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RedditThe first sentence of The Nation's prospectus, dated July 6, 1865, promised "the maintenance and diffusion of true democratic principles in society and government," surely a patriotic sentiment, as was the magazine's name.
Since that time The Nation has attempted to represent and give voice to the best of American values and culture and has steadfastly resisted any and all efforts through the years to brand dissent as unpatriotic.
In the summer of 1991, in the aftermath of the first Gulf War, the magazine published a forum exploring the question of what is patriotism -- Is there a patriotism that is not nationalistic? How does the historic internationalism of the liberal left relate to the concept of patriotism? What do you value in the traditions of your country?
An illuminating cast of characters offered answers back then, including Floyd Abrams, William Sloan Coffin, Martin Duberman, Richard Falk, Howard Fast, Vivian Gornick, Jesse Jackson, Erwin Knoll, Mary McGrory, Natalie Merchant and then-editor at large Katrina vanden Heuvel.
Read the still-relevant forum and use the comments field below to let us know how you define patriotism.
Happy Fourth!
PS: If you have extra time on your hands and want to follow me on Twitter -- a micro-blog -- click here. You'll find (slightly) more personal posts, basketball and breaking news and lots of links.
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Peter Rothberg
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First and foremost within American history, I value the spirit of Constitutional democracy within which we have evolved our functioning politics.
Secondly, comes a willingness to help foster democracy around the World, upholding liberty in examples like Iraq, El Salvador, and Viet Nam against brutal dictatorships, in helping the people. Even with our wide sweeping victories in the World Wars, we did not expand and annexed no territories. Seldom has any nation behaved to this extent and without taint of Imperialism thru generations, when it would have been a natural reaction to times from Pearl Harbor up to the practicasl extinction of Communism, and continuing today.
With these as a foundation, the verdict of history is likely to be quite warm.
Posted by balataf at 07/03/2009 @ 10:11pm
Posted by balataf at 07/03/2009 @ 10:11pm
america's cool but you need some new glasses.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/03/2009 @ 10:56pm
Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
That says it pretty well for me.
Posted by BigPasture at 07/04/2009 @ 12:12am
i value our constant insistence that we are good, and even when we do bad, we always eventually own up and do the right thing in the big picture.
we are a nation of dreamers and doers. a good balance is hard to achieve, but personally i think we need to dream nobler dreams and have the courage to follow them.
we have crashed upon a world and conquered all but the most remote areas of the globe not with military might, but with ideas, accomplishments, and a powerful culture that mesmerizes from crude to sublime.
i value the real freedom of speech and faith i have and the great wealth centuries of toil and sacrifice have brought us. these roads and parks and businesses did not spring up without sacrifice and work, and the rights have not been won bloodlessly.
happy 4th
Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/04/2009 @ 12:52am
Patriotism is being true to the principles of ones country.
The principles most central to America are democracy, freedom of speech and religious toleration.
We are patriots to the degree that we uphold and defend those ideals.
And how have we been doing lately?
There has been a fight in Iraq
When there is a fight between an elected govt that affirms human rights, and an insurgency that declares democracy, freedom of speech and religion displease displeasing Allah our side is, or at least should be, obvious. Seldom have our core beliefs been so clearly at stake on a battlefield.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 07/04/2009 @ 05:07am
And which side did The Nation and most of its readers support in that fight?
It supported the enemies of our most fundamental values. It sought our withdrawal when that would have put 23 million Iraqis into the hands of the most brutal fascists since the Gestapo hanged democrats from meathooks.
And this, The Nation crowd, which in practice opposes America's core values here waves the flag without shame.
Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 07/04/2009 @ 05:17am
I would define patriotism in the rather old fashioned Greek way.
Devotion to the Common Good
But then again I'm just and old fashioned kinda guy. :)
Posted by chaoszen at 07/04/2009 @ 09:20am
That says it pretty well for me.
Posted by BigPasture at 07/04/2009 @ 12:12am
Leave it to Larry to quote Patrick Henry. One of the three first advocates of "Republicanism", along with Thomas Paine and Samuel Adams.
Henry did not exactly believe in Jeffersons idea of the separation of church and state did he?
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom to worship here." Patrick Henry, 1776
If you read this closely, it is quite disturbing.
And I suppose Jefferson also found it so.
Posted by chaoszen at 07/04/2009 @ 09:48am
Funny that Patrick Henry should say that the country was founded by "Christians" when most of the founding fathers were Deists..
The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution.
Posted by chaoszen at 07/04/2009 @ 09:57am
The Declaration of Independence was the very first document in the founding of a Government and Country that has ever included the word, "Happiness", as a right. But as is often stated it does not have the force of law because it was never adopted into the Constitution. This was an oversight that in my opinion was extremely unfortunate.
But I suppose even the founding fathers couldn't think of everything. The fact that it does appear in the Declaration of Independence however, gives it a certain degree of intent and legitimancy. In fact several states have "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" in their respective State Constitutions.
To me, it is very significant and a point of pride in my country that such an abstract idea such as "happiness" should have been included in a founding document.
How about you?
Posted by chaoszen at 07/04/2009 @ 10:19am
Posted by BigPasture at 07/04/2009 @ 12:12am
So given Obama's going to "take away your liberty", RIO.....what's your plan?
BTW, chaoszen, Big Posture is "RIO/comanche"...not Larry/antisoc/lvliberty.
Posted by Mask at 07/04/2009 @ 11:35am
BTW, chaoszen, Big Posture is "RIO/comanche"...not Larry/antisoc/lvliberty.
Posted by Mask at 07/04/2009 @ 11:35am
Sorry, they are easily confused. Since they are butt buddies it is hard to tell the difference. My mistake.
Posted by chaoszen at 07/04/2009 @ 12:00pm
Posted by chaoszen at 07/04/2009 @ 12:00pm
It's close.
Posted by Mask at 07/04/2009 @ 12:26pm
Even with our wide sweeping victories in the World Wars, we did not expand and annexed no territories.
america did all of that in the 19th century.
Posted by emile duBois at 07/04/2009 @ 12:33pm
Even with our wide sweeping victories in the World Wars, we did not expand and annexed no territories.
america did all of that in the 19th century.
Posted by emile duBois at 07/04/2009 @ 12:34pm
Hugo_Pirovano, you live in a dream world.
read the Adams speech on another thread.
Posted by emile duBois at 07/04/2009 @ 12:37pm
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. April 7, 1775, p. 253
Boswell's full mention of this statement reads:
Patriotism having become one of our topicks, Johnson suddenly uttered, in a strong determined tone, an apophthegm, at which many will start:
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered, that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self-interest.
Posted by emile duBois at 07/04/2009 @ 1:01pm
Posted by emile duBois at 07/04/2009 @ 1:01pm
Pariotism is often equated or confused with Nationalism. Nationalists will always cloak themselves in the flag and call it Patriotism. True Patriots will always speak of Principles and never clothe themselves in a symbol.
Posted by chaoszen at 07/04/2009 @ 1:34pm
I used to value honest journalism or at least what I thought was honest journalism, the kind that could be trusted, as the purest form of patriotism. But I'm not sure that in a free society, there is any such thing. People by-and-large will, and always have, gravitated toward publications and electronic media that were in line with their own values, ethics and politics. I fear however, that the general populace is easily duped and therein lies the tragedy of the lack of individual thought that existed in our country's birth.
Posted by gunslinger1 at 07/04/2009 @ 2:08pm
Posted by emile duBois at 07/04/2009 @ 1:01pm | ignore this person | warn this person
so dumas fils' quip, "the military is the last refuge of a scoundrel" was based on boswells? live and learn...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/04/2009 @ 2:45pm
From the man who made Americans feel good about America again (at least most Americans)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01QPo7zk7GM
http://reagan2020.us/speeches/Farewell.asp
Posted by antisocialist at 07/04/2009 @ 3:35pm
"From the man who made Americans feel good about America again (at least most Americans) "
Not really most american's just some. But I will take it.
I think I go along with Chaos on the greek definition. You are not lacking in patriotism if you don't choose to get yourself killed in a war you disagree with because in actuality you are acting towards what you believe to be the common good. I think patriotism is doing what you feel is neccesary to elevate your country to be it's best.
Happy 4th all.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/04/2009 @ 3:44pm
"From the man who made Americans feel good about America again (at least most Americans).....blah, blah, blah"
~antisocialist
Here's a far more appropriate link as we celebrate our "freedom" today:
tinyurl.com/4heb7x
Posted by b_kool_66 at 07/04/2009 @ 3:50pm
One more for good measure. Here's 10 minutes of valuable footage as another American country struggles for its own freedom even as we celebrate our own:
informationclearinghouse.info/article22977.htm
And let's not forget that the greatest threat to freedom everywhere is ignorance and complacency arranged against concentrated wealth and power.
Arm yourselves with information.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 07/04/2009 @ 4:39pm
this says it all
http://oldbluejacket.com/americanwarrior.htm
Posted by antisocialist at 07/04/2009 @ 5:38pm
Posted by antisocialist at 07/04/2009 @ 5:38pm
I tend to disagree with you that only people who are truly patriotic are the people who go to war. I believe that partiotism is not contingent on wielding a weapon for your country. Many people are patriotic in many different ways. Service to your country does not only come in the form of military. For instance I think those who provide aid to the poor are also being patriotic. While I think being the military IS a form of patriotism I don't think it is the ONLY form. Also some people don't join the military for patriotic reasons they join for self serving reasons. Like they serve just to get an education rather than to serve their country. I think your reason for an activity, rather than the activity itself.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/04/2009 @ 7:07pm
One simple way....
My flying the US flag, not just on the 4th....even Labor Day, imagine that!
Posted by Happy at 07/04/2009 @ 11:30pm
Posted by antisocialist at 07/04/2009 @ 5:38pm
Good one. Thanks.
And Ccomffo1: Read the Gettysburg Address. Lincoln wasn't paying tribute to people who provided aid to the poor. He paying tribute to those who had given the "last full measure of devotion" to their country. There's a difference.
Posted by twillie at 07/04/2009 @ 11:41pm
Posted by balataf at 07/03/2009 @ 10:11pm
We live in a republic, a republic built on the idea that people can decide what's best for themselves without the influence of foreign powers.
Posted by BigPasture at 07/04/2009 @ 12:12am
Patrick Henry's war ended a few hundred years ago.
Posted by chaoszen at 07/04/2009 @ 12:00pm
A mistake you seem to like to repeat.
Posted by emile duBois at 07/04/2009 @ 12:33pm
How about the U.S. Virgin Islands or Diego Garcia? Or the many bases?
Posted by gunslinger1 at 07/04/2009 @ 2:08pm
The journalism you speak of is, and has always been, an illusion.
Posted by Happy at 07/04/2009 @ 11:30pm
I wouldn't have taken you for someone with such a keen interest in May 1st.
Posted by srjenkins at 07/05/2009 @ 12:32am
Gentlemen have talked a great deal of patriotism. A venerable word, when duly practised. But I am sorry to say that of late it has been so much hackneyed about that it is in danger of falling into disgrace. The very idea of true patriotism is lost, and the term has been prostituted to the very worst of purposes. - Robert Walpole
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice -- and always has been. - Mark Twain
Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. - George Barnard Shaw
To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. - George Santayana
Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons. - Bernard Russell
These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. - Thomas Paine
By 'patriotism' I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. - George Orwell
Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism -- how passionately I hate them! -Albert Einstein
Patriotism ... for rulers is nothing else than a tool for achieving their power-hungry and money-hungry goals, and for the ruled it means renouncing their human dignity, reason, conscience, and slavish submission to those in power. ... Patriotism is slavery. - Leo Tolstoy
Posted by srjenkins at 07/05/2009 @ 12:43am
I look forward to reading the condemnation of all you sunshine patriots, with your nonsense about spreading democracy and flag waving, whose most dangerous activity is the turning on your backyard grills or barely managing not to maim yourself (or your children) setting off fireworks.
Aren't we all just waxing fucking poetic about patriotism? It's fine to love the community you are part of and your way of life, but let's cut the bullshit, shall we?
Posted by srjenkins at 07/05/2009 @ 12:50am
And Ccomffo1: Read the Gettysburg Address. Lincoln wasn't paying tribute to people who provided aid to the poor. He paying tribute to those who had given the "last full measure of devotion" to their country. There's a difference.
Posted by twillie at 07/04/2009 @ 11:41pm
I don't care who Lincoln was talking about. I think those who serve their country whether it be on a large scale in the military or on a small scale in you own community are considered patriotic. I think the people who believe that the only way to be patriotic is to serve in the military have completely missed the entire history behind the word. Would you consider presidents who haven't served in the military less patriotic? I think it is complete BS to consider the only form of patriotism to be military service. That I feel is indicative of someone who is nationalistic not patriotic.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/05/2009 @ 04:26am
Aren't we all just waxing fucking poetic about patriotism? It's fine to love the community you are part of and your way of life, but let's cut the bullshit, shall we?
Posted by srjenkins at 07/05/2009 @ 12:50am
If you don't like the discussion you don't have to participate but to come on a forum and complain about the topic seems kind of senseless. Depending on your view of what patriotism is it doesn't neccesarily fall under the quotes you gave. Even some of the quotes to speak of whatever "true patriotism" is to be a bad thing. Reread the quote from Robert Walpole or Thomas Paine and you see that they are talking about "false patriots".
I think it is fine to love your country and want to serve it, which is being a patriot as long as you don't take that into the realm of nationalism, which is what we see most of the time now a days and which is what I think you and the authors of most of those quotes are truly speaking about.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/05/2009 @ 04:31am
Reponding: Diego Garcia is a British dependency, not at all an American one.
The US Virgin Islands were PURCHASED from Denmark, which had tried several times earlier to sell them to the US. The idea was very popular with the Islanders at the time.
John D., Froelich (balataf)
Posted by balataf at 07/05/2009 @ 08:28am
Sure wish BP, Twillie, ANTI, Hugo,JOMAMMA, SJCHERM
would go to war already!
------
My favorite tradition in America is the ability to change tradition.
My least favorite is calling nationalism patriotism.
Posted by crabwalk at 07/05/2009 @ 08:36am
ttp://reagan2020.us/speeches/Farewell.asp
Posted by antisocialist at 07/04/2009 @ 3:35pm
ahh yes...The Messiah.
Posted by crabwalk at 07/05/2009 @ 08:40am
Posted by crabwalk at 07/05/2009 @ 08:40am |
I always found it amusing that the sharp upswing in use of the American flag in apparel (often in thoroughly inappropriate ways, to this boy scout's morays) occurred during Reagan's two terms.
We switched from defining what patriotism was to defining who is or is not a patriot based on compliance with the vocal minority's nationalistic lunacy.
I think that's when the nationalists finally took over the term and made it almost completely meaningless.
LOL that the cons who pissed away their liberty during Dubya's two terms would invoke the words of a failed businessman who lived large on his father-in-law's dime and then pooped on the Constitution.
Some things never change...
Posted by snowball777 at 07/05/2009 @ 11:01am
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/05/2009 @ 04:31am
If I don't like this discussion, I can damn well call this bullshit what it is.
Let's catalog the bad ideas: being a patriot is "fostering democracy around the world", someone quoting "give me liberty or give me death", assurances that "we always eventually own up and do the right thing in the big picture", another states "[s]eldom have our core beliefs been so clearly at stake on a battlefield", defining patriotism "as the common good", someone talks about "the tragedy of the lack of individual thought that existed in our country's birth", Ronald Reagan's farewell "Freedom man" speech in support of US intervention everywhere, a link to a discussion on NSA spying (presumably to show how far we have come from the base principles of the Constitution), a feel good video about the average American soldier, and so forth and so on.
In other words: mostly bullshit.
Loving liberty, freedom of speech or to practice your religion (or not practice any religion) are something everyone wants. It's not uniquely American.
It's not American responsibility to fight for "freedom" around the world. It's up to people to demand their freedoms for themselves. You cannot hand it to people anymore than you can be a patriot by grilling food or lighting a few fireworks.
"Patriotism" that doesn't have anything meaningful at stake isn't patriotism. And patriotism that is exploited for self-interest or built on notions of superiority is false patriotism.
When you take all that out, what do you have left? You have a love for the people you know, your way of life and the desire to make sacrifices for them. That's something that deserves a better word that "patriotism".
Posted by srjenkins at 07/05/2009 @ 11:29am
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/05/2009 @ 04:31am
Since we are talking about "patriotism", the most patriotic thing I have even seen was at an anti-war demonstration with thousands of police officers in riot gear, lining the streets, and a mother brought her child and did the march with the child in a stroller.
That's having a stake and that's standing up for liberty.
Contrast that to the man thanking us for marching, but who didn't have the balls to join in himself. I can't think of a more clear example of true and false patriotism.
Posted by srjenkins at 07/05/2009 @ 11:32am
Posted by balataf at 07/05/2009 @ 08:28am
The part I was responding to is this sentence:
"Even with our wide sweeping victories in the World Wars, we did not expand and annexed no territories."
Purchasing is expanding, is it not? And the whole Diego Garcia defense that the British own it is laughable. Read Island of Shame by David Vine.
Posted by srjenkins at 07/05/2009 @ 11:32am
"I think it is complete BS to consider the only form of patriotism to be military service."
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/05/2009 @ 04:26am
I didn't say that, nor do I believe it. I agree that there are many ways to serve your country. but some are WAY more valuable than others. You may not like it, but it's the truth.
Posted by twillie at 07/05/2009 @ 11:37am
The problem with the neo-cons "patriotism=military service" is that since WWII there has not been a genuine threat against the USA in which to "prove" ones patriotism via death of oneself or others. Mostly it has been expansion of empire or holding off "threats" 1o,000 miles from our shores.
As a matter of fact, most that serve in the military will never see action. They will do laundry, fill out forms, drill and polish.
The worst kind of nationalism is the one that demands that our soldiers go fight against wmd's that didn't exist, propping up the 2nd most corrupt regime in the world.
Posted by crabwalk at 07/05/2009 @ 1:24pm
If you want to see the way in which the neo-cons celebrate their form of patriotism, review the story of Pat Tillman.
Posted by crabwalk at 07/05/2009 @ 1:27pm
What about matriotism?
I'm more of a citizen of Earth, Sol system, Milky Way. I try to tread lightly.
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 07/05/2009 @ 2:11pm
I think patriotism is a fascinating concept to discuss, and I think it has considerable though limited value.
Though it has not been brought up yet, I would like to mention a possible religious contribution to this discussion because I think it highly relevant. Any individual who affirms "seek ye first the kingdom of God and its righteousness" cannot be a patriot first and foremost. No one whose ultimate standard is oriented in God can place unconditional faith or obedience in his/her country. This is why it saddens me when Paul says that all governments on this Earth were placed there by God; he is plainly mistaken. Many governments that have existed and still do exist were not bestowed with any kind of divine right to rule(in fact, I would argue that none ever have been), and because power has a strong tendency corrupt, I would argue that no government deserves absolute trust.
Does that mean anarchism? Of course not; anarchism is nothing more than a combination of cynicism and naivete, assuming that because governments are imperfect, chaos is better. It does, however, mean that those of us who love this country should not be afraid to correct it where it fails and to "obey God rather than men" should a fundamental conflict arise. Moreover it means that although we should greatly respect those who have made the ultimate sacrifice, we should shy away from suggesting that those who seek to serve others without killing are in some way inferior or deficient. Put bluntly, there is great honor in putting your life on the line, but there is no glory in war. Otherwise, I don't see what "blessed are the peacemakers" is supposed to mean.
With all of that said...happy July 4th, everyone!
Posted by Thrawn at 07/05/2009 @ 2:33pm
Though I realize that the "happy 4th" was a day late. Ah well; belated happy 4th, then.
Posted by Thrawn at 07/05/2009 @ 2:58pm
Nationalism is just another lie fostered by the military/industrial complex to justify war. Nationalists are dangerous and to be avoided. They are of the same ilk as racists, skinheads, the KKK, McCarthyism, the far right, religious fanatics. They do not think, therefore they are.
Patriotism - if you don't have a flag in your lapel, you're a traitor.
My country has many fine points and many bad ones - I would defend my family, my neighbors, my friends, the stranger on a bus. My country? It's nothing more than dirt we stole from the Indians and then systematically destroyed.
Posted by myfoot at 07/05/2009 @ 9:39pm
My country? It's nothing more than dirt we stole from the Indians and then systematically destroyed.
Posted by myfoot at 07/05/2009 @ 9:39pm
But I'm sure you enjoy living on stolen land just as much as I, your family, neighbors, friends and all the other strangers. But, unlike us, you're a God damn hypocrite!
Posted by Happy at 07/05/2009 @ 10:53pm
Check me if I'm wrong Sandy.... But, remind me again what the unemployment figures were under Bedtime For Bonzo's regime..???
Btw.. I hope you all have your fingers and toes after a w/e of low grade explosives...
Scot
Posted by Vvf1969 at 07/05/2009 @ 11:03pm
Srj, I agree with you completely about the difference between real and false patriotism which is the point I was making even about the quotes you provided.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/06/2009 @ 01:01am
SRJ,
But I feel you missed the point of it. You are saying that a healthy discussion of what is patriotism is BS rather than the answers that were given that you felt were BS. I think the discussion of what is patriotism is important because I think dissent in this country has been framed as traitorous by many people. Bush saying if you aren't with us you are against is proof of that. He basically in one stroke said that you have to support every action we take no matter how extreme you view it to be or you are a terrorist yourself. I think defining what is a patriot is extremely important because it defines what it is to do something for the good of your country or for the common good, so although you think this discussion is BS, some of us view it as very important because it helps in order to frame what dissent is. Especially in a country founded on it where slavish nationalism I think should actually be viewed as just as traitorous as people calling for the downfall of their country.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/06/2009 @ 01:14am
The miracle of the United States is that intelligent men (and women) of good character were able to carve out, using basically untried social and political theories, a nation built on the principles of freedom from a ruling class, the basic equality of all people in the eyes of god (even though they were hypocrites regarding slavery and other things), the sovereign rights of the people, freedom of religion and freedom from religion in state matters.
It IS a miracle, because human beings are not animals that biologically use reason to resolve conflict. Evolution has forced us to a point where our basic relationships are tribal; it has always been "us vs. them" and the winning side survived. Only within the last couple millennia have we even thought about using reason before force.
The miracle of the United States, as embodied in the Statue of Liberty, brought literally millions of people from every corner of the world to our shores to help "perfect the union." The United States is not only a melting pot, it is an experiment. We are a nation that has forced the world to expand beyond tribalism. The world has literally become a smaller planet, especially when you consider technology. This has created challenges and America has shown some solutions; the first of which is Reason.
Are we perfect? Of course not, for the ground upon which the experiment exists, is hallowed by the deaths of the natives. However, we have proven that, with the right set of laws and protection for minorities from the tyranny of a majority, mankind can overcome tribalism. For our species is now at a place and time where we can destroy ourselves in numerous ways. If we are to survive, it will be Reason, not Force, that allows us to survive.
That's evolutionary change.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 07/06/2009 @ 01:31am
To me patriotism is about caring about your country.. being willing to do something to help out when you're needed to.. It's some not just some bumper sticker slogan to me, like it is to many republicans.
Posted by e4phil at 07/06/2009 @ 02:57am
Patriotism is bull shit. We live inside a historical myth -- a myth that tries to make us believe that slave owners and other gentry complicit with slave owners could create a free society. The big lie goes all the way back to the beginning, and the vast majority of people in the US believe it. Ironically the only way we will ever be free is to realize that in fact most of us have never been free. That was the slave owners and their complicit brethren' s plan. These people were interested in their freedom, which of course was derived from the exploitation of slaves, indentured servants and what ever free workers were around at that time, not to mention the thievery of land and genocide of the indigenous people as well as the second class status of women. Now the same group accomplishes the same thing with wage slavery. It would be hysterical if it wasn't so tragic, because the myth is killing us and many other folks throughout the world.
Posted by wbblack at 07/06/2009 @ 09:58am
"Now the same group accomplishes the same thing with wage slavery. It would be hysterical if it wasn't so tragic, because the myth is killing us and many other folks throughout the world." Posted by wbblack at 07/06/2009 @ 09:58am
"wage slavery"-- Not familiar with that term. Got a definition and example?
Posted by twillie at 07/06/2009 @ 10:15am
Patriotism (with regard to the United States and it's citizens, which include me) is being supportive of this country and it's institutions, and doing what you can to aid your country and defend in times of peril, given that:
1. The United States is the first nation in human history to really offer it's citizens the ability to completely govern themselves.
2. The United States and it's institutions, enabled citizens of this country to right wrongs that exsited by themselves (wrongs that also occurred and in many cases still occur elsewhere)and bring franchise and involvement to those who were disenfranchised before.
3. The United States and it's institutions, enabling free people to chart their own course in life, has resulted in the considerable advancement in our standard of living and technology over the last 300 years, and has provided for the greatest economic achievement ever known.
4. The United States and it's institutions have been more giving of our national resources and human treasure to assist other nations in peril and other peoples in the world to have a better quality of life, than any other country in human history, and has done so with less regard for it's own advancement than any other entity in human history. The United States has never been an "empire".
That is what patriotism is....supporting and defending and helping the best country that has come along in human history.
The opposite is expresssed by wbblack, above, who says that "most of us have never been free"....the fact is that the United States of America is the freeest country in human history.
Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 10:38am
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/06/2009 @ 01:14am
I'm questioning the whole notion of patriotism, particularly as it has been consistently laid out in this pathetic thread that assumes American exceptionalism, militarism, boasting by people that do not have any significant stake in what they are advocating, and parochialism.
"Bush saying if you aren't with us you are against is proof of that. He basically in one stroke said that you have to support every action we take no matter how extreme you view it to be or you are a terrorist yourself."
It's easy. You reframe the discussion by saying:
"I'm against you. I'm against your stupid ideas about America and what it means to be patriotic."
And if that means you lose your job, get beat, thrown in jail or put into the nut house, then when the time passes, they finally come around to your point of view and life gets back to "normal", you might be able to say something about patriotism to those of us that don't know much about it.
As it stands, this thread is just lots of talk about nothin'.
Posted by twillie at 07/06/2009 @ 10:15am
The most obvious example from modern day America would be convict labor. But any environment where you are living hand to mouth and are exploited would serve. Many examples exist in literature and film. Grapes of Wrath is a good one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery
Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 10:38am
Thank you for providing an excellent example of the parochialism I referred to above.
1. Athens? Heard of it?
2. This is different than Britain in what way?
3. Most people attribute the economic boom to the industrial revolution.
4. America has interests. There's a reason we are in Iraq and not in Africa. You're sugar coating the facts.
Posted by srjenkins at 07/06/2009 @ 11:25am
"1. The United States is the first nation in human history to really offer it's citizens the ability to completely govern themselves."----Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 10:38am
The Althing of Iceland? Iroquois Confederacy? Switzerland?
BTW, before you leap to "Yes, but they were restricted in who could participate"....I'll point out the restrictions on "property owners" until the 1840s...women until the 1920s...and blacks until the 1960s.
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 12:45pm
Posted by srjenkins at 07/06/2009 @ 11:25am
I can't disagree with you on any of this.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/06/2009 @ 1:09pm
Mask,
Leave it to you, no matter what I say you will come up, as you apparently have, with other examples proving the United States was not first. You love playing devil's advocate.
I do not give a flying crap about the history of Iceland or Switzerland.
However, please do not talk to me about the Iroquois Confederacy, I have more insight into that than you do, or so I thought. OK, so if the Iroquois Confederacy was first it was first.
Six of one, half a dozen of another, I am not going to explain why. By six of one half a dozen of another I don't mean it doesn't matter and I don't care.
I mean it doesn't change anything, for me personally, I am not going to explain why.
My grade school teachers and high school teachers would be pissed off at me, however.
You win the argument. The Iroquois Confederacy, which is still an independent nation, was the first nation in human history to offer it's citizens the ability to completely govern themselves.
I stand corrected, by you. I should have known the answer to that one and thought of it myself. (and there is a reason why I should have known that).
I still do not give a flying crap about the Althing or people in Switzerland.
Question for you, since you love to play devil's advocate. This is on a totally separate subject:
Do you disagree that Martin Brodeur is one of the greatest goalies in National Hockey League history?
This is a trick question, because if you say no, in order to play devil's advocate, then you are not being a Devil's advocate.
Since you caught me with a "gotcha" I am trying to catch you with one.
FOR THE RECORD:
Mask was right. I was wrong to have forgotten the Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca, Mohawk, Onieda, and Tuscarora, who made up the Six Nations.
Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 1:16pm
'...Our country has been confused about symbols. Since we became a country, we lift up the Liberty Bell, but we're defined by the hangman's noose...' -- Jeremiah Wright -- 27 January, 2008 -- http://www.tnr.com/ politics/story.html?id=4808fe74-023d-417b -8537-33763c33e399
Posted by HonestLiberal at 07/06/2009 @ 1:17pm
It should surprise no one that many on the left who are posting here find the thought of patriotism to be disgusting. These are the globalists who see an open borders, UN style global govt as nirvana.
The amount of self-loathing over their citizenship as Americans just reveals how right many on the right are about the new marxist/liberalism of recent decades.
Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 2:17pm
Typo,
As I was checking back to see if Mask is gloating over being correct, I notice that I spelled Oneida wrong, in my post above. (I spelled it Onieda).
Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 2:23pm
'...The National Association of Real Estate Boards, for instance, issued [in 1943] a seemingly innocuous brochure titled "Fundamentals of Real Estate Practice," which warned realtors that, no matter the size of the down payment on the table, they needed to guard against selling to undesirable elements. "The prospective buyer might be a bootlegger who would cause considerable annoyance to his neighbors, a madam who had a number of call girls on her string, a gangster who wants a screen for his activities by living in a better neighborhood" or--the grace note here--"a colored man of means who was giving his children a college education and thought they were entitled to live among whites." ...
It might seem incongruous to lump together bootleggers, madams, gangsters and upwardly mobile black Americans, as if ...wealth were a form of ill-gotten gain, but that bitter absurdity sits at the heart of Sweet Land of Liberty, Thomas J. Sugrue's panoramic account of the civil rights movement in the North....' -- http://www.thenation.com/ doc/20090622/saul
Posted by HonestLiberal at 07/06/2009 @ 2:26pm
'...at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside...' -- Vietnam War Veteran John Kerry -- 22 April, 1971 -- Senate Foreign Relations Committee Testimony
Posted by HonestLiberal at 07/06/2009 @ 2:31pm
'They left behind a well-equipped National Guard under "Tacho" Somoza, a loathsome man of no military ability who used his good command of English to curry favour with American officers and diplomats. It was of him that Franklin Roosevelt commented, ‘he may be an SOB, but he's our SOB'. In 1934 Somoza assassinated Sandino after tricking him to come to Managua for peace talks, and from 1936 he and his sons ruled, brutally and venally, until "Tachito" was overthrown by latter-day Sandinistas in 1979, to be assassinated in Paraguay the following year.' -- http://www.answers.com /topic/us-military-intervention-in-nicaragua
Posted by HonestLiberal at 07/06/2009 @ 2:36pm
Maintaining the integrity of the Constitution.
Fighting for your country
Individuality
Allowing the free dissemination of all viewpoints
A National Identity
Defiance of unbridled authority.
Pride in one's history.
Helping those less fortunate learn to help themselves.
Knowledge of the ultimate sovereignity of God and his Son Jesus Christ.
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 07/06/2009 @ 2:52pm
Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 1:16pm
Actually a small item....I missed your posts on Sarah's Excellent Adventure this past weekend, so thought I'd go with that.
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 3:26pm
Knowledge of the ultimate sovereignity of God and his Son Jesus Christ.-----------Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 07/06/2009 @ 2:52pm
So atheists, agnostics, Hindus, Muslims, and JEWS....can't be patriots???
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 3:27pm
Mask,
You said "Actually a small item....I missed your posts on Sarah's Excellent Adventure this past weekend, so thought I'd go with that."
My commnents:
1. I made no post this past weekend about next-President Palin, so you did not miss anything.
2. You went with a winner, for you.
3. Do you have a comment about Martin Brodeur? Is he one of the best goalies ever, or not?
Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 3:53pm
'Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: From all our legends, mythology and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins -- or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom -- Lucifer.' -- Rules for Radicals
Posted by HonestLiberal at 07/06/2009 @ 4:17pm
'THE warrior and the executioner do similar jobs. Both kill the enemies of the state. But there the similarity ends. From time immemorial the warrior has been fêted and honoured. The public executioner, by contrast, has always had to lurk in the shadows, working anonymously or for a pittance. There is no glory in what he does.
That sense of discomfort and shame is why a growing number of countries have washed their hands of judicial execution. Today nearly all western democracies, as well as dozens of other countries, have abandoned capital punishment.' -- The Economist -- 13 May 1999
Posted by HonestLiberal at 07/06/2009 @ 4:22pm
Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 2:17pm
When all else fails, just talk about the emotions. Why oh why do they HATE America?
Perhaps the problem is that they love America. Perhaps they love their unique American culture too much to elevate their country to the level of an idol or worse, reduce it to nothing but meaningless expressions encapsulated by putting a yellow ribbons on their car, hotdogs, fireworks or other insipid demonstrations that mean exactly zero.
As a people and as a nation, we have strengths and flaws. And while talking about the flaws (particularly the flaws of what passes as patriotism in this country) may put a damper on your patriotic pep rally, it has been my experience that real love is understanding and accepting the flaws of those we love. It is calling them into account when they do something that's wrong. It is wanting them to be the best they can be, without whitewashing their failings. It's looking at the whole person and saying, despite everything, I still love you.
It's love not loathing, my friend. But, I also understand you are playing argumentative games, and the fact that critiques of "patriotism" here gets this kind of response from you is as good a sign as any that they are right on target.
Posted by srjenkins at 07/06/2009 @ 5:33pm
Posted by srjenkins at 07/06/2009 @ 5:33pm
Good thing.....and very `patriotic', in your own ways....that educated Libs have few(er) kids! Not meant as a slam....matter of demographic facts. You can love each other until you just die out....LOL!
Posted by Happy at 07/06/2009 @ 5:48pm
Mask,
You win again, 2 in one day.
At the moment I am in a frustrated mood, not because of you or politics.
But I know that you are not going to answer my question about Martin Brodeur. How do I know this? Because you never answer questions, you only ask them! (for example, WXYZ television in Detroit).
Martin Brodeur is the goalie for the New Jersey Devils. Thus, if you posted back and took issue with my statement he is one of the best goalies in history (because you always take issue with everybody in order to be a pest)....then you would be playing devil's advocate with me........but you would also not be a Devil's advocate, while you were playing devil's advocate!
But you avoided the trap by not answering the question.
So it is now Mask 2, schermak 0 for today.
By the way:
Martin Brodeur wins the Vezina trophy almost every year (the league's best goalie) and the Devils have won several Stanley Cups with him in goal.
Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 6:09pm
In case some enlightened liberal posts in and takes me to task for tying up a blog about patriotism with comments about hockey, I can only respond as follows:
Who says hockey and patriotism do not go together?
The 1980 Miracle on Ice at the Winter Olympics at Lake Placid was a moment of great pride and patriotism for a lot of Americans. It made our country feel good about itself.
Note to Cccomfo1 - you will question that I am stereotyping and guilty of "bigotry" by hypothesizing that a liberal would post in questioning my comments about hockey. I am NOT GUILTY.....it is my experience that liberals are the ones who post in with snide remarks about stuff like that or who question people's intelligence, etc. For example:
1. You post in with critiques from time to time.
2. Ficheye (who claims not to be liberal) offers up enlightened sarcasm from time to time.
3. Obama thinks ill of the people of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, saying in times of stress they turn to God and Guns. (Nothing wrong with God or guns, of course, but some liberals thing there are things wrong with God and there should be no guns).
4. Liberals thought Ronald Reagan was stupid.
5. Liberals thought George W. Bush was stupid.
6. Liberals think next President Palin is stupid.
I have made my point. I know you don't like it, Cccomfo1, but it is what it is. There are some times when it is a mistake for Conservatives to start self-censoring themselves in order to reach accommodation with liberals.
In other words, Cccomfo1, I am going to do my best to avoid catching what I call "John McCain disease".
(P.S. to Mask....yes John McCain said global warming is a threat and yes I voted for him anyway but no, the term "John McCain disease" is something I made up myself, not heard from Rush.)
Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 6:22pm
Posted by Happy at 07/06/2009 @ 5:48pm
As someone who likes investments, I thought you would appreciate the ROI of a vasectomy. Also, the last laugh might be on good baby making conservatives - as you raise the next generation of liberals to replace those that are dying out. =)
Posted by srjenkins at 07/06/2009 @ 7:15pm
Winter soldier.
Posted by winyahn at 07/06/2009 @ 7:46pm
Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 6:09pm
Sorry, was a discussion of a "hockey mom" supposed to lead to a discussion of a "hockey player"?!?!?!?!??
BTW, I'm not alone in my curiosity about the Divine Miss P's motivations or "plans"....ask Karl Rove or Mike Huckabee. They don't get it either.
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 7:55pm
Posted by Mask at 07/06/2009 @ 7:55pm
Her plan is to be the Al Sharpton of the Republican party.
Posted by srjenkins at 07/06/2009 @ 8:12pm
Mask,
You are nothing if not brilliant, and disingenious.
You move fast and quick, bobbing and weaving like a skilled prizefighter.
On this thread, I had not brought up any discussion of the hockey mom who will be President after the noon hour on January 20, 2013. You did.
My mention of Martin Brodeur had nothing to do with Sarah Palin. It was because you play devils advocate and I mentioned a Devil (of the New Jersey variety) that if you said he was not one of the greatest goalies you would not be a Devil's advocate even while trying to be a devil's advocate!
All of which you understand and are totally aware of, I will admit that I question my judgment by continuing to engage you on this when you are being the Mask that everybody on this blog knows and is aware of, the fly in the ointment, the person who will argue for the sake of arguing, etc.
No matter what I say you will not come at me head on. You will deflect the topic to something else.
I only brought out hockey not because it had anything to do with the topic you tripped me on, but because I was trying to trip you up.....but I knew that it would not succeed anyway.....you would not allow it.... I only thought of hockey when I thought of you as a devils advocate....and my thoughts turned to one of my favorite teams and players.
After all, on the subject you tripped me on, the Six Nations, that I admit I feel guilty you got me on, because of reasons I will not elaborate, the sport is not hockey, but lacrosse.
Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 8:24pm
Mask,
By the way, you say that Mike Huckabee does not get next President Palins plans.
This concerns me how?
I am not concerned about what Mike Huckabee thinks about what next President Palins plans are.
I am, or should be, concerned about what Mike Huckabee suggests about eating and living healthy.
I say "I should be" because I have not paid attention to his recommendations in the past, which is not good.
I got recommendations and I admit I have not followed them. Long before politics were a consideration, I emailed the Governor about his successful efforts to turn his health situation around.
A member of his staff emailed me back and thanked me and mentioned what things he does to eat healthy. I have to admit I have not followed his advice on that subject, to my health detriment.
That is what concerns me about what Mike Huckabee thinks. Sarah Palin will be President on January 20, 2013....it won't involve Mike Huckabee unless Mike Huckabee is her VP. Then it will matter. Maybe then we will have someone who is promoting healthy eating in the Executive Branch who does not do what Mayor Bloomberg of New York does, and just start outlawing what people can and can't eat in a free society.
Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 9:18pm
Lifeout, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Without oppressive government interference from both the left and the right - stop telling me what to eat and what to drive and artificially driving up the cost of living through taxation to satisfy a political agenda.
Posted by pyeatte at 07/06/2009 @ 10:12pm
<i>Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 9:18pm </i>
Do you actually, seriously, honestly want Sarah Palin to be President of this country? For the life of me, I cannot understand why that is a rationally defensible position.
<i>Posted by antisocialist at 07/06/2009 @ 2:17pm </i>
Antisocialist, precisely what do you believe that patriotism is? Does it include criticism of your country when it goes wrong? Since you are a Christian minister, I assume you would maintain that your loyalty is first and foremost to God, meaning that any patriotic loyalty must be secondary.
And on a subject I brought up before...do you really think that all governments are ordained by God? Including the very Roman government which Revelation seems to promise a swift end to? Or is it possible that Paul was mistaken?
Posted by Thrawn at 07/07/2009 @ 12:16am
Patriotism is the tendency of an individual to accept stewardship of the development of his country as a personal responsibility.
Posted by snowball777 at 07/07/2009 @ 12:52am
Good thing.....and very `patriotic', in your own ways....that educated Libs have few(er) kids! Not meant as a slam....matter of demographic facts. You can love each other until you just die out....LOL! Posted by Happy at 07/06/2009 @ 5:48pm |
But we educated liberals also have positive effects on children that aren't spawned from our own loins; not that a con could understand such things as they don't jibe with your infantile universe of irrational self-importance (i.e. you have a hard time figuring out how to weasel a buck out of the deal).
Posted by snowball777 at 07/07/2009 @ 01:00am
Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 9:18pm |
"By the way, you say that Mike Huckabee does not get next President Palins plans.
This concerns me how?"
If the conservative, Christian right can't get The Quitter's wily ways, what makes you think she'll fare any better than she did as a wanna-be veep?
You're gonna have to start carving out a niche in the 82% of the country that think she's a loon to get her electimified, Cherm.
"I am not concerned about what Mike Huckabee thinks about what next President Palins plans are."
And that is why she probably won't make it past Idaho.
Posted by snowball777 at 07/07/2009 @ 01:29am
Patriotism: willingness to defend one's country against its government.
Patriotism: loving one's country while hating its governement.
Posted by godistwaddle at 07/07/2009 @ 05:29am
<SIGH>
Yeah that's it MASK.
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 07/07/2009 @ 06:43am
Do you ever read THE WHOLE sentence, or engage in the very advanced concept of inference, or do you just cherry pick through stuff so you can fill up space here?
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 07/07/2009 @ 06:45am
Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 8:24pm
Well, SJ, your stream of consciousness could dwarf the Missouri.
Regardless, not just Rove and Huckabee now....check with Fred Barnes. He too has now written off Palin's Presidential chances, due to both the nonsensical resignation speech and the resignation itself.
If you can find some conservative pundits who HAVE figured out what Palin's motivations are...or even how they are supposed to HELP her in 3 years....please point me to one, because right now if Karl Rove can't figure it out, I feel I'm in good company (atleast on political strategy...though I may need to take a steel brush to myself later...heheh).
Posted by Mask at 07/07/2009 @ 08:12am
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 07/07/2009 @ 06:45am
What was the "whole sentence", CHIP?
You had a list...which I assume is your list "defining patriotism", given Peter's article.
In it, you included "Knowledge of the ultimate sovereignity of God and his Son Jesus Christ."....which seems to indicate you consider a belief in Christian dogma to be included in the definition of "patriotism".
How ELSE could one read that?!??!??!??
Posted by Mask at 07/07/2009 @ 08:15am
Mask,
I am not sure what the point would be to figure out what next President Palin's motivations were in resigning from Governor of Alaska.
Events will unfold over the next 3 1/2 years. Then things will be what they will be.
I guess I realize that some people try to figure these things out and analyze them and comment on them because they either like being amateur pundits or because they work for a magazine or website where they are being paid to be a pundit.
But this is one of those cases where events will unfold over time that would explain this, and it is probably better to wait and see.
I believe she will be President. Some believe she may be dropping out of public life altogether. Some think she may not seek any further elective office but have a public life as a promoter of Conservatism, that she will become a "pundit" herself.
After all, if this has you stumped, than what is the point of anybody else trying to figure it out?
Posted by sjchermak at 07/07/2009 @ 08:53am
Mask,
I forgot to add that if the question of Sarah Palin has you stumped, then you would not be able to comment much more on that......
And that means you have some free time, time you can devote to getting me the answer as to why you believe WXYZ television in Detroit is biased towards Israel in their news coverage.
Posted by sjchermak at 07/07/2009 @ 08:55am
Posted by sjchermak at 07/07/2009 @ 08:55am If Sarah runs for President, do you feel that it would be good for us to understand what her methods and motives are? On one hand you have honesty and transparency and on the other you have secrecy, manipulation, machination or whim.
"Unpredictable" isn't what I see as a good quality for a President. Maybe a general, but not a President.
As for Patriotism, for some reason that word scares me a little no matter if it is true or false. Not judging anyone else here, just a feeling I have.
Posted by !immutable at 07/07/2009 @ 09:15am
I would define patriotism as looking out for the other guy, not just yourself. This backbone of this country is made up of the little guys, not the big rich guys. In fact, most of the rich guys have little backbone.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 07/07/2009 @ 09:32am
Posted by sjchermak at 07/07/2009 @ 08:55am
Again, not just me, SJCHER...."The Architect" can't see her "plan"....The Incredible Huck....and now Fred Barnes has said ANY Presidential shot is now over because (and I quote)-
"But personal magnetism is only one of the legs, or underpinnings, for a successful race for the Republican nomination. The other two are experience in office and enough knowledge of foreign and domestic issues to talk about them persuasively.
By stepping down, she's cut her experience short: it now consists of a meager two and a half years as governor of a thinly populated state. And, from all appearances, Palin has made little headway on the issue track."
Going to be a little tough after the 2008 "Obama doesn't have enough experience" attacks....to EAT all that in 2012 defending a HALF term governor, isn't it???
Posted by Mask at 07/07/2009 @ 09:37am
Mask,
Except by 2012 we will have been on board with 4 years of Obama socialism, and if next President Palin promotes Conservative principles then her agenda will appeal to a lot of the electorate.
Those principles and the Obama socialism (we will probably still be in an economic recession with liberals clamoring for more stimulus) will be the issues.
Posted by sjchermak at 07/07/2009 @ 11:06am
SJ....what's the "department of law"???
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=8016906&page=1
Posted by Mask at 07/07/2009 @ 11:49am
Mask,
I don't even need to go to your link. Almost certainly, you have a quote or video of Sarah Palin using the words "department of law".
That could be the only reason, given the current discussion, that you would be steering me to that link.
The problem is, I am too busy right now to try to figure that one out. What am I busy on, you may ask?
Busy trying to figure out how Franklin Roosevelt, who was not yet President, talked to the nation via television in 1929 to be frank with the people about the economic problems from the stock market crash.
He of course did do that, because Vice President Joe Biden says so. So it must be so.
But I am still trying to figure out how a man who is not yet President would be talking to the nation via something people did not have in their homes until after World War II.
But Joe Biden says it is so, so it must be so.
Do you agree or disagree with Joe?
Posted by sjchermak at 07/07/2009 @ 12:24pm
Posted by sjchermak at 07/07/2009 @ 12:24pm
LOL....I agree with you SJ.
Joe Biden couldn't ever get elected President (he made several attempts as you recall) and I'll go so far as to say I doubt seriously he'll win as incumbent Veep in 2016....
and neither will Sarah Palin.
BTW, I know Palin CAN become your nominee in 2012....you guys have no problem voting for "war hawks" who never fought in a war (or listening to them on the radio)...
why should you have a problem voting for a QUITTER who proclaims loudly how she's a "fighter"????
Posted by Mask at 07/07/2009 @ 12:55pm
Mask,
There is a possibility that Sarah Palin resigned to begin efforts for a Presidential campaign.
This is one of those "dammed if you do and dammed if you don't" moments for her now.
This is because anytime an incumbent Governor or Senator begins an earnest Presidential campaign (Dem or GOP), they are always criticized for not paying enough attention to their current job.
And the reality in this case is that she would need to begin campaigning now, even if not officially, of course, and this has been true of some presidential candidates in the past, as well.
So even if she had stayed as Governor until 2010 and then just not run for re-election, if she spent any significant amount of time greasing the skids for a presidential bid, she would be criticized for not paying attention to issues in Alaska.
So she can't win, among her critics, no matter what.
The solution to this?
Don't worry about what the critics say.
Problem solved.
Posted by sjchermak at 07/07/2009 @ 1:15pm
"There is a possibility that Sarah Palin resigned to begin efforts for a Presidential campaign."----Posted by sjchermak at 07/07/2009 @ 1:15pm
Tell ya what, SJ, instead of dealing in "possibilities"....do me a favor-
By citing (please don't Cut & Paste) Governor Palin's resignation speech...
tell me 3-4 reasons SHE gave for resigning.
Can you?
Posted by Mask at 07/07/2009 @ 2:30pm
Patriotism in the U.S.: supine submissiveness in the face of stolen elections and the continued government by the plutocrats, of the plutocrats, and for the plutocrats.
The Iranians and Hondurans refuse to act like good Americans...rolling over and presenting their slack bellies and throats to the bankers and insurers.
Posted by godistwaddle at 07/07/2009 @ 4:59pm
<i>Posted by godistwaddle at 07/07/2009 @ 4:59pm </i>
Right. And all those pesky Iranian protestors detracted from the excellent 100%-participation democracy that the most excellent Ahmadinejad stood for. And of course, we're taking swift action against the events in Honduras, right?
Oh also...were 2004 and 2008 stolen? Just curious.
Hmm...no fun when facts don't match one's preconceptions, eh?
Posted by Thrawn at 07/07/2009 @ 5:16pm
Mask,
She did not offer much explanation. She certainly is not going to declare that she is a candidate for President 3 1/4 years before the election.
In any election cycle, people that everybody knows are running or probably running for President do not immediately declare their candadicy that far ahead. Yet many clearly are making moves and doing things to promote themselves.
I am not concerned that she did not give a definitve answer about resigning. I do not feel she owes me one, I only hope and still believe that her goal is to run for President, which she will win if she does.
Some conservative pundits are puzzled but the only people bent out of shape and in a tizzy about this are people that are opposed to her anyway.
Posted by sjchermak at 07/07/2009 @ 6:29pm
Democracy is one thing and patriotism is another. They should not be equated. Mark Twain and other luminaries formed the American Anti-Imperialist League. Patriotic Americans supported imperialism. Twain and his associates were much better human beings than the patriots.
Posted by dovidl at 07/07/2009 @ 8:11pm
<i>Posted by dovidl at 07/07/2009 @ 8:11pm </i>
That seems like a false dichotomy. Many patriotic Americans supported imperialism...and many patriotic Americans opposed it. As is the case now. There's also a difference between patriotism and jingoism; I think jingoism is really what you're referring to here.
Posted by Thrawn at 07/07/2009 @ 8:42pm
"4. Liberals thought Ronald Reagan was stupid.
5. Liberals thought George W. Bush was stupid.
6. Liberals think next President Palin is stupid."
Posted by sjchermak at 07/06/2009 @ 6:22pm
Damn, dude! With those three, I believe that's like five things you have posted that this liberal agrees with. (Although, a few 'very's would help your third point.)
Posted by Malcontent at 07/07/2009 @ 9:08pm
Posted by sjchermak at 07/07/2009 @ 1:15pm |
"There is a possibility that Sarah Palin resigned to begin efforts for a Presidential campaign."
And a likelihood she'll head back to Alaska with ass in hand after being trounced by any of 3 Pug hopefuls.
"This is one of those 'dammed if you do and dammed if you don't' moments for her now."
Damned if she can defend herself against her ethical Blago-spree and damned if she thinks she can win a primary.
"This is because anytime an incumbent Governor or Senator begins an earnest Presidential campaign (Dem or GOP), they are always criticized for not paying enough attention to their current job."
Or paying any attention to the ethics rules in her state.
"And the reality in this case is that she would need to begin campaigning now, even if not officially, of course, and this has been true of some presidential candidates in the past, as well."
But she skipped the "considering the creation of a committee to begin to commence to prepare to start to consider running" step.
"So even if she had stayed as Governor until 2010 and then just not run for re-election, if she spent any significant amount of time greasing the skids for a presidential bid, she would be criticized for not paying attention to issues in Alaska."
And rightfully so, if "greasing" means tending to business on Alaska's dime (go ahead, tell us she's above that...we need the laugh).
"So she can't win, among her critics, no matter what."
So she can't win; full stop.
"The solution to this? Don't worry about what the critics say."
Yeah, that worked out GREAT last time she tried it. Maybe, when they ask her a question on the campaign trail, she can pretend to choke on a pretzel.
Posted by snowball777 at 07/08/2009 @ 12:09am
Mask,
You asked previously (regarding Sarah Palin):
".......SJ....what's the "department of law"???
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=8016906&page=1
Posted by Mask at 07/07/2009 @ 11:49am........"
And I said that I was not going to look that up.
I assumed that this was yet another case were a Palin critic (you, in this case) was claiming Sarah Palin said something stupid.
Certainly at the Federal Government level, the Judical Branch does not call itself a department of law, and most state governments probably have a lengthy bureaucratic name for their legal branches.
But, independent of you and on a Time magazine website, I wound up reading the interview she gave and saw reference to the "department of law".
So I went to the State of Alaska website to see what I could find.
Here it is.
Department of Law 907-465-3600 Administrative Services Attorney General's Office Civil Division Consumer Protection Criminal Division Document Library Environmental Crimes Unit
http://www.state.ak.us/local/akdir1.shtml#dolw
At this point Mask my comment is that if you are concerned about what the Department of Law in the State of Alaska is, why are you asking me?
You have the phone number now, call them and ask them.
Posted by sjchermak at 07/08/2009 @ 03:49am
"I am not concerned that she did not give a definitve answer about resigning."----Posted by sjchermak at 07/07/2009 @ 6:29pm
Pretty much sums up the conservative mind these days, huh?
Posted by Mask at 07/08/2009 @ 08:02am
The Iroquois Confederacy
No strangers to Franklin
We the People...
Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 07/08/2009 @ 3:46pm
Patriotism is naught but a mixture of jingoism, racism, fantasy, idiocy, and a means to protect and preserve the material wealth one has. The last is a most valid concept. The former are not, at least to me. Like all of the general concepts of generic morality, theologically based or not, it is fostered upon us in our youth when our minds are unformed and malleable by those whose minds were so warped in their turn a generation or more ago.
Still, patriotism has a virtue. It is an excellent means to motivate The Great Unwashed to support the agenda of The Always Washed, to support the maintenance of their wealth and power. Been that way a long time. Will be that way a long time more. Enhances stability, it does.
Posted by malrox at 07/08/2009 @ 9:42pm
Posted by malrox at 07/08/2009 @ 9:42pm |
You, like many others here, seem to have mistaken nationalism for patriotism. They are distinct and, at times, mutually exclusive.
Posted by snowball777 at 07/09/2009 @ 10:07am