didn't and don't get off on blowing people up therefore our service in the military doesn't count either.
The Pontificator would be surprised to see that a lot of the people in the military don't necessarily like their commander in chief, but still have to play the game and follow his rules since he is the commander in chief. That doesn't mean they like him or voted for him, it just means he's their boss and they have to follow his orders.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 02/26/2008 @ 10:22am
Iraq is a shithole with oil, and has been for a long time. all the money in the US cannot change that fact.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 10:22am
and they have to follow his orders.
Posted by WOLFGANG1 02/26/2008 @ 10:22am | ignore this person
this sounds awfully familiar. as in "I vass only followink orderrs."
that won't do.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 10:24am
McCain is the Bob Dole of our time. he will not be pres.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 10:31am
emille-You have an odd sense of morality.You have already admitted that you would reward Hillary for helping to force the troops to obey those orders by voting for her,but still try to blame the troops for following these politicians orders.You,also,don't seem to see the difference between being a regular troop and manning a Nazi death camp.You are a reward the politician who helped to start the war while blaming the troop person.
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/26/2008 @ 10:35am
10,000 years in Iraq? Well, let's look at the bright side: a.) the defense contractors stand to make a killing (ha), and you know that money will "trickle down" through the economy EVENTUALLY. b.) plenty of new job opportuntities in the armed services! and c.) every soldier killed is one less we avoid giving benefits to and pretend to care about upon return!
Sounds like a winner John, and about half of Americans seem to agree!
Posted by MATTMAN at 02/26/2008 @ 10:47am
Posted by WOLFGANG1 02/26/2008 @ 10:22am
Well, that whole thread sort of fell apart for ol' PONTI. He never could produce any evidence to back up his claim (Voting patterns for the overseas troops in 2006 midterms wouldn't have helped!)
He just knows his Limbaugh Lines...and can't think much outside them.
Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 10:48am
Posted by MATTMAN 02/26/2008 @ 10:47am
Well, what's weird is....in 10,000 years (even if you don't buy into the Hibbert Theory)...the oil will be gone and it'd be just another worthless hunk of real estate.
Or, given the population rise in Islam world-wide, we'd see 95% of humanity Muslim!
But on the up-side, in 10K years, everybody will have forgotten there were no WMDs and Saddam had no Al Qaeda alliance!
Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 10:52am
Posted by I'M NOBODY 02/26/2008 @ 10:35am | ignore this person
you are barking up the wrong tree.
the troops are not following the politician's orders, they are following the commander in thief's orders.
it wasn't just death camp guards who were on trial in Nuremberg. check your history. even the movie is a good start.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 10:54am
McCain 100 year war is for the foreign Legion to fight,not for are National Reserves. This man is in a stuper for war.
Posted by legion at 02/26/2008 @ 10:55am
McCain 100 year war is for the foreign Legion to fight,not for are National Reserves. This man is in a stuper for war.
Posted by legion at 02/26/2008 @ 10:57am
McCain 100 year war is for the foreign Legion to fight,not for are National Reserves. This man is in a stuper for war.
Posted by legion at 02/26/2008 @ 10:57am
Iraq is a shithole
Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/26/2008 @ 10:22am
i don't think the iraqis agree. all of the ones i talk to here would love to go back.
if they could.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 11:04am
and it'd be just another worthless hunk of real estate.
by mask.
well, i for one, like dates........
mmmmm.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 11:06am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/26/2008 @ 11:06am
Well, even YOU would agree that a Ray Kurzweil "Singularity" might occur in 10,000 years...and we wouldn't NEED actual food anymore!
Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 11:10am
and we wouldn't NEED actual food anymore!
Posted by MASK 02/26/2008 @ 11:10am
there won't be any space left where to grow it.
in 10,000 years, iraq may be a tropical jungle.
or under ice..........
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 11:28am
Please help ALL Muslims repatriate to a country where they'll feel at home and no need to destroy it with Sharia from within!
Posted by MEGACEPHALUS 02/26/2008 @ 11:27am | ignore this person
you must be out of your mind, and a racist to boot.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 11:29am
emille-You live in a fantasy world.Politicians, like Hillary,who gave the war their full support from the beginning are just as guilty as Bush for getting his war going.If you voted for Hillary the second time for the senate then you are a war supporter,if you voted for her during the primary then you are a war supporter.If you're willing to vote for her in the GE then are a war supporter.Simple as that.Name one regular enlisted German troop that was put on trial.When you can't then read a history book.Or watch the movie.
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/26/2008 @ 11:51am
this sounds awfully familiar. as in "I vass only followink orderrs."
that won't do.
Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/26/2008 @ 10:24am
And not followink de orders can get one a nice court martial appearance, loss of rank and pay, dishonorable discharge, and possible time at Levenworth.
I believe Watada had to deal with such a situation did he not?
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 02/26/2008 @ 11:55am
WW2 and Germany is a subject I am most familiar with. All officers were imprisoned after the war. the higher the rank, the longer the prison time.the ones imprisoned by the Russians had little chance of returning.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 12:07pm
Don't quite get the headling about "angry liberals"...it sounds like one I'd find at Drudge or Redstate...was it supposed to be snarky?
If so, I didn't get it...
Posted by wagonjak at 02/26/2008 @ 12:07pm
Posted by I'M NOBODY 02/26/2008 @ 11:51am | ignore this person
70% of Americans supported the war. I did not and I do not. I have marched in Washington against the war. given the choice between Hill and the old old soldier I would vote for Hill. it is you who lives in a phantasy world, with very little connecting you to the real world.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 12:09pm
Posted by WAGONJAK 02/26/2008 @ 12:07pm | ignore this person
I too object to the headline.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 12:10pm
Emille-Obviously,you aren't familiar with the subject of WW2 and Germany.Every officer was not given a prison sentence.Many of them ended up working for us against the USSR.Most lower ranking officers were released shortly after the paper work was completed.Same with the Japanese.I see that you were unable to name any regular troops that were put on trial.
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/26/2008 @ 12:14pm
emille-I know better than to vote for a politician that has given the war her full support since the beginning.You blame the troop while rewarding the politician and then tell me that I live in a fantasy world.You can march all you want,but if you voted for Hillary then you are a war supporter.
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/26/2008 @ 12:18pm
Damn right we're mad.
And we're not going to take this crap anymore.
Posted by Dr Decibels at 02/26/2008 @ 12:20pm
nob, you do not know what you are talking about.
United States v. Wilhelm von Leeb, et al.
On December 23, 1947, the U.S. Military Government for Germany created Military Tribunal V-A to try the High Command Case. The 14 defendants, formerly all leading command or staff officers in the German armed forces, had been indicted on November 28 in a four-count indictment. They were charged with committing crimes against peace by participating in the initiation of invasions of other countries and wars of aggression in violation of international treaties; war crimes and crimes against humanity by participating in atrocities and offenses, including murder, ill-treatment, denial of status and rights, refusal to quarter, and employment under inhuman conditions, against prisoners of war (POWs) and members of armed forces at war with Germany; war crimes and crimes against humanity by participating in atrocities and offenses, including murder, extermination, torture, use for forced labor, deportation to slave labor, persecution on religious, political, and racial grounds, and destruction of cities, towns, and villages, against German nationals and civilians of territories under German occupation; and with participation in a common plan or conspiracy to commit crimes against peace.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 12:24pm
WW2 and Germany is a subject I am most familiar with.-----Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/26/2008 @ 12:07pm
Hey, Frosty! Maybe he IS JOHANNESROLF?
heheh
Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 12:26pm
all German officers were imprisoned after the war. period. if you think you know otherwise, prove it.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 12:27pm
Emille-Those aren't regular combat troops.Obviously,you have no idea of what you are talking about and are still unable to name any regular combat troops that were put on trial.Do you even know what a regular combat troop is?
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/26/2008 @ 12:28pm
A 1,000 or 10,000 years in Iraq?
C'mon people, give yourselves a good pinch and wake up! Most of you are intelligent enough to know when politicians lie about everything and feed it back to the media just to see what the headlines will say.
Posted by ACook at 02/26/2008 @ 12:32pm
emille-The German officers were in POW camps until it could sorted out as to who did what and those regular officers who were not suspected of being involved in atrocities were released.The others were put on trial.They did not try regular troops that were not involved in the atrocities.
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/26/2008 @ 12:32pm
I did not claimed regular troops were on trial in Nuremberg.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 12:35pm
I can see how the GOP will run already. War, flags, anti-fags, terror, and I can save you. Meanwhile they will paint Obama as the most liberal, anti-American person to walk the face of the Earth, and I can only imagine the level of racism, xenophobia, etc... that they will use in back channels to discredit him...
Even if Republicans had good ideas, I just could not in good conscious support any position they have.
Posted by Tzimisce at 02/26/2008 @ 12:36pm
Posted by I'M NOBODY 02/26/2008 @ 12:32pm | ignore this person
this is just not true. officers were imprisoned according to their rank. the higher the rank, the longer the prison terms.
my point was and remains , is that the I was only following orders defense was eliminated for all soldiers.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 12:38pm
emille-The reason that regular combat troops aren't put on trial is because the world accepts the "I was just obeying orders" excuse when it comes to regular combat troops,but you,pathetically,tried to make a connection between those regular troops and those who use the "I was just obeying orders"excuse while committing atrocities..
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/26/2008 @ 12:39pm
They have done it for years now and it works for a reason. The Congressman on Bill Maher this weekend was a prime example of this nonsense. He would take what someone said COMPLETELY out of context, or rewrite their sentence or whatever intellectually dishonest tactic he felt like using and then restate it into a total lie of a one sentence response. Let me make an example of this tactic. John McCain said that Americans are prepared to be in Iraq for 100+ years. The glib one sentence framing would be, "John McCain WANTS to be in Iraq for 100+ years."
Maybe McCain does, but if he doesn't he has to spend a paragraph or two to explain what that statement meant, but he has already lost the debate because America tunes out in a quick way. Republicans are masters of the one sentence distill to a lie response and I fear America is still too stupid to not fall for it.
Posted by Tzimisce at 02/26/2008 @ 12:43pm
emille-Some of those "officers" you speak of were kids and old men who were promoted in the field because everyone else was dead.Those people were not put in prison.Most of the higher ranking officers were the hard core Hitler followers.The others were killed off by Hitler.
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/26/2008 @ 12:44pm
emille-Some of those "officers" you speak of were kids and old men who were promoted in the field because everyone else was dead.Those people were not put in prison.Most of the higher ranking officers were the hard core Hitler followers.The others were killed off by Hitler.
Posted by I'M NOBODY 02/26/2008 @ 12:44pm | ignore this person
this is all nonsense. what do you base this crap on?
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 12:46pm
Most of you are intelligent enough to know when politicians lie about everything and feed it back to the media just to see what the headlines will say.----Posted by ACOOK 02/26/2008 @ 12:32pm
So, you're calling John McCain a liar?
Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 12:48pm
"...i don't think the iraqis agree. all of the ones i talk to here would love to go back if they could."
please help them, considering who the terrorists in Spain and London were [are?] and reduce the potential Muslim 5th column in the US!
Please help ALL Muslims repatriate to a country where they'll feel at home and no need to destroy it with Sharia from within!
Posted by MEGACEPHALUS 02/26/2008 @ 11:27am
oye, nanocephalus
many of these people are christian.
dave chapelle is muslim.
where are you going to send him?
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 12:49pm
let's go a little closer to home for you. let's say the My Lai atrocities.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 12:49pm
emille-You claim to be an expert on WW2 and Germany and don't even know that Hitler killed off a bunch of his own higher ranking officers.You are unaware that Germany was running out of military age people and had to resort to using kids and old men, some of which became officers.
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/26/2008 @ 12:50pm
my point was and remains , is that the I was only following orders defense was eliminated for all soldiers.
Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/26/2008 @ 12:38pm
Emile,
Here's the catch in your argument. Any soldier can refuse what he or she believes to be an immoral order...which is what Watada did and was put before a court martial hearing for deciding what was an immoral order. See Below:
On Nov 8th, we rejoiced to learn of the preliminary injunction issued by U.S. District Court Judge Benjamin Settle. The court holds that Lt. Watada is likely to succeed at demonstrating that the military judge acted 'irrationally, irresponsibly, precipitately' and abused his 'discretion.' (Read the points made by Judge Settle>>>)
Incredibly, the Army has announced its intent to file briefs in U.S. District Court to try to prevent the injunction from becoming permanent.
The National Steering Committee of Friends & Family of Lt. Watada calls on supporters nationwide to vigil on the 1st & 3rd Saturdays of each month..... If you would like to see more about this here's the link, http://www.thankyoult.org/
My point is that the SS was torturing people, running concentration camps etc. which falls under the definition of an immoral order. Unfortunately, disobeying orders for an illegal war started by your president and allowed by your congress doesn't give a soldier much footing for defending himself against the very system that is ordering him to fight in the first place. Kind of a conflict of interest wouldn't you think. In short, it's easy for you to sit there at your computer and decide what the people in uniform should or should not do as far as following orders, but when you are looking at doing some time in the federal pen for such views, it's a little bit different game.
Watada truly is a war hero, but there won't be any ceremonies or medals for him. He'll be lucky to get an honorable discharge without having to serve time.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 02/26/2008 @ 12:51pm
Hey, Frosty! Maybe he IS JOHANNESROLF?
heheh
Posted by MASK 02/26/2008 @ 12:26pm
of course he is.
i've known that for weeks.
i'm glad he's back.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 12:52pm
because America tunes out in a quick way.
Posted by TZIMISCE 02/26/2008 @ 12:43pm
huh, what's that?
oh, ...... yeah..........
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 12:55pm
politicians lie about everything and feed it back to the media just to see what the headlines will say.
Posted by ACOOK 02/26/2008 @ 12:32pm
just like scientists, right?
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 12:56pm
i've known that for weeks.
i'm glad he's back.
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/26/2008 @ 12:52pm
Here here, but now that you've outed him, he may very well change his handle again, or worse yet opt out on us.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 02/26/2008 @ 1:02pm
Don't quite get the headling about "angry liberals"...it sounds like one I'd find at Drudge or Redstate...was it supposed to be snarky?
If so, I didn't get it...
Posted by WAGONJAK 02/26/2008 @ 12:07pm
"Toungue-in-cheek" I think.
Posted by MATTMAN at 02/26/2008 @ 1:07pm
A short list of Republican-esque smear lines to use against John McCain: "He used his position as Chairman of the Commerce Committee to get favors for his girlfriend." "He wants to keep American troops in Iraq for at least 100 more years" "John McCain is such a womanizer that his staff, had to keep someone away from him." "McCain's campaign staff has nothing but lobbists working for it."
Man crafting half-truths is fun, what other ones can we think of?
Posted by Tzimisce at 02/26/2008 @ 1:12pm
Posted by I'M NOBODY 02/26/2008 @ 12:50pm | ignore this person
Oh please. you don't know what you are talking about. I know more about this than you can imagine.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 1:14pm
Wolfgang and Frosty, thank you.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 1:15pm
he may very well change his handle again, or worse yet opt out on us.
Posted by WOLFGANG1 02/26/2008 @ 1:02pm
naw.
we're stuck with him.
;+]
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 1:19pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/26/2008 @ 1:19pm
If he is, again, try asking him if he thought the bombing raids on Germany were necessary for the Allies to win the war....ol' 'Professor' ROLF would take that bait and run with it everytime!
Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 1:33pm
emille-I'm supposed to ignore facts and go with your pathetic claim of being an expert?Your posts show extreme lack of knowledge.In fact,you're just making things up in order to justify your sick view where you blame the troop and reward the politician.Did you vote for Hillary the second time she ran?
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/26/2008 @ 1:43pm
Latest survey
Obama-- 51% vs McCain- 41%
Clinton 48% vs MCain 43%
Posted by crabwalk at 02/26/2008 @ 1:49pm
Man crafting half-truths is fun, what other ones can we think of?
Posted by TZIMISCE 02/26/2008 @ 1:12pm
McCain has repeatedly spoke of his willingness to stay in Iraq for 100 years. That is a full-truth, though it's true that the other allegations you mentioned are merely allegations.
Posted by MATTMAN at 02/26/2008 @ 1:52pm
Posted by CRABWALK 02/26/2008 @ 1:49pm
Right on! Which poll?
Posted by MATTMAN at 02/26/2008 @ 1:53pm
Posted by MATTMAN 02/26/2008 @ 1:53pm
poll-dancing.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 1:54pm
emille-My family is German.We have relatives who were in the German military one of which was a young officer, like those I spoke of.He not only was not put in prison,but he came here a few years after the war and became a citizen.He was just a kid and was released.
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/26/2008 @ 1:59pm
McCain has repeatedly spoke of his willingness to stay in Iraq for 100 years. That is a full-truth, though it's true that the other allegations you mentioned are merely allegations.
Posted by MATTMAN 02/26/2008 @ 1:52pm
"willingness" /= "wanting" It is merely show "strength of resolve." So i was still taking his view to be that he WANTS and WILL stay in Iraq for 100 years.
Posted by Tzimisce at 02/26/2008 @ 2:06pm
But see what i mean i had to spend a paragraph to parse those words.
Posted by Tzimisce at 02/26/2008 @ 2:06pm
Posted by CRABWALK 02/26/2008 @ 1:49pm
Wait a minute that poll was before Nader got in the race...what happens after Obama is "pulled back to the Left" on the fear of the massive support of Ralph?!?!?!?!
Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 2:15pm
There is a stampede of progressives flocking to drool on every word that comes out of Nader's mouth... Or not. There may be a handful of true believers but Nader might be even less relevant than John Edwards, and Edwards is no longer running.
Posted by Tzimisce at 02/26/2008 @ 2:29pm
The heading was a reference to language from McCain's campaign email...see the bottom of the post.
Posted by s-interns at 02/26/2008 @ 2:55pm
angry liberal left slammin mile high mccain? good - thats what the angry liberal left should be doing...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/26/2008 @ 3:05pm
Posted by I'M NOBODY 02/26/2008 @ 1:59pm | ignore this person
both my father and my grandfather were in the Wehrmacht. My father, an Austrian, was drafted. my grandfather was a professional soldier. his rank was colonel, what here would be a full bird. he was imprisoned after the war for one year. had he made general it would have been two years.
I know all about the things which you claim I do not know. I know for instance that at the time of the assassination attempt on Hitler, there was a coup d'etat in progress, as the first reports from East Prussia, had Hitler dead. at that time many in the army showed their hand, and were killed.
I grew up in a devastated country and in a devastated family. I know for instance that at war's end, military men could not find jobs, as the population blamed them for the war. I also know that my grandfather, who was in the police, left the police to join the army when required to swear a Nazi oath. it was not required from the army, though later it was. I also know that my grandfather did not receive a pension until many years after the war, and survived on care packages from former prisoners of war of his. I also know that I heard these stories shortly after the war, when they were fresh in everyone's mind.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 3:11pm
poll-dancing.
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/26/2008 @ 1:54pm
Who would you rather see pole dance?
Obama- 10%, Clinton 22% McCain- 5% Would rather have my eyes gouged out by Ralph Naders Raiders using dull deer antlers purchased from Chinese slave labor-65%
Posted by crabwalk at 02/26/2008 @ 3:16pm
Right on! Which poll?
Posted by MATTMAN 02/26/2008 @ 1:53pm
AP
Posted by crabwalk at 02/26/2008 @ 3:17pm
angry liberal left slammin mile high mccain? good - thats what the angry liberal left should be doing...
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/26/2008 @ 3:05pm
When they are not slammin liberal lefty Ralph. That seems to be taiking up some valuable outrage that could be better used on the O-train/Clinton machines known as the DLC.
Posted by crabwalk at 02/26/2008 @ 3:33pm
Does anyone seriously believe there will be a populated planet know as EARTH in 10K years, or even in 1K years.
In in the unlikely event that those might be plausible scenarios, does anyone actually believe today's political boundaries will still be in place even in 100 years. History suggests that it's not bloody likely.
Posted by jackwells at 02/26/2008 @ 4:05pm
Posted by JACKWELLS 02/26/2008 @ 4:05pm
Is it "JACK"...or "H.G."?
Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 4:06pm
Did you vote for Hillary the second time she ran?
Posted by I'M NOBODY 02/26/2008 @ 1:43pm | ignore this person
that is none of your business.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 4:14pm
They have done it for years now and it works for a reason. The Congressman on Bill Maher this weekend was a prime example of this nonsense. He would take what someone said COMPLETELY out of context, or rewrite their sentence or whatever intellectually dishonest tactic he felt like using and then restate it into a total lie of a one sentence response.
Posted by TZIMISCE 02/26/2008 @ 12:43pm
I saw that congressman on Maher's show. His name is Jack Kingston. His rhetoric is very similar to what the right wingers post here. Kingston just had to point out that Obama's middle name is Hussein. What a total moron.
Posted by jaded at 02/26/2008 @ 4:14pm
that is none of your business.
Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/26/2008 @ 4:14pm
See, now THAT sounds like "Professor" ROLF too!....heheh
Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 4:38pm
Iraq is a shithole with oil, and has been for a long time. all the money in the US cannot change that fact.
So these are the kind of statements that I hate. Push Emile on this point and he will dodge and weave. It is true that for the past 10-15 years Iraq was falling apart. It was true for 30 years before that that Iraq was politically backward. But during those thirty years Iraq was a well-educated, well-fed, healthy, organized country. Before that it was for a long time the intellectual center of the Muslim world (at least Baghdad was. Mosil was important too), which was for hundreds of years the intellectual center of the world.
Now I am sure the dodge that Emile will use is 'by long time I meant the last 10-15 years.' But we all know why Iraq was such a terrible place those 10-15 years don't we? The combination of sanctions that the US took the lead in instituting and maintaining and a dictator who the US helped reach his position of power.(not that we were involved in the coup that brought Saddam to power, but that we were responsible for his coming to be as powerful in Iraq as he was) So the destitution in Iraq in those years doesn't support at all the claim that there is nothing the US can do in Iraq. We can help get them back to where they were before we reduced them to abject poverty.
There are some big problem with statements like these. One is that their sloppiness inspires racist readings. You hear the exact same kinds of claims coming out of the mouths of racist peices of shit who think that them Hayrabs are hopeless savages and always have been. When the anti-war left isn't careful to distinguish itself from such filth it makes us look really bad. A related problem is that statements like these make the anti-war left look morally callous. When people hear that we want to get out they assume that we don't recognize the moral responsibilities we have incurred in the last five years (we really have been incuring them for decades). There is plenty of aid that we owe the Iraqis. The argument has to be about troops and occupation, not aid. Anything else is willful blindness to long standing commitments we have taken on.
Posted by dentedpat at 02/26/2008 @ 4:44pm
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=dentedpat
I will admit that was a bit crude. but true. Iraq has been a very nasty place for at least the past 50 years. yes, they were a secular modern nation, BUT if you were Shia or Kurd you got the back of the hand and worse. Baghdad hasn't been a great cultural center since the Mongols destroyed it in 1258.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 5:23pm
I will admit that the US owes Iraq, but it is a debt that will never be paid.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 5:25pm
both my father and my grandfather were in the Wehrmacht. My father, an Austrian, was drafted. my grandfather was a professional soldier. his rank was colonel, what here would be a full bird. he was imprisoned after the war for one year. had he made general it would have been two years
JR,
Sounds like your grandfather was caught between a rock and a hard spot. If he didn't follow orders, he more than likely would have been killed by the German army, but it turned out that he was on the losing side of a war, so he ended up doing time for following orders that the enemy deemed immoral. That's a no win scenario if I ever heard one.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 02/26/2008 @ 5:29pm
yes, the greatest generation did not have it easy. not obeying an order got you shot on the spot, and your family into Dachau.
what I really like to concentrate is the resistance to Hitler, many of whom paid with their lives. von Stauffenberg was just one of many.
the Russians had assassination squads right behind the troops. if you did not advance you were shot by them. after the war, russian prisoners of war were sent to prison in Siberia. they were supposed to fight and die, not get captured.
one more point. the Germans had a total devaluation of currency in 1923 and then again in 1928 during the depression.Most folks lost everything. if that happened here, there would be goosestepping down Pennsylvania avenue and Sieg Heiling in the rotunda of the capitol.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 5:53pm
This forum's software doesn't format poetry well, so I'll just have to demarcate stanza lines with a "/" character. At any rate, as a victim/veteran of the Nixon-Kissinger Fig Leaf Contingent (Vietnam 1970-1972) I have the following "angry leftist" view of that Geriatric Old Poop now the presumptive Republican Party nominee for sacrificial scapegoat in 2008. I call it "Up Yours, John McCain!"
Well, "Up Yours!" Mad Dog John McCain,/ And what's that stench I smell?/ Why could it be an albatross/ That you wear like a bell:/ A dead, decaying necklace that/ Suits leper losers well?
I do hope that you keep it up/ Attacking us who learned/ In Southeast Asia lessons that/ You've only ever spurned/ An asinine amnesiac,/ Your coming loss you've earned
That fetid, feathered bird you wear/ So proudly on your chest/ Sure ought to help you win two states/ And that's about the best/ That fools like you could hope to win/ While losing all the rest/
Just like a bomber pilot you/ Just shit on those below/ And never see the ground beneath/ Where people you don't know/ Look up and curse the vapor trail/ From hot air that you blow
And do team up with Holy Joe/ The Judas Lie-berman/ Who trashes "his own party" for/ The Faux News Murdoch clan/ And Zionist Likudniks who/ Promote the fascist plan
Each day we've lost two more GIs/ Through years that number four/ Now with your "surge" you've doubled that/ With killed and maimed galore/ Among Iraqis -- Afghans, too --/ And still you cry for more!
You have no honor left to lose/ You sold that long ago/ For dreams of fighting 'Nam again/ And just as badly, so/ Your plans for poor Iraq amount/ To nothing we don't know
You've nothing new to add of worth,/ Just more of what we've had:/ A litany of lies and death/ And "leadership" so bad/ That more of what you offer could/ But make more widows sad
Please go away and save us all/ The boredom of your screeds/ We've seen and heard enough from George/ And all his lousy deeds/ We really do not care for you/ And your pathetic needs
So "Up Yours!" Mad Dog John McCain,/ And you can kiss my butt/ Your stupid brain has slipped some gears/ And left you in a rut/ Espousing war that no one wants --/ Except the senile nut
Michael Murry, "The Misfortune Teller," Copyright 2007
Posted by mikemurry at 02/26/2008 @ 6:37pm
Ah. Oprahbamania. Angry white liberal men who suddenly fall in love with Islam, and those of you who love good-news polls, take this.
-----------
A Times/Bloomberg poll finds McCain ahead of both Democrats in head-to-head matchups. Respondents give the Republican higher marks on handling Iraq and fighting terrorism. By Peter Wallsten, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer 5:57 PM PST, February 26, 2008 WASHINGTON -- After a sometimes bitter primary campaign, presumptive Republican nominee John McCain now presents a stiff challenge to either of his potential Democratic opponents in the general election, a new Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll has found.
The findings underscore the difficulties ahead for Democrats as they hope to retake the White House during a time of war, with voters giving McCain far higher marks when it comes to experience, fighting terrorism and dealing with the situation in Iraq.
Posted by HelenDAO at 02/26/2008 @ 9:20pm
Ah. Oprahbamania. Angry white liberal men who suddenly fall in love with Islam, and those of you who love good-news polls, take this.
complete crap. or irony? Obama has very little to do with Islam. he went to an islamic school at age eight. that's pretty much it. oh yes an islamic dad, who evidently wasn't around much.
Posted by emile duBois at 02/26/2008 @ 9:24pm
Posted by MASK 02/26/2008 @ 10:06am
As PONTIFICUS told me, "almost none" of the guys and gals who fight or fought in Iraq are "liberals"....
so obviously this woman is lying and is probably some some hippie chick who has never been outside of Berkeley and ...uh....stuff!
Yes, MASK, I realize that in the house of mirrors you (and the Nation) call your reasoning faculties one woman who claims to be an Iraq war veteran out of half a million constitutes a 'significant percentage'. Moreover, I can see how in what's left of your mental faculties, it seems reasonable to you that any significant number of your knee-jerk Bush hating ideological soulmates and well-protected pacifists would suddenly feel the urge to volunteer to put their asses on the line for a cause they don't believe in. Of course I can't expect you to be aware that the military is all voluntary, and that the draft ended with the war in Vietnam ended 35 years ago. Good luck with all that.
Posted by pontificus at 02/26/2008 @ 9:29pm
Thank God Ralph Nader is running again. Best news since the NYT's stock hit $14 a share. Stick it to the MAN, Ralphie!
Posted by pontificus at 02/26/2008 @ 9:33pm
Woooohoooo...now this is what I call poetic justice. The home of the loony left movement gets what it deserves - the government's hand on their thermostat! Awwesome! Hey, how come you guys don't build more of those windmills to get you out of your pickle! How about some more solar panels! Wassupp! Y'all have fun next summer, ya hear!
California Plans to Control Home Thermostats Via Internet, Radio Michael Asher (Blog) - January 14, 2008 10:25 AM
New plan to control electricity usage stirs controversy
To some, it's a simple, necessary step to safeguard the public. To others, an Orwellian nightmare.
Next year, California lawmakers will fit homes and buildings with special radio-controlled thermostats to help manage electricity shortages. The utility will transmit a suggested temperature setting through the Internet to local radio transmitters, which will then forward it via radio to the homes.
Consumers are allowed to override the suggested setting if they wish-- except when energy prices are soaring. At that point, the utility can dictate the temperature to reduce electricity demand, and avoid the possibility of outages.
Posted by pontificus at 02/26/2008 @ 9:41pm
Is it "JACK"...or "H.G."?
Posted by MASK
Good one, MASK, take your pick.
Nuclear holocaust(s).
Sub-planetary collision.
Stellar collapse.
Space invaders (my fav).
Some physics thing that hasn't yet been discovered.
Evaporation of the atmosphere.
Doesn't much matter since none of us will be here to experience it.
Posted by jackwells at 02/26/2008 @ 10:03pm
Doesn't much matter since none of us will be here to experience it.
Posted by JACKWELLS 02/26/2008 @ 10:03pm
well, our recycled dirt will be............
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 11:06pm