Act Now!

Not One Penny More

posted by Peter Rothberg on 02/27/2006 @ 4:32pm

As we approach the third anniversary of Bush's invasion of Iraq, the National Priorities Project (NPP) has issued an invaluable new report demonstrating the financial impact of the war on taxpayers in every state. (And this doesn't even take into account Bush's new request for another 72.4 billion dollars in "emergency supplemental funding" for the war.)

If the war didn't cost a penny it would, of course, be a terribly wrong thing. But focusing on the war's costs at home could be another effective way to illustrate to many Americans how deeply damaging the war is on so many levels. So check out NPP's report, tell all your friends about it, and participate in a National Call-In Day, TOMORROW, Tuesday, February 28, organized by our friends at Democrats.com.

Call the Capitol Hill switchboard anytime tomorrow at 202-224-3121 and ask to speak to your Representative. (Click here to find out who they are.) Democrats.com suggests giving them this basic message in your own words: "I strongly oppose the war in Iraq. I want all our troops brought home safely, without delay. I urge Representative X to vote against the President's $72.4 billion 'emergency' supplemental request for the war."

The Republicans who run Congress will include small amounts of money for numerous good things in the supplemental bill to be voted on. This will provide your Representative all sorts of noble excuses for voting to authorize another massive amount of funding for the occupation. Tell them this position will only be credible if they also co-sponsor Rep. Jim McGovern's bill, which simply ends funding for the war.

McGovern's bill (H.R. 4232) would allow Defense Department funds to be used only to provide for the safe and orderly withdrawal of all troops; consultations with other governments, NATO, and the UN regarding international forces; and financial assistance and equipment to either Iraqi security forces and/or international forces. (The bill would not prohibit or restrict non-defense funding to carry out reconstruction in Iraq.)

Click here to email your elected reps imploring them to support McGovern's legislation and remember to call Capitol Hill sometime tomorrow.

Comments (281)

  1. If you're going after leakers now, make sure to mention Karl Rove!

    Posted by Peter Rothberg at 02/27/2006 @ 4:52pm

  2. PETER:

    Don't you know he only goes after people with whom he doesn't share ideological affinity?

    Posted by jorcheim at 02/27/2006 @ 4:54pm

  3. Peter

    you are asking our current Congress to act like they aren't a lap dog for the Bush White House.

    (But they are a lap dog for the Bush White house)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/27/2006 @ 4:56pm

  4. "If the war didn't cost a penny it would, of course, be a terribly wrong thing."

    Really? According to whom? Did you interview those family members of people killed or tortured under Saddam's regime and ask them if it's a "terribly wrong thing", I'm just curious.

    Todd

    Posted by Oksportsguy at 02/27/2006 @ 5:12pm

  5. A note to editors, bloggers, pundits and other purveyors of opinion: you are ALL playing into the hands of Bush, Cheney and this administration. How? By constantly using the phrases they want you to use, namely those that frame all debate in terms of "war." Every time you use descriptives like, "War in Iraq," or "War on Terror," or phrases like "...in a time of war," or "...a war-time president..." in fact any time you use the word "war" to describe the events Bush & Co. have brought down on the world, you are playing into their hands. They don't care if you agree or disagree. They don't give a damn what you say about them. As long as you couch your criticisms in an acknowledgement that "We are at war," they've won game, set and match. They are empowered by that one word more than any other. But the fact is, we are not at war. Congress is solely empowered to declare war on sovereign nations and it has not done so. What has happened is that President Bush has sent an oversized SWAT team to break down Saddam's door, haul him to jail and secure his stash of oil. Unfortunately for Bush, there are other factors he didn't count on that now beset the brave men and women he sent to do his dirty work. To call this fiasco a "war" legitimizes much of what Bush has done and lends gravitas to his lightweight presence in the White House.

    And, of course, it validates the fear factor that is so essential to almost all administration tactics. The word "Terror" runs a close second and should also be avoided if at all possible.

    Please, please...start looking for other terminology. "Conflict in Iraq" should do the job. "The American venture in Iraq" looks good. "Struggle to deter violent religious fundamentalism," will drive them nuts. It will rob them of an important tool if we all refuse to let them choose the vocabulary with which they seek to frame every important issue of the day.

    Posted by Jhoughton1 at 02/27/2006 @ 5:17pm

  6. uhh Todd ... it's called an opinion.

    Posted by Hman23 at 02/27/2006 @ 5:19pm

  7. "uhh Todd ... it's called an opinion."

    Oh....ok... thanks for the clarification, while we are on the subject of polling peoples' oppinion, let the record show, I'm elated we are kicking ass and taking names in Iraq and hope we kill a few more terrorists today.

    What's yours?

    Todd

    Posted by Oksportsguy at 02/27/2006 @ 5:35pm

  8. Jhoughton1,

    What do you think of the term, "Invasion and Occupation of Iraq".

    You could use the initials "IOI", and it could be interpreted as "Idiot owns Iraq".

    Posted by oraibi1952 at 02/27/2006 @ 5:36pm

  9. I'm of the opinion that you are deluded to think we are "kicking ass and taking names" in Iraq.

    IMHO - The Iraq misadventure was illegal, the public was purposefully misled about the purported Iraqi threat, the consequences were misjudged, Bush has been a total failure, people have died and been injured for no reason, and it is imposing needless economic costs on our country.

    Posted by Hman23 at 02/27/2006 @ 5:51pm

  10. Todd--I have to say that I just edited out that line but wanted to make sure you knew I did so before reading your comment. I did b/c I thought it was redundant. HMAN made the obvious point and since you're really interested in polling, then, of course, you know that virtually all the polls being done in Iraq currently report that a majority of Iraqis want the US to leave immediately. Either way, I'm sorry you're wishing today for more people to be killed. I'm hoping for as quiet a day as Iraq can muster.

    Posted by Peter Rothberg at 02/27/2006 @ 6:16pm

  11. Todd

    Posted by OKSPORTSGUY 02/27/2006 @ 5:12pm

    hmm - let me stat looking...estimates of iraqi deaths as a direct or indirect result of our invasion....vs. estimates of civilians killed in sadaam's regime...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/27/2006 @ 6:23pm

  12. well, from what i can see, from a brief search, we still have not reached the 25,000 civilians killed a year under hussein. may he burn in hell.

    there are estimates from 04 of as high as 100,000, which have been discredited, though not conclusively so. cant find info yet of post 2004, though. the best i can get is a fuzzy figure of between 7,000 a year and 25,000+, depending on who you ask, how they count, how good their guesses are...what their ideological bent is...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/27/2006 @ 6:45pm

  13. We are killing insurgents, mainly Iraqis.

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/27/2006 @ 6:54pm

    What! You mean you're allowed to defend your country from a foreign invader that destroys your cities and towns and tortures your sons and daughters while leaving your streets a septic mess.

    No way!

    Posted by Will C. at 02/27/2006 @ 7:00pm

  14. FRANK

    apparantly its so hard because deaths of women and children appear to be vastly underestimated...and because its difficult to ascribe cause and effect (how many civilians die now as a result of the occupation vs. how many died by saddam's hands...how many would have been getting killed without saddam's bloody iron fist).

    regardless, i don't see us either going into or encouraging others to go into darfur...nor did we feel compelled to deal thusly with rwanda nor other areas afflicted by genocidal rulers...mix some oil in with the blood though...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/27/2006 @ 7:01pm

  15. FRANK

    seen "ha ha ha america" yet? http://festival.sundance.org/2006/watch/index.aspx

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/27/2006 @ 7:04pm

  16. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/27/2006 @ 7:01pm

    If this war ever becomes the textbook example of how to invade a country, depose its ruler and then set up democracy, I think I will inexplicably find myself a proponent of book burning

    Posted by Will C. at 02/27/2006 @ 7:04pm

  17. WILL C, ???

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/27/2006 @ 7:02pm

    Ha Ha Ha Ha

    almost threw you there, huh Frank?

    :)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/27/2006 @ 7:06pm

  18. never

    :)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/27/2006 @ 7:08pm

  19. Posted by WILL C. 02/27/2006 @ 7:04pm

    wait will - when saudi and other sunni arab armies end up taking our place and the country is divided up into three parts maybe it will be a textbook example of how to dismember a poorly thought out colonial debacle and unify people who should be one nation (sunni arabs in the middle east)

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/27/2006 @ 7:08pm

  20. Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/27/2006 @ 7:09pm

    call me crazy (and many have) but i cant yet find a legit reason to not allow these guys to run the ports...hate to say it, but...until something more damning comes out this is one of the few times i can say, "w, i got to agree with you on this"

    ow...that hurt...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/27/2006 @ 7:12pm

  21. yeah FRANK

    germany was once a collection of disparate states, as was italy...what do we see in the midle east today? a bunch of disparate arab sunni muslim states...keep southern iraq a shia state, give the kurds their own country, look toward unifying the arabian pennisula, jordan, syria, rump sunni iraq, into a hopefully moderate sunni arab superstate...are we so sure this is not what the saudi royalty (backed by their american branch the bushes) have been driving at for quite some time?

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/27/2006 @ 7:17pm

  22. AP report of one hour ago. Coast Guard says it could not be certain that the Dubai company would not cooperate with terrorists. Duh!!!! We are their enemy. What the hell is going on?

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/27/2006 @ 7:13pm | ignore this person

    could the coast guard be sure with an american owned company? especially with the parsimonious budget allocated by this government of ours?

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/27/2006 @ 7:19pm

  23. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/27/2006 @ 7:08pm

    one of the thing that Schwartzkopf always refered to in his book was the "Arab Brother" thing. At the time of the gulf war it was a huge concept. It is is possible that Iraq will undo that concept as sunni is pitted against shia and one group of arabs find itself being drawn together at the same time the other group of arabs is drawn to Iran (who are considered Persians).

    And the bulk of the oil goes over to the Persian side.

    but both sides have the money to buy all the weapons they want.

    Posted by Will C. at 02/27/2006 @ 7:19pm

  24. Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/27/2006 @ 7:19pm

    WATCH THE MOVIE - I WANT YOUR REACTION!!!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/27/2006 @ 7:22pm

  25. WILL

    i don't think throwing shia in with sunni is a good idea, but te only place i know of, other than lebanon, where significant numbers of ARABS are shiites, is southern iraq. so keep it separate from the PERSIAN shiites...who are the scariest in the long run. then if sunni superstate and shia iran want to squabble, well, we've been on the sunni side before - with ole saddam himself in the iran-iraq war...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/27/2006 @ 7:26pm

  26. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/27/2006 @ 7:26pm

    I'm just watching the events as they unfold. If the worst case scenario plays out Sunnis and Shia's that were once welcome in certain parts of the Arab world may wake up one day and find themselves being given the opportunity to leave.

    Or not... it depends on how pissed the guy with the gun is.

    Posted by Will C. at 02/27/2006 @ 7:36pm

  27. t depends on how pissed the guy with the gun is.

    Posted by WILL C. 02/27/2006 @ 7:36pm

    lots of pissed peeps over there...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/27/2006 @ 7:43pm

  28. "I'm elated we are kicking ass and taking names in Iraq and hope we kill a few more terrorists today."

    Posted by OKSPORTSGUY 02/27/2006 @ 5:35pm

    YEA! As long as they are brownish and non-christian, fuck 'em.

    Anybody who shoots at armed foreigners in their country is a terrorist and deserves to die.

    Thank you for enlightening me with your mid-western christian values. Now I too, hope a select group of people are saved by your sadistic god, and the vast majority of mankind suffers.

    How could I have been so blind for so long.

    Death to the infide....eh....what do you call 'em? Ah, who cares. As long as people different from me die.

    Eric

    Posted by malcontent3 at 02/27/2006 @ 8:25pm

  29. You know, decades from now- if there are decades from now- we'll be witness to the same sort of weepy nonsense that accompanies all too many expositions on the Third Reich and its atrocities when historians are trying to unravel this mess. And should we survive the coming holocaust, I hope some of us will remember just how sure these ninnies were.

    Posted by Legba at 02/27/2006 @ 9:11pm

  30. the chinese communists will be in charge then - they will have bought us up by then, and the selling started full throttle with this hillbilly ceo president - ha ha ha

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/27/2006 @ 9:53pm

  31. the bigest economic factor tha derailed johnson's great society was the black hole of saigon...just could not pay for war and peaceful development. at least we had some shared dreams then - now its more like ust cant pay for war with no taxes...shared selfishness

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/27/2006 @ 10:47pm

  32. Republican members of Congress got the phone call over the weekend. If they didn't make sure the port deal went through, there would be no campaign dollars or appearances with 'Wanted Dead Or Alive Dubya' or 'Double Barrel Cheney'.

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/27/2006 @ 6:44pm

    Jeez, Frank. Threatening no public appearances with Bush? I imagine the likely response was, "Do you promise?"

    Posted by Hman23 at 02/27/2006 @ 11:08pm

  33. You can debate wheter or not the war in Irag was right, but at a cost of only 2% of annual GDP, it's not breaking the bank as some would say.

    Compare that to Vietnam which was 12% of annual GDP.

    Posted by Zeddmen at 02/27/2006 @ 11:56pm

  34. Iraq

    Posted by Zeddmen at 02/27/2006 @ 11:59pm

  35. I just read that this last week alone 1300 Iraqi were killed. Yeah sure there's no civil war. They're pretty much killing each as much as possible. Killing our guys too. Focusing on the money, although somewhat important, is just the tip of the iceberg.

    Posted by Bushfools at 02/28/2006 @ 12:50am

  36. You can debate wheter or not the war in Irag was right, but at a cost of only 2% of annual GDP, it's not breaking the bank as some would say. Compare that to Vietnam which was 12% of annual GDP. Posted by ZEDDMEN 02/27/2006 @ 11:56pm | ignore this person

    Hey, what a bargain! Golly gee whiz, Zeddmen, when you put it like that, I feel so badly about complaining.

    Posted by seattlescribe at 02/28/2006 @ 01:01am

  37. The wealth being created though is funnelling to a selected very few as the average American is losing wealth every year since the BC BS regime self selected themself in, we're getting poorer and the deficit is going up as there's more tax cuts benefitting primarily the richest, and China is selling us a lot more than we're selling anyone, we're spending less on infrestructure, education, veterans' health care, cutting national guard funding, social services poof, and we're borrowing the money for the war from who?, but it's only 2% of the GDP, so why are we borrowing and going further into debt if there's 98% more coming in?, not! And BTW the unemployment figure is more like 12% if you count all the people no longer eligible for benefits that have just given up looking and you don't count people with 2 to 3 jobs-- 2 or 3 times.. . And then finally-- there's all the murder and turture for profit going on-- now that's really priceless. Can't put a price on that, but of course they do or people wouldn't be dying, right.

    Posted by Bushfools at 02/28/2006 @ 01:34am

  38. IBBLEBLIBBLE,

    I saw "Ha Ha Ha America" and found it both extremely funny, yet utterly sobering. I wish everyone in America could see this short film. I passed the link onto all the people in my address book. Thank you!

    Posted by Gumbyman at 02/28/2006 @ 01:48am

  39. The real humor is that anyone believes that liberalism offers any hope for America or the world...now that's funny!

    Posted by lvliberty at 02/28/2006 @ 03:31am

  40. Excuse me, Peter

    but how does McGovern's bill NOT get spun as "cutting funding for troops fighting a war" by the Right....

    as well as the play off of his LAST NAME?

    Posted by Mask at 02/28/2006 @ 06:40am

  41. Posted by LVLIBERTY 02/28/2006 @ 03:31am

    ha ha ha! stupid superstitious american hillbilly no apply intelligent design to politics, ecnomics!!! just sit on sidelines laughing at people who try to do something positive! HA HA HA...

    "ha ha ha america" www.sundancefilms.org

    watch it before u call me an idiot...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/28/2006 @ 08:08am

  42. FRANKGRITS, GUMBYMAN

    the film kind of puts it all in perspective, does it not? have we evolved into a nation of eternally adoselscent, ignorant, spoiled, petulent, trivialized, silly ninnies? compared to communist china

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/28/2006 @ 08:12am

  43. OK, yeah right, this makes sense-- can we say HAMAS, but it's only good old shoot you in the face boy chickenhawk policy. You make no money, you not friend, hahaha. I get it. We, the people, die for democracy, are getting poorer, can't help anyone that doesn't recognize Isreal, but really money is more important-- get it--- money. Not money for us though. The BC BS regime only cares about themselves and their buddies making MONEY. They don't care about democracy or security or evenwhrther the USA survives. It's all about the haves having it all and have-nots not. But the little cute GOP pups are running around chasing those multicolored terror sticks, There boys here's another one you go fetch now, like a RWB stick now or a red abortion stick-- you MSM overthere, don't just sit there you fetch too, tired of playing with the gay sticks, here's more sticks, but you can't see them all 'til we're ready to throw them, thems special secret sticks.

    Feb. 28, 2006 2:55 | Updated Feb. 28, 2006 14:08

    Exclusive: Dubai ports firm enforces Israel boycott

    By MICHAEL FREUND

    The parent company of a Dubai-based firm at the center of a political storm in the US over the purchase of American ports participates in the Arab boycott against Israel, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

    The firm, Dubai Ports World, is seeking control over six major US ports, including those in New York, Miami, Philadelphia and Baltimore. It is entirely owned by the Government of Dubai via a holding company called the Ports, Customs and Free Zone Corporation (PCZC), which consists of the Dubai Port Authority, the Dubai Customs Department and the Jebel Ali Free Zone Area.

    JPOST.COM HIT LIST

    See JPost.com's hottest articles this past week [click here]

    "Yes, of course the boycott is still in place and is still enforced," Muhammad Rashid a-Din, a staff member of the Dubai Customs Department's Office for the Boycott of Israel, told the Post in a telephone interview.

    "If a product contained even some components that were made in Israel, and you wanted to import it to Dubai, it would be a problem," he said.

    A-Din noted that while the head office for the anti-Israel boycott sits in Damascus, he and his fellow staff members are paid employees of the Dubai Customs Department, which is a division of the PCZC, the same Dubai government-owned entity that runs Dubai Ports World.

    Moreover, the Post found that the website for Dubai's Jebel Ali Free Zone Area, which is also part of the PCZC, advises importers that they will need to comply with the terms of the boycott.

    In a section entitled "Frequently Asked Questions", the site lists six documents that are required in order to clear an item through the Dubai Customs Department. One of them, called a "Certificate of Origin," "is used by customs to confirm the country of origin and needs to be seen by the office which ensures any trade boycotts are enforced," according to the website.

    Posted by Bushfools at 02/28/2006 @ 08:24am

  44. sportsguy:"grr, kill, kill"

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 08:37am

  45. Ibble:"keep southern iraq a shia state, give the kurds their own country, look toward unifying the arabian pennisula, jordan, syria, rump sunni iraq, into a hopefully moderate sunni arab superstate...are we so sure this is not what the saudi royalty (backed by their american branch the bushes) have been driving at for quite some time?"

    this is unbelievable naive of geopolitical realities.

    Iraq cannot be divided along sectarian lines, because the oil is not distributed along sectarian lines.

    a kurdish state is impossible because of our ally Turkey, which with a restless kurdish minority in their own country, will not allow a kurdish state on their border.

    the arabs have tried numerous times to create an arab "superstate", failing each time. eventhough they share their arabness, they have little else in common politically.

    it is very unlikely that Saudi would be part of another state, as it would dilute the already shaky hold on power they enjoy now. remember, Bin Laden's main goal is and always has been to topple the monarchy in Saudi, america being his secondary target.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 08:57am

  46. Eric,

    "Death to the infide....eh....what do you call 'em? Ah, who cares. As long as people different from me die."

    Nope, only the ones that try to fly planes into civilian buildings or pick up arms against our American military.

    Good blogging with you as always my friend!

    Todd

    Posted by Oksportsguy at 02/28/2006 @ 09:18am

  47. PETER

    Since Haliburton is making all this money off of the soldiers and the taxpayers backs(i.e. we make the money that they collect), will they be giving to any charitable organizations. It would be a shame that they just do a poor to horrible job and take the money and run. Another question, when Dick Cheney leaves office , does he resume his postion as CEO of Halliburton? I mean, he did leave his position just to become vice president after he couldn't find anyone good enough (other than himself) to be GWB's running mate.

    Posted by k330k at 02/28/2006 @ 09:52am

  48. Todd,

    Nope, only the ones that try to fly planes into civilian buildings Except those specific dudes died in the act, and the list of countries that actually supported them doesn't include Iraq or pick up arms against our American military Even though we're in their country, doing far more damage to the infrastructure than Saddam (evil baddie though he was) and killing pelnty of people who never picked up a gun, but whose sons and daughters just might because of our presence

    Iraq never attacked Americans before 9/11, or after - except for the times we invaded. '91 invasion was moderately justified and moderately successful. Present invasion, not so much!

    Posted by Turk33 at 02/28/2006 @ 09:54am

  49. Posted by ZEDDMEN 02/27/2006 @ 11:56pm

    I read that Bush is asking for $120 billion more for the war in the 2007 budget. So this is not breaking the bank, only the $14.7 billion Bush says we need to slash from domestic programs, including benefits to veterans.

    Does your GDP percentage apply to this even smaller number as well?

    Posted by Hman23 at 02/28/2006 @ 09:59am

  50. "Except those specific dudes died in the act, and the list of countries that actually supported them doesn't include Iraq"

    Which is why if the Bush admin had half the balls they pretend to have, we would be going into Saudi Arabia next, after we finish creating a "U.S. friendly" (including an oil friendly trading partner) however we all know that won't happen since Bush & Co. are "tight" with the Saudi empire.

    We should be focusing on finishing the work started in Afghanistan, dealing with the terrorists support from Saudi and then Iran, and then Syria and then North Korea, but nooooo Bush has to be spending all the time and resources in Iraq. Although Iraq can help with a supply of oil, which helps, and verifiable evidence exists that there was some level of terrorist support from the country; Iraq should not be our main front on the war on terror.

    Of course with all the above said, anytime we can kill some terrorists (even in Iraq) that's a good day in my book.

    Todd

    Posted by Oksportsguy at 02/28/2006 @ 10:00am

  51. JOHANNESROLF

    Iraq cannot be divided along sectarian lines, because the oil is not distributed along sectarian lines.

    if saudi arabia, kuwait, and all the oil rich arab states incorporate the oil poor sunni triangle as well as oil poor arab states into sunni arab nation, will it not be a situation similar to east germany's reintegration into (west) germany? time for wealthy arab nations to take responsability...

    a kurdish state is impossible because of our ally Turkey, which with a restless kurdish minority in their own country, will not allow a kurdish state on their border.

    what if we encourage turkey to sponsor the kurdish state? then if turkish kurds want to leave turkey...they can go to an independent kurdistan...so can syrian kurds, iranan kurds...with turkey as their sponsor and protector...whats the problem, other than a lack of imagination?

    the arabs have tried numerous times to create an arab "superstate", failing each time. eventhough they share their arabness, they have little else in common politically.

    how many time did germans and italians try to unify before they succeeded? they failed, often miserably, each and every time...until they succeeded...

    it is very unlikely that Saudi would be part of another state, as it would dilute the already shaky hold on power they enjoy now. remember, Bin Laden's main goal is and always has been to topple the monarchy in Saudi, america being his secondary target.

    perhaps the saudi monarchy is sharper than we think. perhaps they ascribe to the old mantra of classical conservatism which says that change is inevitable, lets just not rush into it willy nilly - not the reactionaryism of our ceo hillbilly president...

    but perhaps you are right - those are all conventional wisdom arguments and sometimes, often in the form of a self fulfilling prophesy, the conventional wisdom is actualy right.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/28/2006 @ 10:09am

  52. Ibble, that is almost all wishful thinking.not that it wouldn't be nice. remember wishful thinking, and ignoring all else, was what got us into Iraq in the first place.

    germany was an empire for a thousand years before it was hundreds of little states, which were gobbled up by prussia.

    germany was divided for only 50 years, a small time span in geo-political time. the beefs the muslims share go back a THOUSAND years

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 10:24am

  53. "so can syrian kurds, iranan kurds...with turkey as their sponsor and protector...whats the problem, other than a lack of imagination?"

    ya gonna send them all to Iraq? or where are they going to have their kurdish state? all those countries gonna give up a large slice of territory? you can see where this is leading. war and more war.

    wars have a tendency to spread beyond their initial borders, and this war is no exception

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 10:27am

  54. FRANKGITS

    Your tendency to speak for all troops is laughable at best, having a realtive there whose own span of influence is maybe 10 Joes at the most; does not qualify one to make definitive statements about hte whole.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 10:28am

  55. Since 9/11 happened it's been 1631 days of freedom for OBL. Old OBL is now 48-49 years old. Is the strategy of bringing him to justice to let him die of old age? Let's face it, how old can you live to when dwelling in a cave and never having a good rasher of bacon?

    OK so that's that guy well sorted out....we showed him right?!

    Zeddman.....check out the cost of special appropriations for Vietnam plus the "standard" defense budget. Versus the standard defense budget plus special appropriations in Iraq.....oh and do it as a percentage of the Federal budget not against GDP since the GDP measurement's over the course of 40 years are not very helpful considering we are in an Information age and were in an industrial age!

    Posted by freedomplease at 02/28/2006 @ 10:33am

  56. if Bush had been in charge in WW2 Tojo would have been sending tapes five years after pearl harbor.

    biggest defense budget ever, and US soldiers are on the sidelines as Iraq explodes in violence. I guess freedom, instead of being on the march, is confined to quarters.

    if they're sitting around over there, why not bring them home, sitting around here is far cheaper, and they may actually be able to contribute something to the safety of america.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 10:41am

  57. JOHANNESROLF

    the sunni arab middle east was the very center of the once glorious, pinnacle-of-civilization caliphate OVER a thousand years ago.

    before germany was divided in 1945, and prior to what, 1870,it was fragmented and weak for centuries, making it the battlefield of europe...a humiliating experience that goes a long way toward explaining their near suicidal bellicoseness (bellicosity???? lol) in the late 19th, early 20th centuries.

    might the nations surrounding a small kurdistan, carved out of iraq, supported by a powerful turkey, not be glad to see an outlet for their own kurdish peples who would chose to relocate?

    if we had something other than a ceo hillbilly ignoramus of a president with some real vision, realistic imagination, and moral authority....if and if and if...

    HA HA HA

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/28/2006 @ 10:55am

  58. Todd,

    Of course with all the above said, anytime we can kill some terrorists (even in Iraq) that's a good day in my book.

    Of course, if you substitute "Americans" for "terrorists", your philosophy is exactly like your worst enemy. Of course they say that people hate that which they fear, and they fear that which is most like them. You're a radical terrorist and you didn't even know it, Todd. Cool, huh?

    Posted by Turk33 at 02/28/2006 @ 10:57am

  59. To kicking-ass Todd and all of the "Stay the Course" subscribers:

    Today's trivia question:

    Which lefty Bush-hater was most likely to have written the following?

    "One can't doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed."

    and in the same editorial:

    "It would not be surprising to learn from an anonymously cited American soldier that he can understand why Saddam Hussein was needed to keep the Sunnis and the Shiites from each others' throats."

    Posted by rain man at 02/28/2006 @ 10:58am

  60. Wouldn't that lefty Bush-hater be William F. Buckley, paragon of liberal hate-speak? But since I'm not kicking-ass Todd and... (one of) the "Stay the Course" subscribers, am I eligible to win? OOOH I hope so, I'll choose the all expense paid vacation to lovely Gitmo!

    Posted by Turk33 at 02/28/2006 @ 11:03am

  61. "might the nations surrounding a small kurdistan, carved out of iraq, supported by a powerful turkey, not be glad to see an outlet for their own kurdish peples who would chose to relocate?"

    what are you? a diplomat at the treaty of Versailles, where the fate of peoples and nation were decided by diplomats at the green table? and whose results are still causing wars.

    also how are you going to fit all those Kurds you mentioned into a small kurdistan? Matternich you ain't.

    you need a dose of real politik, take two and call me in the morning

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 11:08am

  62. Metternich

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 11:08am

  63. how can anyone argue with grr, kill, kill

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 11:10am

  64. how can anyone argue with grr, kill, kill

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 02/28/2006 @ 11:10am

    rolled up newspaper?

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 11:12am

  65. Today's good news item"

    Bush job rating falls to all-time low: poll

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush's job rating has fallen to an all-time low of 34 percent, amid strong opposition to the Dubai Ports World deal and increasing pessimism over the war in Iraq, according to a CBS News poll released on Monday...

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060228/pl_nm/bush_poll_dc

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 11:17am

  66. CPT posts:

    "FRANKGITS

    Your tendency to speak for all troops is laughable at best, having a realtive there whose own span of influence is maybe 10 Joes at the most; does not qualify one to make definitive statements about hte whole."

    _____

    CPT, you do it all the time, pal.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 11:18am

  67. good point

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 11:20am

  68. US troops polled for the first time, 70% want troops out of Iraq.

    the lies are unravelling one by one

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 11:24am

  69. JR

    are you saying that CPT only speaks for thirty percent of the troops?

    (how is that possible)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 11:25am

  70. Turk:

    I'm not in Todd's camp, but was it Buckley?

    Posted by Hman23 at 02/28/2006 @ 11:28am

  71. TURK--

    You are correct sir. But wouldn't you rather redeem your prize for a trip to Baghdad to see all of the lovely things we've done for the Iraqis?

    Posted by rain man at 02/28/2006 @ 11:29am

  72. Wow, Buckley said that?

    That's gotta hurt.

    Posted by Hman23 at 02/28/2006 @ 11:30am

  73. FREEDOMPLEASE:

    Thanks for your post. I figured there was something fishy behind the whole percentage of GDP flap.

    Posted by Hman23 at 02/28/2006 @ 11:31am

  74. Wow, Buckley said that?

    That's gotta hurt.

    Yeah, they were talking about it on This Week With George Stephanoponopopoloolplous...however you spell it. :-P

    And while the all expenses paid trip to lovely downtown Baghdad sounds just dreamy, I think I'll pass. Although I hear it's lovely this time of war...year (courtesy of the FOX travel agents).

    Posted by Turk33 at 02/28/2006 @ 11:56am

  75. Newest Zogby poll coming out, polls the troops in Iraq directly:

    72 PER CENT say all troops should leave Iraq WITHIN A YEAR. 29 per cent say they should all get out immediately.

    But the troops have no say in these matters, do they?

    Maybe they should.

    Apologists, start your engines and explain all of these traitorous, anti-American troops in the field.

    All 72% of them.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 12:01pm

  76. To clarify...

    The 29 % is out of the 72%...

    29% of those troops who want troops out want them out immediately...

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 12:02pm

  77. New Dawn,

    Well I was aware that there were grumblings, but that level of disatisfaction is a big eye opener.

    It would be interesting to see how these numbers of this volunteer army compare with the numbers of the largely conscripted army that fought in Vietnam.

    Could it be that the volunteer army wants out of Iraq more than the conscripted army wanted out of Vietnam?

    Posted by freedomplease at 02/28/2006 @ 12:28pm

  78. Freedom, I think soldiers always want out. also the army in Iraq is partly conscripted.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 12:31pm

  79. CPT can't hide anymore. The truth is out.

    A first-ever survey [tinyurl.com] of U.S. troops on the ground fighting a war overseas has revealed surprising findings, not the least of which is that an overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year.

    Further, a new Le Moyne College/Zogby International survey shows that more than one in four (29%) thought the U.S. should pull its troops immediately.

    The poll, conducted in conjunction with Le Moyne College's Center for Peace and Global Studies, also showed that another 22% of the respondents, serving in various branches of the armed forces, said the U.S. should leave Iraq in the next six months. One in every five troops - 21% - said troops should be out between six and 12 months. Nearly a quarter - 23% - said they should stay "as long as they are needed."

    This, even though the administration's propaganda has been wildly successful in duping them:

    Nearly nine of every 10 - 85% - said the U.S. mission is "to retaliate for Saddam's role in the 9-11 attacks," while 77% said they believe the main or a major reason for the war was "to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq."

    Hitler's propagandists were right- a lie repeated incessantly becomes the truth. But it still hasn't been able to justify to any but the most ignorant that it is anything but the worst policy disater in American history.

    Posted by fromredbird at 02/28/2006 @ 12:38pm

  80. Johanne -

    I think soldiers always want out, too, but those numbers are far from the rosy picture proferred by the misadministration, USC, CPT, and other bullshit artists who refuse to face the facts.

    Even a majority of our own soldiers do not wish to continue their support of this unjustified conflict.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 12:39pm

  81. This, even though the administration's propaganda has been wildly successful in duping them:

    Nearly nine of every 10 - 85% - said the U.S. mission is "to retaliate for Saddam's role in the 9-11 attacks," while 77% said they believe the main or a major reason for the war was "to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq."

    That is fucking disgusting, just repugnant for such horseshit to be swallowed so definitively across the board.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 12:41pm

  82. hey, we're told that something like 40% of americans believe the creationism flim flam. we love the big lie, see advertising SUVs, a big lie if ever there was one.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 1:03pm

  83. 1631 days since 9/11 and we have not bothered to find OBL.

    Two reasons.

    1. It's better that the troops think that Iraq participated 2. Bush admitted in an interview released by Rueter's today that OBL won him the 2004 election.

    We sure showed that guy what it means to mess with the mighty USA!

    Posted by freedomplease at 02/28/2006 @ 1:13pm

  84. It's so nice for Bush to give credit where credit is due.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 1:22pm

  85. Frank -

    90% of the troops and half the American people at home...

    Can't fool all of the people all of the time...?

    Nope. But it only took half of a propagandized, brainwashed country to elect this misadministration...

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 1:35pm

  86. NEW DAWN/FRANKGITS

    ZOGBY?!?!?!? ZOGBY?!?!?!?!?ZOGBY?!?!?!?!

    ZOGBY is a DEMOCRATIC poller, absolutely NO CREDIBILITY!!!!

    The fact that you jump on that is sad.

    72% of Soldiers??? who are the Soldiers? what is their ranks? did he poll only PVT? or E-5 and below???

    You DOLTS a Soldier does not contemplate that question of whether we should be there.

    This is what the SOLDIER hears, "Do you want ot be here in IRAQ with Zip privacy, no girlfriend, no drinking, no movies, no driving your car with the top down, no going out for pizza, not being able to take a shower when you want or to you to be home"

    You ask them this question: "Do you want to leave IRAQ and fail? or Stay a little longer and Win? See what they say then..

    ZOGBY????!?!?!? lololololololololllololool

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 1:40pm

  87. FRANKGITS

    With the Buckley article, all one can say is;

    "When the tough gets going, some people turn tail and run"

    Good for Buckley. he is turned into a coward, better to know now

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 1:41pm

  88. The CBS poll, was inhernetly flawed in its methoedology, the nonly polled 282 REPS as opposed to 482 DEMs.. And yall think that is credible as well?

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 1:44pm

  89. FRANKGITS

    YES he is, HE was at the DLC conference ON the panel

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 1:44pm

  90. CPT's panties are in a bunch. Must have hit a nerve.

    That nasty ol' poll doesn't hold water because Zog is a Democratic poller?

    But all Republican polls do?

    CPT - Are you claiming that any poll not taken by a Republican firm is misrepresentative or an outright lie?

    And sorry, CPT. You lose on this one, pal. 90% of the troops believe they are taking revenge for "Saddam's involvement in 9/11".

    Dolt, indeed.

    And if all of the troops have a problem with "Do you want ot be here in IRAQ with Zip privacy, no girlfriend, no drinking, no movies, no driving your car with the top down, no going out for pizza, not being able to take a shower when you want or to you to be home" then why the fuck did they join the military?

    Or are you admitting that military advertising paints a rosier picture than the reality they can expect after joining?

    You're silly.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 1:45pm

  91. FRANGITS

    YES

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 1:45pm

  92. NEW DAWN

    And you are stupid, little girl, you have not context for understanding, sorry thats your problem

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 1:46pm

  93. NEW DAWN

    You cannot stand it that your poll that you put so much faith in is flawed

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 1:47pm

  94. good posts Frankgrits.

    "The killer insurgents are not entitled to blow up the shrine of American idealism"

    I find it so interesting that it took the 9/11 attacks to expose american idealism as the false god that it is. one attack, and the american people are willing to jettison constitution and any kind of moral high ground, allow the so called pres to usurp powers, sanction torture and kidnapping etc.

    methinks that american idealism is like civilisation, merely a thin veneer

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 1:49pm

  95. FRANKGITS

    I would put anyone in that corner, who started a fight with me at my side and then, when things get rough, runs away.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 1:50pm

  96. NEW DAWN

    And you are stupid, little girl, you have not context for understanding, sorry thats your problem

    Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 1:46pm | ignore this person

    Bwaahahahaaaaa! All male here, pal, so gobble this.

    If I were female, your response would beg the question, "Do you always go around calling women "little girl" and calling them stupid?

    And did you by chance intend to type "you have understanding of context" instead of the mangled syntax you actually used? I think you were trying to insult my intelligence, but with such a poor attempt at the English language, I think you actually shot yourself... in the face.

    I notice you didn't actually answer a single one of my questions.

    Just started insulting me and dodging...

    For a big, bad, military boy, you are quite a puss.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 1:56pm

  97. "you have no understanding of context"

    MY bad.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 1:56pm

  98. FRANKGITS

    Surely, Howard Dean was chairing it, along with the usual suspects of Donna Brazille, it was on C-SPan a few months back, he actually spoke and addressed them

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 1:57pm

  99. Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 1:40pm | ignore this person

    LOL

    Posted by seattlescribe at 02/28/2006 @ 1:59pm

  100. FRANKGITS

    Medals of Honor have been won in the face of TACTICAL retreats, not STRATEGIC ones

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 1:59pm

  101. "When the tough gets going, some people turn tail and run"

    Good for Buckley. he is turned into a coward, better to know now

    Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 1:41pm

    You people who continue to defend your hero at any cost are showing your complete disdain for reason. I'm not a big WFB fan, but his words mean something to true conservatives. CPT, I guess you probably prefer the rantings of radio lunatics to real discourse--it's a whole lot easier than putting on the thinking cap and asking honest questions.

    Posted by rain man at 02/28/2006 @ 2:00pm

  102. NEW DAWN

    Simply because your questions were ridiculous

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 2:00pm

  103. CPT - You are just now discovering Buckley is against Mr. Bush's Iraq adventure? Where have you been?

    Do you understand the differences between the neocons and movement, old line, or whatever else you want to call them conservatives?

    Posted by seattlescribe at 02/28/2006 @ 2:00pm

  104. FRANKGITS

    ???????

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 2:01pm

  105. MacArther

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 2:02pm

  106. FRANKGITS

    Quick name me how many Soldier your son has under him? SSG? 1 minute now

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 2:02pm

  107. Hey, military puss-boy.

    You still didn't answer my "ridiculous" questions.

    Anyone else find these questions "ridiculous" or do you have to have an IQ as low as Leslie's (CPT) to think so? CPT - Are you claiming that any poll not taken by a Republican firm is misrepresentative or an outright lie?

    90% of the troops in Iraq believe they are taking revenge for "Saddam's involvement in 9/11". Was Saddam involved in 9/11, CPT?

    And if all of the troops have a problem with "Do you want ot be here in IRAQ with Zip privacy, no girlfriend, no drinking, no movies, no driving your car with the top down, no going out for pizza, not being able to take a shower when you want or to you to be home" then why the fuck did they join the military?

    Are you admitting that military advertising paints a rosier picture than the reality they can expect after joining?

    Come on, misogynist tough guy who calls women "little girls" and "stupid" because they don't agree with you.

    Let's hear some more of your unimpeachable wisdom. Enlighten us.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 2:04pm

  108. It's MacArthur, genius.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 2:05pm

  109. New Dawn,

    "But the troops have no say in these matters, do they?"

    No, they don't, just like Bush doesn't give a crap about your opinion on whether we should retreat, stay or invade Iran.

    Todd

    Posted by Oksportsguy at 02/28/2006 @ 2:06pm

  110. http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075

    The survey included 944 military respondents interviewed at several undisclosed locations throughout Iraq. The names of the specific locations and specific personnel who conducted the survey are being withheld for security purposes. Surveys were conducted face-to-face using random sampling techniques. The margin of error for the survey, conducted Jan. 18 through Feb. 14, 2006, is +/- 3.3 percentage points.

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 2:09pm

  111. Frank,

    "Your kids should be reaching military service age just about the time we are ready to invade Saudi Arabia. Will you sign the papers?"

    I already have...My oldest is joining the marines as soon as he graduates high school.

    Any other questions?

    I'll quote myself from several months ago:

    The difference between a core conviction and a suggestion is one's willingness to die (or let those that he loves die) for the former.

    Todd

    Posted by Oksportsguy at 02/28/2006 @ 2:09pm

  112. Todd, newsflash:

    George Bush doesn't care about your opinion either unless you agree with him in lockstep without thinking for yourself.

    Oh, wait, you do agree with him in lockstep.

    Never mind.

    And we weren't discussing Iran.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 2:09pm

  113. Frank, I think he tells them they can enlist and then tells them they can stay out of Iraq and keep their privacy, still see their girlfriend, drink, go to movies, continue driving their car around with the top down, go out for pizza, take a shower and go home when they want to...

    Just guessing.

    The commercials make it look so exciting, don't they!?

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 2:14pm

  114. NEW DAWN

    I cannot enlighten you, people like you are 100% assured of absolute rightness.

    SADDAM didnt participate in 911, but more than likely he was terror base, two terror training camps found in his country and ONE with DEFINITIVE ties to AQ.

    I am claiming any poll done by ZOGBY to be skewed toward leaning DEM, who did he poll, what were their ranks?

    That what Soldier hear whenever you ask them about the war, we all want to be home, no shit, 72% say pull out in a year? why not now , if they are so against the war? as many here are trying to paint it.

    Rosy picture? what are you talking about? Anyone who joins, that does not know what the Army is all about, would not be qualified to join. they would have a PUHLES of 111113. Which simply means that they would be too stupid to be allowed to join.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 2:14pm

  115. Supreme Court rules against abortion clinics [msnbc.msn.com]

    Todd

    Posted by OKSPORTSGUY 02/28/2006 @ 1:46pm | ignore this person

    You must be so happy, Todd. Pro-lifers can still scream "baby-killer!" at young girls seeking help and medical care.

    So, as a homophobe, do you also support the protesters at the military funerals screaming at people trying to privately mourn, that God is killing U.S. soldiers to punish the world for allowing homosexuality?

    http://www.startribune.com/462/story/266514.html

    Posted by NEW DAWN 02/28/2006 @ 1:51pm | ignore this person

    Todd? Todd? Ohhh, Tooooood?

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 2:14pm

  116. "Todd, He should be in the Marines just in time for the big pull-out."

    And if that happens, which is possible but I don't think plausible, man will he be PISSED!

    todd

    Posted by Oksportsguy at 02/28/2006 @ 2:14pm

  117. CPT

    Weren't you the guy quoting Family Research Council "studies" as the definitive proof that hetero marriages are the best for kids when the studies didn't even include same sex couples?

    I really don't think that you are the best mind in the room to critique research or polling

    (and Zogby has been pretty dead on balls accurate with campaign polling)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 2:15pm

  118. New Dawn,

    "Todd? Todd? Ohhh, Tooooood?"

    Free speach, you are free to sound like an ass and offend people if you want too = )

    I'm sure I offend you don't I?

    You see? Free speach works!

    Todd

    Posted by Oksportsguy at 02/28/2006 @ 2:16pm

  119. FRANKGITS

    "Lesile" thats not my name old man. I know you love to bait and slink away, but come on you can do better? My 4 year old can do better.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 2:16pm

  120. That's "speech", genius.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 2:17pm

  121. I'm sure I offend you don't I?

    Posted by OKSPORTSGUY 02/28/2006 @ 2:16pm

    Offend!? Todd-bot, you're the blog joke.

    Ha Ha Ha Ha

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 2:18pm

  122. Todd posts -

    "Free speach, you are free to sound like an ass and offend people if you want too = )

    I'm sure I offend you don't I?"

    Yes, because you're an ass and offensive.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 2:18pm

  123. WILL C.

    I actually ceded your point on the reserach council, however there is story on National Review on the subject, its pretty good.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 2:19pm

  124. CPT posts:

    "Rosy picture? what are you talking about? Anyone who joins, that does not know what the Army is all about, would not be qualified to join. they would have a PUHLES of 111113. Which simply means that they would be too stupid to be allowed to join."

    Guess CPT doesn't own a television and has never seen a military commercial.

    (I highly recommend them, they're pretty good - not entirely honest, but pretty good)

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 2:20pm

  125. FRANKGITS

    How old are you 12? do you really have a SON in Iraq? or is it just someone you know? Do you live by yourself? just a hunch?

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 2:20pm

  126. NEW DAWN

    Take that argument and turn it back on yourself, everyone KNOWS what the Army is about, the commereicals simply tell you another aspect not as well known

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 2:22pm

  127. from this germanic mind, Todd is named appropriately, he should be called Todd, the death guy

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 2:24pm

  128. NEW DAWN

    Take that argument and turn it back on yourself, everyone KNOWS what the Army is about, the commereicals simply tell you another aspect not as well known

    Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 2:22pm | ignore this person

    CPT, take your argument and turn it back on yourself. If the troops KNOW what's going on, then why don't their opinions matter? And why do 90% of them have the info wrong and believe that Saddam had a hand in 9/11?

    Because your president and misadministration Goebbels-lied them into believing it.

    Jesus, CPT, if intelligence is a prerequisite for joining the service, how'd you slip by?

    Slip someone a couple of bucks? Gobble a recruiter so he'd overlook your poor marks in high school?

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 2:24pm

  129. Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 2:19pm

    Sorry your not getting me to read the National Review. The last time I read it Kate O'Bern was bitching that the real reason a public college education cost so much was because too many kids took six years to finish instead of four.

    of course she didn't taking into account that kids at public colleges also tend to work for a living cause dad don't have the keys to the golden palace

    (it just never crossed her mind)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 2:26pm

  130. the army is down to accepting halfwits and criminals.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 2:26pm

  131. BWAHAHahahahaahaahaahahaaaa

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 2:27pm

  132. What happened to Todd-bot?

    A really hope he comes back and trys to offend us some more

    Ha Ha Ha Ha

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 2:30pm

  133. CPT -

    Continuing to be demeaning and rude to Frank, and by proxy, to his son in the military, is beneath even you.

    You're repugnant.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 2:31pm

  134. It's so fun reading the sputterings and flailings of those whose belief structure is crumbling around them. Captain and the Sportsguy (sounds like gay porn - not that there's anything wrong with that!) are using every Koolade Klub trick in the Koolade Klub handbook in a futile attempt to respond to the questions and points on the this blog. And personally, I'm not offended, I feel pity for America that people like you are in charge. With any luck, the American masses will wake up and realize that you jokers are anachronistic losers with nothing but hate and fear filling your heads. You aren't important or credible enough to offend me. Sorry to ruin your fun or overinflated sense of importance.

    Posted by Turk33 at 02/28/2006 @ 2:31pm

  135. What happened to Todd-bot?

    A really hope he comes back and trys to offend us some more

    Ha Ha Ha Ha

    Posted by WILL C. 02/28/2006 @ 2:30pm | ignore this person

    I think he's headed off to spit on a young pregnant girl and then tell his good Christian wife to shut up and fix him a sandwich.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 2:32pm

  136. New Dawn,

    "Yes, because you're an ass and offensive. "

    I love you too Dawn = )

    Todd

    Posted by Oksportsguy at 02/28/2006 @ 2:34pm

  137. Yeah, that's the route you used the other day when you also ran out of responses, Todd.

    Everyone knows what you are.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 2:36pm

  138. He's Back

    Ha Ha Ha Ha

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 2:36pm

  139. Hey, Will.

    Go watch this for me and tell me what you think:

    http://movies.lionhead.com/movie/59257

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 2:38pm

  140. Hey, CPT, you need to decide what your argument is. Before, you said the opinion of Americans at home wasn't a reliable gauge of how the Iraq war is going, only the troops on the ground had all the facts. So now that we have a poll of the troops on the ground . . .

    Three quarters of the troops had served multiple tours and had a longer exposure to the conflict: 26% were on their first tour of duty, 45% were on their second tour, and 29% were in Iraq for a third time or more.

    . . . you say it's not a reliable gauge of opinion about the war. If the opinion of these troops isn't reliable what is- the opinions of that jackanape draft dodger in the White House? If you ask me you're the one that doesn't have enough smarts to be in the military. And you're the one giving the test to new recruits?

    Quite clearly, the last thing you have an interest in is the national interests and wellbeing of the United States of America. That should automatically disqualify you from military service in America's armed forces.

    Posted by fromredbird at 02/28/2006 @ 2:40pm

  141. Hmm.. Looks like a documentary. The only thing it's missing is Jeff Gannon and the gay porn/lincoln bedroom segment.

    but they'll probably hit that in one of the sequels

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 2:46pm

  142. Will -

    That was mine. Notice the screen name?

    Thanks for the Gannon thought, though. I may have to write a script for that...

    Lovely how this administration writes the scripts for me...

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 2:48pm

  143. Metternich

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 02/28/2006 @ 11:08am | ignore this person

    at least metternich had a vision - does condy?

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/28/2006 @ 2:56pm

  144. Great Caesar's ghost!

    CPT and Todd, the Death Guy, are back dropping knowledge in a unified, idiotic effort. What a truly lethal confluence of wasted life and corroded wit, not to mention a combined personality that pales in comparison to that of my penis. The ass-patrol is back in action and still stuck on stupid!

    I've missed you CPT, Royal Bevo-Officer, grand pioneer to make it into the army as a halfwit/delinquent before they officially and ceremoniously opened the doors to your sorry kind. I'm frightened to hear that you have kids. I guess we can assume that they, like you, will be ruined and wasted, poisoned by that all-too-common plague I like to call American Ignorance. Are you teaching them to bring the Quran to the toilet like a good soldierboy?

    Posted by chimichenga at 02/28/2006 @ 2:57pm

  145. TODD--

    The fact that you raised your child such that he will be pissed if he doesn't get a chance to kill someone speaks volumes about the quality of your faith.

    CPT:

    Is there a conceivable point at which you would admit failure in Iraq (as some real conservatives already have)?

    Posted by rain man at 02/28/2006 @ 2:57pm

  146. Cpt and Todd are in denial. If they come to the realization that everything they have been told is untrue, they will kill themselves. The truth is just too hard to bear for them. I'm going to pray that the ignorance and hate that is in their hearts will melt away. Wake up, boys. GWB is not the leader? he was made out to be. Get over it and vote with your minds and not your fear-filled hearts next time.

    Posted by k330k at 02/28/2006 @ 3:02pm

  147. Posted by NEW DAWN 02/28/2006 @ 2:48pm

    Yes I did. And I liked it. My only recommendation is in future use the theme to the Benny Hill Show instead of the sinister music in the background. Because this administration is becoming a late night comedy act.

    :)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 3:03pm

  148. Ibble, Condi is a left over from the cold war, she is a soviet expert, too bad the soviet union has ceased to exist.

    I appreciate your ideas, as impossible they might be, they offer a starting point for discussion and thought

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 3:17pm

  149. "GWB is not the leader?"

    Uhm nope, in fact he is the president of the United States. The same one that sent troops into Iraq and Afghanistan. He is leading the country, regardless of whether or not you like the direction he is leading us in.

    Todd

    Posted by Oksportsguy at 02/28/2006 @ 3:17pm

  150. so Todd

    Back to state the obvious with conviction, I see.

    (you just can't pull the wool over that boys eyes)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 3:24pm

  151. CPT:

    Almost 1000 troops serving in Iraq were polled. The methodology was described (Will C. even posted it again for you).

    So, if you want to persuade anyone that the poll is "FLAWED" you'll have to do a bit more to rebut than yell, "IT'S FLAWED!" and give some kind of reasoning or basis of knowledge for your argument that the opposite is true.

    Posted by Hman23 at 02/28/2006 @ 3:25pm

  152. Will -

    I'd add comedy music if it wasn't scary that I can't find the voice to laugh with...

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 3:30pm

  153. You say leader/president. I say presidential fuck-up. If you follow/support a fuck-up, does that make you a fuck-up as well?

    Posted by k330k at 02/28/2006 @ 3:31pm

  154. Side note: Peter Rothberg needs to change his website photo on " The Nation". I always think that he is high as hell or just tired. Which one is it Peter? Come on, you can tell me. It'll just be between me and you.

    Posted by k330k at 02/28/2006 @ 3:34pm

  155. Posted by NEW DAWN 02/28/2006 @ 3:30pm

    Fear adds to their power.

    Laughter sucks the life out of them.

    Wanna Win... laugh

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 3:35pm

  156. Posted by K330K 02/28/2006 @ 3:34pm

    Ahh.. you noticed that too

    I'm guesing that right before the photo was taken Peter smoked a fat one rolled from a bud of White Widow.

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 3:38pm

  157. Does anyone else feel immensely sad for Todd's son? I mean, talk about missing out on the American Dream. (They do still advertise this fantasy up there, right?) I can see if the kid has inherited his father's foolishness and lives in utter hell (which is surely possible) and has only the army to save him from the misery of living in a den of imbecility ruled by Todd, Hero of the Unlettererd, but if the kid has even the slightest iota of intelligence, he'd place his eggs in another basket and tell his doltish dad what a jackass he is, in unison with everyone here.

    I often wonder who the hell these people are who actually raise their children to be soldiers, as if that's some great calling which demands the best minds the country has to offer. Well, I guess they're in Todd's town, where you go off to the army once you finish up your four years skipping high school, getting your name in the police blotter while the winners make the honor roll. Yes, it must be sad when your dad, aka, OKSPORTSGUY, comes to the realization that his ingenious plan of beating his son into becoming a pro athlete fails and brings a brooding reality over the motor home: time to steer this reject towards the armed forces, where they turn white trash into licensed torturers and killers and give them medals for the effort. Yes. I can still salvage my ill-born pride and boast to my other drunken, shirtless buddies how my delinquent son made the grade and is currently perfecting his skills as a diplomat in the cells of Abu Ghraib...

    Posted by chimichenga at 02/28/2006 @ 3:41pm

  158. "If you follow/support a fuck-up, does that make you a fuck-up as well?"

    Well firstly, I won't bite on your question until we come to a clear consensus on your premise that Bush is a ****-up.

    I think he has done many things wrong, but my guess is that we think he has done things wrong from differing points of view.

    I don't think he has been tough enough on the War on Terror. I think he is cowering in to the panzy dems on too many issues.

    I think he should have closed our boarders and kicked out all illegal immigrants years ago.

    I think he should have done what he said when he was pandering for my vote and try to get a national amendment to the U.S. constitution that defines marriage as a union of one man and one woman.

    So yes, he has ****-up, however I'm guess your version of ****-up and my version are very different in deffinition.

    Todd

    Posted by Oksportsguy at 02/28/2006 @ 3:41pm

  159. FRANKGITS

    How old are you 12? do you really have a SON in Iraq? or is it just someone you know? Do you live by yourself? just a hunch?

    Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 2:20pm

    Now if that isn't the sign of someone ready to go home and lick his chops, what is? Pretty soon he's going to stamp his feet, start crying, and beat his tiny rhetorical fists against our chests.

    What's your branch, CPT, Army or Marines? And, does CPT stand for "Captain"?

    Posted by fromredbird at 02/28/2006 @ 3:42pm

  160. Chemi,

    Ad-hominem attacks are the first sign of a weak argument = )

    Yours must really suck.

    Todd

    Posted by Oksportsguy at 02/28/2006 @ 3:44pm

  161. I don't think he has been tough enough on the War on Terror. I think he is cowering in to the panzy dems on too many issues.

    Posted by OKSPORTSGUY 02/28/2006 @ 3:41pm

    Damn Todd, you guys control everything and you're still blaming the democrats for your fuck ups.

    I don't think the term "Mindless Tool" actually does you justice. We'll have to think of a new one.

    Does anyone care to throw a suggetion or two in to the hat?

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 3:45pm

  162. Ad-hominem attacks are the first sign of a weak argument = )

    Yours must really suck.

    Posted by OKSPORTSGUY 02/28/2006 @ 3:44pm

    Unless he's just calling a tree a tree

    Then it's not really an ad homonym attack

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 3:48pm

  163. Side note: Peter Rothberg needs to change his website photo on " The Nation". I always think that he is high as hell or just tired. Which one is it Peter? Come on, you can tell me. It'll just be between me and you.

    Posted by K330K 02/28/2006 @ 3:34pm

    He's in New York. If you were getting as much as he is, you'd look tired, too.

    Posted by fromredbird at 02/28/2006 @ 3:49pm

  164. Every time he doesn't have an answer, Todd either posts, "I love you" or this:

    "Ad-hominem attacks are the first sign of a weak argument = )

    Yours must really suck."

    Talk about the pot calling the kettle...

    You know, Will, you're right, laughing at Todd does feel better.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 3:51pm

  165. Todd cracks me up

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 3:52pm

  166. 1631 days this Misastration has had to show OBL a little of his own street justice.

    1631 fuck ups is all we've had.

    Posted by freedomplease at 02/28/2006 @ 3:53pm

  167. like they said on Bugs bunny... what a marroon

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 3:53pm

  168. Todd. You're only realizing this now. He misrepresented his platform during the first term. NOW you realize he misled you on the issues he campaigned on. Well, it's about time. Too bad it's too late. He's already occupied office for way too long ( GOD, please make the hurting stop). Yes, we are on opposite sides but a fuck-up he is no matter what side of the aisle you allign yourself with. The fog may be lifting from your eyes yet. Prayer does work people.

    Posted by k330k at 02/28/2006 @ 3:54pm

  169. Many of you have a unique and selective double standerd; you pounce on anyone who does not share your uber-liberal fantasyland; yet you claim to have some sembalance of decency when someone choses to respond back to an attack; oh no is the cry, how could you?

    If you guys live in glass houses, then do not throw stones, NEW DAWN.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 3:54pm

  170. Goodbye ya'll. I've enjoyed you all thoroughly once more. I hate to go home but I got to get the hell outta here.

    Posted by k330k at 02/28/2006 @ 3:55pm

  171. you pounce on anyone who does not share your uber-liberal fantasyland;

    Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 3:54pm

    But CPT, you share our uber-liberal fantasy land. You're here right?

    We pounce on you all the time

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 3:58pm

  172. CPT -

    You ain't heard me crying about it. I just fight back. Sorry if my thinking for myself upsets you, military puss-boy.

    You, on the other hand just fall to a party line and spout brainwashed-speak. You attack anyone who doesn't support every military act, no matter if it's decent or human or not, no matter how many are against it.

    Care to insult some more women on the board? Call them "little girls"? "Stupid", perhaps?

    Some tough guy. I laugh at you, CPT.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 4:00pm

  173. TODD,

    It doesn't matter what you say here anymore - your horrible grammar skills continue to indict you as the drop-out douchebag you are. How cute that you spell fuck ****, then spell everything else about as well as the illegal and often illiterate immigrants you'd like to chase out of your country. Damn, English isn't even their native tongue, yet they can read and write at your level, if not better. At least your kid is going to finish high school. Obviously, you couldn't even accomplish that.

    Posted by chimichenga at 02/28/2006 @ 4:00pm

  174. And CPT -

    What have I ever posted that was "uber-libeal fantasyland"?

    Are you hallucinating or just stupid?

    Both? I'm guessing both...

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 4:01pm

  175. liberal

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 4:02pm

  176. yes I am thank you

    :)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 4:03pm

  177. CPT,

    Did you ever get that cd?

    Posted by chimichenga at 02/28/2006 @ 4:03pm

  178. HMAN

    The way everyone is trying to read the ZOGBY poll is that 72% of them want out within the year. Does that mean they are against the war? Hardly for if they were they would want out now, not a year from now.

    Now I chose NOT to believe a ZOGBY poll, he also predicted kerry the winner as i recall. Whom did he poll? Which Soldiers? Combat or noncombat job Soldiers? What were their ranks? enlisted? officers? what were their positions? foot soldiers or commanders?

    If Zogby talked to SOLELY joes, than his findings are flawed. Joe does NOT think strategically, big picture stuff, not because hs is unable to do so, its is because Joe is too busy looking at his area of operations, or in "his lane."

    You may ask Joe if he wants to be in Iraq; but he does not think of that question in terms of the reasons for the invasion or current national policy, he hears would you rather be here or at home with your girlfriend at the beach or lake and drinking a beer.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:06pm

  179. Chimichenga

    Which CD? you mean C Ds nuts? I used that when i was 14, look bud in this country that went out of style a long time ago.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:07pm

  180. WILL c

    You all just think you do, you dont really pounce on anything, i come here to see how deluded you guys get, its inspirational

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:09pm

  181. But can you blame me for trying? Shouldn't you be done work by now and hanging with the guys down at the Blue Oyster?

    Posted by chimichenga at 02/28/2006 @ 4:09pm

  182. NEW DAWN

    WTF are you talking about? I attack me, i fight back, who is the pussy? me thinks you, home slice.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:10pm

  183. You may ask Joe if he wants to be in Iraq; but he does not think of that question in terms of the reasons for the invasion or current national policy, he hears would you rather be here or at home with your girlfriend at the beach or lake and drinking a beer.

    Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 4:06pm

    That has got to be one of the most condescending statements I've heard about enlisted men.

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 4:10pm

  184. NEW DAWN

    Never claimed to be a "tough guy", I wouldnt, especially not here, who is anyone on a thread, qualified to judge how tough one is.

    I know my internal mettle, thats enough

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:12pm

  185. WILL C

    No its not, there is a large amount of truth in it, and you know it

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:13pm

  186. CPT,

    Last I heard from you, I remember you mentioning something about heading back to the sandbox. Is it true? Better make sure they get a big enough coffin ready to hold what's left of your big brain and bigger balls. But don't worry, somewhere someone will refer to you as a hero before pausing for a commercial break.

    Posted by chimichenga at 02/28/2006 @ 4:13pm

  187. Chim

    Yes but not for while, so you are stuck with me until then

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:13pm

  188. You all just think you do, you dont really pounce on anything, i come here to see how deluded you guys get, its inspirational

    Posted by CPT02/28/2006 @ 4:09pm

    Well CPT, pounce was your term as I recall. You really shouldn't talk shit about yourself that way. It's very self loathing.

    (And if you're no too delusional, I could point out where you used it)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 4:14pm

  189. WILL C

    Dont take that too personal, alot gets lost on the thread, tone for one thing.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:15pm

  190. No its not, there is a large amount of truth in it, and you know it

    Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 4:13pm

    Bullshit, you just said Joes can't understand the things you do cause your an "occifer".

    Trust me CPT, if they were that dumb we never would have made it out of Kuwait

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 4:16pm

  191. New DAWN

    Forgive me, shoud read, You attack me

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:17pm

  192. WILL C

    Dont take that too personal, alot gets lost on the thread, tone for one thing.

    Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 4:15pm

    Why would I take it personal when you call yourself delusional?

    It's like the truth behind fight club

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 4:17pm

  193. WILL C

    Re-read that whole post, and not just cherry pick stuff out of context

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:18pm

  194. NEW DAWN

    WTF are you talking about? I attack me, i fight back, who is the pussy? me thinks you, home slice.

    Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 4:10pm | ignore this person

    "Home slice"? BwahahahaahaaaaaHAHahahaaha

    You're a joke, CPT. Grow up.

    And I called you a puss because you attacked me when you thought I was a woman. Attacking women makes you quite a puss, in my book. Subjugating them, does, too, so it's no wonder you and Todd think a lot alike.

    And again, what have I ever posted that was "uber-liberal fantasyland", CPT?

    Enlighten me.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 4:18pm

  195. I read the post CPT. Don't try to slime your way out of the charge. And It's the second time you put down enlisted guys on this thread.

    I let it slide the first time.

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 4:19pm

  196. HMAN

    The way everyone is trying to read the ZOGBY poll is that 72% of them want out within the year. Does that mean they are against the war? Hardly for if they were they would want out now, not a year from now.

    Now I chose NOT to believe a ZOGBY poll, he also predicted kerry the winner as i recall. Whom did he poll? Which Soldiers? Combat or noncombat job Soldiers? What were their ranks? enlisted? officers? what were their positions? foot soldiers or commanders?

    If Zogby talked to SOLELY joes, than his findings are flawed. Joe does NOT think strategically, big picture stuff, not because hs is unable to do so, its is because Joe is too busy looking at his area of operations, or in "his lane."

    You may ask Joe if he wants to be in Iraq; but he does not think of that question in terms of the reasons for the invasion or current national policy, he hears would you rather be here or at home with your girlfriend at the beach or lake and drinking a beer.

    Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 4:06pm | ignore this person

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:20pm

  197. Will

    That last post was for you, look in bold

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:21pm

  198. Bush's poll numbers are below his european shoe size, coming soon: below his american shoe size. now our Tories will scream, who reads polls, but I know who: the Tories up for election '06.

    I look forward to when they dump that walking disaster. and they will

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/28/2006 @ 4:22pm

  199. Boy CPT,

    If ever someone was ready to become a cop, it's you. You got the big enough chip on your shoulder, the stupidity, the desire to give orders to people more retarded than you while believing everything those less retarded tell you, the need for a powertrip, no matter how phony or absurd, and you truly have the mindset of one who gets off on being a cog in some moronic heirarchy where pins and patches make you think you're some kind of starred Sneetch.

    Posted by chimichenga at 02/28/2006 @ 4:22pm

  200. CPT -

    Ah, poor you. I "attacked you", eh?

    Yeah, right. Here's how things actually went down.

    I posted:

    "CPT's panties are in a bunch. Must have hit a nerve.

    That nasty ol' poll doesn't hold water because Zog is a Democratic poller?

    But all Republican polls do?

    CPT - Are you claiming that any poll not taken by a Republican firm is misrepresentative or an outright lie?

    And sorry, CPT. You lose on this one, pal. 90% of the troops believe they are taking revenge for "Saddam's involvement in 9/11".

    Dolt, indeed.

    And if all of the troops have a problem with "Do you want ot be here in IRAQ with Zip privacy, no girlfriend, no drinking, no movies, no driving your car with the top down, no going out for pizza, not being able to take a shower when you want or to you to be home" then why the fuck did they join the military?

    Or are you admitting that military advertising paints a rosier picture than the reality they can expect after joining?

    You're silly."

    Some vicious attack there. You got pretty thin skin for a military boy.

    As I recall, you responded:

    "And you are stupid, little girl, you have not context for understanding, sorry thats your problem."

    CPT = joke.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 4:22pm

  201. NEW DAWN

    Have you seen how some "women" on this thread talk? Far from lady like. They have said some equally vicicous things, so equal opprotunity being something I believe in, i do not mind giving to them what they feel free to give to those who do not tow their ideaological line.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:24pm

  202. cpt, they do get to go out for pizza. we pay halliburton $20.00 for the 3 slices they eat, too.

    Posted by loveloki at 02/28/2006 @ 4:26pm

  203. "i do not mind giving to them [women] what they feel free to give to those who do not tow their ideaological line."

    CPT -

    You shit on everyone, male or female, who doesn't follow your idealogical line.

    Yes, you are an equal-opportunity shitter, I'll give you that.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 4:28pm

  204. NEW DAWN

    Thin- skinned???

    No you do not understand at all, i do NOT get offended for myself, far from it, I am not defending my honor, oh no, I defend those whom i have known personally, who have given so much of themselves and in some cases their lives, like PFC Fuller and ONeal and LTC Smart, these are guys whom I know what they felt about their mission and their service.

    I will not allow others to willfully demean that service or sacrifice without commenting

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:28pm

  205. Will

    That last post was for you, look in bold

    Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 4:21pm

    Yeah I read that CPT, And if your doing you're job, then you should be briefing them on the big picture stuff. But lets just say you don't, because you know.. you're CPT. They have internet access, they phone home, they watch the news, read news papers and compile all that information together with their "lanes eye veiw" and are quite capable of making an informed decision on how to answer any question asked by Zogby.

    They are not a bunch of homesick school boys.

    So stop putting them down CPT. Because trust me Buddy, you ain't the gatekeeper to shit.

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 4:29pm

  206. CPT -

    Do you listen to yourself???

    You have repeatedly stressed to us stupid liberals that the grunts are dumb and uninformed, and aren't really there to protect anything or do anything brave - they just sit around wishing they could go home.

    Unreal.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 4:30pm

  207. NEW DAWN

    So deal with it, I will attack and comment on whomever wishes to speak harshly about those with whom I have served and the mission wfor which they so believed in.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:30pm

  208. I've never attacked anyone under your command or "with whom you serve", CPT.

    They've never said anything as ignorant to me as you have.

    And again, for the third time, name one post I have ever posted that was "uber-liberal fantasyland".

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 4:33pm

  209. WILL C/NEW DAWN

    Then you are delibrately mischaracterizing my statements.

    Said nothing of the kind, only in your mind, in which you chose to think the worst.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:33pm

  210. NEW DAWN

    I have been fairly clear, especially in my more recent post.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:35pm

  211. LOVELOKI

    No its only $15.00 a slice, there is a discount in theater

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 4:36pm

  212. We're not mischaracterizing anything CPT

    You did what all conservatives do, first you pounced on the source (Zogby) then you went after the troops (Cleland, Kerry, McCain, Murtha, an now the enlisted guys in Iraq)

    I don't know why anybody would follow you people.

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 4:37pm

  213. $20.00/per plate, per meal is what kbr--halliburton is charging us for food.

    Posted by loveloki at 02/28/2006 @ 4:37pm

  214. and the best part is you did all that and haven't read the poll

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 4:38pm

  215. CPT -

    I've been clear in all of my posts. I haven't done any of the things you've accused me of, oether, and you can't back up any of your accusations that I have.

    - never attacked the soldiers - never mischaracterized anything you said, and reposted your own comments to prove it - never written a post that was "uber-liberal fantasyland"

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 4:39pm

  216. The poll stands.

    American troops want out, no matter why.

    Now, let's support our troops and start bringing them home.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 4:40pm

  217. and cpt, regarding your explanation of why it is ok to refer to women as little girls--if u don't like something i said or some way i talked, then address that to me ok? not all of the women on this thread.

    Posted by loveloki at 02/28/2006 @ 4:43pm

  218. Yes, do bring the troops home. But leave CPT to rot in a cell somewhere as a human ashtray in the Middle East with a glowstick shoved up his sorry ass.

    Posted by chimichenga at 02/28/2006 @ 4:43pm

  219. cpt, have you ever been in a war?

    Posted by loveloki at 02/28/2006 @ 4:44pm

  220. Loki -

    Had no idea you were a woman!!!

    And your sex has never mattered to me when it comes to discussing politics...

    (except for the ol' choice debate, which, in a "uber-liberal fantasyland", would start and end with women in control of their own bodies)...

    I'll try not to let your girl-parts cloud my mind when chatting with you, Loki!!

    LOL

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 4:46pm

  221. Dawn

    See... that was fun

    :)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 4:46pm

  222. thanks.

    Posted by loveloki at 02/28/2006 @ 4:46pm

  223. Hee hee.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 4:56pm

  224. :)

    Posted by loveloki at 02/28/2006 @ 4:57pm

  225. You crazy american.. now let go eat burger and fry at drive through

    Ha Ha Ha Ha

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 4:58pm

  226. dawn, did u see the scarey movie, yet? ha ha ha

    Posted by loveloki at 02/28/2006 @ 4:59pm

  227. so will, do u know if cpt has ever been in a war?

    Posted by loveloki at 02/28/2006 @ 5:00pm

  228. he says he has

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 5:00pm

  229. WILL

    Come on bud, you have consistently mischaracterize statements from conservative posters.

    I have not gone after the troops, but and never attacked Cleland.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 5:01pm

  230. Which movie, Loki?

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 5:02pm

  231. I gotta go out for a while

    see yous guys later

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 5:02pm

  232. LOVELOKI

    Of course, I have not meant to sterotype all ladies on this site, merely obscene ones

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 5:03pm

  233. LOVELOKI

    War?

    Why do ask? The answer is yes.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 5:05pm

  234. dawn, ha ha ha america.

    http://festival.sundance.org/2006/watch/film.aspx?which=402&category=DOC

    Posted by loveloki at 02/28/2006 @ 5:05pm

  235. Loki -

    Don't be fooled.

    He immediately called me "little girl" and "stupid" when he thought I was a woman.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 5:05pm

  236. cpt, curious.

    Posted by loveloki at 02/28/2006 @ 5:05pm

  237. Will do, Loki. Don't want to run that from work, though.

    Brownshirt IT department! ;)

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 5:06pm

  238. CHIMICH..

    You still pissed at me because some Soldier kicked your ass or stole your girlfriend, dont project on to me, its not my fault

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 5:06pm

  239. ibbleblibble brought it to our attention the other day. u must see it. it is just a sundance film so maybe they won't be bothered by it where u work. i think it's about 10 minutes long.

    Posted by loveloki at 02/28/2006 @ 5:07pm

  240. Loki -

    I'm on thin ice just posting here! Playing movies would not go over well at all!

    LOL

    Definitely watch when I get home.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 5:09pm

  241. i see :)

    Posted by loveloki at 02/28/2006 @ 5:10pm

  242. cpt, i will concede to you that i can be rather vulgar in my choice of language at times and that i cannot recall you ever doing so.

    Posted by loveloki at 02/28/2006 @ 5:24pm

  243. CPT:

    You said: "You may ask Joe if he wants to be in Iraq; but he does not think of that question in terms of the reasons for the invasion or current national policy, he hears would you rather be here or at home with your girlfriend at the beach or lake and drinking a beer."

    According to Zogby, "An overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year, and nearly one in four say the troops should leave immediately."

    A pretty straightforward question about U.S. troops, not the individual. Seems you are assuming a real lack of intelligence on the part of the troops polled here. I don't buy it. Indeed, only a few months ago you were critical of domestic polls of civilians, claiming that the troops on the ground were steadfast in their commitment. So now you give no credit to a soldier to correctly interpret a simple question?

    Posted by Hman23 at 02/28/2006 @ 5:33pm

  244. LOVELOKI

    To me, there is an unwritten rule, that around this thread, there are going to be things said in the midst of impassioned debate back and forth. As the people here, care deeply about these issues, there is going to be things said from time to time about the other poster that is often not flattering. Thats ok and it all should be taken with a grain of salt.

    Where the line gets crossed is the ones who go out their way to be SOLELY offensive and invective. These people exists here on both sides, though they are in the minority. Example, I take WILL C and NEW DAWNs and FRNKGITS with a grain of salt and do not wish them ill. Things are said back and forth, but there is no REAL grudge held. I mean after all, so much is lost on the thread, most of us rarely have time to expound as clearly and in detail enough to determine intent and tone.

    Now people like Chim, Bloppy and a couple of others are the ones on the dark side

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 5:35pm

  245. HMAN23

    I just know from my experience, it has NOTHING to do with Joes intelligence. It has to do with his perspective. His lane and where he/she is.

    It should be noted that ZOGBY's own polling data says that 72% beleive we should leave within the year. If that is to be interepeted with a lack of reslove, then people are just interepeting that within their own poltical perspective. If that is to be interepeted as an indictment of war, then why dont they beleive we should go right now?

    I simply chose to be skeptical, because i like to know, who, what their ranks were, what their jobs were and what positions were, officer or enlisted.

    And Zogby is a Democratic pollester, so hmmmm

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 5:51pm

  246. CPT -

    "Where the line gets crossed is the ones who go out their way to be SOLELY offensive and invective. These people exists here on both sides, though they are in the minority. Example, I take WILL C and NEW DAWNs and FRNKGITS with a grain of salt and do not wish them ill. Things are said back and forth, but there is no REAL grudge held. I mean after all, so much is lost on the thread, most of us rarely have time to expound as clearly and in detail enough to determine intent and tone."

    As long as you weren't implying that I am one of the ones who "go out their way to be SOLELY offensive and invective", I'll say that I agree wholeheartedly with this last post.

    I always try to back up even my invective with critical thinking, facts, and examples of why I feel the way I do.

    Some people really piss me off, and sometimes I post in just that tone.

    You, I hand a modicum of respect to for your service, not matter what else I may think or how we disagree. Period. That respect is unshakeable.

    It is the Rio's and Libzsuck's that I can't tolerate at all.

    And I've always looked at these boards as a test of quickness, wit, and expressing one's convictions with substance AND style.

    We ain't got to agree to learn from one another.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 5:52pm

  247. CPT posts -

    "If that is to be interepeted as an indictment of war, then why dont they beleive we should go right now?"

    Duty, honor, and commitment to their country and C-in-C, regardless of whether they agree with the orders?

    Kind of a silly question, CPT.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 5:54pm

  248. NEW DAWN

    All I am saying is that there is simple room for leeway, that we should not interpet the fact that many WANT to leave Iraq. I want to leave Iraq as soon as feasible. But that does not mean I want to leave before its appropiate. But looking at it again, I am buouyed by the fact that they dont want to cut and run, if Zogby is to be believed then it is hearteneing to know that they want ot leave WITHIN the year.

    Which is indicative a positive sign.

    Posted by CPT at 02/28/2006 @ 6:05pm

  249. Which was the point of the entire article.

    You leapt on it at the outset by claiming it was flawed and not to be believed, didn't you? (May have been Todd)

    What was this whole thread about?

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 6:08pm

  250. Now people like Chim, Bloppy and a couple of others are the ones on the dark side

    Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 5:35pm | ignore this person

    cant be a light side without a dark side....

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/28/2006 @ 7:03pm

  251. chim's profaniy ridden insult-o-ramas are priceless

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/28/2006 @ 7:04pm

  252. Where's Bloppy been anyway. He hasn't been round in a while

    I hope he's Ok.

    (the man is a genius)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 7:37pm

  253. Oh, Ibble, have to agree with you there.

    Chimi quickly cuts to the bone, and I for one, have no problem with his expatriate status.

    Posted by New Dawn at 02/28/2006 @ 7:38pm

  254. and Chimi... our resident Columbian necktie

    The man is ice cold and razor sharp

    Posted by Will C. at 02/28/2006 @ 7:39pm

  255. All I am saying is that there is simple room for leeway, that we should not interpet the fact that many WANT to leave Iraq. I want to leave Iraq as soon as feasible. But that does not mean I want to leave before its appropiate. But looking at it again, I am buouyed by the fact that they dont want to cut and run, if Zogby is to be believed then it is hearteneing to know that they want ot leave WITHIN the year.

    Which is indicative a positive sign.

    Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 6:05pm | ignore this person

    Sure CPT. Did you even read the poll? Did you just cherry-pick or what?

    Of the 72% who responded that American should leave Iraq, about 1/3 of those said that America should withdraw IMMEDIATELY, 1/3 said the withdrawal should be within 6 months and the remaining 1/3 said the withdrawal should be within the next 12 months.

    Posted by Lillian at 02/28/2006 @ 8:09pm

  256. FRANKGITS

    "Lesile" thats not my name

    Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 2:16pm

    Just curious, was that an attempt at ironic humor? (Ignoring the fact, you've always spelled it that way.)

    Most of us over look typos on this blog, because things are typed hastily (Perhaps at work) and passionately.(or like me, your spelling is poor.) But your typos, often make your responses unreadable.

    And more than a few times, you've used 'opps' to back down from a position.

    It's no fun to call you names, if you later change your tune. So, try to be more legible, as I enjoy calling you names as much as todd likes to see people die and you like signing kids up, potentially to die, who you think are beneath your intellect (Gawd, that's a scary thought.)

    Eric

    CPT. Corporate Police Temps.

    Posted by malcontent3 at 02/28/2006 @ 8:22pm

  257. Now I chose NOT to believe a ZOGBY poll, he also predicted kerry the winner as i recall.

    Zogby forecast a thin margin for Kerry but his polling was done before Osama Bin Laden released his "vote Bush" videotape and in any case polling can be volatile in the last two or three days of a campaign because of the many people who don't finally make up their mund until the last second, literally. Bush only won because one state swung into his column. Zogby had no way of knowing that the Republicans in Ohio had arranged for a shortage of voting stations in selected precincts in their state. So, everything considered, Zogby's forecast was very accurate.

    If Zogby talked to SOLELY joes, than his findings are flawed. Joe does NOT think strategically, big picture stuff, not because hs is unable to do so, its is because Joe is too busy looking at his area of operations, or in "his lane."

    Posted by CPT 02/28/2006 @ 4:06pm

    On the other hand, you're trying to say that troopers who have served up to three tours in Iraq in less than three years still don't know what the fuck is going on. Like I said before, you're the one who isn't smart enough to be in the armed forces of the United States of America.

    Posted by fromredbird at 02/28/2006 @ 8:28pm

  258. CPT. Corporate Police Temps.

    Posted by MALCONTENT3 02/28/2006 @ 8:22pm

    I was thinking ComPletelyToopid

    Posted by fromredbird at 02/28/2006 @ 8:32pm

  259. Stay a little longer and Win? See what they say then..

    A little longer!?! Sounds very much like the light is at the end of the tunnel line. We've been there for three years and Iraq is this close to a civil war, we had an election that showed power flowing to the religious parties and away from the secular ones and numbers of US dead haven't dropped at all in the last couple of years. Where are the indications of progress that indicate that we only need a "little longer".

    You may ask Joe if he wants to be in Iraq; but he does not think of that question in terms of the reasons for the invasion or current national policy, he hears would you rather be here or at home with your girlfriend at the beach or lake and drinking a beer."

    Yeah, but I think they know if they're being shot at as often, if there's been any diminution in the risks of roadsied IEDs, in the overall tempo of violence. From that they are certainly in a position to infer if forward progress is being made.

    Finally, as to the two terrorist organizations. Abu Nidal had been a relic since the late 80s while al-Ansar was based in KURDISH territory, beyond Hussein's writ.

    Posted by brunowe at 02/28/2006 @ 9:27pm

  260. CPT:

    The question was not do "you want" to leave Iraq - which could imply that "you" want to win first, then leave, or something along those lines. It was "should the U.S." leave Iraq. I think those asked can understand the difference.

    Take this question, "Should the state of [insert state] reinstitute the death penalty?" Would most people think automatically, "Well, I don't want to actually pull the switch myself and be the one killing someone" and then answer, "No" even if they were pro-death penalty?

    Posted by Hman23 at 02/28/2006 @ 10:35pm

  261. Oh, they'll leave. It's over, CPT. Believe that. Your side can't even subdue a group of isolated guerillas. Pack your shit and go. It's not your country. Get out. Death to the empire. Just a little public service message from the Dark Side. Black as pitch. Black as it gets. Black as the earth. Black as the crossroads. Leave your rum and cigars on the way out, and maybe we'll forget about the whole thing, fool. Death to the empire.

    Posted by Legba at 03/01/2006 @ 02:12am

  262. allright PETER

    blog is "petering out" here. time for a new topic...ha ha ha

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2006 @ 11:48am

  263. Hey. Legba. "Peter-ing out". Legba is St. Peter. I get it. If CPT ain't got the rum and cigars, I'll cough em up, oh trickster. You're the shit.

    Posted by Sweetdaddy at 03/01/2006 @ 12:46pm

  264. Looks like 72% of the troops are in for a big disappointment. They want OUT in a year, which means that they want to start the process of withdrawal YESTERDAY.

    72% want a plan to get out and they want that plan NOW.

    Their chicken shit commander in chief and his drunken lawyer shooting buddy are too busy with other stuff to worry about the $500B/year military boys and girls.

    Posted by freedomplease at 03/01/2006 @ 4:12pm

  265. Hey New Dawn,

    Did you see that movie, ibble and loki linked you to?

    Just curious?

    Eric

    Posted by malcontent3 at 03/01/2006 @ 4:21pm

  266. blog dies with a whimper, not with a bang

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2006 @ 5:46pm

  267. when the posted responses to a blog reach 7 pages either

    A)its gone on 2 long, or B)its about abortion, or C) rese and the cut'n paste brigade have been at it again

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2006 @ 5:51pm

  268. maybe

    we need get job

    Posted by malcontent3 at 03/01/2006 @ 6:21pm

  269. Posted by MALCONTENT3 03/01/2006 @ 6:21pm

    post less - work more! - ha ha ha

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2006 @ 6:30pm

  270. Posted by MALCONTENT3 03/01/2006 @ 6:21pm post less - work more! - ha ha ha Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 03/01/2006 @ 6:30pm | ignore this person

    Ibbleb,

    Something tells me you drive you family nuts about now HA HA HA. (But, please keep it up here.)

    Posted by seattlescribe at 03/01/2006 @ 11:09pm

  271. Posted by SEATTLESCRIBE 03/01/2006 @ 11:09pm

    i try 2 drive 'em nuts and keep 'em sane at the same time

    oh - in the spirit of "on topic"...

    the iraq war sucks...good night

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2006 @ 11:37pm

  272. And it don't even suck GOOD. Good night.

    Posted by Sweetdaddy at 03/02/2006 @ 12:43pm

  273. Look sillies. We are at war. Your refusal to acknowledge that is our chief political weapon against you. Don't you get that? :)

    Posted by Tymbrimi at 03/03/2006 @ 02:17am

  274. Look sillies. you started an illegal, immoral and disastrous war. Your refusal to acknowledge that is our chief political weapon against you. Don't you get that? :)

    Posted by johannesrolf at 03/03/2006 @ 02:28am

  275. Look sillies. We are at war. Your refusal to acknowledge that is our chief political weapon against you. Don't you get that? :)

    Posted by TYMBRIMI 03/03/2006 @ 02:17am | ignore this person

    At war? With whom? Saddam? Osama? The boogeyman? We are under attack in Iraq because we are occupying their country and they want us to leave, but we're not at war with Iraq. We're not at war with Osama - in fact, we hardly seem interested in finding him. In fact, the only entity this administration is at war with seems to be the Constitution.

    And you call us silly? :-P

    Posted by Turk33 at 03/03/2006 @ 10:24am

  276. "Look sillies..."

    was that a patronizing post or what

    Posted by johannesrolf at 03/03/2006 @ 10:54am

  277. Hey New Dawn,

    Did you see that movie, ibble and loki linked you to?

    Just curious?

    Eric

    Posted by MALCONTENT3 03/01/2006 @ 4:21pm | ignore this person

    Finally watched it. How disturbing... Very interesting, but mostly disturbing...

    Posted by New Dawn at 03/03/2006 @ 12:37pm

  278. any luck winning war on fear? why not start with anxiety, work way up to fear...

    ha ha ha

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/03/2006 @ 1:21pm

  279. Speaking of a penny:

    Starting with the Boston Federal Reserve last spring, the New York Fed last fall and Stephen Roach of Morgan Stanley earlier this year, a large number of economists have questioned the rosy jobs figure the 4.7% unemployment rate presents. The essential problem with this number (the official unemployment rate) is it does not include people who have not looked for a job in the last 4 weeks. As the Boston Federal Reserve study points out, a large number of people have left the labor force for a variety of reason. As a result, the only age group to increase their labor participation rate during this expansion is the 55+ group of males and females. All other groups have decreased their respective labor participation rates. In other words, there are still a large number of people who would compete for jobs if they became available. This indicates the possibility of wage growth is lower than the official unemployment rate suggests.

    Rosenberg makes two other very important observations. First, household debt-to-income ratio rose as much in the last five years as it did in the preceding 15 years. This indicates – once again – that debt acquisition is a big reason for this expansions growth. Secondly, consumer spending on food, energy, interest payments and medical expenses as a share of disposable income rose from 48% to 54% over the last 5 years. This percentage vacillated between 44% and 48% for the preceding twenty years. This indicates the lack of meaningful wage growth is really starting to hit home with the average American.

    http://www.bopnews.com/archives/006075.html

    Posted by Bushfools at 03/03/2006 @ 2:26pm

  280. what is often mention to bolster the economy is the record number of housing starts. what is not mentioned is that housing is a commodity that is bought on credit. not so reassuring in an economy where both the government AND the citizens are in debt up to their proverbial eyeballs

    Posted by johannesrolf at 03/03/2006 @ 6:12pm

  281. Posted by TYMBRIMI 03/03/2006 @ 02:17am

    people realizing they were lied into a war is our best asset

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/03/2006 @ 7:00pm

Peter Rothberg Peter Rothberg

Your guide to expressing informed dissent to war, racism, sexism, environmental degradation and market-based solutions to social problems.

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